From nobody Sun Nov 1 22:48:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CE801A00E6; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:48:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.76 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.76 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8BNqZ8ebkmZU; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:48:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E1B51A00DC; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 22:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDJ77298; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 06:48:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.39) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:48:42 +0000 Received: from NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.187]) by nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 14:48:38 +0800 From: Xuxiaohu To: Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xu-sfc-using-mpls-spring-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHQ6uEhwUT+nrZsQk6IpAAbYfyXTp4z7JRggEylwuCAAEs5gIABG47wgAJPYQCABFL7aQ== Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 06:48:37 +0000 Message-ID: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4184E@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> References: <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3DFAF@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com> <1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB3E2EE@NKGEML512-MBS.china.huawei.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.185.102] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4184ENKGEML512MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Cc: "'mpls@ietf.org'" , "mpls-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "'sfc@ietf.org'" , "sfc-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] New Version Notification for draft-xu-sfc-using-mpls-spring-04.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 06:48:49 -0000 --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4184ENKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgVGhvbWFzLA0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQq3 orz+yMs6IFRob21hcyBOYXJ0ZW4gW25hcnRlbkB1cy5pYm0uY29tXQ0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTXE 6jEw1MIzMcjVIDQ6MzMNCsrVvP7IyzogWHV4aWFvaHUNCrOty806ICdzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcnOyBz ZmMtY2hhaXJzQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnOyAnbXBsc0BpZXRmLm9yZyc7IG1wbHMtY2hhaXJzQHRv b2xzLmlldGYub3JnDQrW98ziOiBSZTogTmV3IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFm dC14dS1zZmMtdXNpbmctbXBscy1zcHJpbmctMDQudHh0DQoNCj4gQWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBm b2xsb3dpbmcgc3RhdGVtZW50IHF1b3RlZCBmcm9tIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IFNGQyBjaGFydGVyOg0K Pg0KPiAiLi4uIFRoZSBXRyB3aWxsIGV4YW1pbmUgZXhpc3RpbmcgaWRlbnRpZmllciBzY2hlbWVz LA0KPiAgIGlmIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgbmVlZCBmb3Igc3VjaCBpZGVudGlmaWVycyBpbiB0aGUgY29u dGV4dCBvZiB0aGUgR2VuZXJpYyBTRkMNCj4gICBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uLCBiZWZvcmUgZGVmaW5p bmcgYW55IG5ldyBpZGVudGlmaWVyIHNjaGVtZS4NCj4gLi4uIg0KPg0KPiBJdCBzZWVtcyB0aGF0 IHRoaXMgTVBMUy1TUFJJTkctYmFzZWQgU0ZDIGVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gc2NoZW1lIHNob3VsZCBi ZQ0KPiByZWxldmFudCB0byB0aGUgU0ZDIFdHLiBBdCBsZWFzdCwgaXQgY291bGQgYmUgaW52ZXN0 aWdhdGVkIGFzIGEgbGlnaHQtd2VpZ2h0DQo+IFNGQyBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIGFwcHJvYWNoIChm cm9tIHRoZSBhc3BlY3Qgb2YgcmVkdWNpbmcgYW5kIGV2ZW4gYXZvaWRpbmcgYW55DQo+IGltcGFj dCBvbiB0aGUgZGF0YSBwbGFuZSkuDQoNClRoZSBjaGFydGVyIGFsc28gc2F5czoNCg0KICAgMy4g R2VuZXJpYyBTRkMgRW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbjogVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCB3aWxsIGRlc2NyaWJlIGEg c2luZ2xlDQogICAgICBzZXJ2aWNlLWxldmVsIGRhdGEgcGxhbmUgZW5jYXBzdWxhdGlvbiBmb3Jt YXQgdGhhdDoNCg0KSSB3YW50IHRvIGVtcGhhc2l6ZSB0aGUgdGVybSAiYSBzaW5nbGUgLi4uIGVu Y2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gZm9ybWF0IiBJdA0KaGFzIGJlZW4gbXkgdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyB0aGF0IHRo ZSBpbnRlbnRpb24gb2YgdGhpcyBXRyBmcm9tIHRoZQ0KYmVnaW5uaW5nIHdhcyB0byBwcm9kdWNl IG9uZSBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uLCBub3QgbXVsdGlwbGUgb25lcy4NCg0KW1hpYW9odV0gTXkgdW5k ZXJzdGFuZGluZyBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBpbnRlbnRpb24gb2YgdGhpcyBXRyBmcm9tIHRoZQ0KYmVn aW5uaW5nIHdhcyB0byBwcm9kdWNlIG9uZSBlbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uIElGIE5FRURFRC4gVGhhdCcg cyB3aHkgdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyB0ZXh0IGlzIGNvbnRhaW5lZCBpbiB0aGUgY2hhcnRlcjoNCg0K ICIuLi4gVGhlIFdHIHdpbGwgZXhhbWluZSBleGlzdGluZyBpZGVudGlmaWVyIHNjaGVtZXMsDQpp ZiB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIG5lZWQgZm9yIHN1Y2ggaWRlbnRpZmllcnMgaW4gdGhlIGNvbnRleHQgb2Yg dGhlIEdlbmVyaWMgU0ZDDQplbmNhcHN1bGF0aW9uLCBiZWZvcmUgZGVmaW5pbmcgYW55IG5ldyBp ZGVudGlmaWVyIHNjaGVtZS4uLiINCg0KDQpJIHRoaW5rIGl0IGhhcyBiZWVuIGNsZWFyIGZvciBz b21lIHRpbWUgYWxyZWFkeSB0aGF0IHRoZSBXRyBoYXMNCnNlbGVjdGVkIHRoZSBOU0ggZG9jdW1l bnQgYXMgaXRzIGRlc2lyZWQgYXBwcm9hY2guDQoNCltYaWFvaHVdIEkgd29uZGVyIHdoZXRoZXIg dGhlIHdvcmsgb2YgZXhhbWluaW5nIGV4aXN0aW5nIGlkZW50aWZpZXIgc2NoZW1lcyBhcyBtZW50 aW9uZWQgaW4gdGhlIGNoYXJ0ZXIgYmVlbiBmaW5pc2hlZCBvciB0aGUgV0cgbm93IGJlbGlldmUg dGhhdCB3b3JrIGlzIG5vdCBuZWNjZXNzYXJ5IGFueW1vcmU/DQoNCg0KDQpCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMs DQoNClhpYW9odQ0KDQpBcmUgeW91IHN1Z2dlc3RpbmcgdGhhdCB0aGUgV0cgdGFrZSBvbiB0aGlz IGRvY3VtZW50IGFzIGFuIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwNCmVuY2Fwc3VsYXRpb24gZm9yIFNGQz8gSSBkbyBu b3QgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBpcyBjb25zaXN0ZW50IHdpdGggdGhlDQppbnRlbnQgb2YgdGhlIGNoYXJ0 ZXIuIEFsc28sIG15IHJlYWQgb2YgdGhlIG92ZXJhbGwgbGlzdCBkaXNjdXNzaW9uDQp3aXRoIHJl c3BlY3QgdG8gdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBXRyBoYXMgbm90IHNob3duIGEgc3Ry b25nDQppbnRlcmVzdCBpbiB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IG5vciBpbmRpY2F0ZWQgYSBjb21wZWxsaW5n IG5lZWQgZm9yIGl0Lg0KDQpJZiB0aGUgV0cgZGlzYWdyZWVzIHdpdGggdGhpcyBhc3Nlc3NtZW50 LCBJIGV4cGVjdCBmb2xrIHdvdWxkIHNwZWFrDQp1cC4NCg0KVGhvbWFzDQo= --_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4184ENKGEML512MBSchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Thomas,

________________________________________
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Thomas Narten [narten@us.ibm.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2015=C4=EA10=D4=C231=C8=D5 4:33
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Xuxiaohu
=B3=AD=CB=CD: 'sfc@ietf.org'; sfc-chairs@tools.ietf.org; 'mpls@ietf.org'; m= pls-chairs@tools.ietf.org
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: New Version Notification for draft-xu-sfc-using-mpls-spri= ng-04.txt

> According to the following statement quoted from the current SFC chart= er:
>
> "... The WG will examine existing identifier schemes,
>   if there is a need for such identifiers in the context of = the Generic SFC
>   encapsulation, before defining any new identifier scheme.<= br> > ..."
>
> It seems that this MPLS-SPRING-based SFC encapsulation scheme should b= e
> relevant to the SFC WG. At least, it could be investigated as a light-= weight
> SFC encapsulation approach (from the aspect of reducing and even avoid= ing any
> impact on the data plane).

The charter also says:

   3. Generic SFC Encapsulation: This document will describe a si= ngle
      service-level data plane encapsulation forma= t that:

I want to emphasize the term "a single ... encapsulation format" = It
has been my understanding that the intention of this WG from the
beginning was to produce one encapsulation, not multiple ones.

[Xiaohu] My understanding is that the intention of this WG from the
beginning was to produce one encapsulation IF NEEDED. That' s why the follo= wing text is contained in the charter:

 "... The WG will examine existing identifier schemes,
if there is a need for such identifiers in the context of the Generic SFC encapsulation, before defining any new identifier scheme..."


I think it has been clear for some time already that the WG has
selected the NSH document as its desired approach.

[Xiaohu] I wonder whether the work of examining existing ident= ifier schemes as mentioned in the charter been finished or the WG now belie= ve that work is not neccessary anymore?

 

Best regards,

Xiaohu


Are you suggesting that the WG take on this document as an additional
encapsulation for SFC? I do not think that is consistent with the
intent of the charter. Also, my read of the overall list discussion
with respect to this document is that the WG has not shown a strong
interest in this document nor indicated a compelling need for it.

If the WG disagrees with this assessment, I expect folk would speak
up.

Thomas

--_000_1FEE3F8F5CCDE64C9A8E8F4AD27C19EE0CB4184ENKGEML512MBSchi_-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 11:06:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308BB1B2A45 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:06:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRVyJ59UO7mE for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72B0C1B2A42 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:06:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3855; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446491188; x=1447700788; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=eJGYN8AmFfEOHHu9IF9I7LsPERwHC4E2iXsBZQK3y8k=; b=lYRBU/Ab4ybAclFLPL69UDEqrhy5ROTM7MCzj9Uq90oBLAyCXvjMF/sF BcO5/KKluOF/xgCTIPkrJgWV1JhedVzp4gKspEcrcknst9EaPOc+q4wh9 Zzt4oXMChXCD69vYS31NcFm+tv6BMSuuSBneulvyqn05iI0VgiJ3R0y7E I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D1AQAyszdW/4ENJK1egztTb79FAQ2BWhcMhXYCgTs4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEBAwEBAQE3NAsFCwIBCBIGHhAnCxcOAgQOBQkSiA0IDcFNAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGIZ3ghCCboRcg1CBFAWSZoNdAYUciAiBWUiDd5YhAR8BAUKEBHIBhX0BAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,236,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="43246441" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Nov 2015 19:06:27 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (xch-rcd-007.cisco.com [173.37.102.17]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA2J6Rx0020359 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:06:27 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (173.37.102.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 13:06:26 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 13:06:26 -0600 From: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" To: Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Agenda for Yokohoma Thread-Index: AQHREbvLPKJexxAMg0+Ng/fkiLt8rp6JH62+ Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 19:06:26 +0000 Message-ID: <12BA7054-08EA-4BFE-B7B3-6F1E80497741@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Agenda for Yokohoma X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 19:06:30 -0000 Dear WG: Just a quick reminder that the chairs need all presentations for this weeks= meeting no later than COB *today*. Thank you! Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 28, 2015, at 4:04 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: >=20 > The agenda for Yokohama is been posted at the usual places. E.g., >=20 > Sfc Status Pages > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/agenda >=20 > I've included the current contents below. >=20 > If you are a presenter please plan to send Jim & I slides no later > than Monday 11/2 so that we have time to review and post prior to the > meeting. >=20 > Thomas & Jim >=20 >=20 > IETF-94 sfc agenda > Session 2015-11-05 0900-1130: Room 502 - Audio stream - sfc chatroom >=20 > Agenda >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > IETF94 Yokohama SFC Agenda > Total time: 2.5 hours >=20 > 00:00 Introduction (WG-chairs) - [5 minutes] > Agenda bashing, note-well, (WG-chairs) - [5 minutes] >=20 > 00:05 SFC Security Requirements (Presenter + open-mic) - [25 min= utes] >=20 > - SFC Environment Security Requirements (Daniel Migault)= - [15 minutes] > - http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-mglt-sfc-security= -environment-req-00.txt >=20 > - SFC Security Requirements Q&A (open-mic) - [10 minutes= ] >=20 >=20 > 00:30 SFC Use Cases (Presenters + open-mic) - [40 minutes] >=20 > - SFC Use Cases in Mobile Networks (Jeff Napper) - [10 m= inutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sf= c-use-case-mobility/ >=20 > - SFC Use Cases for Network Security (Eric Wang) - [10 m= inutes] > - https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wan= g-sfc-ns-use-cases-00.txt >=20 > - SFC Use Cases in Broadband (Wei Meng) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-meng-sf= c-broadband-usecases/ >=20 > - SFC Use Cases Q&A (open-mic) - [10 minutes] >=20 >=20 > 01:10 SFC Architecture Items (Presenters + open-mic) - [50 Minut= es] >=20 > - UDP Overlay Transport For Network Service Header (Sure= ndra Kumar) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumar-s= fc-nsh-udp-transport/ >=20 > - Map Assisted SFC Proxy using LISP (Albert Cabellos) - = [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cabello= s-sfc-map-assisted-proxy/ >=20 > - Packet Generation in Service Function Chains (Reinaldo= Penno) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-penno-s= fc-packet/ >=20 > - Hierarchical Service Function Chaining (Dave Dolson) -= [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dolson-= sfc-hierarchical/ >=20 > - SFC Architecture Items Q&A (open-mic) - [10 minutes] >=20 > 02:00 SFC Miscellaneous (Presenters + open-mic) - [25 minutes] >=20 > - SFC Trace Issue Analysis & Solutions (Lei Zhu) - [10 m= inutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yang-sf= c-trace-issue-analysis/ >=20 > - SFC: Subscriber & Host Identification Considerations (= TBD) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sarikay= a-sfc-hostid-serviceheader/ >=20 > - SFC Miscellaneous Q&A (open-mic) - [5 minutes] >=20 >=20 > 02:25 Closing (WG-chairs) - [5 minutes] >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Tue Nov 3 15:30:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765ED1B35F3 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:30:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ubBW5yxOwLsm for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98CB01B30D7 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B751C0095 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (122x210x83x163.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp [122.210.83.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 043CF1C01B0 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:30:44 -0800 (PST) To: "sfc@ietf.org" From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <563943A2.7020704@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 18:30:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Meeting preparation X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 23:30:46 -0000 It would be helpful if someone would offer to take minutes for the SFC session. If no one does, we will have to delay the start of the meeting until we have a note taker. Please contact Carlos and me (who are standing in for the WG chairs) if you are willing to help us in this regard. Thank you, Joel From nobody Tue Nov 3 22:52:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8621ACF5E for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:52:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XKgvDoE4UA84 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [4.31.198.40]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5931F1ACF54 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F36CF1E5A28 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:52:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kM51BpYAFLKB for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from t20010c4000003024c477d45ae53775ca.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp (t20010c4000003024c477d45ae53775ca.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp [IPv6:2001:c40:0:3024:c477:d45a:e537:75ca]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 9B5E01E5A1E for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:52:03 -0800 (PST) From: Alexa Morris Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:52:41 -0800 Message-Id: <2E6E3DA2-0C80-4034-BB2E-A3A54FF65CF2@amsl.com> To: sfc@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) Sendlaterdate: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:52:41 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Queue for Remote SFC Attendees X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 06:52:43 -0000 If you are planning to participate in the SFC session here at IETF 94 = Thursday =97 either locally in Yokohama or as a remote participant =97 = we want to make sure that you are aware that the IETF is providing = remote participants with a fairly new way to ask questions or make = comments. In addition to using the Jabber room, for the SFC session = there is also the opportunity for remote participants to enter a virtual = queue and ask questions directly into the meeting room.=20 This experimental queue was used in several sessions at IETF 92 and IETF = 93, so you may have already seen it in action. There will be two queues = for the SFC session =97 a virtual queue and an actual (in-room) queue. = Remote attendees will log into the Meetecho platform and will have a = virtual mic line that they can enter if they have a question or comment. = In-room participants will continue to use normal mic lines.=20 Instructions for remote participants are at = http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Remote_Participation.=20 Information on how to join the Meetecho session is at = http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/. Verify that you are WebRTC compliant (required to use the virtual queue) = by performing a self-test here: = http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Self_Test.=20 Regards, Alexa ---------- Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 Email: amorris@amsl.com Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com From nobody Wed Nov 4 17:27:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3230F1B35C1 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:27:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ftzwaEW3leY3 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E16D1B35BF for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:27:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=940; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446686838; x=1447896438; h=to:from:subject:message-id:date:mime-version: content-transfer-encoding; bh=n/7+vNvLpWhVTJTedoCz4HNZvxnXckfphJInC4/QCFI=; b=VNW/8IxLD7dBYzZKcpC3JfFH8huguHJ4l1C9/QPBzIOF7tn/Nfzr8qiX QN7hPEPbuBLXeEdcewTiBKF4XgalWJJ/7ltwwkff6kJ9W/pCQcRYmFbUT /Fv56rJfhi6Zk7t5M9azGrZMOr7eE47RyHoGPEgUPK81hirLFHUda1VzJ M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AYAgAJsDpW/4sNJK1egzu/NgENgV6GCIFMOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqEXxVANgIFFgsCCwMCAQIBWAgBAYgqoR6PcJB8LYEBhVOJM3KCToFDBY4RiDeNI4kbkyYfAQFChCIghB+BSQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,245,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="41935315" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 01:27:17 +0000 Received: from [10.24.137.99] ([10.24.137.99]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA51RGeY018048 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:27:16 GMT To: sfc@ietf.org From: Joe Clarke Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. Message-ID: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:27:15 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:27:19 -0000 I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requirements. It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existing metadata unless they could provide proper authn. Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in general (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), it uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to what the limit might be. Joe From nobody Wed Nov 4 17:38:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2581B35A0 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:38:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ePJrOQZWI7mR for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D566D1B34E4 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C37A7240954 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from dhcp-25-165.meeting.ietf94.jp (dhcp-25-165.meeting.ietf94.jp [133.93.25.165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 58DB2240C11 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) To: sfc@ietf.org References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 20:37:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:38:44 -0000 From where I sit, and with the deploymenbts I expect, requiring authentication of SFC NSH or of the whole packet seems excessive. Given that the NSH header metadata is going to be modified at many service functions, this means that SF have to be able to generate the authentication. And there is a very challenging quesiton as to who would be expected to do the work of validating the authentication? Every Service Function? So I am doubtful of REQ-14 mandating authentication within the SFC space. When we have inter-domain links, authentication and encryption become relevant. I understand that hard-shell / weak innards security is questionable. But adding significant overhead in both sapce and time seems highly questionable. Yours, Joel On 11/4/15 8:27 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: > I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on > draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. > > In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requirements. > It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are > problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing > within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where > REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. > > If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very > important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are > mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existing > metadata unless they could provide proper authn. > > Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in general > (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), it > uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to what > the limit might be. > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Wed Nov 4 17:54:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 010F61A883F for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:54:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cbuXGYFrnZFR for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:54:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22d.google.com (mail-pa0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0B801B366D for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by pasz6 with SMTP id z6so72724676pas.2 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:54:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=YdlEg2g6VoNKgL5/5O6QQ8ndaK2lWsGjFuPkKVzSXgo=; b=qhaCGxfpdDCC16OSeJl1n9KYq/f3ktuvXU5p4KAIjq8YYNC2NxZn86QyRJWGt4PV3z 25qy+ZDxPrMLtVgE6LrVTcz4iKLDKA/iC+w0QsIf/9gRHGC+pMKu5wbS7iKcj+5eGsdR Eq/MemePGmVE64n4yxFXj6l4Ygskh94k6RzrPofY7bqW0Q+zUOguUVz/u9C0pSxnCrcq f4mH2T5tuwnQYoN8B1oVa5u/ZMlG7zndtDp45IQD7224kqJsbSQmymJXVE8oWseNVae0 HUKm6BWs0PIraWA7L9mlhHxa65wdHGV/RgsWb6/Uw6BY+zwqN/BPAKxQtvo44hXRWQHP f7JQ== X-Received: by 10.66.227.1 with SMTP id rw1mr6101000pac.35.1446688452273; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:54:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:1010:b05e:a1d1:f4f6:ca59:fbf7:6fae? ([2600:1010:b05e:a1d1:f4f6:ca59:fbf7:6fae]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ve8sm4436459pbc.48.2015.11.04.17.54.10 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 17:54:11 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Sharon X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13B143) In-Reply-To: <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 17:54:09 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:54:17 -0000 This is part of the motivation for the draft Alberto presented stripping NSH= before SFs, keeping attack surface same as "normal" networking.=20 However stripping context while keeping SFC connectionless requires some map= -assistance so packets can show up anywhere and chains can fork physically a= nd logically. --szb > On Nov 4, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > =46rom where I sit, and with the deploymenbts I expect, requiring authenti= cation of SFC NSH or of the whole packet seems excessive. Given that the NS= H header metadata is going to be modified at many service functions, this me= ans that SF have to be able to generate the authentication. >=20 > And there is a very challenging quesiton as to who would be expected to do= the work of validating the authentication? Every Service Function? >=20 > So I am doubtful of REQ-14 mandating authentication within the SFC space. = When we have inter-domain links, authentication and encryption become relev= ant. > I understand that hard-shell / weak innards security is questionable. But a= dding significant overhead in both sapce and time seems highly questionable.= >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 >> On 11/4/15 8:27 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: >> I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on >> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. >>=20 >> In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requirements. >> It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are >> problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing >> within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where >> REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. >>=20 >> If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very >> important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are >> mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existing >> metadata unless they could provide proper authn. >>=20 >> Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in general >> (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), it >> uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to what >> the limit might be. >>=20 >> Joe >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Wed Nov 4 18:03:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E93C1B36B7 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:03:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lrz6QGMAh9Nj for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:03:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 163AD1B36D6 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 18:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BZY09389; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:03:34 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.38) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:03:33 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.75]) by nkgeml407-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 10:03:25 +0800 From: "Songhaibin (A)" To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Map-Assisted SFC Proxy using LISP Thread-Index: AdEXbi5kBRq8c4XcS3K4te8cyDufew== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:03:24 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.187.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E33E01DFD5BEA24B9F3F18671078951F653A7C3Ankgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.563AB8F6.00A4, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.75, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: efe51565d5c8f783d2d5ed51eea12dfa Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Map-Assisted SFC Proxy using LISP X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:03:39 -0000 --_000_E33E01DFD5BEA24B9F3F18671078951F653A7C3Ankgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Legacy service function support is obviously important in the SFC WG. I wou= ld like to request the authors of this draft to read draft-song-sfc-legacy-= sf-mapping. I think there is a lot of overlapping between these two drafts. BR, -Haibin --_000_E33E01DFD5BEA24B9F3F18671078951F653A7C3Ankgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Legacy service function support= is obviously important in the SFC WG. I would like to request the authors = of this draft to read draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping. I think there is a lot of overlapping between these two drafts.

 

BR,=

-Haibin

--_000_E33E01DFD5BEA24B9F3F18671078951F653A7C3Ankgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 22:59:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE95F1B3AFA for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:59:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iX4nXBi57ZJF for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8CF61B3AF2 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:59:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BZY29571; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 06:59:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.130) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:59:31 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:59:22 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AdEXl754lhI5rgRLTVue7vT08dxMOg== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:59:22 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572077E6@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.186.9] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572077E6dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.563AFE55.0017, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 0d7ffcfdc27b9529ea4ea7848b8e9f8d Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 06:59:37 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572077E6dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that n= sh can use for the transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. T= he gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional securi= ty capability. Lucy --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572077E6dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvw= g-gre-in-udp-08) that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register = an Ethertype for nsh. The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs= with additional security capability.

 

Lucy

--_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572077E6dfweml701chm_-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 23:10:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DF41A6F71 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:10:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TtmCEmev3ZJ2 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:10:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B05371B3B27 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:10:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4893; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446707437; x=1447917037; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=9//FiHxao3x/diP268Qfrp8VK5r/ulebRhC16jfvj0s=; b=mdyOQaPu1BZeOKAI6tOgTbOtRHKL4i3Uor3XCguN4RUSKVGUMVx1AiX4 QVaKSdvfolLP/TsJ5axOBEaV7+DB6CPB4h/OHZy9/mfKcUtFyy7CQd5A/ 7qTq5RRX5d2Uwp2SF3KSPeGeEVkVAhU8czAgBDLV/QdhBeQBRhbZ0fTOa Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D8AQDt/zpW/49dJa1egm5NU28GvWkBDYFehhKBNjgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDUBAgQtXgEIEQMBAig5FAkKBAESiC7CCgEBAQEBBQEBAQEBAR2LUoR7hD0FjVSIdAGNIpxAAR8BAUKEBHKEGIEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,246,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="205440941" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2015 07:10:36 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (xch-rtp-008.cisco.com [64.101.220.148]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA57Aais030322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:10:36 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-007.cisco.com (64.101.220.147) by XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (64.101.220.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:10:35 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-007.cisco.com ([64.101.220.147]) by XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com ([64.101.220.147]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:10:34 -0500 From: "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" To: Lucy yong , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO6w== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:10:34 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.70.232.166] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D2612F72171FE3kreegerciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:10:42 -0000 --_000_D2612F72171FE3kreegerciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lucy, One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid unneces= sary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in between does not s= eem to add any additional benefit that I can see - only additional overhead= . Thanks, Larry From: sfc > on behalf of = Lucy yong > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM To: "sfc@ietf.org" > Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that n= sh can use for the transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. T= he gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional securi= ty capability. Lucy --_000_D2612F72171FE3kreegerciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <819C12A05ABC7A42AE7208215520D36C@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Lucy,

One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid un= necessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header in between = does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see – only add= itional overhead.

Thanks, Larry

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong <= lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 a= t 11:59 PM
To: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.= org>
Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kum= ar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvw= g-gre-in-udp-08) that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register = an Ethertype for nsh. The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs= with additional security capability.

 

Lucy

--_000_D2612F72171FE3kreegerciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 23:19:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 606EC1B3B45 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:19:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1SzbtUQRg8TH for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:19:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0b-0016f401.pphosted.com (mx0b-0016f401.pphosted.com [67.231.156.173]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEE2E1B3B49 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:19:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0045851.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-0016f401.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id tA57FHSL024496; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:18:20 -0800 Received: from il-exch01.marvell.com ([199.203.130.101]) by mx0b-0016f401.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 1xyx878jrc-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 23:18:20 -0800 Received: from IL-EXCH01.marvell.com (10.4.102.220) by IL-EXCH01.marvell.com (10.4.102.220) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1044.25; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:18:13 +0200 Received: from IL-EXCH01.marvell.com ([fe80::41:1c9f:8611:3a4a]) by IL-EXCH01.marvell.com ([fe80::41:1c9f:8611:3a4a%20]) with mapi id 15.00.1044.021; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:18:13 +0200 From: David Melman To: "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , Lucy yong , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656NA6Xg Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:18:13 +0000 Message-ID: <64b04ef6b62f4f1eb1cdae645d172620@IL-EXCH01.marvell.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.94.250.30] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_64b04ef6b62f4f1eb1cdae645d172620ILEXCH01marvellcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2015-11-05_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=inbound_notspam policy=inbound score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1507310000 definitions=main-1511050126 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:19:22 -0000 --_000_64b04ef6b62f4f1eb1cdae645d172620ILEXCH01marvellcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1, agree with Larry. NSH directly over UDP is lightweight and easily sup= ported today. David Melman From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger= ) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 9:11 AM To: Lucy yong; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Lucy, One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid unneces= sary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in between does not s= eem to add any additional benefit that I can see - only additional overhead= . Thanks, Larry From: sfc > on behalf of = Lucy yong > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM To: "sfc@ietf.org" > Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that n= sh can use for the transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. T= he gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional securi= ty capability. Lucy --_000_64b04ef6b62f4f1eb1cdae645d172620ILEXCH01marvellcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1, agree with Lar= ry.   NSH directly over UDP is lightweight and easily supported t= oday.

 

David Melman

From: sfc [mai= lto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 9:11 AM
To: Lucy yong; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

Hi Lucy= ,

&n= bsp;

One of = the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid unnecessary ov= erhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header in between does not see= m to add any additional benefit that I can see – only additional overhead.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,= Larry

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
To: "sfc@ietf.org" <= ;sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

&n= bsp;

There is a gre/udp tunne= l transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that nsh can use for the trans= port; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. The gre/udp transport pro= vides all features nsh needs with additional security capability.

 =

Lucy

--_000_64b04ef6b62f4f1eb1cdae645d172620ILEXCH01marvellcom_-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 23:33:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E72A91B3B4F for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:32:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ztOjFLeZSWiL for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDA8F1B3B6F for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:32:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkcl124 with SMTP id l124so29503828qkc.3 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 23:32:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:reply-to:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=g0x1zYNbeMmMERZp/REx96fmWnl4LGfK2zWanuATX3U=; b=HBWf4+pW3uDLt2YkZugNxugnCmXikR8ZVFBbtVNf8ky6HDif5GKZ0zpJcBDhj0o+8+ yHN4tj0p32Rlvsnqo619nZ9ntBJqzYO3XR4+KM0aX3Y2aTHqe8z6gHz3HfYrFeQf7Zo6 YmLUBVvNua3naPogijj5FT0RdNYShKDVmXeQWkGjEumB1fjMTOFbGvW2uNzP6zCeY4pM j0dE/KPiZuHnUAEnfHcfcWF1mne7By0hg7OO/VcbI6Y+i1Gq1cbpAczx41r+Kb4/Jeou aN8VKT/z2j8ZiD+jnGaHm9RB1aKxN/9ltdepeFKwJq9tSwEZ/XE04eMyuKCPaLGgLoyF LXNw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.55.49.197 with SMTP id x188mr5395603qkx.45.1446708773949; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 23:32:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.55.148.68 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:32:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:32:53 -0600 Message-ID: From: Behcet Sarikaya To: "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , Lucy yong Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: sarikaya@ieee.org List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:32:59 -0000 On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) wrote: > Hi Lucy, > > One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid > unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in between d= oes > not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =E2=80=93 only addi= tional > overhead. > The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. Behcet > Thanks, Larry > > From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong > > Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM > To: "sfc@ietf.org" > Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that > nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh= . > The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional > security capability. > > > > Lucy > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Wed Nov 4 23:45:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66631B3BA4 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:44:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wKUEP5IxwbMN for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B3091B3BA1 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:44:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1672; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446709497; x=1447919097; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=U1NToBp+xM5PF7TfTCiT98pakm+Ap/WfsqlWAoij190=; b=Cxa1TmwhODQRN1akF5WZWX2rVyuPltg7VlPZEtDKOU9ExWHWz02nR/q9 cdFrt1d3lh01dXvYdNyZXHXg44HIDMw3OpqX9U3GG1k8pG5yBX0Ibxpit l9+j1QE0gaqMM3nwxz2UJBLvyihmeCkQSRANFZXAUV7kfVcowmSLuNqEu s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D9AQDgBztW/4QNJK1egztTbwa9agENgV4XCoVxAoE0OBQBAQEBAQEBfwuENQEBAQQBAQFrCxACAQgRAwECAS4hBgsdCAIEDgWIGQMSDb0eDYQ8AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASLUoJTggaEXwWNVIh0AYsugXSBWpMVg2CDcQEfAQFChARyhBiBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,246,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="47815037" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2015 07:44:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (xch-rtp-007.cisco.com [64.101.220.147]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA57iu4H013375 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:44:56 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-007.cisco.com (64.101.220.147) by XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (64.101.220.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:44:55 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-007.cisco.com ([64.101.220.147]) by XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com ([64.101.220.147]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 02:44:55 -0500 From: "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" To: "sarikaya@ieee.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656NXPyAgACJkgA= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:44:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.70.232.166] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:44:59 -0000 Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) > wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >> unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in between >>does >> not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD only additiona= l >> overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong >> >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that >> nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an Ethertype for >>nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >> security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> From nobody Thu Nov 5 01:15:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0979E1A8F38 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:15:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 35m-Atj593nT for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:15:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E19F11A8A57 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDR77009; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 09:15:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:15:48 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml704-chm ([10.193.5.141]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:15:45 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , "sarikaya@ieee.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nj0aAgAADXYD//5JgsA== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:15:44 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.185.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.563B1E45.0144, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 12c4e40d24481eaab7e09d45ac4d8eb4 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 09:15:56 -0000 Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.=20 Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger= ) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)=20 > wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid =20 >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in=20 >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD=20 >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong=20 >> >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08)=20 >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an=20 >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional =20 >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 5 01:18:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB94E1A1A69 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bcBwMky14PQH for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x230.google.com (mail-oi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0C5D1A01F4 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by oifu63 with SMTP id u63so43814226oif.2 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:18:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=5JPHlSus6yu1nyM2n6UPR0lorP/YUH7sZ+Y4YEDki9k=; b=HZTIwUP5Zd8MHHjUn7QbpXiiSOfvb7hAACMjczXNFzM0IV5jjcre8x+TiBltlvlXn7 jtoJ45LSzAg6h5bjRbM3Pygj1j3Hz6izI5WvMyr2UDbUpeH3+NsexogPL5LFL9aXk0ei sOuqtgzvAd7u/BGHrVW1o9YjzBe/Cq73859ocdQuZIlIeTatA3pL/t8eoNBl/NOvy4ms p06iCJ9Qnm5vy8ABdzTPKSUqDj+2ctRc51iOkVcsKRKfAzZU8YGKe5wuFoSzNjLDH3so yd3dBH/TXU6u9q2adUXghDCi2bccjl7H5NG9KbTfbHLlft3Sdsn9rAKKDQyiVo7FYKc6 V4ww== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.198.213 with SMTP id w204mr3659056oif.72.1446715121068; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.60.6.132 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:18:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:18:40 -0500 Message-ID: From: Alia Atlas To: Lucy yong Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113523b8e21a640523c79c33 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 09:18:43 -0000 --001a113523b8e21a640523c79c33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ethertype. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong wrote: > Hi Larry, > > The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. > > Thanks, > Lucy > > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger > (kreeger) > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM > To: sarikaya@ieee.org > Cc: sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > Hi Behcet, > > I=C2=B9m not sure I=C2=B9m following what your point is. It is true that= VXLAN-GPE > also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying N= SH > directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option that= I > had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP. > This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my opini= on > doesn=C2=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. > > Thanks, Larry > > On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: > > >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) > > wrote: > >> Hi Lucy, > >> > >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid > >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in > >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =C2= =AD > >>only additional overhead. > >> > > > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > > > >Behcet > >> Thanks, Larry > >> > >> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong > >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM > >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > >> > >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) > >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an > >>Ethertype for nsh. > >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional > >>security capability. > >> > >> > >> > >> Lucy > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sfc mailing list > >> sfc@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > >> > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > --001a113523b8e21a640523c79c33 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<no-hats>
I think that getting a UDP port is a l= ot more straightforward than an Ethertype.
Not having extra bytes= is also an advantage.

Regards,
Alia=C2= =A0
</no-hats>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <luc= y.yong@huawei.com> wrote:
H= i Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM<= br> To: sarikaya@ieee.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

Hi Behcet,

I=C2=B9m not sure I=C2=B9m following what your point is.=C2=A0 It is true t= hat VXLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed.= =C2=A0 Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.=C2=A0 Lucy broug= ht up a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to ca= rry NSH in GRE over UDP.=C2=A0 This adds a GRE header in between the UDP he= ader and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=C2=B9t bring any benefits - just more= overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.=C2=A0 Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does=C2=A0 not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see =C2=AD
>>only additional=C2=A0 overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that=C2=A0 nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

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--001a113523b8e21a640523c79c33-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 01:43:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF3F1A9069 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:43:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6PXZQZQaKe5R for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:43:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCAF31A9079 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDR81435; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 09:43:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.130) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:42:56 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:42:47 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nj0aAgAADXYD//5JgsIAAh9IA//99fpA= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:42:46 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207973@dfweml701-chm> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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d="scan'208,217";a="204734577" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2015 10:11:47 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-006.cisco.com (xch-aln-006.cisco.com [173.36.7.16]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA5ABlQk001351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 10:11:47 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-ALN-006.cisco.com (173.36.7.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:11:46 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 04:11:46 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: Alia Atlas , Lucy yong Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nbb+AgAADXYCAABlgAIAAANEA//+qQpU= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 10:11:46 +0000 Message-ID: <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph1446718008074emailandroidcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 10:11:50 -0000 --_000_4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph1446718008074emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also ha= ve obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. Lucy, I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encaps= ulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formula= ting and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. Regard, Surendra. Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Alia Atlas Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , sfc@i= etf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ether= type. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I^1m not sure I^1m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-GPE= also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying NS= H directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option that= I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP= . This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my opin= ion doesn^1t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" > wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see=20 >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc > on behalf = of Lucy yong >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph1446718008074emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I al= so have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia.

Lucy,
I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested e= ncapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in fo= rmulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path.

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do.

Regard,
Surendra.



Sent from a thumb typed device.


-------- Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@cisc= o.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

<no-hats>
I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an = Ethertype.
Not having extra bytes is also an advantage.

Regards,
Alia 
</no-hats>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@hua= wei.com> wrote:
Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.= org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM<= br> To: sarikaya@ieee.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
Hi Behcet,

I¹m not sure I¹m following what your point is.  It is true t= hat VXLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed.=   Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy broug= ht up a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in be= tween the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn¹t bring any bene= fits - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does  not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see ­
>>only additional  overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that  nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

--_000_4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph1446718008074emailandroidcom_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 05:07:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648581B2AE3 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:07:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dktIB3fjvHZl for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:07:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08DE51B2ADF for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDS09714; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 13:07:38 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:07:37 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml704-chm ([10.193.5.141]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:07:31 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nj0aAgAADXYD//5JgsIAAh9IAgAAO1gD//6qAIA== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:07:30 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm>, <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.185.197] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FDdfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.563B549D.002E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 12c4e40d24481eaab7e09d45ac4d8eb4 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 13:07:48 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FDdfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? Lucy From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also ha= ve obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. Lucy, I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encaps= ulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formula= ting and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. Regard, Surendra. Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Alia Atlas > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ether= type. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" > wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc > on behalf = of Lucy yong >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FDdfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If SFC is deployed in Eth= ernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet?

 <= /p>

Lucy

 <= /p>

From: Surendra= Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM
To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

I did go through the process of getting the ethertyp= e for NSH and I also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree= with Alia.

 

Lucy,

I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE= over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead an= d complexity in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel p= ath.

 

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certain= ly do.

 

Regard,

Surendra.

 

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com= >
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

<no-hats>

I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straig= htforward than an Ethertype.

Not having extra bytes is also an advantage.

 

Regards,

Alia 

</no-hats>

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM
To: sarikaya@ieee.o= rg
Cc: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-tr= ansport

Hi Behcet,

I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is.  It is true that VX= LAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. = Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy brought up = a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in be= tween the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefit= s - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does  not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see =AD
>>only additional  overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that  nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

 

--_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FDdfweml701chm_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 05:17:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73CF1B2B59 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:17:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 97Ze3FIrFT62 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223931B2B5D for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLR-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com (192.168.196.172) by WTL-EXCHP-3.sandvine.com (192.168.196.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:17:48 -0500 Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by blr-exchp-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::6c6d:7108:c63c:9055%14]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:17:50 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: Lucy yong , "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656NXPyAgACJkgD//5MqAIAAANIAgAAO1gCAADEZAP//rsNg Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:17:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm>, <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [183.77.156.199] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830D88192wtlexchp2sandvi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 13:17:51 -0000 --_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830D88192wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I find it to be a useful concept when SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connecti= ons. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? Lucy From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also ha= ve obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. Lucy, I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encaps= ulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formula= ting and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. Regard, Surendra. Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Alia Atlas > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ether= type. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" > wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc > on behalf = of Lucy yong >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830D88192wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I find it to be a useful = concept when SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connections.

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: sfc [mai= lto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

If SFC is deployed in Eth= ernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet?

 <= /p>

Lucy

 <= /p>

From: Surendra= Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco= .com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM
To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larr= y Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

I did go through the process of getting the ethertyp= e for NSH and I also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree= with Alia.

 

Lucy,

I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE= over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead an= d complexity in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel p= ath.

 

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certain= ly do.

 

Regard,

Surendra.

 

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com= >
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

<no-hats>

I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straig= htforward than an Ethertype.

Not having extra bytes is also an advantage.

 

Regards,

Alia 

</no-hats>

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM
To: sarikaya@ieee.o= rg
Cc: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-tr= ansport

Hi Behcet,

I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is.  It is true that VX= LAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. = Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy brought up = a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in be= tween the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefit= s - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does  not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see =AD
>>only additional  overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that  nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

 

--_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830D88192wtlexchp2sandvi_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 05:22:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82AE81B2B7B for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:22:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zjYfDMTUorjV for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9EB1B2B7A for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:22:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by WTL-EXCHP-3.sandvine.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:22:01 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , "sarikaya@ieee.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656NXPyAgACJkgD//4MgkA== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:22:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [183.77.156.199] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 13:22:03 -0000 I have the same comment with the VxLAN-GPE encapsulation; it seems unnecess= ary if UDP encap is available. Even so, if we accept VxLAN-GPE as a good idea it seems irrational to say U= DP/GRE is a bad idea. -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger= ) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:45 PM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)=20 > wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid =20 >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in=20 >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD=20 >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong=20 >> >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08)=20 >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an=20 >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional =20 >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 5 06:10:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765D71A6F65 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:10:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YEYWAmQ1vee6 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:10:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 519651B2A55 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:10:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=16568; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446732626; x=1447942226; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=6GNKAzSkCy5Muxm/WTIptPOSDE+8ofHfSXZuXERVDAk=; b=jM8K14mFGRVVF5CD2zluDsb1dwSAuuSjlYTUVsHDGFM2FLRzj7i/Vijx KamMXwpqmvC9VXRU1buIadaqQHiwIs7ZjqMMq9meTV0CJS8RDuO883Leg 3WH0hu2Yt7d3A2pt9b+sltgEqUEdsuyQfBMMKfAf3IQlNXjkbtcH59cUI g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AOAgAlYjtW/4QNJK1egm5NU2++CQENgV4XAQmFcQKBLjgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDUBAQEEAQEBawsMBAIBCA4DAwEBAQEJHgcPEgYLFAkIAgQBDQWIGQMSDb05DYQ8AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASLUoJTgigNCYQoBY1UhRODYQGLLoF0gVqHZIsyg2CDcQEfAQFCgg4DHYFWcoUfAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,247,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="47066571" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 14:10:25 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (xch-rcd-010.cisco.com [173.37.102.20]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA5EAP65027047 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:10:25 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (173.37.102.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:10:24 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:10:24 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: Dave Dolson , Lucy yong , "Alia Atlas" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nbb+AgAADXYCAABlgAIAAANEA//+qQpWAAJWuAIAAAuKA//+qHBA= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:10:24 +0000 Message-ID: <0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf5.1446732352825@email.android.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm>, <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf51446732352825emailandroidcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 14:10:32 -0000 --_000_0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf51446732352825emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Layer2 tunnels are just fine, they provide topological freedom. Surendra Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Dave Dolson Date: 2015/11/05 10:17 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong , "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , sfc@i= etf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I find it to be a useful concept when SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connecti= ons. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? Lucy From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also ha= ve obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. Lucy, I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encaps= ulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formula= ting and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. Regard, Surendra. Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Alia Atlas > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ether= type. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" > wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc > on behalf = of Lucy yong >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf51446732352825emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Layer2 tunnels are just fine, they provide topological freedom.

Surendra


Sent from a thumb typed device.


-------- Original message --------
From: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>
Date: 2015/11/05 10:17 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>, "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)&= quot; <smkumar@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@cisc= o.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

I find it to be a usefu= l concept when SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connections.

 

 

From: sfc [m= ailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

 

If SFC is deployed in E= thernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet?

 

Lucy

 

From: Surend= ra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cis= co.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM
To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larr= y Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

 

I did go through the process of getting the ethertyp= e for NSH and I also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree= with Alia.

 

Lucy,

I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE= over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead an= d complexity in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel p= ath.

 

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certain= ly do.

 

Regard,

Surendra.

 

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com= >
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

<no-hats>

I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straig= htforward than an Ethertype.

Not having extra bytes is also an advantage.

 

Regards,

Alia 

</no-hats>

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM
To: sarikaya@ieee.o= rg
Cc: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-tr= ansport

Hi Behcet,

I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is.  It is true that VX= LAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. = Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy brought up = a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in be= tween the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefit= s - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does  not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see =AD
>>only additional  overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that  nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

 

--_000_0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf51446732352825emailandroidcom_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 07:09:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF751B2EDB for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:09:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.709 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.709 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jmjTltCuu2zv for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:09:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from nm28-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm28-vm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.250]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A27931B2EA9 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:09:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1446736147; bh=fd2xZAD2uaOl6Ei2B+8hfe1bcg2hMwcF/MAadpoLui0=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From:Subject; b=V66CHRlsCkrV2lK6zYWrlGr3TOIfWRzRnbbea7I/ZtV7OTsH1J6BJVnsnO+wz1x7KrPSb1uJInHlxTz3OGcgMTQujgs/b+SRtZ7MqAZJVwXktikR/WrStQLDewKuSRBCXqVTbcZRvyPJPAhBfCpqYpE4pbfIvcrhuJizk9JYRLX2M1yimCl12JtKAjcTLr2NPZTmaYG7CcDfBDKZTNmeW4sTgVneF3RRIMqBkSx69HHrSgTawZfrOuVM5schLRVbkJucDsJolDrn2u7UeeCb459nnhmps3NdiKTNhrp27SDVB8LPb+icutTFh0yJx1his9yec7ntzyV8I0vFYI6z9A== Received: from [98.138.226.180] by nm28.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2015 15:09:07 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.47] by tm15.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2015 15:09:07 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 05 Nov 2015 15:09:07 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 233130.53132.bm@smtp115.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: YjNn9kEVM1niXu5DNSG9KYHKY7m.WTuU6zLuQtB63pZ9L.3 KVUWVeBpQFqldWjKtR6zppcwxb0gy3MJbB86oa8HX7U.wWtZejKJ2iYOKVxP zWfS3En0XqeAcwiuPWoTePGE._i7nxAiZ6z7HSSxKabxZm1ZWKwpP_GMKHbQ o.JFL6JWcFlfju9adjsa1w6ZO.GMXSfM.ZdUCfWJS6CZYBfpcyguzEyDWVtY 6kQjYwYxeA.GDjeComM8ht_U0hwDF3cLyX6IJaBtKBa0XXiE.ZPDpnM6EgBo 5f0HKtED0fj4nVLjFx5RLj72qat.IckZJaov8le018IRVxpL0A1ow99fI6Na AkJxIwrTUqKHLSb9yxl.9oPMJJFP9LvxOQzrdAntMGwSp_GU06gULmTZyr4w Puw9wp.GGSfbfsUv8.5qn6w6JBIFgUZWP6LZUy15ulp_sZDuy97yJPpXg3L5 jj76yp7p3xG9Asg1E9.31fGDWneaxuMUFVp0q_s8aQBHXEmN.jsq20X68QCE vOqWaORu49mzQvjoiyKiD5LHkbNxf3w-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: fs7iLCSswBBDBLcI2rgu6.1JrA-- Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Sumandra Majee X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13A452) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 10:09:05 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Dave Dolson Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:09:29 -0000 I think all of these methods will be useful in different scenario. However i= f the current deployment didn't require any tunnel then NSH over UDP is a ve= ry straightforward. To me that is the fundamental motivation. =20 Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 5, 2015, at 8:22 AM, Dave Dolson wrote: >=20 > I have the same comment with the VxLAN-GPE encapsulation; it seems unneces= sary if UDP encap is available. >=20 > Even so, if we accept VxLAN-GPE as a good idea it seems irrational to say U= DP/GRE is a bad idea. >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreege= r) > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:45 PM > To: sarikaya@ieee.org > Cc: sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >=20 > Hi Behcet, >=20 > I=C2=B9m not sure I=C2=B9m following what your point is. It is true that V= XLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carr= ying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new optio= n that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE ove= r UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my o= pinion doesn=C2=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication= . >=20 > Thanks, Larry >=20 >> On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >>=20 >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)=20 >> wrote: >>> Hi Lucy, >>>=20 >>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid =20 >>> unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in=20 >>> between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =C2=AD= =20 >>> only additional overhead. >>=20 >> The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. >>=20 >> Behcet >>> Thanks, Larry >>>=20 >>> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong=20 >>> >>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08)=20 >>> that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an=20 >>> Ethertype for nsh. >>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional =20= >>> security capability. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Lucy >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 5 07:26:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91EA91B2FAD for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:26:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AHzvGvS7qB6U for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-4.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-4.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.22.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 678B51B2F5F for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:22:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-4.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:22:56 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Songhaibin (A)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Map-Assisted SFC Proxy using LISP Thread-Index: AdEXbi5kBRq8c4XcS3K4te8cyDufewAbojYg Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:22:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B2E95506CMBX021W3CA2exch_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Map-Assisted SFC Proxy using LISP X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:26:22 -0000 --_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B2E95506CMBX021W3CA2exch_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Haibin, After reading your draft, I feel that it would benefit from splitting the n= otion of "non-transparent legacy service function" into separate distinctio= ns based on the OSI model. The service function may be "transparent" at L2, L3, L4, in which case you = could, indeed, manipulate the MAC header to your advantage. Such service f= unctions would forward traffic at L2, either through MAC bridging and/or vi= a a 2-member port-based VLAN. Other service functions may be "transparent" at L3 and L4, only. Such ser= vice functions may forward traffic based on IP forwarding tables which are = populated statically or dynamically. Theoretically, there are service functions may be "transparent" at L3, only= (e.g., port translation without address translation), but I can't think of= any practical examples (I'm excluding service functions that originate the= ir own sympathetic flows in this analysis). Lastly, we have service functions that are not "transparent" at all, such a= s those that perform SNAPT. You do cover this case by explicitly excludin= g it, which is fine, I think. Thanks. Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Songhaibin (A) Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 9:03 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] Map-Assisted SFC Proxy using LISP Hi, Legacy service function support is obviously important in the SFC WG. I wou= ld like to request the authors of this draft to read draft-song-sfc-legacy-= sf-mapping. I think there is a lot of overlapping between these two drafts. BR, -Haibin --_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B2E95506CMBX021W3CA2exch_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Haibi= n,

=  

After= reading your draft, I feel that it would benefit from splitting the notion= of “non-transparent legacy service function” into separate dis= tinctions based on the OSI model.  

=  

The s= ervice function may be “transparent” at L2, L3, L4, in which ca= se you could, indeed, manipulate the MAC header to your advantage.  Su= ch service functions would forward traffic at L2, either through MAC bridging and/or via a 2-member port-based VLAN.

=  

Other= service functions may be “transparent” at L3 and L4, only.&nbs= p;  Such service functions may forward traffic based on IP forwarding = tables which are populated statically or dynamically.

=  

Theor= etically, there are service functions may be “transparent” at L= 3, only (e.g., port translation without address translation), but I canR= 17;t think of any practical examples (I’m excluding service functions that originate their own sympathetic flows in this analysis).

=  

Lastl= y, we have service functions that are not “transparent” at all,= such as those that perform SNAPT.   You do cover this case by ex= plicitly excluding it, which is fine, I think.

=  

Thank= s.

=  

 = ;   Ron

=  

 

From: = sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Songhaibin (A)
Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 9:03 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] Map-Assisted SFC Proxy using LISP

 =

Hi,<= /o:p>

&nbs= p;

Legacy se= rvice function support is obviously important in the SFC WG. I would like t= o request the authors of this draft to read draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping. I think there is a lot of overlapping between these two drafts.

 

BR,=

-Haibin

--_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B2E95506CMBX021W3CA2exch_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 07:29:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA111B30D8 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:29:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EPajayV2MVaw for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:29:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-4.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-4.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.22.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E4E61B3027 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:25:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-4.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 07:25:11 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q5xuabff0gtUet7dPFbRQaWp6NjRaQ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:25:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 15:29:15 -0000 Joel, Is the question whether there should be authentication at all, or whether i= t should be mandatory vs. optional? If optional, it would lend itself to= carriage within the metadata (although type 1 could be challenging). Ron -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 8:38 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 From where I sit, and with the deploymenbts I expect, requiring authentica= tion of SFC NSH or of the whole packet seems excessive. Given that the NSH= header metadata is going to be modified at many service functions, this me= ans that SF have to be able to generate the authentication. And there is a very challenging quesiton as to who would be expected to do = the work of validating the authentication? Every Service Function? So I am doubtful of REQ-14 mandating authentication within the SFC space. = When we have inter-domain links, authentication and encryption become relev= ant. I understand that hard-shell / weak innards security is questionable.=20 But adding significant overhead in both sapce and time seems highly questio= nable. Yours, Joel On 11/4/15 8:27 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: > I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on=20 > draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. > > In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requirements. > It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are=20 > problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing=20 > within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where=20 > REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. > > If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very=20 > important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are=20 > mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existing=20 > metadata unless they could provide proper authn. > > Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in general=20 > (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), it=20 > uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to=20 > what the limit might be. > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 5 09:40:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111A61A21B0 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:40:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jSiRT67bfUVY for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:40:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F8AC1A0366 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 09:40:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2888; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446745227; x=1447954827; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=qCDR/7gcZXQIPAqIQvbzh1yUm/vfUvov39RD6/vZrsk=; b=DPw3wtaU1EucxIMVpSOZBAPfb41RdZfqbavyO/5pKLAeVRfd4F7el3TF 4ALFv0BfgikYzvnW0HFh6sX9IfyZ6B4mWVMloxwTn2c2n5mID/DLp5UG4 kt8EAVpfphKEhk0bV6gaTsFMf+I0CJQWYnsE3PvLmUX9MuwogGgaITAA2 U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AQBQCNkztW/5hdJa1egztTbwa/bhcKhW8CgTQ8EAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEBAwEBAQE3NAsFCwIBCBgeECEGCyUCBA4FiBkDCggNvSoNhDoBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIZUghCCboJTgWIkg0uBFQWWSAGLLoF0lHCHUQE4K4QEcoNWAR4HHIEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,248,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="204737021" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 17:40:26 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (xch-rcd-006.cisco.com [173.37.102.16]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA5HeQBL001011 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:40:26 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:40:26 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:40:25 -0600 From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: Sharon Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q+SPQ5Wk3fbkGb2eKMd9WDJ56ND3iAgAEIYQA= Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:40:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 17:40:29 -0000 > On Nov 4, 2015, at 8:54 PM, Sharon wrote: >=20 > This is part of the motivation for the draft Alberto presented stripping = NSH before SFs, keeping attack surface same as "normal" networking.=20 Are you implying that the SFs are more trusted w/o NSH? =20 >=20 > However stripping context while keeping SFC connectionless requires some = map-assistance so packets can show up anywhere and chains can fork physical= ly and logically. >=20 > --szb >=20 >> On Nov 4, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>=20 >> From where I sit, and with the deploymenbts I expect, requiring authenti= cation of SFC NSH or of the whole packet seems excessive. Given that the N= SH header metadata is going to be modified at many service functions, this = means that SF have to be able to generate the authentication. >>=20 >> And there is a very challenging quesiton as to who would be expected to = do the work of validating the authentication? Every Service Function? >>=20 >> So I am doubtful of REQ-14 mandating authentication within the SFC space= . When we have inter-domain links, authentication and encryption become re= levant. >> I understand that hard-shell / weak innards security is questionable. Bu= t adding significant overhead in both sapce and time seems highly questiona= ble. >>=20 >> Yours, >> Joel >>=20 >>> On 11/4/15 8:27 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: >>> I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on >>> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. >>>=20 >>> In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requirements= . >>> It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are >>> problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing >>> within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where >>> REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. >>>=20 >>> If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very >>> important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are >>> mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existing >>> metadata unless they could provide proper authn. >>>=20 >>> Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in general >>> (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), it >>> uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to what >>> the limit might be. >>>=20 >>> Joe >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 5 12:50:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319A11A1A5D for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 12:50:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RLgF-Ow384Rp for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 12:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22e.google.com (mail-pa0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490521A1A55 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 12:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacdm15 with SMTP id dm15so73454714pac.3 for ; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 12:50:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=+mDSaj+deZKXKvLPmF+wlS5gqPP/Ws441hfGDgJJfqg=; b=sXlQpIG4Ajw6aAIAgCThEBG/YQ7VNByPSp99o2Sc8ehwLw2NBUMiYERxN+s7hVFV6L xZU7Op7rxu7WSGn8iB9XaWoHFn3sEmaVwpkq1wwWpoZe1M7mr/2Mx/KV1+qbWMDh1y4C gUXgwY/Q8dUV5mgTdOhbcJtyifCJJgom8wII2B2ih2aUmys76aEG9cKIUSw4aUQtkrOx mKmlr0no3GPN+jM2L/mmTWBBIRA4rFQuPkUS5ZXwVCjQMZZ2r9+CdddGBZoma59m9Lz7 bT9CgjYS3OJpHX6jwyPHe0Pi1p2mLbkElNkP+7tmu76DLN8Pk0tHAKj7JK+HrUjljLZH XFQA== X-Received: by 10.68.117.108 with SMTP id kd12mr11974998pbb.154.1446756628909; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 12:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:1010:b05e:a1d1:dda7:e597:1cd9:7e11? ([2600:1010:b05e:a1d1:dda7:e597:1cd9:7e11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y16sm9478177pbt.88.2015.11.05.12.50.27 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 12:50:28 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Sharon X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13B143) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 12:50:26 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <65234E83-411F-4370-B5BC-6760E73D5536@gmail.com> References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Archived-At: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 20:50:31 -0000 Yes. --szb > On Nov 5, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Nov 4, 2015, at 8:54 PM, Sharon wrote: >>=20 >> This is part of the motivation for the draft Alberto presented stripping N= SH before SFs, keeping attack surface same as "normal" networking. >=20 >=20 > Are you implying that the SFs are more trusted w/o NSH? =20 >=20 >>=20 >> However stripping context while keeping SFC connectionless requires some m= ap-assistance so packets can show up anywhere and chains can fork physically= and logically. >>=20 >> --szb >>=20 >>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:= >>>=20 >>> =46rom where I sit, and with the deploymenbts I expect, requiring authen= tication of SFC NSH or of the whole packet seems excessive. Given that the N= SH header metadata is going to be modified at many service functions, this m= eans that SF have to be able to generate the authentication. >>>=20 >>> And there is a very challenging quesiton as to who would be expected to d= o the work of validating the authentication? Every Service Function? >>>=20 >>> So I am doubtful of REQ-14 mandating authentication within the SFC space= . When we have inter-domain links, authentication and encryption become rel= evant. >>> I understand that hard-shell / weak innards security is questionable. Bu= t adding significant overhead in both sapce and time seems highly questionab= le. >>>=20 >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>>=20 >>>> On 11/4/15 8:27 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: >>>> I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on >>>> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. >>>>=20 >>>> In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requirements= . >>>> It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are >>>> problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing >>>> within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where >>>> REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. >>>>=20 >>>> If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very >>>> important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are >>>> mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existing >>>> metadata unless they could provide proper authn. >>>>=20 >>>> Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in general >>>> (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), it >>>> uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to what= >>>> the limit might be. >>>>=20 >>>> Joe >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 5 13:19:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB0B1A8A90 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:19:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2z2k9oNAqtu8 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga11.intel.com (mga11.intel.com [192.55.52.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF431A8A75 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:19:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmga001.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.18]) by fmsmga102.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 13:19:25 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,248,1444719600"; d="scan'208,217";a="812780195" Received: from orsmsx103.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.130]) by orsmga001.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 13:19:25 -0800 Received: from orsmsx114.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.91]) by ORSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.103]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 13:19:25 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AdEXp8m6yQaw1JVOQR+GEAPtWpkjCw== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 21:19:24 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1ORSMSX114amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 21:19:37 -0000 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1ORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1ORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential= of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement = or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If = not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the out= bound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for= the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1ORSMSX114amrcor_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 14:12:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56901B3C54 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:12:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDx6sdb6QwUF for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 472EF1B3C3E for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:11:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CDS54576; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:11:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML706-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.225) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 22:11:54 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml706-chm ([10.193.5.225]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:11:51 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Dave Dolson , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nj0aAgAADXYD//5JgsIAAh9IAgAAO1gD//6qAIIAAiXuAgAAOsQD///8BsA== Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 22:11:51 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207BB5@dfweml701-chm> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm>, <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm>, <0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf5.1446732352825@email.android.com> In-Reply-To: <0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf5.1446732352825@email.android.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.185.205] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207BB5dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.563BD42C.00AB, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 12c4e40d24481eaab7e09d45ac4d8eb4 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:12:08 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207BB5dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 8:10 AM To: Dave Dolson; Lucy yong; Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Layer2 tunnels are just fine, they provide topological freedom. [Lucy] UDP can't be over L2 directly. You need Ethertype for NSH in L2 sp= ace. Lucy Surendra Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Dave Dolson > Date: 2015/11/05 10:17 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong >, "Surendr= a Kumar (smkumar)" >, Alia Atla= s > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I find it to be a useful concept when SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connecti= ons. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? Lucy From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also ha= ve obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. Lucy, I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encaps= ulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formula= ting and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. Regard, Surendra. Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Alia Atlas > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ether= type. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" > wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc > on behalf = of Lucy yong >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207BB5dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 <= /p>

From: Surendra= Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 8:10 AM
To: Dave Dolson; Lucy yong; Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

Layer2 tunnels are just fine, they provide topologic= al freedom.

[Lucy] UDP can̵= 7;t be over L2 directly.   You need Ethertype for NSH in L2 space= .

 

Lucy

 

Surendra

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandv= ine.com>
Date: 2015/11/05 10:17 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>, "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" <smkumar@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

I find it to be a useful = concept when SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connections.

 <= /p>

 <= /p>

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larr= y Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

 

If SFC is deployed in Eth= ernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet?

 <= /p>

Lucy

 <= /p>

From: Surendra= Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco= .com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM
To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larr= y Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

 

I did go through the process of getting the ethertyp= e for NSH and I also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree= with Alia.

 

Lucy,

I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE= over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead an= d complexity in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel p= ath.

 

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certain= ly do.

 

Regard,

Surendra.

 

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com= >
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

<no-hats>

I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straig= htforward than an Ethertype.

Not having extra bytes is also an advantage.

 

Regards,

Alia 

</no-hats>

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM
To: sarikaya@ieee.o= rg
Cc: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-tr= ansport

Hi Behcet,

I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is.  It is true that VX= LAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. = Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy brought up = a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in be= tween the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefit= s - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does  not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see =AD
>>only additional  overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that  nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

 

--_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207BB5dfweml701chm_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 14:17:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD0C1B3C5F for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:17:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lhJHoW82ilbr for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D1921B3C61 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 14:17:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3749; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446761872; x=1447971472; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=QoxRUXgVwI0z9noS42AGATwAI9tnLHjMm4c0fPe1gWo=; b=eH7PRrw7qNM5uOl+mI1NOHAJfh5CdLr6zuZt6+n+7pYyUu6Tf2SB7LKu N0pwPrA9de3Ncu1eXtEYx782i7oOVBTnvj3L3N/GiSNzo+3nWDHcbH+wX IOqv/mhp/re+z9/TDdRZvPnN89XZT+gG2CQPvumfvZ/D5vhj5vfcpta3E Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AQBQC21DtW/4QNJK1egztTbwa/cBcKhW8CgTs8EAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEBAwEBAQE3NAsFCwIBCBgeECEGCyUCBA4FiBkDCggNvFANhD4BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIZUghCCboJTgWIkg0uBFQWWSAGLLoF0lHCHUQE4K4QEcoNWAR4HHIEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,249,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205525852" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2015 22:17:51 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (xch-rcd-008.cisco.com [173.37.102.18]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA5MHpIr008272 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 5 Nov 2015 22:17:51 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:17:50 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:17:50 -0600 From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: Sharon Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q+SPQ5Wk3fbkGb2eKMd9WDJ56ND3iAgAEIYQCAADUYAIAAGGkA Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 22:17:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <65234E83-411F-4370-B5BC-6760E73D5536@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <65234E83-411F-4370-B5BC-6760E73D5536@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3D7C13A5FB267B46BB719D9F880F1423@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:17:54 -0000 I find that a tough assumption to accept within a given administrative doma= in. Let's ignore NSH for a moment: SFs perform a slew of operations that r= equire trust, including in some cases holding a trusted certificate. If yo= u can't trust you services, then the you need to consider why you've deploy= ed them. Taking it one step further: why trust the network nodes then? Certainly, we should allow for verification/authenticity (when needed) but = we need to be pragmatic with our trust model. Paul > On Nov 5, 2015, at 3:50 PM, Sharon wrote: >=20 > Yes. >=20 > --szb >=20 >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 8:54 PM, Sharon wrote: >>>=20 >>> This is part of the motivation for the draft Alberto presented strippin= g NSH before SFs, keeping attack surface same as "normal" networking. >>=20 >>=20 >> Are you implying that the SFs are more trusted w/o NSH? =20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> However stripping context while keeping SFC connectionless requires som= e map-assistance so packets can show up anywhere and chains can fork physic= ally and logically. >>>=20 >>> --szb >>>=20 >>>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrot= e: >>>>=20 >>>> From where I sit, and with the deploymenbts I expect, requiring authen= tication of SFC NSH or of the whole packet seems excessive. Given that the= NSH header metadata is going to be modified at many service functions, thi= s means that SF have to be able to generate the authentication. >>>>=20 >>>> And there is a very challenging quesiton as to who would be expected t= o do the work of validating the authentication? Every Service Function? >>>>=20 >>>> So I am doubtful of REQ-14 mandating authentication within the SFC spa= ce. When we have inter-domain links, authentication and encryption become = relevant. >>>> I understand that hard-shell / weak innards security is questionable. = But adding significant overhead in both sapce and time seems highly questio= nable. >>>>=20 >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>>=20 >>>>> On 11/4/15 8:27 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: >>>>> I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on >>>>> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. >>>>>=20 >>>>> In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requiremen= ts. >>>>> It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are >>>>> problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing >>>>> within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where >>>>> REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. >>>>>=20 >>>>> If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very >>>>> important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are >>>>> mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existin= g >>>>> metadata unless they could provide proper authn. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in genera= l >>>>> (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), i= t >>>>> uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to wh= at >>>>> the limit might be. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Joe >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:09:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23131A21A6 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:09:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dam5u50bQ0DM for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from g1t5425.austin.hp.com (g1t5425.austin.hp.com [15.216.225.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 971E51A1F73 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:09:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (g2w4316.austin.hp.com [16.197.9.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by g1t5425.austin.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A08C44; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:09:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: from G1W5784.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.193.26.2) by G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.197.9.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.169.1; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:07:10 +0000 Received: from G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net ([169.254.7.38]) by G1W5784.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.193.26.2]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:07:10 +0000 From: "Bottorff, Paul" To: Alia Atlas , Lucy yong Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656NCSqAgAADXYCAABlfAIAAANIAgAD1ldA= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:07:10 +0000 Message-ID: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A39FA@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [16.196.64.191] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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[70.214.0.67]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id fk8sm9987739pab.33.2015.11.05.16.10.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:10:46 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Sharon X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13B143) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:10:44 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <574C590B-346A-40F7-87A5-12F65145D930@gmail.com> References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <65234E83-411F-4370-B5BC-6760E73D5536@gmail.com> To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Archived-At: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:10:49 -0000 I guess the point is that by stripping the NSH before the SFs we trust the S= Fs no more and no less then we trust any service endpoint or bump on the wir= e we apply today. The NSH gives more context information then before which e= xposes the solution to bugs and assumptions. Having no context information m= aximizes dev-ops permutation freedom.=20 There's also the legacy functions, macs, sriov etc considerations. Having said that I do believe that in this new sfc domain the notion of an N= SH allows us to dynamically link NFV solutions using destination based conne= ctionless networking - which is very good. Probably the only way to scale ov= erlays and avoid circuits and state fragility. --szb > On Nov 5, 2015, at 2:17 PM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >=20 > I find that a tough assumption to accept within a given administrative dom= ain. Let's ignore NSH for a moment: SFs perform a slew of operations that r= equire trust, including in some cases holding a trusted certificate. If you= can't trust you services, then the you need to consider why you've deployed= them. Taking it one step further: why trust the network nodes then? >=20 > Certainly, we should allow for verification/authenticity (when needed) but= we need to be pragmatic with our trust model. >=20 > Paul >=20 >=20 >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 3:50 PM, Sharon wrote: >>=20 >> Yes. >>=20 >> --szb >>=20 >>> On Nov 5, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 8:54 PM, Sharon wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> This is part of the motivation for the draft Alberto presented strippin= g NSH before SFs, keeping attack surface same as "normal" networking. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Are you implying that the SFs are more trusted w/o NSH? =20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> However stripping context while keeping SFC connectionless requires som= e map-assistance so packets can show up anywhere and chains can fork physica= lly and logically. >>>>=20 >>>> --szb >>>>=20 >>>>> On Nov 4, 2015, at 5:37 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrot= e: >>>>>=20 >>>>> =46rom where I sit, and with the deploymenbts I expect, requiring auth= entication of SFC NSH or of the whole packet seems excessive. Given that th= e NSH header metadata is going to be modified at many service functions, thi= s means that SF have to be able to generate the authentication. >>>>>=20 >>>>> And there is a very challenging quesiton as to who would be expected t= o do the work of validating the authentication? Every Service Function? >>>>>=20 >>>>> So I am doubtful of REQ-14 mandating authentication within the SFC spa= ce. When we have inter-domain links, authentication and encryption become r= elevant. >>>>> I understand that hard-shell / weak innards security is questionable. B= ut adding significant overhead in both sapce and time seems highly questiona= ble. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Joel >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 11/4/15 8:27 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: >>>>>> I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on >>>>>> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requiremen= ts. >>>>>> It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are >>>>>> problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing >>>>>> within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where= >>>>>> REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very >>>>>> important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are >>>>>> mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existin= g >>>>>> metadata unless they could provide proper authn. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in genera= l >>>>>> (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), i= t >>>>>> uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to wh= at >>>>>> the limit might be. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Joe >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:13:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E291A6F59 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:13:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rHh64DTRuZDO for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from g2t2354.austin.hp.com (g2t2354.austin.hp.com [15.217.128.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5B5F1A6F58 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:13:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (g2w4316.austin.hp.com [16.197.9.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by g2t2354.austin.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B5574D; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:13:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from G1W5782.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.193.26.0) by G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.197.9.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.169.1; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:10:49 +0000 Received: from G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net ([169.254.7.38]) by G1W5782.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.193.26.0]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:10:49 +0000 From: "Bottorff, Paul" To: Lucy yong , "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656NCSqAgAADXYCAABlfAIAAANIAgAAO1gCAADEaAIAAuPBQ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:10:48 +0000 Message-ID: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm>, <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [16.196.64.191] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0FG2W2527americas_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:13:11 -0000 --_000_94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0FG2W2527americas_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to allow for= small scale environments which don't need NVO3 overlays. Cheers, Paul From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? Lucy From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also ha= ve obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. Lucy, I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encaps= ulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formula= ting and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. Regard, Surendra. Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Alia Atlas > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ether= type. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" > wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc > on behalf = of Lucy yong >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0FG2W2527americas_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It is definitely a useful option to r= un directly over Ethernet to allow for small scale environments which don&#= 8217;t need NVO3 overlays.

 

Cheers,

 

Paul

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

If SFC is deployed in Ethernet networ= k, do we need NSH over Ethernet?

 

Lucy

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM
To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larr= y Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

I did go through the process of getting the ethertyp= e for NSH and I also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree= with Alia.

 

Lucy,

I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE= over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead an= d complexity in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel p= ath.

 

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certain= ly do.

 

Regard,

Surendra.

 

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com= >
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

<no-hats>

I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straig= htforward than an Ethertype.

Not having extra bytes is also an advantage.

 

Regards,

Alia 

</no-hats>

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM
To: sarikaya@ieee.o= rg
Cc: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-tr= ansport

Hi Behcet,

I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is.  It is true that VX= LAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. = Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy brought up = a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in be= tween the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefit= s - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does  not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see =AD
>>only additional  overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that  nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

 

--_000_94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0FG2W2527americas_-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:16:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28AC1A212D for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:16:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cbLmZDF5m0K2 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BDE81A1BFF for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C75224119F; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:16:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from dhcp-25-165.meeting.ietf94.jp (dhcp-25-165.meeting.ietf94.jp [133.93.25.165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D22F240EBB; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:16:05 -0800 (PST) To: Ron Parker , "sfc@ietf.org" References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 19:16:03 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:16:07 -0000 Optional authentication is fine. As you say, we have a TLV structure. With a little care we can define how to use that to allow for authentication when useful. Mandatory authentication (as appears to be described by the current REQ-14 text) is what causes me concern. Yours, Joel On 11/5/15 10:25 AM, Ron Parker wrote: > Joel, > > Is the question whether there should be authentication at all, or whether it should be mandatory vs. optional? If optional, it would lend itself to carriage within the metadata (although type 1 could be challenging). > > Ron > > > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 8:38 PM > To: sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 > > From where I sit, and with the deploymenbts I expect, requiring authentication of SFC NSH or of the whole packet seems excessive. Given that the NSH header metadata is going to be modified at many service functions, this means that SF have to be able to generate the authentication. > > And there is a very challenging quesiton as to who would be expected to do the work of validating the authentication? Every Service Function? > > So I am doubtful of REQ-14 mandating authentication within the SFC space. When we have inter-domain links, authentication and encryption become relevant. > I understand that hard-shell / weak innards security is questionable. > But adding significant overhead in both sapce and time seems highly questionable. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/4/15 8:27 PM, Joe Clarke wrote: >> I figure I'll get the ball rolling with comments on >> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00. >> >> In particular, I want to comment on section SFC Data Plane Requirements. >> It was raised today in the session that REQ16 and REQ17 are >> problematic given certain use cases. The use case of load balancing >> within a domain was brought up. I can think of other use cases where >> REQ17, specifically, would be a problem. >> >> If you assume that REQ14 and REQ15 are in place (and these are very >> important IMHO), then the risks associated with REQ16 and REQ17 are >> mitigated. One could not inject their own metadata or modify existing >> metadata unless they could provide proper authn. >> >> Additionally, on REQ17, while this is a good recommendation in general >> (i.e., think about what you want to send and be frugal with space), it >> uses a strong word, MUST without providing any real guidance as to >> what the limit might be. >> >> Joe >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:21:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE921A6FA7; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:21:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id piC4-7t3B0Vi; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:21:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x231.google.com (mail-pa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 270ED1A6F59; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:21:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by padhx2 with SMTP id hx2so94519795pad.1; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:21:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=AaSBqt31v/FXpRg12mZBlLy86yHlVpPAeAqyP5kOcmw=; b=UB8MhXiJLlFU5xAUwl/DbajzxHp0g51AWwWqCnXOK667Gb9k0DwJCveerXFRr8fYbd V3c7pr3GANrNpYtw5Tp7FRKbzsnKKDUIAB492/wuv2SHbzajblfFBanYtsrVuowKTWtK Mmnm+bvN1OSqnSy32lbQPlgIETSBjEcL9T8ezPfwEm5ncR14V2Ll7sd+wyWF9IlZ5H0L m6MhMmIBLOENc3WPEadfQQJARypxRGjyQsmtoSTqPnpVGtUNcifKy+sZwOVygJ2ZQULW nmFdfziuUr/R3o5vsdaGzW5VkYuyW1psV526+n+pjSmNxhRz6mzt3Eu5MaqFb4Bv0f9E e8LQ== X-Received: by 10.68.65.42 with SMTP id u10mr13271212pbs.8.1446769292672; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from t20010c400000308028a91aeec12dfbcc.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp (t20010c400000308028a91aeec12dfbcc.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp. [2001:c40:0:3080:28a9:1aee:c12d:fbcc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b6sm9958242pbu.90.2015.11.05.16.21.29 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:21:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:21:27 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> To: "Bottorff, Paul" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "Surendra Kumar \(smkumar\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , Larry Kreeger Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:21:36 -0000 As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run over = anything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn=92t need to special = case NSH. Like the analogy I used at the mic =85 why doest=92t VXLAN-GPE have a = code point for DNS? ;-) Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it = will work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to = work over anything we will build. NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. Dino > On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul = wrote: >=20 > It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to = allow for small scale environments which don=92t need NVO3 overlays. > =20 > Cheers, > =20 > Paul > =20 > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM > To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > =20 > If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? > =20 > Lucy > =20 > From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM > To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > =20 > I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I = also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. > =20 > Lucy, > I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested = encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity = in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. > =20 > I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. > =20 > Regard, > Surendra. > =20 > =20 > =20 > Sent from a thumb typed device. >=20 >=20 > -------- Original message -------- > From: Alia Atlas =20 > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)=20 > To: Lucy yong =20 > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , = sfc@ietf.org=20 > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=20 >=20 > =20 > I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an = Ethertype. > Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. > =20 > Regards, > Alia=20 > > =20 > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong = wrote: > Hi Larry, >=20 > The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. >=20 > Thanks, > Lucy >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger = (kreeger) > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM > To: sarikaya@ieee.org > Cc: sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >=20 > Hi Behcet, >=20 > I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that = VXLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. = Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a = new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry = NSH in GRE over UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header = and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more = overhead and complication. >=20 > Thanks, Larry >=20 > On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >=20 > >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) > > wrote: > >> Hi Lucy, > >> > >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid > >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in > >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see = =AD > >>only additional overhead. > >> > > > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > > > >Behcet > >> Thanks, Larry > >> > >> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong > >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM > >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > >> > >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport = (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) > >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an > >>Ethertype for nsh. > >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with = additional > >>security capability. > >> > >> > >> > >> Lucy > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sfc mailing list > >> sfc@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > >> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > =20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 5 16:37:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923211A7001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:37:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cY6X8H9lCqTZ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com (mail-pa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 568A71A6FFE; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:37:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacdm15 with SMTP id dm15so78827306pac.3; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:37:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sm8FGeabSz7EwkewI7i2osR3uzKf/GK/EZ+a29M07Ks=; b=y2KamYTyc+yjrERSsEznLBQhZ3yuV9cGEHadqEVd2Gjb2wGNXZNxK8Iw6YalQv3RUX yrkTuJGNZMZiD8FnPJK5c4La0w6tefaLbD17VqkNrEQuznze1mJYDg4qQ6wWJfOvOZFe WTQuSBQNCysmCND7wi1srqO9QcZbCWazqyzSIutb8IZspRs3w+GIkdtSVwgHw8uMwswY SJfV0QF51iam6zEm2ylgBgQYd0dwxoHFFyY2mYrWiJSKn2A48+knZCIpMEf13rTJtriA mBFFttaP+62yrYreZ52uaRYPLXt8C8qOZJ93FBCF0yJ+5eP7peyJNq0TdaXrmHrlkUKZ CnmQ== X-Received: by 10.68.129.40 with SMTP id nt8mr13265416pbb.118.1446770258909; Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:37:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.5] (c-73-189-176-93.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.189.176.93]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id xe9sm10104667pbc.4.2015.11.05.16.37.37 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 16:37:38 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Sam Aldrin X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13B143) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:37:37 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9F812E1E-F487-4626-A074-8E4F2F836BED@gmail.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> To: Dino Farinacci Archived-At: Cc: "Surendra Kumar \(smkumar\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , Larry Kreeger Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 00:37:41 -0000 Need for a new protocol should not be based on how hard or easy it is easy t= o get ethertype or UDP port. That is procedural pain than technical merit. I tend to agree with Dino. If NSH could run as a transport client just like a= ny other application, we should do that. Otherwise authors should provide mo= re stronger reasons on why NSH is different and the need for a new protocol.= =20 AFAIK, every protocol started off with being lightweight and simple, till ne= w one came up :D Sam Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote: >=20 > As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run over a= nything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn=E2=80=99t need to special c= ase NSH. >=20 > Like the analogy I used at the mic =E2=80=A6 why doest=E2=80=99t VXLAN-GPE= have a code point for DNS? ;-) >=20 > Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it will= work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to work ov= er anything we will build. >=20 > NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. >=20 > Dino >=20 >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul wrote:= >>=20 >> It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to allow f= or small scale environments which don=E2=80=99t need NVO3 overlays. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> Paul >>=20 >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM >> To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>=20 >> If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? >>=20 >> Lucy >>=20 >> From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]=20 >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM >> To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>=20 >> I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also h= ave obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. >>=20 >> Lucy, >> I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested enca= psulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formul= ating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. >>=20 >> I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. >>=20 >> Regard, >> Surendra. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from a thumb typed device. >>=20 >>=20 >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Alia Atlas =20 >> Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)=20 >> To: Lucy yong =20 >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , sfc= @ietf.org=20 >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=20 >>=20 >> =20 >> I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Eth= ertype. >> Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Alia=20 >> >>=20 >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong wrote: >> Hi Larry, >>=20 >> The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Lucy >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeg= er) >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM >> To: sarikaya@ieee.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>=20 >> Hi Behcet, >>=20 >> I=C2=B9m not sure I=C2=B9m following what your point is. It is true that= VXLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Ca= rrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new opt= ion that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE o= ver UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in m= y opinion doesn=C2=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complicat= ion. >>=20 >> Thanks, Larry >>=20 >>> On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >>> wrote: >>>> Hi Lucy, >>>>=20 >>>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>>> unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>>> between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =C2= =AD >>>> only additional overhead. >>>=20 >>> The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. >>>=20 >>> Behcet >>>> Thanks, Larry >>>>=20 >>>> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong >>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >>>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >>>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>>=20 >>>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>>> that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>>> Ethertype for nsh. >>>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>>> security capability. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Lucy >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > nvo3 mailing list > nvo3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3 From nobody Thu Nov 5 17:28:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6BA1A012D; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:28:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Za_RzX_T0wrB; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE77D1A039C; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id BZZ22769; Fri, 06 Nov 2015 01:28:28 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML704-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.141) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:28:27 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml704-chm ([10.193.5.141]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:28:23 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: Sam Aldrin , Dino Farinacci Thread-Topic: [nvo3] [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nj0aAgAADXYD//5JgsIAAh9IAgAAO1gD//6qAIIABP+wAgAAC+oCAAASEgP//hQcw Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:28:22 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207D6B@dfweml701-chm> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <9F812E1E-F487-4626-A074-8E4F2F836BED@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9F812E1E-F487-4626-A074-8E4F2F836BED@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.187.136] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090203.563C023C.009B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 055928c503e6cc4f1d3333df8c2adbf0 Archived-At: Cc: "Surendra Kumar \(smkumar\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , Larry Kreeger Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 01:28:38 -0000 ICANCg0KTmVlZCBmb3IgYSBuZXcgcHJvdG9jb2wgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBiYXNlZCBvbiBob3cg aGFyZCBvciBlYXN5IGl0IGlzIGVhc3kgdG8gZ2V0IGV0aGVydHlwZSBvciBVRFAgcG9ydC4gVGhh dCBpcyBwcm9jZWR1cmFsIHBhaW4gdGhhbiB0ZWNobmljYWwgbWVyaXQuDQpbTHVjeV0gQWdyZWUu DQoNCkkgdGVuZCB0byBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIERpbm8uIElmIE5TSCBjb3VsZCBydW4gYXMgYSB0cmFu c3BvcnQgY2xpZW50IGp1c3QgbGlrZSBhbnkgb3RoZXIgYXBwbGljYXRpb24sIHdlIHNob3VsZCBk 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[2001:c40:0:3080:28a9:1aee:c12d:fbcc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id yz3sm10198537pbb.37.2015.11.05.17.30.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 17:31:00 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207D6B@dfweml701-chm> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:30:56 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <86EE498A-ED2E-4400-AFD9-01FF51A52793@gmail.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <9F812E1E-F487-4626-A074-8E4F2F836BED@gmail.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207D6B@dfweml701-chm> To: Lucy Yong X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: "Surendra Kumar \(smkumar\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Alia Atlas , Sam Aldrin , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , Larry Kreeger Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 01:31:04 -0000 Lucy, an IP packet can run over *any* transport network. Dino > On Nov 5, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Lucy yong wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Need for a new protocol should not be based on how hard or easy it is = easy to get ethertype or UDP port. That is procedural pain than = technical merit. > [Lucy] Agree. >=20 > I tend to agree with Dino. If NSH could run as a transport client just = like any other application, we should do that. Otherwise authors should = provide more stronger reasons on why NSH is different and the need for a = new protocol.=20 > [Lucy] The reason that SFC WG charter explicitly states to work on = transport independent SFC protocol is that SFC can be deployed in = different transport networks. Having NSH as an application and a = transport (L4) client is not efficient for many transport networks and = introduce operation complex. >=20 > Lucy >=20 > AFAIK, every protocol started off with being lightweight and simple, = till new one came up :D >=20 > Sam >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Dino Farinacci = wrote: >>=20 >> As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run = over anything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn=E2=80=99t need to = special case NSH. >>=20 >> Like the analogy I used at the mic =E2=80=A6 why doest=E2=80=99t = VXLAN-GPE have a code=20 >> point for DNS? ;-) >>=20 >> Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it = will work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to = work over anything we will build. >>=20 >> NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. >>=20 >> Dino >>=20 >>> On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul = wrote: >>>=20 >>> It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to = allow for small scale environments which don=E2=80=99t need NVO3 = overlays. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>>=20 >>> Paul >>>=20 >>> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM >>> To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas >>> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over = Ethernet? >>>=20 >>> Lucy >>>=20 >>> From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM >>> To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong >>> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I = also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. >>>=20 >>> Lucy, >>> I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested = encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity = in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. >>>=20 >>> I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. >>>=20 >>> Regard, >>> Surendra. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from a thumb typed device. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Alia Atlas >>> Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) >>> To: Lucy yong >>> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = ,=20 >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> >>> I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than = an Ethertype. >>> Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Alia >>> >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong = wrote: >>> Hi Larry, >>>=20 >>> The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Lucy >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger=20= >>> (kreeger) >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM >>> To: sarikaya@ieee.org >>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> Hi Behcet, >>>=20 >>> I=C2=B9m not sure I=C2=B9m following what your point is. It is true = that VXLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be = needed. Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy = brought up a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which = was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the = UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=C2=B9t bring any benefits - = just more overhead and complication. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, Larry >>>=20 >>>> On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)=20 >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi Lucy, >>>>>=20 >>>>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to = avoid=20 >>>>> unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in=20 >>>>> between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can = see=20 >>>>> only additional overhead. >>>>=20 >>>> The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. >>>>=20 >>>> Behcet >>>>> Thanks, Larry >>>>>=20 >>>>> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong=20 >>>>> >>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >>>>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >>>>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>>>=20 >>>>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport=20 >>>>> (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that nsh can use for the=20 >>>>> transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. >>>>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with=20 >>>>> additional security capability. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Lucy >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> nvo3 mailing list >> nvo3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 5 17:35:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD76F1A1A04; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:34:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 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([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:34:44 -0800 From: Lucy yong To: Dino Farinacci Thread-Topic: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRGDLS65VjTuYLlEyLYqcDkvykBZ6ONeoQ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:34:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207D89@dfweml701-chm> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <9F812E1E-F487-4626-A074-8E4F2F836BED@gmail.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207D6B@dfweml701-chm> <86EE498A-ED2E-4400-AFD9-01FF51A52793@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <86EE498A-ED2E-4400-AFD9-01FF51A52793@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.187.136] Content-Type: text/plain; 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[73.189.176.93]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qv5sm10167389pbc.71.2015.11.05.17.35.41 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 17:35:42 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_49931A4A-08BF-44F9-AFF5-1B16309959E5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.1 \(3096.5\)) From: Sam Aldrin In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207D6B@dfweml701-chm> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:35:40 -0800 Message-Id: <6441EBDB-3339-458B-9AA2-F083CB68941D@gmail.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <9F812E1E-F487-4626-A074-8E4F2F836BED@gmail.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207D6B@dfweml701-chm> To: Lucy yong X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3096.5) Archived-At: Cc: "Surendra Kumar \(smkumar\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , Dino Farinacci , Larry Kreeger Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 01:35:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_49931A4A-08BF-44F9-AFF5-1B16309959E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 5, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Lucy yong wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Need for a new protocol should not be based on how hard or easy it is = easy to get ethertype or UDP port. That is procedural pain than = technical merit. > [Lucy] Agree. >=20 > I tend to agree with Dino. If NSH could run as a transport client just = like any other application, we should do that. Otherwise authors should = provide more stronger reasons on why NSH is different and the need for a = new protocol.=20 > [Lucy] The reason that SFC WG charter explicitly states to work on = transport independent SFC protocol is that SFC can be deployed in = different transport networks. We have IP and it works,=20 > Having NSH as an application and a transport (L4) client is not = efficient for many transport networks and introduce operation complex. May be, May be not. That is something to be brought forth to make a = strong case for. -sam >=20 > Lucy >=20 > AFAIK, every protocol started off with being lightweight and simple, = till new one came up :D >=20 > Sam >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Dino Farinacci = wrote: >>=20 >> As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run = over anything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn=E2=80=99t need to = special case NSH. >>=20 >> Like the analogy I used at the mic =E2=80=A6 why doest=E2=80=99t = VXLAN-GPE have a code=20 >> point for DNS? ;-) >>=20 >> Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it = will work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to = work over anything we will build. >>=20 >> NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. >>=20 >> Dino >>=20 >>> On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul = wrote: >>>=20 >>> It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to = allow for small scale environments which don=E2=80=99t need NVO3 = overlays. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>>=20 >>> Paul >>>=20 >>> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM >>> To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas >>> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over = Ethernet? >>>=20 >>> Lucy >>>=20 >>> From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM >>> To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong >>> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I = also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. >>>=20 >>> Lucy, >>> I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested = encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity = in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. >>>=20 >>> I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. >>>=20 >>> Regard, >>> Surendra. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Sent from a thumb typed device. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -------- Original message -------- >>> From: Alia Atlas >>> Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) >>> To: Lucy yong >>> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = ,=20 >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> >>> I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than = an Ethertype. >>> Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. >>>=20 >>> Regards, >>> Alia >>> >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong = wrote: >>> Hi Larry, >>>=20 >>> The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Lucy >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger=20= >>> (kreeger) >>> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM >>> To: sarikaya@ieee.org >>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>=20 >>> Hi Behcet, >>>=20 >>> I=C2=B9m not sure I=C2=B9m following what your point is. It is true = that VXLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be = needed. Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy = brought up a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which = was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the = UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=C2=B9t bring any benefits - = just more overhead and complication. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, Larry >>>=20 >>>> On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)=20 >>>> wrote: >>>>> Hi Lucy, >>>>>=20 >>>>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to = avoid=20 >>>>> unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in=20 >>>>> between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can = see=20 >>>>> only additional overhead. >>>>=20 >>>> The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. >>>>=20 >>>> Behcet >>>>> Thanks, Larry >>>>>=20 >>>>> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong=20 >>>>> >>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >>>>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >>>>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>>>=20 >>>>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport=20 >>>>> (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that nsh can use for the=20 >>>>> transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. >>>>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with=20 >>>>> additional security capability. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Lucy >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> nvo3 mailing list >> nvo3@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc = --Apple-Mail=_49931A4A-08BF-44F9-AFF5-1B16309959E5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Nov 5, 2015, at 5:28 PM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:



Need for a new protocol should not be = based on how hard or easy it is easy to get ethertype or UDP port. That = is procedural pain than technical merit.
[Lucy] Agree.

I tend to agree with Dino. If NSH could = run as a transport client just like any other application, we should do = that. Otherwise authors should provide more stronger reasons on why NSH = is different and the need for a new protocol. 
[Lucy] The reason that SFC = WG charter explicitly states to work on transport independent SFC = protocol is that SFC can be deployed in different transport = networks.
We have IP and it works, 
Having NSH as an application and a transport = (L4) client is not efficient for many transport networks and introduce = operation complex.
May be, May be not. That is something = to be brought forth to make a strong case for.

-sam

Lucy

AFAIK, every protocol = started off with being lightweight and simple, till new one came up = :D

Sam

Sent from my iPhone

On = Nov 5, 2015, at 4:21 PM, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>= wrote:

As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH = runs over UDP/IP, then it can run over anything. And then every = encapsulation spec doesn=E2=80=99t need to special case NSH.

Like the analogy I used at the mic =E2=80=A6 = why doest=E2=80=99t VXLAN-GPE have a code 
point for = DNS?  ;-)

Answer: it makes no sense. = Run NSH as a transport layer client and it will work over everything we = have already built and has a good chance to work over anything we will = build.

NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP = is for email.

Dino

On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 = PM, Bottorff, Paul <paul.bottorff@hpe.com> wrote:

It is definitely a useful option to run directly over = Ethernet to allow for small scale environments which don=E2=80=99t need = NVO3 overlays.

Cheers,

Paul

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM
To: = Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; = Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on = draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

If SFC is = deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet?

Lucy

From: = Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, = November 05, 2015 4:12 AM
To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on = draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

I did go = through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also have = obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia.

Lucy,
I appreciate you guys = taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply = calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formulating and = processing such a packet along the tunnel path.

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do.

Regard,
Surendra.



Sent from a = thumb typed device.


-------- = Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy = yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, = "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@cisco.com>, 
sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on = draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

<no-hats>
I think that getting a UDP port = is a lot more straightforward than an Ethertype.
Not = having extra bytes is also an advantage.

Regards,
Alia
</no-hats>

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong = <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:
Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP = transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original = Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Larry Kreeger 
(kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM
To: = sarikaya@ieee.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

Hi Behcet,

I=C2=B9m not sure = I=C2=B9m following what your point is.  It is true that VXLAN-GPE = also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. =  Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy = brought up a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which = was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in = between the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=C2=B9t bring any = benefits - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" = <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

On = Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) 
<kreeger@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Lucy,

One of = the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid 
unnecessary = overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header in 
between does =  not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see 
only = additional  overhead.

The = point was not with VXLAN-GPE.

Behcet
Thanks, Larry

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of Lucy yong 
<lucy.yong@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, = November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
To: "sfc@ietf.org" = <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: [sfc] comment on = draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

There is = a gre/udp tunnel transport 
(draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that  nsh can use for = the 
transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh.
The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs = with 
additional security capability.



Lucy


_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
nvo3 mailing list
nvo3@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3
_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

= --Apple-Mail=_49931A4A-08BF-44F9-AFF5-1B16309959E5-- From nobody Thu Nov 5 17:50:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247D11A8788; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:50:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMJH-6-GmVqX; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 17:50:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EF1A1B2AC1; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 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<2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <9F812E1E-F487-4626-A074-8E4F2F836BED@gmail.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207D6B@dfweml701-chm> <6441EBDB-3339-458B-9AA2-F083CB68941D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6441EBDB-3339-458B-9AA2-F083CB68941D@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.194.187.136] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207DB6dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.563C0773.0113, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 3306a0997bcfea404ea025cc59bcdae7 Archived-At: Cc: "Surendra Kumar \(smkumar\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , Dino Farinacci , Larry Kreeger Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 01:50:50 -0000 --_000_2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207DB6dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCg0KTmVlZCBmb3IgYSBuZXcgcHJvdG9jb2wgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBiYXNlZCBvbiBob3cg aGFyZCBvciBlYXN5IGl0IGlzIGVhc3kgdG8gZ2V0IGV0aGVydHlwZSBvciBVRFAgcG9ydC4gVGhh dCBpcyBwcm9jZWR1cmFsIHBhaW4gdGhhbiB0ZWNobmljYWwgbWVyaXQuDQpbTHVjeV0gQWdyZWUu DQoNCkkgdGVuZCB0byBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIERpbm8uIElmIE5TSCBjb3VsZCBydW4gYXMgYSB0cmFu c3BvcnQgY2xpZW50IGp1c3QgbGlrZSBhbnkgb3RoZXIgYXBwbGljYXRpb24sIHdlIHNob3VsZCBk byB0aGF0LiBPdGhlcndpc2UgYXV0aG9ycyBzaG91bGQgcHJvdmlkZSBtb3JlIHN0cm9uZ2VyIHJl 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X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,251,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="205636533" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2015 07:20:59 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-006.cisco.com (xch-aln-006.cisco.com [173.36.7.16]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA67KxMJ004610 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:20:59 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-ALN-006.cisco.com (173.36.7.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:20:59 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:20:59 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: Lucy yong , Dave Dolson , "Alia Atlas" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nbb+AgAADXYCAABlgAIAAANEA//+qQpWAAJWuAIAAAuKA//+qHBCAAOsZgIAAMgQQ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 07:20:59 +0000 Message-ID: <8575342074bc4514ba829e99ebfc2b7c@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm>, <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm>, <0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf5.1446732352825@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207BB5@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207BB5@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.5.248] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8575342074bc4514ba829e99ebfc2b7cXCHRCD020ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 07:21:06 -0000 --_000_8575342074bc4514ba829e99ebfc2b7cXCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not sure why you would run UDP directly over L2. It is just a mac-in-mac. Surendra. From: Lucy yong [mailto:lucy.yong@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:12 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Dave Dolson ; Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger) ; sfc@iet= f.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 8:10 AM To: Dave Dolson; Lucy yong; Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Layer2 tunnels are just fine, they provide topological freedom. [Lucy] UDP can't be over L2 directly. You need Ethertype for NSH in L2 sp= ace. Lucy Surendra Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Dave Dolson > Date: 2015/11/05 10:17 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong >, "Surendr= a Kumar (smkumar)" >, Alia Atla= s > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I find it to be a useful concept when SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connecti= ons. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? Lucy From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also ha= ve obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. Lucy, I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encaps= ulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formula= ting and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. Regard, Surendra. Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Alia Atlas > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ether= type. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" > wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc > on behalf = of Lucy yong >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_8575342074bc4514ba829e99ebfc2b7cXCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
 =

Not sure wh=
y you would run UDP directly over L2. It is just a mac-in-mac.
 =

Surendra.

 

From: Lucy yong [mailto:lucy.yong@hu= awei.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:12 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) <smkumar@cisco.com>; Dave Dolson = <ddolson@sandvine.com>; Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger) <kreeger@cisco.com= >; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 8:10 AM
To: Dave Dolson; Lucy yong; Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

Layer2 tunnels are just fine, they provide topologic= al freedom.

[Lucy] UDP can’t be over = L2 directly.   You need Ethertype for NSH in L2 space.=

 

Lucy<= /p>

 

Surendra

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandv= ine.com>
Date: 2015/11/05 10:17 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>, "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" <smkumar@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

I find it to be a useful concept when= SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connections.

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

 

If SFC is deployed in Ethernet networ= k, do we need NSH over Ethernet?

 

Lucy

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM
To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

 

I did go through the process of getting the ethertyp= e for NSH and I also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree= with Alia.

 

Lucy,

I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE= over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead an= d complexity in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel p= ath.

 

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certain= ly do.

 

Regard,

Surendra.

 

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com= >
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

<no-hats>

I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straig= htforward than an Ethertype.

Not having extra bytes is also an advantage.

 

Regards,

Alia 

</no-hats>

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kr= eeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM
To: sarikaya= @ieee.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<= /a>
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-tr= ansport

Hi Behcet,

I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is.  It is true that VX= LAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. = Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy brought up = a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in be= tween the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefit= s - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does  not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see =AD
>>only additional  overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that  nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
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--_000_8575342074bc4514ba829e99ebfc2b7cXCHRCD020ciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 00:59:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37131AD05F; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:59:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q1Ec6kHpxID8; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 912101ACE53; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 00:59:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6163; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446800383; x=1448009983; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=qwt5S6gVOl0RgJsWbuSsYEDR9XK9Gdy/nDBsv2Q9Tfk=; b=GV3xFu90uOFyKlOx8mPa8kiD4Iw1+c0F7PMipoeLzn5bCXfusv9XrE5c 7sgRAcNhZvXZiLaLUpj7mJj8vYvn+j6PnCfEnWjd6qqfHtXx5GV9GfGTw 5iR73j/oBttWl0KqUPlWcnGw7ywdYNqx+4ZWSoR/XEdpsj7r2ndxZKRAj 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AeAgCpazxW/4oNJK1egztTbwa+DgENgWAXCoIZg1YCgTY4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEBAwEBAQFrCwUHBAIBCBEDAQEBAScHIQYLFAkIAgQOBQiIEQMKCA28Sw2EPgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEi1KCU4FXEQGEfQWNVIUTg2EBiy+BbYFih2WLMoNgg3EBHwEBQoIOAx2BVnKDUzqBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,251,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="204968651" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2015 08:59:42 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (xch-aln-009.cisco.com [173.36.7.19]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA68xgrC011613 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:59:42 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 02:59:41 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 02:59:41 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: Dino Farinacci , "Bottorff, Paul" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nbb+AgAADXYCAABlgAIAAANEA//+qQpWAAJWuAIAAuVMAgAAC+oCAACcFIA== Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:59:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.5.248] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 08:59:45 -0000 Agree it would run everywhere if NSH is treated as an *application*, as you= point out. The conflict is in how NSH wants to be transport independent. It is suppose= d to be a feature than violation of layering: proper layering vs. overhead,= as shown below. IP-strata | IP | UDP | NSH |=20 IP-strata | IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE | IP | UDP | NSH | Ignoring, other encapsulation of NSH, carrying NSH directly over UDP does m= aintain that layering while removing the overhead. This draft is doing the = right thing. Surendra. -----Original Message----- From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:21 PM To: Bottorff, Paul Cc: Lucy Yong ; Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Alia Atlas ; sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (= kreeger) ; sfc@ietf.org; Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run over an= ything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn't need to special case NSH. Like the analogy I used at the mic . why doest't VXLAN-GPE have a code poin= t for DNS? ;-) Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it will = work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to work ov= er anything we will build. NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. Dino > On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul wrote: >=20 > It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to allow f= or small scale environments which don't need NVO3 overlays. > =20 > Cheers, > =20 > Paul > =20 > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM > To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > =20 > If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? > =20 > Lucy > =20 > From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM > To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > =20 > I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also = have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. > =20 > Lucy, > I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested enca= psulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formu= lating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. > =20 > I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. > =20 > Regard, > Surendra. > =20 > =20 > =20 > Sent from a thumb typed device. >=20 >=20 > -------- Original message -------- > From: Alia Atlas =20 > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)=20 > To: Lucy yong =20 > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , sfc= @ietf.org=20 > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=20 >=20 > =20 > I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Eth= ertype. > Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. > =20 > Regards, > Alia=20 > > =20 > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong wrote: > Hi Larry, >=20 > The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. >=20 > Thanks, > Lucy >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeg= er) > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM > To: sarikaya@ieee.org > Cc: sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >=20 > Hi Behcet, >=20 > I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN= -GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carryin= g NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option = that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over= UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my = opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. >=20 > Thanks, Larry >=20 > On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >=20 > >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) > > wrote: > >> Hi Lucy, > >> > >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid > >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in > >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD > >>only additional overhead. > >> > > > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > > > >Behcet > >> Thanks, Larry > >> > >> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong > >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM > >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > >> > >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) > >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an > >>Ethertype for nsh. > >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional > >>security capability. > >> > >> > >> > >> Lucy > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sfc mailing list > >> sfc@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > >> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > =20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Fri Nov 6 01:07:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285AF1B2C46; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:07:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yhX0gnXYpUKx; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 182FA1B2BEA; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5B31C0711; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (122x210x83x163.ap122.ftth.ucom.ne.jp [122.210.83.163]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 684801C0214; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:07:02 -0800 (PST) To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Dino Farinacci , "Bottorff, Paul" References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <563C6DB4.1060707@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 04:07:00 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 09:07:06 -0000 I am having trouble understanding the conversation. We have a clear agreement that we are not going to standardize on transport for NSH. And even more that we are not going to pick "one". So yes, this draft describes a valid and useful way to transport NSH. there are many such. Yours, Joel On 11/6/15 3:59 AM, Surendra Kumar (smkumar) wrote: > Agree it would run everywhere if NSH is treated as an *application*, as you point out. > > The conflict is in how NSH wants to be transport independent. It is supposed to be a feature than violation of layering: proper layering vs. overhead, as shown below. > > IP-strata | IP | UDP | NSH | > IP-strata | IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE | IP | UDP | NSH | > > Ignoring, other encapsulation of NSH, carrying NSH directly over UDP does maintain that layering while removing the overhead. This draft is doing the right thing. > > Surendra. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:21 PM > To: Bottorff, Paul > Cc: Lucy Yong ; Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Alia Atlas ; sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger) ; sfc@ietf.org; > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run over anything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn't need to special case NSH. > > Like the analogy I used at the mic . why doest't VXLAN-GPE have a code point for DNS? ;-) > > Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it will work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to work over anything we will build. > > NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. > > Dino > >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul wrote: >> >> It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to allow for small scale environments which don't need NVO3 overlays. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Paul >> >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM >> To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? >> >> Lucy >> >> From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM >> To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. >> >> Lucy, >> I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. >> >> I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. >> >> Regard, >> Surendra. >> >> >> >> Sent from a thumb typed device. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Alia Atlas >> Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) >> To: Lucy yong >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> >> I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ethertype. >> Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. >> >> Regards, >> Alia >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong wrote: >> Hi Larry, >> >> The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. >> >> Thanks, >> Lucy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM >> To: sarikaya@ieee.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> Hi Behcet, >> >> I¹m not sure I¹m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn¹t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. >> >> Thanks, Larry >> >> On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >>> wrote: >>>> Hi Lucy, >>>> >>>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>>> unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>>> between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see ­ >>>> only additional overhead. >>>> >>> >>> The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. >>> >>> Behcet >>>> Thanks, Larry >>>> >>>> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong >>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >>>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >>>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>> >>>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>>> that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>>> Ethertype for nsh. >>>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>>> security capability. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lucy >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > _______________________________________________ > nvo3 mailing list > nvo3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3 > From nobody Fri Nov 6 01:42:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 570321B3800; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:42:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JTpJJLWrYqib; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:42:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F346E1B37F9; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 01:41:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7474; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446802920; x=1448012520; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=V71ufbQpgWoAKAMc8ayldmYBEQrNmYa86Pv35ieKqjY=; b=GivaevGIA0jwQzYODuVbwH0j2VaTrUcJ54mrmhxd2rggftQbwHvnuE8M kFV/Aj+lokN55EqrYVLYk+XctajJqGJ8N3Dhf85wvO6vW+A3fz2P1muyM AS3Yy9vn/s97ysEZ8MJ2KFFN5UZGtgt5CIUcdPtlePi8CBw1iyTZ6uuZx c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AeAgAEdTxW/5BdJa1egztTbwa+FwENgWAXCoVvAoE2OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBAQQBAQFrCwwEAgEIEQMBAQEBJwchBgsUCQgCBAENBQiIEQMSDbxIDYQ+AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASLUoJTgVcRAYR9BY1UhRODYQGLL4FtgWKHZYsyg2CDcQEfAQFCgg4DHYFWcoNTOoEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,251,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="204978487" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2015 09:41:59 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (xch-rcd-010.cisco.com [173.37.102.20]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA69fwDf000807 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:41:58 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (173.37.102.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 03:41:58 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 03:41:58 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Dino Farinacci , "Bottorff, Paul" Thread-Topic: [nvo3] [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nbb+AgAADXYCAABlgAIAAANEA//+qQpWAAJWuAIAAuVMAgAAC+oCAACcFIIAAa9EA//+cE4A= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 09:41:58 +0000 Message-ID: <5f7cdb0380e34c8d82c82892f070766e@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <563C6DB4.1060707@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <563C6DB4.1060707@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.5.248] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 09:42:02 -0000 -----Original Message----- From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]=20 Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 1:07 AM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Dino Farinacci ; Bottorff, Paul Cc: sfc@ietf.org; ; Lucy Yong ; Alia Atlas ; sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger = (kreeger) Subject: Re: [nvo3] [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I am having trouble understanding the conversation. We have a clear agreement that we are not going to standardize on transport= for NSH. SK> Is the charter written in stone that it is not amendable, if gaps are f= ound ? And even more that we are not going to pick "one". SK> Charter has a gap here. It is equivalent of designing a car without the= wheels. And wheels are not accessories. Surendra. So yes, this draft describes a valid and useful way to transport NSH.=20 there are many such. Yours, Joel On 11/6/15 3:59 AM, Surendra Kumar (smkumar) wrote: > Agree it would run everywhere if NSH is treated as an *application*, as y= ou point out. > > The conflict is in how NSH wants to be transport independent. It is suppo= sed to be a feature than violation of layering: proper layering vs. overhea= d, as shown below. > > IP-strata | IP | UDP | NSH | > IP-strata | IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE | IP | UDP | NSH | > > Ignoring, other encapsulation of NSH, carrying NSH directly over UDP does= maintain that layering while removing the overhead. This draft is doing th= e right thing. > > Surendra. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:21 PM > To: Bottorff, Paul > Cc: Lucy Yong ; Surendra Kumar (smkumar)=20 > ; Alia Atlas ;=20 > sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger) ;=20 > sfc@ietf.org; > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run over = anything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn't need to special case NS= H. > > Like the analogy I used at the mic . why doest't VXLAN-GPE have a code=20 > point for DNS? ;-) > > Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it wil= l work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to work = over anything we will build. > > NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. > > Dino > >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul wrote= : >> >> It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to allow = for small scale environments which don't need NVO3 overlays. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Paul >> >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM >> To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? >> >> Lucy >> >> From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM >> To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also= have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. >> >> Lucy, >> I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested enc= apsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in form= ulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. >> >> I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. >> >> Regard, >> Surendra. >> >> >> >> Sent from a thumb typed device. >> >> >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Alia Atlas >> Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) >> To: Lucy yong >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" ,=20 >> sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> >> I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Et= hertype. >> Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. >> >> Regards, >> Alia >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong wrote: >> Hi Larry, >> >> The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. >> >> Thanks, >> Lucy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger=20 >> (kreeger) >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM >> To: sarikaya@ieee.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> Hi Behcet, >> >> I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLA= N-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carryi= ng NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option= that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE ove= r UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my= opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication= . >> >> Thanks, Larry >> >> On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)=20 >>> wrote: >>>> Hi Lucy, >>>> >>>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid=20 >>>> unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in=20 >>>> between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see=20 >>>> =AD only additional overhead. >>>> >>> >>> The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. >>> >>> Behcet >>>> Thanks, Larry >>>> >>>> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong=20 >>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >>>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >>>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>> >>>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport=20 >>>> (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that nsh can use for the=20 >>>> transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. >>>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with=20 >>>> additional security capability. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Lucy >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > _______________________________________________ > nvo3 mailing list > nvo3@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nvo3 > From nobody Fri Nov 6 04:36:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FD571A00DF; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 04:36:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZsfABRIcthC9; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 04:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com (mail-pa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A0A41A00DC; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 04:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by pasz6 with SMTP id z6so126343433pas.2; Fri, 06 Nov 2015 04:36:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=aW2AXEpcbGLsOnTQP7zJv926p57PSzsv3/D69d+F+gE=; b=kngI/w5XPjpJWcy8gmNZex6e0ovnMdpWGzT8A+bvCAsxIbNC66+kaxAQ9bJ8lujFGN 6OZJ6lcXnWs11l4dMYVvjNjSyDAqD4LyE3N80KZD/oghBh8SmcNooPc9iBVOxOFEvK3s I4tR6czVnFN4Fx9z2Kt3JRABpc+Ix98hfT1V2IVyToSFO8GOilPRPpHsUelufUQ5YSNW FmOgotkQUO6Eypczb0J2HuYFv9BhinE3SUu6kLxYKt2bgxG1jTjmn+gmw7m5ouuJfwpq rTg4FVEk5B6R3H3OrUayTbiPTkZWHXGuVfrd9bm0vLi9Ns3rZcH1xTa2uwcxsw9lQ8NQ 8HJw== X-Received: by 10.68.133.133 with SMTP id pc5mr17517964pbb.93.1446813372871; Fri, 06 Nov 2015 04:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.71.7.211] ([101.110.53.38]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id pq1sm13899945pbb.91.2015.11.06.04.36.11 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Nov 2015 04:36:12 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Dino Farinacci X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13B143) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:36:10 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0A891D0C-2D9C-4828-8BDE-706C56826315@gmail.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 12:36:15 -0000 I'm having problems parsing your text.=20 But what I can say is that if NSH is to run over an overlay, then VXLAN can b= e colocated with an NSH hop, be the next hop, or be many hops away.=20 If there is no overlay in the network, NSH doesn't need VXLAN.=20 There is no reason to have this coupling.=20 When does DNS use VXLAN? Answer: when there is an overlay in the network. Wh= en does DNS use MPLS? Answer: when packets traverse a core network with MPLS= network.=20 That doesn't mean DNS is spec'ed to run over VXLAN or MPLS. But DNS is tran= sport independent.=20 Dino > On Nov 6, 2015, at 5:59 PM, Surendra Kumar (smkumar) w= rote: >=20 > Agree it would run everywhere if NSH is treated as an *application*, as yo= u point out. >=20 > The conflict is in how NSH wants to be transport independent. It is suppos= ed to be a feature than violation of layering: proper layering vs. overhead,= as shown below. >=20 > IP-strata | IP | UDP | NSH |=20 > IP-strata | IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE | IP | UDP | NSH | >=20 > Ignoring, other encapsulation of NSH, carrying NSH directly over UDP does m= aintain that layering while removing the overhead. This draft is doing the r= ight thing. >=20 > Surendra. >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:21 PM > To: Bottorff, Paul > Cc: Lucy Yong ; Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Alia Atlas ; sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (= kreeger) ; sfc@ietf.org; > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >=20 > As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run over a= nything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn't need to special case NSH.= >=20 > Like the analogy I used at the mic . why doest't VXLAN-GPE have a code poi= nt for DNS? ;-) >=20 > Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it will= work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to work ov= er anything we will build. >=20 > NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. >=20 > Dino >=20 >> On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul wrote:= >>=20 >> It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to allow f= or small scale environments which don't need NVO3 overlays. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> Paul >>=20 >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM >> To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>=20 >> If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? >>=20 >> Lucy >>=20 >> From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]=20 >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM >> To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>=20 >> I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also h= ave obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. >>=20 >> Lucy, >> I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested enca= psulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formul= ating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. >>=20 >> I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. >>=20 >> Regard, >> Surendra. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Sent from a thumb typed device. >>=20 >>=20 >> -------- Original message -------- >> From: Alia Atlas =20 >> Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)=20 >> To: Lucy yong =20 >> Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , sfc= @ietf.org=20 >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=20 >>=20 >> =20 >> I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Eth= ertype. >> Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Alia=20 >> >>=20 >> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong wrote: >> Hi Larry, >>=20 >> The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Lucy >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeg= er) >> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM >> To: sarikaya@ieee.org >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>=20 >> Hi Behcet, >>=20 >> I=C2=B9m not sure I=C2=B9m following what your point is. It is true that= VXLAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Ca= rrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new opt= ion that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE o= ver UDP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in m= y opinion doesn=C2=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complicat= ion. >>=20 >> Thanks, Larry >>=20 >>> On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >>> wrote: >>>> Hi Lucy, >>>>=20 >>>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>>> unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>>> between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =C2= =AD >>>> only additional overhead. >>>=20 >>> The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. >>>=20 >>> Behcet >>>> Thanks, Larry >>>>=20 >>>> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong >>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >>>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >>>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >>>>=20 >>>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>>> that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>>> Ethertype for nsh. >>>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>>> security capability. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Lucy >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 From nobody Fri Nov 6 07:00:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6337A1A9032; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:00:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kz6VC6jI5-YH; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:00:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28AD61A9031; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 06:00:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=701; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446818450; x=1448028050; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=tOIe/DRfg1ncKT77f5poGzLBzyLRMglOi+eVw6QCfQQ=; b=UhhoeaFxIT4YP42vrjEsB6aSVBVVUfYnJDCz6UG5K7QtE/3IUY1Cpknp aU5Ja9T+zSKJnTYzLcyJup1n4fVqnVrRcjxUz7K9wO4I6lVhHWFPLP6Gl ei3lIo/Wd+CJTvNNAzlDyHBAM8x/NG4z8HoEO3ZAwF5i4PcL9s3KVox2Q 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AiBQCFsTxW/5NdJa1egzuBQgbADoYQAoEzPBABAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBAQMBeQULAgEIGC4yJQIEDgWIJgjBbgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARiGVIIQgm6EWYNLgRUBBJZIAY0knEMBOCuEBHKEDYEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,252,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="42565529" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2015 14:00:49 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-010.cisco.com (xch-aln-010.cisco.com [173.36.7.20]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA6E0n7R009511 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 6 Nov 2015 14:00:49 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-ALN-010.cisco.com (173.36.7.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:00:48 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:00:48 -0600 From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" Thread-Topic: [nvo3] [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRGHGAVtZgJPIGsUekb37SdIaQfp6PGK8AgABSFYA= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 14:00:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <563C6DB4.1060707@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <563C6DB4.1060707@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 07:00:53 -0800 Cc: "Surendra Kumar \(smkumar\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , Dino Farinacci , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 14:00:51 -0000 > On Nov 6, 2015, at 4:07 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > I am having trouble understanding the conversation. > We have a clear agreement that we are not going to standardize on transpo= rt for NSH. > And even more that we are not going to pick "one". >=20 I agree. It seems that we are trying to solve a problem that doesn't need = to be solved. =20 If an operator wants to use UDP/NSH in their environment, so be it. Simila= rly, if they chose to use VXLAN-GPE or something else, so be it. NSH doesn= 't care, and nor should we. > So yes, this draft describes a valid and useful way to transport NSH. the= re are many such. >=20 > Yours, > Joel From nobody Fri Nov 6 08:05:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448EB1ACD69 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:05:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RPXpKxcOFbde for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E3591ACD5E for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 08:05:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3736; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446825928; x=1448035528; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=CtYg+aZBzIVeMWABvM5tWcAOCq3bRyYiH+q26ZSyclc=; b=CBmQ3uh0C7XmhsqeFp/XLk3c+HJFYYXWOsUVAznf1f+5Qlwyi/ukHMM1 6i6sooCgtPiq+grzG6noYZ6WHgVAZzIybZnGe1lyXpFOgpZ9TMC3Nja92 xSt5jzmXX+LWhY9R2fr1vWvwDHp1vfsmJWa6AX2tr7acV5BR7erpL0VW7 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ALGwCQzjxW/4UNJK1egztTTiEGviEBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFgIYVvgTg4FAEBAQEBAQF/C4Q8OlEBPkInBByIJQ2hHKBTAQEBAQEBAQECAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEYhlSCEIJugUABgnoBAQtFgxeBFQWHRI8EAXuEIYgIgVtJkU2IU?= =?us-ascii?q?gEfAQFCgh6BZnIBg1I6gQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,252,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="205219360" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 06 Nov 2015 16:05:27 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (xch-rcd-009.cisco.com [173.37.102.19]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA6G5Ra7003669 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 16:05:27 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:05:26 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 10:05:26 -0600 From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Responses to NSH open tickets Thread-Index: AQHRGKzzwNMRn7ESEEWTNnkkiNG1Nw== Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 16:05:26 +0000 Message-ID: <1E890AFD-822D-44F0-95E5-72F507FFE1F1@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <16646EB63A131349A6EFFE48DBA90DD6@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Responses to NSH open tickets X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 16:05:35 -0000 Hi, Below is my analysis and responses to the NSH tracking tickets and my sugge= sted actions/next steps. Thanks Paul ------------ Ticket #1: Add a new field to include the SFC Identifier http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/1 Reply: The current NSH draft specifies a pathID, this has proven simple and viable= to implement. Implementation may (and do) utilize that pathID to represen= t an abstract or specific path. If further specificty is desired, the NSH = metadata may be used to carry other path information. I do not plan to upd= ate the draft, given that there is no WG consensus for any changes. Ticket #2: Remove "MD Type" field and the companion "MD-type 1" http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/2 Reply: Having the ability specify formats for NSH has proven very useful. = This was raised on on list and there was no consensus for change, I recomme= nd this item be marked as resolved in the tracker. Ticket #3: Critical Metadata http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/3 Reply: it is unclear what suggested action is being requested. If further= clarification of critical metadata in required, text can be added to the d= raft, subject to WG review. Ticket #4: Reuse the IPFIX registry for identifying context types http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/4 Reply: The 400+ IPFIX information elements were created for a protocol for= IP Flow Information Export, and thus it would not be optimal to reuse as there are many unneeded things. Consensus seems to want to prioritize pr= ecision over blind reuse. I do not plan to update the draft and suggest th= at this item be marked as resolved in the tracker. Ticket #5: Support of SF Spirals http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/5 Reply: This was answered on the list: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/= sfc/current/msg03188.html and therefore no changes are needed. Given that,= this item can be marked as resolved. Ticket #6: Version Handling https://tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/6 Reply: Discussed on list: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sfc/current/= msg03149.html. There was no consensus to changed the adopted format, in fa= ct the value of version bits seems well accepted and therefore no changes a= re needed and the topic should be marked as resolved in the tracker. Ticket #7: reserved bits http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/7 Reply: This text seems like a helpful clarification. Barring objection, it= can be added to the draft. Ticket #8:=20 http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/8 Reply: NSH and the use case draft seem consistent. However, it would be he= lpful for the use case drafts to reference the allocations drafts, and vice= versa to provide a consistent view for readers. =20 Ticket #9: Remove Section 2.2 http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/9 Reply: The current version of the draft states: "A short reference is incl= uded below, RFC 7498 [RFC7498], provides a more comprehensive review of the SFC Problem Statement." That seems like a= reasonable approach, and propose marking this item as resolved. Ticket #10: O bit http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/10 Reply: Reserving a bit for OAM is acceptable, and done in other protocol sp= ecifications. OAM-specific drafts exist and will leverage the presence of = the bit. Further, over time new OAM uses may arise, having the explicit a= bility to support them day-0 is key. The O bit was agreed upon by the WG du= ring adoption, and there is no consensus to remove it. I propose that a re= ference be added to the OAM framework draft. ---------------= From nobody Fri Nov 6 13:28:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E86F1A03A6 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 13:28:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qBVqV87gSEH5 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 13:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from g4t3425.houston.hp.com (g4t3425.houston.hp.com [15.201.208.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2424E1A0398 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 13:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from G9W0364.americas.hpqcorp.net (g9w0364.houston.hp.com [16.216.193.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by g4t3425.houston.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0A3965; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:28:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from G9W3614.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.216.186.49) by G9W0364.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.216.193.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.169.1; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:26:37 +0000 Received: from G4W3293.americas.hpqcorp.net ([169.254.2.227]) by G9W3614.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.216.186.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:26:37 +0000 From: "Fedyk, Don" To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Lucy yong , Dave Dolson , Alia Atlas Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656NCSqAgAADXYCAABlfAIAAANIAgAAO1gCAADEaAIAAAuKAgAAOsQCAAIaEgIAAmW2AgADpe3A= Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:26:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm>, <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm>, <0by1y3xsqdhwe9stsmw39mf5.1446732352825@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207BB5@dfweml701-chm> <8575342074bc4514ba829e99ebfc2b7c@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8575342074bc4514ba829e99ebfc2b7c@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [16.216.65.175] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A46D9C092EA46F489F135060986AD9FF22222B1FG4W3293americas_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 21:28:30 -0000 --_000_A46D9C092EA46F489F135060986AD9FF22222B1FG4W3293americas_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Surendra https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fedyk-sfc-mac-chain/ describes why = you would want to run directly over L2 and it does not have to be MAC in MA= C can be just MAC in fact just a local assigned mac (and much simpler to i= mplement on many devices too.) In this case NSH is simple an Ethernet TAG = and it can follow a MAC addresses or a VLAN TAG. Cheers, Don From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar (smkuma= r) Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 2:21 AM To: Lucy yong; Dave Dolson; Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Not sure why you would run UDP directly over L2. It is just a mac-in-mac. Surendra. From: Lucy yong [mailto:lucy.yong@huawei.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:12 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) >;= Dave Dolson >; Alia Atla= s > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 8:10 AM To: Dave Dolson; Lucy yong; Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Layer2 tunnels are just fine, they provide topological freedom. [Lucy] UDP can't be over L2 directly. You need Ethertype for NSH in L2 sp= ace. Lucy Surendra Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Dave Dolson > Date: 2015/11/05 10:17 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong >, "Surendr= a Kumar (smkumar)" >, Alia Atla= s > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I find it to be a useful concept when SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connecti= ons. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? Lucy From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); s= fc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I also ha= ve obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. Lucy, I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested encaps= ulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in formula= ting and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. Regard, Surendra. Sent from a thumb typed device. -------- Original message -------- From: Alia Atlas > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) To: Lucy yong > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" = >, sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an Ether= type. Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. Regards, Alia On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: Hi Larry, The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. Thanks, Lucy -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM To: sarikaya@ieee.org Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Behcet, I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXLAN-G= PE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying = NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option th= at I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over U= DP. This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my op= inion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complication. Thanks, Larry On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" > wrote: >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) >> wrote: >> Hi Lucy, >> >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see =AD >>only additional overhead. >> > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > >Behcet >> Thanks, Larry >> >> From: sfc > on behalf = of Lucy yong >> > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >> >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) >>that nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an >>Ethertype for nsh. >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additional >>security capability. >> >> >> >> Lucy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_A46D9C092EA46F489F135060986AD9FF22222B1FG4W3293americas_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Surendra

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-f= edyk-sfc-mac-chain/  describes why you would want to run directly over L2 and it does not have to be MAC in MAC can be = just MAC  in fact just a local assigned mac (and much simpler t= o implement on many devices too.)  In this case NSH is simple an Ether= net TAG and it can follow a MAC addresses or a VLAN TAG.

 

Cheers,

Don

 

 

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.o= rg] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar (smkumar)
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 2:21 AM
To: Lucy yong; Dave Dolson; Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

 =

Not sure wh=
y you would run UDP directly over L2. It is just a mac-in-mac.
 =

Surendra.

 

From: Lucy yong [mailto:lucy.yong@huawei.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 2:12 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) <smkumar@cisco.com>; Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>; Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larr= y Kreeger (kreeger) <kreeger@cisco.= com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 8:10 AM
To: Dave Dolson; Lucy yong; Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport=

 

Layer2 tunnels are just fine, they provide topologic= al freedom.

[Lucy] UDP can’t be over = L2 directly.   You need Ethertype for NSH in L2 space.=

 

Lucy<= /p>

 

Surendra

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandv= ine.com>
Date: 2015/11/05 10:17 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>, "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" <smkumar@cisco.com>, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

I find it to be a useful concept when= SFF and SF nodes have layer2 connections.

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 10:08 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

 

If SFC is deployed in Ethernet networ= k, do we need NSH over Ethernet?

 

Lucy

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM
To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport

 

I did go through the process of getting the ethertyp= e for NSH and I also have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree= with Alia.

 

Lucy,

I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE= over UDP nested encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead an= d complexity in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel p= ath.

 

I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certain= ly do.

 

Regard,

Surendra.

 

 

 

Sent from a thumb ty= ped device.



-------- Original message --------
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com= >
Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00)
To: Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.= com>
Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry= Kreeger (kreeger)" <kreeger@c= isco.com>, sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport =

<no-hats>

I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straig= htforward than an Ethertype.

Not having extra bytes is also an advantage.

 

Regards,

Alia 

</no-hats>

 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong <lucy.yong@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Larry,

The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH.

Thanks,
Lucy

-----Original Message-----
From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kr= eeger (kreeger)
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM
To: sarikaya= @ieee.org
Cc: sfc@ietf.org<= /a>
Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-tr= ansport

Hi Behcet,

I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is.  It is true that VX= LAN-GPE also adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. = Carrying NSH directly over UDP avoids that as well.  Lucy brought up = a new option that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP.  This adds a GRE header in be= tween the UDP header and NSH, but in my opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefit= s - just more overhead and complication.

Thanks, Larry

On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" <sarikaya2012@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)
><kreeger@cisco.com> wrot= e:
>> Hi Lucy,
>>
>> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoi= d
>>unnecessary overhead or complication.  Adding the GRE header i= n
>>between does  not seem to add any additional benefit that I ca= n see =AD
>>only additional  overhead.
>>
>
>The point was not with VXLAN-GPE.
>
>Behcet
>> Thanks, Larry
>>
>> From: sfc <sfc-bounces@= ietf.org> on behalf of Lucy yong
>> <lucy.yong@huawei.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM
>> To: "sfc@ietf.org" &= lt;sfc@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport
>>
>> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport (draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-0= 8)
>>that  nsh can use for the transport; just need to register an<= br> >>Ethertype for nsh.
>> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with additio= nal
>>security capability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lucy
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

 

--_000_A46D9C092EA46F489F135060986AD9FF22222B1FG4W3293americas_-- From nobody Fri Nov 6 13:51:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0553F1A1AC1; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 13:50:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1OwbOMiYoXwg; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 13:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from g4t3425.houston.hp.com (g4t3425.houston.hp.com [15.201.208.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99C271A1AB8; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 13:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from G9W0364.americas.hpqcorp.net (g9w0364.houston.hp.com [16.216.193.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by g4t3425.houston.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CD2F6A; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:50:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from G9W3616.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.216.186.51) by G9W0364.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.216.193.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.169.1; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:49:05 +0000 Received: from G4W3293.americas.hpqcorp.net ([169.254.2.227]) by G9W3616.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.216.186.51]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:49:05 +0000 From: "Fedyk, Don" To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Dino Farinacci , "Bottorff, Paul" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRGHF93e7N0dRLhEm4LF2sltpDk56PgtCA Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2015 21:49:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [16.216.65.175] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2015 21:50:59 -0000 Hi Surendra A better set of "efficient" stacks for illustration=20 I replaced Ip-strata is really some form of L2 or L2 and MPLS. MPLS not s= hown but could follow the MAC [VLAN] MAC [VLAN]|NSH| L2 or L3 packet [MAC [VLAN]][MPLS]| IP | UDP | NSH |L2 or L3 packet <- Your Proposal [MAC [VLAN][MPLS]| IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE]| Inner MAC | NSH| L2 or L3 packet And as we point in our draft out there is synergy in using MAC Chaining and= NSH=20 MAC_Chain[VLAN]| NSH| L2 or L3 [MAC [VLAN]] | IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE]| MAC_Chain | NSH|L2 or L3 =20 Cheers Don=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar > (smkumar) > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 4:00 AM > To: Dino Farinacci; Bottorff, Paul > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; ; Lucy Yong; Alia Atlas; sarikaya@ieee.o= rg; > Larry Kreeger (kreeger) > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >=20 > Agree it would run everywhere if NSH is treated as an *application*, as y= ou > point out. >=20 > The conflict is in how NSH wants to be transport independent. It is suppo= sed > to be a feature than violation of layering: proper layering vs. overhead,= as > shown below. >=20 > IP-strata | IP | UDP | NSH | > IP-strata | IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE | IP | UDP | NSH | >=20 > Ignoring, other encapsulation of NSH, carrying NSH directly over UDP does > maintain that layering while removing the overhead. This draft is doing t= he > right thing. >=20 > Surendra. >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:21 PM > To: Bottorff, Paul > Cc: Lucy Yong ; Surendra Kumar (smkumar) > ; Alia Atlas ; sarikaya@ieee.org; > Larry Kreeger (kreeger) ; sfc@ietf.org; > > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >=20 > As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run over > anything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn't need to special case > NSH. >=20 > Like the analogy I used at the mic . why doest't VXLAN-GPE have a code po= int > for DNS? ;-) >=20 > Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it wil= l > work over everything we have already built and has a good chance to work > over anything we will build. >=20 > NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. >=20 > Dino >=20 > > On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul > wrote: > > > > It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to allow= for small > scale environments which don't need NVO3 overlays. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Paul > > > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM > > To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas > > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > > > If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? > > > > Lucy > > > > From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM > > To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong > > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > > > I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I als= o > have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. > > > > Lucy, > > I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested > encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity in > formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. > > > > I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. > > > > Regard, > > Surendra. > > > > > > > > Sent from a thumb typed device. > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Alia Atlas > > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) > > To: Lucy yong > > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)" , > > sfc@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > > > > > I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than an > Ethertype. > > Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. > > > > Regards, > > Alia > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > > > The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. > > > > Thanks, > > Lucy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger > > (kreeger) > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM > > To: sarikaya@ieee.org > > Cc: sfc@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > > > Hi Behcet, > > > > I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that VXL= AN-GPE also > adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying NSH > directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option that= I > had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE over UDP. > This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my > opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complicatio= n. > > > > Thanks, Larry > > > > On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: > > > > >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger) > > > wrote: > > >> Hi Lucy, > > >> > > >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to avoid > > >>unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header in > > >>between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can see > > >>=AD only additional overhead. > > >> > > > > > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > > > > > >Behcet > > >> Thanks, Larry > > >> > > >> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong > > >> > > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM > > >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > >> > > >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport > > >>(draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that nsh can use for the > > >>transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. > > >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with > > >>additional security capability. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Lucy > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> sfc mailing list > > >> sfc@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Fri Nov 6 17:36:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17FB81A0854; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y59wNCTQpAEM; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:36:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6C221A044E; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:36:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8221; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446860174; x=1448069774; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; 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Sat, 7 Nov 2015 01:36:13 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 19:36:12 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 19:36:12 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Fedyk, Don" , Dino Farinacci , "Bottorff, Paul" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nbb+AgAADXYCAABlgAIAAANEA//+qQpWAAJWuAIAAuVMAgAAC+oCAACcFIIABQLwA///Gz/A= Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 01:36:12 +0000 Message-ID: <5c234a2d108b40a789534021c4d1448c@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.155.34.162] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 01:36:18 -0000 Don, I was not proposing anything, just contrasting the packet layout when NSH i= s purely over IP/UDP.=20 Surendra. -----Original Message----- From: Fedyk, Don [mailto:don.fedyk@hpe.com]=20 Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 1:49 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Dino Farinacci ; Bottorff, Paul Cc: sfc@ietf.org; ; Lucy Yong ; Alia Atlas ; sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger = (kreeger) Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Hi Surendra A better set of "efficient" stacks for illustration I replaced Ip-strata is= really some form of L2 or L2 and MPLS. MPLS not shown but could follow t= he MAC [VLAN] MAC [VLAN]|NSH| L2 or L3 packet [MAC [VLAN]][MPLS]| IP | UDP | NSH |L2 or L3 packet <- Your Proposal [MAC [= VLAN][MPLS]| IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE]| Inner MAC | NSH| L2 or L3 packet And as we point in our draft out there is synergy in using MAC Chaining and= NSH=20 MAC_Chain[VLAN]| NSH| L2 or L3 [MAC [VLAN]] | IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE]| MAC_Chain | NSH|L2 or L3 =20 Cheers Don=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar > (smkumar) > Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 4:00 AM > To: Dino Farinacci; Bottorff, Paul > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; ; Lucy Yong; Alia Atlas;=20 > sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger) > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >=20 > Agree it would run everywhere if NSH is treated as an *application*,=20 > as you point out. >=20 > The conflict is in how NSH wants to be transport independent. It is=20 > supposed to be a feature than violation of layering: proper layering=20 > vs. overhead, as shown below. >=20 > IP-strata | IP | UDP | NSH | > IP-strata | IP | UDP | VXLAN-GPE | IP | UDP | NSH | >=20 > Ignoring, other encapsulation of NSH, carrying NSH directly over UDP=20 > does maintain that layering while removing the overhead. This draft is=20 > doing the right thing. >=20 > Surendra. >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:21 PM > To: Bottorff, Paul > Cc: Lucy Yong ; Surendra Kumar (smkumar)=20 > ; Alia Atlas ;=20 > sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger) ;=20 > sfc@ietf.org; > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport >=20 > As I mentioned at the mic, if NSH runs over UDP/IP, then it can run=20 > over anything. And then every encapsulation spec doesn't need to=20 > special case NSH. >=20 > Like the analogy I used at the mic . why doest't VXLAN-GPE have a code=20 > point for DNS? ;-) >=20 > Answer: it makes no sense. Run NSH as a transport layer client and it=20 > will work over everything we have already built and has a good chance=20 > to work over anything we will build. >=20 > NSH is no more an overlay than SMTP is for email. >=20 > Dino >=20 > > On Nov 5, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Bottorff, Paul > wrote: > > > > It is definitely a useful option to run directly over Ethernet to=20 > > allow for small > scale environments which don't need NVO3 overlays. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Paul > > > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lucy yong > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 5:08 AM > > To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar); Alia Atlas > > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > > > If SFC is deployed in Ethernet network, do we need NSH over Ethernet? > > > > Lucy > > > > From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 4:12 AM > > To: Alia Atlas; Lucy yong > > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > > > I did go through the process of getting the ethertype for NSH and I=20 > > also > have obtained a UDP port# in the past. I have to agree with Alia. > > > > Lucy, > > I appreciate you guys taking a crack at NSH over GRE over UDP nested > encapsulation. It simply calls for unnecessary overhead and complexity=20 > in formulating and processing such a packet along the tunnel path. > > > > I admit i have not read your draft yet, will certainly do. > > > > Regard, > > Surendra. > > > > > > > > Sent from a thumb typed device. > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: Alia Atlas > > Date: 2015/11/05 6:18 PM (GMT+09:00) > > To: Lucy yong > > Cc: sarikaya@ieee.org, "Larry Kreeger (kreeger)"=20 > > , sfc@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > > > > > I think that getting a UDP port is a lot more straightforward than=20 > > an > Ethertype. > > Not having extra bytes is also an advantage. > > > > Regards, > > Alia > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 4:15 AM, Lucy yong > wrote: > > Hi Larry, > > > > The benefit is to avoid working a UDP transport for NSH. > > > > Thanks, > > Lucy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Larry Kreeger > > (kreeger) > > Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 1:45 AM > > To: sarikaya@ieee.org > > Cc: sfc@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > > > Hi Behcet, > > > > I=B9m not sure I=B9m following what your point is. It is true that=20 > > VXLAN-GPE also > adds additional overhead which may not always be needed. Carrying NSH=20 > directly over UDP avoids that as well. Lucy brought up a new option=20 > that I had never heard suggested before, which was to carry NSH in GRE ov= er UDP. > This adds a GRE header in between the UDP header and NSH, but in my=20 > opinion doesn=B9t bring any benefits - just more overhead and complicatio= n. > > > > Thanks, Larry > > > > On 11/5/15, 4:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya" wrote: > > > > >On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Larry Kreeger (kreeger)=20 > > > wrote: > > >> Hi Lucy, > > >> > > >> One of the motivations for carrying NSH directly on UDP is to=20 > > >>avoid unnecessary overhead or complication. Adding the GRE header=20 > > >>in between does not seem to add any additional benefit that I can=20 > > >>see =AD only additional overhead. > > >> > > > > > >The point was not with VXLAN-GPE. > > > > > >Behcet > > >> Thanks, Larry > > >> > > >> From: sfc on behalf of Lucy yong=20 > > >> > > >> Date: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 11:59 PM > > >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" > > >> Subject: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > > >> > > >> There is a gre/udp tunnel transport > > >>(draft-ietf-tsvwg-gre-in-udp-08) that nsh can use for the=20 > > >>transport; just need to register an Ethertype for nsh. > > >> The gre/udp transport provides all features nsh needs with=20 > > >>additional security capability. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Lucy > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> sfc mailing list > > >> sfc@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Fri Nov 6 17:51:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC42D1A0125; Fri, 6 Nov 2015 17:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, 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Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.155.34.162] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 01:51:21 -0000 SW5saW5lLg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogRGlubyBGYXJpbmFj Y2kgW21haWx0bzpmYXJpbmFjY2lAZ21haWwuY29tXSANClNlbnQ6IEZyaWRheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIg MDYsIDIwMTUgNDozNiBBTQ0KVG86IFN1cmVuZHJhIEt1bWFyIChzbWt1bWFyKSA8c21rdW1hckBj aXNjby5jb20+DQpDYzogQm90dG9yZmYsIFBhdWwgPHBhdWwuYm90dG9yZmZAaHBlLmNvbT47IEx1 Y3kgWW9uZyA8bHVjeS55b25nQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+OyBBbGlhIEF0bGFzIDxha2F0bGFzQGdtYWls 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[166.171.248.27]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id in6sm2542347pbd.86.2015.11.06.19.03.47 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Nov 2015 19:03:48 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Dino Farinacci X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13B143) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 12:03:44 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5F01B8F7-F20E-44CE-A9BE-46300CF9E0CA@gmail.com> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <0A891D0C-2D9C-4828-8BDE-706C56826315@gmail.com> To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 03:03:50 -0000 > On Nov 7, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Surendra Kumar (smkumar) w= rote: >=20 > That doesn't mean DNS is spec'ed to run over VXLAN or MPLS. But DNS is tr= ansport independent.=20 > SK> It is spec'ed to work on IP/UDP, understood and makes sense. It should be spec'ed to work ONLY over UDP/IP. Everything else comes for fre= e (or at the cost of what these NSH packets run over).=20 Dino= From nobody Sat Nov 7 10:45:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17151B2BDB for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 10:45:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sL3e8-dCDLtf for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 10:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A3951B2BCF for ; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 10:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:49739 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1Zv8US-0001Ih-DQ; Sat, 07 Nov 2015 10:45:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "sfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.5 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.5, by Edgewall Software To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@tools.ietf.org, smkumar@cisco.com X-Trac-Project: sfc Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 18:45:28 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/sfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/17 Message-ID: <055.f7d737baaa5f79fd7977fb94bd0e455f@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 17 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@tools.ietf.org, smkumar@cisco.com, sfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Resent-To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151107184530.9A3951B2BCF@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 10:45:30 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] #17 (architecture): Purge examples section to remove transports X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 18:45:31 -0000 #17: Purge examples section to remove transports Given the neutral stance taken by the WG on transports and the general agreement not to pick a specific transport, the NSH encapsulation draft must not document specific transports even if it is in the form of examples. There was general agreement on the mailing list to remove examples section from NSH draft on the mailing list. This ticket is to track removal of section 9, from NSH WG draft revision -01. -- ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@tools.ietf.org smkumar@cisco.com | Status: new Type: defect | Milestone: Priority: major | Version: Component: architecture | Keywords: Severity: Active WG | Document | ---------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Ticket URL: sfc From nobody Sat Nov 7 11:06:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F9931B2D75; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:06:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4yro5v9ym-P; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:06:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCE6F1B2D6B; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 11:06:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1538; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1446923177; x=1448132777; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=axN4qr1e/GvUFf6b2hN6vbOJbn4iyq2FR7ccytEW2LM=; b=FNysLJj94CpPe2fvqNiUxzSL0MpddFd5GjSRRqT4pLniKJA5wUAymnAk j5y/5Tt/WpbJJaZcU8oGai+oVt133BgbZRCnuL0EILXBvOUcbRseGyuG0 uuxMcpCk5DQdlGSqE6gOFQgX8u12JhDLZW2IDl8UBBey51TwBH3gNLQnn w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AvAgAESj5W/5pdJa1egztTYA8GviYBDYFhIYVvAoEiOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBAQMBOj8FBwQCAQgRBAEBAR4QIREdCAIEDgUIiBEDCggNvEkNhD8BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYi1KCU4F1hHEFlkgBhR2GFIFugiuSTodSAR8BAUKCER2BVnIBhAyBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,258,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="206099913" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Nov 2015 19:06:16 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (xch-aln-008.cisco.com [173.36.7.18]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tA7J6E7F031217 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 7 Nov 2015 19:06:15 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 13:06:14 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sat, 7 Nov 2015 13:06:14 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [nvo3] [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656Nbb+AgAADXYCAABlgAIAAANEA//+qQpWAAJWuAIAAuVMAgAAC+oCAACcFIIAAa9EAgABSFgCAAJP/oA== Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2015 19:06:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <563C6DB4.1060707@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.23.215] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [sfc] [nvo3] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2015 19:06:18 -0000 We had a similar discussion a while back and there was general agreement to= purge section 9 from NSH draft to avoid picking transports. Seems like it = did not make the last revision. Filed a ticket to track the removal: http:/= /trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/17 Regards, Surendra. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Quinn (paulq)=20 Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 6:01 AM To: Joel M. Halpern Cc: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Dino Farinacci ; Bottorff, Paul ; sfc@ietf.org; ; Lucy Yong ; Alia Atlas ; sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger (kreeger) Subject: Re: [nvo3] [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > On Nov 6, 2015, at 4:07 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > I am having trouble understanding the conversation. > We have a clear agreement that we are not going to standardize on transpo= rt for NSH. > And even more that we are not going to pick "one". >=20 I agree. It seems that we are trying to solve a problem that doesn't need = to be solved. =20 If an operator wants to use UDP/NSH in their environment, so be it. Simila= rly, if they chose to use VXLAN-GPE or something else, so be it. NSH doesn= 't care, and nor should we. > So yes, this draft describes a valid and useful way to transport NSH. the= re are many such. >=20 > Yours, > Joel From nobody Mon Nov 9 06:00:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5326D1B2BDF for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 06:00:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lgXQqS1Byy08 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 06:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B076E1B2BDA for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 06:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:53708 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1ZvmzM-0005Y5-FQ; Mon, 09 Nov 2015 06:00:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "sfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.5 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.5, by Edgewall Software To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Trac-Project: sfc Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:00:04 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/sfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/13#comment:2 Message-ID: <081.b26731e5a9d673dde4d7604609a72f63@tools.ietf.org> References: <066.e47bcbfaf64ea83e17548ea0b67b4a27@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 13 In-Reply-To: <066.e47bcbfaf64ea83e17548ea0b67b4a27@tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, sfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Resent-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151109140007.B076E1B2BDA@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 06:00:07 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] #13 (control-plane): Sumandra Majee's comments X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 14:00:09 -0000 #13: Sumandra Majee's comments Comment (by mohamed.boucadair@orange.com): A proposal to handle the comments from Sumandra. No feedback was received since then. === De : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN Envoyé : mercredi 16 septembre 2015 16:44 À : 'Sumandra Majee' Objet : Your comments (was RE: [sfc] WG call for adoption of draft-ww-sfc- control-plane-06) Hi Sumandra, Thank you for the comments. I recorded your comments in the issue tracker so that we don’t miss them. Please see inline. Cheers, Med De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Sumandra Majee Envoyé : samedi 15 août 2015 04:43 À : Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] WG call for adoption of draft-ww-sfc-control-plane-06 Support the adoption. Following are my comments and we should be able to discuss this before the last call. 1. 4.7 SF liveliness detection: An inband liveliness also should be considered and this control point should be the only recipient of this information. In a large distributed system this architecture may have a) scalability issues b) issues with reaction time. If node#1 has the health information for node#2 it can (sometimes) independently take local decision. This will scale well. Furthermore attributes like latency etc. are measured at the local node, and this makes the feedback loop between observer and corresponding local control point much shorter. This is in addition to what is described in draft. [Med] What about adding this sentence to section 4.7: “Local failure detect and repair mechanisms may be enabled by SFC-aware nodes. Control Elements may be fed directly or indirectly with inputs from these mechanisms.†2. 4.8 Monitoring and counters: Yes it is needed, but I am not sure this needs to be part of this draft. Either way the list of attributes are best incomplete and it will be always be like that. Why bother with this section at all. [Med] The purpose is to provide a non-exhaustive list of counters to illustrate which kind of information we are talking about. I don’t think it is harmful to maintain this list. The text already states “(but not limited to)â€. If you think this is confusing, I can change the text to make it more clear. 3. SFC Classification policy entry should be bound to one single service function chain (or one single SFP) The above appears to be unnecessary, if I create a policy object I would rather refer it to multiple places. Can you describe a case or thought process behind this assertion. [Med] The full sentence is : SFC Classification policy entry should be bound to one single service function chain (or one single SFP); when an incoming packet matches more than one classification entry, tie-breaking criteria should be specified (e.g., priority). Such tie-breaking criteria should be instructed by the control plane. The purpose of the sentence is to ensure that the classifier can be fed by the control plane with appropriate information for the sake of deterministic behaviors. When a packet matches several classification entries, further instructions are needed to decide which processing is to be followed. I hope this makes sense to you. ==== -- -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc- mohamed.boucadair@orange.com | control-plane@tools.ietf.org Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: minor | Milestone: Component: control-plane | Version: Severity: - | Resolution: Keywords: | -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Ticket URL: sfc From nobody Mon Nov 9 10:22:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8B71A9145; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 10:22:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpTKljBtax9g; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 10:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from g2t2353.austin.hp.com (g2t2353.austin.hp.com [15.217.128.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFCD91A9142; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 10:22:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (g2w4316.austin.hp.com [16.197.9.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by g2t2353.austin.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AE9770; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:22:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from G2W4311.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.197.24.199) by G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.197.9.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.169.1; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:21:42 +0000 Received: from G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net ([169.254.7.38]) by G2W4311.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.197.24.199]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:21:42 +0000 From: "Bottorff, Paul" To: Dino Farinacci , "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport Thread-Index: AQHRF5kQC6Wi60JfcUupHgwI/CzO656NCSqAgAADXYCAABlfAIAAANIAgAAO1gCAADEaAIAAuPBQgAADXICAAJDLgIAAPHwAgADeJgCAABRAAIAEIKBg Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 18:21:42 +0000 Message-ID: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3D6E@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D57207923@dfweml701-chm> <4lx4t6nneg0sxa2xob0057ph.1446718008074@email.android.com> <2691CE0099834E4A9C5044EEC662BB9D572079FD@dfweml701-chm> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254A3A0F@G2W2527.americas.hpqcorp.net> <0A891D0C-2D9C-4828-8BDE-706C56826315@gmail.com> <5F01B8F7-F20E-44CE-A9BE-46300CF9E0CA@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <5F01B8F7-F20E-44CE-A9BE-46300CF9E0CA@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [16.193.232.30] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "" , Lucy Yong , Alia Atlas , "sarikaya@ieee.org" , "Larry Kreeger \(kreeger\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 18:22:39 -0000 All: Directly over Ethernet is the lowest overhead encapsulation (less than UDP)= and does not come for free with the direct over UDP proposal. In addition,= supporting NSH over VxLAN is also an L2 encapsulation. Both of these suppo= rt MAC Chains as in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fedyk-sfc-mac-ch= ain/ as well as NSH tuple match and MPLS forwarding. At very least we woul= d need both direct Ethernet and direct UDP to cover all the proposals. The NSH header is a tag header used to steer packets to intermediate destin= ations (which are SFs). The proper layering is between the L2 and L3 header= s not at L3 or L4. Cheers, Paul -----Original Message----- From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, November 06, 2015 7:04 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) Cc: Bottorff, Paul; Lucy Yong; Alia Atlas; sarikaya@ieee.org; Larry Kreeger= (kreeger); sfc@ietf.org; Subject: Re: [sfc] comment on draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport > On Nov 7, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Surendra Kumar (smkumar) = wrote: >=20 > That doesn't mean DNS is spec'ed to run over VXLAN or MPLS. But DNS is t= ransport independent.=20 > SK> It is spec'ed to work on IP/UDP, understood and makes sense. It should be spec'ed to work ONLY over UDP/IP. Everything else comes for fr= ee (or at the cost of what these NSH packets run over).=20 Dino From nobody Tue Nov 10 16:32:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3CA1B4476 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:32:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hTpMlcZ9RfR8 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:32:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DD4B1B4474 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:32:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9545; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447201962; x=1448411562; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=gGCMxzb/v54PrPoRewadmXFWTOXwRzqDAjB/9Z8psVA=; b=J20wlOj/B/GeVXsNUvCVbSxvkOw/6e7NU2mVHn5z4X8hu7j1IWGpKWCd OGvbPIhzYgfoiQmJLlEXh3HxEbNnk1KRDSpy3084bHhB2DNa9oRvlzmgT gWQhzt5/oynH/aBsWpoxP0PB04QY53WFfPloQwWdPzNivqpSm68t9A+R7 I=; X-Files: signature.asc : 841 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0DYAgDji0JW/40NJK1EGoM7U28GvkQOgWUhhW8CgUQ4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBAgEBI1YFCwIBCBIGKgICMhcOAgQOBQ6IGAgNO7JzkF4BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEPCYZUghCCboFAg0iCbS+BFQWHRAqGf4d7AYJSgWCIc4FbhECWKQEfAUOCEQ0QgVZyAROEO4EHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,272,1444694400"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="49210459" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2015 00:32:41 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-002.cisco.com (xch-rtp-002.cisco.com [64.101.220.142]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAB0WdsU030489 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:32:40 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-002.cisco.com (64.101.220.142) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:32:39 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:32:39 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: RFC Errata System Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7665 (4528) Thread-Index: AQHRGyZl5mmsXA1EdEeCL84g0AADoZ6WTnKA Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:32:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151109193828.4E1521801AE@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: <20151109193828.4E1521801AE@rfc-editor.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.61.111.202] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A9AA1298-F8FB-44BF-81D0-47307D6C2BB6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Thomas Narten , "sfc@ietf.org" , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , "igor.duarte.cardoso@intel.com" , "Jim Guichard \(jguichar\)" , Alia Atlas , "Alvaro Retana \(aretana\)" , "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [sfc] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7665 (4528) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:32:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A9AA1298-F8FB-44BF-81D0-47307D6C2BB6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A7DC60F9-A7F5-4EF1-A127-B43ABD05201B" --Apple-Mail=_A7DC60F9-A7F5-4EF1-A127-B43ABD05201B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I believe this erratum is correct and should be Verified. I tracked it down =E2=80=94 this was introduced in revision -10 of the = sfc-architecture document, while working on resolving one Security = AD=E2=80=99s DISCUSS. In particular, you can see the text presented as a proposal in Prague = (https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-sfc-6.pdf = , see = Slide 11). We missed this one as a WG. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > On Nov 9, 2015, at 8:38 PM, RFC Errata System = wrote: >=20 > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7665, > "Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture". >=20 > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7665&eid=3D4528 >=20 > -------------------------------------- > Type: Technical > Reported by: Igor Duarte Cardoso >=20 > Section: 6 >=20 > Original Text > ------------- > packets at certain points on certain service chains, the control > mechanism MUST verify that appropriate protective treatment of > NSH information is available from the point where the > information is added to the point where it will be removed. If > such mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be > generated. >=20 > Corrected Text > -------------- > packets at certain points on certain service chains, the control > mechanism MUST verify that appropriate protective treatment of > SFC encapsulation information is available from the point where the > information is added to the point where it will be removed. If > such mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be > generated. >=20 > Notes > ----- > NSH has not been introduced earlier in the document. Moreover, the = reference to NSH itself seems to have been a tiny mistake that slipped. > The corrected text replaces NSH with SFC encapsulation. >=20 > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. >=20 > -------------------------------------- > RFC7665 (draft-ietf-sfc-architecture-11) > -------------------------------------- > Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture > Publication Date : October 2015 > Author(s) : J. Halpern, Ed., C. Pignataro, Ed. > Category : INFORMATIONAL > Source : Service Function Chaining > Area : Routing > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG >=20 --Apple-Mail=_A7DC60F9-A7F5-4EF1-A127-B43ABD05201B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi,

I = believe this erratum is correct and should be Verified.

I tracked it down =E2=80=94= this was introduced in revision -10 of the sfc-architecture document, = while working on resolving one Security AD=E2=80=99s DISCUSS.

In particular, you can = see the text presented as a proposal in Prague (https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-sfc-6.pdf<= /a>, see Slide 11). We missed this one as a WG.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.


On = Nov 9, 2015, at 8:38 PM, RFC Errata System <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> wrote:

The = following errata report has been submitted for RFC7665,
"Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7665&eid=3D= 4528

--------------------------------------
Type: = Technical
Reported by: Igor Duarte Cardoso = <igor.duarte.cardoso@intel.com>

Section: 6

Original Text
-------------
packets at certain points on = certain service chains, the control
mechanism MUST verify = that appropriate protective treatment of
NSH information = is available from the point where the
information is added = to the point where it will be removed.  If
such = mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be
generated.

Corrected Text
--------------
packets at certain points on = certain service chains, the control
mechanism MUST verify = that appropriate protective treatment of
SFC encapsulation = information is available from the point where the
information is added to the point where it will be removed. =  If
such mechanisms are unavailable, error = notifications SHOULD be
generated.

Notes
-----
NSH has not been = introduced earlier in the document. Moreover, the reference to NSH = itself seems to have been a tiny mistake that slipped.
The = corrected text replaces NSH with SFC encapsulation.

Instructions:
-------------
This = erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified = or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying = party (IESG)
can log in to change the status and edit the = report, if necessary.

--------------------------------------
RFC7665 = (draft-ietf-sfc-architecture-11)
--------------------------------------
Title =             &n= bsp; : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture
Publication Date    : October 2015
Author(s) =           : J. = Halpern, Ed., C. Pignataro, Ed.
Category =            : = INFORMATIONAL
Source =             &n= bsp;: Service Function Chaining
Area =             &n= bsp;  : Routing
Stream =             &n= bsp;: IETF
Verifying Party     : = IESG


= --Apple-Mail=_A7DC60F9-A7F5-4EF1-A127-B43ABD05201B-- --Apple-Mail=_A9AA1298-F8FB-44BF-81D0-47307D6C2BB6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWQoylAAoJEIXgpQGOZny9y3kQAJR0kCMFV9zTyW2pl3r15RAY 1hA2PLFKIjaaCpMzuqx8tgyQ0v3d4Y80CqnkzbAqv2y62nPA9xZxIXRpVuWCUe1A r2FersYhFx302FLj4cQcnZJhiWAnr6Tuvu8njVnynpZ5Uw0AYIKe8HFs9PQ6+lyi 0aQlmNfuBDtv3Ucd/4scAnoAL2KRkgNV7TSNHtBDC4gwmyFUbV8F0J/UVOyCd/QG UYg/6xQUrFc5tOAnQ4N3uaxHTrGS3oxqFUutUaDC/yNhb5CfqxjjaKaPcJfEjpHj nAok/EfAL/DpDedmChb0ygqzNVNVpwlBnXF5vx0msaA7mLim3PXL8x1vNcoyL3Lp m2phuPIgwIv4UblR5s9eUC2pIF0kX5+SfxZhzIBaCzJvatOLLGZiq+g0q92IRhGL bMyl023RTPJbsVXTMbQyx+xKyj3mIVhLasykkWNwA+0wKvoQBDad3Hs2f5AnCYbQ 89ZMelvSzbg1L0P/9EJA1p9Zu9JcmboguAo8z6EN2p/rKywBG5RSnwEf2QFK22uu Umbz7mdNCFBTxvLBrA5AZdfE7PkUbHfxG+I649TAA+ax8pWFnMIlzhSwa7Ifv1TD zvUipuxYo5N6dDjN4vPy0NCZ/xRLuOURPOqmIpG7tRWD0v6mhQ83T3803ySqJ39a iOwfwvDabkyp3fhTqjc4 =Z7Nu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A9AA1298-F8FB-44BF-81D0-47307D6C2BB6-- From nobody Tue Nov 10 16:38:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC791B44C7 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:38:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BWhB5TT3oDyc for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 927261B44C1 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7035A1C0653; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:38:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0327B1C00FB; Tue, 10 Nov 2015 16:38:02 -0800 (PST) To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , RFC Errata System References: <20151109193828.4E1521801AE@rfc-editor.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <56428DE9.4060206@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 19:38:01 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Thomas Narten , "sfc@ietf.org" , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" , "Jim Guichard \(jguichar\)" , "igor.duarte.cardoso@intel.com" , "Alvaro Retana \(aretana\)" , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [sfc] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7665 (4528) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 00:38:06 -0000 Agreed. (And thanks for tracking down the details Carlos.) Joel On 11/10/15 7:32 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) wrote: > Hi, > > I believe this erratum is correct and should be Verified. > > I tracked it down — this was introduced in revision -10 of the > sfc-architecture document, while working on resolving one Security AD’s > DISCUSS. > > In particular, you can see the text presented as a proposal in Prague > (https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/slides/slides-93-sfc-6.pdf, see > Slide 11). We missed this one as a WG. > > Thanks, > > — Carlos. > > >> On Nov 9, 2015, at 8:38 PM, RFC Errata System >> > wrote: >> >> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7665, >> "Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture". >> >> -------------------------------------- >> You may review the report below and at: >> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7665&eid=4528 >> >> -------------------------------------- >> Type: Technical >> Reported by: Igor Duarte Cardoso >> >> Section: 6 >> >> Original Text >> ------------- >> packets at certain points on certain service chains, the control >> mechanism MUST verify that appropriate protective treatment of >> NSH information is available from the point where the >> information is added to the point where it will be removed. If >> such mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be >> generated. >> >> Corrected Text >> -------------- >> packets at certain points on certain service chains, the control >> mechanism MUST verify that appropriate protective treatment of >> SFC encapsulation information is available from the point where the >> information is added to the point where it will be removed. If >> such mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be >> generated. >> >> Notes >> ----- >> NSH has not been introduced earlier in the document. Moreover, the >> reference to NSH itself seems to have been a tiny mistake that slipped. >> The corrected text replaces NSH with SFC encapsulation. >> >> Instructions: >> ------------- >> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please >> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or >> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) >> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. >> >> -------------------------------------- >> RFC7665 (draft-ietf-sfc-architecture-11) >> -------------------------------------- >> Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture >> Publication Date : October 2015 >> Author(s) : J. Halpern, Ed., C. Pignataro, Ed. >> Category : INFORMATIONAL >> Source : Service Function Chaining >> Area : Routing >> Stream : IETF >> Verifying Party : IESG >> > From nobody Wed Nov 11 08:04:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897121B7F1F for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:33:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5c4cIqlzgsU8 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:33:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377DC1B7F13 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:33:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id CBEE918000B; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:31:51 -0800 (PST) To: paulq@cisco.com, tnadeau@lucidvision.com, akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, aretana@cisco.com, jguichar@cisco.com, narten@us.ibm.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20151109163151.CBEE918000B@rfc-editor.org> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:31:51 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:04:47 -0800 Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, sfc@ietf.org, igor.duarte.cardoso@intel.com Subject: [sfc] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC7498 (4527) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 16:33:09 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7498, "Problem Statement for Service Function Chaining". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7498&eid=4527 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Igor Duarte Cardoso Section: 4 Original Text ------------- Although this problem statement does not introduce any protocols, when considering service function chaining, the three main areas begin investigated (see Section 3) by the WG have security aspects that warrant consideration. Corrected Text -------------- Although this problem statement does not introduce any protocols, when considering service function chaining, the three main areas being investigated (see Section 3) by the WG have security aspects that warrant consideration. Notes ----- \\"begin\\" replaced by \\"being\\", it seems to have been a missed typo. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7498 (draft-ietf-sfc-problem-statement-13) -------------------------------------- Title : Problem Statement for Service Function Chaining Publication Date : April 2015 Author(s) : P. Quinn, Ed., T. Nadeau, Ed. Category : INFORMATIONAL Source : Service Function Chaining Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Nov 11 08:04:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507841B8265 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:39:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HYj4mzH10ZVf for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::31]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 215521B8261 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 4E1521801AE; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:38:28 -0800 (PST) To: jmh@joelhalpern.com, cpignata@cisco.com, akatlas@gmail.com, db3546@att.com, aretana@cisco.com, jguichar@cisco.com, narten@us.ibm.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20151109193828.4E1521801AE@rfc-editor.org> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:38:28 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:04:47 -0800 Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, sfc@ietf.org, igor.duarte.cardoso@intel.com Subject: [sfc] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7665 (4528) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 19:39:45 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7665, "Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7665&eid=4528 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Igor Duarte Cardoso Section: 6 Original Text ------------- packets at certain points on certain service chains, the control mechanism MUST verify that appropriate protective treatment of NSH information is available from the point where the information is added to the point where it will be removed. If such mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be generated. Corrected Text -------------- packets at certain points on certain service chains, the control mechanism MUST verify that appropriate protective treatment of SFC encapsulation information is available from the point where the information is added to the point where it will be removed. If such mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be generated. Notes ----- NSH has not been introduced earlier in the document. Moreover, the reference to NSH itself seems to have been a tiny mistake that slipped. The corrected text replaces NSH with SFC encapsulation. Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7665 (draft-ietf-sfc-architecture-11) -------------------------------------- Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture Publication Date : October 2015 Author(s) : J. Halpern, Ed., C. Pignataro, Ed. Category : INFORMATIONAL Source : Service Function Chaining Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Nov 11 08:13:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902711B2B4E; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:13:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stidIkeewiLj; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECA51B2B4D; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id CCAE5180003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:12:02 -0800 (PST) To: igor.duarte.cardoso@intel.com, jmh@joelhalpern.com, cpignata@cisco.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20151111161202.CCAE5180003@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:12:02 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Cc: akatlas@juniper.net, iesg@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [sfc] [Errata Verified] RFC7665 (4528) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:13:25 -0000 The following errata report has been verified for RFC7665, "Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7665&eid=4528 -------------------------------------- Status: Verified Type: Technical Reported by: Igor Duarte Cardoso Date Reported: 2015-11-09 Verified by: Alia Atlas (IESG) Section: 6 Original Text ------------- packets at certain points on certain service chains, the control mechanism MUST verify that appropriate protective treatment of NSH information is available from the point where the information is added to the point where it will be removed. If such mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be generated. Corrected Text -------------- packets at certain points on certain service chains, the control mechanism MUST verify that appropriate protective treatment of SFC encapsulation information is available from the point where the information is added to the point where it will be removed. If such mechanisms are unavailable, error notifications SHOULD be generated. Notes ----- NSH has not been introduced earlier in the document. Moreover, the reference to NSH itself seems to have been a tiny mistake that slipped. The corrected text replaces NSH with SFC encapsulation. -------------------------------------- RFC7665 (draft-ietf-sfc-architecture-11) -------------------------------------- Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Architecture Publication Date : October 2015 Author(s) : J. Halpern, Ed., C. Pignataro, Ed. Category : INFORMATIONAL Source : Service Function Chaining Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Nov 11 08:14:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA5D1AC432; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:14:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2HA-Vzw_vmVv; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:14:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF57F1AC3EC; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:14:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 70242180003; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:12:45 -0800 (PST) To: igor.duarte.cardoso@intel.com, paulq@cisco.com, tnadeau@lucidvision.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20151111161245.70242180003@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 08:12:45 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Cc: akatlas@juniper.net, iesg@ietf.org, sfc@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [sfc] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC7498 (4527) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:14:08 -0000 The following errata report has been held for document update for RFC7498, "Problem Statement for Service Function Chaining". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7498&eid=4527 -------------------------------------- Status: Held for Document Update Type: Editorial Reported by: Igor Duarte Cardoso Date Reported: 2015-11-09 Held by: Alia Atlas (IESG) Section: 4 Original Text ------------- Although this problem statement does not introduce any protocols, when considering service function chaining, the three main areas begin investigated (see Section 3) by the WG have security aspects that warrant consideration. Corrected Text -------------- Although this problem statement does not introduce any protocols, when considering service function chaining, the three main areas being investigated (see Section 3) by the WG have security aspects that warrant consideration. Notes ----- \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"begin\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" replaced by \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"being\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\", it seems to have been a missed typo. -------------------------------------- RFC7498 (draft-ietf-sfc-problem-statement-13) -------------------------------------- Title : Problem Statement for Service Function Chaining Publication Date : April 2015 Author(s) : P. Quinn, Ed., T. Nadeau, Ed. Category : INFORMATIONAL Source : Service Function Chaining Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Nov 11 22:42:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCAB91B29CD for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 85bSGJrQrabK for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga09.intel.com (mga09.intel.com [134.134.136.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A271ACEFD for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:42:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmga001.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.18]) by orsmga102.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2015 22:42:29 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,280,1444719600"; d="scan'208,217";a="817924868" Received: from orsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.5]) by orsmga001.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2015 22:42:29 -0800 Received: from orsmsx114.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.91]) by ORSMSX107.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.197]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 22:42:28 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AdEXp8m6yQaw1JVOQR+GEAPtWpkjCwFbTtzQ Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:42:28 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.138] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869ORSMSX114amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:42:42 -0000 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869ORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869ORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869ORSMSX114amrcor_-- From nobody Wed Nov 11 23:32:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651ED1A6FFB for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:32:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u8cGIPxg4BMk for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3D91A6FF5 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 23:32:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by WTL-EXCHP-3.sandvine.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 02:32:12 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVZFiGO/1AuG0GyjOiLT/Ut556X+7xQ Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:32:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [182.248.147.153] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830D9BE96wtlexchp2sandvi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:32:13 -0000 --_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830D9BE96wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Uri, I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like= a "legacy SF" device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH hea= ders. Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move = packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the = SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. In my opinion, the issues of so-called "legacy" SFC are therefore elevated = in importance. We should be discussing "legacy and untrusted SF". E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 could be entitled, "SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF" -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830D9BE96wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Uri,=

 

I think the consequenc= es of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like a “legacy SF= 221; device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH headers.=

Trusting the SF with N= SH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move packets to any chain, = perhaps crossing tenant boundaries.

 

So therefore, SFs usin= g NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the SF-Proxy approach if o= perators have untrusted SFs.

 

In my opinion, the iss= ues of so-called “legacy” SFC are therefore elevated in importa= nce. We should be discussing “legacy and untrusted SF”.

E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06

could be entitled, = 220;SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF”

 

-Dave

 

 

From: sfc [mai= lto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830D9BE96wtlexchp2sandvi_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 06:38:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856C01B2F80 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:38:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id duyYlTZ7vs8K for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-3.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-3.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.22.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 314741B2F7E for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:38:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-3.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:38:02 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: Dave Dolson , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVWq9pAcFkg4UqlQ9fogLg0pp6YhG2A///wavA= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:38:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B2E958EA0MBX021W3CA2exch_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:38:06 -0000 --_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B2E958EA0MBX021W3CA2exch_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, I agree with your analysis. What we've been thinking of as "legacy SF" (i= .e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted SF (i= .e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH). Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Uri, I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like= a "legacy SF" device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH hea= ders. Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move = packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the = SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. In my opinion, the issues of so-called "legacy" SFC are therefore elevated = in importance. We should be discussing "legacy and untrusted SF". E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 could be entitled, "SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF" -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B2E958EA0MBX021W3CA2exch_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dave,

 

I agree with your anal= ysis.   What we’ve been thinking of as “legacy SFR= 21; (i.e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted= SF (i.e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH).

 

   Ron<= /o:p>

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Dave Dolson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM
To: Elzur, Uri <uri.elzur@intel.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Uri,=

 

I think the consequenc= es of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like a “legacy SF= 221; device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH headers.=

Trusting the SF with N= SH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move packets to any chain, = perhaps crossing tenant boundaries.

 

So therefore, SFs usin= g NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the SF-Proxy approach if o= perators have untrusted SFs.

 

In my opinion, the iss= ues of so-called “legacy” SFC are therefore elevated in importa= nce. We should be discussing “legacy and untrusted SF”.

E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06

could be entitled, = 220;SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF”

 

-Dave

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B2E958EA0MBX021W3CA2exch_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 07:23:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9483B1ACE64 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:23:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CRJYa2mqcyoB for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DBAE1ACE62 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:23:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7EB240C32; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:23:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB097240662; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:22:59 -0800 (PST) To: "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:22:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:23:01 -0000 I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service function will not modify the service path identification, even while they expect it to consume and produce metadata. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > Hi > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > Thx > > Uri (“Oo-Ree”) > > C: 949-378-7568 > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the map > (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for > this operation. > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed > the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of > the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or > even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If not, the SFF > (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound… > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for > the NSH draft too. > > Thx > > Uri (“Oo-Ree”) > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Thu Nov 12 07:31:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144031ACEE4 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:31:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f1BAydz3slEA for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-2.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-2.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.22.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4665A1ACED2 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 07:31:16 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVWq9pAcFkg4UqlQ9fogLg0pp6ZB/cA//97U9A= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:31:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 15:31:19 -0000 Joel, As optional behavior for SFF, a stateful SFF would have the ability to enfo= rce policy regarding attached SF's authorization to change path-id, remove = meta-data, add meta-data, change meta-data, etc. Ron -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:23 AM To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service functio= n will not modify the service path identification, even while they expect i= t to consume and produce metadata. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > Hi > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in=20 > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel=20 > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to=20 > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the=20 > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the=20 > map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is=20 > trusted for this operation. > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed=20 > the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake=20 > of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement=20 > or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not,=20 > the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the=20 > outbound... > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully=20 > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is=20 > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this=20 > for the NSH draft too. > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 12 08:05:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE2A1B29C9 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:05:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3RXjZK7DTVVe for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DB1F1B29CF for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:05:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11740; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447344311; x=1448553911; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=RBvEULsAr3/kQxMxGg2YGUsB6ofefWjNQRLoeQjR5JA=; b=Q3iPQsQmXmRCHsbOzgf60a33jiC3iu42XUZMCzkBC+CKQXq65tu3wvA9 4vDnJCSiAIYgVolU9Io161DeMWV/UgOfhOtVWHxIoNERUtv96m29vNQby A1zgsxmsTnfLvgCL0hQXrvSRGfjCnYSjOtXkYrc07fdVf+15XJbYET3NH U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AQDSt0RW/5NdJa1bA4JuTVNvBr45A?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2BZYYQAoE6OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQnBj8KEwIBCBEDAQEBKAcyFAkIAgQ?= =?us-ascii?q?BEoguxB0BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYhlSEfoRoEwEVEYQXBYgdhTeId?= =?us-ascii?q?AGNJoFbkhaEYoNxAR8BAUKEBHKENoEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,282,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="44102870" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 16:05:10 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (xch-rcd-009.cisco.com [173.37.102.19]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tACG5Aku013707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:05:10 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:05:09 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:05:08 -0600 From: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" To: "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVa0+xTCDtVR0Ky6Lo8W+YR+Z6YnmKA Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:05:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.98.43.179] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D26A20AA2D3D5jguicharciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:05:14 -0000 --_000_D26A20AA2D3D5jguicharciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_D26A20AA2D3D5jguicharciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <75015E3DA3C0984CBE98400C96FC61A0@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
[Chair hat off …]

Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practica= l perspective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network eleme= nts then I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The ar= gument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

Jim

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, U= ri" <uri.elzur@intel.com= >
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 a= t 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust y= our SF?

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_D26A20AA2D3D5jguicharciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 08:11:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C618A1B29B7 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:11:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0zNcOgAk-ILd for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E0331B29D4 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:11:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14542; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447344660; x=1448554260; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=FbK9ozlkh+iqVyh4LBgKR1ttbG3f+gNSu53//oO1TDY=; b=aWiFhcGZP0iN/ptoxeki8TEXYqr+GsZWf5pMa0/Tjh8uW0Gl4TOT2y6L mePHF6HraHgjhzIM+A707sVxvrId9pNAVQ0a0pWatzJ+AGBSqfv9A+zap YyyuHirfKGAzyxmjf2QTryo+VZcNfMfWgAVYQ/yi3NqjhseZRAR16IPPC 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0D7AQCzuURW/5NdJa1bA4JuTVNvBr45AQ2BZYYQAoE6OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQnBj8KEwIBCBEDAQEBKAcyFAkIAgQBEoguxBUBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYhlSEfoRoEwEVEYQXBYgdhTeIdAGNJoFbkhaEYoNxAR8BAUKCER2BVnKENoEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,282,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="206292832" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 16:10:44 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (xch-aln-007.cisco.com [173.36.7.17]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tACGAiEv019948 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:10:44 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:10:43 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:10:44 -0600 From: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVa0+xTCDtVR0Ky6Lo8W+YR+Z6YnmKA///PSIA= Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:10:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.63.14] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D269F9071DA82repennociscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:11:04 -0000 --_000_D269F9071DA82repennociscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_D269F9071DA82repennociscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NS= H brings to the table and not generic things that were always there. <= /div>

I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/pre= sentation in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that wer= e always possible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think so= mebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff = we should be looking into.

Thanks,

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" <jguichar@ci= sco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 a= t 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust y= our SF?

[Chair hat off …]

Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practica= l perspective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network eleme= nts then I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The ar= gument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

Jim

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, U= ri" <uri.elzur@intel.com= >
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 a= t 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust y= our SF?

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_D269F9071DA82repennociscocom_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 08:49:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543211B3022 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:49:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dqEwD3w_XIo for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:49:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.bemta14.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta14.messagelabs.com [193.109.254.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E211B1B3020 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:49:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [193.109.255.99] by server-10.bemta-14.messagelabs.com id 50/BD-01143-F13C4465; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:49:35 +0000 X-Env-Sender: walter.haeffner@vodafone.com X-Msg-Ref: server-8.tower-48.messagelabs.com!1447346974!7953866!1 X-Originating-IP: [195.232.244.133] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 7.19.2; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 12237 invoked from network); 12 Nov 2015 16:49:35 -0000 Received: from mailout01.vodafone.com (HELO mailout01.vodafone.com) (195.232.244.133) by server-8.tower-48.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 12 Nov 2015 16:49:35 -0000 Received: from mailint02.vodafone.com (mailint02.vodafone.com [195.232.244.199]) by mailout01.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3nxTRf2jFxz1yBX; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:49:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from mailint02.vodafone.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailint02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3nxTRf111WzQk7C; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:49:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC03W.internal.vodafone.com (voexc03w.dc-ratingen.de [145.230.101.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailint02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3nxTRf0f5SzQjcl; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:49:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC13W.internal.vodafone.com (145.230.101.15) by VOEXC03W.internal.vodafone.com (145.230.101.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.224.2; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:49:33 +0100 Received: from VOEXM20W.internal.vodafone.com ([169.254.4.47]) by voexc13w.internal.vodafone.com ([145.230.101.15]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:49:32 +0100 From: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" To: Ron Parker , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVYVRld+fNH/UKvTOZYk+somZ6YcRcAgAACU4CAAB9fwA== Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:49:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:49:40 -0000 Hi Ron, Joel, Uri, WG, >From my humble network operator's point of view: The SF security discussion= lost any relation to reality. You could ask, do you trust the network, the= operator? Operators enforce policies and handle metadata (data plane, con= trol plane) in the network, in SFCs, for charging etc. since ever. =20 If a SF is not doing what I expect, I would fix this issue (inhouse, or wit= h the vendor). =20 The discussion about reclassification indicates that we probably should exp= lain this mechanism in some more detail in an existing draft (control plan= e draft?). Will the SF itself modify a SFF forwarding table or is SF going = to trigger C-Plane to modify forwarding table(s)? I would prefer the latter= . Cheers, Walter -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Ron Parker Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. November 2015 16:31 An: Joel M. Halpern; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Joel, As optional behavior for SFF, a stateful SFF would have the ability to enfo= rce policy regarding attached SF's authorization to change path-id, remove = meta-data, add meta-data, change meta-data, etc. Ron -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:23 AM To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service functio= n will not modify the service path identification, even while they expect i= t to consume and produce metadata. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > Hi > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in=20 > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel=20 > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to=20 > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the=20 > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the=20 > map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is=20 > trusted for this operation. > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed=20 > the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake=20 > of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement=20 > or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not,=20 > the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the=20 > outbound... > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully=20 > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is=20 > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this=20 > for the NSH draft too. > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 12 08:58:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495841B3041 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:58:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vyRQzK13Wuqb for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:58:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.f5.com (mail.f5.com [208.85.209.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9753C1B3047 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:58:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=f5.com; i=@f5.com; q=dns/txt; s=seattle; t=1447347491; x=1478883491; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=03RV5qlqsShnrx66v6emD1A2euuN2srwBDyBv0MelvQ=; b=hAd9bdDTimUNGNtKTZN9ERtAG2avq32bPh6D2pdSsN1LismuwC7NDh6B IR3ZHNxELIRCduIwjTbaGT9axbdkVN6aX5u91r0qRCBz6MbmWSIjU3n1S 7ThQeZfOOCuqxxBw/GUAS0aznaZ1FrL3p3yGrIEoJDakYVUCrGMn7yeaT 0=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,282,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="187992116" X-IPAS-Result: A2GzBAA+xERW/+sKqMBbAxkBAQEBDwEBAQEGAQEBAYI0gSBvBsAsIYVvAoIHAQEBAQEBBIEHgmI8AQEBAQEBIwI+LQEBAQEDLVwCAQgRAQIBAQEoBzIUAwYIAgQBEog7xB0BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIZUhH6EaBMBDAkRhBcFiB2FN4h0hR2JZZIWhGKDcoRncoQ2gQcBAQE Received: from oracle-apps.f5net.com (HELO exchmail.f5net.com) ([192.168.10.235]) by mail.f5.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 16:58:09 +0000 Received: from SEAEXCHMBX02.olympus.F5Net.com (192.168.15.224) by SEAEXCHMBX07.olympus.F5Net.com (192.168.15.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1044.25; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:58:08 -0800 Received: from SEAEXCHMBX02.olympus.F5Net.com ([fe80::dd5e:c398:17d9:927f]) by seaexchmbx02.olympus.F5Net.com ([fe80::dd5e:c398:17d9:927f%13]) with mapi id 15.00.1044.021; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 08:58:08 -0800 From: Sumandra Majee To: Ron Parker , Dave Dolson , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVW2XpuevYqeUGQq3Yx3mF/qZ6YhG2AgAB2/AD//6EHgA== Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:58:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.4.150722 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.168.15.239] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D269FF8146E82smajeef5com_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:58:15 -0000 --_000_D269FF8146E82smajeef5com_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am bit lost on this whole trust issue. If there is concern about trusting= a particular SF it should go beyond just NSH headers. How does rcving SF-B= knows that payload is really from SF-A, or is the src_ip is not spoofed? T= here are many ways to solve those. So what is the concern, A) non transport level encryption scheme(all practical scheme has built = in authentication) doesn't protect NSH payload? B) Rcving SF must be able to verify that NSH hdr came from SF-A or more = generally produced by one of the trusted SF? I can smell yet another mess of shared secret and associated infrastructure= mess... From: sfc > on behalf of = Ron Parker > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 6:38 AM To: Dave Dolson >, "Elzur= , Uri" >, "sfc@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Dave, I agree with your analysis. What we've been thinking of as "legacy SF" (i= .e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted SF (i= .e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH). Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM To: Elzur, Uri >; sfc@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Uri, I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like= a "legacy SF" device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH hea= ders. Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move = packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the = SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. In my opinion, the issues of so-called "legacy" SFC are therefore elevated = in importance. We should be discussing "legacy and untrusted SF". E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 could be entitled, "SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF" -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_D269FF8146E82smajeef5com_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <9160EB72BE87BF42B83966F0E6BF7DF4@F5.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am bit lost on this whole trust issue. If there is concern about tru= sting a particular SF it should go beyond just NSH headers. How does rcving= SF-B knows that payload is really from SF-A, or is the src_ip is not spoof= ed? There are many ways to solve those. 
 
So what is the concern,
   A) non transport level encryption scheme(all practical sc= heme has built in authentication)  doesn’t protect NSH payload?<= /div>
   B) Rcving SF must be able to verify that NSH hdr came fro= m SF-A or more generally produced by one of the trusted SF?

I can smell yet another mess of shared secret and associated infrastru= cture mess… 

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ron Parker <= ;Ron_Parker@affirmednetw= orks.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 a= t 6:38 AM
To: Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>, "Elzur, Uri&quo= t; <uri.elzur@intel.com>, = "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust y= our SF?

Dave,

 

I agree with your anal= ysis.   What we’ve been thinking of as “legacy SFR= 21; (i.e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted= SF (i.e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH).

 

   Ron<= /o:p>

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM
To: Elzur, Uri <uri.elzur@= intel.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Uri,=

 

I think the consequenc= es of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like a “legacy SF= 221; device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH headers.=

Trusting the SF with N= SH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move packets to any chain, = perhaps crossing tenant boundaries.

 

So therefore, SFs usin= g NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the SF-Proxy approach if o= perators have untrusted SFs.

 

In my opinion, the iss= ues of so-called “legacy” SFC are therefore elevated in importa= nce. We should be discussing “legacy and untrusted SF”.

E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06

could be entitled, = 220;SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF”

 

-Dave

 

 

From: sfc [mailt= o:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_D269FF8146E82smajeef5com_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 14:39:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E90E1B395D for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:39:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SLzr_itw4hME for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:39:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11571B395C for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:39:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by WTL-EXCHP-3.sandvine.com ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:39:44 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: Sumandra Majee , Ron Parker , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVZFiGO/1AuG0GyjOiLT/Ut556X+7xQgADNYgCAACclAIAAC58D Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:39:43 +0000 Message-ID: <20151112223940.594948115.36028.48414@sandvine.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:39:45 -0000 I think the basic conclusion is that NSH-aware SFs must be trusted. This m=FDeans one cannot have NSH-aware tenants in the same way that one ca= n have virtual-machine tenants--which can be isolated. From: Sumandra Majee Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:58 AM To: Ron Parker; Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? I am bit lost on this whole trust issue. If there is concern about trusting= a particular SF it should go beyond just NSH headers. How does rcving SF-B= knows that payload is really from SF-A, or is the src_ip is not spoofed? T= here are many ways to solve those. So what is the concern, A) non transport level encryption scheme(all practical scheme has built = in authentication) doesn=92t protect NSH payload? B) Rcving SF must be able to verify that NSH hdr came from SF-A or more = generally produced by one of the trusted SF? I can smell yet another mess of shared secret and associated infrastructure= mess=85 From: sfc > on behalf of = Ron Parker > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 6:38 AM To: Dave Dolson >, "Elzur= , Uri" >, "sfc@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Dave, I agree with your analysis. What we=92ve been thinking of as =93legacy SF= =94 (i.e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted= SF (i.e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NS= H). Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM To: Elzur, Uri >; sfc@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Uri, I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like= a =93legacy SF=94 device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH= headers. Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move = packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the = SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. In my opinion, the issues of so-called =93legacy=94 SFC are therefore eleva= ted in importance. We should be discussing =93legacy and untrusted SF=94. E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 could be entitled, =93SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF=94 -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I=92d like to surfa= ce this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the d= iscussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF= (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention = may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be= there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a =93Classifier=94 is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Pro= xy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound=85 There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From nobody Thu Nov 12 14:44:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3791B397C for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:44:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krOHLaDJLaGh for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F8001B397F for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06EE21C07A1; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:44:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CFD241C0669; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:44:19 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Dolson , Sumandra Majee , Ron Parker , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <20151112223940.594948115.36028.48414@sandvine.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5645163F.2060801@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:44:15 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151112223940.594948115.36028.48414@sandvine.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1256; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:44:29 -0000 Trust is not usually an all-or-nothing proposition. NSH aware SF (and even non-NSH-aware SF) are trusted to do certain things, and to not do certain things. The more you have to trust it, the more constraints (testing, whatever). So being able to say that I only trust this SF so much is helpful. Strictly necessary? Probably not. But being able to indicate that certain restrictions should be checked if possible seems desirable. And being able to restrict the what kinds of trust are given allows the operator more flexibility. Just for context, even operations staff are not trusted to do everything. They have roles, and permissions based on those roles. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 5:39 PM, Dave Dolson wrote: > I think the basic conclusion is that NSH-aware SFs must be trusted. > > This mýeans one cannot have NSH-aware tenants in the same way that one can have virtual-machine tenants--which can be isolated. > > > > From: Sumandra Majee > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 1:58 AM > To: Ron Parker; Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > > I am bit lost on this whole trust issue. If there is concern about trusting a particular SF it should go beyond just NSH headers. How does rcving SF-B knows that payload is really from SF-A, or is the src_ip is not spoofed? There are many ways to solve those. > > So what is the concern, > A) non transport level encryption scheme(all practical scheme has built in authentication) doesn’t protect NSH payload? > B) Rcving SF must be able to verify that NSH hdr came from SF-A or more generally produced by one of the trusted SF? > > I can smell yet another mess of shared secret and associated infrastructure mess… > > From: sfc > on behalf of Ron Parker > > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 6:38 AM > To: Dave Dolson >, "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ietf.org" > > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Dave, > > I agree with your analysis. What we’ve been thinking of as “legacy SF” (i.e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted SF (i.e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH). > > Ron > > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM > To: Elzur, Uri >; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Uri, > > I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like a “legacy SF” device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH headers. > Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. > > So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. > > In my opinion, the issues of so-called “legacy” SFC are therefore elevated in importance. We should be discussing “legacy and untrusted SF”. > E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 > could be entitled, “SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF” > > -Dave > > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM > To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > Thx > > Uri (“Oo-Ree”) > C: 949-378-7568 > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri > Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > To: sfc@ietf.org > Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound… > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too. > > Thx > > Uri (“Oo-Ree”) > C: 949-378-7568 > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Thu Nov 12 16:30:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75AC91A8AEA for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:30:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NEgaYr-XSS2n for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from e39.co.us.ibm.com (e39.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.160]) (using TLSv1 with cipher CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0EE511A90FF for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by e39.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:30:38 -0700 X-IBM-Helo: d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com X-IBM-MailFrom: narten@us.ibm.com X-IBM-RcptTo: sfc@ietf.org Received: from b01cxnp22036.gho.pok.ibm.com (b01cxnp22036.gho.pok.ibm.com [9.57.198.26]) by d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9E4038C803B for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:30:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from d01av01.pok.ibm.com (d01av01.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.215]) by b01cxnp22036.gho.pok.ibm.com (8.14.9/8.14.9/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id tAD0UbjJ53870602 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:30:37 GMT Received: from d01av01.pok.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d01av01.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id tAD0UbKn012977 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:30:37 -0500 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com ([9.80.86.247]) by d01av01.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id tAD0Ua5B012863 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:30:36 -0500 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com.us.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.12.5) with ESMTP id tAD0UZYE020504; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:30:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:30:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Thomas Narten To: "Joel M. Halpern" In-Reply-To: <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/23.1 (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 15111300-0033-0000-0000-000006D153FA Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , Ron Parker Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:30:45 -0000 FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security requirements. There are two important nuances: 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature is enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable* its usage in the field. 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support the feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate matter left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to implement" is that an operator may not actually have the option to enable security if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" features. draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the following: REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be authenticated in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attacker. as intending 1. For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls for 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then be uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their customers (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind, for example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is the most reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to making the details something vendors think is useful, necessary and workable in practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat level. Thomas From nobody Thu Nov 12 16:50:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE1B1ACCEB for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:50:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oILvw2mrvIQR for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F112B1A1AB5 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E076F258B1C; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7F33F240ADB; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 16:49:44 -0800 (PST) To: Thomas Narten References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 19:49:40 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , Ron Parker Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:50:01 -0000 When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to every packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to implement) there is real cost in meeting such a requirement. Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the meeting in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has WG consensus, and I think it is an over-reach. Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified and well integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to implement seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be a flat lie. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security > requirements. There are two important nuances: > > 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature is > enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable* its > usage in the field. > > 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is > mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support the > feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate matter > left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to implement" is > that an operator may not actually have the option to enable security > if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" features. > > draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present > on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the > following: > > REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be authenticated > in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attacker. > > as intending 1. > > For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls for > 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then be > uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their customers > (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind, for > example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is the most > reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to making the > details something vendors think is useful, necessary and workable in > practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat level. > > Thomas > > From nobody Thu Nov 12 20:59:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 015891B4003 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:59:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id unAp3NoVXkGd for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:59:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36A531B4001 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 20:59:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3174; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447390794; x=1448600394; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=NgSve0TwC52UQAd+6xOxyT15zmPF2dq+BTdORX32NZM=; b=KhWTBA6Rgb+4njOWTzDJiG+/ebpZPhdFN3cYJ033A5ZJNw8NIi+2l3Rz ADLQ29y65dVVR3fGSMHlhzNyR2EyqbpxH832r1i+rqt9/SNuk58SJfTFC KBj4OxmawB/pQiSsU5991reTLe4+LXAIBK0gxCXRh4oTCE5It8jReGwUX 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ApAgDgbUVW/4gNJK1egztTbwa+OQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WUXCoVvAoE3OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQBAQE3NAsMBAIBCBEEAQEBHgkHJws?= =?us-ascii?q?UCQgCBAENBQiIJg3DOQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEhlSEfok5BYVMk?= =?us-ascii?q?HwBiA2CYYIxgWKHZZMEAR8BAUKEBHKENoEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,285,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="207303022" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 13 Nov 2015 04:59:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (xch-rcd-020.cisco.com [173.37.102.30]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAD4xrhX032173 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 04:59:53 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:59:52 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:59:52 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q/E0Hn9hQJP0yk2D/Yc/gPMZ6N8hGAgACUU4CACwRhgIAABVUA///drYA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 04:59:52 +0000 Message-ID: <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.74.211] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Ron Parker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 04:59:56 -0000 Authenticating SFC encapsulation is required to prevent various attacks lik= e man-in-middle attacker modifying NSH, attacker sending spoofed NSH etc. T= he reason the requirement is saying 'MUST' is to do our best to provide BCP= for NSH security, if an operator turn-off security then it's a risk he is = willing to take. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:20 AM > To: Thomas Narten > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >=20 > When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to every > packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to implement) > there is real cost in meeting such a requirement. >=20 > Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the meeting > in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has WG consensus, > and I think it is an over-reach. >=20 > Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified and we= ll > integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to implement > seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be a flat lie. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > > FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security > > requirements. There are two important nuances: > > > > 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature is > > enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable* its > > usage in the field. > > > > 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is > > mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support the > > feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate matter > > left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to implement" is > > that an operator may not actually have the option to enable security > > if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" features. > > > > draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present > > on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the > > following: > > > > REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be > authenticated > > in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attacke= r. > > > > as intending 1. > > > > For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls for > > 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then be > > uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their customers > > (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind, for > > example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is the most > > reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to making the > > details something vendors think is useful, necessary and workable in > > practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat level. > > > > Thomas > > > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 12 21:37:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6441B4053 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id joF4rWX7cuqt for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F1D1B4052 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:41 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,285,1444719600"; d="scan'208";a="850108208" Received: from orsmsx103.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.130]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:42 -0800 Received: from orsmsx114.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.91]) by ORSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.103]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:41 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: Ron Parker , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHV4JNN2Jxklnn0yE8m4Y59bhj56ZCbiAgAAsQ5A= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:40 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF94@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:43 -0000 (Reply #2, may want to read the other one first) Pls note comments on other mail on this thread. One of the implications of = the trust is elimination of a potential SFF requirements to keep state for = enforcing "correct" SF behavior. Some SF must be trusted as they can change= even the internal packet too. if he SF is "not trusted' then the SFF shoul= d check the internal headers too... and so we should debate if we even have a class of "unstusted SF" that are= processing only a portion of the NSH header (e.g. SI). Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 -----Original Message----- From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 7:31 AM To: Joel M. Halpern; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Joel, As optional behavior for SFF, a stateful SFF would have the ability to enfo= rce policy regarding attached SF's authorization to change path-id, remove = meta-data, add meta-data, change meta-data, etc. Ron -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:23 AM To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service functio= n will not modify the service path identification, even while they expect i= t to consume and produce metadata. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > Hi > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in=20 > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel=20 > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to=20 > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the=20 > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the=20 > map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is=20 > trusted for this operation. > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed=20 > the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake=20 > of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement=20 > or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not,=20 > the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the=20 > outbound... > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully=20 > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is=20 > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this=20 > for the NSH draft too. > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 12 21:37:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA001B4054 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kQOpccFugOOg for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BBAC1B4028 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:38 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,285,1444719600"; d="scan'208,217";a="850108190" Received: from orsmsx110.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.8]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:38 -0800 Received: from orsmsx152.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.226.39) by ORSMSX110.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:37 -0800 Received: from orsmsx114.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.91]) by ORSMSX152.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.204]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:36 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: Ron Parker , Dave Dolson , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRxVdX2Lz3depkuRzRNYC1xZY56Y+1sAgAAwvcA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:35 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF8B@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF8BORSMSX114amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:45 -0000 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF8BORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Few comments 1) The NSH draft right now, is careful stating that an SF can ONLY dec= rement the SI and technically can't change the SPI and w/o a classifier can= 't change metadata ("Context Header") either. It is not easy/possible from = an SFF point of view to tell which SF comprises a Classifier too or not. wi= thout Control Plane indication the SFF can't tell if an SF is to be trusted= or not. Now, this has implications. 2) A Trusted SF - may be / should be privy to the whole external pack= et, as it may need it for further processing or simplification (e.g. in a m= ulti tenancy scenario be able to associate dup IP addresses with the right= tenant for employing diff policy/processing/SPI). As the SF is trusted, no= state in the SFF is required on the Tx, to ensure no abuse of the NSH (SI = or SPI). State may still be required somewhere, for the case an internal fi= eld has changed e.g. due to NAT which may change the classification results= and hence the forwarding/processing decision. 3) "Local circuit" concept (i.e. between the SFF and the SF) - becomes= optional. One may prefer Eth+NSH locally as an example, and use some form = of tunneling outside on the "transport", but one may also simply extend the= "tunnel" to the SF too. This promotes also, the question of the vTEP for t= he external "transport". The local vSwitch (integrated w the SFF or not) sh= ould have that responsibility. This is a bit out of scope for the SFC WG, t= hough. 4) Legacy and Proxy - the SFF is to be programmed as to what encapsul= ation to use on the "local circuit" . A Proxy is a trusted entity and there= fore is no different from a trusted SF as above. A legacy SF is not partici= pating in NSH processing and so it is may be irrelevant if it is to trusted= or not.. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 6:38 AM To: Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Dave, I agree with your analysis. What we've been thinking of as "legacy SF" (i= .e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted SF (i= .e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH). Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM To: Elzur, Uri >; sfc@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Uri, I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like= a "legacy SF" device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH hea= ders. Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move = packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the = SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. In my opinion, the issues of so-called "legacy" SFC are therefore elevated = in importance. We should be discussing "legacy and untrusted SF". E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 could be entitled, "SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF" -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF8BORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Few comments

 

1)&n= bsp;     The NSH draft = right now, is careful stating that an SF can ONLY decrement the SI and tech= nically can’t change the SPI and w/o a classifier can’t change = metadata (“Context Header”) either. It is not easy/possible from an SFF point of view to tell which SF comprises a Class= ifier too or not. without Control Plane indication the SFF can’t tell= if an SF is to be trusted or not. Now, this has implications.

2)&n= bsp;     A Trusted SF &= #8211; may be / should be  privy to the whole external packet, as it m= ay need it for further processing or simplification (e.g. in a multi tenanc= y scenario be able to associate dup  IP addresses with the right tenant for employing diff policy/processing/SPI). As the SF= is trusted, no state in the SFF is required on the Tx, to ensure no abuse = of the NSH (SI or SPI). State may still be required somewhere, for the case= an internal field has changed e.g. due to NAT which may change the classification results and hence the forwa= rding/processing decision.

3)&n= bsp;     “Local c= ircuit” concept (i.e. between the SFF and the SF) – becomes opt= ional. One may prefer Eth+NSH locally as an example, and use some form = of tunneling outside on the “transport”, but one may also simply extend the “tunnel” to the SF too. This promotes also, = the question of the vTEP for the external “transport”. The loca= l vSwitch (integrated w the SFF or not) should have that responsibility. Th= is is a bit out of scope for the SFC WG, though.

4)&n= bsp;     Legacy and Pro= xy -  the SFF is to be programmed as to what encapsulation to use on t= he “local circuit” . A Proxy is a trusted entity and therefore = is no different from a trusted SF as above. A legacy SF is not participating in NSH processing and so it is may be irrelevant i= f it is to trusted or not..

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmedn= etworks.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 6:38 AM
To: Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Dave,

 

I agree with your anal= ysis.   What we’ve been thinking of as “legacy SFR= 21; (i.e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted= SF (i.e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH).

 

   Ron<= /o:p>

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM
To: Elzur, Uri <uri.elzur@= intel.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Uri,=

 

I think the consequenc= es of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like a “legacy SF= 221; device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH headers.=

Trusting the SF with N= SH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move packets to any chain, = perhaps crossing tenant boundaries.

 

So therefore, SFs usin= g NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the SF-Proxy approach if o= perators have untrusted SFs.

 

In my opinion, the iss= ues of so-called “legacy” SFC are therefore elevated in importa= nce. We should be discussing “legacy and untrusted SF”.

E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06

could be entitled, = 220;SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF”

 

-Dave

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF8BORSMSX114amrcor_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 21:38:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B72E1B4059 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YBfNAlpl7kYX for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga09.intel.com (mga09.intel.com [134.134.136.24]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF471B4057 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmga001.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.18]) by orsmga102.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:46 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,285,1444719600"; d="scan'208";a="818866829" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by orsmga001.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:46 -0800 Received: from orsmsx114.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.91]) by ORSMSX105.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.4.246]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:46 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" , Ron Parker , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHV4JNN2Jxklnn0yE8m4Y59bhj56ZCbiAgAAV3QCAAEu+UA== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:45 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFB3@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.139] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:50 -0000 (reply #4, you may want to read them in order) I can see how the title "trust your SF" is implying this is part of the Sec= urity draft, sorry, but this was not my intention. At least not the main re= ason for the message. . To me this is more part of the arch and NSH discuss= ion as to the provisions of an SF and the state/enforcement required by an = SFF Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haeffner, Walter, Voda= fone DE Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:50 AM To: Ron Parker; Joel M. Halpern; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Ron, Joel, Uri, WG, >From my humble network operator's point of view: The SF security discussio= n lost any relation to reality. You could ask, do you trust the network, th= e operator? Operators enforce policies and handle metadata (data plane, co= ntrol plane) in the network, in SFCs, for charging etc. since ever. =20 If a SF is not doing what I expect, I would fix this issue (inhouse, or wit= h the vendor). =20 The discussion about reclassification indicates that we probably should exp= lain this mechanism in some more detail in an existing draft (control plan= e draft?). Will the SF itself modify a SFF forwarding table or is SF going = to trigger C-Plane to modify forwarding table(s)? I would prefer the latter= . Cheers, Walter -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Ron Parker Gesendet: Donnerstag, 12. November 2015 16:31 An: Joel M. Halpern; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Joel, As optional behavior for SFF, a stateful SFF would have the ability to enfo= rce policy regarding attached SF's authorization to change path-id, remove = meta-data, add meta-data, change meta-data, etc. Ron -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 10:23 AM To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service functio= n will not modify the service path identification, even while they expect i= t to consume and produce metadata. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > Hi > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in=20 > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel=20 > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to=20 > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the=20 > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the=20 > map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is=20 > trusted for this operation. > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed=20 > the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake=20 > of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement=20 > or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not,=20 > the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the=20 > outbound... > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully=20 > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is=20 > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this=20 > for the NSH draft too. > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 12 21:38:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5771B4057 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qtjAEjLh0deH for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15EC1B4056 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:45 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,285,1444719600"; d="scan'208,217";a="850108223" Received: from orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.129]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:46 -0800 Received: from orsmsx114.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.91]) by ORSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.190]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:45 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHWP2QPh/sCJgiEiQkT8QZOnYVJ6ZFLGAgAAi7/A= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:44 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6ORSMSX114amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:54 -0000 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6ORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6ORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

(reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly=

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenn= o@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

&n= bsp;

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" = <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

[Chair = hat off …]

&n= bsp;

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

&n= bsp;

Jim

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

--_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6ORSMSX114amrcor_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 21:38:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE83C1B4057 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DmoAQ4BHypgA for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA951B4058 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:47 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,285,1444719600"; d="scan'208,217";a="850108228" Received: from orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.129]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2015 21:37:48 -0800 Received: from orsmsx153.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.226.247) by ORSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.129) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:47 -0800 Received: from orsmsx114.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.91]) by ORSMSX153.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.12.146]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:37:47 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: Sumandra Majee , Ron Parker , Dave Dolson , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRxVdX2Lz3depkuRzRNYC1xZY56Y+1sAgAAnJACAAEpPcA== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:46 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFC1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.139] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFC1ORSMSX114amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:37:58 -0000 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFC1ORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Reply #6, you may want to read them in order) It is about the normative text in the arch an NSH draft and the provisions = allowed for an SF. If trusted to decrement the SI, why not change the SPI. = If not what is the requirement for SFF enforcement etc. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Sumandra Majee [mailto:S.Majee@F5.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:58 AM To: Ron Parker; Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? I am bit lost on this whole trust issue. If there is concern about trusting= a particular SF it should go beyond just NSH headers. How does rcving SF-B= knows that payload is really from SF-A, or is the src_ip is not spoofed? T= here are many ways to solve those. So what is the concern, A) non transport level encryption scheme(all practical scheme has built = in authentication) doesn't protect NSH payload? B) Rcving SF must be able to verify that NSH hdr came from SF-A or more = generally produced by one of the trusted SF? I can smell yet another mess of shared secret and associated infrastructure= mess... From: sfc > on behalf of = Ron Parker > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 6:38 AM To: Dave Dolson >, "Elzur= , Uri" >, "sfc@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Dave, I agree with your analysis. What we've been thinking of as "legacy SF" (i= .e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted SF (i= .e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH). Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM To: Elzur, Uri >; sfc@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Uri, I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like= a "legacy SF" device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH hea= ders. Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move = packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the = SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. In my opinion, the issues of so-called "legacy" SFC are therefore elevated = in importance. We should be discussing "legacy and untrusted SF". E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 could be entitled, "SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF" -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFC1ORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

(Reply #6, you may want to read them in order)<= /p>

 

It is about the normat= ive text in the arch an NSH draft and the provisions allowed for an SF. If = trusted to decrement the SI, why not change the SPI. If not what is the req= uirement for SFF enforcement etc.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Sumandra Majee [mailto:S.Majee@F5.com] =
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:58 AM
To: Ron Parker; Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

I am bi= t lost on this whole trust issue. If there is concern about trusting a part= icular SF it should go beyond just NSH headers. How does rcving SF-B knows = that payload is really from SF-A, or is the src_ip is not spoofed? There are many ways to solve those. 

 <= o:p>

So what= is the concern,

  =  A) non transport level encryption scheme(all practical scheme has bui= lt in authentication)  doesn’t protect NSH payload?

  =  B) Rcving SF must be able to verify that NSH hdr came from SF-A or mo= re generally produced by one of the trusted SF?

&n= bsp;

I can s= mell yet another mess of shared secret and associated infrastructure mess&#= 8230; 

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ron Parker <Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 6:38 AM
To: Dave Dolson <ddolson@= sandvine.com>, "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.or= g>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

Dave,

 

I agree with your anal= ysis.   What we’ve been thinking of as “legacy SFR= 21; (i.e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted= SF (i.e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH).

 

   Ron

 

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM
To: Elzur, Uri <uri.elzur@= intel.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Uri,

 

I think the consequenc= es of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like a “legacy SF= 221; device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH headers.

Trusting the SF with N= SH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move packets to any chain, = perhaps crossing tenant boundaries.=

 

So therefore, SFs usin= g NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the SF-Proxy approach if o= perators have untrusted SFs.<= /span>

 

In my opinion, the iss= ues of so-called “legacy” SFC are therefore elevated in importa= nce. We should be discussing “legacy and untrusted SF”.<= span style=3D"color:black">

E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06<= span style=3D"color:black">

could be entitled, = 220;SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF”

 

-Dave

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

--_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFC1ORSMSX114amrcor_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 21:47:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38F71B4068 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DFlVSQKiOem7 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD0AA1B406E for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6DE9240ADB; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49E88240C32; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:13 -0800 (PST) To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Thomas Narten References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com> <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5645795E.30003@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:47:10 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Ron Parker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:47:15 -0000 Conversely, if the operators do not want it, and including it (authentication capability) in the product at suitable scale will introduce noticeable real costs, mandating implementation in the RFC is merely a recipe for almost all vendors to fudge in their descriptions of what they offer. Mandating that we make it available is defensible, but really hard to make meaningful in practice. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 11:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > Authenticating SFC encapsulation is required to prevent various attacks like man-in-middle attacker modifying NSH, attacker sending spoofed NSH etc. The reason the requirement is saying 'MUST' is to do our best to provide BCP for NSH security, if an operator turn-off security then it's a risk he is willing to take. > > -Tiru > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:20 AM >> To: Thomas Narten >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker >> Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >> >> When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to every >> packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to implement) >> there is real cost in meeting such a requirement. >> >> Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the meeting >> in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has WG consensus, >> and I think it is an over-reach. >> >> Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified and well >> integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to implement >> seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be a flat lie. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: >>> FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security >>> requirements. There are two important nuances: >>> >>> 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature is >>> enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable* its >>> usage in the field. >>> >>> 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is >>> mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support the >>> feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate matter >>> left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to implement" is >>> that an operator may not actually have the option to enable security >>> if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" features. >>> >>> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present >>> on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the >>> following: >>> >>> REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be >> authenticated >>> in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attacker. >>> >>> as intending 1. >>> >>> For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls for >>> 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then be >>> uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their customers >>> (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind, for >>> example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is the most >>> reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to making the >>> details something vendors think is useful, necessary and workable in >>> practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat level. >>> >>> Thomas >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Thu Nov 12 21:47:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1664B1B406D for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CDbyiB-67EOA for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.f5.com (mail.f5.com [208.85.209.139]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19C8B1B406E for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=f5.com; i=@f5.com; q=dns/txt; s=seattle; t=1447393661; x=1478929661; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=IT9dCRUbcuoPFqvZrrSl+PRMKc5WsS+Su88sj8+JMGA=; b=CsZYO+yHqzm8BwiXx+XIpWE1yJWerO7/Oaway/EvPSoTMKWWWu5BZJ7F kuN2R2ofkxk5EkmNqawWDquNOMxQX0A+jMwPaLUtvzQlz8ahdFs3dTBEj zVN1jOIBa5rS1d8wwi4SjMo07khwTxsrjyaIYlLk/OvUPutxmYjeYs/tE E=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,286,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="188081719" X-IPAS-Result: A2HOHAC5eEVW/+sKqMBeGQEBAQEPAQEBAQYBAQEBg1RvBq4uAYF7AY96BxcKhW8CggUBAQEBAQEEgQeCThQQAQEBAQEBTwI+LQEBAQEDAQEBawsMBAIBCBEEAQEBCR4HDxgLFAkIAgQBDQWIO8M0AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASGVIR+hFmEYAWFTIgIiHSIDoJhhBOHZZMFhGdyhDaBBwEBAQ Received: from oracle-apps.f5net.com (HELO exchmail.f5net.com) ([192.168.10.235]) by mail.f5.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 05:47:40 +0000 Received: from SEAEXCHMBX04.olympus.F5Net.com (192.168.15.226) by seaexchmbx02.olympus.F5Net.com (192.168.15.224) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1044.25; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:39 -0800 Received: from SEAEXCHMBX04.olympus.F5Net.com ([fe80::c9a6:e310:2052:6c8a]) by SEAEXCHMBX04.olympus.F5Net.com ([fe80::c9a6:e310:2052:6c8a%21]) with mapi id 15.00.1044.021; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 21:47:39 -0800 From: Ian Smith To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q8fjhciUsDIEqc5EQnAEI6Fp6OE5iAgACUU4CACwRhgIAABVUAgABF6AD//4HMRw== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:47:38 +0000 Message-ID: <1447393658614.36390@F5.com> References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com>, <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.168.15.239] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , Ron Parker Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 05:47:43 -0000 Integrity of both the data and the origin can (and perhaps should) be provi= ded using AH - an already standardized, and implemented mechanism for preve= nting such threats at the network level. It seems far-fetched that we're e= ntertaining the idea that up-stack protocols need to re-invent AH to satisf= y data and origin integrity requirements.=0A= =0A= If an implementer would like to use NSH on a non-IP network, it should be e= nough to simply say that they must provide the appropriate analog for AH, i= f it exists and note the repercussions of using an NSH conveyance which lac= ks data and origin integrity assurance.=0A= =0A= If the argument is that IPSec is too to use for NSH, then that i= s, explicitly, a statement that data and origin integrity aren't important = enough to make the (arguably less than re-inventing AH) effort to provide t= he security. =0A= =0A= So, we could be hard line and put MUST's in that will be ignored, or we cou= ld be adventurous and shim into the NSH specification a lesser integrity me= chanism that will require defense and maintenance, or we could be pragmatic= and stipulate the use of existing technology to satisfy the concerns being= raised while noting that the lack of enthusiasm for those existing technol= ogies belies a pre-existing judgement about the validity of those concerns = in real usage.=0A= =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: sfc on behalf of Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) = =0A= Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:59 PM=0A= To: Joel M. Halpern; Thomas Narten=0A= Cc: Ron Parker; sfc@ietf.org=0A= Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14=0A= =0A= Authenticating SFC encapsulation is required to prevent various attacks lik= e man-in-middle attacker modifying NSH, attacker sending spoofed NSH etc. T= he reason the requirement is saying 'MUST' is to do our best to provide BCP= for NSH security, if an operator turn-off security then it's a risk he is = willing to take.=0A= =0A= -Tiru=0A= =0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A= > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern=0A= > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:20 AM=0A= > To: Thomas Narten=0A= > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker=0A= > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14=0A= >=0A= > When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to every= =0A= > packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to implement)= =0A= > there is real cost in meeting such a requirement.=0A= >=0A= > Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the meeting= =0A= > in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has WG consensus,= =0A= > and I think it is an over-reach.=0A= >=0A= > Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified and we= ll=0A= > integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to implement=0A= > seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be a flat lie.= =0A= >=0A= > Yours,=0A= > Joel=0A= >=0A= > On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote:=0A= > > FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security=0A= > > requirements. There are two important nuances:=0A= > >=0A= > > 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature is= =0A= > > enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable* its=0A= > > usage in the field.=0A= > >=0A= > > 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is=0A= > > mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support the=0A= > > feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate matter= =0A= > > left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to implement" is= =0A= > > that an operator may not actually have the option to enable security=0A= > > if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" features.=0A= > >=0A= > > draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present=0A= > > on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the=0A= > > following:=0A= > >=0A= > > REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be=0A= > authenticated=0A= > > in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attacke= r.=0A= > >=0A= > > as intending 1.=0A= > >=0A= > > For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls for= =0A= > > 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then be=0A= > > uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their customers=0A= > > (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind, for=0A= > > example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is the most= =0A= > > reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to making the=0A= > > details something vendors think is useful, necessary and workable in=0A= > > practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat level.=0A= > >=0A= > > Thomas=0A= > >=0A= > >=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > sfc mailing list=0A= > sfc@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc=0A= =0A= _______________________________________________=0A= sfc mailing list=0A= sfc@ietf.org=0A= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc=0A= From nobody Thu Nov 12 22:18:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA58F1B40BB for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aIunJoJd3D9T for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:18:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD7881B40B9 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:18:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5677; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447395521; x=1448605121; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=dbDYHpw0fEcuJ1SFLqo7wLIXHoi2eSjPOdwNpNbmqPc=; b=cSDl+CBEPotj0ak/VgTMCd8qlJd7u/MSBQQ1ImSAExqqHwJ7tRuqCsed +YsdxaFK/iBueAn9pzM8TSm/+rHCdWnIUiLiRCLgLDkunEBibR0SwvxQD Os004mxumHHNB26Ruya4a9T3MrBiw8SC/cQrncUaK2Zft6F0vyYvDcKN/ s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ApAgA1gEVW/4oNJK1egztTbwa+OQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WUXCoVvAoE6OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQBAQE3NAsMBAIBCA4DBAEBAR4JByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAgQBDQUIE4gTDcMuAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASGVIR+iTkFh?= =?us-ascii?q?UyQfAGIDYJhgjGBYodlkwQBHwEBQoQEcoQ2gQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,286,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="44547052" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 06:18:35 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (xch-rcd-019.cisco.com [173.37.102.29]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAD6IZkT005471 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:18:35 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-019.cisco.com (173.37.102.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:18:34 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:18:34 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Ian Smith , "Joel M. Halpern" , Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q/E0Hn9hQJP0yk2D/Yc/gPMZ6N8hGAgACUU4CACwRhgIAABVUA///drYCAAHWTAP//opgQ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:18:34 +0000 Message-ID: <931cc4f8237949dfa07135da0e2b6a96@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com>, <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <1447393658614.36390@F5.com> In-Reply-To: <1447393658614.36390@F5.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.47.186] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , Ron Parker Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:18:44 -0000 AH would meet the REQ-14, but REQ-15 won't be met by AH. We have to first d= iscuss and freeze the security requirements and then look into possible sol= utions. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian Smith [mailto:I.Smith@F5.com] > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 11:18 AM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Joel M. Halpern; Thomas Narten > Cc: Ron Parker; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >=20 > Integrity of both the data and the origin can (and perhaps should) be > provided using AH - an already standardized, and implemented mechanism > for preventing such threats at the network level. It seems far-fetched t= hat > we're entertaining the idea that up-stack protocols need to re-invent AH = to > satisfy data and origin integrity requirements. >=20 > If an implementer would like to use NSH on a non-IP network, it should be > enough to simply say that they must provide the appropriate analog for AH= , > if it exists and note the repercussions of using an NSH conveyance which > lacks data and origin integrity assurance. >=20 > If the argument is that IPSec is too to use for NSH, then that= is, > explicitly, a statement that data and origin integrity aren't important e= nough > to make the (arguably less than re-inventing AH) effort to provide the > security. >=20 > So, we could be hard line and put MUST's in that will be ignored, or we c= ould > be adventurous and shim into the NSH specification a lesser integrity > mechanism that will require defense and maintenance, or we could be > pragmatic and stipulate the use of existing technology to satisfy the con= cerns > being raised while noting that the lack of enthusiasm for those existing > technologies belies a pre-existing judgement about the validity of those > concerns in real usage. >=20 >=20 > ________________________________________ > From: sfc on behalf of Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy= ) > > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:59 PM > To: Joel M. Halpern; Thomas Narten > Cc: Ron Parker; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >=20 > Authenticating SFC encapsulation is required to prevent various attacks l= ike > man-in-middle attacker modifying NSH, attacker sending spoofed NSH etc. > The reason the requirement is saying 'MUST' is to do our best to provide = BCP > for NSH security, if an operator turn-off security then it's a risk he is= willing to > take. >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:20 AM > > To: Thomas Narten > > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker > > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 > > > > When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to > > every packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to > > implement) there is real cost in meeting such a requirement. > > > > Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the > > meeting in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has WG > > consensus, and I think it is an over-reach. > > > > Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified and > > well integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to > > implement seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be = a > flat lie. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > > > FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security > > > requirements. There are two important nuances: > > > > > > 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature > > > is enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable* > > > its usage in the field. > > > > > > 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is > > > mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support > the > > > feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate > > > matter left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to > > > implement" is that an operator may not actually have the option to > > > enable security if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" > features. > > > > > > draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present > > > on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the > > > following: > > > > > > REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be > > authenticated > > > in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attac= ker. > > > > > > as intending 1. > > > > > > For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls > > > for 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then > > > be uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their > > > customers (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind, > > > for example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is > > > the most reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to > > > making the details something vendors think is useful, necessary and > > > workable in practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat = level. > > > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 12 22:31:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094AC1B40D8 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:31:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zAh0J_kO5ka7 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:31:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0E2F1ACE81 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:31:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4505; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447396267; x=1448605867; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=Qhzb6GZwTQWteswcJmieJQmwm/gBRjqxilrHu9YBoM8=; b=jF/6psdA8QijCBQWWXvvSS31s1vQwS+OrdbFLu0+G4Sb3MSkx6PDM7bE ORvsVwAJ4n/hdW3qMiZH+Z5tOicUzOsco8s2AF6Al2+XFpDicmOTr8bYN 6cyU7UtAmZ7Ky/njfm7bcmmuXoPM6Sh8zr+CD1cOK1/TcbQF/wfHgj+fP I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ApAgDggUVW/4YNJK1egztTbwa+OQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WUXCoVvAoE7OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQMBAQEBNzQLDAQCAQgRBAEBAR4JByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAgQBDQUIiB4IDcMjAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASGVIR+iTkFh?= =?us-ascii?q?UyQfAGIDYJhgjGBYodljxODcQEfAQFChARyhDaBBwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,286,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="46332445" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 06:31:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (xch-rcd-016.cisco.com [173.37.102.26]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAD6V5pt023856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:31:05 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:31:04 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:31:05 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q/E0Hn9hQJP0yk2D/Yc/gPMZ6N8hGAgACUU4CACwRhgIAABVUA///drYCAAHVyAP//pGRw Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:31:05 +0000 Message-ID: <61d64c31a4014320a4d6f494602aae8b@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com> <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <5645795E.30003@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <5645795E.30003@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.47.186] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Ron Parker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:31:10 -0000 Yes, security comes at a cost and with the current threat landscape, REQ14 = is saying it's MUST. I understand your point, we should discuss the negativ= e implications if REQ14 is changed to "SHOULD" or "RECOMMENDED". If NSH security is not implemented and SFC is subjected to attacks then ope= rators will not even have the option protect NSH. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 11:17 AM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Thomas Narten > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >=20 > Conversely, if the operators do not want it, and including it (authentica= tion > capability) in the product at suitable scale will introduce noticeable re= al costs, > mandating implementation in the RFC is merely a recipe for almost all > vendors to fudge in their descriptions of what they offer. Mandating tha= t we > make it available is defensible, but really hard to make meaningful in > practice. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/12/15 11:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > > Authenticating SFC encapsulation is required to prevent various attacks= like > man-in-middle attacker modifying NSH, attacker sending spoofed NSH etc. > The reason the requirement is saying 'MUST' is to do our best to provide = BCP > for NSH security, if an operator turn-off security then it's a risk he is= willing to > take. > > > > -Tiru > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:20 AM > >> To: Thomas Narten > >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker > >> Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 > >> > >> When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to > >> every packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to > >> implement) there is real cost in meeting such a requirement. > >> > >> Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the > >> meeting in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has > >> WG consensus, and I think it is an over-reach. > >> > >> Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified > >> and well integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to > >> implement seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be > a flat lie. > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > >>> FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security > >>> requirements. There are two important nuances: > >>> > >>> 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature > >>> is enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable* > >>> its usage in the field. > >>> > >>> 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is > >>> mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support > the > >>> feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate > >>> matter left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to > >>> implement" is that an operator may not actually have the option to > >>> enable security if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" > features. > >>> > >>> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present > >>> on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the > >>> following: > >>> > >>> REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be > >> authenticated > >>> in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an atta= cker. > >>> > >>> as intending 1. > >>> > >>> For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls > >>> for 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then > >>> be uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their > >>> customers (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind, > >>> for example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is > >>> the most reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to > >>> making the details something vendors think is useful, necessary and > >>> workable in practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat = level. > >>> > >>> Thomas > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sfc mailing list > >> sfc@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > From nobody Thu Nov 12 22:33:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D061B40E3 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:33:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ArvUYeLLP-OC for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4DE21B40E1 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:33:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=17585; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447396413; x=1448606013; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=yo8V0S+ob0TaXFeVLSMCKh8OZwydVanvq21mFkf9CA0=; b=UQwH0BQcTVO6cBuIjD3Xy+LHXg+9A4eRKrLUxks7tScN2v54GwXxJOSy +NYIq6BTAi07GFAOGaMbWd0ZKtQzHr4FVBqu4olZwziCyvh7NLQqUNTU5 4TtjUsMqMbDUV7gnBfZt1a1FzKbw1c0VyPzijZJxQDiCzWcBQzNZHfjvM 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AoAgDygkVW/5tdJa1bA4JuTVNvBr45A?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2BZSOFbQKBOzgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEEJwY/ChMCAQgRAwEBASgHMhQJCAI?= =?us-ascii?q?EARIIiCYNwyQBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIZUhH6EaBMBDAkRhBcFi?= =?us-ascii?q?B2OKwGFHIgDgWKSFoRig3EBHwEBQoIRHYFWcoQ2gQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,286,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="207861675" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 06:33:32 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (xch-rcd-009.cisco.com [173.37.102.19]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAD6XW8S002930 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:33:32 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:33:31 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:33:32 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHWPy1kUYkzkbnUOLk0v1kIRkSp6Y8yqAgACMLoA= Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:33:31 +0000 Message-ID: <348d84d5f11848f9a028ef5e0e56dfca@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.47.186] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_348d84d5f11848f9a028ef5e0e56dfcaXCHRCD017ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:33:37 -0000 --_000_348d84d5f11848f9a028ef5e0e56dfcaXCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00= #section-7 is already discussing NSH security aspects. -Tiru From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Reinaldo Penno (repenn= o) Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:41 PM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_348d84d5f11848f9a028ef5e0e56dfcaXCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00#sect= ion-7 is already discussing NSH security aspects.

 

-Tiru

 

From: sfc [mai= lto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Reinaldo Penno (repenno)
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:41 PM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

&n= bsp;

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" = <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

[Chair = hat off …]

&n= bsp;

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

&n= bsp;

Jim

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

--_000_348d84d5f11848f9a028ef5e0e56dfcaXCHRCD017ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 22:42:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438D51B40FA for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:42:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p3KCvkxzeD44 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 236CB1B40F8 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 22:42:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=14325; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447396946; x=1448606546; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=G7ZJ2wb2xnfKc0rwePOHcArKA5eVwOmfVqHM/MJHXzY=; b=ausMHGGmZhJaAyHQetIbpb96FtKLyJj1VuBLUrXOd4LdSHGgBWt0tSAa igjdY0qSUEPss/SM8fpIIi3s6RSKhv8PgqHBYgDzbEBCO8lRJrg2VtQRU CAPAT+0aYE1s6sGwTOwDsrLUMfL3b1p6gD/e48p+L6cO2PvapzAO46gM1 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AoAgAIhkVW/5FdJa1bA4JuTVNvBr46AQ2BZYYQAoE7OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQnBj8KEwIBCBEDAQEBKAcyFAkIAgQBEgiIJsMuAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGIZUhH6EaBMBFRGEFwWIHY4rAY0fgWKSFoRig3EBHwEBQoQEcoQ2gQcBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,286,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="207897377" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 06:42:09 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (xch-aln-007.cisco.com [173.36.7.17]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAD6g9NQ008399 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:42:09 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:42:08 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 00:42:08 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHWPy1kUYkzkbnUOLk0v1kIRkSp6Zf+EQ Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:42:08 +0000 Message-ID: <496bb84d4a5342eca633574aa1c81f5f@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.47.186] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_496bb84d4a5342eca633574aa1c81f5fXCHRCD017ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:42:29 -0000 --_000_496bb84d4a5342eca633574aa1c81f5fXCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agreed, SF are trusted network elements. A untrusted SF can do lot of damag= e (clone traffic to attacker, leak privacy sensitive info etc.) -Tiru From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Guichard (jguichar= ) Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:35 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_496bb84d4a5342eca633574aa1c81f5fXCHRCD017ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Agreed, SF are trusted= network elements. A untrusted SF can do lot of damage (clone traffic to at= tacker, leak privacy sensitive info etc.)

 

-Tiru

From: sfc [mai= lto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Guichard (jguichar)
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:35 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

[Chair = hat off …]

&n= bsp;

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

&n= bsp;

Jim

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

--_000_496bb84d4a5342eca633574aa1c81f5fXCHRCD017ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Nov 12 23:24:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2371B4181 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 23:24:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NCiOgk2xIgYp for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 23:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 036D01B417D for ; Thu, 12 Nov 2015 23:24:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=22747; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447399494; x=1448609094; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=hCUkvdpGOSafi2jlwnN3srMrrq1oo78TCH1/27B8Bxs=; b=VWV/EXxiUF2iyH+LE0vT4Yho4A/62uHdNEERvtXdNxjV9c541xTXcwz/ ktRH2Pc0ag0tbyxXd8dtO0IAwVtCl4Y69MsXVbIhPiJf/KVeDbTSt5uOu 3LKeaDhLrLHxw9EgkvTrAGxxAeVvtRO6ls1gxl6SeW8Of67MOjNlseO8J A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AoAgA6j0VW/4MNJK1bA4JuTVNvBr46AQ2BZYYQAoE8OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQnBj8KEwIBCBEDAQEBIQcHMhQJCAIEARKILsMZAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGIZUhH6EaBMBFRGEFwWIHY4rAY0mgVuHZYoxhGKDcQEfAQFCghEdgVZyhDaBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,286,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="207744202" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 07:24:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (xch-rcd-008.cisco.com [173.37.102.18]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAD7OqSi003523 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:24:53 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:24:52 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 01:24:52 -0600 From: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" To: "Elzur, Uri" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVa0+xTCDtVR0Ky6Lo8W+YR+Z6YnmKA///PSICAAWeXAP//l8+A Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:24:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.32.97] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D26ACE441DB5Brepennociscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:24:57 -0000 --_000_D26ACE441DB5Brepennociscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.=94 It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off =85] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things =96 add routes to VRFs that= should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that= force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. Wh= at I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I= need for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from a= n SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect t= o receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I=92d like to surfa= ce this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the d= iscussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF= (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention = may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be= there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a =93Classifier=94 is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Pro= xy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound=85 There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 --_000_D26ACE441DB5Brepennociscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"The us= e model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF= .=94

It seems again we are conflating generic security requiremen= ts with NSH.  If you trust the device then you accept it being pa= rt of a chain. If a device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specific NSH att= acks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust issue, IP= networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out of scope = of this WG.    

Thanks,


From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 a= t 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <repenno@cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (jgu= ichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust y= our SF?

(reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly=

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

&n= bsp;

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

&n= bsp;

Thanks,=

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" = <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

[Chair = hat off =85]

&n= bsp;

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things =96 add routes to VRFs = that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes = that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .= . What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

&n= bsp;

Jim

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I=92d like to surface this issue and hope= fully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Map as= sisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a =93Classifier=94 is incorporated). If not, th= e SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound= =85

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

--_000_D26ACE441DB5Brepennociscocom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 06:12:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA331A88F4 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:12:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g3gIPaTKlIsn for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:12:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-6.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-6.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.56.71]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 383261A88EB for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:12:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-6.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.92]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 06:12:34 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q5xuabff0gtUet7dPFbRQaWp6N8hGAgACUU4CACwRhgIAABVUA///drYCAAJb5AIAABsig Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 14:12:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com> <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <5645795E.30003@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <5645795E.30003@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 14:12:37 -0000 I'll point out that SFC is not only for operators. It has application in = the enterprise, as well, where security concerns and practices may differ f= rom the operator environment. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]=20 Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 12:47 AM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) ; Thomas Narten Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Conversely, if the operators do not want it, and including it (authenticati= on capability) in the product at suitable scale will introduce noticeable r= eal costs, mandating implementation in the RFC is merely a recipe for almos= t all vendors to fudge in their descriptions of what they offer. Mandating= that we make it available is defensible, but really hard to make meaningfu= l in practice. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 11:59 PM, Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) wrote: > Authenticating SFC encapsulation is required to prevent various attacks l= ike man-in-middle attacker modifying NSH, attacker sending spoofed NSH etc.= The reason the requirement is saying 'MUST' is to do our best to provide B= CP for NSH security, if an operator turn-off security then it's a risk he i= s willing to take. > > -Tiru > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern >> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:20 AM >> To: Thomas Narten >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker >> Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >> >> When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to=20 >> every packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to=20 >> implement) there is real cost in meeting such a requirement. >> >> Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the=20 >> meeting in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has=20 >> WG consensus, and I think it is an over-reach. >> >> Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified=20 >> and well integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to=20 >> implement seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be a= flat lie. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: >>> FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security=20 >>> requirements. There are two important nuances: >>> >>> 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature=20 >>> is enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable*=20 >>> its usage in the field. >>> >>> 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is=20 >>> mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support the=20 >>> feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate=20 >>> matter left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to=20 >>> implement" is that an operator may not actually have the option to=20 >>> enable security if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" fea= tures. >>> >>> draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present=20 >>> on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the >>> following: >>> >>> REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be >> authenticated >>> in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attack= er. >>> >>> as intending 1. >>> >>> For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls=20 >>> for 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then=20 >>> be uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their=20 >>> customers (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind,=20 >>> for example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is=20 >>> the most reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to=20 >>> making the details something vendors think is useful, necessary and=20 >>> workable in practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat le= vel. >>> >>> Thomas >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Fri Nov 13 07:59:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6711AD084 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:59:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ECzwyEnku3F3 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from e34.co.us.ibm.com (e34.co.us.ibm.com [32.97.110.152]) (using TLSv1 with cipher CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42AF41AD080 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 07:59:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost by e34.co.us.ibm.com with IBM ESMTP SMTP Gateway: Authorized Use Only! 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Violators will be prosecuted; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:59:15 -0700 X-IBM-Helo: d03dlp02.boulder.ibm.com X-IBM-MailFrom: narten@us.ibm.com X-IBM-RcptTo: sfc@ietf.org Received: from b03cxnp08027.gho.boulder.ibm.com (b03cxnp08027.gho.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.130.19]) by d03dlp02.boulder.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A973C3E40047 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:59:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (d03av05.boulder.ibm.com [9.17.195.85]) by b03cxnp08027.gho.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.9/8.14.9/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id tADFxEdk56492058 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:59:14 -0700 Received: from d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id tADFxDS4026737 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:59:14 -0700 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com ([9.80.94.73]) by d03av05.boulder.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id tADFxCU5026664 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:59:13 -0700 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com.us.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.12.5) with ESMTP id tADFxBL7030684; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:59:11 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 10:59:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Thomas Narten To: Ron Parker In-Reply-To: References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com> <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <5645795E.30003@joelhalpern.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/23.1 (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 15111315-0017-0000-0000-00000F7BF7FE Archived-At: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 15:59:20 -0000 To be clear, when I used the term "operator", I meant it as a general way to refer to anyone who is actually involved in operation/deployment. That definitely includes enterprise deployments. At the end of the day, those actually using/deploying the technology carry the most weight (IMO) in terms of defining requirements. Thomas From nobody Fri Nov 13 08:25:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17CE1AD35D for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:25:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSk7Q4vaW7Xt for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3CDB1AD35A for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEB31723; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:25:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML705-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.142) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:25:17 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml705-chm ([10.193.5.142]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:25:12 -0800 From: Linda Dunbar To: Ian Smith , "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2rM2As28Sjho0GEHYq6zEOcSZ6OE5iAgACUU4CACwRhgIAABVUAgABF6ACAAA1YAIAAKyag Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:25:11 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657D820E6@dfweml701-chm> References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com>, <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <1447393658614.36390@F5.com> In-Reply-To: <1447393658614.36390@F5.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.47.129.113] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.56460EEF.02BE, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: ff765a95f5a23e8c339b03182f97bb0e Archived-At: Cc: Ron Parker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:25:25 -0000 +1.=20 It brings back my comments during the WG adoption for this draft. The secur= ity requirement for SFC can be very different under different deployment sc= enarios. In a closed deployment, e.g. all SFs and SFFs are directly attache= d and are placed in a enclosure of the provider CO, the security threats ar= e different from the SFs hosted in public cloud and attached to SFFs via pu= blic internet. Therefore, security requirement are different.=20 Linda=20 -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ian Smith Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:48 PM To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Joel M. Halpern; Thomas Narten Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Integrity of both the data and the origin can (and perhaps should) be provi= ded using AH - an already standardized, and implemented mechanism for preve= nting such threats at the network level. It seems far-fetched that we're e= ntertaining the idea that up-stack protocols need to re-invent AH to satisf= y data and origin integrity requirements. If an implementer would like to use NSH on a non-IP network, it should be e= nough to simply say that they must provide the appropriate analog for AH, i= f it exists and note the repercussions of using an NSH conveyance which lac= ks data and origin integrity assurance. If the argument is that IPSec is too to use for NSH, then that i= s, explicitly, a statement that data and origin integrity aren't important = enough to make the (arguably less than re-inventing AH) effort to provide t= he security. =20 So, we could be hard line and put MUST's in that will be ignored, or we cou= ld be adventurous and shim into the NSH specification a lesser integrity me= chanism that will require defense and maintenance, or we could be pragmatic= and stipulate the use of existing technology to satisfy the concerns being= raised while noting that the lack of enthusiasm for those existing technol= ogies belies a pre-existing judgement about the validity of those concerns = in real usage. =20 ________________________________________ From: sfc on behalf of Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) = Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:59 PM To: Joel M. Halpern; Thomas Narten Cc: Ron Parker; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Authenticating SFC encapsulation is required to prevent various attacks lik= e man-in-middle attacker modifying NSH, attacker sending spoofed NSH etc. T= he reason the requirement is saying 'MUST' is to do our best to provide BCP= for NSH security, if an operator turn-off security then it's a risk he is = willing to take. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:20 AM > To: Thomas Narten > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 > > When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to=20 > every packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to=20 > implement) there is real cost in meeting such a requirement. > > Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the=20 > meeting in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has WG=20 > consensus, and I think it is an over-reach. > > Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified and=20 > well integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to=20 > implement seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be a = flat lie. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > > FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security=20 > > requirements. There are two important nuances: > > > > 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature=20 > > is enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable*=20 > > its usage in the field. > > > > 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is=20 > > mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support the=20 > > feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate=20 > > matter left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to=20 > > implement" is that an operator may not actually have the option to=20 > > enable security if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" fea= tures. > > > > draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present=20 > > on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the > > following: > > > > REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be > authenticated > > in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attacke= r. > > > > as intending 1. > > > > For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls=20 > > for 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then=20 > > be uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their=20 > > customers (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind,=20 > > for example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is=20 > > the most reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to=20 > > making the details something vendors think is useful, necessary and=20 > > workable in practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat le= vel. > > > > Thomas > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Fri Nov 13 08:55:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B650B1B2B57 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:55:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bMuG2J2KKnlb for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga03.intel.com (mga03.intel.com [134.134.136.65]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F281B2B3C for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmga001.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.18]) by orsmga103.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 08:54:53 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,288,1444719600"; d="scan'208,217";a="819278455" Received: from orsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.5]) by orsmga001.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 08:54:52 -0800 Received: from orsmsx114.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.91]) by ORSMSX107.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.197]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 08:54:52 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHWP2QPh/sCJgiEiQkT8QZOnYVJ6ZFLGAgAAi7/CAANx6AIAAFdYw Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:54:51 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.138] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091EORSMSX114amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 16:55:21 -0000 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091EORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reinaldo It seems like we are arguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about= the security aspect, it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of = clarifying the potential role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. = no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role vs abusi= ng SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the latter= is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egress etc.= Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an "SF= can be trusted for NSH purposes" then it can lead to some simplifications= , I believe I'm also ok leaving status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and= proxy roles. But I do think that making the assumption like you make, that= the issue of the SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simpli= fy our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the NSH SPECIFC securi= ty aspects and this is on-going on the ml Hope this makes my comments a bit clearer Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF." It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091EORSMSX114amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Reinaldo

 

It seems like we are a= rguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about the security aspect, = it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of clarifying the potenti= al role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role v= s abusing SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the= latter is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egre= ss etc. Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an “SF can be trusted for= NSH purposes”  then it can lead to some simplifications, I beli= eve

 

I’m also ok leav= ing status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and proxy roles. Bu= t I do think that making the assumption like you make, that the issue of th= e SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simplify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the = NSH SPECIFC security aspects and this is on-going on the ml

 

Hope this makes my com= ments a bit clearer

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenn= o@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

"The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.”

&n= bsp;

It se= ems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH.  I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a = device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. 

 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security require= ments. What new specific NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard = against. Solving device trust issue, IP networks layer issues, transport is= sues, etc seems very much out of scope of this WG.    =

 

Thank= s,

 

&n= bsp;

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <repenno@= cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc= @ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

(reply #3, you may wan= t to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

 <= /span>

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" = <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

[Chair = hat off …]

 <= /span>

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

 <= /span>

Jim

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

--_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091EORSMSX114amrcor_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 09:04:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C451B2C38 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:04:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Zomi9TOVdeo for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:04:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99AA61B2C23 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 09:04:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=28870; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447434248; x=1448643848; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=yfvcTT2G9M3nYYGG7sWBHnUnBhfB9OwH7UN2k//JY4E=; b=Jt1Mq9bajv7AnGsKdaHPxqz5ijWadoWzT8YSQjLOszveieY7aImjw1wN +dGoS2bZBhdQ64i4RxhIhms2SJTryRkcOIdPBMCAcX4DIQA9tQIh+B963 yXcYRL4vgAJYrMvD16kba9A4K2GuEPvMauM752nLifzUXytLhfy03BWy0 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0AnAgCVF0ZW/5ldJa1bA4JuTVNvBr5BAQ2BZYYQAoE7OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQOGQY4BwoTAgEIEQMBAQEhBwcyFAkIAgQBEoguwSABAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYhlSEfoRoEwEVEYQXBYgdjisBjSaBW4dlijGEYoNxAR8BAUKCER2BVnKENoEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,288,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="208067118" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Nov 2015 17:04:07 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (xch-rcd-008.cisco.com [173.37.102.18]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tADH46ut018611 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:04:06 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:04:05 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:04:05 -0600 From: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" To: "Elzur, Uri" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVa0+xTCDtVR0Ky6Lo8W+YR+Z6YnmKA///PSICAAWeXAP//l8+AgAElYID//3x0gA== Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:04:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.32.97] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D26B57EF1DBCFrepennociscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 17:04:11 -0000 --_000_D26B57EF1DBCFrepennociscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perfect, thank you. From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Friday, November 13, 2015 at 8:54 AM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Reinaldo It seems like we are arguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about= the security aspect, it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of = clarifying the potential role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. = no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role vs abusi= ng SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the latter= is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egress etc.= Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an =93= SF can be trusted for NSH purposes=94 then it can lead to some simplificat= ions, I believe I=92m also ok leaving status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF a= nd proxy roles. But I do think that making the assumption like you make, th= at the issue of the SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simp= lify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the NSH SPECIFC secu= rity aspects and this is on-going on the ml Hope this makes my comments a bit clearer Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.=94 It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off =85] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things =96 add routes to VRFs that= should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that= force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. Wh= at I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I= need for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from a= n SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect t= o receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I=92d like to surfa= ce this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the d= iscussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF= (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention = may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be= there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a =93Classifier=94 is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Pro= xy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound=85 There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 --_000_D26B57EF1DBCFrepennociscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <4A936825FA6BDA43AE272E6AFBE85061@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Perfect, thank you.

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Friday, November 13, 2015 at = 8:54 AM
To: Reinaldo Penno <repenno@cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (jgu= ichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust y= our SF?

Reinaldo

 

It seems like we are a= rguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about the security aspect, = it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of clarifying the potenti= al role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role v= s abusing SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the= latter is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egre= ss etc. Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an =93SF can be trusted for NSH= purposes=94  then it can lead to some simplifications, I believe=

 

I=92m also ok leaving = status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and proxy roles. But I = do think that making the assumption like you make, that the issue of the SF= being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simplify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the = NSH SPECIFC security aspects and this is on-going on the ml

 

Hope this makes my com= ments a bit clearer

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

"The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.=94

&n= bsp;

It se= ems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH.  I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a = device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. 

 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security require= ments. What new specific NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard = against. Solving device trust issue, IP networks layer issues, transport is= sues, etc seems very much out of scope of this WG.    =

 

Thank= s,

 

&n= bsp;

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <repenno@= cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc= @ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

(reply #3, you may wan= t to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly

 

Thx

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

 <= /span>

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" = <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

[Chair = hat off =85]

 <= /span>

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things =96 add routes to VRFs = that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes = that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .= . What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

 <= /span>

Jim

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I=92d like to surface this issue and hope= fully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Map as= sisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a =93Classifier=94 is incorporated). If not, th= e SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound= =85

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

--_000_D26B57EF1DBCFrepennociscocom_-- From nobody Fri Nov 13 19:37:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECB51B380A for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:37:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xn9vRTmn-vKe for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3CAD1B3808 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 19:37:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6726; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447472270; x=1448681870; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=bqze39q3ocx0PZZAt/ZWo12JafcuRXZ54POdxO0330k=; b=IIl9vSz9dohRAZqHoGZQxxLo/pm5GjeQr/P/3JBpZAJWJd6tfJGUaTXn srigVra9P8i2Z6MQizCp4zTuvH6z494k4Bt0KrvhVBvZkBufHMkFg8DHG 1cn8Vk9Bhc32PO4Ob/QexvdstAEJnB60kIAvGwkg/9Ylg+CtyWTlkUWzx o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AsAgB/q0ZW/49dJa1egztTbwa+RQENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WQXCoVvAoE3OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQMBAQEBNzQLDAQCAQgRBAEBAR4JByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAgQBDQUIiB4IDcAcAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASGVIR+iTkFh?= =?us-ascii?q?UyQfAGIDYJhgjGBYodlijGIUwEfAQFChARyhDaBBwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,290,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="208200353" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Nov 2015 03:37:50 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-019.cisco.com (xch-aln-019.cisco.com [173.36.7.29]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAE3bnwG022078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 14 Nov 2015 03:37:50 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-ALN-019.cisco.com (173.36.7.29) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:37:49 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 13 Nov 2015 21:37:49 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: Linda Dunbar , Ian Smith , "Joel M. Halpern" , Thomas Narten Thread-Topic: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 Thread-Index: AQHRF2q/E0Hn9hQJP0yk2D/Yc/gPMZ6N8hGAgACUU4CACwRhgIAABVUA///drYCAAHWTAIAAsiKAgABTaGA= Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 03:37:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <563AB073.1030609@cisco.com> <563AB2E0.70005@joelhalpern.com> <563BF143.4090600@joelhalpern.com> <564533A4.3040104@joelhalpern.com>, <640f59e0a42b4f7b8bf98e90b8f47495@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> <1447393658614.36390@F5.com> <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657D820E6@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657D820E6@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.74.48] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Ron Parker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2015 03:37:53 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Linda Dunbar [mailto:linda.dunbar@huawei.com] > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 9:55 PM > To: Ian Smith; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Joel M. Halpern; Thomas > Narten > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker > Subject: RE: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >=20 > +1. >=20 > It brings back my comments during the WG adoption for this draft. The > security requirement for SFC can be very different under different > deployment scenarios. In a closed deployment, e.g. all SFs and SFFs are > directly attached and are placed in a enclosure of the provider CO, the > security threats are different from the SFs hosted in public cloud and > attached to SFFs via public internet. Therefore, security requirement ar= e > different. Yes, we can update the draft to discuss SFC deployments, threats possible a= nd associated security requirements. That way a security requirements in on= e deployment could be optional and in another deployment will be mandatory.= =20 -Tiru >=20 > Linda >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ian Smith > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:48 PM > To: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy); Joel M. Halpern; Thomas Narten > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >=20 > Integrity of both the data and the origin can (and perhaps should) be > provided using AH - an already standardized, and implemented mechanism > for preventing such threats at the network level. It seems far-fetched t= hat > we're entertaining the idea that up-stack protocols need to re-invent AH = to > satisfy data and origin integrity requirements. >=20 > If an implementer would like to use NSH on a non-IP network, it should be > enough to simply say that they must provide the appropriate analog for AH= , > if it exists and note the repercussions of using an NSH conveyance which > lacks data and origin integrity assurance. >=20 > If the argument is that IPSec is too to use for NSH, then that= is, > explicitly, a statement that data and origin integrity aren't important e= nough > to make the (arguably less than re-inventing AH) effort to provide the > security. >=20 > So, we could be hard line and put MUST's in that will be ignored, or we c= ould > be adventurous and shim into the NSH specification a lesser integrity > mechanism that will require defense and maintenance, or we could be > pragmatic and stipulate the use of existing technology to satisfy the con= cerns > being raised while noting that the lack of enthusiasm for those existing > technologies belies a pre-existing judgement about the validity of those > concerns in real usage. >=20 >=20 > ________________________________________ > From: sfc on behalf of Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy= ) > > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:59 PM > To: Joel M. Halpern; Thomas Narten > Cc: Ron Parker; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 >=20 > Authenticating SFC encapsulation is required to prevent various attacks l= ike > man-in-middle attacker modifying NSH, attacker sending spoofed NSH etc. > The reason the requirement is saying 'MUST' is to do our best to provide = BCP > for NSH security, if an operator turn-off security then it's a risk he is= willing to > take. >=20 > -Tiru >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 6:20 AM > > To: Thomas Narten > > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Ron Parker > > Subject: Re: [sfc] SFC Security Requirements comments - REQ 14 > > > > When it comes to per-packet authentication mechanisms, applied to > > every packet from every subscriber (which is what REQ14 asks us to > > implement) there is real cost in meeting such a requirement. > > > > Which is why I expressed concern about the requirement during the > > meeting in Yokohama. I do no think that particular requirement has WG > > consensus, and I think it is an over-reach. > > > > Including Authentication as an optional capability, well specified and > > well integrated, makes good sense to me. Making it mandatory to > > implement seems to much. And claiming it is mandatory to use would be = a > flat lie. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 11/12/15 7:30 PM, Thomas Narten wrote: > > > FWIW, we need to be a bit more precise in our wording on security > > > requirements. There are two important nuances: > > > > > > 1) Mandatory to use, meaning the protocol only works if the feature > > > is enabled and works. This sort of implies that you can't *disable* > > > its usage in the field. > > > > > > 2) Mandatory to implement, but optional to use. If something is > > > mandatory to implement, "compliant" implementations MUST support > the > > > feature. Whether the feature is used in practice is a separate > > > matter left to the operator. The rational behind "mandatory to > > > implement" is that an operator may not actually have the option to > > > enable security if a product chooses not to implement an "optional" > features. > > > > > > draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt is unclear at present > > > on which of the above is intended, but one can certainly read the > > > following: > > > > > > REQ14: Communications within the SFC Data Plane MUST be > > authenticated > > > in order to prevent the traffic to be modified by an attac= ker. > > > > > > as intending 1. > > > > > > For completeness, I should point that even if the final spec calls > > > for 2), vendors may choose not to follow the requirement (and then > > > be uncompliant), if they don't think it makes sense for their > > > customers (the original IPv6 mandate to include IPsec comes to mind, > > > for example). So if the WG chooses 2) - which is what I expect is > > > the most reasonable course, it should pay careful attention to > > > making the details something vendors think is useful, necessary and > > > workable in practice. I.e, the cost of mitigation matches the threat = level. > > > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Sun Nov 15 15:56:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD4221ACE64 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:56:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.187 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.187 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WptKideEjw5J for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE5C91ACE62 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 15:56:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4152; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447631807; x=1448841407; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=CJdNDZEU8fwMdxPOjayh3uveE3SSjZDUaexN+vlVNcU=; b=a6MkoYvPgbmxiGEFoqWVw2n67gTBPYp/7Ph1VC4wCAxpuBqy9vQ/6FJV gMPuECQkgrjS/6tIrvEC2TUxVMicIADByQcyOau3SLW8j5HuyKx5PnxZX Q+GnOQs1h24C1zoPJE+gS6tW4l2YkS4gu12DKBk2gSX0GPw1WdMXY7Lgj 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AaAgC5GklW/4YNJK1bA4M7U28GvkkBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFkFwqFbwKBJzgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEEAQEBNzQXBAIBCBEBAwEBAR4JByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAMGCAIEARIIiCYNuEsBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBItShHwmhBcFk?= =?us-ascii?q?meDYQGNH4FikhaEYoNxAR8BAUKCER2BVnKERIEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,299,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="208489093" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Nov 2015 23:56:46 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (xch-rcd-017.cisco.com [173.37.102.27]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAFNukJA027943 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:56:46 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 17:56:46 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 17:56:45 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVllFn7O1UA8UmUvJKuB0Kev56Y5m8AgATVnoA= Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:56:45 +0000 Message-ID: <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.19.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:56:49 -0000 +1 There is infrastructure and there is application. The promise of SFC is to = bring any vendor, third party or home grown SFs into the operator's network= . This requires either the SFs (applications) be robust, certified (how?) t= o work and maintain a secure environment or, simply make the SFFs (infrastr= ucture) robust and secure with control plane enforcing trust between SFF an= d SF. It seems fine for SFs to influence the forwarding decisions at SFF via meta= data (fully under SFF's control) but not itself make the forwarding decisio= ns - as is allowed via the manipulation of the service index by the SFs. If= SFFs are the ones allowed to make forwarding decisions, why allow SFs to d= ecrement the service index and on top of that check whether SF did the righ= t thing - completely redundant and unnecessary and even incorrect if you th= ink how it leads to a forwarding decision at SFF. IOW, ServicePath and Serv= iceIndex is owned by SFF and should be opaque to SFs. Making metadata available for SFs and SFFs, in the data plane, is NSH's val= ue. While consuming that metadata to offer enhanced service is SFs value. S= FFs on the other hand ensure traffic is forwarded along the right path to t= he right SFs. Whether the SF instance is part of SFC1 or 10 or 100 or, how = packets move from one SF to another must not be mixed with SF focus on deli= vering service if we are to keep the architecture clean and simple. As Uri points out, SFF clearly is infrastructure and the separation between= infrastructure and application is important to operators and needs to be m= aintained.=20 Surendra. -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 7:23 AM To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service functio= n will not modify the service path identification, even while they expect i= t to consume and produce metadata. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > Hi > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in=20 > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel=20 > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to=20 > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the=20 > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the=20 > map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is=20 > trusted for this operation. > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed=20 > the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake=20 > of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement=20 > or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not,=20 > the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the=20 > outbound... > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully=20 > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is=20 > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this=20 > for the NSH draft too. > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Sun Nov 15 16:03:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1029D1ACE7C for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:03:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r7Qbuh8XXHST for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53D831ACE7A for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 16:02:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=15233; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447632177; x=1448841777; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=HfAAkxUuKtmRj84/uAcK/4VUZOMrMT7EOczWbdbJl8A=; b=CqVDMvvlGKC+EVekQC9sEzVpdWgCUlopMTjFNO5GHym7gPpdJcLC25ut NBUis5iegx2K5UXG0GD2eVlvpulTvwB9xttQuy/NqdwUdCSMScSa1AS2v rZnU5ddRsD6e+zS0N7JK00VtaMzy3Es1BYnQ1TDk6tYZAMu9f83Iv7Pnd E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AZAgDSG0lW/4cNJK1bA4JuTVNvBr5JA?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2BZIYQAoEnOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQnBj8KEwIBCBEDAQEBKAcyFAkIAgQ?= =?us-ascii?q?BEgiIJrhYAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGItShGgTARURhBcFiB2KSoNhA?= =?us-ascii?q?Y0fgWKSFoRig3EBHwEBQoQEcoREgQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,299,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="44985909" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 00:02:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (xch-rcd-009.cisco.com [173.37.102.19]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAG02tCE030014 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 16 Nov 2015 00:02:55 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:02:55 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 18:02:55 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVllFn7O1UA8UmUvJKuB0Kev56Y8jcAgATWgrA= Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 00:02:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.19.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d60f5b0d3ab046b89287c9576fa2a428XCHRCD020ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 00:03:02 -0000 --_000_d60f5b0d3ab046b89287c9576fa2a428XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is akin to allowing any application in the data center make forwarding= decisions that the switches and routers then use to forward packets on! The switch/router/fabric is better served with forwarding packets while the= applications do their stuff: Infrastructure vs. application. Don't mix the= m. Surendra. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Guichard (jguichar= ) Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:05 AM To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_d60f5b0d3ab046b89287c9576fa2a428XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This is akin to allowing any application in the dat= a center make forwarding decisions that the switches and routers then use t= o forward packets on!

 

The switch/router/fabric is better served with forw= arding packets while the applications do their stuff: Infrastructure vs. ap= plication. Don’t mix them.

 

Surendra.

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Jim Guichard (jguichar)
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:05 AM
To: Elzur, Uri <uri.elzur@intel.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

[Chair = hat off …]

&n= bsp;

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

&n= bsp;

Jim

&n= bsp;

From: sfc <sfc= -bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ie= tf.org" <sfc@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto= :sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

--_000_d60f5b0d3ab046b89287c9576fa2a428XCHRCD020ciscocom_-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 20:16:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0B61B2BA6 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:16:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5JyRRQ30ydmX for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:16:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CF201B2BA4 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 20:16:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=25426; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447647394; x=1448856994; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=nSAMr+yrd21gFVCHRYj5GS71JArj2kXjV+N+j7SjU2s=; b=kPXIJ7T8a/8uoqgCKWf75GCcuKV5httcEuCC2DLk78o3NG59c+CvhCvS kAxRIVDV/wDHhOTyKipVnisNdlQmAC9glr+++NcgnCfNlgqFfOUGKOcuo jtEJ3oZlfrM2p3fZkJiv2+MOqmKlTxPU/flIPlLjf38yK5euFNpyzTWoQ 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AhAgBqV0lW/5JdJa1UBwOCbk1Tbwa+S?= =?us-ascii?q?QENgWQhhW8CgSw4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBBC1cAgEIEQEDAQEhBwcyFAMGCAI?= =?us-ascii?q?EARIIiCYNuHkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBItShDA4FAwJEYQXBYgdj?= =?us-ascii?q?isBhRyCcYUSgWKSFoRig3EBHwEBQoQEcoREgQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,300,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="208689063" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 04:16:32 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (xch-rcd-018.cisco.com [173.37.102.28]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAG4GWra015865 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 16 Nov 2015 04:16:32 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:16:31 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:16:31 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Elzur, Uri" , Ron Parker , Dave Dolson , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVllFn7O1UA8UmUvJKuB0Kev56YYuaAgAB2+wCAAPtVgIAEN32g Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 04:16:31 +0000 Message-ID: <318c1855e1d4429cbe85bb504d592e8f@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF8B@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF8B@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.19.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_318c1855e1d4429cbe85bb504d592e8fXCHRCD020ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 04:16:39 -0000 --_000_318c1855e1d4429cbe85bb504d592e8fXCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:38 PM To: Ron Parker ; Dave Dolson ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Few comments 1) The NSH draft right now, is careful stating that an SF can ONLY dec= rement the SI and technically can't change the SPI and w/o a classifier can= 't change metadata ("Context Header") either. It is not easy/possible from = an SFF point of view to tell which SF comprises a Classifier too or not. wi= thout Control Plane indication the SFF can't tell if an SF is to be trusted= or not. Now, this has implications. SK> The normative requirement that SF decrement SI is incorrect. It mixes f= orwarding decision with service delivery! You are correct in observing cont= rol plane involvement is required to put the environment/deployment in orde= r and identifying the roles of the components. 2) A Trusted SF - may be / should be privy to the whole external pack= et, as it may need it for further processing or simplification (e.g. in a m= ulti tenancy scenario be able to associate dup IP addresses with the right= tenant for employing diff policy/processing/SPI). As the SF is trusted, no= state in the SFF is required on the Tx, to ensure no abuse of the NSH (SI = or SPI). State may still be required somewhere, for the case an internal fi= eld has changed e.g. due to NAT which may change the classification results= and hence the forwarding/processing decision. SK> Clear separation of service/application vs. infrastructure is absolutel= y essential. This does not prevent co-location of architecture components. = Having SFs make forwarding decisions while SFFs enforcing those decisions m= uddles the water, whether SF is trusted or not. In multi-tenancy SF is bett= er served with the use of metadata to identify tenant than the SPI itself a= nd treat SPI+SI as opaque data. 3) "Local circuit" concept (i.e. between the SFF and the SF) - becomes= optional. One may prefer Eth+NSH locally as an example, and use some form = of tunneling outside on the "transport", but one may also simply extend the= "tunnel" to the SF too. This promotes also, the question of the vTEP for t= he external "transport". The local vSwitch (integrated w the SFF or not) sh= ould have that responsibility. This is a bit out of scope for the SFC WG, t= hough. 4) Legacy and Proxy - the SFF is to be programmed as to what encapsul= ation to use on the "local circuit" . A Proxy is a trusted entity and there= fore is no different from a trusted SF as above. A legacy SF is not partici= pating in NSH processing and so it is may be irrelevant if it is to trusted= or not.. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 6:38 AM To: Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Dave, I agree with your analysis. What we've been thinking of as "legacy SF" (i= .e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted SF (i= .e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH). Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM To: Elzur, Uri >; sfc@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Uri, I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like= a "legacy SF" device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH hea= ders. Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move = packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the = SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. In my opinion, the issues of so-called "legacy" SFC are therefore elevated = in importance. We should be discussing "legacy and untrusted SF". E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 could be entitled, "SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF" -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_318c1855e1d4429cbe85bb504d592e8fXCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:38 PM
To: Ron Parker <Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com>; Dave Dolson = <ddolson@sandvine.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Few comments

 

1)&n= bsp;     The NSH draft = right now, is careful stating that an SF can ONLY decrement the SI and tech= nically can’t change the SPI and w/o a classifier can’t change = metadata (“Context Header”) either. It is not easy/possible from an SFF point of view to tell which SF comprises a Class= ifier too or not. without Control Plane indication the SFF can’t tell= if an SF is to be trusted or not. Now, this has implications.

SK> The normative requirement that SF decrement S= I is incorrect. It mixes forwarding decision with service delivery! = You are correct in observing control plane involvement is required to put t= he environment/deployment in order and identifying the roles of the components.

 

2)&n= bsp;     A Trusted SF &= #8211; may be / should be  privy to the whole external packet, as it m= ay need it for further processing or simplification (e.g. in a multi tenanc= y scenario be able to associate dup  IP addresses with the right tenant for employing diff policy/processing/SPI). As the SF= is trusted, no state in the SFF is required on the Tx, to ensure no abuse = of the NSH (SI or SPI). State may still be required somewhere, for the case= an internal field has changed e.g. due to NAT which may change the classification results and hence the forwa= rding/processing decision.

SK> Clear separation of service/application vs. i= nfrastructure is absolutely essential. This does not prevent co-location of= architecture components. Having SFs make forwarding decisions while SFFs e= nforcing those decisions muddles the water, whether SF is trusted or not. In multi-tenancy SF is better served = with the use of metadata to identify tenant than the SPI itself and treat S= PI+SI as opaque data.

 

3)&n= bsp;     “Local c= ircuit” concept (i.e. between the SFF and the SF) – becomes opt= ional. One may prefer Eth+NSH locally as an example, and use some form = of tunneling outside on the “transport”, but one may also simply extend the “tunnel” to the SF too. This promotes also, = the question of the vTEP for the external “transport”. The loca= l vSwitch (integrated w the SFF or not) should have that responsibility. Th= is is a bit out of scope for the SFC WG, though.

4)&n= bsp;     Legacy and Pro= xy -  the SFF is to be programmed as to what encapsulation to use on t= he “local circuit” . A Proxy is a trusted entity and therefore = is no different from a trusted SF as above. A legacy SF is not participating in NSH processing and so it is may be irrelevant i= f it is to trusted or not..

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 6:38 AM
To: Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@iet= f.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Dave,

 

I agree with your anal= ysis.   What we’ve been thinking of as “legacy SFR= 21; (i.e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted= SF (i.e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH).

 

   Ron<= /o:p>

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM
To: Elzur, Uri <uri.elzur@= intel.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Uri,=

 

I think the consequenc= es of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like a “legacy SF= 221; device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH headers.=

Trusting the SF with N= SH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move packets to any chain, = perhaps crossing tenant boundaries.

 

So therefore, SFs usin= g NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the SF-Proxy approach if o= perators have untrusted SFs.

 

In my opinion, the iss= ues of so-called “legacy” SFC are therefore elevated in importa= nce. We should be discussing “legacy and untrusted SF”.

E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06

could be entitled, = 220;SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF”

 

-Dave

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_318c1855e1d4429cbe85bb504d592e8fXCHRCD020ciscocom_-- From nobody Sun Nov 15 21:59:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8C81B2DA2 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:59:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c7s6tEm9kOVQ for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:59:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 240321B2DA5 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 21:59:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5610; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447653590; x=1448863190; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=bWdYerwiqeHiczQcHaj4AY2dkH/4wbgbGMgOhUF+m4k=; b=g1jE5Y1+3VqGjLIuBoFz6Wbt0rExpVk9SwcXGVMWmfJQi02O2nPL8+SL 4IfhkfZv0sIc0C5RbchJ55rSJWickZBi744+4yW4m2g4VTT8Kw2ncGrM9 VQUTUHzuiplXyKHvIk/9NFzPHC/TC2c9XLhGYjexggKHJJClyzZwTC0g8 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AiAgBVb0lW/5pdJa1bA4M7U28GvkkBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFkFwqFbwKBLDgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEEAQEBNzQXBAIBCBEBAwEBAR4JByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAMGCAIEARIIiCYNuRMBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIZUhH6EfCaEF?= =?us-ascii?q?wWWSAGNH4FikhaEYoNxAR8BAUKCER2BVnKERIEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,300,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="208160244" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Nov 2015 05:59:49 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (xch-rcd-017.cisco.com [173.37.102.27]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAG5xncn021873 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 16 Nov 2015 05:59:49 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com (173.37.102.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:59:48 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) by XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com ([173.37.102.27]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 23:59:48 -0600 From: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHV4U41ySf1koI0WbjN6a2vAyip6eLGmA///5xKA= Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 05:59:48 +0000 Message-ID: <377146c7095e46adaf77ac621a31eae4@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.65.59.125] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 05:59:52 -0000 What kind of new requirements is SF not modifying service index bringing in= to NSH security ? If SF is trusted and it is not supposed to modify the service index but bec= ause of a bug or bad configuration it modifies the SFP then it can be detec= ted by SFF and rectified. But if an SF is untrusted (like an host installin= g an malicious java script) then it can do lots of damage to the network an= d may not always be possible to detect an infected SF. If SF not modifying service index needs to be solved at the protocol level = then it brings in new NSH security requirements like=20 - SF can decrypt the service path header but it cannot update and re-encryp= t the Service Path Header. We probably have to discuss the role of SF if it allowed to decrypt the ser= vice path header, decrypt NSH metadata, modify NSH metadata, add NSH metada= ta etc. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar > (smkumar) > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 5:27 AM > To: Joel M. Halpern; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? >=20 > +1 >=20 > There is infrastructure and there is application. The promise of SFC is t= o bring > any vendor, third party or home grown SFs into the operator's network. Th= is > requires either the SFs (applications) be robust, certified (how?) to wor= k and > maintain a secure environment or, simply make the SFFs (infrastructure) > robust and secure with control plane enforcing trust between SFF and SF. >=20 > It seems fine for SFs to influence the forwarding decisions at SFF via > metadata (fully under SFF's control) but not itself make the forwarding > decisions - as is allowed via the manipulation of the service index by th= e SFs. > If SFFs are the ones allowed to make forwarding decisions, why allow SFs = to > decrement the service index and on top of that check whether SF did the > right thing - completely redundant and unnecessary and even incorrect if = you > think how it leads to a forwarding decision at SFF. IOW, ServicePath and > ServiceIndex is owned by SFF and should be opaque to SFs. >=20 > Making metadata available for SFs and SFFs, in the data plane, is NSH's v= alue. > While consuming that metadata to offer enhanced service is SFs value. SFF= s > on the other hand ensure traffic is forwarded along the right path to the= right > SFs. Whether the SF instance is part of SFC1 or 10 or 100 or, how packets > move from one SF to another must not be mixed with SF focus on delivering > service if we are to keep the architecture clean and simple. >=20 > As Uri points out, SFF clearly is infrastructure and the separation betwe= en > infrastructure and application is important to operators and needs to be > maintained. >=20 > Surendra. >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 7:23 AM > To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? >=20 > I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. > For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service > function will not modify the service path identification, even while they > expect it to consume and produce metadata. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > > Hi > > > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in > > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel > > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > > > Thx > > > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > > > Hi > > > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to > > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the > > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the > > map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is > > trusted for this operation. > > > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed > > the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake > > of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement > > or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, > > the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the > > outbound... > > > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully > > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is > > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this > > for the NSH draft too. > > > > Thx > > > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Sun Nov 15 22:26:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8617C1B2DE2 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:26:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hJTjprFUMkv8 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:26:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B77DA1B2DDB for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 22:26:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=37596; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447655174; x=1448864774; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=3dJ71+reyxMnUgAyXolyFExfDsSPm5ftIkn+Wnq+Mr0=; b=GGtcUgXp1kE0o4vBjwRfzAjuWCVeJ2ivy7oR8S52Y9YwbGCmLg4VAyKX zBCUR/rS3LWkrO0R/o+PoW4PjeIhZ1rjL/nf7Pbfa9ejYdQhPcIFVL2zE 6R715dh0WwkSnS+USo5lLcgGcwO2q6D4eRjdFq5yi7R1xo2XFBhaOX9xZ 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AhAgCZdklW/4kNJK1bA4JuTVNvBr5JA?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2BZIYQAoEsOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQQOGQY4BwoTAgEIEQECAQEBIQEGBzI?= =?us-ascii?q?UAwYIAgQBEgiIJrklAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGItShGgTARURhBcFi?= =?us-ascii?q?B2KSoNhAY0fgWKHZYoxhGKDcQEfAQFCghEdgVZyhESBBwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,301,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="50647612" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 06:26:12 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (xch-aln-009.cisco.com [173.36.7.19]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAG6QC5u015085 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:26:12 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 00:26:12 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 00:26:11 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Elzur, Uri" , "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVllFn7O1UA8UmUvJKuB0Kev56Y8jcAgAABkICAAOF6AIAAHe8AgACfQICAA37B8A== Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:26:11 +0000 Message-ID: <839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.100.159] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553XCHRCD020ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 06:26:20 -0000 --_000_839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating some things from previous= responses.] Keep the separation * between packet forwarding and service delivery * between application and infrastructure * between metadata and forwarding data * etc. Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables SFs to focus on service d= elivery and not service chaining and forwarding complexity, that goes into = the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery a= nd not for packet forwarding, that belongs in SFF. Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF into the service plane wi= thout having to concern themselves about how that affects packet forwarding= in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off do= ing the SFF's job. If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operators' view should be obvi= ous. NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed off the normative langu= age in this regard and is misguided in specifying, for instance, the decrem= ent of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out = the window. Surendra. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) ; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <= jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Reinaldo It seems like we are arguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about= the security aspect, it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of = clarifying the potential role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. = no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role vs abusi= ng SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the latter= is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egress etc.= Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an "SF= can be trusted for NSH purposes" then it can lead to some simplifications= , I believe SK> I'm also ok leaving status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and= proxy roles. But I do think that making the assumption like you make, that= the issue of the SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simpli= fy our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the NSH SPECIFC securi= ty aspects and this is on-going on the ml Hope this makes my comments a bit clearer Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF." It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

[Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating s= ome things from previous responses.]

 

Keep the separation

·        between packet forwarding and service deliv= ery

·        between application and infrastructure=

·        between metadata and forwarding data

·        etc.

 

Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables S= Fs to focus on service delivery and not service chaining and forwarding com= plexity, that goes into the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery and not for packet forwa= rding, that belongs in SFF.

 

Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF i= nto the service plane without having to concern themselves about how that a= ffects packet forwarding in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off doing the SFF’s job.<= o:p>

 

If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operat= ors’ view should be obvious.

 

NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed= off the normative language in this regard and is misguided in specifying, = for instance, the decrement of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out the window.

 

Surendra.

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM
To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard= (jguichar) <jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Reinaldo

 

It seems like we are a= rguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about the security aspect, = it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of clarifying the potenti= al role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role v= s abusing SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the= latter is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egre= ss etc. Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an “SF can be trusted for= NSH purposes”  then it can lead to some simplifications, I beli= eve

SK>

 

I’m also ok leav= ing status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and proxy roles. Bu= t I do think that making the assumption like you make, that the issue of th= e SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simplify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the = NSH SPECIFC security aspects and this is on-going on the ml

 

Hope this makes my com= ments a bit clearer

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

"The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.”

&n= bsp;

It se= ems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH.  I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a = device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. 

 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security require= ments. What new specific NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard = against. Solving device trust issue, IP networks layer issues, transport is= sues, etc seems very much out of scope of this WG.    =

 

Thank= s,

 

&n= bsp;

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com&g= t;
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <r= epenno@cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (j= guichar)" <jguichar@ci= sco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

(reply #3, you may wan= t to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

 <= /span>

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Jim Guichard (jguichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

[Chair = hat off …]

 <= /span>

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

 <= /span>

Jim

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Elzur, Uri" <uri= .elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

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dHJlIHN5c3TDqG1lLiBEYW5zIGNldHRlIGh5cG90aMOoc2UsIHZvdXMgbuKAmcOqdGVzIHBhcyBh dXRvcmlzw6kgw6AgdXRpbGlzZXIsIGNvcGllciBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIGV0L291IGVuIGRpdnVsZ3Vl ciBsZSBjb250ZW51IMOgIHVuIHRpZXJzLiBUb3V0IG1lc3NhZ2Ugw6lsZWN0cm9uaXF1ZSBlc3Qg c3VzY2VwdGlibGUgZCdhbHTDqXJhdGlvbi4gUW9zbW9zIGV0IHNlcyBmaWxpYWxlcyBkw6ljbGlu ZW50IHRvdXRlIHJlc3BvbnNhYmlsaXTDqSBhdSB0aXRyZSBkZSBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIHMnaWwgYSDD qXTDqSBhbHTDqXLDqSwgZMOpZm9ybcOpIG91IGZhbHNpZmnDqS4NCg== From nobody Mon Nov 16 08:55:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F4A1A6F7A for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 08:55:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, 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XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 10:54:57 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVllFn7O1UA8UmUvJKuB0Kev56Y5m8AgATVnoCAANZdAP//pXeQ Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:54:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <377146c7095e46adaf77ac621a31eae4@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <377146c7095e46adaf77ac621a31eae4@XCH-RCD-017.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.87.69] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 16:55:03 -0000 You are absolutely correct, there could be bugs in SF that affect any part = of NSH and you can't blindly forward on data that comes back from SFs. Like= wise, there could be bugs in SFFs too but SFFs being part of infra usually = go through much stringent scrutiny and assessment. To make the architecture robust, SFFs should not assume the integrity of th= e SPI+SI coming back from SFs and forward on that, let alone requiring SFs = to modify the forwarding-data in NSH. Surendra. -----Original Message----- From: Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy)=20 Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:00 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Joel M. Halpern ; Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? What kind of new requirements is SF not modifying service index bringing in= to NSH security ? If SF is trusted and it is not supposed to modify the service index but bec= ause of a bug or bad configuration it modifies the SFP then it can be detec= ted by SFF and rectified. But if an SF is untrusted (like an host installin= g an malicious java script) then it can do lots of damage to the network an= d may not always be possible to detect an infected SF. If SF not modifying service index needs to be solved at the protocol level = then it brings in new NSH security requirements like - SF can decrypt the service path header but it cannot update and re-encryp= t the Service Path Header. We probably have to discuss the role of SF if it allowed to decrypt the ser= vice path header, decrypt NSH metadata, modify NSH metadata, add NSH metada= ta etc. -Tiru > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar > (smkumar) > Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 5:27 AM > To: Joel M. Halpern; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? >=20 > +1 >=20 > There is infrastructure and there is application. The promise of SFC=20 > is to bring any vendor, third party or home grown SFs into the=20 > operator's network. This requires either the SFs (applications) be=20 > robust, certified (how?) to work and maintain a secure environment or,=20 > simply make the SFFs (infrastructure) robust and secure with control plan= e enforcing trust between SFF and SF. >=20 > It seems fine for SFs to influence the forwarding decisions at SFF via=20 > metadata (fully under SFF's control) but not itself make the=20 > forwarding decisions - as is allowed via the manipulation of the service = index by the SFs. > If SFFs are the ones allowed to make forwarding decisions, why allow=20 > SFs to decrement the service index and on top of that check whether SF=20 > did the right thing - completely redundant and unnecessary and even=20 > incorrect if you think how it leads to a forwarding decision at SFF.=20 > IOW, ServicePath and ServiceIndex is owned by SFF and should be opaque to= SFs. >=20 > Making metadata available for SFs and SFFs, in the data plane, is NSH's v= alue. > While consuming that metadata to offer enhanced service is SFs value.=20 > SFFs on the other hand ensure traffic is forwarded along the right=20 > path to the right SFs. Whether the SF instance is part of SFC1 or 10=20 > or 100 or, how packets move from one SF to another must not be mixed=20 > with SF focus on delivering service if we are to keep the architecture cl= ean and simple. >=20 > As Uri points out, SFF clearly is infrastructure and the separation=20 > between infrastructure and application is important to operators and=20 > needs to be maintained. >=20 > Surendra. >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 7:23 AM > To: Elzur, Uri ; sfc@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? >=20 > I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. > For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service=20 > function will not modify the service path identification, even while=20 > they expect it to consume and produce metadata. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > > Hi > > > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in=20 > > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel=20 > > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > > > Thx > > > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > > > Hi > > > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to=20 > > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the=20 > > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the=20 > > map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is=20 > > trusted for this operation. > > > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF=20 > > changed the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for=20 > > the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI=20 > > decrement or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is=20 > > incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state=20 > > and VERIFY it on the outbound... > > > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully=20 > > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is=20 > > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this=20 > > for the NSH draft too. > > > > Thx > > > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Mon Nov 16 09:05:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0FBE1A6FC0 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:05:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g-s9LitbnDoz for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEB331A6FAC for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 09:05:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9730; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447693538; x=1448903138; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=B4MGkyUHuCNF9wx3JfeNRDGQKTBM8c+GDXO9MITMFyA=; b=l8WBGaWU4T0M/aUxiAkNFiUGtY8x47HQU6FGlIqDeUKE4w8thVXsOicY W3OfZVb0aEB2flspaX2jSuA7SqXgt2jcgtHTId7gcaVh2my5OtZUFGq4E PWOAkdwJ8SwMg1s12wcdzQSUp+Lx8fFWuNj5rtKWs8oeR+ugE4RUWX9oA U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AfAgBbC0pW/5FdJa1aA4M7U28GgmG7e?= =?us-ascii?q?QENgWQXCoVvAhyBJzgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEEAQEBCRcRIBoXBAIBBgIRAQM?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQECAiMDAgICJQsUAQIGCAIEARIIE4gTDY0FnTWQEAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBARQEgQGKUYQpSAsmglOBRAWSZ4NhAYYmhnmBYoRAjVaEYoNxAR8BAUK?= =?us-ascii?q?CER2BVnKERIEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,303,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="50809243" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 17:05:37 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (xch-rcd-020.cisco.com [173.37.102.30]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAGH5bjk001215 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:05:37 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:05:37 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 11:05:37 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: Nicolas BOUTHORS , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Elzur, Uri" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVllFn7O1UA8UmUvJKuB0Kev56Y5m8AgATVnoCAAWT8AP//xC/Q Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2015 17:05:37 +0000 Message-ID: <5147badbd3614782b4d858864ada4c80@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <76B41B8FACE1514795D30EC137FF391D8B3C89@CAROUBIER.jungle.qosmos.com> In-Reply-To: <76B41B8FACE1514795D30EC137FF391D8B3C89@CAROUBIER.jungle.qosmos.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.87.69] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? 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ZSBldCB0b3V0ZXMgc2VzIHBpw6hjZXMgam9pbnRlcyAoY2ktYXByw6hzIGxlICJtZXNzYWdlIilz b250IGNvbmZpZGVudGllbHMgZXQgw6l0YWJsaXMgw6AgbCdpbnRlbnRpb24gZXhjbHVzaXZlIGRl IHNlcyBkZXN0aW5hdGFpcmVzLiBTaSB2b3VzIGF2ZXogcmXDp3UgY2UgbWVzc2FnZSBwYXIgZXJy ZXVyLCBtZXJjaSBk4oCZZW4gaW5mb3JtZXIgaW1tw6lkaWF0ZW1lbnQgc29uIMOpbWV0dGV1ciBw YXIgY291cnJpZXIgw6lsZWN0cm9uaXF1ZSBldCBk4oCZZWZmYWNlciBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIGRlIHZv dHJlIHN5c3TDqG1lLiBEYW5zIGNldHRlIGh5cG90aMOoc2UsIHZvdXMgbuKAmcOqdGVzIHBhcyBh dXRvcmlzw6kgw6AgdXRpbGlzZXIsIGNvcGllciBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIGV0L291IGVuIGRpdnVsZ3Vl ciBsZSBjb250ZW51IMOgIHVuIHRpZXJzLiBUb3V0IG1lc3NhZ2Ugw6lsZWN0cm9uaXF1ZSBlc3Qg c3VzY2VwdGlibGUgZCdhbHTDqXJhdGlvbi4gUW9zbW9zIGV0IHNlcyBmaWxpYWxlcyBkw6ljbGlu ZW50IHRvdXRlIHJlc3BvbnNhYmlsaXTDqSBhdSB0aXRyZSBkZSBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIHMnaWwgYSDD qXTDqSBhbHTDqXLDqSwgZMOpZm9ybcOpIG91IGZhbHNpZmnDqS4NCg== From nobody Mon Nov 16 19:53:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F521ACE4C for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:53:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uoq2p_BSzJCD for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140AB1ACE4E for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmga003.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.27]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 19:53:37 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,305,1444719600"; d="scan'208,217";a="687173208" Received: from orsmsx110.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.8]) by orsmga003.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 19:53:38 -0800 Received: from orsmsx112.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.12.72]) by ORSMSX110.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.3.225]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:53:37 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRIAFNDLBS8cf45U6LskOLWf1Je56fN51A Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 03:53:37 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B899585891393FE@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.138] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B899585891393FEORSMSX112amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 03:53:41 -0000 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B899585891393FEORSMSX112amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sharing some thoughts in response: Clearly some SFs must be trusted e.g. NAT. NAT is an example of an SF that= is part of the infrastructure. At the same time some SFs may only be trust= ed to do some things but not everything, but clearly as they have been put= on a Service Chain, should get access to some network processing=1B$B!D= =1B(B this is part of moving from physical to virtual SFs IOW, Part of the SFC functionality/intention and architectural direction is= about letting SFs influence the forwarding. To be clear, it seems like, In= fluence =1B$B!b=1B(B direct or control the forwarding. The question is what is the right balance. To me SFs =1B$B!b=1B(B applicat= ions, as mentioned above. At the same time, we may want to limit the potent= ial damage a rogue/buggy SF may have on neighbors SPI etc. This is the task= of the SFC Security draft to point out the critical risks and then we see= what is the best course of action to address them. Altenatively we can ag= ree to create two classes of SF (I=1B$B!G=1B(Bm not a fan=1B$B!D=1B(B) to b= e indicated by the Control Plane (whch can be done today too!) As to the SI vs SPI: if the criteria prevent damage to thy neighboring chai= n, SI decrement is not a issue. And it is an indication of the SF being alv= e and doing some action which may be better option that he SFF blindly decr= ementing SI Thx Uri (=1B$B!H=1B(BOo-Ree=1B$B!I=1B(B) C: 949-378-7568 -----Original Message----- From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 3:57 PM To: Joel M. Halpern; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? +1 There is infrastructure and there is application. The promise of SFC is to = bring any vendor, third party or home grown SFs into the operator's network= . This requires either the SFs (applications) be robust, certified (how?) t= o work and maintain a secure environment or, simply make the SFFs (infrastr= ucture) robust and secure with control plane enforcing trust between SFF an= d SF. It seems fine for SFs to influence the forwarding decisions at SFF via meta= data (fully under SFF's control) but not itself make the forwarding decisio= ns - as is allowed via the manipulation of the service index by the SFs. If= SFFs are the ones allowed to make forwarding decisions, why allow SFs to d= ecrement the service index and on top of that check whether SF did the righ= t thing - completely redundant and unnecessary and even incorrect if you th= ink how it leads to a forwarding decision at SFF. IOW, ServicePath and Serv= iceIndex is owned by SFF and should be opaque to SFs. Making metadata available for SFs and SFFs, in the data plane, is NSH's val= ue. While consuming that metadata to offer enhanced service is SFs value. S= FFs on the other hand ensure traffic is forwarded along the right path to t= he right SFs. Whether the SF instance is part of SFC1 or 10 or 100 or, how = packets move from one SF to another must not be mixed with SF focus on deli= vering service if we are to keep the architecture clean and simple. As Uri points out, SFF clearly is infrastructure and the separation between= infrastructure and application is important to operators and needs to be m= aintained. Surendra. -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halpern Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 7:23 AM To: Elzur, Uri >; sfc@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? I have heard from concern from customers in this regard. For example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service functio= n will not modify the service path identification, even while they expect i= t to consume and produce metadata. Yours, Joel On 11/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote: > Hi > > Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in > agreement that the SF should be trusted ? > > For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel > encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri > *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM > *To:* sfc@ietf.org > *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF? > > Hi > > in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to > surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. > In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the > potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. > Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the > map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is > trusted for this operation. > > This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed > the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake > of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement > or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, > the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the > outbound... > > There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully > trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is > part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this > for the NSH draft too. > > Thx > > Uri ("Oo-Ree") > > C: 949-378-7568 > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B899585891393FEORSMSX112amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= a name=3D"_MailEndCompose">
Shar= ing some thoughts in response:
&nbs= p;
Clea= rly some SFs must be trusted e.g. NAT. NAT  is an example of an SF tha= t is part of the infrastructure. At the same time some SFs may only be trus= ted to do some things but not  everything, but clearly as they have been put on a Service Chain, should get  acce= ss to some network processing=1B$B!D=1B(B this is part of moving from physi= cal to virtual SFs
&nbs= p;
IOW,= Part of the SFC functionality/intention and architectural direction is abo= ut letting SFs influence the forwarding. To be clear, it seems like, Influe= nce =1B$B!b=1B(B direct or control the forwarding.
The = question is what is the right balance. To me SFs =1B$B!b=1B(B  applica= tions, as mentioned above. At the same time, we may want to limit the poten= tial damage a rogue/buggy SF may have on neighbors SPI etc. This is the task of the SFC Security  draft to point out the crit= ical risks and then we see what is the best course of action to address the= m.  Altenatively we can agree to create two classes of SF (I=1B$B!G=1B= (Bm not a fan=1B$B!D=1B(B) to be indicated by the Control Plane (whch can be done today too!)
&nbs= p;
As t= o the SI vs SPI: if the criteria prevent damage to thy neighboring chain, S= I decrement is not a issue. And it is an indication of the SF being alve an= d doing some action which may be better option that he SFF blindly decrementing SI
&nbs= p;
&nbs= p;
Thx<= /span>
Uri = (=1B$B!H=1B(BOo-Ree=1B$B!I=1B(B)
C: 9= 49-378-7568
&nbs= p;
----= -Original Message-----
From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto= :smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 3:57 PM
To: Joel M. Halpern; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?
&nbs= p;
+= ;1
&nbs= p;
Ther= e is infrastructure and there is application. The promise of SFC is to brin= g any vendor, third party or home grown SFs into the operator's network. Th= is requires either the SFs (applications) be robust, certified (how?) to work and maintain a secure environment or, s= imply make the SFFs (infrastructure) robust and secure with control plane e= nforcing trust between SFF and SF.
&nbs= p;
It s= eems fine for SFs to influence the forwarding decisions at SFF via metadata= (fully under SFF's control) but not itself make the forwarding decisions -= as is allowed via the manipulation of the service index by the SFs. If SFFs are the ones allowed to make forwardi= ng decisions, why allow SFs to decrement the service index and on top of th= at check whether SF did the right thing - completely redundant and unnecess= ary and even incorrect if you think how it leads to a forwarding decision at SFF. IOW, ServicePath and ServiceI= ndex is owned by SFF and should be opaque to SFs.
&nbs= p;
Maki= ng metadata available for SFs and SFFs, in the data plane, is NSH's value. = While consuming that metadata to offer enhanced service is SFs value. SFFs = on the other hand ensure traffic is forwarded along the right path to the right SFs. Whether the SF instance is part of S= FC1 or 10 or 100 or, how packets move from one SF to another must not be mi= xed with SF focus on delivering service if we are to keep the architecture = clean and simple.
&nbs= p;
As U= ri points out, SFF clearly is infrastructure and the separation between inf= rastructure and application is important to operators and needs to be maint= ained.
&nbs= p;
Sure= ndra.
&nbs= p;
&nbs= p;
----= -Original Message-----
Sent= : Thursday, November 12, 2015 7:23 AM
To: = Elzur, Uri <uri.elzur@intel.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subj= ect: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?
&nbs= p;
I ha= ve heard from concern from customers in this regard.
For = example, they have asked whether we can ensure that the service function wi= ll not modify the service path identification, even while they expect it to= consume and produce metadata.
&nbs= p;
Your= s,
Joel=
&nbs= p;
On 1= 1/12/15 1:42 AM, Elzur, Uri wrote:
>= Hi
>=
>= Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in =
>= agreement that the SF should be trusted ?
>=
>= For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel
>= encapsulations (if present) as well as NSH header itself
>=
>= Thx
>=
>= Uri ("Oo-Ree")
>=
>= C: 949-378-7568
>=
>= *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ie= tf.org] *On Behalf Of *Elzur, Uri
>= *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
>= *To:* sfc@ietf.org
>= *Subject:* [sfc] will you trust your SF?
>=
>= Hi
>=
>= in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to
>= surface this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved.
>= In the discussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the
>= potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple.
>= Control Plane intervention may be needed in such case to update the
>= map (as the new 5 tuple may not be there) and to imply the SF is
>= trusted for this operation.
>=
>= This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed
>= the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake
>= of the 5 tuple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement
>= or even SPI change in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If n= ot,
>= the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the =
>= outbound...
>=
>= There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully
>= trusted and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is
>= part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this
>= for the NSH draft too.
>=
>= Thx
>=
>= Uri ("Oo-Ree")
>=
>= C: 949-378-7568
>=
>=
>=
>= _______________________________________________
>= sfc mailing list
>=
&nbs= p;
____= ___________________________________________
sfc = mailing list
&nbs= p;
 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B899585891393FEORSMSX112amrcor_-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 19:56:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B66211ACE58 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:56:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q23K6-tgl3Q4 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga01.intel.com (mga01.intel.com [192.55.52.88]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B6D1ACE57 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by fmsmga101.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 19:55:59 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,305,1444719600"; d="scan'208,217";a="852579358" Received: from orsmsx104.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.131]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 19:55:55 -0800 Received: from orsmsx111.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.12) by ORSMSX104.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.131) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:55:55 -0800 Received: from orsmsx112.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.12.72]) by ORSMSX111.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.251]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 19:55:55 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , Ron Parker , Dave Dolson , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRxVdX2Lz3depkuRzRNYC1xZY56Y+1sAgAAwvcCABWrwgIABBflA Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 03:55:54 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139419@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FF8B@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <318c1855e1d4429cbe85bb504d592e8f@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <318c1855e1d4429cbe85bb504d592e8f@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.138] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139419ORSMSX112amrcor_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 03:56:04 -0000 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139419ORSMSX112amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Surendra Pls see [UE] below Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 8:17 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Ron Parker; Dave Dolson; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:38 PM To: Ron Parker >; Dave Dolson >; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Few comments 1) The NSH draft right now, is careful stating that an SF can ONLY dec= rement the SI and technically can't change the SPI and w/o a classifier can= 't change metadata ("Context Header") either. It is not easy/possible from = an SFF point of view to tell which SF comprises a Classifier too or not. wi= thout Control Plane indication the SFF can't tell if an SF is to be trusted= or not. Now, this has implications. SK> The normative requirement that SF decrement SI is incorrect. It mixes f= orwarding decision with service delivery! You are correct in observing cont= rol plane involvement is required to put the environment/deployment in orde= r and identifying the roles of the components. [UE] replied in the other thread 2) A Trusted SF - may be / should be privy to the whole external pack= et, as it may need it for further processing or simplification (e.g. in a m= ulti tenancy scenario be able to associate dup IP addresses with the right= tenant for employing diff policy/processing/SPI). As the SF is trusted, no= state in the SFF is required on the Tx, to ensure no abuse of the NSH (SI = or SPI). State may still be required somewhere, for the case an internal fi= eld has changed e.g. due to NAT which may change the classification results= and hence the forwarding/processing decision. SK> Clear separation of service/application vs. infrastructure is absolutel= y essential. This does not prevent co-location of architecture components. = Having SFs make forwarding decisions while SFFs enforcing those decisions m= uddles the water, whether SF is trusted or not. In multi-tenancy SF is bett= er served with the use of metadata to identify tenant than the SPI itself a= nd treat SPI+SI as opaque data. [UE] SF are not making forwarding decisions, however they can influence the= m. They can also alter the packet content e.g NAT and this is desired 3) "Local circuit" concept (i.e. between the SFF and the SF) - becomes= optional. One may prefer Eth+NSH locally as an example, and use some form = of tunneling outside on the "transport", but one may also simply extend the= "tunnel" to the SF too. This promotes also, the question of the vTEP for t= he external "transport". The local vSwitch (integrated w the SFF or not) sh= ould have that responsibility. This is a bit out of scope for the SFC WG, t= hough. 4) Legacy and Proxy - the SFF is to be programmed as to what encapsul= ation to use on the "local circuit" . A Proxy is a trusted entity and there= fore is no different from a trusted SF as above. A legacy SF is not partici= pating in NSH processing and so it is may be irrelevant if it is to trusted= or not.. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 6:38 AM To: Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Dave, I agree with your analysis. What we've been thinking of as "legacy SF" (i= .e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted SF (i= .e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH). Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM To: Elzur, Uri >; sfc@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Uri, I think the consequences of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like= a "legacy SF" device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH hea= ders. Trusting the SF with NSH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move = packets to any chain, perhaps crossing tenant boundaries. So therefore, SFs using NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the = SF-Proxy approach if operators have untrusted SFs. In my opinion, the issues of so-called "legacy" SFC are therefore elevated = in importance. We should be discussing "legacy and untrusted SF". E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06 could be entitled, "SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF" -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139419ORSMSX112amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Surendra

 

Pls see [UE] below

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkuma= r@cisco.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 8:17 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Ron Parker; Dave Dolson; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 9:38 PM
To: Ron Parker <Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com>; Dave Dolson <ddolson@sandvine.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Few comments

 

1)&n= bsp;     The NSH draft = right now, is careful stating that an SF can ONLY decrement the SI and tech= nically can’t change the SPI and w/o a classifier can’t change = metadata (“Context Header”) either. It is not easy/possible from an SFF point of view to tell which SF comprises a Class= ifier too or not. without Control Plane indication the SFF can’t tell= if an SF is to be trusted or not. Now, this has implications.

SK> The normative requirement that SF decrement S= I is incorrect. It mixes forwarding decision with service delivery! = You are correct in observing control plane involvement is required to put t= he environment/deployment in order and identifying the roles of the components.

[UE] replied in the other thread=

 

2)&n= bsp;     A Trusted SF &= #8211; may be / should be  privy to the whole external packet, as it m= ay need it for further processing or simplification (e.g. in a multi tenanc= y scenario be able to associate dup  IP addresses with the right tenant for employing diff policy/processing/SPI). As the SF= is trusted, no state in the SFF is required on the Tx, to ensure no abuse = of the NSH (SI or SPI). State may still be required somewhere, for the case= an internal field has changed e.g. due to NAT which may change the classification results and hence the forwa= rding/processing decision.

SK> Clear separation of service/application vs. i= nfrastructure is absolutely essential. This does not prevent co-location of= architecture components. Having SFs make forwarding decisions while SFFs e= nforcing those decisions muddles the water, whether SF is trusted or not. In multi-tenancy SF is better served = with the use of metadata to identify tenant than the SPI itself and treat S= PI+SI as opaque data.

[UE] SF are not making forwarding dec= isions, however they can influence them. They can also alter the packet con= tent e.g NAT and this is desired

 

3)&n= bsp;     “Local c= ircuit” concept (i.e. between the SFF and the SF) – becomes opt= ional. One may prefer Eth+NSH locally as an example, and use some form = of tunneling outside on the “transport”, but one may also simply extend the “tunnel” to the SF too. This promotes also, = the question of the vTEP for the external “transport”. The loca= l vSwitch (integrated w the SFF or not) should have that responsibility. Th= is is a bit out of scope for the SFC WG, though.

4)&n= bsp;     Legacy and Pro= xy -  the SFF is to be programmed as to what encapsulation to use on t= he “local circuit” . A Proxy is a trusted entity and therefore = is no different from a trusted SF as above. A legacy SF is not participating in NSH processing and so it is may be irrelevant i= f it is to trusted or not..

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 6:38 AM
To: Dave Dolson; Elzur, Uri; sfc@iet= f.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Dave,

 

I agree with your anal= ysis.   What we’ve been thinking of as “legacy SFR= 21; (i.e., incapable of processing NSH) can be applied equally to untrusted= SF (i.e., capable of processing NSH, but local policy is to not provide NSH).

 

   Ron<= /o:p>

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 2:32 AM
To: Elzur, Uri <uri.elzur@= intel.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Uri,=

 

I think the consequenc= es of not trusting the SF are that it be treated like a “legacy SF= 221; device in the sense that it not be sent packets with NSH headers.=

Trusting the SF with N= SH headers and metadata gives it the ability to move packets to any chain, = perhaps crossing tenant boundaries.

 

So therefore, SFs usin= g NSH must be trusted. The architecture supports the SF-Proxy approach if o= perators have untrusted SFs.

 

In my opinion, the iss= ues of so-called “legacy” SFC are therefore elevated in importa= nce. We should be discussing “legacy and untrusted SF”.

E.g., in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-song-sfc-legacy-sf-mapping-06

could be entitled, = 220;SFC Header Mapping for Legacy SF and Untrusted SF”

 

-Dave

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:42 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi <= /p>

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= o:p>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 =

--_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139419ORSMSX112amrcor_-- From nobody Mon Nov 16 20:01:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BE01ACE69 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:01:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TEDTH5J-AfnS for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga14.intel.com (mga14.intel.com [192.55.52.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E6A1ACE66 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:01:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from orsmga002.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.21]) by fmsmga103.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 20:01:00 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,305,1444719600"; d="png'150?scan'150,208,217,150";a="852391443" Received: from orsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.5]) by orsmga002.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 20:01:01 -0800 Received: from orsmsx111.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.12) by ORSMSX107.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:00:59 -0800 Received: from orsmsx112.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.12.72]) by ORSMSX111.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.251]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:00:59 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHWP2QPh/sCJgiEiQkT8QZOnYVJ6ZFLGAgAAi7/CAANx6AIAAFdYwgASQw4CAAOOFUA== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 04:00:58 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.138] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434ORSMSX112amrcor_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 04:01:06 -0000 --_004_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434ORSMSX112amrcor_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434ORSMSX112amrcor_" --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434ORSMSX112amrcor_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has [cid:image001.png@01D120A9.81B2DE00] Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf= .org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating some things from previous= responses.] Keep the separation * between packet forwarding and service delivery * between application and infrastructure * between metadata and forwarding data * etc. Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables SFs to focus on service d= elivery and not service chaining and forwarding complexity, that goes into = the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery a= nd not for packet forwarding, that belongs in SFF. Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF into the service plane wi= thout having to concern themselves about how that affects packet forwarding= in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off do= ing the SFF's job. If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operators' view should be obvi= ous. NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed off the normative langu= age in this regard and is misguided in specifying, for instance, the decrem= ent of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out = the window. Surendra. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) >;= Jim Guichard (jguichar) >; s= fc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Reinaldo It seems like we are arguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about= the security aspect, it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of = clarifying the potential role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. = no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role vs abusi= ng SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the latter= is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egress etc.= Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an "SF= can be trusted for NSH purposes" then it can lead to some simplifications= , I believe SK> I'm also ok leaving status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and= proxy roles. But I do think that making the assumption like you make, that= the issue of the SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simpli= fy our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the NSH SPECIFC securi= ty aspects and this is on-going on the ml Hope this makes my comments a bit clearer Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF." It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434ORSMSX112amrcor_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has

 

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkuma= r@cisco.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); s= fc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

 

[Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating s= ome things from previous responses.]

 

Keep the separation

·         between packet forwarding and service deliv= ery

·         between application and infrastructure=

·         between metadata and forwarding data

·         etc.

 

Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables S= Fs to focus on service delivery and not service chaining and forwarding com= plexity, that goes into the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery and not for packet forwa= rding, that belongs in SFF.

 

Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF i= nto the service plane without having to concern themselves about how that a= ffects packet forwarding in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off doing the SFF’s job.<= o:p>

 

If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operat= ors’ view should be obvious.

 

NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed= off the normative language in this regard and is misguided in specifying, = for instance, the decrement of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out the window.

 

Surendra.

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM
To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Reinaldo

 

It seems like we are a= rguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about the security aspect, = it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of clarifying the potenti= al role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role v= s abusing SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the= latter is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egre= ss etc. Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an “SF can be trusted for= NSH purposes”  then it can lead to some simplifications, I beli= eve

SK>

 

I’m also ok leav= ing status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and proxy roles. Bu= t I do think that making the assumption like you make, that the issue of th= e SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simplify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the = NSH SPECIFC security aspects and this is on-going on the ml

 

Hope this makes my com= ments a bit clearer

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

"The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.”

&n= bsp;

It se= ems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH.  I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a = device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. 

 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security require= ments. What new specific NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard = against. Solving device trust issue, IP networks layer issues, transport is= sues, etc seems very much out of scope of this WG.    =

 

Thank= s,

 

&n= bsp;

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com&g= t;
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <r= epenno@cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (j= guichar)" <jguichar@ci= sco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

(reply #3, you may wan= t to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

 <= /span>

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Jim Guichard (jguichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

[Chair = hat off …]

 <= /span>

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

 <= /span>

Jim

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Elzur, Uri" <uri= .elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

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ESMTP id B8D8D1ACE84 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:04:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from fmsmga002.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.26]) by fmsmga101.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 20:04:58 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,306,1444719600"; d="scan'208";a="852583930" Received: from orsmsx104.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.131]) by fmsmga002.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Nov 2015 20:04:46 -0800 Received: from orsmsx154.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.226.12) by ORSMSX104.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.131) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.248.2; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:04:45 -0800 Received: from orsmsx112.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.12.72]) by ORSMSX154.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.165]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 16 Nov 2015 20:04:45 -0800 From: "Elzur, Uri" To: Nicolas BOUTHORS , "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRIAFNDLBS8cf45U6LskOLWf1Je56fPLgAgABctdA= Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 04:04:45 +0000 Message-ID: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139456@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <76B41B8FACE1514795D30EC137FF391D8B3C89@CAROUBIER.jungle.qosmos.com> In-Reply-To: <76B41B8FACE1514795D30EC137FF391D8B3C89@CAROUBIER.jungle.qosmos.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.22.254.138] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 04:04:59 -0000 Tmljb2xhcw0KDQpQbHMgc2VlIHJlc3BvbnNlIGluIHRoZSBvdGhlciBtYWlsIG9uIHRoaXMgdGhy ZWFkLiBTb21lIFNGcyBhcmUgcGFydCBvZiB0aGUgaW5mcmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgYXMgeW91IHBvaW50 ZWQgb3V0LiBJZiB3ZSBhcmUgdG8gaGF2ZSAibGVzcyB0cnVzdGVkIFNGcyIgdG9vLCBpdCB3aWwg aGF2ZSBpbXBsaWNhdGlvbnMgb24gdGhlIENvbnRyb2wgcGxhbmUgYW5kIG9uIHRoZSBhYmlsaXR5 IG9mIHRoZXNlIGxlc3MgcHJpdmlsZWdlZCBTRiB0byBiZSB1c2VkIGluIG11bHRpLXRlbmFudCBl bnYuDQoNCkl0IG1heSBhZGQgdW5uZWNlc3NhcnkgY29tcGxleGl0eS4gU28gSSB3YXMgcHJvcG9z aW5nIHRydXN0IHRoZSBTRiwgc3ViamVjdCB0byBXRyBhZ3JlZWQgcHJvY2Vzc2VkIGlucHV0IG9m IFNGQyBTZWN1cml0eSB3b3JrDQoNClRoeA0KDQpVcmkgKOKAnE9vLVJlZeKAnSkNCkM6IDk0OS0z NzgtNzU2OA0KDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBOaWNvbGFzIEJP VVRIT1JTIFttYWlsdG86Tmljb2xhcy5CT1VUSE9SU0Bxb3Ntb3MuY29tXSANClNlbnQ6IE1vbmRh 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qG1lLiBEYW5zIGNldHRlIGh5cG90aMOoc2UsIHZvdXMgbuKAmcOqdGVzIHBhcyBhdXRvcmlzw6kg w6AgdXRpbGlzZXIsIGNvcGllciBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIGV0L291IGVuIGRpdnVsZ3VlciBsZSBjb250 ZW51IMOgIHVuIHRpZXJzLiBUb3V0IG1lc3NhZ2Ugw6lsZWN0cm9uaXF1ZSBlc3Qgc3VzY2VwdGli bGUgZCdhbHTDqXJhdGlvbi4gUW9zbW9zIGV0IHNlcyBmaWxpYWxlcyBkw6ljbGluZW50IHRvdXRl IHJlc3BvbnNhYmlsaXTDqSBhdSB0aXRyZSBkZSBjZSBtZXNzYWdlIHMnaWwgYSDDqXTDqSBhbHTD qXLDqSwgZMOpZm9ybcOpIG91IGZhbHNpZmnDqS4NCg== From nobody Tue Nov 17 00:51:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00D61B2CD0 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 00:51:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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([fe80::5524:2c18:b2c3:74d4%14]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:51:10 +0100 From: Nicolas BOUTHORS To: "Elzur, Uri" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRICWe/W7iYOvzvkWerPCgguDUlp6es3rAgADVpoCAAFH6gA== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:51:10 +0000 Message-ID: <76B41B8FACE1514795D30EC137FF391D8B3EB0@CAROUBIER.jungle.qosmos.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <5644AED2.4070000@joelhalpern.com> <8b2582694db94bb6b8bcbd047531361a@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <76B41B8FACE1514795D30EC137FF391D8B3C89@CAROUBIER.jungle.qosmos.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139456@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139456@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US, fr-FR Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.12.1.33] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1383-8.0.0.1202-21946.006 X-TM-AS-Result: No--32.223-5.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--32.223-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1383-8.0.1202-21946.006 X-TMASE-Result: 10--32.222600-5.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: IeZYkn8zfFqQ4R94VvPFuYWs+rMQjb4f1kqyrcMalqUhvFjBsLEZNPNV fm8Bd/bb60NpvSJliZ6yqup5qwJK8OsY/baZcXtaU+OjsPhIWDhStCTjSVI9jut/3xeV9XtnLVC QfSxiPca7v63adVEhhIR6ktsj4/uo3JnJK2Eeha9VnniKh7YTC7e5OgQzJQdYWyzYcUZOnastiY Zvl2ghihfDSmuAMQpg4SKPK6qFpYq1nd0IY98QVcOD5TU1KZy5H4CR7I+OfAhcKZwALwMGs1XJO 5JQvrlB8e5Od6LjZg+IL94gkfHKjgQdrmJPSazDgFd2TFaysMjNUTeBBPKQKiuq7DJrYeUmNf6y 58BlSM9eCZO/i8ReLrMxMjgM+Psnu9Vn7JGbxC6iy+EhgYW4s0wygiJRY6oA6ouYUIynB9TAktg DJtZ0Av0V7H8FKmQSELXk/LkjhRXaGR4xaWbezQI0yP/uoH+DHaNQx5aVhHmIlH0NRaWl1SjO8i f2jlXGmVxFjZL34wE3goV2dh3qnkqkgzox/CQaqVdeuk7LerQIgWIk/VdnUniUxMMGILzdHnKiP 0fP4zro/+wYEcqmrC3eYabOU2IseS5Pn4nSfgTzh2yKdnl7WNL5WpA78Ye8BoA1fKObuhOqYre3 JMS6hc3DBOwul+3L5T1jmXZ6BXyO1b2QizZxJ54RyjTmGyy+f6/Md8Lb2l9q4coTktrGX0zvHoP GMGRZeOZ2vlB/wXHOJIQ2+HWHEze/ZRYxF8bdRsqQuQlRTh8hotH7bEpEMkklF5L0lQHcBsTxCa cZZxUXOB12/JwCNIJET88x1AvDBL4/RE3F3weeAiCmPx4NwMFrpUbb72MU1B0Hk1Q1KyKrF5UpO UNpcI2j49Ftap9EkGUtrowrXLg= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.801202.0001-0-1-22:0,12:0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:51:48 -0000 SGVsbG8gVXJpDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB0aGlzIHByb3Bvc2FsLiAgSXQgaXMgdGhlIGxvZ2lj YWwgY29uY2x1c2lvbiBJIHJlYWNoIGZyb20gdGhlIG5vdGUgSSBtYWRlLg0KDQorMSBhbHNvIG9u IHlvdXIgb3RoZXIgcG9pbnQgc3RhdGluZyB0aGF0IHRoZSBTSSBtb2RpZmljYXRpb24gaXMgYW4g aW5kaWNhdGlvbiBmb3IgdGhlIFNGRiB0aGF0IHRoZSBTRiBpcyBhY3RpdmUuDQoNCg0KDQpGcm9t ICBhIHNlY3VyaXR5IHBvaW50IG9mIHZpZXcgdGhlIHBvaW50cyB0aGF0IEkgY2FuIHNlZSB0aGF0 IHNob3VsZCBiZSB0YWNrbGVkOg0KDQotIENvbnRyb2wgaWYgU0ZzIGluIGEgY2hhaW4gY2FuIGJl IGRlZGljYXRlZCB0byBhIGNoYWluIC8gdGVuYW50IG9yIGNhbiBwcm9jZXNzIHRyYWZmaWMgIGZy b20gbXVsdGlwbGUgY2hhaW5zIC8gdGVuYW50cw0KDQogICBBbGxvd2luZyBhIGNoYWluIHVzZXIg dG8gc3BlY2lmeSB0aGF0IGl0IHdhbnRzIGRlZGljYXRlZCByZXNvdXJjZXMgdG8gaGFuZGxlIGhp cyB0cmFmZmljIHNlZW1zIHVzZWZ1bC4gIFRoaXMgZG9lcyBub3QgICBzZWVtIHRvbyBjb3N0bHkg 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at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_26=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AdCWXXXeYELc for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 04:58:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor36.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2DD51B2EDB for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 04:58:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id BC9DE403DC; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:58:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.75]) by 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #14 (control-plane): Taeho's Comments X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:58:07 -0000 SGkgVGFlaG8sDQoNClBsZWFzZSBzZWUgaW5saW5lLiANCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0t LS1NZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IOqwle2DnO2YuChTRE4gUHJvamVjdCkg W21haWx0bzp0aC5rYW5nQGt0LmNvbV0NCj4gRW52b3nDqcKgOiBkaW1hbmNoZSA0IG9jdG9icmUg MjAxNSAwNDo1Mw0KPiDDgMKgOiBzZmMgaXNzdWUgdHJhY2tlcjsgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1zZmMtY29u dHJvbC1wbGFuZUB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZzsNCj4gQk9VQ0FEQUlSIE1vaGFtZWQgSU1UL09MTg0K PiBDY8KgOiBzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gT2JqZXTCoDogUkU6IFtzZmNdICMxNCAoY29udHJvbC1w bGFuZSk6IFRhZWhvJ3MgQ29tbWVudHMNCj4gDQo+IEhpLA0KPiBTb3JyeSBmb3IgbGF0ZSByZWFj dGlvbi4NCj4gDQo+IFJlc2lsaWVuY3kgYW5kIGxvYWQgYmFsYW5jaW5nIG1pZ2h0IGFsc28gaW5j 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Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0CA1B2F40 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 05:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7sWMQCc3sEpv for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 05:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FA821B2F3F for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 05:34:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id E41F540421; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:34:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.24]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id A9A2C1A0054; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:34:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM7D.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::9044:c5ee:4dd2:4f16%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:34:20 +0100 From: To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+A= Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:34:19 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:34:25 -0000 Hi Paul, Thank you for sharing your feedback. RFC7665 says the following: " This architecture does not mandate the degree of specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC-enabled domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which SFF and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while other SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. " The control draft is completely aligned with that approach.=20 The control-plane document allows in particular to provision required infor= mation when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens that = information is no more than the service chain itself (without any constrain= ts). Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose path (S= FP) or a strict path (RSP), etc.=20 I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain or if i= t is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. Nevertheless, the cont= rol plan should accommodate all these flavors.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] > Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 16 octobre 2015 14:04 > =C0=A0: Joel M. Halpern > Cc=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-contr= ol- > plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org > Objet=A0: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operat= es > on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Joel, >=20 > I concur. >=20 > The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of paths to > chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more likely "policy" > plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to implementation, in > the architecture draft, but that's consistent with your position and > provides the requisite functionality. >=20 > Paul >=20 > > On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > > > As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining work tha= t > requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within the > data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the control > plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other than the data > plane. When I look at this document, all of the requirements that talk > about service function chain IDs can be accurately captured, in terms of > data plane requirements, by service function path IDs. Thus, the > requirement that the data plane has is to see such path IDs. Yes, in som= e > deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are still path IDs. > > > > Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with chain > IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. > > > > Yours, > > Joel M. Halpern > > > > On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > >> Re-, > >> > >> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane > architecture document. > >> > >> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: > >> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". > >> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. > >> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the abstract SFC= . > >> (4) Some others may impose either loose or strict routes. > >> > >> Requiring SFP IDs for deployments that do not impose any constraint on > the SFC is an oxymoron because according to the data plane architecture, > an SFP is a "constrained version of the original SFC". > >> > >> For deployments that do not impose any constraint on the abstract SFC, > but adopt a fully distributed SFC forwarding strategy, a chain identifier > is sufficient. > >> > >> Because an SFP may be associated with several SFCs, the identifier of > the SFC may be required to associate an SFP with its SFC. > >> > >> Below an excerpt from the arch draft, fwiw: > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> A service function path (SFP) is a mechanism used by service > chaining > >> to express the result of applying more granular policy and > >> operational constraints to the abstract requirements of a service > >> chain (SFC). This architecture does not mandate the degree of > >> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC- > enabled > >> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which > SFF > >> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while > other > >> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about > the > >> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The > >> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. > >> > >> As an example of such an intermediate specificity, there may be two > >> SFPs associated with a given SFC, where one SFP specifies that any > >> order of SFF and SF may be used as long as it is within data center > >> 1, and where the second SFP allows the same latitude, but only > within > >> data center 2. > >> > >> Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation (dependin= g > >> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained > >> version of the original SFC. Since multiple policies may apply to > >> different traffic that uses the same SFC, it also follows that ther= e > >> may be multiple SFPs may be associated with a single SFC. > >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Med > >> > >>> -----Message d'origine----- > >>> De : Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] > >>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 16 septembre 2015 19:15 > >>> =C0 : sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > >>> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN > >>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org > >>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane > operates > >>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > >>> > >>> Given that we have an adopted architecture that specifies that the > >>> system should function in terms of service function paths, I would > >>> prefer that the control requirements draft align with the architectur= e > >>> in that regard. We are, as far as I know, specifying the requirement= s > >>> for control mechanisms in support of the architecture and data plane > we > >>> standardize. > >>> > >>> Yours, > >>> Joel > >>> > >>> On 9/16/15 9:46 AM, sfc issue tracker wrote: > >>>> #15: Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > >>>> > >>>> The draft includes this note: > >>>> > >>>> [[Note: The question of whether the data plane operates > just > >>> in > >>>> terms of SFP IDs or needs SFC IDs, as described in this > >>> version > >>>> of the draft, is still under discussion among the > authors.]] > >>>> > >>>> The current version of the draft is more generic as it does not > >>> preclude > >>>> manipulating service chains based on an identifier of the chain. > Also, > >>> it > >>>> does not assume that the SFP indirection level is mandatory (SFP > IDs). > >>>> > >>>> Note the current version accommodates various deployment contexts: > >>> e.g., > >>>> rely solely on a chain ID, rely on a chain ID and a SFP, supply a > >>> strict > >>>> path, supply a loose path, etc. The purpose is to not dictate > >>> deployment > >>>> choices on how forwarding is actually achieved within an SFC- > enabled > >>>> domain. > >>>> > >>>> An identifier of the chain is the minimum information that is > needed, > >>> but > >>>> other information may be supplied as well. > >>>> > >>>> Feedback from the WG about which information to supply is needed. > >>>> > >>>> FWIW, there is a ticket issue for this issue for the nsh spec. > >>>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > sfc mailing list > > sfc@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Tue Nov 17 05:48:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504BA1B2F79 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 05:48:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Qu3uKCGPWuL for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 05:48:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C0A31B2F5A for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 05:48:52 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-42-564ac228879f Received: from EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.81]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 13.00.26730.822CA465; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:59:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB101.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.118]) by EUSAAHC003.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 08:48:50 -0500 From: Joel Halpern To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYl6OiFMYjzlEKe/O14io7+jJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAAfC8A== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:48:49 +0000 Message-ID: <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprPIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPoK7GIa8wg28PFC1mtElYfDz1hsni 8Nun7Bb7Xy1ltXjyYCu7xYW3i5kd2Dym/N7I6rFkyU8mj3NTvjN6tDw7yebx5fJntgDWKC6b lNSczLLUIn27BK6MF++uMBb0KVW8u/CVvYFxmXQXIweHhICJxO+9Tl2MnECmmMSFe+vZuhi5 OIQEjjBKrLqxgRXCWc4osfjuVCaQKjYBPYm17x+D2SIC2RIfVh5iBiliFrjFKPGg+SgLSEJY IE1i8e4WNoiidIlLm06wQNhhEqe3NrGC2CwCqhIP/v4Es3kFfCUWth1lh9j2jkniyefJYA2c AkkSc/vXMIPYjED3fT+1Bmwzs4C4xK0n85kg7haQWLLnPDOELSrx8vE/VghbSeLj7/nsEPV6 EjemTmGDsLUlli18zQyxWFDi5MwnLBMYxWYhGTsLScssJC2zkLQsYGRZxchRWpxalptuZLiJ ERhtxyTYHHcwLvhkeYhRgINRiYf3Q7xXmBBrYllxZe4hRgkOZiUR3uJXQCHelMTKqtSi/Pii 0pzU4kOM0hwsSuK882bcDxUSSE8sSc1OTS1ILYLJMnFwSjUw5jOlpdXMKVfWTrvLx3LAlNHn tI7dZ4b0T367+S6Z9Pvd33Vkav7DVu9HWXs3XHVJ41YTmbPPQavApEBJVdGQ8+MOxfCbTK+E vwev/ytte3rCpIUznafrRv0X//Bc1sM/U/bcqm/dryeGN0U7LhINPbu77YLPEg6rtoCayYrP 2yvC0y8zMbgqsRRnJBpqMRcVJwIAtm3vMrICAAA= Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:48:54 -0000 Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than the servi= ce chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers to " the exa= ct sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does not make sense t= o me. The SFC is the general description of the objective. That is not th= e same as the exact sequence of places that must be visited. I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the control r= equirements draft should be SFP. Yours, Joel -----Original Message----- From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM To: Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@iet= f.org; Joel M. Halpern Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates = on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Hi Paul, Thank you for sharing your feedback. RFC7665 says the following: " This architecture does not mandate the degree of specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC-enabled domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which SFF and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while other SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. " The control draft is completely aligned with that approach.=20 The control-plane document allows in particular to provision required infor= mation when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens that = information is no more than the service chain itself (without any constrain= ts). Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose path (S= FP) or a strict path (RSP), etc.=20 I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain or if i= t is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. Nevertheless, the cont= rol plan should accommodate all these flavors.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi = 16=20 > octobre 2015 14:04 =C0=A0: Joel M. Halpern Cc=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/O= LN;=20 > sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- plane@tools.ietf.org;=20 > sfc@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the=20 > control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Joel, >=20 > I concur. >=20 > The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of paths=20 > to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more likely "polic= y" > plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to implementation,=20 > in the architecture draft, but that's consistent with your position=20 > and provides the requisite functionality. >=20 > Paul >=20 > > On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: > > > > As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining work=20 > > that > requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within=20 > the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the=20 > control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other than=20 > the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the requirements=20 > that talk about service function chain IDs can be accurately captured,=20 > in terms of data plane requirements, by service function path IDs. =20 > Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path IDs. =20 > Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are stil= l path IDs. > > > > Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with=20 > > chain > IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. > > > > Yours, > > Joel M. Halpern > > > > On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > >> Re-, > >> > >> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane > architecture document. > >> > >> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: > >> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". > >> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. > >> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the abstract SFC From nobody Tue Nov 17 06:02:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 658AD1B2FBD for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:02:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HJ4LDyR9TRNQ for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:02:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F26411B2FCB for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by omfedm09.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 2A4672DC31F; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:02:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.31]) by omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 03A9927C071; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:02:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM22.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::8c90:f4e9:be28:2a1%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:02:42 +0100 From: To: Joel Halpern , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYl6OiFMYjzlEKe/O14io7+jJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAAfC8IAAAYXQ Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:02:42 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:02:54 -0000 Hi Joel,=20 Please see inline.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] > Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) > Cc=A0: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > Objet=A0: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operat= es > on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than the > service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers to " > the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does not mak= e > sense to me.=20 [Med] RFC 7665 says: " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation (depending upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained version of the original SFC. "=20 in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original SFC. What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to the infor= mation that you will provision to an SFF when the path computation and sele= ction decision is "deferred to the SFF"? It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC as SFP = given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained version of the or= iginal SFC"! The SFC is the general description of the objective. That > is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be visited. >=20 > I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the control > requirements draft should be SFP. >=20 [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not aligned= with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a non-constrained S= FC to a fully constrained SFC.=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM > To: Paul Quinn (paulq) > Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operate= s > on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Hi Paul, >=20 > Thank you for sharing your feedback. >=20 > RFC7665 says the following: >=20 > " > This architecture does not mandate the degree of > specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC-enabled > domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which SFF > and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while other > SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about the > exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The > specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. > " >=20 > The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >=20 > The control-plane document allows in particular to provision required > information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the > exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens tha= t > information is no more than the service chain itself (without any > constraints). >=20 > Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose path > (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >=20 > I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain or if > it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. Nevertheless, the > control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De=A0: Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=E9=A0: vendred= i 16 > > octobre 2015 14:04 =C0=A0: Joel M. Halpern Cc=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT= /OLN; > > sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- plane@tools.ietf.org; > > sfc@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the > > control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > > > > Joel, > > > > I concur. > > > > The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of paths > > to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more likely > "policy" > > plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to implementation, > > in the architecture draft, but that's consistent with your position > > and provides the requisite functionality. > > > > Paul > > > > > On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern > > wrote: > > > > > > As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining work > > > that > > requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within > > the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the > > control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other than > > the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the requirements > > that talk about service function chain IDs can be accurately captured, > > in terms of data plane requirements, by service function path IDs. > > Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path IDs. > > Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are > still path IDs. > > > > > > Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with > > > chain > > IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Joel M. Halpern > > > > > > On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > >> Re-, > > >> > > >> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane > > architecture document. > > >> > > >> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: > > >> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". > > >> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. > > >> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the abstract > SFC From nobody Tue Nov 17 06:06:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F531B2FE2 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:06:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yWL-kT628oI4 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:06:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from usevmg21.ericsson.net (usevmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF8A61B2FE1 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:06:13 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f792c6d00000686a-ed-564ac6391c07 Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by usevmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 83.D0.26730.936CA465; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 07:16:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB101.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.118]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 09:06:10 -0500 From: Joel Halpern To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYl6OiFMYjzlEKe/O14io7+jJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAAfC8IAAAYXQgAADO9A= Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:06:10 +0000 Message-ID: <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprPIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuK7lMa8wgx8vZS1mtElYfDz1hsni 8Nun7Bb7Xy1ltXjyYCu7xYW3i5kd2Dym/N7I6rFkyU8mj3NTvjN6tDw7yebx5fJntgDWKC6b lNSczLLUIn27BK6Ms++PshX8NKs4tOEmcwPjLe0uRk4OCQETiZkX1rFB2GISF+6tB7K5OIQE jjBKrNr9nh3CWc4osXtJCzNIFZuAnsTa94+ZQGwRgWyJDysPMYMUMQvcYpR40HyUBSQhLJAm sXh3CxtEUbrEpU0nWCDsJIkdVxYygtgsAqoSi89OAdrAwcEr4CvR98MdYlkXi8T0rhnsIDWc QPWr118Eq2cEOu/7qTVgi5kFxCVuPZnPBHG2gMSSPeeZIWxRiZeP/7FC2EoSH3/PZ4eo15O4 MXUKG4StLbFs4Wuwel4BQYmTM5+wTGAUm4Vk7CwkLbOQtMxC0rKAkWUVI0dpcWpZbrqR4SZG YLQdk2Bz3MG44JPlIUYBDkYlHt4P8V5hQqyJZcWVuYcYJTiYlUR4i18BhXhTEiurUovy44tK c1KLDzFKc7AoifPOm3E/VEggPbEkNTs1tSC1CCbLxMEp1cA4PT5oddKmIl6p1izFq5cqj92J eXTvufez2GcsD6uWmDus9DCfM9mFpXvVjVf7txWcruTj+5D3VyzqVolyYOkypg3LW5omVoex WX3mXhJr6mkb/ePkRqeHmn1TqpYbrevP2JwTvrOF8/qkYqf1E/lbxAM7zGVyWZf1+RffVubk OBDb9onlh4USS3FGoqEWc1FxIgDH9YtbsgIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:06:15 -0000 What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control system deci= des whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible choices that th= e SFC does, or is a proper subset. =20 In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints, what is = provisioned has to be the SFP. No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is isomorphic to = the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the result is an= SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the SFC then yo= u are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases that can be= handled. Yours, Joel -----Original Message----- From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@iet= f.org; Joel M. Halpern Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates = on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Hi Joel,=20 Please see inline.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] > Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc=A0: sfc issue=20 > tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > Objet=A0: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane=20 > operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than the=20 > service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers to " > the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does not=20 > make sense to me. [Med] RFC 7665 says: " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation (depending upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained version of the original SFC. "=20 in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original SFC. What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to the infor= mation that you will provision to an SFF when the path computation and sele= ction decision is "deferred to the SFF"? It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC as SFP = given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained version of the or= iginal SFC"! The SFC is the general description of the objective. That > is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be visited. >=20 > I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the=20 > control requirements draft should be SFP. >=20 [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not aligned= with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a non-constrained S= FC to a fully constrained SFC.=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=20 > [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM > To: Paul Quinn (paulq) > Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane=20 > operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Hi Paul, >=20 > Thank you for sharing your feedback. >=20 > RFC7665 says the following: >=20 > " > This architecture does not mandate the degree of > specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC-enabled > domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which SFF > and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while other > SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about the > exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The > specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. > " >=20 > The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >=20 > The control-plane document allows in particular to provision required=20 > information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the > exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens=20 > that information is no more than the service chain itself (without any=20 > constraints). >=20 > Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose=20 > path > (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >=20 > I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain or=20 > if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. Nevertheless,=20 > the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De=A0: Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=E9=A0: vendred= i=20 > > 16 octobre 2015 14:04 =C0=A0: Joel M. Halpern Cc=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed= =20 > > IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-=20 > > plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [sfc] #15=20 > > (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs= , etc. > > > > Joel, > > > > I concur. > > > > The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of=20 > > paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more=20 > > likely > "policy" > > plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to=20 > > implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent=20 > > with your position and provides the requisite functionality. > > > > Paul > > > > > On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern=20 > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining=20 > > > work that > > requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within=20 > > the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the=20 > > control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other=20 > > than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the=20 > > requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be=20 > > accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by service fu= nction path IDs. > > Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path IDs. > > Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are > still path IDs. > > > > > > Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with=20 > > > chain > > IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Joel M. Halpern > > > > > > On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > >> Re-, > > >> > > >> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane > > architecture document. > > >> > > >> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: > > >> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". > > >> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. > > >> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the=20 > > >> abstract > SFC From nobody Tue Nov 17 06:28:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D35C1B32DD for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:28:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kxU0jCRqY8wk for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:28:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor34.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E14241B32DA for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 06:28:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 3EEBC2007E; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:28:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.32]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0175B1A0061; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:28:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM32.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::8924:188:2124:a046%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 15:27:59 +0100 From: To: Joel Halpern , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYl6OiFMYjzlEKe/O14io7+jJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAAfC8IAAAYXQgAADO9CAAAE/UA== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:27:58 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F48D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:28:04 -0000 Re-, Thank you for engaging.=20 Please see inline.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] > Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 17 novembre 2015 15:06 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) > Cc=A0: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > Objet=A0: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operat= es > on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. [Med] Which one? Given than multiple SFPs may be bound to the same SFC=20 Excerpt from RFC7665: " Since multiple policies may apply to different traffic that uses the same SFC, it also follows that there may be multiple SFPs associated with a single SFC." The text talks about policies that are applied to the traffic whiteout any = precision where these policies are applied.=20 The control system > decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible choices > that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. [Med] That's indeed a valid case. The control plane accommodates that case.= =20 >=20 > In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints, what i= s > provisioned has to be the SFP. [Med] I would call that RSP. That's more clear. > No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is isomorphic t= o > the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the result is > an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. [Med] This is confusing, Joel. SFP cannot be isomorphic to the SFC as the d= efinition of an SFP is a "constrained version of SFC" (that is clearly ment= ioned in RFC7665). I'm for more consistency in the use of the notions we ar= e manipulating.=20 >=20 > If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the SFC then > you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases that ca= n > be handled. [Med] I'm not sure to see this extra complexity. I do even see benefits in = having access to the SFC information allows, e.g., correlate between a serv= ice path and a chain in deployments where a path may be shared among multip= le chains. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM > To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) > Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operate= s > on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Hi Joel, >=20 > Please see inline. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De=A0: Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] > > Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 > > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc=A0: sfc issue > > tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > > Objet=A0: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane > > operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > > > > Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than the > > service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers to = " > > the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does not > > make sense to me. >=20 > [Med] RFC 7665 says: >=20 > " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation (depending > upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained > version of the original SFC. " >=20 > in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original SFC. >=20 > What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to the > information that you will provision to an SFF when the path computation > and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >=20 > It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC as SF= P > given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained version of the > original SFC"! >=20 > The SFC is the general description of the objective. That > > is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be visited. > > > > I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the > > control requirements draft should be SFP. > > >=20 > [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not > aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a non- > constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >=20 > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > > [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM > > To: Paul Quinn (paulq) > > Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > > Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane > > operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > > > > Hi Paul, > > > > Thank you for sharing your feedback. > > > > RFC7665 says the following: > > > > " > > This architecture does not mandate the degree of > > specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC-enable= d > > domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which SF= F > > and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while othe= r > > SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about th= e > > exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The > > specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. > > " > > > > The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. > > > > The control-plane document allows in particular to provision required > > information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the > > exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens > > that information is no more than the service chain itself (without any > > constraints). > > > > Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose > > path > > (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. > > > > I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain or > > if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. Nevertheless, > > the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De=A0: Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=E9=A0: vendr= edi > > > 16 octobre 2015 14:04 =C0=A0: Joel M. Halpern Cc=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohame= d > > > IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- > > > plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet=A0: Re: [sfc] #15 > > > (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP > IDs, etc. > > > > > > Joel, > > > > > > I concur. > > > > > > The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of > > > paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more > > > likely > > "policy" > > > plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to > > > implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent > > > with your position and provides the requisite functionality. > > > > > > Paul > > > > > > > On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining > > > > work that > > > requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within > > > the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the > > > control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other > > > than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the > > > requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be > > > accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by service > function path IDs. > > > Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path IDs= . > > > Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are > > still path IDs. > > > > > > > > Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with > > > > chain > > > IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Joel M. Halpern > > > > > > > > On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > > >> Re-, > > > >> > > > >> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane > > > architecture document. > > > >> > > > >> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: > > > >> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". > > > >> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. > > > >> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the > > > >> abstract > > SFC From nobody Tue Nov 17 10:14:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD861A916B for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:14:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o2WBvudai2ur for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:14:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDB401A90F8 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 10:14:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=168779; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447784062; x=1448993662; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=WFoRdvWc+KNJHL9pCiXC98osy2r1bBcXpqWEsknj7W0=; b=LwRF2P4Wm9knION7eNlC4RBJfEMyH3OvOza/xyPodidNCUI2IP4c//lI R1dDxfO3nr+YftyBF9h1xOqMNcDlJ3BJ8VhPM8J0AAPldy8vjme073QE+ Mf2/QqNTdH8ANJAg0KjgLECgdF9SKS8KqjIz3Wg6pNJ3qFJO/wDDZoIzS w=; X-Files: image001.png : 85906 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DLAgCLbUtW/4YNJK1bA4JuTVNvBr5bD?= =?us-ascii?q?oFlhg8CgVA4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBBAUJDAsCBgE3BwoTAgEIEQECAQEBBgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BARgBBgcCBRABDgwUAwYIAgQBEQEGAgaIILxLAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBDwmLUoRoCQoBFQQNhBcBBIgdikqDYgGENgGIbIFihECDJYoxhGKDcQEfAUO?= =?us-ascii?q?CER2BVnKEA4EHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,309,1444694400"; d="png'150?scan'150,208,217,150";a="51418314" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 17 Nov 2015 18:14:19 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (xch-rcd-006.cisco.com [173.37.102.16]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAHIEKAx014781 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:14:20 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:14:19 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:14:18 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "Elzur, Uri" , "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVllFn7O1UA8UmUvJKuB0Kev56Y8jcAgAABkICAAOF6AIAAHe8AgACfQICAA37B8IAB8loAgAB2o2A= Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:14:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.114.180] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_fe5dab2b6e604654a7c81fa902a35852XCHRCD020ciscocom_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:14:31 -0000 --_004_fe5dab2b6e604654a7c81fa902a35852XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_fe5dab2b6e604654a7c81fa902a35852XCHRCD020ciscocom_" --_000_fe5dab2b6e604654a7c81fa902a35852XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Uri, I've tried consolidate the crux of your other comments here to do a single = response, please correct me if I misstate any of your comments/response or = if I'm taking them out of context. Uri>>SF are not making forwarding decisions, however they can influence the= m. SK2> SI dictates what the next hop is at the SFF. IOW, this index clearly i= nstructs the SFF where the packet must be sent next. An SI value of 2 may m= ean send to a FW or 1 may mean the chain is done and forward on the underla= y, etc.. So, this is not influencing, this is the actual decision - let's n= ot confuse this. Also, this is not random, this is all programmed by the co= ntrol plane. Uri>>As to the SI vs SPI: if the criteria prevent damage to thy neighboring= chain, SI decrement is not a issue. SK2> SFF is the one with the steering tables, which is programmed by the co= ntrol plane dictating how the packets should be steered. There is a well fo= rmulated structure that control plane manages. If an entity other than SFF = wants to decrement, then that should be under control planes control to ens= ure packet forwarding on the overlay network is correct. Otherwise you have= a wild west. By allowing this, you are removing the distinction between SF= and SFF - you might as well collapse them into one. The control plane now = not only needs to manage the service chains but also the SFs - becomes intr= actable. Uri>> ...And it is an indication of the SF being alve and doing some action= which may be better option that he SFF blindly decrementing SI SK2> As for knowing whether SF is alive, you don't need a decrement from th= e SF, the fact that the SFF is receiving the packet from that SF is indicat= ion enough. Anything beyond needs to well defined in the context of OAM and= not overload forwarding with OAM. Uri>> Clearly some SFs must be trusted e.g. NAT. NAT is an example of an S= F that is part of the infrastructure. SK2> This came up at the open-mic in Yokohama, I think Kent or someone had = some good comments on it. NAT brings up a lot of questions. And so does rou= ting that is part of many traditional firewalls or load balancers, which Ni= colas brought up. As an example, what happens to the overlay when the packe= t is transformed through a SF - does it terminate, or is it replaced with a= new one or continues through it ? What are the implications of each ? What= happens to the SPI+SI? It is not a question of mechanics but the underlay/= overlay semantics come into picture to keep packet forwarding correctness i= n the networks. Beyond that, what does it map to in SFC architecture, etc. SK2> While I am happy to contribute to the NAT discussion, the SI issue we = are talking does not warrant that - it is much general: SF vs. SFF. I would= prefer as WG, we address the SI even before we get to the NAT part to demo= nstrate SFC with NSH is viable in real-world. Finally, thanks for the SI snippet below. The "MUST" in that is the problem= . Until the WG resolves this, please remove this requirement. It simply doe= s not make sense to mix network forwarding with service delivery - they are= two distinct things. Let implementations make the right decision. Surendra. From: Elzur, Uri [mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:01 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Reinaldo Penno (repenno) = ; Jim Guichard (jguichar) ; sfc@ietf= .org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has [cid:image001.png@01D12117.69E206C0] Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf= .org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating some things from previous= responses.] Keep the separation * between packet forwarding and service delivery * between application and infrastructure * between metadata and forwarding data * etc. Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables SFs to focus on service d= elivery and not service chaining and forwarding complexity, that goes into = the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery a= nd not for packet forwarding, that belongs in SFF. Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF into the service plane wi= thout having to concern themselves about how that affects packet forwarding= in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off do= ing the SFF's job. If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operators' view should be obvi= ous. NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed off the normative langu= age in this regard and is misguided in specifying, for instance, the decrem= ent of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out = the window. Surendra. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) >;= Jim Guichard (jguichar) >; s= fc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Reinaldo It seems like we are arguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about= the security aspect, it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of = clarifying the potential role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. = no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role vs abusi= ng SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the latter= is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egress etc.= Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an "SF= can be trusted for NSH purposes" then it can lead to some simplifications= , I believe SK> I'm also ok leaving status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and= proxy roles. But I do think that making the assumption like you make, that= the issue of the SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simpli= fy our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the NSH SPECIFC securi= ty aspects and this is on-going on the ml Hope this makes my comments a bit clearer Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF." It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_fe5dab2b6e604654a7c81fa902a35852XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Uri,

 

I’ve tried consolidate the crux of your other= comments here to do a single response, please correct me if I misstate any= of your comments/response or if I’m taking them out of context.

 

Uri>>SF are not making forwardi= ng decisions, however they can influence them.

SK2> SI dictates what the next hop is at the SFF.= IOW, this index clearly instructs the SFF where the packet must be sent ne= xt. An SI value of 2 may mean send to a FW or 1 may mean the chain is done = and forward on the underlay, etc.. So, this is not influencing, this is the actual decision - let’s not con= fuse this. Also, this is not random, this is all programmed by the control = plane.

 

Uri>>As to the S= I vs SPI: if the criteria prevent damage to thy neighboring chain, SI decre= ment is not a issue.

SK2> SFF is the one with the steering tables, wh= ich is programmed by the control plane dictating how the packets should be = steered. There is a well formulated structure that control plane manages. If an entity other than SFF wants to decrement, the= n that should be under control planes control to ensure packet forwarding o= n the overlay network is correct. Otherwise you have a wild west. By allowi= ng this, you are removing the distinction between SF and SFF – you might as well collapse them into one. The c= ontrol plane now not only needs to manage the service chains but also the S= Fs - becomes intractable.

 

Uri>> …And= it is an indication of the SF being alve and doing some action which may b= e better option that he SFF blindly decrementing SI

SK2> As for knowing whether SF is alive, you don= ’t need a decrement from the SF, the fact that the SFF is receiving t= he packet from that SF is indication enough. Anything beyond needs to well defined in the context of OAM and not overload forwarding wi= th OAM.

 

Uri>> Clearly some SFs must be trusted e.g. NAT. NAT  is an exam= ple of an SF that is part of the infrastructure.=

SK2> This came up at the open-mic in Yokohama, I= think Kent or someone had some good comments on it. NAT brings up a lot of= questions. And so does routing that is part of many traditional firewalls or load balancers, which Nicolas brought up. As an e= xample, what happens to the overlay when the packet is transformed through = a SF – does it terminate, or is it replaced with a new one or continu= es through it ? What are the implications of each ? What happens to the SPI+SI? It is not a question of mechanic= s but the underlay/overlay semantics come into picture to keep packet forwa= rding correctness in the networks. Beyond that, what does it map to in SFC = architecture, etc.

 

SK2> While I am happy to contribute to the NAT d= iscussion, the SI issue we are talking does not warrant that – it is = much general: SF vs. SFF. I would prefer as WG, we address the SI even before we get to the NAT part to demonstrate SFC with NSH is v= iable in real-world.

 

Finally, thanks for the SI snippet below. The ̶= 0;MUST” in that is the problem. Until the WG resolves this, please re= move this requirement. It simply does not make sense to mix network forwarding with service delivery – they are two distinct thi= ngs. Let implementations make the right decision.

 

Surendra.

 

From: Elzur, Uri [mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com]=
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:01 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) <smkumar@cisco.com>; Reinaldo Pen= no (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <jguicha= r@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has

 

3D"cid:image001.png@01D12117.69E206C0"

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); <= a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org"> sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

 

[Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating s= ome things from previous responses.]

 

Keep the separation

·        between packet forwarding and service deliv= ery

·        between application and infrastructure=

·        between metadata and forwarding data

·        etc.

 

Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables S= Fs to focus on service delivery and not service chaining and forwarding com= plexity, that goes into the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery and not for packet forwa= rding, that belongs in SFF.

 

Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF i= nto the service plane without having to concern themselves about how that a= ffects packet forwarding in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off doing the SFF’s job.<= o:p>

 

If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operat= ors’ view should be obvious.

 

NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed= off the normative language in this regard and is misguided in specifying, = for instance, the decrement of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out the window.

 

Surendra.

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM
To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Reinaldo

 

It seems like we are a= rguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about the security aspect, = it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of clarifying the potenti= al role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role v= s abusing SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the= latter is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egre= ss etc. Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an “SF can be trusted for= NSH purposes”  then it can lead to some simplifications, I beli= eve

SK>

 

I’m also ok leav= ing status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and proxy roles. Bu= t I do think that making the assumption like you make, that the issue of th= e SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simplify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the = NSH SPECIFC security aspects and this is on-going on the ml

 

Hope this makes my com= ments a bit clearer

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

"The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.”

&n= bsp;

It se= ems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH.  I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a = device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. 

 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security require= ments. What new specific NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard = against. Solving device trust issue, IP networks layer issues, transport is= sues, etc seems very much out of scope of this WG.    =

 

Thank= s,

 

&n= bsp;

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com&g= t;
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <r= epenno@cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (j= guichar)" <jguichar@ci= sco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

(reply #3, you may wan= t to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

 <= /span>

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Jim Guichard (jguichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

[Chair = hat off …]

 <= /span>

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

 <= /span>

Jim

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Elzur, Uri" <uri= .elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

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17 Nov 2015 12:15:44 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:15:44 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: Nicolas BOUTHORS , "Elzur, Uri" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? 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X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:15:50 -0000 DQo+PisxIGFsc28gb24geW91ciBvdGhlciBwb2ludCBzdGF0aW5nIHRoYXQgdGhlIFNJIG1vZGlm aWNhdGlvbiBpcyBhbiBpbmRpY2F0aW9uIGZvciB0aGUgU0ZGIHRoYXQgdGhlIFNGIGlzIGFjdGl2 ZS4NCg0KWW91IHNob3VsZCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIHRlbGwgdGhhdCBieSB0aGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IHRo ZSBTRkYgaXMgcmVjZWl2aW5nIHBhY2tldHMgZnJvbSB0aGF0IFNGIGFuZCBkb24ndCBuZWVkIGEg ZGVjcmVtZW50LiBGb3IgZ2V0dGluZyBtb3JlIGluc2lnaHQgaW50byB0aGUgaGVhbHRoIG9mIHRo ZSBTRiwgT0FNIHdvdWxkIGJlIHRoZSByaWdodCB3YXkgdG8gYWRkcmVzcyBpdC4gQWx0ZXJuYXRl bHksIGlmIGlubGluZSBtZXRob2QgaXMgcHJlZmVycmVkLCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgVExWcyB0byBhY2hp ZXZlIHRoYXQuDQoNClN1cmVuZHJhLg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJv bTogc2ZjIFttYWlsdG86c2ZjLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBOaWNvbGFz IEJPVVRIT1JTDQpTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAxNywgMjAxNSAxMjo1MSBBTQ0KVG86 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18:48:50 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (xch-rcd-006.cisco.com [173.37.102.16]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAHImnSW008069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:48:49 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:48:49 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 12:48:49 -0600 From: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , "Elzur, Uri" , "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVa0+xTCDtVR0Ky6Lo8W+YR+Z6YnmKA///PSICAAWeXAP//l8+AgAElYICABAdZgIABacIAgADuawD//7XPgA== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:48:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.131.118.35] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_D270DA0C2E4EAjguicharciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 18:48:56 -0000 --_004_D270DA0C2E4EAjguicharciscocom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D270DA0C2E4EAjguicharciscocom_" --_000_D270DA0C2E4EAjguicharciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Surendra, >Finally, thanks for the SI snippet below. The =93MUST=94 in that is the pr= oblem. Until the WG resolves this, please remove this requirement. It simpl= y does not make sense to mix network forwarding with service delivery =96 >= they are two distinct things. Let implementations make the right decision. Jim> removal of text from a WG document is a decision that the WG needs to = make based on consensus (as determined by the chairs). This issue is not re= solved and consensus must be reached before any change to the text is made. Jim From: Elzur, Uri [mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:01 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) >;= Reinaldo Penno (repenno) >; Ji= m Guichard (jguichar) >; sfc@= ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has [cid:image001.png@01D12117.69E206C0] Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf= .org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating some things from previous= responses.] Keep the separation =B7 between packet forwarding and service delivery =B7 between application and infrastructure =B7 between metadata and forwarding data =B7 etc. Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables SFs to focus on service d= elivery and not service chaining and forwarding complexity, that goes into = the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery a= nd not for packet forwarding, that belongs in SFF. Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF into the service plane wi= thout having to concern themselves about how that affects packet forwarding= in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off do= ing the SFF=92s job. If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operators=92 view should be ob= vious. NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed off the normative langu= age in this regard and is misguided in specifying, for instance, the decrem= ent of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out = the window. Surendra. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) >;= Jim Guichard (jguichar) >; s= fc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Reinaldo It seems like we are arguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about= the security aspect, it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of = clarifying the potential role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. = no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role vs abusi= ng SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the latter= is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egress etc.= Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an =93= SF can be trusted for NSH purposes=94 then it can lead to some simplificat= ions, I believe SK> I=92m also ok leaving status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF a= nd proxy roles. But I do think that making the assumption like you make, th= at the issue of the SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simp= lify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the NSH SPECIFC secu= rity aspects and this is on-going on the ml Hope this makes my comments a bit clearer Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.=94 It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off =85] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things =96 add routes to VRFs that= should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that= force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. Wh= at I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I= need for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from a= n SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect t= o receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I=92d like to surfa= ce this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the d= iscussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF= (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention = may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be= there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a =93Classifier=94 is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Pro= xy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound=85 There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94) C: 949-378-7568 --_000_D270DA0C2E4EAjguicharciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Surendra,
 

>Finally, thanks for the SI snippet below. The = =93MUST=94 in that is the problem. Until the WG resolves this, please remov= e this requirement. It simply does not make sense to mix network forwarding with service delivery =96 >they are two distinct thi= ngs. Let implementations make the right decision.

Jim> removal of text fr= om a WG document is a decision that the WG needs to make based on consensus= (as determined by the chairs). This issue is not resolved and consensus mu= st be reached before any change to the text is made.

&n= bsp;

Jim

From: Elzur, Uri [mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:01 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) <smkumar@cisco.com>; Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <= jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has

 

3D"cid:image001.png@01D12117.69E206C0"

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); <= a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org"> sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

 

[Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating s= ome things from previous responses.]

 

Keep the separation

=B7        between packet forwarding and service d= elivery

=B7        between application and infrastructure<= o:p>

=B7        between metadata and forwarding data

=B7        etc.

 

Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables S= Fs to focus on service delivery and not service chaining and forwarding com= plexity, that goes into the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery and not for packet forwa= rding, that belongs in SFF.

 

Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF i= nto the service plane without having to concern themselves about how that a= ffects packet forwarding in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off doing the SFF=92s job.=

 

If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operat= ors=92 view should be obvious.

 

NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed= off the normative language in this regard and is misguided in specifying, = for instance, the decrement of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out the window.

 

Surendra.

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM
To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Reinaldo

 

It seems like we are a= rguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about the security aspect, = it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of clarifying the potenti= al role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role v= s abusing SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the= latter is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egre= ss etc. Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an =93SF can be trusted for NSH= purposes=94  then it can lead to some simplifications, I believe=

SK>

 

I=92m also ok leaving = status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and proxy roles. But I = do think that making the assumption like you make, that the issue of the SF= being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simplify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the = NSH SPECIFC security aspects and this is on-going on the ml

 

Hope this makes my com= ments a bit clearer

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

"The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.=94

&n= bsp;

It se= ems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH.  I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a = device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. 

 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security require= ments. What new specific NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard = against. Solving device trust issue, IP networks layer issues, transport is= sues, etc seems very much out of scope of this WG.    =

 

Thank= s,

 

&n= bsp;

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com&g= t;
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <r= epenno@cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (j= guichar)" <jguichar@ci= sco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

(reply #3, you may wan= t to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly

 

Thx

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

 <= /span>

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Jim Guichard (jguichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

[Chair = hat off =85]

 <= /span>

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things =96 add routes to VRFs = that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes = that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .= . What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

 <= /span>

Jim

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Elzur, Uri" <uri= .elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I=92d like to surface this issue and hope= fully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Map as= sisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a =93Classifier=94 is incorporated). If not, th= e SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound= =85

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (=93Oo-Ree=94)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wLSbG-45IIGp for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:46:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (Mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.134]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263FE1A8701 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLR-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com (192.168.196.172) by wtl-exchp-1.sandvine.com (192.168.194.178) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:45:59 -0500 Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by blr-exchp-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::6c6d:7108:c63c:9055%14]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 14:46:01 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" , "Elzur, Uri" , "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVZFiGO/1AuG0GyjOiLT/Ut556Y4XQAgAABj4CAAOF7AIAAHe4AgACfQYCABAdYgIABacMAgADuawD//8Q4QA== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:46:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.200.63] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830DAA925wtlexchp2sandvi_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:46:10 -0000 --_004_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830DAA925wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830DAA925wtlexchp2sandvi_" --_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830DAA925wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Surendra, In your comment, SK2> As for knowing whether SF is alive, you don't need a decrement from th= e SF, the fact that the SFF is receiving the packet from that SF is indicat= ion enough. You are making an assumption that it is easy for an SFF to determine where = a packet came from. This may be true for local direct connections, but in o= ther cases would require checking source MAC addresses or source IP address= es (if these can even be trusted). Upon receiving a packet, decide whether = it came from an SF or an SFF in order to decide whether to decrement the SI= or not. As currently defined, with the SF decrementing the index, the SFF can forwa= rd the packet purely based on lookup tables indexed by {SPI,SI}. -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar (smkuma= r) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 1:14 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf= .org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Uri, I've tried consolidate the crux of your other comments here to do a single = response, please correct me if I misstate any of your comments/response or = if I'm taking them out of context. Uri>>SF are not making forwarding decisions, however they can influence the= m. SK2> SI dictates what the next hop is at the SFF. IOW, this index clearly i= nstructs the SFF where the packet must be sent next. An SI value of 2 may m= ean send to a FW or 1 may mean the chain is done and forward on the underla= y, etc.. So, this is not influencing, this is the actual decision - let's n= ot confuse this. Also, this is not random, this is all programmed by the co= ntrol plane. Uri>>As to the SI vs SPI: if the criteria prevent damage to thy neighboring= chain, SI decrement is not a issue. SK2> SFF is the one with the steering tables, which is programmed by the co= ntrol plane dictating how the packets should be steered. There is a well fo= rmulated structure that control plane manages. If an entity other than SFF = wants to decrement, then that should be under control planes control to ens= ure packet forwarding on the overlay network is correct. Otherwise you have= a wild west. By allowing this, you are removing the distinction between SF= and SFF - you might as well collapse them into one. The control plane now = not only needs to manage the service chains but also the SFs - becomes intr= actable. Uri>> ...And it is an indication of the SF being alve and doing some action= which may be better option that he SFF blindly decrementing SI SK2> As for knowing whether SF is alive, you don't need a decrement from th= e SF, the fact that the SFF is receiving the packet from that SF is indicat= ion enough. Anything beyond needs to well defined in the context of OAM and= not overload forwarding with OAM. Uri>> Clearly some SFs must be trusted e.g. NAT. NAT is an example of an S= F that is part of the infrastructure. SK2> This came up at the open-mic in Yokohama, I think Kent or someone had = some good comments on it. NAT brings up a lot of questions. And so does rou= ting that is part of many traditional firewalls or load balancers, which Ni= colas brought up. As an example, what happens to the overlay when the packe= t is transformed through a SF - does it terminate, or is it replaced with a= new one or continues through it ? What are the implications of each ? What= happens to the SPI+SI? It is not a question of mechanics but the underlay/= overlay semantics come into picture to keep packet forwarding correctness i= n the networks. Beyond that, what does it map to in SFC architecture, etc. SK2> While I am happy to contribute to the NAT discussion, the SI issue we = are talking does not warrant that - it is much general: SF vs. SFF. I would= prefer as WG, we address the SI even before we get to the NAT part to demo= nstrate SFC with NSH is viable in real-world. Finally, thanks for the SI snippet below. The "MUST" in that is the problem= . Until the WG resolves this, please remove this requirement. It simply doe= s not make sense to mix network forwarding with service delivery - they are= two distinct things. Let implementations make the right decision. Surendra. From: Elzur, Uri [mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:01 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) >;= Reinaldo Penno (repenno) >; Ji= m Guichard (jguichar) >; sfc@= ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has [cid:image001.png@01D12117.69E206C0] Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf= .org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating some things from previous= responses.] Keep the separation * between packet forwarding and service delivery * between application and infrastructure * between metadata and forwarding data * etc. Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables SFs to focus on service d= elivery and not service chaining and forwarding complexity, that goes into = the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery a= nd not for packet forwarding, that belongs in SFF. Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF into the service plane wi= thout having to concern themselves about how that affects packet forwarding= in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off do= ing the SFF's job. If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operators' view should be obvi= ous. NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed off the normative langu= age in this regard and is misguided in specifying, for instance, the decrem= ent of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out = the window. Surendra. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) >;= Jim Guichard (jguichar) >; s= fc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Reinaldo It seems like we are arguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about= the security aspect, it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of = clarifying the potential role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. = no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role vs abusi= ng SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the latter= is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egress etc.= Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an "SF= can be trusted for NSH purposes" then it can lead to some simplifications= , I believe SK> I'm also ok leaving status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and= proxy roles. But I do think that making the assumption like you make, that= the issue of the SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simpli= fy our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the NSH SPECIFC securi= ty aspects and this is on-going on the ml Hope this makes my comments a bit clearer Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF." It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830DAA925wtlexchp2sandvi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Surendra,

In your comment,<= /o:p>

SK2> As for knowing whether SF is al= ive, you don’t need a decrement from the SF, the fact that the SFF is= receiving the packet from that SF is indication enough.

 

You are making an assu= mption that it is easy for an SFF to determine where a packet came from. Th= is may be true for local direct connections, but in other cases would requi= re checking source MAC addresses or source IP addresses (if these can even be trusted). Upon receiving a packe= t, decide whether it came from an SF or an SFF in order to decide whether t= o decrement the SI or not.

 

As currently defined, = with the SF decrementing the index, the SFF can forward the packet purely b= ased on lookup tables indexed by {SPI,SI}.

 

 

-Dave

 

 

 

From: sfc [mai= lto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar (smkumar)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 1:14 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); s= fc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi Uri,

 

I’ve tried consolidate the crux o= f your other comments here to do a single response, please correct me if I = misstate any of your comments/response or if I’m taking them out of context.

 <= /p>

Uri>>SF are not mak= ing forwarding decisions, however they can influence them.

SK2> SI dictates what the next hop is at the SFF.= IOW, this index clearly instructs the SFF where the packet must be sent ne= xt. An SI value of 2 may mean send to a FW or 1 may mean the chain is done = and forward on the underlay, etc.. So, this is not influencing, this is the actual decision - let’s not con= fuse this. Also, this is not random, this is all programmed by the control = plane.

 <= /p>

Uri>>As to the S= I vs SPI: if the criteria prevent damage to thy neighboring chain, SI decre= ment is not a issue.

SK2> SFF is the one with the steerin= g tables, which is programmed by the control plane dictating how the packet= s should be steered. There is a well formulated structure that control plane manages. If an entity other than SFF wants to decrement, the= n that should be under control planes control to ensure packet forwarding o= n the overlay network is correct. Otherwise you have a wild west. By allowi= ng this, you are removing the distinction between SF and SFF – you might as well collapse them into one. The c= ontrol plane now not only needs to manage the service chains but also the S= Fs - becomes intractable.

 

Uri>> …And= it is an indication of the SF being alve and doing some action which may b= e better option that he SFF blindly decrementing SI

SK2> As for knowing whether SF is al= ive, you don’t need a decrement from the SF, the fact that the SFF is= receiving the packet from that SF is indication enough. Anything beyond needs to well defined in the context of OAM and not overload forwar= ding with OAM.

 <= /p>

Uri>> Clearly some SFs must be trusted e.g. NAT. NAT = ; is an example of an SF that is part of the infrastructure.

SK2> This came up at the open-mic in= Yokohama, I think Kent or someone had some good comments on it. NAT brings= up a lot of questions. And so does routing that is part of many traditional firewalls or load balancers, which Nicolas brought up. As= an example, what happens to the overlay when the packet is transformed thr= ough a SF – does it terminate, or is it replaced with a new one or co= ntinues through it ? What are the implications of each ? What happens to the SPI+SI? It is not a question of mechanic= s but the underlay/overlay semantics come into picture to keep packet forwa= rding correctness in the networks. Beyond that, what does it map to in SFC = architecture, etc.

 

SK2> While I am happy to contribute = to the NAT discussion, the SI issue we are talking does not warrant that &#= 8211; it is much general: SF vs. SFF. I would prefer as WG, we address the SI even before we get to the NAT part to demonstrate SFC with NSH is v= iable in real-world.

 

Finally, thanks for the SI snippet belo= w. The “MUST” in that is the problem. Until the WG resolves thi= s, please remove this requirement. It simply does not make sense to mix network forwarding with service delivery – they are two distinct= things. Let implementations make the right decision.

 

Surendra.

 

From: Elzur, Uri [mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:01 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) <smkumar@cisco.com>; Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <= jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has

 

3D"cid:image001.png@01D12117.69E206C0"

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); <= a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org"> sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

 

[Skipping to the top of this thread and= repeating some things from previous responses.]

 

Keep the separation

· &nb= sp;      between packet forwarding and service delivery

· &nb= sp;      between application and infrastructure

· &nb= sp;      between metadata and forwarding data<= /p>

· &nb= sp;      etc.

 

Simple SFs without forwarding constrain= ts enables SFs to focus on service delivery and not service chaining and fo= rwarding complexity, that goes into the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery and not for packet fo= rwarding, that belongs in SFF.

 

Operators want the flexibility to on-bo= ard any SF into the service plane without having to concern themselves abou= t how that affects packet forwarding in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off doing the SFF’s job.<= o:p>

 

If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separati= on in operators’ view should be obvious.

 

NSH draft until the last couple of revi= sions stayed off the normative language in this regard and is misguided in = specifying, for instance, the decrement of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out the window.

 

Surendra.

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM
To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Reinaldo

 

It seems like we are a= rguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about the security aspect, = it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of clarifying the potenti= al role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role v= s abusing SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the= latter is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egre= ss etc. Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an “SF can be trusted for= NSH purposes”  then it can lead to some simplifications, I beli= eve

SK>

 

I’m also ok leav= ing status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and proxy roles. Bu= t I do think that making the assumption like you make, that the issue of th= e SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simplify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the = NSH SPECIFC security aspects and this is on-going on the ml

 

Hope this makes my com= ments a bit clearer

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

"The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.”

&n= bsp;

It se= ems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH.  I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a = device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. <= /p>

 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security require= ments. What new specific NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard = against. Solving device trust issue, IP networks layer issues, transport is= sues, etc seems very much out of scope of this WG.    =

 

Thank= s,

 

&n= bsp;

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com&g= t;
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <r= epenno@cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (j= guichar)" <jguichar@ci= sco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

(reply #3, you may wan= t to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

 <= /span>

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Jim Guichard (jguichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

[Chair = hat off …]

 <= /span>

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

 <= /span>

Jim

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Elzur, Uri" <uri= .elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

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AbsEfqwSsCcF3vjNT6j/9lEdPnZbtZHbteu9g9oU4yqPNz6v/QR2CdglYJfA91gCM4PqLjusX37e raHYLfqzP1uj3ABn6FPtx49WAmMtqj3/jX51ol9xe9/SW3tyFG83hj/a5SDNarq/RqWf/ErHWoMU 8d4/1V+tDJOvnYP2R7wm7I9ul4BdAt9XCdiTAm/8ZqY1WHlR5z77UlcygxS7db/WxbzxSe0nsEvA LgG7BL7fEpgdUX/dBX3zSb16CmK1/b1VygmAgvL7fdf2u/suJTDWpcbbZ/XJ79uVH71CG7bZkwLf pbi//+ee08xgg2pOfqbPqqKVXvihflEcJnsr5ff/zdnv0C4BuwR+fBL4/wPLFEo+isiDRwAAAABJ RU5ErkJggg== --_004_E8355113905631478EFF04F5AA706E9830DAA925wtlexchp2sandvi_-- From nobody Tue Nov 17 19:56:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DDC1A92BB for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:56:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Diuu_QJO52Mi for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxb2.tigertech.net (mxb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 236ED1A92BA for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A8C52E334F; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:56:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1FEF82E3354; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 19:56:36 -0800 (PST) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Joel Halpern , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F48D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <564BF6F2.7060904@joelhalpern.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 22:56:34 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F48D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 03:56:39 -0000 Let me trying phrasing this differently. A Service Function Chain (SFC) effectively designates a (potentially large) collection of sequences of SFF and SF visitations, any one of which would satisfy the the SFC. An Service Function Path (SFP) designates a subset of the collection designated by the SFC. For some SFPs, in some deployments, that will be a set of 1. For other SFPs (in the same or other deployments) it may be a larger set. For some SFPs in some deployments the SFP may designate the same set of choices as the SFC. Formally, the SFP is a subset of the SFC, but not necessarily a proper subset. By always having control provision in terms of SFPs, the data plane always sees the effects of the constraints that control has placed in selecting the SFP. And because of the definition of SFP, this allows the range of deplooyments the working group has requested. Add SFC information into the provisioning does not increase the capability. It does not, in fact, add any information tha thte forwarding can use. Yours, Joel On 11/17/15 9:27 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Re-, > > Thank you for engaging. > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >> Envoyé : mardi 17 novembre 2015 15:06 >> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) >> Cc : sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. > > [Med] Which one? Given than multiple SFPs may be bound to the same SFC > > Excerpt from RFC7665: > > " Since multiple policies may apply to > different traffic that uses the same SFC, it also follows that there > may be multiple SFPs associated with a single SFC." > > The text talks about policies that are applied to the traffic whiteout any precision where these policies are applied. > > The control system >> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible choices >> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. > > [Med] That's indeed a valid case. The control plane accommodates that case. > >> >> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints, what is >> provisioned has to be the SFP. > > [Med] I would call that RSP. That's more clear. > >> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is isomorphic to >> the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the result is >> an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. > > [Med] This is confusing, Joel. SFP cannot be isomorphic to the SFC as the definition of an SFP is a "constrained version of SFC" (that is clearly mentioned in RFC7665). I'm for more consistency in the use of the notions we are manipulating. > >> >> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the SFC then >> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases that can >> be handled. > > [Med] I'm not sure to see this extra complexity. I do even see benefits in having access to the SFC information allows, e.g., correlate between a service path and a chain in deployments where a path may be shared among multiple chains. > >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> Hi Joel, >> >> Please see inline. >> >> Cheers, >> Med >> >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>> Envoyé : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc issue >>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than the >>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers to " >>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does not >>> make sense to me. >> >> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >> >> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation (depending >> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained >> version of the original SFC. " >> >> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original SFC. >> >> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to the >> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path computation >> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >> >> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC as SFP >> given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained version of the >> original SFC"! >> >> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be visited. >>> >>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the >>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>> >> >> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not >> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a non- >> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>> >>> RFC7665 says the following: >>> >>> " >>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC-enabled >>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which SFF >>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while other >>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>> " >>> >>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>> >>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision required >>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens >>> that information is no more than the service chain itself (without any >>> constraints). >>> >>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose >>> path >>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>> >>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain or >>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. Nevertheless, >>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>> >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoyé : vendredi >>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 À : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed >>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP >> IDs, etc. >>>> >>>> Joel, >>>> >>>> I concur. >>>> >>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of >>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more >>>> likely >>> "policy" >>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent >>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining >>>>> work that >>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within >>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the >>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other >>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by service >> function path IDs. >>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path IDs. >>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are >>> still path IDs. >>>>> >>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with >>>>> chain >>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>> >>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>> Re-, >>>>>> >>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane >>>> architecture document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >>>>>> abstract >>> SFC From nobody Tue Nov 17 23:46:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F7E71B29D9 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 23:46:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J3N6bprbaJQV for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 23:46:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBF3D1B29D7 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2015 23:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0EFC6C0457; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:45:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.66]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id CDB171A005D; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:45:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILMA1.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::95e2:eb4b:3053:fabf%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:45:57 +0100 From: To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Joel Halpern , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHRIbUiWto1LrTpi0m9FGoWf7P3kJ6hWK4A Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:45:57 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F8B0@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F48D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564BF6F2.7060904@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <564BF6F2.7060904@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:46:03 -0000 Hi Joel, all, (The discussion is going in the right direction as it helps to see where is= the disconnect) Please see inline.=20 Cheers, Med=20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 18 novembre 2015 04:57 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) > Cc=A0: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > Objet=A0: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operat= es > on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Let me trying phrasing this differently. > A Service Function Chain (SFC) effectively designates a (potentially > large) collection of sequences of SFF and SF visitations, any one of > which would satisfy the the SFC. >=20 [Med] This is a new definition, Joel.=20 An SFC is no more than "an ordered set of abstract service functions and ordering constraints that must be applied to packets and/or frames and/or flows selected as a result of classification."=20 Instantiating an SFC may lead to a collection of sequences of SFFs/SF, but = still those collections are INSTANTIATIONS of a SINGLE SFC. An instantiatio= n of an SFC may or may not be known in advance. This is deployment-specific= : some may go for a fully distributed scheme, others for centralized, other= s for an hierarchical approach, etc. =20 > An Service Function Path (SFP) designates a subset of the collection > designated by the SFC.=20 [Med] I acknowledge this is subtle, but still you are proposing a new defin= ition. I prefer the one in the data arch RFC: " The SFP provides a level of indirection between the fully abstract notion of service chain as a sequence of abstract service functions to be delivered, and the fully specified notion of exactly which SFF/SFs the packet will visit when it actually traverses the network."=20 BTW, this definition from RFC7665 is odd since it defines SFP by itself: "The service function path is a constrained specification of where packets assigned to a certain service function path must go." For some SFPs, in some deployments, that will be > a set of 1. For other SFPs (in the same or other deployments) it may be > a larger set. For some SFPs in some deployments the SFP may designate > the same set of choices as the SFC. >=20 > Formally, the SFP is a subset of the SFC, but not necessarily a proper > subset. >=20 [Med] Again, this is subtle but I still disagree. I would agree if you said= "the SFP is an SFC instantiation" to be aligned with this text from the da= ta arch RFC:=20 "Since multiple policies may apply to different traffic that uses the same SFC, it also follows that there may be multiple SFPs associated with a single SFC." > By always having control provision in terms of SFPs, the data plane > always sees the effects of the constraints that control has placed in > selecting the SFP. [Med] still works with s/SFPs/"SFCs and/or SFPs". And because of the definition of SFP, this allows > the range of deplooyments the working group has requested. [Med] No problem with that part since SFP is vague enough. >=20 > Add SFC information into the provisioning does not increase the > capability. It does not, in fact, add any information tha thte > forwarding can use. [Med] I does, as it allows to drive the forwarding decision-making process = when the service path computation and selection is fully distributed, when = policies are not enforced at a centralized point but in various points of t= he network (e.g., hierarchical), etc. =20 >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > On 11/17/15 9:27 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > Re-, > > > > Thank you for engaging. > > > > Please see inline. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > >> -----Message d'origine----- > >> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] > >> Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 novembre 2015 15:06 > >> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) > >> Cc : sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > >> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane > operates > >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > >> > >> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. > > > > [Med] Which one? Given than multiple SFPs may be bound to the same SFC > > > > Excerpt from RFC7665: > > > > " Since multiple policies may apply to > > different traffic that uses the same SFC, it also follows that ther= e > > may be multiple SFPs associated with a single SFC." > > > > The text talks about policies that are applied to the traffic whiteout > any precision where these policies are applied. > > > > The control system > >> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible choice= s > >> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. > > > > [Med] That's indeed a valid case. The control plane accommodates that > case. > > > >> > >> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints, wha= t > is > >> provisioned has to be the SFP. > > > > [Med] I would call that RSP. That's more clear. > > > >> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is isomorphi= c > to > >> the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the result > is > >> an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. > > > > [Med] This is confusing, Joel. SFP cannot be isomorphic to the SFC as > the definition of an SFP is a "constrained version of SFC" (that is > clearly mentioned in RFC7665). I'm for more consistency in the use of the > notions we are manipulating. > > > >> > >> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the SFC > then > >> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases that > can > >> be handled. > > > > [Med] I'm not sure to see this extra complexity. I do even see benefits > in having access to the SFC information allows, e.g., correlate between a > service path and a chain in deployments where a path may be shared among > multiple chains. > > > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM > >> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) > >> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > >> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane > operates > >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > >> > >> Hi Joel, > >> > >> Please see inline. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Med > >> > >>> -----Message d'origine----- > >>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] > >>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 > >>> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc issue > >>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > >>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > >>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane > >>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > >>> > >>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than the > >>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers t= o > " > >>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does not > >>> make sense to me. > >> > >> [Med] RFC 7665 says: > >> > >> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation > (depending > >> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained > >> version of the original SFC. " > >> > >> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original SFC. > >> > >> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to the > >> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path computatio= n > >> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? > >> > >> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC as > SFP > >> given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained version of > the > >> original SFC"! > >> > >> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That > >>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be visited. > >>> > >>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the > >>> control requirements draft should be SFP. > >>> > >> > >> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not > >> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a non- > >> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. > >> > >>> Yours, > >>> Joel > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com > >>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM > >>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) > >>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; > >>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane > >>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. > >>> > >>> Hi Paul, > >>> > >>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. > >>> > >>> RFC7665 says the following: > >>> > >>> " > >>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of > >>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC- > enabled > >>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which > SFF > >>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while > other > >>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about > the > >>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The > >>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. > >>> " > >>> > >>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. > >>> > >>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision required > >>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the > >>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happen= s > >>> that information is no more than the service chain itself (without an= y > >>> constraints). > >>> > >>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose > >>> path > >>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. > >>> > >>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain o= r > >>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. Nevertheless= , > >>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Med > >>> > >>>> -----Message d'origine----- > >>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=E9 : vendredi > >>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 =C0 : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed > >>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- > >>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 > >>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP > >> IDs, etc. > >>>> > >>>> Joel, > >>>> > >>>> I concur. > >>>> > >>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of > >>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more > >>>> likely > >>> "policy" > >>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to > >>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent > >>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. > >>>> > >>>> Paul > >>>> > >>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern > >>>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining > >>>>> work that > >>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within > >>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the > >>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other > >>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the > >>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be > >>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by service > >> function path IDs. > >>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path > IDs. > >>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are > >>> still path IDs. > >>>>> > >>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with > >>>>> chain > >>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. > >>>>> > >>>>> Yours, > >>>>> Joel M. Halpern > >>>>> > >>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > >>>>>> Re-, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane > >>>> architecture document. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: > >>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". > >>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. > >>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the > >>>>>> abstract > >>> SFC From nobody Wed Nov 18 00:39:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D9871B2A24 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:38:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id weIbHlfKnj5F for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias244.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC32A1B2A1B for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 00:38:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.201]) by omfeda12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id C745A3B42F7; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:38:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.27]) by omfeda08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id A6849384061; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:38:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM7C.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::8007:17b:c3b4:d68b%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:38:54 +0100 From: To: sfc issue tracker , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Linda Dunbar (linda.dunbar@huawei.com)" , "Andrew G. Malis (agmalis@gmail.com)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) Thread-Index: AQHQ8dhspZs2K5mvM0WjD4/IjUzcZZ6hxKXQ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:38:53 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F8F3@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.4de1a1b2496e7fbeb2cea22aa41193b6@tools.ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <066.4de1a1b2496e7fbeb2cea22aa41193b6@tools.ietf.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.18.80617 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 08:38:59 -0000 RGVhciBXRywNCg0KVW5sZXNzIEknbSBtaXN0YWtlbiwgV2UgZGlkbid0IHJlY2VpdmUgYW55IGZl ZWRiYWNrIGFib3V0IHRoaXMgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBwb2ludC4gDQoNCklNTywgUlNQLXJlbGF0ZWQg Y29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnMgYXJlIHdvcnRoIHRvIGJlIGRpc2N1c3NlZCBpbiB0aGUgY29yZSB0ZXh0 LiANCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1NZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERl wqA6IHNmYyBpc3N1ZSB0cmFja2VyIFttYWlsdG86dHJhYytzZmNAdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmddDQo+ IEVudm95w6nCoDogdmVuZHJlZGkgMTggc2VwdGVtYnJlIDIwMTUgMDg6MDgNCj4gw4DCoDogZHJh ZnQtaWV0Zi1zZmMtY29udHJvbC1wbGFuZUB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZzsgQk9VQ0FEQUlSIE1vaGFt ZWQgSU1UL09MTg0KPiBDY8KgOiBzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gT2JqZXTCoDogW3NmY10gIzE2IChj b250cm9sLXBsYW5lKTogUlNQLXJlbGF0ZWQgQ29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbnMgKEwuDQo+IER1bmJhci9B 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fCAgICAgIE93bmVyOiAgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1zZmMtDQo+IGNvbnRyb2wtDQo+ICAgbW9oYW1lZC5i b3VjYWRhaXJAb3JhbmdlLmNvbSAgICAgICB8ICBwbGFuZUB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZw0KPiAgICAg IFR5cGU6ICBkZWZlY3QgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfCAgICAgU3RhdHVzOiAgbmV3DQo+ICBQ cmlvcml0eTogIG1ham9yICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB8ICBNaWxlc3RvbmU6DQo+IENvbXBv bmVudDogIGNvbnRyb2wtcGxhbmUgICAgICAgICAgICB8ICAgIFZlcnNpb246DQo+ICBTZXZlcml0 eTogIC0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB8ICAgS2V5d29yZHM6DQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0rLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tDQo+IC0NCj4gDQo+IFRpY2tldCBVUkw6IDxodHRwOi8vdHJhYy50b29scy5pZXRmLm9y Zy93Zy9zZmMvdHJhYy90aWNrZXQvMTY+DQo+IHNmYyA8aHR0cDovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL3Nm Yy8+DQoNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 18 02:51:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DBE1B2C27 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 02:51:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: 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tAIApi60008856 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:51:44 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-006.cisco.com (64.101.220.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:51:43 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:51:43 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Joel Halpern Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:51:43 +0000 Message-ID: <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.234.212] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D1D156CC-A6B6-4F39-80E1-BB94F544DEA5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Med Boucadair Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:51:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D1D156CC-A6B6-4F39-80E1-BB94F544DEA5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I am a bit baffled to see this thread again =E2=80=94 it appears the = discussion restarted to continue in circles. Med, I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no need for SFC = identification passed down =E2=80=94 there is no provisioning of SFCs = southbound. (Almost) every instance of =E2=80=9CSFC=E2=80=9D in the control-plane = requirements draft should really say =E2=80=9CSFP=E2=80=9D. There is no = use of talking about SFCs towards the data plane. The relationship = between chains and paths is a policy matter which belongs in the = policy/control itself, but not out of there. This is no different than what I said a few months ago on the same = topic. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern = wrote: >=20 > What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control system = decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible choices = that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >=20 > In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints, = what is provisioned has to be the SFP. > No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is = isomorphic to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And = the result is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >=20 > If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the SFC = then you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases = that can be handled. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com = [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM > To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) > Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; = sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern > Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane = operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >=20 > Hi Joel, >=20 > Please see inline. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc issue >> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>=20 >> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than the >> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers = to " >> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does not >> make sense to me. >=20 > [Med] RFC 7665 says: >=20 > " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation = (depending > upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained > version of the original SFC. " >=20 > in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original SFC. >=20 > What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to the = information that you will provision to an SFF when the path computation = and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >=20 > It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC as = SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained version of = the original SFC"! >=20 > The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be visited. >>=20 >> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the >> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>=20 >=20 > [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not = aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a = non-constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >=20 >> Yours, >> Joel >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>=20 >> Hi Paul, >>=20 >> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>=20 >> RFC7665 says the following: >>=20 >> " >> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same = SFC-enabled >> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which = SFF >> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while = other >> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about = the >> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >> " >>=20 >> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>=20 >> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision required >> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens >> that information is no more than the service chain itself (without = any >> constraints). >>=20 >> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose >> path >> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>=20 >> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain = or >> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. = Nevertheless, >> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>=20 >> Cheers, >> Med >>=20 >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : = vendredi >>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 =C3=80 : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR = Mohamed >>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP = IDs, etc. >>>=20 >>> Joel, >>>=20 >>> I concur. >>>=20 >>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of >>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more >>> likely >> "policy" >>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent >>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>=20 >>> Paul >>>=20 >>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>> >>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining >>>> work that >>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within >>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the >>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other >>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by service = function path IDs. >>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path = IDs. >>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are >> still path IDs. >>>>=20 >>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with >>>> chain >>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>=20 >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>=20 >>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>> Re-, >>>>>=20 >>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane >>> architecture document. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >>>>> abstract >> SFC >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --Apple-Mail=_D1D156CC-A6B6-4F39-80E1-BB94F544DEA5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWTFg/AAoJEIXgpQGOZny9KCUP/RS+VAo9hFFbr2gtXmI888NR TpclhXCeiEoWR0GYp0u1Vwyp1oNgISi+rNi56ExsxTVg4dEFWrM43FTJ9fG+2OEL miNSGw83Ewbu/pdyobpbTZhhErjJtmYRm+/uSxvfyHhZzn+O2lRblsk0OwobW4ES 5i16jogxL4i3DibHzU/R6NAZ1Q8DkAP8U+kJmAFV78zuWC5ILaScnkK+Rozkw0PL f9EI0VPfiyvLS9WotTnuVZc3Da3AkU2PPVOy7g3YIdVAd6ZNcsq2YimuUH+GZhSS NwpC8T0fV6tkoYmACucFp6hP8JYx+S2bLa562l00ewR72u1Bm1eKHWRpOvbN2HUH 6iPmGCh+SlxzcaxhPQ8y7yoWk/mKzhar1RflOPewPybMlBgNtCFoepZtANPLXSJ0 OD1T5Vvo8/iqcq5x8As38KatnIDyDGdThVev18Dp23G+jmgy+H3LZOTG7OstTiWW 4vroeoxOoU8skMAkAaTtn9QWbczQkrCPve86k7HdQSvJbGoGZcfEs7viyK/JoY5O 7hBqKJ9Ms3OdhW1DxKNAoS/vpOvsP9aHxRUFrENvAxAwSDliC3xt3inMVRiQ5Vcp YpzsnpWWY1mh0g+xfdcZ91RRaOiGbP/djmtPFFgx6M+GBT9DdUaLYdJLvXBM9Ze1 WkQAM467YbMYkH899trz =4vEF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D1D156CC-A6B6-4F39-80E1-BB94F544DEA5-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 05:08:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98FB1A21AB for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:08:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hgOcThijZYPV for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:08:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias244.francetelecom.com [80.12.204.244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80B421A2119 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 05:08:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.200]) by omfeda12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 1BE833B42B8; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:08:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.31]) by omfeda07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id E071315805E; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:08:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM22.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::8c90:f4e9:be28:2a1%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:08:32 +0100 From: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdA Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:08:31 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.18.121518 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , Joel Halpern , "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:08:38 -0000 Q2FybG9zLCANCg0KVGhpcyBpcyBhbiBvcGVuIGlzc3VlIGZvciB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0LCBzbyBpdCBp cyBub3JtYWwgdG8gY29udGludWUgZGlzY3Vzc2luZyBpdC4gSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGhvdyB5b3Ug Y2FuIGNvbmNsdWRlIGluIGFkdmFuY2UgdGhhdCB3ZSBhcmUgY2lyY2xpbmcuDQoNCiJzdHJvbmds eSBiZWxpZXZlIiBpcyBub3QgYSB0ZWNobmljYWwgYXJndW1lbnQsIGJ0dy4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0K TWVkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1NZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IENhcmxvcyBQaWdu YXRhcm8gKGNwaWduYXRhKSBbbWFpbHRvOmNwaWduYXRhQGNpc2NvLmNvbV0NCj4gRW52b3nDqcKg OiBtZXJjcmVkaSAxOCBub3ZlbWJyZSAyMDE1IDExOjUyDQo+IMOAwqA6IEpvZWwgSGFscGVybg0K PiBDY8KgOiBCT1VDQURBSVIgTW9oYW1lZCBJTVQvT0xOOyBQYXVsIFF1aW5uIChwYXVscSk7IGRy 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RlBzIGFyZSBwcmVzZW50ZWQgYXMgYSBmb3JtIG9mIGNvbnN0cmFpbmVkIFNGQ3MuDQo+ID4+Pj4+ ICgzKSBTb21lIGRlcGxveW1lbnRzIG1heSBub3QgaW1wb3NlIGFueSBjb25zdHJhaW50IG9uIHRo ZQ0KPiA+Pj4+PiBhYnN0cmFjdA0KPiA+PiBTRkMNCj4gPg0KPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ID4gc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+ IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v c2ZjDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 18 06:03:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BAA1B2DBB for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:03:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:03:45 +0100 From: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Joel Halpern Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYkZVTjntybIUigJGvi7m2/t54/Q+uAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eYCAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAKfuw Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:03:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Med Boucadair Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:03:57 -0000 SEkgQ2FybG9zLCBkZWFyIGFsbCwNCg0KTWF5YmUgaXQgaXMgdGhlIG5hbWluZyBhbmQgdGhlIGV4 dHJlbWUgZ2VuZXJhbGl6YXRpb24gaW4gc29tZSBJRHMgd2hpY2ggcmVvcGVuZWQgdGhlIGRpc2N1 c3Npb24uDQoNCk15IGN1cnJlbnQgKG9idmlvdXMpIHBpY3R1cmUgaXM6DQoNCjEuKSBBIHNlcnZp Y2UgZGVzY3JpYmVkIGJ5IHdoYXQgd2UgY2FsbCBwb2xpY2llcyBtYXkgcmVzdWx0IGluIGEgZ3Jh cGggKFNGRykgYW5kIGJyYW5jaGluZyBjb25kaXRpb25zLg0KDQoyLikgQWxsb3dlZCBzZXJ2aWNl IGNoYWlucyBhcmUgd2Fsa3MgdGhyb3VnaCB0aGF0IGdyYXBoIGZ1bGZpbGxpbmcgdGhlIHBvbGlj eSBydWxlcy4gU0ZHIC0+IFNGQyA9IDE6bi4NCg0KMy4pIEEgdG9wb2xvZ2ljYWwgKGluIHRoZSBz ZW5zZSBvZiBhYnN0cmFjdCkgU0ZDIG1heSBiZSBtYXBwZWQgb250byBhIHNldCBvZiBTRlBzLiBT 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X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5011B2E62 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:34:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 66ltxDKMXA1F for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:34:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13B921B2E59 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:34:43 -0800 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<066.4de1a1b2496e7fbeb2cea22aa41193b6@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F8F3@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:34:21 -0500 Message-ID: To: "BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e010d84e8f127550524d18a68 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Linda Dunbar \(linda.dunbar@huawei.com\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:34:46 -0000 --089e010d84e8f127550524d18a68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m perhaps biased :-), but I agree with Med. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 3:38 AM, wrote: > Dear WG, > > Unless I'm mistaken, We didn't receive any feedback about this discussion > point. > > IMO, RSP-related considerations are worth to be discussed in the core tex= t. > > Cheers, > Med > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : sfc issue tracker [mailto:trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org] > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 18 septembre 2015 08:08 > > =C3=80 : draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; BOUCADAIR Mohamed > IMT/OLN > > Cc : sfc@ietf.org > > Objet : [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. > > Dunbar/A. Malis) > > > > #16: RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) > > > > Discuss what to do with this appendix. > > > > =3D=3D > > Appendix A. RSP-related Considerations > > > > NOTE: This section records some contributions proposed by L. Dunba= r > > and A. Malis, but have not been discussed yet among authors. > > > > A.1. Encoding the Exact SFF-SF-sequence in Data Packets > > > > Encoding the exact RSP in every packet has the benefit and the issu= es > > associated with source routing. This approach may not be optimal > > when the SFP doesn't change very frequently, as in minutes or hours= . > > > > There are contexts that it might not be feasible for the head end > > Classifier to be notified of the changes of SFF-sequence or SFF-SF- > > Sequence for a given SFP because of the time taken for the > > notification and the limited capability of the Classifier nodes. > > > > A.2. Fully Controlled SFF-SF-Sequence for a SFP > > > > This section describes the information that can be exchanged over C= 2 > > interface (Section 3.3.2) when the SFC Control Element explicitly > > passes the steering policies to all SFFs for the SFF-SF-Sequence of= a > > given SFC. In this model, each SFF doesn't need to signal other SF= Fs > > for the SFP. > > > > Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP is "yellow", an example of policy t= o > > "sff-a" is depicted in Figure 2 (for illustration proposes) > > > > Matching | Action > > ----------------------------------------+------------------------- > > SFC ID =3D "yellow" & ingress =3D sffx-port | next-hop: "sf2" & VID > > SFC ID =3D "yellow" & ingress =3D sf2-port | next-hop: "sf3" & VID > > SFC ID =3D "yellow" & ingress =3D sf3-port | next-hop: sff-b > > > > Figure 2: Example of Traffic Steering Policy to a SFF node > > > > The SFF nodes may not be directly adjacent to each other. They can > > be interconnected by tunnels, such as GRE, VxLAN, etc. SFs are > > attached to a SFF node or SFC Proxy node via Ethernet link or other > > link types. Therefore, the steering policies to a SFF node for > > service function chain depends on if the packet comes from previous > > SFF or comes from a specific SF, i.e., the SFC Forwarding Policy > > Table entries have to be ingress port specific. There are multiple > > different steering policies for one flow within one SFF and each se= t > > of steering policies is specific for an ingress port. > > > > The semantics of traffic steering rules can be "Match" and "Action"= , > > similar to the "route" described in [I-D.ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model]. > > The "match" and "action" for distinct ports can be different. The > > matching criteria for SFF can be more sophisticated. For example, > > the matching criteria could be any fields in the data packets: > > > > o Ingress port > > o Destination MAC address > > o Source MAC address > > o VLAN_id, > > o Destination IP address > > o Source IP address > > o Source port number > > o Destination port number > > o DSCP > > o Packet size, etc., or any combination thereof. > > > > A SFF node may not support some of the matching criteria listed > > above. It is important that SFC control plane can retrieve the > > supported matching criteria by SFF nodes. The "Actions" for traffi= c > > steering could be to steer traffic to the attached service function > > or SF instantiations via a specific port. > > > > The "Actions" to SFC Proxy may include a method to map the SFC > > Identifier carried in the packet header to a locally significant li= nk > > identifier, e.g., VLAN-ID, and a method to construct and encapsulat= e > > the SFC header back to the packets when they come back from the > > attached SFs. > > > > This approach does not require using an end-to-end signaling protoc= ol > > among Classier nodes and SFF nodes. However, there may be problems > > encountered if SFF nodes are not updated in the proper order or not > > at the same time. For example, if the SFF "A" and SFF "C" get flow > > steering policies at slightly different times, some packets might n= ot > > be directed to some service functions on a chain. > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > -- > > > -------------------------------------+-----------------------------------= - > > - > > Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc- > > control- > > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com | plane@tools.ietf.org > > Type: defect | Status: new > > Priority: major | Milestone: > > Component: control-plane | Version: > > Severity: - | Keywords: > > > -------------------------------------+-----------------------------------= - > > - > > > > Ticket URL: > > sfc > > --089e010d84e8f127550524d18a68 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I=E2=80=99m perhaps biased :-), but I agree with Med.=C2= =A0

Cheers,
Andy


On Wed, N= ov 18, 2015 at 3:38 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com><= /span> wrote:
Dear WG,

Unless I'm mistaken, We didn't receive any feedback about this disc= ussion point.

IMO, RSP-related considerations are worth to be discussed in the core text.=

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=C2=A0: sfc issue tracker [mailto:trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org]
> Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: vendredi 18 septembre 2015 08:08
> =C3=80=C2=A0: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; BOUCADAIR Mohamed I= MT/OLN
> Cc=C2=A0: sfc@ietf.org
> Objet=C2=A0: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L.=
> Dunbar/A. Malis)
>
> #16: RSP-related Considerations (L.=C2=A0 Dunbar/A.=C2=A0 Malis)
>
>=C2=A0 Discuss what to do with this appendix.
>
>=C2=A0 =3D=3D
>=C2=A0 Appendix A.=C2=A0 RSP-related Considerations
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0NOTE: This section records some contributions propo= sed by L.=C2=A0 Dunbar
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and A.=C2=A0 Malis, but have not been discussed yet= among authors.
>
>=C2=A0 A.1.=C2=A0 Encoding the Exact SFF-SF-sequence in Data Packets >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Encoding the exact RSP in every packet has the bene= fit and the issues
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0associated with source routing.=C2=A0 This approach= may not be optimal
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0when the SFP doesn't change very frequently, as= in minutes or hours.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are contexts that it might not be feasible fo= r the head end
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Classifier to be notified of the changes of SFF-seq= uence or SFF-SF-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sequence for a given SFP because of the time taken = for the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0notification and the limited capability of the Clas= sifier nodes.
>
>=C2=A0 A.2.=C2=A0 Fully Controlled SFF-SF-Sequence for a SFP
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This section describes the information that can be = exchanged over C2
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interface (Section 3.3.2) when the SFC Control Elem= ent explicitly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passes the steering policies to all SFFs for the SF= F-SF-Sequence of a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0given SFC.=C2=A0 In this model, each SFF doesn'= t need to signal other SFFs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for the SFP.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP is "yellow&quo= t;, an example of policy to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"sff-a" is depicted in Figure 2 (for illu= stration proposes)
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Matching=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Action
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0----------------------------------------+----------= ---------------
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SFC ID =3D "yellow" & ingress =3D sff= x-port | next-hop: "sf2" & VID
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SFC ID =3D "yellow" & ingress =3D sf2= -port=C2=A0 | next-hop: "sf3" & VID
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SFC ID =3D "yellow" & ingress =3D sf3= -port=C2=A0 | next-hop: sff-b
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Figure 2: Example of Traffic Steerin= g Policy to a SFF node
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The SFF nodes may not be directly adjacent to each = other.=C2=A0 They can
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be interconnected by tunnels, such as GRE, VxLAN, e= tc.=C2=A0 SFs are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attached to a SFF node or SFC Proxy node via Ethern= et link or other
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0link types.=C2=A0 Therefore, the steering policies = to a SFF node for
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0service function chain depends on if the packet com= es from previous
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SFF or comes from a specific SF, i.e., the SFC Forw= arding Policy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Table entries have to be ingress port specific.=C2= =A0 There are multiple
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different steering policies for one flow within one= SFF and each set
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of steering policies is specific for an ingress por= t.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The semantics of traffic steering rules can be &quo= t;Match" and "Action",
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0similar to the "route" described in [I-D.= ietf-i2rs-rib-info-model].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The "match" and "action" for di= stinct ports can be different.=C2=A0 The
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0matching criteria for SFF can be more sophisticated= .=C2=A0 For example,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the matching criteria could be any fields in the da= ta packets:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Ingress port
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Destination MAC address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Source MAC address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 VLAN_id,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Destination IP address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Source IP address
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Source port number
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Destination port number
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 DSCP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o=C2=A0 Packet size, etc., or any combination there= of.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A SFF node may not support some of the matching cri= teria listed
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0above.=C2=A0 It is important that SFC control plane= can retrieve the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0supported matching criteria by SFF nodes.=C2=A0 The= "Actions" for traffic
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0steering could be to steer traffic to the attached = service function
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or SF instantiations via a specific port.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The "Actions" to SFC Proxy may include a = method to map the SFC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Identifier carried in the packet header to a locall= y significant link
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0identifier, e.g., VLAN-ID, and a method to construc= t and encapsulate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the SFC header back to the packets when they come b= ack from the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attached SFs.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This approach does not require using an end-to-end = signaling protocol
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0among Classier nodes and SFF nodes.=C2=A0 However, = there may be problems
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encountered if SFF nodes are not updated in the pro= per order or not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at the same time.=C2=A0 For example, if the SFF &qu= ot;A" and SFF "C" get flow
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0steering policies at slightly different times, some= packets might not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be directed to some service functions on a chain. >=C2=A0 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> --
> -------------------------------------+--------------------------------= ----
> -
>=C2=A0 Reporter:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Owner:=C2= =A0 draft-ietf-sfc-
> control-
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0mohamed.bo= ucadair@orange.com=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 plane@tools.ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Type:=C2=A0 defect=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Status:=C2=A0 ne= w
>=C2=A0 Priority:=C2=A0 major=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 Milestone:
> Component:=C2=A0 control-plane=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Version:
>=C2=A0 Severity:=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0Keywords:
> -------------------------------------+--------------------------------= ----
> -
>
> Ticket URL: <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/s= fc/trac/ticket/16>
> sfc <http://tools.ietf.org/sfc/>


--089e010d84e8f127550524d18a68-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 06:35:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACBB1B2E5B for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:35:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cIenmMxdtbcu for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60A721B2E6C for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:35:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11871; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447857310; x=1449066910; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=81FZDB50VjzYFYuJeTDjwNZKXP6+XvtkXZb0US9DqaY=; b=daL9bNmwY7PE0J2eEZIc8DTW+tgjunYaWVczqrbF4AfqyZEvPRzxkPxl V82RSZqPNwuzID9ckhScm3SqkNIrbFOIKSKKxtBSim/trGXfes7B90XPO eCD67h9SZAtCUQ2r7rM8s1YxBVnql5LSYnlE8o4eKSpTyIkS4+cy65K3c 0=; X-Files: signature.asc : 841 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0C5AgD4i0xW/4YNJK1egztTbwa+Tw6BZ?= =?us-ascii?q?RcKhW4CgUc4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBAwEBAQEgSwQHBQcEAgEGAg4DAQMBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?nAwICJwsUAwYIAgQOBQ4NiAsIDZB7nTWQPQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?Q8FBIZUghCCbod1L4EVBY0ciS4BglaBYINbhRmBW4RAkjiDcQEfAUOCER0WgUB?= =?us-ascii?q?yhAWBBwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,313,1444694400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="209481981" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 18 Nov 2015 14:35:09 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (xch-rtp-008.cisco.com [64.101.220.148]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAIEZ85n015574 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:35:09 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (64.101.220.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:35:08 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:35:08 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Med Boucadair Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4A= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:35:07 +0000 Message-ID: <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.115.60] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E8D227C4-07DE-439A-8230-B9616155595B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , Joel Halpern , "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:35:15 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E8D227C4-07DE-439A-8230-B9616155595B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Med, > On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:08 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >=20 > Carlos, >=20 > This is an open issue for this draft, so it is normal to continue = discussing it. I don't know how you can conclude in advance that we are = circling. >=20 Discussion is great, Med. But my =E2=80=98we are circling' comment (not = in advanced, but already evident) is because I saw the same questions, = same arguments, and same answers as before. > "strongly believe" is not a technical argument, btw. >=20 Well, I believe so on technical grounds! Most of which have already been = said, so I do not want to contribute to the circular discussion. The control-plane draft talks about =E2=80=9CSFC forwarding=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CSFC data plane=E2=80=9D, and =E2=80=9CSFC IDs=E2=80=9D. The = architecture says that SFC are made of abstract service functions. = There=E2=80=99s no actual forwarding in this abstract conceptual model. The control-plane draft says =E2=80=9CSuppose the SFC ID for this SFP is = "yellow=E2=80=9D,=E2=80=9D, and my point again is that in the data plane = an SFP has an identifier (which identifies the SFP (SFP-ID) and is not = the identifier of something else, it=E2=80=99s not a Topology-ID, it=E2=80= =99s not a SKU, it=E2=80=99s not a URI, it=E2=80=99s not a Family Name, = and not an SFC ID), and the control (and policy) plane can of course = work with SFCs. My $0.02. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >> Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 11:52 >> =C3=80 : Joel Halpern >> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc- >> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; >> sfc@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane = operates >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>=20 >> I am a bit baffled to see this thread again =E2=80=94 it appears the = discussion >> restarted to continue in circles. >>=20 >> Med, >>=20 >> I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no need for SFC >> identification passed down =E2=80=94 there is no provisioning of SFCs = southbound. >>=20 >> (Almost) every instance of =E2=80=9CSFC=E2=80=9D in the control-plane = requirements draft >> should really say =E2=80=9CSFP=E2=80=9D. There is no use of talking = about SFCs towards the >> data plane. The relationship between chains and paths is a policy = matter >> which belongs in the policy/control itself, but not out of there. >>=20 >> This is no different than what I said a few months ago on the same = topic. >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> =E2=80=94 Carlos. >>=20 >>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern = >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control = system >> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible = choices >> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >>>=20 >>> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints, = what >> is provisioned has to be the SFP. >>> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is = isomorphic >> to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the = result >> is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >>>=20 >>> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the SFC = then >> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases = that can >> be handled. >>>=20 >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com = [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >>> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>=20 >>> Hi Joel, >>>=20 >>> Please see inline. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>>=20 >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >>>> =C3=80 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc = issue >>>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>=20 >>>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than = the >>>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers = to >> " >>>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does = not >>>> make sense to me. >>>=20 >>> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >>>=20 >>> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation = (depending >>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained >>> version of the original SFC. " >>>=20 >>> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original = SFC. >>>=20 >>> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to = the >> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path = computation >> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >>>=20 >>> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC = as >> SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained version = of >> the original SFC"! >>>=20 >>> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >>>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be = visited. >>>>=20 >>>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the >>>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not >> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a non- >> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >>>=20 >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Paul, >>>>=20 >>>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>>>=20 >>>> RFC7665 says the following: >>>>=20 >>>> " >>>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same = SFC-enabled >>>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which = SFF >>>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while = other >>>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about = the >>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >>>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>>> " >>>>=20 >>>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>>>=20 >>>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision = required >>>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens >>>> that information is no more than the service chain itself (without = any >>>> constraints). >>>>=20 >>>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose >>>> path >>>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>>>=20 >>>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain = or >>>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. = Nevertheless, >>>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>>>=20 >>>> Cheers, >>>> Med >>>>=20 >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : = vendredi >>>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 =C3=80 : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR = Mohamed >>>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, = SFP >> IDs, etc. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Joel, >>>>>=20 >>>>> I concur. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of >>>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more >>>>> likely >>>> "policy" >>>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent >>>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Paul >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining >>>>>> work that >>>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs = within >>>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the >>>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other >>>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >>>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >>>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by = service >> function path IDs. >>>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path = IDs. >>>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They = are >>>> still path IDs. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with >>>>>> chain >>>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Yours, >>>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>> Re-, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane >>>>> architecture document. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >>>>>>> abstract >>>> SFC >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 --Apple-Mail=_E8D227C4-07DE-439A-8230-B9616155595B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWTIybAAoJEIXgpQGOZny9foQQAJMRroYgDbcfbdi5cijNjRA8 3CfS0kdwA79S68SkWk/P+vrfP9Dp8lCi54yBI5Y5ClIX/tu+MDI3LYCG9WaHH+/D +ReRbhAvx1XTTCzHKIO3KH2wnhzfKQX/801N8y5mSKJSbN54vbMRJe459NBtSJLN nevdnnv3bN88KifQVlXC24ZQoHfydOx/liInPOs8KVrsJD2MrNLpagzbWbDnC2My CYFbmtjP6UCk/+7MVa6y8qTQa+1CLexS/Ft3brQMUzYMe98umFMIF/1PmuCklJuB x00aCibAcIepbAC0Zfh0bBYANC4OlMw8V0NFHpP1MCyQKrirT24BHBkTigrg2d2Q 9/YWRwo/GP2eZpDXGgNcVhAe30bhKGdfq79UT7IWW5lJHreVGd+DlhNId/Jt6qSQ U4KusqcZUSvo1LcQ7V+S9V3oh4Pvb+I7kfxFfQ5NLk063P9wu1gWmxSHXnITLav8 rCGtO8bBexRV9s/rroek8FtIw5Q4DyHlRwYhzCvSg3AGXBsDGGPOwb887rBq2Z35 aL1+rL1D4LJm1b125EnpnsesoU26hw2gUo0jB7HQgWvvkPdCavayBiPOySJ1AFBa JBCx5OfOCJ/ehiYRfBeO6X69D+ZopkaSAcJ4C0xhpStyNglVeqFdGB3ZlVZh+9l7 PeNYaytCsWlNPqfchqw5 =ZMzO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E8D227C4-07DE-439A-8230-B9616155595B-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 06:35:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E03E1B2E6B for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:35:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 75SyB1IrkGhC for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-7.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-7.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.56.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 160BE1B2E5E for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:35:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-7.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.109]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 06:35:11 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Joel Halpern Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAI54gIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwAgIAANaeA//+BgMA= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:35:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Med Boucadair Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:35:17 -0000 SGksIFdhbHRlci4NCg0KT25lIHJhdGlvbmFsZSBiZWhpbmQgdGhlIDE6TiBTRlAtdG8tUlNQIHJl bGF0aW9uc2hpcCB3YXMgdG8gZW5hYmxlICJsYXRlIGJpbmRpbmciIGJ5IHRoZSBTRkYuICAgIFRo dXMsIHRoZXJlIGNvdWxkIGJlIGEgZGVsZWdhdGlvbiBvZiByZXNwb25zaWJpbGl0eSBzdWNoIHRo YXQgY29udHJvbCBwbGFuZSBjaG9zZSBTRlAgKGUuZy4sIEhUVFAtb3B0aW1pemVyLXNpbHZlci1p bnN0YW5jZXMgLS0+IEZpcmV3YWxsLXNpbHZlci1pbnN0YW5jZXMpIGFuZCB0aGVuIGFsbG93IGNs YXNzaWZpZXIgYW5kIFNGRidzIHRvIGF1dG9ub21vdXNseSBmaW5hbGl6ZSB0aGUgdW5pcXVlIFJT UC4gICBVcG9uIGZhaWx1cmUgb2Ygb25lIG9mIHRoZSBlbGVtZW50cyBpbiB0aGUgUlNQLCB0aGUg Y2xhc3NpZmllciBhbmQgU0ZGJ3MgY291bGQgcGVyZm9ybSBsb2NhbCByZXBhaXIgYnkgbW92aW5n 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c2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0K From nobody Wed Nov 18 07:04:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539931B2EAE for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:04:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NVV8NkPma2lm for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79C031B3242 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.3]) by omfedm11.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id CDA933B45A6; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:03:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.61]) by omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 949D14C1C5; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:03:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM7E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b91c:ea2c:ac8a:7462%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:03:58 +0100 From: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:03:58 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.18.142716 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , Joel Halpern , "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:04:06 -0000 Q2FybG9zLCANCg0KVGhlcmUgaXMgbm90IFNGQyBJRCBpbiB0aGUgY29yZSB0ZXh0IG9mIHRoZSBj b250cm9sIHBsYW5lIGRyYWZ0LiANCg0KVGhlIHRleHQgeW91IHF1b3RlZCBpcyBwYXJ0IG9mIGFu IGFwcGVuZGl4IHdpdGggYSBub3RlIHRoYXQgY2xlYXJseSBzdGF0ZXMgdGhpcyBpcyBub3QgZGlz Y3Vzc2VkLiBBIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcgaXNzdWUgcmVjb3JkIGhhcyBiZWVuIHJlY29yZGVkIHRv IHNlZWsgZm9yIG1vcmUgZmVlZGJhY2sgb24gdGhhdCBhcHBlbmRpeC4gDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1l ZA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tTWVzc2FnZSBkJ29yaWdpbmUtLS0tLQ0KPiBEZcKgOiBDYXJsb3MgUGlnbmF0 YXJvIChjcGlnbmF0YSkgW21haWx0bzpjcGlnbmF0YUBjaXNjby5jb21dDQo+IEVudm95w6nCoDog bWVyY3JlZGkgMTggbm92ZW1icmUgMjAxNSAxNTozNQ0KPiDDgMKgOiBCT1VDQURBSVIgTW9oYW1l 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X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e1IsDpDCV74k for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 045DC1B3267 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm09.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id C88F92DC5AA; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:16:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.2]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 9D15435C072; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:16:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e92a:c932:907e:8f06%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:16:06 +0100 From: To: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Joel Halpern Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYkZVTjntybIUigJGvi7m2/t54/Q+uAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eYCAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAKfuwgAAuzXA= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:16:05 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE73@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.18.142716 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:16:11 -0000 SGkgV2FsdGVyLCANCg0KVGhhbmsgeW91IGZvciBzaGFyaW5nIHlvdXIgdmlld3MuIA0KDQpQbGVh c2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZS4gDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tTWVzc2FnZSBkJ29yaWdp bmUtLS0tLQ0KPiBEZcKgOiBIYWVmZm5lciwgV2FsdGVyLCBWb2RhZm9uZSBERSBbbWFpbHRvOndh bHRlci5oYWVmZm5lckB2b2RhZm9uZS5jb21dDQo+IEVudm95w6nCoDogbWVyY3JlZGkgMTggbm92 ZW1icmUgMjAxNSAxNTowNA0KPiDDgMKgOiBDYXJsb3MgUGlnbmF0YXJvIChjcGlnbmF0YSk7IEpv ZWwgSGFscGVybg0KPiBDY8KgOiBzZmMgaXNzdWUgdHJhY2tlcjsgc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnOyBQYXVs IFF1aW5uIChwYXVscSk7IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtc2ZjLQ0KPiBjb250cm9sLXBsYW5lQHRvb2xzLmll 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PiBPbiA5LzE3LzE1IDc6NTMgQU0sIG1vaGFtZWQuYm91Y2FkYWlyQG9yYW5nZS5jb20gd3JvdGU6 DQo+ID4+Pj4+IFJlLSwNCj4gPj4+Pj4NCj4gPj4+Pj4gVGhlIGNvbnRyb2wgZHJhZnQgYXMgaXQg c3RhbmRzIGlzIGNvbXBsaWFudCB3aXRoIHRoZSBkYXRhIHBsYW5lDQo+ID4+PiBhcmNoaXRlY3R1 cmUgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQo+ID4+Pj4+DQo+ID4+Pj4+IEluZGVlZCwgdGhlIGFyY2ggZHJhZnQgYWNr bm93bGVkZ2VzIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmc6DQo+ID4+Pj4+ICgxKSBTRlBzIGFyZSAiYXNzb2NpYXRl ZCB3aXRoIGEgZ2l2ZW4gU0ZDIi4NCj4gPj4+Pj4gKDIpIFNGUHMgYXJlIHByZXNlbnRlZCBhcyBh IGZvcm0gb2YgY29uc3RyYWluZWQgU0ZDcy4NCj4gPj4+Pj4gKDMpIFNvbWUgZGVwbG95bWVudHMg bWF5IG5vdCBpbXBvc2UgYW55IGNvbnN0cmFpbnQgb24gdGhlIGFic3RyYWN0DQo+ID4+IFNGQw0K PiA+DQo+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N Cj4gPiBzZmMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4gc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCg0K From nobody Wed Nov 18 07:19:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2B61B327B for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:19:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4RxMQ-AXUg4Q for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32FF61B325D for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.68]) by opfednr22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 6BDA2201BF; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:19:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.41]) by opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 31D2340057; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:19:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::2cc9:4bac:7b7d:229d%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:19:00 +0100 From: To: Ron Parker , "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Joel Halpern Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAI54gIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwAgIAANaeA//+BgMCAAA0OYA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:18:59 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE88@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:19:06 -0000 SGkgUm9uLCANCg0KUGxlYXNlIHNlZSBpbmxpbmUuIA0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpNZWQNCg0KPiAtLS0t LU1lc3NhZ2UgZCdvcmlnaW5lLS0tLS0NCj4gRGXCoDogUm9uIFBhcmtlciBbbWFpbHRvOlJvbl9Q YXJrZXJAYWZmaXJtZWRuZXR3b3Jrcy5jb21dDQo+IEVudm95w6nCoDogbWVyY3JlZGkgMTggbm92 ZW1icmUgMjAxNSAxNTozNQ0KPiDDgMKgOiBIYWVmZm5lciwgV2FsdGVyLCBWb2RhZm9uZSBERTsg Q2FybG9zIFBpZ25hdGFybyAoY3BpZ25hdGEpOyBKb2VsDQo+IEhhbHBlcm4NCj4gQ2PCoDogc2Zj IGlzc3VlIHRyYWNrZXI7IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgUGF1bCBRdWlubiAocGF1bHEpOyBkcmFmdC1p ZXRmLXNmYy0NCj4gY29udHJvbC1wbGFuZUB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZzsgSm9lbCBNLiBIYWxwZXJu 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i=@cisco.com; l=12970; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447859954; x=1449069554; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=dOdsTj7vjYD404Yf01/qqxW8u//q8E3q1CsycbFss5k=; b=VPOQqQmBdSqGIDl0m+5BquyVOIgnie46WR/QdaEt0b9sRNmERz5gj67e 0gmlsaw44657g1fSEstmPsGmlstZL7bA0poS3igiKiXSs1QRYZb4lqCHz p/fT5C+HXrVejKug8eofyKGPeTJjblUkodpay7oKaddJqKx7P6+ADBUlv g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D8AQAIlkxW/4oNJK1egztTbwa+RgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WUXCoVuAoFJOBQBAQEBAQEBfwuENAEBAQMBAQEBawQHBQcEAgEIEQECAQEBASc?= =?us-ascii?q?HJwsUAwYIAgQOBRuICwgNvw4BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIZUhH6EW?= =?us-ascii?q?YRgBY0ciS4BiBGFGYFbhECSOINxAR8BAUKCER0WgUByhAWBBwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,313,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="209849241" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 18 Nov 2015 15:19:13 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (xch-rtp-008.cisco.com [64.101.220.148]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAIFJDA8027603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:19:13 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-008.cisco.com (64.101.220.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:19:12 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:19:12 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIA Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:19:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.8.151023 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.234.212] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , Joel Halpern , "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:19:20 -0000 Hi, Med, I also referred to other parts of the document, when I wrote: > The control-plane draft talks about =B3SFC forwarding=B2 and =B3SFC data = plane=B2 For example, I am not sure I understand what this means: " o Populate SFC forwarding policy tables of involved SFC data plane=B2 Or at: " o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC-specific traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the existing SFCs." My comment is that those should be =B3SFP" Thanks, =8B Carlos. -----Original Message----- From: Med Boucadair Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:03 AM To: Carlos Pignataro Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , Joel Halpern , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , Joel Halpern Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >Carlos,=20 > >There is not SFC ID in the core text of the control plane draft. > >The text you quoted is part of an appendix with a note that clearly >states this is not discussed. A corresponding issue record has been >recorded to seek for more feedback on that appendix. > >Cheers, >Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 15:35 >> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>Joel >> M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Joel Halpern >> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>operates >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>=20 >> Med, >>=20 >> > On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:08 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >> > >> > Carlos, >> > >> > This is an open issue for this draft, so it is normal to continue >> discussing it. I don't know how you can conclude in advance that we are >> circling. >> > >>=20 >> Discussion is great, Med. But my =8Cwe are circling' comment (not in >> advanced, but already evident) is because I saw the same questions, same >> arguments, and same answers as before. >>=20 >> > "strongly believe" is not a technical argument, btw. >> > >>=20 >> Well, I believe so on technical grounds! Most of which have already been >> said, so I do not want to contribute to the circular discussion. >>=20 >> The control-plane draft talks about =B3SFC forwarding=B2 and =B3SFC data >>plane=B2, >> and =B3SFC IDs=B2. The architecture says that SFC are made of abstract >>service >> functions. There=B9s no actual forwarding in this abstract conceptual >>model. >>=20 >> The control-plane draft says =B3Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP is >> "yellow=B2,=B2, and my point again is that in the data plane an SFP has = an >> identifier (which identifies the SFP (SFP-ID) and is not the identifier >>of >> something else, it=B9s not a Topology-ID, it=B9s not a SKU, it=B9s not a= URI, >> it=B9s not a Family Name, and not an SFC ID), and the control (and polic= y) >> plane can of course work with SFCs. >>=20 >> My $0.02. >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> =8B Carlos. >>=20 >> > Cheers, >> > Med >> > >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> >> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >> >> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 11:52 >> >> =C0 : Joel Halpern >> >> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc- >> >> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; >> >> sfc@ietf.org >> >> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates >> >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> >> >> I am a bit baffled to see this thread again =8B it appears the >>discussion >> >> restarted to continue in circles. >> >> >> >> Med, >> >> >> >> I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no need for SFC >> >> identification passed down =8B there is no provisioning of SFCs >> southbound. >> >> >> >> (Almost) every instance of =B3SFC=B2 in the control-plane requirement= s >> draft >> >> should really say =B3SFP=B2. There is no use of talking about SFCs >>towards >> the >> >> data plane. The relationship between chains and paths is a policy >> matter >> >> which belongs in the policy/control itself, but not out of there. >> >> >> >> This is no different than what I said a few months ago on the same >> topic. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> =8B Carlos. >> >> >> >>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern >> >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control >>system >> >> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible >>choices >> >> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >> >>> >> >>> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints, >> what >> >> is provisioned has to be the SFP. >> >>> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is >> isomorphic >> >> to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the >> result >> >> is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >> >>> >> >>> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the SFC >> then >> >> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases >>that >> can >> >> be handled. >> >>> >> >>> Yours, >> >>> Joel >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >> >>> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >> >>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> >> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >>> >> >>> Hi Joel, >> >>> >> >>> Please see inline. >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> Med >> >>> >> >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >> >>>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >> >>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >> >>>> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc issue >> >>>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> >>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> >>>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> >>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >>>> >> >>>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than >>the >> >>>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers >> to >> >> " >> >>>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does >>not >> >>>> make sense to me. >> >>> >> >>> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >> >>> >> >>> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation >> (depending >> >>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained >> >>> version of the original SFC. " >> >>> >> >>> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original >>SFC. >> >>> >> >>> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to >>the >> >> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path >>computation >> >> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >> >>> >> >>> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC >>as >> >> SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained version >> of >> >> the original SFC"! >> >>> >> >>> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >> >>>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be >>visited. >> >>>> >> >>>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the >> >>>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not >> >> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a non- >> >> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >> >>> >> >>>> Yours, >> >>>> Joel >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> >>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >> >>>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >> >>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> >>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> >>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> >>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi Paul, >> >>>> >> >>>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >> >>>> >> >>>> RFC7665 says the following: >> >>>> >> >>>> " >> >>>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >> >>>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC- >> enabled >> >>>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which >> SFF >> >>>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while >> other >> >>>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about >> the >> >>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >> >>>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >> >>>> " >> >>>> >> >>>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >> >>>> >> >>>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision >>required >> >>>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >> >>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It happens >> >>>> that information is no more than the service chain itself (without >> any >> >>>> constraints). >> >>>> >> >>>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose >> >>>> path >> >>>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >> >>>> >> >>>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain >> or >> >>>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. >> Nevertheless, >> >>>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >> >>>> >> >>>> Cheers, >> >>>> Med >> >>>> >> >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >> >>>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=E9 : vendre= di >> >>>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 =C0 : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed >> >>>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >> >>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >> >>>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, >>SFP >> >> IDs, etc. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Joel, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I concur. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of >> >>>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more >> >>>>> likely >> >>>> "policy" >> >>>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >> >>>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent >> >>>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Paul >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining >> >>>>>> work that >> >>>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs >>within >> >>>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the >> >>>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other >> >>>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >> >>>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >> >>>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by >>service >> >> function path IDs. >> >>>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path >> IDs. >> >>>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They >>are >> >>>> still path IDs. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with >> >>>>>> chain >> >>>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Yours, >> >>>>>> Joel M. Halpern >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >> >>>>>>> Re-, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane >> >>>>> architecture document. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >> >>>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >> >>>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >> >>>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >> >>>>>>> abstract >> >>>> SFC >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> sfc mailing list >> >>> sfc@ietf.org >> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> > > From nobody Wed Nov 18 07:45:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A8B1B3847 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:45:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qzy9Q1CrLPL8 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:45:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.bemta14.messagelabs.com (mail1.bemta14.messagelabs.com [193.109.254.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8DCB1B3844 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 07:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [193.109.255.99] by server-6.bemta-14.messagelabs.com id 5C/EF-16618-1FC9C465; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:44:49 +0000 X-Env-Sender: walter.haeffner@vodafone.com X-Msg-Ref: server-4.tower-48.messagelabs.com!1447861488!1241514!1 X-Originating-IP: [195.232.244.134] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 7.19.2; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 8869 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2015 15:44:48 -0000 Received: from mailout02.vodafone.com (HELO mailout02.vodafone.com) (195.232.244.134) by server-4.tower-48.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 18 Nov 2015 15:44:48 -0000 Received: from mailint02.vodafone.com (mailint02.vodafone.com [195.232.244.199]) by mailout02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3p17k74rrKzbdMb; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:44:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from mailint02.vodafone.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailint02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3p17k73dSwzQsNC; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:44:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC02W.internal.vodafone.com (voexc02w.dc-ratingen.de [145.230.101.22]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailint02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3p17k738QczQsQ3; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:44:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC22W.internal.vodafone.com (145.230.103.127) by VOEXC02W.internal.vodafone.com (145.230.101.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.224.2; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:44:47 +0100 Received: from VOEXM20W.internal.vodafone.com ([169.254.4.47]) by VOEXC22W.internal.vodafone.com ([145.230.103.127]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:44:43 +0100 From: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" To: Ron Parker , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Joel Halpern Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQIWPn8tRwsnj5MP8adgQRF7L4N6YgJc7TupAbUwLEMCFlaQ2gHiu4rTAYeeG0QCX7iR3gJ9wCW8AXj7CFcCBlBttwJ57NueAds4LcsCKRsi6A== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:44:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: exchangemailitem-processed-by-si: Success Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 SI-Deferred-For-Outbound-Conversion: False Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Med Boucadair Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:45:04 -0000 SGkgUm9uLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgcXVpY2sgcmVzcG9uc2UuDQoNCiJTRlBzIGRvLCBp bmRlZWQsIHJlcHJlc2VudCB1bmlxdWUgUlNQcyIgPT0+IGd1ZXNzIHlvdSBtZWFuIDE6biBub3Qg MToxLg0KDQpSZWdhcmRzLA0KV2FsdGVyDQoNCi0tLS0tVXJzcHLDvG5nbGljaGUgTmFjaHJpY2h0 LS0tLS0NClZvbjogUm9uIFBhcmtlciBbbWFpbHRvOlJvbl9QYXJrZXJAYWZmaXJtZWRuZXR3b3Jr cy5jb21dDQpHZXNlbmRldDogTWl0dHdvY2gsIDE4LiBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMDE1IDE1OjM1DQpBbjog SGFlZmZuZXIsIFdhbHRlciwgVm9kYWZvbmUgREU7IENhcmxvcyBQaWduYXRhcm8gKGNwaWduYXRh KTsgSm9lbCBIYWxwZXJuDQpDYzogc2ZjIGlzc3VlIHRyYWNrZXI7IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgUGF1 bCBRdWlubiAocGF1bHEpOyBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXNmYy1jb250cm9sLXBsYW5lQHRvb2xzLmlldGYu 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(xch-aln-018.cisco.com [173.36.7.28]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAIGHidJ013773 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:17:44 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-ALN-018.cisco.com (173.36.7.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:17:44 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:17:44 -0600 From: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hAA= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:17:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> 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[10.98.43.181] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , Joel Halpern , "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 16:17:51 -0000 W0NoYWlyIGhhdCBvZmYg4oCmXQ0KDQpJIGhhdmUgdG8gc2F5IEkgYW0gc3RydWdnbGluZyB0byBz ZWUgdGhlIOKAnGlzc3Vl4oCdIGluIHRoaXMgdGhyZWFkIHRoYXQgbmVlZHMNCnRvIGJlIGFkZHJl c3NlZCBvdGhlciB0aGFuIGNvbmZ1c2lvbiBvdmVyIFNGQyB2cyBTRlAgZGVmaW5pdGlvbjsgZnJv bSBhDQpkYXRhIHBsYW5lIHBlcnNwZWN0aXZlIGl0IGlzICp2ZXJ5KiBjbGVhciB0aGF0IFNGUC9T SSBpZGVudGlmaWVycyBhcmUgdXNlZA0KYXMgdGhlIGxvb2t1cCBrZXkgaW50byBhIGZvcndhcmRp bmcgY29uc3RydWN0IHRoYXQgbWF5IGNvbnRhaW4gMTpuIG51bWJlcg0Kb2YgbmV4dC1ob3BzIChT RkZzLCBTRnMpLiBJbiBzb21lIGNhc2VzIHRoYXQgbG9va3VwIHdpbGwgcG9pbnQgdG8gYSBzaW5n bGUNCm5leHQtaG9wLCBpbiBvdGhlcnMgbXVsdGlwbGUgbmV4dC1ob3BzLiBJbiAqYWxsKiBjYXNl 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IGltcG9zZSBhbnkgY29uc3RyYWludCBvbiB0aGUNCj4+PiA+Pj4+Pj4+IGFic3RyYWN0DQo+Pj4g Pj4+PiBTRkMNCj4+PiA+Pj4NCj4+PiA+Pj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+PiA+Pj4gc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4+ID4+PiBzZmNA aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+PiA+Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9z ZmMNCj4+PiA+DQo+Pg0KPg0KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQo+c2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPnNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3 LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 18 09:04:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E1521A8A51 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:04:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RwrZ2OcDlLZp for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:04:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-8.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-8.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.56.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDF1A1A8965 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-8.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.112]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:04:14 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Joel Halpern Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAI54gIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwAgIAANaeA//+BgMCAAJq2gP//js/w Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:04:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Med Boucadair Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:04:27 -0000 UmVzcG9uZGluZyB0byBNZWQncyBxdWVzdGlvbiBoZXJlLCB0b28uDQoNCk15IHZpZXcgaXMgdGhh dCB0aGUgaGllcmFyY2h5IGlzLCBpbiBnZW5lcmFsLA0KDQpTRkMtLT4oTilTRlAgLS0+KE0pUlNQ DQoNCkNsZWFybHksIGVpdGhlciBOLCBNLCBvciBib3RoIGNvdWxkIGJlIGNvbnN0cmFpbmVkIHRv IGVxdWFsIDEuICAgTGV0J3Mgc2F5IE0gaXMgY29uc3RyYWluZWQgdG8gdmFsdWUgMToNCg0KU0ZD LS0+KE4pU0ZQLS0+UlNQDQoNCkZyb20gYW4gaW50dWl0aW9uIHBlcnNwZWN0aXZlLCB0aGUgU0ZQ IGFuZCBSU1AgY291bGQgYmUgY29sbGFwc2VkLCBzaW5jZSB0aGV5IGFyZSAxOjEgaW4gdGhpcyBj YXNlOg0KDQpTRkMtLT4oTilTRlAgb3IgU0ZDLS0+KE4pUlNQIGFyZSB0d28gZXF1aXZhbGVudCB3 YXlzIHRvIHZpZXcgdGhlIHNhbWUgZWZmZWN0aXZlIHJlbGF0aW9uc2hpcCBpbiB0aGlzIGNvbnN0 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IHNmYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gc2ZjQGll dGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQoNCl9f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpzZmMgbWFpbGlu ZyBsaXN0DQpzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vc2ZjDQo= From nobody Wed Nov 18 09:28:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 026831A8ADF for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:28:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LM8VG7cr8rSC for ; Wed, 18 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(mailint03.vodafone.com [195.232.244.200]) by mailout03.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3p1B1G34fRz17HNQ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:28:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from mailint03.vodafone.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailint03.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3p1B1G1lMHz16Lyx; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:28:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC05W.internal.vodafone.com (voexc05w.dc-ratingen.de [145.230.101.25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailint03.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3p1B1G1XvDz16MTx; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:28:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC24W.internal.vodafone.com (145.230.103.196) by VOEXC05W.internal.vodafone.com (145.230.101.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.224.2; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:28:01 +0100 Received: from VOEXM20W.internal.vodafone.com ([169.254.4.47]) by voexc24w ([145.230.103.196]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:28:01 +0100 From: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" To: Ron Parker , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Joel Halpern Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYkZVTjntybIUigJGvi7m2/t54/Q+uAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eYCAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAKfuwgAAUdICAABGOUIAAGBcAgAAW6IA= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:28:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , Med Boucadair Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:28:11 -0000 SGkgUm9uLA0KDQpJIHRoaW5rLCB3ZSBhcmUgaW4gbGluZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBoaWVyYXJjaHkuIFNG QyAtPiBTRlAgMTpOOyAgIFNGUCAtPiBSU1AgMTpNIChva2F5IG15IE0gaXMgZGlmZmVyZW50IHRv IHlvdXJzIGJlY2F1c2UgeW91IHNheSBhIHNldCBvZiBOIFNGUHMgbWFwcyBvbnRvIGEgc2V0IG9m IE0gUlNQcyBhbmQgSSBzYXkgZWFjaCBTRlAgbWFwcyBvbnRvIE0gU1JQcy4gQnV0IGZpbmFsbHkg b3VyIGNvbmNsdXNpb25zIGFyZSBlcXVpdmFsZW50LikNCg0KV2VsbCwgbWFraW5nIHRoZSBtYXBw aW5ncyAxOjEgaXMgYSB2ZXJ5IHNwZWNpYWwsIHNpbXBsaWZpZWQgIGNhc2UuICBGb3Igc3VyZSwg aW4gcmVhbCBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgU0ZQID0gUlNQIG1heWJlIGFuIG9mdGVuIHNlZW4gY2Fz ZS4gQnV0IHNob3VsZG4ndCB3ZSBoYXZlIGEgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiB3aGljaCBjb3ZlcnMgdGhlIG11 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Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA07E1A01A5 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:50:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.783 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.783 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_32=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_06=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aUwjNW5s2wya for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:50:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 002CF1A01A3 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:50:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAN18644; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:50:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.130) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:50:11 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:50:08 -0800 From: Linda Dunbar To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: question on the wording in draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 Thread-Index: AdEiKY+hv3Hb7xn6Qkqm/lQOpgx+sA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:50:07 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA316C@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.213] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA316Cdfweml701chm_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.564CBA54.02CF, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 85728bc0c05e518f376058ec61893383 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] question on the wording in draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 17:50:17 -0000 --_004_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA316Cdfweml701chm_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA316Cdfweml701chm_" --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA316Cdfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul and Uri, The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: [cid:image001.png@01D121F7.4505ECF0] If an implementation supports MD-Type =3D 0x2, then it is not supporting MD= -Type =3D 0x1. So what does it mean by saying "Must Support"? Can you clarify? Thanks, Linda --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA316Cdfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Paul and Uri,

 

The Section 3.2 of  draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says:=

 

 

 

 

If an implementation supports MD-Type =3D 0x2, then = it is not supporting MD-Type =3D 0x1. So what does it mean by saying "= Must Support"?

 

Can you clarify?

 

Thanks, Linda

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VOEXM20W.internal.vodafone.com ([169.254.4.47]) by VOEXC01W.internal.vodafone.com ([145.230.101.21]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:11:49 +0100 From: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" To: "Andrew G. Malis" , BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN Thread-Topic: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) Thread-Index: AQHQ8dhuVcsfbuHPCUyXPiqk0Lu9RJ6hxKeAgABjUYCAAE1mUA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:11:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.4de1a1b2496e7fbeb2cea22aa41193b6@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F8F3@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C8C844F84E550E43865561FAE104718579DFDA77VOEXM20Winterna_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Linda Dunbar \(linda.dunbar@huawei.com\)" Subject: Re: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:11:56 -0000 --_000_C8C844F84E550E43865561FAE104718579DFDA77VOEXM20Winterna_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWxzbyBhZ3JlZS4gV2FsdGVyDQoNClZvbjogc2ZjIFttYWlsdG86c2ZjLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5v cmddIEltIEF1ZnRyYWcgdm9uIEFuZHJldyBHLiBNYWxpcw0KR2VzZW5kZXQ6IE1pdHR3b2NoLCAx OC4gTm92ZW1iZXIgMjAxNSAxNTozNA0KQW46IEJPVUNBREFJUiBNb2hhbWVkIElNVC9PTE4NCkNj OiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXNmYy1jb250cm9sLXBsYW5lQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnOyBzZmMgaXNzdWUg dHJhY2tlcjsgc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnOyBMaW5kYSBEdW5iYXIgKGxpbmRhLmR1bmJhckBodWF3ZWku Y29tKQ0KQmV0cmVmZjogUmU6IFtzZmNdICMxNiAoY29udHJvbC1wbGFuZSk6IFJTUC1yZWxhdGVk IENvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIChMLiBEdW5iYXIvQS4gTWFsaXMpDQoNCknigJltIHBlcmhhcHMgYmlh c2VkIDotKSwgYnV0IEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBNZWQuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCkFuZHkNCg0KDQpPbiBX 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by server-7.bemta-14.messagelabs.com id DA/C8-28221-742CC465; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:24:07 +0000 X-Env-Sender: walter.haeffner@vodafone.com X-Msg-Ref: server-14.tower-48.messagelabs.com!1447871045!9086453!1 X-Originating-IP: [195.232.244.135] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 7.19.2; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 13403 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2015 18:24:05 -0000 Received: from mailout03.vodafone.com (HELO mailout03.vodafone.com) (195.232.244.135) by server-14.tower-48.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 18 Nov 2015 18:24:05 -0000 Received: from mailint02.vodafone.com (mailint02.vodafone.com [195.232.244.199]) by mailout03.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3p1CFx26FNz17HLl; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:24:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from mailint02.vodafone.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailint02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3p1CFx12r9zQrcT; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:24:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC03W.internal.vodafone.com (voexc03w.dc-ratingen.de [145.230.101.23]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailint02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3p1CFx0b75zQs0t; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:24:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC07W.internal.vodafone.com (145.230.101.27) by VOEXC03W.internal.vodafone.com (145.230.101.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.224.2; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:24:04 +0100 Received: from VOEXM20W.internal.vodafone.com ([169.254.4.47]) by VOEXC07W.internal.vodafone.com ([145.230.101.27]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:24:04 +0100 From: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Joel Halpern , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYkZVTjntybIUigJGvi7m2/t54/Q+uAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eYCAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAAYXAIAA4ewAgAEAEBA= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:24:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F48D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564BF6F2.7060904@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <564BF6F2.7060904@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:24:16 -0000 Hi Joel, You say " A Service Function Chain (SFC) effectively designates a (potentia= lly large) collection of sequences of SFF and SF visitations, any one of wh= ich would satisfy the the SFC". Shouldn't we say <<<< A Service Function Chain (SFC) effectively designates= a (potentially large) collection of sequences of SFF and SF visitations, a= ny one of which MUST satisfy the POLICIES DESCRIBING THE SERVICE >>>>.=20 At the moment your statement reads to me more like (if you allow a dramatic= simplification) a SFC is defined by a SFC. I am sure that's not what you h= ad in mind. Cheers, Walter -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von Joel M. Halpern Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. November 2015 04:57 An: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com; Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue= tracker; sfc@ietf.org Betreff: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates = on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Let me trying phrasing this differently. A Service Function Chain (SFC) effectively designates a (potentially large) collection of sequences of SFF and SF visitations, any one of which = would satisfy the the SFC. An Service Function Path (SFP) designates a subset of the collection design= ated by the SFC. For some SFPs, in some deployments, that will be a set of = 1. For other SFPs (in the same or other deployments) it may be a larger se= t. For some SFPs in some deployments the SFP may designate the same set of= choices as the SFC. Formally, the SFP is a subset of the SFC, but not necessarily a proper subs= et. By always having control provision in terms of SFPs, the data plane always = sees the effects of the constraints that control has placed in selecting th= e SFP. And because of the definition of SFP, this allows the range of depl= ooyments the working group has requested. Add SFC information into the provisioning does not increase the capability.= It does not, in fact, add any information tha thte forwarding can use. Yours, Joel On 11/17/15 9:27 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Re-, > > Thank you for engaging. > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >> Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 novembre 2015 15:06 =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN;= =20 >> Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc issue tracker;=20 >> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane=20 >> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. > > [Med] Which one? Given than multiple SFPs may be bound to the same SFC > > Excerpt from RFC7665: > > " Since multiple policies may apply to > different traffic that uses the same SFC, it also follows that there > may be multiple SFPs associated with a single SFC." > > The text talks about policies that are applied to the traffic whiteout an= y precision where these policies are applied. > > The control system >> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible=20 >> choices that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. > > [Med] That's indeed a valid case. The control plane accommodates that cas= e. > >> >> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints,=20 >> what is provisioned has to be the SFP. > > [Med] I would call that RSP. That's more clear. > >> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is=20 >> isomorphic to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. =20 >> And the result is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. > > [Med] This is confusing, Joel. SFP cannot be isomorphic to the SFC as the= definition of an SFP is a "constrained version of SFC" (that is clearly me= ntioned in RFC7665). I'm for more consistency in the use of the notions we = are manipulating. > >> >> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the SFC=20 >> then you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new=20 >> cases that can be handled. > > [Med] I'm not sure to see this extra complexity. I do even see benefits i= n having access to the SFC information allows, e.g., correlate between a se= rvice path and a chain in deployments where a path may be shared among mult= iple chains. > >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com=20 >> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane=20 >> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> Hi Joel, >> >> Please see inline. >> >> Cheers, >> Med >> >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN= ;=20 >>> Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc issue tracker;=20 >>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane=20 >>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than=20 >>> the service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" refers= to " >>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does=20 >>> not make sense to me. >> >> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >> >> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation (depending >> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a constrained >> version of the original SFC. " >> >> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original SFC. >> >> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to the=20 >> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path=20 >> computation and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >> >> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the SFC=20 >> as SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained=20 >> version of the original SFC"! >> >> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be visited. >>> >>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the=20 >>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>> >> >> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO not=20 >> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a non-=20 >> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane=20 >>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>> Hi Paul, >>> >>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>> >>> RFC7665 says the following: >>> >>> " >>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC-enabl= ed >>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which S= FF >>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while oth= er >>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about t= he >>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>> " >>> >>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>> >>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision=20 >>> required information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It=20 >>> happens that information is no more than the service chain itself=20 >>> (without any constraints). >>> >>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a loose=20 >>> path >>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>> >>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a domain=20 >>> or if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific.=20 >>> Nevertheless, the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>> >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=E9 : vendredi >>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 =C0 : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed=20 >>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-=20 >>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP >> IDs, etc. >>>> >>>> Joel, >>>> >>>> I concur. >>>> >>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of=20 >>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even more=20 >>>> likely >>> "policy" >>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to=20 >>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent=20 >>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern=20 >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining=20 >>>>> work that >>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within=20 >>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the=20 >>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other=20 >>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the=20 >>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be=20 >>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by=20 >>>> service >> function path IDs. >>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such path IDs. >>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They=20 >>>> are >>> still path IDs. >>>>> >>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with=20 >>>>> chain >>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>> >>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>> Re-, >>>>>> >>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane >>>> architecture document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the=20 >>>>>> abstract >>> SFC _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Wed Nov 18 10:40:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 853651A6EF2 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 10:40:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 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(173.37.102.19) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:40:08 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:40:08 -0600 From: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAI54gIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwAgIAANaeA//+BgMCAAJq2gP//js/wgABsh4D//41HgAAAGD2A Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 18:40:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.113.151] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <8969D076302F504FB4B14DB00E3C9D7E@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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11:34:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hBF2flL1hOCe for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:34:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (Mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.134]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293E31A9075 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 11:34:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLR-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com (192.168.196.172) by WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com (192.168.194.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:34:16 -0500 Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by blr-exchp-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::6c6d:7108:c63c:9055%14]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:34:15 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIAgABkLwD//99/YA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:34:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.200.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:34:18 -0000 W3JlZHVjZWQgZGlzdHJpYnV0aW9uIHRvIEppbSAmIHNmYyBsaXN0XQ0KDQpKaW0sDQpJIHRoaW5r IHlvdXIgZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gaXMgaGVscGZ1bC4gQ2FuIHdlIGZpbmQgYSBwbGFjZSBmb3IgdGhp cyBpbiB0aGUgZG9jcz8NCg0KSSBkb24ndCB0aGluayBJIGNhbiB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGl0IHdpdGhv 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rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 18 Nov 2015 20:10:43 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (xch-rcd-006.cisco.com [173.37.102.16]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAIKAhsk032507 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:10:44 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:10:42 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:10:42 -0600 From: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" To: Dave Dolson , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIAgABkLwD//99/YP//7D0A Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:10:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.70.239] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3F96E36D17637E49995473871C260546@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:10:50 -0000 Ii0gYWx0aG91Z2ggdHdvIHBhY2tldHMgaGF2ZSB0aGUgc2FtZSBTUEksIHRoZXkgbWF5IHRyYXZl cnNlIGRpZmZlcmVudA0KUlNQcy7igJ0NCg0KaHVtbW3igKZJIGRvIG5vdCBzZWUgaG93IHRoaXMg Y2FuIGJlIGFjaGlldmVkIHRvZGF5Lg0KDQpJIGtub3cgeW91IGNhbiBjbGFzc2lmeSBvbiA1LXR1 cGxlIG9yIG90aGVycywgYnV0IHdoYXQgaXMgdGhlIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRvDQphY2hpZXZlIHdoYXQg 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bmcgbGlzdA0KPj5zZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCj4NCj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXw0KPnNmYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5zZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+c2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPnNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0K Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQoNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 18 12:15:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FBD1ACE8C for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:15:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mjwZLpJ5HaaV for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490841ACEC9 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3979A24D4D4; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:15:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 89D372404CF; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:15:43 -0800 (PST) To: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , Dave Dolson , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <564CDC6E.5070606@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:15:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:15:47 -0000 What the working group asked was that the archtiecture and protocol support this option. There are multiple ways that an SFF supporting multiple RSP per SFP could be implemented. My current understanding is that we do not plan to mandate a technique. All the approaches I know of require that the SFF look at some additional information beyond the SFP-ID and SFP-Index. Yours, Joel On 11/18/15 3:10 PM, Reinaldo Penno (repenno) wrote: > "- although two packets have the same SPI, they may traverse different > RSPs.†> > hummm…I do not see how this can be achieved today. > > I know you can classify on 5-tuple or others, but what is the solution to > achieve what you say above within the confines of NSH? Where is the ID > that will allow you to demux between two packets that have the same SP but > traverse different RSPs. > > On 11/18/15, 11:34 AM, "sfc on behalf of Dave Dolson" > wrote: > >> [reduced distribution to Jim & sfc list] >> >> Jim, >> I think your description is helpful. Can we find a place for this in the >> docs? >> >> I don't think I can understand it without referring to the concrete NSH, >> however. >> >> >> If I understand correctly, the following are true: >> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are the same, they are on the same SFP. >> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are different, they are on different SFPs. >> - although two packets have the same SPI, they may traverse different >> RSPs. >> >> - when thinking of the data-plane and south-bound interfaces C1 thru C4, >> the SFC concept doesn't exist. >> (SFC is just a north-interface concept like, "chain A provides a >> firewall and a NAT") >> >> Have I got it right? >> >> >> I also think the following *analogy* with routing can be drawn: >> SFC <--> destination host name >> SFP <--> destination IP address >> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >> >> >> -Dave >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Guichard >> (jguichar) >> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:18 AM >> To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> Cc: sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Paul Quinn (paulq); >> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel Halpern; Joel M. Halpern >> Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> [Chair hat off …] >> >> I have to say I am struggling to see the “issue†in this thread that needs >> to be addressed other than confusion over SFC vs SFP definition; from a >> data plane perspective it is *very* clear that SFP/SI identifiers are used >> as the lookup key into a forwarding construct that may contain 1:n number >> of next-hops (SFFs, SFs). In some cases that lookup will point to a single >> next-hop, in others multiple next-hops. In *all* cases this has absolutely >> nothing to do with the SFC as each representation of that SFC is uniquely >> identified by an SFP-id. >> >> Jim >> >> On 11/18/15, 10:19 AM, "sfc on behalf of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, Med, >>> >>> I also referred to other parts of the document, when I wrote: >>> >>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>> plane² >>> >>> >>> For example, I am not sure I understand what this means: >>> >>> " o Populate SFC forwarding policy tables of involved SFC data plane² >>> >>> >>> Or at: >>> " o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC-specific >>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every >>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the existing >>> SFCs." >>> >>> >>> My comment is that those should be ³SFP" >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> ‹ Carlos. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Med Boucadair >>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:03 AM >>> To: Carlos Pignataro >>> Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , >>> "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" >>> , Joel Halpern >>> , sfc issue tracker , >>> "sfc@ietf.org" , Joel Halpern >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>> operates >>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>>> Carlos, >>>> >>>> There is not SFC ID in the core text of the control plane draft. >>>> >>>> The text you quoted is part of an appendix with a note that clearly >>>> states this is not discussed. A corresponding issue record has been >>>> recorded to seek for more feedback on that appendix. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Med >>>> >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 15:35 >>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>> Joel >>>>> M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Joel Halpern >>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>> operates >>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Med, >>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:08 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is an open issue for this draft, so it is normal to continue >>>>> discussing it. I don't know how you can conclude in advance that we >>>>> are >>>>> circling. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Discussion is great, Med. But my Œwe are circling' comment (not in >>>>> advanced, but already evident) is because I saw the same questions, >>>>> same >>>>> arguments, and same answers as before. >>>>> >>>>>> "strongly believe" is not a technical argument, btw. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well, I believe so on technical grounds! Most of which have already >>>>> been >>>>> said, so I do not want to contribute to the circular discussion. >>>>> >>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>> plane², >>>>> and ³SFC IDs². The architecture says that SFC are made of abstract >>>>> service >>>>> functions. There¹s no actual forwarding in this abstract conceptual >>>>> model. >>>>> >>>>> The control-plane draft says ³Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP is >>>>> "yellow²,², and my point again is that in the data plane an SFP has an >>>>> identifier (which identifies the SFP (SFP-ID) and is not the >>>>> identifier >>>>> of >>>>> something else, it¹s not a Topology-ID, it¹s not a SKU, it¹s not a >>>>> URI, >>>>> it¹s not a Family Name, and not an SFC ID), and the control (and >>>>> policy) >>>>> plane can of course work with SFCs. >>>>> >>>>> My $0.02. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Med >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 11:52 >>>>>>> À : Joel Halpern >>>>>>> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc- >>>>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>> operates >>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am a bit baffled to see this thread again ‹ it appears the >>>>> discussion >>>>>>> restarted to continue in circles. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no need for SFC >>>>>>> identification passed down ‹ there is no provisioning of SFCs >>>>> southbound. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Almost) every instance of ³SFC² in the control-plane requirements >>>>> draft >>>>>>> should really say ³SFP². There is no use of talking about SFCs >>>>> towards >>>>> the >>>>>>> data plane. The relationship between chains and paths is a policy >>>>> matter >>>>>>> which belongs in the policy/control itself, but not out of there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is no different than what I said a few months ago on the same >>>>> topic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern >>>>> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control >>>>> system >>>>>>> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible >>>>> choices >>>>>>> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful constraints, >>>>> what >>>>>>> is provisioned has to be the SFP. >>>>>>>> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is >>>>> isomorphic >>>>>>> to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the >>>>> result >>>>>>> is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the >>>>> SFC >>>>> then >>>>>>> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases >>>>> that >>>>> can >>>>>>> be handled. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >>>>>>>> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; >>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >>>>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc issue >>>>>>>>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more than >>>>> the >>>>>>>>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" >>>>> refers >>>>> to >>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) Does >>>>> not >>>>>>>>> make sense to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation >>>>> (depending >>>>>>>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a >>>>> constrained >>>>>>>> version of the original SFC. " >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the original >>>>> SFC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or to >>>>> the >>>>>>> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path >>>>> computation >>>>>>> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the >>>>> SFC >>>>> as >>>>>>> SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained >>>>> version >>>>> of >>>>>>> the original SFC"! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >>>>>>>>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be >>>>> visited. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in the >>>>>>>>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO >>>>> not >>>>>>> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a >>>>> non- >>>>>>> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; >>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Paul, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> RFC7665 says the following: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>>>>>>>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC- >>>>> enabled >>>>>>>>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly >>>>> which >>>>> SFF >>>>>>>>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while >>>>> other >>>>>>>>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions >>>>> about >>>>> the >>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >>>>>>>>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision >>>>> required >>>>>>>>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It >>>>> happens >>>>>>>>> that information is no more than the service chain itself >>>>> (without >>>>> any >>>>>>>>> constraints). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a >>>>> loose >>>>>>>>> path >>>>>>>>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a >>>>> domain >>>>> or >>>>>>>>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. >>>>> Nevertheless, >>>>>>>>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoyé : >>>>> vendredi >>>>>>>>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 À : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed >>>>>>>>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>>>>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>>>>>>>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, >>>>> SFP >>>>>>> IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Joel, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I concur. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship of >>>>>>>>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even >>>>> more >>>>>>>>>> likely >>>>>>>>> "policy" >>>>>>>>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>>>>>>>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's consistent >>>>>>>>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining >>>>>>>>>>> work that >>>>>>>>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs >>>>> within >>>>>>>>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements >>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >>>>>>>>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >>>>>>>>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by >>>>> service >>>>>>> function path IDs. >>>>>>>>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such >>>>> path >>>>> IDs. >>>>>>>>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They >>>>> are >>>>>>>>> still path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work >>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>> chain >>>>>>>>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Re-, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data >>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>> architecture document. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>>>>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>>>>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >>>>>>>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Wed Nov 18 12:20:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44701AD06E for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:20:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.785 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JFgZ4yaKlwhY for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E21871AD0C2 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:20:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEH53436; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:20:23 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.72) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:20:23 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml702-chm ([10.193.5.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:20:16 -0800 From: Linda Dunbar To: "Andrew G. Malis" , BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN Thread-Topic: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) Thread-Index: AQHQ8dhspZs2K5mvM0WjD4/IjUzcZZ6hxKXQgAD6M4D//9pgoA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:20:16 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA32C3@dfweml701-chm> References: <066.4de1a1b2496e7fbeb2cea22aa41193b6@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F8F3@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.213] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA32C3dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.564CDD88.00E0, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 4bd7adaae00518e9af29f532b52a0e77 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. 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+0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (xch-aln-008.cisco.com [173.36.7.18]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAIKLamd008201 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:21:36 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com (173.37.102.19) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:21:35 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) by XCH-RCD-009.cisco.com ([173.37.102.19]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:21:35 -0600 From: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Dave Dolson , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIAgABkLwD//99/YP//7D0AgACHhAD//3uFAA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:21:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564CDC6E.5070606@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <564CDC6E.5070606@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.70.239] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <202A20324550D54EAE15F09C94F69CEA@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:21:42 -0000 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+Pj4gc2ZjIG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdA0KPj4+PiBzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCj4+Pg0KPj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+Pj4gc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4+IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9y Zw0KPj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQo+Pj4gX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+PiBzZmMgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQo+Pj4gc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCj4+DQo+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPj4gc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0KPj4NCg0K From nobody Wed Nov 18 12:26:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E122A1B29C1 for ; Wed, 18 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Dave Dolson To: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIAgABkLwD//99/YP//7D0A///bIQA= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:26:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.200.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:26:04 -0000 SSdtIHRoaW5raW5nIG9mIGEgbG9hZC1iYWxhbmNpbmcgb3IgZmFpbC1vdmVyIHNvbHV0aW9uLCBp biB3aGljaCBhbiBTRkYgY2FuIGNob29zZSBmcm9tIG9uZSBvciBtb3JlIFNGIGluc3RhbmNlcyBm 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dGYub3JnDQo+Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQo+DQo+ X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5zZmMgbWFp bGluZyBsaXN0DQo+c2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fXw0KPnNmYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5zZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0KDQo= From nobody Wed Nov 18 12:29:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125B41B2A59 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:29:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jsq5_u-J8bbG for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-4.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-4.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.22.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95E781B2A4C for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:29:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-4.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:29:51 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: Dave Dolson , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAI54gIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwAgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgQAIAABEEAgAAQWwCAADbogP//iUMQ Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:29:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:29:55 -0000 RGF2ZSwNCg0KSSBzZWUgaXQgYXMgeW91IGRvLg0KDQpUaGFua3MuDQoNCiAgIFJvbg0KDQoNCi0t LS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBzZmMgW21haWx0bzpzZmMtYm91bmNlc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIERhdmUgRG9sc29uDQpTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE5vdmVt YmVyIDE4LCAyMDE1IDI6MzQgUE0NClRvOiBKaW0gR3VpY2hhcmQgKGpndWljaGFyKSA8amd1aWNo YXJAY2lzY28uY29tPg0KQ2M6IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtzZmNdICMxNSAo Y29udHJvbC1wbGFuZSk6IFdoZXRoZXIgdGhlIGNvbnRyb2wgcGxhbmUgb3BlcmF0ZXMgb24gU0ZD IElEcywgU0ZQIElEcywgZXRjLg0KDQpbcmVkdWNlZCBkaXN0cmlidXRpb24gdG8gSmltICYgc2Zj IGxpc3RdDQoNCkppbSwNCkkgdGhpbmsgeW91ciBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBpcyBoZWxwZnVsLiBDYW4g 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DQo+Pj4gPg0KPj4NCj4NCj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXw0KPnNmYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5zZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0Kc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0Kc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQpo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCnNmYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCnNmY0Bp ZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 18 12:38:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC2151B2BE4 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:38:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, 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+0100 Received: from VOEXM20W.internal.vodafone.com ([169.254.4.47]) by voexc15w.internal.vodafone.com ([145.230.101.17]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:37:52 +0100 From: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" To: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYkZVTjntybIUigJGvi7m2/t54/Q+uAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eYCAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjiAgAAYM4CAAAgPAIAABEIAgAAQWgCAADbogIAACi8AgAABZgCAAAGlgIAAFBYA Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:37:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564CDC6E.5070606@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:38:10 -0000 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X-Originating-IP: [195.232.244.133] X-StarScan-Received: X-StarScan-Version: 7.19.2; banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 27597 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2015 20:50:19 -0000 Received: from mailout01.vodafone.com (HELO mailout01.vodafone.com) (195.232.244.133) by server-6.tower-184.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP; 18 Nov 2015 20:50:19 -0000 Received: from mailint02.vodafone.com (mailint02.vodafone.com [195.232.244.199]) by mailout01.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3p1GVg4mf1z1yBS; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:50:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from mailint02.vodafone.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailint02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3p1GVg0lxNzQppn; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:50:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXC04W.internal.vodafone.com (voexc04w.dc-ratingen.de [145.230.101.24]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailint02.vodafone.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3p1GVg0NFSzQnHd; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:50:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from VOEXM20W.internal.vodafone.com ([169.254.4.47]) by VOEXC04W.internal.vodafone.com ([145.230.101.24]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:50:18 +0100 From: "Haeffner, Walter, Vodafone DE" To: Dave Dolson Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8IYkZVTjntybIUigJGvi7m2/t54/Q+uAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eYCAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjiAgAAYM4CAAAgPAIAABEIAgAAQWgCAADbogIAACi8AgAAESICAABQ8MA== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:50:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 20:50:27 -0000 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aXN0DQo+c2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9zZmMNCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N CnNmYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCnNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCg== From nobody Wed Nov 18 13:48:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03B571B2FD5 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:48:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.785 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vcR7pIxC_Yo1 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:48:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E84A21B2FD3 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAN31379; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:48:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML703-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.130) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:48:23 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:48:19 -0800 From: Linda Dunbar To: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , "Elzur, Uri" Thread-Topic: more questions to draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: what is the "Service Policy Section"? Thread-Index: AdEiStXbhsToukVSRwCtvCpWbIkhhw== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:48:18 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3340@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.213] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3340dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090202.564CF228.0070, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 60e244a3a64a39be5efbc4bc1eaec31d Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] more questions to draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: what is the "Service Policy Section"? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:48:33 -0000 --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3340dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul and Uri, A few more questions for draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: - What does "Location" mean in the Service Path Header definition? - Section 4 (NSH Actions) Bullet 4 has "Service Policy Section" des= cribed as "Service Function instances derive policy selection" . Then, I i= nterpret it as for selecting which instantiation for the SF. But then it go= es on to describe "Deny", "permit", seems to describe the internal policy f= or the SF . Internal policies to SF is much more than "deny" or "permit". = You have WAN Optimization SF, the Caching SF, the LB SFs, etc. It is beyond= the scope of SFC to define policies to SFs. - Are the NH (Next Hop? ) in Figure 9~12 carried by NSH? Or are the= y installed by out-of-band control messages? - Figure 8 shows that SFF can remove NSH but not Insert. Is it inten= ded? If yes, why SFF only removes NSH but not insert? Thanks, Linda --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3340dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Paul and Uri,

 

A few more questions for draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01:=

 

-     &= nbsp;  What does “Location” mean in the Servic= e Path Header definition?

 

-     &= nbsp;  Section 4 (NSH Actions) Bullet 4  has “S= ervice Policy Section” described as  “Service Function ins= tances derive policy selection” . Then, I interpret it as for selecti= ng which instantiation for the SF. But then it goes on to describe “Deny”, “permit”, seems to describe the internal p= olicy for the SF . Internal policies to SF is much more than “deny= 221; or “permit”.  You have WAN Optimization SF, the Cachi= ng SF, the LB SFs, etc. It is beyond the scope of SFC to define policies to= SFs.

 

 

-     &= nbsp;  Are the NH (Next Hop? ) in Figure 9~12 carried by N= SH?  Or are they installed by out-of-band control messages?

 

 

-     &= nbsp;  Figure 8 shows that SFF can remove NSH but not Inse= rt. Is it intended? If yes, why SFF only removes NSH but not insert?

 

 

Thanks, Linda

--_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3340dfweml701chm_-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 13:53:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C6EA1B2F86 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:53:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NycJcAHAU3Ye for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85B871B2EF1 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:53:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEH58350; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:53:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.72) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:53:44 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml702-chm ([10.193.5.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:53:35 -0800 From: Linda Dunbar To: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , "Elzur, Uri" Thread-Topic: more questions to draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: what is the "Service Policy Section"? Thread-Index: AdEiS5LrhsToukVSRwCtvCpWbIkhhw== X-CallingTelephoneNumber: IPM.Note X-VoiceMessageDuration: 1 X-FaxNumberOfPages: 0 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:53:35 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3352@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.213] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.564CF36A.0039, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 840480bd34cb72789f98f1a38937660f Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Recall: more questions to draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: what is the "Service Policy Section"? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:53:50 -0000 Linda Dunbar would like to recall the message, "more questions to draft-iet= f-sfc-nsf-01: what is the "Service Policy Section"? ".= From nobody Wed Nov 18 13:54:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 484591B2FE8 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:54:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.785 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DgiK6fB4YAmx for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1999B1B2EF1 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:54:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEH58381; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:54:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML702-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.72) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:54:15 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml702-chm ([10.193.5.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 13:54:05 -0800 From: Linda Dunbar To: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , "Elzur, Uri" Thread-Topic: more questions to draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: what is the "Service Policy Selection"? Thread-Index: AdEiStXbhsToukVSRwCtvCpWbIkhhw== Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:54:04 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3357@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.213] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3357dfweml701chm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090204.564CF388.0014, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 80f1351b32c23198cccfb8a27a3b1b55 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] more questions to draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: what is the "Service Policy Selection"? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 21:54:21 -0000 --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3357dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul and Uri, A few more questions for draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: - What does "Location" mean in the Service Path Header definition? - Section 4 (NSH Actions) Bullet 4 has "Service Policy Selection" d= escribed as "Service Function instances derive policy selection" . Then, I= interpret it as for selecting which instantiation for the SF. But then it = goes on to describe "Deny", "permit", seems to describe the internal policy= for the SF . Internal policies to SF is much more than "deny" or "permit".= You have WAN Optimization SF, the Caching SF, the LB SFs, etc. It is beyo= nd the scope of SFC to define policies to SFs. - Are the NH (Next Hop? ) in Figure 9~12 carried by NSH? Or are the= y installed by out-of-band control messages? - Figure 8 shows that SFF can remove NSH but not Insert. Is it inten= ded? If yes, why SFF only removes NSH but not insert? Thanks, Linda --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3357dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Paul and Uri,

 

A few more questions for draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01:=

 

-     &= nbsp;  What does “Location” mean in the Servic= e Path Header definition?

 

-     &= nbsp;  Section 4 (NSH Actions) Bullet 4  has “S= ervice Policy Selection” described as  “Service Function i= nstances derive policy selection” . Then, I interpret it as for selec= ting which instantiation for the SF. But then it goes on to describe “Deny”, “permit”, seems to describe the internal p= olicy for the SF . Internal policies to SF is much more than “deny= 221; or “permit”.  You have WAN Optimization SF, the Cachi= ng SF, the LB SFs, etc. It is beyond the scope of SFC to define policies to= SFs.

 

 

-     &= nbsp;  Are the NH (Next Hop? ) in Figure 9~12 carried by N= SH?  Or are they installed by out-of-band control messages?

 

 

-     &= nbsp;  Figure 8 shows that SFF can remove NSH but not Inse= rt. Is it intended? If yes, why SFF only removes NSH but not insert?

 

 

Thanks, Linda

--_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3357dfweml701chm_-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 15:42:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DE41B3900 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:42:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.785 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1K9KVgFJXdA for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41E4A1B38FD for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:42:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEH64161; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:42:24 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DFWEML706-CHM.china.huawei.com (10.193.5.225) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:42:24 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml706-chm ([10.193.5.225]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:42:20 -0800 From: Linda Dunbar To: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , "Elzur, Uri" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type = 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=0x1" as " SHOULD" Thread-Index: AdEiKY+hv3Hb7xn6Qkqm/lQOpgx+sAALiW6Q Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:42:19 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3413@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.213] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3413dfweml701chm_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020204.564D0CE1.00F9, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 4268c6a91b5ac3b42003c3221933bc8b Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type = 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=0x1" as " SHOULD" X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:42:32 -0000 --_004_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3413dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3413dfweml701chm_" --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3413dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul and Uri, The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: [cid:image001.png@01D12226.FDF81290] As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonab= le approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as t= he MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes cont= ext header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a "SH= OULD" support. Let's face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won't need the all 1= 6 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation). Linda --_000_4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3413dfweml701chm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Paul and Uri,

 

The Section 3.2 of  draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 sa= ys:

 

 

 

As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by = the draft, a more reasonable approach is having the minimum common part (i.= e. the first 8 bytes) as the MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 contex= t header (or 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a “SHOULD&#= 8221; support.

 

Let’s face it, the majority of SFC deployme= nt probably won’t need the all 16 bytes "context header" (w= hich has higher chance of packet fragmentation).

 

 

Linda

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23:58:44 +0000 Received: from DFWEML701-CHM.china.huawei.com ([10.193.5.50]) by dfweml703-chm ([10.193.5.130]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:58:34 -0800 From: Linda Dunbar To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "sfc issue tracker" , "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Andrew G. Malis (agmalis@gmail.com)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) Thread-Index: AQHQ8dhspZs2K5mvM0WjD4/IjUzcZZ6hxKXQgACXBtA= Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:58:34 +0000 Message-ID: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA34A6@dfweml701-chm> References: <066.4de1a1b2496e7fbeb2cea22aa41193b6@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F8F3@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F8F3@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.192.11.213] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020201.564D10B5.00EA, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 4bd7adaae00518e9af29f532b52a0e77 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:58:51 -0000 TXkgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgYXJlIGluc2VydGVkIGJlbG93Og0KDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVz c2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBtb2hhbWVkLmJvdWNhZGFpckBvcmFuZ2UuY29tIFttYWlsdG86bW9o YW1lZC5ib3VjYWRhaXJAb3JhbmdlLmNvbV0gDQpTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE5vdmVtYmVyIDE4 LCAyMDE1IDI6MzkgQU0NClRvOiBzZmMgaXNzdWUgdHJhY2tlcjsgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1zZmMtY29u dHJvbC1wbGFuZUB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZzsgTGluZGEgRHVuYmFyOyBBbmRyZXcgRy4gTWFsaXMg KGFnbWFsaXNAZ21haWwuY29tKQ0KQ2M6IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IFtzZmNd ICMxNiAoY29udHJvbC1wbGFuZSk6IFJTUC1yZWxhdGVkIENvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIChMLiBEdW5i YXIvQS4gTWFsaXMpDQoNCkRlYXIgV0csDQoNClVubGVzcyBJJ20gbWlzdGFrZW4sIFdlIGRpZG4n dCByZWNlaXZlIGFueSBmZWVkYmFjayBhYm91dCB0aGlzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gcG9pbnQuIA0KDQpJ 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X-Spam-Score: -4.785 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RRJyZ3QrjiwW for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:07:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E5AE21B3C0E for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 19:07:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAN47976; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 03:07:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.33) by lhreml404-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.218) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 03:07:40 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml402-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:07:27 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "sfc@ietf.org" , "paulq@cisco.com" , "uri.elzur@intel.com" Thread-Topic: Please voice your vote in SFC WG to make the zero or more Variable SFC header as the MUST and cisco's 16 bytes context header as "SHOULD" or optional Thread-Index: AdEiKY+hv3Hb7xn6Qkqm/lQOpgx+sAALiW6QAADeZIAAABxNIAAGxhkA Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 03:07:27 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.79.38] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848BF0C5nkgeml501mbschi_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020205.564D3CFF.00EF, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: f4424f5f17253c62ccd040b3ce627942 Archived-At: Cc: Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] Please voice your vote in SFC WG to make the zero or more Variable SFC header as the MUST and cisco's 16 bytes context header as "SHOULD" or optional X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 03:07:51 -0000 --_004_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848BF0C5nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848BF0C5nkgeml501mbschi_" --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848BF0C5nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1, it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required for MD-TYP= E 1, It looks more flexible to have variable length context header for MD-TYPE 2= . -Qin From: Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM To: 'sfc@ietf.org'; 'Paul Quinn (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri' Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type =3D 0= x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD" Paul and Uri, The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: [cid:image001.png@01D12226.FDF81290] As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonab= le approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as t= he MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes cont= ext header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a "SH= OULD" support. Let's face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won't need the all 1= 6 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation). Linda --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848BF0C5nkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1,= it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required for MD-TYPE 1= ,

It looks more flexible to have variable length context header for= MD-TYPE 2.

 

-Qin

From: Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM
To: 'sfc@ietf.org'; 'Paul Quinn (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri'
Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "M= D-type =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-typ= e=3D0x1" as " SHOULD"

 

 

Paul and Uri,

 

The Section 3.2 of  dra= ft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says:

 

 

&n= bsp;

As both MD-type 1 and MD-typ= e 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonable approach is having the mi= nimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as the MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 al= lows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE= 1 is a “SHOULD” support.

 

Let’s face it, the maj= ority of SFC deployment probably won’t need the all 16 bytes "co= ntext header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation).

 

&n= bsp;

Linda

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Nov 2015 08:21:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM22.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::8c90:f4e9:be28:2a1%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:21:19 +0100 From: To: "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAABVmgIAACi8AgAABZgCAAAGkgIAAyHag Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:21:19 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04AA@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564CDC6E.5070606@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:21:26 -0000 X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:21:26 -0000 SGkgUmVpbmFsZG8sIA0KDQpGdWxseSBhZ3JlZSBvbiB0aGUgbGFzdCBwYXJ0IG9mIHlvdXIgbWVz c2FnZS4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1NZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+ IERlwqA6IHNmYyBbbWFpbHRvOnNmYy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBEZSBsYSBwYXJ0IGRlIFJl aW5hbGRvIFBlbm5vDQo+IChyZXBlbm5vKQ0KPiBFbnZvecOpwqA6IG1lcmNyZWRpIDE4IG5vdmVt YnJlIDIwMTUgMjE6MjINCj4gw4DCoDogSm9lbCBNLiBIYWxwZXJuOyBEYXZlIERvbHNvbjsgSmlt IEd1aWNoYXJkIChqZ3VpY2hhcikNCj4gQ2PCoDogc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IE9iamV0wqA6IFJl OiBbc2ZjXSAjMTUgKGNvbnRyb2wtcGxhbmUpOiBXaGV0aGVyIHRoZSBjb250cm9sIHBsYW5lIG9w ZXJhdGVzDQo+IG9uIFNGQyBJRHMsIFNGUCBJRHMsIGV0Yy4NCj4gDQo+IE15IHF1ZXN0aW9uIHdh cyBub3Qgb24gbWFuZGF0aW5nIGEgdGVjaG5pcXVlIGJ1dCB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZSBXRyB3b3VsZCB3 b3JrDQo+IG9uIGF0IGxlYXN0IG9uZSBzb2x1dGlvbiB0aGF0IGxldmVyYWdlZCBOU0ggYXMgb3Bw 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Pj4gc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vc2ZjDQo+ID4+DQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBzZmMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0K From nobody Thu Nov 19 03:03:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CA81A9103 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38S7KwgWlGX7 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3AC1A910A for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:32:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLR-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com (192.168.196.172) by WTL-EXCHP-3.sandvine.com (192.168.196.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 02:32:14 -0500 Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by blr-exchp-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::6c6d:7108:c63c:9055%14]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 02:32:11 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIAgABkLwD//99/YAAjTacA//+xwxo= Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:32:12 +0000 Message-ID: <20151119073209.594948115.75564.49932@sandvine.com> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> , <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA0493@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA0493@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:32:18 -0000 TWVkLA0KSSB3b3VsZCBzYXkgdGhhdCB0aGUgU0ZDIGhhcyBubyByZXByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBpbiB0 aGUgZGF0YSBwbGFuZSAobGlrZSBob3N0IG5hbWUgaGFzIG5vIHJlcHJlc2VudGF0aW9uIGluIElQ IHJvdXRpbmcuKQ0K4oCOQm90aCBhcmUgYWJzdHJhY3Rpb25zLg0KDQotRGF2ZQ0KDQogIE9yaWdp bmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UNCkZyb206IG1vaGFtZWQuYm91Y2FkYWlyQG9yYW5nZS5jb20NClNlbnQ6IFRo dXJzZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAxOSwgMjAxNSAyOjEyIEFNDQpUbzogRGF2ZSBEb2xzb24NCkNjOiBz ZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBbc2ZjXSAjMTUgKGNvbnRyb2wtcGxhbmUpOiBXaGV0 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Cj4gPg0KPiA+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N Cj4gPnNmYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPnNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCj4NCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBzZmNAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMNCj4gX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcg bGlzdA0KPiBzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9zZmMNCg== From nobody Thu Nov 19 03:03:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FDEA1A9245 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:41:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, 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([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::cba:56d0:a732:ef5a%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:41:19 +0100 From: To: Dave Dolson Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIAgABkLwD//99/YAAjTacA//+xwxr///5oYA== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:41:18 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04C4@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> , <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA0493@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20151119073209.594948115.75564.49932@sandvine.com> In-Reply-To: <20151119073209.594948115.75564.49932@sandvine.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:41:26 -0000 UmUtLA0KDQpZZXMsIGJ1dCBzdGlsbCB0aGVyZSBpcyBhIHJlY29yZCBzb21ld2hlcmUgdG8gbGlu ayB0aGUgbmFtZSB0byBvbmUgb3IgYSBsaXN0IG9mIElQIGFkZHJlc3Nlcy4gVGhhdCByZWNvcmQg Y2FuIGJlIG1haW50YWluZWQgaW4gYSBjZW50cmFsIGVudGl0eSBvciBiZSBsb2NhbCAoYW4gU0ZG IGNhbiBkZWNpZGUgd2hpY2ggZXhhY3QgU0YgaW5zdGFuY2UgaXQgY2FuIHNvbGljaXRlZCAoTEIg Y2FzZXMsIHJlZHVuZGFuY3kgZ3JvdXAsIGV0Yy4pLiANCg0KV2hhdCBJJ20gYXNraW5nIGZvciBp cyBtb3JlIGZyZWVkb20gaW4gdGhlIGNwIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSB0byBtYWtlIHRoZSByZXNvbHV0 aW9uIHdoZW4gaXQgaXMgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGU6IGVpdGhlciBjZW50cmFsaXplZCwgZGlzdHJpYnV0 ZWQsIG9yIGEgbWl4IChoaWVyYXJjaGljYWwgY29udGV4dCkuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQo+ 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sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363601A92DD for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:45:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jFhCcyPLcU86 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor34.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BA011A92E5 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.67]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 905A2C0282; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:45:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.18]) by opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 454DB1A0062; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:45:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::cba:56d0:a732:ef5a%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:45:27 +0100 From: To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcA== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:45:26 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Joel Halpern , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:45:34 -0000 SGkgSmltLA0KDQpMZXQncyBtZSByZXBocmFzZSB0aGUgaXNzdWUuDQoNCldoYXQgd2UgYXJlIGRp c2N1c3NpbmcgaXMgcmVsYXRlZCB0byB0aGlzIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IChhbmQgc29tZSBv dGhlciBvY2N1cnJlbmNlcyk6IA0KDQo9PT09PT0NCiAgIG8gIFNGQyBGb3J3YXJkaW5nIFBvbGlj eSBUYWJsZTogdGhpcyB0YWJsZSByZWZsZWN0cyB0aGUgU0ZDLXNwZWNpZmljDQogICAgICB0cmFm ZmljIGZvcndhcmRpbmcgcG9saWN5IGVuZm9yY2VkIGJ5IFNGRiBjb21wb25lbnRzIGZvciBldmVy eQ0KICAgICAgcmVsZXZhbnQgaW5jb21pbmcgcGFja2V0IHRoYXQgaXMgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB0byBv bmUgb2YgdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nDQogICAgICBTRkNzLg0KDQogICAgICAgICBbW05vdGU6IFRoZSBx dWVzdGlvbiBvZiB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZSBkYXRhIHBsYW5lIG9wZXJhdGVzIGp1c3QgaW4NCiAgICAg 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amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C4k0C7MMkVMr for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 426121A8F46 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 23:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by omfedm12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id D6DF018C280; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:12:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.58]) by omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id B0DC7238048; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:12:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM33.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::3881:fc15:b4b2:9017%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:12:14 +0100 From: To: Dave Dolson Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAABVmgIAA0liQ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:12:14 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA0493@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:12:23 -0000 SGkgRGF2ZSwNCg0KSSBmdWxseSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHRoaXMgYW5hbG9neTogDQoNCj09DQpTRkMg PC0tPiBkZXN0aW5hdGlvbiBob3N0IG5hbWUNClNGUCA8LS0+IGRlc3RpbmF0aW9uIElQIGFkZHJl c3MNClJTUCA8LS0+IHNlcXVlbmNlIG9mIHJvdXRlcnMgYW5kIGxpbmtzIHRvIGRlbGl2ZXIgdGhl IElQIHBhY2tldA0KPT0NCg0KSGVuY2UgdGhlIG5lZWQgZm9yIHRoZSBjb250cm9sIHBsYW5lIHRv IGluc3RydWN0IHRoZSB1bmRlcmx5aW5nIGRhdGEgcGxhbmUgZWxlbWVudHMgd2l0aCByZXF1aXJl ZCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBhdCBlYWNoIG9mIHRoZXNlIHRocmVlIGxldmVscy4gDQoNCkNoZWVycywN Ck1lZA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tTWVzc2FnZSBkJ29yaWdpbmUtLS0tLQ0KPiBEZcKgOiBzZmMgW21haWx0 bzpzZmMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gRGUgbGEgcGFydCBkZSBEYXZlIERvbHNvbg0KPiBFbnZv ecOpwqA6IG1lcmNyZWRpIDE4IG5vdmVtYnJlIDIwMTUgMjA6MzQNCj4gw4DCoDogSmltIEd1aWNo 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138E41A8987 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:25:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EypkdXeZjW6c for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90D8E1A898A for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 22:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.3]) by omfedm10.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id CEC4E264683; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:25:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.61]) by omfedm07.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id AB8CB4C070; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:25:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM7E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b91c:ea2c:ac8a:7462%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 07:25:18 +0100 From: To: Linda Dunbar , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , "Elzur, Uri" Thread-Topic: [sfc] draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type = 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=0x1" as " SHOULD" Thread-Index: AQHRIlrPAQnu07B6yk2a46lr+lOuMp6i4AHQ Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:25:17 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA03EA@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3413@dfweml701-chm> In-Reply-To: <4A95BA014132FF49AE685FAB4B9F17F657DA3413@dfweml701-chm> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA03EAOPEXCLILMA3corp_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.16.111515 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type = 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=0x1" as " SHOULD" X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:25:26 -0000 --_004_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA03EAOPEXCLILMA3corp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA03EAOPEXCLILMA3corp_" --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA03EAOPEXCLILMA3corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Linda, all, Thank you for raising this point. I agree with you "MD-type =3D 0x2" to be "MUST". As for the MD-type=3D=3D01, we have an issue related to this point that is = on the tracker since 7 months...: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ti= cket/2. I'm reproducing it here, fwiw in the hope to have some discussion a= bout this point. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D What is the rationale for defining two MD Types? Why MD Type#1 is mandatory= to support? Wouldn't the format in Section 3.5 enough for the SFC use case= s? What is the rationale for defining these mandatory contexts headers? What i= s the motivation for defining mandatory context header? The current text does not explain those aspects. For the sake of interoperability (mainly to avoid multiple implementations = with distinct behaviors) and given no technical motivation is provided (e.g= . why MD-type 1 is mandatory why not the other way around, etc. ), one head= er format should be specified. My personal point of view is that we need to choose. I'm personally for a m= inimalist header. Leaving both induces more complexity. I suggest to remove the "MD type" field and MD-type 1 from the specificatio= n. Moreover, I don't understand from the draft what is the rationale for class= ifying the context into these four categories. What is meant by "platform-s= pecific metadata" or "service platform specific"? 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Network Platform Context | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Network Shared Context | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Service Platform Context | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Service Shared Context | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Cheers, Med De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Linda Dunbar Envoy=E9 : jeudi 19 novembre 2015 00:42 =C0 : sfc@ietf.org; Paul Quinn (paulq); Elzur, Uri Objet : [sfc] draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type = =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD" Paul and Uri, The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: [cid:image001.png@01D1229B.4AC05910] As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonab= le approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as t= he MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes cont= ext header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a "SH= OULD" support. Let's face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won't need the all 1= 6 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation). Linda --_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA03EAOPEXCLILMA3corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Linda, all,

 

Thank you for raising this poin= t.

 

I agree with you "MD-type = =3D 0x2" to be "MUST".

 

As for the MD-type=3D=3D01, we = have an issue related to this point that is on the tracker since 7 months&#= 8230;: http://trac.too= ls.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/2. I’m reproducing it here, fwiw i= n the hope to have some discussion about this point.

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

What is the rationale for defin= ing two MD Types? Why MD Type#1 is mandatory to support? Wouldn’t the= format in Section 3.5 enough for the SFC use cases?

What is the rationale for defin= ing these mandatory contexts headers? What is the motivation for defining m= andatory context header?

 

The current text does not expla= in those aspects.

 

For the sake of interoperabilit= y (mainly to avoid multiple implementations with distinct behaviors) and gi= ven no technical motivation is provided (e.g. why MD-type 1 is mandatory why not the other way around, etc. ), one header fo= rmat should be specified.

 

My personal point of view is th= at we need to choose. I’m personally for a minimalist header. Leaving= both induces more complexity.

 

I suggest to remove the "M= D type" field and MD-type 1 from the specification.<= /p>

 

Moreover, I don’t underst= and from the draft what is the rationale for classifying the context into t= hese four categories. What is meant by “platform-specific metadata” or “service platform specific”?

 

    0 1 2 3=

    0 1 2 3 4 5 = 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1

 

    +-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= 3;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+

    | Network Pl= atform Context |

    +-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= 3;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+

    | Network Sh= ared Context |

    +-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= 3;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+

    | Service Pl= atform Context |

    +-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= 3;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+

    | Service Sh= ared Context |

    +-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= 3;-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-= +-+-+-+-+-+

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

Cheers,

Med

 

 

De : sfc = [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Linda Dunbar
Envoy=E9 : jeudi 19 novembre 2015 00:42
=C0 : sfc@ietf.org; Paul Quinn (paulq); Elzur, Uri
Objet : [sfc] draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to sta= te "MD-type =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" = and MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD"

 

 

Paul and Uri,

 

The Section 3.2 of  dra= ft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says:

 

 

&n= bsp;

As both MD-type 1 and MD-typ= e 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonable approach is having the mi= nimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as the MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 al= lows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE= 1 is a “SHOULD” support.

 

Let’s face it, the maj= ority of SFC deployment probably won’t need the all 16 bytes "co= ntext header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation).

 

&n= bsp;

Linda

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X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LHsizMUbezxK for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxb2.tigertech.net (mxb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD05F1B2A52 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:22:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71C91C0142; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:22:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 055557A0048; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:22:06 -0800 (PST) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Dave Dolson References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA0493@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20151119073209.594948115.75564.49932@sandvine.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04C4@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <564DDB0C.7030001@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 09:22:04 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04C4@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:22:11 -0000 Can you please describe some situation where there is increased value in having SFC information in the data plane. Having the coordination within the control components is understandable and usually necessary. But that is out of scope for this document and this working group. In what circumstance does the increased flexibility, which introduces additional complexity in the data plane, add value? Yours, Joel On 11/19/15 2:41 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Re-, > > Yes, but still there is a record somewhere to link the name to one or a list of IP addresses. That record can be maintained in a central entity or be local (an SFF can decide which exact SF instance it can solicited (LB cases, redundancy group, etc.). > > What I'm asking for is more freedom in the cp architecture to make the resolution when it is appropriate: either centralized, distributed, or a mix (hierarchical context). > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com] >> Envoyé : jeudi 19 novembre 2015 08:32 >> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> Med, >> I would say that the SFC has no representation in the data plane (like >> host name has no representation in IP routing.) >> ‎Both are abstractions. >> >> -Dave >> >> Original Message >> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:12 AM >> To: Dave Dolson >> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> I fully agree with this analogy: >> >> == >> SFC <--> destination host name >> SFP <--> destination IP address >> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >> == >> >> Hence the need for the control plane to instruct the underlying data plane >> elements with required information at each of these three levels. >> >> Cheers, >> Med >> >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Dave Dolson >>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 20:34 >>> À : Jim Guichard (jguichar) >>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates >>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>> [reduced distribution to Jim & sfc list] >>> >>> Jim, >>> I think your description is helpful. Can we find a place for this in the >>> docs? >>> >>> I don't think I can understand it without referring to the concrete NSH, >>> however. >>> >>> >>> If I understand correctly, the following are true: >>> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are the same, they are on the same SFP. >>> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are different, they are on different >> SFPs. >>> - although two packets have the same SPI, they may traverse different >>> RSPs. >>> >>> - when thinking of the data-plane and south-bound interfaces C1 thru C4, >>> the SFC concept doesn't exist. >>> (SFC is just a north-interface concept like, "chain A provides a >>> firewall and a NAT") >>> >>> Have I got it right? >>> >>> >>> I also think the following *analogy* with routing can be drawn: >>> SFC <--> destination host name >>> SFP <--> destination IP address >>> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >>> >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Guichard >>> (jguichar) >>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:18 AM >>> To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc- >>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel Halpern; Joel M. Halpern >>> Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates >>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>> [Chair hat off …] >>> >>> I have to say I am struggling to see the “issue†in this thread that >> needs >>> to be addressed other than confusion over SFC vs SFP definition; from a >>> data plane perspective it is *very* clear that SFP/SI identifiers are >> used >>> as the lookup key into a forwarding construct that may contain 1:n >> number >>> of next-hops (SFFs, SFs). In some cases that lookup will point to a >> single >>> next-hop, in others multiple next-hops. In *all* cases this has >> absolutely >>> nothing to do with the SFC as each representation of that SFC is >> uniquely >>> identified by an SFP-id. >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> On 11/18/15, 10:19 AM, "sfc on behalf of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, Med, >>>> >>>> I also referred to other parts of the document, when I wrote: >>>> >>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>> plane² >>>> >>>> >>>> For example, I am not sure I understand what this means: >>>> >>>> " o Populate SFC forwarding policy tables of involved SFC data >> plane² >>>> >>>> >>>> Or at: >>>> " o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC- >> specific >>>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every >>>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the existing >>>> SFCs." >>>> >>>> >>>> My comment is that those should be ³SFP" >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Med Boucadair >>>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:03 AM >>>> To: Carlos Pignataro >>>> Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , >>>> "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" >>>> , Joel Halpern >>>> , sfc issue tracker , >>>> "sfc@ietf.org" , Joel Halpern >>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>> operates >>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>> >>>>> Carlos, >>>>> >>>>> There is not SFC ID in the core text of the control plane draft. >>>>> >>>>> The text you quoted is part of an appendix with a note that clearly >>>>> states this is not discussed. A corresponding issue record has been >>>>> recorded to seek for more feedback on that appendix. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Med >>>>> >>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 15:35 >>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>>> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc-control- >> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>> Joel >>>>>> M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Joel Halpern >>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>> operates >>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> Med, >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:08 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is an open issue for this draft, so it is normal to continue >>>>>> discussing it. I don't know how you can conclude in advance that we >>> are >>>>>> circling. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Discussion is great, Med. But my Œwe are circling' comment (not in >>>>>> advanced, but already evident) is because I saw the same questions, >>>>>> same >>>>>> arguments, and same answers as before. >>>>>> >>>>>>> "strongly believe" is not a technical argument, btw. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, I believe so on technical grounds! Most of which have already >>>>>> been >>>>>> said, so I do not want to contribute to the circular discussion. >>>>>> >>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>>> plane², >>>>>> and ³SFC IDs². The architecture says that SFC are made of abstract >>>>>> service >>>>>> functions. There¹s no actual forwarding in this abstract conceptual >>>>>> model. >>>>>> >>>>>> The control-plane draft says ³Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP is >>>>>> "yellow²,², and my point again is that in the data plane an SFP has >> an >>>>>> identifier (which identifies the SFP (SFP-ID) and is not the >>> identifier >>>>>> of >>>>>> something else, it¹s not a Topology-ID, it¹s not a SKU, it¹s not a >>> URI, >>>>>> it¹s not a Family Name, and not an SFC ID), and the control (and >>>>>> policy) >>>>>> plane can of course work with SFCs. >>>>>> >>>>>> My $0.02. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Med >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 11:52 >>>>>>>> À : Joel Halpern >>>>>>>> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf- >> sfc- >>>>>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>> operates >>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am a bit baffled to see this thread again ‹ it appears the >>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>> restarted to continue in circles. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no need for >> SFC >>>>>>>> identification passed down ‹ there is no provisioning of SFCs >>>>>> southbound. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Almost) every instance of ³SFC² in the control-plane >> requirements >>>>>> draft >>>>>>>> should really say ³SFP². There is no use of talking about SFCs >>>>>> towards >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> data plane. The relationship between chains and paths is a policy >>>>>> matter >>>>>>>> which belongs in the policy/control itself, but not out of there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is no different than what I said a few months ago on the >> same >>>>>> topic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern >>>>>> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control >>>>>> system >>>>>>>> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible >>>>>> choices >>>>>>>> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful >> constraints, >>>>>> what >>>>>>>> is provisioned has to be the SFP. >>>>>>>>> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is >>>>>> isomorphic >>>>>>>> to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the >>>>>> result >>>>>>>> is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the >>> SFC >>>>>> then >>>>>>>> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases >>>>>> that >>>>>> can >>>>>>>> be handled. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >> plane >>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >>>>>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc >> issue >>>>>>>>>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >> plane >>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more >> than >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" >>>>>> refers >>>>>> to >>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) >> Does >>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> make sense to me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation >>>>>> (depending >>>>>>>>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a >>> constrained >>>>>>>>> version of the original SFC. " >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the >> original >>>>>> SFC. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or >> to >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path >>>>>> computation >>>>>>>> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the >>> SFC >>>>>> as >>>>>>>> SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained >>>>>> version >>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the original SFC"! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >>>>>>>>>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be >>>>>> visited. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in >> the >>>>>>>>>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO >>> not >>>>>>>> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a >>>>>> non- >>>>>>>> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; >>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >> plane >>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> RFC7665 says the following: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>>>>>>>>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC- >>>>>> enabled >>>>>>>>>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly >>> which >>>>>> SFF >>>>>>>>>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, >> while >>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions >>> about >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >>>>>>>>>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision >>>>>> required >>>>>>>>>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It >>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>>> that information is no more than the service chain itself >>> (without >>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>> constraints). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a >>>>>> loose >>>>>>>>>> path >>>>>>>>>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a >>>>>> domain >>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. >>>>>> Nevertheless, >>>>>>>>>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoyé : >>>>>> vendredi >>>>>>>>>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 À : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR >> Mohamed >>>>>>>>>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>>>>>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>>>>>>>>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC >> IDs, >>>>>> SFP >>>>>>>> IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Joel, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I concur. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship >> of >>>>>>>>>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even >>> more >>>>>>>>>>> likely >>>>>>>>>> "policy" >>>>>>>>>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>>>>>>>>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's >> consistent >>>>>>>>>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service >> Chaining >>>>>>>>>>>> work that >>>>>>>>>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs >>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements >>> other >>>>>>>>>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >>>>>>>>>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >>>>>>>>>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by >>>>>> service >>>>>>>> function path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such >>> path >>>>>> IDs. >>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. >> They >>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> still path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work >>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>> chain >>>>>>>>>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Re-, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data >>> plane >>>>>>>>>>> architecture document. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >>>>>>>>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Thu Nov 19 06:30:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2026C1B2A7C for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:30:34 -0600 From: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Dave Dolson Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIAgABkLwD//99/YAAjTacA//+xwxr///5oYIAAhz2A Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:30:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> 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<782C23734E93CC4F8E7C79B53551DA4B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:30:41 -0000 SGkgTWVkLA0KDQpPbiAxMS8xOS8xNSwgMjo0MSBBTSwgInNmYyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgbW9oYW1l ZC5ib3VjYWRhaXJAb3JhbmdlLmNvbSINCjxzZmMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYg b2YgbW9oYW1lZC5ib3VjYWRhaXJAb3JhbmdlLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5SZS0sDQo+DQo+WWVz LCBidXQgc3RpbGwgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSByZWNvcmQgc29tZXdoZXJlIHRvIGxpbmsgdGhlIG5hbWUg dG8gb25lIG9yIGENCj5saXN0IG9mIElQIGFkZHJlc3Nlcy4gVGhhdCByZWNvcmQgY2FuIGJlIG1h aW50YWluZWQgaW4gYSBjZW50cmFsIGVudGl0eQ0KPm9yIGJlIGxvY2FsIChhbiBTRkYgY2FuIGRl 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X19fXw0KPnNmYyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj5zZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRm Lm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0KDQo= From nobody Thu Nov 19 06:42:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47961B2AAA for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id byvPGMtcXQI6 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 06:42:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 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=?us-ascii?q?QEBARQEgQGFU4R+hFkYgwSBRAEEjR2JLwGIFIUZgVuEQJI6g3EBHwEBQoIRHRa?= =?us-ascii?q?BQHKEGYEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,318,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="209899244" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 19 Nov 2015 14:42:36 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (xch-aln-007.cisco.com [173.36.7.17]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJEgajo010282 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:42:36 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-ALN-007.cisco.com (173.36.7.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:42:35 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 08:42:35 -0600 From: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcIAAifwA Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:42:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.38.147] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <62197E18278C634E824192281E1718EA@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Joel Halpern , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:42:41 -0000 SGkgTWVkLA0KDQpPbiAxMS8xOS8xNSwgMjo0NSBBTSwgIm1vaGFtZWQuYm91Y2FkYWlyQG9yYW5n ZS5jb20iDQo8bW9oYW1lZC5ib3VjYWRhaXJAb3JhbmdlLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5IaSBKaW0s DQo+DQo+TGV0J3MgbWUgcmVwaHJhc2UgdGhlIGlzc3VlLg0KPg0KPldoYXQgd2UgYXJlIGRpc2N1 c3NpbmcgaXMgcmVsYXRlZCB0byB0aGlzIHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IChhbmQgc29tZQ0KPm90 aGVyIG9jY3VycmVuY2VzKToNCj4NCj49PT09PT0NCj4gICBvICBTRkMgRm9yd2FyZGluZyBQb2xp Y3kgVGFibGU6IHRoaXMgdGFibGUgcmVmbGVjdHMgdGhlIFNGQy1zcGVjaWZpYw0KPiAgICAgIHRy YWZmaWMgZm9yd2FyZGluZyBwb2xpY3kgZW5mb3JjZWQgYnkgU0ZGIGNvbXBvbmVudHMgZm9yIGV2 ZXJ5DQo+ICAgICAgcmVsZXZhbnQgaW5jb21pbmcgcGFja2V0IHRoYXQgaXMgYXNzb2NpYXRlZCB0 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d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="209291753" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Nov 2015 15:38:04 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (xch-rtp-007.cisco.com [64.101.220.147]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJFc49U011947 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:38:04 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (64.101.220.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:38:03 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 10:38:03 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Qin Wu Thread-Topic: [sfc] Please voice your vote in SFC WG to make the zero or more Variable SFC header as the MUST and cisco's 16 bytes context header as "SHOULD" or optional Thread-Index: AdEiKY+hv3Hb7xn6Qkqm/lQOpgx+sAALiW6QAADeZIAAABxNIAAGxhkAACTd1oA= Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:38:03 +0000 Message-ID: <5E0943CD-91DE-4E9C-BFF7-D0A3BDFC63AF@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.150.53.159] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B8A29FB1-267F-4554-8570-6378C39F68B3"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] Please voice your vote in SFC WG to make the zero or more Variable SFC header as the MUST and cisco's 16 bytes context header as "SHOULD" or optional X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 15:38:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B8A29FB1-267F-4554-8570-6378C39F68B3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0D5B58A1-D559-486A-8A0B-1C637BCAF0E8" --Apple-Mail=_0D5B58A1-D559-486A-8A0B-1C637BCAF0E8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Qin, I=E2=80=99m trying to understand the Subject header on this email. I=E2=80=99ll let the chairs jump in, but there=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cvote=E2= =80=9D I believe in the SFC WG. There=E2=80=99s also not =E2=80=9Ccisco=E2= =80=99s context header=E2=80=9D. Care to explain? Linda, You asked before: > If an implementation supports MD-Type =3D 0x2, then it is not = supporting MD-Type =3D 0x1. So what does it mean by saying "Must = Support"? An implementation is able to support both. It is not that if an = implementation supports MD-Type 2, it is not supporting MD-Type 1. Only = one would be used for a given SFP, but that=E2=80=99s a different = question. Please see inline, my additional $0.02. > On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, Qin Wu wrote: >=20 > +1, it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required for = MD-TYPE 1, > It looks more flexible to have variable length context header for = MD-TYPE 2. >=20 > -Qin > From: Linda Dunbar > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM > To: 'sfc@ietf.org '; 'Paul Quinn (paulq)'; = 'Elzur, Uri' > Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type = =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=3D0x1" as " = SHOULD" >=20 >=20 > Paul and Uri, >=20 > The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: >=20 > >=20 >=20 > As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more = reasonable approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 = bytes) as the MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or = 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And = MD-TYPE 1 is a =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D support. >=20 The different MD-Types are optimizing different things: MD-Type 1 for = performance and HW, MD-Type 2 for flexibility. The idea is that the more = we can use fixed headers the better, as getting too creative with the = amount of metadata can be a bug more than a feature. > Let=E2=80=99s face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won=E2=80= =99t need the all 16 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance of = packet fragmentation). This logic seems to argue for MD-Type 1. Prioritizing smaller context = metadata, in a performance-friendly way. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. >=20 >=20 > Linda > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc = --Apple-Mail=_0D5B58A1-D559-486A-8A0B-1C637BCAF0E8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Qin,

I=E2=80= =99m trying to understand the Subject header on this email.

I=E2=80=99ll let the = chairs jump in, but there=E2=80=99s no =E2=80=9Cvote=E2=80=9D I believe = in the SFC WG. There=E2=80=99s also not =E2=80=9Ccisco=E2=80=99s context = header=E2=80=9D. Care to explain?

Linda,

You asked before:

If an implementation = supports MD-Type =3D 0x2, then it is not supporting MD-Type =3D 0x1. So = what does it mean by saying "Must Support"?

An implementation is = able to support both. It is not that if an implementation supports = MD-Type 2, it is not supporting MD-Type 1. Only one would be used for a = given SFP, but that=E2=80=99s a different question.

Please see inline, my = additional $0.02.

On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, = Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:

+1, it is not clear to me why 4 context = headers MUST be required for MD-TYPE 1,
It looks more flexible to have variable length context header = for MD-TYPE 2.
 
-Qin
From: Linda = Dunbar 
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, = 2015 5:42 PM
To: 'sfc@ietf.org'; 'Paul Quinn (paulq)'; 'Elzur, = Uri'
Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It = makes more sense to state "MD-type =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as = "MUST" and MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD"
 
 
Paul and Uri, 
 
The Section 3.2 of =  draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says:
 
<image001.png>
 
 
As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified = by the draft, a more reasonable approach is having the minimum common = part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as the MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows = minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 = should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D = support.
 

The different MD-Types are optimizing different = things: MD-Type 1 for performance and HW, MD-Type 2 for flexibility. The = idea is that the more we can use fixed headers the better, as getting = too creative with the amount of metadata can be a bug more than a = feature.

Let=E2=80=99s face it, the majority of SFC deployment = probably won=E2=80=99t need the all 16 bytes "context header" (which has = higher chance of packet = fragmentation).

This logic seems to argue for MD-Type 1. = Prioritizing smaller context metadata, in a performance-friendly = way.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

 
 
Linda
_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

= --Apple-Mail=_0D5B58A1-D559-486A-8A0B-1C637BCAF0E8-- --Apple-Mail=_B8A29FB1-267F-4554-8570-6378C39F68B3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWTezbAAoJEIXgpQGOZny9XNAP+wfct7r3GiVPBqFKbFPQSadD CMslJf1YID2h+SlZvcgItWC6DJpfRL6sCR1dO9eF9FJfanoB68F7/ztwFEznj6tk oyoilRFyQGBvUNzS4QM/27duWGVT7FSGxTf/s2gV3zHobHNuRnsSos3Ivowmv/B1 oM1jubsFZha7hku1DMxY5NbUbKEevftfvELyirEZ18e1BEG+OX/D7Q4K70Sdb2xA UR2EOh2DHq2/u2HE1zAd1QqCTe1XvvE0dN/V2SDDlss/kb06qjfjBbIseTBsiZij wZ0gM7ju9n+XdsmNmF01ueBKNvMM9TfLCyEGO3Y47IzIzRrypA0td22NnUMx5t/i O2Y2E28zpZgZG9sELRp+Eo+V9ehDXuKdWHesYnzCr1F9H8k8nxCMeOl7kILKnziv dBGB3qpLKaynCBJAYm78vcsDevheYJnEVzFTPjr+0Oq5VP0Njo5XptGPNldTZIuo jwpByHePffdY9F8ZFy+Lk9wCZBkrJ7z5J3Ki6T7/NK2tmIyGpWbPRTPa7zNI2VkZ R4eOW365cW6PD1GtZl24jDi+bg4gnlRQECrcs2JoFlYPMsbp5jLo4poAeAdcBmE/ KRS8WQqVZLAvxmlu/jxkLqRPlGd4mCvqZ1E8QW0cr6KQPjqt8C+eqKCDOT2y5YIQ J6WAzqP9Ig0HPUUD/WQW =bMuj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B8A29FB1-267F-4554-8570-6378C39F68B3-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 14:01:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931A51B361B for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:01:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CjmhUjENfUJz 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fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIxXKxooPxrUbyUe8yxXoCdSnDw== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:01:06 +0000 Message-ID: <919C0224-785B-463E-8FBC-F00336970EAF@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.231] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_919C0224785B463E8FBCF00336970EAFciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:01:17 -0000 --_000_919C0224785B463E8FBCF00336970EAFciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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E=Sophos;i="5.20,319,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="51336593" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 19 Nov 2015 22:21:18 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (xch-rcd-007.cisco.com [173.37.102.17]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJMLIZh026124 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:21:18 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (173.37.102.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:21:18 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:21:18 -0600 From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAGzwgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAAYYAIAA4esAgALG/YA= Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:21:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F48D@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564BF6F2.7060904@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <564BF6F2.7060904@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.231] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <999BDC509722044A98784E04865F97FC@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , Joel Halpern , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:21:21 -0000 Joel, > On Nov 17, 2015, at 10:56 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote= : >=20 > Let me trying phrasing this differently. > A Service Function Chain (SFC) effectively designates a (potentially larg= e) collection of sequences of SFF and SF visitations, any one of which woul= d satisfy the the SFC. >=20 I would even lift that "higher": an SFC connotes policy, not realization. = That puts is squarely in the control/policy space. > An Service Function Path (SFP) designates a subset of the collection desi= gnated by the SFC. For some SFPs, in some deployments, that will be a set o= f 1. For other SFPs (in the same or other deployments) it may be a larger = set. For some SFPs in some deployments the SFP may designate the same set = of choices as the SFC. We are on the same page: this where the rubber meets the road, or the packe= ts meet the wire. The abstract policy from the SFC is mapped to tangible r= esources for instantiation. >=20 > Formally, the SFP is a subset of the SFC, but not necessarily a proper su= bset. >=20 > By always having control provision in terms of SFPs, the data plane alway= s sees the effects of the constraints that control has placed in selecting = the SFP. And because of the definition of SFP, this allows the range of de= plooyments the working group has requested. >=20 > Add SFC information into the provisioning does not increase the capabilit= y. It does not, in fact, add any information tha thte forwarding can use. Exactly what I was trying to convey above: policy --> SFC, instantiation --= > SFP. Using that distinction, the architecture has a clear line between t= he two domains, and a way to cross them. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 19 14:24:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2EE41B3665 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:24:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mk1HCYAblVhE for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:24:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C84AA1B3671 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 14:24:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1016; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447971884; x=1449181484; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=E9lznZNUSa5/TkX64ERPvE1EnESJvZVIVDecf8iUOlU=; b=m6x23fn59M/9GjGrObZu3PjTD6FMBTkzmTov/fisMU6HVTFfpXrtcYHK NqsrBJv84yBDR1SWRklJstBe17s+xdTU9agvX1GLwsF0l7IcvorrPHUy7 OPD7HIxEhtCrL6oIYZHfgNsRjA5MW9479LWTBxKOp6w7s3WWKVkfxMhcR Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AMAgAkS05W/5xdJa1egzuBQga+eAENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WWGDwKBVTgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEDATo/BQsCAQgOCh4QMiUCBA4FiCYIwDI?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEYhlSCEIJuhFmDS4EVAQSWTAGNLYFblnqDc?= =?us-ascii?q?QEfAQFCgkSBQHKEGYEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,319,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="209671741" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Nov 2015 22:24:44 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (xch-aln-008.cisco.com [173.36.7.18]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAJMOiHM024603 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:24:44 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:24:43 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:24:43 -0600 From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: Dave Dolson Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAGzwgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIAgAAQWwCAADbogIABwfOA Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:24:43 +0000 Message-ID: <9FC83029-32A8-461D-8FEC-1B14598498CB@cisco.com> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.231] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Jim Guichard \(jguichar\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 22:24:46 -0000 > On Nov 18, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Dave Dolson wrote: >=20 > [reduced distribution to Jim & sfc list] >=20 > Jim, > I think your description is helpful. Can we find a place for this in the = docs? >=20 > I don't think I can understand it without referring to the concrete NSH, = however. >=20 >=20 > If I understand correctly, the following are true: > - if the NSH SPI in two packets are the same, they are on the same SFP. > - if the NSH SPI in two packets are different, they are on different SFPs= . > - although two packets have the same SPI, they may traverse different RSP= s. >=20 > - when thinking of the data-plane and south-bound interfaces C1 thru C4, = the SFC concept doesn't exist. > (SFC is just a north-interface concept like, "chain A provides a firewa= ll and a NAT") >=20 > Have I got it right? Yes, that's exactly the intent. A chain tell you what you want, or as you = say: a firewall and a nat. That means nothing in the service plane.=20 From nobody Thu Nov 19 16:57:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE871A022C for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:57:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bus4QzGozWOD for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB9581A0218 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 16:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.63]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id D76DB874E1DF8; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:57:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70twxchhub04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.36]) by us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAK0v5no011169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:57:05 GMT Received: from US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.9.242]) by US70TWXCHHUB04.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:57:05 -0500 From: "Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew)" To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , Qin Wu Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5emPvL6Hp77kOGF+aJe36w6Q== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:57:03 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-originating-ip: [135.5.27.18] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D273AF56849AAandrewdolganowalcatellucentcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 00:57:12 -0000 --_000_D273AF56849AAandrewdolganowalcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree with Paul. There were lengthy discussions in the past that led to th= e current version of the draft. I see no reason to re-open the decisions ma= de before. Andrew On 2015-11-19, 2:01 PM, "sfc on behalf of Paul Quinn (paulq)" wrote: Qin, I've updated to the subject line to reflect the topic more accurately. Ref= erring to "cisco" context headers is misleading, and frankly indicates a la= ck of understanding of how a document is adopted. Further, and I'm sure the chairs will weigh in, but as an IETF participants= , you should know that IETF procedure is _not_ vote based. The NSH draft w= as adopted based on working group consensus, and as such received significa= nt review. Similarly, consensus is required for updates. Please read RFC= 2418, section 3.3 in particular. On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, Qin Wu > wrote: +1, it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required for MD-TYP= E 1, This was discussed on list, prior to adoption, please feel free to review t= he archives. In summary, parsing TLVs is a complex operation, particularly= in hardware, and as such, a simple fixed header provided an easy to implem= ent metadata solution. The TLV option is there as well but since the simpl= est case is needed as a minimum, that is the mandatory piece. Adding TLV s= upport (i.e. a flexible parser) means you can probably support type-1 as we= ll so the MUST/SHOULD does not create an added burden. It looks more flexible to have variable length context header for MD-TYPE 2= . -Qin From: Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM To: 'sfc@ietf.org'; 'Paul Quinn (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri' Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type =3D 0= x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD" Paul and Uri, The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonab= le approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as t= he MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes cont= ext header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a =93= SHOULD=94 support. Let=92s face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won=92t need the a= ll 16 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentati= on). Linda --_000_D273AF56849AAandrewdolganowalcatellucentcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agree with Paul.  There were lengthy discussions in the past that= led to the current version of the draft. I see no reason to re-open the de= cisions made before.

Andrew 

On 2015-11-19, 2:01 PM, "sfc on behalf of Paul Quinn (paulq)"= ; wrote:

Qin,

I've updated to the subject line to reflect the topic more = accurately.  Referring to "cisco" context headers is mislead= ing, and frankly indicates a lack of understanding of how a document is ado= pted.  

Further, and I'm sure the chairs will weigh in, but as an I= ETF participants, you should know that IETF procedure is _not_ vote based. =  The NSH draft was adopted based on working group consensus, and as su= ch received significant review.  Similarly, consensus is required for updates.   Please read RFC2418, section 3.3= in particular.  


On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:

+1, it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required = for MD-TYPE 1,


This was discussed on list, prior to adoption, please feel free to rev= iew the archives.  In summary, parsing TLVs is a complex operation, pa= rticularly in hardware, and as such, a simple fixed header provided an easy= to implement metadata solution.  The TLV option is there as well but since the simplest case is needed as a min= imum, that is the mandatory piece.  Adding TLV support (i.e. a flexibl= e parser) means you can probably support type-1 as well so the MUST/SHOULD = does not create an added burden.


It looks more flexible to have variable length context= header for MD-TYPE 2.

 



-Qin

From: Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM
To: 'sfc@ietf.= org'; 'Paul Quinn (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri'
Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to st= ate "MD-type =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST"= and MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD"

&nbs= p;

&= nbsp;

Paul and Uri,

&= nbsp;

The Section 3.2 o= f  draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says:

&nbs= p;

<image001.png>

&= nbsp;

 

As both MD-type 1= and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonable approach is ha= ving the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as the MUST. As the M= D-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And = MD-TYPE 1 is a =93SHOULD=94 support.

&= nbsp;

Let=92s face it, = the majority of SFC deployment probably won=92t need the all 16 bytes "= ;context header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation).

&= nbsp;

 

Linda


 --_000_D273AF56849AAandrewdolganowalcatellucentcom_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 17:16:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049371A03A5 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:16:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DHZkagzatgjO for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from g2t2354.austin.hp.com (g2t2354.austin.hp.com [15.217.128.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C53231A03A3 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (g2w4316.austin.hp.com [16.197.9.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by g2t2354.austin.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E7C754; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:16:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from G1W5782.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.193.26.0) by G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.197.9.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.169.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:14:32 +0000 Received: from G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net ([169.254.3.159]) by G1W5782.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.193.26.0]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:14:32 +0000 From: "Bottorff, Paul" To: "Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew)" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , Qin Wu Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5emPvL6Hp77kOGF+aJe36w6Z6kGlQw Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:14:31 +0000 Message-ID: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [16.193.232.30] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88G1W3656americas_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:16:55 -0000 --_000_94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88G1W3656americas_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew: I think the point here is that there may be a lot of applications which don= 't need either the fixed or TLV meta-data and therefore we should not force= implementation to support the fixed headers. Cheers, Paul From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dolganow, Andrew (Andr= ew) Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 4:57 PM To: Paul Quinn (paulq); Qin Wu Cc: uri.elzur@intel.com; sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Agree with Paul. There were lengthy discussions in the past that led to th= e current version of the draft. I see no reason to re-open the decisions ma= de before. Andrew On 2015-11-19, 2:01 PM, "sfc on behalf of Paul Quinn (paulq)" wrote: Qin, I've updated to the subject line to reflect the topic more accurately. Ref= erring to "cisco" context headers is misleading, and frankly indicates a la= ck of understanding of how a document is adopted. Further, and I'm sure the chairs will weigh in, but as an IETF participants= , you should know that IETF procedure is _not_ vote based. The NSH draft w= as adopted based on working group consensus, and as such received significa= nt review. Similarly, consensus is required for updates. Please read RFC= 2418, section 3.3 in particular. On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, Qin Wu > wrote: +1, it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required for MD-TYP= E 1, This was discussed on list, prior to adoption, please feel free to review t= he archives. In summary, parsing TLVs is a complex operation, particularly= in hardware, and as such, a simple fixed header provided an easy to implem= ent metadata solution. The TLV option is there as well but since the simpl= est case is needed as a minimum, that is the mandatory piece. Adding TLV s= upport (i.e. a flexible parser) means you can probably support type-1 as we= ll so the MUST/SHOULD does not create an added burden. It looks more flexible to have variable length context header for MD-TYPE 2= . -Qin From: Linda Dunbar Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM To: 'sfc@ietf.org'; 'Paul Quinn (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri' Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type =3D 0= x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD" Paul and Uri, The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonab= le approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as t= he MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes cont= ext header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a "SH= OULD" support. Let's face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won't need the all 1= 6 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation). Linda --_000_94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88G1W3656americas_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Andrew:

 

I think the point here= is that there may be a lot of applications which don’t need either t= he fixed or TLV meta-data and therefore we should not force implementation = to support the fixed headers.

 

Cheers,

 

Paul=

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew)
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 4:57 PM
To: Paul Quinn (paulq); Qin Wu
Cc: uri.elzur@intel.com; sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar
Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

 

Agree w= ith Paul.  There were lengthy discussions in the past that led to the = current version of the draft. I see no reason to re-open the decisions made= before.

&n= bsp;

Andrew&= nbsp;

&n= bsp;

On 2015= -11-19, 2:01 PM, "sfc on behalf of Paul Quinn (paulq)" wrote:

&n= bsp;

Qin,

&n= bsp;

I've up= dated to the subject line to reflect the topic more accurately.  Refer= ring to "cisco" context headers is misleading, and frankly indica= tes a lack of understanding of how a document is adopted.  

&n= bsp;

Further= , and I'm sure the chairs will weigh in, but as an IETF participants, you s= hould know that IETF procedure is _not_ vote based.  The NSH draft was= adopted based on working group consensus, and as such received significant review.  Similarly, consensus is req= uired for updates.   Please read RFC2418, section 3.3 in particular. &= nbsp;

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

On Nov = 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, Qin Wu <bil= l.wu@huawei.com> wrote:

&n= bsp;

+1, it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required f= or MD-TYPE 1,=

&n= bsp;

This wa= s discussed on list, prior to adoption, please feel free to review the arch= ives.  In summary, parsing TLVs is a complex operation, particularly i= n hardware, and as such, a simple fixed header provided an easy to implement metadata solution.  The TLV option is t= here as well but since the simplest case is needed as a minimum, that is th= e mandatory piece.  Adding TLV support (i.e. a flexible parser) means = you can probably support type-1 as well so the MUST/SHOULD does not create an added burden.

&n= bsp;



It looks more flexible to have variable length contex= t header for MD-TYPE 2.

 

&n= bsp;



-Qin

From: Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM
To: 'sfc@ietf.org'; 'Paul Quinn = (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri'
Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "M= D-type =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-typ= e=3D0x1" as " SHOULD"

 

 

Paul and Uri,

 

The Section 3.2 of  draft-= ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says:

 

<image001.png>

 

 

As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2= are specified by the draft, a more reasonable approach is having the minim= um common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as the MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes= context header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is = a “SHOULD” support.

 

Let’s face it, the majori= ty of SFC deployment probably won’t need the all 16 bytes "conte= xt header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation).

 

 

Linda

&n= bsp;

--_000_94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88G1W3656americas_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 17:19:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2069F1A03FF for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:19:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.786 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jf3AEReqUGnF for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 861F11A03F9 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAO58748; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:19:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.73) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:19:44 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA512-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.84]) by SZXEMA414-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:19:41 +0800 From: "Zhouqian (Cathy)" To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Re: [sfc] draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type = 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=0x1" as " SHOULD" Thread-Index: AdEjMYeSPRPImGYQTIyHiL4/esmt1A== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:19:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.77.95] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090201.564E7531.008C, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.7.84, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: b2f95d7f82b29f4bb7cb52f919c7a234 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type = 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=0x1" as " SHOULD" X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:19:50 -0000 I support Linda's opinion. Cathy From: Linda Dunbar=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM To: 'sfc@ietf.org'; 'Paul Quinn (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri' Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "MD-type =3D 0= x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD"=20 Paul and Uri,=20 The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: =20 As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonab= le approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as t= he MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes cont= ext header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a "SH= OULD" support.=20 Let's face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won't need the all 1= 6 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance of packet fragmentation).= =20 Linda From nobody Thu Nov 19 17:30:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AD9A1A1A19 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:30:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDUNU0Hmks80 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxb2.tigertech.net (mxb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1CDE1A1A14 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D99307A0048; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:30:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3D3751C071F; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:30:25 -0800 (PST) To: Qin Wu References: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <564E77AF.9090905@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 20:30:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:30:28 -0000 From where I sit, it seems likely that metadata will be needed in many, possibly almost all, situations. What is unclear to me is whether most of those cases can be dealt with reasonably well by 4 fixed length fields, or are significantly better dealt with by TLV structured metadata. the reason I include the reasonably / significant caveat is that there are clearly processing advantages if we can keep the header small and fixed. Yours, Joel On 11/19/15 8:14 PM, Bottorff, Paul wrote: > Andrew: > > I think the point here is that there may be a lot of applications which > don’t need either the fixed or TLV meta-data and therefore we should not > force implementation to support the fixed headers. > > Cheers, > > Paul > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Dolganow, > Andrew (Andrew) > *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2015 4:57 PM > *To:* Paul Quinn (paulq); Qin Wu > *Cc:* uri.elzur@intel.com; sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar > *Subject:* Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv > > Agree with Paul. There were lengthy discussions in the past that led to > the current version of the draft. I see no reason to re-open the > decisions made before. > > Andrew > > On 2015-11-19, 2:01 PM, "sfc on behalf of Paul Quinn (paulq)" wrote: > > Qin, > > I've updated to the subject line to reflect the topic more > accurately. Referring to "cisco" context headers is misleading, and > frankly indicates a lack of understanding of how a document is adopted. > > Further, and I'm sure the chairs will weigh in, but as an IETF > participants, you should know that IETF procedure is _not_ vote > based. The NSH draft was adopted based on working group consensus, > and as such received significant review. Similarly, consensus is > required for updates. Please read RFC2418, section 3.3 in particular. > > On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, Qin Wu > wrote: > > +1, it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required > for MD-TYPE 1, > > This was discussed on list, prior to adoption, please feel free to > review the archives. In summary, parsing TLVs is a complex > operation, particularly in hardware, and as such, a simple fixed > header provided an easy to implement metadata solution. The TLV > option is there as well but since the simplest case is needed as a > minimum, that is the mandatory piece. Adding TLV support (i.e. a > flexible parser) means you can probably support type-1 as well so > the MUST/SHOULD does not create an added burden. > > > > It looks more flexible to have variable length context header > for MD-TYPE 2. > > > > -Qin > > *From:*Linda Dunbar > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM > *To:* 'sfc@ietf.org '; 'Paul Quinn > (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri' > *Subject:* draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state > "MD-type = 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and > MD-type=0x1" as " SHOULD" > > Paul and Uri, > > The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: > > > > As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a > more reasonable approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. > the first 8 bytes) as the MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum > 0 context header (or 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 > should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a “SHOULD” support. > > Let’s face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won’t > need the all 16 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance > of packet fragmentation). > > Linda > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > From nobody Thu Nov 19 17:37:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0C241A1A57 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:37:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.785 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6uw7Wx26CZ6c for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:37:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 373C21A1A50 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:37:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAO59796; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:37:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.32) by lhreml405-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.242) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:37:26 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml401-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 09:37:15 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Thread-Topic: NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIzP8hJOUKGZbgUWwwbKO26FiBA== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:37:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5E0943CD-91DE-4E9C-BFF7-D0A3BDFC63AF@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5E0943CD-91DE-4E9C-BFF7-D0A3BDFC63AF@cisco.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.79.38] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848C0509nkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A090201.564E7957.0055, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: dc5ee88e81485647550609988ae36b79 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining 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PjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848C0509nkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 17:48:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 281C81A1A80 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:48:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWQoq_uSioww for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:48:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fr.alcatel-lucent.com (fr-hpgre-esg-01.alcatel-lucent.com [135.245.210.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F22D01A1A8C for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 17:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (unknown [135.5.2.63]) by Websense Email Security Gateway with ESMTPS id 9ED55B1FDB438; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:48:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from US70TWXCHHUB03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (us70twxchhub03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com [135.5.2.35]) by us70tusmtp1.zam.alcatel-lucent.com (GMO) with ESMTP id tAK1m1NQ004768 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:48:03 GMT Received: from US70UWXCHMBA03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([169.254.9.242]) by US70TWXCHHUB03.zam.alcatel-lucent.com ([135.5.2.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 20:48:02 -0500 From: "Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew)" To: "Joel M. Halpern" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5emPvL6Hp77kOGF+aJe36w6Z6kGlQwgABZLYD//7EdGg== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:48:01 +0000 Message-ID: <1221A079-FE93-41CE-BF9A-4284CCC6F780@alcatel-lucent.com> References: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net>, <564E77AF.9090905@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <564E77AF.9090905@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-SG X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , Qin Wu , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 01:48:10 -0000 I see both cases of Type 1 and Type 2 being present/used. I think fixed hea= der offers many advantages thus natural tendency will be to try to solve re= quirements with the metadata fixed header before considering TLVs.=20 Andrew Sent from my iPhone > On 19 Nov 2015, at 5:30 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >=20 > From where I sit, it seems likely that metadata will be needed in many, p= ossibly almost all, situations. >=20 > What is unclear to me is whether most of those cases can be dealt with re= asonably well by 4 fixed length fields, or are significantly better dealt w= ith by TLV structured metadata. >=20 > the reason I include the reasonably / significant caveat is that there ar= e clearly processing advantages if we can keep the header small and fixed. >=20 > Yours, > Joel >=20 >> On 11/19/15 8:14 PM, Bottorff, Paul wrote: >> Andrew: >>=20 >> I think the point here is that there may be a lot of applications which >> don=92t need either the fixed or TLV meta-data and therefore we should n= ot >> force implementation to support the fixed headers. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >> Paul >>=20 >> *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Dolganow, >> Andrew (Andrew) >> *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2015 4:57 PM >> *To:* Paul Quinn (paulq); Qin Wu >> *Cc:* uri.elzur@intel.com; sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar >> *Subject:* Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv >>=20 >> Agree with Paul. There were lengthy discussions in the past that led to >> the current version of the draft. I see no reason to re-open the >> decisions made before. >>=20 >> Andrew >>=20 >> On 2015-11-19, 2:01 PM, "sfc on behalf of Paul Quinn (paulq)" wrote: >>=20 >> Qin, >>=20 >> I've updated to the subject line to reflect the topic more >> accurately. Referring to "cisco" context headers is misleading, and >> frankly indicates a lack of understanding of how a document is adopte= d. >>=20 >> Further, and I'm sure the chairs will weigh in, but as an IETF >> participants, you should know that IETF procedure is _not_ vote >> based. The NSH draft was adopted based on working group consensus, >> and as such received significant review. Similarly, consensus is >> required for updates. Please read RFC2418, section 3.3 in particula= r. >>=20 >> On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, Qin Wu > > wrote: >>=20 >> +1, it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required >> for MD-TYPE 1, >>=20 >> This was discussed on list, prior to adoption, please feel free to >> review the archives. In summary, parsing TLVs is a complex >> operation, particularly in hardware, and as such, a simple fixed >> header provided an easy to implement metadata solution. The TLV >> option is there as well but since the simplest case is needed as a >> minimum, that is the mandatory piece. Adding TLV support (i.e. a >> flexible parser) means you can probably support type-1 as well so >> the MUST/SHOULD does not create an added burden. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> It looks more flexible to have variable length context header >> for MD-TYPE 2. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -Qin >>=20 >> *From:*Linda Dunbar >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM >> *To:* 'sfc@ietf.org '; 'Paul Quinn >> (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri' >> *Subject:* draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state >> "MD-type =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and >> MD-type=3D0x1" as " SHOULD" >>=20 >> Paul and Uri, >>=20 >> The Section 3.2 of draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says: >>=20 >> >>=20 >> As both MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a >> more reasonable approach is having the minimum common part (i.e. >> the first 8 bytes) as the MUST. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum >> 0 context header (or 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 >> should be a MUST support. And MD-TYPE 1 is a =93SHOULD=94 support= . >>=20 >> Let=92s face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won=92t >> need the all 16 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance >> of packet fragmentation). >>=20 >> Linda >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 19 18:28:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDEA1A1BE3 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:28:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.335 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ry1iGuPrKRRj for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:28:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 089961A1BDE for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:28:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEI99749; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:28:52 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.39) by lhreml402-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.241) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:28:50 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:28:38 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew)" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5emPvL6Hp77kOGF+aJe36w6Z6kIicg Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:28:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.79.38] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848C056Dnkgeml501mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0202.564E8565.0033, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: fa7feb271532237e817e07baeae5b362 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:28:58 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848C056Dnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksIEFuZHJldyBhbmQgUGF1bDoNCkl0IGxvb2tzIEkgbWlzc2VkIGEgbG90IG9mIGRpc2N1c3Np b24gcmVnYXJkaW5nIE5TSCBjb250ZXh0IGhlYWRlciBpbiB0aGUgcGFzdCwgdGhhbmtzIFBhdWwg dG8gcG9pbnQgbWUgdGhlIGFyY2hpdmUuDQpHZW5lcmFsbHkgc3BlYWtpbmcsIHRoZXJlIGlzIHRy YWRlb2ZmIGJldHdlZW4gcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UgYW5kIGZsZXhpYmlsaXR5Lg0KDQotUWluDQq3orz+ yMs6IERvbGdhbm93LCBBbmRyZXcgKEFuZHJldykgW21haWx0bzphbmRyZXcuZG9sZ2Fub3dAYWxj YXRlbC1sdWNlbnQuY29tXQ0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTXE6jEx1MIyMMjVIDg6NTcNCsrVvP7Iyzog UGF1bCBRdWlubiAocGF1bHEpOyBRaW4gV3UNCrOty806IHVyaS5lbHp1ckBpbnRlbC5jb207IHNm Y0BpZXRmLm9yZzsgTGluZGEgRHVuYmFyDQrW98ziOiBSZTogW3NmY10gTlNIIGNvbnRleHQgaGVh ZGVyczogZml4ZWQvdGx2DQoNCkFncmVlIHdpdGggUGF1bC4gIFRoZXJlIHdlcmUgbGVuZ3RoeSBk aXNjdXNzaW9ucyBpbiB0aGUgcGFzdCB0aGF0IGxlZCB0byB0aGUgY3VycmVudCB2ZXJzaW9uIG9m IHRoZSBkcmFmdC4gSSBzZWUgbm8gcmVhc29uIHRvIHJlLW9wZW4gdGhlIGRlY2lzaW9ucyBtYWRl IGJlZm9yZS4NCg0KQW5kcmV3DQoNCk9uIDIwMTUtMTEtMTksIDI6MDEgUE0sICJzZmMgb24gYmVo YWxmIG9mIFBhdWwgUXVpbm4gKHBhdWxxKSIgd3JvdGU6DQoNClFpbiwNCg0KSSd2ZSB1cGRhdGVk IHRvIHRoZSBzdWJqZWN0IGxpbmUgdG8gcmVmbGVjdCB0aGUgdG9waWMgbW9yZSBhY2N1cmF0ZWx5 LiAgUmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvICJjaXNjbyIgY29udGV4dCBoZWFkZXJzIGlzIG1pc2xlYWRpbmcsIGFu ZCBmcmFua2x5IGluZGljYXRlcyBhIGxhY2sgb2YgdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZyBvZiBob3cgYSBkb2N1 bWVudCBpcyBhZG9wdGVkLg0KDQpGdXJ0aGVyLCBhbmQgSSdtIHN1cmUgdGhlIGNoYWlycyB3aWxs IHdlaWdoIGluLCBidXQgYXMgYW4gSUVURiBwYXJ0aWNpcGFudHMsIHlvdSBzaG91bGQga25vdyB0 aGF0IElFVEYgcHJvY2VkdXJlIGlzIF9ub3RfIHZvdGUgYmFzZWQuICBUaGUgTlNIIGRyYWZ0IHdh cyBhZG9wdGVkIGJhc2VkIG9uIHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAgY29uc2Vuc3VzLCBhbmQgYXMgc3VjaCBy ZWNlaXZlZCBzaWduaWZpY2FudCByZXZpZXcuICBTaW1pbGFybHksIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBpcyByZXF1 aXJlZCBmb3IgdXBkYXRlcy4gICBQbGVhc2UgcmVhZCBSRkMyNDE4LCBzZWN0aW9uIDMuMyBpbiBw YXJ0aWN1bGFyLg0KDQoNCk9uIE5vdiAxOCwgMjAxNSwgYXQgMTA6MDcgUE0sIFFpbiBXdSA8Ymls bC53dUBodWF3ZWkuY29tPG1haWx0bzpiaWxsLnd1QGh1YXdlaS5jb20+PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KKzEs IGl0IGlzIG5vdCBjbGVhciB0byBtZSB3aHkgNCBjb250ZXh0IGhlYWRlcnMgTVVTVCBiZSByZXF1 aXJlZCBmb3IgTUQtVFlQRSAxLA0KDQpUaGlzIHdhcyBkaXNjdXNzZWQgb24gbGlzdCwgcHJpb3Ig dG8gYWRvcHRpb24sIHBsZWFzZSBmZWVsIGZyZWUgdG8gcmV2aWV3IHRoZSBhcmNoaXZlcy4gIElu IHN1bW1hcnksIHBhcnNpbmcgVExWcyBpcyBhIGNvbXBsZXggb3BlcmF0aW9uLCBwYXJ0aWN1bGFy bHkgaW4gaGFyZHdhcmUsIGFuZCBhcyBzdWNoLCBhIHNpbXBsZSBmaXhlZCBoZWFkZXIgcHJvdmlk ZWQgYW4gZWFzeSB0byBpbXBsZW1lbnQgbWV0YWRhdGEgc29sdXRpb24uICBUaGUgVExWIG9wdGlv biBpcyB0aGVyZSBhcyB3ZWxsIGJ1dCBzaW5jZSB0aGUgc2ltcGxlc3QgY2FzZSBpcyBuZWVkZWQg YXMgYSBtaW5pbXVtLCB0aGF0IGlzIHRoZSBtYW5kYXRvcnkgcGllY2UuICBBZGRpbmcgVExWIHN1 cHBvcnQgKGkuZS4gYSBmbGV4aWJsZSBwYXJzZXIpIG1lYW5zIHlvdSBjYW4gcHJvYmFibHkgc3Vw cG9ydCB0eXBlLTEgYXMgd2VsbCBzbyB0aGUgTVVTVC9TSE9VTEQgZG9lcyBub3QgY3JlYXRlIGFu IGFkZGVkIGJ1cmRlbi4NCg0KDQoNCkl0IGxvb2tzIG1vcmUgZmxleGlibGUgdG8gaGF2ZSB2YXJp YWJsZSBsZW5ndGggY29udGV4dCBoZWFkZXIgZm9yIE1ELVRZUEUgMi4NCg0KDQoNCg0KLVFpbg0K RnJvbTogTGluZGEgRHVuYmFyDQpTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIE5vdmVtYmVyIDE4LCAyMDE1IDU6 NDIgUE0NClRvOiAnc2ZjQGlldGYub3JnPG1haWx0bzpzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+JzsgJ1BhdWwgUXVp bm4gKHBhdWxxKSc7ICdFbHp1ciwgVXJpJw0KU3ViamVjdDogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1zZmMtbnNmLTAx OiBJdCBtYWtlcyBtb3JlIHNlbnNlIHRvIHN0YXRlICJNRC10eXBlID0gMHgyIiAoemVybyBvciBt b3JlIFZhcmlhYmxlKSBhcyAiTVVTVCIgYW5kIE1ELXR5cGU9MHgxIiBhcyAiIFNIT1VMRCINCg0K DQoNCg0KUGF1bCBhbmQgVXJpLA0KDQoNCg0KVGhlIFNlY3Rpb24gMy4yIG9mICBkcmFmdC1pZXRm LXNmYy1uc2YtMDEgc2F5czoNCg0KPGltYWdlMDAxLnBuZz4NCg0KDQoNCg0KDQpBcyBib3RoIE1E LXR5cGUgMSBhbmQgTUQtdHlwZSAyIGFyZSBzcGVjaWZpZWQgYnkgdGhlIGRyYWZ0LCBhIG1vcmUg cmVhc29uYWJsZSBhcHByb2FjaCBpcyBoYXZpbmcgdGhlIG1pbmltdW0gY29tbW9uIHBhcnQgKGku ZS4gdGhlIGZpcnN0IDggYnl0ZXMpIGFzIHRoZSBNVVNULiBBcyB0aGUgTUQtVFlQRSAyIGFsbG93 cyBtaW5pbXVtIDAgY29udGV4dCBoZWFkZXIgKG9yIDE2IGJ5dGVzIGNvbnRleHQgaGVhZGVyKSwg dGhlIE1ELVRZUEUgMiBzaG91bGQgYmUgYSBNVVNUIHN1cHBvcnQuIEFuZCBNRC1UWVBFIDEgaXMg YSChsFNIT1VMRKGxIHN1cHBvcnQuDQoNCg0KDQpMZXShr3MgZmFjZSBpdCwgdGhlIG1ham9yaXR5 IG9mIFNGQyBkZXBsb3ltZW50IHByb2JhYmx5IHdvbqGvdCBuZWVkIHRoZSBhbGwgMTYgYnl0ZXMg ImNvbnRleHQgaGVhZGVyIiAod2hpY2ggaGFzIGhpZ2hlciBjaGFuY2Ugb2YgcGFja2V0IGZyYWdt ZW50YXRpb24pLg0KDQoNCg0KDQpMaW5kYQ0KDQo= --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848C056Dnkgeml501mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Andrew and Paul:

It looks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context heade= r in the past, thanks Paul to point me the archive.

Generally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and fle= xibility.

 

-Qin

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Dolgano= w, Andrew (Andrew) [mailto:andrew.dolganow@alcatel-lucent.com]
=B7=A2= =CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2015=C4=EA11=D4=C220=C8=D5 8:57
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Paul Quinn (paulq); Qin Wu
=B3=AD=CB=CD: uri.elzur@intel.com; sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

 

Agree with Paul.  There were lengthy discussions in the past t= hat led to the current version of the draft. I see no reason to re-open the= decisions made before.

 

Andrew 

 

On 2015-11-19, 2:01 PM, "sfc on behalf of Paul Quinn (paulq)&q= uot; wrote:

 

Qin,

 

I've updated to the subject line to reflect the topic more accurate= ly.  Referring to "cisco" context headers is misleading, and= frankly indicates a lack of understanding of how a document is adopted.  

 

Further, and I'm sure the chairs will weigh in, but as an IETF part= icipants, you should know that IETF procedure is _not_ vote based.  Th= e NSH draft was adopted based on working group consensus, and as such received significant review.  Similarly, conse= nsus is required for updates.   Please read RFC2418, section 3.3 in pa= rticular.  

 

 

On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:07 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:

 

+1,= it is not clear to me why 4 context headers MUST be required for MD-TYPE 1= ,

 

This was discussed on list, prior to adoption, please feel free to = review the archives.  In summary, parsing TLVs is a complex operation,= particularly in hardware, and as such, a simple fixed header provided an easy to implement metadata solution.  The TL= V option is there as well but since the simplest case is needed as a minimu= m, that is the mandatory piece.  Adding TLV support (i.e. a flexible p= arser) means you can probably support type-1 as well so the MUST/SHOULD does not create an added burden.

 



It looks more flexible to have variable length context header for= MD-TYPE 2.

 

 



-Qin=

From: Linda Dunbar
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 5:42 PM
To: 'sfc@ietf.org'; 'Paul Quinn = (paulq)'; 'Elzur, Uri'
Subject: draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01: It makes more sense to state "M= D-type =3D 0x2" (zero or more Variable) as "MUST" and MD-typ= e=3D0x1" as " SHOULD"

 

 =

Paul a= nd Uri,

 =

The Se= ction 3.2 of  draft-ietf-sfc-nsf-01 says:

 

<image= 001.png>

 =

 <= /span>

As bot= h MD-type 1 and MD-type 2 are specified by the draft, a more reasonable app= roach is having the minimum common part (i.e. the first 8 bytes) as the MUS= T. As the MD-TYPE 2 allows minimum 0 context header (or 16 bytes context header), the MD-TYPE 2 should be a MUST suppor= t. And MD-TYPE 1 is a =A1=B0SHOULD=A1=B1 support.

 =

Let=A1= =AFs face it, the majority of SFC deployment probably won=A1=AFt need the a= ll 16 bytes "context header" (which has higher chance of packet f= ragmentation).

 =

 <= /span>

Linda<= o:p>

 

--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABA848C056Dnkgeml501mbschi_-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 18:47:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFDB1A21AE for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:47:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, CN_BODY_35=0.339, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QM7wjQWfbV3X for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 392081A21A8 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 18:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CEJ00888; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:47:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML408-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.39) by lhreml406-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:47:26 +0000 Received: from NKGEML501-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.12]) by nkgeml408-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:47:16 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "Joel M. Halpern" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5emPvL6Hp77kOGF+aJe36w6Z6kGlQw//9/QICAAJZ14A== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:47:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABD88@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> <564E77AF.9090905@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <564E77AF.9090905@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.136.79.38] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A0B0206.564E89BF.010F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.12, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: fa7feb271532237e817e07baeae5b362 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 02:47:33 -0000 LS0tLS3Tyrz+1K28/i0tLS0tDQq3orz+yMs6IHNmYyBbbWFpbHRvOnNmYy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYu b3JnXSC0+rHtIEpvZWwgTS4gSGFscGVybg0Kt6LLzcqxvOQ6IDIwMTXE6jEx1MIyMMjVIDk6MzAN CsrVvP7IyzogUWluIFd1DQqzrcvNOiB1cmkuZWx6dXJAaW50ZWwuY29tOyBzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmc7 IExpbmRhIER1bmJhcg0K1vfM4jogUmU6IFtzZmNdIE5TSCBjb250ZXh0IGhlYWRlcnM6IGZpeGVk L3Rsdg0KDQpGcm9tIHdoZXJlIEkgc2l0LCBpdCBzZWVtcyBsaWtlbHkgdGhhdCBtZXRhZGF0YSB3 aWxsIGJlIG5lZWRlZCBpbiBtYW55LCBwb3NzaWJseSBhbG1vc3QgYWxsLCBzaXR1YXRpb25zLg0K DQpXaGF0IGlzIHVuY2xlYXIgdG8gbWUgaXMgd2hldGhlciBtb3N0IG9mIHRob3NlIGNhc2VzIGNh biBiZSBkZWFsdCB3aXRoIHJlYXNvbmFibHkgd2VsbCBieSA0IGZpeGVkIGxlbmd0aCBmaWVsZHMs IG9yIGFyZSBzaWduaWZpY2FudGx5IGJldHRlciBkZWFsdCB3aXRoIGJ5IFRMViBzdHJ1Y3R1cmVk IG1ldGFkYXRhLg0KDQpbUWluXTpUaGF0J3MgbXkgcG9pbnQsIHNvcnJ5IG5vdCBtYWtlIHRoaXMg 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From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: Qin Wu Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5ejy7hwshPJkSenz9F/5cNK56klIsAgADIkYA= Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:26:30 +0000 Message-ID: <36EF1E54-A0D8-46CE-AF4F-EEDE873123E3@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.231] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_36EF1E54A0D846CEAF4FEEDE873123E3ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "Dolganow, Andrew \(Andrew\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:26:34 -0000 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(xch-aln-017.cisco.com [173.36.7.27]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tALMPIat012294 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 21 Nov 2015 22:25:18 GMT Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) by XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (173.36.7.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:25:17 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sat, 21 Nov 2015 16:25:18 -0600 From: "Ken Gray (kegray)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9T1lmHHc0DUEGZ5S7afLAxI54/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAA8u2AgALxP4CAAbuzgIBgtq8A Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 22:25:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93300539567F@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <70ABF9A1-38A5-4A41-B533-BDF607E186C2@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933005396026@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933005396026@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.86.246.22] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <9B10DBB48C76234FB984878A6985036D@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2015 22:25:23 -0000 I have to say the argument here is bit confusing, I'm trying to parse it. The SFP results from parsing the constraints of the SFC. There was some architectural relaxation in the SFP definition. The original idea of the unconstrained hop was not that it was a blind draw, but rather it had a local heuristic for selecting which of many functions (probably the SAME functions) it supported (for HA, load balancing or other practical reasons where we didn't want to maintain the knowledge in a central repository of the state of those functions). An SFP with no constraints DOESN'T exist ...a PATH is a constraint. To contrive a service chain that doesn't care about order and arbitrarily selects the path has to assume that every junction in the path could support all the functions required in the chain - which is a constraint itself BTW, otherwise you have a blind pinball machine. In that contrivance, if you do have all the functions at every hop, you essentially have a huge load-balancer and not really a service chain. Perhaps the argument is for the capability of the SFCID has to be passed in the data plane to enable some sort of finer clue in a derived path at what otherwise was (by intent, for a number of different use cases) a loose hop in the resolution. In order to have selected the loose hop SFF in the first place, I'd argue you probably needed to know that it had the capability of fulfilling the request - otherwise, again, we're shooting blindly in the dark. In this case the SCID then provides some further granularity in function selection that couldn't be expressed as an externally addressable entity in policy by the SFF/policy point (a "low latency" function or "normal latency" mixed together with a local heuristic for knowing which is which) - otherwise, we would have resolved it instead of paying the tax. Possible, but a HUGE stretch, because it assumes a highly connected and cognizant SFF (it knows the policy meaning and provides enough information to the general policy store so that it can be selected for the loose hop in the first place) that can't create logically addressable associations for finer discrimination of it's resources. It seems that that sort of "broken implementation" isn't worth a permanent tax on everyone. If the SFF is THAT hooked into the entire policy schema that it can act that independently, why not make it re-classify (it should see the same classifier mappings to SCIDs as other nodes of it's class), associate with an SCID and get on with whatever local resolution is appropriate (in it's highly independent mind). Again, looking for a deployment angle that is non-rhetorical and not broken that would merit such a tax. >Hi Carlos, > >As I mentioned in my previous message to Joel, the control plane draft >DOES NOT mandate any IDs. It lists a set of information that is needed to >be instructed via control plane interfaces. I'm arguing that not only >SFPs are needed to be communicated to the control points, but also >service chains.=20 > >Please refer to the excerpt from the data plane arch I included in one of >my messages.=20 > >FWIW, there is a ticket for the NSH specification draft since almost 5 >months: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/1 > >Cheers, >Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >> Envoy=E9 : dimanche 20 septembre 2015 05:02 >> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >> Cc : Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>operates >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>=20 >> Med, >>=20 >> It seems to me you are reading what you want to read from the >>architecture >> and data plane documents, and not what it's actually there. >>=20 >> Where are service chain IDs within the data plane? >>=20 >> Thanks, >>=20 >> Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro. >> Excuze typofraphicak errows >>=20 >> > On Sep 18, 2015, at 02:06, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Joel, >> > >> > The excerpt I provided from the arch draft clearly shows that extreme >> cases are allowed: non-constrained SFCs, fully constrained SFCs, and any >> variation in between. The control plane should be able to accommodate >>all >> those cases. >> > >> > The data plane draft is also explicit there is a binding between the >> service chain and its SFPs. The control plane relies on that ground for >> the requirements it derives for the interfaces that are in scope. It >>does >> not mandate that correlation should be transported in packets, but it >> identifies this is a piece of information that is needed to be >> communicated via control interfaces. >> > >> > The document DOES NOT mandate any IDs. >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Med >> > >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> >> De : Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >> >> Envoy=E9 : jeudi 17 septembre 2015 17:37 >> >> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc- >> control- >> >> plane@tools.ietf.org >> >> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >> >> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates >> >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> >> >> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service Chaining work >> that >> >> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs within >>the >> >> data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within the control >> >> plane or above, and would be driven by requirements other than the >>data >> >> plane. When I look at this document, all of the requirements that >>talk >> >> about service function chain IDs can be accurately captured, in terms >> of >> >> data plane requirements, by service function path IDs. Thus, the >> >> requirement that the data plane has is to see such path IDs. Yes, in >> >> some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. They are still >>path >> >> IDs. >> >> >> >> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work with >>chain >> >> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >> >> >> >> Yours, >> >> Joel M. Halpern >> >> >> >>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >> >>> Re-, >> >>> >> >>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data plane >> >> architecture document. >> >>> >> >>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >> >>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >> >>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >> >>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the abstract >> SFC. >> >>> (4) Some others may impose either loose or strict routes. >> >>> >> >>> Requiring SFP IDs for deployments that do not impose any constraint >>on >> >> the SFC is an oxymoron because according to the data plane >> architecture, >> >> an SFP is a "constrained version of the original SFC". >> >>> >> >>> For deployments that do not impose any constraint on the abstract >>SFC, >> >> but adopt a fully distributed SFC forwarding strategy, a chain >> identifier >> >> is sufficient. >> >>> >> >>> Because an SFP may be associated with several SFCs, the identifier >>of >> >> the SFC may be required to associate an SFP with its SFC. >> >>> >> >>> Below an excerpt from the arch draft, fwiw: >> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >>> A service function path (SFP) is a mechanism used by service >> >> chaining >> >>> to express the result of applying more granular policy and >> >>> operational constraints to the abstract requirements of a service >> >>> chain (SFC). This architecture does not mandate the degree of >> >>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC- >> >> enabled >> >>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly which >> >> SFF >> >>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, while >> >> other >> >>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions about >> >> the >> >>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >> >>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >> >>> >> >>> As an example of such an intermediate specificity, there may be >>two >> >>> SFPs associated with a given SFC, where one SFP specifies that >>any >> >>> order of SFF and SF may be used as long as it is within data >>center >> >>> 1, and where the second SFP allows the same latitude, but only >> >> within >> >>> data center 2. >> >>> >> >>> Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation >> (depending >> >>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a >>constrained >> >>> version of the original SFC. Since multiple policies may apply >>to >> >>> different traffic that uses the same SFC, it also follows that >> there >> >>> may be multiple SFPs may be associated with a single SFC. >> >>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> Med >> >>> >> >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >> >>>> De : Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >> >>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 16 septembre 2015 19:15 >> >>>> =C0 : sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.or= g; >> >>>> BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >> >>>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >> >>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> >> operates >> >>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >>>> >> >>>> Given that we have an adopted architecture that specifies that the >> >>>> system should function in terms of service function paths, I would >> >>>> prefer that the control requirements draft align with the >> architecture >> >>>> in that regard. We are, as far as I know, specifying the >> requirements >> >>>> for control mechanisms in support of the architecture and data >>plane >> we >> >>>> standardize. >> >>>> >> >>>> Yours, >> >>>> Joel >> >>>> >> >>>>> On 9/16/15 9:46 AM, sfc issue tracker wrote: >> >>>>> #15: Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The draft includes this note: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [[Note: The question of whether the data plane operates >> >> just >> >>>> in >> >>>>> terms of SFP IDs or needs SFC IDs, as described in this >> >>>> version >> >>>>> of the draft, is still under discussion among the >> >> authors.]] >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The current version of the draft is more generic as it does not >> >>>> preclude >> >>>>> manipulating service chains based on an identifier of the chain. >> >> Also, >> >>>> it >> >>>>> does not assume that the SFP indirection level is mandatory (SFP >> >> IDs). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Note the current version accommodates various deployment >>contexts: >> >>>> e.g., >> >>>>> rely solely on a chain ID, rely on a chain ID and a SFP, supply >>a >> >>>> strict >> >>>>> path, supply a loose path, etc. The purpose is to not dictate >> >>>> deployment >> >>>>> choices on how forwarding is actually achieved within an SFC- >> >> enabled >> >>>>> domain. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> An identifier of the chain is the minimum information that is >> >> needed, >> >>>> but >> >>>>> other information may be supplied as well. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Feedback from the WG about which information to supply is >>needed. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> FWIW, there is a ticket issue for this issue for the nsh spec. >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > sfc mailing list >> > sfc@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > >_______________________________________________ >sfc mailing list >sfc@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Sun Nov 22 02:04:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D811B2CE7 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 02:04:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XNQ_Xf1DtbxZ for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 02:04:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from tama50.ecl.ntt.co.jp (tama50.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.147]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5291B2CDE for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 02:04:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from vc1.ecl.ntt.co.jp (vc1.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.86.153]) by tama50.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAMA4WPj032689; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:04:32 +0900 Received: from vc1.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vc1.ecl.ntt.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0715F623; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:04:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from imail3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (imail3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.5.248]) by vc1.ecl.ntt.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772BE5F611; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:04:32 +0900 (JST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([129.60.13.28]) by imail3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAMA4L3e024804; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:04:32 +0900 From: Shunsuke Homma References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA0493@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20151119073209.594948115.75564.49932@sandvine.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04C4@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564DDB0C.7030001@joelhalpern.com> Message-ID: <56519338.7020008@lab.ntt.co.jp> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:04:40 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <564DDB0C.7030001@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: "Joel M. Halpern" , mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Dave Dolson , "sfc@ietf.org" X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 10:04:39 -0000 Hi, I and authors had analyzed a pattern in which two packets having the same SPI traverse different RSPs, and the result is described in section "Service Paths Selection Patterns" of "draft-homma-sfc-forwarding-analysis-04." https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-homma-sfc-forwarding-methods-analysis/ We assume that dynamic paths selection will be useful for large-scale networks because it enables operators to separate control and management for each DC or domain. In other words, it enables to avoid using a "super controller" in large-scaled networks such as carrier grade networks. IMHO, there are surely situations in which conveying SPI as abstract information in data-plane is beneficial, and some SFFs should be available to select the next hops dynamically. Thanks, Shunsuke On 2015/11/19 23:22, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Can you please describe some situation where there is increased value in > having SFC information in the data plane. Having the coordination > within the control components is understandable and usually necessary. > But that is out of scope for this document and this working group. > In what circumstance does the increased flexibility, which introduces > additional complexity in the data plane, add value? > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/19/15 2:41 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >> Re-, >> >> Yes, but still there is a record somewhere to link the name to one or >> a list of IP addresses. That record can be maintained in a central >> entity or be local (an SFF can decide which exact SF instance it can >> solicited (LB cases, redundancy group, etc.). >> >> What I'm asking for is more freedom in the cp architecture to make the >> resolution when it is appropriate: either centralized, distributed, or >> a mix (hierarchical context). >> >> Cheers, >> Med >> >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com] >>> Envoyé : jeudi 19 novembre 2015 08:32 >>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>> operates >>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>> Med, >>> I would say that the SFC has no representation in the data plane (like >>> host name has no representation in IP routing.) >>> ‎Both are abstractions. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> Original Message >>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:12 AM >>> To: Dave Dolson >>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>> operates >>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>> >>> >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> I fully agree with this analogy: >>> >>> == >>> SFC <--> destination host name >>> SFP <--> destination IP address >>> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >>> == >>> >>> Hence the need for the control plane to instruct the underlying data >>> plane >>> elements with required information at each of these three levels. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>> >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Dave Dolson >>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 20:34 >>>> À : Jim Guichard (jguichar) >>>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>> operates >>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>> >>>> [reduced distribution to Jim & sfc list] >>>> >>>> Jim, >>>> I think your description is helpful. Can we find a place for this in >>>> the >>>> docs? >>>> >>>> I don't think I can understand it without referring to the concrete >>>> NSH, >>>> however. >>>> >>>> >>>> If I understand correctly, the following are true: >>>> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are the same, they are on the same SFP. >>>> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are different, they are on different >>> SFPs. >>>> - although two packets have the same SPI, they may traverse different >>>> RSPs. >>>> >>>> - when thinking of the data-plane and south-bound interfaces C1 thru >>>> C4, >>>> the SFC concept doesn't exist. >>>> (SFC is just a north-interface concept like, "chain A provides a >>>> firewall and a NAT") >>>> >>>> Have I got it right? >>>> >>>> >>>> I also think the following *analogy* with routing can be drawn: >>>> SFC <--> destination host name >>>> SFP <--> destination IP address >>>> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >>>> >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Guichard >>>> (jguichar) >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:18 AM >>>> To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Paul Quinn (paulq); >>>> draft-ietf-sfc- >>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel Halpern; Joel M. Halpern >>>> Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>> operates >>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>> >>>> [Chair hat off …] >>>> >>>> I have to say I am struggling to see the “issue†in this thread that >>> needs >>>> to be addressed other than confusion over SFC vs SFP definition; from a >>>> data plane perspective it is *very* clear that SFP/SI identifiers are >>> used >>>> as the lookup key into a forwarding construct that may contain 1:n >>> number >>>> of next-hops (SFFs, SFs). In some cases that lookup will point to a >>> single >>>> next-hop, in others multiple next-hops. In *all* cases this has >>> absolutely >>>> nothing to do with the SFC as each representation of that SFC is >>> uniquely >>>> identified by an SFP-id. >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> On 11/18/15, 10:19 AM, "sfc on behalf of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, Med, >>>>> >>>>> I also referred to other parts of the document, when I wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>>> plane² >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For example, I am not sure I understand what this means: >>>>> >>>>> " o Populate SFC forwarding policy tables of involved SFC data >>> plane² >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Or at: >>>>> " o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC- >>> specific >>>>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every >>>>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the >>>>> existing >>>>> SFCs." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My comment is that those should be ³SFP" >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Med Boucadair >>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:03 AM >>>>> To: Carlos Pignataro >>>>> Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , >>>>> "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" >>>>> , Joel Halpern >>>>> , sfc issue tracker , >>>>> "sfc@ietf.org" , Joel Halpern >>>>> >>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>> operates >>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>> >>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>> >>>>>> There is not SFC ID in the core text of the control plane draft. >>>>>> >>>>>> The text you quoted is part of an appendix with a note that clearly >>>>>> states this is not discussed. A corresponding issue record has been >>>>>> recorded to seek for more feedback on that appendix. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Med >>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 15:35 >>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>>>> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>> M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Joel Halpern >>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>> operates >>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:08 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is an open issue for this draft, so it is normal to continue >>>>>>> discussing it. I don't know how you can conclude in advance that we >>>> are >>>>>>> circling. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Discussion is great, Med. But my Œwe are circling' comment (not in >>>>>>> advanced, but already evident) is because I saw the same questions, >>>>>>> same >>>>>>> arguments, and same answers as before. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "strongly believe" is not a technical argument, btw. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, I believe so on technical grounds! Most of which have already >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> said, so I do not want to contribute to the circular discussion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>>>> plane², >>>>>>> and ³SFC IDs². The architecture says that SFC are made of abstract >>>>>>> service >>>>>>> functions. There¹s no actual forwarding in this abstract conceptual >>>>>>> model. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The control-plane draft says ³Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP is >>>>>>> "yellow²,², and my point again is that in the data plane an SFP has >>> an >>>>>>> identifier (which identifies the SFP (SFP-ID) and is not the >>>> identifier >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> something else, it¹s not a Topology-ID, it¹s not a SKU, it¹s not a >>>> URI, >>>>>>> it¹s not a Family Name, and not an SFC ID), and the control (and >>>>>>> policy) >>>>>>> plane can of course work with SFCs. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My $0.02. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 11:52 >>>>>>>>> À : Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf- >>> sfc- >>>>>>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am a bit baffled to see this thread again ‹ it appears the >>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>> restarted to continue in circles. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no need for >>> SFC >>>>>>>>> identification passed down ‹ there is no provisioning of SFCs >>>>>>> southbound. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (Almost) every instance of ³SFC² in the control-plane >>> requirements >>>>>>> draft >>>>>>>>> should really say ³SFP². There is no use of talking about SFCs >>>>>>> towards >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> data plane. The relationship between chains and paths is a policy >>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>>> which belongs in the policy/control itself, but not out of there. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is no different than what I said a few months ago on the >>> same >>>>>>> topic. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control >>>>>>> system >>>>>>>>> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible >>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>>> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful >>> constraints, >>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> is provisioned has to be the SFP. >>>>>>>>>> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is >>>>>>> isomorphic >>>>>>>>> to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the >>>>>>> result >>>>>>>>> is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the >>>> SFC >>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>> be handled. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>> plane >>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>>>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >>>>>>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc >>> issue >>>>>>>>>>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>> plane >>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more >>> than >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" >>>>>>> refers >>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) >>> Does >>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> make sense to me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation >>>>>>> (depending >>>>>>>>>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a >>>> constrained >>>>>>>>>> version of the original SFC. " >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the >>> original >>>>>>> SFC. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or >>> to >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path >>>>>>> computation >>>>>>>>> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the >>>> SFC >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained >>>>>>> version >>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> the original SFC"! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >>>>>>>>>>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be >>>>>>> visited. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in >>> the >>>>>>>>>>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO >>>> not >>>>>>>>> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a >>>>>>> non- >>>>>>>>> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>> plane >>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> RFC7665 says the following: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>>>>>>>>>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC- >>>>>>> enabled >>>>>>>>>>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly >>>> which >>>>>>> SFF >>>>>>>>>>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, >>> while >>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions >>>> about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >>>>>>>>>>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision >>>>>>> required >>>>>>>>>>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It >>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>>>> that information is no more than the service chain itself >>>> (without >>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>> constraints). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a >>>>>>> loose >>>>>>>>>>> path >>>>>>>>>>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a >>>>>>> domain >>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. >>>>>>> Nevertheless, >>>>>>>>>>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoyé : >>>>>>> vendredi >>>>>>>>>>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 À : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR >>> Mohamed >>>>>>>>>>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>>>>>>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>>>>>>>>>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC >>> IDs, >>>>>>> SFP >>>>>>>>> IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Joel, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I concur. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship >>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even >>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>> likely >>>>>>>>>>> "policy" >>>>>>>>>>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>>>>>>>>>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's >>> consistent >>>>>>>>>>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service >>> Chaining >>>>>>>>>>>>> work that >>>>>>>>>>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs >>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements >>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >>>>>>>>>>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >>>>>>>>>>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by >>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>> function path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such >>>> path >>>>>>> IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. >>> They >>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> still path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work >>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> chain >>>>>>>>>>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re-, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data >>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>> architecture document. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > > -- ---------------------------------- Shunsuke Homma TEL: +81 422 59 3486 FAX: +81 422 60 7460 NTT Network Service System Labs. Musashino city, Tokyo, Japan ---------------------------------- From nobody Sun Nov 22 07:09:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121CD1A8A9A for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:09:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qkaaEXYaQnJV for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:09:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C5791A8A99 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 07:09:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1867; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448204985; x=1449414585; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=dKenrvQKLSdCpngU9xWfO22SjUFzCVna+vRiaNc2R1M=; b=bO/jzgwd8kUtOH6H6u//WIzXI9AbRkl7JKG3sAtmmpQx0gwYeb8Dd3xX ZYZdj8fgmvx+34gPVbVAcAcpjYcajE8qfHOLusglILbMSaq0xvjOmdad+ 4I1TYdsg8NOzq/2ABFN6BL6kGlPx2k737TXRBUpd1DR7Al/tlni3tWqoW 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CvAgBB2VFW/4ENJK1UCoM7U3AFvwsBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFlIYcSOBQBAQEBAQEBfwuEOzpRAT5CJwQuiBMNnmSfOAEBAQEGAQEBAQEBARy?= =?us-ascii?q?GVIIQhx6DdIEVBZZQAYUjiA2BW0mDd4hMhQ+IVAEfAQFCghEdgVaFFoEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,332,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="49172830" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 22 Nov 2015 15:09:44 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (xch-rcd-010.cisco.com [173.37.102.20]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAMF9iSA001576 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:09:44 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (173.37.102.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:09:44 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:09:37 -0600 From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RSP open item Thread-Index: AQHRJTfNwS9raGPDEUqKf86XkpwNZA== Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:09:37 +0000 Message-ID: <32E21273-F3FC-4D7E-9CBB-C213E29ED0B6@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.230] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <6D72EEE3EB531B46A953334AC82F2338@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:09:47 -0000 SFCers, We need resolve the concept of the RSPID that's been discussed on list, and= listed in the NSH draft as an "open item". Currently, NSH specifies a ser= vice path ID which is used to i) identify the service path, ii) select the = required overlay encap + next hops. The arch and the NSH drafts do not spe= cify the granularity of the path ID: it can represent as specific a path as= the control plane wants to assign. In the current open source implementat= ion, we've been using it as an explicit indication of which SFF and SFs are= composed to create a path. Having said that, I know some folks have presented a case where further gra= nularity might be required: an explicit indication of specific instances wi= thin the scope of a SFP. I think we have a solution for each NSH MD Type,= although we might have slightly different terminology, the desired functio= nality will be equivalent: MD-type 1: As you know the metadata in type 1 is opaque, so in theory an im= plementation could assign any additional identifiers to the metadata. Ther= e are also a couple of drafts that provide allocation guidelines, the data = center one specifically allows for an additional identifier -- a flow ID of= sorts -- that can be used for dataplane granularity. MD-type 2: As per the recently submitted draft (http://datatracker.ietf.or= g/doc/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv/), a flow id specific TLV has been defined. = This can be used, as needed, within the dataplane to further identify a flo= w, and therefore be used for specific instance selection, load balancing an= d such. So, given these two options, I think we can, with the existing drafts, prov= ide the needed functionality for the RSPID use cases. If we get consensus,= we can update NSH accordingly so please weigh in, on list, as needed. Thanks Paul= From nobody Sun Nov 22 08:53:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1F6D1AC446 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:53:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uyGwZ7G0OtCN for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-6.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-6.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.56.71]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4D371AC445 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-6.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.92]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 08:53:16 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Thread-Index: AQHRJUZHJepkeKscxU+YywTFucRfPQ== Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 16:53:15 +0000 Message-ID: <0E02A6BB-FC36-4B92-875F-0E2F8CA10127@affirmednetworks.com> References: <32E21273-F3FC-4D7E-9CBB-C213E29ED0B6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <32E21273-F3FC-4D7E-9CBB-C213E29ED0B6@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 16:53:18 -0000 I'm in agreement with this approach. However some of the terminology aroun= d SFPID is confusing, especially where part of the SFPID's role is to "sele= ct the next hops", as stated below. The phrase is certainly truthful, but = perhaps inadequate. When considering a loosely specified approach with al= lowed late binding, the phrase would be more evocative as "select the eligi= ble next hops (I.e., one or more service function instances for each abstra= ct service function specified in the chain)". This would allow for another= explanatory sentence that makes it explicit that in some deployments, ther= e may be exactly one eligible service function instance in each position of= the chain to satisfy the SFP (i.e. Strictly specified).=20 Ron > On Nov 22, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >=20 > SFCers, >=20 > We need resolve the concept of the RSPID that's been discussed on list, a= nd listed in the NSH draft as an "open item". Currently, NSH specifies a s= ervice path ID which is used to i) identify the service path, ii) select th= e required overlay encap + next hops. The arch and the NSH drafts do not s= pecify the granularity of the path ID: it can represent as specific a path = as the control plane wants to assign. In the current open source implement= ation, we've been using it as an explicit indication of which SFF and SFs a= re composed to create a path. >=20 > Having said that, I know some folks have presented a case where further g= ranularity might be required: an explicit indication of specific instances = within the scope of a SFP. I think we have a solution for each NSH MD Typ= e, although we might have slightly different terminology, the desired funct= ionality will be equivalent: >=20 > MD-type 1: As you know the metadata in type 1 is opaque, so in theory an = implementation could assign any additional identifiers to the metadata. Th= ere are also a couple of drafts that provide allocation guidelines, the dat= a center one specifically allows for an additional identifier -- a flow ID = of sorts -- that can be used for dataplane granularity. >=20 > MD-type 2: As per the recently submitted draft (http://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv/), a flow id specific TLV has been defined.= This can be used, as needed, within the dataplane to further identify a f= low, and therefore be used for specific instance selection, load balancing = and such. >=20 > So, given these two options, I think we can, with the existing drafts, pr= ovide the needed functionality for the RSPID use cases. If we get consensu= s, we can update NSH accordingly so please weigh in, on list, as needed. >=20 > Thanks > Paul > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Sun Nov 22 09:50:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36CA81ACDA5 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:50:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y2EPPq785duH for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C28A71ACDAA for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 09:50:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=31894; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448214622; x=1449424222; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=S/DlL5bxr09wAV77y7xzBrMy7/+Qa9W3i8EcsCAlDrI=; b=Lh61UfwcWAkf9gWVwAYVVTne7udhQoQPWcScNntyER9KPfLGnwafy7AR sdwr30JsoMgECwy8ubHVTD5mPPXQjuC5gXZSSaisbjwf0Eloj9V1ozwCt 6Nnxha+P+BmK5fs3hhYcj4j0G5rG7h0SG8ZUHPEadKYVmASZbrCq7OW4u A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ACAgBm/1FW/5xdJa1egztTb78RAQ2BY?= =?us-ascii?q?gMXDIVsAhyBBjgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEDAQEBARcJBA0zBwQHBQcEAgEGAhE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAgEBAQECAiMDAgICJQsUAQIGCAIEDgUbiAsIDZEGnTWPRgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBARQEgQGFU4IQgm6EKUiDBC+BFQEEh0eFV4kyAYUjgnKFG4FbhEC?= =?us-ascii?q?SPoNxAR8BAUKCER0WgUByAYUqAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,333,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="52669930" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 22 Nov 2015 17:50:20 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (xch-aln-002.cisco.com [173.36.7.12]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAMHoKqh011063 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sun, 22 Nov 2015 17:50:20 GMT Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 11:50:19 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com ([173.36.7.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 11:50:19 -0600 From: "Ken Gray (kegray)" To: Shunsuke Homma Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9T1lmHHc0DUEGZ5S7afLAxI54/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAFwtgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgP//0VdAgABtE4D//7OLsIAABPIAgABkLwD//99/YAAjTacA//+xwxqAAGcfAIAAb/kAgARvFACAAB2F/Q== Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 17:50:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA0493@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20151119073209.594948115.75564.49932@sandvine.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04C4@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564DDB0C.7030001@joelhalpern.com>,<56519338.7020008@lab.ntt.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <56519338.7020008@lab.ntt.co.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Dave Dolson Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 17:50:27 -0000 U2VlIG15IGVhcmxpZXIgcmVzcG9uc2UuICBGb3IgdGhlDQpTRkMgSUQgdG8gaGF2ZSBhbnkgbWVh bmluZywgdGhlIGludGVycHJldGluZyBub2RlIHdvdWxkIGJlIGhvb2tlZCB0byB0aGUgc2FtZSBw b2xpY3kgc3lzdGVtIC0gb3RoZXJ3aXNlIGl0J3MgYSByYW5kb20gdmFyaWFibGUuICBJIGp1c3Qg ZmluZCBpdCBhIHN0cmV0Y2ggdG8gaGF2ZSB0aGUgY2FwYWJpbGl0aWVzIHJlcXVpcmVkIGZvciBt YWludGFpbmluZyBUSEFUIGZ1bmN0aW9uYWxpdHkgYnV0IGJlaW5nIHNlbGVjdGl2ZWx5IGluY2Fw YWJsZSBvZiBtYWludGFpbmluZyB0aGUgY2xhc3NpZmljYXRpb24gdGFibGUgdGhhdCBtYXBwZWQg dG8gdGhlIFNGQyBJRCAodGhlIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGlvbiBvZiB3aGljaCwgbGlrZSB0aGUgU0ZDIElE 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Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C6D1B2F80 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:42:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.678 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.678 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YwMM92JAlBvj for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tama50.ecl.ntt.co.jp (tama50.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.147]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF001B2F7F for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 19:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from vc2.ecl.ntt.co.jp (vc2.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.86.154]) by tama50.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAN3gBN3011349; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:42:11 +0900 Received: from vc2.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vc2.ecl.ntt.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 886105F594; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:42:11 +0900 (JST) Received: from imail3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (imail3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.5.248]) by vc2.ecl.ntt.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772235F58E; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:42:11 +0900 (JST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([129.60.13.28]) by imail3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAN3g3o2015018; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:42:11 +0900 References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA0493@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <20151119073209.594948115.75564.49932@sandvine.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04C4@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <564DDB0C.7030001@joelhalpern.com> <56519338.7020008@lab.ntt.co.jp> From: Shunsuke Homma Message-ID: <56528B1E.7040103@lab.ntt.co.jp> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:42:22 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: "Ken Gray (kegray)" X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Dave Dolson , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 03:42:20 -0000 Hi Ken, Of course, I don't think every SFF decides the next hop dynamically. It will cause significant complexity of the control. I think that use of "dynamic SFF" should be restrictive rather than every SFF should be dynamic SFF. What I want to say is that dynamic paths selection should not be excluded in standard if there are some situations in which it is beneficial. I'm worrying that it will be difficult to manage end-to-end paths across multiple domains completely in large-scale network, and I think that distribution of control and management will be required for more scalable and flexible service chaining mechanism. (I also assume that NSH may be over-spec in small network from viewpoint of just transport.) Shunsuke On 2015/11/23 2:50, Ken Gray (kegray) wrote: > See my earlier response. For the > SFC ID to have any meaning, the interpreting node would be hooked to the same policy system - otherwise it's a random variable. I just find it a stretch to have the capabilities required for maintaining THAT functionality but being selectively incapable of maintaining the classification table that mapped to the SFC ID (the distribution of which, like the SFC ID, is amenable to distributed control) - which was apparently the capability of a similarly "gifted" policy node somewhere upstream in the chain - is a dysfunctional arrangement (of capabilities for a node) that shouldn't be encouraged by a general tax. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 22, 2015, at 5:04 AM, Shunsuke Homma wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I and authors had analyzed a pattern in which two packets having the same SPI traverse different RSPs, and the result is described in section "Service Paths Selection Patterns" of "draft-homma-sfc-forwarding-analysis-04." >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-homma-sfc-forwarding-methods-analysis/ >> >> We assume that dynamic paths selection will be useful for large-scale networks because it enables operators to separate control and management for each DC or domain. In other words, it enables to avoid using a "super controller" in large-scaled networks such as carrier grade networks. >> >> IMHO, there are surely situations in which conveying SPI as abstract information in data-plane is beneficial, and some SFFs should be available to select the next hops dynamically. >> >> Thanks, >> Shunsuke >> >>> On 2015/11/19 23:22, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> Can you please describe some situation where there is increased value in >>> having SFC information in the data plane. Having the coordination >>> within the control components is understandable and usually necessary. >>> But that is out of scope for this document and this working group. >>> In what circumstance does the increased flexibility, which introduces >>> additional complexity in the data plane, add value? >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>>> On 11/19/15 2:41 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>> Re-, >>>> >>>> Yes, but still there is a record somewhere to link the name to one or >>>> a list of IP addresses. That record can be maintained in a central >>>> entity or be local (an SFF can decide which exact SF instance it can >>>> solicited (LB cases, redundancy group, etc.). >>>> >>>> What I'm asking for is more freedom in the cp architecture to make the >>>> resolution when it is appropriate: either centralized, distributed, or >>>> a mix (hierarchical context). >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Med >>>> >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>> De : Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com] >>>>> Envoyé : jeudi 19 novembre 2015 08:32 >>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>> operates >>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>> >>>>> Med, >>>>> I would say that the SFC has no representation in the data plane (like >>>>> host name has no representation in IP routing.) >>>>> ‎Both are abstractions. >>>>> >>>>> -Dave >>>>> >>>>> Original Message >>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:12 AM >>>>> To: Dave Dolson >>>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>> operates >>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Dave, >>>>> >>>>> I fully agree with this analogy: >>>>> >>>>> == >>>>> SFC <--> destination host name >>>>> SFP <--> destination IP address >>>>> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >>>>> == >>>>> >>>>> Hence the need for the control plane to instruct the underlying data >>>>> plane >>>>> elements with required information at each of these three levels. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Med >>>>> >>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>> De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Dave Dolson >>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 20:34 >>>>>> À : Jim Guichard (jguichar) >>>>>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>> operates >>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> [reduced distribution to Jim & sfc list] >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim, >>>>>> I think your description is helpful. Can we find a place for this in >>>>>> the >>>>>> docs? >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think I can understand it without referring to the concrete >>>>>> NSH, >>>>>> however. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> If I understand correctly, the following are true: >>>>>> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are the same, they are on the same SFP. >>>>>> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are different, they are on different >>>>> SFPs. >>>>>> - although two packets have the same SPI, they may traverse different >>>>>> RSPs. >>>>>> >>>>>> - when thinking of the data-plane and south-bound interfaces C1 thru >>>>>> C4, >>>>>> the SFC concept doesn't exist. >>>>>> (SFC is just a north-interface concept like, "chain A provides a >>>>>> firewall and a NAT") >>>>>> >>>>>> Have I got it right? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I also think the following *analogy* with routing can be drawn: >>>>>> SFC <--> destination host name >>>>>> SFP <--> destination IP address >>>>>> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -Dave >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Guichard >>>>>> (jguichar) >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:18 AM >>>>>> To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Paul Quinn (paulq); >>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc- >>>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel Halpern; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>> Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>> operates >>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> [Chair hat off …] >>>>>> >>>>>> I have to say I am struggling to see the “issue†in this thread that >>>>> needs >>>>>> to be addressed other than confusion over SFC vs SFP definition; from a >>>>>> data plane perspective it is *very* clear that SFP/SI identifiers are >>>>> used >>>>>> as the lookup key into a forwarding construct that may contain 1:n >>>>> number >>>>>> of next-hops (SFFs, SFs). In some cases that lookup will point to a >>>>> single >>>>>> next-hop, in others multiple next-hops. In *all* cases this has >>>>> absolutely >>>>>> nothing to do with the SFC as each representation of that SFC is >>>>> uniquely >>>>>> identified by an SFP-id. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jim >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/18/15, 10:19 AM, "sfc on behalf of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, Med, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also referred to other parts of the document, when I wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>>>>> plane² >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For example, I am not sure I understand what this means: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> " o Populate SFC forwarding policy tables of involved SFC data >>>>> plane² >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or at: >>>>>>> " o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC- >>>>> specific >>>>>>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every >>>>>>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the >>>>>>> existing >>>>>>> SFCs." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My comment is that those should be ³SFP" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Med Boucadair >>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:03 AM >>>>>>> To: Carlos Pignataro >>>>>>> Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , >>>>>>> "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" >>>>>>> , Joel Halpern >>>>>>> , sfc issue tracker , >>>>>>> "sfc@ietf.org" , Joel Halpern >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>> operates >>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is not SFC ID in the core text of the control plane draft. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The text you quoted is part of an appendix with a note that clearly >>>>>>>> states this is not discussed. A corresponding issue record has been >>>>>>>> recorded to seek for more feedback on that appendix. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 15:35 >>>>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>>>>>> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>> M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:08 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is an open issue for this draft, so it is normal to continue >>>>>>>>> discussing it. I don't know how you can conclude in advance that we >>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> circling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Discussion is great, Med. But my Œwe are circling' comment (not in >>>>>>>>> advanced, but already evident) is because I saw the same questions, >>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>> arguments, and same answers as before. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "strongly believe" is not a technical argument, btw. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well, I believe so on technical grounds! Most of which have already >>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>> said, so I do not want to contribute to the circular discussion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>>>>>> plane², >>>>>>>>> and ³SFC IDs². The architecture says that SFC are made of abstract >>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>> functions. There¹s no actual forwarding in this abstract conceptual >>>>>>>>> model. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The control-plane draft says ³Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP is >>>>>>>>> "yellow²,², and my point again is that in the data plane an SFP has >>>>> an >>>>>>>>> identifier (which identifies the SFP (SFP-ID) and is not the >>>>>> identifier >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> something else, it¹s not a Topology-ID, it¹s not a SKU, it¹s not a >>>>>> URI, >>>>>>>>> it¹s not a Family Name, and not an SFC ID), and the control (and >>>>>>>>> policy) >>>>>>>>> plane can of course work with SFCs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My $0.02. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 11:52 >>>>>>>>>>> À : Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>>>> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf- >>>>> sfc- >>>>>>>>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am a bit baffled to see this thread again ‹ it appears the >>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>> restarted to continue in circles. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no need for >>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>>> identification passed down ‹ there is no provisioning of SFCs >>>>>>>>> southbound. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (Almost) every instance of ³SFC² in the control-plane >>>>> requirements >>>>>>>>> draft >>>>>>>>>>> should really say ³SFP². There is no use of talking about SFCs >>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> data plane. The relationship between chains and paths is a policy >>>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>>>>> which belongs in the policy/control itself, but not out of there. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is no different than what I said a few months ago on the >>>>> same >>>>>>>>> topic. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control >>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>>>>>> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible >>>>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>>>>> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful >>>>> constraints, >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>> is provisioned has to be the SFP. >>>>>>>>>>>> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is >>>>>>>>> isomorphic >>>>>>>>>>> to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the >>>>>>>>> result >>>>>>>>>>> is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the >>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>> be handled. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >>>>>>>>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc >>>>> issue >>>>>>>>>>>>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more >>>>> than >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" >>>>>>>>> refers >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) >>>>> Does >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> make sense to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation >>>>>>>>> (depending >>>>>>>>>>>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a >>>>>> constrained >>>>>>>>>>>> version of the original SFC. " >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the >>>>> original >>>>>>>>> SFC. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or >>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path >>>>>>>>> computation >>>>>>>>>>> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the >>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>> SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained >>>>>>>>> version >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> the original SFC"! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >>>>>>>>>>>>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be >>>>>>>>> visited. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO >>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a >>>>>>>>> non- >>>>>>>>>>> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> RFC7665 says the following: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>>>>>>>>>>>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same SFC- >>>>>>>>> enabled >>>>>>>>>>>>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly >>>>>> which >>>>>>>>> SFF >>>>>>>>>>>>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, >>>>> while >>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions >>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>>>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision >>>>>>>>> required >>>>>>>>>>>>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>>>>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It >>>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>>>>>> that information is no more than the service chain itself >>>>>> (without >>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>> constraints). >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a >>>>>>>>> loose >>>>>>>>>>>>> path >>>>>>>>>>>>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a >>>>>>>>> domain >>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. >>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, >>>>>>>>>>>>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoyé : >>>>>>>>> vendredi >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 À : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR >>>>> Mohamed >>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC >>>>> IDs, >>>>>>>>> SFP >>>>>>>>>>> IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I concur. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even >>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely >>>>>>>>>>>>> "policy" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's >>>>> consistent >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service >>>>> Chaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs >>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements >>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by >>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>>> function path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such >>>>>> path >>>>>>>>> IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. >>>>> They >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> still path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain >>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re-, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data >>>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>>>> architecture document. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sfc mailing list >>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------------- >> Shunsuke Homma >> >> TEL: +81 422 59 3486 >> FAX: +81 422 60 7460 >> >> NTT Network Service System Labs. >> Musashino city, Tokyo, Japan >> ---------------------------------- >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> sfc mailing list >> sfc@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > > -- ---------------------------------- Shunsuke Homma TEL: +81 422 59 3486 FAX: +81 422 60 7460 NTT Network Service System Labs. Musashino city, Tokyo, Japan ---------------------------------- From nobody Sun Nov 22 22:35:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFADD1B30CB for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 22:35:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rFUTQyyyaD2h for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 22:35:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEEC41B30C9 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 22:35:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by omfedm10.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 2DA0326417E; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:35:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.18]) by omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0AD47238048; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:35:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::cba:56d0:a732:ef5a%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:35:48 +0100 From: To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Dave Dolson Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AdEluS7GlAu1oIoBRFeHYqkCdnlJ3Q== Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:35:48 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA176C@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.23.54518 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 06:35:55 -0000 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QGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4+PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Nm Yw0KPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ ID4gc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+IHNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQo+ID4NCg== From nobody Sun Nov 22 23:00:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3BB1B3141 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:00:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4goNK44sC6Py for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:00:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F6FF1B313E for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2015 23:00:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm13.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4A1313242B7; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:00:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.17]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 2061835C068; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:00:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM24.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::a1e6:3e6a:1f68:5f7e%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:00:03 +0100 From: To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TlAu1oIoBRFeHYqkCdnlJ3Z4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcIAAifwAgAWyCAA= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:00:02 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA1789@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.10.16.122716 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:00:09 -0000 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([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM31.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::2cc9:4bac:7b7d:229d%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:10:39 +0100 From: To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , Qin Wu Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5ejy7hwshPJkSenz9F/5cNK56klIsAgADIkYCAA9ZWkA== Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:10:38 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA17AE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <36EF1E54-A0D8-46CE-AF4F-EEDE873123E3@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <36EF1E54-A0D8-46CE-AF4F-EEDE873123E3@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA17AEOPEXCLILMA3corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "uri.elzur@intel.com" , "Dolganow, Andrew \(Andrew\)" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv 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23 Nov 2015 07:36:41 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (xch-aln-009.cisco.com [173.36.7.19]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAN7afQJ016217 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:36:41 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-ALN-009.cisco.com (173.36.7.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 01:36:40 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 01:36:40 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: Dave Dolson , "Elzur, Uri" , "Reinaldo Penno (repenno)" , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Thread-Index: AQHRHRVllFn7O1UA8UmUvJKuB0Kev56Y8jcAgAABkICAAOF6AIAAHe8AgACfQICAA37B8IAB8loAgAB2o2CAAJFnAIAIPRIA Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:36:40 +0000 Message-ID: <2fb0a78486134a66a0e91228612706e7@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E222B1@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2E869@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E2FFA6@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958581E3091E@ORSMSX114.amr.corp.intel.com> <839169f654bb4759969c407a2f8a1553@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <7E05C330D7FD6D4FAD0728C46B89958589139434@ORSMSX112.amr.corp.intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.23.132] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_2fb0a78486134a66a0e91228612706e7XCHRCD020ciscocom_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:36:54 -0000 --_004_2fb0a78486134a66a0e91228612706e7XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2fb0a78486134a66a0e91228612706e7XCHRCD020ciscocom_" --_000_2fb0a78486134a66a0e91228612706e7XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave, Sorry for the delayed response. Not assuming anything. Let me put together = a draft on this. Surendra. From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:46 AM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) ; Elzur, Uri ; Reinaldo Penno (repenno) ; Jim Guichard (jguich= ar) ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Surendra, In your comment, SK2> As for knowing whether SF is alive, you don't need a decrement from th= e SF, the fact that the SFF is receiving the packet from that SF is indicat= ion enough. You are making an assumption that it is easy for an SFF to determine where = a packet came from. This may be true for local direct connections, but in o= ther cases would require checking source MAC addresses or source IP address= es (if these can even be trusted). Upon receiving a packet, decide whether = it came from an SF or an SFF in order to decide whether to decrement the SI= or not. As currently defined, with the SF decrementing the index, the SFF can forwa= rd the packet purely based on lookup tables indexed by {SPI,SI}. -Dave From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar (smkuma= r) Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 1:14 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf= .org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Uri, I've tried consolidate the crux of your other comments here to do a single = response, please correct me if I misstate any of your comments/response or = if I'm taking them out of context. Uri>>SF are not making forwarding decisions, however they can influence the= m. SK2> SI dictates what the next hop is at the SFF. IOW, this index clearly i= nstructs the SFF where the packet must be sent next. An SI value of 2 may m= ean send to a FW or 1 may mean the chain is done and forward on the underla= y, etc.. So, this is not influencing, this is the actual decision - let's n= ot confuse this. Also, this is not random, this is all programmed by the co= ntrol plane. Uri>>As to the SI vs SPI: if the criteria prevent damage to thy neighboring= chain, SI decrement is not a issue. SK2> SFF is the one with the steering tables, which is programmed by the co= ntrol plane dictating how the packets should be steered. There is a well fo= rmulated structure that control plane manages. If an entity other than SFF = wants to decrement, then that should be under control planes control to ens= ure packet forwarding on the overlay network is correct. Otherwise you have= a wild west. By allowing this, you are removing the distinction between SF= and SFF - you might as well collapse them into one. The control plane now = not only needs to manage the service chains but also the SFs - becomes intr= actable. Uri>> ...And it is an indication of the SF being alve and doing some action= which may be better option that he SFF blindly decrementing SI SK2> As for knowing whether SF is alive, you don't need a decrement from th= e SF, the fact that the SFF is receiving the packet from that SF is indicat= ion enough. Anything beyond needs to well defined in the context of OAM and= not overload forwarding with OAM. Uri>> Clearly some SFs must be trusted e.g. NAT. NAT is an example of an S= F that is part of the infrastructure. SK2> This came up at the open-mic in Yokohama, I think Kent or someone had = some good comments on it. NAT brings up a lot of questions. And so does rou= ting that is part of many traditional firewalls or load balancers, which Ni= colas brought up. As an example, what happens to the overlay when the packe= t is transformed through a SF - does it terminate, or is it replaced with a= new one or continues through it ? What are the implications of each ? What= happens to the SPI+SI? It is not a question of mechanics but the underlay/= overlay semantics come into picture to keep packet forwarding correctness i= n the networks. Beyond that, what does it map to in SFC architecture, etc. SK2> While I am happy to contribute to the NAT discussion, the SI issue we = are talking does not warrant that - it is much general: SF vs. SFF. I would= prefer as WG, we address the SI even before we get to the NAT part to demo= nstrate SFC with NSH is viable in real-world. Finally, thanks for the SI snippet below. The "MUST" in that is the problem= . Until the WG resolves this, please remove this requirement. It simply doe= s not make sense to mix network forwarding with service delivery - they are= two distinct things. Let implementations make the right decision. Surendra. From: Elzur, Uri [mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com] Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:01 PM To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) >;= Reinaldo Penno (repenno) >; Ji= m Guichard (jguichar) >; sfc@= ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has [cid:image001.png@01D12117.69E206C0] Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com] Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf= .org Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating some things from previous= responses.] Keep the separation * between packet forwarding and service delivery * between application and infrastructure * between metadata and forwarding data * etc. Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables SFs to focus on service d= elivery and not service chaining and forwarding complexity, that goes into = the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery a= nd not for packet forwarding, that belongs in SFF. Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF into the service plane wi= thout having to concern themselves about how that affects packet forwarding= in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off do= ing the SFF's job. If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operators' view should be obvi= ous. NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed off the normative langu= age in this regard and is misguided in specifying, for instance, the decrem= ent of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out = the window. Surendra. From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) >;= Jim Guichard (jguichar) >; s= fc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Reinaldo It seems like we are arguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about= the security aspect, it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of = clarifying the potential role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. = no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role vs abusi= ng SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the latter= is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egress etc.= Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an "SF= can be trusted for NSH purposes" then it can lead to some simplifications= , I believe SK> I'm also ok leaving status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and= proxy roles. But I do think that making the assumption like you make, that= the issue of the SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simpli= fy our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the NSH SPECIFC securi= ty aspects and this is on-going on the ml Hope this makes my comments a bit clearer Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? "The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF." It seems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH. I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a devic= e is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. I will reiterate my point about NSH security requirements. What new specifi= c NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard against. Solving device trust = issue, IP networks layer issues, transport issues, etc seems very much out = of scope of this WG. Thanks, From: "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM To: Reinaldo Penno >, "Jim Guic= hard (jguichar)" >, "sfc@ietf= .org" > Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF? (reply #3, you may want to read the other ones first) Agree w the sentiment of further focusing the security requirements draft. = however, The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of B= YOD SF. I also think we should have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or= not say by Control Plane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordi= ngly Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Could not agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH bri= ngs to the table and not generic things that were always there. I have the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presenta= tion in Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were alw= ays possible in IP networks with NSH specific things. I think somebody wen= t to the mike (Linda?) and said something like: too many requirements detra= ct/weakens the real stuff we should be looking into. Thanks, From: sfc > on behalf of = "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? [Chair hat off ...] Honestly the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical per= spective. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements t= hen I can do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argumen= t that an SF can do bad things is a red herring given that if I can gain ac= cess to any network element I can do bad things - add routes to VRFs that s= hould not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject routes that f= orce traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and on .. What= I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I n= eed for loop prevention anyway) to make sure that packets received from an = SF comply with the SFP policy implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to = receive > on behalf of = "Elzur, Uri" > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM To: "Elzur, Uri" >, "sfc@ie= tf.org" > Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi Should I deduce from the no response on the list that the WG is in agreemen= t that the SF should be trusted ? For multiple reasons that can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsu= lations (if present) as well as NSH header itself Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM To: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF? Hi in continuation of the discussion in the meeting today, I'd like to surface= this issue and hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the dis= cussion about Map assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (= e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane intervention ma= y be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple may not be t= here) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation. This goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the = 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 t= uple, as well as for NSH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI chan= ge in case a "Classifier" is incorporated). If not, the SFF (or the Proxy) = has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the outbound... There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are fully truste= d and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the = infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft t= oo. Thx Uri ("Oo-Ree") C: 949-378-7568 --_000_2fb0a78486134a66a0e91228612706e7XCHRCD020ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dave,

 

Sorry for the delayed response. Not assuming anythi= ng. Let me put together a draft on this.

 

Surendra.

 

From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.co= m]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:46 AM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) <smkumar@cisco.com>; Elzur, Uri &= lt;uri.elzur@intel.com>; Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com&= gt;; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Surendra,

In your comment,<= /o:p>

SK2> As for knowing whether SF is alive, you don= ’t need a decrement from the SF, the fact that the SFF is receiving t= he packet from that SF is indication enough.

 

You are making an assu= mption that it is easy for an SFF to determine where a packet came from. Th= is may be true for local direct connections, but in other cases would requi= re checking source MAC addresses or source IP addresses (if these can even be trusted). Upon receiving a packe= t, decide whether it came from an SF or an SFF in order to decide whether t= o decrement the SI or not.

 

As currently defined, = with the SF decrementing the index, the SFF can forward the packet purely b= ased on lookup tables indexed by {SPI,SI}.

 

 

-Dave

 

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Surendra Kumar (smkumar)
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 1:14 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); <= a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org"> sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Hi Uri,

 

I’ve tried consolidate the crux of your other= comments here to do a single response, please correct me if I misstate any= of your comments/response or if I’m taking them out of context.

 

Uri>>SF are not making forwardi= ng decisions, however they can influence them.

SK2> SI dictates what the next hop is at the SFF.= IOW, this index clearly instructs the SFF where the packet must be sent ne= xt. An SI value of 2 may mean send to a FW or 1 may mean the chain is done = and forward on the underlay, etc.. So, this is not influencing, this is the actual decision - let’s not con= fuse this. Also, this is not random, this is all programmed by the control = plane.

 

Uri>>As to the S= I vs SPI: if the criteria prevent damage to thy neighboring chain, SI decre= ment is not a issue.

SK2> SFF is the one with the steering tables, wh= ich is programmed by the control plane dictating how the packets should be = steered. There is a well formulated structure that control plane manages. If an entity other than SFF wants to decrement, the= n that should be under control planes control to ensure packet forwarding o= n the overlay network is correct. Otherwise you have a wild west. By allowi= ng this, you are removing the distinction between SF and SFF – you might as well collapse them into one. The c= ontrol plane now not only needs to manage the service chains but also the S= Fs - becomes intractable.

 

Uri>> …And= it is an indication of the SF being alve and doing some action which may b= e better option that he SFF blindly decrementing SI

SK2> As for knowing whether SF is alive, you don= ’t need a decrement from the SF, the fact that the SFF is receiving t= he packet from that SF is indication enough. Anything beyond needs to well defined in the context of OAM and not overload forwarding wi= th OAM.

 

Uri>> Clearly some SFs must be trusted e.g. NAT. NAT  is an exam= ple of an SF that is part of the infrastructure.=

SK2> This came up at the open-mic in Yokohama, I= think Kent or someone had some good comments on it. NAT brings up a lot of= questions. And so does routing that is part of many traditional firewalls or load balancers, which Nicolas brought up. As an e= xample, what happens to the overlay when the packet is transformed through = a SF – does it terminate, or is it replaced with a new one or continu= es through it ? What are the implications of each ? What happens to the SPI+SI? It is not a question of mechanic= s but the underlay/overlay semantics come into picture to keep packet forwa= rding correctness in the networks. Beyond that, what does it map to in SFC = architecture, etc.

 

SK2> While I am happy to contribute to the NAT d= iscussion, the SI issue we are talking does not warrant that – it is = much general: SF vs. SFF. I would prefer as WG, we address the SI even before we get to the NAT part to demonstrate SFC with NSH is v= iable in real-world.

 

Finally, thanks for the SI snippet below. The ̶= 0;MUST” in that is the problem. Until the WG resolves this, please re= move this requirement. It simply does not make sense to mix network forwarding with service delivery – they are two distinct thi= ngs. Let implementations make the right decision.

 

Surendra.

 

From: Elzur, Uri [mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 2015 8:01 PM
To: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) <smkumar@cisco.com>; Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <= jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-07 form February of this year has

 

3D"cid:image001.png@01D12117.69E206C0"

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Surendra Kumar (smkumar) [mailto:smkumar@cisco.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2015 10:26 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Reinaldo Penno (repenno); Jim Guichard (jguichar); <= a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org"> sfc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

 

[Skipping to the top of this thread and repeating s= ome things from previous responses.]

 

Keep the separation

·   &nb= sp;    between packet forwarding and service delivery

·   &nb= sp;    between application and infrastructure

·   &nb= sp;    between metadata and forwarding data

·   &nb= sp;    etc.

 

Simple SFs without forwarding constraints enables S= Fs to focus on service delivery and not service chaining and forwarding com= plexity, that goes into the SFFs. Enable SFs to consume metadata for value added service delivery and not for packet forwa= rding, that belongs in SFF.

 

Operators want the flexibility to on-board any SF i= nto the service plane without having to concern themselves about how that a= ffects packet forwarding in their infrastructure. Whether SF is trusted or not, SF must stay off doing the SFF’s job.<= o:p>

 

If ETSI/NFV is any guide, this separation in operat= ors’ view should be obvious.

 

NSH draft until the last couple of revisions stayed= off the normative language in this regard and is misguided in specifying, = for instance, the decrement of SI at SF as opposed to SFF. This tosses architecture robustness out the window.

 

Surendra.

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 8:55 AM
To: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) <repenno@cisco.com>; Jim Guichard (jguichar) <jguichar@cisco.com>; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

Reinaldo

 

It seems like we are a= rguing for the same outcome. My argument is NOT about the security aspect, = it is about the SF role under SFC for the purpose of clarifying the potenti= al role SF can play and for SFF simplification (e.g. no need to keep state for checking the SF was indeed doing it role v= s abusing SI or SPI. Can share the external tunnel info with the SF [if the= latter is capable of processing when it is present] and use it on the egre= ss etc. Still need to keep state for forwarding in some cases). If we agree an “SF can be trusted for= NSH purposes”  then it can lead to some simplifications, I beli= eve

SK>

 

I’m also ok leav= ing status quo as-is with a delicate balance of SF, SFF and proxy roles. Bu= t I do think that making the assumption like you make, that the issue of th= e SF being rogue or not is beyond this WG scope, can simplify our drafts. At the same time, we need to agree to the = NSH SPECIFC security aspects and this is on-going on the ml

 

Hope this makes my com= ments a bit clearer

 

Thx<= /p>

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:25 PM
To: Elzur, Uri; Jim Guichard (jguichar); sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 

"The use model where trusting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of = BYOD SF.”

&n= bsp;

It se= ems again we are conflating generic security requirements with NSH.  I= f you trust the device then you accept it being part of a chain. If a = device is compromised changing NSH metadata is the least of the problems. 

 

I will reiterate my point about NSH security require= ments. What new specific NSH attacks (and only NSH) we should guard = against. Solving device trust issue, IP networks layer issues, transport is= sues, etc seems very much out of scope of this WG.    =

 

Thank= s,

 

&n= bsp;

From: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com&g= t;
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 9:37 PM
To: Reinaldo Penno <r= epenno@cisco.com>, "Jim Guichard (j= guichar)" <jguichar@ci= sco.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

&n= bsp;

(reply #3, you may wan= t to read the other ones first)

 

Agree w the sentiment = of further focusing the security requirements draft. however,

 

The use model where tr= usting he SF or not, becomes interesting is that of BYOD SF.

I also think we should= have clear agreement as to whether SF is trusted (or not say by Control Pl= ane signaling) and adjust the SFF enforcement accordingly

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: Reinaldo Penno (repenno) [mailto:repenno@cisco.com= ]
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 8:11 AM
To: Jim Guichard (jguichar); Elzur, Uri; sfc@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Could n= ot agree more. We need to focus on the security aspects that NSH brings to = the table and not generic things that were always there. 

 <= /span>

I have = the same concerns about the SFC security requirements draft/presentation in= Yokohama. The document mixes generic security attacks that were always pos= sible in IP networks with NSH specific things.  I think somebody went to the mike (Linda?) and said somethin= g like: too many requirements detract/weakens the real stuff we should be l= ooking into.

 <= /span>

Thanks,=

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Jim Guichard (jguichar)" <jguichar@cisco.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 8:05 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

[Chair = hat off …]

 <= /span>

Honestl= y the whole SF trust issue makes no sense to me from a practical perspectiv= e. Presumably if I have programmatic control over network elements then I c= an do whatever I want and it has nothing to do with NSH. The argument that an SF can do bad things is a red herring= given that if I can gain access to any network element I can do bad things – add routes to V= RFs that should not be there, put interfaces into the wrong VRF, inject rou= tes that force traffic in a certain direction, the list goes on and on and = on .. What I can do from an SFC perspective is verify traffic from SF->SFF (which I need for loop prevention anyway= ) to make sure that packets received from an SF comply with the SFP policy = implemented at the SFF e.g. I only expect to receive <SPI(10), index (25= 4) from SF1 etc ..

 <= /span>

Jim

 <= /span>

From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of &= quot;Elzur, Uri" <uri= .elzur@intel.com>
Date: Thursday, November 12, 2015 at 1:42 AM
To: "Elzur, Uri" <uri.elzur@intel.com>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 <= /span>

Hi

 

Should I deduce from t= he no response on the list that the WG is in agreement that the SF should b= e trusted ?

For multiple reasons t= hat can simplify handling the external tunnel encapsulations (if present) a= s well as NSH header itself

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Elzur, Uri
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 1:19 PM
To: sfc@ietf.org
Subject: [sfc] will you trust your SF?

 =

Hi

 

in continuation of the= discussion in the meeting today, I’d like to surface this issue and = hopefully it can be easily and quickly resolved. In the discussion about Ma= p assisted SFC Proxy, we discussed the potential of an SF (e.g. NAT) to legitimately change the 5 tuple. Control Plane inte= rvention may be needed in such case to update the map (as the new 5 tuple m= ay not be there) and to imply the SF is trusted for this operation.  <= /span>

 

This goes beyond the q= uestion of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the que= stion of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as for N= SH header changes (e.g. SI decrement or even SPI change in case a “Classifier” is incorporated). If= not, the SFF (or the Proxy) has to keep that state and VERIFY it on the ou= tbound…

 

There are opinions as = if we need to allow for some SF that are fully trusted and some that are no= t trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is = trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too.

 

Thx

 

Uri (“Oo-ReeR= 21;)

C: 949-378-7568=

 =

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mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MsmktKJ6kpN1 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D84941A8837 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD105259ECE; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:27:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F14B62401E2; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:27:39 -0800 (PST) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, Dave Dolson References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA176C@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Joel Halpern Direct Message-ID: <56533067.4040807@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:27:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA176C@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 15:27:45 -0000 And that case can be easily handled by carrying and SFP ID. There is no need for an SFC ID in the communication between the control plane and the data plane. Yours, Joel On 11/23/15 1:35 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Re-, > > A trivial case is when there are no constraints on the chain itself (no predetermined loose/strict path). Packets bound to a chain will fly over a (hop-by-hop computed) path that will result from the decision-making process of crossed sfc-aware elements, distributed load-balancing policies, local SF failure detect/repair, etc. > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] >> Envoyé : jeudi 19 novembre 2015 15:22 >> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Dave Dolson >> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >> >> Can you please describe some situation where there is increased value in >> having SFC information in the data plane. Having the coordination >> within the control components is understandable and usually necessary. >> But that is out of scope for this document and this working group. >> In what circumstance does the increased flexibility, which introduces >> additional complexity in the data plane, add value? >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/19/15 2:41 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>> Re-, >>> >>> Yes, but still there is a record somewhere to link the name to one or a >> list of IP addresses. That record can be maintained in a central entity or >> be local (an SFF can decide which exact SF instance it can solicited (LB >> cases, redundancy group, etc.). >>> >>> What I'm asking for is more freedom in the cp architecture to make the >> resolution when it is appropriate: either centralized, distributed, or a >> mix (hierarchical context). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>> >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com] >>>> Envoyé : jeudi 19 novembre 2015 08:32 >>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates >>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>> >>>> Med, >>>> I would say that the SFC has no representation in the data plane (like >>>> host name has no representation in IP routing.) >>>> ‎Both are abstractions. >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> Original Message >>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:12 AM >>>> To: Dave Dolson >>>> Cc: sfc@ietf.org >>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >> operates >>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Dave, >>>> >>>> I fully agree with this analogy: >>>> >>>> == >>>> SFC <--> destination host name >>>> SFP <--> destination IP address >>>> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >>>> == >>>> >>>> Hence the need for the control plane to instruct the underlying data >> plane >>>> elements with required information at each of these three levels. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Med >>>> >>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>> De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Dave Dolson >>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 20:34 >>>>> À : Jim Guichard (jguichar) >>>>> Cc : sfc@ietf.org >>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>> operates >>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>> >>>>> [reduced distribution to Jim & sfc list] >>>>> >>>>> Jim, >>>>> I think your description is helpful. Can we find a place for this in >> the >>>>> docs? >>>>> >>>>> I don't think I can understand it without referring to the concrete >> NSH, >>>>> however. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If I understand correctly, the following are true: >>>>> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are the same, they are on the same >> SFP. >>>>> - if the NSH SPI in two packets are different, they are on different >>>> SFPs. >>>>> - although two packets have the same SPI, they may traverse different >>>>> RSPs. >>>>> >>>>> - when thinking of the data-plane and south-bound interfaces C1 thru >> C4, >>>>> the SFC concept doesn't exist. >>>>> (SFC is just a north-interface concept like, "chain A provides a >>>>> firewall and a NAT") >>>>> >>>>> Have I got it right? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also think the following *analogy* with routing can be drawn: >>>>> SFC <--> destination host name >>>>> SFP <--> destination IP address >>>>> RSP <--> sequence of routers and links to deliver the IP packet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -Dave >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Guichard >>>>> (jguichar) >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 11:18 AM >>>>> To: Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf- >> sfc- >>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel Halpern; Joel M. Halpern >>>>> Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>> operates >>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>> >>>>> [Chair hat off …] >>>>> >>>>> I have to say I am struggling to see the “issue†in this thread that >>>> needs >>>>> to be addressed other than confusion over SFC vs SFP definition; from >> a >>>>> data plane perspective it is *very* clear that SFP/SI identifiers are >>>> used >>>>> as the lookup key into a forwarding construct that may contain 1:n >>>> number >>>>> of next-hops (SFFs, SFs). In some cases that lookup will point to a >>>> single >>>>> next-hop, in others multiple next-hops. In *all* cases this has >>>> absolutely >>>>> nothing to do with the SFC as each representation of that SFC is >>>> uniquely >>>>> identified by an SFP-id. >>>>> >>>>> Jim >>>>> >>>>> On 11/18/15, 10:19 AM, "sfc on behalf of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, Med, >>>>>> >>>>>> I also referred to other parts of the document, when I wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>>>> plane² >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> For example, I am not sure I understand what this means: >>>>>> >>>>>> " o Populate SFC forwarding policy tables of involved SFC data >>>> plane² >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Or at: >>>>>> " o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC- >>>> specific >>>>>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every >>>>>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the >> existing >>>>>> SFCs." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> My comment is that those should be ³SFP" >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Med Boucadair >>>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:03 AM >>>>>> To: Carlos Pignataro >>>>>> Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , >>>>>> "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" >>>>>> , Joel Halpern >>>>>> , sfc issue tracker , >>>>>> "sfc@ietf.org" , Joel Halpern >> >>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>> operates >>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> There is not SFC ID in the core text of the control plane draft. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The text you quoted is part of an appendix with a note that clearly >>>>>>> states this is not discussed. A corresponding issue record has been >>>>>>> recorded to seek for more feedback on that appendix. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Med >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 15:35 >>>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>>>>> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>> M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Joel Halpern >>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:08 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is an open issue for this draft, so it is normal to continue >>>>>>>> discussing it. I don't know how you can conclude in advance that we >>>>> are >>>>>>>> circling. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Discussion is great, Med. But my Œwe are circling' comment (not in >>>>>>>> advanced, but already evident) is because I saw the same questions, >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>> arguments, and same answers as before. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "strongly believe" is not a technical argument, btw. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well, I believe so on technical grounds! Most of which have already >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> said, so I do not want to contribute to the circular discussion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about ³SFC forwarding² and ³SFC data >>>>>>>> plane², >>>>>>>> and ³SFC IDs². The architecture says that SFC are made of abstract >>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>> functions. There¹s no actual forwarding in this abstract conceptual >>>>>>>> model. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The control-plane draft says ³Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP is >>>>>>>> "yellow²,², and my point again is that in the data plane an SFP has >>>> an >>>>>>>> identifier (which identifies the SFP (SFP-ID) and is not the >>>>> identifier >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> something else, it¹s not a Topology-ID, it¹s not a SKU, it¹s not a >>>>> URI, >>>>>>>> it¹s not a Family Name, and not an SFC ID), and the control (and >>>>>>>> policy) >>>>>>>> plane can of course work with SFCs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My $0.02. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 11:52 >>>>>>>>>> À : Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>>> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq); draft-ietf- >>>> sfc- >>>>>>>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am a bit baffled to see this thread again ‹ it appears the >>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>> restarted to continue in circles. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no need for >>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>> identification passed down ‹ there is no provisioning of SFCs >>>>>>>> southbound. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (Almost) every instance of ³SFC² in the control-plane >>>> requirements >>>>>>>> draft >>>>>>>>>> should really say ³SFP². There is no use of talking about SFCs >>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> data plane. The relationship between chains and paths is a policy >>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>>>> which belongs in the policy/control itself, but not out of there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is no different than what I said a few months ago on the >>>> same >>>>>>>> topic. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ‹ Carlos. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The control >>>>>>>> system >>>>>>>>>> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all possible >>>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>>>> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful >>>> constraints, >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>> is provisioned has to be the SFP. >>>>>>>>>>> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP is >>>>>>>> isomorphic >>>>>>>>>> to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. And the >>>>>>>> result >>>>>>>>>> is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning includes the >>>>> SFC >>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any new cases >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>> be handled. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>>> plane >>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >>>>>>>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : sfc >>>> issue >>>>>>>>>>>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no more >>>> than >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where "it" >>>>>>>> refers >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC".) >>>> Does >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>> make sense to me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or creation >>>>>>>> (depending >>>>>>>>>>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a >>>>> constrained >>>>>>>>>>> version of the original SFC. " >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the >>>> original >>>>>>>> SFC. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" SFC or >>>> to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> information that you will provision to an SFF when the path >>>>>>>> computation >>>>>>>>>> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version of the >>>>> SFC >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as "constrained >>>>>>>> version >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> the original SFC"! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The SFC is the general description of the objective. That >>>>>>>>>>>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that must be >>>>>>>> visited. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of SFC in >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position is IMHO >>>>> not >>>>>>>>>> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation from a >>>>>>>> non- >>>>>>>>>> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>>>>>>>>>>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> RFC7665 says the following: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>>>>>>>>>>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the same >> SFC- >>>>>>>> enabled >>>>>>>>>>>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting exactly >>>>> which >>>>>>>> SFF >>>>>>>>>>>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that SFP, >>>> while >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the decisions >>>>> about >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. The >>>>>>>>>>>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft is completely aligned with that approach. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The control-plane document allows in particular to provision >>>>>>>> required >>>>>>>>>>>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions about the >>>>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". It >>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>>>>> that information is no more than the service chain itself >>>>> (without >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>> constraints). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to instruct a >>>>>>>> loose >>>>>>>>>>>> path >>>>>>>>>>>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified within a >>>>>>>> domain >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. >>>>>>>> Nevertheless, >>>>>>>>>>>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoyé : >>>>>>>> vendredi >>>>>>>>>>>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 À : Joel M. Halpern Cc : BOUCADAIR >>>> Mohamed >>>>>>>>>>>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>>>>>>>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 >>>>>>>>>>>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC >>>> IDs, >>>>>>>> SFP >>>>>>>>>> IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I concur. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The relationship >>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or even >>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>> likely >>>>>>>>>>>> "policy" >>>>>>>>>>>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's >>>> consistent >>>>>>>>>>>>> with your position and provides the requisite functionality. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service >>>> Chaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work that >>>>>>>>>>>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service chain IDs >>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely within >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by requirements >>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs can be >>>>>>>>>>>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane requirements, by >>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>> function path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see such >>>>> path >>>>>>>> IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain IDs. >>>> They >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>> still path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see and work >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain >>>>>>>>>>>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re-, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the data >>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>>> architecture document. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sfc mailing list >>> sfc@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>> From nobody Mon Nov 23 07:51:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 317761A8907 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:51:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4L0dDen2CCcD for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4D7A1A8909 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by wmww144 with SMTP id w144so102116958wmw.1 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:51:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=2Mh4/ErJw8Zj8ZwCukU7dBZF//WIXLrEVjeDgYfzP0U=; b=soshlIbSEBAwK+KIoHEQMTAN2ViM+ctOjNE3g2oZnQSIbbEvXDW8+q1ofz11CtCI1d SkmiYvXPRGbxUiyMqUzwMPGE+h2J758RUoeUYTexaezRAAhYIWgnDxR3VKF9IlorvTJx Fa+XdxclHF7Db/6nv0jHCxWWwgOfTzIzNP7c84KqnCOW1vMXkM13CshwNh1JXb7iD28a wC0ZDW55P7Q4UWtTIXaXQKm1wBjEaQlWJoqwDAMDpdN900ooaIlkGht5jL1Ib0NxcIrA u/8WXQrUPYZJCIkYkOQViMVE83OWeXtndIcEhoVmE9zRc40w2X0cTEEUHL35QG3nO5ge Hlzg== X-Received: by 10.194.23.73 with SMTP id k9mr21942375wjf.3.1448293871234; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:51:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.148.208 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 07:50:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABE3A@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <36EF1E54-A0D8-46CE-AF4F-EEDE873123E3@cisco.com> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABE3A@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:50:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Bottorff, Paul" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d4396b9b6e80525373158 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Dolganow, Andrew \(Andrew\)" , Linda Dunbar , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "uri.elzur@intel.com" , Qin Wu Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 15:51:15 -0000 --047d7b5d4396b9b6e80525373158 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Paul B. that interoperability is best served by using a header that accommodates the greatest number of possible applications and use cases as the common denominator. This argues for type 2 being the MUST to implement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some particular use cases or applications that require at most a particular number context headers. In a separate email, Med asked a very reasonable question - for type 1, why are there four mandatory context headers, rather than 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? The draft contains no particular justification for this choice. It=E2=80=99s true that there are two particular use cases, draft-guichard-sfc-nsh-dc-allocation and draft-napper-sfc-nsh-mobility-allocation, that look to make good use of exactly 4 context headers. However, these are just two particular examples, and not yet accepted by the WG. Further development of these drafts, or even implementation, may show that four are insufficient. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bottorff, Paul wrote: > I think we all could agree that fixed headers are easier to implement tha= n > TLVs, however that does not rationalize mandating a fixed header > implementation. It would rationalize supporting only fixed length headers= , > however we have been unable to do this. Options always weaken standards > agreement. > > > > If the application requires TLVs, then it does not provide any standards > advantage to mandate support for fixed headers. It will not be possible f= or > an application that requires TLVs to fall back to fixed length headers. I= f > they could, then we should eliminate the TLV option from NSH. > > > > IMHO we should be looking at the abstract semantics for meta-data before > we consider how to encode it. Once we decide what needs to be encoded the= n > we can consider the best encodings and what should be mandatory or > optional. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Paul > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Paul Quinn > (paulq) > *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2015 6:27 AM > *To:* Qin Wu > *Cc:* uri.elzur@intel.com; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew); sfc@ietf.org; Linda > Dunbar > *Subject:* Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Qin Wu wrote: > > > > Hi, Andrew and Paul: > > It looks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context header in the > past, thanks Paul to point me the archive. > > Generally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and flexibility= . > > > > > > Absolutely, and that's the reason for offering the two options: balance > speed/simplicity and flexibility. > > > > The philosophy is to mandate the simplest form of metadata, enabling a > broad implementation base. If/when more flexibility is needed a more > flexible NSH type is available, along with the associated tradeoffs. > That's the balance that we decided to strike and it seems to be reasonabl= e > and well accepted. > > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > --047d7b5d4396b9b6e80525373158 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with Paul B. that interoperability is best served = by using a header that accommodates the greatest number of possible applica= tions and use cases as the common denominator. This argues for type 2 being= the MUST to implement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some= particular use cases or applications that require at most a particular num= ber context headers.

In a separate email, Med asked a ve= ry reasonable question - for type 1, why are there=C2=A0four mandatory cont= ext headers, rather than 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? The draft contains no particula= r justification for this choice.

It=E2=80=99s true= that there are two particular use cases,=C2=A0draft-guichard-sfc-nsh-dc-al= location and=C2=A0draft-napper-sfc-nsh-mobility-allocation, that look to ma= ke good use of exactly 4 context headers. However, these are just two parti= cular examples, and not yet accepted by the WG.=C2=A0 Further development o= f these drafts, or even implementation, may show that four are insufficient= .

Cheers,
Andy


On Fri, Nov 20, = 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bottorff, Paul <paul.bottorff@hpe.com>= wrote:

I think we all could a= gree that fixed headers are easier to implement than TLVs, however that doe= s not rationalize mandating a fixed header implementation. It would rationa= lize supporting only fixed length headers, however we have been unable to do this. Options always weaken standards ag= reement.

=C2=A0

If the application req= uires TLVs, then it does not provide any standards advantage to mandate sup= port for fixed headers. It will not be possible for an application that req= uires TLVs to fall back to fixed length headers. If they could, then we should eliminate the TLV option from NSH. =

=C2=A0

IMHO we should be look= ing at the abstract semantics for meta-data before we consider how to encod= e it. Once we decide what needs to be encoded then we can consider the best= encodings and what should be mandatory or optional.

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= /span>

=C2=A0

Paul

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Quinn (paulq)
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 6:27 AM
To: Qin Wu
Cc: uri.elz= ur@intel.com; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew); sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar
Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrot= e:

=C2=A0

Hi, A= ndrew and Paul:

It lo= oks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context header in the past, = thanks Paul to point me the archive.

Gener= ally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and flexibility.

=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

Absolutely, and that's the reason for offeri= ng the two options: balance speed/simplicity and flexibility.=

=C2=A0

The philosophy is to mandate the simplest form o= f metadata, enabling a broad implementation base.=C2=A0 If/when more flexib= ility is needed a more flexible NSH type is available, along with the associated tradeoffs.=C2=A0 That's the balance that we = decided to strike and it seems to be reasonable and well accepted.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Paul

=C2=A0


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--047d7b5d4396b9b6e80525373158-- From nobody Mon Nov 23 08:31:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADADF1A8A6A for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:31:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.185 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.185 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WoT_I6r8rqKI for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (Mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.134]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9271A8A62 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 08:31:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by wtl-exchp-1.sandvine.com ([fe80::ac6b:cc1e:f2ff:93aa%18]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:31:23 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: Ron Parker , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Thread-Index: AQHRJTfNwS9raGPDEUqKf86XkpwNZJ6olfGAgAE2yBA= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 16:31:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <32E21273-F3FC-4D7E-9CBB-C213E29ED0B6@cisco.com> <0E02A6BB-FC36-4B92-875F-0E2F8CA10127@affirmednetworks.com> In-Reply-To: <0E02A6BB-FC36-4B92-875F-0E2F8CA10127@affirmednetworks.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.200.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 16:31:25 -0000 I think a flow ID is useful to have around as a key to select from a choice= of next hops, but I wouldn't want to see it MUST be used. I believe there are many cases when deeper analysis of the traffic can make= a better decision, or may be stateful. A fairly obvious example is when a vendor provides a load-balancer to accom= pany their service functions, using a proprietary SF-selection. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an up-stream classifier to know th= e load-balancing requirements. -Dave -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Parker Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 11:53 AM To: Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I'm in agreement with this approach. However some of the terminology aroun= d SFPID is confusing, especially where part of the SFPID's role is to "sele= ct the next hops", as stated below. The phrase is certainly truthful, but = perhaps inadequate. When considering a loosely specified approach with al= lowed late binding, the phrase would be more evocative as "select the eligi= ble next hops (I.e., one or more service function instances for each abstra= ct service function specified in the chain)". This would allow for another= explanatory sentence that makes it explicit that in some deployments, ther= e may be exactly one eligible service function instance in each position of= the chain to satisfy the SFP (i.e. Strictly specified).=20 Ron > On Nov 22, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >=20 > SFCers, >=20 > We need resolve the concept of the RSPID that's been discussed on list, a= nd listed in the NSH draft as an "open item". Currently, NSH specifies a s= ervice path ID which is used to i) identify the service path, ii) select th= e required overlay encap + next hops. The arch and the NSH drafts do not s= pecify the granularity of the path ID: it can represent as specific a path = as the control plane wants to assign. In the current open source implement= ation, we've been using it as an explicit indication of which SFF and SFs a= re composed to create a path. >=20 > Having said that, I know some folks have presented a case where further g= ranularity might be required: an explicit indication of specific instances = within the scope of a SFP. I think we have a solution for each NSH MD Typ= e, although we might have slightly different terminology, the desired funct= ionality will be equivalent: >=20 > MD-type 1: As you know the metadata in type 1 is opaque, so in theory an = implementation could assign any additional identifiers to the metadata. Th= ere are also a couple of drafts that provide allocation guidelines, the dat= a center one specifically allows for an additional identifier -- a flow ID = of sorts -- that can be used for dataplane granularity. >=20 > MD-type 2: As per the recently submitted draft (http://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv/), a flow id specific TLV has been defined.= This can be used, as needed, within the dataplane to further identify a f= low, and therefore be used for specific instance selection, load balancing = and such. >=20 > So, given these two options, I think we can, with the existing drafts, pr= ovide the needed functionality for the RSPID use cases. If we get consensu= s, we can update NSH accordingly so please weigh in, on list, as needed. >=20 > Thanks > Paul > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Mon Nov 23 09:20:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F6F1A916F for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:20:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ToFisJyCGy5Y for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-3.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-3.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.22.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 974AC1A916D for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-3.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:20:06 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: Dave Dolson , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Thread-Index: AQHRJUZHJepkeKscxU+YywTFucRfPZ6qVFgA//+GrTA= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:20:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: <32E21273-F3FC-4D7E-9CBB-C213E29ED0B6@cisco.com> <0E02A6BB-FC36-4B92-875F-0E2F8CA10127@affirmednetworks.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:20:08 -0000 Agree that this is an optional attribute, but also that it could be very us= eful. =20 For example, the classifier can determine on what granularity a "macro-flow= " is identified and consequently stamped with a unique "flow ID". This is= extremely useful if the classifier understands "subscribers" and can facil= itate the late-binding style of load balancing such that all flows from a p= articular subscriber are processed by the exact same set of service functio= n instances (barring failures, of course). Ron -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com]=20 Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:31 AM To: Ron Parker ; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I think a flow ID is useful to have around as a key to select from a choice= of next hops, but I wouldn't want to see it MUST be used. I believe there are many cases when deeper analysis of the traffic can make= a better decision, or may be stateful. A fairly obvious example is when a vendor provides a load-balancer to accom= pany their service functions, using a proprietary SF-selection. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an up-stream classifier to know th= e load-balancing requirements. -Dave -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Parker Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 11:53 AM To: Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I'm in agreement with this approach. However some of the terminology aroun= d SFPID is confusing, especially where part of the SFPID's role is to "sele= ct the next hops", as stated below. The phrase is certainly truthful, but = perhaps inadequate. When considering a loosely specified approach with al= lowed late binding, the phrase would be more evocative as "select the eligi= ble next hops (I.e., one or more service function instances for each abstra= ct service function specified in the chain)". This would allow for another= explanatory sentence that makes it explicit that in some deployments, ther= e may be exactly one eligible service function instance in each position of= the chain to satisfy the SFP (i.e. Strictly specified).=20 Ron > On Nov 22, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >=20 > SFCers, >=20 > We need resolve the concept of the RSPID that's been discussed on list, a= nd listed in the NSH draft as an "open item". Currently, NSH specifies a s= ervice path ID which is used to i) identify the service path, ii) select th= e required overlay encap + next hops. The arch and the NSH drafts do not s= pecify the granularity of the path ID: it can represent as specific a path = as the control plane wants to assign. In the current open source implement= ation, we've been using it as an explicit indication of which SFF and SFs a= re composed to create a path. >=20 > Having said that, I know some folks have presented a case where further g= ranularity might be required: an explicit indication of specific instances = within the scope of a SFP. I think we have a solution for each NSH MD Typ= e, although we might have slightly different terminology, the desired funct= ionality will be equivalent: >=20 > MD-type 1: As you know the metadata in type 1 is opaque, so in theory an = implementation could assign any additional identifiers to the metadata. Th= ere are also a couple of drafts that provide allocation guidelines, the dat= a center one specifically allows for an additional identifier -- a flow ID = of sorts -- that can be used for dataplane granularity. >=20 > MD-type 2: As per the recently submitted draft (http://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv/), a flow id specific TLV has been defined.= This can be used, as needed, within the dataplane to further identify a f= low, and therefore be used for specific instance selection, load balancing = and such. >=20 > So, given these two options, I think we can, with the existing drafts, pr= ovide the needed functionality for the RSPID use cases. If we get consensu= s, we can update NSH accordingly so please weigh in, on list, as needed. >=20 > Thanks > Paul > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Mon Nov 23 09:23:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A391A9245 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:23:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zBw1OAUknuK8 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.sandvine.com (mail1.sandvine.com [64.7.137.165]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292F31A9244 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:22:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLR-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com (192.168.196.172) by WTL-EXCHP-3.sandvine.com (192.168.196.177) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.195.1; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:23:00 -0500 Received: from WTL-EXCHP-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::68ac:f071:19ff:3455]) by blr-exchp-2.sandvine.com ([fe80::6c6d:7108:c63c:9055%14]) with mapi id 14.03.0181.006; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:22:57 -0500 From: Dave Dolson To: Ron Parker , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Thread-Index: AQHRJTfNwS9raGPDEUqKf86XkpwNZJ6olfGAgAE2yBCAAGMMgP//rHNQ Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:22:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <32E21273-F3FC-4D7E-9CBB-C213E29ED0B6@cisco.com> <0E02A6BB-FC36-4B92-875F-0E2F8CA10127@affirmednetworks.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.200.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:23:08 -0000 Yes, I think it has a lot of value. Even when (optionally) present, however, I don't think it must be obeyed. -----Original Message----- From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com]=20 Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 12:20 PM To: Dave Dolson; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Agree that this is an optional attribute, but also that it could be very us= eful. =20 For example, the classifier can determine on what granularity a "macro-flow= " is identified and consequently stamped with a unique "flow ID". This is= extremely useful if the classifier understands "subscribers" and can facil= itate the late-binding style of load balancing such that all flows from a p= articular subscriber are processed by the exact same set of service functio= n instances (barring failures, of course). Ron -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com]=20 Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:31 AM To: Ron Parker ; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I think a flow ID is useful to have around as a key to select from a choice= of next hops, but I wouldn't want to see it MUST be used. I believe there are many cases when deeper analysis of the traffic can make= a better decision, or may be stateful. A fairly obvious example is when a vendor provides a load-balancer to accom= pany their service functions, using a proprietary SF-selection. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an up-stream classifier to know th= e load-balancing requirements. -Dave -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Parker Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 11:53 AM To: Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I'm in agreement with this approach. However some of the terminology aroun= d SFPID is confusing, especially where part of the SFPID's role is to "sele= ct the next hops", as stated below. The phrase is certainly truthful, but = perhaps inadequate. When considering a loosely specified approach with al= lowed late binding, the phrase would be more evocative as "select the eligi= ble next hops (I.e., one or more service function instances for each abstra= ct service function specified in the chain)". This would allow for another= explanatory sentence that makes it explicit that in some deployments, ther= e may be exactly one eligible service function instance in each position of= the chain to satisfy the SFP (i.e. Strictly specified).=20 Ron > On Nov 22, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >=20 > SFCers, >=20 > We need resolve the concept of the RSPID that's been discussed on list, a= nd listed in the NSH draft as an "open item". Currently, NSH specifies a s= ervice path ID which is used to i) identify the service path, ii) select th= e required overlay encap + next hops. The arch and the NSH drafts do not s= pecify the granularity of the path ID: it can represent as specific a path = as the control plane wants to assign. In the current open source implement= ation, we've been using it as an explicit indication of which SFF and SFs a= re composed to create a path. >=20 > Having said that, I know some folks have presented a case where further g= ranularity might be required: an explicit indication of specific instances = within the scope of a SFP. I think we have a solution for each NSH MD Typ= e, although we might have slightly different terminology, the desired funct= ionality will be equivalent: >=20 > MD-type 1: As you know the metadata in type 1 is opaque, so in theory an = implementation could assign any additional identifiers to the metadata. Th= ere are also a couple of drafts that provide allocation guidelines, the dat= a center one specifically allows for an additional identifier -- a flow ID = of sorts -- that can be used for dataplane granularity. >=20 > MD-type 2: As per the recently submitted draft (http://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv/), a flow id specific TLV has been defined.= This can be used, as needed, within the dataplane to further identify a f= low, and therefore be used for specific instance selection, load balancing = and such. >=20 > So, given these two options, I think we can, with the existing drafts, pr= ovide the needed functionality for the RSPID use cases. If we get consensu= s, we can update NSH accordingly so please weigh in, on list, as needed. >=20 > Thanks > Paul > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Mon Nov 23 09:25:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA511A92B3 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:25:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ptvd33viORzH for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-6.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-6.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.56.71]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 144E21A92B1 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-6.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.92]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 09:25:28 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: Dave Dolson , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Thread-Index: AQHRJUZHJepkeKscxU+YywTFucRfPZ6qVFgA//+GrTCAAIe9gP//emug Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:25:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <32E21273-F3FC-4D7E-9CBB-C213E29ED0B6@cisco.com> <0E02A6BB-FC36-4B92-875F-0E2F8CA10127@affirmednetworks.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 17:25:31 -0000 Agree. It is optional whether SFF consumes this value when present. Ron -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com]=20 Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 12:23 PM To: Ron Parker ; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Yes, I think it has a lot of value. Even when (optionally) present, however, I don't think it must be obeyed. -----Original Message----- From: Ron Parker [mailto:Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com]=20 Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 12:20 PM To: Dave Dolson; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Agree that this is an optional attribute, but also that it could be very us= eful. =20 For example, the classifier can determine on what granularity a "macro-flow= " is identified and consequently stamped with a unique "flow ID". This is= extremely useful if the classifier understands "subscribers" and can facil= itate the late-binding style of load balancing such that all flows from a p= articular subscriber are processed by the exact same set of service functio= n instances (barring failures, of course). Ron -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dolson [mailto:ddolson@sandvine.com]=20 Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:31 AM To: Ron Parker ; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I think a flow ID is useful to have around as a key to select from a choice= of next hops, but I wouldn't want to see it MUST be used. I believe there are many cases when deeper analysis of the traffic can make= a better decision, or may be stateful. A fairly obvious example is when a vendor provides a load-balancer to accom= pany their service functions, using a proprietary SF-selection. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an up-stream classifier to know th= e load-balancing requirements. -Dave -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Parker Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 11:53 AM To: Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I'm in agreement with this approach. However some of the terminology aroun= d SFPID is confusing, especially where part of the SFPID's role is to "sele= ct the next hops", as stated below. The phrase is certainly truthful, but = perhaps inadequate. When considering a loosely specified approach with al= lowed late binding, the phrase would be more evocative as "select the eligi= ble next hops (I.e., one or more service function instances for each abstra= ct service function specified in the chain)". This would allow for another= explanatory sentence that makes it explicit that in some deployments, ther= e may be exactly one eligible service function instance in each position of= the chain to satisfy the SFP (i.e. Strictly specified).=20 Ron > On Nov 22, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >=20 > SFCers, >=20 > We need resolve the concept of the RSPID that's been discussed on list, a= nd listed in the NSH draft as an "open item". Currently, NSH specifies a s= ervice path ID which is used to i) identify the service path, ii) select th= e required overlay encap + next hops. The arch and the NSH drafts do not s= pecify the granularity of the path ID: it can represent as specific a path = as the control plane wants to assign. In the current open source implement= ation, we've been using it as an explicit indication of which SFF and SFs a= re composed to create a path. >=20 > Having said that, I know some folks have presented a case where further g= ranularity might be required: an explicit indication of specific instances = within the scope of a SFP. I think we have a solution for each NSH MD Typ= e, although we might have slightly different terminology, the desired funct= ionality will be equivalent: >=20 > MD-type 1: As you know the metadata in type 1 is opaque, so in theory an = implementation could assign any additional identifiers to the metadata. Th= ere are also a couple of drafts that provide allocation guidelines, the dat= a center one specifically allows for an additional identifier -- a flow ID = of sorts -- that can be used for dataplane granularity. >=20 > MD-type 2: As per the recently submitted draft (http://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv/), a flow id specific TLV has been defined.= This can be used, as needed, within the dataplane to further identify a f= low, and therefore be used for specific instance selection, load balancing = and such. >=20 > So, given these two options, I think we can, with the existing drafts, pr= ovide the needed functionality for the RSPID use cases. If we get consensu= s, we can update NSH accordingly so please weigh in, on list, as needed. >=20 > Thanks > Paul > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Mon Nov 23 10:57:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF491ACDE5 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:57:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juwc-Ao2MYN2 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from g2t2353.austin.hp.com (g2t2353.austin.hp.com [15.217.128.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2048E1ACDD5 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 10:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (g2w4316.austin.hp.com [16.197.9.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by g2t2353.austin.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C9CD5F; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:57:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from G2W4313.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.197.24.255) by G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.197.9.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.169.1; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:57:06 +0000 Received: from G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net ([169.254.3.159]) by G2W4313.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.197.24.255]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:57:06 +0000 From: "Bottorff, Paul" To: Dave Dolson , Ron Parker , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item Thread-Index: AQHRJTfNwS9raGPDEUqKf86XkpwNZJ6oQh+AgAGMOgCAACGlwA== Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:57:05 +0000 Message-ID: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254AC0A8@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <32E21273-F3FC-4D7E-9CBB-C213E29ED0B6@cisco.com> <0E02A6BB-FC36-4B92-875F-0E2F8CA10127@affirmednetworks.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [16.192.129.45] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 18:57:43 -0000 Hi Dave: I believe a flow ID is desirable. I also agree that the classifier may not = always provide sufficient flow analysis for LB operations. Your example of = a SF specific LB is well taken. I don't see how the existence of a flow ID in the meta-data mandates that i= t is always used for directing packets to specific SF instances along the p= ath. If the NSH MUST have a flow ID it doesn't limit a SF specific LB from = using other information for the LB decision. What a MUST have a flow ID doe= s is assure that simple LBs can rely on having a flow ID. We should consider that other transport fields may also carry a flow ID. It= seems to me we have been mixing both transport and meta-data in the NSH he= ader. Particularly the SPI, SI and RSP together form a transport address. Cheers, Paul -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dolson Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 8:31 AM To: Ron Parker; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I think a flow ID is useful to have around as a key to select from a choice= of next hops, but I wouldn't want to see it MUST be used. I believe there are many cases when deeper analysis of the traffic can make= a better decision, or may be stateful. A fairly obvious example is when a vendor provides a load-balancer to accom= pany their service functions, using a proprietary SF-selection. I don't think it is reasonable to expect an up-stream classifier to know th= e load-balancing requirements. -Dave -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Parker Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2015 11:53 AM To: Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH: RSP open item I'm in agreement with this approach. However some of the terminology aroun= d SFPID is confusing, especially where part of the SFPID's role is to "sele= ct the next hops", as stated below. The phrase is certainly truthful, but = perhaps inadequate. When considering a loosely specified approach with al= lowed late binding, the phrase would be more evocative as "select the eligi= ble next hops (I.e., one or more service function instances for each abstra= ct service function specified in the chain)". This would allow for another= explanatory sentence that makes it explicit that in some deployments, ther= e may be exactly one eligible service function instance in each position of= the chain to satisfy the SFP (i.e. Strictly specified).=20 Ron > On Nov 22, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Paul Quinn (paulq) wrote: >=20 > SFCers, >=20 > We need resolve the concept of the RSPID that's been discussed on list, a= nd listed in the NSH draft as an "open item". Currently, NSH specifies a s= ervice path ID which is used to i) identify the service path, ii) select th= e required overlay encap + next hops. The arch and the NSH drafts do not s= pecify the granularity of the path ID: it can represent as specific a path = as the control plane wants to assign. In the current open source implement= ation, we've been using it as an explicit indication of which SFF and SFs a= re composed to create a path. >=20 > Having said that, I know some folks have presented a case where further g= ranularity might be required: an explicit indication of specific instances = within the scope of a SFP. I think we have a solution for each NSH MD Typ= e, although we might have slightly different terminology, the desired funct= ionality will be equivalent: >=20 > MD-type 1: As you know the metadata in type 1 is opaque, so in theory an = implementation could assign any additional identifiers to the metadata. Th= ere are also a couple of drafts that provide allocation guidelines, the dat= a center one specifically allows for an additional identifier -- a flow ID = of sorts -- that can be used for dataplane granularity. >=20 > MD-type 2: As per the recently submitted draft (http://datatracker.ietf.= org/doc/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv/), a flow id specific TLV has been defined.= This can be used, as needed, within the dataplane to further identify a f= low, and therefore be used for specific instance selection, load balancing = and such. >=20 > So, given these two options, I think we can, with the existing drafts, pr= ovide the needed functionality for the RSPID use cases. If we get consensu= s, we can update NSH accordingly so please weigh in, on list, as needed. >=20 > Thanks > Paul > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Mon Nov 23 13:40:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D00A1B34C7 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:40:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, 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with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 15:40:03 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 15:40:03 -0600 From: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcIAAifwAgAYb6gCAAKICgA== Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:40:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> 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Content-ID: <77B4C4FC3274F14CAD63B108F64660B4@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:40:10 -0000 SGkgTWVkLA0KDQpJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBwb2ludCBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBTRlAtaWQgKG5vdCBTRkMt aWQgb3IgYW55IG90aGVyIGlkKSBpcyB1c2VkDQphcyB0aGUgbG9va3VwIGtleSB0byBkZXRlcm1p bmUgZm9yd2FyZGluZyBhY3Rpb24gcmVnYXJkbGVzcyBvZiB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZQ0KU0ZDIGlzIGZ1 bGx5IGNvbnN0cmFpbmVkLCBwYXJ0aWFsbHkgY29uc3RyYWluZWQsIG9yIG5vdCBjb25zdHJhaW5l ZCBhdA0KYWxsLiBGb3J3YXJkaW5nIGlzIHNpbXBseSByZWFsaXplZCBieSB0aGUgcmVzdWx0IG9m IHRoZSBsb29rdXAgb24gdGhlDQpTRlAtaWQuIA0KDQpKaW0NCg0KT24gMTEvMjMvMTUsIDI6MDAg 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Pj4+IGFic3RyYWN0DQo+PiA+PiA+Pj4gPj4+PiBTRkMNCj4+ID4+ID4+PiA+Pj4NCj4+ID4+ID4+ PiA+Pj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+ ID4+ID4+PiA+Pj4gc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gPj4gPj4+ID4+PiBzZmNAaWV0Zi5vcmcN Cj4+ID4+ID4+PiA+Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zZmMN Cj4+ID4+ID4+PiA+DQo+PiA+PiA+Pg0KPj4gPj4gPg0KPj4gPj4gPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+PiA+PiA+c2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K Pj4gPj4gPnNmY0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4gPj4gPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQo+PiA+DQo+DQoNCg== From nobody Mon Nov 23 13:59:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087E21B3AB3 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:59:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PujspjruxwlW for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-2.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-2.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.22.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A7711B3515 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:59:24 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+CAAI54gIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwAgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgQAIAABEEAgAAQWwCAAQMyAIAAdI2AgAXIFwCAAPXggP//fp+A Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:59:23 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA1789@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 21:59:29 -0000 SGksIEppbS4NCg0KSW4gdGhlIGNhc2Ugb2YgbGF0ZS1iaW5kaW5nIG9mIGxvYWQgYmFsYW5jaW5n 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by G2W4316.americas.hpqcorp.net (16.197.9.73) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.169.1; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:34:22 +0000 Received: from G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net ([169.254.3.159]) by G2W4311.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.197.24.199]) with mapi id 14.03.0169.001; Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:34:22 +0000 From: "Bottorff, Paul" To: Ron Parker , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9T1lmHHc0DUEGZ5S7afLAxI54/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcIAAifwAgAYb6gCAAKICgP//9K+AgAAYnJA= Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:34:21 +0000 Message-ID: <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254AC16C@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> 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MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 23:34:50 -0000 SGkgUm9uOg0KDQpJdCBzZWVtcyBTSSBtYXkgYWxzbyBiZSBuZWVkZWQgaW4gYSBmb3J3YXJkaW5n IGRlY2lzaW9uIHNpbmNlIHRoZSBTRlAtaWQgYW5kIGZsb3ctaWQgYXJlIHRoZSBzYW1lIGZvciBl dmVyeSBTRiBpbiB0aGUgY2hhaW4uIA0KDQpJdCBpcyBhbHNvIHBvc3NpYmxlIHdlIGFyZSB1c2lu ZyBhbiBNUExTIGNoYWluLCBNUExTIFNlZ21lbnQgUm91dGUgY2hhaW4sIG9yIE1BQyBjaGFpbiB0 byBmb3J3YXJkIGF0IHRoZSBTRkYuIEluIHRoZXNlIGNhc2VzIHRoZSBTRkYgZG9lcyByZWx5IG9u IHRoZSBTRlAtaWQgb3IgU0kuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCg0KUGF1bA0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1l c3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogc2ZjIFttYWlsdG86c2ZjLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJl 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpzZmMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpzZmNAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjDQpfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0Kc2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K c2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0K From nobody Tue Nov 24 04:57:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2A01A21C7 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9LQeovc6pdUj for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:57:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 345601A21C2 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:57:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.2]) by omfedm09.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id C1CB52DC0DA; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:57:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.60]) by omfedm06.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id A65BA27C059; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:57:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM7F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::c1d7:e278:e357:11ad%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:57:36 +0100 From: To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TlAu1oIoBRFeHYqkCdnlJ3Z4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcIAAifwAgAYb6gCAAKICgIAA5pRw Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:57:35 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA23B2@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA1789@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.24.122717 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: 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bmZvL3NmYw0KPiA+PiA+PiA+Pj4gPg0KPiA+PiA+PiA+Pg0KPiA+PiA+PiA+DQo+ID4+ID4+ID5f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+PiA+PiA+ c2ZjIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+PiA+PiA+c2ZjQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4+ID4+ID5odHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYw0KPiA+PiA+DQo+ID4NCg0K From nobody Tue Nov 24 04:59:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02E0F1A6EDA for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:59:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rK2Cx4JugBtP for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:59:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF1681A3BA6 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:59:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id EEA9C402C3; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:59:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.75]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id BC5001A0056; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:59:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::65de:2f08:41e6:ebbe%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:59:39 +0100 From: To: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN , "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWGyAgDILZ+D///eYgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwAgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgQAIAABEEAgAAQWwCAAQMyAIAAdI2AgAXIFwCAAPXggIABAFuAgAARMPA= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:59:38 +0000 Message-ID: <1977_1448369982_56545F3E_1977_70_5_f05052b5-6974-4bba-9bf1-f3fcafdc47fa@OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA1789@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA23B2@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA23B2@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n4BPwYz9wjXB for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 07:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 154BC1A8711 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 07:01:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=35340; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448377310; x=1449586910; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=Pyp+Gt5k+PDrkpxjqTISUBYxXIWrK1sntK44RelOHu0=; 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2015 15:01:48 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:01:47 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 09:01:47 -0600 From: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TSmXd8s/yhEWwIxa2o1DCmZ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcIAAifwAgAYb6gCAAKICgIABVDmA///O6AA= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:01:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA1789@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA23B2@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA23B2@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.5.7.151005 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.131.77.10] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:01:54 -0000 SGkgTWVkLA0KDQpJIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gc2VlIOKAnFNGQyBGb3J3YXJkaW5nIFBvbGljeSBU YWJsZeKAnSByZXBsYWNlZCB3aXRoIOKAnFNGUA0KRm9yd2FyZGluZyBQb2xpY3kgVGFibGXigJ0g YW5kIOKAnFNGQy1zcGVjaWZpYyB0cmFmZmljIGZvcndhcmRpbmfigJ0gcmVwbGFjZWQNCndpdGgg 4oCcU0ZQLXNwZWNpZmljIHRyYWZmaWMgZm9yd2FyZGluZ+KAnTsgZm9yd2FyZGluZyBpcyBkZXRl 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FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YS7Kck4YuaOr for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 07:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 500311A88A3 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 07:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm14.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id A136722C4E5; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:37:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.31]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 80FEF35C072; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:37:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM22.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::8c90:f4e9:be28:2a1%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:37:56 +0100 From: To: "Jim Guichard (jguichar)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TlAu1oIoBRFeHYqkCdnlJ3Z4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcIAAifwAgAYb6gCAAKICgIABVDmA///O6AD///kCcA== Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:37:56 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA254A@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA1789@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA23B2@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.24.144516 Archived-At: Cc: sfc issue tracker Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:38:04 -0000 UmUtLA0KDQpJIGNhbiBtYWtlIHRob3NlIGNoYW5nZXMuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQo+IC0t LS0tTWVzc2FnZSBkJ29yaWdpbmUtLS0tLQ0KPiBEZcKgOiBKaW0gR3VpY2hhcmQgKGpndWljaGFy KSBbbWFpbHRvOmpndWljaGFyQGNpc2NvLmNvbV0NCj4gRW52b3nDqcKgOiBtYXJkaSAyNCBub3Zl bWJyZSAyMDE1IDE2OjAyDQo+IMOAwqA6IEJPVUNBREFJUiBNb2hhbWVkIElNVC9PTE47IHNmY0Bp ZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBDY8KgOiBzZmMgaXNzdWUgdHJhY2tlcg0KPiBPYmpldMKgOiBSZTogW3NmY10g IzE1IChjb250cm9sLXBsYW5lKTogV2hldGhlciB0aGUgY29udHJvbCBwbGFuZSBvcGVyYXRlcw0K PiBvbiBTRkMgSURzLCBTRlAgSURzLCBldGMuDQo+IA0KPiBIaSBNZWQsDQo+IA0KPiBJIHdvdWxk 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Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEAA1A1A6A for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:25:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3oGEgIVINBZj for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6FBA1A1A51 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59703 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1a1XG4-0007bW-Mt; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:25:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "sfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.5 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.5, by Edgewall Software To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Trac-Project: sfc Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:25:04 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/sfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/14#comment:1 Message-ID: <081.ca85065e01142b2bcd09f45e1b25e336@tools.ietf.org> References: <066.30544c61f7d483f2c92b00ddfacd598d@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 14 In-Reply-To: <066.30544c61f7d483f2c92b00ddfacd598d@tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, sfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Resent-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151125102505.E6FBA1A1A51@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:25:05 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] #14 (control-plane): Taeho's Comments X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:25:07 -0000 #14: Taeho's Comments Comment (by mohamed.boucadair@orange.com): The following changes are made in -01: OLD: SFP fail-over: re-construct a SFP with replacing the failed SF instance with another instance of the same SF. SFP fail-over: re-construct a SFP with replacing the failed SF instance with another instance of the same SF or withdraw the failed SF from being invoked. Note that withdrawing an SF may be envisaged if the resulting connectivity service is not broken (that is, packets bound to the updated SFP can be successfully delivered to their ultimate destinations). Rerouting the traffic to another SF instance or withdrawing the failed SF is deployment- specific. OLD: SF/SFC Load balancing: re-construct SFPs to distribute the workload among various SF instances. NEW: SF/SFP Load balancing: re-construct SFPs to distribute the workload among various SF instances. Particularly, load distribution policies can be taken into account by the Control Element to re- compute an SFP or be provisioned as attributes to SFPs that will be installed using the control interfaces. -- -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc- mohamed.boucadair@orange.com | control-plane@tools.ietf.org Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: minor | Milestone: Component: control-plane | Version: Severity: - | Resolution: Keywords: | -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Ticket URL: sfc From nobody Wed Nov 25 02:26:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677C91A1A7B for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:26:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YUkVFlYDXSbe for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 654DC1A1A78 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:26:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59776 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1a1XHc-0006a3-4w; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:26:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "sfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.5 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.5, by Edgewall Software To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Trac-Project: sfc Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:26:40 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/sfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/16#comment:1 Message-ID: <081.30630e920d476a82a03eac1264b51fcf@tools.ietf.org> References: <066.4de1a1b2496e7fbeb2cea22aa41193b6@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 16 In-Reply-To: <066.4de1a1b2496e7fbeb2cea22aa41193b6@tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, sfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Resent-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151125102640.654DC1A1A78@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:26:40 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] #16 (control-plane): RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:26:41 -0000 #16: RSP-related Considerations (L. Dunbar/A. Malis) Comment (by mohamed.boucadair@orange.com): These two sections are moved to the core text in -01. These two sections appear in -01 as: 4.10.4 and 4.10.5. -- -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc- mohamed.boucadair@orange.com | control-plane@tools.ietf.org Type: defect | Status: new Priority: major | Milestone: Component: control-plane | Version: Severity: - | Resolution: Keywords: | -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Ticket URL: sfc From nobody Wed Nov 25 02:29:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBD71A1A7E for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:29:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eT3tb89I6efJ for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 084EC1A1A68 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59825 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1a1XJv-0007Vc-PE; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:29:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "sfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.5 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.5, by Edgewall Software To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Trac-Project: sfc Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:29:03 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/sfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/15#comment:1 Message-ID: <081.a981c8dad8895a73800708bc0d7e735d@tools.ietf.org> References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 15 In-Reply-To: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, sfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Resent-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151125102904.084EC1A1A68@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:29:04 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:29:05 -0000 #15: Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Comment (by mohamed.boucadair@orange.com): The following changes are made in -01: OLD: o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC-specific traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the existing SFCs. [[Note: The question of whether the data plane operates just in terms of SFP IDs or needs SFC IDs, as described in this version of the draft, is still under discussion among the authors.]] NEW: o SFP Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFP-specific traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the existing SFCs. The SFP Identifier (SFP-id) is used as a lookup key to determine forwarding action regardless of whether the SFC is fully constrained, partially constrained, or not constrained at all. Additional information such as a flow identifier and/or other characteristics (e.g., the 5-tuple transport coordinates of the original packet) may be used for lookup purposes. The set of information to use for lookup purposes may be instructed by the control plane. * Add this NEW text to Section 1.3: NEW: As a reminder, a Service Function Path (SFP) designates a subset of the collection designated by the SFC. For some SFPs, in some deployments, that will be a set of 1. For other SFPs (in the same or other deployments) it may be a larger set. For some SFPs in some deployments the SFP may designate the same set of choices as the SFC. This document accommodates all those deployments. * Others minor edits. -- -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc- mohamed.boucadair@orange.com | control-plane@tools.ietf.org Type: defect | Status: new Priority: major | Milestone: Component: control-plane | Version: Severity: - | Resolution: Keywords: | -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Ticket URL: sfc From nobody Wed Nov 25 02:34:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C45E1A1A82 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:34:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oOhaBJWs0uPN for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AD321A1A7D for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59970 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1a1XP1-00041x-5G; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:34:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "sfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.5 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.5, by Edgewall Software To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Trac-Project: sfc Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:34:19 -0000 X-URL: http://tools.ietf.org/sfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/13#comment:3 Message-ID: <081.54c5a761f7ec2d00c9384cb3d98d6a1c@tools.ietf.org> References: <066.e47bcbfaf64ea83e17548ea0b67b4a27@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 13 In-Reply-To: <066.e47bcbfaf64ea83e17548ea0b67b4a27@tools.ietf.org> X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, sfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Resent-To: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151125103419.9AD321A1A7D@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:34:19 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] #13 (control-plane): Sumandra Majee's comments X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:34:20 -0000 #13: Sumandra Majee's comments Comment (by mohamed.boucadair@orange.com): The following changes are made in -01: * Add this text in Section 4.7: NEW: Local failure detect and repair mechanisms may be enabled by SFC- aware nodes. Control Elements may be fed directly or indirectly with inputs from these mechanisms. * In section 3.3.1: OLD: SFC Classification policy entry should be bound to one single service function chain (or one single SFP); when an incoming packet matches more than one classification entry, tie-breaking criteria should be specified (e.g., priority). Such tie-breaking criteria should be instructed by the control plane. NEW: When an incoming packet matches more than one classification entry, tie-breaking criteria should be followed (e.g., priority). Such tie- breaking criteria should be instructed by the control plane. -- -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc- mohamed.boucadair@orange.com | control-plane@tools.ietf.org Type: enhancement | Status: new Priority: minor | Milestone: Component: control-plane | Version: Severity: - | Resolution: Keywords: | -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Ticket URL: sfc From nobody Wed Nov 25 02:36:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072721A19EC; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:36:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.11.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151125103624.6238.76237.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:36:24 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:36:24 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining Working Group of the IETF. Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Control Plane Components & Requirements Authors : Hongyu Li Qin Wu Yong(Oliver) Huang Mohamed Boucadair Christian Jacquenet Walter Haeffner Seungik Lee Ron Parker Linda Dunbar Andrew Malis Joel M. Halpern Tirumaleswar Reddy Prashanth Patil Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01.txt Pages : 27 Date : 2015-11-25 Abstract: This document describes requirements for conveying information between Service Function Chaining (SFC) control elements and SFC functional elements. Also, this document identifies a set of control interfaces to interact with SFC-aware elements to establish, maintain or recover service function chains. This document does not specify protocols nor extensions to existing protocols. This document exclusively focuses on SFC deployments that are under the responsibility of a single administrative entity. Inter-domain considerations are out of scope. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Nov 25 02:43:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D070E1A1A8C for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:43:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TCZW3xJ2SiBO for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor36.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC6341A1A97 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 02:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 6603A40125 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:43:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.75]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 450C11A005D for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:43:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILMA4.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::65de:2f08:41e6:ebbe%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:43:28 +0100 From: To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHRJ20luM0T8A44FU+U1CMd6WRfbp6si7IA Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:43:27 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA2B55@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20151125103624.6238.76237.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20151125103624.6238.76237.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:43:39 -0000 Hi all, This new version takes into account the feedback received to address the is= sues available at:=20 https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/query?component=3Dcontrol-plane&ord= er=3Dpriority=20 For your convenience, you may check the diff to track the changes: https://= www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01=20 FWIW, I requested an early review from the security directorate (many thank= s to S. Farrel and T. Kivinen for scheduling it). The review will be shared= with the list when available.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de internet- > drafts@ietf.org > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 25 novembre 2015 11:36 > =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc=A0: sfc@ietf.org > Objet=A0: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining Working Group > of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Control Plane > Components & Requirements > Authors : Hongyu Li > Qin Wu > Yong(Oliver) Huang > Mohamed Boucadair > Christian Jacquenet > Walter Haeffner > Seungik Lee > Ron Parker > Linda Dunbar > Andrew Malis > Joel M. Halpern > Tirumaleswar Reddy > Prashanth Patil > Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01.txt > Pages : 27 > Date : 2015-11-25 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes requirements for conveying information > between Service Function Chaining (SFC) control elements and SFC > functional elements. Also, this document identifies a set of control > interfaces to interact with SFC-aware elements to establish, maintain > or recover service function chains. This document does not specify > protocols nor extensions to existing protocols. >=20 > This document exclusively focuses on SFC deployments that are under > the responsibility of a single administrative entity. Inter-domain > considerations are out of scope. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-01 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Wed Nov 25 12:02:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062F91B2F19 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Xs6sUltpqpD for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from hub021-ca-4.exch021.serverdata.net (hub021-ca-4.exch021.serverdata.net [64.78.22.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4F0B1B2F00 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.78]) by HUB021-CA-4.exch021.domain.local ([10.254.4.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:26 -0800 From: Ron Parker To: "Andrew G. Malis" , "Bottorff, Paul" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5emPvL6Hp77kOGF+aJe36w6Z6kIicggAFcfQCAADCFgIAEnguAgALjdmA= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:02:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <36EF1E54-A0D8-46CE-AF4F-EEDE873123E3@cisco.com> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABE3A@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.205.79.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CDF2F015F4429F458815ED2A6C2B6B0B6D6E02B0MBX021W3CA2exch_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Dolganow, Andrew \(Andrew\)" , Linda Dunbar , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "uri.elzur@intel.com" , Qin Wu Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 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FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tvDyvueAzWde for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBEFD1B2F95 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:33:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by wmec201 with SMTP id c201so3227037wme.0 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:33:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=4Li542Z0mnM5644DfCHzanFtY7Bi6y1smpVjmnWxGEY=; b=VC9BxjVBzKh2IhrpqmjC4E2zIYBnhJ/Vd/gB0DRRnaW27O7jNHev30Yw6TdEn4rNTt 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Malis" Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:32:41 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ron Parker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11469e2253f98a0525635dee Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "Dolganow, Andrew \(Andrew\)" , Linda Dunbar , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , "uri.elzur@intel.com" , Qin Wu Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:33:09 -0000 --001a11469e2253f98a0525635dee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron, While discussing the distinctions between Types 1 and 2, another thing that=E2=80=99s currently unsaid in the current text, but probably should be= , is that one of the TLV Types should be for the Type 1 four-octet unstructured metadata, making Type 2 a true superset of Type 1. There=E2=80=99s also a bug with section 14.2.3. The text should be correcte= d as follows: OLD: 14.2.3 . TLV Class Registry IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Types". These are 16- bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review" policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226 ]. NEW: 14.2.3 . TLV Class Registry IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Classes". These are 16- bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review" policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226 ]. I would then also recommend adding: TLV Class 0x0001 is allocated to =E2=80=9CIETF=E2=80=9D. For TLV Class x0001, there will be a new TLV Type registry. These are 7-bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review=E2=80=9D po= licy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226]. For TLV Class x0001, TLV Type x01 is allocated to =E2=80=9C32-bit unstructu= red metadata=E2=80=9D. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Ron Parker wrote: > There are 2 distinctions between types 1 and 2. > > > > Type 1: > > =C2=B7 Fixed length metadata > > =C2=B7 Unstructured metadata > > > > Type 2: > > =C2=B7 Variable length metadata > > =C2=B7 Structured metadata > > > > Wouldn=E2=80=99t type 1 be more flexible if it supported a variable lengt= h of > unstructured metadata? Perhaps in 4 byte increments? Then the > distinction would be only whether or not the metadata was structured and > perhaps a reasonable justification for the continued existence of both is > that the byte length to encode the additional structure in type 2 is > greater and perhaps less efficient to parse and that certain deployment > scenarios would benefit from the simplicity of type 1. > > > > Ron > > > > > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Andrew G. Malis > *Sent:* Monday, November 23, 2015 10:51 AM > *To:* Bottorff, Paul > *Cc:* sfc@ietf.org; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew) < > andrew.dolganow@alcatel-lucent.com>; Linda Dunbar ; > Paul Quinn (paulq) ; uri.elzur@intel.com; Qin Wu < > bill.wu@huawei.com> > > *Subject:* Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv > > > > I agree with Paul B. that interoperability is best served by using a > header that accommodates the greatest number of possible applications and > use cases as the common denominator. This argues for type 2 being the MUS= T > to implement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some > particular use cases or applications that require at most a particular > number context headers. > > > > In a separate email, Med asked a very reasonable question - for type 1, > why are there four mandatory context headers, rather than 2, 3, 5, 10, > etc.? The draft contains no particular justification for this choice. > > > > It=E2=80=99s true that there are two particular use > cases, draft-guichard-sfc-nsh-dc-allocation > and draft-napper-sfc-nsh-mobility-allocation, that look to make good use = of > exactly 4 context headers. However, these are just two particular example= s, > and not yet accepted by the WG. Further development of these drafts, or > even implementation, may show that four are insufficient. > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bottorff, Paul > wrote: > > I think we all could agree that fixed headers are easier to implement tha= n > TLVs, however that does not rationalize mandating a fixed header > implementation. It would rationalize supporting only fixed length headers= , > however we have been unable to do this. Options always weaken standards > agreement. > > > > If the application requires TLVs, then it does not provide any standards > advantage to mandate support for fixed headers. It will not be possible f= or > an application that requires TLVs to fall back to fixed length headers. I= f > they could, then we should eliminate the TLV option from NSH. > > > > IMHO we should be looking at the abstract semantics for meta-data before > we consider how to encode it. Once we decide what needs to be encoded the= n > we can consider the best encodings and what should be mandatory or > optional. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Paul > > *From:* sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Paul Quinn > (paulq) > *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2015 6:27 AM > *To:* Qin Wu > *Cc:* uri.elzur@intel.com; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew); sfc@ietf.org; Linda > Dunbar > *Subject:* Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv > > > > > > On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Qin Wu wrote: > > > > Hi, Andrew and Paul: > > It looks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context header in the > past, thanks Paul to point me the archive. > > Generally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and flexibility= . > > > > > > Absolutely, and that's the reason for offering the two options: balance > speed/simplicity and flexibility. > > > > The philosophy is to mandate the simplest form of metadata, enabling a > broad implementation base. If/when more flexibility is needed a more > flexible NSH type is available, along with the associated tradeoffs. > That's the balance that we decided to strike and it seems to be reasonabl= e > and well accepted. > > > > Thanks, > > Paul > > > > > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc > > > --001a11469e2253f98a0525635dee Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,

While discussing the distinctions = between Types 1 and 2, another thing that=E2=80=99s currently unsaid in the= current text, but probably should be, is that one of the TLV Types should = be for the Type 1 four-octet unstructured metadata, making Type 2 a true su= perset of Type 1.

There=E2=80=99s also a bug with = section 14.2.3. The text should be corrected as follows:

OLD:=C2=A0

14.2.3.  TLV Class Registry


   IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Types".  These =
are 16-
   bit values.  Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Revie=
w"
   policy defined in RFC 52=
26 [RFC5226].



14.2.3.  TLV Class Registry


   IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Classes".  Thes=
e are 16-
   bit values.  Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Revie=
w"
   policy defined in RFC 52=
26 [RFC5226].






=
Cheers,
Andy


On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:02 PM= , Ron Parker <Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com>= wrote:

There are 2 distinctions between types 1 and= 2.

=C2=A0

Type 1:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Fixed length metadata

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Unstructured metadata

=C2=A0

Type 2:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Variable length metadata<= /span>

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Structured metadata

=C2=A0

Wouldn=E2=80=99t type 1 be more flexible if = it supported a variable length of unstructured metadata?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Perhap= s in 4 byte increments?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Then the distinction would be only whether or not the metadata was structured and perhaps a reasonable justif= ication for the continued existence of both is that the byte length to enco= de the additional structure in type 2 is greater and perhaps less efficient= to parse and that certain deployment scenarios would benefit from the simplicity of type 1.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew G. Malis
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:51 AM
To: Bottorff, Paul <paul.bottorff@hpe.com>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew) <andrew.dolganow@alcatel-lucent.com>; = Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>; uri.elzur@intel.com; Qin Wu= <bill.wu@huawei= .com>


Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

=C2=A0

I agree with Paul B. that interoperability is best s= erved by using a header that accommodates the greatest number of possible a= pplications and use cases as the common denominator. This argues for type 2= being the MUST to implement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some particular use cases or app= lications that require at most a particular number context headers.<= u>

=C2=A0

In a separate email, Med asked a very reasonable que= stion - for type 1, why are there=C2=A0four mandatory context headers, rath= er than 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? The draft contains no particular justification f= or this choice.

=C2=A0

It=E2=80=99s true that there are two particular use = cases,=C2=A0draft-guichard-sfc-nsh-dc-allocation and=C2=A0draft-napper-sfc-= nsh-mobility-allocation, that look to make good use of exactly 4 context he= aders. However, these are just two particular examples, and not yet accepted by the WG.=C2=A0 Further development of these drafts,= or even implementation, may show that four are insufficient.=

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Andy

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bottorff, Paul <= ;paul.bottorff@h= pe.com> wrote:

I think we all = could agree that fixed headers are easier to implement than TLVs, however t= hat does not rationalize mandating a fixed header implementation. It would rationalize supporting only fixed length headers, however we have= been unable to do this. Options always weaken standards agreement.<= u>

=C2=A0

If the applicat= ion requires TLVs, then it does not provide any standards advantage to mand= ate support for fixed headers. It will not be possible for an application that requires TLVs to fall back to fixed length headers. If= they could, then we should eliminate the TLV option from NSH.

=C2=A0

IMHO we should = be looking at the abstract semantics for meta-data before we consider how t= o encode it. Once we decide what needs to be encoded then we can consider the best encodings and what should be mandatory or optional. =

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= u>

=C2=A0

Paul

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Quinn (paulq)
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 6:27 AM
To: Qin Wu
Cc: uri.elz= ur@intel.com; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew); sfc@ietf.org; Linda D= unbar
Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrot= e:

=C2=A0

Hi, Andrew and Paul:

It looks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context header in the= past, thanks Paul to point me the archive.

Generally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and flexibility= .

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Absolutely, and that's the reason for offering t= he two options: balance speed/simplicity and flexibility.

=C2=A0

The philosophy is to mandate the simplest form of me= tadata, enabling a broad implementation base.=C2=A0 If/when more flexibilit= y is needed a more flexible NSH type is available, along with the associated tradeoffs.=C2=A0 That's the balance that we decide= d to strike and it seems to be reasonable and well accepted.<= /p>

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Paul

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

=C2=A0


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Violators will be prosecuted; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:38:54 -0500 X-IBM-Helo: d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com X-IBM-MailFrom: narten@us.ibm.com X-IBM-RcptTo: sfc@ietf.org Received: from b01cxnp22033.gho.pok.ibm.com (b01cxnp22033.gho.pok.ibm.com [9.57.198.23]) by d01dlp01.pok.ibm.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D10F938C8046 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by b01cxnp22033.gho.pok.ibm.com (8.14.9/8.14.9/NCO v10.0) with ESMTP id tAPKcrol24051726 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:38:53 GMT Received: from d01av02.pok.ibm.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/NCO v10.0 AVout) with ESMTP id tAPKcrTr020206 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:38:53 -0500 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com ([9.80.97.12]) by d01av02.pok.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/NCO v10.0 AVin) with ESMTP id tAPKcqkb020169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:38:53 -0500 Received: from cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com.us.ibm.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by cichlid.raleigh.ibm.com (8.14.4/8.12.5) with ESMTP id tAPKcqMU029917 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0500 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:38:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Thomas Narten To: sfc@ietf.org User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) SEMI-EPG/1.14.7 (Harue) FLIM/1.14.9 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Goj=F2?=) APEL/10.8 EasyPG/1.0.0 Emacs/23.1 (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MULE/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-Content-Scanned: Fidelis XPS MAILER x-cbid: 15112520-0041-0000-0000-0000027EB5EE Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] Draft minutes for the SFC Meeting in Yokohama X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:39:02 -0000 Below are the draft minutes for the Yokohama SFC meeting. Please send minor corrections to me directly, larger corrections should go to the list. Thanks! Minutes for SFC Meeting in Yokohoma (IETF 94) Minute takers: "Elzur, Uri" Dave Dolson Merged by: Thomas Narten > 00:00 Introduction (WG-chairs) - [5 minutes] > Agenda bashing, note-well, (WG-chairs) - [5 minutes] Stand-in chairs: Joel Halpern and Carlos Pignataro. Carlos kicks off the meeting. Arch published as an RFC, this is the 2nd RFC the WG released > 00:05 SFC Security Requirements (Presenter + open-mic) - [25 minutes] > > - SFC Environment Security Requirements (Daniel Migault) - [15 minutes] > - http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req-00.txt > - SFC Security Requirements Q&A (open-mic) - [10 minutes] Basic architecture: Divided to two plane. Attack Scenarios: The CP benefits from strong access control, in the Tenant User plane this is not the case as the tenant can craft any packet and controls both ends of the communication. Tenant can also measure which packets will take more resources, create loop or leak information and use those to launch DDOS. Another scenario: can discern if the client is on WL, RAN or other access method, force the user to provide some additional info to discern info about the user identity, location etc. Attacker can also change metadata Requirements: 2 type of categories 1) Plane Separation 2) SFC service itself In the talk today, focus on SFC specific: REQ14, 15, 16, 17. Recommend use of fixed length metadata to allow for more predictable performance and less exposure of what loads the nodes. REQ19 - keep isolation. Ability to detect the user in the domain to prevent man in the middle (MitM) attack Question to the WG: 2 additional requirements 23 and 24 - are they in scope? Q&A: Ramki - NFVRG has a draft about misconfiguration. Did you consider addressing miss configuration? Needs to be added to the draft, it is a major source for security exposure. Daniel - agree. Detect misconfiguration with auditing. Ramki: mention explicitly? Daniel: OK, I will get back. Linda: Similar to I2RS security reqirements: Can relax security if firewall around everything. Requirements should be based on whether there is a firewalled network or not. Have different reqirement for each type. Another issue is that without specificity, a user may discredit other requirements if they notice some of them as irrelevant. Daniel: all REQ are preceded by a scenario so if the scenario doesn't apply, no need to follow it. This is the reason the draft uses SHOULD vs. MUST. Linda: REQx mentions use of a FW, need to be specific, otherwise it is meaningless. Protects against what threat? Joel: asks for action to start 2 threads on the list for these issues. Nicolas - Disputes prohibitation against use of metadata for steering. Daniel: it is just "SHOULD". Nicolas: Also, important to allow components to share SFs, for efficiency. Metadata size is performance oriented not security, Where is the boundary? One use of the metadata is to carry multi tenant information. It provides efficiency. The draft seems to discourage that Surendra: Meaning of "Volume must be limited"? Daniel: Be careful about size of metadata; Surendra: But says "MUST" Daniel: agree Surendra: Important to protect both path and index. Uri: Is this draft REQ normative or not? Or good advice? This is especially important when it comes to some of the MUST like REQ24, which may have wire protocol implications. Joel -if WG adopts document, depends on SHOULD or MUST, which would be normative. WG needs to decide what will be normative. If the WG adopts the draft (or parts of it) it affects all the other documents including NSH. Carlos: Work was tasked because WG declared security important; thanks to Alia for raising issues. If a MUST is adopted, then it is normative. Uri: in that case, I hope this WG will not be more zealous than other WGs. Especially on MUST Requirements, which needs to be carefully analyze and with a proper scenario like what Linda suggested. Joel: point is WG members need to review and comment, possibly provide caveats Alia - Some WGs have been more relaxed and then later in the IETF process find that more rigor is required and they get sent back to the beginning. So my advice is for the WG to think before submitting their drafts and include all the necessary security provisions. This is especially important as SFC has some potential privacy exposures Al Morten: wrt threads on slide; are people who want to measure performance threats? Need to distinguish legitimate testers vs. those doing "reconnaisance". Sometimes the man-in-the-middle is a tester. Suggest to use API control for testing vs. reconnaissance. Sometimes the man in the middle is legitimate. Daniel: the point is to only allow legitimate devices (a tester would be legitimate) > 00:30 SFC Use Cases (Presenters + open-mic) - [30 minutes] > > - SFC Use Cases for Network Security (Eric Wang) - [10 minutes] > - https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wang-sfc-ns-use-cases-00.txt Scenario awareness is important: SPI may be different if the traffic is a response or a request. Need to classify based on Network and Application criteria: for example a SSL proxy will not be identified before the handshake is established and it may result in moving to another SPI . Service Function (slide 4): Embedding: beneficial to avoid unnecessary roundtrip to the classifier. Note color code on the slide for new requirements that are not in the current WG docs. E.g., Bypass / offloading - may require TCP state clearing too. Need to be reviewed in the offload mechanism. Tap mode - is an input device w/o output, requires a copy of the traffic and maybe more. Discussion needed Packet handling (slide 5): Results to allow multiple devices to make a joint decision. Poll of the room: Very few read the use case draft. Q&A: Carlos: who has read this? Show of hands? [Joel: very few] Al Moron: "I volunteer to read because we need more of this for measurements." Carlos: "who are on the hook" Diego Lopez: impression is using SFC to provide security. Joel: yes, the opposite. Diego: then title is misleading. Joel: send suggestion for better title to the list. Diego: I will. > - SFC Use Cases in Broadband (Wei Meng) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-meng-sfc-broadband-usecases/ Slide 3: SFC can be used to simplify the architecture of certain devices. If split out some SFC out of BNG, then the rest can be common such a switch today! Slide 4: Same for CPE which is complex, then it can be cheaper and simpler! Q&A: Kengo Naito: Is there NSH inside the CPE? Wei: Yes Slide 5: IPTV - special use case in BB scenario, as it is forked. The BNAS fwd and traffic is duplicated to STB. It is also not symmetric. Q to the WG: Is it one SFC and SFP or six different ones? Suggest to have ml discussion to follow. Slide 6 Issue-1: In legacy devices/architecture, the address pool is configured on the device itself. However using SFC - should it be distributed or centralized? Who provides input to BB network to steer the traffic? If asymmetric traffic inbound SFP and outbound SFP are separate. How do we ensure both have the same SF devices in the path? Slide 7 Issue-2 : In legacy devices/architecture, fwd-ing and control are integrated in one device. How to do it w SFC? NAT can send a session to SFF or to a physical witch. So now a 2nd or 3rd packet can be fwd by SFF feeing up NAT resources. For a high perf scenario, can use by-pass to avoid sending all the traffic to the NAT. Request WG adoption. Joel: we aren't going to progress the adoption question today. Chairs: Send a note to ml to ask for WG adoption of the document. Q&A: Kent Leung: many issues are wrt NAT: why is this just a broadband issue? Other issues are generic and overlapping too. Diego - the presentation is much to specific to particular architecture/solution. If we go this way, we will have 10M use cases. Should not go there. Joel - focus should be on use cases that drive new protocol needs / requirements. Carlos - Use case presented, should be Protocol or Security requirement driven. Wei: not to provide a solution Ericsson - How does this relate to broadband forum WT345 (?) Meng - will consider contributing there too > 01:00 SFC Architecture Discussion (Presenters + open-mic) - [50 Minutes] > > - UDP Overlay Transport For Network Service Header (Surendra Kumar) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kumar-sfc-nsh-udp-transport/ Transport is out of scope for the SFC WG. Today NSH editors have to go to each WG to get NSH supported . A draft in NVO3 WG for VxLAN-gpe, but it requires to operate a Virtual Network and is NOT native on top of UDP. It is out of scope for SFC, so Surendra presented this draft in the routing WG and received lots of feedback. Q&A: Carlos: does "signaling" mean signaling? Surendra: must be a way to indicate carrying NSH. Joel - commenting as an individual. Conflict between slide 2 (i.e. Transport out of scope) and slide 3 (i.e. ask SFC for UDP as transport for NSH) is confusing. Aiming for WG adoption for something outside of charter? Alia: it is outside the charter, but WG may discuss. UDP encap is not the hard part, but we need to understand security considerations. Knowledge to turn this from "NSH in UDP" to something that is reasonable to use; the knowledge to do that is within SFC. Joel: is it not the case that the same knowledge applies to all encap types. The same arguments would seem to apply to all of them. Agree that transports should not be work item. advice not to do it here? Alia: yes, same types of arguments apply, and if there is active interest in multiple transports, then maybe have a "general considerations" draft. Joel: I could understand a different general considerations draft. Alia: Discuss here because it is the first. Could consider general considerations. Lucy Yong - first, this is still a Transport draft. Second, we have a GRE draft and only need to register EtherType and get it done. Surendra - still, even with GRE still need to manage a virtual network? Daniel E/// - note discussion in DOTS. Are Service Providers ready to use UDP for such a purpose? Say on mailing list. Kengo Naito - I like this encap, but should not be WG recommendation. Dino - NSH runs over L4 transport, can use UDP like any other protocol like DNS. Made this comment to NSH authors few times. Dave Dolson- There is an EtherType in the NSH draft. Was it an omission not to relate to it? > - Map Assisted SFC Proxy using LISP (Albert Cabellos) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-cabellos-sfc-map-assisted-proxy/ Proxy may also need to re-classify as legacy may change the packet! RFC6830 offers a std interface to a way to store a key and retrieve it back later. This simplifies the Proxy Q&A: Kent Leung: How to deal with NFC-unaware device has rewritten 5-tuple? Is NAT ok changes the 5 tuple? Albert: this is an advantage: it can rewrite it Kent: who is doing rewrite when legacy SF creates a packet with brand new 5-tuple. How does mapper know it? Albert: SFC control function must be aware of that. Kent: now clear: proxy must be ready for new 5-tuples. Albert: control plane is aware of the mapping done by the NAT. Uri: this goes beyond the question of what to do in the case the SF changed the 5-tuple. It is the question of: is the SF trusted - for the sake of the 5 tuple, as well as the NSH header. There are opinions as if we need to allow for some SF that are and some that are not trusted. I assume all agree the SFF is part of the infrastructure and is trusted. We need to close on this for the NSH draft too. Albert: in my scenario, all elements are trusted. Lucy Yong: with these applications, is it a LISP network, or just between the proxy & SF Albert: maybe semantics, but does not understand this as a LISP network. Wei Meng: if the packet is received by the proxy, does the proxy need to put the payload in the cache? Albert: depends on mappings of 5-tuple to NSH. Can be defined by prefix. > - Packet Generation in Service Function Chains (Reinaldo Penno) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-penno-sfc-packet/ SF need to generate packets on their own, intrinsic need of these devices. SF needs 3 pieces of data to be able to send a packet back. Options: 1) SFF sends this to the SF 2) SF sends NSH OAM to the SFF 3) Classifier - but that consumes lots of metadata space 4) Algorithmic - draft authors have invested time on this option and have also implemented in ODL How to determine the metadata? Key focus right now. Two options: 1. Path-invariant - Min amount of metadata an push it to every SF 2. Flow invariant - metadata in every packet in specific positions Q&A: David Dolson: I think this is important; I would like to work on it. Kent Leung: this is important, and an oversight. This needs to be addressed. > - Hierarchical Service Function Chaining (Dave Dolson) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dolson-sfc-hierarchical/ Problem space - for a large scale network/DC. Maybe Containers based. Large network and asymmetric traffic patterns (e.g. packets from WAN). And also for supporting multiple teams who need access to control / configure SFC elements: e.g., separate teams for Security, DDOS, network that are all involved. Many operators can't use a "Super controller" - a single controller to setup paths in the entire network - becoming a single point of failure and a performance bottleneck Slide 7 Mechanism - inbound into IBN is not too difficult, back is complex. Reviewed the CP drafts and found no issues yet. IBN is viewed as a SF and a Classifier to external higher hierarchy. Need to treat theses function independently. Q&A: x- Current SFC assumes single domain. This draft seems to require multi domain. What is the practical scenario? Dave - draft has examples. E.g. biz traffic vs residential services. The high level classifier sorts out what DC to use, and the low level classifier - controlled by a separate team, implements the paths and the features e.g. FW, NAT for a residential traffic and another team for the biz etc. Andy Beach NetCracker - looked into API for.. > 01:50 SFC Miscellaneous (Presenters + open-mic) - [35 minutes] > > - SFC Trace Issue Analysis & Solutions (Xinpeng Wei) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yang-sfc-trace-issue-analysis/ There are issues that are not covered by current drafts the WG has. Slide 4: frame format suggests that OAM can extend the MD-Type1 packet??? Q&A: Uri: you were showing OAM type 1, which is fixed size. Did you mean OAM type 2 for TLV structure? Joel: we could redefine the fixed length format as not fixed. We should discuss it. Presenter - agree Joel - we have fixed size for MD Type = 1, but can redefine if the WG thinks it is of value Erik Nordmark - OAM work assumed the trace packets go along the same path as regular packets, here the trace report goes to the controller which is a novel idea. We should study this new approach that allows packets to cause events in the control plane. Including potential DDOS against the controller? Carlos: please clarify: operations or security Erik: it feels novel. We know how to do tracert because it flows in reverse direction, but this feels new because it crosses into a different security domain. Kengo Naito: how to deal (in terms of getting OAM supported) with NSH-unaware service functions? Xinpeng: proxy is not here right now Kengo: we should get some OAM Xinpeng: ok > - SFC: Subscriber & Host Identification Considerations (TBD) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sarikaya-sfc-hostid-serviceheader/ Presented by Behcet Sarikaya Joel: on IMEI or subscriber ID, both arch and security draft indicate we should obscure that. Also it is a large thing to pass around. In security we said indirect IDs should be used. Also, we do have a draft for a list of useful TLVs, which has a subscriber ID. As a personal point of view, I'd rather see one draft of TLVs. WG also has a draft with proposed TLV for MD Type=2, pls join. Behcet: open to merging. Problem with merging drafts is loss of rationale and use case. > - SFC NSH Context Header Allocation -- Mobility (Praveen Muley) - [10 minutes] > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-napper-sfc-nsh-mobility-allocation/ Q&A: Uri: bothered by whether the WG can merge the bit allocation schemes. In some areas there is duplication of the same entity. Another way to pose the question is to ask what happens when a packet from mobility domain enters DC domain. Who does the mapping? Why is different information being carried? Can we strive to blend them together? Praveen: I guess the information is different. Uri - While I fully recognize that in some fields the info carried for the mobile case and the DC case are different it still makes sense to attempt to merge what is possible between DC and mobility bit allocation drafts. Also is there a case where the traffic will traverse te boundary between the two and hence will be good to make it easier with similar format? Uri: Looked at both drafts, and there is common information. Praveen: please post to lists. Surendra: I raised this earlier; there are some commonalities, which we can try to align. But use cases are different and we should align common parts. Kent Leung: should align formatting, but there are some that don't match. There is a draft proposing a bit for which is used? Dave Dolson: control plane is a possible way of setting the metadata "schema" for each SPI/SI at each node. Kent: also feels need to address. Not sure we want to create registry Dave Dolson - put it in the CP to tell what format to use where. It is a schema and it is important to the WG to work on it From nobody Wed Nov 25 12:58:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144061A8872 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:58:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XNYlTmScnuRs for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78D811A8894 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:58:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=26898; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448485133; x=1449694733; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=0eTGkL5UloxPzuEaNKgG1r1HgGGERaei2mYWrPTQWhg=; b=mpYj18KyAFT0hC8xUTxCKtnmuoYi1cnIb43funNrR6tesftP//t5q7d1 0E/1LnBxLaFGv7lX1oKyEndsWtHlxZb09wjykWrwlHgZYhZOEUzTIk+pt 6+mblbM4lunUAFIBlWUnHzPx1pdx0cOLqqDLTSiAWGNR/rEX8J9z9dyuJ s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D5AQA0IFZW/4MNJK1egm5NU2++QgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WYXAQmFbgKBRTgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEEAQEBC1cJCxACAQgRBAEBIQcHIQY?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAgQOBYgZAxINuWgNhGMBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIZUghCCb?= =?us-ascii?q?oJTgVcRAUwJgxOBFQWII4pMg2gBhSeGF4F2lQiHVQEfAQFChARyAQGDaYFBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?B?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.20,344,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217"; a="48100190" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 25 Nov 2015 20:58:52 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-009.cisco.com (xch-rtp-009.cisco.com [64.101.220.149]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPKwpdM010269 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:58:52 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-009.cisco.com (64.101.220.149) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:58:51 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:58:51 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "Andrew G. Malis" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5ejy7hwshPJkSenz9F/5cNK56kIicggAFcfQCAADCFgIAEnguAgALjdmCAAF2ngP//s35q Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:58:51 +0000 Message-ID: <0C166DA2-A718-48F8-B9A9-00BB241D6129@cisco.com> References: <36EF1E54-A0D8-46CE-AF4F-EEDE873123E3@cisco.com> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABE3A@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0C166DA2A71848F8B9A900BB241D6129ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "Dolganow, Andrew \(Andrew\)" , Linda Dunbar , "Paul Quinn \(paulq\)" , Ron Parker , "uri.elzur@intel.com" , Qin Wu Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:58:57 -0000 --_000_0C166DA2A71848F8B9A900BB241D6129ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Ron, Andy, MD Type 1 is not "unstructured" metadata. MD Type 1 has a pre-defined struc= ture and model. It does not use TLVs however, it is not self-describing but= its structure is pre-allocated (DC and mobility examples) and contextually= revealed. Hi, Ron, The benefit of an MD Type 1 is friendliness to hardware processing. Making = it of variable length defeats that goal and would make it in my opinion of = only very incremental value. Hi, Andy, What would be the goal of making MD Type 2 "a true superset of MD Type 1" w= hen it is really not a superset. [I can imagine (perhaps) that such Type va= lue might potentially be used in interworking scenarios, but I'd suggest no= t to go there and turn SFC into a routed layer network, and cross that brid= ge if we ever get there.] I do not see a use case for that four-32-bit-word (not four-octet) opaque T= ype. I do agree with the editorial bug you found. But I object with an allocation of a "32-bit (or 128-bit) unstructured data= " Type. And in any case, might be useful to discuss this within the context of http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv-00 Thanks! Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro. Excuze typofraphicak errows On Nov 25, 2015, at 15:33, Andrew G. Malis > wrote: Ron, While discussing the distinctions between Types 1 and 2, another thing that= =92s currently unsaid in the current text, but probably should be, is that = one of the TLV Types should be for the Type 1 four-octet unstructured metad= ata, making Type 2 a true superset of Type 1. There=92s also a bug with section 14.2.3. The text should be corrected as f= ollows: OLD: 14.2.3. = TLV Class Registry IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Types". These are 16- bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review" policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226= ]. NEW: 14.2.3. = TLV Class Registry IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Classes". These are 16- bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review" policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226= ]. I would then also recommend adding: TLV Class 0x0001 is allocated to =93IETF=94. For TLV Class x0001, there will be a new TLV Type registry. These are 7-bit= values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review=94 policy = defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226]. For TLV Class x0001, TLV Type x01 is allocated to =9332-bit unstructured me= tadata=94. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Ron Parker > wrote: There are 2 distinctions between types 1 and 2. Type 1: =95 Fixed length metadata =95 Unstructured metadata Type 2: =95 Variable length metadata =95 Structured metadata Wouldn=92t type 1 be more flexible if it supported a variable length of uns= tructured metadata? Perhaps in 4 byte increments? Then the distinction = would be only whether or not the metadata was structured and perhaps a reas= onable justification for the continued existence of both is that the byte l= ength to encode the additional structure in type 2 is greater and perhaps l= ess efficient to parse and that certain deployment scenarios would benefit = from the simplicity of type 1. Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Andrew G. Malis Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:51 AM To: Bottorff, Paul > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew) >; Lind= a Dunbar >; Paul Qu= inn (paulq) >; uri.elzur@intel.com<= mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com>; Qin Wu > Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv I agree with Paul B. that interoperability is best served by using a header= that accommodates the greatest number of possible applications and use cas= es as the common denominator. This argues for type 2 being the MUST to impl= ement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some particular use c= ases or applications that require at most a particular number context heade= rs. In a separate email, Med asked a very reasonable question - for type 1, why= are there four mandatory context headers, rather than 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? T= he draft contains no particular justification for this choice. It=92s true that there are two particular use cases, draft-guichard-sfc-nsh= -dc-allocation and draft-napper-sfc-nsh-mobility-allocation, that look to m= ake good use of exactly 4 context headers. However, these are just two part= icular examples, and not yet accepted by the WG. Further development of th= ese drafts, or even implementation, may show that four are insufficient. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bottorff, Paul > wrote: I think we all could agree that fixed headers are easier to implement than = TLVs, however that does not rationalize mandating a fixed header implementa= tion. It would rationalize supporting only fixed length headers, however we= have been unable to do this. Options always weaken standards agreement. If the application requires TLVs, then it does not provide any standards ad= vantage to mandate support for fixed headers. It will not be possible for a= n application that requires TLVs to fall back to fixed length headers. If t= hey could, then we should eliminate the TLV option from NSH. IMHO we should be looking at the abstract semantics for meta-data before we= consider how to encode it. Once we decide what needs to be encoded then we= can consider the best encodings and what should be mandatory or optional. Cheers, Paul From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Paul Quinn (paulq) Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 6:27 AM To: Qin Wu Cc: uri.elzur@intel.com; Dolganow, Andrew (Andr= ew); sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Qin Wu > wrote: Hi, Andrew and Paul: It looks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context header in the p= ast, thanks Paul to point me the archive. Generally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and flexibility. Absolutely, and that's the reason for offering the two options: balance spe= ed/simplicity and flexibility. The philosophy is to mandate the simplest form of metadata, enabling a broa= d implementation base. If/when more flexibility is needed a more flexible = NSH type is available, along with the associated tradeoffs. That's the bal= ance that we decided to strike and it seems to be reasonable and well accep= ted. Thanks, Paul _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_0C166DA2A71848F8B9A900BB241D6129ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Ron, Andy,

MD Type 1 is not "unstructured" metadata. MD Type 1 has a pr= e-defined structure and model. It does not use TLVs however, it is not self= -describing but its structure is pre-allocated (DC and mobility examples) a= nd contextually revealed. 

Hi, Ron,

The benefit of an MD Type 1 is friendliness to hardware processing. Ma= king it of variable length defeats that goal and would make it in my opinio= n of only very incremental value. 

Hi, Andy,

What would be the goal of making MD Type 2 "a true superset of MD= Type 1" when it is really not a superset. [I can imagine (perhaps) th= at such Type value might potentially be used in interworking scenarios, but= I'd suggest not to go there and turn SFC into a routed layer network, and cross that bridge if we ever get there.]<= /div>

I do not see a use case for that four-32-bit-word (not four-octet) opa= que Type. 

I do agree with the editorial bug you found. 

But I object with an allocation of a "32-bit (or 128-bit) unstruc= tured data" Type.

And in any case, might be useful to discuss this within the context of=  ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv-00

Thanks!

Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro.
Excuze typofraphicak errows

On Nov 25, 2015, at 15:33, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:

Ron,

While discussing the distinctions between Types 1 and 2, another thing= that=92s currently unsaid in the current text, but probably should be, is = that one of the TLV Types should be for the Type 1 four-octet unstructured = metadata, making Type 2 a true superset of Type 1.

There=92s also a bug with section 14.2.3. The text should be corrected= as follows:

OLD: 

14.2.3.  TLV Class Registr=
y


   IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Types".  These =
are 16-
   bit values.  Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Revie=
w"
   policy defined in RFC 52=
26 [RFC5226].

NEW:

14.2.3.  TLV Class Registr=
y


   IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Classes".  Thes=
e are 16-
   bit values.  Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Revie=
w"
   policy defined in RFC 52=
26 [RFC5226].


I would then also recommend adding:

TLV Class 0x0001 is allocated to =93IETF=94.

For TLV Class x0001, there will be a new TLV Type registry. These are = 7-bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review= =94 policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226].

For TLV Class x0001, TLV Type x01 is allocated to =9332-bit unstructur= ed metadata=94.

Cheers,
Andy


On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Ron Parker <Ro= n_Parker@affirmednetworks.com> wrote:

There are 2 distinctions between types 1 and= 2.

 

Type 1:

=B7        Fixed length metadata

=B7        Unstructured metadata

 

Type 2:

=B7        Variable length metadata<= /span>

=B7        Structured metadata

 

Wouldn=92t type 1 be more flexible if it sup= ported a variable length of unstructured metadata?   Perhaps in 4= byte increments?   Then the distinction would be only whether or not the metadata was structured and perhaps a reasonable j= ustification for the continued existence of both is that the byte length to= encode the additional structure in type 2 is greater and perhaps less effi= cient to parse and that certain deployment scenarios would benefit from the simplicity of type 1.

 

   Ron

 

 

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew G. Malis
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:51 AM
To: Bottorff, Paul <paul.bottorff@hpe.com>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew) <andrew.dolganow@alcatel-lucent.com>; = Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com>; Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>; uri.elzur@intel.co= m; Qin Wu <b= ill.wu@huawei.com>


Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

 

I agree with Paul B. that interoperability is best s= erved by using a header that accommodates the greatest number of possible a= pplications and use cases as the common denominator. This argues for type 2= being the MUST to implement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some particular use cases or app= lications that require at most a particular number context headers.<= u>

 

In a separate email, Med asked a very reasonable que= stion - for type 1, why are there four mandatory context headers, rath= er than 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? The draft contains no particular justification f= or this choice.

 

It=92s true that there are two particular use cases,=  draft-guichard-sfc-nsh-dc-allocation and draft-napper-sfc-nsh-mo= bility-allocation, that look to make good use of exactly 4 context headers.= However, these are just two particular examples, and not yet accepted by the WG.  Further development of these drafts,= or even implementation, may show that four are insufficient.=

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bottorff, Paul <= ;paul.bottorff@h= pe.com> wrote:

I think we all = could agree that fixed headers are easier to implement than TLVs, however t= hat does not rationalize mandating a fixed header implementation. It would = rationalize supporting only fixed length headers, however we have been unable to do this. Options always weaken sta= ndards agreement.

 

If the applicat= ion requires TLVs, then it does not provide any standards advantage to mand= ate support for fixed headers. It will not be possible for an application t= hat requires TLVs to fall back to fixed length headers. If they could, then we should eliminate the TLV option fro= m NSH.

 

IMHO we should = be looking at the abstract semantics for meta-data before we consider how t= o encode it. Once we decide what needs to be encoded then we can consider t= he best encodings and what should be mandatory or optional.

 

Cheers,<= u>

 

Paul =

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Quinn (paulq)
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 6:27 AM
To: Qin Wu
Cc: uri.elz= ur@intel.com; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew); sfc@ietf.org; Linda D= unbar
Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

 

 

On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrot= e:

 

Hi, Andrew and Paul:

It looks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context header in the= past, thanks Paul to point me the archive.

Generally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and flexibility= .

 

 

Absolutely, and that's the reason for offering the t= wo options: balance speed/simplicity and flexibility.

 

The philosophy is to mandate the simplest form of me= tadata, enabling a broad implementation base.  If/when more flexibilit= y is needed a more flexible NSH type is available, along with the associate= d tradeoffs.  That's the balance that we decided to strike and it seems to be reasonable and well accepted.<= u>

 

Thanks,

Paul

 


_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

 


_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
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25 Nov 2015 21:00:57 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (xch-rtp-007.cisco.com [64.101.220.147]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPL0uRQ007025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:00:57 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-007.cisco.com (64.101.220.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:00:56 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:00:56 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" Thread-Topic: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. Thread-Index: AQHQ8I9TaP+ioWasF0yH+cbhi+fUbJ4/uTKAgAE4bQCAAD5zgIAtWD4AgDJ0eICAAAQNgIAAA+EAgAAA+ACAAVwBgIAAJjmAgAAYMoCAAAgPAIAABEIA//+8hACAAO3HcIAAifwAgAYb6gCAAKICgIAA5pRwgAB/lYCAAAoZAIABmMLY Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:00:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <066.a5062f0b71b46ed47abec3662c87c450@tools.ietf.org> <55F9A3A1.8000100@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330053950B1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <55FADE19.4000703@joelhalpern.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F3F1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A61@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9F449@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6BCE198E4EAEFC4CAB45D75826EFB07614FF7A7C@eusaamb101.ericsson.se> <124FC034-8627-4976-846F-15136797DD48@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FC4B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8916AB2A-FE0C-4386-B617-96BC3087BE0E@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008C9FE25@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA04CD@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA1789@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA23B2@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> , <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA254A@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA254A@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Jim Guichard \(jguichar\)" , sfc issue tracker , "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:01:03 -0000 This reads as a positive change. I agree those relate to SFP and not SFC.=20 Thanks, Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro. Excuze typofraphicak errows > On Nov 24, 2015, at 10:38, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" wrote: >=20 > Re-, >=20 > I can make those changes. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : Jim Guichard (jguichar) [mailto:jguichar@cisco.com] >> Envoy=E9 : mardi 24 novembre 2015 16:02 >> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; sfc@ietf.org >> Cc : sfc issue tracker >> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane operate= s >> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>=20 >> Hi Med, >>=20 >> I would like to see =93SFC Forwarding Policy Table=94 replaced with =93S= FP >> Forwarding Policy Table=94 and =93SFC-specific traffic forwarding=94 rep= laced >> with =93SFP-specific traffic forwarding=94; forwarding is determined bas= ed >> upon the SFP *not* SFC. If you can make those changes the text looks goo= d. >>=20 >> Jim >>=20 >> On 11/24/15, 7:57 AM, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi Jim, all, >>>=20 >>> In order to make some progress, I suggest to make the following change = as >>> a resolution to the issue we are discussing. Other occurrences in the >>> draft will be tweaked too. >>>=20 >>> =3D=3D=3D >>> OLD: >>> o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC-specific >>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every >>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the existing >>> SFCs. >>>=20 >>> [[Note: The question of whether the data plane operates just in >>> terms of SFP IDs or needs SFC IDs, as described in this version >>> of the draft, is still under discussion among the authors.]] >>> NEW: >>> o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC-specific >>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for every >>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the existing >>> SFCs. The SFP Identifier (SFP-id) is used as a lookup key to >>> determine forwarding action regardless of whether the SFC is fully >>> constrained, partially constrained, or not constrained at all. >>> Additional information such as a flow identifier and/or other >>> characteristics (e.g., the 5-tuple transport coordinates of the >>> original >>> packet) may be used for lookup purposes. The set of information >>> to use for lookup purposes may be instructed by the control plane. >>> =3D=3D=3D >>>=20 >>> Please review this proposed text. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Med >>>=20 >>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>> De : Jim Guichard (jguichar) [mailto:jguichar@cisco.com] >>>> Envoy=E9 : lundi 23 novembre 2015 22:40 >>>> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>> Cc : sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org >>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>> operates >>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Med, >>>>=20 >>>> I think the point is that the SFP-id (not SFC-id or any other id) is >>>> used >>>> as the lookup key to determine forwarding action regardless of whether >>>> the >>>> SFC is fully constrained, partially constrained, or not constrained at >>>> all. Forwarding is simply realized by the result of the lookup on the >>>> SFP-id. >>>>=20 >>>> Jim >>>>=20 >>>> On 11/23/15, 2:00 AM, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Jim, >>>>>=20 >>>>> The excerpt you quoted is clear to me too. This is not where the >>>>> disconnect comes from. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The case of RSP is also clear. >>>>>=20 >>>>> The one which is less clear is when there are no constraints on the >> sfc >>>>> and, using the wording from the dp arch RFC, the decisions are >>>> "deferred >>>>> to the SFF about the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize th= e >>>>> SFC" (Section 2.3 of RFC 7665). Calling that case an SFP is odd since >>>> SFP >>>>> is by definition a "thought of as a constrained version of the >> original >>>>> SFC" (Section 2.3 of RFC 7665) >>>>>=20 >>>>> RFC7665 also ACKs "the specificity may be anywhere in between these >>>>> extremes" which I understand as the architecture allows for these >>>>> configurations: (1) fully distributed, (2) loose path, (3) strict >> path. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Med >>>>>=20 >>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>> De : Jim Guichard (jguichar) [mailto:jguichar@cisco.com] >>>>>> Envoy=E9 : jeudi 19 novembre 2015 15:43 >>>>>> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>>> Cc : sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Joel Halpern; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>> operates >>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Med, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 11/19/15, 2:45 AM, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Hi Jim, >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Let's me rephrase the issue. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> What we are discussing is related to this part of the draft (and >>>> some >>>>>>> other occurrences): >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>>>> o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the SFC- >>>> specific >>>>>>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for >> every >>>>>>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the >>>>>> existing >>>>>>> SFCs. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> [[Note: The question of whether the data plane operates >>>> just >>>>>> in >>>>>>> terms of SFP IDs or needs SFC IDs, as described in this >>>>>> version >>>>>>> of the draft, is still under discussion among the >>>> authors.]] >>>>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The current draft is generic as it allows to instruct via the cp >>>>>>> interfaces the underlying dp elements with SFC, SFP, RSP, and other >>>>>>> policies. When preparing the draft, I had a discussion with Joel >>>> about >>>>>>> this design. We both agreed that this is worth to be discussed. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I explained, and other have done that too, that both models should >>>> be >>>>>>> addressed. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The discussion revealed the definition in the dp RFC are too vague. >>>> We >>>>>>> need to resolve that as WG. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Jim> which document and what exactly is too vague? For example if we >>>>>> refer >>>>>> to section 2.3.1 of RFC7665 it states: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> "As an example of this progressive refinement, consider a Service >>>>>> Function Chain (SFC) that states that packets using this chain >>>> should >>>>>> be delivered to a firewall and a caching engine. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> A Service Function Path (SFP) could refine this, considering that >>>>>> this architecture does not mandate the degree of specificity an >>>> SFP >>>>>> has to have. It might specify that the firewall and caching >>>> engine >>>>>> are both to be in a specific data center (e.g., in DC1), or it >>>> might >>>>>> specify exactly which instance of each firewall and caching >> engine >>>> is >>>>>> to be used. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The Rendered Service Path (RSP) is the actual sequence of SFFs and >>>>>> SFs that the packets will actually visit. So if the SFP picked >>>> the >>>>>> DC, the RSP would be more specific.=94 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> What exactly is vague about this? Seems pretty clear, at least to >> me, >>>>>> how >>>>>> progressive refinement from SFC to eventual RSP is achieved. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Jim >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>> De : Jim Guichard (jguichar) [mailto:jguichar@cisco.com] >>>>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 17:18 >>>>>>>> =C0 : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>>>>> Cc : sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Paul Quinn (paulq); >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc- >>>>>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel Halpern; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control plane >>>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> [Chair hat off =85] >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I have to say I am struggling to see the =93issue=94 in this threa= d >>>> that >>>>>>>> needs >>>>>>>> to be addressed other than confusion over SFC vs SFP definition; >>>>>> from a >>>>>>>> data plane perspective it is *very* clear that SFP/SI identifiers >>>> are >>>>>>>> used >>>>>>>> as the lookup key into a forwarding construct that may contain >> 1:n >>>>>>>> number >>>>>>>> of next-hops (SFFs, SFs). In some cases that lookup will point to >>>> a >>>>>>>> single >>>>>>>> next-hop, in others multiple next-hops. In *all* cases this has >>>>>>>> absolutely >>>>>>>> nothing to do with the SFC as each representation of that SFC is >>>>>>>> uniquely >>>>>>>> identified by an SFP-id. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On 11/18/15, 10:19 AM, "sfc on behalf of Carlos Pignataro >>>> (cpignata)" >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Hi, Med, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I also referred to other parts of the document, when I wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about =B3SFC forwarding=B2 and =B3= SFC >>>> data >>>>>>>>>> plane=B2 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> For example, I am not sure I understand what this means: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> " o Populate SFC forwarding policy tables of involved SFC >> data >>>>>>>> plane=B2 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Or at: >>>>>>>>> " o SFC Forwarding Policy Table: this table reflects the >>>>>>>> SFC-specific >>>>>>>>> traffic forwarding policy enforced by SFF components for >>>> every >>>>>>>>> relevant incoming packet that is associated to one of the >>>>>> existing >>>>>>>>> SFCs." >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> My comment is that those should be =B3SFP" >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> =8B Carlos. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Med Boucadair >>>>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 10:03 AM >>>>>>>>> To: Carlos Pignataro >>>>>>>>> Cc: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , >>>>>>>>> "draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org" >>>>>>>>> , Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>> , sfc issue tracker >>>> , >>>>>>>>> "sfc@ietf.org" , Joel Halpern >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >> plane >>>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> There is not SFC ID in the core text of the control plane >> draft. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> The text you quoted is part of an appendix with a note that >>>> clearly >>>>>>>>>> states this is not discussed. A corresponding issue record has >>>> been >>>>>>>>>> recorded to seek for more feedback on that appendix. >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 15:35 >>>>>>>>>>> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN >>>>>>>>>>> Cc : Paul Quinn (paulq); >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>>> M. Halpern; sfc issue tracker; sfc@ietf.org; Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2015, at 8:08 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> Carlos, >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> This is an open issue for this draft, so it is normal to >>>>>> continue >>>>>>>>>>> discussing it. I don't know how you can conclude in advance >>>> that >>>>>> we >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>> circling. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> Discussion is great, Med. But my =8Cwe are circling' comment >>>> (not >>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>> advanced, but already evident) is because I saw the same >>>>>> questions, >>>>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> arguments, and same answers as before. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> "strongly believe" is not a technical argument, btw. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> Well, I believe so on technical grounds! Most of which have >>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>>>> said, so I do not want to contribute to the circular >>>> discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> The control-plane draft talks about =B3SFC forwarding=B2 and = =B3SFC >>>>>> data >>>>>>>>>>> plane=B2, >>>>>>>>>>> and =B3SFC IDs=B2. The architecture says that SFC are made of >>>>>> abstract >>>>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>>> functions. There=B9s no actual forwarding in this abstract >>>>>> conceptual >>>>>>>>>>> model. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> The control-plane draft says =B3Suppose the SFC ID for this SFP >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> "yellow=B2,=B2, and my point again is that in the data plane an >>>> SFP >>>>>> has >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> identifier (which identifies the SFP (SFP-ID) and is not the >>>>>>>> identifier >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> something else, it=B9s not a Topology-ID, it=B9s not a SKU, it= =B9s >>>> not >>>>>> a >>>>>>>> URI, >>>>>>>>>>> it=B9s not a Family Name, and not an SFC ID), and the control >>>> (and >>>>>>>>>>> policy) >>>>>>>>>>> plane can of course work with SFCs. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> My $0.02. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>> =8B Carlos. >>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> De : Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) >>>> [mailto:cpignata@cisco.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mercredi 18 novembre 2015 11:52 >>>>>>>>>>>>> =C0 : Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq); >>>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc- >>>>>>>>>>>>> control-plane@tools.ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern; sfc issue >>>>>> tracker; >>>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the control >>>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>> operates >>>>>>>>>>>>> on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am a bit baffled to see this thread again =8B it appears >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> discussion >>>>>>>>>>>>> restarted to continue in circles. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Med, >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> I too agree with Joel and strongly believe there is no >> need >>>>>> for >>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>>>>> identification passed down =8B there is no provisioning of >>>> SFCs >>>>>>>>>>> southbound. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> (Almost) every instance of =B3SFC=B2 in the control-plane >>>>>>>> requirements >>>>>>>>>>> draft >>>>>>>>>>>>> should really say =B3SFP=B2. There is no use of talking about >>>> SFCs >>>>>>>>>>> towards >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> data plane. The relationship between chains and paths is a >>>>>> policy >>>>>>>>>>> matter >>>>>>>>>>>>> which belongs in the policy/control itself, but not out of >>>>>> there. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> This is no different than what I said a few months ago on >>>> the >>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>>>> topic. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>> =8B Carlos. >>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 17, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Joel Halpern >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is provisioned into the SFF reflects the SFP. The >>>>>> control >>>>>>>>>>> system >>>>>>>>>>>>> decides whether that SFP indicates the same set of all >>>>>> possible >>>>>>>>>>> choices >>>>>>>>>>>>> that the SFC does, or is a proper subset. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In order to allow for an SFP that reflects meaningful >>>>>>>> constraints, >>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>> is provisioned has to be the SFP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No special provision is needed for the case where the SFP >>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> isomorphic >>>>>>>>>>>>> to the SFC. In such a case, you still provision the SFP. >>>> And >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> result >>>>>>>>>>>>> is an SFP with as much flexibility as the SFC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If, in contrast, you declare that the provisioning >>>> includes >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>>>>> you are introducing extra complexity without adding any >> new >>>>>> cases >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> can >>>>>>>>>>>>> be handled. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 9:03 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Joel Halpern; Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the >>>> control >>>>>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Joel, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> De : Joel Halpern [mailto:joel.halpern@ericsson.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 novembre 2015 14:49 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; Paul Quinn (paulq) Cc : >>>> sfc >>>>>>>> issue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Objet : RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the >>>> control >>>>>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your statement that " It happens that information is no >>>> more >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> service chain itself (without any constraints)." (Where >>>> "it" >>>>>>>>>>> refers >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the >>>> SFC".) >>>>>>>> Does >>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sense to me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Med] RFC 7665 says: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> " Thus, the policies and logic of SFP selection or >>>> creation >>>>>>>>>>> (depending >>>>>>>>>>>>>> upon the solution) produce what may be thought of as a >>>>>>>> constrained >>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of the original SFC. " >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in short: SFP is defined as a constrained version of the >>>>>>>> original >>>>>>>>>>> SFC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is the name to use to refer to a "non-constrained" >>>> SFC >>>>>> or >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> information that you will provision to an SFF when the >> path >>>>>>>>>>> computation >>>>>>>>>>>>> and selection decision is "deferred to the SFF"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not make sense to call a non-constrained version >>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>> SFP given that RFC7665 explicitly defines SFP as >>>> "constrained >>>>>>>>>>> version >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the original SFC"! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The SFC is the general description of the objective. >> That >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not the same as the exact sequence of places that >> must >>>> be >>>>>>>>>>> visited. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I stand by my earlier comments that almost all uses of >>>> SFC >>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control requirements draft should be SFP. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [Med] I noted that Joel.. that's fair but this position >> is >>>>>> IMHO >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>> aligned with RFC7665 that allows to control any variation >>>>>> from a >>>>>>>>>>> non- >>>>>>>>>>>>> constrained SFC to a fully constrained SFC. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 8:34 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Paul Quinn (paulq) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: sfc issue tracker; >>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane@tools.ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [sfc] #15 (control-plane): Whether the >>>> control >>>>>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> operates on SFC IDs, SFP IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for sharing your feedback. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RFC7665 says the following: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This architecture does not mandate the degree of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specificity of the SFP. Architecturally, within the >>>> same >>>>>> SFC- >>>>>>>>>>> enabled >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> domain, some SFPs may be fully specified, selecting >>>> exactly >>>>>>>> which >>>>>>>>>>> SFF >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and which SF are to be visited by packets using that >>>> SFP, >>>>>>>> while >>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SFPs may be quite vague, deferring to the SFF the >>>> decisions >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC. >>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specificity may be anywhere in between these extremes. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> " >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft is completely aligned with that >>>> approach. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The control-plane document allows in particular to >>>> provision >>>>>>>>>>> required >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> information when "deferring to the SFF the decisions >>>> about >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exact sequence of steps to be used to realize the SFC". >>>> It >>>>>>>>>>> happens >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that information is no more than the service chain >> itself >>>>>>>> (without >>>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constraints). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, the current control-plane document allows to >>>> instruct >>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> loose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> path >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (SFP) or a strict path (RSP), etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree that whether a full path is specified >>>> within >>>> a >>>>>>>>>>> domain >>>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if it is deferred to SFFs is really deployment-specific. >>>>>>>>>>> Nevertheless, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the control plan should accommodate all these flavors. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> De : Paul Quinn (paulq) [mailto:paulq@cisco.com] Envoy=E9 >>>> : >>>>>>>>>>> vendredi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 16 octobre 2015 14:04 =C0 : Joel M. Halpern Cc : >> BOUCADAIR >>>>>>>> Mohamed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IMT/OLN; sfc issue tracker; draft-ietf-sfc-control- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plane@tools.ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [sfc] >> #15 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (control-plane): Whether the control plane operates on >>>> SFC >>>>>>>> IDs, >>>>>>>>>>> SFP >>>>>>>>>>>>> IDs, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I concur. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The data plane deal with paths, not chains. The >>>>>> relationship >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paths to chains falls squarely in the control plane (or >>>>>> even >>>>>>>> more >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "policy" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plane) realm. The specificity of the path is left to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementation, in the architecture draft, but that's >>>>>>>> consistent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with your position and provides the requisite >>>>>> functionality. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 11:36 AM, Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, there is nothing in the Service >>>>>>>> Chaining >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requires correlating service path IDs with service >> chain >>>>>> IDs >>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the data plane. Any such relationship exists entirely >>>>>> within >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> control plane or above, and would be driven by >>>> requirements >>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than the data plane. When I look at this document, all >>>> of >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements that talk about service function chain IDs >>>> can >>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accurately captured, in terms of data plane >>>> requirements, >>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>>>>>>> function path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, the requirement that the data plane has is to see >>>>>> such >>>>>>>> path >>>>>>>>>>> IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, in some deployments those will be 1-1 with chain >>>> IDs. >>>>>>>> They >>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still path IDs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Introducing a requirement for the data plane to see >> and >>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IDs is not grounded in the work of the group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel M. Halpern >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/17/15 7:53 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Re-, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The control draft as it stands is compliant with the >>>> data >>>>>>>> plane >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> architecture document. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed, the arch draft acknowledges the following: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (1) SFPs are "associated with a given SFC". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (2) SFPs are presented as a form of constrained SFCs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (3) Some deployments may not impose any constraint on >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SFC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> sfc mailing list >>>>>>>>> sfc@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Wed Nov 25 13:07:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B4D1B3032 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:07:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mhpsLta5yTb8 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 552461B302C for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:07:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=32499; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448485641; x=1449695241; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=3h/G4/e9WxXG2OHxdfLCrn+VwCuf5EdjZj4DdNIDvX4=; b=QnyTSc45uQRVmI2p4lOXPTjRmIDkSZmA6uJ5rjHmSvXPQYZKpf6GL0/9 NKbprtrDfUffQ+n81DmLgpeI4gGUchTrkkODXunhFNf9hIxHAix7Vhgxc 8Bacts9Y3iKTJdkz6g0VUem/mma0DFf3fIzJnVOSrcxG0A+dn3AfDEVg2 E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D7AQAWIlZW/5RdJa1egm5NU2APBr48A?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2BZhcBCYI+gzACgUU4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBBAEBAQtXCQsQAgEIEQQBASE?= =?us-ascii?q?BBgchBgsUCQgCBA4FiBkDEg25aQ2EYwEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEh?= =?us-ascii?q?lSCEIJuglOBVxEBTAmDE4EVBYgjikyDaAGFJ4YXgXaVCIdVAR8BAUKEBHIBAYN?= =?us-ascii?q?pOoEHAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,344,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="212339626" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Nov 2015 21:07:20 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (xch-aln-017.cisco.com [173.36.7.27]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPL7KMw024280 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:07:20 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com (173.37.102.18) by XCH-ALN-017.cisco.com (173.36.7.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:07:18 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) by XCH-RCD-008.cisco.com ([173.37.102.18]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:07:19 -0600 From: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv Thread-Index: AQHRIy5ejy7hwshPJkSenz9F/5cNK56klIsAgADIkYCAADCGgIAEnguAgANq9ACAAAh0gIAAB0+AgAACXIA= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:07:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <36EF1E54-A0D8-46CE-AF4F-EEDE873123E3@cisco.com> <94DA9C7F532AD946852C9C5527195239254ABE3A@G1W3656.americas.hpqcorp.net> <0C166DA2-A718-48F8-B9A9-00BB241D6129@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0C166DA2-A718-48F8-B9A9-00BB241D6129@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.17.230] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D9046AE1A36E49E0B3129659613B8469ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" , "Bottorff, Paul" , "Dolganow, Andrew \(Andrew\)" , "Andrew G. Malis" , Linda Dunbar , Ron Parker , "uri.elzur@intel.com" , Qin Wu Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:07:25 -0000 --_000_D9046AE1A36E49E0B3129659613B8469ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My apologies, I'm behind on this thread... On Nov 25, 2015, at 3:58 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > wrote: Hi, Ron, Andy, MD Type 1 is not "unstructured" metadata. MD Type 1 has a pre-defined struc= ture and model. It does not use TLVs however, it is not self-describing but= its structure is pre-allocated (DC and mobility examples) and contextually= revealed. Hi, Ron, The benefit of an MD Type 1 is friendliness to hardware processing. Making = it of variable length defeats that goal and would make it in my opinion of = only very incremental value. I would add: the value of the fixed, simple size goes beyond hardware: soft= ware implementation derive significant benefit as well by not having to par= se a set of TLVs. I'm not saying they can't do it, rather that the simplic= ity and "cost" savings should not be ignored. Hi, Andy, What would be the goal of making MD Type 2 "a true superset of MD Type 1" w= hen it is really not a superset. [I can imagine (perhaps) that such Type va= lue might potentially be used in interworking scenarios, but I'd suggest no= t to go there and turn SFC into a routed layer network, and cross that brid= ge if we ever get there.] I do not see a use case for that four-32-bit-word (not four-octet) opaque T= ype. I do agree with the editorial bug you found. But I object with an allocation of a "32-bit (or 128-bit) unstructured data= " Type. And in any case, might be useful to discuss this within the context of http= s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv-00 Thanks! Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro. Excuze typofraphicak errows On Nov 25, 2015, at 15:33, Andrew G. Malis > wrote: Ron, While discussing the distinctions between Types 1 and 2, another thing that= =92s currently unsaid in the current text, but probably should be, is that = one of the TLV Types should be for the Type 1 four-octet unstructured metad= ata, making Type 2 a true superset of Type 1. There=92s also a bug with section 14.2.3. The text should be corrected as f= ollows: OLD: 14.2.3. = TLV Class Registry IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Types". These are 16- bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review" policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226= ]. NEW: 14.2.3. = TLV Class Registry IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Classes". These are 16- bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review" policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226= ]. I would then also recommend adding: TLV Class 0x0001 is allocated to =93IETF=94. For TLV Class x0001, there will be a new TLV Type registry. These are 7-bit= values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Review=94 policy = defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226]. For TLV Class x0001, TLV Type x01 is allocated to =9332-bit unstructured me= tadata=94. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Ron Parker > wrote: There are 2 distinctions between types 1 and 2. Type 1: =95 Fixed length metadata =95 Unstructured metadata Type 2: =95 Variable length metadata =95 Structured metadata Wouldn=92t type 1 be more flexible if it supported a variable length of uns= tructured metadata? Perhaps in 4 byte increments? Then the distinction = would be only whether or not the metadata was structured and perhaps a reas= onable justification for the continued existence of both is that the byte l= ength to encode the additional structure in type 2 is greater and perhaps l= ess efficient to parse and that certain deployment scenarios would benefit = from the simplicity of type 1. Ron From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Andrew G. Malis Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:51 AM To: Bottorff, Paul > Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew) >; Lind= a Dunbar >; Paul Qu= inn (paulq) >; uri.elzur@intel.com<= mailto:uri.elzur@intel.com>; Qin Wu > Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv I agree with Paul B. that interoperability is best served by using a header= that accommodates the greatest number of possible applications and use cas= es as the common denominator. This argues for type 2 being the MUST to impl= ement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some particular use c= ases or applications that require at most a particular number context heade= rs. In a separate email, Med asked a very reasonable question - for type 1, why= are there four mandatory context headers, rather than 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? T= he draft contains no particular justification for this choice. It=92s true that there are two particular use cases, draft-guichard-sfc-nsh= -dc-allocation and draft-napper-sfc-nsh-mobility-allocation, that look to m= ake good use of exactly 4 context headers. However, these are just two part= icular examples, and not yet accepted by the WG. Further development of th= ese drafts, or even implementation, may show that four are insufficient. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bottorff, Paul > wrote: I think we all could agree that fixed headers are easier to implement than = TLVs, however that does not rationalize mandating a fixed header implementa= tion. It would rationalize supporting only fixed length headers, however we= have been unable to do this. Options always weaken standards agreement. If the application requires TLVs, then it does not provide any standards ad= vantage to mandate support for fixed headers. It will not be possible for a= n application that requires TLVs to fall back to fixed length headers. If t= hey could, then we should eliminate the TLV option from NSH. IMHO we should be looking at the abstract semantics for meta-data before we= consider how to encode it. Once we decide what needs to be encoded then we= can consider the best encodings and what should be mandatory or optional. Cheers, Paul From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Paul Quinn (paulq) Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 6:27 AM To: Qin Wu Cc: uri.elzur@intel.com; Dolganow, Andrew (Andr= ew); sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Qin Wu > wrote: Hi, Andrew and Paul: It looks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context header in the p= ast, thanks Paul to point me the archive. Generally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and flexibility. Absolutely, and that's the reason for offering the two options: balance spe= ed/simplicity and flexibility. The philosophy is to mandate the simplest form of metadata, enabling a broa= d implementation base. If/when more flexibility is needed a more flexible = NSH type is available, along with the associated tradeoffs. That's the bal= ance that we decided to strike and it seems to be reasonable and well accep= ted. Thanks, Paul _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc --_000_D9046AE1A36E49E0B3129659613B8469ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: <150BD7E769BAD84F8F0593B2A2CA8D66@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My apologies, I'm behind on this thread...


On Nov 25, 2015, at 3:58 PM, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) &l= t;cpignata@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

Hi, Ron, Andy,

MD Type 1 is not "unstructured" metadata. MD Type= 1 has a pre-defined structure and model. It does not use TLVs however, it = is not self-describing but its structure is pre-allocated (DC and mobility = examples) and contextually revealed. 

Hi, Ron,

The benefit of an MD Type 1 is friendliness to hardware pro= cessing. Making it of variable length defeats that goal and would make it i= n my opinion of only very incremental value. 

I would add: the value of the fixed, simple size goes beyond hardware:= software implementation derive significant benefit as well by not having t= o parse a set of TLVs.  I'm not saying they can't do it, rather that t= he simplicity and "cost" savings should not be ignored.




Hi, Andy,

What would be the goal of making MD Type 2 "a true sup= erset of MD Type 1" when it is really not a superset. [I can imagine (= perhaps) that such Type value might potentially be used in interworking sce= narios, but I'd suggest not to go there and turn SFC into a routed layer network, and cross that bridge if we ever get= there.]

I do not see a use case for that four-32-bit-word (not four= -octet) opaque Type. 

I do agree with the editorial bug you found. 

But I object with an allocation of a "32-bit (or 128-b= it) unstructured data" Type.

And in any case, might be useful to discuss this within the= context of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv-00<= /a>

Thanks!

Thumb typed by Carlos Pignataro.
Excuze typofraphicak errows

On Nov 25, 2015, at 15:33, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> wrote:

Ron,

While discussing the distinctions between Types 1 and 2, an= other thing that=92s currently unsaid in the current text, but probably sho= uld be, is that one of the TLV Types should be for the Type 1 four-octet un= structured metadata, making Type 2 a true superset of Type 1.

There=92s also a bug with section 14.2.3. The text should b= e corrected as follows:

OLD: 

14.2.3.  TLV Class Registry


   IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Types".  These =
are 16-
   bit values.  Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Revie=
w"
   policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226].

NEW:

14.2.3.  TLV Class Registry


   IANA is requested to set up a registry of "TLV Classes".  Thes=
e are 16-
   bit values.  Registry entries are assigned by using the "IETF Revie=
w"
   policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226].


I would then also recommend adding:

TLV Class 0x0001 is allocated to =93IETF=94.

For TLV Class x0001, there will be a new TLV Type registry.= These are 7-bit values. Registry entries are assigned by using the "I= ETF Review=94 policy defined in RFC 5226 [RFC5226].

For TLV Class x0001, TLV Type x01 is allocated to =9332-bit= unstructured metadata=94.

Cheers,
Andy


On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Ron Parker <Ron_Parker@affirmednetworks.com> wrote:

There are 2 distinctions between = types 1 and 2.

 

Type 1:

=B7   &= nbsp;    Fixed length meta= data

=B7   &= nbsp;    Unstructured meta= data

 

Type 2:

=B7   &= nbsp;    Variable length m= etadata

=B7   &= nbsp;    Structured metada= ta

 

Wouldn=92t type 1 be more flexibl= e if it supported a variable length of unstructured metadata?   P= erhaps in 4 byte increments?   Then the distinction would be only whether or not the metadata was structured and perhaps a rea= sonable justification for the continued existence of both is that the byte = length to encode the additional structure in type 2 is greater and perhaps = less efficient to parse and that certain deployment scenarios would benefit from the simplicity of type 1.<= u class=3D"">

 

   Ron

 

 <= /a>

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.or= g] On Behalf Of Andrew G. Malis
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 10:51 AM
To: Bottorff, Paul <paul.bottorff@hpe.com>
Cc: sfc@ietf.org; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew) <andrew.dolg= anow@alcatel-lucent.com>; Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@huawei.com&= gt;; Paul Quinn (paulq) <paulq@cisco.com>; uri.elz= ur@intel.com; Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com>


Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

 

I agree with Paul B. that interoperability is best s= erved by using a header that accommodates the greatest number of possible a= pplications and use cases as the common denominator. This argues for type 2= being the MUST to implement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some particular use cases or app= lications that require at most a particular number context headers.

 

In a separate email, Med asked a very reasonable que= stion - for type 1, why are there four mandatory context headers, rath= er than 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? The draft contains no particular justification f= or this choice.

 

It=92s true that there are two particular use cases,=  draft-guichard-sfc-nsh-dc-allocation and draft-napper-sfc-nsh-mo= bility-allocation, that look to make good use of exactly 4 context headers.= However, these are just two particular examples, and not yet accepted by the WG.  Further development of these drafts,= or even implementation, may show that four are insufficient.=

 

Cheers,

Andy

 

 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 12:20 PM, Bottorff, Paul <= ;paul= .bottorff@hpe.com> wrote:

I th= ink we all could agree that fixed headers are easier to implement than TLVs= , however that does not rationalize mandating a fixed header implementation= . It would rationalize supporting only fixed length headers, however we have been unable to do this. Options alwa= ys weaken standards agreement.

&nbs= p;

If t= he application requires TLVs, then it does not provide any standards advant= age to mandate support for fixed headers. It will not be possible for an ap= plication that requires TLVs to fall back to fixed length headers. If they could, then we should eliminate the TLV o= ption from NSH.

&nbs= p;

IMHO= we should be looking at the abstract semantics for meta-data before we con= sider how to encode it. Once we decide what needs to be encoded then we can= consider the best encodings and what should be mandatory or optional.

&nbs= p;

Chee= rs,

&nbs= p;

Paul=

From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Paul Quinn (paulq)
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 6:27 AM
To: Qin Wu
Cc: uri.elzur@intel.com; Dolganow, Andrew (Andrew); sfc@ietf.org; Linda Dunbar
Subject: Re: [sfc] NSH context headers: fixed/tlv

 

 

On Nov 19, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Qin Wu <bill.wu@huawei.com> wrote:

 

Hi, Andrew and Paul:

It looks I missed a lot of discussion regarding NSH context he= ader in the past, thanks Paul to point me the archive.=

Generally speaking, there is tradeoff between performance and = flexibility.

 

 

Absolutely, and that's the reason for offering the t= wo options: balance speed/simplicity and flexibility.

 

The philosophy is to mandate the simplest form of me= tadata, enabling a broad implementation base.  If/when more flexibilit= y is needed a more flexible NSH type is available, along with the associate= d tradeoffs.  That's the balance that we decided to strike and it seems to be reasonable and well accepted.

 

Thanks,

Paul

 


_______________________________________________
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

 


__________________________________________= _____
sfc mailing list
sfc@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc

--_000_D9046AE1A36E49E0B3129659613B8469ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 22:49:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietf.org Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D5A1AD160; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:49:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.11.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151126064929.5744.67520.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 22:49:29 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 06:49:30 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining Working Group of the IETF. Title : Service Function Chaining (SFC) Control Plane Components & Requirements Authors : Hongyu Li Qin Wu Yong(Oliver) Huang Mohamed Boucadair Christian Jacquenet Walter Haeffner Seungik Lee Ron Parker Linda Dunbar Andrew Malis Joel M. Halpern Tirumaleswar Reddy Prashanth Patil Filename : draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02.txt Pages : 27 Date : 2015-11-25 Abstract: This document describes requirements for conveying information between Service Function Chaining (SFC) control elements and SFC functional elements. Also, this document identifies a set of control interfaces to interact with SFC-aware elements to establish, maintain or recover service function chains. This document does not specify protocols nor extensions to existing protocols. This document exclusively focuses on SFC deployments that are under the responsibility of a single administrative entity. Inter-domain considerations are out of scope. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-control-plane-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Nov 25 23:26:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A851B29FA for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.484 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.484 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MF5LkYz4V4Uz for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor36.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CE401B29FF for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id C5D464048E; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:26:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.32]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 9C4011A0065; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:26:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM32.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::8924:188:2124:a046%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:26:06 +0100 From: To: "Joel M. Halpern (jmh@joelhalpern.com)" Thread-Topic: Subscriber & Host Identification Considerations (was RE: [sfc] Draft minutes for the SFC Meeting in Yokohama) Thread-Index: AdEoG7MWnb8So7siSHO7JBbN6yOvSw== Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:26:06 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA3139@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: [sfc] Subscriber & Host Identification Considerations (was RE: Draft minutes for the SFC Meeting in Yokohama) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:26:10 -0000 Hi Joel, all, Some comments about this part of the minutes.=20 Please see inline. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Thomas Narten > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 25 novembre 2015 21:39 > =C0=A0: sfc@ietf.org > Objet=A0: [sfc] Draft minutes for the SFC Meeting in Yokohama >=20 > Below are the draft minutes for the Yokohama SFC meeting. Please send > minor corrections to me directly, larger corrections should go to the > list. >=20 > > - SFC: Subscriber & Host Identification Considerations (TBD) - > [10 minutes] > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sarikaya-sfc- > hostid-serviceheader/ >=20 > Presented by Behcet Sarikaya >=20 > Joel: on IMEI or subscriber ID, both arch and security draft indicate > we should obscure that.=20 [Med] draft-sarikaya-* inherits the security considerations from the arch R= FC and CP draft. Furthermore, it includes a dedicated discussion about Priv= acy considerations (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sarikaya-sfc-hostid-s= erviceheader-00#section-7). BTW, the draft does not recommend what informat= ion to enclose in the object as this is deployment-specific. =20 Also it is a large thing to pass around. In > security we said indirect IDs should be used. Also, we do have a draft > for a list of useful TLVs, which has a subscriber ID. As a personal > point of view, I'd rather see one draft of TLVs. WG also has a draft > with proposed TLV for MD Type=3D2, pls join. [Med] I guess you were referring to draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv. When writing d= raft-sarikaya-* back in September, draft-quinn wasn't yet there. That's sai= d, I'm OK with merging with draf-quinn. =20 >=20 > Behcet: open to merging. Problem with merging drafts is loss of > rationale and use case. >=20 From nobody Thu Nov 26 00:14:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1661B367E for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 00:14:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 40uSAlXnymck for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 00:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FBFE1B367C for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 00:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CAV34896; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:14:06 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SZXEMA412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.71) by lhreml403-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.217) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:14:03 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA502-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.4.87]) by SZXEMA412-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.71]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 16:12:20 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank)" To: "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHRKBuDtET1bUtm7ESfHAPvl6TSH56t72KA Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:12:19 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.135.43.91] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.5656BF4E.00B9, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.4.87, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: b4f281d35ea95e383185aa30503e2f6e Archived-At: Subject: [sfc] =?utf-8?b?6L2s5Y+ROiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9y?= =?utf-8?q?_draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:14:10 -0000 SGkgYWxsLA0KV2UgdXBkYXRlIGEgbmV3IC0wNCB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQuIFVudGls IG5vdywgdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBpcyBmb2N1c2VkIG9uIHByb3Bvc2luZyB0aGUgU0ZDIHNwZWNpZmlj IE9BTSBZQU5HIG1vZGVsIGJ5IGluaGVyaXRpbmcgYW5kIGV4dGVuZGluZyB0aGUgZXhpc3Rpbmcg d29yayBvZiBTRkMgWUFORyBtb2RlbCBhbmQgTElNRSBPQU0gWUFORyBtb2RlbC4gU28sIHRoaXMg ZHJhZnQgd2lsbCBrZWVwIG9uIGJlaW5nIHN5bmNocm9uaXplZCB3aXRoIHRoZSBsYXRlc3QgdXBk YXRlIG9mIHRoZSByZWxhdGVkIHdvcmsgb2YgTElNRSBhbmQgU0ZDIFlBTkcgbW9kZWxzLiBNZWFu d2hpbGUsIHRoZSBzZmMgb2FtIGZyYW1ld29yayBhbmQgc3BlY2lmaWMgZnVuY3Rpb25zIGFyZSBh bHNvIHZlcnkgaW1wb3J0YW50IHRvIGJlIGNvbnNpZGVyZWQuDQpZb3VyIHJldmlldyBhbmQgY29t bWVudHMgb24gdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBhcmUgZ3JlYXRseSBhcHByZWNpYXRlZCENCg0KQi5SLg0KRnJh bmsNCg0KLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBpbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHNA aWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzppbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIA0K5Y+R6YCB5pe26Ze0 OiAyMDE15bm0MTHmnIgyNuaXpSAxNToyNQ0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBYaWFsaWFuZyAoRnJhbmspOyBN b2hhbWVkIEJvdWNhZGFpcjsgRGVlcGFrIEt1bWFyOyBRaW4gV3U7IHdhbmd6aXRhbw0K5Li76aKY OiBOZXcgVmVyc2lvbiBOb3RpZmljYXRpb24gZm9yIGRyYWZ0LXhpYS1zZmMteWFuZy1vYW0tMDQu dHh0DQoNCg0KQSBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiBJLUQsIGRyYWZ0LXhpYS1zZmMteWFuZy1vYW0tMDQu dHh0IGhhcyBiZWVuIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWxseSBzdWJtaXR0ZWQgYnkgTGlhbmcgWGlhIGFuZCBwb3N0 ZWQgdG8gdGhlIElFVEYgcmVwb3NpdG9yeS4NCg0KTmFtZToJCWRyYWZ0LXhpYS1zZmMteWFuZy1v YW0NClJldmlzaW9uOgkwNA0KVGl0bGU6CQlZQU5HIERhdGEgTW9kZWwgZm9yIFNGQyBPcGVyYXRp b25zLCBBZG1pbmlzdHJhdGlvbiwgYW5kIE1haW50ZW5hbmNlIChPQU0pDQpEb2N1bWVudCBkYXRl OgkyMDE1LTExLTI1DQpHcm91cDoJCUluZGl2aWR1YWwgU3VibWlzc2lvbg0KUGFnZXM6CQkyMQ0K VVJMOiAgICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFm dC14aWEtc2ZjLXlhbmctb2FtLTA0LnR4dA0KU3RhdHVzOiAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vZGF0YXRy YWNrZXIuaWV0Zi5vcmcvZG9jL2RyYWZ0LXhpYS1zZmMteWFuZy1vYW0vDQpIdG1saXplZDogICAg ICAgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LXhpYS1zZmMteWFuZy1vYW0tMDQN CkRpZmY6ICAgICAgICAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9yZmNkaWZmP3VybDI9ZHJhZnQt eGlhLXNmYy15YW5nLW9hbS0wNA0KDQpBYnN0cmFjdDoNCiAgIFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgZGVmaW5l cyBZQU5HIGRhdGEgbW9kZWwgZm9yIFNlcnZpY2UgRnVuY3Rpb24gQ2hhaW5pbmcNCiAgIChTRkMg T3BlcmF0aW9ucywgQWRtaW5pc3RyYXRpb24sIGFuZCBNYWludGVuYW5jZSAoT0FNKS4gIEl0IGV4 dGVuZHMNCiAgIGZyb20gdGhlIGJhc2ljIFlBTkcgZGF0YSBtb2RlbCBmb3IgTGF5ZXIgaW5kZXBl bmRlbnQgT0FNIE1hbmFnZW1lbnQNCiAgIGRlZmluZWQgaW4gW0ktRC5pZXRmLWxpbWUteWFuZy1v YW0tbW9kZWxdIHdpdGggU0ZDIHRlY2hub2xvZ3kNCiAgIHNwZWNpZmljcy4gIEl0IGluY2x1ZGVz IFNGQyBPQU0gcmVsYXRlZCBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uLCBzdGF0ZSwgYW5kIFJQQw0KICAgaW5mb3Jt YXRpb24gZGF0YS4NCg0KICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIA0KDQoNClBsZWFzZSBub3Rl IHRoYXQgaXQgbWF5IHRha2UgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIHRoZSB0aW1lIG9mIHN1 Ym1pc3Npb24gdW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVkIHZlcnNpb24gYW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWlsYWJs ZSBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCg0KVGhlIElFVEYgU2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCg0K From nobody Thu Nov 26 02:00:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3D71B3877 for ; 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Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:00:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::cba:56d0:a732:ef5a%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:00:21 +0100 From: To: "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Responses to NSH open tickets Thread-Index: AQHRGKzzwNMRn7ESEEWTNnkkiNG1N56uJu5g Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:00:21 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA321A@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <1E890AFD-822D-44F0-95E5-72F507FFE1F1@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1E890AFD-822D-44F0-95E5-72F507FFE1F1@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Responses to NSH open tickets X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:00:26 -0000 Hi Paul, Please see inline. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Paul Quinn (paulq) > Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 6 novembre 2015 17:05 > =C0=A0: sfc@ietf.org > Objet=A0: [sfc] Responses to NSH open tickets >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Below is my analysis and responses to the NSH tracking tickets and my > suggested actions/next steps. >=20 > Thanks > Paul >=20 > ------------ > Ticket #1: Add a new field to include the SFC Identifier > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/1 >=20 > Reply: > The current NSH draft specifies a pathID, this has proven simple and > viable to implement. Implementation may (and do) utilize that pathID to > represent an abstract or specific path. If further specificty is desired= , > the NSH metadata may be used to carry other path information. I do not > plan to update the draft, given that there is no WG consensus for any > changes. >=20 [Med] It would be good to add a clarification to the document to be aligned= with the discussion we had for the control plane draft. Having this text i= ncluded is really helpful to increase clarity:=20 "The SFP Identifier (SFP-id) is used as a lookup key to determine forwarding action regardless of whether the SFC is fully constrained, partially constrained, or not constrained at all. Additional information such as a flow identifier and/or other characteristics (e.g., the 5-tuple transport coordinates of the original packet) may be used for lookup purposes. The set of information to use for lookup purposes may be instructed by the control plane." >=20 > Ticket #2: Remove "MD Type" field and the companion "MD-type 1" > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/2 >=20 > Reply: Having the ability specify formats for NSH has proven very useful. > This was raised on on list and there was no consensus for change, I > recommend this item be marked as resolved in the tracker. >=20 >=20 [Med] I'm following that discussion but I still don't get the answer about = why mandating 4 context headers. Why not 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? For me, this on= e is not resolved. > Ticket #3: Critical Metadata > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/3 >=20 > Reply: it is unclear what suggested action is being requested. If > further clarification of critical metadata in required, text can be added > to the draft, subject to WG review. >=20 [Med] the issue is that a metadata cane be critical for a given chain but n= ot for another one. It can be critical for a deployment but not for another= one it. Whether a metadata is critical or not should be left to the taste = of the operators. My suggestion is to let that flag a configurable paramete= r and have one single registry instead of two as currently defined.=20 >=20 > Ticket #4: Reuse the IPFIX registry for identifying context types > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/4 >=20 > Reply: The 400+ IPFIX information elements were created for a protocol > for IP Flow Information Export, and thus it would not be optimal to reuse > as there are many unneeded things. Consensus seems to want to prioritize > precision over blind reuse. I do not plan to update the draft and sugges= t > that this item be marked as resolved in the tracker. >=20 [Med] The advantage I see in reusing an existing registry is to avoid waiti= ng for codepoint assignments for NEW metadata needed for a given service de= ployment. My proposal is to define a dedicated field in the context header = "Registry ID": =20 =3D=3D Registry ID: In order to foster service innovation, this field allows to inherit from existing code point registries that are likely to be useful in a SFC context. The following value is reserved by this specification: 0: None. 1: IPFIX [IPFIX]. =3D=3D Some bits of the current TLV class can be grabbed for the Registry ID.=20 >=20 > Ticket #5: Support of SF Spirals > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/5 >=20 > Reply: This was answered on the list: http://www.ietf.org/mail- > archive/web/sfc/current/msg03188.html and therefore no changes are needed= . > Given that, this item can be marked as resolved. >=20 [Med] Adding some text to clarify spiral is supported would be helpful, IMO= . This is much better than looking in an email thread. > Ticket #6: Version Handling > https://tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/6 >=20 > Reply: Discussed on list: http://www.ietf.org/mail- > archive/web/sfc/current/msg03149.html. There was no consensus to changed > the adopted format, in fact the value of version bits seems well accepted > and therefore no changes are needed and the topic should be marked as > resolved in the tracker. >=20 [Med] Wouldn't you plan to update the text to describe the behavior when se= veral versions are supported by an SFC-aware node or when it receives a ver= sion it does not support? I thought that was part of the points discussed i= n that thread. >=20 > Ticket #7: reserved bits > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/7 >=20 > Reply: This text seems like a helpful clarification. Barring objection, > it can be added to the draft. >=20 >=20 [Med] OK, thanks. > Ticket #8: > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/8 >=20 > Reply: NSH and the use case draft seem consistent. However, it would be > helpful for the use case drafts to reference the allocations drafts, and > vice versa to provide a consistent view for readers. >=20 >=20 [Med] One of the comments is to cite the SFC use cases already adopted by t= he working group. > Ticket #9: Remove Section 2.2 > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/9 >=20 > Reply: The current version of the draft states: "A short reference is > included below, RFC 7498 [RFC7498], provides a > more comprehensive review of the SFC Problem Statement." That seems like > a reasonable approach, and propose marking this item as resolved. >=20 >=20 [Med] IMHO, a pointer to RFC7498 would be enough ; no need to reproduce her= e what was already covered in section 2 of RFC7498.=20 > Ticket #10: O bit > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/10 >=20 > Reply: Reserving a bit for OAM is acceptable, and done in other protocol > specifications. OAM-specific drafts exist and will leverage the presence > of the bit. Further, over time new OAM uses may arise, having the > explicit ability to support them day-0 is key. The O bit was agreed upon > by the WG during adoption, and there is no consensus to remove it. I > propose that a reference be added to the OAM framework draft. >=20 [Med] I do think it is odd to define a bit without specifying the associate= d behavior. Giving a name to a flag does not mean associate a meaning with = that flag. A flag name is not helpful for an implementer if the behavior as= sociated with it is not present in the spec.=20 The following text is underspecified as it is not clear what is meant by "M= UST examine the payload and take appropriate action".=20 =3D=3D=3D O bit: when set to 0x1 indicates that this packet is an operations and management (OAM) packet. The receiving SFF and SFs nodes MUST examine the payload and take appropriate action (e.g. return status information). OAM message specifics and handling details are outside the scope of this document. =3D=3D=3D=3D Adding a reference to the OAM framework draft would be OK if the OAM refere= nce is cited as a NORMATIVE one. I don't think this is what you have in min= d when you said "a reference be added to the OAM framework draft". > --------------- > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 26 07:27:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84CA11B3B37 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O15nUG9jzNwu for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A2AB1B3B36 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DE0259F2E; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:27:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96C14258CE6; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:27:47 -0800 (PST) To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA3139@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <565724E7.2000108@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:27:35 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA3139@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "sfc@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] Subscriber & Host Identification Considerations (was RE: Draft minutes for the SFC Meeting in Yokohama) X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:27:49 -0000 Thank you. My concern about the IMSI / IMEI was to make sure that we kept to the agreement we had reached with the security folks on an indirect reference. It sounds like you intended that, which means we are in agreement. It seems to me that it will be helpful to the WG to have a single document creating the initial metadata TLV type registry. Yours, Joel On 11/26/15 2:26 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi Joel, all, > > Some comments about this part of the minutes. > Please see inline. > > Cheers, > Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Thomas Narten >> Envoyé : mercredi 25 novembre 2015 21:39 >> À : sfc@ietf.org >> Objet : [sfc] Draft minutes for the SFC Meeting in Yokohama >> >> Below are the draft minutes for the Yokohama SFC meeting. Please send >> minor corrections to me directly, larger corrections should go to the >> list. >> >>> - SFC: Subscriber & Host Identification Considerations (TBD) - >> [10 minutes] >>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sarikaya-sfc- >> hostid-serviceheader/ >> >> Presented by Behcet Sarikaya >> >> Joel: on IMEI or subscriber ID, both arch and security draft indicate >> we should obscure that. > > [Med] draft-sarikaya-* inherits the security considerations from the arch RFC and CP draft. Furthermore, it includes a dedicated discussion about Privacy considerations (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sarikaya-sfc-hostid-serviceheader-00#section-7). BTW, the draft does not recommend what information to enclose in the object as this is deployment-specific. > > Also it is a large thing to pass around. In >> security we said indirect IDs should be used. Also, we do have a draft >> for a list of useful TLVs, which has a subscriber ID. As a personal >> point of view, I'd rather see one draft of TLVs. WG also has a draft >> with proposed TLV for MD Type=2, pls join. > > [Med] I guess you were referring to draft-quinn-sfc-nsh-tlv. When writing draft-sarikaya-* back in September, draft-quinn wasn't yet there. That's said, I'm OK with merging with draf-quinn. > >> >> Behcet: open to merging. Problem with merging drafts is loss of >> rationale and use case. >> From nobody Thu Nov 26 07:40:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B6D61B3B54; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:40:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aMb_d2-C7Z7s; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias92.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7173E1B3B52; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm11.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id A7D9A3B468B; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 16:39:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.24]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 77B6C35C079; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 16:39:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM7D.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::9044:c5ee:4dd2:4f16%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 16:39:57 +0100 From: To: Daniel Migault , "draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Mail regarding draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req Thread-Index: AdEoKfYOoEmizwoxRgqojtD4+Hr5QAAK4LOwAAJMTLA= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:39:56 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA36FE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA31CA@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C11219F1BA@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <2DD56D786E600F45AC6BDE7DA4E8A8C11219F1BA@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.11.26.142415 Archived-At: Cc: "sfc-sec-team@external.cisco.com" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Tirumaleswar Reddy \(tireddy\) \(tireddy@cisco.com\)" , "Behcet Sarikaya \(behcet.sarikaya@huawei.com\)" , "Dirk.von-Hugo@telekom.de" Subject: Re: [sfc] Mail regarding draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 15:40:01 -0000 Re-, (adding the sfc list as suggested by Behcet) The NEW proposed rationale looks good to me. It is much better than the ini= tial "one" sentence in -00. Thank you. BTW, it would be good to include a reference to, e.g.- https://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/rfc6973#section-5.2.2, as an example of what is meant by privacy-se= nsitive data.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: Daniel Migault [mailto:daniel.migault@ericsson.com] > Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 26 novembre 2015 16:18 > =C0=A0: BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment- > req@ietf.org > Cc=A0: Behcet Sarikaya (behcet.sarikaya@huawei.com); Dirk.von- > Hugo@telekom.de; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) (tireddy@cisco.com); sfc- > sec-team@external.cisco.com > Objet=A0: RE: Mail regarding draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req >=20 > Hi Mohamed, >=20 > Thanks for raising the concern. This is important for us to have feed > backs as one of the issue we have is to provide requirements that could b= e > well understood in any specific deployment case. > I am CC the sfc design team, as we are currently discussing the whole > scope/content of the draft. >=20 > The reason we mentioned MUST as a requirement was to specify that if you > do not follow the requirement your are at your own risk and must provide > the necessary means to prevent any leak - in our case enforcing the > necessary boundaries security policies that your environment / deployment > needs to enforce. >=20 > Would you agree with this way of defining requirements ? -- We are > planning to indicate it more clearly. >=20 > The working version provides more explanations on the scope and > applicability of the reqs. This has been done partly to address the > comment from Linda among others. Once we have a more stable version we ar= e > planning to put it on github. >=20 >=20 > What do you think of the following text ? >=20 > As a general guidance exposing privacy sensitive metadata in any > communications between two any SFC component should be avoided. [One way, > for example to avoid exposing privacy sensitive metadata is to include a > reference to the metadata instead of the metadata itself. Another way > could be to encrypt the metadata itself - but that is part of the solutio= n > space.] Applying this principle prevents any private oriented data to be > leaked. This requirement is mandatory when the SFC is not deployed in a > trusted environment. > When exposition of the privacy sensitive metadata cannot be avoided and > you are in a trusted domain, then exposing privacy sensitive metadata may > be considered as long as they do not leak outside the boundaries of the > trusted environment. In this case, the security is delegated to the > security policies of the trusted environment boundaries, that may be > outside the scope of SFC. More especially, the security policies may be > for example enforced by a firewall. In this specific case, the trusted > environment MUST prevent leakage of the metadata out of the trusted > environment and MUST ensure that untrusted node cannot access in any way > the communications within the trusted environment. >=20 > The reason we mentioned MUST as a requirement was to specify that if you > do not follow the requirement your are at your own risk and must provide > the necessary means to prevent any leak - in our case enforcing the > necessary security policies that your environment / deployment needs. >=20 > Would you agree with this way of defining requirements ? >=20 > BR, > Daniel >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com [mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 4:08 AM > To: draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req@ietf.org > Cc: Behcet Sarikaya (behcet.sarikaya@huawei.com); Dirk.von- > Hugo@telekom.de; Tirumaleswar Reddy (tireddy) (tireddy@cisco.com) > Subject: Mail regarding draft-mglt-sfc-security-environment-req >=20 > Bonjour Daniel, >=20 > Je te contacte =E0 propos du REQ15 : >=20 >=20 >=20 > REQ15: Communication MUST NOT reveal privacy sensitive metadata. >=20 > This requirement as currently worded is not accurate. It is not an issue > if SFC-tagged packets include privacy-related data (as this is already th= e > case within a domain: a network has access to that information anyway). > What is problematic is to LEAK that information OUTSIDE an administrative > domain From nobody Thu Nov 26 10:11:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E145D1A1B77 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:11:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PTvKj1LLk3SG for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:11:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FE491A1B76 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:11:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=8565; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448561463; x=1449771063; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=OSx09UQemHaOUX/j6vtjYh6+eama8Ltf2eqdX47Crls=; b=S+T/bFmL1RheK1s+iO9dI5Z0M/9Q3aKeecLGpSPru5rGB5c/3v+PJmLh q0Y0Z6JaCwAYHI7FBjsPTmfD0WNPm1Cx31F2ag7KyLzK/4e1rPRojPumN ZWUF0bpjv9/WzoG77RE9vBRk7bqEKuFJdwDfxxxVQUbQ8No+b5W+VlLMY 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0ArAgDOSldW/4sNJK1egztTaQYGvgIBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFkFwqFaQMCAoE0OBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQMBAQEBaxAHBAIBCBEEAQEoByc?= =?us-ascii?q?LFAkIAgQBEggBiB0ICAW+CAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARiLUoFAAYJpE?= =?us-ascii?q?AIBC4RxBYdKhVg5hRSDaAGFJ4JyhRSBY0mDeI1pgRCHRwEfAQFCghEdgVZyAYR?= =?us-ascii?q?YgQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,347,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="54172524" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 26 Nov 2015 18:11:01 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (xch-rcd-010.cisco.com [173.37.102.20]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAQIB1uu013693 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 26 Nov 2015 18:11:01 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com (173.37.102.30) by XCH-RCD-010.cisco.com (173.37.102.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:11:00 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) by XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com ([173.37.102.30]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 12:11:00 -0600 From: "Surendra Kumar (smkumar)" To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Paul Quinn (paulq)" , "sfc@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Responses to NSH open tickets Thread-Index: AQHRGKzzwNMRn7ESEEWTNnkkiNG1N56uJu5ggACSURA= Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 18:11:00 +0000 Message-ID: <068d784c957c445bb6a3fb4677bc4ac9@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> References: <1E890AFD-822D-44F0-95E5-72F507FFE1F1@cisco.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA321A@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA321A@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.106.202] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [sfc] Responses to NSH open tickets X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 18:11:06 -0000 Inline. Surendra. -----Original Message----- From: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of mohamed.boucadair@oran= ge.com Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:00 AM To: Paul Quinn (paulq) ; sfc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [sfc] Responses to NSH open tickets Hi Paul, Please see inline. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: sfc [mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Paul Quinn=20 > (paulq) Envoy=E9=A0: vendredi 6 novembre 2015 17:05 =C0=A0: sfc@ietf.org = Objet=A0 > : [sfc] Responses to NSH open tickets >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Below is my analysis and responses to the NSH tracking tickets and my=20 > suggested actions/next steps. >=20 > Thanks > Paul >=20 > ------------ > Ticket #1: Add a new field to include the SFC Identifier > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/1 >=20 > Reply: > The current NSH draft specifies a pathID, this has proven simple and=20 > viable to implement. Implementation may (and do) utilize that pathID=20 > to represent an abstract or specific path. If further specificty is=20 > desired, the NSH metadata may be used to carry other path information. =20 > I do not plan to update the draft, given that there is no WG consensus=20 > for any changes. >=20 [Med] It would be good to add a clarification to the document to be aligned= with the discussion we had for the control plane draft. Having this text i= ncluded is really helpful to increase clarity:=20 "The SFP Identifier (SFP-id) is used as a lookup key to determine forwarding action regardless of whether the SFC is fully constrained, partially constrained, or not constrained at all. Additional information such as a flow identifier and/or other characteristics (e.g., the 5-tuple transport coordinates of the original packet) may be used for lookup purposes. The set of information to use for lookup purposes may be instructed by the control plane." SK> It is not SFP-id alone. It is SFP+SI, to be correct, that leads to the = forwarding action. >=20 > Ticket #2: Remove "MD Type" field and the companion "MD-type 1" > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/2 >=20 > Reply: Having the ability specify formats for NSH has proven very useful. > This was raised on on list and there was no consensus for change, I=20 > recommend this item be marked as resolved in the tracker. >=20 >=20 [Med] I'm following that discussion but I still don't get the answer about = why mandating 4 context headers. Why not 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? For me, this on= e is not resolved. > Ticket #3: Critical Metadata > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/3 >=20 > Reply: it is unclear what suggested action is being requested. If=20 > further clarification of critical metadata in required, text can be=20 > added to the draft, subject to WG review. >=20 [Med] the issue is that a metadata cane be critical for a given chain but n= ot for another one. It can be critical for a deployment but not for another= one it. Whether a metadata is critical or not should be left to the taste = of the operators. My suggestion is to let that flag a configurable paramete= r and have one single registry instead of two as currently defined.=20 >=20 > Ticket #4: Reuse the IPFIX registry for identifying context types > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/4 >=20 > Reply: The 400+ IPFIX information elements were created for a=20 > protocol for IP Flow Information Export, and thus it would not be=20 > optimal to reuse as there are many unneeded things. Consensus seems to=20 > want to prioritize precision over blind reuse. I do not plan to=20 > update the draft and suggest that this item be marked as resolved in the = tracker. >=20 [Med] The advantage I see in reusing an existing registry is to avoid waiti= ng for codepoint assignments for NEW metadata needed for a given service de= ployment. My proposal is to define a dedicated field in the context header = "Registry ID": =20 =3D=3D Registry ID: In order to foster service innovation, this field allows to inherit from existing code point registries that are likely to be useful in a SFC context. The following value is reserved by this specification: 0: None. 1: IPFIX [IPFIX]. =3D=3D Some bits of the current TLV class can be grabbed for the Registry ID.=20 >=20 > Ticket #5: Support of SF Spirals > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/5 >=20 > Reply: This was answered on the list: http://www.ietf.org/mail-=20 > archive/web/sfc/current/msg03188.html and therefore no changes are needed= . > Given that, this item can be marked as resolved. >=20 [Med] Adding some text to clarify spiral is supported would be helpful, IMO= . This is much better than looking in an email thread. > Ticket #6: Version Handling > https://tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/6 >=20 > Reply: Discussed on list: http://www.ietf.org/mail-=20 > archive/web/sfc/current/msg03149.html. There was no consensus to=20 > changed the adopted format, in fact the value of version bits seems=20 > well accepted and therefore no changes are needed and the topic should=20 > be marked as resolved in the tracker. >=20 [Med] Wouldn't you plan to update the text to describe the behavior when se= veral versions are supported by an SFC-aware node or when it receives a ver= sion it does not support? I thought that was part of the points discussed i= n that thread. >=20 > Ticket #7: reserved bits > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/7 >=20 > Reply: This text seems like a helpful clarification. Barring=20 > objection, it can be added to the draft. >=20 >=20 [Med] OK, thanks. > Ticket #8: > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/8 >=20 > Reply: NSH and the use case draft seem consistent. However, it would=20 > be helpful for the use case drafts to reference the allocations=20 > drafts, and vice versa to provide a consistent view for readers. >=20 >=20 [Med] One of the comments is to cite the SFC use cases already adopted by t= he working group. > Ticket #9: Remove Section 2.2 > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/9 >=20 > Reply: The current version of the draft states: "A short reference is=20 > included below, RFC 7498 [RFC7498], provides a more comprehensive=20 > review of the SFC Problem Statement." That seems like a reasonable=20 > approach, and propose marking this item as resolved. >=20 >=20 [Med] IMHO, a pointer to RFC7498 would be enough ; no need to reproduce her= e what was already covered in section 2 of RFC7498.=20 > Ticket #10: O bit > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/10 >=20 > Reply: Reserving a bit for OAM is acceptable, and done in other=20 > protocol specifications. OAM-specific drafts exist and will leverage the= presence > of the bit. Further, over time new OAM uses may arise, having the > explicit ability to support them day-0 is key. The O bit was agreed=20 > upon by the WG during adoption, and there is no consensus to remove=20 > it. I propose that a reference be added to the OAM framework draft. >=20 [Med] I do think it is odd to define a bit without specifying the associate= d behavior. Giving a name to a flag does not mean associate a meaning with = that flag. A flag name is not helpful for an implementer if the behavior as= sociated with it is not present in the spec.=20 The following text is underspecified as it is not clear what is meant by "M= UST examine the payload and take appropriate action".=20 =3D=3D=3D O bit: when set to 0x1 indicates that this packet is an operations and management (OAM) packet. The receiving SFF and SFs nodes MUST examine the payload and take appropriate action (e.g. return status information). OAM message specifics and handling details are outside the scope of this document. =3D=3D=3D=3D Adding a reference to the OAM framework draft would be OK if the OAM refere= nce is cited as a NORMATIVE one. I don't think this is what you have in min= d when you said "a reference be added to the OAM framework draft". > --------------- > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc _______________________________________________ sfc mailing list sfc@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc From nobody Thu Nov 26 22:19:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0261ACD79 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:19:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hCJAn-37k5SI for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:19:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F18D61ACD78 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:19:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43181 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1a2CNg-00033b-4z; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:19:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "sfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.5 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.5, by Edgewall Software To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Trac-Project: sfc Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 06:19:40 -0000 X-URL: https://tools.ietf.org/sfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/18 Message-ID: <067.9df4155255e7f9166fd94d4f85865aa0@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 18 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, sfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Resent-To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151127061943.F18D61ACD78@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:19:43 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] #18 (nsh): Mandatory to implement MD Type X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 06:19:45 -0000 #18: Mandatory to implement MD Type Interoperability is best served by using a header that accommodates the greatest number of possible applications and use cases as the common denominator. This argues for type 2 being the MUST to implement, with type 1 being an optional optimization for some particular use cases or applications that require at most a particular number context headers. -- -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc- mohamed.boucadair@orange.com | nsh@tools.ietf.org Type: defect | Status: new Priority: major | Milestone: Component: nsh | Version: Severity: - | Keywords: -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Ticket URL: sfc From nobody Thu Nov 26 22:20:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726661ACD83 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:20:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIIq2qHfvG3n for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [IPv6:2001:1890:123a::1:2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EE281ACD82 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:20:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43312 helo=zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1a2COs-0005Ht-9x; Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:20:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "sfc issue tracker" X-Trac-Version: 0.12.5 Precedence: bulk Auto-Submitted: auto-generated X-Mailer: Trac 0.12.5, by Edgewall Software To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com X-Trac-Project: sfc Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 06:20:54 -0000 X-URL: https://tools.ietf.org/sfc/ X-Trac-Ticket-URL: https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/sfc/trac/ticket/19 Message-ID: <067.cab2ac7351c39145b242787570b38828@tools.ietf.org> X-Trac-Ticket-ID: 19 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: ::1 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@tools.ietf.org, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, sfc@ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Resent-To: draft-ietf-sfc-nsh@ietf.org Resent-Message-Id: <20151127062055.7EE281ACD82@ietfa.amsl.com> Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 22:20:55 -0800 (PST) Resent-From: trac+sfc@tools.ietf.org Archived-At: Cc: sfc@ietf.org Subject: [sfc] #19 (nsh): Mandatory context headers X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 06:20:56 -0000 #19: Mandatory context headers For type 1, why are there four mandatory context headers, rather than 2, 3, 5, 10, etc.? The draft contains no particular justification for this choice. -- -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Reporter: | Owner: draft-ietf-sfc- mohamed.boucadair@orange.com | nsh@tools.ietf.org Type: defect | Status: new Priority: major | Milestone: Component: nsh | Version: Severity: - | Keywords: -------------------------------------+------------------------------------- Ticket URL: sfc From nobody Sat Nov 28 08:38:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CD61B31B2; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 08:38:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IGFPw1rSBqbK; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 08:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net (usplmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 412751B31AD; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 08:38:31 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f799c6d000007d66-b3-5659d88514ef Received: from EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.84]) by usplmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 83.E5.32102.588D9565; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:38:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC004.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.84]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 11:38:30 -0500 From: Gregory Mirsky To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "lime@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" Thread-Topic: [Lime] Fwd: [sfc] New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHRKBuDtET1bUtm7ESfHAPvl6TSH56xo3wg Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 16:38:29 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A461@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1FBAAA75-255C-4682-BE55-0FDEA213AA55@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1FBAAA75-255C-4682-BE55-0FDEA213AA55@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.12] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A461eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrFIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPiG7rjcgwg8e7pS0+PbzEbPHp3Q4W i/8tM9gsOrZtZ7J48mAruwOrx5TfG1k9ds66y+6xZMlPpgDmKC6blNSczLLUIn27BK6MQxfu MxW8mstYcWrhCdYGxgszGbsYOTkkBEwkXn3azwphi0lcuLeeDcQWEjjCKHFhuUsXIxeQvZxR Ytn9R8wgCTYBI4kXG3vYQRIiAhsYJd6dfM0CkmAWcJf4sWorWJGwQLTE0u9LwCaJCMRI/Pn2 hh3CNpKY178azGYRUJU4P/cu2GZeAV+JK9evsUJs62CUONd4A2wQp4CtxJcJ18CKGIHO+35q 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LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc2ZjIj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NmYzwvYT48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Js b2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjxwIGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+ PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A478eusaamb103erics_-- From nobody Sat Nov 28 12:22:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 943D71B3588; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:22:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R2jJSqtm3aDr; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qg0-x230.google.com (mail-qg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AFAF1B3587; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by qgeb1 with SMTP id b1so93723994qge.1; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:22:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YDmyvEgTyVTHaCoBqVb0VMmEhxIbUcYAVgJ9Q/pnSt0=; b=FxBtxCnqTKu1LTg35zMRK9cTXmdPl+IedHsl+14lWI5z3kuhYmhWSvx1himGMMHO8E O9+aRqMhHuoxOK6Pd3ODoj6K4HdWVN/B8NcXZNBveoKOdt7a4E2SOwWqi+Lzke/8di4p qnBORhTDK9Zs3CbCDVgukuYFByk2CiMp+YjH5abZP6YraN9IYrT6paLSbMe9j70mLldd HXpity8XnfsNNcTZbpDZB+FoyW5rUtPczGr3h4eKfUre0dLuhAvXOThWdkU81b923jkj 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[99.241.125.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e184sm11887905qkb.40.2015.11.28.12.22.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Nov 2015 12:22:52 -0800 (PST) To: Gregory Mirsky , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "lime@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" References: <1FBAAA75-255C-4682-BE55-0FDEA213AA55@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A461@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> From: Tom Taylor Message-ID: <565A0D1B.2050509@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 15:22:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A461@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:22:54 -0000 The charter as I understand it says that LIME shapes the tool development, which is the other way around from what you propose. Tom Taylor On 28/11/2015 11:38 AM, Gregory Mirsky wrote: > Dear All, > this work underlines, in my opinion, one fundamental question that LIME WG been discussing for quite some time. Is data model of the particular OAM or for that OAM? If the latter, then we will be developing OAM protocols to much whatever data model been created. Does that sound right? I think that we first build up OAM tool box and then describe its data model with YANG. If that’s the other way around, we may end up with cart before the horse. > > Regards, > Greg > > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 6:50 AM > To: lime@ietf.org > Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org > Subject: [Lime] Fwd: [sfc] New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt > > FYI. > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: "Xialiang (Frank)" > > Date: November 26, 2015 at 3:12:19 AM EST > To: "sfc@ietf.org" > > Subject: [sfc] 转å‘: New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt > > Hi all, > We update a new -04 version of this draft. Until now, this draft is focused on proposing the SFC specific OAM YANG model by inheriting and extending the existing work of SFC YANG model and LIME OAM YANG model. So, this draft will keep on being synchronized with the latest update of the related work of LIME and SFC YANG models. Meanwhile, the sfc oam framework and specific functions are also very important to be considered. > Your review and comments on this draft are greatly appreciated! > ... From nobody Sat Nov 28 17:50:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9221B3913; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:50:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nvzZfr4quAIJ; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net (usplmg21.ericsson.net [198.24.6.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91A091B3911; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 17:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c6180641-f799c6d000007d66-52-565a59e3a04c Received: from EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.78]) by usplmg21.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 74.7E.32102.3E95A565; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 02:50:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB103.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.120]) by EUSAAHC002.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:50:28 -0500 From: Gregory Mirsky To: Tom Taylor , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , "lime@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , "Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)" Thread-Topic: [sfc] [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHRKhqRDy+o9sXnFkGwAACFqeWDY56yOnqg Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 01:50:28 +0000 Message-ID: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A7F9@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> References: <1FBAAA75-255C-4682-BE55-0FDEA213AA55@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A461@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <565A0D1B.2050509@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <565A0D1B.2050509@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPn+7jyKgwg6eNthafHl5itvj0bgeL xf+WGWwWHdu2M1k8ebCV3eLC+l8sDmweU35vZPXYOesuu8eSJT+ZApijuGxSUnMyy1KL9O0S uDIW3oksWCBb0dH9hKWB8YBMFyMnh4SAicTT+ydYIGwxiQv31rN1MXJxCAkcYZR49vI5K4Sz nFFi87kXzCBVbAJGEi829rCDJEQEbjBK3Nz/khEkwSzgLvFj1VawImGBaInLL9czdTFyABXF SNy84g0SFgHq/XD8Idg2FgFViWNTe8FaeQV8JVa/6oFa9ppR4srOlYwgvZwCmhKtU/VAahiB rvt+ag0TxCpxiVtP5jNBXC0gsWTPeWYIW1Ti5eN/rBC2ksTH3/PZQcYwA41Zv0sfolVRYkr3 Q3aItYISJ2c+YZnAKDYLydRZCB2zkHTMQtKxgJFlFSNHaXFBTm66keEmRmBMHZNgc9zBuLfX 8xCjAAejEg/vBonIMCHWxLLiytxDjBIczEoivP2sUWFCvCmJlVWpRfnxRaU5qcWHGKU5WJTE eRkZGBiEBNITS1KzU1MLUotgskwcnFINjAY7X1+Zk7Ax9++D1awTD8X3xxTLTd8z0yB12V1L 1qz++jAj1ZXHb01fyN1ylud2WItKhBEPc4iIA+O7ztq/Jvlepw9P4Be6OEv1geax5E3z90rr 8qptDz/Yc89YyVQ46n+EQDLXRn+x/2vCrB82lX421H++IOdXrNjqZwcuTli1Smnu+Wux+5VY ijMSDbWYi4oTAWkQU0KlAgAA Archived-At: Cc: "draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [sfc] [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2015 01:50:32 -0000 SGkgVG9tLA0KImd1aWRhbmNlIiBpcyBuZWl0aGVyIGRlZmluaW5nIE9BTSBwcm90b2NvbHMsIG5v ciBmb3JjaW5nIGFyYml0cmFyeSBtb2RlbCBvbnRvIG9uZXMgdGhhdCBhbHJlYWR5IGhhZCBiZWVu IGRldmVsb3BlZCBhdCBJRVRGIFdHcyAoaW4gZ2VuZXJhbCBJIGNvbXBhcmUgY3JlYXRpb24gb2Yg WUFORyBkYXRhIG1vZGVsIHRvIHdyaXRpbmcgTUlCIC0gb25lcyBwcm90b2NvbCBvciBzZXJ2aWNl IGFyZSBzdGFibGUsIHdlIHN0YXJ0IGFuZCBkbyBpdCBmYXN0KS4gVGhhdCdzIG15IGludGVycHJl dGF0aW9uIG9mIExJTUUgV0cgY2hhcnRlciBhbmQsIEFGQUlLLCBiZWluZyBzdHJlc3NlZCBieSBv dXIgQUQgYW5kIGNoYWlycy4gQnV0IEkgbWF5IGJlIHdyb25nLiBMZXQncyBsaXN0ZW4gdG8gd2hh 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YWxzbyB2ZXJ5IGltcG9ydGFudCB0byBiZSBjb25zaWRlcmVkLg0KPiBZb3VyIHJldmlldyBhbmQg Y29tbWVudHMgb24gdGhpcyBkcmFmdCBhcmUgZ3JlYXRseSBhcHByZWNpYXRlZCENCj4NCi4uLg0K From nobody Mon Nov 30 16:50:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B881B34CE; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:50:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GEdmrC4TSsMj; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:50:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0F011B34D0; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:50:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=25079; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448931019; x=1450140619; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=gstaCFs8IYC3JTN+zp4bDHpce9JqchzqIlqmCB7qg60=; b=VjSl8wEMiPkRavLTVTLFmaIFLLVM1FDb1RaUn1lTlJjW7rOWOPn0z7VL zvmADMvmdQnOAIXjje0MdO+w/rapwkWh3dJZZGEYgWY+YmwRDbAhV1C6g m7BOGOw8l4nSp7QyxgdJ/15bwggRGPoDd5+iFHZuR7iRQGENO/DTXaS+a A=; X-Files: signature.asc : 841 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DAAgBq7VxW/4QNJK1egm5NU28GviwOg?= =?us-ascii?q?WYXAQmFbgKBODgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEDAQEBASBLCQIFCwIBBgIRAwEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?gBwMCAiEGCxQJCAIEDgUOiAsDCggNjWudNYwZDYRXAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= 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[Lime] [sfc] New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHRK9I/FSGx9N11wUGyGKVx3bSXVg== Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 00:50:17 +0000 Message-ID: <7F42DD05-8A43-493B-B7D7-B193A32A1D18@cisco.com> References: <1FBAAA75-255C-4682-BE55-0FDEA213AA55@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A478@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A478@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.224.185] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F2916CC4-1A10-49FC-8532-14A1A002AC5F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "yang-coord@ietf.org" , "lime@ietf.org" , "draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Alia Atlas Subject: Re: [sfc] [Lime] New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 00:50:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F2916CC4-1A10-49FC-8532-14A1A002AC5F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_932F8BD3-34E8-49C2-832A-3BF3F4CF971D" --Apple-Mail=_932F8BD3-34E8-49C2-832A-3BF3F4CF971D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Greg, Given the right abstraction, the cart and the horse can go in parallel. The existence of a YANG model, if well designed, should not constrained = the potential future development of a new protocol (it might = modify/augment the model, or not). Conversely, a (potential) design of a = new protocol should not stop the development of the data model. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > On Nov 28, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Gregory Mirsky = wrote: >=20 > +yang-coord >=20 > From: Gregory Mirsky > Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 8:38 AM > To: 'Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)'; lime@ietf.org = ; 'sfc@ietf.org '; Alia Atlas = (akatlas@gmail.com ) > Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org = > Subject: RE: [Lime] Fwd: [sfc] New Version Notification for = draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt >=20 > Dear All, > this work underlines, in my opinion, one fundamental question that = LIME WG been discussing for quite some time. Is data model of the = particular OAM or for that OAM? If the latter, then we will be = developing OAM protocols to much whatever data model been created. Does = that sound right? I think that we first build up OAM tool box and then = describe its data model with YANG. If that=E2=80=99s the other way = around, we may end up with cart before the horse. >=20 > Regards, > Greg >=20 > From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) > Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 6:50 AM > To: lime@ietf.org > Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org = > Subject: [Lime] Fwd: [sfc] New Version Notification for = draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt >=20 > FYI. >=20 >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: "Xialiang (Frank)" > > Date: November 26, 2015 at 3:12:19 AM EST > To: "sfc@ietf.org " > > Subject: [sfc] =E8=BD=AC=E5=8F=91: New Version Notification for = draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt >=20 > Hi all, > We update a new -04 version of this draft. Until now, this draft is = focused on proposing the SFC specific OAM YANG model by inheriting and = extending the existing work of SFC YANG model and LIME OAM YANG model. = So, this draft will keep on being synchronized with the latest update of = the related work of LIME and SFC YANG models. Meanwhile, the sfc oam = framework and specific functions are also very important to be = considered. > Your review and comments on this draft are greatly appreciated! >=20 > B.R. > Frank >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: internet-drafts@ietf.org = [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org = ] > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2015=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5= 15:25 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Xialiang (Frank); Mohamed Boucadair; = Deepak Kumar; Qin Wu; wangzitao > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for = draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt has been = successfully submitted by Liang Xia and posted to the IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam > Revision: 04 > Title: YANG Data Model for SFC Operations, = Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) > Document date: 2015-11-25 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 21 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt = > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam/ = > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04 = > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04 = >=20 > Abstract: > This document defines YANG data model for Service Function Chaining > (SFC Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM). It extends > from the basic YANG data model for Layer independent OAM Management > defined in [I-D.ietf-lime-yang-oam-model] with SFC technology > specifics. It includes SFC OAM related configuration, state, and = RPC > information data. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org . >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 > _______________________________________________ > sfc mailing list > sfc@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc = --Apple-Mail=_932F8BD3-34E8-49C2-832A-3BF3F4CF971D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Greg,

Given= the right abstraction, the cart and the horse can go in = parallel.

The = existence of a YANG model, if well designed, should not constrained the = potential future development of a new protocol (it might modify/augment = the model, or not). Conversely, a (potential) design of a new protocol = should not stop the development of the data model.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 = Carlos.
= --Apple-Mail=_932F8BD3-34E8-49C2-832A-3BF3F4CF971D-- --Apple-Mail=_F2916CC4-1A10-49FC-8532-14A1A002AC5F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWXO7JAAoJEIXgpQGOZny9zswP/2flSW2fGjWXBivkY5+ubowT VYtv9ki4mJQW9UZ7K8p7dobfcO8HmQ3t1IrJTtOWz1Sdh6SsLIi71YXp88P6tJma YuDKpHynFv+ixjsLpf0leW+T1x09AcFZ/hYevocLTliYQnKoqzgsWFgQSSLnLbZw yXDXqSyOx4218t7QYEoojlCtKl3ggRBdgCVPEGfpfdyBCWOaZMF7RTUOvJ8uxfWa M4QYaQrveWNnXTVxYZ0m9Ge2A/chPP5DqjeBtozEUZGBXHfSVsmxSyXfFTRi1kb6 Odmf2O9MY+2dvEA5WrxdI1l6JLhJB3+WZzsfKVLMkCF8zi/PGdjYeMWmbI7/X26z yjbtPPzpNxre4OImGf4luCRzfP+Hyt62Sr99upR7jel4Yx97UZM7soEHzvbv4LDC 7PNc7Om2T6t8M9wsIA/BBtJsPD4l2vOGoCMXycCTCf1WPysaZXdaKFSpy82Cj3Vj rSJBF1mszj+ggtcHL7OaEIkUxm4gwLUg9JXOp1KTB8mnwpP0wmzUZiwlHM9QWAhu HFe5LalAVuzvPnjhuD7JAAzw5lYNthGFHsjGuOr5WRjHF9DQlgn+8PId115+nda4 k3eGJJLnHAmNfznf1c3vvrp9Z9Rq07T+BAvrVEofPtVKAscO1DvZFzRPXeGkjPKb lZcvCdW0hS4sgOfhnNoq =yfW2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F2916CC4-1A10-49FC-8532-14A1A002AC5F-- From nobody Mon Nov 30 16:59:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D6261B3506; 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Tue, 1 Dec 2015 00:59:10 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com (64.101.220.160) by XCH-RTP-017.cisco.com (64.101.220.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:59:09 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) by XCH-RTP-020.cisco.com ([64.101.220.160]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 19:59:09 -0500 From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" To: Gregory Mirsky Thread-Topic: [sfc] [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHRKhqQOpxvFMYDJUmlyT6Azh2+iJ6ykEEAgAMWU4A= Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 00:59:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1FBAAA75-255C-4682-BE55-0FDEA213AA55@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A461@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <565A0D1B.2050509@gmail.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A7F9@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A7F9@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.82.224.185] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_900347A0-533A-4019-9A63-1FBDA8CE7FDE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Alia Atlas , "lime@ietf.org" , "draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org" , "sfc@ietf.org" , Tom Taylor Subject: Re: [sfc] [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt X-BeenThere: sfc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Service Chaining List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 00:59:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_900347A0-533A-4019-9A63-1FBDA8CE7FDE Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1F344FB1-5062-498F-8286-533C05C95FC5" --Apple-Mail=_1F344FB1-5062-498F-8286-533C05C95FC5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Greg, =E2=80=9CForcing=E2=80=9D seems like hyperbole. (force /f=C3=B4rs/verb = 2. make (someone) do something against their will.) =E2=80=9CArbitrary=E2=80=9D seems like fallacy, (ar=C2=B7bi=C2=B7trar=C2=B7= y, adjective: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any = reason or system) A well designed data model can most certainly guide (guide /=C9=A1=C4=ABd/= 1. show or indicate the way to (someone). 2. direct or have an = influence on the course of action of (someone or something)) =E2=80=9Cothe= r IETF working groups developing new OAM protocols or modifying existing = OAM protocols, at any layer and for any technology=E2=80=9D (as per = charter). And as per charter, =E2=80=9CYANG model(s) specified in this working = group must be usable and extensible by the existing OAM technologies=E2=80= =9D Works both ways. My personal opinion wearing no hats. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Carlos. > On Nov 28, 2015, at 8:50 PM, Gregory Mirsky = wrote: >=20 > Hi Tom, > "guidance" is neither defining OAM protocols, nor forcing arbitrary = model onto ones that already had been developed at IETF WGs (in general = I compare creation of YANG data model to writing MIB - ones protocol or = service are stable, we start and do it fast). That's my interpretation = of LIME WG charter and, AFAIK, being stressed by our AD and chairs. But = I may be wrong. Let's listen to what others would like to add to the = discussion. >=20 > Regards, > Greg >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Taylor [mailto:tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 12:23 PM > To: Gregory Mirsky; Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); lime@ietf.org; = sfc@ietf.org; Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com) > Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [sfc] [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt >=20 > The charter as I understand it says that LIME shapes the tool = development, which is the other way around from what you propose. >=20 > Tom Taylor >=20 > On 28/11/2015 11:38 AM, Gregory Mirsky wrote: >> Dear All, >> this work underlines, in my opinion, one fundamental question that = LIME WG been discussing for quite some time. Is data model of the = particular OAM or for that OAM? If the latter, then we will be = developing OAM protocols to much whatever data model been created. Does = that sound right? I think that we first build up OAM tool box and then = describe its data model with YANG. If that=E2=80=99s the other way = around, we may end up with cart before the horse. >>=20 >> Regards, >> Greg >>=20 >> From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos >> Pignataro (cpignata) >> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 6:50 AM >> To: lime@ietf.org >> Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org >> Subject: [Lime] Fwd: [sfc] New Version Notification for >> draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt >>=20 >> FYI. >>=20 >>=20 >> Begin forwarded message: >>=20 >> From: "Xialiang (Frank)" >> > >> Date: November 26, 2015 at 3:12:19 AM EST >> To: "sfc@ietf.org" >> > >> Subject: [sfc] =E8=BD=AC=E5=8F=91: New Version Notification for >> draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt >>=20 >> Hi all, >> We update a new -04 version of this draft. Until now, this draft is = focused on proposing the SFC specific OAM YANG model by inheriting and = extending the existing work of SFC YANG model and LIME OAM YANG model. = So, this draft will keep on being synchronized with the latest update of = the related work of LIME and SFC YANG models. Meanwhile, the sfc oam = framework and specific functions are also very important to be = considered. >> Your review and comments on this draft are greatly appreciated! >>=20 > ... --Apple-Mail=_1F344FB1-5062-498F-8286-533C05C95FC5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Greg,

=E2=80=9CForcing=E2=80=9D seems like hyperbole. (force /f=C3=B4rs/verb 2. make = (someone) do something against their will.)

=E2=80=9CArbitrary=E2=80=9D= seems like fallacy, (ar=C2=B7bi=C2=B7trar=C2=B7y, adjective: 
based on random choice or personal = whim, rather than any reason or system
)

A well designed data model can most = certainly guide (guide /=C9=A1=C4=ABd/ 1. show or indicate the way to = (someone). 2. direct or have an influence on the course of action of = (someone or something)) =E2=80=9Cother IETF working groups developing = new OAM protocols or modifying existing OAM protocols, at any layer and = for any technology=E2=80=9D (as per charter).

And as per charter, =E2=80=9CYANG = model(s) specified in this working group must be usable and extensible = by the existing OAM technologies=E2=80=9D

Works both ways.
My personal opinion wearing no = hats.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.

On = Nov 28, 2015, at 8:50 PM, Gregory Mirsky <gregory.mirsky@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi = Tom,
"guidance" is neither defining OAM protocols, nor = forcing arbitrary model onto ones that already had been developed at = IETF WGs (in general I compare creation of YANG data model to writing = MIB - ones protocol or service are stable, we start and do it fast). = That's my interpretation of LIME WG charter and, AFAIK, being stressed = by our AD and chairs. But I may be wrong. Let's listen to what others = would like to add to the discussion.

= Regards,
Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Taylor [mailto:tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com]
Sent: = Saturday, November 28, 2015 12:23 PM
To: Gregory Mirsky; = Carlos Pignataro (cpignata); lime@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org; Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)
Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: [sfc] [Lime] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt

The charter = as I understand it says that LIME shapes the tool development, which is = the other way around from what you propose.

Tom Taylor

On 28/11/2015 11:38 = AM, Gregory Mirsky wrote:
Dear All,
this work underlines, in my opinion, = one fundamental question that LIME WG been discussing for quite some = time. Is data model of the particular OAM or  for that OAM? If the = latter, then we will be developing OAM protocols to much whatever data = model been created. Does that sound right? I think that we first build = up OAM tool box and then describe its data model with YANG. If that=E2=80=99= s the other way around, we may end up with cart before the horse.

=             &n= bsp;   Regards,
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;       Greg

From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carlos
Pignataro (cpignata)
Sent: Saturday, November = 28, 2015 6:50 AM
To: lime@ietf.org
Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org
Subject: = [Lime] Fwd: [sfc] New Version Notification for
draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt

FYI.


Begin = forwarded message:

From: "Xialiang (Frank)" =
<frank.xialiang@huawei.com<mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com>>
Date: November 26, 2015 at 3:12:19 AM EST
To: = "sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>"
<sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>>
Subject: [sfc] = =E8=BD=AC=E5=8F=91: New Version Notification for
draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt

Hi = all,
We update a new -04 version of this draft. Until now, = this draft is focused on proposing the SFC specific OAM YANG model by = inheriting and extending the existing work of SFC YANG model and LIME = OAM YANG model. So, this draft will keep on being synchronized with the = latest update of the related work of LIME and SFC YANG models. = Meanwhile, the sfc oam framework and specific functions are also very = important to be considered.
Your review and comments on = this draft are greatly appreciated!

...

= --Apple-Mail=_1F344FB1-5062-498F-8286-533C05C95FC5-- --Apple-Mail=_900347A0-533A-4019-9A63-1FBDA8CE7FDE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJWXPDdAAoJEIXgpQGOZny9G/kQAJbMsi+oDom084rgu3aZ0MMc DUYE4vcdopDhjdVZdHi1wlMa/7PNpTGf5Xdhe93fsQc57xmPKEiTLkC+doM+159G t716x36srhCo7iQbMUBJOl1ex9LyxCbjfUXh247zJ4SbaTlYPEI6rMaQ3/4ccw9x Vkf5IXLL+J8vm7281JO9wTWmnka85RgFHGfGX7BUctzgRLjYd8nO3qAFO0VoR/7s LQInJQ5xU2yFCJtYpQNzuICJEm3Q5pdW3c0no0xJ9wR4Zmx5pW6yPehet9Ev9I4i RVJOYQDbKu/RmRZ5JLZ8Trhv975B4u8D8N3260O9EDShFrIQ/jbYUl8qfuGPPnzd JsaQZBYs3APCF+fxPJDWyiKSzUxwaD2RWRIBEE2+cxUAc/8a+U+06rqmBYPGjMUd JTc5YzdZMdD8XAU4s0GyyXMQlF7jqNi+cDDeinXdY31Efid+mJrYolin6y6bbZJg 1/92Z3LBjGAThmCbe+UMN5ohCPvrqKajNj6eabZTXTKmjAvAgbSli36e82OSmmP+ d4PYvO766PcaUQW83+JBJ4VhTmifXxO2yoS8TSA42O2/j2qJ25I0Qd/uaxO1L7kw XUNA/0z1TheJ76fljnITKFa0eVewFqFIFBcJZaX39AA+0hpgdMcGn7bweid6NGbV uFdHjr6Ib37sMP32rzQf =NZsk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_900347A0-533A-4019-9A63-1FBDA8CE7FDE-- From nobody Mon Nov 30 17:45:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: sfc@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD59B1B3647; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:45:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JM9g6kAaIRhZ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from usplmg21.ericsson.net 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<1FBAAA75-255C-4682-BE55-0FDEA213AA55@cisco.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A461@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> <565A0D1B.2050509@gmail.com> <7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194A7F9@eusaamb103.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.10] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194BE68eusaamb103erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrHIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXSPt+7O3zFhBhsfWFp8eniJ2eLTux0s Fv9bZrBZdGzbzmTx5MFWdosL63+xOLB5TPm9kdVj56y77B5LlvxkCmCO4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL 4Mq4NX8nU8GMFYwVC259Y2xgvLOYsYuRk0NCwETi4s6Z7BC2mMSFe+vZuhi5OIQEjjBKfO16 wgjhLGeUODNtEhtIFZuAkcSLjT1gHSICZhKNjycxgRQxC1xmlPh/7D0zSEJYIFri8sv1QAkO oKIYiZtXvCHqnSTeLb7DCmKzCKhIrL/1FczmFfCV6F20FWy+kMAjJokrT5JBbE4BW4mV976z gNiMQNd9P7WGCcRmFhCXuPVkPhPE1QISS/acZ4awRSVePv7HCmErSUxaeo4Voj5fonfJPBaI 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PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_7347100B5761DC41A166AC17F22DF1122194BE68eusaamb103erics_--

On Nov 28, 2015, at 11:39 AM, Gregory Mirsky = <gregory.mirsky@ericsson.com> wrote:

+yang-coord
 
From: Gregory = Mirsky 
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 = 8:38 AM
To: 'Carlos Pignataro = (cpignata)'; lime@ietf.org; 'sfc@ietf.org'; Alia Atlas (akatlas@gmail.com)
Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Lime] Fwd: [sfc] New = Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt
 
Dear All,
this work underlines, in my opinion, one = fundamental question that LIME WG been discussing for quite some time. = Is data model of the particular OAM or  for that OAM? If the = latter, then we will be developing OAM protocols to much whatever data = model been created. Does that sound right? I think that we first build = up OAM tool box and then describe its data model with YANG. If that=E2=80=99= s the other way around, we may end up with cart before the horse.
 
          &nb= sp;     Regards,
          &nb= sp;            = ;         Greg
 
From: Lime [mailto:lime-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Carlos = Pignataro (cpignata)
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 = 6:50 AM
To: lime@ietf.org
Cc: draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam@ietf.org
Subject: [Lime] Fwd: [sfc] New = Version Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt
 
FYI.
 
 
Begin = forwarded message:
 
From: "Xialiang = (Frank)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
Date: November 26, = 2015 at 3:12:19 AM EST
To: "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: [sfc] =E8=BD=AC=E5=8F=91: New Version = Notification for draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt
 
Hi all,
We update a new -04 = version of this draft. Until now, this draft is focused on proposing the = SFC specific OAM YANG model by inheriting and extending the existing = work of SFC YANG model and LIME OAM YANG model. So, this draft will keep = on being synchronized with the latest update of the related work of LIME = and SFC YANG models. Meanwhile, the sfc oam framework and specific = functions are also very important to be considered.
Your = review and comments on this draft are greatly appreciated!

B.R.
Frank

-----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org] 
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97= =B6=E9=97=B4: 2015=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 15:25
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= : Xialiang (Frank); Mohamed Boucadair; Deepak Kumar; Qin Wu; = wangzitao
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for = draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt


A new version of I-D, draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.txt has been = successfully submitted by Liang Xia and posted to the IETF = repository.

Name:        &= nbsp;     draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam=
Revision:        <= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> 04
Title:        &= nbsp;       YANG Data Model for = SFC Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM)
Document date:        &= nbsp; 2015-11-25
Group:        &= nbsp;    Individual = Submission
Pages:        &= nbsp;     21
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04.= txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam/Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xia-sfc-yang-oam-04

Abstract:
  This = document defines YANG data model for Service Function Chaining
  (SFC Operations, Administration, and Maintenance = (OAM).  It extends
  from the basic YANG = data model for Layer independent OAM Management
  defined in [I-D.ietf-lime-yang-oam-model] with = SFC technology
  specifics.  It includes = SFC OAM related configuration, state, and RPC
  information data.




Please note that it may take a = couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version = and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

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