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Subject: [sfc] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Service Function Chaining: Subscriber and Performance Policy Identification Variable-Length Network Service Header (NSH) Context Headers
        Authors         : Behcet Sarikaya
                          Dirk von Hugo
                          Mohamed Boucadair
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2019-08-08

Abstract:
   This document defines Subscriber and Performance Policy Identifiers
   Network Service Header Variable-Length Context Headers to inform
   Service Functions about subscriber- and service-related information
   for the sake of policy enforcement and appropriate service function
   chaining operations.  The structure of each context header is
   defined, their use and processing instructions by SFC-aware nodes are
   explained.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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CC: "draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header@ietf.org>, "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy (TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com)" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
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Hi all,=20

The only point we had in our to-do-list for this I-D is about integrity pro=
tection, but as per the discussion in Prague#104 (https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/meeting/104/materials/slides-104-sfc-sfc-chair-slides-01) no change was=
 added to the draft. Having a generic mechanism seems more appropriate.

I'm currently discussing with Tiru about a first sketch of such generic mec=
hanism. We hope to have something to share by September/October. =20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: I-D-Announce [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de
> internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 8 ao=FBt 2019 09:48
> =C0=A0: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc=A0: sfc@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: I-D Action: draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03.txt
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Service Function Chaining WG of the IETF=
.
>=20
>         Title           : Service Function Chaining: Subscriber and
> Performance Policy Identification Variable-Length Network Service Header
> (NSH) Context Headers
>         Authors         : Behcet Sarikaya
>                           Dirk von Hugo
>                           Mohamed Boucadair
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 9
> 	Date            : 2019-08-08
>=20
> Abstract:
>    This document defines Subscriber and Performance Policy Identifiers
>    Network Service Header Variable-Length Context Headers to inform
>    Service Functions about subscriber- and service-related information
>    for the sake of policy enforcement and appropriate service function
>    chaining operations.  The structure of each context header is
>    defined, their use and processing instructions by SFC-aware nodes are
>    explained.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-serviceid-header-03
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 20:06:24 -0700
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To: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>
Cc: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>,  "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Dear Nagendra,
please kindly review my questions below. Looking forward to hearing from
you soon.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:12 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Nagendra,
> much appreciate your responses. Please find my notes in-line tagged GIM>>=
.
>
> Regards,
> Greg
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:58 PM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <
> naikumar@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Greg,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you for the comments. Please see our responses below.
>>
>>
>>
>> in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1 is
>> "ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined in Section 4=
.1)
>> to verify the availability of SF or SFC." When I looked through Section =
4.1
>> I find some discussion of a Fault Management function but no clear
>> definition of what is connectivity verification in SFC.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> Section 4.1 already list some of the OAM functions that can be
>> performed as part of connectivity function.
>>
> GIM>> My question was about the definition of the connectivity
> verification function used in the document. Also, do you believe that
> connectivity verification is a composite function that includes other OAM
> functions?
>
>>
>>
>> More so, it appears that connectivity verification is being mixed with
>> re-ordering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data integrity monitoring,
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> Please refer Section 2.2.7 of RFC7276 that explains MTU
>> verification as part of Connectivity verification. Section 3.1.1 already
>> explains the rationale behind including policy verification.
>>
> GIM>> Thank you for the reference to RFC 7276 but it does not state that
> Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) is part of CV. I believe that PMTUD can as wel=
l
> be supported by the continuity check function and one of the examples is
> the method described in draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets-00>. So, I
> don't feel you've addressed my question.
>
>>
>>
>> and some sort of policy verification. Real kitchen sink.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> The intention is to capture/highlight various OAM functions
>> based on the unique characteristics of SFC. Please read section 3.1.1 ab=
out
>> SF availability. It is already explained about what is (or why) policy
>> verification for SF availability. Accordingly, we humbly deny on this
>> comment.
>>
> GIM>> " Accordingly, we humbly deny on this comment." Which leaves me
> with no other option but to state that you've failed to resolve my
> technical comment.
>
>>
>>
>> At the same time, in other documents on network OAM, connectivity
>> verification has been firmly defined as a function that verifies that da=
ta
>> have been received only form the expected source over the expected path.=
 In
>> conjunction with this, a misconnection error is defined to indicate that
>> packets from another connection have been received. In other words, the
>> connectivity verification function verifies not only that packets from A
>> reach node B but that they arrive only on the red wire, not on blue or
>> yellow. Said all that, the interpretation of connectivity function in SF=
C
>> may be different but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide anythi=
ng.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> We dont understand your concern here. SFC OAM components
>> explains what is availability and PM for SF/SFC (Refer section 3.1.x and
>> 3.2.x) and tied it up with the function in section 4. The relevant secti=
ons
>> also highlight the difference in SFC (For example, what is availability =
in
>> terms of SF).
>>
> GIM>> "SFC OAM components explains what is availability ..."
> Can you provide the quote from this or other SFC OAM document that define=
s
> the SFC availability? I've been asking for one to no avail. Thank you in
> advance for clarifying this.
> GIM>> "The relevant sections also highlight the difference in SFC (For
> example, what is availability in terms of SF)."
> So, do you believe that SFC availability has some differences from SF
> availability? What are they? Is there a difference in measuring method or
> measurement units between the availability of an SFC and an SF? Please
> clarify.
>
>>
>>
>> Also, it is not clear how the last bullet "Proactively test alternate or
>> protected paths to ensure reliability of network configurations" is
>> specific to and requires the use of a connectivity function and why it
>> cannot be addressed by, for example, continuity check function.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> Thanks for highlighting this. We will add the same point under
>> Section 4.2. Hope that satisfies your concern.
>>
> GIM>> Not really. Section 4.1 opens with "Connectivity is mainly an
> on-demand function ..." and closes with "Proactively test alternate or
> protected paths ..". That draws the question How on-demand function can b=
e
> used to proactively monitor a path? Perhaps you can add an example.
>
>>
>>
>> Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SFC
>> "can be used for basic OAM functions". But I cannot find anywhere in the
>> document where the term, notion of "basic OAM functions" has been discus=
sed
>> or defined. Which functions considered as basic? ICMP can be used as the
>> fault management tool, to some extent because it is relatively processin=
g
>> extensive, but its value in performance monitoring is very low. Is PM OA=
M
>> not part of the basic OAM functions?
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> Thanks. To avoid any confusion, we modified it as below. Does
>> the below modification help?
>>
>>
>>
>> "It could be observed that ICMP at its current stage may not be able
>>
>>    to perform all required SFC OAM functions, but as explained above, it
>>
>>    can be used for some of the connectivity functions."
>>
> GIM>> The text is an improvement, thank you. But it refers to "all
> required SFC OAM functions" and I cannot find such list in the document.
> Can you propose another text?
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to
>> interpret the use of "availability". From "BFD or S-BFD could be leverag=
ed
>> to perform SF or SFC availability" it appears that the availability is
>> viewed as part of Fault Management OAM. (I'm still awaiting a response t=
o
>> my earlier questions specifically on the interpretation of "availability=
"
>> in the OAM Framework for SFC.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> Thanks, this looks like a valid point. We can change the same
>> as below:
>>
>>
>>
>> "BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF o=
r
>> SFC."
>>
> GIM>> Thank you, that works.
>
>>
>>
>> Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as "Upon
>> receiving the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back wi=
th
>> relevant DIAG code." But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode
>> operates, that is how only S-BFD works. The first sentence of the second
>> paragraph refers to both BFD and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph
>> describes the operation of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asynchronous mode. =
I
>> believe that either the positioning statement must be modified or
>> explanation of the operation of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provid=
ed.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> The intention is not to explain how it works for each BFD mode=
.
>> But to explain the common behavior. AFAIK/R, setting relevant DIAG code =
in
>> the response packet is common for both BFD and S-BFD. So we dont see any
>> confusion here.
>>
> GIM>> I am not saying that there's "any confusion", I'm pointing to clear
> technical mistake in the description of how BFD in Asynchronous mode
> operates. You may split the description of the mechanism for BFD and S-BF=
D
> or find another way to fix the erroneous text.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of iOAM to
>> availability: "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF
>> availability and SFC availability or performance measurement." I interpr=
et
>> this conclusion as the indication that availability is considered as par=
t
>> of the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the case, I question the
>> value of using one-way OAM for fault management because only the egress
>> node may have the state and even that is not demonstrated in existing iO=
AM
>> documents. In order to detect path failure, a node must have information
>> that can be used to detect the packet loss. That can be either
>> monotonically increasing sequence numbers or the notion that packets mus=
t
>> be arriving at pre-determined intervals. Which mechanism can be used by
>> iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regard to availability, appears as single-way=
 FM
>> OAM mechanism, that uses the actual data flow, what is its advantage
>> comparing to, for example, collecting and comparing counters from ingres=
s
>> and egress? In other words, even if the egress can detect the loss of it=
s
>> availability for the particular SFP, how such a notion can be used?
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> Section 6.4 is all about the applicability of different tools.
>> It neither concludes nor prefers one over the other. How the data is
>> collected, interpreted, used for failure detection or signaled back to t=
he
>> Initiator are expected to be explained in the solution document that
>> proposes iOAM as the tool for SFC OAM. As mentioned in the document scop=
e,
>> any solution specific info is outside the scope of this document and
>> accordingly we dont see a reason to include those details in this docume=
nt.
>>
> GIM>> I cannot find in your response what is being detected by iOAM. How,
> from OAM PoV, is the reception of iOAM packet at the edge SFF is differen=
t
> from receiving any data packet of the same flow? Without the clearly stat=
ed
> distinction, without explaining the benefit of using iOAM for this functi=
on
> the statement has no technical foundation and doesn't stand.
>
>>
>>
>> I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the individual
>> draft that had expired 3+ years ago. Usually, that is the indication tha=
t
>> neither authors nor the community are interested in the idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> <Authors> This was already clarified by Carlos in different thread. The
>> concept in the draft is already implemented and available in ODL.
>>
> GIM>> I cannot evaluate how the implementation is compared to the long-ag=
o
> expired draft, so using that draft as the reference is not helpful to a
> reader. Can yu find another source?
>
>>
>>
>> Hope the above clarifies your queries. We are addressing the agreed
>> comments and editorial comments that you raised in the other thread. We
>> will submit a new version with the fixes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nagendra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
>> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
>> *Date: *Monday, July 22, 2019 at 10:44 AM
>> *To: *James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
>> *Cc: *"sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Jim, Joe, et al.,
>>
>> I'd like to share my comments on Section of 6.4 of the draft. Much
>> appreciate your consideration and response to my questions.
>>
>>    - in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section
>>    4.1.1 is "ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined =
in
>>    Section 4.1) to verify the availability of SF or SFC." When I looked
>>    through Section 4.1 I find some discussion of a Fault Management func=
tion
>>    but no clear definition of what is connectivity verification in SFC. =
More
>>    so, it appears that connectivity verification is being mixed with
>>    re-ordering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data integrity monitoring,=
 and
>>    some sort of policy verification. Real kitchen sink. At the same time=
, in
>>    other documents on network OAM, connectivity verification has been fi=
rmly
>>    defined as a function that verifies that data have been received only=
 form
>>    the expected source over the expected path. In conjunction with this,=
 a
>>    misconnection error is defined to indicate that packets from another
>>    connection have been received. In other words, the connectivity
>>    verification function verifies not only that packets from A reach nod=
e B
>>    but that they arrive only on the red wire, not on blue or yellow. Sai=
d all
>>    that, the interpretation of connectivity function in SFC may be diffe=
rent
>>    but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide anything. Also, it i=
s not
>>    clear how the last bullet "Proactively test alternate or protected pa=
ths to
>>    ensure reliability of network configurations" is specific to and requ=
ires
>>    the use of a connectivity function and why it cannot be addressed by,=
 for
>>    example, continuity check function.
>>    - Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in
>>    SFC "can be used for basic OAM functions". But I cannot find anywhere=
 in
>>    the document where the term, notion of "basic OAM functions" has been
>>    discussed or defined. Which functions considered as basic? ICMP can b=
e used
>>    as the fault management tool, to some extent because it is relatively
>>    processing extensive, but its value in performance monitoring is very=
 low.
>>    Is PM OAM not part of the basic OAM functions?
>>    - Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to
>>    interpret the use of "availability". From "BFD or S-BFD could be leve=
raged
>>    to perform SF or SFC availability" it appears that the availability i=
s
>>    viewed as part of Fault Management OAM. (I'm still awaiting a respons=
e to
>>    my earlier questions specifically on the interpretation of "availabil=
ity"
>>    in the OAM Framework for SFC.
>>    - Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as "Upon
>>    receiving the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back=
 with
>>    relevant DIAG code." But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode
>>    operates, that is how only S-BFD works. The first sentence of the sec=
ond
>>    paragraph refers to both BFD and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph
>>    describes the operation of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asynchronous mod=
e. I
>>    believe that either the positioning statement must be modified or
>>    explanation of the operation of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP pro=
vided.
>>    - Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of
>>    iOAM to availability: "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to pe=
rform
>>    SF availability and SFC availability or performance measurement." I
>>    interpret this conclusion as the indication that availability is cons=
idered
>>    as part of the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the case, I
>>    question the value of using one-way OAM for fault management because =
only
>>    the egress node may have the state and even that is not demonstrated =
in
>>    existing iOAM documents. In order to detect path failure, a node must=
 have
>>    information that can be used to detect the packet loss. That can be e=
ither
>>    monotonically increasing sequence numbers or the notion that packets =
must
>>    be arriving at pre-determined intervals. Which mechanism can be used =
by
>>    iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regard to availability, appears as single-=
way FM
>>    OAM mechanism, that uses the actual data flow, what is its advantage
>>    comparing to, for example, collecting and comparing counters from ing=
ress
>>    and egress? In other words, even if the egress can detect the loss of=
 its
>>    availability for the particular SFP, how such a notion can be used?
>>    - I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the
>>    individual draft that had expired 3+ years ago. Usually, that is the
>>    indication that neither authors nor the community are interested in t=
he
>>    idea.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:37 AM James Guichard <
>> james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear WG:
>>
>>
>>
>> This message starts a new two week WG Last Call on advancing
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/
>> <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdat=
atracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7C=
james.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7Ce47e5eb13f224f18c46408d6e378b2f7%7C0fee8=
ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C636946504868870205&sdata=3DlkKvAgmKik=
7lkqGANQpnIvBRdbjKAqYtzTUdTfB9f3Y%3D&reserved=3D0>
>> for publication as an Informational RFC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Substantive comments and statements of support for publishing this
>> document should be directed to the mailing list. Editorial suggestions c=
an
>> be sent to the authors.  This last call will end on 11th June 2019.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim & Joel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sfc mailing list
>> sfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
>>
>>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Nagendra,<div>please kindly review my questions below=
. Looking forward to hearing from you soon.</div><div><br></div><div>Regard=
s,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr=
" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:12 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Nagendra,<div>much appreciate your responses. Please fi=
nd my notes in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</=
div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cl=
ass=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:58 PM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (n=
aikumar) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:naikumar@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">naikum=
ar@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718920281WordSec=
tion1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Hi Greg,<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Thank you for the commen=
ts. Please see our responses below.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">in regard to the applica=
bility of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1 is &quot;ICMP could be levera=
ged for connectivity function (defined in Section 4.1) to verify the availa=
bility of SF or SFC.&quot; When I looked through
 Section 4.1 I find some discussion of a Fault Management function but no c=
lear definition of what is connectivity verification in SFC.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Section =
4.1 already list some of the OAM functions that can be performed as part of=
 connectivity function.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt;=
 My question was about the definition of the connectivity verification func=
tion used in the document. Also, do you believe that connectivity verificat=
ion is a composite function that includes other OAM functions?=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718920281WordSection1"=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">More so, it appears that=
 connectivity verification is being mixed with re-ordering detection, Path =
MTU Discovery, data integrity monitoring,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Please r=
efer Section 2.2.7 of RFC7276 that explains MTU verification as part of Con=
nectivity verification. Section 3.1.1 already explains the rationale behind=
 including policy verification.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM=
&gt;&gt; Thank you for the reference to RFC 7276 but it does not state that=
 Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) is part of CV. I believe that PMTUD can as well=
 be supported by the continuity check function and one of the examples is t=
he method described in=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-bfd-large-packets-00" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets</a>=
. So, I don&#39;t feel you&#39;ve addressed my question.</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmai=
l-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718920281WordSection1"><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">and some sort of policy =
verification. Real kitchen sink.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; The inte=
ntion is to capture/highlight various OAM functions based on the unique cha=
racteristics of SFC. Please read section 3.1.1 about SF availability. It is=
 already explained about what is (or why)
 policy verification for SF availability. Accordingly, we humbly deny on th=
is comment.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; &quot;<span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">A=
ccordingly, we humbly deny on this comment.&quot; Which leaves me with no o=
ther option but to state that you&#39;ve failed to resolve my technical com=
ment.</span></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718=
920281WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">At the same time, in oth=
er documents on network OAM, connectivity verification has been firmly defi=
ned as a function that verifies that data have been received only form the =
expected source over the expected path.
 In conjunction with this, a misconnection error is defined to indicate tha=
t packets from another connection have been received. In other words, the c=
onnectivity verification function verifies not only that packets from A rea=
ch node B but that they arrive only
 on the red wire, not on blue or yellow. Said all that, the interpretation =
of connectivity function in SFC may be different but, in my opinion, Sectio=
n 4.1 does not provide anything.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; We dont =
understand your concern here. SFC OAM components explains what is availabil=
ity and PM for SF/SFC (Refer section 3.1.x and 3.2.x) and tied it up with t=
he function in section 4. The relevant sections
 also highlight the difference in SFC (For example, what is availability in=
 terms of SF).=C2=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; &q=
uot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">SFC OAM components explains what is av=
ailability ...&quot;</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Can =
you provide the quote from this or other SFC OAM document that defines the =
SFC availability? I&#39;ve been asking for one to no avail. Thank you in ad=
vance for clarifying this.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
">GIM&gt;&gt; &quot;</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">The relevant se=
ctions also highlight the difference in SFC (For example, what is availabil=
ity in terms of SF).&quot;</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
">So, do you believe that SFC availability has some differences from SF ava=
ilability? What are they? Is there a difference in measuring method or meas=
urement units between the availability of an SFC and an SF? Please clarify.=
</span></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D=
"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_177436405771892028=
1WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Also, it is not clear ho=
w the last bullet &quot;Proactively test alternate or protected paths to en=
sure reliability of network configurations&quot; is specific to and require=
s the use of a connectivity function and why it
 cannot be addressed by, for example, continuity check function.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks f=
or highlighting this. We will add the same point under Section 4.2. Hope th=
at satisfies your concern.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&=
gt; Not really. Section 4.1 opens with &quot;Connectivity is mainly an on-d=
emand function ...&quot; and closes with &quot;Proactively test alternate o=
r protected paths ..&quot;. That draws the question How on-demand function =
can be used to proactively monitor a path? Perhaps you can add an example.<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US">=
<div class=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718920281WordSec=
tion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Also, the very last sent=
ence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SFC &quot;can be used for basic =
OAM functions&quot;. But I cannot find anywhere in the document where the t=
erm, notion of &quot;basic OAM functions&quot; has been
 discussed or defined. Which functions considered as basic? ICMP can be use=
d as the fault management tool, to some extent because it is relatively pro=
cessing extensive, but its value in performance monitoring is very low. Is =
PM OAM not part of the basic OAM
 functions?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks. =
To avoid any confusion, we modified it as below. Does the below modificatio=
n help?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&quot;It could be observ=
ed that ICMP at its current stage may not be able<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 to perform =
all required SFC OAM functions, but as explained above, it<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 can be used=
 for some of the connectivity functions.&quot;</span></p></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; The text is an improvement, thank you. But it refer=
s to &quot;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">all required SFC OAM functions&=
quot; and I cannot find such list in the document. Can you propose another =
text?</span></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718=
920281WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Section 6.4.2, in my opi=
nion, may provide some context to how to interpret the use of &quot;availab=
ility&quot;. From &quot;BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform SF or SF=
C availability&quot; it appears that the availability is
 viewed as part of Fault Management OAM. (I&#39;m still awaiting a response=
 to my earlier questions specifically on the interpretation of &quot;availa=
bility&quot; in the OAM Framework for SFC.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks, =
this looks like a valid point. We can change the same as below:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&quot;BFD or S-BFD could=
 be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF or SFC.&quot;</span></p=
></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you, that works.=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><di=
v class=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718920281WordSectio=
n1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Further, in Section 6.4.=
2 the possible use is described as &quot;Upon receiving the control packet,=
 the last SFF in the SFC will reply back with relevant DIAG code.&quot; But=
 this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode
 operates, that is how only S-BFD works. The first sentence of the second p=
aragraph refers to both BFD and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph descri=
bes the operation of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asynchronous mode. I believe=
 that either the positioning statement
 must be modified or explanation of the operation of BFD in Asynchronous mo=
de over SFP provided.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; The inte=
ntion is not to explain how it works for each BFD mode. But to explain the =
common behavior. AFAIK/R, setting relevant DIAG code in the response packet=
 is common for both BFD and S-BFD. So we dont
 see any confusion here.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>GIM&gt;&gt=
; I am not saying that there&#39;s &quot;any confusion&quot;, I&#39;m point=
ing to clear technical mistake in the description of how BFD in Asynchronou=
s mode operates. You may split the description of the mechanism for BFD and=
 S-BFD or find another way to fix the erroneous text.=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"g=
mail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718920281WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Section 6.4.3 includes t=
he statement about the applicability of iOAM to availability: &quot;In-Situ=
 OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF availability and SFC availa=
bility or performance measurement.&quot; I interpret
 this conclusion as the indication that availability is considered as part =
of the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the case, I question the va=
lue of using one-way OAM for fault management because only the egress node =
may have the state and even that
 is not demonstrated in existing iOAM documents. In order to detect path fa=
ilure, a node must have information that can be used to detect the packet l=
oss. That can be either monotonically increasing sequence numbers or the no=
tion that packets must be arriving
 at pre-determined intervals. Which mechanism can be used by iOAM? Also, si=
nce iOAM, in regard to availability, appears as single-way FM OAM mechanism=
, that uses the actual data flow, what is its advantage comparing to, for e=
xample, collecting and comparing
 counters from ingress and egress? In other words, even if the egress can d=
etect the loss of its availability for the particular SFP, how such a notio=
n can be used?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Section =
6.4 is all about the applicability of different tools. It neither concludes=
 nor prefers one over the other. How the data is collected, interpreted, us=
ed for failure detection or signaled back
 to the Initiator are expected to be explained in the solution document tha=
t proposes iOAM as the tool for SFC OAM. As mentioned in the document scope=
, any solution specific info is outside the scope of this document and acco=
rdingly we dont see a reason to
 include those details in this document.</span></p></div></div></blockquote=
><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I cannot find in your response what is being detected by =
iOAM. How, from OAM PoV, is the reception of iOAM packet at the edge SFF is=
 different from receiving any data packet of the same flow? Without the cle=
arly stated distinction, without explaining the benefit of using iOAM for t=
his function the statement has no technical foundation and doesn&#39;t stan=
d.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_177436405771892=
0281WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">I, again, have to point =
out that Section 6.4.4 references the individual draft that had expired 3+ =
years ago. Usually, that is the indication that neither authors nor the com=
munity are interested in the idea.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; This was=
 already clarified by Carlos in different thread. The concept in the draft =
is already implemented and available in ODL.</span></p></div></div></blockq=
uote><div>GIM&gt;&gt; I cannot evaluate how the implementation is compared =
to the long-ago expired draft, so using that draft as the reference is not =
helpful to a reader. Can yu find another source?</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_5527=
738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718920281WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D"color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hope the above clarifies your queries. We are addres=
sing the agreed comments and editorial comments that you raised in the othe=
r thread. We will submit a new version with the fixes.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Nagendra<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From: =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">sfc &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; o=
n behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, July 22, 2019 at 10:44 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>James Guichard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.=
com" target=3D"_blank">james.n.guichard@futurewei.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf=
.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Jim, Joe, et al., <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d like to share my comments on Section of 6.4 =
of the draft. Much appreciate your consideration and response to my questio=
ns.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1 is &q=
uot;ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined in Section 4=
.1) to verify the availability of SF or SFC.&quot; When I looked through Se=
ction 4.1 I find some discussion of a Fault
 Management function but no clear definition of what is connectivity verifi=
cation in SFC. More so, it appears that connectivity verification is being =
mixed with re-ordering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data integrity monito=
ring, and some sort of policy verification.
 Real kitchen sink. At the same time, in other documents on network OAM, co=
nnectivity verification has been firmly defined as a function that verifies=
 that data have been received only form the expected source over the expect=
ed path. In conjunction with this,
 a misconnection error is defined to indicate that packets from another con=
nection have been received. In other words, the connectivity verification f=
unction verifies not only that packets from A reach node B but that they ar=
rive only on the red wire, not on
 blue or yellow. Said all that, the interpretation of connectivity function=
 in SFC may be different but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide a=
nything. Also, it is not clear how the last bullet &quot;Proactively test a=
lternate or protected paths to ensure
 reliability of network configurations&quot; is specific to and requires th=
e use of a connectivity function and why it cannot be addressed by, for exa=
mple, continuity check function.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SFC &quo=
t;can be used for basic OAM functions&quot;. But I cannot find anywhere in =
the document where the term, notion of &quot;basic OAM functions&quot; has =
been discussed or defined. Which functions considered
 as basic? ICMP can be used as the fault management tool, to some extent be=
cause it is relatively processing extensive, but its value in performance m=
onitoring is very low. Is PM OAM not part of the basic OAM functions?<u></u=
><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to interpret =
the use of &quot;availability&quot;. From &quot;BFD or S-BFD could be lever=
aged to perform SF or SFC availability&quot; it appears that the availabili=
ty is viewed as part of Fault Management OAM. (I&#39;m still
 awaiting a response to my earlier questions specifically on the interpreta=
tion of &quot;availability&quot; in the OAM Framework for SFC.<u></u><u></u=
></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as &quot;Upon recei=
ving the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back with relev=
ant DIAG code.&quot; But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode opera=
tes, that is how only S-BFD works. The first
 sentence of the second paragraph refers to both BFD and S-BFD. But the res=
t of the paragraph describes the operation of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asy=
nchronous mode. I believe that either the positioning statement must be mod=
ified or explanation of the operation
 of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provided.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal">
Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of iOAM to ava=
ilability: &quot;In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF ava=
ilability and SFC availability or performance measurement.&quot; I interpre=
t this conclusion as the indication that availability
 is considered as part of the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the =
case, I question the value of using one-way OAM for fault management becaus=
e only the egress node may have the state and even that is not demonstrated=
 in existing iOAM documents. In
 order to detect path failure, a node must have information that can be use=
d to detect the packet loss. That can be either monotonically increasing se=
quence numbers or the notion that packets must be arriving at pre-determine=
d intervals. Which mechanism can
 be used by iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regard to availability, appears as s=
ingle-way FM OAM mechanism, that uses the actual data flow, what is its adv=
antage comparing to, for example, collecting and comparing counters from in=
gress and egress? In other words,
 even if the egress can detect the loss of its availability for the particu=
lar SFP, how such a notion can be used?<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">
I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the individual dr=
aft that had expired 3+ years ago. Usually, that is the indication that nei=
ther authors nor the community are interested in the idea.<u></u><u></u></l=
i></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:37 AM James Guichard &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">james.n=
.guichard@futurewei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Dear WG:<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">This message starts a new two=
 week WG Last Call on advancing
<a href=3D"https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2=
F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework%2F&amp;data=
=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7Ce47e5eb13f224f18c46408d6e37=
8b2f7%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C636946504868870205&amp;s=
data=3DlkKvAgmKik7lkqGANQpnIvBRdbjKAqYtzTUdTfB9f3Y%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(5,99,193)">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
ietf-sfc-oam-framework/</span></a> for publication as an Informational RFC.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Substantive comments and stat=
ements of support for publishing this document should be directed to the ma=
iling list. Editorial suggestions can be sent to the authors.=C2=A0 This la=
st call will end on 11th June 2019.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Jim &amp; Joel<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_1774364057718920281gmail-m_61=
05226888694837520Signature">
<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:bl=
ack"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
sfc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000473300058fa676e5--


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From: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>
CC: "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 18:19:32 -0700
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To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
Cc: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>,  "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06
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Dear Jim and Joel,
the term "availability" is included to the title of two sections of this
document and is mentioned sixteen more times in the text. And that all
without any definition or a reference to a credible definition of the term.
Thus it is not clear whether availability is part of Fault Management or is
a performance metric that can be directly measured or calculated, Some
protocols and mechanisms mentioned in the draft are being credited for
supporting "availability checking" even though, as noted above, we don't
know what "availability" means in this document. The document suggests that
there is a multiplicity of availabilities and new mechanisms to check them
will be needed. That raises a fair question How would we know that a new
proposed OAM mechanism checks availability if there's no definition of one?
Doesn't that look as an example of the circular reasoning?
Also, what is the value of including SF into the scope of SFC OAM if the
document acknowledges that "fine-grained mechanisms are implementation and
deployment-specific"?
And lastly, Tables 3 and 4. Table 3 is filled with inaccuracies that I've
pointed out earlier. And Table 4 is just out of context, out of place and,
clearly, out of the scope of this document. Table 4 is about Operations and
Management, i.e., O&M, while the scope of the document on Operations,
Administration, and Maintenance (OAM).

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:43 AM James Guichard <
james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:

> Greg,
>
>
>
> At this late stage it is not helpful to go back and forth arguing over
> terminology or trying to add further wording for clarity or explanation o=
f
> terms; please list any *technical inaccuracies* that you feel the editors
> need to address so that we can move this document forward to publication.
> Given that there are no other objections from the working group, unless
> there are specific technical inaccuracies that the editors and/or other
> members of the WG agree should be corrected, the chairs will advance this
> document to the next stage of the standardization process by COB 8/16 (1
> week from today).
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Jim & Joel
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 08, 2019 11:06 PM
> *To:* Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <naikumar@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>;
> draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org; sfc@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06
>
>
>
> Dear Nagendra,
>
> please kindly review my questions below. Looking forward to hearing from
> you soon.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:12 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
> Hi Nagendra,
>
> much appreciate your responses. Please find my notes in-line tagged GIM>>=
.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:58 PM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <
> naikumar@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> Thank you for the comments. Please see our responses below.
>
>
>
> in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1 is
> "ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined in Section 4.=
1)
> to verify the availability of SF or SFC." When I looked through Section 4=
.1
> I find some discussion of a Fault Management function but no clear
> definition of what is connectivity verification in SFC.
>
>
>
> <Authors> Section 4.1 already list some of the OAM functions that can be
> performed as part of connectivity function.
>
> GIM>> My question was about the definition of the connectivity
> verification function used in the document. Also, do you believe that
> connectivity verification is a composite function that includes other OAM
> functions?
>
>
>
> More so, it appears that connectivity verification is being mixed with
> re-ordering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data integrity monitoring,
>
>
>
> <Authors> Please refer Section 2.2.7 of RFC7276 that explains MTU
> verification as part of Connectivity verification. Section 3.1.1 already
> explains the rationale behind including policy verification.
>
> GIM>> Thank you for the reference to RFC 7276 but it does not state that
> Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) is part of CV. I believe that PMTUD can as wel=
l
> be supported by the continuity check function and one of the examples is
> the method described in draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets
> <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool=
s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-bfd-large-packets-00&data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.=
n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C2fc5bd2c30f1445d6e2c08d71c7697b7%7C0fee8ff2a3b=
240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637009168007774071&sdata=3DLUPMnGqpMMSgNPW0=
FlbsP1qgabNzgXDir8w8kW9uzF8%3D&reserved=3D0>.
> So, I don't feel you've addressed my question.
>
>
>
> and some sort of policy verification. Real kitchen sink.
>
>
>
> <Authors> The intention is to capture/highlight various OAM functions
> based on the unique characteristics of SFC. Please read section 3.1.1 abo=
ut
> SF availability. It is already explained about what is (or why) policy
> verification for SF availability. Accordingly, we humbly deny on this
> comment.
>
> GIM>> " Accordingly, we humbly deny on this comment." Which leaves me
> with no other option but to state that you've failed to resolve my
> technical comment.
>
>
>
> At the same time, in other documents on network OAM, connectivity
> verification has been firmly defined as a function that verifies that dat=
a
> have been received only form the expected source over the expected path. =
In
> conjunction with this, a misconnection error is defined to indicate that
> packets from another connection have been received. In other words, the
> connectivity verification function verifies not only that packets from A
> reach node B but that they arrive only on the red wire, not on blue or
> yellow. Said all that, the interpretation of connectivity function in SFC
> may be different but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide anythin=
g.
>
>
>
> <Authors> We dont understand your concern here. SFC OAM components
> explains what is availability and PM for SF/SFC (Refer section 3.1.x and
> 3.2.x) and tied it up with the function in section 4. The relevant sectio=
ns
> also highlight the difference in SFC (For example, what is availability i=
n
> terms of SF).
>
> GIM>> "SFC OAM components explains what is availability ..."
>
> Can you provide the quote from this or other SFC OAM document that define=
s
> the SFC availability? I've been asking for one to no avail. Thank you in
> advance for clarifying this.
>
> GIM>> "The relevant sections also highlight the difference in SFC (For
> example, what is availability in terms of SF)."
>
> So, do you believe that SFC availability has some differences from SF
> availability? What are they? Is there a difference in measuring method or
> measurement units between the availability of an SFC and an SF? Please
> clarify.
>
>
>
> Also, it is not clear how the last bullet "Proactively test alternate or
> protected paths to ensure reliability of network configurations" is
> specific to and requires the use of a connectivity function and why it
> cannot be addressed by, for example, continuity check function.
>
>
>
> <Authors> Thanks for highlighting this. We will add the same point under
> Section 4.2. Hope that satisfies your concern.
>
> GIM>> Not really. Section 4.1 opens with "Connectivity is mainly an
> on-demand function ..." and closes with "Proactively test alternate or
> protected paths ..". That draws the question How on-demand function can b=
e
> used to proactively monitor a path? Perhaps you can add an example.
>
>
>
> Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SFC
> "can be used for basic OAM functions". But I cannot find anywhere in the
> document where the term, notion of "basic OAM functions" has been discuss=
ed
> or defined. Which functions considered as basic? ICMP can be used as the
> fault management tool, to some extent because it is relatively processing
> extensive, but its value in performance monitoring is very low. Is PM OAM
> not part of the basic OAM functions?
>
>
>
> <Authors> Thanks. To avoid any confusion, we modified it as below. Does
> the below modification help?
>
>
>
> "It could be observed that ICMP at its current stage may not be able
>
>    to perform all required SFC OAM functions, but as explained above, it
>
>    can be used for some of the connectivity functions."
>
> GIM>> The text is an improvement, thank you. But it refers to "all
> required SFC OAM functions" and I cannot find such list in the document.
> Can you propose another text?
>
>
>
>
>
> Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to interpre=
t
> the use of "availability". From "BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perfo=
rm
> SF or SFC availability" it appears that the availability is viewed as par=
t
> of Fault Management OAM. (I'm still awaiting a response to my earlier
> questions specifically on the interpretation of "availability" in the OAM
> Framework for SFC.
>
>
>
> <Authors> Thanks, this looks like a valid point. We can change the same a=
s
> below:
>
>
>
> "BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF or
> SFC."
>
> GIM>> Thank you, that works.
>
>
>
> Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as "Upon receivin=
g
> the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back with relevant
> DIAG code." But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode operates, th=
at
> is how only S-BFD works. The first sentence of the second paragraph refer=
s
> to both BFD and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph describes the
> operation of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asynchronous mode. I believe that
> either the positioning statement must be modified or explanation of the
> operation of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provided.
>
>
>
> <Authors> The intention is not to explain how it works for each BFD mode.
> But to explain the common behavior. AFAIK/R, setting relevant DIAG code i=
n
> the response packet is common for both BFD and S-BFD. So we dont see any
> confusion here.
>
> GIM>> I am not saying that there's "any confusion", I'm pointing to clear
> technical mistake in the description of how BFD in Asynchronous mode
> operates. You may split the description of the mechanism for BFD and S-BF=
D
> or find another way to fix the erroneous text.
>
>
>
>
>
> Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of iOAM to
> availability: "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF
> availability and SFC availability or performance measurement." I interpre=
t
> this conclusion as the indication that availability is considered as part
> of the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the case, I question the
> value of using one-way OAM for fault management because only the egress
> node may have the state and even that is not demonstrated in existing iOA=
M
> documents. In order to detect path failure, a node must have information
> that can be used to detect the packet loss. That can be either
> monotonically increasing sequence numbers or the notion that packets must
> be arriving at pre-determined intervals. Which mechanism can be used by
> iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regard to availability, appears as single-way =
FM
> OAM mechanism, that uses the actual data flow, what is its advantage
> comparing to, for example, collecting and comparing counters from ingress
> and egress? In other words, even if the egress can detect the loss of its
> availability for the particular SFP, how such a notion can be used?
>
>
>
> <Authors> Section 6.4 is all about the applicability of different tools.
> It neither concludes nor prefers one over the other. How the data is
> collected, interpreted, used for failure detection or signaled back to th=
e
> Initiator are expected to be explained in the solution document that
> proposes iOAM as the tool for SFC OAM. As mentioned in the document scope=
,
> any solution specific info is outside the scope of this document and
> accordingly we dont see a reason to include those details in this documen=
t.
>
> GIM>> I cannot find in your response what is being detected by iOAM. How,
> from OAM PoV, is the reception of iOAM packet at the edge SFF is differen=
t
> from receiving any data packet of the same flow? Without the clearly stat=
ed
> distinction, without explaining the benefit of using iOAM for this functi=
on
> the statement has no technical foundation and doesn't stand.
>
>
>
> I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the individual
> draft that had expired 3+ years ago. Usually, that is the indication that
> neither authors nor the community are interested in the idea.
>
>
>
> <Authors> This was already clarified by Carlos in different thread. The
> concept in the draft is already implemented and available in ODL.
>
> GIM>> I cannot evaluate how the implementation is compared to the long-ag=
o
> expired draft, so using that draft as the reference is not helpful to a
> reader. Can yu find another source?
>
>
>
> Hope the above clarifies your queries. We are addressing the agreed
> comments and editorial comments that you raised in the other thread. We
> will submit a new version with the fixes.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nagendra
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <
> gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, July 22, 2019 at 10:44 AM
> *To: *James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
> *Cc: *"sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06
>
>
>
> Dear Jim, Joe, et al.,
>
> I'd like to share my comments on Section of 6.4 of the draft. Much
> appreciate your consideration and response to my questions.
>
>    - in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section
>    4.1.1 is "ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined i=
n
>    Section 4.1) to verify the availability of SF or SFC." When I looked
>    through Section 4.1 I find some discussion of a Fault Management funct=
ion
>    but no clear definition of what is connectivity verification in SFC. M=
ore
>    so, it appears that connectivity verification is being mixed with
>    re-ordering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data integrity monitoring, =
and
>    some sort of policy verification. Real kitchen sink. At the same time,=
 in
>    other documents on network OAM, connectivity verification has been fir=
mly
>    defined as a function that verifies that data have been received only =
form
>    the expected source over the expected path. In conjunction with this, =
a
>    misconnection error is defined to indicate that packets from another
>    connection have been received. In other words, the connectivity
>    verification function verifies not only that packets from A reach node=
 B
>    but that they arrive only on the red wire, not on blue or yellow. Said=
 all
>    that, the interpretation of connectivity function in SFC may be differ=
ent
>    but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide anything. Also, it is=
 not
>    clear how the last bullet "Proactively test alternate or protected pat=
hs to
>    ensure reliability of network configurations" is specific to and requi=
res
>    the use of a connectivity function and why it cannot be addressed by, =
for
>    example, continuity check function.
>    - Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in
>    SFC "can be used for basic OAM functions". But I cannot find anywhere =
in
>    the document where the term, notion of "basic OAM functions" has been
>    discussed or defined. Which functions considered as basic? ICMP can be=
 used
>    as the fault management tool, to some extent because it is relatively
>    processing extensive, but its value in performance monitoring is very =
low.
>    Is PM OAM not part of the basic OAM functions?
>    - Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to
>    interpret the use of "availability". From "BFD or S-BFD could be lever=
aged
>    to perform SF or SFC availability" it appears that the availability is
>    viewed as part of Fault Management OAM. (I'm still awaiting a response=
 to
>    my earlier questions specifically on the interpretation of "availabili=
ty"
>    in the OAM Framework for SFC.
>    - Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as "Upon
>    receiving the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back =
with
>    relevant DIAG code." But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode
>    operates, that is how only S-BFD works. The first sentence of the seco=
nd
>    paragraph refers to both BFD and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph
>    describes the operation of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asynchronous mode=
. I
>    believe that either the positioning statement must be modified or
>    explanation of the operation of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP prov=
ided.
>    - Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of iOAM
>    to availability: "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform =
SF
>    availability and SFC availability or performance measurement." I inter=
pret
>    this conclusion as the indication that availability is considered as p=
art
>    of the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the case, I question t=
he
>    value of using one-way OAM for fault management because only the egres=
s
>    node may have the state and even that is not demonstrated in existing =
iOAM
>    documents. In order to detect path failure, a node must have informati=
on
>    that can be used to detect the packet loss. That can be either
>    monotonically increasing sequence numbers or the notion that packets m=
ust
>    be arriving at pre-determined intervals. Which mechanism can be used b=
y
>    iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regard to availability, appears as single-w=
ay FM
>    OAM mechanism, that uses the actual data flow, what is its advantage
>    comparing to, for example, collecting and comparing counters from ingr=
ess
>    and egress? In other words, even if the egress can detect the loss of =
its
>    availability for the particular SFP, how such a notion can be used?
>    - I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the
>    individual draft that had expired 3+ years ago. Usually, that is the
>    indication that neither authors nor the community are interested in th=
e
>    idea.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:37 AM James Guichard <
> james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:
>
> Dear WG:
>
>
>
> This message starts a new two week WG Last Call on advancing
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/
> <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdata=
tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cj=
ames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C2fc5bd2c30f1445d6e2c08d71c7697b7%7C0fee8f=
f2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637009168007774071&sdata=3DpghdQ4ndkVz=
I%2BdVTWzLD9UG3pmuk1%2FWcLPAA81fPXUE%3D&reserved=3D0>
> for publication as an Informational RFC.
>
>
>
> Substantive comments and statements of support for publishing this
> document should be directed to the mailing list. Editorial suggestions ca=
n
> be sent to the authors.  This last call will end on 11th June 2019.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Jim & Joel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> sfc mailing list
> sfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc
> <https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.=
ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsfc&data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40fut=
urewei.com%7C2fc5bd2c30f1445d6e2c08d71c7697b7%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d559=
1fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637009168007784062&sdata=3D7W4xw7WTvACMupTAj%2BtwdWupfCLmur=
c4FGQmQjgJPu4%3D&reserved=3D0>
>
>

--0000000000006dfbbd0590098d21
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Dear Jim and Joel,<div>the term &quot;availability&quot; i=
s included to the title of two sections of this document and is mentioned s=
ixteen more times in the text. And that all without any definition or a ref=
erence to a credible definition of the term. Thus it is not clear whether a=
vailability is part of Fault Management or is a performance metric that can=
 be directly measured or calculated, Some protocols and mechanisms mentione=
d in the draft are being credited for supporting &quot;availability checkin=
g&quot; even though, as noted above, we don&#39;t know what &quot;availabil=
ity&quot;=C2=A0means in this document. The document suggests that there is =
a multiplicity of availabilities and new mechanisms to check them will be n=
eeded. That raises a fair question How would we know that a new proposed OA=
M mechanism checks availability if there&#39;s no definition of one? Doesn&=
#39;t that look as an example of the circular reasoning?</div><div>Also, wh=
at is the value of including SF into the scope of SFC OAM if the document a=
cknowledges that &quot;fine-grained mechanisms are implementation and deplo=
yment-specific&quot;?</div><div>And lastly, Tables 3 and 4. Table 3 is fill=
ed with inaccuracies that I&#39;ve pointed out earlier. And Table 4 is just=
 out of context, out of place and, clearly, out of the scope of this docume=
nt. Table 4 is about Operations and Management, i.e., O&amp;M, while the sc=
ope of the document on Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM).</=
div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Greg</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 =
at 10:43 AM James Guichard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei=
.com">james.n.guichard@futurewei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_2740899290777602622WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">At this late stage it is not helpful to go back and =
forth arguing over terminology or trying to add further wording for clarity=
 or explanation of terms; please list any
<u>technical inaccuracies</u> that you feel the editors need to address so =
that we can move this document forward to publication. Given that there are=
 no other objections from the working group, unless there are specific tech=
nical inaccuracies that the editors
 and/or other members of the WG agree should be corrected, the chairs will =
advance this document to the next stage of the standardization process by C=
OB 8/16 (1 week from today).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jim &amp; Joel<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregi=
mirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 08, 2019 11:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:naikumar@=
cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">naikumar@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> James Guichard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.=
com" target=3D"_blank">james.n.guichard@futurewei.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"m=
ailto:draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-s=
fc-oam-framework@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06<u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Nagendra,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">please kindly review my questions below. Looking for=
ward to hearing from you soon.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:12 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gregimirsky@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Nagendra,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">much appreciate your responses. Please find my notes=
 in-line tagged GIM&gt;&gt;.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:58 PM Nagendra Kumar Naina=
r (naikumar) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:naikumar@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">na=
ikumar@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Hi Greg,</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Thank you for the commen=
ts. Please see our responses below.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">in regard to the applica=
bility of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1 is &quot;ICMP could be levera=
ged for connectivity function (defined in Section 4.1) to
 verify the availability of SF or SFC.&quot; When I looked through Section =
4.1 I find some discussion of a Fault Management function but no clear defi=
nition of what is connectivity verification in SFC.</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Section =
4.1 already list some of the OAM functions that can be performed as part of=
 connectivity function.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; My question was about the definition of =
the connectivity verification function used in the document. Also, do you b=
elieve that connectivity verification is a composite function that includes=
 other OAM functions?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">More so, it appears that=
 connectivity verification is being mixed with re-ordering detection, Path =
MTU Discovery, data integrity monitoring,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Please r=
efer Section 2.2.7 of RFC7276 that explains MTU verification as part of Con=
nectivity verification. Section 3.1.1 already explains the
 rationale behind including policy verification.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the reference to RFC 7276 =
but it does not state that Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) is part of CV. I beli=
eve that PMTUD can as well be supported by the continuity check function an=
d one of the examples is the method described
 in=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dh=
ttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-bfd-large-packets-00&amp;da=
ta=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C2fc5bd2c30f1445d6e2c08d71=
c7697b7%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637009168007774071&amp=
;sdata=3DLUPMnGqpMMSgNPW0FlbsP1qgabNzgXDir8w8kW9uzF8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" t=
arget=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets</a>.
 So, I don&#39;t feel you&#39;ve addressed my question.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">and some sort of policy =
verification. Real kitchen sink.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; The inte=
ntion is to capture/highlight various OAM functions based on the unique cha=
racteristics of SFC. Please read section 3.1.1 about SF availability.
 It is already explained about what is (or why) policy verification for SF =
availability. Accordingly, we humbly deny on this comment.</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; &quot;<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
Accordingly, we humbly deny on this comment.&quot; Which leaves me with no =
other option but to state that you&#39;ve failed to resolve my technical co=
mment.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">At the same time, in oth=
er documents on network OAM, connectivity verification has been firmly defi=
ned as a function that verifies that data have been
 received only form the expected source over the expected path. In conjunct=
ion with this, a misconnection error is defined to indicate that packets fr=
om another connection have been received. In other words, the connectivity =
verification function verifies not
 only that packets from A reach node B but that they arrive only on the red=
 wire, not on blue or yellow. Said all that, the interpretation of connecti=
vity function in SFC may be different but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does =
not provide anything.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; We dont =
understand your concern here. SFC OAM components explains what is availabil=
ity and PM for SF/SFC (Refer section 3.1.x and 3.2.x) and
 tied it up with the function in section 4. The relevant sections also high=
light the difference in SFC (For example, what is availability in terms of =
SF).=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; &quot;<span style=3D"color:black">SFC OA=
M components explains what is availability ...&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Can you provide the quot=
e from this or other SFC OAM document that defines the SFC availability? I&=
#39;ve been asking for one to no avail. Thank you in advance for clarifying=
 this.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">GIM&gt;&gt; &quot;The re=
levant sections also highlight the difference in SFC (For example, what is =
availability in terms of SF).&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">So, do you believe that =
SFC availability has some differences from SF availability? What are they? =
Is there a difference in measuring method or measurement units between the =
availability of an SFC and an SF? Please
 clarify.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Also, it is not clear ho=
w the last bullet &quot;Proactively test alternate or protected paths to en=
sure reliability of network configurations&quot; is specific to
 and requires the use of a connectivity function and why it cannot be addre=
ssed by, for example, continuity check function.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks f=
or highlighting this. We will add the same point under Section 4.2. Hope th=
at satisfies your concern.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; Not really. Section 4.1 opens with &quot=
;Connectivity is mainly an on-demand function ...&quot; and closes with &qu=
ot;Proactively test alternate or protected paths ..&quot;. That draws the q=
uestion How on-demand function can be used to proactively monitor
 a path? Perhaps you can add an example.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Also, the very last sent=
ence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SFC &quot;can be used for basic =
OAM functions&quot;. But I cannot find anywhere in the document
 where the term, notion of &quot;basic OAM functions&quot; has been discuss=
ed or defined. Which functions considered as basic? ICMP can be used as the=
 fault management tool, to some extent because it is relatively processing =
extensive, but its value in performance monitoring
 is very low. Is PM OAM not part of the basic OAM functions?</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks. =
To avoid any confusion, we modified it as below. Does the below modificatio=
n help?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&quot;It could be observ=
ed that ICMP at its current stage may not be able</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 to perform =
all required SFC OAM functions, but as explained above, it</span><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0 can be used=
 for some of the connectivity functions.&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; The text is an improvement, thank you. B=
ut it refers to &quot;<span style=3D"color:black">all required SFC OAM func=
tions&quot; and I cannot find such list in the document. Can you propose an=
other text?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Section 6.4.2, in my opi=
nion, may provide some context to how to interpret the use of &quot;availab=
ility&quot;. From &quot;BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform
 SF or SFC availability&quot; it appears that the availability is viewed as=
 part of Fault Management OAM. (I&#39;m still awaiting a response to my ear=
lier questions specifically on the interpretation of &quot;availability&quo=
t; in the OAM Framework for SFC.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks, =
this looks like a valid point. We can change the same as below:</span><u></=
u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&quot;BFD or S-BFD could=
 be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF or SFC.&quot;</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you, that works.=C2=A0<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Further, in Section 6.4.=
2 the possible use is described as &quot;Upon receiving the control packet,=
 the last SFF in the SFC will reply back with relevant DIAG
 code.&quot; But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode operates, tha=
t is how only S-BFD works. The first sentence of the second paragraph refer=
s to both BFD and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph describes the operat=
ion of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asynchronous
 mode. I believe that either the positioning statement must be modified or =
explanation of the operation of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provided.=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; The inte=
ntion is not to explain how it works for each BFD mode. But to explain the =
common behavior. AFAIK/R, setting relevant DIAG code in the
 response packet is common for both BFD and S-BFD. So we dont see any confu=
sion here.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; I am not saying that there&#39;s &quot;a=
ny confusion&quot;, I&#39;m pointing to clear technical mistake in the desc=
ription of how BFD in Asynchronous mode operates. You may split the descrip=
tion of the mechanism for BFD and S-BFD or find another way
 to fix the erroneous text.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Section 6.4.3 includes t=
he statement about the applicability of iOAM to availability: &quot;In-Situ=
 OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF availability
 and SFC availability or performance measurement.&quot; I interpret this co=
nclusion as the indication that availability is considered as part of the F=
ault Management OAM toolset. If that is the case, I question the value of u=
sing one-way OAM for fault management
 because only the egress node may have the state and even that is not demon=
strated in existing iOAM documents. In order to detect path failure, a node=
 must have information that can be used to detect the packet loss. That can=
 be either monotonically increasing
 sequence numbers or the notion that packets must be arriving at pre-determ=
ined intervals. Which mechanism can be used by iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in r=
egard to availability, appears as single-way FM OAM mechanism, that uses th=
e actual data flow, what is its
 advantage comparing to, for example, collecting and comparing counters fro=
m ingress and egress? In other words, even if the egress can detect the los=
s of its availability for the particular SFP, how such a notion can be used=
?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; Section =
6.4 is all about the applicability of different tools. It neither concludes=
 nor prefers one over the other. How the data is collected,
 interpreted, used for failure detection or signaled back to the Initiator =
are expected to be explained in the solution document that proposes iOAM as=
 the tool for SFC OAM. As mentioned in the document scope, any solution spe=
cific info is outside the scope
 of this document and accordingly we dont see a reason to include those det=
ails in this document.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; I cannot find in your response what is b=
eing detected by iOAM. How, from OAM PoV, is the reception of iOAM packet a=
t the edge SFF is different from receiving any data packet of the same flow=
? Without the clearly stated distinction,
 without explaining the benefit of using iOAM for this function the stateme=
nt has no technical foundation and doesn&#39;t stand.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">I, again, have to point =
out that Section 6.4.4 references the individual draft that had expired 3+ =
years ago. Usually, that is the indication that neither
 authors nor the community are interested in the idea.</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&lt;Authors&gt; This was=
 already clarified by Carlos in different thread. The concept in the draft =
is already implemented and available in ODL.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">GIM&gt;&gt; I cannot evaluate how the implementation=
 is compared to the long-ago expired draft, so using that draft as the refe=
rence is not helpful to a reader. Can yu find another source?<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hope the above clarifies your queries. We are addres=
sing the agreed comments and editorial comments that you raised in the othe=
r thread. We will submit a new version with the fixes.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Nagendra<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(181,196,223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">sfc &lt;</span><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">sfc-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:=
black">&gt; on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">gregimirsky@=
gmail.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Monday, July 22, 2019 at 10:44 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>James Guichard &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@fut=
urewei.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">james.n.guicha=
rd@futurewei.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">&gt;<=
br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><=
span style=3D"font-size:12pt">sfc@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12pt;color:black">&quot; &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">sfc@ietf.org</span></a><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear Jim, Joe, et al.,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d like to share my comments on Section of 6.4 =
of the draft. Much appreciate your consideration and response to my questio=
ns.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1 is &q=
uot;ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined in Section 4=
.1) to verify the availability of SF or SFC.&quot; When I looked through Se=
ction 4.1 I find some discussion of a Fault
 Management function but no clear definition of what is connectivity verifi=
cation in SFC. More so, it appears that connectivity verification is being =
mixed with re-ordering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data integrity monito=
ring, and some sort of policy verification.
 Real kitchen sink. At the same time, in other documents on network OAM, co=
nnectivity verification has been firmly defined as a function that verifies=
 that data have been received only form the expected source over the expect=
ed path. In conjunction with this,
 a misconnection error is defined to indicate that packets from another con=
nection have been received. In other words, the connectivity verification f=
unction verifies not only that packets from A reach node B but that they ar=
rive only on the red wire, not on
 blue or yellow. Said all that, the interpretation of connectivity function=
 in SFC may be different but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide a=
nything. Also, it is not clear how the last bullet &quot;Proactively test a=
lternate or protected paths to ensure
 reliability of network configurations&quot; is specific to and requires th=
e use of a connectivity function and why it cannot be addressed by, for exa=
mple, continuity check function.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SFC &quo=
t;can be used for basic OAM functions&quot;. But I cannot find anywhere in =
the document where the term, notion of &quot;basic OAM functions&quot; has =
been discussed or defined. Which functions considered
 as basic? ICMP can be used as the fault management tool, to some extent be=
cause it is relatively processing extensive, but its value in performance m=
onitoring is very low. Is PM OAM not part of the basic OAM functions?<u></u=
><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to interpret =
the use of &quot;availability&quot;. From &quot;BFD or S-BFD could be lever=
aged to perform SF or SFC availability&quot; it appears that the availabili=
ty is viewed as part of Fault Management OAM. (I&#39;m still
 awaiting a response to my earlier questions specifically on the interpreta=
tion of &quot;availability&quot; in the OAM Framework for SFC.<u></u><u></u=
></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as &quot;Upon recei=
ving the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back with relev=
ant DIAG code.&quot; But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode opera=
tes, that is how only S-BFD works. The first
 sentence of the second paragraph refers to both BFD and S-BFD. But the res=
t of the paragraph describes the operation of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asy=
nchronous mode. I believe that either the positioning statement must be mod=
ified or explanation of the operation
 of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provided.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal">
Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of iOAM to ava=
ilability: &quot;In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF ava=
ilability and SFC availability or performance measurement.&quot; I interpre=
t this conclusion as the indication that availability
 is considered as part of the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the =
case, I question the value of using one-way OAM for fault management becaus=
e only the egress node may have the state and even that is not demonstrated=
 in existing iOAM documents. In
 order to detect path failure, a node must have information that can be use=
d to detect the packet loss. That can be either monotonically increasing se=
quence numbers or the notion that packets must be arriving at pre-determine=
d intervals. Which mechanism can
 be used by iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regard to availability, appears as s=
ingle-way FM OAM mechanism, that uses the actual data flow, what is its adv=
antage comparing to, for example, collecting and comparing counters from in=
gress and egress? In other words,
 even if the egress can detect the loss of its availability for the particu=
lar SFP, how such a notion can be used?<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">
I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the individual dr=
aft that had expired 3+ years ago. Usually, that is the indication that nei=
ther authors nor the community are interested in the idea.<u></u><u></u></l=
i></ul>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greg<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:37 AM James Guichard &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank">james.n=
.guichard@futurewei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0i=
n 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Dear WG:</span><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">This message starts a new two=
 week WG Last Call on advancing
</span><a href=3D"https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhtt=
ps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework%2F&amp=
;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C2fc5bd2c30f1445d6e2c08=
d71c7697b7%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637009168007774071&=
amp;sdata=3DpghdQ4ndkVzI%2BdVTWzLD9UG3pmuk1%2FWcLPAA81fPXUE%3D&amp;reserved=
=3D0" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:rgb(5,99,193)">=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/</span></a><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">
 for publication as an Informational RFC. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Substantive comments and stat=
ements of support for publishing this document should be directed to the ma=
iling list. Editorial suggestions can be sent to the authors.=C2=A0 This la=
st call will end on 11th June 2019.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Thanks!</span><u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">Jim &amp; Joel</span><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_2740899290777602622gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_17=
74364057718920281gmail-m_6105226888694837520Signature">
<p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:bl=
ack">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:black">=C2=A0</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
sfc mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sfc@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2=
F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsfc&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.gu=
ichard%40futurewei.com%7C2fc5bd2c30f1445d6e2c08d71c7697b7%7C0fee8ff2a3b2401=
89c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637009168007784062&amp;sdata=3D7W4xw7WTvACMupTA=
j%2BtwdWupfCLmurc4FGQmQjgJPu4%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sfc</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000006dfbbd0590098d21--


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From: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
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From: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" <cpignata@cisco.com>
To: James N Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
CC: "Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar)" <naikumar@cisco.com>, "draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org>, "sfc@ietf.org" <sfc@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/eT-hKWG1Uj6B7Y4erOsbvtGRZ50>
Subject: Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06
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Thank you Jim for closing the loop and the WGLC, and providing an explanati=
on/description and perspective of the changes and choices made as part of t=
his WGLC.

Dear Greg,

Thank you for investing your time in providing a thorough set of reviews an=
d sharing open feedback and input on this document and associated WGLC.

I feel this document improved significantly from rev -06 until the current =
rev -10, all during the ~ 2.5 months of WGLC:
https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-10.txt&u=
rl1=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06.txt

As evidenced in those diffs, the overall framing of the document is more st=
ructured and better organized, assumptions and scope is clearer, a comprehe=
nsive set of acronyms and terminology protects the TLA-unprepared reader, t=
he security considerations section is much more robust, and a large number =
of editorials, typos, grammos, and nit fixes were made.

In regards to your comment about O&M, we followed the proposal made to the =
WG of that new section, which in turn sits on the foundations of RFC 5706 w=
hich describes the need for Manageability Considerations.

I also feel we expeditiously and comprehensively responded to all comments,=
 suggestions, and concerns, not only the 5 independent top-level threads yo=
u forked, but also all threads and follow-ups.
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/C0gWtHLW6K7eA97H97RWR8l7oxI

Thanks again for the reviews and comments!

Best,

Carlos Pignataro


On Aug 14, 2019, at 12:55 PM, James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.co=
m<mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>> wrote:

Hi Greg,

Looking at your concern about the word "availability" as it is used in the =
document, this seems to be as much a stylistic issue as a substantive one. =
 The word is used in a consistent fashion that seems likely to be clear to =
the reader.  There does not seem to be a need for the level of precision us=
ed for some other terms, due to the lack of ambiguity. Further, you ask abo=
ut the inclusion of the SF component in the document.  If there were no ref=
erences to the SF component, you could equally object to that.  The documen=
t seems to walk a good line, including enough information to show that it i=
s discussed, while also indicating that "fine-grained mechanisms are implem=
entation and deployment specific" thus indicating scope limits on what the =
document is addressing.

The authors appear to have made changes to table 3 as well as add new defin=
itions and a correction to the acronyms and terminology section based upon =
your feedback. This can clearly be seen in the diffs here ->https://tools.i=
etf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-10.txt<https://nam03.sa=
felinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Frfcdif=
f%3Furl2%3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-10.txt&data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.gui=
chard%40futurewei.com%7C0e3f8cb11eee45a4ee0408d720bf75d6%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018=
9c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637013879003945456&sdata=3DNY6rcVee64xPdujF%2BGu=
6%2B6Yh3BrhiXKm3l63ooI2PLY%3D&reserved=3D0>. In addition, while manageabili=
ty is not the focus in the scope of the document one would expect to see so=
me mention of this for completeness and indeed the authors have moved that =
discussion to its own section at the end of the document again in response =
to your previous feedback.

For the above reasons, and the fact that there are no further objections co=
ming from the WG, the chairs feel that consensus has been reached by the WG=
 to close this WGLC and move the document forward for publication.

Thanks!

Jim & Joel


From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 9:20 PM
To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com<mailto:james.n.guichard@=
futurewei.com>>
Cc: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <naikumar@cisco.com<mailto:naikumar@ci=
sco.com>>; draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-sfc-oam-=
framework@ietf.org>; sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06

Dear Jim and Joel,
the term "availability" is included to the title of two sections of this do=
cument and is mentioned sixteen more times in the text. And that all withou=
t any definition or a reference to a credible definition of the term. Thus =
it is not clear whether availability is part of Fault Management or is a pe=
rformance metric that can be directly measured or calculated, Some protocol=
s and mechanisms mentioned in the draft are being credited for supporting "=
availability checking" even though, as noted above, we don't know what "ava=
ilability" means in this document. The document suggests that there is a mu=
ltiplicity of availabilities and new mechanisms to check them will be neede=
d. That raises a fair question How would we know that a new proposed OAM me=
chanism checks availability if there's no definition of one? Doesn't that l=
ook as an example of the circular reasoning?
Also, what is the value of including SF into the scope of SFC OAM if the do=
cument acknowledges that "fine-grained mechanisms are implementation and de=
ployment-specific"?
And lastly, Tables 3 and 4. Table 3 is filled with inaccuracies that I've p=
ointed out earlier. And Table 4 is just out of context, out of place and, c=
learly, out of the scope of this document. Table 4 is about Operations and =
Management, i.e., O&M, while the scope of the document on Operations, Admin=
istration, and Maintenance (OAM).

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:43 AM James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.=
com<mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>> wrote:
Greg,

At this late stage it is not helpful to go back and forth arguing over term=
inology or trying to add further wording for clarity or explanation of term=
s; please list any technical inaccuracies that you feel the editors need to=
 address so that we can move this document forward to publication. Given th=
at there are no other objections from the working group, unless there are s=
pecific technical inaccuracies that the editors and/or other members of the=
 WG agree should be corrected, the chairs will advance this document to the=
 next stage of the standardization process by COB 8/16 (1 week from today).

Thanks!

Jim & Joel


From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2019 11:06 PM
To: Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <naikumar@cisco.com<mailto:naikumar@ci=
sco.com>>
Cc: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com<mailto:james.n.guichard@=
futurewei.com>>; draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-sf=
c-oam-framework@ietf.org>;sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06

Dear Nagendra,
please kindly review my questions below. Looking forward to hearing from yo=
u soon.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:12 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<mailto:g=
regimirsky@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Nagendra,
much appreciate your responses. Please find my notes in-line tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:58 PM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) <naikumar@=
cisco.com<mailto:naikumar@cisco.com>> wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thank you for the comments. Please see our responses below.

in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1 is "I=
CMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined in Section 4.1) t=
o verify the availability of SF or SFC." When I looked through Section 4.1 =
I find some discussion of a Fault Management function but no clear definiti=
on of what is connectivity verification in SFC.

<Authors> Section 4.1 already list some of the OAM functions that can be pe=
rformed as part of connectivity function.
GIM>> My question was about the definition of the connectivity verification=
 function used in the document. Also, do you believe that connectivity veri=
fication is a composite function that includes other OAM functions?

More so, it appears that connectivity verification is being mixed with re-o=
rdering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data integrity monitoring,

<Authors> Please refer Section 2.2.7 of RFC7276 that explains MTU verificat=
ion as part of Connectivity verification. Section 3.1.1 already explains th=
e rationale behind including policy verification.
GIM>> Thank you for the reference to RFC 7276 but it does not state that Pa=
th MTU Discovery (PMTUD) is part of CV. I believe that PMTUD can as well be=
 supported by the continuity check function and one of the examples is the =
method described in draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets<https://nam03.safelinks.pr=
otection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-iet=
f-bfd-large-packets-00&data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C=
5de87af84dda4ef20c4f08d720557f70%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0=
%7C637013423907001654&sdata=3DVma4Z7ZMYLja8YleUETHMWBFJ0JwnsTgkT51zwyuH5g%3=
D&reserved=3D0>. So, I don't feel you've addressed my question.

and some sort of policy verification. Real kitchen sink.

<Authors> The intention is to capture/highlight various OAM functions based=
 on the unique characteristics of SFC. Please read section 3.1.1 about SF a=
vailability. It is already explained about what is (or why) policy verifica=
tion for SF availability. Accordingly, we humbly deny on this comment.
GIM>> " Accordingly, we humbly deny on this comment." Which leaves me with =
no other option but to state that you've failed to resolve my technical com=
ment.

At the same time, in other documents on network OAM, connectivity verificat=
ion has been firmly defined as a function that verifies that data have been=
 received only form the expected source over the expected path. In conjunct=
ion with this, a misconnection error is defined to indicate that packets fr=
om another connection have been received. In other words, the connectivity =
verification function verifies not only that packets from A reach node B bu=
t that they arrive only on the red wire, not on blue or yellow. Said all th=
at, the interpretation of connectivity function in SFC may be different but=
, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide anything.

<Authors> We dont understand your concern here. SFC OAM components explains=
 what is availability and PM for SF/SFC (Refer section 3.1.x and 3.2.x) and=
 tied it up with the function in section 4. The relevant sections also high=
light the difference in SFC (For example, what is availability in terms of =
SF).
GIM>> "SFC OAM components explains what is availability ..."
Can you provide the quote from this or other SFC OAM document that defines =
the SFC availability? I've been asking for one to no avail. Thank you in ad=
vance for clarifying this.
GIM>> "The relevant sections also highlight the difference in SFC (For exam=
ple, what is availability in terms of SF)."
So, do you believe that SFC availability has some differences from SF avail=
ability? What are they? Is there a difference in measuring method or measur=
ement units between the availability of an SFC and an SF? Please clarify.

Also, it is not clear how the last bullet "Proactively test alternate or pr=
otected paths to ensure reliability of network configurations" is specific =
to and requires the use of a connectivity function and why it cannot be add=
ressed by, for example, continuity check function.

<Authors> Thanks for highlighting this. We will add the same point under Se=
ction 4.2. Hope that satisfies your concern.
GIM>> Not really. Section 4.1 opens with "Connectivity is mainly an on-dema=
nd function ..." and closes with "Proactively test alternate or protected p=
aths ..". That draws the question How on-demand function can be used to pro=
actively monitor a path? Perhaps you can add an example.

Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SFC "can=
 be used for basic OAM functions". But I cannot find anywhere in the docume=
nt where the term, notion of "basic OAM functions" has been discussed or de=
fined. Which functions considered as basic? ICMP can be used as the fault m=
anagement tool, to some extent because it is relatively processing extensiv=
e, but its value in performance monitoring is very low. Is PM OAM not part =
of the basic OAM functions?

<Authors> Thanks. To avoid any confusion, we modified it as below. Does the=
 below modification help?

"It could be observed that ICMP at its current stage may not be able
   to perform all required SFC OAM functions, but as explained above, it
   can be used for some of the connectivity functions."
GIM>> The text is an improvement, thank you. But it refers to "all required=
 SFC OAM functions" and I cannot find such list in the document. Can you pr=
opose another text?


Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to interpret =
the use of "availability". From "BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform=
 SF or SFC availability" it appears that the availability is viewed as part=
 of Fault Management OAM. (I'm still awaiting a response to my earlier ques=
tions specifically on the interpretation of "availability" in the OAM Frame=
work for SFC.

<Authors> Thanks, this looks like a valid point. We can change the same as =
below:

"BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform continuity function for SF or S=
FC."
GIM>> Thank you, that works.

Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as "Upon receiving =
the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back with relevant D=
IAG code." But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode operates, that =
is how only S-BFD works. The first sentence of the second paragraph refers =
to both BFD and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph describes the operatio=
n of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asynchronous mode. I believe that either the=
 positioning statement must be modified or explanation of the operation of =
BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provided.

<Authors> The intention is not to explain how it works for each BFD mode. B=
ut to explain the common behavior. AFAIK/R, setting relevant DIAG code in t=
he response packet is common for both BFD and S-BFD. So we dont see any con=
fusion here.
GIM>> I am not saying that there's "any confusion", I'm pointing to clear t=
echnical mistake in the description of how BFD in Asynchronous mode operate=
s. You may split the description of the mechanism for BFD and S-BFD or find=
 another way to fix the erroneous text.


Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of iOAM to ava=
ilability: "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF availabi=
lity and SFC availability or performance measurement." I interpret this con=
clusion as the indication that availability is considered as part of the Fa=
ult Management OAM toolset. If that is the case, I question the value of us=
ing one-way OAM for fault management because only the egress node may have =
the state and even that is not demonstrated in existing iOAM documents. In =
order to detect path failure, a node must have information that can be used=
 to detect the packet loss. That can be either monotonically increasing seq=
uence numbers or the notion that packets must be arriving at pre-determined=
 intervals. Which mechanism can be used by iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regar=
d to availability, appears as single-way FM OAM mechanism, that uses the ac=
tual data flow, what is its advantage comparing to, for example, collecting=
 and comparing counters from ingress and egress? In other words, even if th=
e egress can detect the loss of its availability for the particular SFP, ho=
w such a notion can be used?

<Authors> Section 6.4 is all about the applicability of different tools. It=
 neither concludes nor prefers one over the other. How the data is collecte=
d, interpreted, used for failure detection or signaled back to the Initiato=
r are expected to be explained in the solution document that proposes iOAM =
as the tool for SFC OAM. As mentioned in the document scope, any solution s=
pecific info is outside the scope of this document and accordingly we dont =
see a reason to include those details in this document.
GIM>> I cannot find in your response what is being detected by iOAM. How, f=
rom OAM PoV, is the reception of iOAM packet at the edge SFF is different f=
rom receiving any data packet of the same flow? Without the clearly stated =
distinction, without explaining the benefit of using iOAM for this function=
 the statement has no technical foundation and doesn't stand.

I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the individual dr=
aft that had expired 3+ years ago. Usually, that is the indication that nei=
ther authors nor the community are interested in the idea.

<Authors> This was already clarified by Carlos in different thread. The con=
cept in the draft is already implemented and available in ODL.
GIM>> I cannot evaluate how the implementation is compared to the long-ago =
expired draft, so using that draft as the reference is not helpful to a rea=
der. Can yu find another source?

Hope the above clarifies your queries. We are addressing the agreed comment=
s and editorial comments that you raised in the other thread. We will submi=
t a new version with the fixes.

Thanks,
Nagendra


From: sfc <sfc-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of =
Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com>>
Date: Monday, July 22, 2019 at 10:44 AM
To: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com<mailto:james.n.guichard@=
futurewei.com>>
Cc: "sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>" <sfc@ietf.org<mailto:sfc@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06

Dear Jim, Joe, et al.,
I'd like to share my comments on Section of 6.4 of the draft. Much apprecia=
te your consideration and response to my questions.

  *   in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1=
 is "ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined in Section =
4.1) to verify the availability of SF or SFC." When I looked through Sectio=
n 4.1 I find some discussion of a Fault Management function but no clear de=
finition of what is connectivity verification in SFC. More so, it appears t=
hat connectivity verification is being mixed with re-ordering detection, Pa=
th MTU Discovery, data integrity monitoring, and some sort of policy verifi=
cation. Real kitchen sink. At the same time, in other documents on network =
OAM, connectivity verification has been firmly defined as a function that v=
erifies that data have been received only form the expected source over the=
 expected path. In conjunction with this, a misconnection error is defined =
to indicate that packets from another connection have been received. In oth=
er words, the connectivity verification function verifies not only that pac=
kets from A reach node B but that they arrive only on the red wire, not on =
blue or yellow. Said all that, the interpretation of connectivity function =
in SFC may be different but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide an=
ything. Also, it is not clear how the last bullet "Proactively test alterna=
te or protected paths to ensure reliability of network configurations" is s=
pecific to and requires the use of a connectivity function and why it canno=
t be addressed by, for example, continuity check function.
  *   Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SF=
C "can be used for basic OAM functions". But I cannot find anywhere in the =
document where the term, notion of "basic OAM functions" has been discussed=
 or defined. Which functions considered as basic? ICMP can be used as the f=
ault management tool, to some extent because it is relatively processing ex=
tensive, but its value in performance monitoring is very low. Is PM OAM not=
 part of the basic OAM functions?
  *   Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to inte=
rpret the use of "availability". From "BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to p=
erform SF or SFC availability" it appears that the availability is viewed a=
s part of Fault Management OAM. (I'm still awaiting a response to my earlie=
r questions specifically on the interpretation of "availability" in the OAM=
 Framework for SFC.
  *   Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as "Upon rece=
iving the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back with rele=
vant DIAG code." But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode operates,=
 that is how only S-BFD works. The first sentence of the second paragraph r=
efers to both BFD and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph describes the op=
eration of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asynchronous mode. I believe that eith=
er the positioning statement must be modified or explanation of the operati=
on of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provided.
  *   Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of iOAM =
to availability: "In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF av=
ailability and SFC availability or performance measurement." I interpret th=
is conclusion as the indication that availability is considered as part of =
the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the case, I question the value=
 of using one-way OAM for fault management because only the egress node may=
 have the state and even that is not demonstrated in existing iOAM document=
s. In order to detect path failure, a node must have information that can b=
e used to detect the packet loss. That can be either monotonically increasi=
ng sequence numbers or the notion that packets must be arriving at pre-dete=
rmined intervals. Which mechanism can be used by iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in=
 regard to availability, appears as single-way FM OAM mechanism, that uses =
the actual data flow, what is its advantage comparing to, for example, coll=
ecting and comparing counters from ingress and egress? In other words, even=
 if the egress can detect the loss of its availability for the particular S=
FP, how such a notion can be used?
  *   I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the individ=
ual draft that had expired 3+ years ago. Usually, that is the indication th=
at neither authors nor the community are interested in the idea.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:37 AM James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei=
.com<mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>> wrote:

Dear WG:



This message starts a new two week WG Last Call on advancinghttps://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/<https://nam03.safelinks.pro=
tection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft=
-ietf-sfc-oam-framework%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.co=
m%7C5de87af84dda4ef20c4f08d720557f70%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1=
%7C0%7C637013423907011651&sdata=3DKM7IndIH7SqYK9mOzq%2FysZUQNIOOdH5KnEV3C3W=
6HbA%3D&reserved=3D0> for publication as an Informational RFC.



Substantive comments and statements of support for publishing this document=
 should be directed to the mailing list. Editorial suggestions can be sent =
to the authors.  This last call will end on 11th June 2019.



Thanks!



Jim & Joel





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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:=
 after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Thank you Jim for closing the loop and the WGLC, and provid=
ing an explanation/description and perspective of the changes and choices m=
ade as part of this WGLC.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
Dear Greg,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Thank you for investing your time in providing a thorough s=
et of reviews and sharing open feedback and input on this document and asso=
ciated WGLC.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I feel this document improved significantly from rev -06 un=
til the current rev -10, all during the ~ 2.5 months of WGLC:</div>
<div class=3D""><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf=
-sfc-oam-framework-10.txt&amp;url1=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06.txt" c=
lass=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framewor=
k-10.txt&amp;url1=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06.txt</a></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">As evidenced in those diffs, the overall framing of the doc=
ument is more structured and better organized, assumptions and scope is cle=
arer, a comprehensive set of acronyms and terminology protects the TLA-unpr=
epared reader, the security considerations
 section is much more robust, and a large number of editorials, typos, gram=
mos, and nit fixes were made.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>In regards to your comment about O&amp;M, we followed the proposal mad=
e to the WG of that new section, which in turn sits on the foundations of R=
FC 5706 which describes the need for Manageability Considerations.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>I also feel we expeditiously and comprehensively responded to all comm=
ents, suggestions, and concerns, not only the 5 independent top-level threa=
ds you forked, but also all threads and follow-ups.</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/C0gWtHLW6K7eA97H9=
7RWR8l7oxI" class=3D"">https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sfc/C0gWtHLW6K=
7eA97H97RWR8l7oxI</a></div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Thanks again for the reviews and comments!</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Carlos Pignataro</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Aug 14, 2019, at 12:55 PM, James Guichard &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" class=3D"">james.n.guichard@futurew=
ei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0=
, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-=
variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-ali=
gn: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; wor=
d-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Hi Greg,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Looking at your concern about the word &quot;availability&quot; as it is us=
ed in the document, this seems to be as much a stylistic issue as a substan=
tive one.&nbsp; The word is used in a consistent fashion that seems likely =
to be clear to the reader.&nbsp; There does not seem
 to be a need for the level of precision used for some other terms, due to =
the lack of ambiguity. Further, you ask about the inclusion of the SF compo=
nent in the document.&nbsp; If there were no references to the SF component=
, you could equally object to that.&nbsp;
 The document seems to walk a good line, including enough information to sh=
ow that it is discussed, while also indicating that &quot;fine-grained mech=
anisms are implementation and deployment specific&quot; thus indicating sco=
pe limits on what the document is addressing.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
The authors appear to have made changes to table 3 as well as add new defin=
itions and a correction to the acronyms and terminology section based upon =
your feedback. This can clearly be seen in the diffs here -&gt;<a href=3D"h=
ttps://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ie=
tf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-10.txt&amp;data=3D02=
%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C0e3f8cb11eee45a4ee0408d720bf75d6=
%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637013879003945456&amp;sdata=
=3DNY6rcVee64xPdujF%2BGu6%2B6Yh3BrhiXKm3l63ooI2PLY%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" sty=
le=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">https://tools.=
ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-10.txt</a>.
 In addition, while manageability is not the focus in the scope of the docu=
ment one would expect to see some mention of this for completeness and inde=
ed the authors have moved that discussion to its own section at the end of =
the document again in response to
 your previous feedback.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
For the above reasons, and the fact that there are no further objections co=
ming from the WG, the chairs feel that consensus has been reached by the WG=
 to close this WGLC and move the document forward for publication.<o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Thanks!<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Jim &amp; Joel<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">From:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>G=
reg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" style=3D"color: pur=
ple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>T=
uesday, August 13, 2019 9:20 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Jam=
es Guichard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" style=3D"=
color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">james.n.guichard@fut=
urewei.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Nag=
endra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:naikumar@cisco.com" sty=
le=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">naikumar@cisco=
.com</a>&gt;;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"=
mailto:draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-=
decoration: underline;" class=3D"">draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org</a=
>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sfc@=
ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">s=
fc@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06<o:p class=3D""></o=
:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Dear Jim and Joel,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
the term &quot;availability&quot; is included to the title of two sections =
of this document and is mentioned sixteen more times in the text. And that =
all without any definition or a reference to a credible definition of the t=
erm. Thus it is not clear whether availability
 is part of Fault Management or is a performance metric that can be directl=
y measured or calculated, Some protocols and mechanisms mentioned in the dr=
aft are being credited for supporting &quot;availability checking&quot; eve=
n though, as noted above, we don't know what
 &quot;availability&quot;&nbsp;means in this document. The document suggest=
s that there is a multiplicity of availabilities and new mechanisms to chec=
k them will be needed. That raises a fair question How would we know that a=
 new proposed OAM mechanism checks availability
 if there's no definition of one? Doesn't that look as an example of the ci=
rcular reasoning?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Also, what is the value of including SF into the scope of SFC OAM if the do=
cument acknowledges that &quot;fine-grained mechanisms are implementation a=
nd deployment-specific&quot;?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
And lastly, Tables 3 and 4. Table 3 is filled with inaccuracies that I've p=
ointed out earlier. And Table 4 is just out of context, out of place and, c=
learly, out of the scope of this document. Table 4 is about Operations and =
Management, i.e., O&amp;M, while the
 scope of the document on Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM)=
.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Greg<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:43 AM James Guichard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.=
n.guichard@futurewei.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underlin=
e;" class=3D"">james.n.guichard@futurewei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""=
></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Greg,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
At this late stage it is not helpful to go back and forth arguing over term=
inology or trying to add further wording for clarity or explanation of term=
s; please list any<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><u cla=
ss=3D"">technical inaccuracies</u><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span>that
 you feel the editors need to address so that we can move this document for=
ward to publication. Given that there are no other objections from the work=
ing group, unless there are specific technical inaccuracies that the editor=
s and/or other members of the WG
 agree should be corrected, the chairs will advance this document to the ne=
xt stage of the standardization process by COB 8/16 (1 week from today).<o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Thanks!<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Jim &amp; Joel<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">From:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>G=
reg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" s=
tyle=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">gregimirsky@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br cla=
ss=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>T=
hursday, August 08, 2019 11:06 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Nag=
endra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:naikumar@cisco.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=
=3D"">naikumar@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Jam=
es Guichard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" target=3D=
"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ja=
mes.n.guichard@futurewei.com</a>&gt;;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"=
">draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework@ietf.org</a>;<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" cla=
ss=3D"">sfc@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06<o:p class=3D""></o=
:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Dear Nagendra,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
please kindly review my questions below. Looking forward to hearing from yo=
u soon.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Greg<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 6:12 AM Greg Mirsky &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gregimirs=
ky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: un=
derline;" class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></=
o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Hi Nagendra,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
much appreciate your responses. Please find my notes in-line tagged GIM&gt;=
&gt;.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Greg<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 1:58 PM Nagendra Kumar Nainar (naikumar) &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:naikumar@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; t=
ext-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">naikumar@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">Hi Greg,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">Thank you for the comments. Please see our resp=
onses below.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">in regard to the applicability of ICMP the stat=
ement in Section 4.1.1 is &quot;ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity fu=
nction (defined in Section 4.1) to verify the availability of SF or SFC.&qu=
ot; When I looked through Section 4.1 I find some
 discussion of a Fault Management function but no clear definition of what =
is connectivity verification in SFC.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; Section 4.1 already list some o=
f the OAM functions that can be performed as part of connectivity function.=
</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; My question was about the definition of the connectivity verifi=
cation function used in the document. Also, do you believe that connectivit=
y verification is a composite function that includes other OAM functions?&n=
bsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">More so, it appears that connectivity verificat=
ion is being mixed with re-ordering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data int=
egrity monitoring,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; Please refer Section 2.2.7 of R=
FC7276 that explains MTU verification as part of Connectivity verification.=
 Section 3.1.1 already explains the rationale behind including policy verif=
ication.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you for the reference to RFC 7276 but it does not state t=
hat Path MTU Discovery (PMTUD) is part of CV. I believe that PMTUD can as w=
ell be supported by the continuity check function and one of the examples i=
s the method described in&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://nam03.safelinks.protectio=
n.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-bfd-l=
arge-packets-00&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guichard%40futurewei.com%7C5de=
87af84dda4ef20c4f08d720557f70%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C=
637013423907001654&amp;sdata=3DVma4Z7ZMYLja8YleUETHMWBFJ0JwnsTgkT51zwyuH5g%=
3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decorat=
ion: underline;" class=3D"">draft-ietf-bfd-large-packets</a>.
 So, I don't feel you've addressed my question.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">and some sort of policy verification. Real kitc=
hen sink.&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; The intention is to capture/hig=
hlight various OAM functions based on the unique characteristics of SFC. Pl=
ease read section 3.1.1 about SF availability. It is already explained abou=
t what is (or why) policy verification for
 SF availability. Accordingly, we humbly deny on this comment.</span><o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; &quot;<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;Accordingly, we humbly =
deny on this comment.&quot; Which leaves me with no other option but to sta=
te that you've failed to resolve my technical comment.</span><o:p class=3D"=
"></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">At the same time, in other documents on network=
 OAM, connectivity verification has been firmly defined as a function that =
verifies that data have been received only form the expected source over th=
e expected path. In conjunction with
 this, a misconnection error is defined to indicate that packets from anoth=
er connection have been received. In other words, the connectivity verifica=
tion function verifies not only that packets from A reach node B but that t=
hey arrive only on the red wire,
 not on blue or yellow. Said all that, the interpretation of connectivity f=
unction in SFC may be different but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not pr=
ovide anything.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; We dont understand your concern=
 here. SFC OAM components explains what is availability and PM for SF/SFC (=
Refer section 3.1.x and 3.2.x) and tied it up with the function in section =
4. The relevant sections also highlight the
 difference in SFC (For example, what is availability in terms of SF).&nbsp=
;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; &quot;<span style=3D"" class=3D"">SFC OAM components explains w=
hat is availability ...&quot;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">Can you provide the quote from this or other SF=
C OAM document that defines the SFC availability? I've been asking for one =
to no avail. Thank you in advance for clarifying this.</span><o:p class=3D"=
"></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">GIM&gt;&gt; &quot;The relevant sections also hi=
ghlight the difference in SFC (For example, what is availability in terms o=
f SF).&quot;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">So, do you believe that SFC availability has so=
me differences from SF availability? What are they? Is there a difference i=
n measuring method or measurement units between the availability of an SFC =
and an SF? Please clarify.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">Also, it is not clear how the last bullet &quot=
;Proactively test alternate or protected paths to ensure reliability of net=
work configurations&quot; is specific to and requires the use of a connecti=
vity function and why it cannot be addressed by,
 for example, continuity check function.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks for highlighting this. W=
e will add the same point under Section 4.2. Hope that satisfies your conce=
rn.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; Not really. Section 4.1 opens with &quot;Connectivity is mainly=
 an on-demand function ...&quot; and closes with &quot;Proactively test alt=
ernate or protected paths ..&quot;. That draws the question How on-demand f=
unction can be used to proactively monitor a path? Perhaps
 you can add an example.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 con=
cludes that ICMP in SFC &quot;can be used for basic OAM functions&quot;. Bu=
t I cannot find anywhere in the document where the term, notion of &quot;ba=
sic OAM functions&quot; has been discussed or defined. Which
 functions considered as basic? ICMP can be used as the fault management to=
ol, to some extent because it is relatively processing extensive, but its v=
alue in performance monitoring is very low. Is PM OAM not part of the basic=
 OAM functions?</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks. To avoid any confusion,=
 we modified it as below. Does the below modification help?</span><o:p clas=
s=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&quot;It could be observed that ICMP at its cur=
rent stage may not be able</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; to perform all required SFC OAM fu=
nctions, but as explained above, it</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; can be used for some of the connec=
tivity functions.&quot;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; The text is an improvement, thank you. But it refers to &quot;<=
span style=3D"" class=3D"">all required SFC OAM functions&quot; and I canno=
t find such list in the document. Can you propose another text?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some =
context to how to interpret the use of &quot;availability&quot;. From &quot=
;BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perform SF or SFC availability&quot; it=
 appears that the availability is viewed as part of Fault
 Management OAM. (I'm still awaiting a response to my earlier questions spe=
cifically on the interpretation of &quot;availability&quot; in the OAM Fram=
ework for SFC.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; Thanks, this looks like a valid=
 point. We can change the same as below:</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&quot;BFD or S-BFD could be leveraged to perfor=
m continuity function for SF or SFC.&quot;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></di=
v>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; Thank you, that works.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is d=
escribed as &quot;Upon receiving the control packet, the last SFF in the SF=
C will reply back with relevant DIAG code.&quot; But this is not how BFD in=
 the Asynchronous mode operates, that is how only
 S-BFD works. The first sentence of the second paragraph refers to both BFD=
 and S-BFD. But the rest of the paragraph describes the operation of S-BFD =
only, not of BFD in Asynchronous mode. I believe that either the positionin=
g statement must be modified or
 explanation of the operation of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provided=
.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; The intention is not to explain=
 how it works for each BFD mode. But to explain the common behavior. AFAIK/=
R, setting relevant DIAG code in the response packet is common for both BFD=
 and S-BFD. So we dont see any confusion here.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p>=
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; I am not saying that there's &quot;any confusion&quot;, I'm poi=
nting to clear technical mistake in the description of how BFD in Asynchron=
ous mode operates. You may split the description of the mechanism for BFD a=
nd S-BFD or find another way to fix the erroneous
 text.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the =
applicability of iOAM to availability: &quot;In-Situ OAM could be used with=
 O bit set to perform SF availability and SFC availability or performance m=
easurement.&quot; I interpret this conclusion
 as the indication that availability is considered as part of the Fault Man=
agement OAM toolset. If that is the case, I question the value of using one=
-way OAM for fault management because only the egress node may have the sta=
te and even that is not demonstrated
 in existing iOAM documents. In order to detect path failure, a node must h=
ave information that can be used to detect the packet loss. That can be eit=
her monotonically increasing sequence numbers or the notion that packets mu=
st be arriving at pre-determined
 intervals. Which mechanism can be used by iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regar=
d to availability, appears as single-way FM OAM mechanism, that uses the ac=
tual data flow, what is its advantage comparing to, for example, collecting=
 and comparing counters from ingress
 and egress? In other words, even if the egress can detect the loss of its =
availability for the particular SFP, how such a notion can be used?</span><=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; Section 6.4 is all about the ap=
plicability of different tools. It neither concludes nor prefers one over t=
he other. How the data is collected, interpreted, used for failure detectio=
n or signaled back to the Initiator are expected
 to be explained in the solution document that proposes iOAM as the tool fo=
r SFC OAM. As mentioned in the document scope, any solution specific info i=
s outside the scope of this document and accordingly we dont see a reason t=
o include those details in this
 document.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; I cannot find in your response what is being detected by iOAM. =
How, from OAM PoV, is the reception of iOAM packet at the edge SFF is diffe=
rent from receiving any data packet of the same flow? Without the clearly s=
tated distinction, without explaining
 the benefit of using iOAM for this function the statement has no technical=
 foundation and doesn't stand.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 =
references the individual draft that had expired 3&#43; years ago. Usually,=
 that is the indication that neither authors nor the community are interest=
ed in the idea.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"" class=3D"">&lt;Authors&gt; This was already clarified by C=
arlos in different thread. The concept in the draft is already implemented =
and available in ODL.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
GIM&gt;&gt; I cannot evaluate how the implementation is compared to the lon=
g-ago expired draft, so using that draft as the reference is not helpful to=
 a reader. Can yu find another source?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Hope the above clarifies your queries. We are addressing the agreed comment=
s and editorial comments that you raised in the other thread. We will submi=
t a new version with the fixes.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Nagendra<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span class=
=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"font-size=
: 12pt;" class=3D"">sfc &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sfc-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" clas=
s=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">sfc-bounces@ietf.org</sp=
an></a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&gt;
 on behalf of Greg Mirsky &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" c=
lass=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">gregimirsky@gmail.com=
</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Date:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>M=
onday, July 22, 2019 at 10:44 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Jam=
es Guichard &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:james.n.guichard@futurewei.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=
=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">james.n.guichard@futurewe=
i.com</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&gt;<br class=
=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>&qu=
ot;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">sfc@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" c=
lass=3D"">&quot;
 &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"colo=
r: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size=
: 12pt;" class=3D"">sfc@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"=
 class=3D"">&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></=
b>Re: [sfc] WG Last Call draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework-06</span><o:p class=
=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Dear Jim, Joe, et al.,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
I'd like to share my comments on Section of 6.4 of the draft. Much apprecia=
te your consideration and response to my questions.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></=
div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" class=3D"">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt;=
 font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
in regard to the applicability of ICMP the statement in Section 4.1.1 is &q=
uot;ICMP could be leveraged for connectivity function (defined in Section 4=
.1) to verify the availability of SF or SFC.&quot; When I looked through Se=
ction 4.1 I find some discussion of a Fault
 Management function but no clear definition of what is connectivity verifi=
cation in SFC. More so, it appears that connectivity verification is being =
mixed with re-ordering detection, Path MTU Discovery, data integrity monito=
ring, and some sort of policy verification.
 Real kitchen sink. At the same time, in other documents on network OAM, co=
nnectivity verification has been firmly defined as a function that verifies=
 that data have been received only form the expected source over the expect=
ed path. In conjunction with this,
 a misconnection error is defined to indicate that packets from another con=
nection have been received. In other words, the connectivity verification f=
unction verifies not only that packets from A reach node B but that they ar=
rive only on the red wire, not on
 blue or yellow. Said all that, the interpretation of connectivity function=
 in SFC may be different but, in my opinion, Section 4.1 does not provide a=
nything. Also, it is not clear how the last bullet &quot;Proactively test a=
lternate or protected paths to ensure
 reliability of network configurations&quot; is specific to and requires th=
e use of a connectivity function and why it cannot be addressed by, for exa=
mple, continuity check function.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;">
Also, the very last sentence of Section 4.1 concludes that ICMP in SFC &quo=
t;can be used for basic OAM functions&quot;. But I cannot find anywhere in =
the document where the term, notion of &quot;basic OAM functions&quot; has =
been discussed or defined. Which functions considered
 as basic? ICMP can be used as the fault management tool, to some extent be=
cause it is relatively processing extensive, but its value in performance m=
onitoring is very low. Is PM OAM not part of the basic OAM functions?<o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
Section 6.4.2, in my opinion, may provide some context to how to interpret =
the use of &quot;availability&quot;. From &quot;BFD or S-BFD could be lever=
aged to perform SF or SFC availability&quot; it appears that the availabili=
ty is viewed as part of Fault Management OAM. (I'm still
 awaiting a response to my earlier questions specifically on the interpreta=
tion of &quot;availability&quot; in the OAM Framework for SFC.<o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; fo=
nt-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
Further, in Section 6.4.2 the possible use is described as &quot;Upon recei=
ving the control packet, the last SFF in the SFC will reply back with relev=
ant DIAG code.&quot; But this is not how BFD in the Asynchronous mode opera=
tes, that is how only S-BFD works. The first
 sentence of the second paragraph refers to both BFD and S-BFD. But the res=
t of the paragraph describes the operation of S-BFD only, not of BFD in Asy=
nchronous mode. I believe that either the positioning statement must be mod=
ified or explanation of the operation
 of BFD in Asynchronous mode over SFP provided.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><=
li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
Section 6.4.3 includes the statement about the applicability of iOAM to ava=
ilability: &quot;In-Situ OAM could be used with O bit set to perform SF ava=
ilability and SFC availability or performance measurement.&quot; I interpre=
t this conclusion as the indication that availability
 is considered as part of the Fault Management OAM toolset. If that is the =
case, I question the value of using one-way OAM for fault management becaus=
e only the egress node may have the state and even that is not demonstrated=
 in existing iOAM documents. In
 order to detect path failure, a node must have information that can be use=
d to detect the packet loss. That can be either monotonically increasing se=
quence numbers or the notion that packets must be arriving at pre-determine=
d intervals. Which mechanism can
 be used by iOAM? Also, since iOAM, in regard to availability, appears as s=
ingle-way FM OAM mechanism, that uses the actual data flow, what is its adv=
antage comparing to, for example, collecting and comparing counters from in=
gress and egress? In other words,
 even if the egress can detect the loss of its availability for the particu=
lar SFP, how such a notion can be used?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-fam=
ily: Calibri, sans-serif;">
I, again, have to point out that Section 6.4.4 references the individual dr=
aft that had expired 3&#43; years ago. Usually, that is the indication that=
 neither authors nor the community are interested in the idea.<o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></li></ul>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
Greg<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 10:37 AM James Guichard &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james=
.n.guichard@futurewei.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-d=
ecoration: underline;" class=3D"">james.n.guichard@futurewei.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width:=
 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; marg=
in: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Dear WG:</span><o=
:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">This message star=
ts a new two week WG Last Call on advancing</span><a href=3D"https://nam03.=
safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%=
2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cjames.n.guicha=
rd%40futurewei.com%7C5de87af84dda4ef20c4f08d720557f70%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c7=
53a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637013423907011651&amp;sdata=3DKM7IndIH7SqYK9mOzq%2=
FysZUQNIOOdH5KnEV3C3W6HbA%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"c=
olor: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 12pt; color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-ietf-sfc-oam-framework/</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;" class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>for
 publication as an Informational RFC.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span></span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Substantive comme=
nts and statements of support for publishing this document should be direct=
ed to the mailing list. Editorial suggestions can be sent to the authors.&n=
bsp; This last call will end on 11th June 2019.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Thanks!</span><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Jim &amp; Joel</s=
pan><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></=
o:p></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></=
o:p></div>
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_2740899290777602622gmail-m_5527738542138074692gmail-m_17=
74364057718920281gmail-m_6105226888694837520Signature" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></=
o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
sfc mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:sfc@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; t=
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"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/sfc</a></div>
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