
From randy@psg.com  Fri Jul  1 18:50:22 2011
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
To: Hannes Gredler <hannes@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-rtr-13.txt / error handling; 
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hannes,

you raised two issues:

  o versioning, protocol upgrade, ...  i will open that can of worms up
    in another message

  o what do do when the router receives a duplicate ipvx prefix.  the
    relevant text from 5.5 says

	In the RPKI, nothing prevents a signing certificate from issuing two
	identical ROAs, and nothing prohibits the existence of two identical
	route: or route6: objects in the IRR.  In this case there would be no
	semantic difference between the objects, merely a process redundancy.

	In the RPKI, there is also an actual need for what might appear to a
	router as identical IPvX PDUs.  This can occur when an upstream
	certificate is being reissued or there is an address ownership
	transfer up the validation chain.  The ROA would be identical in the
	router sense, i.e. have the same {prefix, len, max-len, asn}, but a
	different validation path in the RPKI.  This is important to the
	RPKI, but not to the router.

	The cache server is responsible for assuring that it has told the
	router client to have one and only one IPvX PDU for a unique {prefix,
	len, max-len, asn} at any one point in time.  Should the router
	client receive an IPvX PDU with a {prefix, len, max-len, asn}
	identical to one it already has active, it SHOULD raise a Duplicate
	Announcement Received error.

i.e. in the rpki world, duplicates make sense and are allowed.  on the
router, they do not make sense.  hence the cache is formally responsible
for that boundary, and must not send dupes to the router.

this was meant to clearly state that, if the router receives a
duplicate, then either
  o the cache is broken because it must not send dupes, or
  o the router's data for that cache are incorrect, and it is not
    really a dupe.

in either case, something is very broken.  in this protocol, unlike bgp,
when things are very broken, drop the session.  unlime bgp, the router
has other sessions with similar data, other caches available to it, ...

perhaps the next version should be even more explicit

   The cache server MUST ensure that it has told the router client to
   have one and only one IPvX PDU for a unique {prefix, len, max-len,
   asn} at any one point in time.  Should the router client receive an
   IPvX PDU with a {prefix, len, max-len, asn} identical to one it
   already has active, it SHOULD raise a Duplicate Announcement Received
   error.

randy

From randy@psg.com  Fri Jul  1 19:08:21 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-rtr-13.txt / error handling; 
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on versioning, upgrading, new pdus, ... i fear that i have been very
sloppy.  for instance, the iana consideration section does not ask for a
registry for Protocol version.

on the naggumite far right we have the problem i stated earlier, the
goal in dropping the session if an unrecognized pdu type is received is

    it prevents chaotic pretend upgrading producing a bunch of incorrect
    garbage in the router's database which leads to incorrect validity
    decisions and thus incorrect routing.

    imagine that the unrecognized pdu was signaling "flush all data with
    origin AS 42," or "delete all roas for prefix P or longer."

on the be liberal in what you receive far left we have

    1. the router does not recognize the new PDU and returns an error.
    2. by including the unrecognized PDU in the error message the
       cache knows what particular PDU type has caused grief,
       such that it can log it and bring it to the operators attention.

    ---

    ok lets go through this:

    i was worried about e.g. a "central" deployment model where all your ASBRs
    have a session to a central cache. now consider you want to upgrade
    the cache with rob's latest sw (which introduces new PDUs).

    now all rpki-rtr sessions start to flap, unless you have upgraded
    routers to support the new PDUs. - you might argue that you should simply
    upgrade the routers first, thereby implying a certain upgrade order/procedure.
    that is going to be a problem:

    at some of my larger customers operational responsibilities (routers, servers)
    are strictly seperate and this hidden requirement to upgrade routers first,
    will likely be causing support-tickets at vendors of routing and local-cache
    software.

i suspect that the core of the disagreement may be a difference in
model.  

the bgp heads are used to a unique session whose data may be critical
and can not afford to be lost.

others of us are strongly attached to correctness and are less worried
about dropping sessions because they are not unique in the data sense.
the router is getting the same (well close to) data from other caches,
so the cost of dropping any one session is negligible.

i think that if we can resolve this difference i can then hack the docco
to match.

i suspect that a consequence of the right wing position may be that the
Protocol Version must change if PDU Types are added or changed.  this
may imply that, on session start, when the cache receives a PDU from the
router, it has to adjust to the router's version 'capability'.  hmmmm.

randy

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Tue Jul  5 06:59:06 2011
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Subject: [sidr] Nomcom 2011-2012: Third Call for Volunteers  (fwd)
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
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The NomCom chair has made a 3rd request for volunteers for the NomCom.

The NomCom is an important component of the IETF process.  Please do=20
consider volunteering for the NomCom.  The final deadline for volunteering=
=20
is approaching.  See the message below for details.

--Sandy

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2011 08:47:17 -0700
From: NomCom Chair <nomcom-chair@ietf.org>
To: IETF Announcement list <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Nomcom 2011-2012: Third Call for Volunteers

This is the Third call for Volunteers for the 2011-12 Nomcom.  We are
almost through the volunteer period so if you are considering
volunteering, please do so very soon.

We have had a very good response to the initial call for volunteers and
I am pleased to report that we have 84 volunteers thus far whose
qualifications have been confirmed by the secretariat. I have notified
each of these volunteers by email.

However, we would like to have many more volunteers. The more volunteers,
the better chance we have of choosing a random yet representative cross
section of the IETF population. You have until 11:59 pm EDT July 10, 2011
to volunteer for Nomcom but it would be much better if you can volunteer
as early as possible.

If you volunteered before 09:00 EDT on June 29 to serve as a voting member
and have not received a confirmation email from me, please re-submit and
bring to my attention right away!

Details about the process for volunteering for the Nomcom and the list
of open positions for which the nominating committee is responsible are
summarized in the initial announcement:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/ann/nomcom/2938/

The 84 volunteers who have thus far been qualified by the secretariat
are:

Alia Atlas,Juniper Networks
Lixia Zhang,UCLA
Wassim Haddad ,Ericsson
Glen Zorn,Network Zen
Richard Barnes,BBN Technologies
Stephen Kent,BBN Technologies
Scott Mansfield,Ericsson
Tina TSOU (Ting ZOU),FutureWei Technologies
Fernando Gont,UTN/FRH
Karen Seo,BBN Technologies
Jie Dong,Huawei Technologies
Mach Chen,Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd.
Sheng Jiang,Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd.
Dimitri Papadimitriou,Alcatel-Lucent
Thomas D. Nadeau,CA Technologies
David Meyer,Cisco Systems/University of Oregon
Wesley George,Time Warner Cable
Cullen Jennings,Cisco
Stephen Hanna,Juniper Networks
Stephan Wenger,Bidyo Inc.
Keyur Patel,Cisco Systems
Michael (Mike) Hamilton,BreakingPoint Systems
Behcet Sarikaya,Huawei USA
Mark Townsley,Cisco Systems
Fred Baker,Cisco Systems
Brian Trammell,ETH Z=FCrich
Sam Hartman,Painless Security
Chris Griffiths,Comcast
George Michaelson,APNIC
Jiankang Yao,CNNIC
Sohel Khan,Comcast
Dacheng Zhang,Huawei
Lianshu Zheng,Huawei Technologies
Hui Deng,China Mobile
Gang Chen,China Mobile
Mirja K=FChlewind,University of Stuttgart IKR
John E Drake,Juniper Networks
Matt Lepinski,BBN Technologies
Subir Das,Telcordia Technologies Inc
Yi Zhao,Huawei
John Scudder,Juniper Networks
Christer Holmberg,LM Ericsson
Teemu Savolainen,Nokia
Samita Chakrabarti,Ericsson
Jaap Akkerhuis,NLnet labs
Jason Weil,Time Warner Cable
Randy Bush,Internet Initiative Japan
Christian Schmidt,Nokia Siemens Networks
Sean Shen,CNNIC
Lou Berger,LabN Consulting L.L.C.
Donald Eastlake,Huawei
Xiaohu Xu,Huawei Technologies co. Ltd.
B=F6rje Ohlman,Ericsson
Deborah Brungard,AT&T
Magnus Westerlund,Ericsson
Zhen Cao,China Mobile
Hadriel Kaplan,Acme Packet
Lilla Dovner,Ericsson
John Jason Brzozowski,Comcast
Jonne Soininen,Renesas Mobile
Javier Ubillos,Swedish Institute of Computer Science
Eric Gray,Ericsson
Thomas Herbst,Silver Spring Networks
Ning Zong,Huawei Technologies
Haibin Song,Huawei Technologies
Yingjie Gu,Huawei Technologies
Hongyu Li,Huawei Technologies
Terry Manderson,ICANN
Ari Keranen,Ericsson
Jouni Korhonen,Nokia Siemens Networks
Bhumip Khasnabish,ZTE USA Inc.
Dapeng Liu,China Mobile
Fangwei Hu,ZTE Corporation
Ole Troan,Cisco
Pascal Thubert,Cisco
Wojciech Dec,Cisco
Gunter Van de Velde,Cisco
Ning So,Verizon Inc./University of Texas at Dallas
Guoman liu,ZTE
Simon Pietro Romano,Meetecho/University of Napoli
Luca Martini,Cisco
Bill VerSteeg,Cisco
Toerless Eckert,Cisco Systems
Joseph Salowey,Cisco Systems

The primary activity for this nomcom will begin during IETF-81 in
Quebec City and should be completed by January 2012. The nomcom will
be collecting requirements from the community, as well as talking to
candidates and to community members about candidates. There will be
regularly scheduled conference calls to ensure progress. Thus, being a
nomcom member does require some time commitment.

Please volunteer by sending an email to me before
11:59 pm EDT July 10, 2011 as follows:

To: suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com
Subject: Nomcom 2011-12 Volunteer

Please include the following information in the body of the mail:

Full Name:  // As you enter in the IETF Registration Form,
             // First/Given name followed by Last/Family Name

Current Primary Affiliation: // typically what goes in the Company
                              // field in the IETF Registration Form

Email Address(es): // all email addresses used to Register for the
                    // past 5 IETF meetings
 =09=09   // Please designate a Preferred email address for
                    // contact if there is more than one email address

Telephone number:  // With country code (for confirmation if selected)

Please expect an email response from me within 3 business days stating
whether or not you are qualified.  If you do not receive a response in
this timeframe, please re-send your email with the tag "RESEND:" added
to the subject line.

If you are not yet sure you would like to volunteer, please consider
that Nomcom members play a very important role in shaping the
leadership of the IETF.  Ensuring the leadership of the IETF is fair
and balanced and comprised of those who can lead the IETF in the right
direction is an important responsibility that rests on the IETF
participants at large. Volunteering for the Nomcom is a good way of
contributing in that direction.

I will be publishing a more detailed target timetable, as well as
details of the randomness seeds to be used for the RFC 3797 selection
process very soon.

Thank you in advance for your participation.

Suresh Krishnan
Nomcom Chair 2011-2012
Email: nomcom-chair@ietf.org, suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com
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IETF-Announce@ietf.org
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The list in section 1 does not appear to capture all the requirements as
they've been given in discussions on the list. Specifically, what is not
covered is:

1. Proving intent to advertise. Showing that the AS advertising a route
to a peering AS intended to avertise the reachability information
contained in the BGP update.

2. Proving the path of the update. It is not enough to merely show that
a path exists; any security system must also show the actual path
routing information has taken through the routing system.

3. Providing transitive trust. A network operator must not need to rely
on the filters or policies of neighboring autonomous systems to show the
path an update takes through the system, nor to prove the intent of
prior autonomous systems to advertise reachability through their networks=
=2E

These have all been clearly discussed on the list as motivations for the
scheme adopted.

There's a lot of 'we' in this doc, as well --I'm not certain that's good
form for a draft? Finally, there doesn't seem to be a lot of
justification around the length of the timer in an update (what's the
impact on performance system wide, in terms of stability and route
update intervals? Are these justifiable?), nor on why intervening AS'
should not be allowed to include expiration times (why is a change in
the AS path at an intervening AS treated differently than a change in
the AS path at the originating AS?).

Russ



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From jgs@bgp.nu  Tue Jul  5 14:43:41 2011
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To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-rtr-13.txt / error handling; 
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On Jul 1, 2011, at 10:08 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
> i suspect that a consequence of the right wing position may be that =
the
> Protocol Version must change if PDU Types are added or changed. =20

That's a viable option.  I'll leave it to others to comment whether it's =
palatable to them or not.

> this
> may imply that, on session start, when the cache receives a PDU from =
the
> router, it has to adjust to the router's version 'capability'.  hmmmm.

Yes, the lack of any establishment phase makes this part a little =
squicky.  One can either decide to tolerate the grossness, or add an =
explicit version PDU exchange or similar.  The latter seems nicer but =
might itself require a version bump to introduce?

--John=

From kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov  Tue Jul  5 19:30:10 2011
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From: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>
To: Russ White <russ@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2011 22:29:19 -0400
Thread-Topic: draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00
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Hi Russ,

Thanks for your comments/observations.
Please see my comments inline.

Sriram

>The list in section 1 does not appear to capture all the requirements as
>they've been given in discussions on the list.=20

This is a design rationale document.
It merely describes some of the details behind the design decisions.
As you know, requirements are documented in draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-reqs.=20

>Specifically, what is not covered is:
>1. Proving intent to advertise. Showing that the AS advertising a route
>to a peering AS intended to avertise the reachability information
>contained in the BGP update.
>
>2. Proving the path of the update. It is not enough to merely show that
>a path exists; any security system must also show the actual path
>routing information has taken through the routing system.
>
>3. Providing transitive trust. A network operator must not need to rely
>on the filters or policies of neighboring autonomous systems to show the
>path an update takes through the system, nor to prove the intent of
>prior autonomous systems to advertise reachability through their networks.
>
>These have all been clearly discussed on the list as motivations for the
>scheme adopted.

These are requirements related questions which pertain to
draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-reqs. I think Randy may like to respond to these.

>There's a lot of 'we' in this doc, as well --I'm not certain that's good
>form for a draft?=20

I could use the passive form like =93It was decided that =85=94 etc.=20
everywhere in the doc. I=92m not sure that is necessarily better.
But I will take your suggestion into consideration.

>Finally, there doesn't seem to be a lot of
>justification around the length of the timer in an update (what's the
>impact on performance system wide, in terms of stability and route
>update intervals? Are these justifiable?),=20

This is an ongoing discussion.=20
But please see Section 3.2.2 (2nd, 3rd, 4th paragraphs).=20
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00#page-10 =20
Also see Section 3.4.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00#section-3.=
4=20
Sharon Goldberg and I have begun doing detailed modeling
of the BGPSEC route-processor workload to quantify the performance metrics
you have mentioned. We hope to report results in the near future.  =20

>nor on why intervening AS'
>should not be allowed to include expiration times

It is simply not needed to reduce the replay attack window.
It is sufficient that the origin AS inserts the Expire Time,
and all other ASes in the AS path sign that info as they forward the route.
Please see Section 3.2.2, 1st paragraph.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00#page-10
=20
> (why is a change in
>the AS path at an intervening AS treated differently than a change in
>the AS path at the originating AS?).

In what way do you think they are treated differently?  If the origin AS
announces to a different neighbor, that is just the same as if an AS three
hops down makes a different choice.
Again the discussion in Section 3.2.2 (1st para) can be helpful here.

Sriram



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>> The list in section 1 does not appear to capture all the requirements as
>> they've been given in discussions on the list. 
> 
> This is a design rationale document.
> It merely describes some of the details behind the design decisions.
> As you know, requirements are documented in draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-reqs. 

I would expect it, however, to detail the primary reasons for making
such decisions. The ones I've outlined are, based on the list
discussions, the primary reasons.

>> nor on why intervening AS'
>> should not be allowed to include expiration times
> 
> It is simply not needed to reduce the replay attack window.

I don't see how this is true. For instance:

   +--3--+
1--2     5
   +--4--+

Where 1 is originating a route towards 2, and 2 towards 3 and 4. If the
link between 2 and 3 fails, or 2 changes its policy, it must wait the
duration of 1's timer before being assured 3 cannot continue to
advertise the route. From 2's perspective, it has no ability to control
the speed at which it can effectively implement policy or prevent replay
attacks.

This is unacceptable. The timer must be per hop.

Russ

From randy@psg.com  Wed Jul  6 04:22:42 2011
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
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>    +--3--+
> 1--2     5
>    +--4--+
> 
> Where 1 is originating a route towards 2, and 2 towards 3 and 4. If the
> link between 2 and 3 fails, or 2 changes its policy, it must wait the
> duration of 1's timer before being assured 3 cannot continue to
> advertise the route.

that is why beaconing is said to provide only a certain measurable and
controllable freshness guarantee.  no surprise there.

> From 2's perspective, it has no ability to control the speed at which
> it can effectively implement policy or prevent replay attacks.
> 
> This is unacceptable. The timer must be per hop.

would you explain why this would reduce the window?

e.g., if 2 signs with a time and 3 signs with a time, 3 can still replay
within 2's window, which one presumes is about as wide as 1's window.
no gain, non-trivial pain.

randy

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Cc: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>, "sidr@ietf.org" <sidr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00
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> e.g., if 2 signs with a time and 3 signs with a time, 3 can still replay
> within 2's window, which one presumes is about as wide as 1's window.
> no gain, non-trivial pain.

Because 2 would know its local conditions, and may set the timer
shorter. 1 cannot know 2's local conditions or policies, and yet you are
allowing 1 to control the length of time the connection is acceptable
between 2 and 3.

There is real gain in allowing a per hop timer. It would accurately
reflect the state of the network.

Russ


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>> e.g., if 2 signs with a time and 3 signs with a time, 3 can still replay
>> within 2's window, which one presumes is about as wide as 1's window.
>> no gain, non-trivial pain.
> Because 2 would know its local conditions, and may set the timer
> shorter.

except 2 had already disconnected from 3.  way too much noise for too
little gain.

randy

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Cc: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>, "sidr@ietf.org" <sidr@ietf.org>
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On 7/6/2011 7:29 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
>>> e.g., if 2 signs with a time and 3 signs with a time, 3 can still replay
>>> within 2's window, which one presumes is about as wide as 1's window.
>>> no gain, non-trivial pain.
>> Because 2 would know its local conditions, and may set the timer
>> shorter.
> 
> except 2 had already disconnected from 3.  way too much noise for too
> little gain.

No --if 2 knows the situation with 3 is problematic, it can reduce the
timer on that path.

What you're saying is that the originator should control the rate at
which connectivity and policy should be allowed to change farther down
the graph, because, well, it's too much trouble to do otherwise. What
I'm saying is this is an unacceptable tradeoff --if the point is to
provide security, then provide security at every hop.

Russ


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Wed Jul  6 05:27:08 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests-15.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : Manifests for the Resource Public Key Infrastructure
	Author(s)       : Rob Austein
                          Geoff Huston
                          Stephen Kent
                          Matt Lepinski
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests-15.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2011-07-06

   This document defines a &quot;manifest&quot; for use in the Resource Pub=
lic Key
   Infrastructure (RPKI).  A manifest is a signed object (file) that
   contains a listing of all the signed objects (files) in the
   repository publication point (directory) associated with an authority
   responsible for publishing in the repository.  For each certificate,
   Certificate Revocation List (CRL), or other type of signed objects
   issued by the authority, that are published at this repository
   publication point, the manifest contains both the name of the file
   containing the object, and a hash of the file content.  Manifests are
   intended to enable a relying party (RP) to detect certain forms of
   attacks against a repository.  Specifically, if an RP checks a
   manifest&#39;s contents against the signed objects retrieved from a
   repository publication point, then the RP can detect &quot;stale&quot; (=
valid)
   data and deletion of signed objects.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests-15.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests-15.txt

From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Wed Jul  6 10:24:00 2011
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Cc: "'Sriram, Kotikalapudi'" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>, 'Russ White' <russ@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00
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Russ White wrote (on Wed 06-Jul-2011 at 12:11 +0100):
....
> I don't see how this is true. For instance:
> 
>    +--3--+
> 1--2     5
>    +--4--+
> 
> Where 1 is originating a route towards 2, and 2 towards 3 and 4. If
> the link between 2 and 3 fails, or 2 changes its policy, it must
> wait the duration of 1's timer before being assured 3 cannot
> continue to advertise the route. From 2's perspective, it has no
> ability to control the speed at which it can effectively implement
> policy or prevent replay attacks.
> 
> This is unacceptable. The timer must be per hop.

How short would the timers have to be to cope with link failures ?

In any case, it seems to me that problems only arise if 3 turns out to
be a Bad Person.  In which case, no matter what any validity timers
say, the objective should be to allow routes to be rapidly withdrawn ?
Each AS announcing routes to 3 gets to make up their own minds about
3's bona fides which will have its own latency, but having made a
decision, having to wait for some timer to expire before being able to
act will seem like a failure ?

If 2 changes which IPs it has allocated to customers, then the RPKI
implements that by creating new and revoking old EE(s).

If 2 changes which ASes it announces routes to, presumably it revokes
the EE(s) associated with the path signatures it now repudiates.  And
the back-channel through the RPKI will update all interested routers,
and any stale routes will be swept away ?  Of course, 2 must first
re-announce everything that currently uses the to-be-updated-keys to
every other peer, and wait for those announcements to be propagated.
Can this be right ?

Mind you, what if:

   +--3--+
1--2  |  5
   +--4--+

In which case, if 4 does not agree with 2's assessment of 3's
character, then 2 is estuffe if 4 announces its routes to 3, and 5
thinks that 3's price for transit is just wonderful, and 3 is a
customer of 4 (which might affect its judgement, of course).

On the other hand, if all parties suddenly realise that 3 is Wicked,
then there will be a sudden rush of new EEs and every route including
3 will be withdrawn, *and* every related route *not* including 3 will
have to be re-announced and have propagated across the BGP mesh,
*before* EEs are updated ?

Or, of course, everybody could do it the old fashioned way, and filter
out routes with AS 3 in the path :-)

Chris


From russ@cisco.com  Wed Jul  6 10:38:52 2011
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Cc: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>, sidr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00
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>> I don't see how this is true. For instance:
>>
>>    +--3--+
>> 1--2     5
>>    +--4--+
>>
>> Where 1 is originating a route towards 2, and 2 towards 3 and 4. If
>> the link between 2 and 3 fails, or 2 changes its policy, it must
>> wait the duration of 1's timer before being assured 3 cannot
>> continue to advertise the route. From 2's perspective, it has no
>> ability to control the speed at which it can effectively implement
>> policy or prevent replay attacks.
>>
>> This is unacceptable. The timer must be per hop.
> 
> How short would the timers have to be to cope with link failures ?

My argument isn't over the length of the timer, just that the timer
needs to exist per hop, not just for the originator.

> If 2 changes which IPs it has allocated to customers, then the RPKI
> implements that by creating new and revoking old EE(s).

So you would argue that each time you change connections, you should
issue a new EE? Then why have the timer at all?

> Or, of course, everybody could do it the old fashioned way, and filter
> out routes with AS 3 in the path :-)

Then what's the point of the signatures in the first place?

Russ


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>> i suspect that a consequence of the right wing position may be that =
the
>> Protocol Version must change if PDU Types are added or changed. =20
>=20
> That's a viable option.  I'll leave it to others to comment whether =
it's palatable to them or not.

It seems to be an overkill though! It depends on what PDU is being =
introduced (yes, that means a notion of mandatory and optional PDUs =
;-)). PDU change, definitely!

>=20
>> this
>> may imply that, on session start, when the cache receives a PDU from =
the
>> router, it has to adjust to the router's version 'capability'.  =
hmmmm.
>=20
> Yes, the lack of any establishment phase makes this part a little =
squicky.  One can either decide to tolerate the grossness, or add an =
explicit version PDU exchange or similar.  The latter seems nicer but =
might itself require a version bump to introduce?

Putting the version# in to the reserved part of the reset query PDU =
seems like a good start.=

From randy@psg.com  Wed Jul  6 14:28:30 2011
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> Putting the version# in to the reserved part of the reset query PDU
> seems like a good start.

it is already in the version number field.

randy

From pmohapat@cisco.com  Wed Jul  6 14:59:20 2011
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> it is already in the version number field.


Oops! sorry ;-( I meant to say that should suffice (as a version =
exchange mechanism) since the router always sends a reset query after =
session establishment.=

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>> it is already in the version number field.
> Oops! sorry ;-( I meant to say that should suffice (as a version
> exchange mechanism) since the router always sends a reset query after
> session establishment.

that part is easy:
  o router sends version
  o if server can sing that version, all goes ahead
  o if not, server sends error and disconnects
  o router tries another server

but you bring up allowing the router to ignore unknown pdu types if the
version matches.  i.e. there can be new pdu types which do not have
important semantics.  just so i can wrap my head, which is on first
cuppa, around this, could you give me an example?  my first reaction is,
if it has no important semantics, then why add it? :)

if a sender MUST only send unimportant unknown pdus, to enforce this,
how does the recipient know if the unknown pdu type it just received is
important or not?  i guess the sender can paint them grey. :)

but moving past this cloudy space, ...

how do we tell the iana that it can only add to the pdu type registry if
the version is bumped?  or is it a registry of 

  version  pdu-type
     0        0
     0	      1
     ...
     1       13
     1	     14
     ...

randy

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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-rtr-13.txt / error handling; 
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> but you bring up allowing the router to ignore unknown pdu types if =
the
> version matches.  i.e. there can be new pdu types which do not have
> important semantics.  just so i can wrap my head, which is on first
> cuppa, around this, could you give me an example?  my first reaction =
is,
> if it has no important semantics, then why add it? :)

E.g.

If and when (;-)) we add origin validation for VPN routes and we do it =
by adding
a VPN prefix PDU.

> if a sender MUST only send unimportant unknown pdus, to enforce this,
> how does the recipient know if the unknown pdu type it just received =
is
> important or not?  i guess the sender can paint them grey. :)

By definition, if it's the same version#, all unknown PDUs are =
unimportant...
Otherwise, they are important ;-)

> but moving past this cloudy space, ...
>=20
> how do we tell the iana that it can only add to the pdu type registry =
if
> the version is bumped?  or is it a registry of=20
>=20
>  version  pdu-type
>     0        0
>     0	      1
>     ...
>     1       13
>     1	     14
>     ...

This should work if it can be done!=

From kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov  Thu Jul  7 10:18:33 2011
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From: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>
To: Russ White <russ@cisco.com>, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2011 13:18:29 -0400
Thread-Topic: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00
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> >>> e.g., if 2 signs with a time and 3 signs with a time, 3 can still replay
> >>> within 2's window, which one presumes is about as wide as 1's window.
> >>> no gain, non-trivial pain.
> >> Because 2 would know its local conditions, and may set the timer
> >> shorter.
> >
> > except 2 had already disconnected from 3.  way too much noise for too
> > little gain.
> 
> No --if 2 knows the situation with 3 is problematic, it can reduce the
> timer on that path.

The problem I see with this is as follows. If 2 knows the situation with 3 is 
problematic, then why would it still send updates to 3? Why would it not 
disconnect with 3 rather than reduce the timer? Also, it does not make 
sense for 2 to set a lower timer value (than that of 1) prior to any hunch 
or knowledge that 3 is bad. Presumably, 2 had already sent some updates 
to 3 prior to knowing that 3 has gone bad (or is suspicious). There is 
nothing 2 can do about those previous updates even if it has the ability 
to adjust its own timer value on subsequent updates. Once that hunch sets in, 
then why not just disconnect with 3? AS-1 anyway was prepared to live 
with replay possibility for the period of its timer when it sent an update 
in the first place. So why should 2 try to be extra helpful with manipulation 
of timers when it really can't. I think all 2 should do to help is to 
forward updates only to 4 (and disconnect from 3) from the moment 
it knows 3 has gone bad or suspicious. We can presume that 1 chose 
its timer value with some prudence, and knows to accept the consequences of it. 

Sriram    
  
> 
> What you're saying is that the originator should control the rate at
> which connectivity and policy should be allowed to change farther down
> the graph, because, well, it's too much trouble to do otherwise. What
> I'm saying is this is an unacceptable tradeoff --if the point is to
> provide security, then provide security at every hop.
> 
> Russ


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Thu Jul  7 12:48:56 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests-16.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : Manifests for the Resource Public Key Infrastructure
	Author(s)       : Rob Austein
                          Geoff Huston
                          Stephen Kent
                          Matt Lepinski
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests-16.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2011-07-07

   This document defines a &quot;manifest&quot; for use in the Resource Pub=
lic Key
   Infrastructure (RPKI).  A manifest is a signed object (file) that
   contains a listing of all the signed objects (files) in the
   repository publication point (directory) associated with an authority
   responsible for publishing in the repository.  For each certificate,
   Certificate Revocation List (CRL), or other type of signed objects
   issued by the authority, that are published at this repository
   publication point, the manifest contains both the name of the file
   containing the object, and a hash of the file content.  Manifests are
   intended to enable a relying party (RP) to detect certain forms of
   attacks against a repository.  Specifically, if an RP checks a
   manifest&#39;s contents against the signed objects retrieved from a
   repository publication point, then the RP can detect &quot;stale&quot; (=
valid)
   data and deletion of signed objects.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests-16.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests-16.txt

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> The problem I see with this is as follows. If 2 knows the situation wit=
h 3 is=20
> problematic, then why would it still send updates to 3? Why would it no=
t=20
> disconnect with 3 rather than reduce the timer?=20

How does 2 prevent 3 from replaying the update? It doesn't matter when 2
disconnects from 3, it cannot prevent 3 from replaying it's
advertisement until the timer, which is set by 1, times out.

Bottom line question: Why should AS 1 control the length of time AS2 is
vulnerable to replay attacks by AS' further downstream? It seems like a
simple question to me. _Every_ AS along the path has an interest in
making certain it's peers can't replay updates they have sent, not just
the originator. Hence, the timer only makes sense if it is available at
every hop.

Russ


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At Thu, 07 Jul 2011 16:53:35 -0400, Russ White wrote:
> 
> Bottom line question: Why should AS 1 control the length of time AS2
> is vulnerable to replay attacks by AS' further downstream?

Because it's AS 1's prefix.

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Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2011 21:01:19 -0400
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00
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>> Bottom line question: Why should AS 1 control the length of time AS2
>> is vulnerable to replay attacks by AS' further downstream?
>=20
> Because it's AS 1's prefix.

It's AS2's policy. What you're saying is that a downstream AS shouldn't
be allowed to have protection against replay attacks for traffic they no
longer want to handle because --well, just because.

Sorry, I don't agree.

Russ



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From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Thu Jul  7 18:23:54 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00
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I hate to say this, because mostly I think Russ is starting at shadows,
but I think your answer does not seem to bear on the question that was 
asked.

The fact that AS1 originates an advertisement means that its origination 
information is subject to its lifetime control.
Which is covered by the existing work.
It is also true that the originators path lifetime limitaiton has to 
serve as an upper bound on the lifetime of the advertisement.
But other than those two statements, ti does not seem that the 
originator has any more rights to specify a lifetime than any other 
advertiser adding path information.  Nor does he have any more precise 
information about what a good lifetime is for the path advertisement 
than anyone else has.

This suggests that there is something odd with the lifetime / refresh 
mechanism we have chosen.

Yours,
Joel

On 7/7/2011 6:02 PM, Rob Austein wrote:
> At Thu, 07 Jul 2011 16:53:35 -0400, Russ White wrote:
>>
>> Bottom line question: Why should AS 1 control the length of time AS2
>> is vulnerable to replay attacks by AS' further downstream?
>
> Because it's AS 1's prefix.
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Fri Jul  8 02:51:10 2011
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Subject: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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I am working on Quagga, on behalf of Euro-IX, to allow for future
growth and other developments specific to the needs of a Route Server.

The discussion in 7.4.2 is incomplete.  It may be true that traffic is
80:20 in favour of direct bilateral peering (Method A).  However, that
does not mean that 80% of the peering connections are bilateral
peering -- the distribution of traffic amongst peering connections has
the usual long tail.  Numbers vary, but a large exchange may have 50%
of its clients connected to the route server for most (if not all) of
their peering connections.

Section 6.6 discusses Proxy Signing.  Where a route server is not
inserting its own AS in the path (Method B), it is acting as a proxy
for each route server client.  Given a certificate and private key
from each client, the route server can rewrite the most recent
signature.  So, and please correct me if I have this wrong, the case
is covered ?

Incidentally, the discussion notes that router servers that insert
their AS in the path (Method C) are rare.  I'd put it more strongly
than that, and relegate the case to "footnote" status.  With such a
route server the IXP has all the appearance of a transit provider (at
least at the route level), so would be trivially supported -- at least
until some mechanism is devised to validate the AS Path and the path
taken by packets against each other.  

Chris


From randy@psg.com  Fri Jul  8 03:51:43 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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i have a design that covers you.  it is based on an 'optimization' and
we have agreed to let optimizations sit for a bit.

the hack is as follows <hold nose>:

  o an early optimization will be that each bgpspeaking AS adds a one
    byte prepend count, over which it signs.  this saves signing 92
    prepends.  the count is normally one.

  o a bgpsec-speaking 'transparent' route server signs over a zero
    prepend count.

  o bgpsec speakers calculate as path length by summing prepend counts.

  o a bgpsec speaker passing a signed announcement to a non-speaker
    expands all prepends.  of course, the expansion of a zero prepend
    is rather small.

<release nose>

randy

From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Fri Jul  8 06:37:36 2011
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Randy Bush wrote (on Fri 08-Jul-2011 at 11:52 +0100):
> i have a design that covers you.  it is based on an 'optimization'
> and we have agreed to let optimizations sit for a bit.

OK.  But I quibble with the notion that support for Route Servers
should be treated as an "optimisation".

> the hack is as follows <hold nose>:
> 
>   o an early optimization will be that each bgpspeaking AS adds
>     a one byte prepend count, over which it signs.  this saves
>     signing 92 prepends.  the count is normally one.

OK.  That clears up a confusion I had... I wasn't sure whether there
was supposed to be one signature per ASN in the path, or one per
*distinct* ASN in the path.  For my money, prepending is common enough
to merit covering as a "feature.

>   o a bgpsec-speaking 'transparent' route server signs over a zero
>     prepend count.

You're right: <HOLD NOSE> indeed.
 
That would be, as you suggest, less 'transparent' than it used to be.
I don't know if "revealing" the use of the route server is a serious
issue.  But I'm not sure how much is gained by inserting the route
server ASN ?

It seems reasonable to me to treat the route server as an extension of
its clients' networks -- that's pretty much what it is.  So, if the
route server uses a different key for each client's routes, and the
*client* is responsible for issuing the certificate (as if the route
server were one of its routers), then that about covers it -- unless I
am missing something ?

I suppose that if the route server went off the reservation it could
sign all kinds of rubbish as being announced by its clients, but the
owners of the certificates could revoke them ?

BTW (and sorry if this is a stupid question) where should I be looking
for a discussion of the key/certificate management for AS Path signing
keys ?  This is intended to be added into the RPKI, yes ?

>   o bgpsec speakers calculate as path length by summing prepend
>     counts.

Are you suggesting placing the prepend count in the AS Path itself ?
Say, an AS_SEQUENCE_N, which is like an AS_SEQUENCE, but has a 1 byte
repeat count for the first ASN in the sequence ?  That would pay for
itself (bytes-wise) and mean that where there is no prepending, there
is no overhead -- except for the inclusion of the count (implied or
explicit) in the signed data.

>   o a bgpsec speaker passing a signed announcement to a non-speaker
>     expands all prepends.  of course, the expansion of a zero
>     prepend is rather small.
> 
> <release nose>

<collapse of stout party>

Chris


From randy@psg.com  Fri Jul  8 06:50:48 2011
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>> i have a design that covers you.  it is based on an 'optimization'
>> and we have agreed to let optimizations sit for a bit.
> OK.  But I quibble with the notion that support for Route Servers
> should be treated as an "optimisation".

it is compressing prepends that is the optimization.  transparent route
servers are not an optimization, they're a hack.

>>   o an early optimization will be that each bgpspeaking AS adds
>>     a one byte prepend count, over which it signs.  this saves
>>     signing 92 prepends.  the count is normally one.
> 
> OK.  That clears up a confusion I had... I wasn't sure whether there
> was supposed to be one signature per ASN in the path, or one per
> *distinct* ASN in the path.  For my money, prepending is common enough
> to merit covering as a "feature.

prepending is supported in the current spec.  the problem is that there
is one signature per prepend, expensive.

>>   o a bgpsec-speaking 'transparent' route server signs over a zero
>>     prepend count.
>  
> That would be, as you suggest, less 'transparent' than it used to be.
> I don't know if "revealing" the use of the route server is a serious
> issue.  But I'm not sure how much is gained by inserting the route
> server ASN ?

maintaining bgpsec.  if A hands announcement to RS and RS hands to B and
C truely transparently, to whom does A forward sign the announcement, B
or C?  #faceplant

> It seems reasonable to me to treat the route server as an extension of
> its clients' networks -- that's pretty much what it is.  So, if the
> route server uses a different key for each client's routes, and the
> *client* is responsible for issuing the certificate (as if the route
> server were one of its routers), then that about covers it -- unless I
> am missing something ?

so, A has to know all the ASs to which RS will hand route, forward sign
announcements to each of them and hand all those to RS, and RS then
stores them all and forwards as appropriate.  that'll scale really well.

omg!  on reread it seems you are giving A's private key to RS.  not a
fracking chance in hell.  you just blew the trust model to hell.

>>   o bgpsec speakers calculate as path length by summing prepend
>>     counts.
> 
> Are you suggesting placing the prepend count in the AS Path itself ?

see slide 29 of https://archive.psg.com/110614.nanog-bgpsec.pdf

randy

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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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> so, A has to know all the ASs to which RS will hand route, forward sign
> announcements to each of them and hand all those to RS, and RS then
> stores them all and forwards as appropriate.  that'll scale really well.

IX are used for optimizing local traffic patterns. Only very few 
applications of IX are about Internet peering broker service (but let's 
keep those out for the time being).

So if we assume that A wants to give some of his addresses to B & C via 
RS why do they need to bother with bgpsec at all ?

When A advertises it's nets to it's Internet providers yes it will 
forward sign it properly so they will be announced everywhere according 
to BGPsec rules.

Imagine an IX without RS ... A wants to peer with B and both establish a 
peering relation I really see no need why they should get any of 
additional security on top of their direct route exchange as B will not 
be a transit for A anyway.

Rgs,
R.


From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Fri Jul  8 07:57:44 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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Randy Bush wrote (on 08-Jul-2011 at 14:51 +0100):
> Chris Hall wrote:
> > ... But I'm not sure how much is gained by inserting the
> >     route server ASN ?

> maintaining bgpsec.  if A hands announcement to RS and RS hands to B
> and C truely transparently, to whom does A forward sign the
> announcement, B or C?  #faceplant

A signs it's announcements to RS in the usual way, with the RS ASN as
the next AS hop.

When announcing A's routes to B, the RS *rewrites* the signature it
received, using the key it has for A, as if A had announced the route
directly to B.  Clearly the RS would be required to preserve the
Expire Time on any routes originated by A.  Similarly, announcing A's
routes to any other AS.

Unless that is somehow impossible...

....
> omg!  on reread it seems you are giving A's private key to RS.  not
> a fracking chance in hell.  you just blew the trust model to hell.

...yes, I'm suggesting that A delegates a unique signing key to the
RS.  It is still A's key, so in terms of the trust model, it is
covered by A's CA.  This is what "6.6 Proxy Signing" in
draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices suggests, is it not ?  Or does that
blow the trust model to hell, also ?

Chris




From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Fri Jul  8 09:12:53 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : Algorithm Agility Procedure for RPKI.
	Author(s)       : Roque Gagliano
                          Stephen Kent
                          Sean Turner
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2011-07-08

   This document specifies the process that Certification Authorities
   (CAs) and Relying Parties (RP) participating in the Resource Public
   Key Infrastructure (RPKI) will need to follow to transition to a new
   (and probably cryptographically stronger) algorithm set.  The process
   is expected to be completed in a time scale of months or years.
   Consequently, no emergency transition is specified.  The transition
   procedure defined in this document supports only a top-down migration
   (parent migrates before children).


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt

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In this new version we included the changes from the review by Arturo =
and several editorial nits.

Please take a look at the document and send your comments.

Roque.


On Jul 8, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain =
Routing Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
> 	Title           : Algorithm Agility Procedure for RPKI.
> 	Author(s)       : Roque Gagliano
>                          Stephen Kent
>                          Sean Turner
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 25
> 	Date            : 2011-07-08
>=20
>   This document specifies the process that Certification Authorities
>   (CAs) and Relying Parties (RP) participating in the Resource Public
>   Key Infrastructure (RPKI) will need to follow to transition to a new
>   (and probably cryptographically stronger) algorithm set.  The =
process
>   is expected to be completed in a time scale of months or years.
>   Consequently, no emergency transition is specified.  The transition
>   procedure defined in this document supports only a top-down =
migration
>   (parent migrates before children).
>=20
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.t=
xt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
> =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.tx=
t
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr


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From randy@psg.com  Fri Jul  8 11:23:35 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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> I'm suggesting that A delegates a unique signing key to the RS.

the expression we use is, now RS can sign gifs of naked furries in A's
name.  i.e. A has given away the store.  you do NOT let anyone else have
your private keys.

for example. in this context, RS can now give that key to Perp who can
originate A's prefixes.  #fail

> This is what "6.6 Proxy Signing" in
> draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices suggests, is it not ?  Or does that
> blow the trust model to hell, also ?

it does indeed.  that is why 6.6 was rejected.

randy

From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Fri Jul  8 11:55:41 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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Randy Bush wrote (on Fri 08-Jul-2011 at 19:24 +0100):
....
> > This is what "6.6 Proxy Signing" in
> > draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices suggests, is it
> > not ?  Or does that blow the trust model to hell,
> > also ?

> it does indeed.  that is why 6.6 was rejected.

Ah.  There I was, reading a draft of 5-Jul-2011 and thinking I was up
to date :-(

OK.  If the RS ASN is in the path, then nobody needs to depend on the
integrity of the RS (however trustworthy one may expect them to be).
I look forward to the ASN count mechanism appearing in the draft(s),
and support for Route Servers making its way into the Requirements.

Chris


From randy@psg.com  Fri Jul  8 12:03:12 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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> IX are used for optimizing local traffic patterns. Only very few 
> applications of IX are about Internet peering broker service (but let's 
> keep those out for the time being).

ixen are used for all sorts of things, including transit.

> So if we assume that A wants to give some of his addresses to B & C via 
> RS why do they need to bother with bgpsec at all ?

because A, B, and C have bgpsec speaking customers who want their
prefixes protected.

> When A advertises it's nets to it's Internet providers yes it will 
> forward sign it properly so they will be announced everywhere according 
> to BGPsec rules.

it's not just A's prefixes, it's also A's customers' prefixes.

> Imagine an IX without RS ... A wants to peer with B and both establish
> a peering relation I really see no need why they should get any of
> additional security on top of their direct route exchange as B will
> not be a transit for A anyway.

first, you have no idea whether they are transit or not.  the business
models across exchanges are quite diverse.

second, both A and B have CUSTOMERS.  A and B received those prefixes as
signed, and A's and B's receiving customers want to receive them via
bgpsec.

no one's customers want to have their security reduced just because an
upstream or more complex business partner uses an exchange point.
weakened security does not sell well.

randy

From randy@psg.com  Fri Jul  8 12:06:45 2011
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>>> This is what "6.6 Proxy Signing" in
>>> draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices suggests, is it not ?  Or does
>>> that blow the trust model to hell, also ?
>> it does indeed.  that is why 6.6 was rejected.
> Ah.  There I was, reading a draft of 5-Jul-2011 and thinking I was up
> to date :-(

sriram's document represents the design team's thought processes, and
therefore includes things which were rejected in the design.

the bgpsec protocol documents are, i think, still are

    draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-overview-00.txt
    draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-protocol-00.txt

> OK.  If the RS ASN is in the path, then nobody needs to depend on the
> integrity of the RS (however trustworthy one may expect them to be).

bingo!

> I look forward to the ASN count mechanism appearing in the draft(s),
> and support for Route Servers making its way into the Requirements.

i am still selling my hack to the design team.

randy

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Hi Roque,

This draft seems very complete. I have just a few questions and =
comments:

1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with this process during an algorithm =
transition MUST be considered as non-compliance with ...
I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP where failing to comply with =
this process would be result in non-compliance. It would be hopeful to =
more specific here.

2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues =
certificates to entities not under its administrative control." I =
believe this effectively  means "CAs that have children", and if that's =
the intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present =
definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other =
non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to =
be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the =
definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA is "under its =
administrative control" in the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might =
not be administered by the parent (e.g., RIR).

3. Section 4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, at =
the same moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" figure =
shows that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these =
reconcile?

4. Section 4.3. The alignment errors that Arturo mentioned don't seem to =
be fixed in -01. Did you mean to adjust them? Also, it might be worth =
stating explicitly in the Note following this first example that the =
indentation mean "signed by".

5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed product sets MUST be =
available using both Algorithm Suite A and Algorithm Suite B." It isn't =
clear to me what "During this phase" means in Phase 2. Does it mean "By =
the end of this phase"? Or does it mean "Before the start of Phase 3", =
which is not the same moment in time according to the figures in Section =
4.2. I'm inclined to think it means "Before the start of Phase 3", =
because by Phase 3 "all product sets are available". Although again, =
Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this phrase" so that also isn't =
clear and I would recommend being more precise here too.

6. Section 4.5. "An RP that validates all signed product sets using both =
Algorithm Suite A or Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD expect the same results." =
The text added to this paragraph in -01 clarifies how to resolve =
certificate validation results that differ, but I think it would be =
helpful to include references to both Sections 6 and 7 here which cover =
issues when on there are differences in validation more thoroughly.

7. (nit) The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to -17. =
I didn't check other references.

Thanks,
Brian

On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:

> In this new version we included the changes from the review by Arturo =
and several editorial nits.
>=20
> Please take a look at the document and send your comments.
>=20
> Roque.

--=20
Brian Weis
Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
Email: bew@cisco.com






From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Fri Jul  8 12:30:30 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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On Fri, 8 Jul 2011, Chris Hall wrote:

> Randy Bush wrote (on Fri 08-Jul-2011 at 19:24 +0100):
> ....
>>> This is what "6.6 Proxy Signing" in
>>> draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices suggests, is it
>>> not ?  Or does that blow the trust model to hell,
>>> also ?
>
>> it does indeed.  that is why 6.6 was rejected.
>
> Ah.  There I was, reading a draft of 5-Jul-2011 and thinking I was up
> to date :-(

The previous section, 6.5, lists alternatives for handling stub ASs. 
Note that alternative 2 is the same description as 6.6, but alternative 2 
was not the chosen alternative.  That might be what Randy meant when he 
said "rejected."

Section 6.6 rightly notes that if an AS decided to share its private key 
with another AS, no one outside the agreement could tell the difference.

Therein lies the power and the danger of sharing private keys.

--Sandy, regular ol' wg member


>
> OK.  If the RS ASN is in the path, then nobody needs to depend on the
> integrity of the RS (however trustworthy one may expect them to be).
> I look forward to the ASN count mechanism appearing in the draft(s),
> and support for Route Servers making its way into the Requirements.
>
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

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On the previous post I just wanted to limit such bgpsec less exchange to 
stub customers only. But I agree and stand corrected that if we solve it 
for all - transit included - then there is no need to make any special 
treatment for stubs. Question withdrawn.

---

However I would like to ask for some clarification on why bgpsec is all 
about securing advertised nets and does not (at least to the best of my 
knowledge) certify that such prefixes have been advertised with 
legitimate next hops (the one which the prefix owner really owns). I 
browsed the respective drafts and did not find a trace of such.

If we talk about RS in particular such RS is not in the data path hence 
it is not modifying next hops as received from his clients.

How are we going to protect the paths from compromised RS where the 
prefixes are advertised correctly but next hops are bogus ? What's worse 
client's customers connected via such RS may have chosen such paths as 
best even if they have alternatives ...

Thx,
R.

From kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov  Fri Jul  8 16:27:03 2011
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From: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>
To: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>, Chris Hall <chris.hall@highwayman.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2011 19:26:38 -0400
Thread-Topic: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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Sandy's observations are correct.
Further, the topic of Section 6.6 cannot be either "accepted" or "rejected"
as a matter of BGPSEC protocol specification.
It is merely a statement that _outside_of_the_BGPSEC_protocol_specification_,
any two consenting ASes can have this private arrangement.
Section 6.6 clearly notes thus:   
"This is a private arrangement between said parties and is invisible to other ASes.  
Thus, this arrangement is not part of the BGPSEC protocol specification."
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00#section-6.6 

Sriram

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sandra Murphy
> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2011 3:30 PM
> To: Chris Hall
> Cc: 'sidr wg list'
> Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2011, Chris Hall wrote:
> 
> > Randy Bush wrote (on Fri 08-Jul-2011 at 19:24 +0100):
> > ....
> >>> This is what "6.6 Proxy Signing" in
> >>> draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices suggests, is it
> >>> not ?  Or does that blow the trust model to hell,
> >>> also ?
> >
> >> it does indeed.  that is why 6.6 was rejected.
> >
> > Ah.  There I was, reading a draft of 5-Jul-2011 and thinking I was up
> > to date :-(
> 
> The previous section, 6.5, lists alternatives for handling stub ASs.
> Note that alternative 2 is the same description as 6.6, but alternative 2
> was not the chosen alternative.  That might be what Randy meant when he
> said "rejected."
> 
> Section 6.6 rightly notes that if an AS decided to share its private key
> with another AS, no one outside the agreement could tell the difference.
> 
> Therein lies the power and the danger of sharing private keys.
> 
> --Sandy, regular ol' wg member
> 
> 
> >
> > OK.  If the RS ASN is in the path, then nobody needs to depend on the
> > integrity of the RS (however trustworthy one may expect them to be).
> > I look forward to the ASN count mechanism appearing in the draft(s),
> > and support for Route Servers making its way into the Requirements.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sidr mailing list
> > sidr@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
> >
> _______________________________________________
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From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Sat Jul  9 02:37:47 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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Sriram, Kotikalapudi wrote (on Sat 09-Jul-2011 at 00:27 +0100):
> Sandy's observations are correct.
>
...
> Section 6.6 clearly notes thus:
> "This is a private arrangement between said parties and
>  is invisible to other ASes.  Thus, this arrangement is
>  not part of the BGPSEC protocol specification."

Strictly entre nous, I don't get a strong sense from the text that
entering into such an arrangement is an obvious and foolish mistake
:-}  Unlike, for example, an ISP using its own key to proxy sign for a
customer, which is "considered a bad idea".

Chris


From kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov  Sat Jul  9 06:31:15 2011
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From: "Sriram, Kotikalapudi" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>
To: Chris Hall <chris.hall@highwayman.com>
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>Strictly entre nous, I don't get a strong sense from the text that
>entering into such an arrangement is an obvious and foolish mistake
>:-}  Unlike, for example, an ISP using its own key to proxy sign for a
>customer, which is "considered a bad idea".
>
>Chris

If an ISP (or IXP/RS) and its customer feel strongly that they have a long trusted relationship,
and they are comfortable with this type of arrangement (outside of BGPSEC
but still only to allow them to perform BGPSEC more efficiently or with lower cost), 
what good does it do to tell them that they are making "an obvious and foolish mistake"?
They also know that the customer can revoke the EE cert and annul the 
router (or RS)-specific private key if the relationship ends or trust
is compromised (Section 6.6.2).   

Having said that, I respect Randy's viewpoint (and yours -- seems you are in agreement).
There is no conflict here since it is not about BGPSEC protocol specification.
This is about operational best practices.
We can revise Section 6.6 to put greater emphasis on the "cons" part of it.

Sriram
________________________________________


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> However I would like to ask for some clarification on why bgpsec is all 
> about securing advertised nets and does not (at least to the best of my 
> knowledge) certify that such prefixes have been advertised with 
> legitimate next hops (the one which the prefix owner really owns).

considering next hop likely changes at AS boundaries (and for some ops
practice, within the AS), how and why would one sign it?  e.g. at the
boundary between A and B, why bother having A sign it across what should
be a trustable boundary.

and, if A did sign it, and B changes the next hop when handing the
update on to C, A's signature just got farbled.

so bottom line, imiho, what's the need, and doing it would break things.

randy

From rogaglia@cisco.com  Sat Jul  9 08:00:57 2011
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From: Roque Gagliano <rogaglia@cisco.com>
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Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 17:00:49 +0200
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To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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Randy,

>> I'm suggesting that A delegates a unique signing key to the RS.
>=20
> the expression we use is, now RS can sign gifs of naked furries in A's
> name.  i.e. A has given away the store.  you do NOT let anyone else =
have
> your private keys.
>=20
> for example. in this context, RS can now give that key to Perp who can
> originate A's prefixes.  #fail

I do not follow this reasoning. The certificate for BGPSEC are EE =
certificates with only A's ASN in its RFC3779 extension. So, you cannot =
use the same key to sign a ROA with another ASN nor issue any =
certificate using that same key.

IMHO, A good idea could be to clearly identify BGPSEC EE certs in the =
RPKI repository by assign them a distinct Extended Key Usage (EKU). The =
use of EKU is permitted by the RPKI CP. The EKU should be checked by the =
RP during the validation process.

Roque =20


>=20
>> This is what "6.6 Proxy Signing" in
>> draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices suggests, is it not ?  Or does =
that
>> blow the trust model to hell, also ?
>=20
> it does indeed.  that is why 6.6 was rejected.
>=20
> randy
> _______________________________________________
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From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Sat Jul  9 16:05:30 2011
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From: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
To: Robert Raszuk <raszuk@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] IXP and Route Server and Next Hop transparency
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On Fri, 8 Jul 2011, Robert Raszuk wrote:

>
> On the previous post I just wanted to limit such bgpsec less exchange to stub 
> customers only. But I agree and stand corrected that if we solve it for all - 
> transit included - then there is no need to make any special treatment for 
> stubs. Question withdrawn.
>
> ---
>
> However I would like to ask for some clarification on why bgpsec is all about 
> securing advertised nets and does not (at least to the best of my knowledge) 
> certify that such prefixes have been advertised with legitimate next hops 
> (the one which the prefix owner really owns). I browsed the respective drafts
> and did not find a trace of such.

The owner of the advertised prefix doesn't have ownership of the next hops 
along the path. nor does it have anything to say about the legitimacy of 
next hops along the path.

There's this whole "third part next hop" concept which would make 
determining legitimacy of the next hop complicated.

--Sandy, speaking as regular ol' wg member


>
> If we talk about RS in particular such RS is not in the data path hence it is 
> not modifying next hops as received from his clients.
>
> How are we going to protect the paths from compromised RS where the prefixes 
> are advertised correctly but next hops are bogus ? What's worse client's 
> customers connected via such RS may have chosen such paths as best even if 
> they have alternatives ...
>
> Thx,
> R.
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

From raszuk@cisco.com  Sat Jul  9 16:23:18 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] IXP and Route Server and Next Hop transparency
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Hi Sandy,

> The owner of the advertised prefix doesn't have ownership of the next
> hops along the path. nor does it have anything to say about the
> legitimacy of next hops along the path.
>
> There's this whole "third part next hop" concept which would make
> determining legitimacy of the next hop complicated.

Third party next hop (typical in IX cases) assures that the ownership of 
the next hop stays unchanged. So I would observe that this would make it 
actually easier there.

Moreover there are deployed applications which specifically mandate to 
not change next hop across AS boundaries. As example I could bring 
Inter-AS option C for L3VPNs. Note that there can be transit ASes in the 
path too. So how are we going to assure a customer of such service that 
the advertising prefix from customer site attached to AS 1, transiting 
via AS 2 and terminating at AS 3 got to the final site on the other side 
uncompromized ?

Maybe one should ask the bigger question: Is BGPSec as is being defined 
in SIDR applicable to other address families other then 1/1|2 and 2/1|2 
which still carry IP prefixes or is it out of scope ?

How about Internet as a VPN (aka Internet in a VRF scenarios) where 
internet routes may travel as vpnv4/vpnv6 updates ?

How about those address families in BGP which are designed to carry 
control plane information between domains for example: bgp flowspec or 
rt-constrain ?

I am just trying to understand if we are talking more of enhancements to 
bgp security (bgp being the protocol) or perhaps about just limiting the 
SIDR scope to build a new layer for controlling traditional Internet 
prefix propagation ?

Many thx.
R.

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Sun Jul 10 07:04:53 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-origin-ops-10.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : RPKI-Based Origin Validation Operation
	Author(s)       : Randy Bush
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-origin-ops-10.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2011-07-10

   Deployment of RPKI-based BGP origin validation has many operational
   considerations.  This document attempts to collect and present them.
   It is expected to evolve as RPKI-based origin validation is deployed
   and the dynamics are better understood.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-origin-ops-10.txt

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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
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	Title           : The RPKI Ghostbusters Record
	Author(s)       : Randy Bush
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-05.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2011-07-10

   In the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI), resource
   certificates completely obscure names or any other information which
   might be useful for contacting responsible parties to deal with
   issues of certificate expiration, maintenance, roll-overs,
   compromises, etc.  This draft describes the RPKI Ghostbusters Record
   containing human contact information to be signed (indirectly) by a
   resource-owning certificate.  The data in the record are those of a
   severely profiled vCARD.



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
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	Title           : The RPKI/Router Protocol
	Author(s)       : Randy Bush
                          Rob Austein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-rtr-14.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2011-07-10

   In order to formally validate the origin ASs of BGP announcements,
   routers need a simple but reliable mechanism to receive RPKI
   [I-D.ietf-sidr-arch] prefix origin data from a trusted cache.  This
   document describes a protocol to deliver validated prefix origin data
   to routers.



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From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Sun Jul 10 09:05:45 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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Sandra Murphy wrote (on Fri 08-Jul-2011 at 20:30):
...
> Section 6.6 rightly notes that if an AS decided to share its
> private key with another AS, no one outside the agreement
> could tell the difference.

As it stands, this is how a transparent route server could be
implemented.

I don't see a requirement to support transparent route servers in
draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-reqs :-(

Mind you, placing the RS ASN in the path might be said to violate:

  3.15 A BGPsec design MUST NOT require operators to reveal
       more than is currently revealed...

Though there's no shame in using an RS... except, perhaps, that your
larger ASes will tend not to, and may turn their noses up at those
that do.

Using an RS, IXP customers can peer with each other for the cost of
one BGP Session (or one with each local RS instance).  At some IXPs
there are several hundred RS clients.  The cost doesn't go away, but
falls on the RS, which scales as (N * N * R) -- number of clients 'N'
and average number of routes each 'R' -- that is: it scales horribly.

It would make life easier for the RS if the clients' routers were able
to do more of the work -- noting that it is vital that this does NOT
require any additional administrative effort beyond the initial
configuration, and that new RS clients are automatically connected to
all others (by default, at least).  But any change at the client end
requires some change to BGP and/or to administrative features of BGP
implementations... so good luck with that, as they say :-(

One such approach would use something like draft-walton-bgp-add-paths
(currently expired), so that the RS no longer has to make any best
path selection, but can pass all routes it has for each prefix, and
let the clients decide.  (This also solves the problem of how to allow
clients to tune the selection process in the RS.)

For BGPSEC it might be nice to push the signing out to the client:
suppose BGPSEC were extended, so that each route given to the RS
contained a list of AS Path signatures, one for each possible
destination.  This would also require a means for the RS to signal all
possible destination ASes, so that there is no need for administrators
to fiddle with their configurations.  This solves the private key
issue and has the happy property of moving work to the client --
except that they may not be quite ready to generate and send several
hundred path signatures per route !

More exotic would be to arrange for the RS to talk to a box in each
client which would provide the required signatures (inside the minimum
advertisement interval).  If that were a function of the local RPKI
Cache, then setting up a BGPSEC connection to the RS would be a little
more complicated, but once done would require no further work.  (The
request for a new signature could pass the current signatures, AS Path
and NLRI etc, so that the signing box can verify that the RS is not
asking for something it shouldn't.)

Chris


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From: "Chris Hall" <chris.hall@highwayman.com>
To: "'Sriram, Kotikalapudi'" <kotikalapudi.sriram@nist.gov>
References: <012601cc3d54$8f07c4e0$ad174ea0$@highwayman.com>	<m2y609kptw.wl%randy@psg.com>	<014001cc3d74$319571c0$94c05540$@highwayman.com>	<m2pqlklw3v.wl%randy@psg.com>	<014a01cc3d7f$6312f730$2938e590$@highwayman.com>	<m2oc14ljh7.wl%randy@psg.com>	<017d01cc3da0$9f8cd390$dea67ab0$@highwayman.com> <Pine.WNT.4.64.1107081506110.1536@SMURPHY-LT.columbia.ads.sparta.com> <D7A0423E5E193F40BE6E94126930C4930879E9BDD3@MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov>, <01ab01cc3e1b$db54d230$91fe7690$@highwayman.com> <D7A0423E5E193F40BE6E94126930C4930877FE8A5C@MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov>
In-Reply-To: <D7A0423E5E193F40BE6E94126930C4930877FE8A5C@MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov>
Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:46:54 +0100
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Cc: 'Sandra Murphy' <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>, 'sidr wg list' <sidr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-sriram-bgpsec-design-choices-00 -- IXP and Route Server
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Sriram, Kotikalapudi wrote (on 09-Jul-2011 at 14:30 +0100):
> Chris Hall wrote:
....
> >Strictly entre nous, I don't get a strong sense from the text that
> >entering into such an arrangement is an obvious and foolish mistake
> :-}
....
> Having said that, I respect Randy's viewpoint (and yours -- seems
> you are in agreement).

I was mostly paraphrasing the opinion which had been put to me quite
strongly.

>From where I sit, I would happily trust, say, the LINX.  But I
entirely take the point that a better system would not require me to
depend entirely on trust; and someone new to the LINX might prefer not
to.

....
> We can revise Section 6.6 to put greater emphasis on the "cons" part
> of it.

I think that would be a most reasonable thing to do.

Particularly, from the RS perspective, because Proxy Signing is
(currently) how a Transparent BGPSEC RS might be implemented.  The
cons would be the basis for a case for some other solution, in the
BGPSEC protocol, or elsewhere. 

Chris


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Sun Jul 10 16:33:33 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : The RPKI Ghostbusters Record
	Author(s)       : Randy Bush
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2011-07-10

   In the Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI), resource
   certificates completely obscure names or any other information which
   might be useful for contacting responsible parties to deal with
   issues of certificate expiration, maintenance, roll-overs,
   compromises, etc.  This draft describes the RPKI Ghostbusters Record
   containing human contact information to be signed (indirectly) by a
   resource-owning certificate.  The data in the record are those of a
   severely profiled vCARD.



A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt

From randy@psg.com  Sun Jul 10 23:50:20 2011
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Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 15:50:17 +0900
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
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Subject: [sidr] rpki-based origin validation mibs
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here are the two router mibs for the rpki-rtr protocol and for roa-based
origin validation in the router

    draft-ymbk-rpki-rtr-protocol-mib-01.txt
    draft-ymbk-bgp-origin-validation-mib-00.txt

randy

From rogaglia@cisco.com  Mon Jul 11 02:29:08 2011
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From: Roque Gagliano <rogaglia@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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Hi Brian,

Thank you very much for your review.

Please see my comments inline.

Roque

On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:08 PM, Brian Weis wrote:

> Hi Roque,
>=20
> This draft seems very complete. I have just a few questions and =
comments:
>=20
> 1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with this process during an =
algorithm transition MUST be considered as non-compliance with ...
> I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP where failing to comply =
with this process would be result in non-compliance. It would be hopeful =
to more specific here.

(Roque) This is good feedback but I think we cannot delay the =
publication of the CP document. The idea is that the Algorithm Suites =
definition are part of the CP, consequently, the process to modify these =
suites should also be consider as a global RPKI requirement and thus =
tied to the CP.

>=20
> 2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues =
certificates to entities not under its administrative control." I =
believe this effectively  means "CAs that have children", and if that's =
the intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present =
definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other =
non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to =
be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the =
definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA is "under its =
administrative control" in the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might =
not be administered by the parent (e.g., RIR).

(Roque) These are the "CA that have children and with whom the signaling =
is carried out through the provisioning protocol".=20

What about changing the definition to"

Non-Leaf CA: A CA that issues certificates to external entities by using =
the provisioning protocol described in [PROV.].

>=20
> 3. Section 4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, at =
the same moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" figure =
shows that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these =
reconcile?

(Roque)=20
I will change that, however, the milestone 5 (Twilight Date) is the date =
where the NEW becomes CURRENT and the CURRENT becomes OLD. If the RP and =
the CA did their part of the work, they should both be ready at that =
time to issue/revoke and validate certificates with both algorithms, so =
there is no "action" that should be taken at=20

>=20
> 4. Section 4.3. The alignment errors that Arturo mentioned don't seem =
to be fixed in -01. Did you mean to adjust them? Also, it might be worth =
stating explicitly in the Note following this first example that the =
indentation mean "signed by".

(Roque)
Thanks. I will correct and do better "quality control".

>=20
> 5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed product sets MUST be =
available using both Algorithm Suite A and Algorithm Suite B." It isn't =
clear to me what "During this phase" means in Phase 2. Does it mean "By =
the end of this phase"? Or does it mean "Before the start of Phase 3", =
which is not the same moment in time according to the figures in Section =
4.2. I'm inclined to think it means "Before the start of Phase 3", =
because by Phase 3 "all product sets are available". Although again, =
Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this phrase" so that also isn't =
clear and I would recommend being more precise here too.

(Roque) "During this phase" means since start to end of these phase =
(i.e. after "CA Go Algorithm B date"). In Phase 2 all products are =
available using both algorithms but not all RP MUST validate them both, =
that only happens in Phase 3 (after "RP Ready Algorithm B Date")


> 6. Section 4.5. "An RP that validates all signed product sets using =
both Algorithm Suite A or Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD expect the same =
results." The text added to this paragraph in -01 clarifies how to =
resolve certificate validation results that differ, but I think it would =
be helpful to include references to both Sections 6 and 7 here which =
cover issues when on there are differences in validation more =
thoroughly.

(Roque) ok. will add.

> 7. (nit) The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to =
-17. I didn't check other references.

(Roque) ok.

Thanks again,

Roque

>=20
> Thanks,
> Brian
>=20
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:
>=20
>> In this new version we included the changes from the review by Arturo =
and several editorial nits.
>>=20
>> Please take a look at the document and send your comments.
>>=20
>> Roque.
>=20
> --=20
> Brian Weis
> Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
> Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
> Email: bew@cisco.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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	charset=us-ascii

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi =
Brian,<div><br></div><div>Thank you very much for your =
review.</div><div><br></div><div>Please see my comments =
inline.</div><div><br></div><div>Roque</div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 8, =
2011, at 9:08 PM, Brian Weis wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Hi =
Roque,<br><br>This draft seems very complete. I have just a few =
questions and comments:<br><br>1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with =
this process during an algorithm transition MUST be considered as =
non-compliance with ...<br>I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP =
where failing to comply with this process would be result in =
non-compliance. It would be hopeful to more specific =
here.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) This is good =
feedback but I think we cannot delay the publication of the CP document. =
The idea is that the Algorithm Suites definition are part of the CP, =
consequently, the process to modify these suites should also be consider =
as a global RPKI requirement and thus tied to the =
CP.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>2. Section 3. =
The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues certificates to =
entities not under its administrative control." I believe this =
effectively &nbsp;means "CAs that have children", and if that's the =
intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present =
definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other =
non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to =
be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the =
definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA is "under its =
administrative control" in the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might =
not be administered by the parent (e.g., =
RIR).<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) These are the =
"CA that have children and with whom the signaling is carried out =
through the provisioning protocol".&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>What =
about changing the definition to"</div><div><br></div><div>Non-Leaf CA: =
A CA that issues certificates to external entities by using the =
provisioning protocol described in =
[PROV.].</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>3. =
Section 4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, at the =
same moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" figure =
shows that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these =
reconcile?<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque)&nbsp;</div><d=
iv>I will change that, however, the milestone 5 (Twilight Date) is the =
date where the NEW becomes CURRENT and the CURRENT becomes OLD. If the =
RP and the CA did their part of the work, they should both be ready at =
that time to issue/revoke and validate certificates with both =
algorithms, so there is no "action" that should be taken =
at&nbsp;</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>4. Section 4.3. The =
alignment errors that Arturo mentioned don't seem to be fixed in -01. =
Did you mean to adjust them? Also, it might be worth stating explicitly =
in the Note following this first example that the indentation mean =
"signed =
by".<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque)</div><div>Thanks. =
I will correct and do better "quality control".</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed =
product sets MUST be available using both Algorithm Suite A and =
Algorithm Suite B." It isn't clear to me what "During this phase" means =
in Phase 2. Does it mean "By the end of this phase"? Or does it mean =
"Before the start of Phase 3", which is not the same moment in time =
according to the figures in Section 4.2. I'm inclined to think it means =
"Before the start of Phase 3", because by Phase 3 "all product sets are =
available". Although again, Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this =
phrase" so that also isn't clear and I would recommend being more =
precise here too.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) =
"During this phase" means since start to end of these phase (i.e. =
after<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"white-space: =
pre;">&nbsp;"CA Go Algorithm B date"). In Phase 2 all products are =
available using both algorithms but not all RP MUST validate them both, =
that only happens in Phase 3 (after "RP Ready Algorithm B =
Date")</span></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>6. =
Section 4.5. "An RP that validates all signed product sets using both =
Algorithm Suite A or Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD expect the same results." =
The text added to this paragraph in -01 clarifies how to resolve =
certificate validation results that differ, but I think it would be =
helpful to include references to both Sections 6 and 7 here which cover =
issues when on there are differences in validation more thoroughly.<font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#000000"><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#144FAE"><br></font></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>(Roque) ok. will add.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>7. (nit) =
The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to -17. I didn't =
check other =
references.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) =
ok.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks =
again,</div><div><br></div><div>Roque</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>Thanks,<br>Brian<br><br>On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 =
AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">In this new =
version we included the changes from the review by Arturo and several =
editorial nits.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Please take a =
look at the document and send your comments.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Roque.<br></blockquote><br>-- <br>Brian Weis<br>Security =
Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems<br>Telephone: +1 408 526 =
4796<br>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:bew@cisco.com">bew@cisco.com</a><br><br><br><br><br><br></d=
iv></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Mon Jul 11 08:22:27 2011
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Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:22:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
From: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
To: Roque Gagliano <rogaglia@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2011, Roque Gagliano wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> Thank you very much for your review.
>
> Please see my comments inline.
>
> Roque
>
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:08 PM, Brian Weis wrote:
>
>> Hi Roque,
>>
>> This draft seems very complete. I have just a few questions and comments:
>>
>> 1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with this process during an algorithm transition MUST be considered as non-compliance with ...
>> I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP where failing to comply with this process would be result in non-compliance. It would be hopeful to more specific here.
>
> (Roque) This is good feedback but I think we cannot delay the publication of the CP document. The idea is that the Algorithm Suites definition are part of the CP, consequently, the process to modify these suites should also be consider as a global RPKI requirement and thus tied to the CP.
>

You seem to be saying that the alg transition mechanism is an addition to
the global cert policy - an addendum/update of the CP (RSN an) RFC.

True?

If so, that should be noted.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair, ceremonial vestments and badges donned


>>
>> 2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues certificates to entities not under its administrative control." I believe this effectively  means "CAs that have children", and if that's the intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA is "under its administrative control" in the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might not be administered by the parent (e.g., RIR).
>
> (Roque) These are the "CA that have children and with whom the signaling is carried out through the provisioning protocol".
>
> What about changing the definition to"
>
> Non-Leaf CA: A CA that issues certificates to external entities by using the provisioning protocol described in [PROV.].
>
>>
>> 3. Section 4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, at the same moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" figure shows that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these reconcile?
>
> (Roque)
> I will change that, however, the milestone 5 (Twilight Date) is the date where the NEW becomes CURRENT and the CURRENT becomes OLD. If the RP and the CA did their part of the work, they should both be ready at that time to issue/revoke and validate certificates with both algorithms, so there is no "action" that should be taken at
>
>>
>> 4. Section 4.3. The alignment errors that Arturo mentioned don't seem to be fixed in -01. Did you mean to adjust them? Also, it might be worth stating explicitly in the Note following this first example that the indentation mean "signed by".
>
> (Roque)
> Thanks. I will correct and do better "quality control".
>
>>
>> 5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed product sets MUST be available using both Algorithm Suite A and Algorithm Suite B." It isn't clear to me what "During this phase" means in Phase 2. Does it mean "By the end of this phase"? Or does it mean "Before the start of Phase 3", which is not the same moment in time according to the figures in Section 4.2. I'm inclined to think it means "Before the start of Phase 3", because by Phase 3 "all product sets are available". Although again, Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this phrase" so that also isn't clear and I would recommend being more precise here too.
>
> (Roque) "During this phase" means since start to end of these phase (i.e. after "CA Go Algorithm B date"). In Phase 2 all products are available using both algorithms but not all RP MUST validate them both, that only happens in Phase 3 (after "RP Ready Algorithm B Date")
>
>
>> 6. Section 4.5. "An RP that validates all signed product sets using both Algorithm Suite A or Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD expect the same results." The text added to this paragraph in -01 clarifies how to resolve certificate validation results that differ, but I think it would be helpful to include references to both Sections 6 and 7 here which cover issues when on there are differences in validation more thoroughly.
>
> (Roque) ok. will add.
>
>> 7. (nit) The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to -17. I didn't check other references.
>
> (Roque) ok.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Roque
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>>
>> On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:
>>
>>> In this new version we included the changes from the review by Arturo and several editorial nits.
>>>
>>> Please take a look at the document and send your comments.
>>>
>>> Roque.
>>
>> --
>> Brian Weis
>> Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
>> Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
>> Email: bew@cisco.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : A Publication Protocol for the Resource Public Key Infra=
structure (RPKI)
	Author(s)       : Samuel Weiler
                          Anuja Sonalker
                          Rob Austein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-publication-01.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2011-07-11

   This document defines a protocol for publishing Resource Public Key
   Infrastructure (RPKI) objects.  Even though the RPKI will have many
   participants issuing certificates and creating other objects, it is
   operationally useful to consolidate the publication of those objects.
   This document provides the protocol for doing so.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-publication-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-publication-01.txt

From bew@cisco.com  Mon Jul 11 09:43:16 2011
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From: Brian Weis <bew@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 09:43:13 -0700
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To: Roque Gagliano <rogaglia@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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Hi Roque,

On Jul 11, 2011, at 2:29 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>=20
> Thank you very much for your review.
>=20
> Please see my comments inline.
>=20
> Roque
>=20
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:08 PM, Brian Weis wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Roque,
>>=20
>> This draft seems very complete. I have just a few questions and =
comments:
>>=20
>> 1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with this process during an =
algorithm transition MUST be considered as non-compliance with ...
>> I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP where failing to comply =
with this process would be result in non-compliance. It would be hopeful =
to more specific here.
>=20
> (Roque) This is good feedback but I think we cannot delay the =
publication of the CP document. The idea is that the Algorithm Suites =
definition are part of the CP, consequently, the process to modify these =
suites should also be consider as a global RPKI requirement and thus =
tied to the CP.

I didn't intend to affect the CP document. But since this statement =
implies that this document "updates" the CP, then I think the this =
document should say so at the top. I believe that was Sandy's point.

>=20
>>=20
>> 2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues =
certificates to entities not under its administrative control." I =
believe this effectively  means "CAs that have children", and if that's =
the intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present =
definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other =
non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to =
be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the =
definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA is "under its =
administrative control" in the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might =
not be administered by the parent (e.g., RIR).
>=20
> (Roque) These are the "CA that have children and with whom the =
signaling is carried out through the provisioning protocol".=20
>=20
> What about changing the definition to"
>=20
> Non-Leaf CA: A CA that issues certificates to external entities by =
using the provisioning protocol described in [PROV.].

That's a good precise definition.

>=20
>>=20
>> 3. Section 4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, at =
the same moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" figure =
shows that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these =
reconcile?
>=20
> (Roque)=20
> I will change that, however, the milestone 5 (Twilight Date) is the =
date where the NEW becomes CURRENT and the CURRENT becomes OLD. If the =
RP and the CA did their part of the work, they should both be ready at =
that time to issue/revoke and validate certificates with both =
algorithms, so there is no "action" that should be taken at=20

I understand now, but that's a subtle interpretation of "affects". It =
might be clearer to say something like "The only milestone at which both =
CAs and RPs take action at the same moment is the EOL date". (And that's =
a powerful statement, in my opinion.)

>=20
>>=20
>> 4. Section 4.3. The alignment errors that Arturo mentioned don't seem =
to be fixed in -01. Did you mean to adjust them? Also, it might be worth =
stating explicitly in the Note following this first example that the =
indentation mean "signed by".
>=20
> (Roque)
> Thanks. I will correct and do better "quality control".
>=20
>>=20
>> 5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed product sets MUST be =
available using both Algorithm Suite A and Algorithm Suite B." It isn't =
clear to me what "During this phase" means in Phase 2. Does it mean "By =
the end of this phase"? Or does it mean "Before the start of Phase 3", =
which is not the same moment in time according to the figures in Section =
4.2. I'm inclined to think it means "Before the start of Phase 3", =
because by Phase 3 "all product sets are available". Although again, =
Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this phrase" so that also isn't =
clear and I would recommend being more precise here too.
>=20
> (Roque) "During this phase" means since start to end of these phase =
(i.e. after "CA Go Algorithm B date"). In Phase 2 all products are =
available using both algorithms but not all RP MUST validate them both, =
that only happens in Phase 3 (after "RP Ready Algorithm B Date")

According to a dictionary I consulted, I note that "during" does mean =
"throughout" so the use of that word is accurate with your =
clarification. But I do think it would be clearer if "During the phase" =
was replaced with "Throughout this phase",  "=46rom the start of this =
phase", or something that is less semantic.

Thanks,
Brian

>> 6. Section 4.5. "An RP that validates all signed product sets using =
both Algorithm Suite A or Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD expect the same =
results." The text added to this paragraph in -01 clarifies how to =
resolve certificate validation results that differ, but I think it would =
be helpful to include references to both Sections 6 and 7 here which =
cover issues when on there are differences in validation more =
thoroughly.
>=20
> (Roque) ok. will add.
>=20
>> 7. (nit) The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to =
-17. I didn't check other references.
>=20
> (Roque) ok.
>=20
> Thanks again,
>=20
> Roque
>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>>=20
>> On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:
>>=20
>>> In this new version we included the changes from the review by =
Arturo and several editorial nits.
>>>=20
>>> Please take a look at the document and send your comments.
>>>=20
>>> Roque.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Brian Weis
>> Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
>> Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
>> Email: bew@cisco.com
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


--=20
Brian Weis
Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
Email: bew@cisco.com






--Apple-Mail-25--764571937
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi =
Roque,<div><br><div><div>On Jul 11, 2011, at 2:29 AM, Roque Gagliano =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi =
Brian,<div><br></div><div>Thank you very much for your =
review.</div><div><br></div><div>Please see my comments =
inline.</div><div><br></div><div>Roque</div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 8, =
2011, at 9:08 PM, Brian Weis wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Hi =
Roque,<br><br>This draft seems very complete. I have just a few =
questions and comments:<br><br>1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with =
this process during an algorithm transition MUST be considered as =
non-compliance with ...<br>I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP =
where failing to comply with this process would be result in =
non-compliance. It would be hopeful to more specific =
here.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) This is good =
feedback but I think we cannot delay the publication of the CP document. =
The idea is that the Algorithm Suites definition are part of the CP, =
consequently, the process to modify these suites should also be consider =
as a global RPKI requirement and thus tied to the =
CP.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I didn't =
intend to affect the CP document. But since this statement implies that =
this document "updates" the CP, then I think the this document should =
say so at the top. I believe that was Sandy's =
point.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><div><div><br></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" =
is "A CA that issues certificates to entities not under its =
administrative control." I believe this effectively &nbsp;means "CAs =
that have children", and if that's the intended meaning perhaps that's a =
better statement. The present definition could apply to a CA =
cross-certifying another CA and other non-child certificate signing. =
Even if those situations don't expect to be possible within the RPKI, it =
would be helpful to clarify the definition. Also, it's not clear to me =
that a child CA is "under its administrative control" in the sense that =
the child CA (e.g., ISP) might not be administered by the parent (e.g., =
RIR).<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) These are the =
"CA that have children and with whom the signaling is carried out =
through the provisioning protocol".&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>What =
about changing the definition to"</div><div><br></div><div>Non-Leaf CA: =
A CA that issues certificates to external entities by using the =
provisioning protocol described in =
[PROV.].</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That's a =
good precise definition.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>3. Section =
4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, at the same =
moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" figure shows =
that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these =
reconcile?<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque)&nbsp;</div><d=
iv>I will change that, however, the milestone 5 (Twilight Date) is the =
date where the NEW becomes CURRENT and the CURRENT becomes OLD. If the =
RP and the CA did their part of the work, they should both be ready at =
that time to issue/revoke and validate certificates with both =
algorithms, so there is no "action" that should be taken =
at&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I understand =
now, but that's a subtle interpretation of "affects". It might be =
clearer to say something like "The only milestone at which both CAs and =
RPs take action at the same moment is the EOL date". (And that's a =
powerful statement, in my opinion.)</div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>4. Section 4.3. The =
alignment errors that Arturo mentioned don't seem to be fixed in -01. =
Did you mean to adjust them? Also, it might be worth stating explicitly =
in the Note following this first example that the indentation mean =
"signed =
by".<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque)</div><div>Thanks. =
I will correct and do better "quality control".</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed =
product sets MUST be available using both Algorithm Suite A and =
Algorithm Suite B." It isn't clear to me what "During this phase" means =
in Phase 2. Does it mean "By the end of this phase"? Or does it mean =
"Before the start of Phase 3", which is not the same moment in time =
according to the figures in Section 4.2. I'm inclined to think it means =
"Before the start of Phase 3", because by Phase 3 "all product sets are =
available". Although again, Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this =
phrase" so that also isn't clear and I would recommend being more =
precise here too.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) =
"During this phase" means since start to end of these phase (i.e. =
after<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"white-space: =
pre;">&nbsp;"CA Go Algorithm B date"). In Phase 2 all products are =
available using both algorithms but not all RP MUST validate them both, =
that only happens in Phase 3 (after "RP Ready Algorithm B =
Date")</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Acco=
rding to a dictionary I consulted, I note that "during" does mean =
"throughout" so the use of that word is accurate with your =
clarification. But I do think it would be clearer if "During the phase" =
was replaced with "Throughout this phase", &nbsp;"=46rom the start of =
this phase", or something that is less =
semantic.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Brian</div><br><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>6. Section 4.5. "An RP that =
validates all signed product sets using both Algorithm Suite A or =
Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD expect the same results." The text added to =
this paragraph in -01 clarifies how to resolve certificate validation =
results that differ, but I think it would be helpful to include =
references to both Sections 6 and 7 here which cover issues when on =
there are differences in validation more thoroughly.<font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#144FAE"><br></font></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>(Roque) ok. will add.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>7. (nit) =
The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to -17. I didn't =
check other =
references.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) =
ok.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks =
again,</div><div><br></div><div>Roque</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>Thanks,<br>Brian<br><br>On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 =
AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">In this new =
version we included the changes from the review by Arturo and several =
editorial nits.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Please take a =
look at the document and send your comments.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Roque.<br></blockquote><br>-- <br>Brian Weis<br>Security =
Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems<br>Telephone: +1 408 526 =
4796<br>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:bew@cisco.com">bew@cisco.com</a><br><br><br><br><br><br></d=
iv></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-monospace; font-size: 12px; =
"><br>--&nbsp;<br>Brian Weis<br>Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, =
Cisco Systems<br>Telephone: +1 408 526 4796<br>Email:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bew@cisco.com">bew@cisco.com</a></span></div><div><br></div=
></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br></div></body></html>=

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From rogaglia@cisco.com  Mon Jul 11 10:04:28 2011
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From: Roque Gagliano <rogaglia@cisco.com>
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To: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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Hi Sandra,

>>> Hi Roque,
>>>=20
>>> This draft seems very complete. I have just a few questions and =
comments:
>>>=20
>>> 1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with this process during an =
algorithm transition MUST be considered as non-compliance with ...
>>> I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP where failing to comply =
with this process would be result in non-compliance. It would be hopeful =
to more specific here.
>>=20
>> (Roque) This is good feedback but I think we cannot delay the =
publication of the CP document. The idea is that the Algorithm Suites =
definition are part of the CP, consequently, the process to modify these =
suites should also be consider as a global RPKI requirement and thus =
tied to the CP.
>>=20
>=20
> You seem to be saying that the alg transition mechanism is an addition =
to
> the global cert policy - an addendum/update of the CP (RSN an) RFC.
>=20
> True?
>=20

We could ask the CP or the Alg. document authors to add a reference =
during the  AUTH48 process. That would be an easy fix.

Roque.


> If so, that should be noted.
>=20
> --Sandy, speaking as wg chair, ceremonial vestments and badges donned
>=20
>=20
>>>=20
>>> 2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues =
certificates to entities not under its administrative control." I =
believe this effectively  means "CAs that have children", and if that's =
the intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present =
definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other =
non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to =
be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the =
definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA is "under its =
administrative control" in the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might =
not be administered by the parent (e.g., RIR).
>>=20
>> (Roque) These are the "CA that have children and with whom the =
signaling is carried out through the provisioning protocol".
>>=20
>> What about changing the definition to"
>>=20
>> Non-Leaf CA: A CA that issues certificates to external entities by =
using the provisioning protocol described in [PROV.].
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 3. Section 4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, =
at the same moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" =
figure shows that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these =
reconcile?
>>=20
>> (Roque)
>> I will change that, however, the milestone 5 (Twilight Date) is the =
date where the NEW becomes CURRENT and the CURRENT becomes OLD. If the =
RP and the CA did their part of the work, they should both be ready at =
that time to issue/revoke and validate certificates with both =
algorithms, so there is no "action" that should be taken at
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 4. Section 4.3. The alignment errors that Arturo mentioned don't =
seem to be fixed in -01. Did you mean to adjust them? Also, it might be =
worth stating explicitly in the Note following this first example that =
the indentation mean "signed by".
>>=20
>> (Roque)
>> Thanks. I will correct and do better "quality control".
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed product sets MUST be =
available using both Algorithm Suite A and Algorithm Suite B." It isn't =
clear to me what "During this phase" means in Phase 2. Does it mean "By =
the end of this phase"? Or does it mean "Before the start of Phase 3", =
which is not the same moment in time according to the figures in Section =
4.2. I'm inclined to think it means "Before the start of Phase 3", =
because by Phase 3 "all product sets are available". Although again, =
Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this phrase" so that also isn't =
clear and I would recommend being more precise here too.
>>=20
>> (Roque) "During this phase" means since start to end of these phase =
(i.e. after "CA Go Algorithm B date"). In Phase 2 all products are =
available using both algorithms but not all RP MUST validate them both, =
that only happens in Phase 3 (after "RP Ready Algorithm B Date")
>>=20
>>=20
>>> 6. Section 4.5. "An RP that validates all signed product sets using =
both Algorithm Suite A or Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD expect the same =
results." The text added to this paragraph in -01 clarifies how to =
resolve certificate validation results that differ, but I think it would =
be helpful to include references to both Sections 6 and 7 here which =
cover issues when on there are differences in validation more =
thoroughly.
>>=20
>> (Roque) ok. will add.
>>=20
>>> 7. (nit) The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to =
-17. I didn't check other references.
>>=20
>> (Roque) ok.
>>=20
>> Thanks again,
>>=20
>> Roque
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Brian
>>>=20
>>> On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> In this new version we included the changes from the review by =
Arturo and several editorial nits.
>>>>=20
>>>> Please take a look at the document and send your comments.
>>>>=20
>>>> Roque.
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Brian Weis
>>> Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
>>> Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
>>> Email: bew@cisco.com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20


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To: Brian Weis <bew@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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Hi Brian,

See inline.

On Jul 11, 2011, at 6:43 PM, Brian Weis wrote:

> Hi Roque,
>=20
> On Jul 11, 2011, at 2:29 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Brian,
>>=20
>> Thank you very much for your review.
>>=20
>> Please see my comments inline.
>>=20
>> Roque
>>=20
>> On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:08 PM, Brian Weis wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi Roque,
>>>=20
>>> This draft seems very complete. I have just a few questions and =
comments:
>>>=20
>>> 1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with this process during an =
algorithm transition MUST be considered as non-compliance with ...
>>> I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP where failing to comply =
with this process would be result in non-compliance. It would be hopeful =
to more specific here.
>>=20
>> (Roque) This is good feedback but I think we cannot delay the =
publication of the CP document. The idea is that the Algorithm Suites =
definition are part of the CP, consequently, the process to modify these =
suites should also be consider as a global RPKI requirement and thus =
tied to the CP.
>=20
> I didn't intend to affect the CP document. But since this statement =
implies that this document "updates" the CP, then I think the this =
document should say so at the top. I believe that was Sandy's point.

(Roque) I am fine with either solutions. I guess Steve may want to give =
his opinion on this point.

>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues =
certificates to entities not under its administrative control." I =
believe this effectively  means "CAs that have children", and if that's =
the intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present =
definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other =
non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to =
be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the =
definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA is "under its =
administrative control" in the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might =
not be administered by the parent (e.g., RIR).
>>=20
>> (Roque) These are the "CA that have children and with whom the =
signaling is carried out through the provisioning protocol".=20
>>=20
>> What about changing the definition to"
>>=20
>> Non-Leaf CA: A CA that issues certificates to external entities by =
using the provisioning protocol described in [PROV.].
>=20
> That's a good precise definition.

(Roque) Ok.

>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 3. Section 4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, =
at the same moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" =
figure shows that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these =
reconcile?
>>=20
>> (Roque)=20
>> I will change that, however, the milestone 5 (Twilight Date) is the =
date where the NEW becomes CURRENT and the CURRENT becomes OLD. If the =
RP and the CA did their part of the work, they should both be ready at =
that time to issue/revoke and validate certificates with both =
algorithms, so there is no "action" that should be taken at=20
>=20
> I understand now, but that's a subtle interpretation of "affects". It =
might be clearer to say something like "The only milestone at which both =
CAs and RPs take action at the same moment is the EOL date". (And that's =
a powerful statement, in my opinion.)
>=20

(Roque) Ok.

>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 4. Section 4.3. The alignment errors that Arturo mentioned don't =
seem to be fixed in -01. Did you mean to adjust them? Also, it might be =
worth stating explicitly in the Note following this first example that =
the indentation mean "signed by".
>>=20
>> (Roque)
>> Thanks. I will correct and do better "quality control".
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed product sets MUST be =
available using both Algorithm Suite A and Algorithm Suite B." It isn't =
clear to me what "During this phase" means in Phase 2. Does it mean "By =
the end of this phase"? Or does it mean "Before the start of Phase 3", =
which is not the same moment in time according to the figures in Section =
4.2. I'm inclined to think it means "Before the start of Phase 3", =
because by Phase 3 "all product sets are available". Although again, =
Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this phrase" so that also isn't =
clear and I would recommend being more precise here too.
>>=20
>> (Roque) "During this phase" means since start to end of these phase =
(i.e. after "CA Go Algorithm B date"). In Phase 2 all products are =
available using both algorithms but not all RP MUST validate them both, =
that only happens in Phase 3 (after "RP Ready Algorithm B Date")
>=20
> According to a dictionary I consulted, I note that "during" does mean =
"throughout" so the use of that word is accurate with your =
clarification. But I do think it would be clearer if "During the phase" =
was replaced with "Throughout this phase",  "=46rom the start of this =
phase", or something that is less semantic.

(Roque) Ok, I will replace for "throughout".

Roque.

> Thanks,
> Brian
>=20
>>> 6. Section 4.5. "An RP that validates all signed product sets using =
both Algorithm Suite A or Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD expect the same =
results." The text added to this paragraph in -01 clarifies how to =
resolve certificate validation results that differ, but I think it would =
be helpful to include references to both Sections 6 and 7 here which =
cover issues when on there are differences in validation more =
thoroughly.
>>=20
>> (Roque) ok. will add.
>>=20
>>> 7. (nit) The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to =
-17. I didn't check other references.
>>=20
>> (Roque) ok.
>>=20
>> Thanks again,
>>=20
>> Roque
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Brian
>>>=20
>>> On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> In this new version we included the changes from the review by =
Arturo and several editorial nits.
>>>>=20
>>>> Please take a look at the document and send your comments.
>>>>=20
>>>> Roque.
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Brian Weis
>>> Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
>>> Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
>>> Email: bew@cisco.com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Brian Weis
> Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
> Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
> Email: bew@cisco.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi =
Brian,<br><div><div><br></div><div>See =
inline.</div><div><br></div><div><div>On Jul 11, 2011, at 6:43 PM, Brian =
Weis wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi =
Roque,<div><br><div><div>On Jul 11, 2011, at 2:29 AM, Roque Gagliano =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi =
Brian,<div><br></div><div>Thank you very much for your =
review.</div><div><br></div><div>Please see my comments =
inline.</div><div><br></div><div>Roque</div><div><br><div><div>On Jul 8, =
2011, at 9:08 PM, Brian Weis wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Hi =
Roque,<br><br>This draft seems very complete. I have just a few =
questions and comments:<br><br>1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with =
this process during an algorithm transition MUST be considered as =
non-compliance with ...<br>I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP =
where failing to comply with this process would be result in =
non-compliance. It would be hopeful to more specific =
here.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) This is good =
feedback but I think we cannot delay the publication of the CP document. =
The idea is that the Algorithm Suites definition are part of the CP, =
consequently, the process to modify these suites should also be consider =
as a global RPKI requirement and thus tied to the =
CP.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I didn't =
intend to affect the CP document. But since this statement implies that =
this document "updates" the CP, then I think the this document should =
say so at the top. I believe that was Sandy's =
point.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) I =
am fine with either solutions. I guess Steve may want to give his =
opinion on this point.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>2. Section =
3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues certificates =
to entities not under its administrative control." I believe this =
effectively &nbsp;means "CAs that have children", and if that's the =
intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present =
definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other =
non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to =
be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the =
definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA is "under its =
administrative control" in the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might =
not be administered by the parent (e.g., =
RIR).<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) These are the =
"CA that have children and with whom the signaling is carried out =
through the provisioning protocol".&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>What =
about changing the definition to"</div><div><br></div><div>Non-Leaf CA: =
A CA that issues certificates to external entities by using the =
provisioning protocol described in =
[PROV.].</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That's a =
good precise =
definition.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) =
Ok.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br>3. Section =
4.2. "The only milestone that affects both CAs and RPs, at the same =
moment is the EOL date.". But the "Process for RPKI CAs" figure shows =
that two milestones are aligned: (5) and (6). How do these =
reconcile?<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque)&nbsp;</div><d=
iv>I will change that, however, the milestone 5 (Twilight Date) is the =
date where the NEW becomes CURRENT and the CURRENT becomes OLD. If the =
RP and the CA did their part of the work, they should both be ready at =
that time to issue/revoke and validate certificates with both =
algorithms, so there is no "action" that should be taken =
at&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I understand =
now, but that's a subtle interpretation of "affects". It might be =
clearer to say something like "The only milestone at which both CAs and =
RPs take action at the same moment is the EOL date". (And that's a =
powerful statement, in my =
opinion.)</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>(Roq=
ue) Ok.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>4. Section 4.3. The alignment errors that Arturo =
mentioned don't seem to be fixed in -01. Did you mean to adjust them? =
Also, it might be worth stating explicitly in the Note following this =
first example that the indentation mean "signed =
by".<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque)</div><div>Thanks. =
I will correct and do better "quality control".</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed =
product sets MUST be available using both Algorithm Suite A and =
Algorithm Suite B." It isn't clear to me what "During this phase" means =
in Phase 2. Does it mean "By the end of this phase"? Or does it mean =
"Before the start of Phase 3", which is not the same moment in time =
according to the figures in Section 4.2. I'm inclined to think it means =
"Before the start of Phase 3", because by Phase 3 "all product sets are =
available". Although again, Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this =
phrase" so that also isn't clear and I would recommend being more =
precise here too.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) =
"During this phase" means since start to end of these phase (i.e. =
after<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"white-space: =
pre;">&nbsp;"CA Go Algorithm B date"). In Phase 2 all products are =
available using both algorithms but not all RP MUST validate them both, =
that only happens in Phase 3 (after "RP Ready Algorithm B =
Date")</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Acco=
rding to a dictionary I consulted, I note that "during" does mean =
"throughout" so the use of that word is accurate with your =
clarification. But I do think it would be clearer if "During the phase" =
was replaced with "Throughout this phase", &nbsp;"=46rom the start of =
this phase", or something that is less =
semantic.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) =
Ok, I will replace for =
"throughout".</div><div><br></div><div>Roque.</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Brian</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>6. Section 4.5. "An RP that validates all signed =
product sets using both Algorithm Suite A or Algorithm Suite B, SHOULD =
expect the same results." The text added to this paragraph in -01 =
clarifies how to resolve certificate validation results that differ, but =
I think it would be helpful to include references to both Sections 6 and =
7 here which cover issues when on there are differences in validation =
more thoroughly.<font class=3D"Apple-style-span"><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#144FAE"><br></font></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>(Roque) ok. will add.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>7. (nit) =
The references for I-D.ietf-sidr-cp didn't get updated to -17. I didn't =
check other =
references.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(Roque) =
ok.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks =
again,</div><div><br></div><div>Roque</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br>Thanks,<br>Brian<br><br>On Jul 8, 2011, at 9:14 =
AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">In this new =
version we included the changes from the review by Arturo and several =
editorial nits.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Please take a =
look at the document and send your comments.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">Roque.<br></blockquote><br>-- <br>Brian Weis<br>Security =
Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems<br>Telephone: +1 408 526 =
4796<br>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:bew@cisco.com">bew@cisco.com</a><br><br><br><br><br><br></d=
iv></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-monospace; font-size: 12px; =
"><br>--&nbsp;<br>Brian Weis<br>Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, =
Cisco Systems<br>Telephone: +1 408 526 4796<br>Email:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bew@cisco.com">bew@cisco.com</a></span></div><div><br></div=
></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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From kent@bbn.com  Mon Jul 11 10:27:14 2011
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Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 13:17:22 -0400
To: Brian Weis <bew@cisco.com>
From: Stephen Kent <kent@bbn.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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At 12:08 PM -0700 7/8/11, Brian Weis wrote:
>Hi Roque,
>
>This draft seems very complete. I have just a few questions and comments:
>
>1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with this process during an 
>algorithm transition MUST be considered as non-compliance with ...
>I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP where failing to comply 
>with this process would be result in non-compliance. It would be 
>hopeful to more specific here.

Agreed. The CP cites the alg spec (draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-algs). 
However, this doc say that the alg specs doc will be updated to 
reflect the new alg suite, and to include the timeline for the alg 
transition. Once that happens, a failure to comply with the alg 
transition procedure described here will imply noncompliance with the 
CP.


>2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues 
>certificates to entities not under its administrative control." I 
>believe this effectively  means "CAs that have children", and if 
>that's the intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The 
>present definition could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA 
>and other non-child certificate signing. Even if those situations 
>don't expect to be possible within the RPKI, it would be helpful to 
>clarify the definition. Also, it's not clear to me that a child CA 
>is "under its administrative control" in the sense that the child CA 
>(e.g., ISP) might not be administered by the parent (e.g., RIR).

There is no cross-certification (in the common, but incorrect, use of 
the term) in the RPKI, because of the constraints imposed by the 3779 
extensions. Still, I agree that the definition could be improved. How 
about:

Non-leaf CA: A CA that issues certs to other CAs in a non-leaf CA. In 
contrast, a leaf CA is a CA that issues only EE certs.

>...
>
>
>5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed product sets MUST be 
>available using both Algorithm Suite A and Algorithm Suite B." It 
>isn't clear to me what "During this phase" means in Phase 2. Does it 
>mean "By the end of this phase"? Or does it mean "Before the start 
>of Phase 3", which is not the same moment in time according to the 
>figures in Section 4.2. I'm inclined to think it means "Before the 
>start of Phase 3", because by Phase 3 "all product sets are 
>available". Although again, Section 4.6 uses the phrase "During this 
>phrase" so that also isn't clear and I would recommend being more 
>precise here too.

Yes, it would be more accurate to say "at the start of Phase 2, all 
signed products ..."

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Mon Jul 11 10:44:10 2011
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From: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
To: Stephen Kent <kent@bbn.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2011, Stephen Kent wrote:

> At 12:08 PM -0700 7/8/11, Brian Weis wrote:
>> Hi Roque,
>> 
>> This draft seems very complete. I have just a few questions and comments:
>> 
>> 1. Section 2. "A failure to comply with this process during an algorithm 
>> transition MUST be considered as non-compliance with ...
>> I-D.ietf-sidr-cp". I can't detect in the CP where failing to comply with 
>> this process would be result in non-compliance. It would be hopeful to more 
>> specific here.
>
> Agreed. The CP cites the alg spec (draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-algs). However, this 
> doc say that the alg specs doc will be updated to reflect the new alg suite, 
> and to include the timeline for the alg transition. Once that happens, a 
> failure to comply with the alg transition procedure described here will imply 
> noncompliance with the CP.

S---T---R---E---T---C---H???

If the non-compliance with this draft was to fail to update the algs 
document, then the failure to comply with the procedure would not imply 
non-compliance with the CP.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair



>
>
>> 2. Section 3. The definition of a "Non-Leaf CA" is "A CA that issues 
>> certificates to entities not under its administrative control." I believe 
>> this effectively  means "CAs that have children", and if that's the 
>> intended meaning perhaps that's a better statement. The present definition 
>> could apply to a CA cross-certifying another CA and other non-child 
>> certificate signing. Even if those situations don't expect to be possible 
>> within the RPKI, it would be helpful to clarify the definition. Also, it's 
>> not clear to me that a child CA is "under its administrative control" in 
>> the sense that the child CA (e.g., ISP) might not be administered by the 
>> parent (e.g., RIR).
>
> There is no cross-certification (in the common, but incorrect, use of the 
> term) in the RPKI, because of the constraints imposed by the 3779 extensions. 
> Still, I agree that the definition could be improved. How about:
>
> Non-leaf CA: A CA that issues certs to other CAs in a non-leaf CA. In 
> contrast, a leaf CA is a CA that issues only EE certs.
>
>> ...
>> 
>> 
>> 5. Section 4.5. "During this phase all signed product sets MUST be 
>> available using both Algorithm Suite A and Algorithm Suite B." It isn't 
>> clear to me what "During this phase" means in Phase 2. Does it mean "By the 
>> end of this phase"? Or does it mean "Before the start of Phase 3", which is 
>> not the same moment in time according to the figures in Section 4.2. I'm 
>> inclined to think it means "Before the start of Phase 3", because by Phase 
>> 3 "all product sets are available". Although again, Section 4.6 uses the 
>> phrase "During this phrase" so that also isn't clear and I would recommend 
>> being more precise here too.
>
> Yes, it would be more accurate to say "at the start of Phase 2, all signed 
> products ..."
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

From kent@bbn.com  Mon Jul 11 11:06:17 2011
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Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:05:51 -0400
To: Roque Gagliano <rogaglia@cisco.com>
From: Stephen Kent <kent@bbn.com>
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At 11:29 AM +0200 7/11/11, Roque Gagliano wrote:
>...
>(Roque) These are the "CA that have children and with whom the 
>signaling is carried out through the provisioning protocol".
>
>What about changing the definition to"
>
>Non-Leaf CA: A CA that issues certificates to external entities by 
>using the provisioning protocol described in [PROV.].

I disagree with Brian here.  the prov protocol is one way to have certs issued,
but it is not the only way, e.g., see the managed CA services offered by most
of the RIRs.  I'd prefer the definition I suggested in my (belated) 
reply to Brian's message.

Steve

From bew@cisco.com  Mon Jul 11 12:14:28 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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On Jul 11, 2011, at 11:05 AM, Stephen Kent wrote:

> At 11:29 AM +0200 7/11/11, Roque Gagliano wrote:
>> ...
>> (Roque) These are the "CA that have children and with whom the =
signaling is carried out through the provisioning protocol".
>>=20
>> What about changing the definition to"
>>=20
>> Non-Leaf CA: A CA that issues certificates to external entities by =
using the provisioning protocol described in [PROV.].
>=20
> I disagree with Brian here.  the prov protocol is one way to have =
certs issued,
> but it is not the only way, e.g., see the managed CA services offered =
by most
> of the RIRs.  I'd prefer the definition I suggested in my (belated) =
reply to Brian's message.

I agree that Steve's definition is clearer.

Thanks,
Brian

>=20
> Steve


--=20
Brian Weis
Security Standards and Technology, SRTG, Cisco Systems
Telephone: +1 408 526 4796
Email: bew@cisco.com






From kent@bbn.com  Mon Jul 11 13:33:26 2011
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Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:46:53 -0400
To: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
From: Stephen Kent <kent@bbn.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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At 1:44 PM -0400 7/11/11, Sandra Murphy wrote:
>>>...
>>
>>Agreed. The CP cites the alg spec (draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-algs). 
>>However, this doc say that the alg specs doc will be updated to 
>>reflect the new alg suite, and to include the timeline for the alg 
>>transition. Once that happens, a failure to comply with the alg 
>>transition procedure described here will imply noncompliance with 
>>the CP.
>
>S---T---R---E---T---C---H???
>
>If the non-compliance with this draft was to fail to update the algs 
>document, then the failure to comply with the procedure would not 
>imply non-compliance with the CP.
>
>--Sandy, speaking as wg chair

Sandy,

But stretching is the usual pre-exercise warm up, and the transition to a
new alg suite will be an exercise, so ... :-).

Stated less circuitously, the CP currently mandates support for the algs
in the Alg Spec. These algs used to be in the CP, but it was decided to
move them into a separate doc, to avoid the need ti change the CP when the
algs change. An early version of the alg transition doc called for updating
the CP to reflect alg transition. But, we moved the algs spec to a separate
doc, so the alg transition now cals for the alg spec to be replaced with
a new doc that calls out the new algs and provides the transition timeline.

We have gone down the path of document modularization and 
indirection, this is where we wound up!

Steve

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jul 11 13:46:40 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-keyroll-08.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : CA Key Rollover in the RPKI
	Author(s)       : Geoff Huston
                          George Michaelson
                          Stephen Kent
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-keyroll-08.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2011-07-11

   This document describes how a Certification Authority (CA) in the
   Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) performs a planned rollover
   of its key pair.  This document also notes the implications of this
   key rollover procedure for Relying Parties (RPs).  In general, RPs
   are expected to maintain a local cache of the objects that have been
   published in the RPKI repository, and thus the way in which a CA
   performs key rollover impacts RPs.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-keyroll-08.txt

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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
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From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Mon Jul 11 14:29:58 2011
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2011, Stephen Kent wrote:

> At 1:44 PM -0400 7/11/11, Sandra Murphy wrote:
>>>> ...
>>> 
>>> Agreed. The CP cites the alg spec (draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-algs). However, 
>>> this doc say that the alg specs doc will be updated to reflect the new alg 
>>> suite, and to include the timeline for the alg transition. Once that 
>>> happens, a failure to comply with the alg transition procedure described 
>>> here will imply noncompliance with the CP.
>> 
>> S---T---R---E---T---C---H???
>> 
>> If the non-compliance with this draft was to fail to update the algs 
>> document, then the failure to comply with the procedure would not imply 
>> non-compliance with the CP.
>> 
>> --Sandy, speaking as wg chair
>
> Sandy,
>
> But stretching is the usual pre-exercise warm up, and the transition to a
> new alg suite will be an exercise, so ... :-).
>

Yes, especially when the exercise involves significant muscle movement, 
and alg transition involves significant movement of the brain muscle, 
so...  :-)

> Stated less circuitously, the CP currently mandates support for the algs
> in the Alg Spec. These algs used to be in the CP, but it was decided to
> move them into a separate doc, to avoid the need ti change the CP when the
> algs change. An early version of the alg transition doc called for updating
> the CP to reflect alg transition. But, we moved the algs spec to a separate
> doc, so the alg transition now cals for the alg spec to be replaced with
> a new doc that calls out the new algs and provides the transition timeline.
>
> We have gone down the path of document modularization and indirection, this 
> is where we wound up!

I understand the reasoning (I can stretch that far).

But the desired outcome is for any violation of the transition procedure 
to violate the CP.  Right?

As you said, this follows from the first step of the procedure, which is 
to update the alg document with the transition timeline, thereby 
indirectly updating the CP with the transition.  Subsequent violation of 
the transition procedure would therefore violate the CP.

But if the violation of the transition procedure is to fall at the first 
hurdle - to fail to update the alg document with the transition timeline, 
then any subsequent violation of the procedure would no longer violate the 
CP, even indirectly.

Right?

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair.


>
> Steve
>

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Jul 11 14:52:19 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-pfx-validate-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : BGP Prefix Origin Validation
	Author(s)       : Pradosh Mohapatra
                          John Scudder
                          David Ward
                          Randy Bush
                          Rob Austein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-pfx-validate-02.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2011-07-11

   To help reduce well-known threats against BGP including prefix mis-
   announcing and monkey-in-the-middle attacks, one of the security
   requirements is the ability to validate the origination AS of BGP
   routes.  More specifically, one needs to validate that the AS number
   claiming to originate an address prefix (as derived from the AS_PATH
   attribute of the BGP route) is in fact authorized by the prefix
   holder to do so.  This document describes a simple validation
   mechanism to partially satisfy this requirement.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:03:49 -0400
To: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-01.txt
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>>...
>
>I understand the reasoning (I can stretch that far).
>
>But the desired outcome is for any violation of the transition 
>procedure to violate the CP.  Right?

agreed.

>As you said, this follows from the first step of the procedure, 
>which is to update the alg document with the transition timeline, 
>thereby indirectly updating the CP with the transition.  Subsequent 
>violation of the transition procedure would therefore violate the CP.

right.

>But if the violation of the transition procedure is to fall at the 
>first hurdle - to fail to update the alg document with the 
>transition timeline, then any subsequent violation of the procedure 
>would no longer violate the CP, even indirectly.
>
>Right?

yes, but that is a procedural hurdle that, presumably, is within the 
purview of the WG and the IESG. So I didn't think it belonged in the 
doc. But, we both agree that a more explicit statement of how this 
doc relates to the CP is needed.

Steve

From pmohapat@cisco.com  Mon Jul 11 16:19:57 2011
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FYI... This version addresses comments from Geoff (put a reference to =
ietf-sidr-origin-ops + some word-smithing). Would appreciate another =
review.

- Pradosh

> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-pfx-validate-02.txt



From randy@psg.com  Mon Jul 11 23:25:07 2011
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of course i could pick nits, but it looks ok to me.

randy

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Tue Jul 12 15:10:30 2011
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Subject: [sidr] reminder on requests for agenda slots
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A reminder that working group agendas are due tomorrow at 1700 PT.  If 
you are thinking of requesting an agenda slot, it would be good to get 
that to the chairs soon.

Final agendas are due Monday at 1700 PT.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair

From randy@psg.com  Tue Jul 12 17:08:05 2011
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steve kent has been beating me up that a lot of documents normatively
reference draft-ietf-sidr-iana-objects-03.txt, which in turn references
draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt.  i.e. my draft is holding dinner
up.

so please review draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt.

and could the chairs provide incentive for review by doing a wglc?

thanks

randy

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Wed Jul 13 16:35:14 2011
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Subject: [sidr] WG LC for draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt
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The chairs have received a request from the authors for a WG Last Call for 
"The RPKI Ghostbusters Record", draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.

The document and the draft version history are available at: 
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sidr/draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters

The Last Call will end Wed, 3 Aug 2011 (AOE).  This is three weeks instead 
of the usual two, because the IETF week will occupy people's time and 
attention.

As usual, please address all comments to the WG mailing list, and please 
be clear in your comments to this last call if you are supporting the 
document's submission to the IESG or if you are opposed. If you are 
opposed, please indicate why.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair, with wg chair snood on


From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Thu Jul 14 07:22:37 2011
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Cc: Andrew de la Haye <andrew@ripe.net>
Subject: [sidr] discussion of RPKI procedure for transfer of resources
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As I noted in my message of 9 Jun, various RIRs are discussing and 
implementing transfer of resources.

The procedure for accomplishing transfer of resources in the RPKI has not 
yet been discussed in this wg.

I believe it would be good to ensure that the RPKI design accommodates 
the transfer of resources, as it looks like it is going to happen.

I have reserved time to discuss this at the next meeting.  There has been 
one post on the list of a discussion paper of transfer wrt the RPKI. 
(See http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02947.html.) 
That paper predates some of the considerations of the current design, so 
it may not be a complete answer.

Anyone who has ideas in this area is invited to come prepared to present 
or discuss.  If you think you would like to present, please let the chairs 
know.

I particularly invite the RIRs to join in this discussion.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair






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To: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] WG LC for draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt
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I've read this document and support moving it forward.

Make sure to ask Stewart to send an email to the mailing list 
ietf-types@ietf.org asking for comments on the Media Type section of 
your specification.

spt

On 7/13/11 7:35 PM, Sandra Murphy wrote:
>
> The chairs have received a request from the authors for a WG Last Call
> for "The RPKI Ghostbusters Record", draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.
>
> The document and the draft version history are available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sidr/draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters
>
> The Last Call will end Wed, 3 Aug 2011 (AOE). This is three weeks
> instead of the usual two, because the IETF week will occupy people's
> time and attention.
>
> As usual, please address all comments to the WG mailing list, and please
> be clear in your comments to this last call if you are supporting the
> document's submission to the IESG or if you are opposed. If you are
> opposed, please indicate why.
>
> --Sandy, speaking as wg chair, with wg chair snood on
>
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

From paul.hoffman@vpnc.org  Thu Jul 14 09:54:15 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] WG LC for draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.txt
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I have read the document and think it would be a useful standard. In =
specific, wearing my very dusty vCard-supporter hat, the constrained =
profile for vCard seems quite appropriate.

--Paul Hoffman


From terry.manderson@icann.org  Thu Jul 14 19:00:26 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>, sidr wg list <sidr@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 19:00:22 -0700
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Have read -06 and I think (generally) it is fine to progress with a tiny
personal nit.

I did wonder as I was reading the document if the object is optional or
mandatory in the repository structure? For example if I create a ROA, MUST =
I
create a Ghostbusters record. I can certainly see that for healthy NOC
operation, a Ghostbusters record is a really nice thing to have for allowin=
g
others to contact you. Perhaps a sentence or two clarifying this.

This might also then help the relying parties in terms of their validation
workload. (not that the workload is high or anything) Can they happily
discard or delay the validation of the Ghostbusters record if the so choose=
?

Cheers
Terry


On 14/07/11 9:35 AM, "Sandra Murphy" <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> The chairs have received a request from the authors for a WG Last Call fo=
r
> "The RPKI Ghostbusters Record", draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters-06.
>=20
> The document and the draft version history are available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sidr/draft-ietf-sidr-ghostbusters
>=20
> The Last Call will end Wed, 3 Aug 2011 (AOE).  This is three weeks instea=
d
> of the usual two, because the IETF week will occupy people's time and
> attention.
>=20
> As usual, please address all comments to the WG mailing list, and please
> be clear in your comments to this last call if you are supporting the
> document's submission to the IESG or if you are opposed. If you are
> opposed, please indicate why.
>=20
> --Sandy, speaking as wg chair, with wg chair snood on
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr


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Cc: draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org, "sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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SIDR WG,

During IESG review the there was a preference for
draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to be Standards Track
rather than BCP.

Making this change does not require a new IETF LC.

I want to get sense of whether the WG would be OK
with this change of track.

If anyone has a reason not to change to Standards
Track, please let me know by 29th July.

Thanks

Stewart



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At 8:53 PM +0100 7/15/11, Stewart Bryant wrote:
>SIDR WG,
>
>During IESG review the there was a preference for
>draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to be Standards Track
>rather than BCP.
>
>Making this change does not require a new IETF LC.
>
>I want to get sense of whether the WG would be OK
>with this change of track.
>
>If anyone has a reason not to change to Standards
>Track, please let me know by 29th July.
>
>Thanks
>
>Stewart

I'm comfortable with standard (instead of BCP).

Steve

From gih@apnic.net  Sat Jul 16 18:33:46 2011
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On 16/07/2011, at 5:53 AM, Stewart Bryant wrote:

> SIDR WG,
>=20
> During IESG review the there was a preference for
> draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to be Standards Track
> rather than BCP.
>=20
> Making this change does not require a new IETF LC.
>=20
> I want to get sense of whether the WG would be OK
> with this change of track.
>=20
> If anyone has a reason not to change to Standards
> Track, please let me know by 29th July.

The draft is ambivalent - it has a bunch of standards-type normative =
terms of MUSTs and SHOULDs, yet the introduction states that these are =
just recommendations.=20

As far as I understand it, as long as a CA conformed to the res-cert =
profile draft and related standards track specs, the CA can do pretty =
much whatever it wants in terms of the structure of their repository =
publication point and a cautious Relying Party would still be able to =
synchronise with it. So as far as I can see the draft is logically a BCP =
in so far as it is saying "this is good practice for a CA in terms of =
management of its publication point" and, quite properly, the drtaft =
falls short of saying "this is a necessary set of constraints that are =
necessary for interoperability."=20

I suspect that either way the draft should be edited. If it were to be =
standards track the introductory text that refers to recommendations =
should be altered to say that this is a mandatory part of the =
specification of a CA's publication (but in such a case I do not believe =
that there is clear technical justification for such a restriction), and =
if it were left as a BCP then it would be more consistent if the use of =
normative terms were to be excised from the draft.

Personally I feel that Standards Track is using a sledge hammer to crack =
a nut - I think its overkill and has no clear technical justification in =
my view.

Geoff=20=

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From: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>
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This draft defines the mappings from filename extension (.cer, .roa,
.crl, etc) to ASN.1 object type (X.509 certificate, ROA, CRL, etc).

Without this mapping, relying party tools have no way of knowing what
they're looking at in most cases, and would have to attempt to decode
every object in various ways to see which (if any) worked.  This would
be tedious, error prone, and generally a bad idea.

For this reason, I think the document that defines the filename
mappings should be Standards Track; at present, that's this document,
so I agree with the change of track.

From gih@apnic.net  Sun Jul 17 14:41:49 2011
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On 18/07/2011, at 12:53 AM, Rob Austein wrote:

> This draft defines the mappings from filename extension (.cer, .roa,
> .crl, etc) to ASN.1 object type (X.509 certificate, ROA, CRL, etc).
>=20
> Without this mapping, relying party tools have no way of knowing what
> they're looking at in most cases, and would have to attempt to decode
> every object in various ways to see which (if any) worked.  This would
> be tedious, error prone, and generally a bad idea.

But wouldn't the CMS (and ASN.1 for that matter) effectively tell the RP =
what the object was intended to be? It strikes me that the file name =
extension is a bit of syntactic sugar rather than an essential and =
necessary component, so I'm curious to understand what has changed in =
this particular PKI that makes the filename extension such a necessary =
attribute. If this is the case would a rogue CA be able to mount an =
effective DOS attack for all RPs by deliberately mis-naming objects?=20

Geoff


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At Mon, 18 Jul 2011 07:41:40 +1000, Geoff Huston wrote:
> On 18/07/2011, at 12:53 AM, Rob Austein wrote:
> 
> But wouldn't the CMS (and ASN.1 for that matter) effectively tell
> the RP what the object was intended to be?

As I said: "attempt to decode every object in various ways to see
which (if any) worked".  Not all objects are CMS.  The outermost
layers of ASN.1 on most of them are sequences of sequences of blah
blah blah.  Yes, if one peers at these things long enough it becomes
obvious what they are, assuming no encoding errors, but it's not like
there's a trivial tag in each one saying "this an X.509 certificate",
"this is a CMS object", or "this is a CRL".

> It strikes me that the file name extension is a bit of syntactic
> sugar rather than an essential and necessary component, so I'm
> curious to understand what has changed in this particular PKI that
> makes the filename extension such a necessary attribute.

Most PKIs aren't deep trees distributed over an arbitrarily large
number of distinct servers and directories, in most cases one knows
exactly what an object purports to be when one attempts to validate
it, and in most cases one is not attempting to validate tens of
thousands of objects at once.

> If this is the case would a rogue CA be able to mount an effective
> DOS attack for all RPs by deliberately mis-naming objects?

No.  The names are hints as to the intended decoding.  If the encoding
doesn't match the hint, the decode fails pretty quickly.  The
difference here is that the RP tries exactly one decode, and if that
doesn't work, the object is toast.

A MITM attack on rsync could of course whack the filenames, but it
could also corrupt the objects themselves, with pretty much the same
effect, so it's not a new threat.

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Sun Jul 17 16:42:54 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: "stbryant@cisco.com" <stbryant@cisco.com>, "sidr@ietf.org" <sidr@ietf.org>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 16:42:51 -0700
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Hi Stewart,

I'm struggling to see how draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct could exist as a
Standards Track document without a significant rewrite and then passing bac=
k
through both WG and IETF last calls.

The document at this stage is structured as a _recommendation_ to RPKI
participants on one particular RPKI naming scheme.

While I think that having the files in the RPKI have particular extensions
helps relying parties decode the structure, I'm not convinced that turning
that into a standards action is a healthy option.

At this stage I feel more comfortable leaving it as BCP.

Cheers
Terry


On 16/07/11 5:53 AM, "Stewart Bryant" <stbryant@cisco.com> wrote:

> SIDR WG,
>=20
> During IESG review the there was a preference for
> draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to be Standards Track
> rather than BCP.
>=20
> Making this change does not require a new IETF LC.
>=20
> I want to get sense of whether the WG would be OK
> with this change of track.
>=20
> If anyone has a reason not to change to Standards
> Track, please let me know by 29th July.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Stewart
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr


From terry.manderson@icann.org  Sun Jul 17 16:42:57 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>, Stewart Bryant <stbryant@cisco.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 16:42:54 -0700
Thread-Topic: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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On 18/07/11 12:53 AM, "Rob Austein" <sra@isc.org> wrote:

> This draft defines the mappings from filename extension (.cer, .roa,
> .crl, etc) to ASN.1 object type (X.509 certificate, ROA, CRL, etc).
>=20
> Without this mapping, relying party tools have no way of knowing what
> they're looking at in most cases, and would have to attempt to decode
> every object in various ways to see which (if any) worked.  This would
> be tedious, error prone, and generally a bad idea.
>=20

This actually makes me wonder why the manifest (
draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests) in:

FileAndHash ::=3D     SEQUENCE {
      file            IA5String,
      hash            BIT STRING
      }

Doesn't have a RPKIObjectIdentifier that tells the relying party what the
object it has just retrieved is in terms of ROA/CERT/etc, as a signed
attestation.

(and then an appropriate IANA registry for RPKIObjectIdentifier could then
be created and populated as a standards track)

If repos-struct was standards track and the naming scheme was the prime
mapping system then if a RPKI repository publication [1] point is
compromised (or even MiTM!) it would be a trivial exercise to perform some
substitutions on the filename to confuse (routing security downgrade DoS)
the relying party.

[1] Remember that the publication point is _just_ an rsync server (at this
stage).

Cheers
Terry


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On 18/07/2011, at 9:42 AM, Terry Manderson wrote:

>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 18/07/11 12:53 AM, "Rob Austein" <sra@isc.org> wrote:
>=20
>> This draft defines the mappings from filename extension (.cer, .roa,
>> .crl, etc) to ASN.1 object type (X.509 certificate, ROA, CRL, etc).
>>=20
>> Without this mapping, relying party tools have no way of knowing what
>> they're looking at in most cases, and would have to attempt to decode
>> every object in various ways to see which (if any) worked.  This =
would
>> be tedious, error prone, and generally a bad idea.
>>=20
>=20
> This actually makes me wonder why the manifest (
> draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests) in:
>=20
> FileAndHash ::=3D     SEQUENCE {
>      file            IA5String,
>      hash            BIT STRING
>      }
>=20
> Doesn't have a RPKIObjectIdentifier that tells the relying party what =
the
> object it has just retrieved is in terms of ROA/CERT/etc, as a signed
> attestation.


I don't have an answer - it's a good question.

>=20
> (and then an appropriate IANA registry for RPKIObjectIdentifier could =
then
> be created and populated as a standards track)
>=20
> If repos-struct was standards track and the naming scheme was the =
prime
> mapping system then if a RPKI repository publication [1] point is
> compromised (or even MiTM!) it would be a trivial exercise to perform =
some
> substitutions on the filename to confuse (routing security downgrade =
DoS)
> the relying party.
>=20
> [1] Remember that the publication point is _just_ an rsync server (at =
this
> stage).

I personally feel uncomfortable on standardising a naming scheme from =
the dim dark prehistory of mainframe filesystems  as an intrinsic part =
of the RPKI - it seems so retrograde! I thought a BCP represented a =
slightly softer approach, but your question about the manifest contents =
and type flagging in there is an interesting approach. At one stage =
there was the though that the manifest would be optional for a CA, but =
somewhere along the path I think they were made mandatory, but in the =
forest of SIDR drafts I have no idea which one says that manifests are =
REQUIRED.

  Geoff=

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At 7:41 AM +1000 7/18/11, Geoff Huston wrote:
>On 18/07/2011, at 12:53 AM, Rob Austein wrote:
>
>>  This draft defines the mappings from filename extension (.cer, .roa,
>>  .crl, etc) to ASN.1 object type (X.509 certificate, ROA, CRL, etc).
>>
>>  Without this mapping, relying party tools have no way of knowing what
>>  they're looking at in most cases, and would have to attempt to decode
>>  every object in various ways to see which (if any) worked.  This would
>>  be tedious, error prone, and generally a bad idea.
>
>But wouldn't the CMS (and ASN.1 for that matter) effectively tell 
>the RP what the object was intended to be? It strikes me that the 
>file name extension is a bit of syntactic sugar rather than an 
>essential and necessary component, so I'm curious to understand what 
>has changed in this particular PKI that makes the filename extension 
>such a necessary attribute. If this is the case would a rogue CA be 
>able to mount an effective DOS attack for all RPs by deliberately 
>mis-naming objects?

If youy want to compare the RPKI to the general PKI repository model 
(X.500), note that in an X.500 directory, every object is tagged in a 
fashion analogous to the filename extension. LDAP tags objects as 
well. So why is it not appropriate to do so, in a normative fashion 
here?

Steve

From kent@bbn.com  Sun Jul 17 19:45:01 2011
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At 4:42 PM -0700 7/17/11, Terry Manderson wrote:
>...
>
>This actually makes me wonder why the manifest (
>draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests) in:
>
>FileAndHash ::=     SEQUENCE {
>       file            IA5String,
>       hash            BIT STRING
>       }
>
>Doesn't have a RPKIObjectIdentifier that tells the relying party what the
>object it has just retrieved is in terms of ROA/CERT/etc, as a signed
>attestation.

the filename extension, which is part of the "file" data type above, 
conveys the needed info. yes, one could add an OID here, but 
ultimately an RP will check the syntax and know which file is what 
type. Som, adding an OID doesn't seem to help much in a manifest.

>(and then an appropriate IANA registry for RPKIObjectIdentifier could then
>be created and populated as a standards track)
>
>If repos-struct was standards track and the naming scheme was the prime
>mapping system then if a RPKI repository publication [1] point is
>compromised (or even MiTM!) it would be a trivial exercise to perform some
>substitutions on the filename to confuse (routing security downgrade DoS)
>the relying party.

if there are no mandated filename extensions, then every pub point is 
a mini-DoS attack, as Rob noted. We can't prevent a rogue pub point 
manager (or CA) from mislabelling files relative to the 3-char 
extension, but why invite chaos :-)?

An earlier draft of this doc called the extensions mere 
recommendations.  I persuaded Geoff to make them mandatory. The 
arguments I made then still
apply, which is why STD vs. BCP seems appropriate, to me.

Steve

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On 18/07/2011, at 12:32 PM, Stephen Kent wrote:

> At 7:41 AM +1000 7/18/11, Geoff Huston wrote:
>> On 18/07/2011, at 12:53 AM, Rob Austein wrote:
>>=20
>>> This draft defines the mappings from filename extension (.cer, .roa,
>>> .crl, etc) to ASN.1 object type (X.509 certificate, ROA, CRL, etc).
>>>=20
>>> Without this mapping, relying party tools have no way of knowing =
what
>>> they're looking at in most cases, and would have to attempt to =
decode
>>> every object in various ways to see which (if any) worked.  This =
would
>>> be tedious, error prone, and generally a bad idea.
>>=20
>> But wouldn't the CMS (and ASN.1 for that matter) effectively tell the =
RP what the object was intended to be? It strikes me that the file name =
extension is a bit of syntactic sugar rather than an essential and =
necessary component, so I'm curious to understand what has changed in =
this particular PKI that makes the filename extension such a necessary =
attribute. If this is the case would a rogue CA be able to mount an =
effective DOS attack for all RPs by deliberately mis-naming objects?
>=20
> If youy want to compare the RPKI to the general PKI repository model =
(X.500), note that in an X.500 directory, every object is tagged in a =
fashion analogous to the filename extension. LDAP tags objects as well. =
So why is it not appropriate to do so, in a normative fashion here?


How is this X.500 directory "tagging" achieved in other PKIs? Three =
letter filename extension conventions? Or some other tag mechanism?







From terry.manderson@icann.org  Sun Jul 17 20:30:08 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net>
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On 18/07/11 11:29 AM, "Geoff Huston" <gih@apnic.net> wrote:

> On 18/07/2011, at 9:42 AM, Terry Manderson wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> This actually makes me wonder why the manifest (
>> draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-manifests) in:
>>=20
>> FileAndHash ::=3D     SEQUENCE {
>>      file            IA5String,
>>      hash            BIT STRING
>>      }
>>=20
>> Doesn't have a RPKIObjectIdentifier that tells the relying party what th=
e
>> object it has just retrieved is in terms of ROA/CERT/etc, as a signed
>> attestation.
>=20
>=20
> I don't have an answer - it's a good question.
>

Certainly one to consider, and touches more on my personal philosophical
point that while the 'directory and file' structure that is promulgated in
the RPKI work at this stage has utility, primarily based on 'what works now=
'
design choices - longer term I am far more comfortable in thinking toward a=
n
object structure.

whereas now we see RSYNC://rpki.blah.org/something/xyzzy.roa one day in the
future when it is palatable to think along such lines something like
HTTPS://rpki.blah.org/something/subject?ROA might also validly exist.

<climbs down from soapbox>
=20
>=20
> I personally feel uncomfortable on standardising a naming scheme from the=
 dim
> dark prehistory of mainframe filesystems  as an intrinsic part of the RPK=
I -
> it seems so retrograde! I thought a BCP represented a slightly softer
> approach, but your question about the manifest contents and type flagging=
 in
> there is an interesting approach. At one stage there was the though that =
the
> manifest would be optional for a CA, but somewhere along the path I think=
 they
> were made mandatory, but in the forest of SIDR drafts I have no idea whic=
h one
> says that manifests are REQUIRED.

I believe draft-ietf-sidr-res-certs section 4.8.8.1.

"This extension MUST have an instance of an AccessDescription with an
   accessMethod of id-ad-rpkiManifest"

Terry


From terry.manderson@icann.org  Sun Jul 17 20:50:24 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
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On 18/07/11 12:32 PM, "Stephen Kent" <kent@bbn.com> wrote:

>> But wouldn't the CMS (and ASN.1 for that matter) effectively tell
>> the RP what the object was intended to be? It strikes me that the
>> file name extension is a bit of syntactic sugar rather than an
>> essential and necessary component, so I'm curious to understand what
>> has changed in this particular PKI that makes the filename extension
>> such a necessary attribute. If this is the case would a rogue CA be
>> able to mount an effective DOS attack for all RPs by deliberately
>> mis-naming objects?
>=20
> If youy want to compare the RPKI to the general PKI repository model
> (X.500), note that in an X.500 directory, every object is tagged in a
> fashion analogous to the filename extension. LDAP tags objects as
> well. So why is it not appropriate to do so, in a normative fashion
> here?
>=20

>From what little I know about LDAP/X.500 directories, the tagging is driven
from the DIT. Surely that is more analogous to the RPKI manifest than a
filename based extension. Or am I missing your point or some key
example/information?

I'm happy to see things tagged in a normative fashion, I just think putting
the eggs into the filename/directory basket as a standards action is
worrying.

Cheers
Terry


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On 18/07/11 12:42 PM, "Stephen Kent" <kent@bbn.com> wrote:

> At 4:42 PM -0700 7/17/11, Terry Manderson wrote:
>=20
> the filename extension, which is part of the "file" data type above,
> conveys the needed info. yes, one could add an OID here, but
> ultimately an RP will check the syntax and know which file is what
> type. Som, adding an OID doesn't seem to help much in a manifest.

So, I'm confused.. if the RP ultimately checks the syntax, why is tagging
needed at all?

>=20
> if there are no mandated filename extensions, then every pub point is
> a mini-DoS attack, as Rob noted. We can't prevent a rogue pub point
> manager (or CA) from mislabelling files relative to the 3-char
> extension, but why invite chaos :-)?

Right, so its a processing issue.

So through the hierarchy (loosely speaking TA points to CA, CA points to
Rescert, Rescert points to publication point and manifest) the lesser of th=
e
chaos scenarios would be to put the 'labeling' in the highest possible
location within the publication point. I'm guessing the most sane is the
Manifest, if it is truly a standards action requirement.

As the manifest is a signed object, it has the benefit of being tightly
interpreted as an attestation by the issuer that this 'file' with a
specified hash is a ROA. How much clearer do you need to be? or want to be?

>=20
> An earlier draft of this doc called the extensions mere
> recommendations.  I persuaded Geoff to make them mandatory. The
> arguments I made then still
> apply, which is why STD vs. BCP seems appropriate, to me.
>=20

Were those arguments made on list? if so I will go hunting and reflect on
them with a Merlot in hand this evening.

Terry


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> If youy want to compare the RPKI to the general PKI repository model 
> (X.500), note that in an X.500 directory, every object is tagged in a 
> fashion analogous to the filename extension. LDAP tags objects as 
> well. So why is it not appropriate to do so, in a normative fashion 
> here?

it is appropriate.  imiho, those should be MUSTs.

randy

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> So, I'm confused.. if the RP ultimately checks the syntax, why is tagging
> needed at all?

think tlv.  that's the t

randy

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Hi,

On Jul 17, 2011, at 4:53 PM, Rob Austein wrote:
> This draft defines the mappings from filename extension (.cer, .roa,
> .crl, etc) to ASN.1 object type (X.509 certificate, ROA, CRL, etc).
>=20
> Without this mapping, relying party tools have no way of knowing what
> they're looking at in most cases, and would have to attempt to decode
> every object in various ways to see which (if any) worked.  This would
> be tedious, error prone, and generally a bad idea.
>=20
> For this reason, I think the document that defines the filename
> mappings should be Standards Track; at present, that's this document,
> so I agree with the change of track.

+1

I agree that not having this mapping is tedious and error prone for RPs.

Example:
- ROA that isn't strictly standard compliant / validator has bug in ROA =
recognition

Validator tries to parse as roa, cer, crl, mft; then gives up...

This is not only ugly code to maintain, it also makes it difficult to =
debug problems. The happy flow case, while cumbersome, is not the =
biggest problem here I think..

How do we work out, in this example, what caused the actual problem? =
=46rom the software side it's rather involved to build something like: =
this looks 99% like I ROA, one I don't understand, but it's probably =
what they meant or something like that... so our tool just says: I don't =
understand this *object*.

If we do have the mapping the validator can give a far more informed =
error message. For starters it can say: "I don't understand this =
*ROA*.". But also, since it knows it should be a ROA it can report why =
it rejected it as a ROA. If we had no clues about the intent we would =
also have to tell the users why we rejected it as any other object.. The =
less noise we produce here the easier it will be for RPs and publishers =
to work out where the real problem is and fix it.

Whether this mapping strictly needs to be in this draft may be another =
question.


Regards,


Tim Bruijnzeels

Implementing stuff @RIPE NCC=

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Mon Jul 18 18:57:39 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: Tim Bruijnzeels <tim@ripe.net>, Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2011 18:57:34 -0700
Thread-Topic: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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On 18/07/11 9:39 PM, "Tim Bruijnzeels" <tim@ripe.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
> I agree that not having this mapping is tedious and error prone for RPs.

I can agree that a mapping system is useful. It may just be that living uni=
x
world for far too long has seen me move away from the mandatory dos-like
suffixes to the voluntary use of extensions in a unix file system as a
*hint* to the file contents and nothing more.

And I'm happy to see it written as a hint. A validated mapping should come,
in my opinion from something more robust which also transcends the
technology used in the repository.

>=20
> Example:
> - ROA that isn't strictly standard compliant / validator has bug in ROA
> recognition
>=20
> Validator tries to parse as roa, cer, crl, mft; then gives up...
>=20

So the validator has a bug. fix the validator?

> This is not only ugly code to maintain, it also makes it difficult to deb=
ug
> problems. The happy flow case, while cumbersome, is not the biggest probl=
em
> here I think..
>=20
> How do we work out, in this example, what caused the actual problem? From=
 the
> software side it's rather involved to build something like: this looks 99=
%
> like I ROA, one I don't understand, but it's probably what they meant or
> something like that... so our tool just says: I don't understand this
> *object*.
>=20

Same goes for a misname (malicious or otherwise) of the file. A robust
mechanism as I see it doesn't live in three letter extensions.

>=20
> Whether this mapping strictly needs to be in this draft may be another
> question.
>=20

Agree with that point.

Cheers
Terry


From randy@psg.com  Mon Jul 18 21:23:42 2011
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> And I'm happy to see it written as a hint. A validated mapping should
> come, in my opinion from something more robust which also transcends
> the technology used in the repository.

easy.  throw away the entire structure and code to date and do it as a
collection of tlvs.

i suspect no one else wants to go there, at least no one with code in
the game.

randy

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Mon Jul 18 21:37:16 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
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On 19/07/11 2:23 PM, "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> wrote:

>> And I'm happy to see it written as a hint. A validated mapping should
>> come, in my opinion from something more robust which also transcends
>> the technology used in the repository.
>=20
> easy.  throw away the entire structure and code to date and do it as a
> collection of tlvs.

I think there is an easier way, as already suggested. Add the object type t=
o
the manifest in FileandHash.

1) the rescert points to the publication point and manifest
2) the manifest is mandatory
3) the manifest is signed
4) the manifest is nicely(?) readable ASN.1

Really its a much nicer and more robust solution than either throwing the
entire structure out or using filename extensions to 'mandate' file/object
content.

Then if hints, for human readable reasons, are still required then maintain
the extensions as they are as a BCP.

>=20
> i suspect no one else wants to go there, at least no one with code in
> the game.

Really... that is a shame. I always thought that coders wanted to make thei=
r
code less susceptible to adverse external influence.

T.


From randy@psg.com  Tue Jul 19 04:16:02 2011
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> I think there is an easier way, as already suggested. Add the object
> type to the manifest in FileandHash.
> 
> 1) the rescert points to the publication point and manifest
> 2) the manifest is mandatory
> 3) the manifest is signed
> 4) the manifest is nicely(?) readable ASN.1

so move the deck chairs from coding the type in a directory maintained
by the operating system to one the spec and the programmers write and
maintain?  big win there, eh?

> Really its a much nicer and more robust solution than either throwing the
> entire structure out or using filename extensions to 'mandate' file/object
> content.

we've a long tradition of using the file name extensions, formalities
for registering them, ...  do we really need to reinvent the wheel?
where is the win?

>> i suspect no one else wants to go there, at least no one with code in
>> the game.
> Really... that is a shame. I always thought that coders wanted to make
> their code less susceptible to adverse external influence.

luckily for me, i do not have to think.  they already supported the move
from bcp to ps on this very list.

a principal goal of this little ietf thing is interoperability.  the
iesg noted we were being a little weak in ensuring interoperability in a
spec that has already been written, coded multiple times, mildly
deployed, approved by the wg, gone through ietf last call, and passed by
the iesg.

for this to be changed now is not impossible.  it just needs some really
solid reasoning and really solid documentation of how and why it should
be changed.

randy

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Tue Jul 19 05:51:53 2011
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On 19/07/11 9:15 PM, "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> wrote:

>> I think there is an easier way, as already suggested. Add the object
>> type to the manifest in FileandHash.
>>=20
>> 1) the rescert points to the publication point and manifest
>> 2) the manifest is mandatory
>> 3) the manifest is signed
>> 4) the manifest is nicely(?) readable ASN.1
>=20
> so move the deck chairs from coding the type in a directory maintained
> by the operating system to one the spec and the programmers write and
> maintain?  big win there, eh?

The win is to eliminate a threat that has already been identified on the
list.

Is that not worthwhile?

Perhaps consider it from a view of security requirement, than coding ease.

>=20
>> Really its a much nicer and more robust solution than either throwing th=
e
>> entire structure out or using filename extensions to 'mandate' file/obje=
ct
>> content.
>=20
> we've a long tradition of using the file name extensions, formalities
> for registering them, ...  do we really need to reinvent the wheel?
> where is the win?
>

In the case of a repository system that may over time represent some worth,
and looking at this from a point of eventually operating such a repository
high up in the tree I have a concern of injecting 2 more paragraphs of text
into a organisational risk analysis that could raise eyebrows given a simpl=
e
solution to an identified threat has been proposed.

I can tell now I'll be answering "What the!?!" type questions from people
with significantly more influence than I for weeks, if not months. :(

>>> i suspect no one else wants to go there, at least no one with code in
>>> the game.
>> Really... that is a shame. I always thought that coders wanted to make
>> their code less susceptible to adverse external influence.
>=20
> luckily for me, i do not have to think.  they already supported the move
> from bcp to ps on this very list.

And I can only hope they rethink their position.

>=20
> for this to be changed now is not impossible.  it just needs some really
> solid reasoning and really solid documentation of how and why it should
> be changed.
>=20

So both Steve and Rob identified that mapping is required to remove a mini
DoS threat (and I'm fine with that). Geoff and I have the belief that a
mapping based on the extension exposes a CA/Repository related threat given
the objects are supposed to be secure in nature. The suggestion of adding
the mapping/type into the Manifest (while awkward in ietf processing) gives
both the mapping result, and removes the CA/Repository threat identified.

What other documentation are you looking for?

If it helps, I can also propose the ASN.1 substitution for the manifest and
the necessary paragraph for the IANA considerations section.

Cheers
Terry


From sra@hactrn.net  Tue Jul 19 06:59:59 2011
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From: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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At Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:51:50 -0700, Terry Manderson wrote:
> 
> The win is to eliminate a threat that has already been identified on the
> list.

What threat?  Please describe it.

The only "threat" I saw discussed is, in my opinion, a non-issue: an
attacker can mangle filenames in the unprotected data stream, thus
causing objects to fail validation.  An attacker who can do that can
also mangle the objects themselves in the unprotected data stream,
which will also cause the objects to fail validation, so being able to
change the filenames doesn't give the attacker anything new.

> The suggestion of adding the mapping/type into the Manifest (while
> awkward in ietf processing) gives both the mapping result, and
> removes the CA/Repository threat identified.

The file types are already in the manifest, because the file types are
encoded in the filenames, which are in the manifest.

From tim@ripe.net  Tue Jul 19 07:25:34 2011
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Cc: draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org, sidr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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On Jul 19, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Rob Austein wrote:

> At Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:51:50 -0700, Terry Manderson wrote:
>>=20
>> The win is to eliminate a threat that has already been identified on =
the
>> list.
>=20
> What threat?  Please describe it.
>=20
> The only "threat" I saw discussed is, in my opinion, a non-issue: an
> attacker can mangle filenames in the unprotected data stream, thus
> causing objects to fail validation.  An attacker who can do that can
> also mangle the objects themselves in the unprotected data stream,
> which will also cause the objects to fail validation, so being able to
> change the filenames doesn't give the attacker anything new.
>=20
>> The suggestion of adding the mapping/type into the Manifest (while
>> awkward in ietf processing) gives both the mapping result, and
>> removes the CA/Repository threat identified.
>=20
> The file types are already in the manifest, because the file types are
> encoded in the filenames, which are in the manifest.

and to add to this:
Objects may appear in the repository but not on the manifest (manifest =
doc 8.5).
So having the type as a field in the manifest does not help.

I am sorry if I am oversimplifying or missing the point but my =
impression is that:
- some people don't like file extension mapping for reasons that are not =
technically convincing to me.
- other people say that having them will actually make it much easier to =
solve problems between RPs and publishers.

Like I said I am happy to have this mapping as a standard elsewhere if =
the repos-struct draft has other stuff in it preventing this from going =
to standards track.

And if we can't have standard I suppose we will just =
trial-error-parse-it-all and say 'Can't understand your "object"', =
instead of something useful...

Regards,

Tim=

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Tue Jul 19 07:37:52 2011
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Cc: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>, draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org, sidr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Tim Bruijnzeels wrote:

>
> On Jul 19, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Rob Austein wrote:
>
>> At Tue, 19 Jul 2011 05:51:50 -0700, Terry Manderson wrote:
>>>
>>> The win is to eliminate a threat that has already been identified on the
>>> list.
>>
>> What threat?  Please describe it.
>>
>> The only "threat" I saw discussed is, in my opinion, a non-issue: an
>> attacker can mangle filenames in the unprotected data stream, thus
>> causing objects to fail validation.  An attacker who can do that can
>> also mangle the objects themselves in the unprotected data stream,
>> which will also cause the objects to fail validation, so being able to
>> change the filenames doesn't give the attacker anything new.
>>
>>> The suggestion of adding the mapping/type into the Manifest (while
>>> awkward in ietf processing) gives both the mapping result, and
>>> removes the CA/Repository threat identified.
>>
>> The file types are already in the manifest, because the file types are
>> encoded in the filenames, which are in the manifest.
>
> and to add to this:
> Objects may appear in the repository but not on the manifest (manifest doc 8.5).
> So having the type as a field in the manifest does not help.
>
> I am sorry if I am oversimplifying or missing the point but my impression is that:
> - some people don't like file extension mapping for reasons that are not technically convincing to me.
> - other people say that having them will actually make it much easier to solve problems between RPs and publishers.
>
> Like I said I am happy to have this mapping as a standard elsewhere if the repos-struct draft has other stuff in it preventing this from going to standards track.


A process reminder here.  Several other documents point to the 
repos-struct draft, some of them specifically regarding the file 
extensions.  Separating out the tagging into a separate document could 
mean some serious review of multiple documents.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair



>
> And if we can't have standard I suppose we will just trial-error-parse-it-all and say 'Can't understand your "object"', instead of something useful...
>


> Regards,
>
> Tim
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Tue Jul 19 07:44:39 2011
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On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Terry Manderson wrote:

>
> On 19/07/11 9:15 PM, "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
>>> I think there is an easier way, as already suggested. Add the object
>>> type to the manifest in FileandHash.
>>>
>>> 1) the rescert points to the publication point and manifest
>>> 2) the manifest is mandatory
>>> 3) the manifest is signed
>>> 4) the manifest is nicely(?) readable ASN.1
>>
>> so move the deck chairs from coding the type in a directory maintained
>> by the operating system to one the spec and the programmers write and
>> maintain?  big win there, eh?
>
> The win is to eliminate a threat that has already been identified on the
> list.

I see that someone else has already responded to this statement, but I'd 
like to chime in that I'd like to see an explicit statement of the threat 
and how the OID mechanism you suggest would counter it.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair


From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Tue Jul 19 08:02:50 2011
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On Mon, 18 Jul 2011, Terry Manderson wrote:

>
> On 18/07/11 9:39 PM, "Tim Bruijnzeels" <tim@ripe.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I agree that not having this mapping is tedious and error prone for RPs.
>
> I can agree that a mapping system is useful. It may just be that living unix
> world for far too long has seen me move away from the mandatory dos-like
> suffixes to the voluntary use of extensions in a unix file system as a
> *hint* to the file contents and nothing more.
>
> And I'm happy to see it written as a hint. A validated mapping should come,
> in my opinion from something more robust which also transcends the
> technology used in the repository.
>


There was a brief discussion of the use of file names extensions when the 
repos-struct document came up for last call.  See the following messages:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02281.html
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02282.html
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02283.html
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02284.html

To summarize: George Michaelson spoke against extensions when we were 
considering a registry (and Terry mildly supports them), I asked George if 
he as author was suggesting the draft needed to change and he said no and 
added that rsync can filter objects only on the basis of the file name.

So we've been around this barn already.

The point about the rsync filtering abilities has not come up this time.

I ask for review and consideration of that exchange (and the registry 
discussion context).

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair


From randy@psg.com  Tue Jul 19 08:48:22 2011
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>>> I think there is an easier way, as already suggested. Add the object
>>> type to the manifest in FileandHash.
>>> 
>>> 1) the rescert points to the publication point and manifest
>>> 2) the manifest is mandatory
>>> 3) the manifest is signed
>>> 4) the manifest is nicely(?) readable ASN.1
>> 
>> so move the deck chairs from coding the type in a directory maintained
>> by the operating system to one the spec and the programmers write and
>> maintain?  big win there, eh?
> 
> The win is to eliminate a threat that has already been identified on the
> list.

and is based on a weak premise.  rpki security is based on object, not
transport, security.  stuff might be garbled in transport.

and please remember that the manifest may be a proper subset of the
directory.

randy

From iesg-secretary@ietf.org  Tue Jul 19 10:12:00 2011
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Subject: [sidr] Protocol Action: 'CA Key Rollover in the RPKI' to BCP	(draft-ietf-sidr-keyroll-08.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'CA Key Rollover in the RPKI'
  (draft-ietf-sidr-keyroll-08.txt) as a BCP

This document is the product of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working
Group.

The IESG contact persons are Stewart Bryant and Adrian Farrel.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sidr-keyroll/




Technical Summary

This document describes how a Certification Authority (CA) in the
Resource Public Key Infrastructure (RPKI) performs a planned rollover
of its key pair. This document also notes the implications of this
key rollover procedure for Relying Parties (RPs). In general, RPs are
expected to maintain a local cache of the objects that have been
published in the RPKI repository, and thus the way in which a CA
performs key rollover impacts RPs.

Working Group Summary

The most contentious issue in the progress of this draft was an
issue raised shortly after the wglc ended.  The issue was discussed
vigorously on the list (between a small number of members) and a
change in requirements level was made, but that did not totally
answer the original commenter.  There was broad support for the
draft during the wglc and consensus was not reached on the technical
change suggested in this last discussion, so the document was progressed
with the compromise requirement change only.  The member bringing the
issue to the list is resigned to the outcome.


Document Quality
 
This is another case in this working group in which a section of
a document of long standing has been lifted out to be a draft of
its own.  This draft had been a topic in the res-certs profile
and was extracted when the working group was asked by the security
ADs to provide a plan for algorithm agility and key rollover.  As
such it has had the benefit of a long history of reviews of the
parent document.

Personnel

Sandra Murphy (Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com) is the Document Shepherd 
for this document.  
Stewart Bryant (stbryant@cisco.com) is the Responsible Area Director.




From terry.manderson@icann.org  Tue Jul 19 13:40:50 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 13:40:47 -0700
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On 19/07/11 11:59 PM, "Rob Austein" <sra@isc.org> wrote:

>=20
> What threat?  Please describe it.
>=20
> The only "threat" I saw discussed is, in my opinion, a non-issue: an
> attacker can mangle filenames in the unprotected data stream, thus
> causing objects to fail validation.  An attacker who can do that can
> also mangle the objects themselves in the unprotected data stream,
> which will also cause the objects to fail validation, so being able to
> change the filenames doesn't give the attacker anything new.

I see those two as having a subtle difference. I guess I'm alone in that
observation.

>=20
>> The suggestion of adding the mapping/type into the Manifest (while
>> awkward in ietf processing) gives both the mapping result, and
>> removes the CA/Repository threat identified.
>=20
> The file types are already in the manifest, because the file types are
> encoded in the filenames, which are in the manifest.

ok. So in which case before I give in to making repos-struct a PS, I would
want to see words somewhere that say that the validation choice for an RPKI
object file is to based on the filename in the manifest and not on the
transferred filename. Do such words already exist? If so, where? And is tha=
t
how validation implementations are already coded?

For some reason all I can think about with this extensions discussion is th=
e
.txt.vbs windows worm exploit.. its all just so 1990's..

T.


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> ok. So in which case before I give in to making repos-struct a PS, I would
> want to see words somewhere that say that the validation choice for an RPKI
> object file is to based on the filename in the manifest and not on the
> transferred filename.

again, the manifest may represent a proper subset of the valid objects in the
directory

randy

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Tue Jul 19 13:45:54 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
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>=20
>=20
> A process reminder here.  Several other documents point to the
> repos-struct draft, some of them specifically regarding the file
> extensions.  Separating out the tagging into a separate document could
> mean some serious review of multiple documents.
>=20

I think the question might be if the authors of repos-struct are willing to
rewrite parts (slabs?) of the document to be more in line with a PS?

As it stands now, I not so sure that repo-struct is structured as a ps,
despite many people's willingness to see it become that.

'Just because you drive a mini like a race car, doesn't actually mean it is
a race car."

T.


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On Thu, 9 Jun 2011 17:59:58 -0700
Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org> wrote:

> This document reflects the feedback from Prague both in the WG and
> around the halls, being:

Hi Terry,

I know you sought some additional feedback via way of a shared
colleague, I'm posting my thoughts here for the entire group to see and
for posterity sake.

Firstly, thanks for writing up a draft.  Regardless of any draft's
merit and eventual outcome, recording it and having the ensuing
discussion into the annals of Internet history is rarely a bad idea.

> 1) Use cases? who wants this.

I'll assume that you're looking for more use cases beyond those you had
envisioned when deciding to write it up.  Otherwise, this is a solution
looking for a problem.

In the draft it is suggested there may be a use case for this
information by Network Providers, Content Providers, Security
Providers, Geo-Location (GEO) IP services and Research.  I'll consider
those cases below.    There may be geopolitical reasons for this as
well.  DNS resolver operators may be interested in this like they are
with the draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip proposal.  One of the main
themes of my critique however will be that routing data does not
reliably associate itself to geo-location.

The title has:

  "first class geographical location statements"

The abstract has:

  "first class informational statements pertaining to the geographical
  attributes"

The introduction has:

  "first class informational attestations pertaining to the
  geographical attributes"

Some consistency is needed, but perhaps I'm confused because I don't
know what "first class" means in this context and I couldn't find it in
the references.

Instead of "validatable" I'd say "verifiable".

In section 2, the specification suggests network providers can
configure geoloc attributes for the benefit of content providers.
This reasoning assumes cooperation between network and content
providers.  That may be assuming too much.

It is not clear from the draft if the anycast operators will benefit
from publishing geoloc information or if receiving it from other network
operators is of value.  Either could be potentially useful.

As a general comment, IP addresses are inherently virtual and all
attempts to tie them to a physical geographic location will be
imperfect.  All sorts of mobility, tunneling, subnetting and ephemeral
address issues are not likely to go away.  This leads me to believe
that this work will be doomed from the start with some strict control
on what goes into the system, something that the Internet community is
not inherently good at mandating.

In my opinion, having done some security work, it's not clear this
would add much if any value for security providers unless it was widely
implemented and implemented in a uniform manner.  Neither seems likely
unless it was followed up with some more stringent requirements from
entities in charge of allocating the numbers.

This geoloc information may also compete or duplicate that provided when
the numbers are allocated and assigned.  That may or may not be helpful.

As has already been mentioned, this effort is not aligned to the
goals of the charter for sidr.  Adding more features to a system is
tempting, but this is probably not the place or time for it.  This is
trying to address a current operational problem by bolting on a new
feature to a new system in hopes of addressing current problems with
future solutions.  I empathize with the motivation and would be
potentially interested in such a feature, but I recommend other tactics
and venues for this sort of effort.

John

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Tue Jul 19 14:03:20 2011
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To: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:03:18 -0700
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On 20/07/11 1:02 AM, "Sandra Murphy" <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com> wrote:

>=20
> There was a brief discussion of the use of file names extensions when the
> repos-struct document came up for last call.  See the following messages:
>=20
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02281.html
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02282.html
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02283.html
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02284.html
>=20
> To summarize: George Michaelson spoke against extensions when we were
> considering a registry (and Terry mildly supports them), I asked George i=
f

What I said was "and hint nicely". So happy to see it as the hint. That
hasn't changed, and create a registry if you so desire. I'm still not
comfortable in leading to a point where it is the
way (and it seems only way) an objects validation regime is chosen.

Rob's observation that the extension exists in the manifest file name is a
close approximation provided words exist as highlighted which gives clear
instruction to implementers as to
1) make the first approximation of validation regime on the filename in the
_manifest_
2) then try all others
3) give up.

T.


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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
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On 20/07/11 6:43 AM, "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> wrote:

>> ok. So in which case before I give in to making repos-struct a PS, I wou=
ld
>> want to see words somewhere that say that the validation choice for an R=
PKI
>> object file is to based on the filename in the manifest and not on the
>> transferred filename.
>=20
> again, the manifest may represent a proper subset of the valid objects in=
 the
> directory
>=20

Which I think is sloppy behaviour.

T.


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On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Terry Manderson wrote:

> On 20/07/11 1:02 AM, "Sandra Murphy" <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> There was a brief discussion of the use of file names extensions when the
>> repos-struct document came up for last call.  See the following messages:
>>
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02281.html
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02282.html
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02283.html
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/sidr/current/msg02284.html
>>
>> To summarize: George Michaelson spoke against extensions when we were
>> considering a registry (and Terry mildly supports them), I asked George if
>
> What I said was "and hint nicely". So happy to see it as the hint. That

That's the "mildly" part.  George was speaking against file extensions at 
all, you said they had "special meaning" and were in favor of a registry.

--Sandy, explaining a former message sent when speaking as wg chair

> hasn't changed, and create a registry if you so desire. I'm still not
> comfortable in leading to a point where it is the
> way (and it seems only way) an objects validation regime is chosen.
>
> Rob's observation that the extension exists in the manifest file name is a
> close approximation provided words exist as highlighted which gives clear
> instruction to implementers as to
> 1) make the first approximation of validation regime on the filename in the
> _manifest_
> 2) then try all others
> 3) give up.
>
> T.
>
>

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Tue Jul 19 14:29:34 2011
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On Tue, 19 Jul 2011, Terry Manderson wrote:

> On 20/07/11 6:43 AM, "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
>>> ok. So in which case before I give in to making repos-struct a PS, I would
>>> want to see words somewhere that say that the validation choice for an RPKI
>>> object file is to based on the filename in the manifest and not on the
>>> transferred filename.
>>
>> again, the manifest may represent a proper subset of the valid objects in the
>> directory
>>
>
> Which I think is sloppy behaviour.

It is a fundamental part of the proposed repository structure.

The following text from section 2.2 of the repos-struct draft:

    The RPKI design requires that a CA be uniquely associated with a
    single key pair.  Thus, the administrative entity that is a CA
    performs key rollover by generating a new CA certificate with a new
    Subject name, as well as a new key pair [I-D.ietf-sidr-keyroll].
    (The reason for the new Subject name is that in the context of the
    RPKI the Subject names in all certificates issued by a CA are
    intended to be unique, and because the RPKI key rollover procedure
    creates a new instance of a CA with the new key, the name constraint
    implies the need for a new Subject name for the CA with the new key.)
    In such cases the entity SHOULD continue to use the same repository
    publication point for both CA instances during the key rollover,
    ensuring that the value of the AIA extension in indirect subordinate
    objects that refer to the certificates issued by this CA remain valid
    across the key rollover, and that the re-issuance of subordinate
    certificates in a key rollover is limited to the collection of
    immediate subordinate products of this CA.  In such cases the
    repository publication point will contain the CRL, manifest and
    subordinate certificates of both CA instances.

says that in times of CA key rollover, the publication point directory 
should contain two manifests and all the files from both manifests.  So 
neither manifest contains all the files names in the directory.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair



>
> T.
>
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Tue Jul 19 15:07:35 2011
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On 20/07/11 7:29 AM, "Sandra Murphy" <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com> wrote:


>>=20
>> Which I think is sloppy behaviour.
>=20
> It is a fundamental part of the proposed repository structure.
>
[..]=20
> says that in times of CA key rollover, the publication point directory
> should contain two manifests and all the files from both manifests.  So
> neither manifest contains all the files names in the directory.
>=20

So long as a file appears in at least one manifest, I'm good.

Randy's email lead me to think that a file (valid rpki object) can exist in
a repository and not appear in a manifest at all. Is that the case?

Cheers
Terry


From terry.manderson@icann.org  Tue Jul 19 16:11:57 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: John Kristoff <jtk@cymru.com>
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Hi John,

Thanks for taking the time to review the draft and post your thoughts.

On 20/07/11 7:00 AM, "John Kristoff" <jtk@cymru.com> wrote:


>> 1) Use cases? who wants this.
>=20
> I'll assume that you're looking for more use cases beyond those you had
> envisioned when deciding to write it up.  Otherwise, this is a solution
> looking for a problem.
>

Actually the use cases existed, I didn't divulge them at the time as I
didn't have the blessing of those who expressed their desires. At the time =
I
only had authority in my own desires to promote.
=20
> In the draft it is suggested there may be a use case for this
> information by Network Providers, Content Providers, Security
> Providers, Geo-Location (GEO) IP services and Research.  I'll consider
> those cases below.    There may be geopolitical reasons for this as
> well.  DNS resolver operators may be interested in this like they are
> with the draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip proposal.  One of the main
> themes of my critique however will be that routing data does not
> reliably associate itself to geo-location.

Why do you think that? from watching routing tables I see that there really
isn't that much AS churn. This leads me to think people really don't move
their routers, or routes that often unless doing some level of mobility or
targeted anycast.

>=20
> The title has:
>=20
>   "first class geographical location statements"
>=20
> The abstract has:
>=20
>   "first class informational statements pertaining to the geographical
>   attributes"
>=20
> The introduction has:
>=20
>   "first class informational attestations pertaining to the
>   geographical attributes"
>=20
> Some consistency is needed, but perhaps I'm confused because I don't
> know what "first class" means in this context and I couldn't find it in
> the references.

noted. will fix.

>=20
> Instead of "validatable" I'd say "verifiable".
>=20
> In section 2, the specification suggests network providers can
> configure geoloc attributes for the benefit of content providers.
> This reasoning assumes cooperation between network and content
> providers.  That may be assuming too much.

Fair observation.

>=20
> It is not clear from the draft if the anycast operators will benefit
> from publishing geoloc information or if receiving it from other network
> operators is of value.  Either could be potentially useful.

I will clarify.

>=20
> As a general comment, IP addresses are inherently virtual and all
> attempts to tie them to a physical geographic location will be
> imperfect.  All sorts of mobility, tunneling, subnetting and ephemeral
> address issues are not likely to go away.  This leads me to believe
> that this work will be doomed from the start with some strict control
> on what goes into the system, something that the Internet community is
> not inherently good at mandating.

I think there are a number of ways that information can be populated and
maintained. The first, as you clearly state, is through some mandated model=
.
I'm not a fan of creating oligopolies, so that hints at a model more closel=
y
related to crowd sourcing.

Do keep in mind that the HELD service is separated from the RPKI, so HELD
service operators might find better ways to authoritatively represent the
location of use of prefixes and ASNs.

>=20
> In my opinion, having done some security work, it's not clear this
> would add much if any value for security providers unless it was widely
> implemented and implemented in a uniform manner.  Neither seems likely
> unless it was followed up with some more stringent requirements from
> entities in charge of allocating the numbers.

Interesting observation.

>=20
> This geoloc information may also compete or duplicate that provided when
> the numbers are allocated and assigned.  That may or may not be helpful.

I think some clarifiying words are needed that highlight that the geoloc
information is where the resources are put into 'use' versus the location o=
f
the ISO code location of the company that they were allocated to as we see
in whois.

>=20
> As has already been mentioned, this effort is not aligned to the
> goals of the charter for sidr.

Yes, acknowledged.

> Adding more features to a system is
> tempting, but this is probably not the place or time for it.

Indeed it is tempting, A global hierarchy of well formed, well maintained
information about use of ASNs and Prefixes.. Without wanting to turn it int=
o
the quagmire of whois some level of extension would be desirable.

> This is
> trying to address a current operational problem by bolting on a new
> feature to a new system in hopes of addressing current problems with
> future solutions.

And I think that hits the nail on the head. The RPKI work really is yet to
show maturity.

> I empathize with the motivation and would be
> potentially interested in such a feature, but I recommend other tactics
> and venues for this sort of effort.
>=20

I'll drop you a note off list. Although I'm considering reclassifying this
draft as experimental.

Cheers
Terry


From terry.manderson@icann.org  Tue Jul 19 22:44:32 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
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All,

So it seems that the RPKI repository as it stands has the notion of a
mandatory entry in the resource certificate pointing to a manifest.

The existence of the manifest is intended, but doesn't seem to be mandated,
that is the absence of a manifest is left to the relying party make a
decision on the use of the objects remaining at the publication point
(Section 6.2: all objects SHOULD be considered suspect but may be used).

So thinking about this further, and using the example from sidr-usecases.
'5.2.  Only Some Children Participate in RPKI'

The resulting ROAs issued are:

      Org A.
      +----------------------------------------------+
      | asID     | address           | maxLength     |
      +----------------------------------------------+
      | 64496    | 10.1.0.0/16       |    20         |
      +----------------------------------------------+

      Org A issues for Org B.
      +----------------------------------------------+
      | asID     | address           | maxLength     |
      +----------------------------------------------+
      | 64511    | 10.1.16.0/20      |    20         |
      +----------------------------------------------+

      Org C.
      +----------------------------------------------+
      | asID     | address           | maxLength     |
      +----------------------------------------------+
      | 65535    | 10.1.32.0/20      |    20         |
      +----------------------------------------------+

I think it's sane to assume that the Org A RPKI objects are placed on the
same repository server at the same publication point.

Lets pretend that either the repository is compromised or a MiTM event
occurs which removes the existence of the manifest at the publication point
and the ROA issued by org A for org B (the second one):

      Org A issues for Org B.
      +----------------------------------------------+
      | asID     | address           | maxLength     |
      +----------------------------------------------+
      | 64511    | 10.1.16.0/20      |    20         |
      +----------------------------------------------+


As I read the existing drafts, a relying party MAY still use the other
objects. Further my reading suggests that the route corresponding to this
object will then be considered invalid (roa-validation and pfx-validate)
meaning that this is a targeted DoS attack on Org B which will succeed for
all relying parties affected. Eg resulting in BGP_PFXV_STATE_INVALID.

Am I correct in this interpretation, and if not. why? What have I missed?

Why is this not a potential attack on org B? Considering also that there ar=
e
quite a number of real world 'sub-suballocated' (provider assigned if you
like) prefix originations. (See
http://stats.research.icann.org/bgp/cidr-map/origin-map.bgp.20110605.1800.h=
t
ml, please excuse the currency of the data, I had a cron issue and I just
noticed it)

I concede that this is an unintended state, but I find the possibility of
this being played out somewhat concerning as it seems possible to still use
remaining objects from a very suspicious repository point. I'm actually
hoping that I have misinterpreted something and such an attack is not
possible.

Cheers
Terry




From kent@bbn.com  Wed Jul 20 08:35:41 2011
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>...
>
>I'm happy to see things tagged in a normative fashion, I just think putting
>the eggs into the filename/directory basket as a standards action is
>worrying.
>
>Cheers
>Terry

Since we're using basic file systems for the repository (e.g., vs. 
LDAP), I think file names are an obvious candidate for labeling the 
object types in an easy fashion, for an RP's initial processing. 
Ultimately, an RP will check
the OID for each object and verify the signature on each object (for 
the critical, signed objects). But with the file name extension we 
allow an RP to rely on that top level declaration by a CA, and then 
see if that declaration holds up when more detailed checks are made.

Steve

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At 9:08 PM -0700 7/17/11, Terry Manderson wrote:
>On 18/07/11 12:42 PM, "Stephen Kent" <kent@bbn.com> wrote:
>
>>  At 4:42 PM -0700 7/17/11, Terry Manderson wrote:
>>
>>  the filename extension, which is part of the "file" data type above,
>>  conveys the needed info. yes, one could add an OID here, but
>>  ultimately an RP will check the syntax and know which file is what
>>  type. Som, adding an OID doesn't seem to help much in a manifest.
>
>So, I'm confused.. if the RP ultimately checks the syntax, why is tagging
>needed at all?

see my reply to you message (now in flight :-)).

>  > if there are no mandated filename extensions, then every pub point is
>  > a mini-DoS attack, as Rob noted. We can't prevent a rogue pub point
>>  manager (or CA) from mislabelling files relative to the 3-char
>>  extension, but why invite chaos :-)?
>
>Right, so its a processing issue.

yes.

>So through the hierarchy (loosely speaking TA points to CA, CA points to
>Rescert, Rescert points to publication point and manifest) the lesser of the
>chaos scenarios would be to put the 'labeling' in the highest possible
>location within the publication point. I'm guessing the most sane is the
>Manifest, if it is truly a standards action requirement.
>
>As the manifest is a signed object, it has the benefit of being tightly
>interpreted as an attestation by the issuer that this 'file' with a
>specified hash is a ROA. How much clearer do you need to be? or want to be?

yes, publication of a manifest is mandatory. But, if you read the 
manifest spec closely, especially the error case discussion, you'll 
see that RPs are encouraged to accept objects that do not appear on a 
manifest, under certain circumstances. Thus, if we were to rely 
exclusively on the manifest contents to direct RP processing we would 
degrade the functionality  currently specified.

>
>  > An earlier draft of this doc called the extensions mere
>  > recommendations.  I persuaded Geoff to make them mandatory. The
>>  arguments I made then still
>>  apply, which is why STD vs. BCP seems appropriate, to me.
>>
>
>Were those arguments made on list? if so I will go hunting and reflect on
>them with a Merlot in hand this evening.

I don't recall. I may have sent them directly to Geoff.

Steve

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At Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:03:18 -0700, Terry Manderson wrote:
> 
> Rob's observation that the extension exists in the manifest file name is a
> close approximation provided words exist as highlighted which gives clear
> instruction to implementers as to
> 1) make the first approximation of validation regime on the filename in the
> _manifest_
> 2) then try all others
> 3) give up.

Sorry, wrong.  Attempt validation based on the filename type; if that
fails, the object is toast regardless of whether the filename appears
in the manifest or not.  Don't expect the RP to play guessing games.

From kent@bbn.com  Wed Jul 20 10:23:11 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] looking at repository withholding attacks.
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Terry,

The repository document mandates that each CA=20
issue a manifest and maintain it in an up-to-date=20
fashion; that's pretty clear.  For example, 4.2.1=20
says  "If the authority alters any of the items=20
that it has published in the repository=20
publication point, then the authority MUST issue=20
a new manifest before the nextUpdate time."=20
Section 5.1 says "For a CA publication point in=20
the RPKI repository system, a CA MUST  perform=20
the following steps to generate a manifest:" Yes,=20
I admit that it does not say that a CA MUST=20
generate a manifest, and here is how the CA MUST=20
do it, but I see that as a nit that could easily=20
be clarified during editing, unless the WG feels=20
otherwise. Section 5.2 says "A new manifest MUST=20
be issued on or before the nextUpdate time." It=20
also says "An authority MUST issue a new manifest=20
in conjunction with the finalization of changes=20
made to objects in the publication point."  Both=20
of these statements seem like pretty clear=20
direction to each CA to create a publish=20
manifests.

Section 4.4. says "To determine whether a=20
manifest is valid, the RP MUST perform the=20
following checks in addition to those specified=20
in [ID.sidr-signed-object]." This seems like=20
pretty clear direction to an RP.

Section 6 of the manifest document also says: "=20
=8A, in the following   sections, we describe a=20
sequence of tests that the RP SHOULD perform  to=20
determine the manifest state of the given=20
publication point.  We  then discuss the risks=20
associated with using signed objects in the=20
publication point, given the manifest state; we=20
also provide suitable warning text that SHOULD be=20
placed in a user-accessible log file.  It is the=20
responsibility of the RP to weigh these risks=20
against the risk  of routing failure that could=20
occur if valid data is rejected, and to=20
implement a suitable local policy."

So the manifest document explains what an RP=20
SHOULD do with respect to using manifests.  Later=20
subsections note that  an RP SHOULD view as=20
"suspect" signed objects that appear at a=20
publication point when there is no manifest=20
available, but that does not mean that an RP=20
ought not retrieve and process those objects. So=20
in such cases, the file name extension is the=20
only top-level demuxing type indicator available=20
to an RP. The text also says that an RP can=20
(probably ought) to use signed objects that=20
validate but are not on a manifest, because this=20
probably indicates an error by the maintainer of=20
the pub point, to maintain sync between the=20
manifest and the pub point content.

As for your example: I agree that if the content of a pub point in a reposit=
ory
is modified to remove the manifest for that pub=20
point (or it a MITM attacks achieves the same=20
effect), and if one or more ROAs for more=20
specific prefixes are removed, while leaving the=20
encompassing ROA, then RPs may reach the wrong=20
conclusion about the route authorization info=20
expressed by the prefix holder. This is not an=20
ideal situation. RPs have flexibility in dealing=20
with this sort of situation. For example, an RP=20
that had previously acquired all three ROAs, and=20
a matching manifest, might choose to stick with=20
that data, in light of the absence of a manifest=20
for the objects retrieved this time.

Manifests do two things well: if they are perfect=20
and the pub point perfectly matches what the=20
manifest says, an RP gets a very warm fuzzy=20
feeling. If a manifest is perfect, and a named=20
object is missing, or is present but the hash=20
does not match, an RP should be suspicious, e.g.,=20
contact the CA to see what's wrong (e.g., using=20
the GhostBusters record info). But, for most=20
(all?) of the other cases of a mismatch between a=20
manifest and pub point content, the manifest=20
can't tell the RP what is wrong.

Steve

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Wed Jul 20 10:35:22 2011
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On Wed, 20 Jul 2011, Stephen Kent wrote:

> Terry,
>
> The repository document mandates that each CA issue a manifest and mainta=
in=20
> it in an up-to-date fashion; that's pretty clear.

There's also the following text:

2.1. Manifests


    Every repository publication point MUST contain a manifest


--Sandy, speaking only as a personal observation



                                                  For example, 4.2.1 says=
=20
> "If the authority alters any of the items that it has published in the=20
> repository publication point, then the authority MUST issue a new manifes=
t=20
> before the nextUpdate time." Section 5.1 says "For a CA publication point=
 in=20
> the RPKI repository system, a CA MUST  perform the following steps to=20
> generate a manifest:" Yes, I admit that it does not say that a CA MUST=20
> generate a manifest, and here is how the CA MUST do it, but I see that as=
 a=20
> nit that could easily be clarified during editing, unless the WG feels=20
> otherwise. Section 5.2 says "A new manifest MUST be issued on or before t=
he=20
> nextUpdate time." It also says "An authority MUST issue a new manifest in=
=20
> conjunction with the finalization of changes made to objects in the=20
> publication point."  Both of these statements seem like pretty clear=20
> direction to each CA to create a publish manifests.
>
> Section 4.4. says "To determine whether a manifest is valid, the RP MUST=
=20
> perform the following checks in addition to those specified in=20
> [ID.sidr-signed-object]." This seems like pretty clear direction to an RP=
=2E
>
> Section 6 of the manifest document also says: " =8A, in the following=20
> sections, we describe a sequence of tests that the RP SHOULD perform  to=
=20
> determine the manifest state of the given publication point.  We  then=20
> discuss the risks associated with using signed objects in the publication=
=20
> point, given the manifest state; we also provide suitable warning text th=
at=20
> SHOULD be placed in a user-accessible log file.  It is the responsibility=
 of=20
> the RP to weigh these risks against the risk  of routing failure that cou=
ld=20
> occur if valid data is rejected, and to implement a suitable local policy=
=2E"
>
> So the manifest document explains what an RP SHOULD do with respect to us=
ing=20
> manifests.  Later subsections note that  an RP SHOULD view as "suspect"=
=20
> signed objects that appear at a publication point when there is no manife=
st=20
> available, but that does not mean that an RP ought not retrieve and proce=
ss=20
> those objects. So in such cases, the file name extension is the only=20
> top-level demuxing type indicator available to an RP. The text also says =
that=20
> an RP can (probably ought) to use signed objects that validate but are no=
t on=20
> a manifest, because this probably indicates an error by the maintainer of=
 the=20
> pub point, to maintain sync between the manifest and the pub point conten=
t.
>
> As for your example: I agree that if the content of a pub point in a=20
> repository
> is modified to remove the manifest for that pub point (or it a MITM attac=
ks=20
> achieves the same effect), and if one or more ROAs for more specific pref=
ixes=20
> are removed, while leaving the encompassing ROA, then RPs may reach the w=
rong=20
> conclusion about the route authorization info expressed by the prefix hol=
der.=20
> This is not an ideal situation. RPs have flexibility in dealing with this=
=20
> sort of situation. For example, an RP that had previously acquired all th=
ree=20
> ROAs, and a matching manifest, might choose to stick with that data, in l=
ight=20
> of the absence of a manifest for the objects retrieved this time.
>
> Manifests do two things well: if they are perfect and the pub point perfe=
ctly=20
> matches what the manifest says, an RP gets a very warm fuzzy feeling. If =
a=20
> manifest is perfect, and a named object is missing, or is present but the=
=20
> hash does not match, an RP should be suspicious, e.g., contact the CA to =
see=20
> what's wrong (e.g., using the GhostBusters record info). But, for most (a=
ll?)=20
> of the other cases of a mismatch between a manifest and pub point content=
,=20
> the manifest can't tell the RP what is wrong.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>
--15606991-15411-1311183293=:5164--

From kent@bbn.com  Wed Jul 20 10:47:59 2011
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 13:47:16 -0400
To: Geoff Huston <gih@apnic.net>
From: Stephen Kent <kent@bbn.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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At 12:53 PM +1000 7/18/11, Geoff Huston wrote:
>...
>How is this X.500 directory "tagging" achieved in other PKIs? Three 
>letter filename extension conventions? Or some other tag mechanism?

I was referring specifically to the X.500 directory, which tags via 
its ASN.1 encoding for data types. But, in reality nobody uses X.500. 
LDAP is used instead, and it is based on X.500 (more precisely, 
X.501).

LDAP directories are accessed using the LDAP protocol, so file names 
don't enter into the picture. One identifies the entry (by 
distinguished name) and the object type (class) within the entry by 
OID, and the requests that value of the object (speaking about 
retrieval).  It is up to the implementation of the LDAP protocol to 
find the right type of object based on the search parameters 
provided, and to update or retrieve the objects accordingly.

The RPKI repository design is very different. it is not intended to 
support searching the way X.500 or LDAP does. Our operational model 
says that every RP needs to retrieve the current version of every 
object at every pub point (to first order), periodically. We selected 
rsync as the access protocol, and it uses directory and file names to 
locate objects. So, given our access model and our choice of access 
protocol, I think we ought to assume that filenames are the 
appropriate object names, and filename extensions are a convenient 
object type indicator, for use with this protocol.

Some RPs might, for example decide to not download GB files because 
these files are not critical to ROA validation. I am told that one 
can use rsync to perform selective retrieval based on a filename 
extension, so the use of such extensions seems very reasonable, as a 
means of enabling such selective retrieval.

Steve

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Wed Jul 20 19:31:40 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: Stephen Kent <kent@bbn.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 19:31:36 -0700
Thread-Topic: [sidr] looking at repository withholding attacks.
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Steve,

On 21/07/11 3:22 AM, "Stephen Kent" <kent@bbn.com> wrote:

> Terry,
>=20
> The repository document mandates that each CA
> issue a manifest and maintain it in an up-to-date
> fashion; that's pretty clear.  For example, 4.2.1
> says  "If the authority alters any of the items
> that it has published in the repository
> publication point, then the authority MUST issue
> a new manifest before the nextUpdate time."
> Section 5.1 says "For a CA publication point in
> the RPKI repository system, a CA MUST  perform
> the following steps to generate a manifest:" Yes,
> I admit that it does not say that a CA MUST
> generate a manifest, and here is how the CA MUST
> do it, but I see that as a nit that could easily
> be clarified during editing, unless the WG feels

I think that would be fair, I'm happy for such an edit.

> otherwise. Section 5.2 says "A new manifest MUST
> be issued on or before the nextUpdate time." It
> also says "An authority MUST issue a new manifest
> in conjunction with the finalization of changes
> made to objects in the publication point."  Both
> of these statements seem like pretty clear
> direction to each CA to create a publish
> manifests.

I think it is sensible for us to be explicit in the creation of objects
which drive the repository.

>=20
> Section 4.4. says "To determine whether a
> manifest is valid, the RP MUST perform the
> following checks in addition to those specified
> in [ID.sidr-signed-object]." This seems like
> pretty clear direction to an RP.

Right.. and then is says

" If the above procedure indicates that the manifest is invalid, then
   the manifest MUST be discarded and treated as though no manifest were
   present."

Which then really needs a point to 6.2.. but that's a nit I don't really
care about.


>=20
> Section 6 of the manifest document also says: "
> =A9, in the following   sections, we describe a
> sequence of tests that the RP SHOULD perform  to
> determine the manifest state of the given
> publication point.  We  then discuss the risks
> associated with using signed objects in the
> publication point, given the manifest state; we
> also provide suitable warning text that SHOULD be
> placed in a user-accessible log file.  It is the
> responsibility of the RP to weigh these risks
> against the risk  of routing failure that could
> occur if valid data is rejected, and to
> implement a suitable local policy."

I would prefer, given the identified case, that where a situation exists
that a manifest is is non-existent or discarded that the entire publication
point MUST be considered suspicious and not used for validation of
operational objects. I would be fine if the GB object were still validated
and used for human contact reasons with sufficient warnings about lack of
trust.

>=20
> So the manifest document explains what an RP
> SHOULD do with respect to using manifests.  Later
> subsections note that  an RP SHOULD view as
> "suspect" signed objects that appear at a
> publication point when there is no manifest
> available, but that does not mean that an RP
> ought not retrieve and process those objects. So

I'm fine for the RP to retrieve, fine for them to attempt to validate.
but any use of those objects seems like a very slippery slope.

I can foresee the potential for some transitive state existing where the RP
fetches an incomplete repository, however I would still urge that the RP
MUST not use an incomplete[1] repository and fall back onto their last know=
n
valid local cache [2].

[1] where the manifest is missing, or any objects listed in the manifest ar=
e
missing.

[2] since multiple SIA values are permitted it might make sense to suggest
attempting to find a sane publication point from a replicated site (I'm not
sure at this stage if serial/rtt semantics are needed in that) but I suspec=
t
such a function will be a necessity for entities "up the tree" who need to
consider high availability and network visibility of the publication point.

> in such cases, the file name extension is the
> only top-level demuxing type indicator available

In the absence of a manifest - "hint/indicator" I am comfortable with -
anything more is a veritable stretch.

> to an RP. The text also says that an RP can
> (probably ought) to use signed objects that
> validate but are not on a manifest, because this
> probably indicates an error by the maintainer of
> the pub point, to maintain sync between the
> manifest and the pub point content.

That seems inconsistent with the direction to a CA where Manifests must
exist, and must list all files (and hash) at the publication point.
I see this as a hard error, not a fuzzy one that can be left to an
interpretation without any real supporting information to the RP.

>=20
> As for your example: I agree that if the content of a pub point in a
> repository
> is modified to remove the manifest for that pub
> point (or it a MITM attacks achieves the same
> effect), and if one or more ROAs for more
> specific prefixes are removed, while leaving the
> encompassing ROA, then RPs may reach the wrong
> conclusion about the route authorization info
> expressed by the prefix holder. This is not an
> ideal situation. RPs have flexibility in dealing
> with this sort of situation. For example, an RP
> that had previously acquired all three ROAs, and
> a matching manifest, might choose to stick with
> that data, in light of the absence of a manifest
> for the objects retrieved this time.

It seems this falls into a comment expressed several times before by other
wg members "don't leave the RP guessing".

>=20
> Manifests do two things well: if they are perfect
> and the pub point perfectly matches what the
> manifest says, an RP gets a very warm fuzzy

They get more than that - they know that the repository is presented as
intended and perfectly retrieved.

> feeling. If a manifest is perfect, and a named
> object is missing, or is present but the hash
> does not match, an RP should be suspicious, e.g.,

I would prefer to see a "MUST" in that thinking.

> contact the CA to see what's wrong (e.g., using
> the GhostBusters record info). But, for most
> (all?) of the other cases of a mismatch between a
> manifest and pub point content, the manifest
> can't tell the RP what is wrong.

That to me suggests the relying party ends up in a state of "how was I
supposed to know". In a security construct this seems non-optimal.

May I suggest the following to the WG:

Given that it's reasonable to expect that the CA MUST publish the manifest,
and the manifest MUST contain all the object's file and hash at the
publication point a RP MUST consider a publication point suspicious which
has a anything other than a perfect manifest and set of matching
files/hashes.

The RP MAY use the remaining objects for debugging purposes only.

This will solve and remove the issue I have identified.

The _worst case_ is that the all the resources (ROAs) described at the
suspicious publication point move to a state of "UNKNOWN". Which is far far
better (and softer in potential routing decisions) in my opinion than
erroneously classifying a route as INVALID.

The plus side to this is it reduces the situations where a RP is left
scratching their head in bewilderment.

Cheers
terry


From randy@psg.com  Wed Jul 20 19:42:47 2011
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> I would prefer, given the identified case, that where a situation
> exists that a manifest is is non-existent or discarded that the entire
> publication point MUST be considered suspicious and not used for
> validation of operational objects. I would be fine if the GB object
> were still validated and used for human contact reasons with
> sufficient warnings about lack of trust.

off the bloody wall.  the trust is gained through the cert chain.

randy

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Wed Jul 20 19:53:30 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
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On 21/07/11 12:42 PM, "Randy Bush" <randy@psg.com> wrote:

>> I would prefer, given the identified case, that where a situation
>> exists that a manifest is is non-existent or discarded that the entire
>> publication point MUST be considered suspicious and not used for
>> validation of operational objects. I would be fine if the GB object
>> were still validated and used for human contact reasons with
>> sufficient warnings about lack of trust.
>=20
> off the bloody wall.  the trust is gained through the cert chain.

very well, "if the GB still validates through the cert chain."

Provided of course that you have a valid GB object since without a manifest
a simple `cp 00001.gbr 00001.cer` will fail to validate under the assumptio=
n
you make the validation selection regime based on filename extension.

Terry


From randy@psg.com  Wed Jul 20 20:00:56 2011
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>>> I would prefer, given the identified case, that where a situation
>>> exists that a manifest is is non-existent or discarded that the entire
>>> publication point MUST be considered suspicious and not used for
>>> validation of operational objects. I would be fine if the GB object
>>> were still validated and used for human contact reasons with
>>> sufficient warnings about lack of trust.
>> 
>> off the bloody wall.  the trust is gained through the cert chain.
> 
> very well, "if the GB still validates through the cert chain."
> 
> Provided of course that you have a valid GB object since without a
> manifest a simple `cp 00001.gbr 00001.cer` will fail to validate under
> the assumption you make the validation selection regime based on
> filename extension

this is so far off into the weeds as to be picturesquely stunning.

let me try with more words.  the rpki is an x.509 based pki.  it is the
certs and validation chain(s) which rule.  if a roa, gbr, ee cert,
... validates to a ta, it is good.  period, end.  finished.

the purpose of the manifest is to try and reduce one known attack on
this type of pki, removal of an object.  end.  period.  fin.

randy

From terry.manderson@icann.org  Wed Jul 20 20:03:41 2011
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On 21/07/11 2:15 AM, "Rob Austein" <sra@isc.org> wrote:

> At Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:03:18 -0700, Terry Manderson wrote:
>>=20
>> Rob's observation that the extension exists in the manifest file name is=
 a
>> close approximation provided words exist as highlighted which gives clea=
r
>> instruction to implementers as to
>> 1) make the first approximation of validation regime on the filename in =
the
>> _manifest_
>> 2) then try all others
>> 3) give up.
>=20
> Sorry, wrong.  Attempt validation based on the filename type; if that
> fails, the object is toast regardless of whether the filename appears
> in the manifest or not.  Don't expect the RP to play guessing games.

You wouldn't check the manifest? The manifest seems like the hinge point to
me.

I think I'll have to reflect on why you select that direction.

Cheers
Terry


From terry.manderson@icann.org  Wed Jul 20 20:24:55 2011
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To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
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>>=20
>> Provided of course that you have a valid GB object since without a
>> manifest a simple `cp 00001.gbr 00001.cer` will fail to validate under

oops that should have been `mv 00001.gbr 00001.cer`.

>> the assumption you make the validation selection regime based on
>> filename extension
>=20
> this is so far off into the weeds as to be picturesquely stunning.

no its not.. Rob has said:

" Attempt validation based on the filename type; if that
fails, the object is toast regardless of whether the filename appears
in the manifest or not. "

That means if I rename an object it will not validate. (irrespective of
being in the manifest or not)

so really, 'rm *mft; for for foobar in * ; do mv $foobar $foobar.gbr ; done=
'

will wipe out the entire repository and nothing will validate, except the
valid GB record..

Did I interpret Rob incorrectly?

So similarly 'for for foobar in * ; do mv $foobar hahha$foobar ; done'
will mean that the manifest will mismatch, but provides a very clear signal
if we use the MUST word to the RP such that the RP will set aside the entir=
e
publication point and start the human interaction process with a no harm/no
foul result.

>=20
> let me try with more words.  the rpki is an x.509 based pki.  it is the
> certs and validation chain(s) which rule.  if a roa, gbr, ee cert,
> ... validates to a ta, it is good.  period, end.  finished.
>=20
> the purpose of the manifest is to try and reduce one known attack on
> this type of pki, removal of an object.  end.  period.  fin.

The problem is Randy, that this PKI requires full and complete distribution
through a sane repository system. Failure to have a full and complete
repository WILL lead to unintended (ie bad) results. So its not just the PK=
I
alone.

Terry


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On 7/20/2011 11:03 PM, Terry Manderson wrote:
>
> On 21/07/11 2:15 AM, "Rob Austein"<sra@isc.org>  wrote:
>
>> At Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:03:18 -0700, Terry Manderson wrote:
>>>
>>> Rob's observation that the extension exists in the manifest file name is a
>>> close approximation provided words exist as highlighted which gives clear
>>> instruction to implementers as to
>>> 1) make the first approximation of validation regime on the filename in the
>>> _manifest_
>>> 2) then try all others
>>> 3) give up.
>>
>> Sorry, wrong.  Attempt validation based on the filename type; if that
>> fails, the object is toast regardless of whether the filename appears
>> in the manifest or not.  Don't expect the RP to play guessing games.
>
> You wouldn't check the manifest? The manifest seems like the hinge point to
> me.

As another implementer, I agree with Rob.

Manifests cannot solve everything.  They detect when an expected file is 
NOT present.  If you try to use them as a comprehensive listing, you run 
into tons of gray areas.  I'll refrain from rehashing the discussion in 
the other thread about manifests, but you can insert that here.

Therefore, the BBN validator does the only thing sensible, which is 
validate based on filename and certificate chain.  After that, we check 
against the manifest and emit a warning if it doesn't look right.  And 
we provide the user with configuration flags to control the output of 
validator: does he want output from the "perfect" ROAs only (with 
perfect manifests all the way up the chain), or is some level of 
grayness acceptable.

Manifests are murky, especially when you misuse them.  Filename 
extensions are not.

-Andrew


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On 7/20/2011 11:24 PM, Terry Manderson wrote:
> The problem is Randy, that this PKI requires full and complete distribution
> through a sane repository system. Failure to have a full and complete
> repository WILL lead to unintended (ie bad) results.

I agree that relying parties (RPs) need eventual access to the full 
repository system, and it's true that repositories (not just filenames) 
are considered unprotected structures.

But IMO this is why we have RP software that:
(1) caches valid objects from previous downloads,
(2) validates through the certificate chain, and
(3) does *not* simply blacklist an entire subtree when a single manifest 
disappears (or more generally, when other parent objects are 
inaccessible through the repo system).

With RP software that does those things, intermittent repository 
dropouts and even intermittent corrupted repositories are okay.

What am I missing?

-Andrew


From terry.manderson@icann.org  Thu Jul 21 19:00:11 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: Andrew Chi <achi@bbn.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 19:00:07 -0700
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Hi Andrew,


On 22/07/11 5:00 AM, "Andrew Chi" <achi@bbn.com> wrote:

> On 7/20/2011 11:24 PM, Terry Manderson wrote:
>> The problem is Randy, that this PKI requires full and complete distribut=
ion
>> through a sane repository system. Failure to have a full and complete
>> repository WILL lead to unintended (ie bad) results.
>

I left off a few words that might clarify the position.

"Failure to have a full and complete repository" should have been
"Failure to have a full and complete repository at that publication point"

Given the distributed nature of the repository there will be times that som=
e
publication points are not available.
=20
> I agree that relying parties (RPs) need eventual access to the full
> repository system, and it's true that repositories (not just filenames)
> are considered unprotected structures.

agree.

>=20
> But IMO this is why we have RP software that:
> (1) caches valid objects from previous downloads,

Which is good.

> (2) validates through the certificate chain, and

good there too.

> (3) does *not* simply blacklist an entire subtree when a single manifest
> disappears (or more generally, when other parent objects are
> inaccessible through the repo system).

This is where I disagree. Doing this takes the existing routing system with
the default assessment of "unknown" and asserts a statement of "INVALID" in
the case that I provided.

This is badness and I think is the wrong action to take and against the
original mandate of SIDR of 'make before break'. So you must set the
publication point aside as you can't verify the consistency of the
publication point unless you have a complete manifest and set of files, if
you then pass that to the routing side as a 'best fit' the RP is simply
guessing on what the intended outcomes should be.

You may use a previously sane and known repository point which still
validates.

I am fine for RPs to do tweaks on the information once they receive it on
the routing side (specifically how they implement VALID, INVALID, and
UNKNOWN) but the outputs from the RPKI validation of a publication point
should be perfectly predicable in all situations of repository dropouts and
intermittent corruptions.

>=20
> With RP software that does those things, intermittent repository
> dropouts and even intermittent corrupted repositories are okay.
>

Not when they result in routes being marked as INVALID from such events.
=20
> What am I missing?


My suggestion to fix this through the manifest is probably only one
solution.

If you have an alternative fix, which takes the burden and guesswork away
from the RP, I would be happy to hear it.

Terry


From terry.manderson@icann.org  Thu Jul 21 19:16:43 2011
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From: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
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Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 19:16:40 -0700
Thread-Topic: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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Hi Andrew,


>=20
> Therefore, the BBN validator does the only thing sensible, which is
> validate based on filename and certificate chain.  After that, we check
> against the manifest and emit a warning if it doesn't look right.  And
> we provide the user with configuration flags to control the output of
> validator: does he want output from the "perfect" ROAs only (with
> perfect manifests all the way up the chain), or is some level of
> grayness acceptable.
>=20
> Manifests are murky, especially when you misuse them.  Filename
> extensions are not.

Maybe the repository should have been constructed in LDAP with a manifest
object there to confirm the ldap search returned all the roa objects.

I am, and still, remain uncomfortable about RPKI using filename extensions
as the only mechanism to select the validation regime. It might be a
flippant statement but even Microsoft office can tell a word document from
an excel document without the extension.

Perhaps Randy's terse statement about starting again with TLVs isn't
actually bad advice given that getting stuff from a repository isn't
actually a specific question/answer model.

Cheers
Terry


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Cc: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>, draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org, sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org, sidr@ietf.org
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Manderson" <terry.manderson@icann.org>
To: "Andrew Chi" <achi@bbn.com>
Cc: "Rob Austein" <sra@isc.org>; <draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org>;
<sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; <sidr@ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 4:16 AM

> Hi Andrew,
> >
> > Therefore, the BBN validator does the only thing sensible, which is
> > validate based on filename and certificate chain.  After that, we check
> > against the manifest and emit a warning if it doesn't look right.  And
> > we provide the user with configuration flags to control the output of
> > validator: does he want output from the "perfect" ROAs only (with
> > perfect manifests all the way up the chain), or is some level of
> > grayness acceptable.
> >
> > Manifests are murky, especially when you misuse them.  Filename
> > extensions are not.
>
> Maybe the repository should have been constructed in LDAP with a manifest
> object there to confirm the ldap search returned all the roa objects.
>
> I am, and still, remain uncomfortable about RPKI using filename extensions
> as the only mechanism to select the validation regime. It might be a
> flippant statement but even Microsoft office can tell a word document from
> an excel document without the extension.

Indeed; file extensions only work - and they have been working very well for a
long time - in and around PC systems because they are part of a belt and braces.
Almost all file formats also say what they are in the first line - GIF, jpeg,
PDF, Wordpro etc - so the file extension gets you to the application that can
then easily verify that what is has been passed is plausibly correct and not go
mad because eg Wordpro is trying to parse a PDF.

Given the distributed nature of the dynamic database that is RPKI, I would have
thought a self identifying first line would be essential.

Tom Petch

>
> Perhaps Randy's terse statement about starting again with TLVs isn't
> actually bad advice given that getting stuff from a repository isn't
> actually a specific question/answer model.
>
> Cheers
> Terry
>
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr


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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 09:22:40 -0400
To: Terry Manderson <terry.manderson@icann.org>
From: Stephen Kent <kent@bbn.com>
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Cc: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>, "draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org>, "sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "sidr@ietf.org" <sidr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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At 7:16 PM -0700 7/21/11, Terry Manderson wrote:
>Hi Andrew,
>
>
>>
>>  Therefore, the BBN validator does the only thing sensible, which is
>>  validate based on filename and certificate chain.  After that, we check
>>  against the manifest and emit a warning if it doesn't look right.  And
>>  we provide the user with configuration flags to control the output of
>>  validator: does he want output from the "perfect" ROAs only (with
>>  perfect manifests all the way up the chain), or is some level of
>>  grayness acceptable.
>>
>>  Manifests are murky, especially when you misuse them.  Filename
>>  extensions are not.
>
>Maybe the repository should have been constructed in LDAP with a manifest
>object there to confirm the ldap search returned all the roa objects.

LDAP would be terrible in this context. It is not well suited to
the "I want everything that has changed since this time" model of
repository access that RPs need here.

Steve

From kent@bbn.com  Sat Jul 23 07:23:01 2011
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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 09:37:17 -0400
To: "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>
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Cc: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>, draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org, sidr@ietf.org, sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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>...
>Given the distributed nature of the dynamic database that is RPKI, I 
>would have
>thought a self identifying first line would be essential.
>
>Tom Petch

Repository objects are not text files.  They are binary (CMS). Each 
object DOES begin with its context type (and OID).  So, in the binary 
space, we do just what you suggested. But, it is still very helpful 
to make use of filename extensions, e.g., to allow different types of 
RPs to filter what they retrieve.

Steve

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Cc: Rob Austein <sra@isc.org>, draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org, sidr@ietf.org, sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct to Standards Track
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Kent" <kent@bbn.com>
To: "t.petch" <ietfc@btconnect.com>
Cc: "Terry Manderson" <terry.manderson@icann.org>; "Rob Austein" <sra@isc.org>;
<draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org>; <sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org>;
<sidr@ietf.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:37 PM
> >...
> >Given the distributed nature of the dynamic database that is RPKI, I
> >would have
> >thought a self identifying first line would be essential.
> >
> >Tom Petch
>
> Repository objects are not text files.  They are binary (CMS). Each
> object DOES begin with its context type (and OID).  So, in the binary
> space, we do just what you suggested. But, it is still very helpful
> to make use of filename extensions, e.g., to allow different types of
> RPs to filter what they retrieve.

Yes, I am well familiar with OIDs and their encoding and assume that
Terry is as well, so I was endorsing what I take to be his disquiet about only
using file extensions before assuming that there is an OID there and
presenting it to the validation regime on the assumption that there is one
to decode.

Tom Petch


>
> Steve


From kent@bbn.com  Sun Jul 24 06:25:53 2011
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I was reminded that not all objects in the RPKI repository are
CMS objects, e.g., certs and CRLs.

These are binary objects that do not start with an OID.

Nonetheless, since we have adopted rsync as the access protocol
for the RPKI repository, and since it deals with files and filenames,
using the filename to identify an object yype at the top level seems
appropriate.

Steve

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Mon Jul 25 16:34:04 2011
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:33:55 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
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Subject: [sidr] send chairs your slides by Wed evening
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Slides for the presentations need to be uploaded to the meeting materials 
web site before the meeting.

Please do send the chairs your presentations by Wed evening.

It would be a good idea to check the meeting materials site to see that 
the slides you sent have been up loaded.

I will confirm when I upload slides I have received.

Chris Morrow is not going to be able to be here, so his ability to assist 
in uploads will be limited.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Mon Jul 25 16:35:20 2011
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 19:35:17 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
From: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
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Subject: [sidr] minutes taker and jabber scribe needed
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Our meeting is Thursday morning.

I'm doing the usual pleading for voluneteers to take minutes and do jabber 
scribing.

We do need volunteers for both positions.

--Sandy, speaking as wg chair


From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Tue Jul 26 14:14:35 2011
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Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 17:14:33 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)
From: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
To: sidr@ietf.org
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-pki-profiles-00.txt (fwd)
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I noticed the following announcement.  This looks to be of interest to the 
wg.

--Sandy


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:36:23 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action: draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-pki-profiles-00.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

 	Title           : A Profile for BGPSEC Router Certificates, Certificate Revocation Lists, and Certification Requests
 	Author(s)       : Mark Reynolds
                           Sean Turner
 	Filename        : draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-pki-profiles-00.txt
 	Pages           : 11
 	Date            : 2011-07-26

    This document defines a standard profile for X.509 certificates for
    the purposes of supporting validation of Autonomous System (AS) paths
    in the Border Gateway Protocol (BGP), as part of an extension to that
    protocol known as BGPSEC.  BGP is a critical component for the proper
    operation of the Internet as a whole.  The BGPSEC protocol is under
    development as a component to address the requirement to provide
    security for the BGP protocol.  The goal of BGPSEC is to design a
    protocol for full AS path validation based on the use of strong
    cryptographic primitives.  The end-entity (EE) certificates specified
    by this profile are issued under Resource Public Key Infrastructure
    (RPKI) Certification Authority (CA) certificates, containing the AS
    number extension, to routers within the Autonomous System (AS).  The
    certificate asserts that the router(s) holding the private key are
    authorized to send out secure route advertisements on behalf of the
    specified AS.  This document also profiles the Certificate Revocation
    List (CRL), profiles the format of certification requests, and
    specifies Relying Party certificate path validation procedures.  The
    document extends the RPKI; therefore, this documents updates the RPKI
    Resource Certificates Profile (draft-ietf-sidr-res-certs).


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-pki-profiles-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-pki-profiles-00.txt
_______________________________________________
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From waehlisch@ieee.org  Wed Jul 27 10:23:08 2011
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Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:22:56 -0400 (Eastern Sommerzeit)
From: Matthias Waehlisch <waehlisch@ieee.org>
To: Sandra Murphy <Sandra.Murphy@sparta.com>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] send chairs your slides by Wed evening
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

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Hi Sandy,

  please find enclosed our slides for the RTR client implementation 
update.


Best regards
  matthias


-- 
Matthias Waehlisch
.  Freie Universitaet Berlin, Inst. fuer Informatik, AG CST
.  Takustr. 9, D-14195 Berlin, Germany
.. mailto:waehlisch@ieee.org .. http://www.inf.fu-berlin.de/~waehl
:. Also: http://inet.cpt.haw-hamburg.de .. http://www.link-lab.net

On Mon, 25 Jul 2011, Sandra Murphy wrote:

> Slides for the presentations need to be uploaded to the meeting materials web
> site before the meeting.
> 
> Please do send the chairs your presentations by Wed evening.
> 
> It would be a good idea to check the meeting materials site to see that the
> slides you sent have been up loaded.
> 
> I will confirm when I upload slides I have received.
> 
> Chris Morrow is not going to be able to be here, so his ability to assist in
> uploads will be limited.
> 
> --Sandy, speaking as wg chair
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
> 
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--74305831-6736-1311787376=:1356--

From stbryant@cisco.com  Wed Jul 27 10:54:10 2011
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Cc: draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct@tools.ietf.org, sidr-chairs@tools.ietf.org
Subject: [sidr] draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct - Track
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Having reviewed the discussion on how to
proceed with this document, I believe that
there is a rough consensus to publish
draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct as a Standards Track
document.

Please will the editor make the necessary changes.

Regards

Stewart







From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Wed Jul 27 11:43:45 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : Algorithm Agility Procedure for RPKI.
	Author(s)       : Roque Gagliano
                          Stephen Kent
                          Sean Turner
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-02.txt
	Pages           : 25
	Date            : 2011-07-27

   This document specifies the process that Certification Authorities
   (CAs) and Relying Parties (RP) participating in the Resource Public
   Key Infrastructure (RPKI) will need to follow to transition to a new
   (and probably cryptographically stronger) algorithm set.  The process
   is expected to be completed in a time scale of months or years.
   Consequently, no emergency transition is specified.  The transition
   procedure defined in this document supports only a top-down migration
   (parent migrates before children).


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-02.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-algorithm-agility-02.txt

From Sandra.Murphy@cobham.com  Wed Jul 27 11:53:42 2011
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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-algs-00.txt (fwd)
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Here's another announcement that appears to be of interest to the group.

--Sandy


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 07:36:32 -0700
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action: draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-algs-00.txt

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

 	Title           : BGP Algorithms, Key Formats, &amp; Signature Formats
 	Author(s)       : Sean Turner
 	Filename        : draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-algs-00.txt
 	Pages           : 7
 	Date            : 2011-07-26

    This document specifies the algorithms, algorithms&#39; parameters,
    asymmetric key formats, asymmetric key size and signature format used
    in BGPSEC (Border Gateway Protocol Security).  This document updates
    the Profile for Algorithms and Key Sizes for use in the Resource
    Public Key Infrastructure (draft-ietf-sidr-rpki-algs).


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-turner-sidr-bgpsec-algs-00.txt

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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
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_______________________________________________
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From rogaglia@cisco.com  Wed Jul 27 14:46:21 2011
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From: Roque Gagliano <rogaglia@cisco.com>
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Hi Pradosh,=20

I read the document and I think it is in great shape. I found some nits =
and have some comments.

Roque


General Comment:
  " Depending on the lookup result, we define a property for each route,
   called the "validity state".  It can assume the values "valid", "not
   found", or "invalid"."

You may want to consider calling it "Origin AS validity state" to =
distinguish it from the validity state in BGPSEC ("valid" and =
"invalid").

Section 1:
p2: s/verifyable/verifiable

Section 2:
   "An AS can originate more than one
   prefix set.  Thus, multiple prefix sets in the database can contain
   the same origin AS(es)."

I believe you also need to mention that in the table there may be =
"multi-origin prefixes". Geoff report identifies 2400 but you may find =
more in local/regional environments =
(http://bgp.potaroo.net/as6447/report.txt).

Section 5:
p5:=20
I believe you should reference =
draft-ietf-sidr-origin-validation-signaling-00

Security Consideration:
I think you need to consider what you already mentioned in section 4, if =
the connectivity to the local-caches is lost, invalid routes will be =
classified as "not-found", which could have a different set of local =
policies.


>=20
>=20
>=20
> n Jul 11, 2011, at 7:24 PM, Pradosh Mohapatra wrote:
>=20
>> FYI... This version addresses comments from Geoff (put a reference to =
ietf-sidr-origin-ops + some word-smithing). Would appreciate another =
review.
>>=20
>> - Pradosh
>>=20
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-pfx-validate-02.txt
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> sidr mailing list
>> sidr@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>=20


--Apple-Mail-24-636011823
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi =
Pradosh,&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>I read the document and I think it is =
in great shape. I found some nits and have some =
comments.</div><div><br></div><div>Roque</div><div><div><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>General =
Comment:</div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;">&nbsp;&nbsp;" Depending on the lookup result, we define a =
property for each route,</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: =
normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 11px;">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
called the "validity state".&nbsp; It can assume the values "valid", =
"not</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;">&nbsp;&nbsp; found", or "invalid"."</span></font></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; =
"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;"><br></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal =
normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 11px;">You may want to consider calling it "Origin =
AS validity state" to distinguish it from the validity state in BGPSEC =
("valid" and "invalid").</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: =
normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;"><br></span></font></div><div>Section =
1:</div><div>p2:&nbsp;s/verifyable/verifiable</div><div><br></div><div>Sec=
tion 2:</div><div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;">&nbsp;&nbsp; "An AS can originate more than =
one</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;">&nbsp;&nbsp; prefix set.&nbsp; Thus, multiple prefix sets in the =
database can contain</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal =
normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 11px;">&nbsp;&nbsp; the same origin =
AS(es)."</span></font></div></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal =
normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 11px;"><br></span></font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; =
"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 11px;">I believe you also =
need to mention that in the table there may be "multi-origin prefixes". =
Geoff report identifies 2400 but you may find more in local/regional =
environments (</span></font><a =
href=3D"http://bgp.potaroo.net/as6447/report.txt"><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;">http://bgp.potaroo.net/as6447/report.txt</span></font></a><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;">).</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal =
normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 11px;"><br></span></font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; =
"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 11px;">Section =
5:</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal =
12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;">p5:&nbsp;</span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal =
normal normal 12px/normal Courier; "><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 11px;">I believe you should =
reference&nbsp;</span></font><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre; "><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sidr-origin-validation-signa=
ling-00"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
11px;">draft-ietf-sidr-origin-validation-signaling-00</span></font></a></s=
pan></div><div><br></div><div>Security Consideration:</div><div>I think =
you need to consider what you already mentioned in section 4, if the =
connectivity to the local-caches is lost, invalid routes will be =
classified as "not-found", which could have a different set of local =
policies.</div><div><br></div><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Courier" size=3D"3"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
face=3D"Arial"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
medium;"><br></span></font></span></font></div></div></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Courier; =
"><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>n Jul 11, 2011, at 7:24 =
PM, Pradosh Mohapatra wrote:</div><div><div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>FYI... =
This version addresses comments from Geoff (put a reference to =
ietf-sidr-origin-ops + some word-smithing). Would appreciate another =
review.<br><br>- Pradosh<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">A URL for this =
Internet-Draft is:<br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-pfx-validate-0=
2.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-pfx-validate-02=
.txt</a><br></blockquote><br><br>_________________________________________=
______<br>sidr mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org">sidr@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/sidr</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div=
></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [sidr] I-D Action: draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct-09.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Secure Inter-Domain Routing Working G=
roup of the IETF.

	Title           : A Profile for Resource Certificate Repository Structure
	Author(s)       : Geoff Huston
                          Robert Loomans
                          George Michaelson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct-09.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2011-07-27

   This document defines a profile for the structure of the Resource PKI
   distributed repository.  Each individual repository publication point
   is a directory that contains files that correspond to X.509 / PKIX
   Resource Certificates, Certificate Revocation Lists and signed
   objects.  This profile defines the object (file) naming scheme, the
   contents of repository publication points (directories), and a
   suggested internal structure of a local repository cache that is
   intended to facilitate synchronization across a distributed
   collection of repository publication points and to facilitate
   certification path construction.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct-09.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sidr-repos-struct-09.txt

From danny@tcb.net  Thu Jul 28 08:02:15 2011
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From: Danny McPherson <danny@tcb.net>
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Subject: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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Doug et al,=20
I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.  =
My only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for =
compression, then validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to =
the number of _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no =
less, and only contiguous).

I do wonder if pCNT=3D0 for transparent route servers introduces the =
opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..

-danny=

From sharangxy@gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 08:11:58 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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--000325573d2afb912a04a92295e1
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+1 support.
It's import to defend "AS removal" attack.
_____________________________________________________
Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., about.me/xiangyang



2011/7/28 Danny McPherson <danny@tcb.net>

>
> Doug et al,
> I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.  My
> only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, then
> validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of
> _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only
> contiguous).
>
> I do wonder if pCNT=0 for transparent route servers introduces the
> opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..
>
> -danny
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

--000325573d2afb912a04a92295e1
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<div>+1 support.=A0</div><div>It&#39;s import to defend &quot;AS removal&qu=
ot; attack.<br clear=3D"all"><div><div>____________________________________=
_________________<br>Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., <a href=3D"ht=
tp://about.me/xiangyang" target=3D"_blank">about.me/xiangyang</a><br>

</div></div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/7/28 Danny McPherson <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny@tcb.net">danny@tcb.net</a>&gt;</span><br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

<br>
Doug et al,<br>
I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me. =A0M=
y only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, t=
hen validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of _con=
tiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only conti=
guous).<br>


<br>
I do wonder if pCNT=3D0 for transparent route servers introduces the opport=
unity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..<br>
<br>
-danny<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
sidr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org">sidr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--000325573d2afb912a04a92295e1--

From dougm@nist.gov  Thu Jul 28 08:12:32 2011
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From: "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov>
To: Danny McPherson <danny@tcb.net>, sidr wg list <sidr@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:11:58 -0400
Thread-Topic: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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Danny,

Yes, that is certainly the idea if we agree to protect prepending (as opposed to just avoiding multiple Sigs in the the presence of prepending).

If we protect prepending, the pCNT must be carried in the protocol, covered by the Sig and verified ... i.e., what you suggest below .. in validation.

Note, that if you don't want to protect prepending ... only avoid repeating sigs ..., then you don't have to carry pCNT in the protocol.  Just update the Sig verification algorithm treat sequences of repeated AS's as one.

If we like the "translucent" approach to support RS, then we need to carry pCNT in BGSSEC.   You are right we do need enhanced receive/process rules such as:

1. Only accept pCNT=0 from peers that are configured to be route servers.

2. Don't accept paths with multiple pCNT=0 entries in a row.

Anyway, if we like this approach, we can talk the details of the receiving rules / process rules to protect potential abuse.

dougm

Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
________________________________________
From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Danny McPherson [danny@tcb.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:02 AM
To: sidr wg list
Subject: [sidr] pCNT & prepending

Doug et al,
I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.  My only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, then validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only contiguous).

I do wonder if pCNT=0 for transparent route servers introduces the opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..

-danny
_______________________________________________
sidr mailing list
sidr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr

From dougm@nist.gov  Thu Jul 28 08:14:32 2011
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From: "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov>
To: XIANG Yang <xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:12:16 -0400
Thread-Topic: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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Did your comment mean complete "AS removal" ... or defending against adding/removing pre-pends.

dougm

Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
________________________________________
From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of XIANG Yang [xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:11 AM
Cc: sidr wg list
Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending

+1 support.
It's import to defend "AS removal" attack.
_____________________________________________________
Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., about.me/xiangyang<http://about.me/xiangyang>



2011/7/28 Danny McPherson <danny@tcb.net<mailto:danny@tcb.net>>

Doug et al,
I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.  My only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, then validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only contiguous).

I do wonder if pCNT=0 for transparent route servers introduces the opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..

-danny
_______________________________________________
sidr mailing list
sidr@ietf.org<mailto:sidr@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr


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From: XIANG Yang <xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:18:22 +0800
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To: "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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Sorry for the ambiguity. I mean defending against attacks such as "removing
an AS from the path".
I.e.
suppose the path is <AS1 AS2 AS2 AS3>,
then we need pCNT to avoid AS3 to announce a shorter path <AS1 AS2 AS3>, by
remove one of AS2.

R.
_____________________________________________________
Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., about.me/xiangyang



2011/7/28 Montgomery, Douglas <dougm@nist.gov>

> Did your comment mean complete "AS removal" ... or defending against
> adding/removing pre-pends.
>
> dougm
>
> Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group /
> Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
> ________________________________________
> From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of XIANG
> Yang [xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn]
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:11 AM
> Cc: sidr wg list
> Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
>
> +1 support.
> It's import to defend "AS removal" attack.
> _____________________________________________________
> Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., about.me/xiangyang<
> http://about.me/xiangyang>
>
>
>
> 2011/7/28 Danny McPherson <danny@tcb.net<mailto:danny@tcb.net>>
>
> Doug et al,
> I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.  My
> only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, then
> validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of
> _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only
> contiguous).
>
> I do wonder if pCNT=0 for transparent route servers introduces the
> opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..
>
> -danny
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org<mailto:sidr@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>

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Sorry for the=A0ambiguity. I mean defending against attacks such as &quot;r=
emoving an AS from the path&quot;.<div>I.e.</div><div>suppose the path is &=
lt;AS1 AS2 AS2 AS3&gt;,</div><div>then we need pCNT to avoid AS3 to announc=
e a shorter path &lt;AS1 AS2 AS3&gt;, by remove one of AS2.</div>


<div><br></div><div>R.</div><div><div><div>________________________________=
_____________________<br>Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., <a href=
=3D"http://about.me/xiangyang" target=3D"_blank">about.me/xiangyang</a><br>=
</div>


</div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/7/28 Montgomery, Douglas <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dougm@nist.gov" target=3D"_blank">dougm@nist=
.gov</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


Did your comment mean complete &quot;AS removal&quot; ... or defending agai=
nst adding/removing pre-pends.<br>
<div><br>
dougm<br>
<br>
Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / In=
formation Technology Laboratory / NIST<br>
________________________________________<br>
</div>From: <a href=3D"mailto:sidr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sidr=
-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:sidr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">sidr-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of XIANG Yang [<a href=3D"mailt=
o:xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn" target=3D"_blank">xiangy08@csnet1.cs.=
tsinghua.edu.cn</a>]<br>



Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:11 AM<br>
Cc: sidr wg list<br>
Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT &amp; prepending<br>
<div><br>
+1 support.<br>
It&#39;s import to defend &quot;AS removal&quot; attack.<br>
_____________________________________________________<br>
</div>Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., <a href=3D"http://about.me/x=
iangyang" target=3D"_blank">about.me/xiangyang</a>&lt;<a href=3D"http://abo=
ut.me/xiangyang" target=3D"_blank">http://about.me/xiangyang</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
2011/7/28 Danny McPherson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny@tcb.net" target=3D"_b=
lank">danny@tcb.net</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:danny@tcb.net" target=
=3D"_blank">danny@tcb.net</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
<div><br>
Doug et al,<br>
I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me. =A0M=
y only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, t=
hen validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of _con=
tiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only conti=
guous).<br>



<br>
I do wonder if pCNT=3D0 for transparent route servers introduces the opport=
unity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..<br>
<br>
-danny<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
sidr mailing list<br>
</div><a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sidr@ietf.org</a>&=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sidr@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;<br>
<div><div></div><div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
sidr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sidr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From dougm.tlist@gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 08:24:26 2011
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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:24:17 -0400
From: Doug Montgomery <dougm.tlist@gmail.com>
To: XIANG Yang <xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn>, Doug Montgomery <dougm@nist.gov>
Message-ID: <CA56F6E8.5AC30%dougm.tlist@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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OK =AD so that is a +1 for protecting prepending, not just optimizing Sigs in
the presence of prepending.


From:  XIANG Yang <xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn>
Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:18:22 +0800
To:  Doug Montgomery <dougm@nist.gov>
Cc:  sidr wg list <sidr@ietf.org>
Subject:  Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending

> Sorry for the ambiguity. I mean defending against attacks such as "removi=
ng an
> AS from the path".
> I.e.
> suppose the path is <AS1 AS2 AS2 AS3>,
> then we need pCNT to avoid AS3 to announce a shorter path <AS1 AS2 AS3>, =
by
> remove one of AS2.
>=20
> R.
> _____________________________________________________
> Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., about.me/xiangyang
> <http://about.me/xiangyang>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> 2011/7/28 Montgomery, Douglas <dougm@nist.gov>
>> Did your comment mean complete "AS removal" ... or defending against
>> adding/removing pre-pends.
>>=20
>> dougm
>>=20
>> Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group /
>> Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
>> ________________________________________
>> From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of XIANG Y=
ang
>> [xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:11 AM
>> Cc: sidr wg list
>> Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
>>=20
>> +1 support.
>> It's import to defend "AS removal" attack.
>> _____________________________________________________
>> Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., about.me/xiangyang
>> <http://about.me/xiangyang> <http://about.me/xiangyang>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 2011/7/28 Danny McPherson <danny@tcb.net<mailto:danny@tcb.net>>
>>=20
>> Doug et al,
>> I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.  =
My
>> only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, =
then
>> validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of
>> _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and onl=
y
>> contiguous).
>>=20
>> I do wonder if pCNT=3D0 for transparent route servers introduces the
>> opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..
>>=20
>> -danny
>> _______________________________________________
>> sidr mailing list
>> sidr@ietf.org<mailto:sidr@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> sidr mailing list
>> sidr@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>=20
> _______________________________________________ sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr



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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 16px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div>OK &#8211; so that is a +1 f=
or protecting prepending, not just optimizing Sigs in the presence of prepen=
ding.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><di=
v style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; =
BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; P=
ADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-=
RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: <=
/span> XIANG Yang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn">xi=
angy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">D=
ate: </span> Thu, 28 Jul 2011 23:18:22 +0800<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bol=
d">To: </span> Doug Montgomery &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dougm@nist.gov">dougm@nis=
t.gov</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> sidr wg list &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org">sidr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-w=
eight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [sidr] pCNT &amp; prepending<br></div><div>=
<br></div><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-=
LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">Sorry for the&nbsp;=
ambiguity. I mean defending against attacks such as "removing an AS from the=
 path".<div>I.e.</div><div>suppose the path is &lt;AS1 AS2 AS2 AS3&gt;,</div=
><div>then we need pCNT to avoid AS3 to announce a shorter path &lt;AS1 AS2 =
AS3&gt;, by remove one of AS2.</div><div><br></div><div>R.</div><div><div><d=
iv>_____________________________________________________<br>Yang Xiang, PhD =
student, Tsinghua Univ., <a href=3D"http://about.me/xiangyang" target=3D"_blank"=
>about.me/xiangyang</a><br></div></div><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
2011/7/28 Montgomery, Douglas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dougm@nist=
.gov" target=3D"_blank">dougm@nist.gov</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">


Did your comment mean complete "AS removal" ... or defending against adding=
/removing pre-pends.<br><div><br>
dougm<br><br>
Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / In=
formation Technology Laboratory / NIST<br>
________________________________________<br></div>From: <a href=3D"mailto:sid=
r-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sidr-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mail=
to:sidr-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sidr-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Beha=
lf Of XIANG Yang [<a href=3D"mailto:xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn" target=
=3D"_blank">xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn</a>]<br>



Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:11 AM<br>
Cc: sidr wg list<br>
Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT &amp; prepending<br><div><br>
+1 support.<br>
It's import to defend "AS removal" attack.<br>
_____________________________________________________<br></div>Yang Xiang, =
PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., <a href=3D"http://about.me/xiangyang" target=3D"_bl=
ank">about.me/xiangyang</a>&lt;<a href=3D"http://about.me/xiangyang" target=3D"_=
blank">http://about.me/xiangyang</a>&gt;<br><br><br><br>
2011/7/28 Danny McPherson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:danny@tcb.net" target=3D"_blank=
">danny@tcb.net</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:danny@tcb.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>danny@tcb.net</a>&gt;&gt;<br><div><br>
Doug et al,<br>
I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me. &nbs=
p;My only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression,=
 then validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of _co=
ntiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only conti=
guous).<br><br>
I do wonder if pCNT=3D0 for transparent route servers introduces the opportun=
ity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..<br><br>
-danny<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
sidr mailing list<br></div><a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">s=
idr@ietf.org</a>&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">si=
dr@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><div><div></div><div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/sidr" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/s=
idr</a><br><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
sidr mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sidr@ie=
tf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr</a><br></div></div></block=
quote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________
sidr mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org">sidr@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/sidr</a>
</blockquote></span></body></html>

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Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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> It's import to defend "AS removal" attack.

you do not support tranparent route servers?

randy

From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Thu Jul 28 08:31:54 2011
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From: Highwayman <chris.hall@highwayman.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:31:46 -0400
To: "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov>
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Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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It's not clear to me how the system is protected from some unscrupulous tran=
sit provider setting their AS's to zero width, in order to attract more traf=
fic.  Unless there is a side channel for ASN which may validly announce them=
selves in this way ?

I agree that transparency is the minimum requirement. I do not, yet, discoun=
t the emotional demand for Route Server users to not be seen to be RS users.=
  For many years we peered at LINX and, frankly, would not have dreamt of ei=
ther using the RS, or be seen to be using it -- we were big boys -- notwiths=
tanding, we peered openly... go figure :-)

Chris
--=20
Chris Hall.                  +44 7970 277 383 (iPhone)


On 28 Jul 2011, at 11:11, "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov> wrote:

> Danny,
>=20
> Yes, that is certainly the idea if we agree to protect prepending (as oppo=
sed to just avoiding multiple Sigs in the the presence of prepending).
>=20
> If we protect prepending, the pCNT must be carried in the protocol, covere=
d by the Sig and verified ... i.e., what you suggest below .. in validation.=

>=20
> Note, that if you don't want to protect prepending ... only avoid repeatin=
g sigs ..., then you don't have to carry pCNT in the protocol.  Just update t=
he Sig verification algorithm treat sequences of repeated AS's as one.
>=20
> If we like the "translucent" approach to support RS, then we need to carry=
 pCNT in BGSSEC.   You are right we do need enhanced receive/process rules s=
uch as:
>=20
> 1. Only accept pCNT=3D0 from peers that are configured to be route servers=
.
>=20
> 2. Don't accept paths with multiple pCNT=3D0 entries in a row.
>=20
> Anyway, if we like this approach, we can talk the details of the receiving=
 rules / process rules to protect potential abuse.
>=20
> dougm
>=20
> Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / I=
nformation Technology Laboratory / NIST
> ________________________________________
> From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Danny McP=
herson [danny@tcb.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:02 AM
> To: sidr wg list
> Subject: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
>=20
> Doug et al,
> I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.  My=
 only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, the=
n validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of _contig=
uous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only contiguou=
s).
>=20
> I do wonder if pCNT=3D0 for transparent route servers introduces the oppor=
tunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..
>=20
> -danny
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr

From dougm.tlist@gmail.com  Thu Jul 28 08:53:43 2011
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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:53:32 -0400
From: Doug Montgomery <dougm.tlist@gmail.com>
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I think we would all benefit from your offer to survey the RS community to
see if solutions that did not effect PATH_LENGTH but do make the RS AS#
visible somewhere in the protocol (we can quibble about the syntax of
carrying that in AS_PATH vs PATH_SIGs later).

If one requires dropping routes with pCNT=0 from peers that are not
administratively configured to be route servers, then allowing a
unscrupulous transit provider to propogate that, now requires collusion
between two AS's.   There are other issues that come up if we consider
those scenarios.

One could think of having RS's somehow announce/declare themselves (e.g.,
an RPKI object/flag) ... But I will point out that if I am unscrupulous I
will just announce myself and proceed.

Anyway, again ... Let's get the requirement right before we talk about the
encoding / mechanisms - you offer to survey if "translucent" supports the
use case / business model of the RS community is an important step towards
getting the requirement right.

Dougm


On 7/28/11 11:31 AM, "Highwayman" <chris.hall@highwayman.com> wrote:

>It's not clear to me how the system is protected from some unscrupulous
>transit provider setting their AS's to zero width, in order to attract
>more traffic.  Unless there is a side channel for ASN which may validly
>announce themselves in this way ?
>
>I agree that transparency is the minimum requirement. I do not, yet,
>discount the emotional demand for Route Server users to not be seen to be
>RS users.  For many years we peered at LINX and, frankly, would not have
>dreamt of either using the RS, or be seen to be using it -- we were big
>boys -- notwithstanding, we peered openly... go figure :-)
>
>Chris
>-- 
>Chris Hall.                  +44 7970 277 383 (iPhone)
>
>
>On 28 Jul 2011, at 11:11, "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov> wrote:
>
>> Danny,
>> 
>> Yes, that is certainly the idea if we agree to protect prepending (as
>>opposed to just avoiding multiple Sigs in the the presence of
>>prepending).
>> 
>> If we protect prepending, the pCNT must be carried in the protocol,
>>covered by the Sig and verified ... i.e., what you suggest below .. in
>>validation.
>> 
>> Note, that if you don't want to protect prepending ... only avoid
>>repeating sigs ..., then you don't have to carry pCNT in the protocol.
>>Just update the Sig verification algorithm treat sequences of repeated
>>AS's as one.
>> 
>> If we like the "translucent" approach to support RS, then we need to
>>carry pCNT in BGSSEC.   You are right we do need enhanced
>>receive/process rules such as:
>> 
>> 1. Only accept pCNT=0 from peers that are configured to be route
>>servers.
>> 
>> 2. Don't accept paths with multiple pCNT=0 entries in a row.
>> 
>> Anyway, if we like this approach, we can talk the details of the
>>receiving rules / process rules to protect potential abuse.
>> 
>> dougm
>> 
>> Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group
>>/ Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
>> ________________________________________
>> From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Danny
>>McPherson [danny@tcb.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:02 AM
>> To: sidr wg list
>> Subject: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
>> 
>> Doug et al,
>> I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.
>>My only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for
>>compression, then validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to
>>the number of _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no
>>less, and only contiguous).
>> 
>> I do wonder if pCNT=0 for transparent route servers introduces the
>>opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..
>> 
>> -danny
>> _______________________________________________
>> sidr mailing list
>> sidr@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>> _______________________________________________
>> sidr mailing list
>> sidr@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
>_______________________________________________
>sidr mailing list
>sidr@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr



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At 11:53 AM -0400 7/28/11, Doug Montgomery wrote:
>...
>
>One could think of having RS's somehow announce/declare themselves (e.g.,
>an RPKI object/flag) ... But I will point out that if I am unscrupulous I
>will just announce myself and proceed.

yes, but if you do so, then there is a signed record of that, if we 
follow Roque's suggestion and include an EKU in the router cert.  If 
contracts for resource allocation include language that prohibits 
using the RPKI to make false assertions about RS-ness, then this 
could be a basis for revocation ...

(As someone who is going through the resource allocation process with 
an RIR, I know that there are already a lot of criteria that I have 
promised to not violate, and that provide a basis for termination of 
my allocation, so this could be added to that list :-).)

Steve

From randy@psg.com  Thu Jul 28 10:31:16 2011
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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:31:11 -0400
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
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> It's not clear to me how the system is protected from some
> unscrupulous transit provider setting their AS's to zero width, in
> order to attract more traffic.

and what is to stop them from using the transparency hack today?

randy

From shane@castlepoint.net  Thu Jul 28 12:01:11 2011
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Subject: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?
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Hi,

I have a question for the WG.  In a series of e-mail exchanges earlier =
this year, I had thought it was concluded that BGPSEC was merely being =
used as a means to express that a BGP UPDATE had passed through a series =
of ASN's, i.e.: it's an expression of a "breadcrumbs", if you will, that =
can [later] be validated by receiver that are further downstream.  IOW, =
it's not a validation of the TE policies (e.g.: AS_PATH prepending) =
applied by ASN's.

I went back to the BGPSEC requirements:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-reqs-00
... and, if I look at Req #3.19:
   3.19  A BGPsec design SHOULD NOT presume to know the intent of the
         originator of a NLRI, nor that of any AS on the AS Path.

What was the intended meaning of the word "intent"?  I thought that word =
was meant to say that BGPsec was not intended to validate TE policies =
that may, or may not, be applied to the NLRI.  If that is correct, then =
why is the WG looking at signing an BGP attribute that expresses the the =
number of times an ASN may be prepended?  Or, has the WG had a change of =
direction and I haven't kept up to speed?

I would note that the reason I'm asking the above is that it may not be =
the originator that is performing AS_PATH prepending.  Specifically, a =
customer may use a provider's BGP TE communities to ask the provider to =
perform AS_PATH prepending (selectively) on their behalf.  But, since =
these BGP TE communities are not signed, then how would a receiver of =
the NLRI know that an AS_PATH should or should not have been prepended =
by an intermediate/transit ASN?

Thanks,

-shane=

From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Thu Jul 28 12:08:10 2011
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From: Highwayman <chris.hall@highwayman.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:07:46 -0400
To: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
Cc: sidr wg list <sidr@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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On 28 Jul 2011, at 13:31, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:

>> It's not clear to me how the system is protected from some
>> unscrupulous transit provider setting their AS's to zero width, in
>> order to attract more traffic.
>=20
> and what is to stop them from using the transparency hack today?

Not sure I see much challenge in having the bar at "anything will do, provid=
ed it's not a step back from where we are now", given where we are now :-)

Chris=

From mlepinsk@bbn.com  Thu Jul 28 12:36:51 2011
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At the end of the SIDR session there were a couple of presentations on 
drafts that were not working group documents. I just wanted to agree 
with something that Wes had said at the microphone near the end of the 
meeting.

SIDR has a lot of work on its plate right now, and the area directors 
have indicated that presently they are not willing to expand the charter 
to take on additional work. Therefore, if folks have ideas about 
improving routing security, I believe it is most helpful to the working 
group if these suggestions can be cast in terms of 
improvements/enhancements/extensions/optimizations to existing SIDR work 
items (either RPKI origin validation or BGPSEC path validation).



From dougm@nist.gov  Thu Jul 28 12:43:53 2011
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From: "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov>
To: Shane Amante <shane@castlepoint.net>, "sidr@ietf.org" <sidr@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:43:18 -0400
Thread-Topic: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?
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The discussion so far has not been protecting/validating if prepending *should have* occurred.    BGPSEC protects the AS_PATH.  Prepending occurs in the AS_PATH.  Today's strawman presented one approach to protect the fact that prepending *did* occur (without comment as if it should have occurred).

With that interpretation, I don't think today's proposal violates the requirement about presuming intent.

This too is good discussion as to what the requirement is.    

If we want to protect the common encoding of prepending in the AS_PATH today's strawman provides a simple approach.   

I don't know if your example is primarily pointing out another situation where prepending occurs on ingress .... or if we you are proposing that we discuss protecting the intent to prepend.

If it is the latter - that is a significant expansion of requirements - and there are no obvious simple enhancements of bgpsec-00 mechanisms that would get us there.

dougm




Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
________________________________________
From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shane Amante [shane@castlepoint.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:00 PM
To: sidr@ietf.org
Subject: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?

Hi,

I have a question for the WG.  In a series of e-mail exchanges earlier this year, I had thought it was concluded that BGPSEC was merely being used as a means to express that a BGP UPDATE had passed through a series of ASN's, i.e.: it's an expression of a "breadcrumbs", if you will, that can [later] be validated by receiver that are further downstream.  IOW, it's not a validation of the TE policies (e.g.: AS_PATH prepending) applied by ASN's.

I went back to the BGPSEC requirements:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-reqs-00
... and, if I look at Req #3.19:
   3.19  A BGPsec design SHOULD NOT presume to know the intent of the
         originator of a NLRI, nor that of any AS on the AS Path.

What was the intended meaning of the word "intent"?  I thought that word was meant to say that BGPsec was not intended to validate TE policies that may, or may not, be applied to the NLRI.  If that is correct, then why is the WG looking at signing an BGP attribute that expresses the the number of times an ASN may be prepended?  Or, has the WG had a change of direction and I haven't kept up to speed?

I would note that the reason I'm asking the above is that it may not be the originator that is performing AS_PATH prepending.  Specifically, a customer may use a provider's BGP TE communities to ask the provider to perform AS_PATH prepending (selectively) on their behalf.  But, since these BGP TE communities are not signed, then how would a receiver of the NLRI know that an AS_PATH should or should not have been prepended by an intermediate/transit ASN?

Thanks,

-shane
_______________________________________________
sidr mailing list
sidr@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr

From mlepinsk@bbn.com  Thu Jul 28 12:53:32 2011
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At the end of the SIDR session there were a couple of presentations on 
drafts that were not working group documents. I just wanted to agree 
with something that Wes had said at the microphone near the end of the 
meeting.

SIDR has a lot of work on its plate right now, and the area directors 
have indicated that presently they are not willing to expand the charter 
to take on additional work. Therefore, if folks have ideas about 
improving routing security, I believe it is most helpful to the working 
group if these suggestions can be cast in terms of 
improvements/enhancements/extensions/optimizations to existing SIDR work 
items (either RPKI origin validation or BGPSEC path validation).

From dougm@nist.gov  Thu Jul 28 12:58:02 2011
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From: "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov>
To: Highwayman <chris.hall@highwayman.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 15:55:06 -0400
Thread-Topic: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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Chris, 

Do you think the proposed receiver processing rules below are insufficient?

dougm
 

________________________________________
From: Highwayman [chris.hall@highwayman.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:31 AM
To: Montgomery, Douglas
Cc: Danny McPherson; sidr wg list
Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending

It's not clear to me how the system is protected from some unscrupulous transit provider setting their AS's to zero width, in order to attract more traffic.  Unless there is a side channel for ASN which may validly announce themselves in this way ?

I agree that transparency is the minimum requirement. I do not, yet, discount the emotional demand for Route Server users to not be seen to be RS users.  For many years we peered at LINX and, frankly, would not have dreamt of either using the RS, or be seen to be using it -- we were big boys -- notwithstanding, we peered openly... go figure :-)

Chris
--
Chris Hall.                  +44 7970 277 383 (iPhone)


On 28 Jul 2011, at 11:11, "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov> wrote:

> Danny,
>
> Yes, that is certainly the idea if we agree to protect prepending (as opposed to just avoiding multiple Sigs in the the presence of prepending).
>
> If we protect prepending, the pCNT must be carried in the protocol, covered by the Sig and verified ... i.e., what you suggest below .. in validation.
>
> Note, that if you don't want to protect prepending ... only avoid repeating sigs ..., then you don't have to carry pCNT in the protocol.  Just update the Sig verification algorithm treat sequences of repeated AS's as one.
>
> If we like the "translucent" approach to support RS, then we need to carry pCNT in BGSSEC.   You are right we do need enhanced receive/process rules such as:
>
> 1. Only accept pCNT=0 from peers that are configured to be route servers.
>
> 2. Don't accept paths with multiple pCNT=0 entries in a row.
>
> Anyway, if we like this approach, we can talk the details of the receiving rules / process rules to protect potential abuse.
>
> dougm
>
> Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
> ________________________________________
> From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Danny McPherson [danny@tcb.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 11:02 AM
> To: sidr wg list
> Subject: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
>
> Doug et al,
> I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to me.  My only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for compression, then validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal to the number of _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no more, no less, and only contiguous).
>
> I do wonder if pCNT=0 for transparent route servers introduces the opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..
>
> -danny
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
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From: XIANG Yang <xiangy08@csnet1.cs.tsinghua.edu.cn>
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--bcaec54ee99ed1d05d04a92706af
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
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Hi Matt, and others,

I agree with you that we should concentrate to the charter of SIDR.
However, I also have some different opinions.

1.

Firstly, expiration-date almost can not restrict replay attack, since
route failures are frequently occurred.
And the expiration-date can not be very short.
>From this aspect, I think BGPSEC is also a "feasible path authentication"
method.

Actually, I just proposed a method to restrict the replay attack.
That is the Suppressed Path Padding (or we can call it Non-optimal path
padding).
With SPP we can grantee that all non-optimal path will no shorter than
optimal path.
Since optimal path usually has an obvious longer use-time,
SPP actually protect the most important optimal path.

2.

Secondly, if guys think that BGPSEC has no need to cover AS Path
Pre-pending,
It means that BGPSEC also can not defend many "AS removal=93 attacks, since
ASPP is widely used.
>From this aspect, even if BGPSEC grantees that the AS-Path represented in
the route is the same as the path through,
it has no significance since it can not defend very simple attacks.

If guys think these simple attacks are acceptable,
then we also should be able to adopt the tiny security loss in FS-BGP.
Actually the full version of FS-BGP (armed with SPP) is more security than
S-BGP.

3.

Thirdly, the cost of S-BGP is unbearable.
I remembered that Sandy said,
"if the router can not bear, then we can choose only signs some of k path
suffix from the entire n path suffixes."

So guys, if we think selectively signing path suffixes is acceptable,
I think we also can accept signing the adjacent AS triples using FS-BGP.

Because --- neighbor based routing, this is indeed how BGP works.

--

OK, I just a new guy here, and hope can make some contribution to the SIDR
WG.

Regards.
_____________________________________________________
Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., about.me/xiangyang



2011/7/29 Matt Lepinski <mlepinsk@bbn.com>

> At the end of the SIDR session there were a couple of presentations on
> drafts that were not working group documents. I just wanted to agree with
> something that Wes had said at the microphone near the end of the meeting=
.
>
> SIDR has a lot of work on its plate right now, and the area directors hav=
e
> indicated that presently they are not willing to expand the charter to ta=
ke
> on additional work. Therefore, if folks have ideas about improving routin=
g
> security, I believe it is most helpful to the working group if these
> suggestions can be cast in terms of improvements/enhancements/**extension=
s/optimizations
> to existing SIDR work items (either RPKI origin validation or BGPSEC path
> validation).
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/**listinfo/sidr<https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/sidr>
>

--bcaec54ee99ed1d05d04a92706af
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Matt, and others,<div><br></div><div>I agree with you that we should=A0c=
oncentrate to the charter of SIDR.</div><div>However, I also have some diff=
erent opinions.</div><div><br></div><div>1.</div><div><br></div><div>Firstl=
y, expiration-date almost can not restrict replay attack, since route=A0fai=
lures are frequently occurred.</div>

<div>And the expiration-date can not be very short.</div><div>From this asp=
ect, I think BGPSEC is also a &quot;feasible path authentication&quot; meth=
od.</div><div><br></div><div>Actually, I just proposed a method to restrict=
 the replay attack.</div>

<div>That is the Suppressed Path Padding (or we can call it Non-optimal pat=
h padding).</div><div>With SPP we can grantee that all non-optimal path wil=
l no shorter than optimal path.</div><div>Since optimal path usually has an=
 obvious longer use-time, SPP=A0actually=A0protect the most important optim=
al path.</div>

<div><br></div><div>2.</div><div><br></div><div>Secondly, if guys think tha=
t BGPSEC has no need to cover AS Path Pre-pending,</div><div>It means that =
BGPSEC also can not defend many &quot;AS removal=93 attacks, since ASPP is =
widely used.</div>

<div>From this aspect, even if BGPSEC=A0grantees that=A0the AS-Path represe=
nted in the route is the same as the path through,</div><div>it has no sign=
ificance since it can not defend very simple attacks.</div><div><br></div>
<div>
If guys think these simple attacks are acceptable,</div><div>then we also s=
hould be able to adopt the tiny security loss in FS-BGP.</div><div>Actually=
=A0the full version of FS-BGP (armed with SPP) is more security than S-BGP.=
</div>

<div><br></div><div>3.</div><div><br></div><div>Thirdly, the cost of S-BGP =
is unbearable.</div><div>I remembered that Sandy said,</div><div>&quot;if t=
he router can not bear, then we can choose only signs some of k path suffix=
 from the entire n path suffixes.&quot;</div>

<div><br></div><div>So guys, if we think selectively signing path suffixes =
is=A0acceptable,</div><div>I think we also can accept signing the adjacent =
AS triples using FS-BGP.</div><div><br></div><div>Because --- neighbor base=
d routing, this is indeed how BGP works.</div>

<div><br></div><div>--</div><div><br></div><div>OK, I just a new guy here, =
and hope can make some contribution to the SIDR WG.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Regards.</div><div><div><div><div>_______________________________________=
______________<br>

Yang Xiang, PhD student, Tsinghua Univ., <a href=3D"http://about.me/xiangya=
ng" target=3D"_blank">about.me/xiangyang</a><br></div></div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2011/7/29 Matt Lepinski <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mlepinsk@bbn.com">mlepinsk@bbn.com</a>&gt;</span><b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">

At the end of the SIDR session there were a couple of presentations on draf=
ts that were not working group documents. I just wanted to agree with somet=
hing that Wes had said at the microphone near the end of the meeting.<br>


<br>
SIDR has a lot of work on its plate right now, and the area directors have =
indicated that presently they are not willing to expand the charter to take=
 on additional work. Therefore, if folks have ideas about improving routing=
 security, I believe it is most helpful to the working group if these sugge=
stions can be cast in terms of improvements/enhancements/<u></u>extensions/=
optimizations to existing SIDR work items (either RPKI origin validation or=
 BGPSEC path validation).<br>


<br>
<br>
______________________________<u></u>_________________<br>
sidr mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sidr@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/<u></u>listinfo/sidr</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--bcaec54ee99ed1d05d04a92706af--

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Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & prepending
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At 11:02 AM -0400 7/28/11, Danny McPherson wrote:
>Doug et al,
>I like the general objective of pCNT and this seems a good idea to 
>me.  My only comment at the microphone was that if we add this for 
>compression, then validation should require that pCNT MUST be equal 
>to the number of _contiguous ASx appearances in the path (i.e., no 
>more, no less, and only contiguous).
>
>I do wonder if pCNT=0 for transparent route servers introduces the 
>opportunity for some sort of downgrade attack of sorts..
>
>-danny

There is a valid secruity concern when we allow 0 as a valid pCNT value.

I think Roque's suggestion of an EKU to mark an EE cert as being 
associated with a route server is helpful here.  Yes, this is a 
self-assertion, and thus not authoritative. But, it could be a 
convenient mechanism to assist in configuration for checking when 
it's OK to receive an update with a 0 pCNT value. Specifically, if we 
agree that an ISP knows when a configured peer is an RS, then we can 
mandate that an ISP check to make sure that an update received from a 
peer with a 0 pCNT is, in fact, coming from what it believes is an 
RS. Having a marker in a cert that says "HI, I'm an RS" at least 
makes this intent clear.  (One also could imagine that, since IXPs 
are well known and the route servers at IXPs are known, a third party 
could scan the RPKI looking for certs that claim to be associated 
with RSes, and checking to see if they appear to be legit.)

BGPSEC also could mandate some configuration capabilities that enable 
ASes further along a path to filter routes based on 0 pCNT values in 
a path. For example, one might say that any AS can be configured to 
drop a route with 2 or more 0 pCNT hops in a row, or more than 2 
total, or whatever.  If we can reach agreement on any general rules 
with regard to 0 pCNT values, these rules can become part of the 
validation standard.

Steve

From shane@castlepoint.net  Thu Jul 28 14:18:05 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?
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On Jul 28, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Montgomery, Douglas wrote:

> The discussion so far has not been protecting/validating if prepending =
*should have* occurred.    BGPSEC protects the AS_PATH.  Prepending =
occurs in the AS_PATH.  Today's strawman presented one approach to =
protect the fact that prepending *did* occur (without comment as if it =
should have occurred).

Right.  But, if BGPSEC is not "commenting" whether AS_PATH prepending =
should, or should not, have occurred, then wouldn't it be more =
straightforward to avoid representing AS_PATH prepending in BGPSEC's =
AS_PATH Attr?  IOW, isn't the intent of the BGPSEC AS_PATH signature to =
"simply" represent the ASN's over which the BGP UPDATE has travelled?  =
Why does AS_PATH prepending *need* representation in the BGPSEC AS_PATH =
Attr, (or, what does it help with wrt BGPSEC)?

The SIDR WG instigated the deprecation of AS_SET's for reasons of =
simplification.  If WG really believes in simplification, then why does =
that not apply here wrt AS_PATH prepending?


> With that interpretation, I don't think today's proposal violates the =
requirement about presuming intent.
>=20
> This too is good discussion as to what the requirement is.   =20
>=20
> If we want to protect the common encoding of prepending in the AS_PATH =
today's strawman provides a simple approach.  =20
>=20
> I don't know if your example is primarily pointing out another =
situation where prepending occurs on ingress .... or if we you are =
proposing that we discuss protecting the intent to prepend.
>=20
> If it is the latter - that is a significant expansion of requirements =
- and there are no obvious simple enhancements of bgpsec-00 mechanisms =
that would get us there.

So, I grudgingly agree with the requirement, as written, that a BGPSEC =
AS_PATH signature should not describe/express intent.  (I'd feel better =
if the requirement were changed to say "does not" describe/express =
intent, but I'm not sure there is consensus to do so ...).

Ultimately, my concern is the more "faithfully" the AS_PATH appears to =
be represented in the BGPSEC AS_PATH Attr (i.e.: it does include AS_PATH =
prepending), then:
a)  The more potential confusion there might be with operators who =
aren't well versed in SIDR incorrectly /assuming/ that it does describe =
intent[1]; and/or,
b)  The more potential/temptation there may be for vendors to use the =
BGPSEC AS_PATH Attr in BGP path selection (i.e.: as the AS_PATH length =
tie-breaker) in place of the legacy AS_PATH Attribute.  This has =
implications wrt control plane scaling w/out any appreciable benefit.

-shane

[1] Yeah, yeah, they should RTFM ...


>=20
> dougm
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group =
/ Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
> ________________________________________
> From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shane =
Amante [shane@castlepoint.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:00 PM
> To: sidr@ietf.org
> Subject: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I have a question for the WG.  In a series of e-mail exchanges earlier =
this year, I had thought it was concluded that BGPSEC was merely being =
used as a means to express that a BGP UPDATE had passed through a series =
of ASN's, i.e.: it's an expression of a "breadcrumbs", if you will, that =
can [later] be validated by receiver that are further downstream.  IOW, =
it's not a validation of the TE policies (e.g.: AS_PATH prepending) =
applied by ASN's.
>=20
> I went back to the BGPSEC requirements:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-reqs-00
> ... and, if I look at Req #3.19:
>   3.19  A BGPsec design SHOULD NOT presume to know the intent of the
>         originator of a NLRI, nor that of any AS on the AS Path.
>=20
> What was the intended meaning of the word "intent"?  I thought that =
word was meant to say that BGPsec was not intended to validate TE =
policies that may, or may not, be applied to the NLRI.  If that is =
correct, then why is the WG looking at signing an BGP attribute that =
expresses the the number of times an ASN may be prepended?  Or, has the =
WG had a change of direction and I haven't kept up to speed?
>=20
> I would note that the reason I'm asking the above is that it may not =
be the originator that is performing AS_PATH prepending.  Specifically, =
a customer may use a provider's BGP TE communities to ask the provider =
to perform AS_PATH prepending (selectively) on their behalf.  But, since =
these BGP TE communities are not signed, then how would a receiver of =
the NLRI know that an AS_PATH should or should not have been prepended =
by an intermediate/transit ASN?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> -shane
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr


From dougm@nist.gov  Thu Jul 28 15:06:13 2011
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From: "Montgomery, Douglas" <dougm@nist.gov>
To: Shane Amante <shane@castlepoint.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 18:05:41 -0400
Thread-Topic: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?
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Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?
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Shane,

Just to be clear if you look at my second slide from today ... BGPSEC uses a PATH_SIGs attribute to protect the existing BGP4 AS_PATH attribute.   That is, there is no distinct BGPSEC_AS_PATH.   

Clearly, that could be ... and has been discussed ... done differently.   But in the protocol-00 spec, that is the semantic/encoding.

So the situation is that prepended AS's already appear today in the attribute we are trying to protect.   The protocol-00 spec would have you add a distinct signature for each element (i.e., including prepends) in the AS_PATH.  The design-choices document notes that this was flagged as an issue we would clearly want to revisit and optimize in one way or the other.

But the position we start from is that prepends are already in the AS_PATH and protected by individual Sigs.

If you look at the straw man requirements slide, there are two issues to consider.

1. Avoid duplicating Sigs for prepended AS's in the AS_PATH.

2. Protect prepended AS's with the BGPSEC PATH_Sig.

Those really are two distinct options ... 

If we want:

1, but not 2 - we can just rewrite the sig generation / verification rules to "skip" consecutive repeated AS's.  No need to carry or sign over pCNT.

If we want:

2, but not 1 - do nothing, that is what the protocol-00 spec does now.   1 sig per AS_PATH element, including prepends.

If we want 1 and 2 - you get the strawman proposed today -

Anyway, just wanted to be clear that currently we protect the existing AS_PATH, which already has prepends.

dougm





Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
________________________________________
From: Shane Amante [shane@castlepoint.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 5:18 PM
To: Montgomery, Douglas
Cc: sidr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?

On Jul 28, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Montgomery, Douglas wrote:

> The discussion so far has not been protecting/validating if prepending *should have* occurred.    BGPSEC protects the AS_PATH.  Prepending occurs in the AS_PATH.  Today's strawman presented one approach to protect the fact that prepending *did* occur (without comment as if it should have occurred).

Right.  But, if BGPSEC is not "commenting" whether AS_PATH prepending should, or should not, have occurred, then wouldn't it be more straightforward to avoid representing AS_PATH prepending in BGPSEC's AS_PATH Attr?  IOW, isn't the intent of the BGPSEC AS_PATH signature to "simply" represent the ASN's over which the BGP UPDATE has travelled?  Why does AS_PATH prepending *need* representation in the BGPSEC AS_PATH Attr, (or, what does it help with wrt BGPSEC)?

The SIDR WG instigated the deprecation of AS_SET's for reasons of simplification.  If WG really believes in simplification, then why does that not apply here wrt AS_PATH prepending?


> With that interpretation, I don't think today's proposal violates the requirement about presuming intent.
>
> This too is good discussion as to what the requirement is.
>
> If we want to protect the common encoding of prepending in the AS_PATH today's strawman provides a simple approach.
>
> I don't know if your example is primarily pointing out another situation where prepending occurs on ingress .... or if we you are proposing that we discuss protecting the intent to prepend.
>
> If it is the latter - that is a significant expansion of requirements - and there are no obvious simple enhancements of bgpsec-00 mechanisms that would get us there.

So, I grudgingly agree with the requirement, as written, that a BGPSEC AS_PATH signature should not describe/express intent.  (I'd feel better if the requirement were changed to say "does not" describe/express intent, but I'm not sure there is consensus to do so ...).

Ultimately, my concern is the more "faithfully" the AS_PATH appears to be represented in the BGPSEC AS_PATH Attr (i.e.: it does include AS_PATH prepending), then:
a)  The more potential confusion there might be with operators who aren't well versed in SIDR incorrectly /assuming/ that it does describe intent[1]; and/or,
b)  The more potential/temptation there may be for vendors to use the BGPSEC AS_PATH Attr in BGP path selection (i.e.: as the AS_PATH length tie-breaker) in place of the legacy AS_PATH Attribute.  This has implications wrt control plane scaling w/out any appreciable benefit.

-shane

[1] Yeah, yeah, they should RTFM ...


>
> dougm
>
>
>
>
> Doug Montgomery - Manager Internet and Scalable Systems Research Group / Information Technology Laboratory / NIST
> ________________________________________
> From: sidr-bounces@ietf.org [sidr-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shane Amante [shane@castlepoint.net]
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 3:00 PM
> To: sidr@ietf.org
> Subject: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a question for the WG.  In a series of e-mail exchanges earlier this year, I had thought it was concluded that BGPSEC was merely being used as a means to express that a BGP UPDATE had passed through a series of ASN's, i.e.: it's an expression of a "breadcrumbs", if you will, that can [later] be validated by receiver that are further downstream.  IOW, it's not a validation of the TE policies (e.g.: AS_PATH prepending) applied by ASN's.
>
> I went back to the BGPSEC requirements:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sidr-bgpsec-reqs-00
> ... and, if I look at Req #3.19:
>   3.19  A BGPsec design SHOULD NOT presume to know the intent of the
>         originator of a NLRI, nor that of any AS on the AS Path.
>
> What was the intended meaning of the word "intent"?  I thought that word was meant to say that BGPsec was not intended to validate TE policies that may, or may not, be applied to the NLRI.  If that is correct, then why is the WG looking at signing an BGP attribute that expresses the the number of times an ASN may be prepended?  Or, has the WG had a change of direction and I haven't kept up to speed?
>
> I would note that the reason I'm asking the above is that it may not be the originator that is performing AS_PATH prepending.  Specifically, a customer may use a provider's BGP TE communities to ask the provider to perform AS_PATH prepending (selectively) on their behalf.  But, since these BGP TE communities are not signed, then how would a receiver of the NLRI know that an AS_PATH should or should not have been prepended by an intermediate/transit ASN?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -shane
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr


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> I think Roque's suggestion of an EKU to mark an EE cert as being =
associated with a route server is helpful here.  Yes, this is a =
self-assertion, and thus not authoritative.
> But, it could be a convenient mechanism to assist in configuration for =
checking when it's OK to receive an update with a 0 pCNT value. =
Specifically, if we agree that an ISP knows when a configured peer is an =
RS, then we can mandate that an ISP check to make sure that an update =
received from a peer with a 0 pCNT is, in fact, coming from what it =
believes is an RS. Having a marker in a cert that says "HI, I'm an RS" =
at least makes this intent clear.  (One also could imagine that, since =
IXPs are well known and the route servers at IXPs are known, a third =
party could scan the RPKI looking for certs that claim to be associated =
with RSes, and checking to see if they appear to be legit.)

About this last statement, the RIRs keep a list of IP Addresses for the =
IXPs, we could ask them to sign that list and include their ASN to =
increase the "confidence" that they really are RS. This could be checked =
by the validator.

Roque


> BGPSEC also could mandate some configuration capabilities that enable =
ASes further along a path to filter routes based on 0 pCNT values in a =
path. For example, one might say that any AS can be configured to drop a =
route with 2 or more 0 pCNT hops in a row, or more than 2 total, or =
whatever.  If we can reach agreement on any general rules with regard to =
0 pCNT values, these rules can become part of the validation standard.
>=20
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> sidr mailing list
> sidr@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sidr


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>I think Roque's suggestion of an =
EKU to mark an EE cert as being associated with a route server is =
helpful here. &nbsp;Yes, this is a self-assertion, and thus not =
authoritative. </div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>But, it =
could be a convenient mechanism to assist in configuration for checking =
when it's OK to receive an update with a 0 pCNT value. Specifically, if =
we agree that an ISP knows when a configured peer is an RS, then we can =
mandate that an ISP check to make sure that an update received from a =
peer with a 0 pCNT is, in fact, coming from what it believes is an RS. =
Having a marker in a cert that says "HI, I'm an RS" at least makes this =
intent clear. &nbsp;(One also could imagine that, since IXPs are well =
known and the route servers at IXPs are known, a third party could scan =
the RPKI looking for certs that claim to be associated with RSes, and =
checking to see if they appear to be legit.)<font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#000000"><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#144FAE"><br></font></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Abou=
t this last statement, the RIRs keep a list of IP Addresses for the =
IXPs, we could ask them to sign that list and include their ASN to =
increase the "confidence" that they really are RS. This could be checked =
by the =
validator.</div><div><br></div><div>Roque</div><div><div><br></div><br><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div>BGPSEC also could mandate some configuration =
capabilities that enable ASes further along a path to filter routes =
based on 0 pCNT values in a path. For example, one might say that any AS =
can be configured to drop a route with 2 or more 0 pCNT hops in a row, =
or more than 2 total, or whatever. &nbsp;If we can reach agreement on =
any general rules with regard to 0 pCNT values, these rules can become =
part of the validation standard.<br><br></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>Steve<br>______________________________________________=
_<br>sidr mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:sidr@ietf.org">sidr@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/sidr<br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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From randy@psg.com  Thu Jul 28 16:15:37 2011
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Subject: Re: [sidr] pCNT & (AS_PATH) prepending: Is it in scope?
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> The SIDR WG instigated the deprecation of AS_SET's for reasons of
> simplification.  If WG really believes in simplification, then why
> does that not apply here wrt AS_PATH prepending?

as sets are essentially unused.  path prepending is widely used.

randy

From chris.hall@highwayman.com  Thu Jul 28 17:42:53 2011
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Doug Montgomery wrote (on Thu 28-Jul-2011 at 11:54 -0500);
...
> I think we would all benefit from your offer to survey the RS
> community to see if solutions that did not effect PATH_LENGTH but do
> make the RS AS# visible somewhere in the protocol (we can quibble
> about the syntax of carrying that in AS_PATH vs PATH_SIGs later).

Will do.

Chris


From gih@apnic.net  Thu Jul 28 17:54:26 2011
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On 29/07/2011, at 8:21 AM, Roque Gagliano wrote:

>> I think Roque's suggestion of an EKU to mark an EE cert as being =
associated with a route server is helpful here.  Yes, this is a =
self-assertion, and thus not authoritative.
>> But, it could be a convenient mechanism to assist in configuration =
for checking when it's OK to receive an update with a 0 pCNT value. =
Specifically, if we agree that an ISP knows when a configured peer is an =
RS, then we can mandate that an ISP check to make sure that an update =
received from a peer with a 0 pCNT is, in fact, coming from what it =
believes is an RS. Having a marker in a cert that says "HI, I'm an RS" =
at least makes this intent clear.  (One also could imagine that, since =
IXPs are well known and the route servers at IXPs are known, a third =
party could scan the RPKI looking for certs that claim to be associated =
with RSes, and checking to see if they appear to be legit.)
>=20
> About this last statement, the RIRs keep a list of IP Addresses for =
the IXPs, we could ask them to sign that list and include their ASN to =
increase the "confidence" that they really are RS. This could be checked =
by the validator.
>=20

I am not sure that the RIRs really are appropriate reference points as =
to the _purpose_ to which ASes are put to use from day to day, and much =
the same applies to the purpose of the use of IP addresses in routing.

I suggest that if would be perhaps better to look elsewhere and even to =
examine the validity of the assumed need for the injection of additional =
mechanisms of confidence into what I would phrase as a "policy =
conformance" issue rather than a "detection of lying in routing" issue.

  Geoff


