Subject: [Simple] Pseudo real time text transmission with SIMPLE

From: "Gunnar Hellstrom" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 23:06:32 +0100

You remember the intensive discussion we had this summer about using SIMPLE protocols for
real time text transmission.

Occasionally that idea pops up again. The benefit is said to be higher probability for
mainstream implementation if the same protocol is reused for both messaging and real time.

We decided before, that real time text transmission of the type we do with RTP in RFC2793,
with transmission at every 300 ms, is out of scope for SIMPLE.

But what if we define a pseudo real time mode, e.g. transmitting at some seconds interval
( when there is something to transmit), and also when the user has typed a sentence
delimiter.

What are the feelings about suitable minimum transmission intervals in a session from a
network point of view:

1. If SIP MESSAGE is used for the transmission?

2. If MSRP directly between UA:s is used for the transmission?

( For the moment not considering what the real time user feels about this kind of
communication, that may be next question.)

Regards

Gunnar

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Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor AB
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SE 121 37 Johanneshov
SWEDEN
+46 8 556 002 03
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www.omnitor.se
[email-masked]
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From: "Gunnar Hellstrom" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 05:59:50 +0100

Yes, without considering usability aspects, and without considering interoperability
aspects, I just want to get some grip of how often the SIMPLE experts think it is
reasonable for a UA to:

1. Send a SIP MESSAGE

2. Send an MSRP SEND

0.3 seconds, 0.5 seconds, 1 second, 2 seconds, 5 seconds, 10 seconds?

The payload would be 1 - 100 UTF-8 characters depending on the buffer time and the
intensity of the sender.

Gunnar

>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
>Behalf Of Gregg Vanderheiden
>Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 11:35 PM
>To: 'Gunnar Hellstrom'; 'SIMPLE'
>Cc: 'Toip list'
>Subject: RE: Pseudo real time text transmission with SIMPLE
>
>
>A fundamental question may be interoperability.
>
>If this is just 'effective text conversation while in another interactive
>medium that involves voice conversation"  then this would not come up.
>
>If this was "what will this group use for telephone equivalence" then it
>does.
>
>I can see however, how these two questions could be addressed separately.
>
>
>Gregg
>
> -- ------------------------------
>Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>Professor - Ind. Engr. & BioMed Engr.
>Director - Trace R & D Center
>University of Wisconsin-Madison
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]] On Behalf
>Of Gunnar Hellstrom
>Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:07 PM
>To: SIMPLE
>Cc: Toip list
>Subject: Pseudo real time text transmission with SIMPLE
>
>-
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---

From: Paul Kyzivat <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 09:08:40 -0500

> aspects, I just want to get some grip of how often the SIMPLE experts think it is

You have to make a lot of assumptions to answer this, so there will be 
no good answer in general.

> 1. Send a SIP MESSAGE

This is not supposed to be used for session mode type of usage, only for 
a "page" mode. How often does it make sense to page someone? And how 
many people might you want to page at a given time.

In the short term, while sending out pages to a list of recipients, you 
might be sending these as fast as you can. But over longer periods of 
time I would expect the frequency to be one every several minutes or 
even hours.

This is for a UA supporting an individual user. A gateway or other 
server could do almost anything.

> The payload would be 1 - 100 UTF-8 characters depending on the buffer time and the

If you are talking about pure typing, then this could be about as often 
as a user can type a line of text, over brief periods.

But don't forget file transfer via MSRP - something we imagine it may 
well be used for. Our usual example is tranferring the Lord of the Rings 
video - I think the number is 5gb or something like that. From an 
individual UA that isn't doing anything else, this could be done as a 
single SEND, in which case the rate wouldn't be very high. If there are 
other things going on, and sharing a connection to a relay, then it 
might get chunked into 2k chunks. In that case, over a 10MB/S 
connection, if I've done the arithmetic right, it could come to 
1.6ms/send for this stream, plus an equal number for the other sends 
that cause it to be chunked.

But these aren't very realistic numbers on average.

	Paul

---

From: "Gregg Vanderheiden" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:34:50 -0600

Gregg

-----Original Message-----

You remember the intensive discussion we had this summer about using SIMPLE
protocols for
real time text transmission.

Occasionally that idea pops up again. The benefit is said to be higher
probability for
mainstream implementation if the same protocol is reused for both messaging
and real time.

We decided before, that real time text transmission of the type we do with
RTP in RFC2793,
with transmission at every 300 ms, is out of scope for SIMPLE.

But what if we define a pseudo real time mode, e.g. transmitting at some
seconds interval
( when there is something to transmit), and also when the user has typed a
sentence
delimiter.

What are the feelings about suitable minimum transmission intervals in a
session from a
network point of view:

( For the moment not considering what the real time user feels about this
kind of
communication, that may be next question.)

Regards

Gunnar

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