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Hopefully this is useful for testing SIP UAs that implement SIMPLE specifications. An MSRP relay will be added to this test rig in January 2008, currently is work in progress at http://msrprelay.org. If anyone wishes to test MSRP clients against it please contact me offline. Kind regards, Adrian Georgescu _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From simple-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 03 16:34:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzIvD-0001Am-Dw; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:33:47 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IzIvB-0001Af-Uu for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:33:45 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzIvB-000194-KW for simple@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:33:45 -0500 Received: from dhcp-466f.ietf70.org ([130.129.70.111] helo=postfix.mail.localhost) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzIv8-000863-Qk for simple@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:33:43 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by postfix.mail.localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3010389C5C for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:33:39 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <72AF030B-F6C6-4F4B-9DD3-73DFD5DA3BE0@ag-projects.com> From: Adrian Georgescu To: simple@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 13:33:39 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Subject: [Simple] SIP SIMPLE test rig (corrected URL) X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org Hello, The URL is http://sip2sip.info Kind regards, Adrian Georgescu _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From gubrad_Harrow@ctelettronica.com Tue Dec 04 05:37:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzV9j-0002FA-SV for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:37:35 -0500 Received: from [91.64.127.5] (helo=[91.64.127.5]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzV9i-00084K-Tt for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Dec 2007 05:37:35 -0500 Received: from Sandro ([139.132.76.185] helo=Sandro) by [91.64.127.5] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1RBycx-000KBO-fU for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:38:01 +0100 Message-ID: <6C027372.3E14E742@ctelettronica.com> Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2007 11:37:33 +0100 From: "gubrad Harrow" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: simple-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: niregnag Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 CAUTION! she might be tight when you reach your new size, stretching
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From RaphaeljudicableAvila@lohud.com Wed Dec 05 02:06:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzoKW-0007QU-SN; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:06:00 -0500 Received: from [203.150.134.11] (helo=com1) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IzoKW-0005E1-9O; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 02:06:00 -0500 Received: from lowe by lohud.com with SMTP id 70FHLRNnjo for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 14:05:57 -0700 From: "Ali Hess" To: , Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izx5O-0003n3-AI; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:26:58 -0500 Received: from [190.156.93.64] (helo=helisa) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Izx5N-0005BA-Ri; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 11:26:58 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host12976999.biblegateway.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id 7LR6cwBr26.487120.Skg.jZO.7446969884934 for ; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 11:26:40 +0500 Message-ID: <3043d01c8375b$a55a76a0$2400a8c0@HELISA> From: "Hilary Bynum" To: Cc: , =20

Package	Quantity	Price in your = local drugstore*	Our = price	Learn More Now
10 tabs	20 doses	~~$99.95~~	$34.49
30 tabs	60 doses	~~$299.95~~	$88.50
60 tabs	120 doses	~~$449.95~~	$141.02
90 tabs	180 doses	~~$769.95~~	$176.40
180 tabs	360 doses	~~$1299.95~~	$298.46

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Package	Quantity	Price in your = local drugstore*	Our = price	Learn More Now
10 tabs	20 doses	~~$99.95~~	$34.49
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60 tabs	120 doses	~~$449.95~~	$141.02
90 tabs	180 doses	~~$769.95~~	$176.40
180 tabs	360 doses	~~$1299.95~~	$298.46

When you are young and stressed = up…
When you are aged and never give up…
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Come find out. http://pritanari.com.cn/ From simple-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 05 16:32:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J01r8-0001f0-Ss; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:32:34 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J01r7-0001ek-Jb for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:32:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J01r7-0001ea-9n for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:32:33 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J01r6-0005WL-NO for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:32:33 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Dec 2007 13:32:32 -0800 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lB5LWW8j016429; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:32:32 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lB5LWCoD016204; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 21:32:32 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:32:29 -0800 Received: from [10.21.94.113] ([10.21.94.113]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 5 Dec 2007 13:32:29 -0800 Message-ID: <47571913.8020309@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:33:07 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henning Schulzrinne Subject: Re: [Simple] New draft on music, video, game, web status References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Dec 2007 21:32:29.0422 (UTC) FILETIME=[565E38E0:01C83786] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1927; t=1196890352; x=1197754352; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Simple]=20New=20draft=20on=20music, =20video, =20game, =20web=20status |Sender:=20; bh=8if0KE6G2sVwwSnbs280T+4mgKgsjGFr2eriMXi2cZs=; b=x9eXbe0PErRyqVDhTKziJn9fimH1a0fhslhKhvrjs/zbcZwZw38lZMnxwmfrw5QF8/phVusE aD4kXbf8pU2Z2lBLgKlfjPLNVFSvhw+iCnUy64OVWhCIEjBwDRBlqPYb; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: simple@ietf.org X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org I think this is a good draft, and a valuable thing to do. I'd like to see it move forward. Its also one of those things that, I would hope, does not require extensive scrutiny (especially given it builds on XMPP work already done), we can just move it along without spending a ton of time micro-tuning it. My only comment is that, on the topic of showing what website users are looking at, that this might be used for shared web browsing. I do not believe it will work for that, because cookies and other things would cause both users to actually see different content. So I'd suggest removing that sentence. Thanks, Jonathan R. Henning Schulzrinne wrote: > I just submitted > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-schulzrinne-simple-ami-00.txt > > It's a blatant rip-off of the functionality found in XMPP, for > indicating the music, video and games that the presentity is enjoying > (one hopes) and the web pages he or she is browsing, with a few minor > extensions. Given Twitter and Facebook, there's clearly a demonstrated > need for this type of functionality. Almost all modern IM clients, such > as AIM and iChat, support at least the what-am-I-listening-to > functionality. > > The draft was motivated by earlier work, draft-zhao-simple-aipid-00, and > replaces it. > > Before I fill in items such as the schema and examples, I'd appreciate > comments on whether this is perceived to be on the right track. > > Henning > > > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple > -- Jonathan D. 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------=_NextPart_000_0C34_01C837FF.0B795BB0-- From simple-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 11:36:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jhp-0007Gj-PY; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:36:09 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jhp-0007Gc-8L for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:36:09 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jho-0007GU-U9 for simple@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:36:08 -0500 Received: from jalapeno.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.29.5]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Jho-0002Ek-K5 for simple@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 11:36:08 -0500 Received: from dhcp-3471.ietf70.org (dhcp-3471.ietf70.org [130.129.52.113]) (user=hgs10 mech=PLAIN bits=0) by jalapeno.cc.columbia.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lB6Ga69d013849 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:36:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: From: Henning Schulzrinne To: simple@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <47571913.8020309@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 11:36:06 -0500 References: <47571913.8020309@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 128.59.29.5 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Subject: [Simple] draft-schulzrinne-simple-ami-00 (music/video/game/web) X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org The major unresolved issue for the draft (*) is whether to make this an event package or a PIDF extension. My inclination is to use an event package, following the example of the very vaguely related draft draft-garcia-sipping-file-event-package-01 (A Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Event Package and Data Format for Describing Files). I'd appreciate input on this question. Henning (*) http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-schulzrinne-simple-ami-00.txt _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From simple-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 13:44:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Lhl-0000xp-9Z; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:44:13 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Lhj-0000xj-PS for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:44:11 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Lhj-0000xb-Fk for simple@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:44:11 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Lhh-0006xf-1I for simple@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:44:11 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2007 10:44:08 -0800 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lB6Ii8On032274 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:44:08 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lB6Iheqv022128 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:44:08 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:44:05 -0800 Received: from [10.21.90.173] ([10.21.90.173]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 6 Dec 2007 10:44:05 -0800 Message-ID: <4758431C.4040900@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2007 13:44:44 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Windows/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simple WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2007 18:44:05.0784 (UTC) FILETIME=[FA8B2980:01C83837] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1829; t=1196966648; x=1197830648; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20other=20parameters=20around=20gaming=20for=20the=20AMI=20docu ment |Sender:=20; bh=gSYuT3vD0UTbx1aQIIeZphsHiiN7+ZB8+1QWOlES5xc=; b=WfYIIYgkkVoPf7P9YMv75TQcWp4euKCWyUe/0JEIXQPrKh6arvbIOh5JWSb3nHK9hjyeE7ou RcxwnxTEEThCt1KjmjOyunxPsHs8ReCUfExEFSGFE4wrPidmdXkPWzd6; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Subject: [Simple] other parameters around gaming for the AMI document X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org A few suggestions for additional parameters that would be useful for games in draft-schulzrinne-simple-ami, specifically MMOs (massively multiplayer online games): guild: string, indicating the guild or clan or equivalent of the user location: string, name of the realm or zone that the character is in (i.e., Stormwind) coordinates: in-game coordinates for the location grouped: boolean, whether the character is currently in a group instanced: boolean, whether the character is currently in an instanced area (i.e., Sunken Temple) lfg: looking-for-group - whether the character is seeking a group. contains a list of strings with quests or instances that the user is looking to find a group for class: string, the class of the character (i.e., druid, priest, warrior) race: string, race of the character (i.e., night elf, gnome) faction: "side" or faction for the character (i.e., alliance vs. horde) idle: int, amount of time the character has been idle dead: boolean, whether the character is dead or not I can think of a bunch more too. This does start to raise the question about whether this is presence or another package. One can imagine having a minimal amount of information in presence, and having more for a specific event package for gamers. So for example the gaming package would be implemented perhaps in clients like steam, xfire or xbox live. Now whether any of those possible clients CARE about a standard in this area - well thats a good question. -Jonathan R. -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 499 Thornall St. Cisco Fellow Edison, NJ 08837 Cisco, Voice Technology Group jdrosen@cisco.com http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (408) 902-3084 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From AntonewhomeverWooten@heritage.org Thu Dec 06 14:31:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0MR7-0008Pf-S9; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:31:05 -0500 Received: from 84.122.64.47.dyn.user.ono.com ([84.122.64.47] helo=portatil) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0MR7-0000Xa-9z; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 14:31:05 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host17655934.heritage.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id 6B5iT1Nw43.205293.HTv.TB2.8157545319987 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:30:50 -0100 Message-ID: <99c3201c8383e$8938fbc0$6401a8c0@portatil> From: "Antone Velazquez" To: Subject: Approval process Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 20:30:50 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_99C2E_01C8383E.8938FBC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Antivirus: avast! 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------=_NextPart_000_82672_01C8384E.5F61AB20-- From simple-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 06 16:50:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0OcA-0001D7-6K; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:50:38 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Oc8-0000nm-G4 for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:50:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Oc7-0000g5-Uk for simple@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:50:35 -0500 Received: from smtp3.andrew.com ([198.135.207.235] helo=andrew.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Oc5-0004oO-Ss for simple@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:50:35 -0500 X-SEF-Processed: 5_0_0_910__2007_12_06_16_01_32 X-SEF-16EBA1E9-99E8-4E1D-A1CA-4971F5510AF: 1 Received: from acdcexbh1.andrew.com [10.86.20.91] by smtp3.andrew.com - SurfControl E-mail Filter (5.2.1); Thu, 06 Dec 2007 16:01:14 -0600 Received: from AHQEX1.andrew.com ([10.86.20.21]) by acdcexbh1.andrew.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:50:15 -0600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Simple] other parameters around gaming for the AMI document Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 15:50:13 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4758431C.4040900@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Simple] other parameters around gaming for the AMI document Thread-Index: Acg4OAly2VeucAIiR7OaegZtFZZFFQAGCNGw References: <4758431C.4040900@cisco.com> From: "Thomson, Martin" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" , "Simple WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2007 21:50:15.0049 (UTC) FILETIME=[FBF1BF90:01C83851] X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Cc: X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0747461471==" Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org --===============0747461471== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple --===============0747461471==-- From NatashaparenthesesMeza@apache.org Thu Dec 06 17:11:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Owk-0003DB-GT; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:11:54 -0500 Received: from cpe-76-181-100-39.columbus.res.rr.com ([76.181.100.39] helo=acer684c9a655d.columbus.rr.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Owk-0004uQ-8V; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 17:11:54 -0500 Received: from sproul by apache.org with SMTP id MCkLAQuxS6 for ; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 17:11:43 +0500 From: "Hattie Colbert" To: , Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Smr-0003W4-Bi; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:17:57 -0500 Received: from c-76-110-58-71.hsd1.fl.comcast.net ([76.110.58.71] helo=RADIANCE.hsd1.fl.comcast.net.) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Smp-00071I-CT; Thu, 06 Dec 2007 21:17:57 -0500 Received: from [76.110.58.71] by excellent.cnchost.com; Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:21:20 -0800 Message-ID: <01c83834$cc791000$473a6e4c@sandra.lockwood> From: "Kallie Kennedy" To: Subject: super parents, I believe this message Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 18:21:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Hi I'm 27 years old I read your profile online and I was intrested in getting to know you better Reply to me and tell me about yourself if you want to chat I will send a pic and some of my info right away email me at Vampire@EngineRide.info , that will be sent to me directly Thank you From KermitdecemberMueller@investmentmap.com Fri Dec 07 03:55:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Yzq-0001db-HL; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:55:46 -0500 Received: from pool-70-21-143-93.nwrk.east.verizon.net ([70.21.143.93] helo=dczw4g61.myhome.westell.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0Yzq-0007vk-8S; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 03:55:46 -0500 Received: from daniel by investmentmap.com with SMTP id mfbdzzx93K for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 03:55:38 +0500 From: "Esteban Booth" To: Cc: , Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0hlS-0001JW-1F; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:17:30 -0500 Received: from 121.red-88-21-160.staticip.rima-tde.net ([88.21.160.121] helo=adl92e7ea0ab95) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0hlR-0006lX-LT; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:17:29 -0500 Received: from handymen by defiant-guild.net with SMTP id Ek045poqwx for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 19:17:28 -0100 From: "Matilda Eddy" To: , Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0mH2-0006Ks-3M; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:06:24 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J0mH0-0006Kg-JY for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:06:22 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0mH0-0006KY-8E for simple@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:06:22 -0500 Received: from dsl001-129-069.dfw1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([72.1.129.69] helo=estacado.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J0mGz-00053s-IA for simple@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Dec 2007 18:06:22 -0500 Received: from [172.17.120.250] ([24.85.64.125]) (authenticated bits=0) by estacado.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lB7N6FoF024857 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:06:20 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@estacado.net) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: simple mailing list From: Robert Sparks Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 15:06:14 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dbb8771284c7a36189745aa720dc20ab Subject: [Simple] Minutes: SIMPLE at IETF70 X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org Please send comments/corrections as soon as possible: MINUTES - SIMPLE - IETF70 Wednesday Dec 5 2007 1510-1610 Summary: * Geir Arne Sandbakken has taken the editor role on the -simple-chat draft. The group plans to either come to consensus on a general mechanism for nicknames within the next month or move forward with the chat-specific mechanism in the draft. * The interdomain scaling analysis document will be WGLCed in early January. * There was significant interest in the view sharing draft. The chairs will work with the ADs to determine how best to charter completing work on it. * There was interest in seeing the intradomain draft completed and published as an informational document. As above, the chairs will work with the ADs to deterime how best to charter this work. * There was interest shown in the AMI document. Those interested should help Henning with a revision. Raw notes follow: ------------------------------ Notes on SIMPLE at IETF 70 Reported by Dean Willis Chairs, Robert Sparks, Hisham Khartabil "Note Well" presented Topic: Agenda Bash / Status by Chairs slides presented Agenda accepted as presented. Issue: Status Noted that prescaps-ext has an issue that needs to be considered by group. This is essentially a presence-able XML encoding of RFC 3840/3841 preferences and capabilities. This may have privacy implications, like revealing the kind of phone. Do we care? This probably needs to be reflected in the security considerations section of the draft. Issue: draft-ietf-simple-chat-00 MSRP-based chat solution that is future-compatible with XCON. Nicknames have been a contentious issue that is now at an impasse. Mary noted that this is a general problem and XCON needs an answer. Miguel answers that the simple-chat solution was intended to be a tightly constrained subset. Poll: Who wants this? OMA appears to still have a dependency. Several people are planning implementations. Hisham doesn't want this tied to XCON. Adam continued this explanation, reinforcing its separation from XCON. Problem restated as "how to inform the conference server of the nickname that will be exposed to other users?". So the issue is that the current draft only works for IM chat and not for XCON. Geir Arne Sandbakken has volunteered to coordinate a resolution of the problem. Poll: Can we agree to move forward with a non-general mechanism if we can't come to closure on a more general one in the next month? That is, we will adopt the existing mechanism if we don't find something better. Topic: Interdomain Scaling Analysis Led by Avshalom Houri slides presented. Slide: What Can Be Done Henning raises issues about changing the model, which conveys a lot of useless information, needs to be changed in order to impact the order of the scaling problem. Henry asks if p2p would reduce the problem? Some debate ensued on whether the problem is the total bandwidth or the central server load. Discussion: What next? Poll: Ready for WGLC? No objections were noted. Chair proposed a January WGLC. Topic: View Sharing Led by Jonathan Rosenberg slides presented Question: Interest in pursuing this? Several speakers expressed interest. Noted that there is a configured relationship between domains here. Discussion seems generally favorable. Chairs and authors will discuss and review the requirements and referring to SIP. Poll: If you will participate in talking about this draft wherever it lands, please hum . . (much support shown). Topic: AMI Extensions to PDF Led by henning Schulzrinne Slides presented Discussion: Several speakers in favor. Possible issue that list of games is inadequate. Poll: Who read interdomain draft that JDR submitted? Several: Who would review ow? A few. Chair will take proposal to list for WG finalization. Poll: Who read view-sharing draft? Many. 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Relays may recombine chunks into larger chunks, or messages, and = receivers can wait for all chunks to be received before anything is presented.=20 In order for the real-timish use of MSRP to have a chance t be = predictable, there seems to be a need for a parameter in the SEND request, indicating desire or demand for immediate transmission and presentation of the = chunk. =20 =20 =20 This is what MSRP Relay RFC 4976 says in section 6.4.1 Forwarding SEND requests: =20 "It MAY also combine message fragments received before or after this SEND request, and forward them out in a single SEND request." =20 and further down: =20 "The MSRP relay MAY choose whether to further fragment the message, or combine message fragments, or send the message as is, based on some policy that is administered, or based on the network speed to the next hop, or any other mechanism." =20 This is what MSRP RFC 4975 says about receivers: "What is done with the body is outside the scope of MSRP and largely determined by the MIME Content-Type and Content-Disposition. The body MAY be rendered after the whole message is received or partially rendered as it is being received."=20 =20 A new Content-disposition=3Dconvey-present attribute value could = inform the relay and the receiver that progressive transmission and presentation of chunks is desired, and that the relay and the reseivers should not wait = for recombination with later coming chunks. =20 If it is considered unappropriate to define the attribute as a Content-disposition attribute, a new MIME Header can be defined and = inserted in the MSRP send header, e.g. Content-presentation=3Dprogressive, with = the same function. =20 I am not sure if we can mandate to transmit on or to present = immediately. There may be network limitations blocking that ambition.=20 The description shoukld therefore be something like: =20 Content-disposition=3Dconvey-present. When an MSRP chunk is received = with this attribute by an MSRP relay, it should be sent on to next = destination without waiting for other chunks. When an MSRP chunk is received with = this attribute by an MSRP destination, it should be presented adjacent to = earlier chunks in the same message without waiting for other chunks.=20 =20 Comments please. =20 Gunnar Hellstr=F6m ------------------------------------------------------------------- Gunnar Hellstr=F6m Omnitor gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se Tel: +46708204288 www.omnitor.se =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C83ABF.6203F450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

I want = to suggest=20 registrating and using a new MIME Content-disposition value to indicate = that=20 message chunks shall be sent on by MSRP relays and presented immediately = by the=20 MSRP receiver.

I have = (again)=20 looked into the opportunity to use MSRP for real-time or = real-timish text=20 transport.

The = main idea is to=20 get a smoother flow of text so that receiving users do not need to wait = for=20 complete messages to be entered before they can get a view of what is = typed.=20

The = chunk concept=20 could be used, and time sampled chunks of text could be sent with no = extra=20 action by the user.

The = receiving side=20 would present chunks as they arrive, and present them consecutively, so = that=20 received text message grows as more chunks are = received.

Most = of this would=20 be straightforward conventions of use of MSRP and presentation = conventions=20 for some text MIME subtypes.

Further=20 investigation may indicate what sampling interval is suitable: 300 ms = for=20 real-time use or 1-3 seconds for real-timish.

BUT,

Both = for Chunk=20 handling in the MSRP Relay as specified in RFC 4976 and for MSRP = Receivers in=20 RFC 4975, it is not defined what they do with chunks. Relays may = recombine=20 chunks into larger chunks, or messages, and receivers can wait for all = chunks to=20 be received before anything = is presented.

In = order for the=20 real-timish use of MSRP to have a chance t be predictable, there seems = to be a=20 need for a parameter in the SEND request, indicating desire or = demand for=20 immediate transmission and presentation of the = chunk.

This = is what MSRP=20 Relay RFC 4976 says in section 6.4.1 Forwarding SEND=20 requests:

"It = MAY also combine=20 message fragments
received before or after this SEND = request,=20 and forward them out in a
single SEND=20 request."

and = further=20 down:

"The = MSRP relay MAY=20 choose whether to further fragment the message, or
   = combine=20 message fragments, or send the message as is, based on = some
  =20 policy that is administered, or based on the network speed to=20 the
   next hop, or any other=20 mechanism."

This = is what MSRP=20 RFC 4975 says about receivers:

"What is done=20 with the body is outside the scope of MSRP and largely
  =20 determined by the MIME Content-Type and Content-Disposition. =20 The
   body MAY be rendered after the whole message is = received or=20 partially
   rendered as it is being = received."

A new=20 Content-disposition=3Dconvey-present at= tribute=20 value could inform the relay and the receiver that progressive = transmission and=20 presentation of chunks is desired, and that the relay and the reseivers = should=20 not wait for recombination with later coming chunks.

If it = is considered=20 unappropriate to define the attribute as a Content-disposition = attribute, a new=20 MIME Header can be defined and inserted in the MSRP send header, e.g.=20 Content-presentation=3Dprogressive, with the same=20 function.

I am = not sure if we=20 can mandate to transmit on or to present immediately. There may be = network=20 limitations blocking that ambition.

The = description=20 shoukld therefore be something like:

Content-disposition=3Dconvey-present. = When an MSRP=20 chunk is received with this attribute by an MSRP relay, it should be = sent on to=20 next destination without waiting for other chunks. When an MSRP chunk is = received with this attribute by an MSRP destination, it should = be presented=20 adjacent to earlier chunks in the same message without waiting for = other=20 chunks.

Comments please.

Gunnar = Hellstr=F6m

----------------------------------------------------------------= ---

Gunnar = Hellstr=F6m

Omnitor

gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se

Tel: = +46708204288

www.omnitor.se

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Travel no further than your screen and get your free $999 http://eurocasinoai.com/ From simple-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 04:43:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J21eL-0002mL-NX; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:43:37 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J21eK-0002mC-Oy for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:43:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J21eK-0002m4-FJ for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:43:36 -0500 Received: from node05.dns-hosting.info ([85.17.186.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J21eI-0003zT-Re for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:43:36 -0500 Received: from 5571fc03.ftth.concepts.nl ([85.113.252.3] helo=[192.168.1.202]) by node05.dns-hosting.info with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J21eG-0001s5-Un for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:43:33 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7926A274-96E3-4C56-B95D-82682078596D@ag-projects.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: simple@ietf.org From: Ruud Klaver Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:43:29 +0100 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 85.113.252.3 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ruud@ag-projects.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on node05.dns-hosting.info X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX autolearn=no version=3.2.1 X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:39:36 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on node05.dns-hosting.info) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Subject: [Simple] MSRP congestion control issue when using relays X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org Hi, At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I would like to re-raise an =20 issue that was very kindly brought to my attention by R=E9mi Denis-=20 Courmont. In my attempts to implement a MSRP relay I am running into the =20 problem of end-to-end congestion control. Congestion on an outgoing =20 link will cause increasing buffer usage on a relay. This relay could =20 do one of two things: (a) Start dropping MSRP chunks of the congested session. (b) Let the kernelspace TCP buffers fill up and have the TCP receiver =20= window mechanism take care of quenching the incoming TCP connection. In the case of multiplexing several MSRP sessions over the incoming =20 TCP connection (b) would cause blocking in possibly uncongested =20 sessions, while (a) clearly requires emulating some TCP-ish end-to-=20 end congestion control. In my view, re-solving a problem TCP has already dealt with on the =20 MSRP level is not desired. I tried backreading some discussion about =20 this in the archives of this mailinglist, and it seems that after =20 some discussion in April of 2003 there was a consensus that session =20 multiplexing should not be performed when using relays, i.e. each =20 session should have its own TCP connection so that congestion control =20= can be dealt with in the transport layer. To me this seems to be the =20 best solution, although this does mean some incurred overhead of TLS =20 negotiation for each session. My question is, did I interpret this consensus correctly from the =20 discussion and is it still valid? If it is, I could find no clear =20 indication about this in the MSRP relay RFC, although maybe it is =20 there and I did not spot it. Also, I am aware that I may be confusing the concepts of congestion =20 control and flow control, flow control may be a more appropriate term =20= in my previous statements. Ruud Klaver= _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From MeredithincapacityMccauley@wikipedia.org Tue Dec 11 14:53:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2BAz-0000F2-Sq for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:53:57 -0500 Received: from [200.95.224.21] (helo=rogelio.unimedia.net.mx) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2BAz-0006wB-9z for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:53:57 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host56257813.wikipedia.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id nyQib50V14.163774.fDR.P3a.0557817897047 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:52:46 +0600 Message-ID: From: "Rosemarie Jewell" To: Subject: Your order approved Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:52:46 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_BE6A6_01C83C2F.90ACC3B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_BE6A6_01C83C2F.90ACC3B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Viagra would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. Just = disolve half a pill under your tongue and get ready for action in 30 = minutes. The tests showed that the majority of men after taking this = medication were able to have perfect erection during 24 hours! Package Quantity Price in your local drugstore* Our price LearnMoreNow 10 tabs 20 doses $99.95 $34.49 30 tabs 60 doses $299.95 $88.50 60 tabs 120 doses $449.95 $141.02 90 tabs 180 doses $769.95 $176.40 180 tabs 360 doses $1299.95 $298.46 When you are young and stressed up… When you are aged and never give up… Viagra gives you confidence in any chance, every time. ------=_NextPart_000_BE6A6_01C83C2F.90ACC3B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20

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10 tabs	20 doses	~~$99.95~~	$34.49
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180 tabs	360 doses	~~$1299.95~~	$298.46

When you are young and stressed = up…
When you are aged and never give up…
Viagra gives you confidence in any chance, every time.

------=_NextPart_000_BE6A6_01C83C2F.90ACC3B0-- From Vesa_celemer@tampa-elite.com Tue Dec 11 16:40:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Cpk-0002PK-8Z for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:40:08 -0500 Received: from bzq-84-108-47-72.cablep.bezeqint.net ([84.108.47.72]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2Cpj-0001G2-Ip for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 16:40:08 -0500 Received: from maximus-a2b7c87 ([164.185.52.5]:23413 "EHLO maximus-a2b7c87" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by bzq-84-108-47-72.cablep.bezeqint.net with ESMTP id S22PASWLBMNEKGOG (ORCPT ); Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:42:50 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:42:21 +0200 From: "Vesa celemer" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.0 (Windows/20070326) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: simple-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: isktpnil Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 Eat a tablet, and your dick will become like a magnet. http://www.geniusauto.com/ From simple-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 22:12:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2I1W-0001Y5-2I; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:12:38 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2I1U-0001Xs-9k for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:12:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2I1U-0001Xk-03 for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:12:36 -0500 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.182]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2I1T-0002bT-Cs for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:12:35 -0500 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d32so361787pye.12 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:12:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=rky4vDZQ4aXfXvbvKpEYqA0hsYN1IH5RjivkiGWIpG0=; b=YNzeeUNahb1MvaNKEoQxn+oygOgw88VaxMaDKYs2kPEMp3Iw3ocjM594ixdMNBYpTnxkYneLccmgpzuAw1sbrWjFDAaJvSa5UYSeJVeHZ51UzIf5cQIqUkNkx1wZO35Yix5VOMWZhYQdOiTj+R4nGwoCE5vquws93+tBupkTZcw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=Kw4DRLMoCT0/dZoZDe1Jfk1SRchK4IYI9O2ivbsIBH9lZ+ecwf2kYXBQOjQZzXKNarugcuLRdnFMXsbmnm0Sw/NtyXCaBbjovrWRAwSeuznTRWGm++43vIMPgsE+UFIV90d9B/NC2HEbYGX45qDafa+Dpf06xiqi9HG0EIrWRTk= Received: by 10.65.20.18 with SMTP id x18mr313674qbi.92.1197429153958; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:12:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.84.19 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:12:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <66cd252f0712111912g16fa075g709c5fdbea1af4ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:12:33 +1100 From: "Hisham Khartabil" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" Subject: Re: [Simple] other parameters around gaming for the AMI document In-Reply-To: <4758431C.4040900@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4758431C.4040900@cisco.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Cc: Simple WG X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org On 07/12/2007, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > A few suggestions for additional parameters that would be useful for > games in draft-schulzrinne-simple-ami, specifically MMOs (massively > multiplayer online games): > > guild: string, indicating the guild or clan or equivalent of the user > > location: string, name of the realm or zone that the character is in > (i.e., Stormwind) You mean "e.g" :) > > coordinates: in-game coordinates for the location > > grouped: boolean, whether the character is currently in a group > > instanced: boolean, whether the character is currently in an instanced > area (i.e., Sunken Temple) > > lfg: looking-for-group - whether the character is seeking a group. > contains a list of strings with quests or instances that the user is > looking to find a group for > > class: string, the class of the character (i.e., druid, priest, warrior) > > race: string, race of the character (i.e., night elf, gnome) > > faction: "side" or faction for the character (i.e., alliance vs. horde) > > idle: int, amount of time the character has been idle > > dead: boolean, whether the character is dead or not > > > > I can think of a bunch more too. This does start to raise the question > about whether this is presence or another package. One can imagine > having a minimal amount of information in presence, and having more for > a specific event package for gamers. So for example the gaming package > would be implemented perhaps in clients like steam, xfire or xbox live. > Now whether any of those possible clients CARE about a standard in this > area - well thats a good question. > > -Jonathan R. > > -- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 499 Thornall St. > Cisco Fellow Edison, NJ 08837 > Cisco, Voice Technology Group > jdrosen@cisco.com > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (408) 902-3084 > http://www.cisco.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple > _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From simple-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 22:18:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2I6n-0008B6-Mj; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:18:05 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2I6m-0008Aw-36 for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:18:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2I6l-0008Ao-Pa for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:18:03 -0500 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.177]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2I6l-0002jQ-Af for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:18:03 -0500 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d32so369226pye.12 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:18:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=FKATDFmZOgjNCNmlYNGS8wTetbaEpuqxwOjwpAXcGkI=; b=guyxWHrOiQFTF6784zT1xnIrbziQhSMh98kc/edrc6PXX0An/V3Lcc75eUUu4TwOx10fGWD8Dt4ZKcNVmeQQG7bmqV/u/Z3nlJc3H/ojL9+qWIsBngXd+GAtpIlY7KrsSpuR/QCIWxf4TEIreQ0Zzl+Yh74KVKXqOnWhgCCCnZs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=LkDNJslpDLmYkiUW/uPzGrU+KhYofOLpK8hoomTp9Th5/XskHT2OFOioFd8m7UwE6hbK7xt4PxupqfssF+e/QHXlsM24vGNs2EdX0mvF6VqfwT94sp5BfEXM0iMiQhKyJZBdWFJ06B32VTysNkipic0CiVIouaIVDpw/Ui5TWNE= Received: by 10.64.193.2 with SMTP id q2mr373881qbf.51.1197429482050; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:18:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.84.19 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:18:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <66cd252f0712111918q70d41c8atd8ff71e5c42ca19@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:18:01 +1100 From: "Hisham Khartabil" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" Subject: Re: [Simple] other parameters around gaming for the AMI document In-Reply-To: <4758431C.4040900@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <4758431C.4040900@cisco.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Cc: Simple WG X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org I'm not a game player so I have a silly questions: Are these generic parameters for all games? or are they specific to a certain game? This list have the potential to grow for ever if we are to cover all games. I would propose that what is in Henning's draft now will suffice for presence and someone needs to look into a separate gaming draft for a fully fledged game info (as Jonathan suggests). Hisham On 07/12/2007, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > A few suggestions for additional parameters that would be useful for > games in draft-schulzrinne-simple-ami, specifically MMOs (massively > multiplayer online games): > > guild: string, indicating the guild or clan or equivalent of the user > > location: string, name of the realm or zone that the character is in > (i.e., Stormwind) > > coordinates: in-game coordinates for the location > > grouped: boolean, whether the character is currently in a group > > instanced: boolean, whether the character is currently in an instanced > area (i.e., Sunken Temple) > > lfg: looking-for-group - whether the character is seeking a group. > contains a list of strings with quests or instances that the user is > looking to find a group for > > class: string, the class of the character (i.e., druid, priest, warrior) > > race: string, race of the character (i.e., night elf, gnome) > > faction: "side" or faction for the character (i.e., alliance vs. horde) > > idle: int, amount of time the character has been idle > > dead: boolean, whether the character is dead or not > > > > I can think of a bunch more too. This does start to raise the question > about whether this is presence or another package. One can imagine > having a minimal amount of information in presence, and having more for > a specific event package for gamers. So for example the gaming package > would be implemented perhaps in clients like steam, xfire or xbox live. > Now whether any of those possible clients CARE about a standard in this > area - well thats a good question. > > -Jonathan R. > > -- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 499 Thornall St. > Cisco Fellow Edison, NJ 08837 > Cisco, Voice Technology Group > jdrosen@cisco.com > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (408) 902-3084 > http://www.cisco.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple > _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From simple-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 22:35:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2INF-0001sb-Vb; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:35:05 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2INE-0001sW-Ut for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:35:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2INE-0001sO-LD for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:35:04 -0500 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.183]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2INC-00030Y-Gr for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:35:04 -0500 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id d32so393433pye.12 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:35:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=GtkHmiQikr1iNDEQdkz7YJ1OHAJilJ9QdODak8HR0l4=; b=vTowkEZqTexr2MMD7jZpAlGn8Y3noZo4sTWhlINN5kN/CegWXuiKyVkTERtFMhCjSkQjP4B0ASvSNTytQFJpp2ptJ15uBOvjv+0SZYkwlc6G+l43Ll03gWPrXVEx7uKT+RHQSMLA2lDQygrWTEP1eYRSZK2Jf2rwPjZa93imn34= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=wG3pnGkh7jggvY+Un/0KfcMuskNC1NixCXjXM0qMposqXqM0EoLIEuRKT/IbQtZxj/fqdMlOBI77jIxux9EUF9rJedmSKTjKcNiaSQ5Yu0f2km6daH/CfjjOmzDl0bzvwNr5LU7s+/sfYmiGXhSf7QNcoCj4I7MYDIOhBwhiHbw= Received: by 10.65.203.3 with SMTP id f3mr445031qbq.18.1197430501824; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:35:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.64.84.19 with HTTP; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 19:35:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <66cd252f0712111935y2023262et40584b2919cd8397@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 14:35:01 +1100 From: "Hisham Khartabil" To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=F6m?=" Subject: Re: [Simple] MSRP Chunk transmission and presentation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5ebbf074524e58e662bc8209a6235027 Cc: SIMPLE X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org The MSRP message chunking feature is not for the purpose you describe. It is there for a totally different purpose related to network congestion. My opinion would be not to use MSRP chunking for this feature but instead think of something else. Maybe the opposite of chunking. I.e. combining SEND message bodies and presenting them as one message to the user. This can be signalled using some sort of content-disposition type. Hisham On 10/12/2007, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote: > > Hi, > I want to suggest registrating and using a new MIME Content-disposition > value to indicate that message chunks shall be sent on by MSRP relays and > presented immediately by the MSRP receiver. > > I have (again) looked into the opportunity to use MSRP for real-time or > real-timish text transport. > The main idea is to get a smoother flow of text so that receiving users d= o > not need to wait for complete messages to be entered before they can get = a > view of what is typed. > > The chunk concept could be used, and time sampled chunks of text could be > sent with no extra action by the user. > The receiving side would present chunks as they arrive, and present them > consecutively, so that received text message grows as more chunks are > received. > > Most of this would be straightforward conventions of use of MSRP and > presentation conventions for some text MIME subtypes. > > Further investigation may indicate what sampling interval is suitable: 30= 0 > ms for real-time use or 1-3 seconds for real-timish. > > BUT, > Both for Chunk handling in the MSRP Relay as specified in RFC 4976 and fo= r > MSRP Receivers in RFC 4975, it is not defined what they do with chunks. > Relays may recombine chunks into larger chunks, or messages, and receiver= s > can wait for all chunks to be received before anything is presented. > In order for the real-timish use of MSRP to have a chance t be predictabl= e, > there seems to be a need for a parameter in the SEND request, indicating > desire or demand for immediate transmission and presentation of the chunk= . > > > > This is what MSRP Relay RFC 4976 says in section 6.4.1 Forwarding SEND > requests: > > "It MAY also combine message fragments > received before or after this SEND request, and forward them out in a > single SEND request." > > and further down: > > "The MSRP relay MAY choose whether to further fragment the message, or > combine message fragments, or send the message as is, based on some > policy that is administered, or based on the network speed to the > next hop, or any other mechanism." > > This is what MSRP RFC 4975 says about receivers: > "What is done with the body is outside the scope of MSRP and largely > determined by the MIME Content-Type and Content-Disposition. The > body MAY be rendered after the whole message is received or partially > rendered as it is being received." > > A new Content-disposition=3Dconvey-present attribute value > could inform the relay and the receiver that progressive transmission and > presentation of chunks is desired, and that the relay and the reseivers > should not wait for recombination with later coming chunks. > > If it is considered unappropriate to define the attribute as a > Content-disposition attribute, a new MIME Header can be defined and inser= ted > in the MSRP send header, e.g. > Content-presentation=3Dprogressive, with the same function. > > I am not sure if we can mandate to transmit on or to present immediately. > There may be network limitations blocking that ambition. > The description shoukld therefore be something like: > > Content-disposition=3Dconvey-present. When an MSRP chunk is > received with this attribute by an MSRP relay, it should be sent on to ne= xt > destination without waiting for other chunks. When an MSRP chunk is recei= ved > with this attribute by an MSRP destination, it should be presented adjace= nt > to earlier chunks in the same message without waiting for other chunks. > > Comments please. > > Gunnar Hellstr=F6m > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Gunnar Hellstr=F6m > Omnitor > gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se > Tel: +46708204288 > www.omnitor.se > > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple > > _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From simple-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 11 23:19:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2J4L-000141-Dp; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:19:37 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2J4J-00013v-Nm for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:19:35 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2J4J-00013n-CK for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:19:35 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2J4I-0003Dw-Vh for simple@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:19:35 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Dec 2007 23:19:33 -0500 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lBC4JYuI025481; Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:19:34 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lBC4JYa8005331; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:19:34 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-215.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.124]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:19:34 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Simple] MSRP congestion control issue when using relays Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:19:32 -0500 Message-ID: <8983EC086A9D954BA74D9763E853CF3E045A3EE5@xmb-rtp-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7926A274-96E3-4C56-B95D-82682078596D@ag-projects.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Simple] MSRP congestion control issue when using relays Thread-Index: Acg72mhAtb2sDmUfRLKsHImuVh25rQAmrmpA From: "Sanjay Sinha (sanjsinh)" To: "Ruud Klaver" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2007 04:19:34.0165 (UTC) FILETIME=[3320BC50:01C83C76] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2504; t=1197433174; x=1198297174; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=sanjsinh@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Sanjay=20Sinha=20(sanjsinh)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Simple]=20MSRP=20congestion=20control= 20issue=20when=20using=20relays |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Ruud=20Klaver=22=20,=20; bh=Wuwb8kI8+2Yh7nQZe5X1SHvezLoSVmKyOpN8sAH37RY=; b=Sx5npRKcGfn2MvB1CM7iWpVONr1hfvE04WR7ZM1cLdMkR5jW3pmaFhyXBA 9jl/Ph+qdaWnYf2kZd8RUANn2SbebPL2s0Cvo7uOg017pbsVsBpWKUCpdD1T BypG+QfrbR; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=sanjsinh@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org Inline .. >-----Original Message----- >From: Ruud Klaver [mailto:ruud@ag-projects.com]=20 >Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:43 AM >To: simple@ietf.org >Subject: [Simple] MSRP congestion control issue when using relays > >Hi, > >At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I would like to re-raise=20 >an issue that was very kindly brought to my attention by R=E9mi=20 >Denis- Courmont. > >In my attempts to implement a MSRP relay I am running into the=20 >problem of end-to-end congestion control. Congestion on an=20 >outgoing link will cause increasing buffer usage on a relay.=20 >This relay could do one of two things: >(a) Start dropping MSRP chunks of the congested session. >(b) Let the kernelspace TCP buffers fill up and have the TCP=20 >receiver window mechanism take care of quenching the incoming=20 >TCP connection. > >In the case of multiplexing several MSRP sessions over the=20 >incoming TCP connection (b) would cause blocking in possibly=20 >uncongested sessions, while (a) clearly requires emulating=20 >some TCP-ish end-to- end congestion control. > >In my view, re-solving a problem TCP has already dealt with on=20 >the MSRP level is not desired. I tried backreading some=20 >discussion about this in the archives of this mailinglist, and=20 >it seems that after some discussion in April of 2003 there was=20 >a consensus that session multiplexing should not be performed=20 >when using relays, i.e. each session should have its own TCP=20 >connection so that congestion control can be dealt with in the=20 >transport layer. MSRP RFC (4975) mentions that a sender should not create another = connection if one already exists to the host,port and msrp uri schema, = rather reuse the existing connection. Sanjay. >To me this seems to be the best solution,=20 >although this does mean some incurred overhead of TLS=20 >negotiation for each session. > >My question is, did I interpret this consensus correctly from=20 >the discussion and is it still valid? If it is, I could find=20 >no clear indication about this in the MSRP relay RFC, although=20 >maybe it is there and I did not spot it. > >Also, I am aware that I may be confusing the concepts of=20 >congestion control and flow control, flow control may be a=20 >more appropriate term in my previous statements. > >Ruud Klaver > >_______________________________________________ >Simple mailing list >Simple@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple > _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From simple-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 01:16:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2KtI-0003xG-HN; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:16:20 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2KtG-0003vq-Tu for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:16:18 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2KtG-0003u8-8B for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:16:18 -0500 Received: from s87.loopia.se ([194.9.94.112]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2KtE-0006E1-W8 for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:16:17 -0500 Received: (qmail 59249 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2007 06:16:15 -0000 Received: from s34.loopia.se (HELO s24.loopia.se) ([194.9.94.70]) (envelope-sender ) by s87.loopia.se (qmail-ldap-1.03) with AES256-SHA encrypted SMTP for ; 12 Dec 2007 06:16:15 -0000 Received: (qmail 88637 invoked from network); 12 Dec 2007 06:16:14 -0000 Received: from h240n1fls34o265.telia.com (HELO GunnarH) (gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se@[213.64.232.240]) (envelope-sender ) by s24.loopia.se (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 12 Dec 2007 06:16:14 -0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=F6m?= To: "'Hisham Khartabil'" Subject: RE: [Simple] MSRP Chunk transmission and presentation Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 07:16:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <66cd252f0712111935y2023262et40584b2919cd8397@mail.gmail.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 Thread-index: Acg8b/r9LA5y4VRsTASMuLc4HHaIXwAEXnMA X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 156eddb66af16eef49a76ae923b15b92 Message-Id: Cc: 'SIMPLE' X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org Hishham, Thanks for your response. Yes, it is fully possible to create a real-timish mode of text = communication just based on presentation conventions for a series of MSRP messages. The presentation layer presents characters from received messages consecutively appended to earlier received characters as received, and = does not insert any separator until a New Line, CRLF or other agreed entry separator is received. That is the most logical way to interpret MSRP + message/cpim + = text/plain today without extra specification, but I think anyway that this mode = should be signaled by some agreed parameter. The signaling for this case can be by 1. An sdp attribute e.g. a=3Dappend (Something like this is needed anyway for negotiation between = alternative media for the same purpose) 2. The MIME type and subtype. E.g. say in a specification that = text/plain shall always be presented in this way. Or register a new subtype e.g. text/t140m .=20 3. A new MSRP header field 4. A new value for Content-disposition. E.g. = Content-disposition=3Dappend I suggest to introduce an sdp attribute, define it for text/plain and = also add a Content-disposition parameter.=20 I still like the idea to base it on chunks. Would it cause any problems = to define presentation rules on chunks? Gunnar ------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Hisham Khartabil [mailto:hisham.khartabil@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 4:35 AM To: Gunnar Hellstr=F6m Cc: SIMPLE Subject: Re: [Simple] MSRP Chunk transmission and presentation The MSRP message chunking feature is not for the purpose you describe. It is there for a totally different purpose related to network = congestion. My opinion would be not to use MSRP chunking for this feature but = instead think of something else. Maybe the opposite of chunking. I.e. combining = SEND message bodies and presenting them as one message to the user. This can = be signalled using some sort of content-disposition type. Hisham On 10/12/2007, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote: > > Hi, > I want to suggest registrating and using a new MIME=20 > Content-disposition value to indicate that message chunks shall be=20 > sent on by MSRP relays and presented immediately by the MSRP receiver. > > I have (again) looked into the opportunity to use MSRP for real-time=20 > or real-timish text transport. > The main idea is to get a smoother flow of text so that receiving=20 > users do not need to wait for complete messages to be entered before=20 > they can get a view of what is typed. > > The chunk concept could be used, and time sampled chunks of text could = > be sent with no extra action by the user. > The receiving side would present chunks as they arrive, and present=20 > them consecutively, so that received text message grows as more chunks = > are received. > > Most of this would be straightforward conventions of use of MSRP and=20 > presentation conventions for some text MIME subtypes. > > Further investigation may indicate what sampling interval is suitable: = > 300 ms for real-time use or 1-3 seconds for real-timish. > > BUT, > Both for Chunk handling in the MSRP Relay as specified in RFC 4976 and = > for MSRP Receivers in RFC 4975, it is not defined what they do with chunks. > Relays may recombine chunks into larger chunks, or messages, and=20 > receivers can wait for all chunks to be received before anything is presented. > In order for the real-timish use of MSRP to have a chance t be=20 > predictable, there seems to be a need for a parameter in the SEND=20 > request, indicating desire or demand for immediate transmission and presentation of the chunk. > > > > This is what MSRP Relay RFC 4976 says in section 6.4.1 Forwarding SEND > requests: > > "It MAY also combine message fragments > received before or after this SEND request, and forward them out in = a > single SEND request." > > and further down: > > "The MSRP relay MAY choose whether to further fragment the message, or > combine message fragments, or send the message as is, based on some > policy that is administered, or based on the network speed to the > next hop, or any other mechanism." > > This is what MSRP RFC 4975 says about receivers: > "What is done with the body is outside the scope of MSRP and largely > determined by the MIME Content-Type and Content-Disposition. The > body MAY be rendered after the whole message is received or = partially > rendered as it is being received." > > A new Content-disposition=3Dconvey-present attribute value > could inform the relay and the receiver that progressive transmission=20 > and presentation of chunks is desired, and that the relay and the=20 > reseivers should not wait for recombination with later coming chunks. > > If it is considered unappropriate to define the attribute as a=20 > Content-disposition attribute, a new MIME Header can be defined and=20 > inserted in the MSRP send header, e.g. > Content-presentation=3Dprogressive, with the same function. > > I am not sure if we can mandate to transmit on or to present = immediately. > There may be network limitations blocking that ambition. > The description shoukld therefore be something like: > > Content-disposition=3Dconvey-present. When an MSRP chunk is received=20 > with this attribute by an MSRP relay, it should be sent on to next=20 > destination without waiting for other chunks. When an MSRP chunk is=20 > received with this attribute by an MSRP destination, it should be=20 > presented adjacent to earlier chunks in the same message without = waiting for other chunks. > > Comments please. > > Gunnar Hellstr=F6m > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Gunnar Hellstr=F6m > Omnitor > gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se > Tel: +46708204288 > www.omnitor.se > > _______________________________________________ > Simple mailing list > Simple@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple > > _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From BlairworkhorseJoyce@creatingmusic.com Wed Dec 12 01:52:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2LSK-0000xN-Ns for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:52:32 -0500 Received: from cpe-071-075-165-211.carolina.res.rr.com ([71.75.165.211] helo=schott.carolina.rr.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2LSK-0006qh-9p for simple-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:52:32 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host01847149.creatingmusic.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id Lltcwe3J28.834458.J5N.irH.5288695657462 for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:51:35 +0500 Message-ID: <47542e01c83c8b$95558670$6501a8c0@Schott> From: "Blair Benton" To: Subject: Your order Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 01:51:35 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_47542A_01C83C8B.95558670" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_47542A_01C83C8B.95558670 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Viagra would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. 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------=_NextPart_000_47542A_01C83C8B.95558670-- From simple-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 02:37:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2MA1-0000h2-QY; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:37:41 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2M9z-0000gu-T3 for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:37:39 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2M9z-0000du-Ep for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:37:39 -0500 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([192.100.122.233] helo=mgw-mx06.nokia.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2M9y-0007lU-VB for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 02:37:39 -0500 Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-mx06.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.6/Switch-3.2.6) with ESMTP id lBC7bXB1012289; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:37:35 +0200 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:37:05 +0200 Received: from esdhcp04066.research.nokia.com ([172.21.40.66]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:37:05 +0200 From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Nokia TP-SP-SWD To: simple@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Simple] MSRP congestion control issue when using relays Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 09:37:05 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <8983EC086A9D954BA74D9763E853CF3E045A3EE5@xmb-rtp-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8983EC086A9D954BA74D9763E853CF3E045A3EE5@xmb-rtp-215.amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200712120937.06003.remi.denis-courmont@nokia.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Dec 2007 07:37:05.0079 (UTC) FILETIME=[CAD2B470:01C83C91] X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org Le Wednesday 12 December 2007 06:19:32 ext Sanjay Sinha (sanjsinh), vous av= ez=20 =E9crit=A0: > >In my view, re-solving a problem TCP has already dealt with on > >the MSRP level is not desired. Agreed completely. > >I tried backreading some discussion about this in the archives > >of this mailinglist, and it seems that after some discussion in > >April of 2003 there was a consensus that session multiplexing > >should not be performed when using relays, i.e. each session > >should have its own TCP connection so that congestion control > >can be dealt with in the transport layer. > > MSRP RFC (4975) mentions that a sender should not create another connecti= on > if one already exists to the host,port and msrp uri schema, rather reuse > the existing connection. And you propose what instead... ? =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From simple-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 12 04:20:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2NlF-0002rG-O7; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:20:13 -0500 Received: from simple by megatron.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1J2NlE-0002rB-MR for simple-confirm+ok@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:20:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2NlD-0002r3-Qx for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:20:11 -0500 Received: from node05.dns-hosting.info ([85.17.186.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1J2NlC-00026W-9q for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:20:11 -0500 Received: from 5571fc03.ftth.concepts.nl ([85.113.252.3] helo=[192.168.1.202]) by node05.dns-hosting.info with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1J2NlA-00069u-Mx for simple@ietf.org; Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:20:09 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <8983EC086A9D954BA74D9763E853CF3E045A3EE5@xmb-rtp-215.amer.cisco.com> References: <8983EC086A9D954BA74D9763E853CF3E045A3EE5@xmb-rtp-215.amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <128CE658-6C0F-424F-A728-8D607860A8E0@ag-projects.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ruud Klaver Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 10:20:04 +0100 To: simple@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 85.113.252.3 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ruud@ag-projects.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on node05.dns-hosting.info X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Subject: Re: [Simple] MSRP congestion control issue when using relays X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:39:36 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on node05.dns-hosting.info) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a X-BeenThere: simple@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: simple-bounces@ietf.org Hi, On Dec 12, 2007, at 5:19 AM, Sanjay Sinha (sanjsinh) wrote: > Inline .. >> In my view, re-solving a problem TCP has already dealt with on >> the MSRP level is not desired. I tried backreading some >> discussion about this in the archives of this mailinglist, and >> it seems that after some discussion in April of 2003 there was >> a consensus that session multiplexing should not be performed >> when using relays, i.e. each session should have its own TCP >> connection so that congestion control can be dealt with in the >> transport layer. > > MSRP RFC (4975) mentions that a sender should not create another > connection if one already exists to the host,port and msrp uri > schema, rather reuse the existing connection. > > Sanjay. This is exactly the statement that confused me in the first place. My argument is that this works fine in a situation where relays are not used (and I suppose RFC4975 only discusses this case as relays are split off into RFC4976), but when using relays one encounters the problem I described. Ruud Klaver _______________________________________________ Simple mailing list Simple@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple From SonyagymnastHannah@choosetosave.org Wed Dec 12 06:46:55 2007 Return-path: