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Sec 7.1.1 rfc 4975 states:

=20

"There are some circumstances where an endpoint may choose to send an
empty SEND request".
I know that bodiless SEND requests are different from SEND requests with
empty bodies. But what could be the use case for the same??

=20

Why can't we use SEND requests with empty bodies for keep-alive
mechanisms instead of bodiless SEND requests??

=20

Regards

Achint Aggarwal

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Sec
7.1.1 rfc 4975 states:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<pre><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&#8220;<font
color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black'>There are some circumstances =
where an endpoint may choose to send an empty SEND =
request&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>I know that bodiless SEND =
requests are different from SEND requests with empty bodies. But what =
could be the use case for the same??<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Why
can&#8217;t we use SEND requests with empty bodies for keep-alive =
mechanisms
instead of bodiless SEND requests??<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>Achint
Aggarwal<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></font></p>

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From ben@nostrum.com  Tue Mar  1 19:46:14 2011
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On Mar 1, 2011, at 9:34 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:

> Sec 7.1.1 rfc 4975 states:
> =20
> =93There are some circumstances where an endpoint may choose to send =
an empty SEND request=94.
> I know that bodiless SEND requests are different from SEND requests =
with empty bodies. But what could be the use case for the same??
> =20
> Why can=92t we use SEND requests with empty bodies for keep-alive =
mechanisms instead of bodiless SEND requests??

Why would you want to? A SEND request with an empty body is sometimes =
larger and never smaller than a bodiless send request.

I suspect there may be some confusion about what we mean by an empty =
body--an empty body is a well formed MIME payload that happens to carry =
no content. For something like text/plain, that is almost identical to a =
bodiless request--except that it must still have the content-type, etc.  =
OTOH, an empty XML body would need to have the proper XML preamble, =
closings, etc.

Also, the peer might choose to render an empty body. For example, maybe =
it inserts a blank message or line feed in a chat window, while it might =
choose to do nothing user-visible when it receives a bodiless SEND =
request.



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<html><head><base href=3D"x-msg://189/"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Mar 1, 2011, at 9:34 PM, Achint =
Aggarwal wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"Section1" =
style=3D"page: Section1; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Sec 7.1.1 rfc 4975 =
states:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">=93<font color=3D"black"><span =
style=3D"color: black; ">There are some circumstances where an endpoint =
may choose to send an empty SEND =
request=94.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">I know that bodiless SEND requests are different =
from SEND requests with empty bodies. But what could be the use case for =
the same??<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Why can=92t we use SEND requests =
with empty bodies for keep-alive mechanisms instead of bodiless SEND =
requests??</span></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>Why would you want to? A SEND request with an empty body is =
sometimes larger and never smaller than a bodiless send =
request.</div><div><br></div><div>I suspect there may be some confusion =
about what we mean by an empty body--an empty body is a well formed MIME =
payload that happens to carry no content. For something like text/plain, =
that is almost identical to a bodiless request--except that it must =
still have the content-type, etc. &nbsp;OTOH, an empty XML body would =
need to have the proper XML preamble, closings, =
etc.</div><div><br></div><div>Also, the peer might choose to render an =
empty body. For example, maybe it inserts a blank message or line feed =
in a chat window, while it might choose to do nothing user-visible when =
it receives a bodiless SEND request.</div></div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"'Courier New'" size=3D"3"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 13px;"><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
medium;"><br></span></font></span></font><div><font =
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class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: 13px;"><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"Helvetica"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-size: =
medium;"><br></span></font></span></font></div></body></html>=

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Sec 8.5 of RFC 4975 states the following:

=20

"Previous versions of this document included a mechanism to negotiate
   the direction for any required TCP connection.  The mechanism was
   loosely based on the Connection-Oriented Media (COMEDIA) [26] work
   done by the MMUSIC working group.  The primary motivation was to
   allow MSRP sessions to succeed in situations where the offerer could
   not accept connections but the answerer could.  For example, the
   offerer might be behind a NAT, while the answerer might have a
   globally routable address.
=20
   The SIMPLE working group chose to remove that mechanism from MSRP, as
   it added a great deal of complexity to connection management.
   Instead, MSRP now specifies a default connection direction.  The
   party that sent the original offer is responsible for connecting to
   its peer."
=20

Does this mean that in order to resolve NAT traversal issue in MSRP,
using MSRP relays is the only solution??

In other words does this indicates that if MSRP relays are not used then
COMEDIA has to be used (which as per rfc 4975 is deprecated)??=20

=20

Regards

Achint Aggarwal

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Sec
8.5 of RFC 4975 states the following:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<pre><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&#8220;<font
color=3Dblack><span style=3D'color:black'>Previous versions of this =
document included a mechanism to =
negotiate<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; the direction for =
any required TCP connection.&nbsp; The mechanism =
was<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; loosely based on the =
Connection-Oriented Media (COMEDIA) [26] =
work<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; done by the MMUSIC =
working group.&nbsp; The primary motivation was =
to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; allow MSRP sessions =
to succeed in situations where the offerer =
could<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; not accept =
connections but the answerer could.&nbsp; For example, =
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; offerer might be =
behind a NAT, while the answerer might have =
a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; globally routable =
address.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
re><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; The SIMPLE working =
group chose to remove that mechanism from MSRP, =
as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; it added a great =
deal of complexity to connection =
management.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; Instead, MSRP now =
specifies a default connection direction.&nbsp; =
The<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; party that sent the =
original offer is responsible for connecting =
to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>&nbsp;&nbsp; its =
peer.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p=
re>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Does
this mean that in order to resolve NAT traversal issue in MSRP, using =
MSRP relays
is the only solution??<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>In
other words does this indicates that if MSRP relays are not used then =
COMEDIA
has to be used (which as per rfc 4975 is deprecated)?? =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt'>Achint
Aggarwal<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Courier =
New"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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On Mar 1, 2011, at 11:45 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:

> Sec 8.5 of RFC 4975 states the following:
> =20
> =93Previous versions of this document included a mechanism to =
negotiate
>    the direction for any required TCP connection.  The mechanism was
>    loosely based on the Connection-Oriented Media (COMEDIA) [26] work
>    done by the MMUSIC working group.  The primary motivation was to
>    allow MSRP sessions to succeed in situations where the offerer =
could
>    not accept connections but the answerer could.  For example, the
>    offerer might be behind a NAT, while the answerer might have a
>    globally routable address.
> =20
>    The SIMPLE working group chose to remove that mechanism from MSRP, =
as
>    it added a great deal of complexity to connection management.
>    Instead, MSRP now specifies a default connection direction.  The
>    party that sent the original offer is responsible for connecting to
>    its peer.=94
> =20
> Does this mean that in order to resolve NAT traversal issue in MSRP, =
using MSRP relays is the only solution??
> In other words does this indicates that if MSRP relays are not used =
then COMEDIA has to be used (which as per rfc 4975 is deprecated)??

The MSRP relay is the primary way the work group intended one to get =
around NATs. You are likely going to need a relay, or something like it, =
to get around the "both clients behind NATs" problem (depending on the =
NAT behavior, of course.) This is true even with COMEDIA. COMEDIA would, =
however increase the number of scenarios where one peer is using a =
routable address and the other behind a NAT that can work without a =
relay.


COMEDIA was not deprecated so much as ruled out-of-scope because of =
timing issues. It happens that  RFC 6135 was just published this week. =
That RFC specifies the use of COMEDIA with MSRP.


Thanks!

Ben.=

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<html><head><base href=3D"x-msg://203/"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Mar 1, 2011, at 11:45 PM, Achint =
Aggarwal wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"Section1" =
style=3D"page: Section1; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Sec 8.5 of RFC 4975 states the =
following:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">=93<font color=3D"black"><span =
style=3D"color: black; ">Previous versions of this document included a =
mechanism to negotiate<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; the direction for any required TCP =
connection.&nbsp; The mechanism was<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; loosely based on the =
Connection-Oriented Media (COMEDIA) [26] =
work<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
">&nbsp;&nbsp; done by the MMUSIC working group.&nbsp; The primary =
motivation was to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" =
color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; allow MSRP sessions to succeed in =
situations where the offerer could<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; not accept connections but the =
answerer could.&nbsp; For example, =
the<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
">&nbsp;&nbsp; offerer might be behind a NAT, while the answerer might =
have a<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
">&nbsp;&nbsp; globally routable =
address.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
">&nbsp;&nbsp; The SIMPLE working group chose to remove that mechanism =
from MSRP, as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: =
0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" =
color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; it added a great deal of complexity to =
connection management.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; Instead, MSRP now specifies a default =
connection direction.&nbsp; The<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; party that sent the original offer is =
responsible for connecting to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; its =
peer.=94<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Does this mean that in order to =
resolve NAT traversal issue in MSRP, using MSRP relays is the only =
solution??<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">In other words does this =
indicates that if MSRP relays are not used then COMEDIA has to be used =
(which as per rfc 4975 is =
deprecated)??</span></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>The MSRP relay is the primary way the work group intended one =
to get around NATs. You are likely going to need a relay, or something =
like it, to get around the "both clients behind NATs" problem (depending =
on the NAT behavior, of course.) This is true even with COMEDIA. COMEDIA =
would, however increase the number of scenarios where one peer is using =
a routable address and the other behind a NAT that can work without a =
relay.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>COMEDIA was not =
deprecated so much as ruled out-of-scope because of timing issues. It =
happens that &nbsp;RFC 6135 was just published this week. That RFC =
specifies the use of COMEDIA with =
MSRP.</div></div><br><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>=
Ben.</div></body></html>=

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On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

> On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:14 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:
>=20
>> Hi,
>> =20
>> RFC 4976 Section 3 says:
>> =93For client-to-client communication, the sender of a message =
typically
>>    opens a new TCP connection (with or without TLS) if one is needed.
>>    Relays reuse existing connections first, but can open new =
connections
>>    (typically to other relays) to deliver requests such as SEND or
>>    REPORT.=94
>> =20
>> Consider a scenario where an MSRP client establishes an MSRP session =
and client=92s relay opens a connection with its next hop to route the =
MSRP packets coming to it from the client.
>> Now if the same client wants to start another session then how can =
the same relay reuse the same connection opened earlier for this new =
session??
>=20
> The general idea is, If the relay receives a SEND request where the =
next hop URI in the To-Path field resolves to an address and port to =
which the relay already has a TCP connection, it sends the forwards the =
request over that connection.
>=20
> Of course, it only works if the next hop is the same for both =
sessions.

After sending that, it occurred to me that things could be a little more =
complicated if TLS is used (which it should be). You would also want to =
make sure that the domain name associated with next hop of the new =
session matched the TLS cert from that end of the existing connection. =
The simplest approach would be to only reuse if the domain part of the =
MSRP URI for the new session matched the one from an existing one. It =
might be possible to be more aggressive by saying the new domain name =
from the new URI could match any name from the next hop TLS cert, but =
that starts to get complicated.

IIRC, neither RFC discusses this in any detail. Does anyone else have =
thoughts on the topic?



--Apple-Mail-15-793896671
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Ben Campbell =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Feb 28, =
2011, at 11:14 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"Section1" =
style=3D"page: Section1; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">RFC 4976 Section 3 =
says:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">=93<font color=3D"black"><span =
style=3D"color: black; ">For client-to-client communication, the sender =
of a message typically<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; opens a new TCP connection (with or =
without TLS) if one is needed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; Relays reuse existing connections =
first, but can open new connections<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; (typically to other relays) to =
deliver requests such as SEND or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
REPORT.=94<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Consider a scenario where an MSRP =
client establishes an MSRP session and client=92s relay opens a =
connection with its next hop to route the MSRP packets coming to it from =
the client.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Now if the same client wants to =
start another session then how can the same relay reuse the same =
connection opened earlier for this new =
session??</span></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>The general idea is, If the relay receives a SEND request where =
the next hop URI in the To-Path field resolves to an address and port to =
which the relay already has a TCP connection, it sends the forwards the =
request over that connection.</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, it =
only works if the next hop is the same for both =
sessions.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>After =
sending that, it occurred to me that things could be a little more =
complicated if TLS is used (which it should be). You would also want to =
make sure that the domain name associated with next hop of the new =
session matched the TLS cert from that end of the existing connection. =
The simplest approach would be to only reuse if the domain part of the =
MSRP URI for the new session matched the one from an existing one. It =
might be possible to be more aggressive by saying the new domain name =
from the new URI could match any name from the next hop TLS cert, but =
that starts to get complicated.</div><div><br></div><div>IIRC, neither =
RFC discusses this in any detail. Does anyone else have thoughts on the =
topic?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-15-793896671--

From ag@ag-projects.com  Wed Mar  2 06:35:18 2011
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From: Adrian Georgescu <ag@ag-projects.com>
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 15:36:06 +0100
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References: <1B8AC001C412D84987E59160179F9D2802009B32@ex3-del1.synapse.com> <57F36E23-F8E4-46B0-B680-B8B7CB874BB8@nostrum.com> <4FD0C72E-29BE-4278-8CA0-98BE2F5BA4EE@estacado.net>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>
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Cc: Achint Aggarwal <Achint.Aggarwal@globallogic.com>, Umang Singh <Umang.Singh@globallogic.com>, simple@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Simple] TCP connection reuse query
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--Apple-Mail-2-794303408
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I remember running into other issues as well when building the MSRP =
Relay a few years ago and we gave up on reusing connections. I remember =
the critical one was the impossibility to apply different QoS / =
throttling techniques if multiple sessions are sharing the same TCP =
connection. If each session uses its own TCP connection is possible to =
prioritize and shape the traffic very easily depending on the type of =
sessions (e.g. chat or large file transfer).

Adrian

On Mar 2, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

>=20
> On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>=20
>> On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:14 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi,
>>> =20
>>> RFC 4976 Section 3 says:
>>> =93For client-to-client communication, the sender of a message =
typically
>>>    opens a new TCP connection (with or without TLS) if one is =
needed.
>>>    Relays reuse existing connections first, but can open new =
connections
>>>    (typically to other relays) to deliver requests such as SEND or
>>>    REPORT.=94
>>> =20
>>> Consider a scenario where an MSRP client establishes an MSRP session =
and client=92s relay opens a connection with its next hop to route the =
MSRP packets coming to it from the client.
>>> Now if the same client wants to start another session then how can =
the same relay reuse the same connection opened earlier for this new =
session??
>>=20
>> The general idea is, If the relay receives a SEND request where the =
next hop URI in the To-Path field resolves to an address and port to =
which the relay already has a TCP connection, it sends the forwards the =
request over that connection.
>>=20
>> Of course, it only works if the next hop is the same for both =
sessions.
>=20
> After sending that, it occurred to me that things could be a little =
more complicated if TLS is used (which it should be). You would also =
want to make sure that the domain name associated with next hop of the =
new session matched the TLS cert from that end of the existing =
connection. The simplest approach would be to only reuse if the domain =
part of the MSRP URI for the new session matched the one from an =
existing one. It might be possible to be more aggressive by saying the =
new domain name from the new URI could match any name from the next hop =
TLS cert, but that starts to get complicated.
>=20
> IIRC, neither RFC discusses this in any detail. Does anyone else have =
thoughts on the topic?
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Simple mailing list
> Simple@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple


--Apple-Mail-2-794303408
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>I remember running into other issues as well when building the =
MSRP Relay a few years ago and we gave up on reusing connections. I =
remember the critical one was the impossibility to apply different QoS / =
throttling techniques if multiple sessions are sharing the same TCP =
connection. If each session uses its own TCP connection is possible to =
prioritize and shape the traffic very easily depending on the type of =
sessions (e.g. chat or large file =
transfer).</div><div><br></div><div>Adrian</div><div><br></div><div><div>O=
n Mar 2, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Feb 28, 2011, =
at 11:37 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Feb 28, 2011, at =
11:14 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"Section1" =
style=3D"page: Section1; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">RFC 4976 Section 3 =
says:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">=93<font color=3D"black"><span =
style=3D"color: black; ">For client-to-client communication, the sender =
of a message typically<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; opens a new TCP connection (with or =
without TLS) if one is needed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; Relays reuse existing connections =
first, but can open new connections<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; (typically to other relays) to =
deliver requests such as SEND or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
REPORT.=94<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Consider a scenario where an MSRP =
client establishes an MSRP session and client=92s relay opens a =
connection with its next hop to route the MSRP packets coming to it from =
the client.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Now if the same client wants to =
start another session then how can the same relay reuse the same =
connection opened earlier for this new =
session??</span></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>The general idea is, If the relay receives a SEND request where =
the next hop URI in the To-Path field resolves to an address and port to =
which the relay already has a TCP connection, it sends the forwards the =
request over that connection.</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, it =
only works if the next hop is the same for both =
sessions.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>After =
sending that, it occurred to me that things could be a little more =
complicated if TLS is used (which it should be). You would also want to =
make sure that the domain name associated with next hop of the new =
session matched the TLS cert from that end of the existing connection. =
The simplest approach would be to only reuse if the domain part of the =
MSRP URI for the new session matched the one from an existing one. It =
might be possible to be more aggressive by saying the new domain name =
from the new URI could match any name from the next hop TLS cert, but =
that starts to get complicated.</div><div><br></div><div>IIRC, neither =
RFC discusses this in any detail. Does anyone else have thoughts on the =
topic?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div>____________________=
___________________________<br>Simple mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Simple@ietf.org">Simple@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/simple<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-2-794303408--

From ben@estacado.net  Wed Mar  2 06:43:29 2011
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From: Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 08:44:14 -0600
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References: <1B8AC001C412D84987E59160179F9D2802009B32@ex3-del1.synapse.com> <57F36E23-F8E4-46B0-B680-B8B7CB874BB8@nostrum.com> <4FD0C72E-29BE-4278-8CA0-98BE2F5BA4EE@estacado.net> <D49DE828-9A19-456A-882B-DE344910093A@ag-projects.com>
To: Adrian Georgescu <ag@ag-projects.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082)
Cc: Achint Aggarwal <Achint.Aggarwal@globallogic.com>, Umang Singh <Umang.Singh@globallogic.com>, simple@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Simple] TCP connection reuse query
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Hi Adrian,

I assume you were applying traffic shaping at the IP or TCP layer, =
right?  Did your traffic shaping device have awareness of the MSRP =
session purpose or content?

It seems like a relay could apply policies for uneven mixing of sessions =
onto a TCP connection.=20

Thanks!

Ben.

On Mar 2, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Adrian Georgescu wrote:

> I remember running into other issues as well when building the MSRP =
Relay a few years ago and we gave up on reusing connections. I remember =
the critical one was the impossibility to apply different QoS / =
throttling techniques if multiple sessions are sharing the same TCP =
connection. If each session uses its own TCP connection is possible to =
prioritize and shape the traffic very easily depending on the type of =
sessions (e.g. chat or large file transfer).
>=20
> Adrian
>=20
> On Mar 2, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>=20
>>> On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:14 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Hi,
>>>> =20
>>>> RFC 4976 Section 3 says:
>>>> =93For client-to-client communication, the sender of a message =
typically
>>>>    opens a new TCP connection (with or without TLS) if one is =
needed.
>>>>    Relays reuse existing connections first, but can open new =
connections
>>>>    (typically to other relays) to deliver requests such as SEND or
>>>>    REPORT.=94
>>>> =20
>>>> Consider a scenario where an MSRP client establishes an MSRP =
session and client=92s relay opens a connection with its next hop to =
route the MSRP packets coming to it from the client.
>>>> Now if the same client wants to start another session then how can =
the same relay reuse the same connection opened earlier for this new =
session??
>>>=20
>>> The general idea is, If the relay receives a SEND request where the =
next hop URI in the To-Path field resolves to an address and port to =
which the relay already has a TCP connection, it sends the forwards the =
request over that connection.
>>>=20
>>> Of course, it only works if the next hop is the same for both =
sessions.
>>=20
>> After sending that, it occurred to me that things could be a little =
more complicated if TLS is used (which it should be). You would also =
want to make sure that the domain name associated with next hop of the =
new session matched the TLS cert from that end of the existing =
connection. The simplest approach would be to only reuse if the domain =
part of the MSRP URI for the new session matched the one from an =
existing one. It might be possible to be more aggressive by saying the =
new domain name from the new URI could match any name from the next hop =
TLS cert, but that starts to get complicated.
>>=20
>> IIRC, neither RFC discusses this in any detail. Does anyone else have =
thoughts on the topic?
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Simple mailing list
>> Simple@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>=20


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>Hi Adrian,</div><div><br></div><div>I assume you were applying =
traffic shaping at the IP or TCP layer, right? &nbsp;Did your traffic =
shaping device have awareness of the MSRP session purpose or =
content?</div><div><br></div><div>It seems like a relay could apply =
policies for uneven mixing of sessions onto a TCP =
connection.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Ben.</div><br><div><div>On Mar 2, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Adrian Georgescu =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>I remember running =
into other issues as well when building the MSRP Relay a few years ago =
and we gave up on reusing connections. I remember the critical one was =
the impossibility to apply different QoS / throttling techniques if =
multiple sessions are sharing the same TCP connection. If each session =
uses its own TCP connection is possible to prioritize and shape the =
traffic very easily depending on the type of sessions (e.g. chat or =
large file =
transfer).</div><div><br></div><div>Adrian</div><div><br></div><div><div>O=
n Mar 2, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Feb 28, 2011, =
at 11:37 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Feb 28, 2011, at =
11:14 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"Section1" =
style=3D"page: Section1; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">RFC 4976 Section 3 =
says:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">=93<font color=3D"black"><span =
style=3D"color: black; ">For client-to-client communication, the sender =
of a message typically<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; opens a new TCP connection (with or =
without TLS) if one is needed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; Relays reuse existing connections =
first, but can open new connections<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; (typically to other relays) to =
deliver requests such as SEND or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
REPORT.=94<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Consider a scenario where an MSRP =
client establishes an MSRP session and client=92s relay opens a =
connection with its next hop to route the MSRP packets coming to it from =
the client.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Now if the same client wants to =
start another session then how can the same relay reuse the same =
connection opened earlier for this new =
session??</span></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>The general idea is, If the relay receives a SEND request where =
the next hop URI in the To-Path field resolves to an address and port to =
which the relay already has a TCP connection, it sends the forwards the =
request over that connection.</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, it =
only works if the next hop is the same for both =
sessions.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>After =
sending that, it occurred to me that things could be a little more =
complicated if TLS is used (which it should be). You would also want to =
make sure that the domain name associated with next hop of the new =
session matched the TLS cert from that end of the existing connection. =
The simplest approach would be to only reuse if the domain part of the =
MSRP URI for the new session matched the one from an existing one. It =
might be possible to be more aggressive by saying the new domain name =
from the new URI could match any name from the next hop TLS cert, but =
that starts to get complicated.</div><div><br></div><div>IIRC, neither =
RFC discusses this in any detail. Does anyone else have thoughts on the =
topic?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div>____________________=
___________________________<br>Simple mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Simple@ietf.org">Simple@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/simple</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote>=
</div><br></body></html>=

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From: Adrian Georgescu <ag@ag-projects.com>
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References: <1B8AC001C412D84987E59160179F9D2802009B32@ex3-del1.synapse.com> <57F36E23-F8E4-46B0-B680-B8B7CB874BB8@nostrum.com> <4FD0C72E-29BE-4278-8CA0-98BE2F5BA4EE@estacado.net> <D49DE828-9A19-456A-882B-DE344910093A@ag-projects.com> <C6D3C059-511A-46D9-91E9-9C5A7CA882B4@estacado.net>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>
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Subject: Re: [Simple] TCP connection reuse query
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Yes indeed you could but the load and complexity would be much bigger if =
you move into the application something that you already have at TCP/IP =
level.

Adrian

On Mar 2, 2011, at 3:44 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:

> Hi Adrian,
>=20
> I assume you were applying traffic shaping at the IP or TCP layer, =
right?  Did your traffic shaping device have awareness of the MSRP =
session purpose or content?
>=20
> It seems like a relay could apply policies for uneven mixing of =
sessions onto a TCP connection.=20
>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Ben.
>=20
> On Mar 2, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Adrian Georgescu wrote:
>=20
>> I remember running into other issues as well when building the MSRP =
Relay a few years ago and we gave up on reusing connections. I remember =
the critical one was the impossibility to apply different QoS / =
throttling techniques if multiple sessions are sharing the same TCP =
connection. If each session uses its own TCP connection is possible to =
prioritize and shape the traffic very easily depending on the type of =
sessions (e.g. chat or large file transfer).
>>=20
>> Adrian
>>=20
>> On Mar 2, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 28, 2011, at 11:14 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> =20
>>>>> RFC 4976 Section 3 says:
>>>>> =93For client-to-client communication, the sender of a message =
typically
>>>>>    opens a new TCP connection (with or without TLS) if one is =
needed.
>>>>>    Relays reuse existing connections first, but can open new =
connections
>>>>>    (typically to other relays) to deliver requests such as SEND or
>>>>>    REPORT.=94
>>>>> =20
>>>>> Consider a scenario where an MSRP client establishes an MSRP =
session and client=92s relay opens a connection with its next hop to =
route the MSRP packets coming to it from the client.
>>>>> Now if the same client wants to start another session then how can =
the same relay reuse the same connection opened earlier for this new =
session??
>>>>=20
>>>> The general idea is, If the relay receives a SEND request where the =
next hop URI in the To-Path field resolves to an address and port to =
which the relay already has a TCP connection, it sends the forwards the =
request over that connection.
>>>>=20
>>>> Of course, it only works if the next hop is the same for both =
sessions.
>>>=20
>>> After sending that, it occurred to me that things could be a little =
more complicated if TLS is used (which it should be). You would also =
want to make sure that the domain name associated with next hop of the =
new session matched the TLS cert from that end of the existing =
connection. The simplest approach would be to only reuse if the domain =
part of the MSRP URI for the new session matched the one from an =
existing one. It might be possible to be more aggressive by saying the =
new domain name from the new URI could match any name from the next hop =
TLS cert, but that starts to get complicated.
>>>=20
>>> IIRC, neither RFC discusses this in any detail. Does anyone else =
have thoughts on the topic?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Simple mailing list
>>> Simple@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Simple mailing list
> Simple@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple


--Apple-Mail-3-794895545
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	charset=windows-1252

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Yes =
indeed you could but the load and complexity would be much bigger if you =
move into the application something that you already have at TCP/IP =
level.<div><br></div><div>Adrian<br><div><br><div><div>On Mar 2, 2011, =
at 3:44 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Hi =
Adrian,</div><div><br></div><div>I assume you were applying traffic =
shaping at the IP or TCP layer, right? &nbsp;Did your traffic shaping =
device have awareness of the MSRP session purpose or =
content?</div><div><br></div><div>It seems like a relay could apply =
policies for uneven mixing of sessions onto a TCP =
connection.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Ben.</div><br><div><div>On Mar 2, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Adrian Georgescu =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>I remember running =
into other issues as well when building the MSRP Relay a few years ago =
and we gave up on reusing connections. I remember the critical one was =
the impossibility to apply different QoS / throttling techniques if =
multiple sessions are sharing the same TCP connection. If each session =
uses its own TCP connection is possible to prioritize and shape the =
traffic very easily depending on the type of sessions (e.g. chat or =
large file =
transfer).</div><div><br></div><div>Adrian</div><div><br></div><div><div>O=
n Mar 2, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Feb 28, 2011, =
at 11:37 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Feb 28, 2011, at =
11:14 PM, Achint Aggarwal wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div =
lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"Section1" =
style=3D"page: Section1; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: =
0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">RFC 4976 Section 3 =
says:<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">=93<font color=3D"black"><span =
style=3D"color: black; ">For client-to-client communication, the sender =
of a message typically<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; opens a new TCP connection (with or =
without TLS) if one is needed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; Relays reuse existing connections =
first, but can open new connections<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; (typically to other relays) to =
deliver requests such as SEND or<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
margin-left: 0in; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; color: black; ">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
REPORT.=94<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" =
face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; color: black; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Consider a scenario where an MSRP =
client establishes an MSRP session and client=92s relay opens a =
connection with its next hop to route the MSRP packets coming to it from =
the client.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0in; =
margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; "><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; ">Now if the same client wants to =
start another session then how can the same relay reuse the same =
connection opened earlier for this new =
session??</span></font></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>The general idea is, If the relay receives a SEND request where =
the next hop URI in the To-Path field resolves to an address and port to =
which the relay already has a TCP connection, it sends the forwards the =
request over that connection.</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, it =
only works if the next hop is the same for both =
sessions.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>After =
sending that, it occurred to me that things could be a little more =
complicated if TLS is used (which it should be). You would also want to =
make sure that the domain name associated with next hop of the new =
session matched the TLS cert from that end of the existing connection. =
The simplest approach would be to only reuse if the domain part of the =
MSRP URI for the new session matched the one from an existing one. It =
might be possible to be more aggressive by saying the new domain name =
from the new URI could match any name from the next hop TLS cert, but =
that starts to get complicated.</div><div><br></div><div>IIRC, neither =
RFC discusses this in any detail. Does anyone else have thoughts on the =
topic?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div>____________________=
___________________________<br>Simple mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Simple@ietf.org">Simple@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/simple">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/simple</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote>=
</div><br></div>_______________________________________________<br>Simple =
mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Simple@ietf.org">Simple@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/simple<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></h=
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the SIP for Instant Messaging and Presence Leveraging Extensions Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Multi-party Chat Using the Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP)
	Author(s)       : A. Niemi, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-simple-chat-08.txt
	Pages           : 32
	Date            : 2011-03-07

The Message Session Relay Protocol (MSRP) defines a mechanism for
sending instant messages within a peer-to-peer session, negotiated
using the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the Session
Description Protocol (SDP).  This document defines the necessary
tools for establishing multi-party chat sessions, or chat rooms,
using MSRP.

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Thread-Topic: Multi-party Chat version 08 submitted
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A new version of Multi-party Chat Using the Message Session Relay Protocol
(MSRP) has been submitted.

The new version can be found here:
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-simple-chat-08.txt
  =20
Changes from version -07
1. Various changes and editorials changes from Ben Campbell=B9s review
2. Proposed nickname extension to RFC 4575 removed
3. Conference Event Package terminology added
4. Normative references added to RFC 4575, draft-ietf-xcon-event-package an=
d
draft-ietf-xcon-common-data-model

Thanks,
Geir A


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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Multi-party Chat version 08 submitted</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>A new version of Multi-party Chat Using the Message Session Relay Protocol=
 (MSRP) has been submitted.<BR>
<BR>
The new version can be found here:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-simple-chat-08.txt">http://www.i=
etf.org/id/draft-ietf-simple-chat-08.txt</a><BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
Changes from version -07<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><OL><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN=
 STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Various changes and editorials changes from Ben Camp=
bell&#8217;s review=20
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Proposed nickname extension to RFC 4575 removed
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Conference Event Package terminology added
</SPAN></FONT><LI><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STY=
LE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Normative references added to RFC 4575, draft-ietf-xcon-=
event-package and draft-ietf-xcon-common-data-model<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></OL><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN ST=
YLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
Thanks,<BR>
Geir A<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
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From ibc@aliax.net  Sun Mar 13 15:14:35 2011
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2011/3/2 Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>:
> Did your traffic shaping device have awareness of the MSRP session purpos=
e
> or content?

NAT routers with SIP ALG enabled by default are a pain for SIP
protocol as most of them break SIP. And now, do we really want to
promote "MSRP aware" devices?

--=20
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>

From ben@estacado.net  Sun Mar 13 18:43:53 2011
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Don't get me wrong--I was not trying to recommend it. I was just trying =
to understand the scenario.

On Mar 13, 2011, at 5:15 PM, I=F1aki Baz Castillo wrote:

> 2011/3/2 Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>:
>> Did your traffic shaping device have awareness of the MSRP session =
purpose
>> or content?
>=20
> NAT routers with SIP ALG enabled by default are a pain for SIP
> protocol as most of them break SIP. And now, do we really want to
> promote "MSRP aware" devices?
>=20
> --=20
> I=F1aki Baz Castillo
> <ibc@aliax.net>


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Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 02:50:17 +0100
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= <ibc@aliax.net>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>
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Cc: simple@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Simple] TCP connection reuse query
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2011/3/14 Ben Campbell <ben@estacado.net>:
> Don't get me wrong--I was not trying to recommend it. I was just trying t=
o understand the scenario.

Sure, I just meant that SIP should not rely on SIP-aware routers as
IMHO most of them break the signalling.

Regards.

--=20
I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo
<ibc@aliax.net>

From ag@ag-projects.com  Thu Mar 24 07:33:45 2011
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From: Adrian Georgescu <ag@ag-projects.com>
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Subject: [Simple] SylkServer and Blink with support for MSRP chat and private messaging
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For the MSRP aficionados

http://sylkserver.com/

SylkServer version 1.1.0 has been released with support for MSRP chat =
with private messaging, integration with audio, Conferencing for User =
Agents RFC4579 (add/remove participants using REFER method) and =
Conference Event Package RFC4575.

The software is open source and is available as debian package, tar =
archive and hosted on http://sip2sip.info for remote testing:=20

http://sylkserver.com/testing.phtml

All correspondent client features are now available in Blink for Mac. A =
video with the features in action is available here:

http://icanblink.com/movies/Blink-ServerConference.mov

Normative References

	=95 MSRP and its relay extension RFC4975, RFC4976
	=95 MSRP switch draft-ietf-simple-chat-08
	=95 Indication of Message Composition RFC3994
	=95 CPIM Message Format RFC3862
	=95 Conference event package RFC4575
	=95 A Framework for Conferencing with SIP RFC4353
	=95 Conferencing for User Agents RFC4579

Regards,
Adrian


From Gaurav.Nangla@globallogic.com  Thu Mar 31 19:50:17 2011
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Subject: [Simple] Alternate Connection Model Query
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Hello,

I've got an alternate connection model query.

Suppose there's a SBC/B2BUA lying in the signalling and media paths =
between two MSRP UAs.
The SBC manipulates the 'setup' attribute in a manner such that both =
parties can setup a MSRP session despite them both being behind =
NATs/firewalls.

i.e. 'a=3Dsetup:active' is received in OFFER from UA1, 'actpass' is sent =
in OFFER to UA2 by the SBC, 'active' is received from UA2 in ANSWER, =
'passive' is sent in ANSWER to UA1 by the SBC.  =20

What this means is that the SBC will be receiving SYNs from both the UAs =
and handling them using the 'TCP splicing' technique.
It's basically making both the UAs think that they've each initiated and =
setup a MSRP TCP connection.

Scenario further described in greater detail at: =20
http://lists.ag-projects.com/pipermail/blink/2011-March/001263.html


Q1> Does this mean that the alternate connection model is sufficient by =
itself for an end to end MSRP session?
Q2> Also on a related note, is a UA restricted (by the specs) from =
responding to a SEND request received while it's waiting for a response =
to its own unanswered SEND request?


Gaurav





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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hello,<BR>
<BR>
I've got an alternate connection model query.<BR>
<BR>
Suppose there's a SBC/B2BUA lying in the signalling and media paths =
between two MSRP UAs.<BR>
The SBC manipulates the 'setup' attribute in a manner such that both =
parties can setup a MSRP session despite them both being behind =
NATs/firewalls.<BR>
<BR>
i.e. 'a=3Dsetup:active' is received in OFFER from UA1, 'actpass' is sent =
in OFFER to UA2 by the SBC, 'active' is received from UA2 in ANSWER, =
'passive' is sent in ANSWER to UA1 by the SBC.&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>
What this means is that the SBC will be receiving SYNs from both the UAs =
and handling them using the 'TCP splicing' technique.<BR>
It's basically making both the UAs think that they've each initiated and =
setup a MSRP TCP connection.<BR>
<BR>
Scenario further described in greater detail at:&nbsp;<BR>
<A =
HREF=3D"http://lists.ag-projects.com/pipermail/blink/2011-March/001263.ht=
ml">http://lists.ag-projects.com/pipermail/blink/2011-March/001263.html</=
A><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Q1&gt; Does this mean that the alternate connection model is sufficient =
by itself for an end to end MSRP session?<BR>
Q2&gt; Also on a related note, is a UA restricted (by the specs) from =
responding to a SEND request received while it's waiting for a response =
to its own unanswered SEND request?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Gaurav<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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