Subject: Re: [Slim] Open Issues on draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language

From: Natasha Rooney <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 09:45:27 +0000

The last remaining item of Ticket 26 is asking for an explanation of the role of * only. Can we get this added and then close the ticket?

I’ll address 34 separately.

Natasha Rooney | Internet Engineering Director | Internet and Web Team | Technology | GSMA | [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype: [email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>

On 29 May 2017, at 23:17, Randall Gellens <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:

At 8:49 PM +0200 5/29/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:

Den 2017-05-29 kl. 00:15, skrev Randall Gellens:
I think the edits so far address #19, #27, 28 so they can be closed. #38, #39 are addressed in -09 so I will post that and those can be closed.  I think #26, #29, #32, #34, #35 were not accepted.
This is my view:

#26 can be left non-accepted if #34 is accepted.

#26 can be done with an Informational draft that provides advice to implementers, as previously discussed.  #34 was discussed a long time ago and it was decided that we did not need to add complexity and that we would keep the more simple syntax.

 But if #34 is not accepted, we could need #26.
#29 is ok to not accept. All other aspects of the attribute registrations are solved.

#34: I have not seen anything about not accepting it, so I suggest to accept it.
#35 syntax for bidirectionally symmetric cases - will increase complexity - I would suggest to not accept it, but I cannot remember that we concluded that before.

#32 requires the two extensions about relative preference and simultaneity to be solved. We have not said that we would not accept #32.  I suggest that we accept it.

We've repeatedly decided to not add relative preferences (nor any coordination between media) in this draft.  This can all be done in a subsequent draft.

--Randy

Gunnar

--Randy

At 11:25 AM -0700 4/25/17, Bernard Aboba wrote:

 Currently 10 Issues remain open from IETF Last Call:

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1

 These include:

<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=ticket&asc=1&page=1>Ticket<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=summary&asc=1&page=1>Summary<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=component&asc=1&page=1>Component<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=version&asc=1&page=1>Version<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=milestone&asc=1&page=1>Milestone<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=type&asc=1&page=1>Type<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=owner&asc=1&page=1>Owner<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=status&asc=1&page=1>Status<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=created&asc=1&page=1>Created<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/27>#27<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/27>The cases in the "Silly states" section 5.4 are not all silly.negotiating-human-language2.0<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 22, 2017<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/19>#19<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/19>Use Media Type registration templatemultilangcontentenhancement<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 17, 2016<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/28>#28<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/28>Examples section 5.5 requires expansionnegotiating-human-language2.0<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 22, 2017<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/32>#32<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/32>Audio/Video Coordinationnegotiating-human-language2.0<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 22, 2017<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/34>#34<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/34>Use the Accept-Language syntaxnegotiating-human-language2.0<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 22, 2017<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/35>#35<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/35>Have an attribute to abbreviate the bidirectionally-symmetric casenegotiating-human-language2.0<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 22, 2017<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/38>#38<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/38>Routing out of scopenegotiating-human-language1.0<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 25, 2017<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/39>#39<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/39>Syntax Collapsenegotiating-human-language1.0<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 25, 2017<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/26>#26<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/26>Make use of the asterisk modifier on media level with session scope also for media level purposesnegotiating-human-language2.0<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1enhancement<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]> 22, 2017<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/29>#29<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/29>Include more fields for attribute registration from 4566bis

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-----------------------------------------
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--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
I do not need to explain why I say things.  That's the interesting thing
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From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 06:49:56 -0700

At 9:45 AM +0000 6/1/17, Natasha Rooney wrote:

>  The last remaining item of Ticket 26 is asking 
> for an explanation of the role of * only. Can 
> we get this added and then close the ticket?

The syntax does not permit a * only, there has to be at least one language tag.

>
>  I'll address 34 separately. 
>
>
>  Natasha Rooney | Internet Engineering Director 
> | Internet and Web Team | Technology | GSMA 
> | <mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] | 
> +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | 
> Skype: <mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]
>
>>  On 29 May 2017, at 23:17, Randall Gellens 
>> <<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>  I think the edits so far address #19, #27, 
>>>> 28 so they can be closed. #38, #39 are 
>>>> addressed in -09 so I will post that and 
>>>> those can be closed.  I think #26, #29, #32, 
>>>> #34, #35 were not accepted.
>>>>
>>>  This is my view:
>>>
>>  #26 can be done with an Informational draft 
>> that provides advice to implementers, as 
>> previously discussed.  #34 was discussed a 
>> long time ago and it was decided that we did 
>> not need to add complexity and that we would 
>> keep the more simple syntax.
>>
>>>  #35 syntax for bidirectionally symmetric 
>>> cases - will increase complexity - I would 
>>> suggest to not accept it, but I cannot 
>>> remember that we concluded that before.
>>>
>>>  #32 requires the two extensions about 
>>> relative preference and simultaneity to be 
>>> solved. We have not said that we would not 
>>> accept #32.  I suggest that we accept it.
>>>
>>
>>  We've repeatedly decided to not add relative 
>> preferences (nor any coordination between 
>> media) in this draft.  This can all be done in 
>> a subsequent draft.
>>
>>  --Randy
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Gunnar
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --Randy
>>>>
>>>>> <<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1><https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   These include:
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>> <<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=ticket&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=ticket&asc=1&page=1>Ticket<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=summary&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=summary&asc=1&page=1>Summary<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=component&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=component&asc=1&page=1>Component<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=version&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=version&asc=1&page=1>Version<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=milestone&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=milestone&asc=1&page=1>Milestone<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=type&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=type&asc=1&page=1>Type<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=owner&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=owner&asc=1&page=1> 
>>>>> Owner<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=status&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=status&asc=1&page=1>Status<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=created&asc=1&page=1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/report/1?sort=created&asc=1&page=1>Created<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/27>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/27>#27<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/27>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/27>The 
>>>>> cases in the "Silly states" section 5.4 are 
>>>>> not all 
>>>>> silly.negotiating-human-language2.0<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<<mailto:[email-masked]>mailto:[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 22, 
>>>>> 2017<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/19>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/19>#19<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/19>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/19>Use 
>>>>> Media Type registration 
>>>>> templatemultilangcontentenhancement<<mailto:[email-masked]>mailto:[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 17, 
>>>>> 2016<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/28>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/28>#28<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/28>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/28>Examples 
>>>>> section 5.5 requires 
>>>>> expansionnegotiating-human-language2.0<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:rg%<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 22, 
>>>>> 2017<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/32>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/32>#32<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/32>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/32>Audio/Video 
>>>>> Coordinationnegotiating-human-language2.0<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:rg%<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 22, 
>>>>> 2017<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/34>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/34>#34<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/34>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/34>Use 
>>>>> the Accept-Language 
>>>>> syntaxnegotiating-human-language2.0<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:rg%<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 22, 
>>>>> 2017<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/35>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/35>#35<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/35>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/35>Have 
>>>>> an attribute to abbreviate the 
>>>>> bidirectionally-symmetric 
>>>>> casenegotiating-human-language2.0<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<mailto:rg%<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 22, 
>>>>> 2017<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/38>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/38>#38<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/38>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/38>Routing 
>>>>> out of 
>>>>> scopenegotiating-human-language1.0<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<<mailto:[email-masked]>mailto:[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 25, 
>>>>> 2017<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/39>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/39>#39<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/39>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/39>Syntax 
>>>>> Collapsenegotiating-human-language1.0<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1defect<<mailto:[email-masked]>mailto:[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 25, 
>>>>> 2017<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/26>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/26>#26<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/26>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/26>Make 
>>>>> use of the asterisk modifier on media level 
>>>>> with session scope also for media level 
>>>>> purposesnegotiating-human-language2.0<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/milestone/milestone1>milestone1enhancement<<mailto:[email-masked]>mailto:[email-masked]><mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>>>>> 22, 
>>>>> 2017<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/29>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/29>#29<<https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/29>https://trac.ietf.org/trac/slim/ticket/29>Include 
>>>>> more fields for attribute registration from 
>>>>> 4566bis
>>>>>
>>>>>   <mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]
>>>>> 
>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  <mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]
>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  Randall Gellens
>>  <mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]
>  This email and its attachments are intended for 
> the above named only and may be confidential. 
> If they have come to you in error you must take 
> no action based on them, nor must you copy or 
> show them to anyone; please reply to this email 
> or call +44 207 356 0600 and highlight the 
> error.

-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
The First Amendment is often inconvenient. But that is besides the
point.  Inconvenience does not absolve the government of its
obligation to tolerate speech. --Justice Anthony Kennedy, in 91-155

---

From: Natasha Rooney <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 14:00:39 +0000

On 1 Jun 2017, at 14:49, Randall Gellens <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>> wrote:

That’s fine - but can we just explain that somewhere?

---

From: Gunnar Hellström <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 16:19:39 +0200

Den 2017-06-01 kl. 15:49, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>  The last remaining item of Ticket 26 is asking for an explanation of 
>> the role of * only. Can we get this added and then close the ticket?
>
I guess that Natasha means that it is only the description of the use of 
the asterisk that is needed in ticket #26.

I have provided an even better motivated use of the asterisk as a media 
level parameter in a very recent proposal.
It is under subject: "New wording for the use of the asterisk in 
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language"
It can be entered as a solution proposal for ticket #26.

I think that without that wording, it is not possible to have the 
asterisk as a media level parameter.

However, it is depending on Ticket #34. So, a decision on #34 is needed 
first.

Regards
Gunnar

>>  Natasha Rooney | Internet Engineering Director | Internet and Web 
>> Team | Technology | GSMA | <mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] 
>> | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype: 
>> <mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]
>>
>>> <<mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>  I think the edits so far address #19, #27, 28 so they can be 
>>>>> closed. #38, #39 are addressed in -09 so I will post that and 
>>>>> those can be closed.  I think #26, #29, #32, #34, #35 were not 
>>>>> accepted.
>>>>>
>>>>  This is my view:
>>>>
>>>  #26 can be done with an Informational draft that provides advice to 
>>> implementers, as previously discussed.  #34 was discussed a long 
>>> time ago and it was decided that we did not need to add complexity 
>>> and that we would keep the more simple syntax.
>>>
>>>>  #35 syntax for bidirectionally symmetric cases - will increase 
>>>> complexity - I would suggest to not accept it, but I cannot 
>>>>  #32 requires the two extensions about relative preference and 
>>>> simultaneity to be solved. We have not said that we would not 
>>>  We've repeatedly decided to not add relative preferences (nor any 
>>> coordination between media) in this draft.  This can all be done in 
>>> a subsequent draft.
>>>
>>>  --Randy
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  --Randy
>>>>>
>>>>>> cases in the "Silly states" section 5.4 are not all 
>>>>>> an attribute to abbreviate the bidirectionally-symmetric 
>>>>>> use of the asterisk modifier on media level with session scope 
>>>>>> also for media level 
>>>>>> more fields for attribute registration from 4566bis
>>>>>>
>>  This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only 
>> and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must 
>> take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to 
>> anyone; please reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600 and 
>> highlight the error.
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
[email-masked]
+46 708 204 288

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:03:12 -0700

At 2:00 PM +0000 6/1/17, Natasha Rooney wrote:

>>  On 1 Jun 2017, at 14:49, Randall Gellens 
>  That's fine - but can we just explain that somewhere?

We do.  Section 5.2 says:

    In an offer, each value MAY have an asterisk appended as the final
    value.  An asterisk appended to either value in an offer indicates a
    request by the caller to the callee to not fail the call if there is
    no language in common.  See Section 5.3 for more information and
    discussion.

Section 5.3 says:

    The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer, if
    the last value of any 'hlang-recv' or 'hlang-send' for any media is
    an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the call.  The
    called party MAY ignore the indication, e.g., for the emergency
    services use case, regardless of the absence of an asterisk, a PSAP
    will likely not fail the call; some call centers might reject a call
    even if the offer contains an asterisk.

Section 6.1 says:

    Attribute Syntax:

       hlang-value =  Language-Tag *( SP Language-tag ) [ SP asterisk ]

                            ; Language-Tag as defined in BCP 47

       asterisk    =  "*"   ; an asterisk (0x2A) character

       SP          =  1*" " ; one or more space (0x20) characters

So, the text in both 5.2 and 5.3 make clear that an asterisk may be 
appended, but can't appear on its own.  The text also explains what 
an asterisk means.  The syntax in 6.1 also clearly shows that an 
asterisk can only appear after one or more language tags.

(As a separate issue, Gunnar felt that using the word "value" to mean 
the set of language tags as well as each language tag or asterisk is 
confusing, so I'm thinking I will use the word "token" for the second 
use, to refer to each tag or asterisk.)
-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Never look at the trombones, it only encourages them.
                                   --Richard Strauss

---

From: Randall Gellens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 10:03:55 -0700

At 4:19 PM +0200 6/1/17, Gunnar Hellström wrote:

>>>   The last remaining item of Ticket 26 is 
>>> asking for an explanation of the role of * 
>>> only. Can we get this added and then close 
>>> the ticket?
>>
>  I guess that Natasha means that it is only the 
> description of the use of the asterisk that is 
> needed in ticket #26.

If that is the case, the current text sufficiently explains it.

>
>  I have provided an even better motivated use of 
> the asterisk as a media level parameter in a 
> very recent proposal.
>  I think that without that wording, it is not 
> possible to have the asterisk as a media level 
> parameter.
>
>  However, it is depending on Ticket #34. So, a 
> decision on #34 is needed first.
>
>  Regards
>  Gunnar
>
>>
>>>
>>>   Natasha Rooney | Internet Engineering 
>>> Director | Internet and Web Team | Technology 
>>> | GSMA | 
>>> <mailto:[email-masked]>[email-masked] | 
>>> +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype: 
>>>>>>   I think the edits so far address #19, 
>>>>>> #27, 28 so they can be closed. #38, #39 
>>>>>> are addressed in -09 so I will post that 
>>>>>> and those can be closed.  I think #26, 
>>>>>> #29, #32, #34, #35 were not accepted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>   This is my view:
>>>>>
>>>>>   #29 is ok to not accept. All other aspects 
>>>>> of the attribute registrations are solved.
>>>>>
>>>>   We've repeatedly decided to not add 
>>>> relative preferences (nor any coordination 
>>>> between media) in this draft.  This can all 
>>>> be done in a subsequent draft.
>>>>
>>>>   --Randy
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Gunnar
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   --Randy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> use of the asterisk modifier on media 
>>>>>>> level with session scope also for media 
>>>>>>> level 
>>>   This email and its attachments are intended 
>>> for the above named only and may be 
>>> confidential. If they have come to you in 
>>> error you must take no action based on them, 
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Voltaire said "The art of government consists of taking as much money
as possible from one party of citizens to give to the other."  The
difference between the dominant political parties is which groups they
assign which roles.