Subject: E-mail address validation

From: "Bob Jueneman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 17:53:27 -0700

Paul and Bartley make a good point regarding who the reply should be sent to.
Although this a second order problem, it still appears to be a problem.

The first issue is what should be displayed as the confirmed originator/signer
of the message. and I think we are beginning to get a handle on that problem.

The second issue is one of routing the reply, and here there are so many 
differences in the way replies are handled that I'm not even sure I understand 
all of the problems, much less the solutions.

I do know that mail lists frequently mangle the From address, putting the address 
of the mail list in the cc list, etc., etc. 

Likewise, people that have multiple accounts for a number of different reasons
often use a single Reply-To address to consolidate responses.

And if the reply is encrypted, it seems a bit much to ask the sender to somehow 
read my mind as to which processor containing which certificate/key I am going 
to use to decrypt the response.

And finally, if this is a really serious security issue, which I'm not quite convinced 
that it is, what should be done about all of the other To, Cc, and Bcc addressees?

So let me take a stab at a revised solution that includes both problems, 
although this may turn out to be only half-baked.

1.  The UI for a signed message SHOULD display the originator's "real" common 
name, which may be further qualified, if desired.  The originator's RFC822 address
from the certificate should also be displayed, and the DN as well, in that order of 
preference if those fields are all supplied, but it must be recognized that some 
may be missing.

2.  The UI SHOULD attempt to match the originator's RFC822 addr-spec address from
the certificate to the From address of the message, and SHOULD flag a mismatch,
but MUST NOT require that the RFC822 name be present in the certificate.

3.  In the event of an encrypted message, including a reply to a From or Reply-to 
address, the To, Cc, and Bcc addresses SHOULD all be matched against the 
RFC822 address in that user's certificate, HOWEVER THAT CERTIFICATE
WAS SELECTED, and SHOULD flag any mismatch with a warning message.

Does this take care of the problem?  Do we need to say something about 
checking the outgoing From or Reply-to addresses in the case of a signed message
to make sure they conform to the user's certificate?  If so, which certificate -- the 
signing certificate, or the encryption certificate?

Hmm. This gets more and more complicated.

Bob

>>> <[email-masked]> 02/15/00 03:29AM >>>
Just to play Devils advocate...
There is a third address to be considered, the Reply-to. This is a specific 
request from the originator of the message to reply to another address. If it 
is present we ought not reply to either of the other 2 addresses.

Regards,

Bartley O'Malley
Citibank NA
Lewisham House
25 Molesworth Street
London
SE13 7EX
England

Tel +44-020-7500-6473
Fax +44-020-7500-8880

-----Original Message-----
From: phoffman [SMTP:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 12:01 AM
To: ietf-smime
Cc: phoffman
Subject: Re: Problem for public CAs

At 04:10 PM 2/14/00 -0700, Bob Jueneman wrote:
>Instead, in the case of a signed message the From address should be viewed
>as secondary, and the certificate contents the primary information.

 From a security standpoint, this is right. From a UI standpoint, it might 
not be. Assume I have a different email address in my cert than in the 
From: header of a message I send you, that your S/MIME client has informed 
you of that, and you agreed. Now you want to reply to my message. You 
probably don't want to reply to the email address in my cert, but you 
might. There are essentially two From vales: the certificate one and the 
insecure-and-possibly-altered one.

>Of course, we have to face the fact that NEITHER the DN nor the RFC822 address
>may be particularly relevant or informative.

Exactly right.

And, no, I'm not proposing a solution here.

--Paul Hoffman, Director
--Internet Mail Consortium

---

From: "Piers Chivers" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:27:30 -0000

Bob,
I thought this group was concerned about protocol whereas what you are
describing is largely human-machine-interface issues.  If we are going to
get into that arena I could argue that all signed receipts should be
displayed as green.  I expect that suggestion would be unacceptable to those
who like red!

Having said that, I think the addressing issues need to be clarified.  We
have the added complication of combining SMIME and X.400 where there are
both P1 and P2 addresses.

I mostly agree with your suggestions below but think they need to be worked
upon to become definitive.  I'm not sure if this WG is the right forum for
that discussion?

The most difficult approach is to educate users that who routed the message
(the envelope addressees) is not necessarily the same as who generated the
content.  Perhaps our UIs should improve to make this distinction more
explicit.

Piers

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Bob Jueneman
Sent: 16 February 2000 00:53
To: [email-masked]
Subject: E-mail address validation

Paul and Bartley make a good point regarding who the reply should be sent
to.
Although this a second order problem, it still appears to be a problem.

The first issue is what should be displayed as the confirmed
originator/signer
of the message. and I think we are beginning to get a handle on that
problem.

The second issue is one of routing the reply, and here there are so many
differences in the way replies are handled that I'm not even sure I
understand
all of the problems, much less the solutions.

I do know that mail lists frequently mangle the From address, putting the
address
of the mail list in the cc list, etc., etc.

Likewise, people that have multiple accounts for a number of different
reasons
often use a single Reply-To address to consolidate responses.

And if the reply is encrypted, it seems a bit much to ask the sender to
somehow
read my mind as to which processor containing which certificate/key I am
going
to use to decrypt the response.

And finally, if this is a really serious security issue, which I'm not quite
convinced
that it is, what should be done about all of the other To, Cc, and Bcc
addressees?

1.  The UI for a signed message SHOULD display the originator's "real"
common
name, which may be further qualified, if desired.  The originator's RFC822
address
from the certificate should also be displayed, and the DN as well, in that
order of
preference if those fields are all supplied, but it must be recognized that
some
may be missing.

2.  The UI SHOULD attempt to match the originator's RFC822 addr-spec address
from
the certificate to the From address of the message, and SHOULD flag a
mismatch,
but MUST NOT require that the RFC822 name be present in the certificate.

3.  In the event of an encrypted message, including a reply to a From or
Reply-to
address, the To, Cc, and Bcc addresses SHOULD all be matched against the
RFC822 address in that user's certificate, HOWEVER THAT CERTIFICATE
WAS SELECTED, and SHOULD flag any mismatch with a warning message.

Does this take care of the problem?  Do we need to say something about
checking the outgoing From or Reply-to addresses in the case of a signed
message
to make sure they conform to the user's certificate?  If so, which
certificate -- the
signing certificate, or the encryption certificate?

Bob

Just to play Devils advocate...
There is a third address to be considered, the Reply-to. This is a specific
request from the originator of the message to reply to another address. If
it
is present we ought not reply to either of the other 2 addresses.

Regards,

Bartley O'Malley
Citibank NA
Lewisham House
25 Molesworth Street
London
SE13 7EX
England

Tel +44-020-7500-6473
Fax +44-020-7500-8880

-----Original Message-----
From: phoffman [SMTP:[email-masked]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 12:01 AM
To: ietf-smime
Cc: phoffman
Subject: Re: Problem for public CAs

Exactly right.

--Paul Hoffman, Director