From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 1 07:25:42 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07740 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h61BPEl29653 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:25:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XJG6-0007iC-K0 for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 07:25:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07696 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XJG5-0002M2-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 07:25:14 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XJG0-0002Lm-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 07:25:08 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XJFs-0007fQ-Kv; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 07:25:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XJEx-0007Rq-4s for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 07:24:03 -0400 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA07375; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 07:23:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200307011123.HAA07375@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: speechsc@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 07:23:59 -0400 Subject: [Speechsc] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-speechsc-protocol-eval-02.txt Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Speech Services Control Working Group of the IETF. Title : SPEECHSC Protocol Evaluation Author(s) : B. Wyld Filename : draft-ietf-speechsc-protocol-eval-02.txt Pages : 28 Date : 2003-6-30 This document is the Protocol Evaluation Document for the SPEECHSC Working Group. Section 3 provides the summary of the individual protocol comparisons (in the sections 4-N following) against the SPEECHSC requirements [1]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-speechsc-protocol-eval-02.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-speechsc-protocol-eval-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-speechsc-protocol-eval-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-6-30151610.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-speechsc-protocol-eval-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-speechsc-protocol-eval-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2003-6-30151610.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 1 13:48:00 2003 Received: from www1.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA08179 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 13:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) id h5RIOQ723247 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:24:26 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VxtY-00061z-Es for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:24:24 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09636 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Vxst-0005jY-4j; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 14:23:43 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19VuP3-0002NW-UN for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:40:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA27234 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vt73-0002aD-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:18:01 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19Vt6s-0002Zu-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:17:50 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 12449; Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:17:48 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:16:52 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D4F64C4@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: IETF 57 Proposed Agenda Thread-Index: AcM8q17wkwk2h2ifQviaVv0eCOocrg== From: "Eric Burger" To: "IETF SPEECHSC (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Speechsc] IETF 57 Proposed Agenda Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a proposed agenda. If you would like to see other stuff, please = drop me or Dave a note. We need to submit it by close of business = Monday. 5 min Agenda Bashing 5 min Requirements Status 90 min Protocol Work 20 min Analysis Document Other reminders: Time & Place: WEDNESDAY, July 16, 2003 1530-1730 Afternoon Sessions II Hall E2 TSV speechsc Speech Services Control WG=20 June 30, Monday - Registration and Pre-payment cut-off at 12:00 noon ET http://www.ietf.org/meetings/notewell.html Check out http://www.ietf.org/meetings/IETF-57.html for more info. _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 2 11:47:05 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27839 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XjoX-0000EJ-DP for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:46:37 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h62FkXK1000877 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:46:33 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XjoX-0000E3-90 for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:46:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27686 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 2003 11:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XjoW-0002bY-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:46:32 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XjoV-0002bU-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:46:31 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Xjo6-0008Lm-N6; Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:46:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19XQW7-00029T-2D for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 15:10:15 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA09927; Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XPmf-0006p4-00; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:23:17 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19XPmf-0006oy-00; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:23:17 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 29366; Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:23:00 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 14:22:47 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D59E3E6@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: IETF 57 Proposed Agenda Thread-Index: AcM8q17wkwk2h2ifQviaVv0eCOocrgDUokpQ From: "Eric Burger" To: Cc: "IETF SPEECHSC (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Speechsc] SPEECHSC IETF 57 Agenda Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 5 min Agenda Bashing 5 min Requirements Status 90 min Protocol Work 20 min Analysis Document Reading list: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-speechsc-reqts-04.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-speechsc-protocol-eval-02.= txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00.txt _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 3 17:57:36 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08534 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:57:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19YC4i-000470-GT for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:57:08 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h63Lv8eP015806 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:57:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19YC4i-00046r-AL for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:57:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08525 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19YC4f-0004kH-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:57:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19YC4f-0004kD-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:57:05 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19YC4a-000469-Uq; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:57:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19YC2G-00044F-5L for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:54:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA08425; Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19YC2D-0004ih-00; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:54:33 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19YC2C-0004iL-00; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:54:32 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 22540; Thu, 03 Jul 2003 17:54:08 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 17:53:56 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D59E406@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: Preparing WGs for the upcoming meeting in Vienna Thread-Index: AcMw9Io1DwghzI9YR42eguwjcAkXUQQuTSXw From: "Eric Burger" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Speechsc] Preparing WGs for the upcoming meeting in Vienna Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is good advice, which I'm forwarding for your perusal. Don't forget to check out appropriate drafts. You can find them off of = the charter pages or in the I-D directory off of the ietf.org home page. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Hoffman / VPNC [mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org] Sent: Wed, June 11, 2003 12:56 PM To: wgchairs@ietf.org Subject: Preparing WGs for the upcoming meeting in Vienna Greetings again. The meeting in Vienna in a few weeks will probably be the first for many of the people in your WGs. A little WG-wide nudge a few weeks before the face-to-face meeting might get more effective results. This might be a good time to send a message to the WG mailing list, wearing your WG hat, reminding folks: - Newcomers can learn a lot ahead of time by reading the Tao of the IETF at . The newcomer orientation on Sunday (this year, at 1PM) is useful, but it is even more useful if they have read the Tao first. - It is a good idea to at least skim the WG archives for the past four months before the meeting to help prevent rehashing items that have already been decided and to help focus on items that need more review. - Similarly, it is a good idea to re-read the WG's charter before the meeting. Heck, many WG chairs could get value from this... - Many IETF areas have area-wide meetings. People who are interested in more than just one WG can get a feel for what is happening in other areas by going to these meetings. - The "Note Well" notice is serious. It can be found at , and will be given on paper in the registration packets. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Mon Jul 14 11:11:34 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27532 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c4yp-0002hQ-BO for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6EFB7Vc010370 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c4yp-0002hB-6I for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27504 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c4ym-0001Hg-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c4ym-0001Hc-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c4yk-0002fN-Hy; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19c4y4-0002dP-Di for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:10:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27460 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c4y1-0001Gn-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:10:17 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19c4y1-0001GQ-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:10:17 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 1858; Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:09:12 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:09:45 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D4F654E@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: Call for Scribes Thread-Index: AcNKAJVOoCfosH+iQt2l3oGvVsbfsw== From: "Eric Burger" To: "IETF SPEECHSC (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Speechsc] Call for Scribes Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Volunteers are needed for: Scribe Jabber Scribe You must be present to win. Please return this e-mail if you are = volunteering. _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 15 07:53:03 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15441 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cOMF-0001I2-SW for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:52:36 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6FBqZVs004954 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:52:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cOMF-0001Hp-0w for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:52:35 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15434 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cOGr-0001A6-8n; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:47:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cOGU-00019b-Aa for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:46:38 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA15344 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cOGO-000180-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:46:32 -0400 Received: from smtp-102-tuesday.noc.nerim.net ([62.4.17.102] helo=mallaury.noc.nerim.net) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cOFk-00017n-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:45:52 -0400 Received: from weasel.hq.eloquant.com (styx.eloquant.com [80.65.227.37]) by mallaury.noc.nerim.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D941862D08; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:45:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from polo (polo.hq.eloquant.com [192.168.0.131]) by weasel.hq.eloquant.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 60D223B727; Tue, 15 Jul 2003 07:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brian Wyld" To: "Rajiv Dharmadhikari" , "Sarvi Shanmugham" Cc: "Eric Burger" , Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Protocol proposal for SPEECHSC Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 13:40:24 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_02B9_01C34AD6.A5021620" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <52F49B5A0E5B0F4781C9C8F7159409E48059E7@aster.us.int.genesyslab.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_02B9_01C34AD6.A5021620 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_02BA_01C34AD6.A5021620" ------=_NextPart_001_02BA_01C34AD6.A5021620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rajiv, In fact this was a deliberate edit, as I had thought that we had decided = that SIP was primarily a session control protocol and not a resource = control protocol -> hence the resource control section was just "need to = add a message to do X Y Z" and hence not helpful. Given the direction we're heading here with Sarvi's latest submission, I = think the doc doesn't really need this part?=20 Brian =20 -----Message d'origine----- De : Rajiv Dharmadhikari [mailto:rajivdh@genesyslab.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : Saturday, June 28, 2003 02:46 =C3=80 : brian.wyld@eloquant.com; Sarvi Shanmugham Cc : Eric Burger; speechsc@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Protocol proposal for SPEECHSC Brian, Resource control section on SIP is missing in this version. I provided = my updates last week. I hope you get chance to include that in the final = version. Thanks, -Rajiv -----Original Message-----=20 From: Brian Wyld [mailto:brian.wyld@eloquant.com]=20 Sent: Fri 6/27/2003 2:17 PM=20 To: Rajiv Dharmadhikari; Sarvi Shanmugham=20 Cc: Eric Burger; speechsc@ietf.org=20 Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Protocol proposal for SPEECHSC Hi all, Attached you have an updated draft that I propose to submit as 02 = for the next IETF. Essentially its the re-worked doc, with a very short = conclusion.....=20 Major missing part is the web services vs classic session control = section we agreed to add in the last conf call..... Brian -----Message d'origine----- De : Rajiv Dharmadhikari [mailto:rajivdh@genesyslab.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : Friday, June 20, 2003 03:23 =C3=80 : brian.wyld@eloquant.com; Sarvi Shanmugham Cc : Eric Burger; speechsc@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Protocol proposal for SPEECHSC Brian, Here is the updated protocol comparison document with my updates = to the SIP section. Session control and resource control sections have = been updated as per last conference call. Let me know if any changes are needed. -Rajiv -----Original Message----- From: Brian Wyld [mailto:brian.wyld@eloquant.com] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:58 AM To: Sarvi Shanmugham Cc: Eric Burger; speechsc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Protocol proposal for SPEECHSC Hi Sarvi, No, I think the MRCP section is ok. Eric, I have no other updates yet for the protocol comparison = document.... Please note I am on holiday (real holiday, no computers) 28th = June until 15th July so won't be able to do any updates after 28th June. And finally, I'm afraid I won't be at IETF Vienna (budget, time = constraints). I hope you manage to get enough folk to make progress on = Sarvi's proposal.... Brian -----Message d'origine----- De : Sarvi Shanmugham [mailto:sarvi@cisco.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : Wednesday, June 11, 2003 00:12 =C3=80 : brian.wyld@eloquant.com Cc : Eric Burger; speechsc@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Speechsc] Protocol proposal for SPEECHSC Hi Brian, Does my section need updation(MRCP evalutation), = if so let me know and I will get back o you with the edits by the end of = next week. Sarvi Brian Wyld wrote: Ok, if I have time I will munge something thru a web services toolset = and produce an alternative proposal based on WS..... Then again, maybe not. To be frank, if you all want SIP, and I don't see many other viewpoints here, then I'll go with your experience. As long as we can model all the different session viewpoints (as already discussed here) that are needed = for usage of the resources then that's fine with me. (pointers to a good = open source java SIP stack gratefully received....) So, is anyone going to update their sections for the protocol comparison document before the 30th June or not? Brian (another hapless victem crushed by the SIP juggernaught) [Brian Wyld] [brian.wyld@eloquant.com] [Directeur General R&D] [Eloquant SA] [+33 476 77 46 92] [www.eloquant.com] [advanced solutions for telecoms and IT services] -----Message d'origine----- De : Eric Burger [mailto:eburger@snowshore.com] Envoy=C3=A9 : Tuesday, June 10, 2003 21:30 =C3=80 : brian.wyld@eloquant.com; speechsc@ietf.org Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Protocol proposal for SPEECHSC -----Original Message----- From: Brian Wyld [mailto:brian.wyld@eloquant.com] Sent: Tue, June 10, 2003 12:16 PM [snip] Sorry, but I still think that it's easier to specify the media setup specifically (maybe by cut-n-paste from RTSP) rather than suck in the entire SIP protocol. I would be very hesitant to create yet another "looks like SIP/RTSP, smells like SIP/RTSP, operates like SIP/RTSP, but has a different life and future than SIP/RTSP." I'd much rather leverage the 974 engineer years of work over the last 6 years put in to SIP than spend 3 engineer years explaining what is the same and different in a new protocol. Moreover, I would not want to find myself wishing I had 500 engineer years of resources to catch up when something useful gets introduced into SIP/RTSP that I might want. SIP is actually pretty good when dealing with small, embedded implementations. Most everything is an extension ("Accept/Allow"). You don't even need the list of extensions to say, "I don't know what you are talking about." Thus an SPEECHSC-only implementation can be pretty light. It is what we do in the media server world, for example. Maybe we should instead specify the use of RTSP as the media setup agent, as most folks with MRCP experience will have such an implementation already and it is known to serve the needs of mrcp...... I can go either way. At this point one could submit a RTSP-based SPEECHSC protocol proposal, similar to Sarvi's. Alternately, one could submit a "these are the reasons RTSP works/interoperates/easier-to-implement than SIP" draft. Do be aware that you have until 0900 USA-ET to submit a -00 draft. A+ Brian PS> I note that to achieve an operation MRCP server today, it is neccessary to implement very little of RTSP and none of the media state machinary (no play, record etc). In fact, only SETUP and TEARDOWN are really required, and the 'tunnel message' ANNOUNCE...... My point above, exactly... _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc =20 ------=_NextPart_001_02BA_01C34AD6.A5021620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Hi=20 Rajiv,
 
In=20 fact this was a deliberate edit, as I had thought that we had decided = that SIP=20 was primarily a session control protocol and not a resource control = protocol=20 -> hence the resource control section was just "need to add a = message =20 to do X Y Z" and hence not helpful.
 
Given=20 the direction we're heading here with Sarvi's latest submission, I think = the doc=20 doesn't really need this part?
 
Brian
 

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Rajiv = Dharmadhikari=20 [mailto:rajivdh@genesyslab.com]
Envoy=C3=A9 : Saturday, = June 28,=20 2003 02:46
=C3=80 : brian.wyld@eloquant.com; Sarvi=20 Shanmugham
Cc : Eric Burger;=20 speechsc@ietf.org
Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Protocol = proposal for=20 SPEECHSC

Brian,
 
Resource control section on SIP is missing in this version. I = provided my=20 updates last week. I hope you get chance to include that in the final=20 version.
 
Thanks,
 
-Rajiv
-----Original Message-----
From: = Brian Wyld=20 [mailto:brian.wyld@eloquant.com]
Sent: Fri 6/27/2003 2:17 = PM=20
To: Rajiv Dharmadhikari; Sarvi Shanmugham
Cc: = Eric=20 Burger; speechsc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Speechsc] = Protocol=20 proposal for SPEECHSC

Hi=20 all,
 
Attached you have an updated draft that I propose to submit = as 02 for=20 the next IETF. Essentially its the re-worked doc, with a very short=20 conclusion.....
 
Major missing part is the web services vs classic session = control=20 section we agreed to add in the last conf = call.....
 
Brian
 

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Rajiv = Dharmadhikari=20 [mailto:rajivdh@genesyslab.com]
Envoy=C3=A9 : = Friday, June 20,=20 2003 03:23
=C3=80 : brian.wyld@eloquant.com; Sarvi=20 Shanmugham
Cc : Eric Burger;=20 speechsc@ietf.org
Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Protocol = proposal=20 for SPEECHSC

Brian,
 
Here is the updated protocol comparison = document=20 with my updates to the SIP section. Session control and resource = control=20 sections have been updated as per last conference=20 call.
 
Let me know if any changes are=20 needed.
 
-Rajiv
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Wyld=20 [mailto:brian.wyld@eloquant.com]
Sent: Thursday, June = 19, 2003=20 1:58 AM
To: Sarvi Shanmugham
Cc: Eric = Burger;=20 speechsc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Protocol = proposal=20 for SPEECHSC

Hi Sarvi,
 
No, I think the MRCP section = is ok.
 
Eric, I have no other updates yet for the protocol = comparison=20 document....
 
Please note I am on holiday (real holiday, no = computers)=20 28th June until 15th July so won't be able to do any updates after 28th=20 June.
 
And finally, I'm afraid I won't be at IETF Vienna = (budget, time=20 constraints). I hope you manage to get enough folk to make = progress on=20 Sarvi's proposal....
 
Brian
 

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Sarvi = Shanmugham = [mailto:sarvi@cisco.com]
Envoy=C3=A9 : Wednesday,=20 June 11, 2003 00:12
=C3=80 :=20 brian.wyld@eloquant.com
Cc : Eric Burger;=20 speechsc@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [Speechsc] = Protocol=20 proposal for SPEECHSC

Hi Brian,
  =  =20         Does my section need updation(MRCP = evalutation), if so let me know and I will get back o you with = the=20 edits by the end of next week.

Sarvi

Brian Wyld=20 wrote:
Ok, if I have time I will munge something =
thru a web services toolset and
produce an alternative proposal based on WS.....

Then again, maybe not.

To be frank, if you all want SIP, and I don't see many other viewpoints
here, then I'll go with your experience. As long as we can model all the
different session viewpoints (as already discussed here) that are needed =
for
usage of the resources then that's fine with me. (pointers to a good =
open
source java SIP stack gratefully received....)

So, is anyone going to update their sections for the protocol comparison
document before the 30th June or not?

Brian (another hapless victem crushed by the SIP juggernaught)

[Brian Wyld] [brian.wyld@eloquant.com]
[Directeur General R&D]
[Eloquant SA] [+33 476 77 46 92] [www.eloquant.com]
[advanced solutions for telecoms and IT services]

  
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Eric Burger [mailto:eburger@snowshore.com]
Envoy=C3=A9 : Tuesday, June 10, 2003 21:30
=C3=80 : brian.wyld@eloquant.com; speechsc@ietf.org
Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Protocol proposal for SPEECHSC


    
-----Original Message----- =
From: Brian Wyld
      
[mailto:brian.wyld@eloquant.com]
    
Sent: Tue, June 10, 2003 =
12:16 PM
      
[snip]

    
Sorry, but I still think =
that it's easier to specify the media setup
specifically (maybe by cut-n-paste from RTSP) rather than
suck in the entire
SIP protocol.
      
I would be very hesitant to create yet =
another "looks like
SIP/RTSP, smells like SIP/RTSP, operates like SIP/RTSP, but has a
different life and future than SIP/RTSP."

I'd much rather leverage the 974 engineer years of work over the
last 6 years put in to SIP than spend 3 engineer years explaining
what is the same and different in a new protocol.  Moreover, I
would not want to find myself wishing I had 500 engineer years of
resources to catch up when something useful gets introduced into
SIP/RTSP that I might want.

SIP is actually pretty good when dealing with small, embedded
implementations.  Most everything is an extension
("Accept/Allow").  You don't even need the list of extensions to
say, "I don't know what you are talking about."  Thus an
SPEECHSC-only implementation can be pretty light.  It is what we
do in the media server world, for example.

    
Maybe we should instead =
specify the use of RTSP as the media
setup agent, as
most folks with MRCP experience will have such an
implementation already and
it is known to serve the needs of mrcp......
      
I can go either way.  At this point one =
could submit a RTSP-based
SPEECHSC protocol proposal, similar to Sarvi's.  Alternately, one
could submit a "these are the reasons RTSP
works/interoperates/easier-to-implement than SIP" draft.

Do be aware that you have until 0900 USA-ET to submit a -00 draft.

    
A+

Brian

PS> I note that to achieve an operation MRCP server today, it
is neccessary
to implement very little of RTSP and none of the media state
machinary (no
play, record etc). In fact, only SETUP and TEARDOWN are
really required, and
the 'tunnel message' ANNOUNCE......
      
My point above, exactly...


    =

_______________________________________________
Speechsc mailing list
Speechsc@ietf.org
https://www1.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc

  =

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Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cial-0005W0-1e for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:28:55 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6G9StuE021194 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:28:55 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ciak-0005Vl-Tf for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:28:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA22904 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ciah-00057t-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:28:51 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ciab-00057L-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:28:45 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ciYu-0005Nr-Re; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:27:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19ciYH-0005NJ-5U for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:26:21 -0400 Received: from webshield.office.snowshore.com (goalie.snowshore.com [216.57.133.4]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA22827; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 1857; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:25:08 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:20:48 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D4F6575@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: More on text conferencing at ietf57 Thread-Index: AcNGX9ut7y3hXc/SQhSdUK9gMnijjwFDuNhQ From: "Eric Burger" To: "IETF SPEECHSC (E-mail)" , "IETF LEMONADE (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Speechsc] FW: More on text conferencing at ietf57 Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is an alternate interface to Jabber. -----Original Message----- From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] Sent: Wed, July 09, 2003 5:18 PM To: wgchairs@ietf.org Cc: 'Jiri Kuthan' Subject: More on text conferencing at ietf57 As usual, Jiri Kuthan and the team at iptel.org are providing SIMPLE = support for text messaging at IETF 57. There is a sip2jabber service that connects SIP users to jabber chat = rooms. We've been using it for the last several meetings. More information can = be found at: http://www.iptel.org/ietf57/ _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 16 05:30:32 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23059 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cibv-0005db-6X for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:30:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6G9U7TM021665 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:30:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cibv-0005dM-2B for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:30:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA23050 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cibr-0005Ad-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:30:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cibm-0005Aa-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:29:58 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cibo-0005bD-Lm; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:30:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cibC-0005aG-CE for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:29:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA22969 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cib8-0005AL-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:29:18 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19ciax-00057e-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:29:08 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 5540; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:27:57 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 05:28:25 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D4F6587@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: Info for today's Meeting Thread-Index: AcNLfJcj0BzbYKyKQGm2gm0IhegT1w== From: "Eric Burger" To: "IETF SPEECHSC (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Speechsc] Info for today's Meeting Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Slides are at the speechsc supplemental web site: http://flyingfox.snowshore.com/i-d/speechsc/ The chair's slides have Jabber information for text messaging and remote = access. The meeting is at 3pm CET, 9am ET, 6am PT (sorry, Sarvi). _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 16 10:33:36 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03641 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cnLC-0006cB-9E for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:33:11 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6GEXAkJ025423 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:33:10 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cnLC-0006by-6E for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:33:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03578 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cnL9-0007mX-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:33:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cnL3-0007mU-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:33:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cnL2-0006an-PR; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:33:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cnKC-0006Wb-5K for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:32:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA03412 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cnK9-0007kX-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:32:05 -0400 Received: from mtl-mx1.nuance.com ([66.46.69.19]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19cnJo-0007jl-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:31:44 -0400 Received: from mpb1exbr01.nuance.com (mpb1exbr01.nuance.com [10.0.0.43]) by mtl-mx1.nuance.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h6GETRL14572; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mpb1exch02.nuance.com ([10.0.0.56]) by mpb1exbr01.nuance.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:28:50 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-speechsc-reqts-04.txt Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 07:28:49 -0700 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Speechsc] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-speechsc-reqts-04.txt Thread-Index: AcMxzQGOSXjk+4sWRUqQXAJi8nWoSwZ0/WqA From: "Daniel Burnett" To: "Guido Gybels" , Cc: "James Hamlin" , "Mike Spanner" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jul 2003 14:28:50.0241 (UTC) FILETIME=[932DC310:01C34BA6] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guido, Maybe I don't understand this completely, but are you suggesting that an = application using SPEECHSC would be acceptable if the organization = deploying it also had a non-speech equivalent but not otherwise? = Although most organizations deploying speech already have web = (graphical) access, a company focused on telephony-only access as their = business might find this requirement overly restrictive. This is not a protocol issue, but a protocol use issue. Does it really = belong in the definition of the protocol? -- Dan Burnett Nuance Communications > -----Original Message----- > From: Guido Gybels [mailto:Guido.Gybels@rnid.org.uk] > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 5:35 AM > To: speechsc@ietf.org > Cc: James Hamlin; Mike Spanner; A.vWijk@viataal.nl > Subject: [Speechsc] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-speechsc-reqts-04.txt >=20 >=20 > All, >=20 > < Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the=20 > Speech Services Control Working Group of the IETF.>> >=20 > <> >=20 > Based on the previous discussions, can I suggest we replace=20 > 3.9 with the following: >=20 > "3.9 Users with disabilities >=20 > The SPEECHSC framework must have sufficient capabilities to=20 > address the critical needs of people with disabilities. In=20 > particular, the set of requirements set forth in RFC3351 [4]=20 > MUST be taken into account by the framework. It is also=20 > important that implementers of SPEECHSC clients and servers=20 > be cognizant that some interaction modalities of SPEECHSC may=20 > be inconvenient, or simply inappropriate for disabled users.=20 > Hearing-impaired individuals may find TTS of limited utility.=20 > Speech-impaired users may be unable to make use of ASR or=20 > SI/SV capabilities. Therefore, systems employing SPEECHSC=20 > MUST provide alternative interaction modes or avoid the use=20 > of speech processing entirely." >=20 > And some spelling issues: >=20 > Page 3, justbefore 2.1: replace "decompostion" with "decomposition" > Page 14, 9.3, replace "vulnerabilties" with "vulnerabilities"=20 >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Guido >=20 >=20 >=20 > Guido Gybels > Director of New Technologies >=20 > RNID, 19-23 Featherstone Street > London EC1Y 8SL, UK > Tel +44(0)20-7294 3713 > Fax +44(0)20-7296 8069 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ************************************************************** > ********** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential > and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to > whom they are addressed. Any views or opinions expressed > are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > RNID policy. >=20 > If you are not the intended recipient you are advised that any > use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this > email is strictly prohibited. >=20 > If you have received this email in error please notify the RNID > Helpdesk by telephone on: +44 (0) 207 296 8282. >=20 > The Royal National Institute for Deaf People =20 > Registered Office 19-23 Featherstone Street=20 > London EC1Y 8SL No. 454169 (England) > Registered Charity No. 207720 > ************************************************************** > ********** >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >=20 _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 16 14:31:01 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11599 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cr2x-0004Kl-GA for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:30:36 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6GIUZaQ016657 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:30:35 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cr2x-0004Ka-D8 for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:30:35 -0400 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11584 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cr2P-0004HW-Ud; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:30:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19cnaL-0007dX-0p for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:48:49 -0400 Received: from mhs02lhr.blackberry.net (pxf01lhr.egham.rim.net [193.109.81.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA04627 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 10:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailrouter01.bwc.prod.uk.blackberry (mailrouter01.bwc.prod.uk.blackberry [172.16.80.216]) by mhs02lhr.blackberry.net (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h6GEl7G26087; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:47:07 GMT Received: from imap01.eu.blackberry.net (imap01.eu.blackberry.net [172.16.80.224]) by mailrouter01.bwc.prod.uk.blackberry (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6GEl7St007949; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:47:07 GMT Received: from imap01.eu.blackberry.net (localhost.eu.blackberry.net [127.0.0.1]) by imap01.eu.blackberry.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.2-CR) with ESMTP id ABA09691; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:47:07 GMT Received: from 81.160.243.24 by imap01.eu.blackberry.net (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.2-CR) with HTTPS/1.1; Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:47:07 +0100 Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:47:07 +0100 From: Guido Gybels Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-speechsc-reqts-04.txt To: Daniel Burnett Cc: speechsc@ietf.org, James Hamlin, Mike Spanner, A.vWijk@viataal.nl Reply-To: guido.gybels@rnid.org.uk X-Mailer: Webmail Mirapoint Direct 3.3.2-CR MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, <> First of all, the wording I suggested was quite mildly formulated. I'm not going to get into a lengthy debate here, but I respectfully point to both the ADA in the US and the DDA in the UK: if you, as a service provider, create services/products, you have a *legal* obligation to make reasonable adjustment to make that accessible to people with disabilities. The fact that few people in the industry are aware of this obligation doesn't change it. <> There have been some questions about this, and I'm open to options, but it seems to me that what we are saying here, i.e. that if you implement this protocol to deliver services to people, you are well advised to take into consideration the needs of people with disabilities does not look out of scope to me. If you have a better solution for where to put this, by all means do suggest it. I sure hope the suggestion is not to just ignore people with disabilities. Guido Guido Gybels Director of New Technologies RNID, 19-23 Featherstone Street London EC1Y 8SL, UK Tel +44(0)20-7294 3713 Fax +44(0)20-7296 8069 _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 23 21:14:45 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA09375 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fUgU-0001rE-LB for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:14:18 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6O1EIBf007136 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:14:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fUgU-0001r1-I2 for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:14:18 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA09368 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fUgS-0002AF-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:14:16 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fUgM-0002AB-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:14:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fUgD-0001qE-7J; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:14:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fTvR-0008Gq-MB for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:25:41 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA08545 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fTvP-0001xt-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:25:39 -0400 Received: from mail4.dynamicsoft.com ([63.110.3.100]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fTvE-0001x5-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:25:28 -0400 Received: from DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com (dyn-tx-exch-001 [63.110.3.8]) by mail4.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6O0OKiJ018143 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:24:19 -0500 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3E86243@dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Adam Roach To: "'speechsc@ietf.org'" Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 19:24:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Speechsc] Message Framing Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , At the meeting last week, I attempted to raise an issue of message framing. I believe that my explanation may have been somewhat unclear, so I will attempt to raise it here. As I do not subscribe to the speechsc mailing list, please try to keep my address in the recipients list for any follow-ups on this topic. To examine this issue, I will consider the following example messages from draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00: 1) Message with a body SPEAK 543257 SPEECHSC/1.0 Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 Voice-gender: neutral Voice-category: teenager Prosody-volume: medium Content-Type: application/synthesis+ssml Content-Length: 104 You have 4 new messages. The first is from Stephanie Williams and arrived at 3:45pm. The subject is ski trip 2) Message without a body SPEAK-COMPLETE 543257 COMPLETE SPEECHSC/1.0 Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 The first issue to note is the difference in handling between messages with and those without bodies. Messages with bodies are framed by finding a "Content-Length" header, and counting that many bytes after a blank line is encountered. Messages without bodies are simply terminated with a blank line. Note that even in protocols that use a header to specify body length (e.g. HTTP and SIP), this is not normal behavior. (SIP and HTTP take the absence of a "Content-Length" header to mean, "This message continues until the TCP connection is torn down".) The second, and larger, issue pertains to the use of a variable position header for framing purposes at all. Our experience with SIP has shown that this type of scheme makes a clean separation of parsing and framing to be difficult. Most implementations are forced to perform a rudimentary first pass of parsing to determine where a message ends, and then re-parsing of the message at a higher level once it has been read completely from the wire. This causes many implementations to be less efficient than they otherwise could be. Recognizing this situation, the next opportunity the SIP community had to design a protocol, we decided to use a more straightforward framing model. If you examine the way that MSRP works (see draft-ietf-simple-message-sessions-01), it encodes message size as part of the leader line. Specifically, implementations can always look for a number starting at the 6th character of an MSRP message to determine the length of the rest of the message. For example: MSRP 57 SEND TR-ID: 456 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, Alice! I'm Bob! I encourage SPEECHSC to learn from the experiences of the SIP community and adopt a similar scheme. /a _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 24 00:56:35 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13243 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fY9B-0001P0-F8 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6O4u9jP005386 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:09 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fY9B-0001On-C0 for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:09 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13227 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fY98-0003LH-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fY93-0003LE-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fY94-0001O7-80; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:56:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fY8Y-0001Nt-Mp for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:55:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13216 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fY8V-0003L5-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:55:28 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.71] helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fY8L-0003Km-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 00:55:17 -0400 Received: from cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2003 21:55:20 -0700 Received: from mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com [171.71.163.17]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h6O4s2uG008847; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn4-956.cisco.com [10.21.83.187]) by mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AJY72591; Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F1F6668.6060708@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:54:00 -0700 From: Sarvi Shanmugham Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adam Roach CC: "'speechsc@ietf.org'" Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Message Framing References: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3E86243@dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sounds reasonable. I will make the necessary changes, if no has any objections. Sarvi Adam Roach wrote: >At the meeting last week, I attempted to raise an issue >of message framing. I believe that my explanation may >have been somewhat unclear, so I will attempt to raise >it here. > >As I do not subscribe to the speechsc mailing list, >please try to keep my address in the recipients list for >any follow-ups on this topic. > >To examine this issue, I will consider the following >example messages from draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00: > >1) Message with a body > > SPEAK 543257 SPEECHSC/1.0 > Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 > Voice-gender: neutral > Voice-category: teenager > Prosody-volume: medium > Content-Type: application/synthesis+ssml > Content-Length: 104 > > > > > You have 4 new messages. > The first is from type="name">Stephanie Williams > and arrived at > 3:45pm. > The subject is rate="-20%">ski trip > > > >2) Message without a body > > SPEAK-COMPLETE 543257 COMPLETE SPEECHSC/1.0 > Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 > >The first issue to note is the difference in handling between >messages with and those without bodies. Messages with bodies >are framed by finding a "Content-Length" header, and counting >that many bytes after a blank line is encountered. Messages >without bodies are simply terminated with a blank line. Note >that even in protocols that use a header to specify body length >(e.g. HTTP and SIP), this is not normal behavior. (SIP and >HTTP take the absence of a "Content-Length" header to mean, >"This message continues until the TCP connection is torn down".) > >The second, and larger, issue pertains to the use of a variable >position header for framing purposes at all. Our experience with >SIP has shown that this type of scheme makes a clean separation >of parsing and framing to be difficult. Most implementations are >forced to perform a rudimentary first pass of parsing to determine >where a message ends, and then re-parsing of the message at a >higher level once it has been read completely from the wire. >This causes many implementations to be less efficient than they >otherwise could be. > >Recognizing this situation, the next opportunity the SIP >community had to design a protocol, we decided to use a >more straightforward framing model. If you examine the >way that MSRP works (see draft-ietf-simple-message-sessions-01), >it encodes message size as part of the leader line. >Specifically, implementations can always look for a number >starting at the 6th character of an MSRP message to determine >the length of the rest of the message. For example: > > MSRP 57 SEND > TR-ID: 456 > Content-Type: text/plain > > Hi, Alice! I'm Bob! > >I encourage SPEECHSC to learn from the experiences of the SIP >community and adopt a similar scheme. > >/a > >_______________________________________________ >Speechsc mailing list >Speechsc@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > > _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 24 16:38:37 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29400 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fmqp-0003ZA-I8 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:11 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6OKcB9l013704 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:11 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fmqp-0003Yx-FH for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:11 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29322 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fmqn-0001zy-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:09 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fmqh-0001zv-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fmqf-0003WH-KZ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:38:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fmqE-0003QJ-SG for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:37:34 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29268 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fmqC-0001zc-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:37:32 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fmq2-0001z1-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:37:22 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 26094; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:35:39 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Message Framing Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:36:24 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D4F65F3@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: [Speechsc] Message Framing Thread-Index: AcNRn+aobYxnHIYESsqUd+52Ak7b6gAYpfeQ From: "Eric Burger" To: "Adam Roach" Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would there ever be a situation where the client does not know = beforehand how long the message would be? E.g., arbitrary = text-to-speech? In this case, the burden of reading and writing the = message twice and buffering gets put on the client, as opposed to the = server reading the message twice. If there is not a case for an unbounded request, or it is very unlikely, = I would put the burden on the client. > -----Original Message----- > From: Sarvi Shanmugham [mailto:sarvi@cisco.com] > Sent: Thu, July 24, 2003 12:54 AM > To: Adam Roach > Cc: 'speechsc@ietf.org' > Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Message Framing >=20 >=20 > sounds reasonable. > I will make the necessary changes, if no has any objections. >=20 > Sarvi >=20 > Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > >At the meeting last week, I attempted to raise an issue > >of message framing. I believe that my explanation may > >have been somewhat unclear, so I will attempt to raise > >it here. > > > >As I do not subscribe to the speechsc mailing list, > >please try to keep my address in the recipients list for > >any follow-ups on this topic. > > > >To examine this issue, I will consider the following > >example messages from draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00: > > > >1) Message with a body > > > > SPEAK 543257 SPEECHSC/1.0=20 > > Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802=20 > > Voice-gender: neutral=20 > > Voice-category: teenager=20 > > Prosody-volume: medium=20 > > Content-Type: application/synthesis+ssml=20 > > Content-Length: 104=20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > =20 > > You have 4 new messages.=20 > > The first is from > type=3D"name">Stephanie Williams=20 > > and arrived at =20 > > 3:45pm.=20 > > The subject is > rate=3D"-20%">ski trip=20 > > =20 > > =20 > > > >2) Message without a body > > > > SPEAK-COMPLETE 543257 COMPLETE SPEECHSC/1.0=20 > > Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802=20 > > > >The first issue to note is the difference in handling between > >messages with and those without bodies. Messages with bodies > >are framed by finding a "Content-Length" header, and counting > >that many bytes after a blank line is encountered. Messages > >without bodies are simply terminated with a blank line. Note > >that even in protocols that use a header to specify body length > >(e.g. HTTP and SIP), this is not normal behavior. (SIP and > >HTTP take the absence of a "Content-Length" header to mean, > >"This message continues until the TCP connection is torn down".) > > > >The second, and larger, issue pertains to the use of a variable > >position header for framing purposes at all. Our experience with > >SIP has shown that this type of scheme makes a clean separation > >of parsing and framing to be difficult. Most implementations are > >forced to perform a rudimentary first pass of parsing to determine > >where a message ends, and then re-parsing of the message at a > >higher level once it has been read completely from the wire. > >This causes many implementations to be less efficient than they > >otherwise could be. > > > >Recognizing this situation, the next opportunity the SIP > >community had to design a protocol, we decided to use a > >more straightforward framing model. If you examine the > >way that MSRP works (see draft-ietf-simple-message-sessions-01), > >it encodes message size as part of the leader line. > >Specifically, implementations can always look for a number > >starting at the 6th character of an MSRP message to determine > >the length of the rest of the message. For example: > > > > MSRP 57 SEND > > TR-ID: 456 > > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > Hi, Alice! I'm Bob! > > > >I encourage SPEECHSC to learn from the experiences of the SIP > >community and adopt a similar scheme. > > > >/a > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Speechsc mailing list > >Speechsc@ietf.org > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > > > =20 > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Thu Jul 24 19:24:33 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05810 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fpRQ-0004HY-MV for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:24:08 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6ONO86K016454 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:24:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fpRQ-0004HJ-JA for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:24:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05804 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fpRO-00039W-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:24:06 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fpRJ-00039T-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:24:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fpRJ-0004GS-ES; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 19:24:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19fn2A-0004kY-3K for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:49:54 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA29951 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fn27-00029D-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:49:51 -0400 Received: from mail4.dynamicsoft.com ([63.110.3.100]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19fn1x-00028y-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:49:41 -0400 Received: from DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com (dyn-tx-exch-001 [63.110.3.8]) by mail4.dynamicsoft.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h6OKn0iJ020484; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 16:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:48:58 -0500 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3E86257@dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Adam Roach To: "'Eric Burger'" , Adam Roach Cc: speechsc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Message Framing Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 15:48:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , I don't know offhand how likely the case you describe is for speechsc. I'll note that part of the conversations we had around MSRP included the case in which the size of messages are not necessarily known when the client first starts sending them. After much discussion, we concluded that it was something we could ignore rather safely (and maybe address at some point in the future by dividing messages up using the message/partial mime type). In any case, if you determine that this is a useful case, you might consider using a string of unique (or at least unlikely) characters to mark the end of a message, in the same way the MIME delimits multipart bodies. I will point out that the "Content-Length" header suffers from the same restriction that you indicate (you can't send bodies of unknown size), so going to the framing scheme that I propose doesn't make the protocol any worse than what is currently written up in the internet-draft. /a > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburger@snowshore.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 15:36 > To: Adam Roach > Cc: speechsc@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Message Framing > > > Would there ever be a situation where the client does not > know beforehand how long the message would be? E.g., > arbitrary text-to-speech? In this case, the burden of > reading and writing the message twice and buffering gets put > on the client, as opposed to the server reading the message twice. > > If there is not a case for an unbounded request, or it is > very unlikely, I would put the burden on the client. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sarvi Shanmugham [mailto:sarvi@cisco.com] > > Sent: Thu, July 24, 2003 12:54 AM > > To: Adam Roach > > Cc: 'speechsc@ietf.org' > > Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Message Framing > > > > > > sounds reasonable. > > I will make the necessary changes, if no has any objections. > > > > Sarvi > > > > Adam Roach wrote: > > > > >At the meeting last week, I attempted to raise an issue > > >of message framing. I believe that my explanation may > > >have been somewhat unclear, so I will attempt to raise > > >it here. > > > > > >As I do not subscribe to the speechsc mailing list, > > >please try to keep my address in the recipients list for > > >any follow-ups on this topic. > > > > > >To examine this issue, I will consider the following > > >example messages from draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00: > > > > > >1) Message with a body > > > > > > SPEAK 543257 SPEECHSC/1.0 > > > Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 > > > Voice-gender: neutral > > > Voice-category: teenager > > > Prosody-volume: medium > > > Content-Type: application/synthesis+ssml > > > Content-Length: 104 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have 4 new messages. > > > The first is from > > type="name">Stephanie Williams > > > and arrived at > > > 3:45pm. > > > The subject is > > rate="-20%">ski trip > > > > > > > > > > > >2) Message without a body > > > > > > SPEAK-COMPLETE 543257 COMPLETE SPEECHSC/1.0 > > > Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 > > > > > >The first issue to note is the difference in handling between > > >messages with and those without bodies. Messages with bodies > > >are framed by finding a "Content-Length" header, and counting > > >that many bytes after a blank line is encountered. Messages > > >without bodies are simply terminated with a blank line. Note > > >that even in protocols that use a header to specify body length > > >(e.g. HTTP and SIP), this is not normal behavior. (SIP and > > >HTTP take the absence of a "Content-Length" header to mean, > > >"This message continues until the TCP connection is torn down".) > > > > > >The second, and larger, issue pertains to the use of a variable > > >position header for framing purposes at all. Our experience with > > >SIP has shown that this type of scheme makes a clean separation > > >of parsing and framing to be difficult. Most implementations are > > >forced to perform a rudimentary first pass of parsing to determine > > >where a message ends, and then re-parsing of the message at a > > >higher level once it has been read completely from the wire. > > >This causes many implementations to be less efficient than they > > >otherwise could be. > > > > > >Recognizing this situation, the next opportunity the SIP > > >community had to design a protocol, we decided to use a > > >more straightforward framing model. If you examine the > > >way that MSRP works (see draft-ietf-simple-message-sessions-01), > > >it encodes message size as part of the leader line. > > >Specifically, implementations can always look for a number > > >starting at the 6th character of an MSRP message to determine > > >the length of the rest of the message. For example: > > > > > > MSRP 57 SEND > > > TR-ID: 456 > > > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > > > Hi, Alice! I'm Bob! > > > > > >I encourage SPEECHSC to learn from the experiences of the SIP > > >community and adopt a similar scheme. > > > > > >/a > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Speechsc mailing list > > >Speechsc@ietf.org > > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speechsc mailing list > > Speechsc@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > > > > _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jul 25 10:09:43 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA06024 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g3G2-0005HI-Ay for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:09:18 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6PE9IF5020283 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:09:18 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g3G1-0005H4-HP for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:09:17 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05992 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:09:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g3Fz-0000W8-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:09:15 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g3Ft-0000Vz-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:09:09 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g3Fl-0005FA-0e; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:09:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g3F6-0005C1-4w for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:08:20 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05856; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g3Ey-0000VH-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:08:12 -0400 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g3En-0000Ud-00; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:08:01 -0400 Received: from [10.32.254.186] (stealth-10-32-254-186.cisco.com [10.32.254.186]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h6PE73pp010044; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:07:02 -0400 From: David Oran To: minutes@ietf.org cc: speechsc@ietf.org Message-ID: <77722437.1059127622@[10.32.254.186]> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==========77732567==========" Subject: [Speechsc] Minutes of SPEECHSC WG Meeting at Vienna IETF Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --==========77732567========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks to Edwin Aoki for a really excellent job of note taking. --------------------------------------------------------------------- speechsc working group minutes, Wed July 16 reported by Edwin Aoki Eric Burger and David Oran chair Administrivia and Agenda Bashing -------------------------------- Proposed Agenda: Agenda Bashing 5 min Requirement Status 4 min Protocol Proposal 90 min Protocol Analysis 20 min Wrap up and next steps There were no objections to the agenda as proposed. Requirements Status - Dave Oran ------------------------------- The requirements document was in the IESG for some time, and the majority of comments were integrated into draft-ietf-speechsc-reqts-04. The security ADs asked for a couple minor changes, which will be included in an -05 draft, including a reference to the risks of use of biometrics, including speaker identification and speaker verification. After those changes, the draft will go to the RFC editor. Guido from the RNID had requested some changes in the wording of section 3.9. Dave indicated that he'd thought that those changes were already incorporated in the -04 draft; Guido thought his comments were for -04. Guido will verify that his comments are still appropriate for the -04 draft. speechsc Protocol Proposal - Sarvi Shanmugham (via audio link) -------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00.txt The protocol proposal is now in draft form, based on the MRCP proposal, also now in draft form. However, there was some issues that came up relating to MRCP's tunneling capability. The proposal proposes a SIP-based framework as a control channel to initiate sessions between client and server. The control channel will run over TCP or SCTP and will not use an unreliable protocol such as UDP. This proposal doesn't address speaker identification or speaker verification. Advantages: * The speechsc exchange is simple because it need not work around the unreliability of the protocol * Allows for TCP/SCTP connection sharing, unlike RTSP, which requires the client to open a separate connection to the server for each session. * Leverages MRCP - the state machine and flow are the same as MRCP, and are therefore well-understood Issues: Most of the issues that have been raised on the list have been noted and simply need to be incorporated into the next set of drafts. Sarvi presented a slide which listed the known issues, and the remainder of the discussion focused around these issues (and others that would come in in the course of the discussion). The chairs took a quick show of hands, which revealed that a few people have read the most recent draft. * Issue 1: Define SI and SV The author has received some responses from a few people who might be interested in working on the SI and SV problem, but if there are additional people who are interested, they should contact the WG chairs. Dan Burnett has volunteered. * Issue 2: Why use SIP (Bryan Wild and others) There was some discussion around the choice of SIP. Morna Hirsch asked the question (which Bryan Wild and others have asked on the list) why we wouldn't continue with the use of RTSP and extend that instead of going all the way to SIP? Sarvi explained that two issues that while RTSP was being used, speechsc was primarily using MRCP as a TCP pipe and so therefore it worked. The desire was to move the messages to the top layer without requiring tunneling, and the separation of the control channel provided a clean way to do this. Additionally, going to SIP allowed for reuse of the TCP pipe between client and server. In getting some more detail around the use of SIP for speechsc, Colin asked whether the proposal was a subset of SIP, or whether there would be parts of SIP that people would expect to work, that wouldn't when used in a speechsc context. Sarvi explained that everything one would expect for a standard RFC 3261-compliant UA would work; it is not a subset of SIP and there's no expectation that a profile would be needed. The chairs took a hum on the question: "Is there consensus on using SIP as the session initiation protocol for speechsc?" The hum indicated rough consensus for the statement; there was no opposition. The chairs then took a hum on the question of whether it would be appropriate to adopt this draft as a WG item. Again, there was no opposition, but only a light hum in favor. The chairs will take this question to the list. * Issue 3: Multiple resources of a given type Dan Burnett asked regarding section 3.2 for some more clarification on adding and removing resources. Is it possible to have, for example, multiple ASR resources and then to be able to drop just one? As long as there are only references to resource type and not to specific resources, it's unclear what would be dropped? There was some discussion around why one would want to have multiple resources - for example to have multiple recognizers in parallel, but the current draft does not consider having multiple resources on a single session. Further discussion was taken to the list. * Issue 4: Resource Tokens as strings The protocol currently defines resources by an integer number. In an XML format, it costs the same (in bytes) to use strings such as "SI", "SV", or even "ASR" or others. Colin and Eric independently asked the question of the extensibility of the namespace and whether strings could be used instead of numbers. Sarvi indicated that he was open to using strings, perhaps even URIs of the form channel ID@asr. There was some followup discussion on whether these strings would be arbitrary, negotiated strings, or fixed strings as in an IANA registry. The discussion seemed to focus around leaning towards specific strings by resource types. The chairs asked for a concrete proposal to be sent to the list (sarvi?) * Issue 5: Use of the m= line Neil Deason brought up the issue of how one would specify the choice of TCP or SCTP given the current specs. Two options were proposed. Proposal 1: One m= line, with a protocol ID of "speechsc" and where the MIME type is a resource ID Proposal 2: One m= line with the protocol ID being the actual protocol used (TCP or SCTP), MIME type of "application/speechsc" and additional attributes a=resource ID , a=channel ID There were no comments on this and further discussion was taken to the list. * Comment Adam Roach made the comment that having content-length headers in the middle of the data has proven difficult to implement efficiency in other WGs (like SIP). Subsequent work, for example in MSRP, has gone to more of a fixed-position framing for the ease of parsing. Various other options include include either an easy to parse byte count, or well-known leader text (a la MIME parts). This makes it easier to parse without having to pull in the entire message. Protocol Analysis Document - Eric Burger ---------------------------------------- The document is complete, though it still needs some more work, particularly cross-review. A show of hands showed that 3 or 4 people had read it. So now what? Does this document need to be published? Does it need to be kept alive for the duration of the protocol? etc. The AD felt that if it was interesting and/or worthwhile or could convey some of the rationale for using IETF-supported protocols rather than not, that it would be useful to document. There was some collective intuition that it would be good to ahve documented the reasons why the group moved in the direction that it did, particularly because the group has made a fairly significant change in direction. As of now, however, the document is not in a publishable state, and needs further work. Milestone Review - Eric Burger ------------------------------ The group is a little ahead of schedule on the milestones as far as draft submissions are concerned. The milestones will be updated coming out of the Vienna meeting. --==========77732567========== Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Speechsc notes" Return-Path: Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGD29607; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 04:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aol.net (171.71.177.238) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Jul 2003 04:25:44 -0700 Received: from sj-inbound-3.cisco.com (sj-inbound-3.cisco.com [128.107.250.144]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h6HBQ489027316 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 04:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from netscape.com (c3po.aoltw.net [64.236.137.25]) by sj-inbound-3.cisco.com (8.12.8p1/8.11.2) with ESMTP id h6HBPvxk027170 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 04:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dredd.mcom.com (dredd.nscp.aoltw.net [10.169.8.48]) by netscape.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id h6HBPeD18635 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 04:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aol.net ([10.178.176.61]) by dredd.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id HI62EQ00.34G; Thu, 17 Jul 2003 04:25:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3F1687B0.60901@aol.net> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 04:25:36 -0700 From: Edwin Aoki User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20021130 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: eburger@snowshore.com, oran@cisco.com Subject: Speechsc notes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="==========77739971==========" --==========77739971========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gentlemen, Attached are the notes I took at the speechsc meeting. Not having a lot of experience with the speechsc body of work in the past, I'd ask that you take a look and make sure to correct any of the names and other relevant facts before passing along. Let me know if you have any further questions or comments. Thanks, -Edwin --==========77739971========== Content-Type: text/plain; name="speechsc.txt"; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=522A6368 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit speechsc working group minutes, Wed July 16 reported by Edwin Aoki Eric Burger and David Oran chair Administrivia and Agenda Bashing -------------------------------- Proposed Agenda: Agenda Bashing 5 min Requirement Status 4 min Protocol Proposal 90 min Protocol Analysis 20 min Wrap up and next steps There were no objections to the agenda as proposed. Requirements Status - Dave Oran ------------------------------- The requirements document was in the IESG for some time, and the majority of comments were integrated into draft-ietf-speechsc-reqts-04. The security ADs asked for a couple minor changes, which will be included in an -05 draft, including a reference to the risks of use of biometrics, including speaker identification and speaker verification. After those changes, the draft will go to the RFC editor. Guido from the RNID had requested some changes in the wording of section 3.9. Dave indicated that he'd thought that those changes were already incorporated in the -04 draft; Guido thought his comments were for -04. Guido will verify that his comments are still appropriate for the -04 draft. speechsc Protocol Proposal - Sarvi Shanmugham (via audio link) -------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00.txt The protocol proposal is now in draft form, based on the MRCP proposal, also now in draft form. However, there was some issues that came up relating to MRCP's tunneling capability. The proposal proposes a SIP-based framework as a control channel to initiate sessions between client and server. The control channel will run over TCP or SCTP and will not use an unreliable protocol such as UDP. This proposal doesn't address speaker identification or speaker verification. Advantages: * The speechsc exchange is simple because it need not work around the unreliability of the protocol * Allows for TCP/SCTP connection sharing, unlike RTSP, which requires the client to open a separate connection to the server for each session. * Leverages MRCP - the state machine and flow are the same as MRCP, and are therefore well-understood Issues: Most of the issues that have been raised on the list have been noted and simply need to be incorporated into the next set of drafts. Sarvi presented a slide which listed the known issues, and the remainder of the discussion focused around these issues (and others that would come in in the course of the discussion). The chairs took a quick show of hands, which revealed that a few people have read the most recent draft. * Issue 1: Define SI and SV The author has received some responses from a few people who might be interested in working on the SI and SV problem, but if there are additional people who are interested, they should contact the WG chairs. Dan Burnett has volunteered. * Issue 2: Why use SIP (Bryan Wild and others) There was some discussion around the choice of SIP. Morna Hirsch asked the question (which Bryan Wild and others have asked on the list) why we wouldn't continue with the use of RTSP and extend that instead of going all the way to SIP? Sarvi explained that two issues that while RTSP was being used, speechsc was primarily using MRCP as a TCP pipe and so therefore it worked. The desire was to move the messages to the top layer without requiring tunneling, and the separation of the control channel provided a clean way to do this. Additionally, going to SIP allowed for reuse of the TCP pipe between client and server. In getting some more detail around the use of SIP for speechsc, Colin asked whether the proposal was a subset of SIP, or whether there would be parts of SIP that people would expect to work, that wouldn't when used in a speechsc context. Sarvi explained that everything one would expect for a standard RFC 3261-compliant UA would work; it is not a subset of SIP and there's no expectation that a profile would be needed. The chairs took a hum on the question: "Is there consensus on using SIP as the session initiation protocol for speechsc?" The hum indicated rough consensus for the statement; there was no opposition. The chairs then took a hum on the question of whether it would be appropriate to adopt this draft as a WG item. Again, there was no opposition, but only a light hum in favor. The chairs will take this question to the list. * Issue 3: Multiple resources of a given type Dan Burnett asked regarding section 3.2 for some more clarification on adding and removing resources. Is it possible to have, for example, multiple ASR resources and then to be able to drop just one? As long as there are only references to resource type and not to specific resources, it's unclear what would be dropped? There was some discussion around why one would want to have multiple resources - for example to have multiple recognizers in parallel, but the current draft does not consider having multiple resources on a single session. Further discussion was taken to the list. * Issue 4: Resource Tokens as strings The protocol currently defines resources by an integer number. In an XML format, it costs the same (in bytes) to use strings such as "SI", "SV", or even "ASR" or others. Colin and Eric independently asked the question of the extensibility of the namespace and whether strings could be used instead of numbers. Sarvi indicated that he was open to using strings, perhaps even URIs of the form channel ID@asr. There was some followup discussion on whether these strings would be arbitrary, negotiated strings, or fixed strings as in an IANA registry. The discussion seemed to focus around leaning towards specific strings by resource types. The chairs asked for a concrete proposal to be sent to the list (sarvi?) * Issue 5: Use of the m= line Neil Deason brought up the issue of how one would specify the choice of TCP or SCTP given the current specs. Two options were proposed. Proposal 1: One m= line, with a protocol ID of "speechsc" and where the MIME type is a resource ID Proposal 2: One m= line with the protocol ID being the actual protocol used (TCP or SCTP), MIME type of "application/speechsc" and additional attributes a=resource ID , a=channel ID There were no comments on this and further discussion was taken to the list. * Comment Adam Roach made the comment that having content-length headers in the middle of the data has proven difficult to implement efficiency in other WGs (like SIP). Subsequent work, for example in MSRP, has gone to more of a fixed-position framing for the ease of parsing. Various other options include include either an easy to parse byte count, or well-known leader text (a la MIME parts). This makes it easier to parse without having to pull in the entire message. Protocol Analysis Document - Eric Burger ---------------------------------------- The document is complete, though it still needs some more work, particularly cross-review. A show of hands showed that 3 or 4 people had read it. So now what? Does this document need to be published? Does it need to be kept alive for the duration of the protocol? etc. The AD felt that if it was interesting and/or worthwhile or could convey some of the rationale for using IETF-supported protocols rather than not, that it would be useful to document. There was some collective intuition that it would be good to ahve documented the reasons why the group moved in the direction that it did, particularly because the group has made a fairly significant change in direction. As of now, however, the document is not in a publishable state, and needs further work. Milestone Review - Eric Burger ------------------------------ The group is a little ahead of schedule on the milestones as far as draft submissions are concerned. The milestones will be updated coming out of the Vienna meeting. --==========77739971==========-- --==========77732567==========-- _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jul 25 13:05:39 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12587 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g60I-0007Qd-AQ for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:05:15 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6PH5ELg028540 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:05:14 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g60I-0007Q8-53 for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:05:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12552 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g60G-00020T-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:05:12 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g60F-00020O-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:05:11 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g606-0007LS-Hr; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:05:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g5za-0007Ji-Eh for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:04:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA12509 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g5zY-0001zO-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:04:28 -0400 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g5zX-0001zD-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:04:27 -0400 Received: from mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com [171.71.163.15]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h6PH3lpp003857; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.6] (sjc-vpn1-716.cisco.com [10.21.98.204]) by mira-sjc5-e.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AGK86861; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:03:45 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.1.1.2418 Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:03:45 -0700 Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Message Framing From: Cullen Jennings To: Adam Roach , Eric Burger CC: Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3E86257@dyn-tx-exch-001.dynamicsoft.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whatever you do, don't require both the content length approach and search for a terminating string - this brings you the worst of booth approaches. On 7/24/03 13:48, "Adam Roach" wrote: > I don't know offhand how likely the case you describe is > for speechsc. I'll note that part of the conversations we > had around MSRP included the case in which the size of > messages are not necessarily known when the client first > starts sending them. After much discussion, we concluded > that it was something we could ignore rather safely (and > maybe address at some point in the future by dividing > messages up using the message/partial mime type). > > In any case, if you determine that this is a useful case, > you might consider using a string of unique (or at least > unlikely) characters to mark the end of a message, in the > same way the MIME delimits multipart bodies. > > I will point out that the "Content-Length" header suffers > from the same restriction that you indicate (you can't send > bodies of unknown size), so going to the framing scheme > that I propose doesn't make the protocol any worse than > what is currently written up in the internet-draft. > > /a > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburger@snowshore.com] >> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 15:36 >> To: Adam Roach >> Cc: speechsc@ietf.org >> Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Message Framing >> >> >> Would there ever be a situation where the client does not >> know beforehand how long the message would be? E.g., >> arbitrary text-to-speech? In this case, the burden of >> reading and writing the message twice and buffering gets put >> on the client, as opposed to the server reading the message twice. >> >> If there is not a case for an unbounded request, or it is >> very unlikely, I would put the burden on the client. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sarvi Shanmugham [mailto:sarvi@cisco.com] >>> Sent: Thu, July 24, 2003 12:54 AM >>> To: Adam Roach >>> Cc: 'speechsc@ietf.org' >>> Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Message Framing >>> >>> >>> sounds reasonable. >>> I will make the necessary changes, if no has any objections. >>> >>> Sarvi >>> >>> Adam Roach wrote: >>> >>>> At the meeting last week, I attempted to raise an issue >>>> of message framing. I believe that my explanation may >>>> have been somewhat unclear, so I will attempt to raise >>>> it here. >>>> >>>> As I do not subscribe to the speechsc mailing list, >>>> please try to keep my address in the recipients list for >>>> any follow-ups on this topic. >>>> >>>> To examine this issue, I will consider the following >>>> example messages from draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00: >>>> >>>> 1) Message with a body >>>> >>>> SPEAK 543257 SPEECHSC/1.0 >>>> Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 >>>> Voice-gender: neutral >>>> Voice-category: teenager >>>> Prosody-volume: medium >>>> Content-Type: application/synthesis+ssml >>>> Content-Length: 104 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You have 4 new messages. >>>> The first is from >>> type="name">Stephanie Williams >>>> and arrived at >>>> 3:45pm. >>>> The subject is >>> rate="-20%">ski trip >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2) Message without a body >>>> >>>> SPEAK-COMPLETE 543257 COMPLETE SPEECHSC/1.0 >>>> Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 >>>> >>>> The first issue to note is the difference in handling between >>>> messages with and those without bodies. Messages with bodies >>>> are framed by finding a "Content-Length" header, and counting >>>> that many bytes after a blank line is encountered. Messages >>>> without bodies are simply terminated with a blank line. Note >>>> that even in protocols that use a header to specify body length >>>> (e.g. HTTP and SIP), this is not normal behavior. (SIP and >>>> HTTP take the absence of a "Content-Length" header to mean, >>>> "This message continues until the TCP connection is torn down".) >>>> >>>> The second, and larger, issue pertains to the use of a variable >>>> position header for framing purposes at all. Our experience with >>>> SIP has shown that this type of scheme makes a clean separation >>>> of parsing and framing to be difficult. Most implementations are >>>> forced to perform a rudimentary first pass of parsing to determine >>>> where a message ends, and then re-parsing of the message at a >>>> higher level once it has been read completely from the wire. >>>> This causes many implementations to be less efficient than they >>>> otherwise could be. >>>> >>>> Recognizing this situation, the next opportunity the SIP >>>> community had to design a protocol, we decided to use a >>>> more straightforward framing model. If you examine the >>>> way that MSRP works (see draft-ietf-simple-message-sessions-01), >>>> it encodes message size as part of the leader line. >>>> Specifically, implementations can always look for a number >>>> starting at the 6th character of an MSRP message to determine >>>> the length of the rest of the message. For example: >>>> >>>> MSRP 57 SEND >>>> TR-ID: 456 >>>> Content-Type: text/plain >>>> >>>> Hi, Alice! I'm Bob! >>>> >>>> I encourage SPEECHSC to learn from the experiences of the SIP >>>> community and adopt a similar scheme. >>>> >>>> /a >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Speechsc mailing list >>>> Speechsc@ietf.org >>>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Speechsc mailing list >>> Speechsc@ietf.org >>> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Fri Jul 25 13:27:34 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13250 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g6LT-0000Dr-Rn for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:27:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6PHR788000848 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:27:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g6LS-0000Db-UA for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:27:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13233 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g6LQ-0002Ap-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:27:04 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g6LQ-0002Am-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:27:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g6LO-0000CK-7a; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:27:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19g6L6-0000Be-Mc for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:26:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13228 for ; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g6L4-0002Aj-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:26:42 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19g6L3-0002Ab-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:26:41 -0400 Received: from mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com [171.71.163.17]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.9/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h6PHQ8Qk020567; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (dhcp-128-107-139-4.cisco.com [128.107.139.4]) by mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AKA65975; Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F21682F.2040806@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:26:07 -0700 From: Sarvi Shanmugham Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cullen Jennings CC: Adam Roach , Eric Burger , speechsc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Message Framing References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000501050100050103070505" Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , --------------000501050100050103070505 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From the discussion it looks like any sort of content-length header, as it exists or at fixed point very early in the message can cause in efficiencies eihter at the client or the server side. This leaves us with the option of a terminating string. We could either go for a fixed terminating string documented in the specification. OR I could add a mandatory header field very early in the message to contain the terminating string to look for when detecting the end of the frame. Sarvi Cullen Jennings wrote: >Whatever you do, don't require both the content length approach and search >for a terminating string - this brings you the worst of booth approaches. > > >On 7/24/03 13:48, "Adam Roach" wrote: > > > >>I don't know offhand how likely the case you describe is >>for speechsc. I'll note that part of the conversations we >>had around MSRP included the case in which the size of >>messages are not necessarily known when the client first >>starts sending them. After much discussion, we concluded >>that it was something we could ignore rather safely (and >>maybe address at some point in the future by dividing >>messages up using the message/partial mime type). >> >>In any case, if you determine that this is a useful case, >>you might consider using a string of unique (or at least >>unlikely) characters to mark the end of a message, in the >>same way the MIME delimits multipart bodies. >> >>I will point out that the "Content-Length" header suffers >>from the same restriction that you indicate (you can't send >>bodies of unknown size), so going to the framing scheme >>that I propose doesn't make the protocol any worse than >>what is currently written up in the internet-draft. >> >>/a >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburger@snowshore.com] >>>Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 15:36 >>>To: Adam Roach >>>Cc: speechsc@ietf.org >>>Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Message Framing >>> >>> >>>Would there ever be a situation where the client does not >>>know beforehand how long the message would be? E.g., >>>arbitrary text-to-speech? In this case, the burden of >>>reading and writing the message twice and buffering gets put >>>on the client, as opposed to the server reading the message twice. >>> >>>If there is not a case for an unbounded request, or it is >>>very unlikely, I would put the burden on the client. >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Sarvi Shanmugham [mailto:sarvi@cisco.com] >>>>Sent: Thu, July 24, 2003 12:54 AM >>>>To: Adam Roach >>>>Cc: 'speechsc@ietf.org' >>>>Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Message Framing >>>> >>>> >>>>sounds reasonable. >>>>I will make the necessary changes, if no has any objections. >>>> >>>>Sarvi >>>> >>>>Adam Roach wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>At the meeting last week, I attempted to raise an issue >>>>>of message framing. I believe that my explanation may >>>>>have been somewhat unclear, so I will attempt to raise >>>>>it here. >>>>> >>>>>As I do not subscribe to the speechsc mailing list, >>>>>please try to keep my address in the recipients list for >>>>>any follow-ups on this topic. >>>>> >>>>>To examine this issue, I will consider the following >>>>>example messages from draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00: >>>>> >>>>>1) Message with a body >>>>> >>>>> SPEAK 543257 SPEECHSC/1.0 >>>>> Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 >>>>> Voice-gender: neutral >>>>> Voice-category: teenager >>>>> Prosody-volume: medium >>>>> Content-Type: application/synthesis+ssml >>>>> Content-Length: 104 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You have 4 new messages. >>>>> The first is from >>>> type="name">Stephanie Williams >>>>> and arrived at >>>>> 3:45pm. >>>>> The subject is >>>> rate="-20%">ski trip >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>2) Message without a body >>>>> >>>>> SPEAK-COMPLETE 543257 COMPLETE SPEECHSC/1.0 >>>>> Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802 >>>>> >>>>>The first issue to note is the difference in handling between >>>>>messages with and those without bodies. Messages with bodies >>>>>are framed by finding a "Content-Length" header, and counting >>>>>that many bytes after a blank line is encountered. Messages >>>>>without bodies are simply terminated with a blank line. Note >>>>>that even in protocols that use a header to specify body length >>>>>(e.g. HTTP and SIP), this is not normal behavior. (SIP and >>>>>HTTP take the absence of a "Content-Length" header to mean, >>>>>"This message continues until the TCP connection is torn down".) >>>>> >>>>>The second, and larger, issue pertains to the use of a variable >>>>>position header for framing purposes at all. Our experience with >>>>>SIP has shown that this type of scheme makes a clean separation >>>>>of parsing and framing to be difficult. Most implementations are >>>>>forced to perform a rudimentary first pass of parsing to determine >>>>>where a message ends, and then re-parsing of the message at a >>>>>higher level once it has been read completely from the wire. >>>>>This causes many implementations to be less efficient than they >>>>>otherwise could be. >>>>> >>>>>Recognizing this situation, the next opportunity the SIP >>>>>community had to design a protocol, we decided to use a >>>>>more straightforward framing model. If you examine the >>>>>way that MSRP works (see draft-ietf-simple-message-sessions-01), >>>>>it encodes message size as part of the leader line. >>>>>Specifically, implementations can always look for a number >>>>>starting at the 6th character of an MSRP message to determine >>>>>the length of the rest of the message. For example: >>>>> >>>>> MSRP 57 SEND >>>>> TR-ID: 456 >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain >>>>> >>>>> Hi, Alice! I'm Bob! >>>>> >>>>>I encourage SPEECHSC to learn from the experiences of the SIP >>>>>community and adopt a similar scheme. >>>>> >>>>>/a >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Speechsc mailing list >>>>>Speechsc@ietf.org >>>>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Speechsc mailing list >>>>Speechsc@ietf.org >>>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Speechsc mailing list >>Speechsc@ietf.org >>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >Speechsc mailing list >Speechsc@ietf.org >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > > --------------000501050100050103070505 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From the discussion it looks like any sort of content-length header, as it exists or at fixed point very early in the message can cause in efficiencies eihter at the client or the server side.

This leaves us with the option of a terminating string. We could either go for a fixed terminating string documented in the specification. OR I could add a mandatory header field very early in the message to contain the terminating string to look for when detecting  the end of the frame.

Sarvi

Cullen Jennings wrote:
Whatever you do, don't require both the content length approach and search
for a terminating string - this brings you the worst of booth approaches.


On 7/24/03 13:48, "Adam Roach" <adam@dynamicsoft.com> wrote:

  
I don't know offhand how likely the case you describe is
for speechsc. I'll note that part of the conversations we
had around MSRP included the case in which the size of
messages are not necessarily known when the client first
starts sending them. After much discussion, we concluded
that it was something we could ignore rather safely (and
maybe address at some point in the future by dividing
messages up using the message/partial mime type).

In any case, if you determine that this is a useful case,
you might consider using a string of unique (or at least
unlikely) characters to mark the end of a message, in the
same way the MIME delimits multipart bodies.

I will point out that the "Content-Length" header suffers
from the same restriction that you indicate (you can't send
bodies of unknown size), so going to the framing scheme
that I propose doesn't make the protocol any worse than
what is currently written up in the internet-draft.

/a

    
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburger@snowshore.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 15:36
To: Adam Roach
Cc: speechsc@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Message Framing


Would there ever be a situation where the client does not
know beforehand how long the message would be?  E.g.,
arbitrary text-to-speech?  In this case, the burden of
reading and writing the message twice and buffering gets put
on the client, as opposed to the server reading the message twice.

If there is not a case for an unbounded request, or it is
very unlikely, I would put the burden on the client.

      
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarvi Shanmugham [mailto:sarvi@cisco.com]
Sent: Thu, July 24, 2003 12:54 AM
To: Adam Roach
Cc: 'speechsc@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Message Framing


sounds reasonable.
I will make the necessary changes, if no has any objections.

Sarvi

Adam Roach wrote:

        
At the meeting last week, I attempted to raise an issue
of message framing. I believe that my explanation may
have been somewhat unclear, so I will attempt to raise
it here.

As I do not subscribe to the speechsc mailing list,
please try to keep my address in the recipients list for
any follow-ups on this topic.

To examine this issue, I will consider the following
example messages from draft-shanmugham-speechsc-00:

1) Message with a body

  SPEAK 543257 SPEECHSC/1.0
  Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802
  Voice-gender: neutral
  Voice-category: teenager
  Prosody-volume: medium
  Content-Type: application/synthesis+ssml
  Content-Length: 104
    
  <?xml version="1.0"?>
  <speak> 
   <paragraph>
     <sentence>You have 4 new messages.</sentence>
     <sentence>The first is from <say-as
     type="name">Stephanie Williams</say-as>
     and arrived at <break/>
     <say-as type="time">3:45pm</say-as>.</sentence>
     <sentence>The subject is <prosody
     rate="-20%">ski trip</prosody></sentence>
   </paragraph>
  </speak> 

2) Message without a body

  SPEAK-COMPLETE 543257 COMPLETE SPEECHSC/1.0
  Channel-Identifier: 32AECB23433802

The first issue to note is the difference in handling between
messages with and those without bodies. Messages with bodies
are framed by finding a "Content-Length" header, and counting
that many bytes after a blank line is encountered. Messages
without bodies are simply terminated with a blank line. Note
that even in protocols that use a header to specify body length
(e.g. HTTP and SIP), this is not normal behavior. (SIP and
HTTP take the absence of a "Content-Length" header to mean,
"This message continues until the TCP connection is torn down".)

The second, and larger, issue pertains to the use of a variable
position header for framing purposes at all. Our experience with
SIP has shown that this type of scheme makes a clean separation
of parsing and framing to be difficult. Most implementations are
forced to perform a rudimentary first pass of parsing to determine
where a message ends, and then re-parsing of the message at a
higher level once it has been read completely from the wire.
This causes many implementations to be less efficient than they
otherwise could be.

Recognizing this situation, the next opportunity the SIP
community had to design a protocol, we decided to use a
more straightforward framing model. If you examine the
way that MSRP works (see draft-ietf-simple-message-sessions-01),
it encodes message size as part of the leader line.
Specifically, implementations can always look for a number
starting at the 6th character of an MSRP message to determine
the length of the rest of the message. For example:

   MSRP 57 SEND
   TR-ID: 456
   Content-Type: text/plain

   Hi, Alice! I'm Bob!

I encourage SPEECHSC to learn from the experiences of the SIP
community and adopt a similar scheme.

/a

_______________________________________________
Speechsc mailing list
Speechsc@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc

 

          

_______________________________________________
Speechsc mailing list
Speechsc@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc


        
_______________________________________________
Speechsc mailing list
Speechsc@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc

    


_______________________________________________
Speechsc mailing list
Speechsc@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc

--------------000501050100050103070505-- _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 11:07:27 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25792 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hW47-0005na-Py for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:07:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6TF73vl022286 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:07:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hW47-0005nN-JJ for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:07:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25782 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:06:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hW44-0006N8-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:07:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hW44-0006N4-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:07:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hW45-0005m5-An; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:07:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hW3f-0005lO-K4 for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:06:35 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA25766 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hW3d-0006Mp-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:06:33 -0400 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hW3c-0006Mb-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:06:32 -0400 Received: from cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Jul 2003 08:06:03 -0700 Received: from [10.32.254.186] (stealth-10-32-254-186.cisco.com [10.32.254.186]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h6TF5xuG017044; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:05:55 -0400 From: "David R. Oran" To: Saravanan Shanmugham , speechsc@ietf.org Message-ID: <426856031.1059476755@[10.32.254.186]> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Speechsc] Consensus to adopt draft-shanmughan-speechsc-00 Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having heard no objections on the list, the chairs believe we have WG consensus to adopt draft-shanmughan-speechsc-00 as a working group draft and to progress it toward proposed standard status according to the speechsc charter. Sarvi is tasked to: - address the issues raised in the WG meeting in Vienna and on the list - work with Dan Burnett and others to add the necessary protocol machinery to support SI and SV applications. - re-issue the document as a working group draft, with a name like "draft-speechsc-protocol-00.txt. We'd like to have this done by early September. There is a secondary issue as to what we should call the protocol. I'll address this in a separate email. Best wishes an fun for those of you on holiday. Dave, speechsc co-chair ------------------------ David R. Oran Cisco Systems 7 Ladyslipper Lane Acton, MA 01720 Office: +1 978 264 2048 VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 Email: oran@cisco.com _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 11:17:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26130 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWDo-0006Up-1d for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:17:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6TFH4BS024965 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:17:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWDn-0006Ua-Ut for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:17:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26104 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWDn-0006S9-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:17:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWDm-0006S6-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:17:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWDl-0006Tx-2S; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:17:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWD8-0006Rm-2J for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:16:22 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26061 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWD7-0006Rh-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:16:21 -0400 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWCu-0006RV-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:16:12 -0400 Received: from [10.32.254.186] (stealth-10-32-254-186.cisco.com [10.32.254.186]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with SMTP id h6TFFXpp026701 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:15:29 -0400 From: "David R. Oran" To: speechsc@ietf.org Message-ID: <427429796.1059477329@[10.32.254.186]> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we get the fun task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of the working group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs (Allison) during a break at the IETF meeting. There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version 2". One is that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to re-use the name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we definitely don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP and MEGACO, and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to simply call it version 2. One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we are working on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with the same name and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone tablets however. Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I would like to see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors to post the first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. Thanks, Dave. ------------------------ David R. Oran Cisco Systems 7 Ladyslipper Lane Acton, MA 01720 Office: +1 978 264 2048 VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 Email: oran@cisco.com _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 11:32:28 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26376 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWSI-0006l7-QU for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:02 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6TFW2W1025975 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWSI-0006ks-NC for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26363 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWSH-0006YL-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWSH-0006YI-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWSG-0006jb-ST; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWRS-0006id-Sa for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:31:10 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26336 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWOn-0006WX-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:28:25 -0400 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWOl-0006WA-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:28:24 -0400 Received: from mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (IDENT:mirapoint@mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com [171.71.163.17]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h6TFRlpr006824; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (sjc-vpn1-174.cisco.com [10.21.96.174]) by mira-sjc5-c.cisco.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.3.6-GR) with ESMTP id AKE07929; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3F269273.8060509@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 08:27:47 -0700 From: Sarvi Shanmugham Organization: Cisco Systems Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David R. Oran" CC: speechsc@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol References: <427429796.1059477329@[10.32.254.186]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David R. Oran wrote: > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we get > the fun task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better > suggestions, the default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". > > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of the > working group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our > ADs (Allison) during a break at the IETF meeting. > > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version 2". > One is that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier > to re-use the name than socialize a new name. The second is that while > the IESG is willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational > RFC, we definitely don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen > with MGCP and MEGACO, and instead clearly position the new protocol as > superseding and obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this > is to simply call it version 2. Sounds reasonable. I vote yes. Sarvi > > > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we are > working on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed > MRCP. Such backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with > the same name and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone > tablets however. > > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I would > like to see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors > to post the first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one > name change. > > Thanks, Dave. > > ------------------------ > David R. Oran > Cisco Systems > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > Acton, MA 01720 > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > Email: oran@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 12:08:28 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27408 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hX19-0000ol-Gu for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:08:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6TG8393003137 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:08:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hX19-0000oW-B9 for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:08:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA27400 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hX17-0006sZ-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:08:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hX17-0006sW-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:08:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hX17-0000n5-3O; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:08:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hWSU-0006n0-4n for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:14 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA26368 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWST-0006YV-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:13 -0400 Received: from [216.248.178.195] (helo=www.vocalocity.net) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hWSS-0006YM-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:12 -0400 Received: from JHAYNIE2 (unknown [10.0.100.77]) by www.vocalocity.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A336A445; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <008101c355e7$5bd22190$4d64000a@JHAYNIE2> From: "Jeff Haynie" To: "David R. Oran" Cc: References: <427429796.1059477329@[10.32.254.186]> Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 11:37:46 -0400 Organization: Vocalocity, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like the idea of having MRCP v2 for mainly the market reasons. These days, there are so many different protocols and specs that it ends up confusing end customers with "yet another name". Although there are not a lot of MRCP deployments, the name is very familiar with most customers/partners I talk with. However, when I mentioned SpeechSC, people have know clue about the work in progress. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "David R. Oran" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:15 AM Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we get the fun > task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the > default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". > > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of the working > group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs (Allison) > during a break at the IETF meeting. > > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version 2". One is > that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to re-use the > name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is > willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we definitely > don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP and MEGACO, > and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and > obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to simply call it > version 2. > > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we are working > on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such > backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with the same name > and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone tablets however. > > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I would like to > see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors to post the > first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. > > Thanks, Dave. > > ------------------------ > David R. Oran > Cisco Systems > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > Acton, MA 01720 > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > Email: oran@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 13:23:27 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01630 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYBj-0003lk-PU for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:23:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6THN3jA014482 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:23:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYBj-0003lV-LJ for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:23:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01608 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYBh-0000CB-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:23:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYBh-0000C8-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:23:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYBh-0003lA-8c; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:23:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hYBd-0003kt-R5 for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:57 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA01605 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYBb-0000C3-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:55 -0400 Received: from e3.ny.us.ibm.com ([32.97.182.103]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hYBa-0000Bh-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:54 -0400 Received: from northrelay04.pok.ibm.com (northrelay04.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.206]) by e3.ny.us.ibm.com (8.12.9/8.12.2) with ESMTP id h6THMGpW185706 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:16 -0400 Received: from d27ml601.rchland.ibm.com (d01av02.pok.ibm.com [9.56.224.216]) by northrelay04.pok.ibm.com (8.12.9/NCO/VER6.5) with ESMTP id h6THMFhB101054 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 13:22:15 -0400 From: Edward Epstein To: speechsc@ietf.org Message-ID: Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 12:22:14 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on d27ml601/27/M/IBM(Release 6.0.1CF2|June 05, 2003| =?UTF-8?B?6oCSwoApIGF0IDA3LzI5LzIwMDMgMTI6MjI6MTYgUE0=?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Speechsc] Edward Epstein/Watson/IBM is on vacation. Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , I will be out of the office starting July 27, 2003 and will not return until August 5, 2003. _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 16:45:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08560 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hbLE-0004bh-O0 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:45:05 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6TKj4eT017705 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:45:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hbLE-0004bU-Jz for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:45:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08505 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hbLC-0001f1-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:45:02 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hbLC-0001ey-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:45:02 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hbLB-0004b0-O3; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:45:01 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hbKY-0004TO-WD for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:44:23 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08489 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hbKX-0001eM-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:44:21 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hbKV-0001e6-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:44:19 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 28854; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:42:18 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:43:48 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D097CEB@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Thread-Index: AcNV5HrD2XF9DAa2TDeRkC42rIc9bQALK/Ug From: "Eric Burger" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also had some private conversations in Vienna. Here are some = takeaways: 1. MRCP is gaining some traction -- vendors are a bit hesitant about = supporting the SPEECHSC effort because of bad experiences in the = MGCP/MEGACO split. 2. Vendors like the idea that the protocol formerly known as SPEECHSC = (t.p.f.k.a.s) uses most of the syntax, grammar, and machinery of MRCP. = Said differently, the migration from MRCP to t.p.f.k.a.s. is mostly = about cutting out code, not writing entirely new code. 3. Calling t.p.f.k.a.s. MRCPv2 gives implementers a clue that we are = talking about evolution, not revolution. Investments made today in MRCP = will not be lost on MRCPv2. 4. Calling t.p.f.k.a.s. MRCPv2 signals to users that there is a = migration path from MRCP to "the next thing." Part of the very slow = adoption of H.248.1 over MGCP is they are different beasts. Users = tended to like one or the other, and have no plans for migration. In = our case, it makes sense to hint that a migration from MRCP = (informational, not a standard) to MRCPv2 (standards track) is just part = of the normal evolution of the protocol. Thus my vote (chair hat off) is also MRCPv2. > -----Original Message----- > From: David R. Oran [mailto:oran@cisco.com] > Sent: Tue, July 29, 2003 11:15 AM > To: speechsc@ietf.org > Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol >=20 >=20 > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC,=20 > we get the fun=20 > task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the=20 > default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". >=20 > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration=20 > of the working=20 > group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our=20 > ADs (Allison)=20 > during a break at the IETF meeting. >=20 > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP=20 > Version 2". One is=20 > that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier=20 > to re-use the=20 > name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is=20 > willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC,=20 > we definitely=20 > don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP=20 > and MEGACO,=20 > and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and=20 > obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to=20 > simply call it=20 > version 2. >=20 > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol=20 > we are working=20 > on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such=20 > backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with=20 > the same name=20 > and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone=20 > tablets however. >=20 > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I=20 > would like to=20 > see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors=20 > to post the=20 > first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. >=20 > Thanks, Dave. >=20 > ------------------------ > David R. Oran > Cisco Systems > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > Acton, MA 01720 > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > Email: oran@cisco.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 17:21:28 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA10008 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:21:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hbu4-0006bW-5V for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:21:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6TLL4Ou025381 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:21:04 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hbu4-0006bI-2i for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:21:04 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09989 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hbu1-0001z6-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:21:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hbu1-0001z0-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:21:01 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hbu2-0006aa-8Y; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:21:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hbtr-0006a5-0W for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:20:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA09978 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hbto-0001yr-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:20:48 -0400 Received: from mamaya.genesyslab.com ([198.49.180.172]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hbtn-0001yR-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:20:47 -0400 Received: from aster.us.int.genesyslab.com ([10.10.10.25.16590]) by mamaya.genesyslab.com with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1) id 19hbt0-00086L-00; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:19:59 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6375.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:19:57 -0700 Message-ID: <52F49B5A0E5B0F4781C9C8F7159409E4805A0F@aster.us.int.genesyslab.com> Thread-Topic: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Thread-Index: AcNV5Hug8wX/R0HUTcaH3rfRcCjx4wAMPL5g From: "Rajiv Dharmadhikari" To: "David R. Oran" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "MRCP" name is already gaining traction with customers, VoiceXML = platform vendors and developer community. The new protocol proposed as = part of SPEECHSC is reusing the original MRCP resource control = primitives except for modifcations in session establishment. So, it is = an evolution from the original MRCP. Therefore, I will support the = protocol to be called as "MRCP Version 2". In any case, "SPEECHSC" is = awkward to pronounce:-) -Rajiv -----Original Message----- From: David R. Oran [mailto:oran@cisco.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:15 AM To: speechsc@ietf.org Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we get the = fun=20 task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the=20 default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of the = working=20 group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs = (Allison)=20 during a break at the IETF meeting. There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version 2". One = is=20 that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to re-use = the=20 name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is=20 willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we = definitely=20 don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP and = MEGACO,=20 and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and=20 obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to simply call = it=20 version 2. One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we are = working=20 on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such=20 backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with the same = name=20 and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone tablets however. Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I would like = to=20 see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors to post = the=20 first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. Thanks, Dave. ------------------------ David R. Oran Cisco Systems 7 Ladyslipper Lane Acton, MA 01720 Office: +1 978 264 2048 VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 Email: oran@cisco.com _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Tue Jul 29 23:26:39 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21123 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hhbR-0005YO-BP for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:26:14 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6U3QD9q021344 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:26:13 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hhbR-0005YB-6h for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:26:13 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21120 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hhbP-0004Tp-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:26:11 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hhbO-0004Tm-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:26:10 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hhbE-0005XM-Jd; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:26:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hhb0-0005X9-RO for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:25:46 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA21085 for ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hhay-0004TR-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:25:44 -0400 Received: from navgw.sandcherry.com ([63.117.80.26]) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hhay-0004TO-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 23:25:44 -0400 Received: from con-63-117-80-25.rocky.net ([10.20.1.32]) by navgw.sandcherry.com (SAVSMTP 3.0.0.44) with SMTP id M2003072921245601518 ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:24:56 -0600 Received: by exchange01.sccorp.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) id ; Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:24:57 -0600 Message-ID: From: Brian Marquette To: "'Eric Burger'" , speechsc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:24:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2656.59) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Eric, You make excellent points. In our experience the industry has come to recognize the term MRCP and understand the basic semantics of the protocol. Choosing any other name would cause a certain amount of confusion among customers. Also using MRCPv2 implies that the basics of the protocol are consistent. So count us among those supporting the name MRCPv2. brian -----Original Message----- From: Eric Burger [mailto:eburger@snowshore.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 2:44 PM To: speechsc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol I also had some private conversations in Vienna. Here are some takeaways: 1. MRCP is gaining some traction -- vendors are a bit hesitant about supporting the SPEECHSC effort because of bad experiences in the MGCP/MEGACO split. 2. Vendors like the idea that the protocol formerly known as SPEECHSC (t.p.f.k.a.s) uses most of the syntax, grammar, and machinery of MRCP. Said differently, the migration from MRCP to t.p.f.k.a.s. is mostly about cutting out code, not writing entirely new code. 3. Calling t.p.f.k.a.s. MRCPv2 gives implementers a clue that we are talking about evolution, not revolution. Investments made today in MRCP will not be lost on MRCPv2. 4. Calling t.p.f.k.a.s. MRCPv2 signals to users that there is a migration path from MRCP to "the next thing." Part of the very slow adoption of H.248.1 over MGCP is they are different beasts. Users tended to like one or the other, and have no plans for migration. In our case, it makes sense to hint that a migration from MRCP (informational, not a standard) to MRCPv2 (standards track) is just part of the normal evolution of the protocol. Thus my vote (chair hat off) is also MRCPv2. > -----Original Message----- > From: David R. Oran [mailto:oran@cisco.com] > Sent: Tue, July 29, 2003 11:15 AM > To: speechsc@ietf.org > Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, > we get the fun > task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the > default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". > > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration > of the working > group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our > ADs (Allison) > during a break at the IETF meeting. > > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP > Version 2". One is > that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier > to re-use the > name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is > willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, > we definitely > don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP > and MEGACO, > and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and > obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to > simply call it > version 2. > > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol > we are working > on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such > backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with > the same name > and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone > tablets however. > > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I > would like to > see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors > to post the > first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. > > Thanks, Dave. > > ------------------------ > David R. Oran > Cisco Systems > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > Acton, MA 01720 > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > Email: oran@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 30 03:47:35 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22886 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hlfw-0006sM-SP for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:47:09 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6U7l8ZY026426 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:47:08 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hlfw-0006s9-Oj for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:47:08 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22829 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hlft-0005m8-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:47:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hlfs-0005m5-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:47:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hlfo-0006rc-O8; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:47:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hlff-0006rD-HZ for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:46:51 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA22818 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hlfc-0005li-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:46:48 -0400 Received: from smtp-103-wednesday.noc.nerim.net ([62.4.17.103] helo=mallaury.noc.nerim.net) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hlfb-0005le-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:46:47 -0400 Received: from weasel.hq.eloquant.com (styx.eloquant.com [80.65.227.37]) by mallaury.noc.nerim.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5525762D8C; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:46:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from polo (polo.hq.eloquant.com [192.168.0.131]) by weasel.hq.eloquant.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 571583B727; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 03:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brian Wyld" To: "Rajiv Dharmadhikari" , "David R. Oran" , Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:41:56 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="KOI8-R" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <52F49B5A0E5B0F4781C9C8F7159409E4805A0F@aster.us.int.genesyslab.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MRCPv2 gets my vote also.... Given that MRCPv1 (as we should now call it) is really being used and required, maybe we need a requirement on v2 that there is some kind of "compatibility mode" or mapping (so one can have a v1<->v2 proxy) defined? Brian [Brian Wyld] [brian.wyld@eloquant.com] [Directeur General R&D] [Eloquant SA] [+33 476 77 46 92] [www.eloquant.com] [advanced solutions for telecoms and IT services] > -----Message d'origine----- > De : speechsc-admin@ietf.org [mailto:speechsc-admin@ietf.org]De > la part de Rajiv Dharmadhikari > Envoye : Tuesday, July 29, 2003 23:20 > A : David R. Oran; speechsc@ietf.org > Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > "MRCP" name is already gaining traction with customers, VoiceXML > platform vendors and developer community. The new protocol > proposed as part of SPEECHSC is reusing the original MRCP > resource control primitives except for modifcations in session > establishment. So, it is an evolution from the original MRCP. > Therefore, I will support the protocol to be called as "MRCP > Version 2". In any case, "SPEECHSC" is awkward to pronounce:-) > > -Rajiv > > -----Original Message----- > From: David R. Oran [mailto:oran@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:15 AM > To: speechsc@ietf.org > Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we > get the fun > task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the > default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". > > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of > the working > group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs > (Allison) > during a break at the IETF meeting. > > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version > 2". One is > that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to > re-use the > name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is > willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we > definitely > don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP and MEGACO, > and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and > obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to > simply call it > version 2. > > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we > are working > on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such > backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with the same name > and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone tablets however. > > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I > would like to > see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors to post the > first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. > > Thanks, Dave. > > ------------------------ > David R. Oran > Cisco Systems > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > Acton, MA 01720 > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > Email: oran@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 30 07:17:34 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA26878 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hox9-0005Cj-2a for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:17:07 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6UBH74p020005 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:17:07 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hox8-0005CX-UR for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:17:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA26868 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hox5-0006s9-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:17:03 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hox5-0006s6-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:17:03 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hox2-0005CC-S8; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:17:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19howA-0005AQ-Uq for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:16:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA26856 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19howA-0006rw-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:16:06 -0400 Received: from ns1.nuance.com ([208.252.220.9]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19how9-0006rp-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:16:05 -0400 Received: from mpb1exbr01.nuance.com (mpb1exbr01.nuance.com [10.0.0.43]) by ns1.nuance.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.6) with ESMTP id h6UBKnh06920; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mtb1exch01.nuance.com ([10.3.2.6]) by mpb1exbr01.nuance.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 30 Jul 2003 04:09:25 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 07:09:22 -0400 Message-ID: <7DE7C4EF3B7C8B4B82955191378290D8EDC205@mtb1exch01.nuance.com> Thread-Topic: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Thread-Index: AcNWbtDoaRAaMO3iQWefrNNfPkwdqwAHAcKw From: "Pierre Forgues" To: , "Rajiv Dharmadhikari" , "David R. Oran" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2003 11:09:25.0837 (UTC) FILETIME=[099F17D0:01C3568B] Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would agree to calling it MRCPv2 as well, but I would steer clear of = backward compatibility being necessary. I like Brian's idea of = documenting the compatibility issues should one want to write a proxy. = /Pierre > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Wyld [mailto:brian.wyld@eloquant.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:42 AM > To: Rajiv Dharmadhikari; David R. Oran; speechsc@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol >=20 >=20 > MRCPv2 gets my vote also.... >=20 > Given that MRCPv1 (as we should now call it) is really being used and > required, maybe we need a requirement on v2 that there is some kind of > "compatibility mode" or mapping (so one can have a v1<->v2=20 > proxy) defined? >=20 > Brian >=20 > [Brian Wyld] [brian.wyld@eloquant.com] > [Directeur General R&D] > [Eloquant SA] [+33 476 77 46 92] [www.eloquant.com] > [advanced solutions for telecoms and IT services] >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : speechsc-admin@ietf.org [mailto:speechsc-admin@ietf.org]De > > la part de Rajiv Dharmadhikari > > Envoye : Tuesday, July 29, 2003 23:20 > > A : David R. Oran; speechsc@ietf.org > > Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > > > > "MRCP" name is already gaining traction with customers, VoiceXML > > platform vendors and developer community. The new protocol > > proposed as part of SPEECHSC is reusing the original MRCP > > resource control primitives except for modifcations in session > > establishment. So, it is an evolution from the original MRCP. > > Therefore, I will support the protocol to be called as "MRCP > > Version 2". In any case, "SPEECHSC" is awkward to pronounce:-) > > > > -Rajiv > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: David R. Oran [mailto:oran@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:15 AM > > To: speechsc@ietf.org > > Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > > > > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we > > get the fun > > task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the > > default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". > > > > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of > > the working > > group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs > > (Allison) > > during a break at the IETF meeting. > > > > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version > > 2". One is > > that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to > > re-use the > > name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is > > willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we > > definitely > > don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with=20 > MGCP and MEGACO, > > and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and > > obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to > > simply call it > > version 2. > > > > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we > > are working > > on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such > > backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with=20 > the same name > > and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone=20 > tablets however. > > > > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I > > would like to > > see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the=20 > authors to post the > > first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one=20 > name change. > > > > Thanks, Dave. > > > > ------------------------ > > David R. Oran > > Cisco Systems > > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > > Acton, MA 01720 > > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > > Email: oran@cisco.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speechsc mailing list > > Speechsc@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Speechsc mailing list > > Speechsc@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >=20 _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 30 11:16:53 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04527 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hsgl-00046r-Iw for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:16:27 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6UFGRf2015792 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:16:27 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hsgl-00046S-D6 for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:16:27 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04449 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hsfT-0000zB-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:15:07 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hsfS-0000z8-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:15:06 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hsfM-00043W-MB; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:15:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hsev-00042z-6H for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:14:33 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA04423 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:14:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hseu-0000ym-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:14:32 -0400 Received: from pb-relay1.scansoft.com ([198.71.64.23] helo=smtp-relay1.scansoft.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hses-0000yE-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:14:30 -0400 Received: from pb-exch.pb.scansoft.com ([10.1.4.14] RDNS failed) by smtp-relay1.scansoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:14:30 -0400 Received: by pb-exch.pb.scansoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) id ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:13:53 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Hirsch, Morna" To: speechsc@ietf.org Cc: "David R. Oran" Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:15:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Jul 2003 15:14:30.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[465851B0:01C356AD] Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , I also support to call it MRCPv2, in order to have a clear migration path for the future. But I would consider a document listing the compatibility issues necessary for the acceptance of the customers that already have MRCPv1. Morna -----Original Message----- From: Rajiv Dharmadhikari [mailto:rajivdh@genesyslab.com] Sent: Dienstag, 29. Juli 2003 23:20 To: David R. Oran; speechsc@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol "MRCP" name is already gaining traction with customers, VoiceXML platform vendors and developer community. The new protocol proposed as part of SPEECHSC is reusing the original MRCP resource control primitives except for modifcations in session establishment. So, it is an evolution from the original MRCP. Therefore, I will support the protocol to be called as "MRCP Version 2". In any case, "SPEECHSC" is awkward to pronounce:-) -Rajiv -----Original Message----- From: David R. Oran [mailto:oran@cisco.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:15 AM To: speechsc@ietf.org Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we get the fun task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of the working group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs (Allison) during a break at the IETF meeting. There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version 2". One is that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to re-use the name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we definitely don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP and MEGACO, and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to simply call it version 2. One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we are working on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with the same name and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone tablets however. Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I would like to see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors to post the first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. Thanks, Dave. ------------------------ David R. Oran Cisco Systems 7 Ladyslipper Lane Acton, MA 01720 Office: +1 978 264 2048 VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 Email: oran@cisco.com _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 30 11:57:31 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA06015 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:57:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19htK6-0005vB-FU for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:57:06 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6UFv6jD022761 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:57:06 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19htK6-0005v2-Cg for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:57:06 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05996 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19htK5-0001J5-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:57:05 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19htK4-0001J2-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:57:04 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19htK0-0005t1-BQ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:57:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19htJS-0005p4-HU for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:56:26 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA05909 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19htJR-0001IL-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:56:25 -0400 Received: from 66-193-54-209.gen.twtelecom.net ([66.193.54.209] helo=voxeo.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19htJQ-0001I4-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:56:24 -0400 Received: from [66.127.83.188] (account rj HELO voxeo.com) by voxeo.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.0.6) with ESMTP-TLS id 142550 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:55:26 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v578) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <453F513F-C2A6-11D7-85B0-00039391486C@voxeo.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: RJ Auburn Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:55:41 -0700 To: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.578) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Add my name to the list of people who would support MRCPv2. RJ --- RJ Auburn CTO, Voxeo Corporation tel:+1-407-418-1800 On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 08:15, Hirsch, Morna wrote: > I also support to call it MRCPv2, in order to have a clear migration > path > for the future. But I would consider a document listing the > compatibility > issues necessary for the acceptance of the customers that already have > MRCPv1. > > Morna > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rajiv Dharmadhikari [mailto:rajivdh@genesyslab.com] > Sent: Dienstag, 29. Juli 2003 23:20 > To: David R. Oran; speechsc@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > "MRCP" name is already gaining traction with customers, VoiceXML > platform > vendors and developer community. The new protocol proposed as part of > SPEECHSC is reusing the original MRCP resource control primitives > except for > modifcations in session establishment. So, it is an evolution from the > original MRCP. Therefore, I will support the protocol to be called as > "MRCP > Version 2". In any case, "SPEECHSC" is awkward to pronounce:-) > > -Rajiv > > -----Original Message----- > From: David R. Oran [mailto:oran@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:15 AM > To: speechsc@ietf.org > Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we get > the fun > task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the > default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". > > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of the > working > group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs > (Allison) > during a break at the IETF meeting. > > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version 2". > One is > that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to > re-use the > name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is > willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we > definitely > don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP and > MEGACO, > and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and > obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to simply > call it > version 2. > > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we are > working > on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such > backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with the same > name > and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone tablets however. > > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I would > like to > see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors to post > the > first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. > > Thanks, Dave. > > ------------------------ > David R. Oran > Cisco Systems > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > Acton, MA 01720 > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > Email: oran@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 30 13:38:28 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09789 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hutn-0003S9-3d for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:38:03 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6UHc3uh013268 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:38:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hutn-0003Rv-0m for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:38:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09778 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hutk-00026h-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:38:00 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hutk-00026e-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:38:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hutk-0003RJ-GH; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:38:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hutM-0003Lh-2J for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:36 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09754 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hutJ-000262-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:34 -0400 Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.49]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hutJ-00025z-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:33 -0400 Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-2-9.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by crufty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6UHbK9Y035553; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mcs.research.bell-labs.com (mcs.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.32.15]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h6UHbDF2010403; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from QZHOULT (QZHOU-LT.bl.bell-labs.com [135.104.37.74]) by mcs.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h6UHbDdL985250; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <014401c356c1$071242e0$4a256887@bl.belllabs.com> Reply-To: "Qiru Zhou" From: "Qiru Zhou" To: "David R. Oran" , References: <427429796.1059477329@[10.32.254.186]> Subject: Re: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:35:54 -0400 Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I vote for MRCPv2. It is good that we are not creating dual tracks that doing similar things. MRCP provides a broader scope on media resource control. I believe it has good industrial attention at this point. What I'd like to see is an elegant, concise protocol that apply to general media resource control, including speech. It should be easy to make an implementation compliant to make different implementations interoperable. In the past, we saw too many problems that different implementations of the same API that are not interoperable. Which defeats the purpose of an open protocol or API. -- Qiru ----- Original Message ----- From: "David R. Oran" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 11:15 AM Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we get the fun > task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better suggestions, the > default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". > > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of the working > group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs (Allison) > during a break at the IETF meeting. > > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version 2". One is > that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to re-use the > name than socialize a new name. The second is that while the IESG is > willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we definitely > don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with MGCP and MEGACO, > and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and > obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to simply call it > version 2. > > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we are working > on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed MRCP. Such > backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with the same name > and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone tablets however. > > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I would like to > see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the authors to post the > first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one name change. > > Thanks, Dave. > > ------------------------ > David R. Oran > Cisco Systems > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > Acton, MA 01720 > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > Email: oran@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 30 14:29:27 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12003 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hvh8-0006Fx-H9 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:29:02 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6UIT2L7024043 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:29:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hvh8-0006Fi-DA for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:29:02 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11963 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hvh5-0002Zz-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:28:59 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hvh5-0002Zv-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:28:59 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hvh6-0006FI-Pi; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:29:00 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hvgz-0006En-2M for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:28:53 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA11957 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hvgw-0002Zo-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:28:50 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hvgv-0002ZN-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:28:50 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 29085; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:26:45 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:28:15 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D59E4FB@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: Name Consensus? Thread-Index: AcNWyFcv3b3/XXldSD6MVAKsFxmGdQ== From: "Eric Burger" To: "IETF SPEECHSC (E-mail)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Speechsc] Name Consensus? Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It sounds like we have consensus on MRCPv2 as the name of the protocol. That said, does anyone OBJECT? If so, please speak up. Feel free to = e-mail Dave or I directly if you don't want to object in public. _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc From exim@www1.ietf.org Wed Jul 30 14:36:29 2003 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12257 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hvnw-0006SO-0V for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:36:04 -0400 Received: (from exim@localhost) by www1.ietf.org (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id h6UIa3ES024816 for speechsc-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:36:03 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hvnv-0006SB-Ts for speechsc-web-archive@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:36:03 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12246 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hvnt-0002d4-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:36:01 -0400 Received: from ietf.org ([132.151.1.19] helo=optimus.ietf.org) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hvns-0002d1-00 for speechsc-web-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:36:00 -0400 Received: from localhost.localdomain ([127.0.0.1] helo=www1.ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hvnu-0006RR-G2; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:36:02 -0400 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by optimus.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19hvno-0006QY-2N for speechsc@optimus.ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:35:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12239 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hvnl-0002cm-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:35:53 -0400 Received: from goalie.snowshore.com ([216.57.133.4] helo=webshield.office.snowshore.com) by ietf-mx with smtp (Exim 4.12) id 19hvnk-0002ch-00 for speechsc@ietf.org; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:35:52 -0400 Received: from zoe.office.snowshore.com(192.168.1.172) by webshield.office.snowshore.com via csmap id 26071; Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:33:48 -0400 (EDT) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 14:35:22 -0400 Message-ID: <4A3384433CE2AB46A63468CB207E209D59E4FD@zoe.office.snowshore.com> Thread-Topic: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol Thread-Index: AcNWbtDoaRAaMO3iQWefrNNfPkwdqwAHAcKwAA+MTiA= From: "Eric Burger" To: "Pierre Forgues" , Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: speechsc-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: speechsc-admin@ietf.org X-BeenThere: speechsc@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12 Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Speech Services Control Working Group List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If we want to go this route (describing compatibility), I would suggest = putting that into a separate document, for now. Clearly, it will have to wait until the bulk of the work on the new = protocol is done. > -----Original Message----- > From: Pierre Forgues [mailto:forgues@nuance.com] > Sent: Wed, July 30, 2003 7:09 AM > To: brian.wyld@eloquant.com; Rajiv Dharmadhikari; David R.=20 > Oran; speechsc@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol >=20 >=20 > I would agree to calling it MRCPv2 as well, but I would steer=20 > clear of backward compatibility being necessary. I like=20 > Brian's idea of documenting the compatibility issues should=20 > one want to write a proxy. /Pierre >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brian Wyld [mailto:brian.wyld@eloquant.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 3:42 AM > > To: Rajiv Dharmadhikari; David R. Oran; speechsc@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > >=20 > >=20 > > MRCPv2 gets my vote also.... > >=20 > > Given that MRCPv1 (as we should now call it) is really=20 > being used and > > required, maybe we need a requirement on v2 that there is=20 > some kind of > > "compatibility mode" or mapping (so one can have a v1<->v2=20 > > proxy) defined? > >=20 > > Brian > >=20 > > [Brian Wyld] [brian.wyld@eloquant.com] > > [Directeur General R&D] > > [Eloquant SA] [+33 476 77 46 92] [www.eloquant.com] > > [advanced solutions for telecoms and IT services] > >=20 > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : speechsc-admin@ietf.org [mailto:speechsc-admin@ietf.org]De > > > la part de Rajiv Dharmadhikari > > > Envoye : Tuesday, July 29, 2003 23:20 > > > A : David R. Oran; speechsc@ietf.org > > > Objet : RE: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > > > > > > > "MRCP" name is already gaining traction with customers, VoiceXML > > > platform vendors and developer community. The new protocol > > > proposed as part of SPEECHSC is reusing the original MRCP > > > resource control primitives except for modifcations in session > > > establishment. So, it is an evolution from the original MRCP. > > > Therefore, I will support the protocol to be called as "MRCP > > > Version 2". In any case, "SPEECHSC" is awkward to pronounce:-) > > > > > > -Rajiv > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: David R. Oran [mailto:oran@cisco.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 8:15 AM > > > To: speechsc@ietf.org > > > Subject: [Speechsc] Name for the Speechsc protocol > > > > > > > > > Now that we have a candidate protocol document for SPEECHSC, we > > > get the fun > > > task of cooking up a name. In the absence of better=20 > suggestions, the > > > default would in fact be "SPEECHSC". > > > > > > I would like to suggest an alternative for the consideration of > > > the working > > > group. This is based on a conversation I had with one of our ADs > > > (Allison) > > > during a break at the IETF meeting. > > > > > > There are some advantages to calling the protocol "MRCP Version > > > 2". One is > > > that there is some market visibility for MRCP and it's easier to > > > re-use the > > > name than socialize a new name. The second is that while=20 > the IESG is > > > willing to publish MRCP (version 1) as an informational RFC, we > > > definitely > > > don't want a dual-track in the market as we've seen with=20 > > MGCP and MEGACO, > > > and instead clearly position the new protocol as superseding and > > > obsolescing MRCP version 1. The easiest way to do this is to > > > simply call it > > > version 2. > > > > > > One counter-argument to this logic is that that the protocol we > > > are working > > > on is not backwards compatible with the existing deployed=20 > MRCP. Such > > > backward compatibility is often expected of a protocol with=20 > > the same name > > > and a higher version number. This is not cast on stone=20 > > tablets however. > > > > > > Opinions and alternatives welcome. Please post to the list. I > > > would like to > > > see if we can get consensus on a name in time for the=20 > > authors to post the > > > first WG-item draft of the protocol, so we only have one=20 > > name change. > > > > > > Thanks, Dave. > > > > > > ------------------------ > > > David R. Oran > > > Cisco Systems > > > 7 Ladyslipper Lane > > > Acton, MA 01720 > > > Office: +1 978 264 2048 > > > VoIP: +1 408 571 4576 > > > Email: oran@cisco.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speechsc mailing list > > > Speechsc@ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Speechsc mailing list > > > Speechsc@ietf.org > > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > > > > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Speechsc mailing list > > Speechsc@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Speechsc mailing list > Speechsc@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Speechsc mailing list Speechsc@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/speechsc