From extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun Jun 1 05:29:37 2003 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA03054 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 05:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h519TsR21020 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 2003 05:29:54 -0400 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 05:29:54 -0400 Message-Id: <200306010929.h519TsR21020@share.research.bell-labs.com> Subject: lists.bell-labs.com mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@lists.bell-labs.com To: spirits-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes X-Ack: no Sender: extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: extest@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your lists.bell-labs.com mailing list memberships. 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Passwords for spirits-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- spirits@lists.bell-labs.com unmora http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/options/spirits/spirits-archive%40lists.ietf.org From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue Jun 3 17:42:22 2003 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25725 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53Lg6R22666; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:42:06 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h53LfZR22653 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:41:35 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h53LfJHa089717 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id F0324443A5; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA3F7443A4 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dusty.research.bell-labs.com (dusty.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.7]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h53Lf7c6037171; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vmmr7.verisignmail.com (vmmrnat.verisignmail.com [216.168.230.187]) by dusty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h53Lg0Ux055857; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ms1.verisignmail.com (ms1.verisignmail.com [216.168.230.167] (may be forged)) by vmmr7.verisignmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id OWO50717; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from BOB.AppliedSNMP.com (pcp830034pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [68.50.129.39]) by ms1.verisignmail.com (Mirapoint Messaging Server MOS 3.2.2-GA) with ESMTP id AHT12090; Tue, 3 Jun 2003 17:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20030603173615.02e55d88@mail.AppliedSNMP.com> X-Sender: Bob.Natale@AppliedSNMP.com@mail.AppliedSNMP.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: faynberg@bell-labs.com From: Bob Natale Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] draft-ietf-spirits-security-00.txt Cc: "Vijay K. Gurbani" , abrusilovsky@wideopenwest.com, Steve Bellovin , SPIRITS list In-Reply-To: <3ED64C9A.D8F29240@bell-labs.com> References: <3ed4e264.7a16.1804289383@wideopenwest.com> <3ED618E4.8010601@lucent.com> <3ED639DF.BB477BF2@bell-labs.com> <3ED63DD1.5090407@lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 17:43:34 -0400 At 5/29/2003:02:08 PM, Igor Faynberg wrote: Hi Igor, Overall, your response is one of the best (most useful) pieces of generic guidance I've read on any IETF list in recent memory. >"Vijay K. Gurbani" wrote: >>... >> Regarding the usuability of the gateway, I am now convinced that >> unlike PINT, where its usability was limited, in SPIRITS it has >> a useful place. Initially, I viewed the gateway as merely a >> proxy, but on talking to others, it seems that there is a useful >> role for the gateway in SPIRITS. >>... > >No, no, no! SPIRITS and PINT are the same thing, or more precisely, they are >mirror images of each other. Besides, no SPIRITS service (except maybe ICW) that >can really be implemented without what constitues a PINT service, nor could PINT >conference calling be implemented without SPIRITS. > >The division between PINT and SPIRITS was division of work between two WGs. Right...that kind of thing happens a lot, by design, due to IETF organizational style. It is very important for those IETF members with knowledge of the relevant history and architecture in each case (which cannot and should not be every IETF member!) to keep such aspects clear to the relevant WGs. >If any solution violates the architectural principles then I would be inclined >to say that the solution is wrong, and we must find the one that violates >nothing. Yes, that should always be the preferred modus operandi. >(Because the alternative would be to restart the architectural work >from the beginning, which I think is unwarranted.) I agree completely in this case...but note that we must always be open to the possibility that some changes in the external environment will warrant changes in the IETF's architectural work (whether established or in progress). [Apologies to those who feel my comments above might be more appropriate for the "problem-statement" WG...but I'm more interested in concrete examples of the principles, as is the case here.] Cheers, BobN _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed Jun 4 05:09:07 2003 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA08905 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h54992R26958; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:09:02 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (ns1.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5498cR26945 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:08:38 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5498MHa093657 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 987A5443A5; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CD9E443A4 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dusty.research.bell-labs.com (dusty.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.7]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5498Hc6071365 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rsys000a.roke.co.uk (rsys000a.roke.co.uk [193.118.201.102]) by dusty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with SMTP id h54999Ux070537 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 05:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by rsys001a.roke.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:07:55 +0100 Received: from orion.roke.co.uk ([193.118.192.66]) by rsys002a.roke.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id M1MBK606; Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:07:49 +0100 From: "Conroy, Lawrence (SMTP)" To: faynberg@bell-labs.com, "Vijay K. Gurbani" Cc: abrusilovsky@wideopenwest.com, Steve Bellovin , SPIRITS list Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: lwc@127.0.0.1 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3ED64C9A.D8F29240@bell-labs.com> References: <3ed4e264.7a16.1804289383@wideopenwest.com> <3ED618E4.8010601@lucent.com> <3ED639DF.BB477BF2@bell-labs.com> <3ED63DD1.5090407@lucent.com> <3ED64C9A.D8F29240@bell-labs.com> Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] draft-ietf-spirits-security-00.txt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary" Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 10:08:12 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 2:08 pm -0400 29/5/03, Igor Faynberg wrote: >"Vijay K. Gurbani" wrote: >> >>... >> Regarding the usuability of the gateway, I am now convinced that >> unlike PINT, where its usability was limited, in SPIRITS it has >> a useful place. Initially, I viewed the gateway as merely a >> proxy, but on talking to others, it seems that there is a useful >> role for the gateway in SPIRITS. >>... > > >No, no, no! SPIRITS and PINT are the same thing, or more precisely, they are >mirror images of each other. Besides, no SPIRITS service (except >maybe ICW) that >can really be implemented without what constitues a PINT service, >nor could PINT >conference calling be implemented without SPIRITS. > >The division between PINT and SPIRITS was division of work between two WGs. > >If any solution violates the architectural principles then I would be inclined >to say that the solution is wrong, and we must find the one that violates >nothing. (Because the alternative would be to restart the architectural work >from the beginning, which I think is unwarranted.) > >This is not to say that a proxy may not be outside of the PSTN. Of >course it may >(and has to)! But it should not have a function of the SPIRITS gateway then. > >Igor Hi Folks, At the risk of this being a "Me too" post, Me too. The Gateway will be owned by the (PSTN) Operator, at least in real life. The Gateways in PINT and SPIRITS have defined roles, and as the esteemed member from Holmdel points out, they always were and are mirrors of one another; both bubbles trapped in the surface. If someone wants or needs to add a further gatewaying function to deal with different protocol architectures on either side of the border, that's fine. It just isn't a PINT/SPIRITS gateway function, at least to someone as old as me who can (just) remember Jim Buller's architecture diagrams. Perhaps one might be able to provide the same service using other architectures, but those ARE other architectures. One should look back through the early meeting presentations, in particular at the pictures, from time to time. IMHO they are worth a thousand words. If only other WGs remembered where they came from before adding Byzantine complexities, the world would be a better place - just 'cos others do, we shouldn't. I LIKE simple pictures, as I am a bear of little brain; the PINT/SPIRITS architecture is clear from the diagrams produced, and adding other functions merely reflects a different architecture. all the best, Lawrence -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Roke Manor Research : This information is provided "as is" and is not : intended to create any contractual or legal : relationship. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain; name="RMRL-Disclaimer.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="RMRL-Disclaimer.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Registered Office: Roke Manor Research Ltd, Siemens House, Oldbury, Bracknell, Berkshire. RG12 8FZ The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments is confidential to Roke Manor Research Ltd and must not be passed to any third party without permission. This communication is for information only and shall not create or change any contractual relationship. --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary-- _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon Jun 30 10:16:47 2003 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA26695 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5UEG6j31648; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:16:06 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h5UEFKj31635 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:15:20 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5UEF4Ha027459 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 8F23D443A5; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from scummy.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C4A443A4 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ihmail.ih.lucent.com (ihmail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.218.70]) by scummy.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h5UEEv1u039392 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com (il0015vkg1.ih.lucent.com [135.185.173.147]) by ihmail.ih.lucent.com (8.11.6+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id h5UEEvP17764; Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:14:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3F0045B1.9030807@lucent.com> From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Organization: Wireless Netwoks Group User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SPIRITS list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SPIRITS] SPIRITS Protocol complete; -05 I-D Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 09:14:09 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks: I have submitted the latest version of the SPIRITS Protocol I-D (-05). Until it appears in the archives, you can access it from the following URL: http://www.iit.edu/~gurbvij/I-D/draft-ietf-spirits-protocol-05.txt With this version, we are approaching the point in the I-D's life where, I believe, it is complete. All the sections are now filled out and I have incorporated into the protocol I-D the matter from and the ensuing discussions on the WG mailing list on this subject. I believe we have a rather complete protocol I-D that we should review in earnest. Hopefully, after the Vienna IETF, we can put it up for a WGLC. Regards, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits