From nobody Sun Sep 1 01:19:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3381200CE for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 01:19:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XO3Vrn8JaXFh for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 01:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esmtp-1.proxad.net (esmtp-1.proxad.net [213.36.6.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E8212004D for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 01:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by esmtp-1.proxad.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667CBA4010C; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 10:19:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at proxad.net Received: from esmtp-1.proxad.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (esmtp-b23-1.proxad.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1S98Jb9YyUo9; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 10:19:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zstore-3.mgt.proxad.net (unknown [172.18.94.10]) by esmtp-1.proxad.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76771A400BE; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 10:19:19 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 10:19:19 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien?= Parisot To: SPRING WG List Cc: "Zafar Ali, zali" , Rob Shakir , Satoru Matsushima Message-ID: <376967329.83741002.1567325959372.JavaMail.zimbra@free-mobile.fr> In-Reply-To: <74217E0F-94A9-424F-858A-3CA5B6DB21BB@gmail.com> References: <53E6C388-6DF1-42CF-A97D-98D248AB6CED@cisco.com> <74217E0F-94A9-424F-858A-3CA5B6DB21BB@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.8.12_GA_3803 (ZimbraWebClient - GC73 (Linux)/8.8.12_GA_3794) Thread-Topic: Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: zVGFUzRVuJVKbG9Fwxq/BAtnsJIPFA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 08:19:29 -0000 Hi, We deployed SRv6 as part of our new mobile network in Italy (Iliad Italy). = SRv6 with SRH is carrying commercial traffic of millions of subscribers for= several months, with line-rate performance and on several platforms and op= erating systems. We also started to extend our deployment to our national network in France = (Free & Free Mobile), we already have significant inter-AS SRv6 traffic. You can also read draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01 section= 2.3. Best regards, S=C3=A9bastien ----- Mail original ----- > De: "Satoru Matsushima" > =C3=80: "SPRING WG List" > Cc: "Zafar Ali, zali" , "Rob Shakir" > Envoy=C3=A9: Samedi 31 Ao=C3=BBt 2019 15:41:43 > Objet: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > Hi, >=20 > As part of the 5G rollout, Softbank have deployed a nationwide SRv6 netwo= rk > carrying commercial traffic with the linerate performance using Merchant > Silicon. >=20 > https://www.softbank.jp/corp/news/press/sbkk/2019/20190424_03/ >=20 > # You can read it in your language through some translation service, e.g,= google > translation. >=20 > draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status captured that use case. >=20 > Best regards, > --satoru >=20 >=20 >> 2019/08/31 6:05=E3=80=81Zafar Ali (zali) =E3=81=AE=E3=83= =A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >>=20 >> Dear Chairs and the WG: >> =20 >> The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation is imple= mented >> on 12 hardware platforms including Merchant Silicon. >> Multiple providers have deployed the SRv6 network programming solution a= nd its >> SRH encapsulation with line-rate performance carrying a significant amou= nt of >> commercial traffic. >> Several independent interoperability reports documenting successful >> interoperability of implementation from multiple vendors exist. >> Implementation, deployment, and interoperability status is publicly docu= mented >> inhttps://www.ietf.org/id/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status= -01.txt. >> =20 >> Most use-cases are expected to use very few SRv6 segments. >> =20 >> In some specific use-cases, one may desire to optimize the MTU usage fur= ther. >> The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation also sup= port for >> this Optimization, through the uSID network instruction. >> =20 >> I do not see the need for any new encapsulation work. >> =20 >> Thanks >> =20 >> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar >> =20 >> From: spring on behalf of Rob Shakir >> >> Date: Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 5:04 PM >> To: SPRING WG List >> Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. >> =20 >> Hi SPRING WG, >> =20 >> Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in >> NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and = IPv6 >> (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GR= E. >> =20 >> These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). >> =20 >> During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related= to the >> reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 SRv6+ / CRH -- >> =09=E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-0= 4 >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 uSID -- >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-s= rv6-usid-01 >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =20 >> During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6= -np-00 >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr= -03 >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =20 >> As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to unders= tand >> what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is imp= ortant >> that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requiremen= ts for >> a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective of >> operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that o= f the >> software/hardware implementation. >> =20 >> Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR o= ver the >> IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 forwarding performance and scaling requirements >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=09=E2=80=A2 e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, >> =09=09=E2=80=A2 number of SID required in max and average). For the latt= er, if possible using >> =09=09both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the numbe= r would >> =09=09typically be different (*). >> =09=09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =09=E2=80=A2 if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable >> =09=E2=80=A2 in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a dif= ferent solution is >> =09required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only = or for the >> =09long term. >> =09=E2=80=A2 >> =20 >> As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to= briefly >> describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit the >> deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of S= IDs >> which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould >> improve the deployments . >> =20 >> For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the = SPRING >> WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it directl= y to >> the chairs & AD (Martin). >> =20 >> This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As = a >> reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs viaspring-chairs@ietf.org and = ADs via >> spring-ads@ietf.org. >> =20 >> Thank you, >> -- Rob & Bruno >> =20 >> (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instr= uctions >> a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >=20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Sun Sep 1 06:48:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCA8120024; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 06:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Tk1IEm4dwHJ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 06:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cmccmta1.chinamobile.com (cmccmta1.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.79]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52DB120013; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 06:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.5]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app02-12002 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee25d6bcc0ae16-21508; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:47:57 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee25d6bcc0ae16-21508 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from cmcc (unknown[111.32.143.119]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr03-12003 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee35d6bcc0b6ef-3df7f; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:47:56 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee35d6bcc0b6ef-3df7f From: "Weiqiang Cheng" To: , "'SPRING WG'" Cc: References: <010101d55d89$fddbc980$f9935c80$@olddog.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <010101d55d89$fddbc980$f9935c80$@olddog.co.uk> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 21:47:55 +0800 Message-ID: <002201d560cb$dc0aa390$941feab0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdVdiduFOBuz6Q59TbWe7ccz7fQbiwDQADNQ Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: [spring] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogUmV2aWV3IG9mIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtc3ByaW5n?= =?gb2312?b?LW1wbHMtcGF0aC1zZWdtZW50LTAw?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 13:48:15 -0000 Hi Adrian, Thank you very much for the review and edits suggestion. We will update the draft based on the editorial comments in new version. About PHP, the Path Segment is supposed to be known by the egress node. = We will add a paragraph to describe the consideration on some other cases = such as egress is not MPLS-capable and wants to process the payload packet = (e.g., IP). B.R. Weiqiang Cheng -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]=20 =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2019=C4=EA8=D4=C228=C8=D5 18:19 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'SPRING WG' =B3=AD=CB=CD: draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment@ietf.org =D6=F7=CC=E2: Review of draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-00 Hi SPRING and document authors, Now we've adopted this draft, I thought I should give it a more careful reading. Here are some thoughts and nits. Best, Adrian =3D=3D=3D General thoughts =3D=3D=3D I think that the Abstract and Introduction need to make it clear (as the title does, and does Section 2) that this document only applies to SR-MPLS. I have suggested edits in line. --- Do we need to cover PHP? --- In the case of a centralised controller, there is a risk that a Path Segment will be applied for an egress that does not expect it. It will know what to do with the last segment identifier in the path list (i.e., pop it) and will then find the path segment label. The risk is that that label is somehow in the LFIB (if it is not, then it is unrecognised and the packet is simply dropped). Presumably, the important thing is for the centralised controller to not make this mistake, and there is nothing the egress can do to protect itself. The big risk is when a central controller is allocating Path Segment identifiers and the egress node is allocating labels from the same space. It is important to write something about this. Probably you can reduce the risk by splitting the label space. Maybe this all belongs in Section 4. =3D=3D=3D Edits =3D=3D=3D Abstract OLD A Segment Routing (SR) path is identified by an SR segment list, one or partial segments of the list cannot uniquely identify the SR path. Path identification is a pre-requisite for various use-cases such as performance measurement (PM) of an SR path. NEW A Segment Routing (SR) path is identified by an SR segment list. = Only the full segment list identifies the full end-to-end path, and one segment or a partial set of segments from the list cannot identify the SR path and distinguish it from other SR paths that may be partially congruent. But path identification is a pre-requisite for various use-cases such as performance measurement (PM) of an SR path. In SR for MPLS (SR-MPLS) the segment identifiers are stripped from the packet through label popping as the packet transits the network. This means that when a packet reaches the egress of the SR path, it is not possible to determine on which SR path it traversed the network. END OLD This document defines a new type of segment that is referred to as Path Segment, which is used to identify an SR path. When used, it is inserted at the ingress node of the SR path and immediately follows the last segment of the SR path. The Path Segment will not be popped off until it reaches the egress node of the SR path. NEW This document defines a new type of segment that is referred to as Path Segment, which is used to identify an SR path in an SR-MPLS network. When used, it is inserted at the ingress node of the SR path and immediately follows the last segment identifier in the segment list of the SR path. The Path Segment will not be popped off until it reaches the egress node of the SR path. END OLD Path Segment can be used by the egress node to implement path identification hence to support various use-cases including SR path PM, end-to-end 1+1 SR path protection and bidirectional SR paths correlation. NEW A Path Segment can be used by the egress node to implement path identification hence to support various use-cases including SR path PM, end-to-end 1+1 SR path protection, and bidirectional SR paths correlation. END --- 1. Introduction OLD Segment Routing (SR) [RFC8402] is a source routed forwarding method that allows to directly encode forwarding instructions (called segments) in each packet, hence it enables to steer traffic through a network without the per-flow states maintained on the transit nodes. Segment Routing can be instantiated on MPLS data plane or IPv6 data plane. The former is called SR-MPLS, the latter is called SRv6 [RFC8402]. SR-MPLS leverages the MPLS label stack to construct SR path, and SRv6 uses the a new IPv6 Extension Header (EH) called the IPv6 Segment Routing Header (SRH) [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header] to construct SR path. NEW Segment Routing (SR) [RFC8402] is a source routed forwarding method that allows to directly encode forwarding instructions (called segments) in each packet, hence it enables steering traffic through a network without the per-flow states maintained on the transit nodes. Segment Routing can be instantiated on an MPLS data plane or an IPv6 data plane. The former is called SR-MPLS [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-mpls], the latter is called SRv6 [RFC8402]. SR-MPLS leverages the MPLS label stack to construct SR paths. END OLD In an SR-MPLS network, when a packet is transmitted along an SR path, the labels in the MPLS label stack will be swapped or popped. So that no label or only the last label may be left in the MPLS label stack when the packet reaches the egress node. Thus, the egress node cannot determine from which SR path the packet comes. NEW In an SR-MPLS network, when a packet is transmitted along an SR path, the labels in the MPLS label stack will be swapped or popped. So that no label or only the last label may be left in the MPLS label stack when the packet reaches the egress node. Thus, the egress node cannot determine along which SR path the packet came. END However, to support use cases like end-to-end 1+1 path protection (Live-Live case), bidirectional path correlation or performance measurement (PM), the ability to implement path identification is a pre-requisite. >>> Would be good to give a reason for this pre-requisite. OLD Therefore, this document introduces a new segment that is referred to as Path Segment. A Path Segment is defined to uniquely identify an SR path in the context of the egress node. It is normally used by egress nodes for path identification or correlation. NEW Therefore, this document introduces a new segment that is referred to as the Path Segment. A Path Segment is defined to uniquely identify an SR path in an SR-MPLS network in the context of the egress node. It is normally used by egress nodes for path identification or correlation. END --- 1.1. Requirements Language The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "NOT RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in BCP14 [RFC2119][RFC8174] when, and only when, they appear in all capitals, as shown here. >>> Need a space between the references (to stop idnits complaining) --- 2. Path Segment A Path Segment is a single label that is assigned from the Segment Routing Local Block (SRLB) or Segment Routing Global Block (SRGB) of the egress node of an SR path. It means that the Path Segment is unique in the context of the egress node of the SR path. When Path >>> s/When/When a/ Segment is used, the Path Segment MUST be inserted at the ingress node and MUST immediately follow the last label of the SR path. The Path Segment may be used to identify an SR-MPLS Policy, its Candidate-Path (CP) or a SID List (SL) >>> s/(CP)/(CP),/ [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy] terminating on an egress node depending on the use-case. OLD The value of the TTL field of the Path Segment MUST be set to the same value of the last segment label of the SR path. If the Path Segment is the bottom label, the S bit MUST be set. NEW The value of the TTL field in the MPLS label stack entry containing the Path Segment MUST be set to the same value as the TTL of the last label stack entry for the last segment in the SR path. If the Path Segment is the bottom label, the S bit MUST be set. END +--------------------+ | ... | +--------------------+ | Label 1 | +--------------------+ | Label 2 | +--------------------+ | ... | +--------------------+ | Label n | +--------------------+ | Path Segment | +--------------------+ | ... | +--------------------+ >>> Shouldn't the last entry be +--------------------+ ~ Payload ~ +--------------------+ Figure 1: Label Stack with Path Segment --- 6. Path Segment for Bi-directional SR Path With the current SR architecture, an SR path is a unidirectional path. In some scenarios, for example, mobile backhaul transport network, there are requirements to support bidirectional path, and >>> s/path/paths/ the path is normally treated as a single entity and both directions of the path have the same fate, for example, failure in one direction will result in switching at both directions. MPLS supports this by introducing the concepts of co-routed bidirectional LSP and associated bidirectional LSP. With SR, to support bidirectional path, a straightforward way is to bind two >>> s/path/paths/ unidirectional SR paths to a single bidirectional path. Path segments can be used to correlate the two unidirectional SR paths at >>> s/segments/Segments/ both ends of the paths. --- 7. Path Segment for End-to-end Path Protection For end-to-end 1+1 path protection (i.e., Live-Live case), the egress node of an SR path needs to know the set of paths that constitute the primary and the secondary(s), in order to select the primary packet s/y(s)/ies/ for onward transmission, and to discard the packets from the secondary(s). s/y(s)/ies/ OLD It is obvious that this group can be instantiated in the network by an SDN controller. NEW It is obvious that this group can be instantiated in the network by an SDN controller and that the Path Segment achieves the desired function. END --- From nobody Sun Sep 1 07:20:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F8D120058 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:20:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_DNS_FOR_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9iZ0ISvGjgSM for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x435.google.com (mail-wr1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93D0D120013 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x435.google.com with SMTP id t16so11417158wra.6 for ; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 07:20:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:date:subject:in-reply-to:to:references; bh=SCcK9B41vRkl4JJf1SWfMo456dKK5KIG7JCjuNCB99c=; b=Bu+C3x1iTM5CHS/f1BhVk+VvzjBY3ATEdkV8V8ExXhng/1DKPPsDZIOOSDBFc5QzeL GH3jzezZkvDgHRqqha48llIrCtGvlJHMAPlVwfMoqshpUsysZ4zHZiVPa/YwXNAvtooY FFAYtgvhu3hkQJIMw4qZyKQQILpCdG4KP58PTGp3dDFQK7uIkC/5mHWppY7/JhWs9EvI B4ND6YJrMTDNDxuAB2h0jEm7rpwFuP9W0FHsiKt17L0cYnwPNHDO2Tlu6P7jx0+NbZEn ZzpRBuSRt5ifi0NOg44RHT2F+9MmdAzOQWvAy1njONlz8o+VQLp9ERnqXKHEGO8A2aXF 6RlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:date:subject :in-reply-to:to:references; bh=SCcK9B41vRkl4JJf1SWfMo456dKK5KIG7JCjuNCB99c=; b=TW3wEfkET6fTNcJHoyKkpGwsk7fdH5rlIz0CQAVN1EQePGos5ke6cvH/q4lb5KiKZZ UuqtpVsCZk1188vDE7oAy16SZzM2cltjT+27rCS2pJpjvKcvqJep2zt4DrDFEgWYlKni Guler0X0nHZcvOG1riiG+ieOC3MezDntH1PmgPA2hG3Ql7eNWtVHG7IKTREomc/efXba C8f2FCquyHnNj9H2lgsqN9L/2mdc6MbVnOOpqiHk/aVSNxmmBQ78WQ4Qu4YrBJAhnAE9 PB0X4SUbcerseS7k3xH2Sfn3qK7a/3NhMx5pnopNNHCZtNdy3gkssICgHORe3ySX4QHV l5Ag== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXqihWuGyprnU5jUpTzLp9HEPsXwegJeC0SXl7r9zSNyGTubbSd 1Fm2aRpPnX8ieRaxfc+TJlRf46sNJ8x3LtrEHhSNmFaXQbORKDaouqpfrBzmmgy5bofjJG2Eu6q NcEfysqDe93b2SgxXqyMWNges3bxWrmZgzBVKDrYfE2xAnqd1r8uLsGvZVbaFUw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxjcv2X0hzGCOru5QnjilPkOwuV4g5vw9TiNhZMgH2EsczKCtyjxSbNAEry5rB4KLVlGkU05A== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:448a:: with SMTP id j10mr530171wrq.82.1567347627308; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 07:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from macpro.fritz.box (p57A0764A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [87.160.118.74]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n14sm40741820wra.75.2019.09.01.07.20.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Sep 2019 07:20:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Dirk Steinberg Message-Id: <9A655231-45C5-4852-831E-72EC33151F03@lapishills.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1461A4D5-9B86-4FB4-8144-52DF748BC798" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 16:20:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <53E6C388-6DF1-42CF-A97D-98D248AB6CED@cisco.com> To: SPRING WG List , Rob Shakir References: <53E6C388-6DF1-42CF-A97D-98D248AB6CED@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 14:20:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1461A4D5-9B86-4FB4-8144-52DF748BC798 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, the introduction of SRv6 as alternate data plane in addition to MPLS has been an important step in SPRING, providing an encapsulation for SPRING traffic that is native to IPv6. The question about the necessity of work on alternate encapsulations was fueled by concerns about encapsulation overhead when using=20 full 128 bit SIDs in the SRv6 SRH. Through the introduction of the uSID network instruction in SRv6 these concerns are now properly addressed and SRv6 with uSID can now also be deployed in a very MTU-efficient manner.=20 Therefore I do not see a necessity for any additional encapsulations. Cheers Dirk=20 > Am 31.08.2019 um 06:05 schrieb Zafar Ali (zali) : >=20 > Dear Chairs and the WG:=20 > =20 > The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation is = implemented on 12 hardware platforms including Merchant Silicon. > Multiple providers have deployed the SRv6 network programming solution = and its SRH encapsulation with line-rate performance carrying a = significant amount of commercial traffic. > Several independent interoperability reports documenting successful = interoperability of implementation from multiple vendors exist. > Implementation, deployment, and interoperability status is publicly = documented in = https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01.= txt = . > =20 > Most use-cases are expected to use very few SRv6 segments. > =20 > In some specific use-cases, one may desire to optimize the MTU usage = further. > The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation also = support for this Optimization, through the uSID network instruction. > =20 > I do not see the need for any new encapsulation work. > =20 > Thanks > =20 > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20 > =20 > From: spring > on behalf of Rob Shakir = > > Date: Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 5:04 PM > To: SPRING WG List > > Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > =20 > Hi SPRING WG, > =20 > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing = in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) = and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in = UDP or GRE. > =20 > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > =20 > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were = related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > =20 > SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 = > =20 > =20 > uSID -- > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-u= sid-01 = =20 > =20 > =20 > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > =20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 = =20 > =20 > =20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 = =20 > =20 > =20 > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to = understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we = think it is important that the WG should first get to a common = understanding on the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a = smaller SID - both from the perspective of operators that are looking to = deploy these technologies, and from that of the software/hardware = implementation. > =20 > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR = over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > =20 > use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > =20 > =20 > forwarding performance and scaling requirements > =20 > =20 > e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, > number of SID required in max and average). For the latter, if = possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as = the number would typically be different (*). > =20 > =20 > if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable > in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a different = solution is required and whether this solution is needed for the short = term only or for the long term. > =20 > =20 > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community = to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which = limit the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the = number of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of = shorter SIDs would improve the deployments . > =20 > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to = the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send = it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > =20 > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. = As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via = spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via = spring-ads@ietf.org .=20 > =20 > Thank you, > -- Rob & Bruno > =20 > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two = instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be = required. > =20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring = --Apple-Mail=_1461A4D5-9B86-4FB4-8144-52DF748BC798 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi,

the = introduction of SRv6 as alternate data plane in addition to = MPLS
has been an important step in SPRING, = providing an encapsulation
for SPRING traffic that = is native to IPv6.

The question about the necessity of work on alternate = encapsulations
was fueled by concerns about = encapsulation overhead when using 
full 128 = bit SIDs in the SRv6 SRH.

Through the introduction of the uSID network instruction in = SRv6
these concerns are now properly addressed and = SRv6 with uSID
can now also be deployed in a very = MTU-efficient manner. 

Therefore I do not see a necessity for any additional = encapsulations.

Cheers
Dirk 
Am = 31.08.2019 um 06:05 schrieb Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>:
Dear = Chairs and the WG: 
 
The SRv6 = network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation is implemented on = 12 hardware platforms including Merchant Silicon.
Multiple = providers have deployed the SRv6 network programming solution and its = SRH encapsulation with line-rate performance carrying a significant = amount of commercial traffic.
Several independent interoperability = reports documenting successful interoperability of implementation from = multiple vendors exist.
Implementation, deployment, and interoperability status is = publicly documented in https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment= -status-01.txt.
 
Most use-cases are expected to use very few SRv6 = segments.
 
In some specific use-cases, one may desire to optimize the = MTU usage further.
The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH = encapsulation also support for this Optimization, through the uSID = network instruction.
 
I do not see the need for any new encapsulation work.
 
Thanks
 
Regards = =E2=80=A6 Zafar 
 
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = on behalf of Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2019 = at 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond = SRv6.
 
Hi SPRING WG,
 
Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet = Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS = (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported = over IP in UDP or GRE.
 
These encapsulations are past WG last = call (in IESG or RFC Editor).
 
During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF = 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the = SID for IPv6 dataplane:
 
During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been = proposed:
As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the = WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, = we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common = understanding on the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a = smaller SID - both from the perspective of operators that are looking to = deploy these technologies, and from that of the software/hardware = implementation.
Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators = interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce = their:
As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING = community to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are = seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular = limitations related to the number of SIDs which can be pushed and = forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would improve the = deployments .
For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post = this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, = please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).
 
This call for information will run for four weeks, up to = 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. 
 
Thank you,
-- Rob & Bruno
 
(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can = encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID = may be required.
 
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

= --Apple-Mail=_1461A4D5-9B86-4FB4-8144-52DF748BC798-- From nobody Sun Sep 1 08:03:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB566120071 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 08:03:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xNQ7EKRDdkRD for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 003AE12004A for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id b2so9566207qtq.5 for ; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=z6MtJoG8rLSM3d7zz/gDttgzuv/V2N8IPKbPMyFiVpc=; b=YPp7ZXuCRXeS/pp4dsKxqYmSUiMeqL6W71shKTj2SsafZ6q6akRFdqSCeb2lYHYAEH ExMGgdlqVx14RbZ2zhW1OHObzUcqysQzeZwfATqg+qXTIO7wlt5ZyKYBG0KDzc3BLlR8 tjkkMD6ILs3xho3wrDEvYEfb/SWm9iBhITFlylumAFN1UqZEc3aoFK9wi6GbYXeTWTcq qX1XyjX+GURlLkf6G7Pj57mRRRrsueTK2Vig1oFtBWIbqAqQwpvXKr8t4XjOZi+zkjyT MKhF5oG2MAW7IXLMr1hN6DRZ9nvceBes/px3vycOcVTbRGDcvbqYX6MVI6a1LTd/wv7F gTfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=z6MtJoG8rLSM3d7zz/gDttgzuv/V2N8IPKbPMyFiVpc=; b=VgYilONFDOOYAKoUwvmzmFuBMBhNFJJ3f8AFj3SjPDGwgxIl2AhRg88hYsotrd0zpL 6DUNL/XvW6wyvROe03v9iPX62Ud4K5u9zqJJvCh0xtU1fPcOA0AO6/ZwqpHD6wU/5XaM NE4lJLTqWzXU2QFv6u9MkmhFUFTc4m9no/4VxoUGWIyM3r62kWELqbTjzlGv8jtpKu2Y IV1uM12xsF3hosvLcugVTsNjmsrucGEwc8WD0k+nJp5dgsmx/6YMcAMucRFmTKvSvWjX 8YDnLl/ff/nydsEIluc0GRyjHeGoO+RxUUkvo3ROggSJDASY+SU+fPa/aZJExC/2HgJU kaMw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUodmvVRvZDwOBjLI02VdGPjUgkBtw0ZjtvD5oTAlZYtyeP3Mnz n6wuB9l+Qwuj6Yaw/IllxYd+CmEhw0qAIFND5t2O2BBLFaY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwV0ms5b0aHNdpdJkszIfXdh+jf09cHSFV2UJ7/O3iPi5kLgYfW4aXMPfLej0+M4JaPRZxu0Toj4O73cSpyE7s= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7959:: with SMTP id r25mr24559059qtt.208.1567350209765; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 08:03:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 17:03:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007dfc8e05917f286e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 15:03:35 -0000 --0000000000007dfc8e05917f286e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ron, > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router hops I can reach most of my often visited destinations in the open Internet anywhere in the world. With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (or for that matter SR-MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administrative control. Therefor I do question the necessity to have such deep/long list of segments for any practical network application. Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv6 verbatim as an analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that is completely wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing architecture and its abilities. In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RESV-PATH msg signalling such that forwarding is using locally upstream assigned labels distributed by return RSVP-RESV msg. I would never suggest to do same with SR. The biggest advantage of SR (outside of its network programmability concept) is in the ability to encode very selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding just flows natively using IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS label. So proper use of SR does require wise selection of such anchor points in the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for it. Much smarter algorithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR technology in any network especially in cases where the IGP topology is very dense and complex. Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deployments across biggest global networks I can state that vast majority of true path steering can be easily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly selected anchor nodes across their domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters and you get max 5. So even if some individual operators would like to use 8, 12 or maybe 16 segments in their packets I do not see this as fundamentally sufficient justification to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding proposal. As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for real technical justifications for such deep segment stacks. Note that we are at the end of 4 week pool window and there was none sent to the list so far. Kind regards, Robert. On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Rob, > > > > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: > > > > - Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > - Operational Simplicity > - SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 > > > > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for > implementations to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive > overhead bandwidth. > > > > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisf= y > these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 > would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH > at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. > > > > Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required > to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is > close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equal= ly > mature and should be given equal consideration. > > > > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. > > > > Operational Simplicity > > ----------------------------- > > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely > interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RF= C > 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational > complexity. The following are architectural quirks of > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header: > > > > - The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. > Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the > least-cost path from source to destination > - The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. > - The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and > how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address cont= ains > one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one > particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another > locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. > > > > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural > quirks. For example: > > > > - Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers > - An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > - IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next > Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even thou= gh > the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload. > > > > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For > example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to exami= ne > the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has > been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. > > > > Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires > network operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a > particular way to make routing work. > > > > SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. > Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly > complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2= =80=99s > just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. > > > > Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation o= f > RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won= =E2=80=99t > need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when > stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental a= s > RFC 8200. > > > > > = Thanks, > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in > NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP o= r > GRE. > > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related > to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > - SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 > > - uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-sr= v6-usid-01 > > > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 > > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think > it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on > the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from > the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, > and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > - use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > - forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > > - e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in > max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-b= it SIDs > and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be dif= ferent > (*). > > > - if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only o= r for > the long term. > > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to > briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limi= t > the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number o= f > SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SI= Ds > would improve the deployments . > > > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the > SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it > directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a > reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and > ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. > > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000007dfc8e05917f286e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ron,

> SR customers have stated= a firm requirement to support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments.=C2= =A0=C2=A0

Let me make an observation that with= 8 to 12 router hops I can reach most of my often visited destinations in t= he open Internet anywhere in the=C2=A0world.=C2=A0

With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (or for that matter SR-= MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administrative control.=C2=A0

Therefor I do question the necessity to have such de= ep/long list of segments for any practical network application.=C2=A0
=

Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv6 v= erbatim as an analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that is = completely wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing architec= ture and its abilities.=C2=A0

In RSVP-TE you nail = down the path with hop by hop RESV-PATH msg signalling such that forwarding= is using locally upstream assigned labels distributed by return RSVP-RESV = msg.=C2=A0

I would never suggest to do same with S= R. The biggest advantage of SR (outside of its network programmability conc= ept) is in the ability to encode very selected anchor node or nodes to whic= h forwarding just flows natively using IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS lab= el.=C2=A0

So proper use of SR does require wise se= lection of such anchor points in the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the b= est tool for it. Much smarter algorithm is required to engineer your traffi= c using SR technology in any network especially in cases where the IGP topo= logy is very dense and complex.=C2=A0

Based on my = personal experience with MPLS-TE deployments across biggest global networks= I=C2=A0 can state that vast majority of true path steering can be easily a= ccomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly selected anchor nodes across their = domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters and you get max= 5.=C2=A0

So even if some individual operators= would like to use 8, 12 or maybe 16 segments in their packets I do not see= this as fundamentally sufficient justification to proceed with yet one mor= e SRv6 encoding proposal.=C2=A0

As both Rob & = Bruno asked I will be looking for real technical justifications for such de= ep segment stacks. Note that we are at the end of 4 week pool window and th= ere was none sent to the list so far.=C2=A0

Kind r= egards,
Robert.


On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34= PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Rob,

=C2=A0

The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6= +:

=C2=A0

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finis= h before SRv6

=C2=A0

Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists

----------------------------------------------------=

=C2=A0

SR customers have stated a firm requirement to suppo= rt SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirem= ent for implementations to forward at line speed =C2=A0and without consumin= g excessive overhead bandwidth.

=C2=A0

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-= header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path w= ith 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could proc= ess such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.

=C2=A0

Therefore, one of the four solutions =C2=A0that you = mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-se= gment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions men= tioned below are equally mature and should be given equal consideration.

=C2=A0

The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-m= irsky.

=C2=A0

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------

Network operators strive for operational simplicity.= By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4= 291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce opera= tional complexity. The following are architectural quirks of =C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:

=C2=A0

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routi= ng. Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the = least-cost path from source to destination
  • The = SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
    • =
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid a= nd how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contai= ns one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, while if the IPv6 destination ad= dress contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally= invalid.

=C2=A0

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =C2=A0pro= mises more architectural quirks. For example:

=C2=A0

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers=
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing= headers
  • IPv6 packets are no longer self-descri= bing. For example, the Next Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No= Next Header, even though the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload.

=C2=A0

Other emerging drafts promise still more architectur= al quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations = need to examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because= the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information.

=C2=A0

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address space and number th= eir networks in a particular way to make routing work.

=C2=A0

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work=

-----------------------= ---------------------------------

SRv6+ =C2=A0has been implemented on LINUX and is bei= ng implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specif= ication is fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM = document. It=E2=80=99s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.

=C2=A0

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a st= rict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the wo= rking group, they won=E2=80=99t need to overcome the objections that are in= evitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Beha= lf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi SPRING WG,

= =C2=A0

Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Pa= cket Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (= SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

= =C2=A0

These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or R= FC Editor).

= =C2=A0

During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentati= ons were related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane= :<= /p>

= =C2=A0

During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been pr= oposed:

= =C2=A0

As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for = the WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, = we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

= =C2=A0

Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators in= terested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:<= span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">

  • use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, e= xplicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding performance and sca= ling requirements
    • e.g., (number of nodes, networ= k diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the latter, if = possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the= number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SRv6 approach = is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a d= ifferent solution is required and whether this solution is needed for the s= hort term only or for the long term.

= =C2=A0

As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPR= ING community to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are se= eing which limit the deployment of SRv6=C2=A0 In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .=

= =C2=A0

For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please p= ost this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, pl= ease send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

= =C2=A0

This call for information will run for four weeks, up to= 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@= ietf.org.=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0

Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno

= =C2=A0

(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can = encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may = be required.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 17:21:20 -0000 --0000000000002be2d005918115bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 4:34 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Rob, > > > > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: > > > > - Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > - Operational Simplicity > - SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 > > > > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for > implementations to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive > overhead bandwidth. > > > > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisf= y > these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 > would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH > at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. > Hi Ron, It's hard to say whether or not SRH satisfies the requirements without first having quantified requirements. For instance, how much header overhead does it take before it's considered prohibitive? The 128 byte SRH would be one quantified requirement. Is this rooted in some inherent implementation constraint? My understanding is that many devices have a parsing buffer of some fixed size for processing packet headers. If a packet's headers of interest don't fit into buffer that's a problem. 128 and 256 bytes seem to be common sizes. But, this padding buffer is for all headers (e.g. Ethernet, IPv6, SRH, etc.). So an SRH with just 5 SIDs would overflow a 128 byte parsing buffer. Tom > > Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required > to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is > close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equal= ly > mature and should be given equal consideration. > > > > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. > > > > Operational Simplicity > > ----------------------------- > > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely > interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RF= C > 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational > complexity. The following are architectural quirks of > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header: > > > > - The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. > Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the > least-cost path from source to destination > - The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. > - The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and > how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address cont= ains > one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one > particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another > locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. > > > > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural > quirks. For example: > > > > - Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers > - An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > - IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next > Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even thou= gh > the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload. > > > > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For > example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to exami= ne > the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has > been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. > > > > Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires > network operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a > particular way to make routing work. > > > > SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. > Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly > complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2= =80=99s > just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. > > > > Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation o= f > RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won= =E2=80=99t > need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when > stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental a= s > RFC 8200. > > > > > = Thanks, > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in > NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP o= r > GRE. > > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related > to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > - SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 > > - uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-sr= v6-usid-01 > > > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 > > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think > it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on > the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from > the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, > and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > - use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > - forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > > - e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in > max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-b= it SIDs > and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be dif= ferent > (*). > > > - if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only o= r for > the long term. > > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to > briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limi= t > the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number o= f > SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SI= Ds > would improve the deployments . > > > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the > SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it > directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a > reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and > ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. > > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000002be2d005918115bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Aug 31, 2019, 4:34 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica= =3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf= .org> wrote:

Rob,

=C2=A0

The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6= +:

=C2=A0

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operationa= l Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6<= u>

=C2=A0

Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists

----------------------------------------------------=

=C2=A0

SR customers have stated a firm requirement to suppo= rt SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirem= ent for implementations to forward at line speed =C2=A0and without consumin= g excessive overhead bandwidth.

=C2=A0

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-= header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path w= ith 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could proc= ess such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.

<= /div>

Hi Ron,

It's hard to say whether or no= t SRH satisfies the requirements without first having quantified requiremen= ts. For instance, how much header overhead does it take before it's con= sidered prohibitive?

The= 128 byte SRH would be one quantified requirement. Is this rooted in some i= nherent implementation constraint? My understanding is that many devices ha= ve a parsing buffer of some fixed size for processing packet headers. If a = packet's headers of interest don't fit into buffer that's a pro= blem. 128 and 256 bytes seem to be common sizes. But, this padding buffer i= s for all headers (e.g. Ethernet, IPv6, SRH, etc.). So an SRH with just 5 S= IDs would overflow a 128 byte parsing buffer.

Tom

=C2=A0

Therefore, one of the four solutions =C2=A0that you = mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-se= gment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions men= tioned below are equally mature and should be given equal consideration.

=C2=A0

The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID,= draft-li and draft-mirsky.

=C2=A0

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------

Network operators strive for operational simplicity.= By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4= 291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce opera= tional complexity. The following are architectural quirks of =C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:

=C2=A0

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. The= refore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-c= ost path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IP= v6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
  • The IPv6 de= stination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it is processe= d. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one locally instan= tiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, while if the IPv6 destination ad= dress contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally= invalid.

=C2=A0

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =C2=A0pro= mises more architectural quirks. For example:

=C2=A0

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers=
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
  • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, th= e Next Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even th= ough the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload.

=C2=A0

Other emerging drafts promise still more architectur= al quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations = need to examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because= the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information.

=C2=A0

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address space and number th= eir networks in a particular way to make routing work.

=C2=A0

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work=

---------------------= -----------------------------------

SRv6+ =C2=A0has been implemented on LINUX and is bei= ng implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specif= ication is fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM = document. It=E2=80=99s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.

=C2=A0

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a st= rict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the wo= rking group, they won=E2=80=99t need to overcome the objections that are in= evitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org= > On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi SPRING WG,

=C2=A0

Over the last 5+ years, the IETF ha= s developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routin= g for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

=C2=A0

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

=C2=A0

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

=C2=A0

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

=C2=A0

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

=C2=A0

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@= ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ipv6
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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 18:59:31 -0000 --_000_BL0PR05MB5458A73CB4E7DF390DE5E9EBAEBF0BL0PR05MB5458namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I can only repeat what my customers' requirements. They have asked for 8-12= SIDs in SR-MPLS and SRv6 and SRv6+. We didn't question that requirement for SR-MPLS. Why should things be any d= ifferent for SRv6 or SRv6+? Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 11:03 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG List ; 6man@i= etf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Dear Ron, > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that cont= ain 8 to 12 segments. Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router hops I can reach most o= f my often visited destinations in the open Internet anywhere in the world. With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (or for that matter SR-MPLS)= is applicable to networks under same administrative control. Therefor I do question the necessity to have such deep/long list of segment= s for any practical network application. Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv6 verbatim as an analog= y to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that is completely wrong way= to think about it in light of segment routing architecture and its abiliti= es. In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RESV-PATH msg signalling = such that forwarding is using locally upstream assigned labels distributed = by return RSVP-RESV msg. I would never suggest to do same with SR. The biggest advantage of SR (outs= ide of its network programmability concept) is in the ability to encode ver= y selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding just flows natively usi= ng IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS label. So proper use of SR does require wise selection of such anchor points in th= e network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for it. Much smarter algor= ithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR technology in any networ= k especially in cases where the IGP topology is very dense and complex. Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deployments across biggest glo= bal networks I can state that vast majority of true path steering can be e= asily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly selected anchor nodes across= their domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters and you = get max 5. So even if some individual operators would like to use 8, 12 or maybe 16 se= gments in their packets I do not see this as fundamentally sufficient justi= fication to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding proposal. As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for real technical justificatio= ns for such deep segment stacks. Note that we are at the end of 4 week pool= window and there was none sent to the list so far. Kind regards, Robert. On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Rob, The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: * Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists * Operational Simplicity * SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists ---------------------------------------------------- SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that contai= n 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implementations= to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive overhead bandwid= th. SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy = these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 wo= uld require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at = line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required to= make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is clos= e to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mat= ure and should be given equal consideration. The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. Operational Simplicity ----------------------------- Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely interpretin= g (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 = introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The = following are architectural quirks of draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-head= er: * The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. = Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the leas= t-cost path from source to destination * The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. * The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and h= ow it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains o= ne locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular= way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instan= tiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural qui= rks. For example: * Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers * An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers * IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Hea= der Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the S= RH is followed by Ethernet payload. Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For example,= in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH= even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overl= oaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires net= work operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a parti= cular way to make routing work. SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work -------------------------------------------------------- SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Imp= lementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. = For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It's just IPv6 and= IPv6 OAM just works. Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of = RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won't= need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stret= ching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8= 200. = Thanks, = Ron From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf..org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BL0PR05MB5458A73CB4E7DF390DE5E9EBAEBF0BL0PR05MB5458namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

I can only repeat what my customers’ requireme= nts. They have asked for 8-12 SIDs in SR-MPLS and SRv6 and SRv6+.<= /o:p>

 

We didn’t question that requirement for SR-MPL= S. Why should things be any different for SRv6 or SRv6+?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;           Ron

 

 

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 11:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@i= etf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Dear Ron,

 

> SR customers have stated a firm requirement to = support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments.  

 

Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router = hops I can reach most of my often visited destinations in the open Internet= anywhere in the world. 

 

With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (or f= or that matter SR-MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administrative= control. 

 

Therefor I do question the necessity to have such de= ep/long list of segments for any practical network application. <= /o:p>

 

Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv= 6 verbatim as an analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that = is completely wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing archi= tecture and its abilities. 

 

In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RE= SV-PATH msg signalling such that forwarding is using locally upstream assig= ned labels distributed by return RSVP-RESV msg. 

 

I would never suggest to do same with SR. The bigges= t advantage of SR (outside of its network programmability concept) is in th= e ability to encode very selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding = just flows natively using IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS label. 

 

So proper use of SR does require wise selection of s= uch anchor points in the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for= it. Much smarter algorithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR t= echnology in any network especially in cases where the IGP topology is very dense and complex. 

 

Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deploym= ents across biggest global networks I  can state that vast majority of= true path steering can be easily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly = selected anchor nodes across their domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters and you get max 5. <= o:p>

 

So even if some individual operators would like to u= se 8, 12 or maybe 16 segments in their packets I do not see this as fundame= ntally sufficient justification to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding = proposal. 

 

As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for = real technical justifications for such deep segment stacks. Note that we ar= e at the end of 4 week pool window and there was none sent to the list so f= ar. 

 

Kind regards,

Robert.

 

 

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica <rbon= ica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.i= etf.org> wrote:

Rob,

 

The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+:

 

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6

 

Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists

----------------------------------------------------

 

SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths th= at contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implem= entations to forward at line speed  and without consuming excessive overhead bandwidth.

 

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot= satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments= , SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth o= verhead would be prohibitive.

 

Therefore, one of the four solutions  that you mention below = is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-= header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mature and should be given equal con= sideration.

 

The four solutions are SRv6+, u= SID, draft-li and draft-mirsky.

 

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------

Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely in= terpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 82= 00, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The following are architectural qui= rks of  draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:

 

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Theref= ore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost= path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it = is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one loc= ally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, = while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally inva= lid.

 

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming  promises more arc= hitectural quirks. For example:

 

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
  • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Fi= eld in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is = followed by Ethernet payload.

 

Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For= example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examin= e the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as = routing information.

 

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid req= uires network operators to obtain address space and number their networks i= n a particular way to make routing work.

 

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work

--------------------------------------------------------

SRv6+  has been implemented on LINUX and is being impleme= nted on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is= fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It’s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just work= s.

 

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict inter= pretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working grou= p, they won’t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a sp= ecification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200.

 

            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;  Thanks,

           =             &nb= sp;            =             &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;      Ron

 

 

 

 <= /p>

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IET= F has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Ro= uting for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

 

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.

    •  

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

     

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

     

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org= and ADs via spring-ads@= ietf.org. 

     

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno

     

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/spring

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_BL0PR05MB5458A73CB4E7DF390DE5E9EBAEBF0BL0PR05MB5458namp_-- From nobody Sun Sep 1 12:18:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4661200BA for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 12:18:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dt9ZIdNGGjJ5 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 12:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2BFF12007C for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id i78so9311725qke.11 for ; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 12:18:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EA61h2TXWNwt86GbqOfYtesDMEEEDy3jbRnUr+HHF38=; b=OUZr1VYDb8y58IjdLDw+tSABxZVi0YAzD4g4+OFqd5wdBMmNmQ0VBYlZu+CdFo7CfF EcQoOf3PaVA2UOagraUT4UpJXbKmt2bD9KCT755FyHUErY/feeQCKYOlnEr7YDVqvSLs /j2f2NtZfwIfeMasKFT2djaMRCgwPrINjf71fckXl5L1ymcjuXr4uFufDjb1wKyZh1nK GlFFptwN9R5Dyzssv0c6whaYjymrfPIcPaHPlBa4WWqM6JpRasjig4sjjGfnHq1OCKyR YoKWpuVn47YR0t3cxppK8xoLoCWn1D3ahARAPMigQIMbxxbi4Il40Yw90TFo+ZPHH55d yDaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EA61h2TXWNwt86GbqOfYtesDMEEEDy3jbRnUr+HHF38=; b=fBWDe1yEt9PTfR1zj+AkQO6wYmZpEVzN8sF6nP92DjkbSMz1m2XsMDOtTSGlvgLIpl 5Zb8XOp+f72mW8UW5AwgcdXX0WrgZlhFPDewSeuD1Go0apPru39bqHaAUqWmHSH/ue3c z89wOl4KaPglCbeOZJTFpLTe2sensMYlH+5DndSMkDHseY5URDvoJthRM62Jf5mpbehf IE+Fpk4da7OsYqqko7Tp6zZondP5O2beGwLlUKJknvcKlEPSMDIGte46jwrBw4ucEv1o SwhXLgMdsumEz+r208/umRmRPpOlQt8noy5/hOeAXaS/zPABnt3rQYedXtJj1IrcmjB0 gFWw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUwN1sSvTsWWynuLhL0XHKVm2uv0Ojgy3lE139tDRzP1B2zhJnL eCIcO2pjA+MY3+dO2Nj+Ca+NZ/bWHyKtfe1GG7CopA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzrYJ4MOVm8RF5ne+vvzZNI74wVve/rszS4eroz3boiVABNgplajy9dAOjwTtcg38Ht82fAWHESKgIydL1Ty+8= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6144:: with SMTP id v65mr8663820qkb.465.1567365502521; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 12:18:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 21:18:13 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002e912059182b88b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 19:18:29 -0000 --00000000000002e912059182b88b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, The SR architecture is common to SR-MPLS and SRv6 as far as path engineering is concerned ie. number of SIDs to impose. I explained one pretty common misconception of how some people treat SR as 1:1 replacement of RSVP-TE. In fact there may even float around some slides or white papers stating so - but if anything they are fundamentally incorrect. So here in SPRING you either present valid and convincing to WG technical explanation why in specific network you see a need for 8-12+ SIDs or that point simply can not be used as "push" argument for CRH ;). . On the other hand you know that the most difficult to introduce any new technology is not even respining an ASIC .. it is education and assistance to your customers to make sure new technology is really deployed in the right way. Cheers, Robert. PS. Talking in the context of SRv6 architecture to one of the most common of the shelf forwarding vendor I was told their hardware reads 256 bytes of the packet header for flexible processing. So with that I am even more assured that the bottleneck in line rate packet processing even with your stated size of SRH is rather limited to legacy hardware which will happen all the time and is normal when someone defines new data plane enhancements. After all no one obsoletes SR-MPLS - it can be used as smooth transition path to SRv6. On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > I can only repeat what my customers=E2=80=99 requirements. They have aske= d for > 8-12 SIDs in SR-MPLS and SRv6 and SRv6+. > > > > We didn=E2=80=99t question that requirement for SR-MPLS. Why should thing= s be any > different for SRv6 or SRv6+? > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Sunday, September 1, 2019 11:03 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG List ; > 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. > > > > Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router hops I can reach most > of my often visited destinations in the open Internet anywhere in > the world. > > > > With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (or for that matter > SR-MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administrative control. > > > > Therefor I do question the necessity to have such deep/long list of > segments for any practical network application. > > > > Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv6 verbatim as an > analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that is completely > wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing architecture and > its abilities. > > > > In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RESV-PATH msg signallin= g > such that forwarding is using locally upstream assigned labels distribute= d > by return RSVP-RESV msg. > > > > I would never suggest to do same with SR. The biggest advantage of SR > (outside of its network programmability concept) is in the ability to > encode very selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding just flows > natively using IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS label. > > > > So proper use of SR does require wise selection of such anchor points in > the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for it. Much smarter > algorithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR technology in any > network especially in cases where the IGP topology is very dense and > complex. > > > > Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deployments across biggest > global networks I can state that vast majority of true path steering can > be easily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly selected anchor nodes > across their domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters > and you get max 5. > > > > So even if some individual operators would like to use 8, 12 or maybe 16 > segments in their packets I do not see this as fundamentally sufficient > justification to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding proposal. > > > > As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for real technical > justifications for such deep segment stacks. Note that we are at the end = of > 4 week pool window and there was none sent to the list so far. > > > > Kind regards, > > Robert. > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Rob, > > > > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: > > > > - Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > - Operational Simplicity > - SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 > > > > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for > implementations to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive > overhead bandwidth. > > > > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisf= y > these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 > would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH > at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. > > > > Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required > to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is > close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equal= ly > mature and should be given equal consideration. > > > > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. > > > > Operational Simplicity > > ----------------------------- > > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely > interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RF= C > 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational > complexity. The following are architectural quirks of > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header: > > > > - The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. > Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the > least-cost path from source to destination > - The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. > - The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and > how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address cont= ains > one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one > particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another > locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. > > > > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural > quirks. For example: > > > > - Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers > - An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > - IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next > Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even thou= gh > the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload. > > > > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For > example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to exami= ne > the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has > been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. > > > > Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires > network operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a > particular way to make routing work. > > > > SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. > Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly > complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2= =80=99s > just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. > > > > Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation o= f > RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won= =E2=80=99t > need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when > stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental a= s > RFC 8200. > > > > > = Thanks, > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in > NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP o= r > GRE. > > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related > to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > - SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 > > - uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-sr= v6-usid-01 > > > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > - https://tools.ietf..org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 > > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think > it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on > the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from > the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, > and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > - use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > - forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > > - e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in > max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-b= it SIDs > and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be dif= ferent > (*). > > > - if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only o= r for > the long term. > > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to > briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limi= t > the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number o= f > SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SI= Ds > would improve the deployments . > > > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the > SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it > directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a > reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and > ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. > > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > --00000000000002e912059182b88b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

The SR archite= cture is common to SR-MPLS and SRv6 as far as path engineering is concerned= ie. number of SIDs to impose.=C2=A0

I explained o= ne pretty common misconception of how some people treat SR as 1:1 replaceme= nt of RSVP-TE. In fact there may even float around some slides or white pap= ers stating so - but if anything they are fundamentally incorrect.=C2=A0

So here in SPRING you either present valid and convi= ncing to WG technical explanation why in specific network you see a need fo= r 8-12+ SIDs or that point simply can not be used as "push" argum= ent for CRH ;). .=C2=A0

On the other hand you know= that the most difficult to introduce any new technology is not even respin= ing an ASIC .. it is education and assistance to your customers to make sur= e new technology is really deployed in the right way.=C2=A0

<= /div>
Cheers,
Robert.

PS. Talking in= the context of SRv6 architecture to one of the most common of the shelf fo= rwarding vendor I was told their hardware reads 256 bytes of the packet hea= der for flexible processing. So with that I am even more assured that the b= ottleneck in line rate packet processing even with your stated size of SRH = is rather limited to legacy hardware which will happen all the time and is = normal when someone defines new data plane enhancements. After all no one o= bsoletes SR-MPLS - it can be used as smooth transition path to SRv6.
<= div>


On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Ron Bonica <= ;rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:<= br>

Robert,

=C2=A0

I can only repeat what my customers=E2=80=99 require= ments. They have asked for 8-12 SIDs in SR-MPLS and SRv6 and SRv6+.<= u>

=C2=A0

We didn=E2=80=99t question that requirement for SR-M= PLS. Why should things be any different for SRv6 or SRv6+?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 11:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

> SR customers have stated a firm requirement to = support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router = hops I can reach most of my often visited destinations in the open Internet= anywhere in the=C2=A0world.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (= or for that matter SR-MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administra= tive control.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Therefor I do question the necessity to have such de= ep/long list of segments for any practical network application.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv= 6 verbatim as an analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that = is completely wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing archi= tecture and its abilities.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RE= SV-PATH msg signalling such that forwarding is using locally upstream assig= ned labels distributed by return RSVP-RESV msg.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I would never suggest to do same with SR. The bigges= t advantage of SR (outside of its network programmability concept) is in th= e ability to encode very selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding = just flows natively using IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS label.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So proper use of SR does require wise selection of s= uch anchor points in the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for= it. Much smarter algorithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR t= echnology in any network especially in cases where the IGP topology is very dense and complex.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deploym= ents across biggest global networks I=C2=A0 can state that vast majority of= true path steering can be easily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly = selected anchor nodes across their domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters and you get max 5.=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

So even if some individual operators would like to u= se 8, 12 or maybe 16 segments in their packets I do not see this as fundame= ntally sufficient justification to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding = proposal.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for = real technical justifications for such deep segment stacks. Note that we ar= e at the end of 4 week pool window and there was none sent to the list so f= ar.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kind regards,

Robert.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica <rbon= ica=3D40j= uniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Rob,

=C2=A0

The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6= +:

=C2=A0

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6

=C2=A0

Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists

----------------------------------------------------=

=C2=A0

SR customers have stated a firm requirement to suppo= rt SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirem= ent for implementations to forward at line speed =C2=A0and without consuming excessive overhead bandwidth.

=C2=A0

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-= header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path w= ith 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth o= verhead would be prohibitive.

=C2=A0

Therefore, one of the four solutions =C2=A0that you = mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-se= gment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mature and should be given equal con= sideration.

=C2=A0

The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-m= irsky.

=C2=A0

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------

Network operators strive for operational simplicity.= By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4= 291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The following are architectural qui= rks of =C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:

=C2=A0

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Theref= ore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost= path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.<= /li>
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it = is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one loc= ally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, = while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally inva= lid.

=C2=A0

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =C2=A0pro= mises more architectural quirks. For example:

=C2=A0

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers=
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
    • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Fi= eld in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is = followed by Ethernet payload.

=C2=A0

Other emerging drafts promise still more architectur= al quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations = need to examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as = routing information.

=C2=A0

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address space and number th= eir networks in a particular way to make routing work.

=C2=A0

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work=

-----------------------= ---------------------------------

SRv6+ =C2=A0has been implemented on LINUX and is bei= ng implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specif= ication is fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2=80=99s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.=

=C2=A0

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a st= rict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the wo= rking group, they won=E2=80=99t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a sp= ecification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi SPRING WG,

=C2=A0<= /span>

Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Pa= cket Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (= SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

=C2=A0<= /span>

These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or R= FC Editor).

=C2=A0<= /span>

During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentati= ons were related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane= :

=C2=A0<= /span>

During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been pr= oposed:

=C2=A0<= /span>

As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for = the WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, = we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators in= terested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:<= u>

  • use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, e= xplicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding performance and sca= ling requirements
    • e.g., (number of nodes, networ= k diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the latter, if = possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the= number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SRv6 approach = is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a d= ifferent solution is required and whether this solution is needed for the s= hort term only or for the long term.

=C2=A0<= /span>

As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPR= ING community to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are se= eing which limit the deployment of SRv6=C2=A0 In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

=C2=A0<= /span>

For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please p= ost this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, pl= ease send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

=C2=A0<= /span>

This call for information will run for four weeks, up to= 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@= ietf.org.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0<= /span>

Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno

=C2=A0<= /span>

(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can = encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may = be required.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/spring

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

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Thread-Index: AQHVSwgx1C0+06fAOEubArDypHiFT6cV4KUAgAE2EwCAAEHrAIAAUI0A Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 19:47:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=rbonica@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2019-09-01T18:59:14.2206214Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=Juniper Business Use Only; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=e2f89ae8-1bf3-40f3-aede-950e6d6e8407; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1c.0.190812 x-originating-ip: [197.155.81.44] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 62e67cb2-cef3-4a67-5838-08d72f153d08 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:DBBPR03MB5382; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DBBPR03MB5382: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 5 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0147E151B5 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(376002)(136003)(346002)(366004)(396003)(39860400002)(37854004)(199004)(189003)(76116006)(8676002)(6512007)(6436002)(81156014)(5660300002)(76176011)(966005)(81166006)(53546011)(26005)(66556008)(102836004)(2616005)(14454004)(6506007)(476003)(66476007)(66066001)(91956017)(4326008)(66946007)(606006)(66446008)(64756008)(86362001)(446003)(25786009)(8936002)(561944003)(99286004)(53936002)(6246003)(30864003)(2906002)(6486002)(316002)(486006)(478600001)(53946003)(71190400001)(71200400001)(36756003)(66574012)(7736002)(5070765005)(6306002)(3846002)(110136005)(229853002)(58126008)(10916006)(54906003)(33656002)(11346002)(14444005)(54896002)(6116002)(236005)(186003)(256004)(579004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DBBPR03MB5382; H:DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Rm3kYMZdgto+wJw/ZAJzfJunNo/iWlFyZDI4Pq6VVfgLDMv8kLXszZ31ss75xTBhozH8INY903apDyGfVM+AOfPE65DZ7YUss0QiYG5truo0+2ZnFlMP++OtrORLuOlFhL4wSmL644HYtQ9ApydyRkZ8vV6uEQ8lB/UDVCJ+VDn6Bqk7Zn35ibMO9O4EdYZDGWy90JTvwrU0Gd4da1SFpsd3uW/oVAotNJGg+q9k6JvlI2YqZmlfYy/LcXl+D23qf5O8x0hqrzWkFIFFxTPXxru/0j3pd7nICV7FMm7Q2hqhCmZRP+ApIXXG2yQm4kL5QE0W7VmqljXeTglh6dSGYng2yCwNudDpzQmvjN0LvD79/15qzTQB0QRZ5Tm4q29vPMZ2axPy09XUY6424Dp1zlm/69HNk6+GVTI213y9fwE= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: liquidtelecom.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 62e67cb2-cef3-4a67-5838-08d72f153d08 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Sep 2019 19:47:35.9830 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 68792612-0f0e-46cb-b16a-fcb82fd80cb1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Lsl5KtYOiLhaUU7tQ9rtHnBRTNzfoOayU1Ju8j8PCbaT4heJFe3RFVXWMh3i5nXds5207ANijGkoek/6h8F44c64aEwlXnNevHyhoakaloU= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DBBPR03MB5382 X-MC-Unique: NhaSRUYIOa64DvGLhYJ4vg-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AA7A22975E964071B96FDE3B4F0FDBE3liquidtelecomcom_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 19:47:47 -0000 --_000_AA7A22975E964071B96FDE3B4F0FDBE3liquidtelecomcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBjYW4gc3RhdGUgY2F0ZWdvcmljYWxseSB0aGF0IHdlIGhhdmUgYSBzb2xpZCBjYXNlIHRvIHVz ZSA4IHRvIDEyIFNJROKAmXMg4oCTDQoNCkxldCBtZSBwdXQgaXQgdGhpcyB3YXkg4oCTIElmIEkg Y3Jvc3MgbXkgb3duIG5ldHdvcmsg4oCTIFRvIGdldCB0byBjZXJ0YWluIGNvdW50cmllcyBJIGhh dmUgdG8gcGFzcyB0aHJvdWdoIG5vIGxlc3MgdGhhbiA1IHNlcGFyYXRlIGNvdW50cmllcyBpbiBj ZXJ0YWluIHNjZW5hcmlvcyDigJMgYW5kIGl04oCZcyBub3QgcHJhY3RpY2FsbHkgcG9zc2libGUg dG8gYXZvaWQgdGhpcy4gIFdoZW4gSSBhZGQgdGhlIHZhcmlvdXMgcGF0aHMgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBz dGVlciBhY3Jvc3MgYW5kIHRoZSBudW1iZXJzIG9mIGRldmljZXMgdG8gZG8gdGhpcyBpbiBhIGdy 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HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gp--FZ8aLKko for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 13:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68FE41200B3 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 13:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id g17so10851378qkk.8 for ; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 13:28:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cx5rKsJy/y2Gn9gBhzIGMZ2LxV511pxLlgd3VoyFV7E=; b=J5D2Rk78ZwjctUN2vUZIpkDeYT4Xi8P39QfuUjB/FQFTn9z3xuohE0fZ/xQn9ozDUw 1mvTfhoepr0P3ycVdNMZCGvYfSUr3imALlQuwH3ECaRasbUiMeOL9eCnYVtfYffpmWcB C/aBTcaKSpCvUiuvAd0bprWp9syeTcngA/tUNs6W/GolBoFBCPgih3hTPFr4zAcEd8Oa nzwtLwSFi7ayJwLV0qilcujS0bPij8IP0M43+2UccIw3DHDCgaBq2c9LGzLffJiA+2TS NLhSlHk03ZmxsO8b+At6xbsi3GZOkfAezz9saWMDJc3ym7Ip/PX9ZvDuuWZdcTl7FvTG 0gBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cx5rKsJy/y2Gn9gBhzIGMZ2LxV511pxLlgd3VoyFV7E=; b=XhDP4T58sG/vj2RPSnKivozL5S/+mtE3IlkV3PdE2WQsEmkwUhLO7MQjEb9pYSLVND ZWbCJf9+T8I5lKizIrToNrEBtZ0oqPH5yX+muzN3Vxe0D/Vn0lWETlfbgmEoFiIOFneW dcMtkxQ7OgdQOlmkqzjwqWctpkhyxXrg6mn3nmkwR/qKXmuf+CJqmQ5baSqYvJ/B7/An dDzcdo27Go4TGefrJu+al0FMA1OCJYlQMWmUWQAjRnEHwo8340lzhhZJCYhNllF7wQn6 74T0bhDhOKuZABnjJmK3Gla8OI3djk2yXwQ20bB24rzvyDkrAWpFtuX3mXHzrXDfdVsm iuYA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU3vI4JWVZZsk1zXcDFtwvEyZjUBLweju1k0EN+Y3aJsFBmtQ2t 7FS1ifTFeThFrmC57SDov1WdTm2gjmKcAim9Qaaong== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz9zLUjA0hxwSI4ZF0n2PyyhtLkfxssM61UdjFDG+836nQn3mgpykB8XP0HaZK/zw97qduuQRD6vv0Kit22Jx0= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:dd82:: with SMTP id r124mr24984524qkf.134.1567369692368; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 13:28:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 22:28:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bee4fa059183b129" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 20:28:17 -0000 --000000000000bee4fa059183b129 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andrew, Looking at your network topology https://www.liquidtelecom.com/about-us/network-map.html yes indeed you need to pass via number of countries, but keep in mind that SR is not a routing protocol. Even focusing on your longest data paths say from Cairo to Cape Town I really see no use for more then optimally chosen 3 or 4 SIDs to well diversify the flows to traverse different end to end paths then your routed default. Now if your desire is to provide for all the possible data flows per each ECMP link group forwarding control then I see counting adj SIDs you can get to 10 SIDs or more. But is SRv6 then optimal tool in the toolkit to accomplish that ? But assume it is how about use of uSID combination with SRH such that you can have your requirements well satisfied in the current network regardless if alternative design or alternate network architecture exists or not ? Thx, Robert. On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 9:47 PM Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > I can state categorically that we have a solid case to use 8 to 12 SID=E2= =80=99s =E2=80=93 > > > > Let me put it this way =E2=80=93 If I cross my own network =E2=80=93 To g= et to certain > countries I have to pass through no less than 5 separate countries in > certain scenarios =E2=80=93 and it=E2=80=99s not practically possible to = avoid this. When > I add the various paths we need to steer across and the numbers of device= s > to do this in a granular way =E2=80=93 with the amount of meshing we have= to do to > achieve redundancy =E2=80=93 yes =E2=80=93 it gets complex =E2=80=93 and = yes =E2=80=93 the node depth gets > deep. > > > > Our case of needing granular steering here =E2=80=93 without necessarily = going > lose =E2=80=93 is ironclad =E2=80=93 and I can say that right now, 10 nod= e steering for > certain cases is 100% a reality for what we need. > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Sunday, 1 September 2019 at 21:00 > *To: *Robert Raszuk > *Cc: *Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , " > 6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Robert, > > > > I can only repeat what my customers=E2=80=99 requirements. They have aske= d for > 8-12 SIDs in SR-MPLS and SRv6 and SRv6+. > > > > We didn=E2=80=99t question that requirement for SR-MPLS. Why should thing= s be any > different for SRv6 or SRv6+? > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Sunday, September 1, 2019 11:03 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG List ; > 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. > > > > Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router hops I can reach most > of my often visited destinations in the open Internet anywhere in > the world. > > > > With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (or for that matter > SR-MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administrative control. > > > > Therefor I do question the necessity to have such deep/long list of > segments for any practical network application. > > > > Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv6 verbatim as an > analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that is completely > wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing architecture and > its abilities. > > > > In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RESV-PATH msg signallin= g > such that forwarding is using locally upstream assigned labels distribute= d > by return RSVP-RESV msg. > > > > I would never suggest to do same with SR. The biggest advantage of SR > (outside of its network programmability concept) is in the ability to > encode very selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding just flows > natively using IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS label. > > > > So proper use of SR does require wise selection of such anchor points in > the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for it. Much smarter > algorithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR technology in any > network especially in cases where the IGP topology is very dense and > complex. > > > > Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deployments across biggest > global networks I can state that vast majority of true path steering can > be easily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly selected anchor nodes > across their domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters > and you get max 5. > > > > So even if some individual operators would like to use 8, 12 or maybe 16 > segments in their packets I do not see this as fundamentally sufficient > justification to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding proposal. > > > > As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for real technical > justifications for such deep segment stacks. Note that we are at the end = of > 4 week pool window and there was none sent to the list so far. > > > > Kind regards, > > Robert. > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Rob, > > > > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: > > > > - Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > - Operational Simplicity > - SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 > > > > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for > implementations to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive > overhead bandwidth. > > > > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisf= y > these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 > would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH > at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. > > > > Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required > to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is > close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equal= ly > mature and should be given equal consideration. > > > > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. > > > > Operational Simplicity > > ----------------------------- > > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely > interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RF= C > 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational > complexity. The following are architectural quirks of > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header: > > > > - The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. > Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the > least-cost path from source to destination > - The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. > - The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and > how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address cont= ains > one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one > particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another > locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. > > > > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural > quirks. For example: > > > > - Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers > - An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > - IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next > Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even thou= gh > the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload. > > > > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For > example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to exami= ne > the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has > been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. > > > > Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires > network operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a > particular way to make routing work. > > > > SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. > Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly > complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2= =80=99s > just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. > > > > Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation o= f > RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won= =E2=80=99t > need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when > stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental a= s > RFC 8200. > > > > > = Thanks, > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in > NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP o= r > GRE. > > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related > to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > - SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 > > - uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-sr= v6-usid-01 > > > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > - https://tools.ietf..org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 > > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think > it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on > the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from > the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, > and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > - use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > - forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > > - e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in > max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-b= it SIDs > and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be dif= ferent > (*). > > > - if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only o= r for > the long term. > > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to > briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limi= t > the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number o= f > SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SI= Ds > would improve the deployments . > > > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the > SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it > directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a > reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and > ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. > > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > --000000000000bee4fa059183b129 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andrew,

Looking at your network topo= logy=C2=A0https://www.liquidtelecom.com/about-us/network-map.html=C2=A0yes ind= eed you need to pass via number of countries, but keep in mind that SR is n= ot a routing protocol.

Even focusing on your longe= st data paths say from Cairo to Cape Town I really see no use for more then= optimally chosen 3 or 4 SIDs to well diversify the flows to traverse diffe= rent end to end paths then your routed default.

Now if your desire is to provide for all the possible data flows per e= ach ECMP link group forwarding control then I see counting adj SIDs you can= get to 10 SIDs or more. But is SRv6 then optimal tool in the toolkit to ac= complish that ?=C2=A0
But assume it is how = about use of uSID combination with SRH such that you can have your requirem= ents well satisfied in the current network regardless if alternative design= or alternate network architecture exists or not ?=C2=A0
<= span style=3D"text-align:center">
Thx,
Rober= t.


On S= un, Sep 1, 2019 at 9:47 PM Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

I can state categorically that we have a solid= case to use 8 to 12 SID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93

=C2=A0

Let me put it this way =E2=80=93 If I cross my= own network =E2=80=93 To get to certain countries I have to pass through n= o less than 5 separate countries in certain scenarios =E2=80=93 and it=E2= =80=99s not practically possible to avoid this.=C2=A0 When I add the various paths we need to steer across = and the numbers of devices to do this in a granular way =E2=80=93 with the = amount of meshing we have to do to achieve redundancy =E2=80=93 yes =E2=80= =93 it gets complex =E2=80=93 and yes =E2=80=93 the node depth gets deep.

=C2=A0

Our case of needing granular steering here =E2= =80=93 without necessarily going lose =E2=80=93 is ironclad =E2=80=93 and I= can say that right now, 10 node steering for certain cases is 100% a reali= ty for what we need.

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: = spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> Date: Sunday, 1 September 2019 at 21:00
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Robert,

=C2=A0

I can only repeat what my customers=E2=80=99 require= ments. They have asked for 8-12 SIDs in SR-MPLS and SRv6 and SRv6+.<= u>

=C2=A0

We didn=E2=80=99t question that requirement for SR-M= PLS. Why should things be any different for SRv6 or SRv6+?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 11:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

> SR customers have stated a firm requirement to = support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router = hops I can reach most of my often visited destinations in the open Internet= anywhere in the=C2=A0world.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (= or for that matter SR-MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administra= tive control.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Therefor I do question the necessity to have such de= ep/long list of segments for any practical network application.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv= 6 verbatim as an analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that = is completely wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing archi= tecture and its abilities.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RE= SV-PATH msg signalling such that forwarding is using locally upstream assig= ned labels distributed by return RSVP-RESV msg.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I would never suggest to do same with SR. The bigges= t advantage of SR (outside of its network programmability concept) is in th= e ability to encode very selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding = just flows natively using IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS label.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So proper use of SR does require wise selection of s= uch anchor points in the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for= it. Much smarter algorithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR t= echnology in any network especially in cases where the IGP topology is very dense and complex.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deploym= ents across biggest global networks I=C2=A0 can state that vast majority of= true path steering can be easily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly = selected anchor nodes across their domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters and you get max 5.=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

So even if some individual operators would like to u= se 8, 12 or maybe 16 segments in their packets I do not see this as fundame= ntally sufficient justification to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding = proposal.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for = real technical justifications for such deep segment stacks. Note that we ar= e at the end of 4 week pool window and there was none sent to the list so f= ar.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kind regards,

Robert.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica <rbon= ica=3D40j= uniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Rob,

=C2=A0

The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6= +:

=C2=A0

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6

=C2=A0

Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists

----------------------------------------------------=

=C2=A0

SR customers have stated a firm requirement to suppo= rt SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirem= ent for implementations to forward at line speed =C2=A0and without consuming excessive overhead bandwidth.

=C2=A0

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-= header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path w= ith 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth o= verhead would be prohibitive.

=C2=A0

Therefore, one of the four solutions =C2=A0that you = mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-se= gment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mature and should be given equal con= sideration.

=C2=A0

The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-m= irsky.

=C2=A0

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------

Network operators strive for operational simplicity.= By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4= 291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The following are architectural qui= rks of =C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:

=C2=A0

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Theref= ore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost= path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.<= /li>
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it = is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one loc= ally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, = while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally inva= lid.

=C2=A0

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =C2=A0pro= mises more architectural quirks. For example:

=C2=A0

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers=
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
    • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Fi= eld in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is = followed by Ethernet payload.

=C2=A0

Other emerging drafts promise still more architectur= al quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations = need to examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as = routing information.

=C2=A0

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address space and number th= eir networks in a particular way to make routing work.

=C2=A0

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work=

-----------------------= ---------------------------------

SRv6+ =C2=A0has been implemented on LINUX and is bei= ng implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specif= ication is fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2=80=99s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.=

=C2=A0

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a st= rict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the wo= rking group, they won=E2=80=99t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a sp= ecification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi SPRING WG,

=C2=A0<= /span>

Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Pa= cket Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (= SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

=C2=A0<= /span>

These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or R= FC Editor).

=C2=A0<= /span>

During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentati= ons were related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane= :

=C2=A0<= /span>

During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been pr= oposed:

=C2=A0<= /span>

As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for = the WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, = we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators in= terested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:<= u>

  • use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, e= xplicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding performance and sca= ling requirements
    • e.g., (number of nodes, networ= k diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the latter, if = possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the= number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SRv6 approach = is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a d= ifferent solution is required and whether this solution is needed for the s= hort term only or for the long term.

=C2=A0<= /span>

As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPR= ING community to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are se= eing which limit the deployment of SRv6=C2=A0 In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

=C2=A0<= /span>

For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please p= ost this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, pl= ease send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

=C2=A0<= /span>

This call for information will run for four weeks, up to= 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@= ietf.org.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0<= /span>

Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno

=C2=A0<= /span>

(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can = encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may = be required.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/spring

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:10:46 -0000 Hi Fernando, 6man participants should look at the following: - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01= (In particular, Sections 4 and 5) - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-= usid-02 = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Fernando Gont =20 Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; SPRING= WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi, Ron, For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you p= lease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"? In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), = so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what. Thanks! Cheers, Fernando On 31/8/19 23:33, Ron Bonica wrote: > Rob, >=20 > =A0 >=20 > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: >=20 > =A0 >=20 > * Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > * Operational Simplicity > * SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------- >=20 > =A0 >=20 > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that=20 > contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for=20 > implementations to forward at line speed =A0and without consuming=20 > excessive overhead bandwidth. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot=20 > satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8=20 > segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could=20 > process such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be pr= ohibitive. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Therefore, one of the four solutions =A0that you mention below is=20 > required to make SRv6 deployable. While=20 > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four=20 > competing solutions mentioned below are equally mature and should be give= n equal consideration. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Operational Simplicity >=20 > ----------------------------- >=20 > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely=20 > interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and=20 > RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce=20 > operational complexity. The following are architectural quirks of > =A0draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header: >=20 > =A0 >=20 > * The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. > Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse > the least-cost path from source to destination > * The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. > * The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and > how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address > contains one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed > in one particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address > contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be > totally invalid. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =A0promises more=20 > architectural quirks. For example: >=20 > =A0 >=20 > * Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers > * An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > * IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next > Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even > though the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For=20 > example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to=20 > examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because=20 > the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid=20 > requires network operators to obtain address space and number their=20 > networks in a particular way to make routing work. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > SRv6+ =A0has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. > Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly=20 > complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document.=20 > It's just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict=20 > interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the=20 > working group, they won't need to overcome the objections that are=20 > inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a=20 > specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 > Thanks, >=20 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 > =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 > Ron >=20 > =A0 >=20 > =A0 >=20 > =A0 >=20 > =A0 >=20 > =A0 >=20 > =A0 >=20 > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Hi SPRING WG, >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing=20 > in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS)=20 > and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in=20 > UDP or GRE. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). >=20 > =A0 >=20 > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were=20 > related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: >=20 > * SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org= _html_draft-2Dbonica-2Dspring-2Dsrv6-2Dplus-2D04&d=3DDwID-g&c=3DHAkYuh63rsu= hr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrD= ThKP8&m=3DZASTQL-zus0nxutimTLAQl7WlS4Dqso6C1dMTkxeio0&s=3DBN2DF-66SUZSxAadb= oFqg1MP1Drk_9bHoYZhGq8jZXE&e=3D=20 > > * uSID -- > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org= _html_draft-2Dfilsfils-2Dspring-2Dnet-2Dpgm-2Dextension-2Dsrv6-2Dusid-2D01&= d=3DDwID-g&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-= BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DZASTQL-zus0nxutimTLAQl7WlS4Dqso6C1dMTkx= eio0&s=3DuAESJj-OvK22RpEy_P4-T9kubYyJm55Q4ba3mX4KDhY&e=3D=20 > =20 > tml_draft-2Dfilsfils-2Dspring-2Dnet-2Dpgm-2Dextension-2Dsrv6-2Dusid-2D > 01&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ8= 2si > r-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJKdxnE2ieI > C4dD_FL6s&s=3DAq1DK7fu73axZ1PXLIE8xnHE2AhTtNZy9LTHgWqx4CQ&e=3D> >=20 > =A0 >=20 > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: >=20 > * https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org= _html_draft-2Dli-2Dspring-2Dcompressed-2Dsrv6-2Dnp-2D00&d=3DDwID-g&c=3DHAkY= uh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2Ef= pHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DZASTQL-zus0nxutimTLAQl7WlS4Dqso6C1dMTkxeio0&s=3D8cKoeToYaF= KfdgCZAYjwm4PItthfOAV0YkfhL46p4e8&e=3D=20 > =A0 > * https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org= _html_draft-2Dmirsky-2D6man-2Dunified-2Did-2Dsr-2D03&d=3DDwID-g&c=3DHAkYuh6= 3rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHc= AwrDThKP8&m=3DZASTQL-zus0nxutimTLAQl7WlS4Dqso6C1dMTkxeio0&s=3DMAEp0tdnu5Q7C= s7V5XNblNjEKByN7mucnnDwiwKEqS0&e=3D=20 > =20 > tml_draft-2Dmirsky-2D6man-2Dunified-2Did-2Dsr-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh6= 3 > rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2Efp > HcAwrDThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJKdxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DgcbkHYxXm= 7 > FU7vblOB1vI58SDaaWf62pa7YvLmsP4nI&e=3D> >=20 > =A0 >=20 > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to=20 > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we=20 > think it is important that the WG should first get to a common=20 > understanding on the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a=20 > smaller SID - both from the perspective of operators that are looking=20 > to deploy these technologies, and from that of the software/hardware=20 > implementation. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR=20 > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: >=20 > * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > * forwarding performance and scaling requirements >=20 > o e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required > in max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 > 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would > typically be different (*). >=20 > * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only > or for the long term. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community=20 > to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing=20 > which limit the deployment of SRv6=A0 In particular limitations related=20 > to the number of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much=20 > the use of shorter SIDs would improve the deployments . >=20 > =A0 >=20 > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to=20 > the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please=20 > send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). >=20 > =A0 >=20 > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03.=20 > As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via=20 > spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via=20 > spring-ads@ietf.org . >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > -- Rob & Bruno >=20 > =A0 >=20 > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two=20 > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. >=20 > =A0 >=20 > =A0 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests:=20 > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mail > man_listinfo_ipv6&d=3DDwID-g&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWz= o > CI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DZASTQL-zus0nxutimT= L > AQl7WlS4Dqso6C1dMTkxeio0&s=3DHzZWo8ryJvwtuP_GEiM0Hy52ogBtiaiDML21sxVzf1k > &e=3D > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Sep 1 14:30:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F60A1200A4 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:30:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KS5XjsX_kVxX for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:30:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com [146.101.78.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC4CF1200C5 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur04lp2053.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.13.53]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-83-2SVKvZkVN9OLh4CQnc__3A-1; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 22:30:09 +0100 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.179.46.78) by DBBPR03MB5222.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.78.213) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2220.19; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 21:30:07 +0000 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e596:5baa:fb66:1bed]) by DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e596:5baa:fb66:1bed%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2220.020; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 21:30:06 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: Robert Raszuk CC: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: AQHVSwgx1C0+06fAOEubArDypHiFT6cV4KUAgAE2EwCAAEHrAIAAUI0A///IQYCAAFRjgA== Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 21:30:06 +0000 Message-ID: <90420D6A-6840-4FFB-B78E-2CAD102F07D3@liquidtelecom.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1c.0.190812 x-originating-ip: [197.155.81.44] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 79949213-c5f3-4e3e-1f39-08d72f238f3b x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:DBBPR03MB5222; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DBBPR03MB5222: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 6 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0147E151B5 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(366004)(346002)(376002)(396003)(136003)(39860400002)(189003)(37854004)(199004)(58126008)(102836004)(3846002)(86362001)(10916006)(6486002)(6246003)(6116002)(53546011)(11346002)(476003)(2616005)(561944003)(66066001)(6436002)(81156014)(81166006)(8676002)(54906003)(7736002)(6506007)(33656002)(6916009)(8936002)(229853002)(76176011)(4326008)(66946007)(486006)(64756008)(66556008)(66446008)(66476007)(71200400001)(71190400001)(25786009)(53946003)(446003)(316002)(606006)(478600001)(6512007)(36756003)(5070765005)(76116006)(966005)(14454004)(186003)(14444005)(53936002)(66574012)(2906002)(6306002)(26005)(99286004)(54896002)(30864003)(236005)(91956017)(256004)(5660300002)(579004)(559001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DBBPR03MB5222; H:DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: D24h6+4gf/MpbyR6rsJOLBuYGpBTOhk960W8NCUwS4mGCv+e/H8iFpKHy1jifx6Uok+QfYhl0n6iSIjqsRT593TOSwas5o/EGeebQMogAIPHjVuZfwA/85dfIPcas8B0OyQhFU0Mpk+PGncF7jweKC5d1dTs4080ZpKmU9lm9xpfZDhCDOq7i5urrO0Abr0xP1YdsiCVGZQRyxAIL8tnoadgIxfFwDOxjqOdfDuQ+jsSZ7pFWQh36GQX4hvoW3nJzp2TKLtBFXMZUH9HVCDoO335Mkw0ftrCiY/aqzzSmdT810G6/AxutuFQRealmk5Q/3auB3PFnDqN19g7kVBYeQbWDliXLywoJAD9aNtxQ5FVoysRJnnodIbBDm8WSxEz1fxBekqFvQK2T3lCEwqo5gB88cNXVvo4f32heADeAyE= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: liquidtelecom.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 79949213-c5f3-4e3e-1f39-08d72f238f3b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Sep 2019 21:30:06.8472 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 68792612-0f0e-46cb-b16a-fcb82fd80cb1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: tnYcUkYjNy8VntxZlo+T3Ee7uT/A94ubfxTdEj5hXfxb9kegxClHNPssBP5y73eKTJbT5W9BEWAsaXvh3CqeQTtOyrYS/gusBmF95WsWOGQ= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DBBPR03MB5222 X-MC-Unique: 2SVKvZkVN9OLh4CQnc__3A-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_90420D6A68404FFBB78E2CAD102F07D3liquidtelecomcom_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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-4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VqdZmHoATa9T; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D44A51200C5; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:32:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: spring@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.foobar.org (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x81LWKVv099653 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 1 Sep 2019 22:32:21 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.foobar.org To: Ron Bonica Cc: Fernando Gont , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 22:32:19 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.18 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:32:29 -0000 Ron Bonica wrote on 01/09/2019 22:10: > -https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-02 Ron, if this draft proposes using up to /32 per router in a SRv6 domain, or even /40 to /48, it may be appropriate to solicit input from RIR address policy groups about the impact this may have on ipv6 assignment / allocation policies. Nick From nobody Sun Sep 1 14:39:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18AD61200CD for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:39:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vlp708oQTiok for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 473341200A4 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id o12so2141600qtf.3 for ; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 14:39:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R9wNGCeF4jRsVlL6wq7urdRCr+6GC7CFHjOU5jEJEQM=; b=LsLGAtuHFvdoIWokcqj084GgkX/7LMuM/AFVnsWN/CEYR6lG0movNoy5KjjaTd930v fYUNtKA8jAfPo0ToGtAmtVoIiN04E7C36RtH8A8B2+bAk3sbwpiDYYMLFlfC/4KuabBS oiI/H0Q7fDGwXZcTJ5PwgMeJc1osnyvC6WfpAVPb/fb3frHgvKRjDgu3tUM8YmlWd5cN h3CX5nkRfgV1KOT/aGJVvAXs3i2isjyL/zutSeXJIWNKLS8eF+Qq74NZgsi6URApoXdi XlgR0npcE9uzABfVznea6fLBuqOKYfe3DVLFSAMnmSSnB7ng+0a0Zb7MngnlUhdAY1wP aRCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R9wNGCeF4jRsVlL6wq7urdRCr+6GC7CFHjOU5jEJEQM=; b=ZjkCIjQCiXD+KuS/4CO6Ah6RFDhQuzkqRAgivZIt/cfe88yKOMI3wzkR3RKU8K5A7X JNJX1HuZ+W8mFMcZ5fuMiUrIo3+3swuVjvzQpF7t7+sn9+SgqrcwBTkbZHv0mm+oH+Cb Sa5qFiV5FPghQ/GKS7vKMvhkxbYU+YoyPStQBHAB79T42JW7FFVgcHGf7Bw9y5bifR2i ZwnfQna5xYWSodxxRODlRmhZCQTtXsVUWOG6nNAZSqtgqfBHnvSgdI0m5D1nWd1EtVtp 5eokxBB46TSi0Vn61CuDtRNlnd8RLsIpqOy06sQmNysacyBikxbQ0/noYkzaKvfrbJCq TyRg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXtrLQcCvj4j6CR23uOulnrhL9LyI5Igs7eVFFmQtWuRB8u+vl/ AHEDv8kOOQyBMCV27rZcsAE/ViPbjeTkR2hdmOhbyw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx7dBu2bejlgaUC544Qgwu9ykKj2p5+TxhIKIi2CuziDPgGNDhwxe5rMqsYRzJqnd/sW5OT+jul/mdNOyFX++Y= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2a3b:: with SMTP id c56mr11156497qtd.343.1567373970308; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 14:39:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 23:39:21 +0200 Message-ID: To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , Fernando Gont , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bb1385059184b009" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:39:33 -0000 --000000000000bb1385059184b009 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Nick, How about using ULAs as defined in RFC4193 ? After all isn't local IPv6 FC00::/7 address block defined precisely for such private use cases like the one which uSID requires? Clearly RIRs will not allocate /22 blocks left and right and that v6 prefix would be required if I have 1000 node network and my uSID is /32. Thx, R. On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:33 PM Nick Hilliard wrote: > Ron Bonica wrote on 01/09/2019 22:10: > > - > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-02 > > Ron, > > if this draft proposes using up to /32 per router in a SRv6 domain, or > even /40 to /48, it may be appropriate to solicit input from RIR address > policy groups about the impact this may have on ipv6 assignment / > allocation policies. > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000bb1385059184b009 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nick,

How about using ULAs as defined i= n RFC4193 ?=C2=A0

After all isn't local IPv6= =C2=A0FC00::/7= =C2=A0address block defined precisely for such private use cases like the o= ne which uSID requires?=C2=A0

Clearly RIRs will no= t allocate /22 blocks left and right and that v6 prefix would be required i= f I have 1000 node network and my uSID is /32.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.


On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:33 PM Ni= ck Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> = wrote:
Ron Bonic= a wrote on 01/09/2019 22:10:
> -https://tools.= ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-02

Ron,

if this draft proposes using up to /32 per router in a SRv6 domain, or
even /40 to /48, it may be appropriate to solicit input from RIR address policy groups about the impact this may have on ipv6 assignment /
allocation policies.

Nick

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Thread-Index: AQHVSwgt98swpc9VGEiHCF6pCt7E6qcVwfowgAAkGwCAAY+IsIAADcmAgAAB94CAAAHcEA== Content-Class: Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 21:46:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=rbonica@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2019-09-01T21:46:38.6674982Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=Juniper Business Use Only; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=c87c0df3-3630-4db8-991f-b2275c2f23a6; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.2.0.14 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: bd2e7efe-7f52-43ee-8a18-08d72f25df1a x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR05MB6471; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR05MB6471: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 5 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0147E151B5 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(376002)(396003)(346002)(39860400002)(366004)(136003)(199004)(189003)(2906002)(6246003)(229853002)(4326008)(8936002)(8676002)(81156014)(81166006)(76116006)(11346002)(66446008)(64756008)(66556008)(66946007)(66476007)(6116002)(790700001)(99286004)(3846002)(486006)(7696005)(102836004)(54906003)(110136005)(53546011)(6506007)(446003)(476003)(316002)(76176011)(53936002)(33656002)(256004)(74316002)(7736002)(606006)(14454004)(86362001)(66066001)(71200400001)(66574012)(71190400001)(6306002)(9686003)(5660300002)(236005)(52536014)(54896002)(25786009)(478600001)(966005)(55016002)(186003)(26005)(6436002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR05MB6471; H:BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: G66737itGnNFK72urT1+jtxvnzk4G7w2/LnRtSPm3cWuNCZ5CgieIuu3uSKFaj6cymCSg7Y7Z59kOZ/dm70evxzj/pTIZw8JRKI6loIPANA0yLXl6p7Z/Reyp7XSWTkfoJL9LKDYDy3svF9XERjUniuQBOpR+kiZernX9aPDEfFXo6PuALDzpGkVfkOxhqDl/nwcDRdS/D7G60x8oK2ryHYLqHq9dmA02YkzGxOW1QCndIolgzJp3U40gNpFvaQKiEo8QGivP7LKbucTnfXpc6dgsAHGJqRb1/na6ccLqfrkq39vqtBPUIqd864yBO4/B5TdgMhQJJmIO6CC3Iy9QGoYR/ewqm5Zgmg4g5GTFPf5XVhzP4fRdTq2ZCakbdqxFkTiCzVm/YI/L4hqXWLDmoXDyOv3SOP5Fc7lQCEuFcI= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB54636C203A62D62812544D78AEBF0BYAPR05MB5463namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bd2e7efe-7f52-43ee-8a18-08d72f25df1a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Sep 2019 21:46:39.8568 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: CLhZvFUoIC13hEPNP+5VmEBwgBuX/sY1k4f5ppehqkqIy/the69xn0QBYld51nCcA2L621LavDW2bDd/l36I6A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6471 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-01_08:2019-08-29,2019-09-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909010248 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:47:31 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB54636C203A62D62812544D78AEBF0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, Please see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/?gbt=3D1&index= =3DBPXFbv5drFqv7k7nPIN3SDuifo0. Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 5:39 PM To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; Fernan= do Gont ; SPRING WG List ; 6man@iet= f.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Nick, How about using ULAs as defined in RFC4193 ? After all isn't local IPv6 FC00::/7 address block defined precisely for suc= h private use cases like the one which uSID requires? Clearly RIRs will not allocate /22 blocks left and right and that v6 prefix= would be required if I have 1000 node network and my uSID is /32. Thx, R. On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:33 PM Nick Hilliard > wrote: Ron Bonica wrote on 01/09/2019 22:10: > -https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6= -usid-02 Ron, if this draft proposes using up to /32 per router in a SRv6 domain, or even /40 to /48, it may be appropriate to solicit input from RIR address policy groups about the impact this may have on ipv6 assignment / allocation policies. Nick _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB54636C203A62D62812544D78AEBF0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

Please see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/?gbt=3D1&index=3DBPXFbv= 5drFqv7k7nPIN3SDuifo0.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;  Ron

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 5:39 PM
To: Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@goo= gle.com>; Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>; SPRING WG List &l= t;spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Nick,

 

How about using ULAs as defined in RFC4193 ? 

 

After all isn't local IPv6 FC00::/7 address block defined precise= ly for such private use cases like the one which uSID requires? <= /o:p>

 

Clearly RIRs will not allocate /22 blocks left and r= ight and that v6 prefix would be required if I have 1000 node network and m= y uSID is /32. 

 

Thx,

R.

 

 

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:33 PM Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:<= /p>

Ron Bonica wrote on 01/09/2019 22:10:
> -https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fils= fils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-02

Ron,

if this draft proposes using up to /32 per router in a SRv6 domain, or
even /40 to /48, it may be appropriate to solicit input from RIR address policy groups about the impact this may have on ipv6 assignment /
allocation policies.

Nick

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/spring

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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[73.231.117.2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b13sm12415273pjz.10.2019.09.01.14.52.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 01 Sep 2019 14:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-EE468209-C40F-4FB3-A986-3BF023F85898 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Gaurav Dawra X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <376967329.83741002.1567325959372.JavaMail.zimbra@free-mobile.fr> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:52:51 -0700 Cc: SPRING WG List , Satoru Matsushima , "Zafar Ali, zali" , Rob Shakir Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <7AF74229-6052-4805-BD22-61CD54244FA7@gmail.com> References: <53E6C388-6DF1-42CF-A97D-98D248AB6CED@cisco.com> <74217E0F-94A9-424F-858A-3CA5B6DB21BB@gmail.com> <376967329.83741002.1567325959372.JavaMail.zimbra@free-mobile.fr> To: =?utf-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien_Parisot?= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:52:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail-EE468209-C40F-4FB3-A986-3BF023F85898 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, We are interested in the SRv6 solution as standardized by the working group.= Thanks! We see SRv6 solution may align with some of our production requirements for T= E(and other use-cases) while potentially being inline within our needs for s= implicity, performance, MTU overhead optimizations etc Gaurav > On Sep 1, 2019, at 1:19 AM, S=C3=A9bastien Parisot wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > We deployed SRv6 as part of our new mobile network in Italy (Iliad Italy).= SRv6 with SRH is carrying commercial traffic of millions of subscribers for= several months, with line-rate performance and on several platforms and ope= rating systems. > We also started to extend our deployment to our national network in France= (Free & Free Mobile), we already have significant inter-AS SRv6 traffic. >=20 > You can also read draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01 sectio= n 2.3. >=20 > Best regards, > S=C3=A9bastien >=20 > ----- Mail original ----- >> De: "Satoru Matsushima" >> =C3=80: "SPRING WG List" >> Cc: "Zafar Ali, zali" , "Rob Shakir" >> Envoy=C3=A9: Samedi 31 Ao=C3=BBt 2019 15:41:43 >> Objet: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. >=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> As part of the 5G rollout, Softbank have deployed a nationwide SRv6 netwo= rk >> carrying commercial traffic with the linerate performance using Merchant >> Silicon. >>=20 >> https://www.softbank.jp/corp/news/press/sbkk/2019/20190424_03/ >>=20 >> # You can read it in your language through some translation service, e.g,= google >> translation. >>=20 >> draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status captured that use case. >>=20 >> Best regards, >> --satoru >>=20 >>=20 >>> 2019/08/31 6:05=E3=80=81Zafar Ali (zali) =E3=81=AE=E3=83= =A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >>>=20 >>> Dear Chairs and the WG: >>>=20 >>> The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation is imple= mented >>> on 12 hardware platforms including Merchant Silicon. >>> Multiple providers have deployed the SRv6 network programming solution a= nd its >>> SRH encapsulation with line-rate performance carrying a significant amou= nt of >>> commercial traffic. >>> Several independent interoperability reports documenting successful >>> interoperability of implementation from multiple vendors exist. >>> Implementation, deployment, and interoperability status is publicly docu= mented >>> inhttps://www.ietf.org/id/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status= -01.txt. >>>=20 >>> Most use-cases are expected to use very few SRv6 segments. >>>=20 >>> In some specific use-cases, one may desire to optimize the MTU usage fur= ther. >>> The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation also sup= port for >>> this Optimization, through the uSID network instruction. >>>=20 >>> I do not see the need for any new encapsulation work. >>>=20 >>> Thanks >>>=20 >>> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar >>>=20 >>> From: spring on behalf of Rob Shakir >>> >>> Date: Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 5:04 PM >>> To: SPRING WG List >>> Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. >>>=20 >>> Hi SPRING WG, >>>=20 >>> Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in >>> NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and I= Pv6 >>> (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GR= E. >>>=20 >>> These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). >>>=20 >>> During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related= to the >>> reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 SRv6+ / CRH -- >>> =E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-0= 4 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 uSID -- >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-s= rv6-usid-01 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>>=20 >>> During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6= -np-00 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr= -03 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>>=20 >>> As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to unders= tand >>> what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is imp= ortant >>> that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requiremen= ts for >>> a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective of >>> operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that o= f the >>> software/hardware implementation. >>>=20 >>> Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR o= ver the >>> IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 forwarding performance and scaling requirements >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, >>> =E2=80=A2 number of SID required in max and average). For the lat= ter, if possible using >>> both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the numb= er would >>> typically be different (*). >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 >>> =E2=80=A2 if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable >>> =E2=80=A2 in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a dif= ferent solution is >>> required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only o= r for the >>> long term. >>> =E2=80=A2 >>>=20 >>> As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to= briefly >>> describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit the >>> deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of S= IDs >>> which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould >>> improve the deployments . >>>=20 >>> For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the S= PRING >>> WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it directl= y to >>> the chairs & AD (Martin). >>>=20 >>> This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a= >>> reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs viaspring-chairs@ietf.org and A= Ds via >>> spring-ads@ietf.org. >>>=20 >>> Thank you, >>> -- Rob & Bruno >>>=20 >>> (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instr= uctions >>> a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >=20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-EE468209-C40F-4FB3-A986-3BF023F85898 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

We are interested in the S= Rv6 solution as standardized by the working group. Thanks!
=

We see SRv6 solution may align with some of our production req= uirements for TE(and other use-cases) while potentially being inline within o= ur needs for simplicity, performance, MTU overhead optimizations etc

G= aurav


On Sep 1, 2019, at 1:19 AM, S=C3=A9bast= ien Parisot <sparisot@free-mob= ile.fr> wrote:

Hi,

We deployed SRv6 as part of our= new mobile network in Italy (Iliad Italy). SRv6 with SRH is carrying commer= cial traffic of millions of subscribers for several months, with line-rate p= erformance and on several platforms and operating systems.
W= e also started to extend our deployment to our national network in France (Fre= e & Free Mobile), we already have significant inter-AS SRv6 traffic.

You can also read draft-matsushima-spring-srv6= -deployment-status-01 section 2.3.

Best reg= ards,
S=C3=A9bastien

----- M= ail original -----
De: "Satoru Mat= sushima" <satoru.matsushim= a@gmail.com>
=C3= =80: "SPRING WG List" <spring@ietf.org= >
Cc: "Zafar A= li, zali" <zali@cisco.com>, "Rob= Shakir" <robjs=3D= 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Envoy=C3=A9: Samedi 31 Ao=C3=BBt 2019 15:41:43
Objet: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

Hi,

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">As part of the 5G rollout, Softbank have depl= oyed a nationwide SRv6 network
carrying commercial traffic with the linerate performance using Me= rchant
Silicon.

https://www.softbank.jp/corp/news/press/sbkk/20= 19/20190424_03/
<= /span>
# You can read it in y= our language through some translation service, e.g, google
translation.

draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status captured that use c= ase.

Best regards,
--satoru


2019/08/31 6:05=E3=80=81Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:=

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">Dear Chairs and the WG:

The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulat= ion is implemented
on 12 hardware platforms including Merc= hant Silicon.
=
Multiple providers have deployed the SRv6 ne= twork programming solution and its
SRH encapsulation with l= ine-rate performance carrying a significant amount of
comm= ercial traffic.
Several independent interoperability repor= ts documenting successful
interoperability of implementati= on from multiple vendors exist.
Implementation, deployment= , and interoperability status is publicly documented
=
inhtt= ps://www.ietf.org/id/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01.txt.<= /span>

Most use-cases are expected to use very= few SRv6 segments.

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
In some specific us= e-cases, one may desire to optimize the MTU usage further.
The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation also suppor= t for
this Optimization, through the uSID network instruct= ion.

I do not see the need for any new e= ncapsulation work.

Thanks
<= span>
Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar
From: spring <spring-= bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Rob Shakir
<robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc= .ietf.org>
Date: Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 5:04 PM<= /span>
To: SPRING WG List <= spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=
Hi SPRING WG,

<= /blockquote>
Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing i= n
NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS= (SR-MPLS) and IPv6
(SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also b= e transported over IP in UDP or GRE.

Th= ese encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor).
=

During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two pre= sentations were related to the
reduction of the size of th= e SID for IPv6 dataplane:
   =E2=80=A2
   =E2=80=A2 SRv6+ / CRH --
  &= nbsp;=E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04=
   =E2=80=A2
   =E2= =80=A2
   =E2=80=A2 uSID --
&= nbsp;  =E2=80=A2
   https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01
   =E2=80=A2

= During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed:=
   =E2=80=A2
   =E2=80=A2= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00
   =E2=80=A2
   =E2=80=A2=
   =E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03
   =E2=80=A2

As we expressed during the meeting, it i= s important for the WG to understand
what the aims of addi= tional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is important
= that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements f= or
a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from th= e perspective of
operators that are looking to deploy thes= e technologies, and from that of the
software/hardware imp= lementation.
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
Therefore, we would like t= o solicit network operators interested in SR over the
IPv6= data plane to briefly introduce their:
=
   =E2=80= =A2
   =E2=80=A2 use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, e= xplicit routing/TE)
   =E2=80=A2
   =E2=80=A2
   =E2=80=A2 forward= ing performance and scaling requirements
   =E2= =80=A2
       =E2=80=A2
<= span>        =E2=80=A2 e.g., (number of nodes, network d= iameter,
       =E2=80=A2 number of S= ID required in max and average). For the latter, if possible using
       both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g= . 32-bit) SIDs as the number would
      &= nbsp;typically be different (*).
      &nb= sp;=E2=80=A2
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">    =E2=80=A2
&n= bsp;  =E2=80=A2 if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable<= br>
   =E2=80=A2 in their circumstances, details of the re= quirement of a different solution is
   require= d and whether this solution is needed for the short term only or for the
   long term.
   =E2=80= =A2

As well as deployment limitations, we= would like the SPRING community to briefly
describe the p= latform limitations that they are seeing which limit the
d= eployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of S= IDs
which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use= of shorter SIDs would
improve the deployments .
<= /blockquote>

For both of these sets of feedback if possible, pl= ease post this to the SPRING
WG. If the information cannot= be shared publicly, please send it directly to
the chairs= & AD (Martin).

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
This call for infor= mation will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a
rem= inder, you can reach the SPRING chairs viaspring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via
spring-ads@ietf.org.

Thank you,
-- Rob & Bruno

(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID ca= n encode two instructions
a node SID and an adjacency SID h= ence less SID may be required.

________= _______________________________________
=
spring mailing lis= t
spring@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

_______________________________________________
=
spring mailing list
<= /blockquote>
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/spring

_______________________________________________
spring mai= ling list
spring@ietf.org=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
= --Apple-Mail-EE468209-C40F-4FB3-A986-3BF023F85898-- From nobody Sun Sep 1 14:56:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF391200C5; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:56:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bcSImOQvnNnq; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x631.google.com (mail-pl1-x631.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::631]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5727C12008F; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 14:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x631.google.com with SMTP id o3so5683461plb.13; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 14:56:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xnsfDvhVO6E7Gtry/Sstiso9oatJCnCgvPPvjYl11kg=; b=K0DoqRGdhRKaW/IQ8hVFrwgsmMkAJNOR49AY94ls3B7F591XOej4u+/983wwOk3d7A jBC2sNUaVcrJUkBL0nNwCBxeFUlL4PwR9OKT7pmxQAOqmIqBM8MahrwbdmONZ1sH4oY4 PAT0qe6f7Dnnqw45YpxsD4QlMGxlTXTOIKuhIyBvzitRriARmveXIghc5Hbr9qBmFl9B ncmfEpr5lVFDoWk6nKOj7td8PLwkQWmi9Ox2pEiDPSJpDvhc43QeHsJcXr3GrcZlU1lF HFe5ML1Ks2QhzLib8BAcv8hVkunfN6uRuwiT4KgTk61nAhOqF2krSasr/MmWz+dLjoW0 hm0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xnsfDvhVO6E7Gtry/Sstiso9oatJCnCgvPPvjYl11kg=; b=MI0GWMC3M6YaLZ7d85eE9ZgrEWMOXCzzMb8IOPq5lv9Cgvix5YOz5x82Nh6dmBIiC9 +WfuH1Q0ihklZ/i0Z3NDiu8tBMpXId9lJxulj0cw5v0m20ETq+OBpjSj/wAkNGJ8L+6o 5e3SavEXGlFB1B5MIVjg6yAg7bJ4nsFV2zYowqyopbaGHg3PYiXrAHx/Xv1HcISD7Z+e bEtowH0AqfN+yV7SwTHT/rTIm7F2Uu+EiP6Bb8WL1ncdbrROaIAmhI9U6vXVD9bS9qJ+ sEHVl4VjMKaWXXOWl4ui/CgEJ9m00ETt1jkkahBv0cAv/WfOpXcxqHvWBKX95zFRplyK sFNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVh0Oe1QDzcS6EUB8S48WBdIQN9GPt0VpQ7cLNp8o1OCqImMZMH 643h4tzY7fXwRFwIRUDYv5davQ/HCEkcH63DhNk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzeYTnNrjplMiBesKSrJLLpq/HbN80bRKkOcVg3CZpy51q4DdiJ+D9VFXrHf+d9p5sY/MhRBg70KSNfWrFulUI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8507:: with SMTP id bj7mr20390964plb.50.1567374981567; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 14:56:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2019 23:56:12 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Nick Hilliard , Rob Shakir , Fernando Gont , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000199a6059184ed0c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:56:24 -0000 --0000000000000199a6059184ed0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Yes Ron I saw this message from Bob and as you see from the mailer I responded with clarification on why this is not 2^112. While I do not understand why ULAs blocks must be globally unique (to me this is analogy of RFC1918 :) there are few more options on the table on what blocks to use for uSIDs addressing. Thx, R. On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:48 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > Please see > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/?gbt=1&index=BPXFbv5drFqv7k7nPIN3SDuifo0 > . > > > > Ron > > --0000000000000199a6059184ed0c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes Ron I saw this message from Bob and as you see from the mailer= I responded with clarification on why this is not 2^112.=C2=A0

While I do not understand why ULA= s blocks must be globally unique (to me this is analogy of RFC1918 :) there= are few more options on the table on what blocks to use for uSIDs addressi= ng.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.=C2=A0


On Sun, Sep 1, = 2019 at 11:48 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

Please see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/?gbt=3D1&index=3DBPXFbv= 5drFqv7k7nPIN3SDuifo0.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron



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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/vr6SVYYKZPywG+07Az+GfR7X3DznzJioFoMVaSXTsY=; b=Bqb6Hj2lrTO2/q59e9QfYkeUJ4zF+cAXGbPo9y+ZHJw8eDWsom4cNTk23k20X6mnFU Zvylu1tiPVJ03G7rYuYfiIK6xK4jl+fxcmKMFevJVXhmkF2Qgj6D3SNansZQSu4PDKUV RRwZr34GdusugnMX085TutgGoUFB6RYDrwnl/1jLgSkpUxH0My3BJMPOWkR2VMSul+Hh R1Jym2EUwxTxRhUWMw78DSDMg8/HQkDoLkvJ31qqPxR+0lKvK47vCyeDv+obkQRU9P1k LBaP0AgYeNvUpbDbIOPPF4Na0KBSLMd/PYkBBFgVW1RVDOtTaP1kq5HEGl8bl91JuNOs yTkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/vr6SVYYKZPywG+07Az+GfR7X3DznzJioFoMVaSXTsY=; b=MtIF43sjoQQ7rz1+jNyvbHgCO9TwIiLxzF8VdsJzP2p2W5fAYbbMYwr44lTyp1fH3m KBSLToCkk8WEASwF/doQR2SAlIiBlVrgsWyfCluOj7ElDLS/GRxe0pZTb4CuJXFoUXwB SRR4UoTYpewkAMQMAc6DrSJizV6nlKAC9OIyUy52sJCUfr2X8b4d31Wh1J4qXb2Xtff8 Z313lEg//y6ngP9K0eAOH9meVnGSHTYaS2zXw+eFqgjuj3BgDPaKrAEm6Pk0TeRqmioE 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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 00:17:37 -0000 --0000000000000a47da059186e689 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 07:39 Robert Raszuk, wrote: > Nick, > > How about using ULAs as defined in RFC4193 ? > I've analysed uSID in the context of all current IPv6 unicast address formats in this email. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Gsr-nJqzhyYIrj8mG6p3KZ_HZ5E Short answer is you can only put uSIDs in the IID portion of any of those address formats, and must also ensure that the resulting IID value formed from the set of uSID values don't also match the reserved IID values. The uSID proposal is taking the position that all the bits after the high order prefix are available for any purpose. This is not correct, and would violate a number of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 Addressing Architecture RFC (RFC 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193). In particular, 40 bits of a ULA prefix, between /8 and /48, the Gobal ID, must be pseudo random. This is the most critical property of ULA addresses and prefixes, as it is the solution to the problem ULAs are designed to solve. 3.2 . Global ID The allocation of Global IDs is pseudo-random [RANDOM ]. They MUST NOT be assigned sequentially or with well-known numbers. This is to ensure that there is not any relationship between allocations and to help clarify that these prefixes are not intended to be routed globally. Specifically, these prefixes are not designed to aggregate. > After all isn't local IPv6 FC00::/7 address block defined precisely for > such private use cases like the one which uSID requires? > > Clearly RIRs will not allocate /22 blocks left and right and that v6 > prefix would be required if I have 1000 node network and my uSID is /32. > > Thx, > R. > > > On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:33 PM Nick Hilliard wrote: > >> Ron Bonica wrote on 01/09/2019 22:10: >> > - >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-02 >> >> Ron, >> >> if this draft proposes using up to /32 per router in a SRv6 domain, or >> even /40 to /48, it may be appropriate to solicit input from RIR address >> policy groups about the impact this may have on ipv6 assignment / >> allocation policies. >> >> Nick >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000000a47da059186e689 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 07:39 Robert Raszuk, <robert= @raszuk.net> wrote:
Nick,

How about using ULAs as defined in RFC419= 3 ?=C2=A0

<= div dir=3D"auto">I've analysed uSID in the context of all current IPv6 = unicast address formats in this email.

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch= /msg/spring/Gsr-nJqzhyYIrj8mG6p3KZ_HZ5E

=
Short answer is you can only put uSIDs in the IID p= ortion of any of those address formats, and must also ensure that the resul= ting IID value formed from the set of uSID values don't also match the = reserved IID values.

The= uSID proposal is taking the position that all the bits after the high orde= r prefix are available for any purpose. This is not correct, and would viol= ate a number of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 Addressing Archite= cture RFC (RFC 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193).
In particular, 40 bits of a ULA prefix, between /8= and /48, the Gobal ID, must be pseudo random. This is the most critical pr= operty of ULA addresses and prefixes, as it is the solution to the problem = ULAs are designed to solve.


3.2.  Global ID


   The allocation of Global IDs is pseudo-random [RAND=
OM].  They MUST
   NOT be assigned sequentially or with well-known numbers.  This is to
   ensure that there is not any relationship between allocations and to
   help clarify that these prefixes are not intended to be routed
   globally.  Specifically, these prefixes are not designed to
   aggregate.


After all isn't local IPv6=C2=A0FC00::/7=C2=A0address block defined pr= ecisely for such private use cases like the one which uSID requires?=C2=A0<= /div>

Clearly RIRs will not allocate /22 blocks left and= right and that v6 prefix would be required if I have 1000 node network and= my uSID is /32.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.


On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:33 PM Nick Hilliard <nick= @foobar.org> wrote:
Ron Bonica wrote on 01/09/2019 22:10:
> -https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-exten= sion-srv6-usid-02

Ron,

if this draft proposes using up to /32 per router in a SRv6 domain, or
even /40 to /48, it may be appropriate to solicit input from RIR address policy groups about the impact this may have on ipv6 assignment /
allocation policies.

Nick

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/spring
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/spring
--0000000000000a47da059186e689-- From nobody Sun Sep 1 17:25:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C691200E9; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 17:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3jOoe5-xOmHJ; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 17:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D0BD1200DF; Sun, 1 Sep 2019 17:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id k22so9248183oiw.11; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 17:25:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=77CcRalOa3yy+2BY0ltpDjCtNppYpMMM5lr0uOlZu6c=; b=ZeclVV/SJqlXnmfj5+Y9qWQYzjKYI8bxUN+v/knDY2rprFb5rcLehFn/uMpAF9+/Ic mEztKQE2miXcasRScyp71uEFvLx68+LaPr/rMINSSsUIBw2IY9tMdpHPVYUQBnmnu0W0 RL5c3szXSnyCgORMOcWygBfj4ByWME/Caohb25QT8uYZyXd9XwZ6OTI1W+QBUsvZC49w Fg5mVV/Trlc3Vol8F1PJOJb6Jxv7fZHlobzhT5Qf2IjYj+yduRvA62pACmrKePMmIQY3 nulyg7K9RKD+Pp0GREX8UsmOg+ypl7CbV0g8bLy7Cx5O2JXsyrEnodDngyAlH2QmFrnR CrGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=77CcRalOa3yy+2BY0ltpDjCtNppYpMMM5lr0uOlZu6c=; b=JV7rrg0Gw94fDleJ6/Rvc0hPW1jWZ9HNCkQLG24NDzbMPrNJfCmz0Yrv9oDXmbX1tf sNiryoFRKiRDOqX7YbmHmoUl6RVk/xw3zJyvxa4YhUlPwB+L8myLMLbYqL0qgxRDHWFd k48okX4+8lLWZGqBJ2zu89nvS6/zXujkYImNvNatysnj+VYa5OAozYV9p6AIMzJ0+g9a hfxeKX45cwiXzOZeqNEcwFt5w3aqU9oJAaKbRTm05aTcSxMK2huXo88UV86gjM2uqpre +BbYVUdgkkrz2uCbOMBrl5xgW/W63ez6nQWGWbtdSh5GqypYKerpB/LlGPuL43HochM5 0lqg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXj/n9SSKeQp7ELmOnyMREuzVLpOURKj1wO7Z5uwlXGgKzyfNJ8 S4/fgvFkZ3HR8GNLU8b7X4AR8Vw5SDZAXMqaI94= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzBX4EFFXIKKdu0IrOWmFLc1x5dxrOmJjsZrmm8ELSxg8KRmltivs8WnqgMkVyKMFR4fk56+1yB+gQki96gPxQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4e87:: with SMTP id c129mr5023059oib.7.1567383944482; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 17:25:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <90420D6A-6840-4FFB-B78E-2CAD102F07D3@liquidtelecom.com> In-Reply-To: <90420D6A-6840-4FFB-B78E-2CAD102F07D3@liquidtelecom.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 10:25:32 +1000 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003cd279059187039a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 00:25:48 -0000 --0000000000003cd279059187039a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 07:30 Andrew Alston, wrote: > Robert, > > > > CRH works just fine with the deep label depth in our testing of it. As I > stated in my previous emails =E2=80=93 There are a number of issues with = uSID that > I can see =E2=80=93 and I won=E2=80=99t repeat all of those here again. = There are a whole > number of aspects going through that network map that do not give a full > picture =E2=80=93 multiple paths of unequal sizes =E2=80=93 multiple circ= uits between > locations that aren=E2=80=99t clearly shown there for diversity sake =E2= =80=93 and a whole > heap of other issues. You need to realize that steering in our case is n= ot > just about diversity =E2=80=93 there are many reasons why we steer and wh= y our > customers wish us to steer =E2=80=93 and glancing at a network map like t= hat will > not give you close to a full picture. Those reasons can range from > everything from latency to geopolitical issues. > > > > Then again =E2=80=93 as an operator =E2=80=93 I have always believed in h= aving the choice > =E2=80=93 and as I stated in previous emails =E2=80=93 in the networking = world we have many > alternatives to many things > Too much choice is a bad thing, because there is then too greater risk of making a wrong choice. The least risky choice becomes make no choice. =E2=80=93 and I went as far as to propose writing an inter-op draft so that= both > CRH and uSID could move forward rather than both ending up stalled, or > worse will, one or the other ending up as proprietary =E2=80=93 > These are the sorts of problems you'll see with no clear consensus in a single solution to a problem. RFC 1958, "Architectural Principles of the Internet", "3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one. If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unless there is a good technical reason not to. Duplication of the same protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without of course using this argument to reject improvements." and I may well still get around to doing this =E2=80=93 time has just been = a little > hectic of late. > > > > Andrew > > *From: *Robert Raszuk > *Date: *Sunday, 1 September 2019 at 22:28 > *To: *Andrew Alston > *Cc: *Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir < > robjs@google.com>, SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" < > 6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > Looking at your network topology > https://www.liquidtelecom.com/about-us/network-map.html yes indeed you > need to pass via number of countries, but keep in mind that SR is not a > routing protocol. > > > > Even focusing on your longest data paths say from Cairo to Cape Town I > really see no use for more then optimally chosen 3 or 4 SIDs to well > diversify the flows to traverse different end to end paths then your rout= ed > default. > > > > Now if your desire is to provide for all the possible data flows per each > ECMP link group forwarding control then I see counting adj SIDs you can g= et > to 10 SIDs or more. But is SRv6 then optimal tool in the toolkit to > accomplish that ? > > > > But assume it is how about use of uSID combination with SRH such that you > can have your requirements well satisfied in the current network regardle= ss > if alternative design or alternate network architecture exists or not ? > > > > Thx, > > Robert. > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 9:47 PM Andrew Alston < > Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > > I can state categorically that we have a solid case to use 8 to 12 SID=E2= =80=99s =E2=80=93 > > > > Let me put it this way =E2=80=93 If I cross my own network =E2=80=93 To g= et to certain > countries I have to pass through no less than 5 separate countries in > certain scenarios =E2=80=93 and it=E2=80=99s not practically possible to = avoid this. When > I add the various paths we need to steer across and the numbers of device= s > to do this in a granular way =E2=80=93 with the amount of meshing we have= to do to > achieve redundancy =E2=80=93 yes =E2=80=93 it gets complex =E2=80=93 and = yes =E2=80=93 the node depth gets > deep. > > > > Our case of needing granular steering here =E2=80=93 without necessarily = going > lose =E2=80=93 is ironclad =E2=80=93 and I can say that right now, 10 nod= e steering for > certain cases is 100% a reality for what we need. > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Sunday, 1 September 2019 at 21:00 > *To: *Robert Raszuk > *Cc: *Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , " > 6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Robert, > > > > I can only repeat what my customers=E2=80=99 requirements. They have aske= d for > 8-12 SIDs in SR-MPLS and SRv6 and SRv6+. > > > > We didn=E2=80=99t question that requirement for SR-MPLS. Why should thing= s be any > different for SRv6 or SRv6+? > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Sunday, September 1, 2019 11:03 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG List ; > 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. > > > > Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router hops I can reach most > of my often visited destinations in the open Internet anywhere in > the world. > > > > With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (or for that matter > SR-MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administrative control. > > > > Therefor I do question the necessity to have such deep/long list of > segments for any practical network application. > > > > Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv6 verbatim as an > analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that is completely > wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing architecture and > its abilities. > > > > In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RESV-PATH msg signallin= g > such that forwarding is using locally upstream assigned labels distribute= d > by return RSVP-RESV msg. > > > > I would never suggest to do same with SR. The biggest advantage of SR > (outside of its network programmability concept) is in the ability to > encode very selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding just flows > natively using IPv6 address or domain wide MPLS label. > > > > So proper use of SR does require wise selection of such anchor points in > the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for it. Much smarter > algorithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR technology in any > network especially in cases where the IGP topology is very dense and > complex. > > > > Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deployments across biggest > global networks I can state that vast majority of true path steering can > be easily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly selected anchor nodes > across their domain(s). Add to that room for two SFC processing clusters > and you get max 5. > > > > So even if some individual operators would like to use 8, 12 or maybe 16 > segments in their packets I do not see this as fundamentally sufficient > justification to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding proposal. > > > > As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for real technical > justifications for such deep segment stacks. Note that we are at the end = of > 4 week pool window and there was none sent to the list so far. > > > > Kind regards, > > Robert. > > > > > > On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Rob, > > > > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: > > > > - Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > - Operational Simplicity > - SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 > > > > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for > implementations to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive > overhead bandwidth. > > > > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisf= y > these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 > would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH > at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. > > > > Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required > to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is > close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equal= ly > mature and should be given equal consideration. > > > > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. > > > > Operational Simplicity > > ----------------------------- > > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely > interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RF= C > 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational > complexity. The following are architectural quirks of > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header: > > > > - The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. > Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the > least-cost path from source to destination > - The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. > - The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and > how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address cont= ains > one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one > particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another > locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. > > > > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural > quirks. For example: > > > > - Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers > - An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > - IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next > Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even thou= gh > the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload. > > > > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For > example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to exami= ne > the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has > been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. > > > > Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires > network operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a > particular way to make routing work. > > > > SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. > Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly > complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2= =80=99s > just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. > > > > Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation o= f > RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won= =E2=80=99t > need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when > stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental a= s > RFC 8200. > > > > > = Thanks, > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in > NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP o= r > GRE. > > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related > to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > - SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 > > - uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-sr= v6-usid-01 > > > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > - https://tools.ietf..org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 > > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think > it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on > the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from > the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, > and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > - use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > - forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > > - e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in > max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-b= it SIDs > and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be dif= ferent > (*). > > > - if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only o= r for > the long term. > > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to > briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limi= t > the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number o= f > SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SI= Ds > would improve the deployments . > > > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the > SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it > directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a > reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and > ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. > > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000003cd279059187039a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 07:30 Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

CRH works just fine with the deep label depth = in our testing of it.=C2=A0 As I stated in my previous emails =E2=80=93 The= re are a number of issues with uSID that I can see =E2=80=93 and I won=E2= =80=99t repeat all of those here again.=C2=A0 There are a whole number of aspects going through that networ= k map that do not give a full picture =E2=80=93 multiple paths of unequal s= izes =E2=80=93 multiple circuits between locations that aren=E2=80=99t clea= rly shown there for diversity sake =E2=80=93 and a whole heap of other issues.=C2=A0 You need to realize that steering in our case is not just ab= out diversity =E2=80=93 there are many reasons why we steer and why our cus= tomers wish us to steer =E2=80=93 and glancing at a network map like that w= ill not give you close to a full picture.=C2=A0 Those reasons can range from everything from latency to geopolitical issues.

=C2=A0

Then again =E2=80=93 as an operator =E2=80=93 = I have always believed in having the choice =E2=80=93 and as I stated in pr= evious emails =E2=80=93 in the networking world we have many alternatives t= o many things


Too much choice is a bad thing, because the= re is then too greater risk of making a wrong choice. The least risky choic= e becomes make no choice.


=E2=80=93 and I went as far as to propose writing an inter-op draft so that both CRH and uSID could mo= ve forward rather than both ending up stalled, or worse will, one or the ot= her ending up as proprietary =E2=80=93

=
These are the sorts of problems you'll se= e with no clear consensus in a single solution to a problem.

RFC 1958, "Architectural Principles of the Internet",

"3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose=
 one.
   If a previous design, in the Internet context or elsewhere, has
   successfully solved the same problem, choose the same solution unless
   there is a good technical reason not to.  Duplication of the same
   protocol functionality should be avoided as far as possible, without
   of course using this argument to reject improvements."

and I= may well still get around to doing this =E2=80=93 time has just been a lit= tle hectic of late.

=C2=A0

Andrew

From= : Robert Raszuk <= ;robert@raszuk.net>
Date: Sunday, 1 September 2019 at 22:28
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alst= on@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40junip= er.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Rob Shakir <robjs@goo= gle.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org= >, "6man@ietf.org" <6= man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi Andrew,

=C2=A0

Looking at your network topology=C2=A0https://www.liquidtelecom.com/about-u= s/network-map.html=C2=A0yes indeed you need to pass via number of count= ries, but keep in mind that SR is not a routing protocol.

=C2=A0

Even focusing on your longest data paths say from Ca= iro to Cape Town I really see no use for more then optimally chosen 3 or 4 = SIDs to well diversify the flows to traverse different end to end paths the= n your routed default.

=C2=A0

Now if your desire is to provide for all the possibl= e data flows per each ECMP link group forwarding control then I see countin= g adj SIDs you can get to 10 SIDs or more. But is SRv6 then optimal tool in= the toolkit to accomplish that ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But assume it is how about use of uSID combination w= ith SRH such that you can have your requirements well satisfied in the curr= ent network regardless if alternative design or alternate network architect= ure exists or not ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx,

Robert.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 9:47 PM Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wro= te:

I can state categorically that we have a solid case = to use 8 to 12 SID=E2=80=99s =E2=80=93

=C2=A0

Let me put it this way =E2=80=93 If I cross my own n= etwork =E2=80=93 To get to certain countries I have to pass through no less= than 5 separate countries in certain scenarios =E2=80=93 and it=E2=80=99s = not practically possible to avoid this.=C2=A0 When I add the various paths we need to stee= r across and the numbers of devices to do this in a granular way =E2=80=93 = with the amount of meshing we have to do to achieve redundancy =E2=80=93 ye= s =E2=80=93 it gets complex =E2=80=93 and yes =E2=80=93 the node depth gets= deep.

=C2=A0

Our case of needing granular steering here =E2=80=93= without necessarily going lose =E2=80=93 is ironclad =E2=80=93 and I can s= ay that right now, 10 node steering for certain cases is 100% a reality for what we need.

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From= : spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ron Bonica= <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org= >
Date: Sunday, 1 September 2019 at 21:00
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org&= gt;
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Robert,

=C2=A0

I can only repeat what my customers=E2=80=99 require= ments. They have asked for 8-12 SIDs in SR-MPLS and SRv6 and SRv6+.<= u>

=C2=A0

We didn=E2=80=99t question that requirement for SR-M= PLS. Why should things be any different for SRv6 or SRv6+?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 11:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>= ;
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

> SR customers have stated a firm requirement to = support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Let me make an observation that with 8 to 12 router = hops I can reach most of my often visited destinations in the open Internet= anywhere in the=C2=A0world.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

With that let's also notice that proposed SRv6 (= or for that matter SR-MPLS) is applicable to networks under same administra= tive control.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Therefor I do question the necessity to have such de= ep/long list of segments for any practical network application.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Perhaps some customers (or vendors) are treating SRv= 6 verbatim as an analogy to RSVP-TE strict or loose ERO objects - but that = is completely wrong way to think about it in light of segment routing architecture and its abilities.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In RSVP-TE you nail down the path with hop by hop RE= SV-PATH msg signalling such that forwarding is using locally upstream assig= ned labels distributed by return RSVP-RESV msg.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I would never suggest to do same with SR. The bigges= t advantage of SR (outside of its network programmability concept) is in th= e ability to encode very selected anchor node or nodes to which forwarding just flows natively using IPv6 address or domain wide = MPLS label.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So proper use of SR does require wise selection of s= uch anchor points in the network. I am afraid CSPF is not the best tool for= it. Much smarter algorithm is required to engineer your traffic using SR technology in any network especially in cases where = the IGP topology is very dense and complex.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Based on my personal experience with MPLS-TE deploym= ents across biggest global networks I=C2=A0 can state that vast majority of= true path steering can be easily accomplished with 1, 2 or max 3 properly selected anchor nodes across their domain(s). Add to t= hat room for two SFC processing clusters and you get max 5.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

So even if some individual operators would like to u= se 8, 12 or maybe 16 segments in their packets I do not see this as fundame= ntally sufficient justification to proceed with yet one more SRv6 encoding proposal.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As both Rob & Bruno asked I will be looking for = real technical justifications for such deep segment stacks. Note that we ar= e at the end of 4 week pool window and there was none sent to the list so far.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kind regards,

Robert.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Aug 31, 2019 at 10:34 PM Ron Bonica <rbon= ica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

Rob,

=C2=A0

The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6= +:

=C2=A0

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6

=C2=A0

Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists

----------------------------------------------------=

=C2=A0

SR customers have stated a firm requirement to suppo= rt SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirem= ent for implementations to forward at line speed =C2=A0and without consuming excessive overhead bandwidth.

=C2=A0

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-= header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path w= ith 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth o= verhead would be prohibitive.

=C2=A0

Therefore, one of the four solutions =C2=A0that you = mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-se= gment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mature and should be given equal con= sideration.

=C2=A0

The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID,= draft-li and draft-mirsky.

=C2=A0

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------

Network operators strive for operational simplicity.= By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4= 291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The following are architectural qui= rks of =C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:

=C2=A0

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Theref= ore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost= path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.<= /li>
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it = is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one loc= ally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, = while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally inva= lid.

=C2=A0

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =C2=A0pro= mises more architectural quirks. For example:

=C2=A0

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers=
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
    • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Fi= eld in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is = followed by Ethernet payload.

=C2=A0

Other emerging drafts promise still more architectur= al quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations = need to examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as = routing information.

=C2=A0

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address space and number th= eir networks in a particular way to make routing work.

=C2=A0

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work=

---------------------= -----------------------------------

SRv6+ =C2=A0has been implemented on LINUX and is bei= ng implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specif= ication is fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2=80=99s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.=

=C2=A0

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a st= rict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the wo= rking group, they won=E2=80=99t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a sp= ecification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <s= pring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org> Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi SPRING WG,<= /p>

=C2=A0

Over the last 5+ years, the IETF ha= s developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routin= g for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

=C2=A0

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

=C2=A0

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

=C2=A0

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

=C2=A0

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

=C2=A0

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.
    • <= /ul>

    =C2=A0

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6=C2=A0 In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

    =C2=A0

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

    =C2=A0

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and A= Ds via spring-ads@ietf.org.=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno=

    =C2=A0

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Juniper Business Use Only

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/spring
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hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 74feff4b-92e6-4717-9bd6-08d72f43140c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Sep 2019 01:15:44.5937 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK2APC01HT068 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 01:15:51 -0000 --_000_HK0PR03MB39700007E730C0CDB9D9F579FCBE0HK0PR03MB3970apcp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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APjAAAV1FO9Z6G2NDU3iRobzlg6hTJyK3S0V+cWk/tqzJBKx1eXeWUnD ViCcEDrG0Zhg6ModsO7vtFTF6ARne/ZNA6gjDW0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwj2kuqbNR9kdRnjCzrsRddZ4OYZTUd3pC5lp4AdCJAnBJ/k3ujDArDw8/5mlj3H2NPSNwXccICBt6J9sTTofY= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6213:: with SMTP id g19mr20690641otj.257.1567387543389; Sun, 01 Sep 2019 18:25:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 11:25:31 +1000 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , Fernando Gont , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Nick Hilliard Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bfcbea059187d90d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 01:25:46 -0000 --000000000000bfcbea059187d90d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 07:56 Robert Raszuk, wrote: > > Yes Ron I saw this message from Bob and as you see from the mailer I > responded with clarification on why this is not 2^112. > > While I do not understand why ULAs blocks must be globally unique (to me > this is analogy of RFC1918 :) > RFC 3879, "Deprecating Site Local Addresses" there are few more options on the table on what blocks to use for uSIDs > addressing. > > Thx, > R. > > > On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:48 PM Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> Robert, >> >> >> >> Please see >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/?gbt=1&index=BPXFbv5drFqv7k7nPIN3SDuifo0 >> . >> >> >> >> Ron >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000bfcbea059187d90d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 07:56 Robert Raszuk, <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes Ron I saw this message from Bob and as you see fro= m the mailer I responded with clarification on why this is not 2^112.=C2=A0=

While I do not unders= tand why ULAs blocks must be globally unique (to me this is analogy of RFC1= 918 :)

RFC 3879, "Deprecating Site Local Addresses"



there are few more options = on the table on what blocks to use for uSIDs addressing.=C2=A0
<= /div>
=

Thx,
R.=C2=A0=


On Sun, Sep 1, 2019 at 11:48 PM Ron Boni= ca <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@d= marc.ietf.org> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

Please see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/spring/?gbt=3D1&index=3DBPXFbv= 5drFqv7k7nPIN3SDuifo0.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron



_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--000000000000bfcbea059187d90d-- From nobody Mon Sep 2 00:13:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346321200E9 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 00:13:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ayV_6fiv4OxV for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 00:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA07512002E for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 00:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46MLrt5Pphz13RHF; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 00:13:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1567408382; bh=k12cZP89FQ+YrRW7d30EHtRPCfe2PNdarK+a1a3y5lE=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=WfLTtu99rLhmKSn+AwdF+v0Vv4HfjJTwd8Qtp2dxlyPYIgvO7U5B+IuDKFJByPi4B n3kwntR2q3htwFLaMvwmIYgVXFTdSwmsscTcfF0JntriM7uc3l5XkzBT4xnTyvHfBT 61EDZropUBg8++J7HH382HKsCrbqd1jPKt/jt/q0= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.51.246] (unknown [217.171.42.130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46MLrs4ljjzKnBk; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 00:13:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Dirk Steinberg , SPRING WG List References: <53E6C388-6DF1-42CF-A97D-98D248AB6CED@cisco.com> <9A655231-45C5-4852-831E-72EC33151F03@lapishills.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <105d0bb9-fe88-180c-d860-401e457932ab@joelhalpern.com> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 03:12:59 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9A655231-45C5-4852-831E-72EC33151F03@lapishills.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 07:13:04 -0000 The introduction of alternatives was prompted by a number of concerns, not just the encapsulation overhead. Having said that, we as a group have not adopted the uSID approach, and many of us have serious concerns about that. Claiming that uSID is agreed and solves the size problems seems not to align with my understanding of the situation. Yours, Joel On 9/1/2019 10:20 AM, Dirk Steinberg wrote: > Hi, > > the introduction of SRv6 as alternate data plane in addition to MPLS > has been an important step in SPRING, providing an encapsulation > for SPRING traffic that is native to IPv6. > > The question about the necessity of work on alternate encapsulations > was fueled by concerns about encapsulation overhead when using > full 128 bit SIDs in the SRv6 SRH. > > Through the introduction of the uSID network instruction in SRv6 > these concerns are now properly addressed and SRv6 with uSID > can now also be deployed in a very MTU-efficient manner. > > Therefore I do not see a necessity for any additional encapsulations. > > Cheers > Dirk > >> Am 31.08.2019 um 06:05 schrieb Zafar Ali (zali) > >: >> >> Dear Chairs and the WG: >> The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation is >> implemented on 12 hardware platforms including Merchant Silicon. >> Multiple providers have deployed the SRv6 network programming solution >> and its SRH encapsulation with line-rate performance carrying a >> significant amount of commercial traffic. >> Several independent interoperability reports documenting successful >> interoperability of implementation from multiple vendors exist. >> Implementation, deployment, and interoperability status is publicly >> documented >> inhttps://www.ietf.org/id/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01.txt. >> Most use-cases are expected to use very few SRv6 segments. >> In some specific use-cases, one may desire to optimize the MTU usage >> further. >> The SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation also >> support for this Optimization, through the uSID network instruction. >> I do not see the need for any new encapsulation work. >> Thanks >> Regards … Zafar >> *From:*spring > > on behalf of Rob Shakir >> > > >> *Date:*Sunday, August 4, 2019 at 5:04 PM >> *To:*SPRING WG List > >> *Subject:*[spring] Beyond SRv6. >> Hi SPRING WG, >> Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing >> in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) >> and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP >> in UDP or GRE. >> These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). >> During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were >> related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: >> >> * >> * SRv6+ / CRH -- >> * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 >> * >> * >> * uSID -- >> * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 >> >>* >> >> During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: >> >> * >> * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 >> * >> * >> * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 >>* >> >> As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to >> understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we >> think it is important that the WG should first get to a common >> understanding on the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a >> smaller SID - both from the perspective of operators that are looking >> to deploy these technologies, and from that of the software/hardware >> implementation. >> Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR >> over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: >> >> * >> * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) >> * >> * >> * forwarding performance and scaling requirements >>* >> >> o >> o e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, >> o number of SID required in max and average). For the latter, if >> possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. >> 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different (*). >>o >> >> * >> * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable >> * in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a different >> solution is required and whether this solution is needed for the >> short term only or for the long term. >>* >> >> As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community >> to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing >> which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related >> to the number of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much >> the use of shorter SIDs would improve the deployments . >> For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to >> the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please >> send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). >> This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. >> As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs >> viaspring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs >> viaspring-ads@ietf.org . >> Thank you, >> -- Rob & Bruno >> (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two >> instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be >> required. >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > From nobody Mon Sep 2 00:58:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D5031200F8 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 00:58:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ToQa1a8-595L for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 00:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9642C1200E9 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 00:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id f10so11788874qkg.7 for ; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 00:58:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CN6P3dy4ye1c7cU376ucHLkOaOPoC/9w2wNQbd0XFfo=; b=csQo1y44PAwOSmMGbJUg1nIfrlBnG+LkFUZ8EgQ/kb08cqeXZ2MugHeA8Z+uiBTBts nkSmf7Jol3yvJ+suLvjL5s5klSpQi+amOAnlgGaA0eRrES+RW0H0mCdodx4CjtF2lty/ 5uTRtvlK2MeY2AcrNWxWmi14e3lEDg4glhWtYP3dF91EVpherVcKQv2w1rlR5VMlUIGf xOAdNTtwmc13CqXSxc68OH9shu0q3CbTjRCQFtAIC1iHZEIwWdcMxtNgMUHjetReXGq+ IwcZKn1xt2dgtTt1OfQgTeDBEQ9Xgc8JaO6NrOZDqHO9uY5YCMci2/fIueBnV6N5xGYT 8yfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CN6P3dy4ye1c7cU376ucHLkOaOPoC/9w2wNQbd0XFfo=; b=IIrXAomZeAqGOeWdKDhVBp4qY9Xtc8bkQST/V5yQ0y5MXLSn0qNobrt6nPWqni1B0M rPVaxJpBBMCBJDIEL2Jw6iMuPIIKv+KrJpAKXtsssH+qBWZSzK0+wiQLghEh/cfz9dse JbAvDC6C0qHtvlzoF913kuI9Ytfn+Di9tbLVMmBrfwTlbZklJ7bVDDEvc4BHR8GTBV9Y Sykb4cKUVSpspGERHbffjhRy71HYMvFOt5wU0hhgfRCr18CH7H3yaDjUXNWLHP7RvTXb m+vH/+6kbBscy/HTBb1HzvMvDBMEW9pei2Wrih2mNmD8ssiFksO/kqwoQWIa5CSKPS4v XVWg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW1LP2EGPQeazUUhlwYHdd68urO26twM1ABdWdT8Cb0vgkV3rWH FBFzjUkCVD4ORImt/ljYOzfiwXtSRTeV2t/BZFU6OQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxmI9072DBHynigPKjfRBEbmO77QL+/cMBp+1RUEtwsizXA3VE9NeBaHqKGpudDTBWnQRFJfGx7q/CS9SmXSiQ= X-Received: by 2002:ae9:dd82:: with SMTP id r124mr26568593qkf.134.1567411100495; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 00:58:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 09:58:09 +0200 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Nick Hilliard , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dcc5a505918d55fd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 07:58:24 -0000 --000000000000dcc5a505918d55fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Mark, > The uSID proposal is taking the position that all the bits after the high > order prefix are available for any purpose. This is not correct, and would > violate a number of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 Addressing > Architecture RFC (RFC 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193). > > In particular, 40 bits of a ULA prefix, between /8 and /48, the Gobal ID, > must be pseudo random. This is the most critical property of ULA addresses > and prefixes, as it is the solution to the problem ULAs are designed to > solve. > RFC 4193 says about Global_ID allocation: The local assignments are self-generated and do not need any central coordination or assignment, but have an extremely high probability of being unique. So in some the case operator may choose to make such "local assignment" of Global ID to be per router not per network. And that is all what is needed for uSID. uSID address blocks does not need to be continues. It also does not contradict with any RFC does it ? What breaks if I use more then one self generated Global ID in my network ? Note that the above question goes way beyond any SR related discussion so perhaps deserves a separate 6man thread. Best, R. --000000000000dcc5a505918d55fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mark,
=C2= =A0
The uSID proposal is taking the position that all the bits after= the high order prefix are available for any purpose. This is not correct, = and would violate a number of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 Addr= essing Architecture RFC (RFC 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193).

In particular, 40 bits of a ULA = prefix, between /8 and /48, the Gobal ID, must be pseudo random. This is th= e most critical property of ULA addresses and prefixes, as it is the soluti= on to the problem ULAs are designed to solve.
=
RFC 4193 says about Global_ID allocation:=C2=A0
   The loc=
al assignments are self-generated and do not need any central
   coordination or assignment, but have an extremely high probability of
   being unique.

So in some the case operato= r may choose to make such "local assignment" of Global ID to be p= er router not per network. And that is all what is needed for uSID. uSID ad= dress blocks does not need to be continues.=C2=A0

= It also does not contradict with any RFC does it ? What breaks if I use mor= e then one self generated Global ID in my network ?=C2=A0

Note that the above question goes way beyond any SR related discuss= ion so perhaps deserves a separate 6man thread.=C2=A0

<= div>Best,
R.=C2=A0

--000000000000dcc5a505918d55fd-- From nobody Mon Sep 2 03:24:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3668412006B; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 03:24:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qhsbh73phZmv; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 03:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BA95120073; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 03:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id 21so5681731otj.11; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 03:24:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=EWJ7zDw8KGI96tQ5Tf9bQmw4514ecBRGCgjgpabWdOY=; b=Bsf6/QxW70Xb18bKBq2pLyZfwyr+33uL/Ky3LAZcKPbWuA2K8CbnZoYepmgZdE4xXS tRtCHCgLOhTrEXWEGFvAA8JUZvXzJ30ih9rW1m4j5KzzpR9STkEMw8eE/031fqq4i4tz xHmY1N8eqKatqTKxRwyIKoy1rOjicr3/c6hKqd2s7TFOytmkhB+bAtlNfF/Sa3WOrrOQ N2KSaZwuuxEhdUC6201w59/kWYA+zHpOX1mq48TMbhwfzfaegDMcGCpIm0x7CJeHmLSf Fb3hSGQwjfKzOETFPBL0t/9qziFpUZAV1jpvFcJGglgYPY8G9d2Wb72XnP1mWz0rKKtJ 5LrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=EWJ7zDw8KGI96tQ5Tf9bQmw4514ecBRGCgjgpabWdOY=; b=UrohGu+OJ551GW1LrLX5Zaz1CELp8JOfRw9+5ZI31JvCFGwpWxVvKQdNXyVvNDNKl6 /MVmiYNVHF9ej5DtxcJoOQcb0bRKAeSAXFedJWbAoASLPQIWxVPa8EI6P4LR5H7nNTj/ K9qEfkuF3ytwjuNE970QrjdrK6QWZG9+Mp700RLKOpgxg6myIffcPyKIlOcRZaELhxy+ xG9WGbhfPcuEYOo6IvVSP6s2svKv6lZRX2cp/O8NbSPGFNPCB5tRrOZQJSDzUcpnx1Y2 h4ekIMdSxSO8Vaj+UKMeSWlEvHJPef9KZjAs2pVyeIJAplUvc5ulYxG6a1eNc/J7Vtxa pz6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWeqLwMy1vAXzgSCZHVTCQv06AkEjli1kjh52S02vVP9orHFsFy goLGf6OE5Odiclwn8/Wa580RxggpmkLFQI8wFhQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy2aGAjUE7pWVeYQS9KhvkFdmNGEtGsIyE7BJAP9BUG3EXC9HtHQSv8LDs84MbiuPSzs7f6Y8EFUTSQOBMz5bQ= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:404a:: with SMTP id o10mr3912544oti.94.1567419874722; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 03:24:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 20:24:22 +1000 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Nick Hilliard , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d8c71f05918f6046" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 10:24:37 -0000 --000000000000d8c71f05918f6046 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 17:58 Robert Raszuk, wrote: > Hi Mark, > > >> The uSID proposal is taking the position that all the bits after the high >> order prefix are available for any purpose. This is not correct, and would >> violate a number of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 Addressing >> Architecture RFC (RFC 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193). >> >> In particular, 40 bits of a ULA prefix, between /8 and /48, the Gobal ID, >> must be pseudo random. This is the most critical property of ULA addresses >> and prefixes, as it is the solution to the problem ULAs are designed to >> solve. >> > > RFC 4193 says about Global_ID allocation: > > The local assignments are self-generated and do not need any central > coordination or assignment, but have an extremely high probability of > being unique. > > Are uSID values going to be entirely pseudo-random? " 3.2.1 . Locally Assigned Global IDs Locally assigned Global IDs MUST be generated with a pseudo-random algorithm consistent with [RANDOM ]." > So in some the case operator may choose to make such "local assignment" of > Global ID to be per router not per network. And that is all what is needed > for uSID. uSID address blocks does not need to be continues. > > It also does not contradict with any RFC does it ? What breaks if I use > more then one self generated Global ID in my network ? > > Note that the above question goes way beyond any SR related discussion so > perhaps deserves a separate 6man thread. > > Best, > R. > > --000000000000d8c71f05918f6046 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 17:58 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi Mark,
= =C2=A0
The uSID proposal is taking the position that all the bits a= fter the high order prefix are available for any purpose. This is not corre= ct, and would violate a number of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 = Addressing Architecture RFC (RFC 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193).

In particular, 40 bits of a = ULA prefix, between /8 and /48, the Gobal ID, must be pseudo random. This i= s the most critical property of ULA addresses and prefixes, as it is the so= lution to the problem ULAs are designed to solve.
<= div>
RFC 4193 says about Global_ID allocation:=C2=A0

   The local ass=
ignments are self-generated and do not need any central
   coordination or assignment, but have an extremely high probability of
   being unique.

Are uSID values going to be entirely = pseudo-random?

"
3.2.1.  Locally Assigned Global IDs


   Locally assigned Global IDs MUST be generated with a pseudo-random
   algorithm consistent with [RANDOM]."


So in some the cas= e operator may choose to make such "local assignment" of Global I= D to be per router not per network. And that is all what is needed for uSID= . uSID address blocks does not need to be continues.=C2=A0

It also does not contradict with any RFC does it ? What breaks if = I use more then one self generated Global ID in my network ?=C2=A0

Note that the above question goes way beyond any SR relate= d discussion so perhaps deserves a separate 6man thread.=C2=A0
Best,
R.=C2=A0

--000000000000d8c71f05918f6046-- From nobody Mon Sep 2 04:09:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521F2120132 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gO24CEXmw9D9 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E0F512006A for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:09:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id q203so2934722qke.1 for ; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 04:09:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+cAiQudtTUjN+mD7l7d6U34Q1jT1BccDwq/m5kfzlO8=; b=WYvgXh2IhnaxS/SPzJBmG9uxMXxB/1G/9WNSHRhTsrG+f9392b/kKs+I78Cym1cjQD wgyN3JnPnxbLKmVmstDe4TsKpiIfdLBEcELfFBjE9vqLG4neoeNn5IWS8A8dyF8pLlCX T/po3ndEXUijtHwJuDxUzBRkSlHakD4HEvqmmA1nVmI4kF7J5r9H8GusE+GHU8Y5SMAv wnnhoADHMHuJUBAXFGLhA3HA7eKAnlS6wU7See8/hOOrkJEz501rtJxePPxxXH9vItj8 /Bm6pjszIa1nB9j5jgaT9729NWP+NyXVes+LJjz1lG8s1ceTOFeE1EpHdCaUhFEJ2AdU 1EVw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+cAiQudtTUjN+mD7l7d6U34Q1jT1BccDwq/m5kfzlO8=; b=U8ZNNP8LdRq3O2w/2sJHzQ8FfHcfkrRI9CI4GgHQjTg5Vir5TP2iy02LNS5D+HeLW2 mI8tePnTb2KeNKLKLoY53NsBfJPyNTOX5Yelj+MP7nyepMeph4Sog1Iu2izUxJVQKqGU r5s7fK3MYyELYS0GNvvlROKX/hd/dX6Ny1HjtLRhfYcpR2XL2BOs6A/1TZSNXLEuI8BO OtGo9erUIPWjb3IwfSE6mRp4fNXWCCW3XoXHQmb8hW5Mf1s8wbHdzPsUjbdwS3ugTsrT puI5+XbByLx7PveeDszQdfY4cYzB+KKFWBWawWq0EM2KFo6T2SdPU+afIgfqSL0TSUCj maMA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXHO9uaC+XmwUBYPDY6lyK2M3VfBXKsE5M9FVG8uVaXLF2YTRAF E+tTDz64OWb4fmJkbbXrwZeaCWhymZ5u+YKV/pT8+w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyYTE2iwbpcNVuSca4/dKQ9lJ2f/9ooKO3lFv8gtV7WF2qKiW6LVP9H57zhTiswVz7KkPJpDD2vohnlQqwNQqg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1245:: with SMTP id a5mr220726qkl.134.1567422587498; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 04:09:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 13:09:36 +0200 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Nick Hilliard , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a86500591900225" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 11:09:50 -0000 --0000000000008a86500591900225 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Are uSID values going to be entirely pseudo-random? I see no reason why not ... Networks are managed by some form of NMS. NMS can generate such values and abstract it with a "node_name_usid" string for any additional processing and human abstraction. If that is the only concern I think we are done then. The only issue is that if you happen to have hierarchical IGP you will not be able to summarize them - but I don't think that this would be a showstopper to any deployment. Best, R. On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:24 PM Mark Smith wrote: > > > On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 17:58 Robert Raszuk, wrote: > >> Hi Mark, >> >> >>> The uSID proposal is taking the position that all the bits after the >>> high order prefix are available for any purpose. This is not correct, and >>> would violate a number of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 >>> Addressing Architecture RFC (RFC 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193). >>> >>> In particular, 40 bits of a ULA prefix, between /8 and /48, the Gobal >>> ID, must be pseudo random. This is the most critical property of ULA >>> addresses and prefixes, as it is the solution to the problem ULAs are >>> designed to solve. >>> >> >> RFC 4193 says about Global_ID allocation: >> >> The local assignments are self-generated and do not need any central >> coordination or assignment, but have an extremely high probability of >> being unique. >> >> > Are uSID values going to be entirely pseudo-random? > > " > > 3.2.1 . Locally Assigned Global IDs > > Locally assigned Global IDs MUST be generated with a pseudo-random > algorithm consistent with [RANDOM ]." > > > >> So in some the case operator may choose to make such "local assignment" >> of Global ID to be per router not per network. And that is all what is >> needed for uSID. uSID address blocks does not need to be continues. >> >> It also does not contradict with any RFC does it ? What breaks if I use >> more then one self generated Global ID in my network ? >> >> Note that the above question goes way beyond any SR related discussion so >> perhaps deserves a separate 6man thread. >> >> Best, >> R. >> >> --0000000000008a86500591900225 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Are uSID values going to be entir= ely pseudo-random?=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I see no reason why not = ...=C2=A0

Networks are managed by some form of NMS. NMS = can generate such values and abstract it with a "node_name_usid" = string for any additional processing and human abstraction.=C2=A0

If that is the only concern I think we are done then. The o= nly issue is that if you happen to have hierarchical IGP you will not be ab= le to summarize them - but I don't think that this would be a showstopp= er to any deployment.=C2=A0

Best,
R.=




On Mon, S= ep 2, 2019 at 12:24 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 17:58= Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi Mark,
=C2=A0
The uSID proposa= l is taking the position that all the bits after the high order prefix are = available for any purpose. This is not correct, and would violate a number = of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 Addressing Architecture RFC (RF= C 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193).

In particular, 40 bits of a ULA prefix, between /8 and /48,= the Gobal ID, must be pseudo random. This is the most critical property of= ULA addresses and prefixes, as it is the solution to the problem ULAs are = designed to solve.

RFC 4193 say= s about Global_ID allocation:=C2=A0

   The local assign=
ments are self-generated and do not need any central
   coordination or assignment, but have an extremely high probability of
   being unique.

Are uSID values going to be entirely = pseudo-random?

"
3.2.1.  Locally Assigned Global IDs


   Locally assigned Global IDs MUST be generated with a pseudo-random
   algorithm consistent with [RANDOM]."
<= br>

So in some the case operator may choose to make such &quo= t;local assignment" of Global ID to be per router not per network. And= that is all what is needed for uSID. uSID address blocks does not need to = be continues.=C2=A0

It also does not contradict wi= th any RFC does it ? What breaks if I use more then one self generated Glob= al ID in my network ?=C2=A0

Note that the above qu= estion goes way beyond any SR related discussion so perhaps deserves a sepa= rate 6man thread.=C2=A0

Best,
R.=C2=A0

--0000000000008a86500591900225-- From nobody Mon Sep 2 04:36:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1B312013D; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:36:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JfHkpKQpLHUf; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE3AB12011C; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id l2so10245954oil.0; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 04:36:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=y6MFaQWmNGhciicTtFGbuRQE7WPJbSyo0f6AuST09Lc=; b=kGiGnRKwTWCeT2JmAqdmP1LnvAs6ZtVhuvexJvNvXqXr/RbiQWsJyskqHsn0OQGZk9 xKmnNJ9/iCuT/FlQjCq0v47mPr3Uxz+UTJ0ommTDt9bukyHYaIW8aS4HdSIGFKTvTb5Y rzzanZJNahsrF8g2SwfLb2zvZdp+TkxxVwg+wr8VjtltlSae7lKrVOzN77svonJUVC1x ftp7lzPuoHfPNUfRaCU7yhHrrCzl2EAp75YI8mOUSQhCAgH1EwkYchh+n0nobNF1Rjug 8V2ojLV3j7MuJTDHNUmYuUvSCthVi+W+zaL9ZGMRTMNmRLSIzjoFMsFG52tIrBvtumg3 AB6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=y6MFaQWmNGhciicTtFGbuRQE7WPJbSyo0f6AuST09Lc=; b=ngLPbN9M23CfJ5gL2NoS0yt94Y3kl8QBxguT7GOZMP9dVYYw95JXZFo7+GwQ97yRMu XPKMxJZGA3VAVFtwDV8nzHP4K5zl0dP1clJZBDC2Bvi7pESqlB5V0whYByPvyxUOxerH iduST1hHmIzJj9aHUdHv92BiWBsk33/EY/Y18LlHD0yn3r3YPsMXmfXhrEumFA4enrML a53HjQ2DroMjnMX0TVU8DonsflL6WT4CvjFJjXIbgc7J1gi0rp8Z6sGHVgj8THIhFk3T PDEN7synWhFDeXLQpi34/zm1yxSiQvYzsQ2kmmSlLZeadlicOrkegqTdZK383soMuHUh /0FQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVmGvcwC26PTXMxkY9mGYD09PJVqB48ys3k7IZVML1mf/Janzck TYdSfx5mj17V5a19k33Stn8r+D2xorA48jZzpy4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzTVeVF7qUrKZr3rxr9wdHK97gZCMHHm/FsqWBBtGPSJb5F7oSc4070hOHNz6ept199yxTavAGa8PurKROJP8o= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5d82:: with SMTP id r124mr19044824oib.60.1567424207227; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 04:36:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 21:36:35 +1000 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Nick Hilliard , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000158ea505919063c5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 11:36:50 -0000 --000000000000158ea505919063c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 21:09 Robert Raszuk, wrote: > > > Are uSID values going to be entirely pseudo-random? > > I see no reason why not ... > > Networks are managed by some form of NMS. NMS can generate such values and > abstract it with a "node_name_usid" string for any additional processing > and human abstraction. > > If that is the only concern I think we are done then. > No. You haven't dealt with the other issues I've highlighted in the email link I provided earlier. As I pointed out there, I think the only place you can put uSIDs is in the IID field, and I went to the effort of providing RFC references. I'm getting off this merry go round. When SPRING comes up with an out of the ordinary idea, the first thing to do is check the IPv6 RFCs to see if they will accommodate the idea. This draft and the EH insertion draft show that this isn't and hasn't happened. The only issue is that if you happen to have hierarchical IGP you will not > be able to summarize them - but I don't think that this would be a > showstopper to any deployment. > > Best, > R. > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:24 PM Mark Smith wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 17:58 Robert Raszuk, wrote: >> >>> Hi Mark, >>> >>> >>>> The uSID proposal is taking the position that all the bits after the >>>> high order prefix are available for any purpose. This is not correct, and >>>> would violate a number of standards track RFCs, including the IPv6 >>>> Addressing Architecture RFC (RFC 4291) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193). >>>> >>>> In particular, 40 bits of a ULA prefix, between /8 and /48, the Gobal >>>> ID, must be pseudo random. This is the most critical property of ULA >>>> addresses and prefixes, as it is the solution to the problem ULAs are >>>> designed to solve. >>>> >>> >>> RFC 4193 says about Global_ID allocation: >>> >>> The local assignments are self-generated and do not need any central >>> coordination or assignment, but have an extremely high probability of >>> being unique. >>> >>> >> Are uSID values going to be entirely pseudo-random? >> >> " >> >> 3.2.1 . Locally Assigned Global IDs >> >> Locally assigned Global IDs MUST be generated with a pseudo-random >> algorithm consistent with [RANDOM ]." >> >> >> >>> So in some the case operator may choose to make such "local assignment" >>> of Global ID to be per router not per network. And that is all what is >>> needed for uSID. uSID address blocks does not need to be continues. >>> >>> It also does not contradict with any RFC does it ? What breaks if I use >>> more then one self generated Global ID in my network ? >>> >>> Note that the above question goes way beyond any SR related discussion >>> so perhaps deserves a separate 6man thread. >>> >>> Best, >>> R. >>> >>> --000000000000158ea505919063c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 21:09 Robert Raszuk, <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

> Are u= SID values going to be entirely pseudo-random?=C2=A0
=C2=A0
I see no reason why not ...=C2=A0

Networks are manag= ed by some form of NMS. NMS can generate such values and abstract it with a= "node_name_usid" string for any additional processing and human = abstraction.=C2=A0

If that is the only concern I t= hink we are done then.

No. You haven't dealt with the other iss= ues I've highlighted in the email link I provided earlier. As I pointed= out there, I think the only place you can put uSIDs is in the IID field, a= nd I went to the effort of providing RFC references.

I'm getting off this merry go round. When = SPRING comes up with an out of the ordinary idea, the first thing to do is = check the IPv6 RFCs to see if they will accommodate the idea.

This draft and the EH insertion draft= show that this isn't and hasn't happened.
= =C2=A0


The only issue is that if you happen to have hierarchical I= GP you will not be able to summarize them - but I don't think that this= would be a showstopper to any deployment.=C2=A0

Best,
R.





On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 12:24 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith= @gmail.com> wrote:


On Mon., 2 Sep. 2019, 17:58 Robert Raszuk, = <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi Mark,
=C2=A0
The uSID proposal is t= aking the position that all the bits after the high order prefix are availa= ble for any purpose. This is not correct, and would violate a number of sta= ndards track RFCs, including the IPv6 Addressing Architecture RFC (RFC 4291= ) and the ULA RFC (RFC 4193).

In particular, 40 bits of a ULA prefix, between /8 and /48, the G= obal ID, must be pseudo random. This is the most critical property of ULA a= ddresses and prefixes, as it is the solution to the problem ULAs are design= ed to solve.

RFC 4193 says abou= t Global_ID allocation:=C2=A0

   T=
he local assignments are self-generated and do not need any central
   coordination or assignment, but have an extremely high probability of
   being unique.

Are uSID values going to be entirely = pseudo-random?

"
3.2.1.  Locally Assigned Global IDs

   Locally assigned Global IDs MUST be generated with a pseudo-random
   algorithm consistent with [RANDOM]."
=


So in some the case operator may choos= e to make such "local assignment" of Global ID to be per router n= ot per network. And that is all what is needed for uSID. uSID address block= s does not need to be continues.=C2=A0

It also doe= s not contradict with any RFC does it ? What breaks if I use more then one = self generated Global ID in my network ?=C2=A0

Not= e that the above question goes way beyond any SR related discussion so perh= aps deserves a separate 6man thread.=C2=A0

Best,R.=C2=A0

--000000000000158ea505919063c5-- From nobody Mon Sep 2 04:49:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3370C120143 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:49:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9StI-X6N8Giq for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB3E612018D for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id g4so15306256qtq.7 for ; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 04:49:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K1U+p0iya9kehgtZAP5jfk4TfLYfplH8LtOM9zgykOE=; b=fHPIBt/3YSdUl2Su2bLFSpszLs71FU9sJvwo+Y0nAnGNteJf+rAwQkhU6S4KTqu0Yr WIu1ASm/GQm69PpzYOsQw+TwrHkCAcgs0sqWB97Feykl/8BM658Z8sOT5GctjXgsHZXY evQpBw6df0p6tCmsDlZtSA7Jeagz2ZAhGsaILN9SjADn2Tl5n9tgyE9XD0wmqlU8B8j1 urtiV6jIEPwazm8KEpHPmTsfHRs/UQ9788H3+fSgPxfAjaQXRzCXtiDY88ytRPcqLGlq DnUYBH9dsMXFj5k/RkAIR1R6r9vLqJKQYuOx+e5BywtxrRglg06C667wa5jtNZucbwJs NGxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K1U+p0iya9kehgtZAP5jfk4TfLYfplH8LtOM9zgykOE=; b=ser8RsGaXqJ/ZUuD3+Q4OeWwMuwCak07O6+LGyUaY8NWGgqIMrmjDGSaSJ4O3qa/N0 xzHVw/ktatt+FcRK+lPghaWXmPzcuIUF8xa1DyV5g8Aka3/kDuM5E+uv6pn/9oi5ZOb4 ygrs89dKYRiEPLvDy4CsyZsOG5mskB9ri1vJvxWAzHKwgA37qOJXGEa8/9v9iLQVsPst CcRoUxWzeHnl8hRLeDzpgktFgZRtKKWY2eF7h77laDQc+gp5YT9+QW16cDT1zgudkqTM pagW5czZ2H22IXRBD0HtNdXVAVObAXvz/pf8XuHlM2Y9/xR6zwSpaEwx4pngzj+XuJmw Dcxg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUcAP//WlbRI0ZO8M03UVyZQ1M0PlQkEW5UTni40LVNSzPagVNp yds1gGbmXTGv3Z9MOTgYFSRFcTjtbtulMZxOplGaUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyRYwC254pvtWRGeq/2fxDOaZPXxdT+g72UlcA/pH52JxQJLM6D5HLEjtg2vzKzaxL4BmPyX8vbE9jReQX0o0o= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2ae9:: with SMTP id c38mr7427455qta.311.1567424976951; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 04:49:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 13:49:25 +0200 Message-ID: To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Mark Smith , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6abff0591909022" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 11:49:40 -0000 --000000000000f6abff0591909022 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Nick, Yes you are 100% correct. The decision to inject any prefix into someone's IGP (or BGP) is a local operator's decision. Btw let me also self correct last note - It is actually pretty trivial to pseudo-random generate ULAs such that blocks of it can actually be aggregatable across areas or levels. It is just that such one time run generation perl or python script will run a little bit longer :) Cheers, R. On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:31 PM Nick Hilliard wrote: > Robert Raszuk wrote on 02/09/2019 12:09: > > If that is the only concern I think we are done then. The only issue is > > that if you happen to have hierarchical IGP you will not be able to > > summarize them - but I don't think that this would be a showstopper to > > any deployment. > > Robert, > > please correct me if I'm wrong but uSIDs would need to be injected into > the provider's routing tables, so your suggestion that ULAs would be > appropriate for the srv6-usid draft would be contingent on SRv6 > providers being ok about the idea of injecting ULAs into their core. > > I'm not sure that this would necessarily be the case. > > Nick > --000000000000f6abff0591909022 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Nick,

Yes you are 100%=C2= =A0correct.

The decision to inject any prefix into= someone's IGP (or BGP) is a local operator's decision.=C2=A0
=

Btw let me also self correct last note - It is actually= pretty trivial to pseudo-random generate ULAs such that blocks of it can a= ctually be aggregatable across areas or levels. It is just that such one ti= me run generation perl or python script will run a little bit longer :)=C2= =A0

Cheers,
R.

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 1:3= 1 PM Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
Ro= bert Raszuk wrote on 02/09/2019 12:09:
> If that is the only concern I think we are done then. The only issue i= s
> that if you happen to have hierarchical IGP you will not be able to > summarize them - but I don't think that this would be a showstoppe= r to
> any deployment.

Robert,

please correct me if I'm wrong but uSIDs would need to be injected into=
the provider's routing tables, so your suggestion that ULAs would be appropriate for the srv6-usid draft would be contingent on SRv6
providers being ok about the idea of injecting ULAs into their core.

I'm not sure that this would necessarily be the case.

Nick
--000000000000f6abff0591909022-- From nobody Mon Sep 2 04:58:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 556B2120110 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:58:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ywAjuV2gXjfh for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D13C6120052 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 04:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: fgont@si6networks.com Received: from crumpet.foobar.org (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x82BVO9P005391 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Sep 2019 12:31:25 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.foobar.org To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Mark Smith , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 12:31:23 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.18 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 11:58:35 -0000 Robert Raszuk wrote on 02/09/2019 12:09: > If that is the only concern I think we are done then. The only issue is > that if you happen to have hierarchical IGP you will not be able to > summarize them - but I don't think that this would be a showstopper to > any deployment. Robert, please correct me if I'm wrong but uSIDs would need to be injected into the provider's routing tables, so your suggestion that ULAs would be appropriate for the srv6-usid draft would be contingent on SRv6 providers being ok about the idea of injecting ULAs into their core. I'm not sure that this would necessarily be the case. Nick From nobody Mon Sep 2 05:09:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 121D9120119; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 05:09:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J2loyzCBv5B2; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 05:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com (mail-pl1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2BFD120110; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 05:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id o3so6512442plb.13; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 05:09:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=H18zBVf6c8l8nRnCSXuqTYYPfwAiaYLaqGi9nr4d/UU=; b=PrCU0mHl9l/zRf1bbyNQDxSs07aY8PV2mDgQg3ihncwwJyWc+5BIFcgFszxhEyoFKW JGivswvtGhI6Bjdkx/l2TSKAEqGUeaxzClPz0QnrhWt5z1BvF6SwYLWPYizDmGPq7MCl xSw6OKBjRyNA0bBBuLTcT870mayiNN2eVAGIU0o+0UO/POCJuvzbHF6SToJwL7t5PBFC a1AEtf+gumpWg0BGvrWbSuHAls1aVUg97jM5q81UZeEMSHR1BtKxzfMHbc1tQPzvUBj9 3KTrxx2CVZv+qiUHoSRFr48oCryBnIDrBiW/+pczgMsjKO2Y8zSRBbPDORXfVYUaR93m YFrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H18zBVf6c8l8nRnCSXuqTYYPfwAiaYLaqGi9nr4d/UU=; b=AVb8pqLazpj+kzv21ZowpBzaIKX/EsRykFH4RlQuiohzPA+F61wSo2k2EnpIT048Bs Si4dgrwmCH69HB0lY9dkW6EILy0d+f8lrPnK6Ujq2JJZcPsVXq0bucjT1OMcruQCUHNL 0vsIKpAX03WFHZ2NwVbDVYQgPnWuSVUFGC/yfXKjC57Va0zFu7Scz1aq3tR8HfP9D3ZU WTiJGxewDovfl0/3KxxnfHHIBMbfFurWdXiNQbMcNWxy+CnNv+ktDekHPl+3818aIJfz OhUndHJj8hRpf0qTDNzaBE+QLbHHErZfuHDnfh4r/crn6BTuoptQxhamdHD5BZG93q4l NL2A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX1Db19Tbwr4nhcruueeAX2VHtdRzozSns73up0av90342Ek5Vj EVMd/3no9lMKxrGcV5HJJX/7oQjwfs249qHLwmQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzYdRLjDBnmuyNnpvkdWPgs1DoN3KyqFDMGmH4TT2Vi1zaKAdIsfbrda5fSZ8g3gFT+OQZXq+Nz8isGsYgOPJM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b110:: with SMTP id q16mr1219011plr.50.1567426151888; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 05:09:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 14:09:00 +0200 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir , Fernando Gont Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000febbca059190d65b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 12:09:14 -0000 --000000000000febbca059190d65b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Mark, I think the only place you can put uSIDs is in the IID field, and I went > to the effort of providing RFC references. > I only tend to follow the rules which make sense or which violation even if they do not make sense goes against best practices, common rules or could endanger anyone or anything. RFCs you quote do not limit numer of ULAs to be one per network or even one per person - so I am not breaking any RFC if I use bunch of ULAs as it seems fit. When SPRING comes up with an out of the ordinary idea > This is far beyond SPRING topic. Operators and end users use RFC1918 everywhere as it gives them freedom and flexibility to construct their networks the way they like it. Sufficiently flexible min /8 private range must be made available for anyone's use if you want to see wider IPv6 adoption. And /8 as proven is not about need for 2^112 addresses - it's about constructing your network applications with well though addressing structure and hierarchy. This draft and the EH insertion draft show that this isn't and hasn't > happened. > I am not going to comment on the insertion part beyond the observation that when you apply new IPv6 header you are free to insert whatever you like into it. Likewise per RFC8200 when I see myself in destination address field of the outer IPv6 header I can process, insert or delete EHs as it seems fit. Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) *identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header.* I do not see any stretch of it in any SPRING related document. Best, R. --000000000000febbca059190d65b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Mark,

=C2=A0I t= hink the only place you can put uSIDs is in the IID field, and I went to th= e effort of providing RFC references.

I only tend to follow the rules which make sense = or which violation even if they do not make sense goes against best=C2=A0pr= actices, common rules or could endanger anyone or anything. RFCs you quote = do not limit numer of ULAs to be one per network or even one per person - s= o I am not breaking any RFC if I use bunch of ULAs as it seems fit.=C2=A0

=
When SPRING comes up with an out of the= ordinary idea

This is far beyond SPRING topic. Operators and end users use RFC19= 18 everywhere as it gives them freedom and flexibility to construct their= =C2=A0networks the way they like it. Sufficiently flexible min /8 private r= ange must be made available for anyone's use if you want to see wider I= Pv6 adoption. And /8 as proven is not about need for 2^112 addresses - it&#= 39;s about constructing your network applications with well though addressi= ng structure and hierarchy.

This draft and the EH insertion draft show that= this isn't and hasn't happened.
<= br>
I am not going to comment on the insertion= part beyond the observation that when you apply new IPv6 header you are fr= ee to insert whatever you like into it. Likewise per RFC8200 when I see mys= elf in destination address field of the outer IPv6 header I can process, in= sert or delete EHs as it seems fit.=C2=A0

   =
Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not
   processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's deliver=
y
   path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes,
   in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field
   of the IPv6 header.

I do not see any stretch of it in any SPRING related document.=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small">
Best,
R.

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Mon, 2 Sep 2019 12:26:01 +0000 From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" CC: Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: AQHVSwg6/I5kr4eMrkKElcNso1ybo6cUzIWAgAOwk7M= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 12:26:00 +0000 Message-ID: <67F3352B-A3E2-43AE-AAE4-ADD00BC7AB2B@cisco.com> References: , <53E6C388-6DF1-42CF-A97D-98D248AB6CED@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <53E6C388-6DF1-42CF-A97D-98D248AB6CED@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ddukes@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [24.114.86.174] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: bd4c45ab-9f3a-4cc4-56ad-08d72fa0b737 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:BN7PR11MB2817; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN7PR11MB2817: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 7 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 01480965DA x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(346002)(39860400002)(366004)(396003)(136003)(376002)(199004)(189003)(4326008)(71190400001)(6486002)(966005)(6862004)(66066001)(25786009)(8676002)(6246003)(81166006)(229853002)(6512007)(236005)(5660300002)(6306002)(54896002)(8936002)(14454004)(478600001)(81156014)(6636002)(6436002)(66556008)(37006003)(53936002)(53386004)(54906003)(316002)(256004)(2616005)(476003)(66946007)(446003)(36756003)(14444005)(486006)(2906002)(86362001)(26005)(76116006)(102836004)(99286004)(53546011)(606006)(186003)(6116002)(3846002)(790700001)(7736002)(91956017)(6506007)(71200400001)(66446008)(33656002)(64756008)(11346002)(66476007)(76176011); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BN7PR11MB2817; H:BN7PR11MB2594.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Eicb+UkC34p/NI1VTaxoa16jehS7C+GRNJjNYsgFEeSLN5yvtSdDozUnqnozcRsaOWfIgQu34np4Cfj3HaAXvbBsVD2xoppxuJ90ABDBzYzryzgTYzcBDp53NZg4rZiG5J/y5FWxQlU5MsDhoLP6Q3s0lVVi8iEO0cxPurcF9sl6gStd6lNB2JqzbpCAPG1Xbq7liBTggAg5dWqRxccfEWiIMt1wTJbfEvx/KRqsSAA83M4XCUUCsstUVYzoc+fyxSwAfr9XjI/QUbFG3ezTaz4VlJPiyRthcXYWA3LUE94qN5prv5HG6KJUTT6WvIyjt1PK899u0ZdVZI+mI/ZiicQLs2bqkSGYxkQjr4vOolMwUFPGUZZjFVHK6s0pMJ5VekWLmF6HlG6PNfzFD/Nk5mY7SB4Mt8CJR3tEZC2/EqI= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_67F3352BA3E243AEAAE4ADD00BC7AB2Bciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bd4c45ab-9f3a-4cc4-56ad-08d72fa0b737 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 02 Sep 2019 12:26:00.9515 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OLnciKCYNLuBdwkcrUZxgd6Ypo0lNKBINoIzYRqagkxoGeBBhYdCRtlC+sD4/IsX7+goEdlODKRHaG8Vu9lY4g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR11MB2817 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.27, xch-aln-017.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 13:23:06 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB54632F09C712ADB30138CFA9AEBE0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rob, There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing.... Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architecture = that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in Routi= ng headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv= 6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery,= its specification promises it be painless and its deployment promises to b= e safe. To date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+= . Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those= claims may require scrutiny). By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 arc= hitecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been encoded i= n IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routi= ng header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn't exist. It frequent= ly tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy require= s another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 addresses= , draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-sprin= g-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM informati= on is encoded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined= , even when Segment Left is equal to zero. I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact. So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more conservative,= SRv6+ approach? This brings us to the back to the elephant in the room...= .. Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 exte= nsion headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension headers a= t all, it was sent to the slow path. SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and Destination= Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a path towards mor= e complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has d= eveloped so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more = and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs. SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, whil= e doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destination Opt= ions in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. Howeve= r, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for t= he IETF. = Ron From: spring On Behalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB54632F09C712ADB30138CFA9AEBE0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Rob,

 

There may be an elephant in the room that needs addr= essing….

 

Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a v= ery tight architecture that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, oth= er information in Routing headers, and still other information in Destinati= on Options headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery, its speci= fication promises it be painless and its deployment promises to be safe. To= date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+. Only= a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those claims may require scrutiny).

 

By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the= letter of the IPv6 architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that ha= ve never been encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode every= thing else in the Routing header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn’t exist. It frequently t= ests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance.

 

This creates a situation in which each variance from= IPv6 orthodoxy requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instruc= tions in IPv6 addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And no= w, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM information is enco= ded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined, even whe= n Segment Left is equal to zero.

 

I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID wil= l interact.

 

So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on= the more conservative, SRv6+ approach?  This brings us to the bac= k to the elephant in the room…..

 

Until very recently, relatively few router vendors h= ave supported IPv6 extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained = any extension headers at all, it was sent to the slow path.

 

SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both = the Routing and Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a= path on a path towards more complete implementation of the architecture th= at the IPv6 community has developed so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more and more of= RFC 8200 to ASICs.

 

SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routin= g header in ASICs, while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to = support Destination Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for= many platforms. However, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for the IETF.

 

         &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =          Ron

 

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IET= F has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Ro= uting for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.= =

 

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.

    •  

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

     

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

     

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. 

     

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno

     

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB54632F09C712ADB30138CFA9AEBE0BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Mon Sep 2 07:25:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C347120147 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 07:25:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eL2jR8fbB2Ed for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 07:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA4-Wyn.bell.ca (esa4-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCF9F120145 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 07:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm5czo-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.33]) by esa04corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 02 Sep 2019 10:24:55 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120b::8eb6:120b) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 10:24:55 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::c426:98cc:c3a7:f8d2]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::c426:98cc:c3a7:f8d2%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 10:24:55 -0400 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: Dirk Steinberg , SPRING WG List , Rob Shakir Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: AQHVX7FVURtPZ7klb0ubjZe6ZJaO0acXJHaAgAFQhwA= Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 14:24:55 +0000 Message-ID: <4F025F72-7F3A-4E5C-9C93-44A18E121974@bell.ca> References: <53E6C388-6DF1-42CF-A97D-98D248AB6CED@cisco.com> <9A655231-45C5-4852-831E-72EC33151F03@lapishills.com> In-Reply-To: <9A655231-45C5-4852-831E-72EC33151F03@lapishills.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1c.0.190812 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4F025F727F3A4E5C9C9344A18E121974bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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(PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D751120110 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 07:28:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: fgont@si6networks.com Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x82EEZmc024623 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 2 Sep 2019 15:14:35 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Mark Smith , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont References: <160e947d-790e-67fb-3366-fdc5f1d34f8c@foobar.org> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <4826bf17-7263-690a-8c61-1c5a27641ab6@foobar.org> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 15:14:33 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.18 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 14:28:34 -0000 Robert Raszuk wrote on 02/09/2019 12:49: > Yes you are 100% correct. > > The decision to inject any prefix into someone's IGP (or BGP) is a local > operator's decision. It is, and most operators take pains to avoid injecting shared addressing resources into their routing domains. These days it usually relates to policy, but that policy is rooted in the painful reality that building infrastructure intended for second or third party tenancy on the basis of overlapping number resources is something that can and will cause catastrophic architectural problems once clashes occur. So again, I suggest that if it's the intention for the draft to proceed, the authors will need to reach out to RIR policy working groups because the additional number resource requirements required do not fit in with the current ipv6 resource assignment and allocation policies currently in place. Nick From nobody Mon Sep 2 09:04:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB48E1200D5 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 09:04:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ojSFS8agitxs for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 09:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com [207.82.80.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45DB5120088 for ; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 09:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur01lp2058.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.0.58]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-188-c0_GZdD4NeKU1oykyykc4g-1; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 17:02:47 +0100 Received: from VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.112.208) by VE1PR03MB5312.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.112.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2199.21; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 16:02:46 +0000 Received: from VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c456:2d7a:c516:486c]) by VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c456:2d7a:c516:486c%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2199.021; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 16:02:46 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: Nick Hilliard , Robert Raszuk CC: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Mark Smith , Rob Shakir , Fernando Gont Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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[45.19.110.76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l85sm3047626ywl.30.2019.09.02.09.07.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Sep 2019 09:07:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Suresh Krishnan Message-Id: <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A70B20EC-F452-4F0A-B026-3C28ED159057" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 12:07:20 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> Cc: Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" To: Fernando Gont References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 16:07:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A70B20EC-F452-4F0A-B026-3C28ED159057 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Fernando, > On Aug 31, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Fernando Gont = wrote: >=20 > On 30/8/19 20:24, Ron Bonica wrote: >> Li, >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> In the scenarios that you mention, below, SRv6 nodes have the = following >> options: >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> 1. To prepend and IPv6 header, with its own SRH >> 2. To insert an SRH, as described below >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Option 1 is in keeping with the word and spirit of RFC 8200. As you >> point out, Option 2 contradicts RFC 8200. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the >> motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on = Option 1. >=20 > My argument would be: > Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they feel the > need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*, post an > internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for the > insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published, and only > then suggest to do EH insertion. I have put down my thoughts on the future of header insertion work in a = mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be found below https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizhoT5Rl-TjRc = >=20 > P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in = the > context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf = document > suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs > make sure that's not the case anymore. Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, I = will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are fixed. Thanks Suresh --Apple-Mail=_A70B20EC-F452-4F0A-B026-3C28ED159057 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Fernando,

On Aug 31, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Fernando Gont = <fernando@gont.com.ar> wrote:

On = 30/8/19 20:24, Ron Bonica wrote:
Li,

 

In the scenarios that you mention, below, SRv6 nodes have the = following
options:

 

1. To prepend and IPv6 header, with its own = SRH
2. To insert an SRH, as described below

 

Option 1 = is in keeping with the word and spirit of RFC 8200. As you
point out, Option 2 contradicts RFC 8200.

 

So, we should probably = explore the motivation for Option 2). If the
motivation is = not sufficient, we should probably standardize on Option 1.

My argument would be:
Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they = feel the
need to do 2), they should *refrain from even = suggesting it*, post an
internet draft that proposes to = update RFC8200 to allow for the
insertion of EHs, wait for = that to be adopted and published, and only
then suggest to = do EH insertion.

I have put down my thoughts on the future of = header insertion work in a mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail = can be found below




P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there = has been on this topic in the
context of RFC8200, I'd like = to hope that there's no draft-ietf document
suggesting = EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs
make sure that's not the case anymore.

Yes. = If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, I will = certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are fixed.

Thanks
Suresh

= --Apple-Mail=_A70B20EC-F452-4F0A-B026-3C28ED159057-- From nobody Mon Sep 2 10:10:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2FF120143; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 10:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7sQOH-HHaDSX; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 10:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D801112013D; Mon, 2 Sep 2019 10:09:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id d25so27793992iob.6; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 10:09:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dMytrujMtyl57cZ2gU7x/D11vI+WFB3ro8FqP5+3dEo=; b=a9wBf7dF3sz2OsZIx9QCc6ThXXmVSMpk9aghTr4FxaJj7evscVW3IqDWNcscRZ98Pu Ayfx/FkjXk6FUaJy55Au/VsYa2f8rSayLKgjMAjomfefcAq1Z8tMgwuH4y09G6lqObjv wFU1muuM3h0wtD9sqe8c47M0OfNyOi6OoALSjN7E4QlqbDKadxbPlHv5xAwaIMlgyPpQ cxc9C/dj1YIgjnP7/P16XY12CEgWdchH91kA4Zzk9OmDc4E33zfnltmUEwX9PdiUanMw hOIpNrDhGT6DTYmrE6BD2mK4Ad72js+TOdctrtQ+h5M71cAIbt/mjs25LkxiSQzbOHtB T43A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dMytrujMtyl57cZ2gU7x/D11vI+WFB3ro8FqP5+3dEo=; b=BjzZY6FshBvadZVHlpkUBFudjxedtDqH7admvS+kDbr+G1+v6pY6zDeq5vZudJiwIk 0agFgH+v0WCdqlNMkkpQ20e/x8fiMXh/B8JHQt82AREx76aWOLAuulnvcyve//vdIRrO AcyqrF5I4kaKfBJncK5nCGsvA/mugE5qUsyiLnMzHwk6LVk2qE3vs9Kl90BvSu1atZak 0w0RoauZ60XWmuwknNUTiHnaVea75u7n6D6HL3CWpg/VH77UAWLn/3Ij83pceTv9r165 ZkPs+BsfqKeS9VEhK5uSR+uFSxwKs/n+XTxQJ+6HMa8zvyLtWANeVPDZEfyYxs8dHnEr lPEw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXkVJwKL+xLP+/ogUJ0Q8beUyeVNM9s2uaOkn+RxR7lSxT1T7ha z6AyAF16droqyle/ba2jbrEAUv1V9gV2Zpwhyhs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzG3fP5CdKZ32blpuK1KAXBNurugdiRoeFvINxidbb9pVbAFeFNlplcnWo+OJQdx1I0OYGGfUC8UnWuW51GwaU= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c88e:: with SMTP id y136mr26461930iof.68.1567444197090; Mon, 02 Sep 2019 10:09:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> From: Ca By Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2019 10:09:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: Suresh Krishnan Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000092af160591950ae9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2019 17:10:00 -0000 --00000000000092af160591950ae9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 9:07 AM Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > On Aug 31, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Fernando Gont wrote: > > On 30/8/19 20:24, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Li, > > > > In the scenarios that you mention, below, SRv6 nodes have the following > options: > > > > 1. To prepend and IPv6 header, with its own SRH > 2. To insert an SRH, as described below > > > > Option 1 is in keeping with the word and spirit of RFC 8200. As you > point out, Option 2 contradicts RFC 8200. > > > > So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the > motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on Option 1. > > > My argument would be: > Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they feel the > need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*, post an > internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for the > insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published, and only > then suggest to do EH insertion. > > > I have put down my thoughts on the future of header insertion work in a > mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be found below > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizhoT5Rl-TjRc > > > > P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in the > context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf document > suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs > make sure that's not the case anymore. > > > Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, I > will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are fixed. > > Thanks > Suresh > Thanks. It sounds to me the the SR folks are re-inventing NSH in ipv6. The internet layer is a narrow waist. My humble opinion is SR has the same real market traction as LISP and NSH, meaning very niche, but loud. They should look at publishing in the experimental track before asking for the world. Regards, Cameron > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --00000000000092af160591950ae9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 9:07 AM Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com> wro= te:
Hi Fernando,

On Aug 31, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar> = wrote:

<= div>
On 30/8/19 20:24, Ron Bonica wrote:
L= i,

=C2=A0

In the scenarios that you mention, below, SRv6 node= s have the following
options:

=C2=A0

1. To prepend and IP= v6 header, with its own SRH
2. To insert an SRH, as described below
=
=C2=A0

Option 1 is in keeping with the word and spirit of RFC 82= 00. As you
point out, Option 2 contradicts RFC 8200.

=C2=A0
So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the
mo= tivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on Option 1.
=

My argument would be:
Folks would do whatever they plea= se with 1). If somehow they feel the
need to do 2), they should *refrain= from even suggesting it*, post an
internet draft that proposes to updat= e RFC8200 to allow for the
insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted= and published, and only
then suggest to do EH insertion.

I have put down my thoughts on the future= of header insertion work in a mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail = can be found below

=



P.S.:= Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in the
cont= ext of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf documen= t
suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairsmake sure that's not the case anymore.

Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG fo= r evaluation, I will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations= are fixed.

Thanks
Suresh

Thanks. It sounds = to me the the SR folks are re-inventing NSH in ipv6.=C2=A0

The internet layer is a narrow waist.=C2= =A0

My humble opinion is= SR has the same real market traction as =C2=A0LISP and NSH, meaning very n= iche, but loud.=C2=A0

Th= ey should look at publishing in the experimental track before asking for th= e world.=C2=A0

Regards,<= /div>
Cameron






------------------------------------------------------------= --------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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RCBoZW5jZSBsZXNzIFNJRCBtYXkgYmUgcmVxdWlyZWQuDQoNCg== --_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D8F696571DGGEMM532MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Folks,

I have explained opinions in the session meeting of IETF104. Here I woul= d like to summarize it agian:

1. Problem Statement

There are three three major concerns about SRH:

1) Path MTU: In theory it may be an issue. But as the develoment of the = link layer technology, the network administrators always configure the MTU = as the size of Jambo Frame (That is up to 9000B) to prevent unnecessar= y problems. Even without SRv6 they already do like this way. So the MTU is not a big issue in the current network.

2) Payload efficiency: According to the statistics information from CAID= A and other sources, the average packet size is above 512B. When introduce = 3-5 SRv6 segment ,the decreas of payload efficiency is under control.&= nbsp;We do not think in a short time we will need up to 10 or 10+ segments which is only theoretic or to exten= sively use SRv6 segment.

3) Forwarding efficiency: Huawei product already supports up to 10 = layers of segments for SRv6 SRH. I believe more hardware can support enough= segments in a short time which is faster than the standardization process = for the new encapsulation.

 

Besides above fact in the existing network, we can also take SR-MPLS as = the example. Five years ago, people also worried about such issues. After 5= years we can learn what happens which is much less serious than = what was concerned.

 

2. Solutions

According to the analysis of the problem statement, for the possible sol= utions I have following suggesions:

1) The price should be low. Compressing is just optimizaiton and will no= t add new services. We need not introduce a new set of control plane and fo= rwarding plane extensions which will take a long time for standardization.&= nbsp;That is the reason why we proposed the C-SRH (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 ). We think its price is low enough since it will not change the existin= g control plane of SRv6. Even so we still think Binding SID should be the f= irst choice. It is simplest and more mature after the verication in SR-MPLS= .

2) Avoid the repeated work: After a long work the solutions based o= n SRH is already mature. Firstly we should avoid a new set of protocol exte= nsions. Secondly if there is concern on the size of IPv6 dataplane whi= ch may be caused by strict TE or SFC, it is uncessary to repeat work on VPN, OAM, etc.

 

 

Thinking about the comming IGP/BGP/PCEP/BESS/6MAN/etc. work on the topic= , in order to avoid the possible waste on the standarization effort and we = already learned much from the discussion on the problem statement and requi= rement, we could have a draft to consolidate them as a base firstly for further discussion, then begin= to do possible protocol work.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: spring [spring-bounces= @ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Rob Shakir [robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org] =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2019=C4=EA8=D4=C25=C8=D5 5:03
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: SPRING WG List
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

Hi SPRING WG,


Over the last 5+ years, the= IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and= IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or= GRE.


These encapsulations are past W= G last call (in IESG or RFC Editor).


During the SPRING WG meeting at= IETF 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane:


During the IETF week, two addit= ional drafts have been proposed:


As we expressed during the meet= ing, it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impor= tant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirem= ents for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspecti= ve of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of the software/hardware imple= mentation.


Therefore, we would like to sol= icit network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE)<= /span>

  • forwarding performance and scaling requirements

    • e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number o= f SID required in max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-= bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).

  • if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in= their circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is needed fo= r the short term only or for the long term.


As well as deployment limitatio= ns, we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which li= mit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the n= umber of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of sho= rter SIDs would improve the deployments .


For both of these sets of feedb= ack if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it di= rectly to the chairs & AD (Martin).


This call for information will = run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. 


Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno


(*) As expressed on the mailing= list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required.


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--_000_BYAPR05MB54639033C12A9FC41FA27845AEBE0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cameron, I hear you. SRv6+ will try to limit its ask to the following: * Enough community review to make sure that we aren't doing anything da= ngerous * Four code points (i.e., two IPv6 Routing types and two IPv6 options) * One registry (i.e., Special purpose SIDs) Beyond that, we will try to keep the noise to a minimum. Ron From: Ca By Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 1:10 PM To: Suresh Krishnan Cc: 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont ; Ron Bonica ; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming ; draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-in= sertion ; spring@ietf= .org Subject: Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 9:07 AM Suresh Krishnan > wrote: Hi Fernando, On Aug 31, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Fernando Gont > wrote: On 30/8/19 20:24, Ron Bonica wrote: Li, In the scenarios that you mention, below, SRv6 nodes have the following options: 1. To prepend and IPv6 header, with its own SRH 2. To insert an SRH, as described below Option 1 is in keeping with the word and spirit of RFC 8200. As you point out, Option 2 contradicts RFC 8200. So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on Option 1. My argument would be: Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they feel the need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*, post an internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for the insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published, and only then suggest to do EH insertion. I have put down my thoughts on the future of header insertion work in a mai= l to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be found below https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizhoT5Rl-TjRc P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in the context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf document suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs make sure that's not the case anymore. Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, I wil= l certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are fixed. Thanks Suresh Thanks. It sounds to me the the SR folks are re-inventing NSH in ipv6. The internet layer is a narrow waist. My humble opinion is SR has the same real market traction as LISP and NSH,= meaning very niche, but loud. They should look at publishing in the experimental track before asking for = the world. Regards, Cameron -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB54639033C12A9FC41FA27845AEBE0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cameron,

 

I hear you. SRv6+ will try to limit its ask to t= he following:

 

  • Enough community review to make sure that we aren’t doing anyth= ing dangerous
  • Four code points (i.e., two IPv6 Routing= types and two IPv6 options)
  • One registry (i.e., Speci= al purpose SIDs)

 

Beyond that, we will try to keep the noise to a mini= mum.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;        Ron

 

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;

 

From: Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 1:10 PM
To: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar>; Ron B= onica <rbonica@juniper.net>; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi= ng <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>; draft-voyer= -6man-extension-header-insertion <draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-inse= rtion@ietf.org>; spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function

 

 

 

On Mon, Sep 2, 2019 at 9:07 AM Suresh Krishnan <<= a href=3D"mailto:suresh.krishnan@gmail.com">suresh.krishnan@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

Hi Fernando,

 

On Aug 31, 2019, at 10:09 AM, Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar<= /a>> wrote:

 

On 30/8/19 20:24, Ron= Bonica wrote:

Li,

 

In the scenarios that you mention, below, SRv6 nodes have the following
options:

 

1. To prepend and IPv6 header, with its own SRH
2. To insert an SRH, as described below

 

Option 1 is in keeping with the word and spirit of RFC 8200. As you
point out, Option 2 contradicts RFC 8200.

 

So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the
motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on Option 1.


My argument would be:
Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they feel the
need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*, post an
internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for the
insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published, and only
then suggest to do EH insertion.

 

I have put down my thoughts on the future of header = insertion work in a mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be foun= d below

 

 

 


P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in the context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf document suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs
make sure that's not the case anymore.

 

Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IES= G for evaluation, I will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violat= ions are fixed.

 

Thanks

Suresh

 

Thanks. It sounds to me the the SR folks are re-inve= nting NSH in ipv6. 

 

The internet layer is a narrow waist. 

 

My humble opinion is SR has the same real market tra= ction as  LISP and NSH, meaning very niche, but loud. =

 

They should look at publishing in the experimental t= rack before asking for the world. 

 

Regards,

Cameron

 

 

 

 

 

 

----------------------------------------------------= ----------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 04:35:57 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB4024F2687160F80A59B7D906DFB90BYAPR05MB4024namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Completely agree with Ron. SRv6+ is much more simpler , minimum config required and easy to implement= . Regards Parag Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Ron Bonica Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 2:04 AM To: Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Rob, The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: * Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists * Operational Simplicity * SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists ---------------------------------------------------- SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that contai= n 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implementations= to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive overhead bandwid= th. SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy = these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 wo= uld require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at = line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required to= make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is clos= e to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mat= ure and should be given equal consideration. The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. Operational Simplicity ----------------------------- Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely interpretin= g (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 = introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The = following are architectural quirks of draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-head= er: * The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. = Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the leas= t-cost path from source to destination * The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. * The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and h= ow it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains o= ne locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular= way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instan= tiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural qui= rks. For example: * Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers * An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers * IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Hea= der Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the S= RH is followed by Ethernet payload. Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For example,= in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH= even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overl= oaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires net= work operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a parti= cular way to make routing work. SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work -------------------------------------------------------- SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Imp= lementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. = For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It's just IPv6 and= IPv6 OAM just works. Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of = RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won't= need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stret= ching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8= 200. = Thanks, = Ron From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB4024F2687160F80A59B7D906DFB90BYAPR05MB4024namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Completely agree with Ron.

 

SRv6+ is much more simpler ,  minimum confi= g required and easy to implement.

 

Regards

Parag

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2019 2:04 AM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; SPRING W= G List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Rob,

 

The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6= +:

 

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operati= onal Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6<= o:p>

 

Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists<= /p>

----------------------------------------------------=

 

SR customers have stated a firm requirement to suppo= rt SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirem= ent for implementations to forward at line speed  and without consumin= g excessive overhead bandwidth.

 

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-= header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path w= ith 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could proc= ess such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.

 

Therefore, one of the four solutions  that you = mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-se= gment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions men= tioned below are equally mature and should be given equal consideration.

 

The four solutions are SRv6+, u= SID, draft-li and draft-mirsky.

 

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------

Network operators strive for operational simplicity.= By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4= 291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce opera= tional complexity. The following are architectural quirks of  draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:=

 

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. = Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the leas= t-cost path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the= IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
  • The IPv6= destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it is proce= ssed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one locally ins= tantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, while if the IPv6 destination ad= dress contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally= invalid.

 

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming  pro= mises more architectural quirks. For example:

 

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
  • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example,= the Next Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even= though the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload.

 

Other emerging drafts promise still more architectur= al quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations = need to examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because= the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information.

 

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address space and number th= eir networks in a particular way to make routing work.

 

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work

---------------------= -----------------------------------

SRv6+  has been implemented on LINUX and is= being implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that sp= ecification is fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6&#= 43; OAM document. It’s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.

 

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to = a strict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through th= e working group, they won’t need to overcome the objections that are = inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200.

 

         &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =      Thanks,

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =          Ron

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IET= F has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Ro= uting for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.= =

 

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.

    •  

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

     

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

     

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. 

     

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno

     

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

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Thread-Index: AQHVSwgtZntk1bljyUGhwmBQu2Uz36cYjQIAgAFlS5A= Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 10:43:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=rbonica@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2019-09-02T13:22:56.0554076Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=Juniper Business Use Only; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=eb8da43e-0588-4401-bebc-8673f296ebda; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.2.0.14 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [116.197.184.10] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9bac7e2e-2eb3-42f3-567b-08d7305b8a83 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:SN6PR05MB4141; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR05MB4141: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 6 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 01494FA7F7 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(396003)(376002)(136003)(366004)(39860400002)(346002)(199004)(189003)(14454004)(561944003)(33656002)(6246003)(76176011)(71190400001)(478600001)(966005)(71200400001)(186003)(7696005)(316002)(53546011)(6506007)(8936002)(66574012)(8676002)(110136005)(81166006)(81156014)(26005)(99286004)(7736002)(14444005)(236005)(606006)(74316002)(102836004)(229853002)(86362001)(2501003)(6306002)(54896002)(66556008)(66446008)(9686003)(55016002)(64756008)(6436002)(66476007)(5660300002)(486006)(2906002)(76116006)(446003)(6116002)(256004)(25786009)(790700001)(3846002)(476003)(66066001)(52536014)(53936002)(66946007)(11346002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:SN6PR05MB4141; H:SN6PR05MB3950.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: oEK8IQJjpKvA4X4au+KZh5KZ2UImMhyRES7Is3qtjGuAewSvmpkrYctkQNlq3EE+/RiMWXmlwpnLyNqtWAtOSbYMsvOTdn9vds00eSpvDBVtWOKhtV53gkSQEnJAZcV0mPBmcfrDSu8wQ9zQWHzY+WktuGPHneHrz7Xqa58iYLLHeT5bS30jxe+ggrjWSwKYAiOMSnTb7HIxSzRRftVu50WviwhJnBsBztGJq0G1EJ0ERJw8eYbEHbfvYtA1T95UOnMj0J8BNB6OtApiOUR98YdYd5czDw/jma6p+J5LHEeuAhenQfLKiinTBX0sbL4tDRAuzpv1wcA5av3E8yBhycDrnQC0ChGp8R0kBHTe+JG5Ow+xeHgCuX9bxgu1zW/zhtpwzEokuaaqbQBJKTpLMbQZ8hDzuef4YTwQVHZlsRQ= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_SN6PR05MB3950E186FB6B6FE0F9074BB5D5B90SN6PR05MB3950namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9bac7e2e-2eb3-42f3-567b-08d7305b8a83 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Sep 2019 10:43:21.9815 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ltnmlAYI5vwTkx3c0F77ADf8N7Btk+fEjjHhXcV71MjXPgekQ/VsyQXA12Z5a/rS+9P1JTlrLXkiP7MimGkq4Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR05MB4141 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-03_01:2019-09-03,2019-09-03 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1011 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909030111 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 10:43:30 -0000 --_000_SN6PR05MB3950E186FB6B6FE0F9074BB5D5B90SN6PR05MB3950namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SPRING WG, SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms 1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture 2.Efficient encoding 3.Operational simplicity There hasn't been a single mail denying the above advantages of SRv6+ The only argument has been the SRv6 in its present form has been deployed by a couple of operators and a handful interested in it. u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but the addressing architecture isn't very clear. Deploying this solution in a running network hasn't been explained. There is clearly interest in the operator community for a better solutio= n and I support SPRING WG to continue work on SRv6+. Rgds Shraddha From: spring On Behalf Of Ron Bonica Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM To: Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Rob, There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing.... Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architecture = that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in Routi= ng headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv= 6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery,= its specification promises it be painless and its deployment promises to b= e safe. To date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+= . Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those= claims may require scrutiny). By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 arc= hitecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been encoded i= n IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routi= ng header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn't exist. It frequent= ly tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy require= s another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 addresses= , draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-sprin= g-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM informati= on is encoded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined= , even when Segment Left is equal to zero. I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact. So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more conservative,= SRv6+ approach? This brings us to the back to the elephant in the room...= .. Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 exte= nsion headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension headers a= t all, it was sent to the slow path. SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and Destination= Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a path towards mor= e complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has d= eveloped so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more = and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs. SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, whil= e doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destination Opt= ions in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. Howeve= r, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for t= he IETF. = Ron From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_SN6PR05MB3950E186FB6B6FE0F9074BB5D5B90SN6PR05MB3950namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

SPRING WG,

 

SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms

   1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture

   2.Efficient encoding

   3.Operational simplicity

 

   There hasn't been a single mail denying= the above advantages of SRv6+

   The only argument has been the SRv6 in = its present form has been

   deployed by a couple of operators and a= handful interested in it.

 

   u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but = the addressing architecture

   isn't very clear. Deploying this soluti= on in a running network

   hasn't been explained.

 

   There is clearly interest in the operat= or community for a better solution and

   I support SPRING WG to continue work on= SRv6+.

 

 

Rgds

Shraddha

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; SPRING W= G List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Rob,

 

There may be an elephant in the room that needs addr= essing….

 

Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a v= ery tight architecture that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, oth= er information in Routing headers, and still other information in Destinati= on Options headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery, its speci= fication promises it be painless and its deployment promises to be safe. To= date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+. Only= a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those claims may require scrutiny).

 

By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the= letter of the IPv6 architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that ha= ve never been encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode every= thing else in the Routing header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn’t exist. It frequently t= ests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance.

 

This creates a situation in which each variance from= IPv6 orthodoxy requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instruc= tions in IPv6 addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And no= w, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM information is enco= ded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined, even whe= n Segment Left is equal to zero.

 

I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID wil= l interact.

 

So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on= the more conservative, SRv6+ approach?  This brings us to the bac= k to the elephant in the room…..

 

Until very recently, relatively few router vendors h= ave supported IPv6 extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained = any extension headers at all, it was sent to the slow path.

 

SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both = the Routing and Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a= path on a path towards more complete implementation of the architecture th= at the IPv6 community has developed so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more and more of= RFC 8200 to ASICs.

 

SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routin= g header in ASICs, while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to = support Destination Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for= many platforms. However, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for the IETF.

 

         &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =          Ron

 

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IET= F has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Ro= uting for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.= =

 

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.

    •  

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

     

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

     

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. 

     

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno

     

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_SN6PR05MB3950E186FB6B6FE0F9074BB5D5B90SN6PR05MB3950namp_-- From nobody Tue Sep 3 04:27:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E7A120803; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 04:26:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ky_XAN93gvkL; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 04:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DC1312012C; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 04:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 80D2485F04; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 13:26:52 +0200 (CEST) To: Suresh Krishnan Cc: Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 14:17:41 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 11:27:00 -0000 Hello, Suresh, On 2/9/19 19:07, Suresh Krishnan wrote: [....] >>> So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the >>> motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on Option 1. >> >> My argument would be: >> Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they feel the >> need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*, post an >> internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for the >> insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published, and only >> then suggest to do EH insertion. > > I have put down my thoughts on the future of header insertion work in a > mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be found below > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizhoT5Rl-TjRc This seems e bit misleading. What I would expect is that before any work is published on EH-insertion, the IPv6 standard is updated to allow for EH insertion. (plese see bellow) >> P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in the >> context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf document >> suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs >> make sure that's not the case anymore. > > Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, I > will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are fixed. Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or leave the IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has had consensus that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be bad, wastefull, tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go through the whole publication process, and just rely on the AD to keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed. Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf and have the corresponding wg ship the document with something that clearly goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has declared that wouldn't let pass? -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Tue Sep 3 04:27:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AA6D12080A; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 04:27:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fLOv3OKb2een; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E04D120801; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 04:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 00BD2860A6; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 13:26:55 +0200 (CEST) To: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <5e4f18d3-dc55-f459-c2d5-bf4cf950d257@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 14:26:29 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 11:27:01 -0000 On 2/9/19 00:10, Ron Bonica wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > 6man participants should look at the following: > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 (In particular, Sections 4 and 5) > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-02 The short version of the question would be: Does any of these I-Ds, and in particular, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (a wg item) propose or suggest to insert EHs in the network? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Sep 3 05:13:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50F9120133 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 05:13:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N0oEpxoQRths for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 05:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x733.google.com (mail-qk1-x733.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::733]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 663E6120103 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 05:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x733.google.com with SMTP id d26so8030465qkk.2 for ; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 05:13:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xZy5mF9lGcTsrUbLp5i8PUqF4g5Ulz6uS1OkACD3kV0=; b=QDXOIFsm/S5WbBtyulK2hrhruqb8CsQUroEM5PkJVdQizIrhQviIsAdfAI3hU50Stb jFpXnaNpXTRn+OfzGqx4ZquTkhE7t6ECAEqxHwmqBO+TNXpvyDnHk7MptAmouZGkiGjw FjSxfBa9qKyit+NG1/eYdexDdVbnwn7O0SgKSgE1ypf/YrmcHXmmTeqXYn7VrY0sAt3O bQnIGHvvEEqUODJVRy9eRzwFoXpxJV0ic9SPiG8JVHk5Zf7+NTRIEvsWsGlTzERTfaHW Sm/PQPjS8Id0EQ3iKqnU8nezHpXRN1+s1G0GMqh2+SQrtB/XKDAGVGsE7CcMNvvdJ0wZ /jCg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xZy5mF9lGcTsrUbLp5i8PUqF4g5Ulz6uS1OkACD3kV0=; b=EuA1rtUzzWQ1Qx2hDZTAGtZVuaTCwnfufh+E3ITYMmGgwrxHfVXf+1/eYVGSXqYZED pp/qInRGMY/RJz90Z+gk0RuBFN0paetfehNds4+/dDMRv/udu9HK8DWxL2ClzYnqiQnU +hGhvTei3maK3+UyyUeW548J4W8gaf5jXoXTi2i35wEnwpIm9rOLgJwETPCI2TbXU4us JvhS/xBsv3rAQIHn4kCJM9bIKklnIEGqDVvk9ZOH7+CpCM8H98NG5plhJ3AM1B8jC6jM xvDHzGMdkeTVg+NITaLP5NO59SywXQYZezL5p5E3DE0vcSis+3wUppACMqZTqM2nRRKv d0pw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVk43TN1yFI6x7UKmQQLikYgU5ZO068M0cISs0pRrCYGk24lfvw mBq6Tnn+AkRNKGcYZkuFWoj80TIqCWfXKpL1P0bltQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwelJhYybW4dhjTvXCA8ariinto2Y+/XGLur2N4qs7AI8HNM72Ra0nlO5koFlRyB57syuadN8xFh5jJlPZWw/A= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6144:: with SMTP id v65mr16346773qkb.465.1567512782300; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 05:13:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 14:12:49 +0200 Message-ID: To: Shraddha Hegde Cc: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000091fb170591a502e2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 12:13:07 -0000 --00000000000091fb170591a502e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Shraddha, The proposed architecture in CRH based drafts is a significant departure from Segment Routing Architecture as standardized in IETF. The compression advantages the set of drafts propose are all based on the mapping of 16 or 32 bit bitstrings to IPv6 addresses and their flooding in IGPs and BGP via proposed extensions. Such mapping is not part of SR Architecture. As you know I personally have no objections to support any control plane solution. Specifically if you would honestly admit that proposed architecture is not in line with Segment Routing Architecture as described in RFC8402, but solves some customer needs I am sure the acceptance barrier could be much different. Taking your scheme - please kindly explain how can you provide the notion of Global Adj SIDs ref section 3.4 of RFC 8402 ? With your scheme to operate IPv6 to SID mapping must be flooded in IGP domain wide so even if nodes do not need to participate in any IPv6 Segment Routing they will need to store in their control plane such additional state. Without mapping such additional state in SRv6 operation by non SR nodes is optional - meaning that SRv6 can operate just fine without any IGP extensions required. Quote from "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02": Segment Routing can be directly instantiated on the IPv6 data plane through the use of the Segment Routing Header defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]. Can you kindly explain how SRv6+ proposal can be directly instantiated on the IPv6 data plane without any protocol extensions ? Kind regards, Robert On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:44 PM Shraddha Hegde wrote: > SPRING WG, > > > > SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms > > 1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture > > 2.Efficient encoding > > 3.Operational simplicity > > > > There hasn't been a single mail denying the above advantages of SRv6+ > > The only argument has been the SRv6 in its present form has been > > deployed by a couple of operators and a handful interested in it. > > > > u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but the addressing architecture > > isn't very clear. Deploying this solution in a running network > > hasn't been explained. > > > > There is clearly interest in the operator community for a better > solution and > > I support SPRING WG to continue work on SRv6+. > > > > > > Rgds > > Shraddha > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Ron Bonica > *Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM > *To:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG List < > spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Rob, > > > > There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing=E2=80=A6. > > > > Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architectur= e > that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in > Routing headers, and still other information in Destination Options > headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses > IPv6 machinery, its specification promises it be painless and its > deployment promises to be safe. To date, there has been no significant > technical criticism of SRv6+. Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete a= nd > good enough. (Both of those claims may require scrutiny). > > > > By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 > architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been > encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else i= n > the Routing header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn=E2=80=99t= exist. It > frequently tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. > > > > This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy > requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 > addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, > draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 > orthodoxy. OAM information is encoded in the Routing header and the Routi= ng > header must be examined, even when Segment Left is equal to zero. > > > > I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact. > > > > So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more > conservative, SRv6+ approach? This brings us to the back to the elephant > in the room=E2=80=A6.. > > > > Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 > extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension > headers at all, it was sent to the slow path. > > > > SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and > Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a pat= h > towards more complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 > community has developed so carefully over the years. It encourages vendor= s > to commit more and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs. > > > > SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, > while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destinati= on > Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. > However, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approa= ch > for the IETF. > > > > > = Ron > > > > > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in > NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP o= r > GRE. > > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related > to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > - SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 > > - uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-sr= v6-usid-01 > > > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 > > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think > it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on > the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from > the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, > and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > - use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > - forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > > - e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in > max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-b= it SIDs > and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be dif= ferent > (*). > > > - if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only o= r for > the long term. > > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to > briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limi= t > the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number o= f > SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SI= Ds > would improve the deployments . > > > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the > SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it > directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a > reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and > ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. > > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000091fb170591a502e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Shraddha,

The proposed architecture in CRH based drafts is a signif= icant departure from Segment Routing Architecture as standardized in IETF.= =C2=A0

The compression advantages the set of draft= s propose are all based on the mapping of 16 or 32 bit bitstrings to IPv6 a= ddresses and their flooding in IGPs and BGP via proposed extensions. Such m= apping is not part of SR Architecture.=C2=A0

As yo= u know I personally have no objections to support any control plane solutio= n. Specifically if you would honestly admit that proposed architecture is n= ot in line with Segment Routing Architecture as described in RFC8402, but s= olves some customer needs I am sure the acceptance barrier could be much di= fferent.=C2=A0

Taking your scheme - please kindly = explain how can you provide the notion of Global Adj SIDs ref section 3.4 o= f RFC 8402 ?

With your scheme to operate IPv6 to S= ID mapping must be flooded in IGP domain wide so even if nodes do not need = to participate in any IPv6 Segment Routing they will need to store in their= control plane such additional state. Without mapping such additional state= in SRv6 operation by non SR nodes is optional - meaning that SRv6 can oper= ate just fine without any IGP extensions required.=C2=A0

Quote from "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02":=C2=A0=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing can be directly inst= antiated on the IPv6 data plane
=C2=A0 =C2=A0through the use of the Segm= ent Routing Header defined in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routin= g-header].

Can you kindly explain how SRv6+ pr= oposal can be directly instantiated on the IPv6 data plane without any prot= ocol extensions ?=C2=A0

Kind regards,
Ro= bert


On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:44 PM Shraddh= a Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

SPRING WG,

=C2=A0

SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms

=C2=A0=C2=A0 1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 2.Efficient encoding

=C2=A0=C2=A0 3.Operational simplicity<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 There hasn't been a single mail den= ying the above advantages of SRv6+

=C2=A0=C2=A0 The only argument has been the SRv6 in = its present form has been

=C2=A0=C2=A0 deployed by a couple of operators and a= handful interested in it.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but = the addressing architecture

=C2=A0=C2=A0 isn't very clear. Deploying this so= lution in a running network

=C2=A0=C2=A0 hasn't been explained.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 There is clearly interest in the operat= or community for a better solution and

=C2=A0=C2=A0 I support SPRING WG to continue work on= SRv6+.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Rgds

Shraddha

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Beha= lf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; SPRING WG List= <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Rob,

=C2=A0

There may be an elephant in the room that needs addr= essing=E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0

Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a v= ery tight architecture that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, oth= er information in Routing headers, and still other information in Destinati= on Options headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery, its speci= fication promises it be painless and its deployment promises to be safe. To= date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+. Only a c= laim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those claims may require scrutiny).

=C2=A0

By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the= letter of the IPv6 architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that ha= ve never been encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode every= thing else in the Routing header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn=E2=80=99t exist. It frequently= tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance.

=C2=A0

This creates a situation in which each variance from= IPv6 orthodoxy requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instruc= tions in IPv6 addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And no= w, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM information is enco= ded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined, even whe= n Segment Left is equal to zero.

=C2=A0

I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID wil= l interact.

=C2=A0

So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on= the more conservative, SRv6+ approach?=C2=A0 This brings us to the back to= the elephant in the room=E2=80=A6..

=C2=A0

Until very recently, relatively few router vendors h= ave supported IPv6 extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained = any extension headers at all, it was sent to the slow path.

=C2=A0

SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the = Routing and Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a pat= h on a path towards more complete implementation of the architecture that t= he IPv6 community has developed so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more and more of= RFC 8200 to ASICs.

=C2=A0

SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routin= g header in ASICs, while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to = support Destination Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for= many platforms. However, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for the IETF.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi SPRING WG,

= =C2=A0

Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Pa= cket Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (= SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

= =C2=A0

These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or R= FC Editor).

= =C2=A0

During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentati= ons were related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane= :<= /p>

= =C2=A0

During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been pr= oposed:

= =C2=A0

As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for = the WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, = we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

= =C2=A0

Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators in= terested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:<= span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">

  • use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, e= xplicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding performance and sca= ling requirements
    • e.g., (number of nodes, networ= k diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the latter, if = possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the= number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SRv6 approach = is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a d= ifferent solution is required and whether this solution is needed for the s= hort term only or for the long term.

= =C2=A0

As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPR= ING community to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are se= eing which limit the deployment of SRv6=C2=A0 In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .=

= =C2=A0

For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please p= ost this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, pl= ease send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

= =C2=A0

This call for information will run for four weeks, up to= 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@= ietf.org.=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0

Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno

= =C2=A0

(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can = encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may = be required.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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Thread-Index: AQHVSwgt98swpc9VGEiHCF6pCt7E6qcYa58AgAGHH4CAABj/gIAAIvlA Content-Class: Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 14:30:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=rbonica@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2019-09-03T14:30:57.2961816Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=Juniper Business Use Only; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=727f5919-1f5c-480c-8171-3e8455c5ba69; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.2.0.14 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.11] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: bf6a467f-bada-4fc0-84e7-08d7307b574d x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR05MB4104; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR05MB4104: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 7 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 01494FA7F7 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(346002)(136003)(39860400002)(396003)(366004)(376002)(189003)(199004)(2906002)(66574012)(1941001)(66066001)(6636002)(55016002)(71200400001)(561944003)(236005)(53936002)(316002)(66556008)(64756008)(229853002)(8936002)(76176011)(256004)(53946003)(478600001)(6246003)(81156014)(74316002)(99286004)(53546011)(26005)(102836004)(186003)(7736002)(8676002)(7696005)(606006)(14444005)(6306002)(11346002)(446003)(790700001)(6116002)(476003)(110136005)(486006)(81166006)(3846002)(54906003)(6436002)(5660300002)(86362001)(33656002)(25786009)(4326008)(66476007)(76116006)(66946007)(66446008)(71190400001)(52536014)(6506007)(966005)(54896002)(9686003)(14454004)(5070765005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR05MB4104; H:BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: N3cFecQGgouSjFVN/zoU5/jKQjldUBQ1vYEzfWROCsKqSwHuZdxx/b4cdSH92WdkGG91BtOapWbk/MwvKZ+1Ce27YXcdaRk0Rl9aNEwpadMa+M0qTxwvggIZ6Aa/iIRM7btRBK55wufx9Ed2dbtw/j0SwqFX9jIoukVGBaAp0Z2ZYlCR+3nV5IcGQ/jsdt5eNnDvqigVxZ5Lg+JwdOulQz79F4Dc814BemK7jSd52d0IW7jA274ZEnjIIgRuSguojzQkfoMnu0XB7HIaYx98ralGdxCYxmCPD8Xas+q5yX0zM9o7xmQfIgO+K36mzI8Z8sJTNBPhDYzAYseQZ3xsGERynnC1UNoF81KY91RDtLdnMGgaeh+za6ah+A+N37JopU2UmB8zNGaAfQyh4HmeWjucD3FSNeih+gveJq7D8t4= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB5463A55562181A027B67EE2EAEB90BYAPR05MB5463namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bf6a467f-bada-4fc0-84e7-08d7307b574d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Sep 2019 14:30:59.7934 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: IP3tAVJVmU2gpe7Lzy6vPq19L3L+NNfFSlwj+OhqVI9oNEX0rKRZ5vNBfU+RuJ2ueRogqTwTqniXMY8wtbonMQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4104 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-03_02:2019-09-03,2019-09-03 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909030152 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 14:31:11 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463A55562181A027B67EE2EAEB90BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, In SRv6+, global SIDs work in a manner that is very similar SR-MPLS. If you= compare the two relevant IS-IS drafts, you will see a striking similarity.= This is why SRv6+ uses the term "global SID" as opposed to END SID. In your message, below, you suggest that if we document the differences bet= ween the proposed architecture and that which is documented in RFC 8402, th= e barrier to acceptance could be much different. Could we explore that option together? If you generate some bullet points, = I can craft some text. Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 8:13 AM To: Shraddha Hegde Cc: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; SPRING= WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Shraddha, The proposed architecture in CRH based drafts is a significant departure fr= om Segment Routing Architecture as standardized in IETF. The compression advantages the set of drafts propose are all based on the m= apping of 16 or 32 bit bitstrings to IPv6 addresses and their flooding in I= GPs and BGP via proposed extensions. Such mapping is not part of SR Archite= cture. As you know I personally have no objections to support any control plane so= lution. Specifically if you would honestly admit that proposed architecture= is not in line with Segment Routing Architecture as described in RFC8402, = but solves some customer needs I am sure the acceptance barrier could be mu= ch different. Taking your scheme - please kindly explain how can you provide the notion o= f Global Adj SIDs ref section 3.4 of RFC 8402 ? With your scheme to operate IPv6 to SID mapping must be flooded in IGP doma= in wide so even if nodes do not need to participate in any IPv6 Segment Rou= ting they will need to store in their control plane such additional state. = Without mapping such additional state in SRv6 operation by non SR nodes is = optional - meaning that SRv6 can operate just fine without any IGP extensio= ns required. Quote from "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02": Segment Routing can be directly instantiated on the IPv6 data plane through the use of the Segment Routing Header defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]. Can you kindly explain how SRv6+ proposal can be directly instantiated on t= he IPv6 data plane without any protocol extensions ? Kind regards, Robert On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:44 PM Shraddha Hegde > wrote: SPRING WG, SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms 1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture 2.Efficient encoding 3.Operational simplicity There hasn't been a single mail denying the above advantages of SRv6+ The only argument has been the SRv6 in its present form has been deployed by a couple of operators and a handful interested in it. u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but the addressing architecture isn't very clear. Deploying this solution in a running network hasn't been explained. There is clearly interest in the operator community for a better solutio= n and I support SPRING WG to continue work on SRv6+. Rgds Shraddha Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Ron Bonica Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM To: Rob Shakir >; SPRING WG List >; 6= man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Rob, There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing.... Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architecture = that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in Routi= ng headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv= 6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery,= its specification promises it be painless and its deployment promises to b= e safe. To date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+= . Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those= claims may require scrutiny). By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 arc= hitecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been encoded i= n IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routi= ng header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn't exist. It frequent= ly tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy require= s another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 addresses= , draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-sprin= g-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM informati= on is encoded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined= , even when Segment Left is equal to zero. I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact. So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more conservative,= SRv6+ approach? This brings us to the back to the elephant in the room...= .. Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 exte= nsion headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension headers a= t all, it was sent to the slow path. SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and Destination= Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a path towards mor= e complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has d= eveloped so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more = and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs. SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, whil= e doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destination Opt= ions in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. Howeve= r, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for t= he IETF. = Ron From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf..org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BYAPR05MB5463A55562181A027B67EE2EAEB90BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

In SRv6+, global SIDs work in a manner that is v= ery similar SR-MPLS. If you compare the two relevant IS-IS drafts, you will= see a striking similarity. This is why SRv6+ uses the term “glob= al SID” as opposed to END SID.

 

In your message, below, you suggest that if we docum= ent the differences between the proposed architecture and that which is doc= umented in RFC 8402, the barrier to acceptance could be much different.

 

Could we explore that option together? If you genera= te some bullet points, I can craft some text.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;           Ron

 

 

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 8:13 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@goo= gle.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi Shraddha,

 

The proposed architecture in CRH based drafts is a s= ignificant departure from Segment Routing Architecture as standardized in I= ETF. 

 

The compression advantages the set of drafts propose= are all based on the mapping of 16 or 32 bit bitstrings to IPv6 addresses = and their flooding in IGPs and BGP via proposed extensions. Such mapping is= not part of SR Architecture. 

 

As you know I personally have no objections to suppo= rt any control plane solution. Specifically if you would honestly admit tha= t proposed architecture is not in line with Segment Routing Architecture as= described in RFC8402, but solves some customer needs I am sure the acceptance barrier could be much differe= nt. 

 

Taking your scheme - please kindly explain how can y= ou provide the notion of Global Adj SIDs ref section 3.4 of RFC 8402 ?=

 

With your scheme to operate IPv6 to SID mapping must= be flooded in IGP domain wide so even if nodes do not need to participate = in any IPv6 Segment Routing they will need to store in their control plane = such additional state. Without mapping such additional state in SRv6 operation by non SR nodes is optional - mean= ing that SRv6 can operate just fine without any IGP extensions required.&nb= sp;

 

Quote from "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions= -02": 

 

   Segment Routing can be directly instant= iated on the IPv6 data plane
   through the use of the Segment Routing Header defined in
   [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header].

 

Can you kindly explain how SRv6+ proposal can be= directly instantiated on the IPv6 data plane without any protocol extensio= ns ? 

 

Kind regards,

Robert

 

 

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:44 PM Shraddha Hegde <s= hraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

SPRING WG,

 

SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms

   1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture

   2.Efficient encoding

   3.Operational simplicity

 

   There hasn't been a single mail denying the above adv= antages of SRv6+

   The only argument has been the SRv6 in its present fo= rm has been

   deployed by a couple of operators and a handful inter= ested in it.

 

   u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but the addressing= architecture

   isn't very clear. Deploying this solution in a runnin= g network

   hasn't been explained.

 

   There is clearly interest in the operator community f= or a better solution and

   I support SPRING WG to continue work on SRv6+.

 

 

Rgds

Shraddha

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; SPRING WG Lis= t <spring@ietf.org<= /a>>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Rob,

 

There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing….=

 

Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight arch= itecture that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information= in Routing headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to = this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery, its specification prom= ises it be painless and its deployment promises to be safe. To date, there = has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+. Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (= Both of those claims may require scrutiny).

 

By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the= IPv6 architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been = encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routing header, as if the other = IPv6 extension headers didn’t exist. It frequently tests the limits o= f RFC 8200 compliance.

 

This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodox= y requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 = addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own varia= nces from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM information is encoded in the Routing hea= der and the Routing header must be examined, even when Segment Left is equa= l to zero.

 

I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact.

 

So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more cons= ervative, SRv6+ approach?  This brings us to the back to the eleph= ant in the room…..

 

Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported = IPv6 extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension = headers at all, it was sent to the slow path.

 

SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing an= d Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a pat= h towards more complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has developed so carefully over t= he years. It encourages vendors to commit more and more of RFC 8200 to ASIC= s.

 

SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in AS= ICs, while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destin= ation Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. However, it should not be the on= ly approach, or even the long-term approach for the IETF.

 

            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;      Ron

 

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IET= F has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Ro= uting for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

 

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.

    •  

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

     

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

     

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org= and ADs via spring-ads@= ietf.org. 

     

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno

     

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/spring

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Tue, 03 Sep 2019 07:59:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 16:59:45 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008f69a30591a75795" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 15:00:06 -0000 --0000000000008f69a30591a75795 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, You are spot on that SRv6+ conceptually and operationally is very similar to SR-MPLS. That is why calling it SRv6+ to me is not right. Instead of producing comparisons with existing RFCs or trying to push new Routing Header type in 6man, new IGP extensions, new BGP extensions etc ... how about we do something else ? We drop CRH and we take SR-MPLS as it is now - shipped and interoperable and we add IP forwarding to it. It could by using some elements from Vector Routing proposal ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patel-raszuk-bgp-vector-routing-07) or by verbatim using https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07 proposal. That way you get all beauty and power of SR architecture, no impact/change to data plane and yet you get IP forwarding between SR nodes (either IPv4 or IPv6) to allow minimal data plane overhead deployments for networks which do not want to use LDP, MPLS as transport or get into RSVP-TE challanges ? SRv6 can continue to progress as it offers much broader set of functionality. It also offers true direct IPv6 solution in that space. Note that even in SR-MPLS some labels may embed pointers to local processing functions. So the bottom line key question stands: Is there anything functionally and practically missing if we use SR-MPLS-over-IP as compared with SRv6+/CRH proposal ? Best, R. On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 4:31 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > In SRv6+, global SIDs work in a manner that is very similar SR-MPLS. If > you compare the two relevant IS-IS drafts, you will see a striking > similarity. This is why SRv6+ uses the term =E2=80=9Cglobal SID=E2=80=9D = as opposed to END > SID. > > > > In your message, below, you suggest that if we document the differences > between the proposed architecture and that which is documented in RFC 840= 2, > the barrier to acceptance could be much different. > > > > Could we explore that option together? If you generate some bullet points= , > I can craft some text. > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 3, 2019 8:13 AM > *To:* Shraddha Hegde > *Cc:* Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; > SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi Shraddha, > > > > The proposed architecture in CRH based drafts is a significant departure > from Segment Routing Architecture as standardized in IETF. > > > > The compression advantages the set of drafts propose are all based on the > mapping of 16 or 32 bit bitstrings to IPv6 addresses and their flooding i= n > IGPs and BGP via proposed extensions. Such mapping is not part of SR > Architecture. > > > > As you know I personally have no objections to support any control plane > solution. Specifically if you would honestly admit that proposed > architecture is not in line with Segment Routing Architecture as describe= d > in RFC8402, but solves some customer needs I am sure the acceptance barri= er > could be much different. > > > > Taking your scheme - please kindly explain how can you provide the notion > of Global Adj SIDs ref section 3.4 of RFC 8402 ? > > > > With your scheme to operate IPv6 to SID mapping must be flooded in IGP > domain wide so even if nodes do not need to participate in any IPv6 Segme= nt > Routing they will need to store in their control plane such additional > state. Without mapping such additional state in SRv6 operation by non SR > nodes is optional - meaning that SRv6 can operate just fine without any I= GP > extensions required. > > > > Quote from "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02": > > > > Segment Routing can be directly instantiated on the IPv6 data plane > through the use of the Segment Routing Header defined in > [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]. > > > > Can you kindly explain how SRv6+ proposal can be directly instantiated on > the IPv6 data plane without any protocol extensions ? > > > > Kind regards, > > Robert > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:44 PM Shraddha Hegde 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > SPRING WG, > > > > SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms > > 1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture > > 2.Efficient encoding > > 3.Operational simplicity > > > > There hasn't been a single mail denying the above advantages of SRv6+ > > The only argument has been the SRv6 in its present form has been > > deployed by a couple of operators and a handful interested in it. > > > > u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but the addressing architecture > > isn't very clear. Deploying this solution in a running network > > hasn't been explained. > > > > There is clearly interest in the operator community for a better > solution and > > I support SPRING WG to continue work on SRv6+. > > > > > > Rgds > > Shraddha > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Ron Bonica > *Sent:* Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM > *To:* Rob Shakir <40google.com@dmarc.ietf..org>>; SPRING WG List ; > 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Rob, > > > > There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing=E2=80=A6. > > > > Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architectur= e > that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in > Routing headers, and still other information in Destination Options > headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses > IPv6 machinery, its specification promises it be painless and its > deployment promises to be safe. To date, there has been no significant > technical criticism of SRv6+. Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete a= nd > good enough. (Both of those claims may require scrutiny). > > > > By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 > architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been > encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else i= n > the Routing header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn=E2=80=99t= exist. It > frequently tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. > > > > This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy > requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 > addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, > draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 > orthodoxy. OAM information is encoded in the Routing header and the Routi= ng > header must be examined, even when Segment Left is equal to zero. > > > > I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact. > > > > So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more > conservative, SRv6+ approach? This brings us to the back to the elephant > in the room=E2=80=A6.. > > > > Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 > extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension > headers at all, it was sent to the slow path. > > > > SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and > Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a pat= h > towards more complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 > community has developed so carefully over the years. It encourages vendor= s > to commit more and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs. > > > > SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, > while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destinati= on > Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. > However, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approa= ch > for the IETF. > > > > > = Ron > > > > > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in > NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP o= r > GRE. > > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related > to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > - SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 > > - uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-sr= v6-usid-01 > > > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > - https://tools.ietf..org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 > > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think > it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on > the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from > the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, > and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > - use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > - forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > > - e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in > max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-b= it SIDs > and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be dif= ferent > (*). > > > - if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only o= r for > the long term. > > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to > briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limi= t > the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number o= f > SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SI= Ds > would improve the deployments . > > > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the > SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it > directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a > reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and > ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. > > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > --0000000000008f69a30591a75795 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

You are spot on that SRv6+ conc= eptually and operationally is very similar to SR-MPLS. That is why calling = it SRv6+ to me is not right.=C2=A0

Instead of prod= ucing comparisons with existing RFCs or trying to push new Routing Header t= ype in 6man, new IGP extensions, new BGP extensions etc ...=C2=A0 how about= we do something else ?=C2=A0

We drop CRH and we t= ake SR-MPLS as it is now - shipped and interoperable and we add IP forwardi= ng to it. It could by using some elements from Vector Routing proposal (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patel-raszuk-bgp-vector-routing-07= ) or by verbatim using=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-= ip-07=C2=A0proposal.=C2=A0

That way you get al= l beauty and power of SR architecture, no impact/change to data plane and y= et you get IP forwarding between SR nodes (either IPv4 or IPv6) to allow mi= nimal data plane overhead deployments for networks which do not want to use= LDP, MPLS as transport or get into RSVP-TE challanges ?

SRv6 can continue to progress as it offers much broader set of funct= ionality. It also offers true direct IPv6 solution in that space.=C2=A0

Note that even in SR-MPLS some labels may embed point= ers to local processing functions.=C2=A0

So the bo= ttom line key question stands: Is there anything functionally and practical= ly missing if we use SR-MPLS-over-IP as compared with SRv6+/CRH proposal ?= =C2=A0

Best,
R.


On T= ue, Sep 3, 2019 at 4:31 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

In SRv6+, global SIDs work in a manner that is very = similar SR-MPLS. If you compare the two relevant IS-IS drafts, you will see= a striking similarity. This is why SRv6+ uses the term =E2=80=9Cglobal SID= =E2=80=9D as opposed to END SID.

=C2=A0

In your message, below, you suggest that if we docum= ent the differences between the proposed architecture and that which is doc= umented in RFC 8402, the barrier to acceptance could be much different.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Could we explore that option together? If you genera= te some bullet points, I can craft some text.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 8:13 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <= ;spring@ietf.org&g= t;; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi Shraddha,

=C2=A0

The proposed architecture in CRH based drafts is a s= ignificant departure from Segment Routing Architecture as standardized in I= ETF.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The compression advantages the set of drafts propose= are all based on the mapping of 16 or 32 bit bitstrings to IPv6 addresses = and their flooding in IGPs and BGP via proposed extensions. Such mapping is= not part of SR Architecture.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

As you know I personally have no objections to suppo= rt any control plane solution. Specifically if you would honestly admit tha= t proposed architecture is not in line with Segment Routing Architecture as= described in RFC8402, but solves some customer needs I am sure the acceptance barrier could be much differe= nt.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Taking your scheme - please kindly explain how can y= ou provide the notion of Global Adj SIDs ref section 3.4 of RFC 8402 ?

=C2=A0

With your scheme to operate IPv6 to SID mapping must= be flooded in IGP domain wide so even if nodes do not need to participate = in any IPv6 Segment Routing they will need to store in their control plane = such additional state. Without mapping such additional state in SRv6 operation by non SR nodes is optional - mean= ing that SRv6 can operate just fine without any IGP extensions required.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

Quote from "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions= -02":=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing can be directly instant= iated on the IPv6 data plane
=C2=A0 =C2=A0through the use of the Segment Routing Header defined in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header].

=C2=A0

Can you kindly explain how SRv6+ proposal can be dir= ectly instantiated on the IPv6 data plane without any protocol extensions ?= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Kind regards,

Robert

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:44 PM Shraddha Hegde <s= hraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

SPRING WG,

=C2=A0

SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms

=C2=A0=C2=A0 1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 2.Efficient encoding

=C2=A0=C2=A0 3.Operational simplicity<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 There hasn't been a single mail den= ying the above advantages of SRv6+

=C2=A0=C2=A0 The only argument has been the SRv6 in = its present form has been

=C2=A0=C2=A0 deployed by a couple of operators and a= handful interested in it.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but = the addressing architecture

=C2=A0=C2=A0 isn't very clear. Deploying this so= lution in a running network

=C2=A0=C2=A0 hasn't been explained.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0 There is clearly interest in the operat= or community for a better solution and

=C2=A0=C2=A0 I support SPRING WG to continue work on= SRv6+.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Rgds

Shraddha

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; SPRING WG Lis= t <spring@ietf.org<= /a>>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Rob,

=C2=A0

There may be an elephant in the room that needs addr= essing=E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0

Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a v= ery tight architecture that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, oth= er information in Routing headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to this= architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery, its specification promises= it be painless and its deployment promises to be safe. To date, there has = been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+. Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both= of those claims may require scrutiny).

=C2=A0

By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the= letter of the IPv6 architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that ha= ve never been encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routing header, as if the other = IPv6 extension headers didn=E2=80=99t exist. It frequently tests the limits= of RFC 8200 compliance.

=C2=A0

This creates a situation in which each variance from= IPv6 orthodoxy requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instruc= tions in IPv6 addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own varia= nces from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM information is encoded in the Routing hea= der and the Routing header must be examined, even when Segment Left is equa= l to zero.

=C2=A0

I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID wil= l interact.

=C2=A0

So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on= the more conservative, SRv6+ approach?=C2=A0 This brings us to the back to= the elephant in the room=E2=80=A6..

=C2=A0

Until very recently, relatively few router vendors h= ave supported IPv6 extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained = any extension headers at all, it was sent to the slow path.

=C2=A0

SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the = Routing and Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a pat= h on a path towards more complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has developed so carefully over t= he years. It encourages vendors to commit more and more of RFC 8200 to ASIC= s.

=C2=A0

SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routin= g header in ASICs, while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to = support Destination Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. However, it should not be the on= ly approach, or even the long-term approach for the IETF.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi SPRING WG,

=C2=A0<= /span>

Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Pa= cket Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (= SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

=C2=A0<= /span>

These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or R= FC Editor).

=C2=A0<= /span>

During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentati= ons were related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane= :

=C2=A0<= /span>

During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been pr= oposed:

=C2=A0<= /span>

As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for = the WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, = we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators in= terested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:<= u>

  • use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, e= xplicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding performance and sca= ling requirements
    • e.g., (number of nodes, networ= k diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the latter, if = possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the= number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SRv6 approach = is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a d= ifferent solution is required and whether this solution is needed for the s= hort term only or for the long term.

=C2=A0<= /span>

As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPR= ING community to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are se= eing which limit the deployment of SRv6=C2=A0 In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

=C2=A0<= /span>

For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please p= ost this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, pl= ease send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

=C2=A0<= /span>

This call for information will run for four weeks, up to= 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@= ietf.org.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0<= /span>

Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno

=C2=A0<= /span>

(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can = encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may = be required.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

_______________________________________________
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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 15:56:42 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463BE2A196210A6033C0ABAAEB90BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I am afraid that won't fulfill customer requirements. The customer is looking for an SR solution that whose efficiency and perfor= mance is comparable to SR-MPLS, but operates in an MPLS-free, IPv6 environm= ent. It should abide, in both spirit and letter, to the requirements of RF= C 4291 and RFC 8200. Returning to your initial offer, is there some architectural statement that= could be added to the SRv6+ overview document that would reduce the barrie= r to acceptance? If so, I would be happy to collaborate with you on that. = Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 11:00 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Shraddha Hegde ; Rob Shakir ; S= PRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Ron, You are spot on that SRv6+ conceptually and operationally is very similar t= o SR-MPLS. That is why calling it SRv6+ to me is not right. Instead of producing comparisons with existing RFCs or trying to push new R= outing Header type in 6man, new IGP extensions, new BGP extensions etc ... = how about we do something else ? We drop CRH and we take SR-MPLS as it is now - shipped and interoperable an= d we add IP forwarding to it. It could by using some elements from Vector R= outing proposal (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patel-raszuk-bgp-vector-= routing-07) or by verbatim using https= ://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07 proposal. That way you get all beauty and power of SR architecture, no impact/change = to data plane and yet you get IP forwarding between SR nodes (either IPv4 o= r IPv6) to allow minimal data plane overhead deployments for networks which= do not want to use LDP, MPLS as transport or get into RSVP-TE challanges ? SRv6 can continue to progress as it offers much broader set of functionalit= y. It also offers true direct IPv6 solution in that space. Note that even in SR-MPLS some labels may embed pointers to local processin= g functions. So the bottom line key question stands: Is there anything functionally and = practically missing if we use SR-MPLS-over-IP as compared with SRv6+/CRH pr= oposal ? Best, R. On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 4:31 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Robert, In SRv6+, global SIDs work in a manner that is very similar SR-MPLS. If you= compare the two relevant IS-IS drafts, you will see a striking similarity.= This is why SRv6+ uses the term "global SID" as opposed to END SID. In your message, below, you suggest that if we document the differences bet= ween the proposed architecture and that which is documented in RFC 8402, th= e barrier to acceptance could be much different. Could we explore that option together? If you generate some bullet points, = I can craft some text. Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 8:13 AM To: Shraddha Hegde > Cc: Ron Bonica >; Rob Shaki= r >; SPRING WG List >; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Shraddha, The proposed architecture in CRH based drafts is a significant departure fr= om Segment Routing Architecture as standardized in IETF. The compression advantages the set of drafts propose are all based on the m= apping of 16 or 32 bit bitstrings to IPv6 addresses and their flooding in I= GPs and BGP via proposed extensions. Such mapping is not part of SR Archite= cture. As you know I personally have no objections to support any control plane so= lution. Specifically if you would honestly admit that proposed architecture= is not in line with Segment Routing Architecture as described in RFC8402, = but solves some customer needs I am sure the acceptance barrier could be mu= ch different. Taking your scheme - please kindly explain how can you provide the notion o= f Global Adj SIDs ref section 3.4 of RFC 8402 ? With your scheme to operate IPv6 to SID mapping must be flooded in IGP doma= in wide so even if nodes do not need to participate in any IPv6 Segment Rou= ting they will need to store in their control plane such additional state. = Without mapping such additional state in SRv6 operation by non SR nodes is = optional - meaning that SRv6 can operate just fine without any IGP extensio= ns required. Quote from "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02": Segment Routing can be directly instantiated on the IPv6 data plane through the use of the Segment Routing Header defined in [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header]. Can you kindly explain how SRv6+ proposal can be directly instantiated on t= he IPv6 data plane without any protocol extensions ? Kind regards, Robert On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:44 PM Shraddha Hegde > wrote: SPRING WG, SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms 1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture 2.Efficient encoding 3.Operational simplicity There hasn't been a single mail denying the above advantages of SRv6+ The only argument has been the SRv6 in its present form has been deployed by a couple of operators and a handful interested in it. u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but the addressing architecture isn't very clear. Deploying this solution in a running network hasn't been explained. There is clearly interest in the operator community for a better solutio= n and I support SPRING WG to continue work on SRv6+. Rgds Shraddha Juniper Business Use Only Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Ron Bonica Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM To: Rob Shakir >; SPRING WG List >; 6= man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Rob, There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing.... Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architecture = that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in Routi= ng headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv= 6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery,= its specification promises it be painless and its deployment promises to b= e safe. To date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+= . Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those= claims may require scrutiny). By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 arc= hitecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been encoded i= n IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routi= ng header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn't exist. It frequent= ly tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy require= s another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 addresses= , draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-sprin= g-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM informati= on is encoded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined= , even when Segment Left is equal to zero. I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact. So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more conservative,= SRv6+ approach? This brings us to the back to the elephant in the room...= .. Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 exte= nsion headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension headers a= t all, it was sent to the slow path. SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and Destination= Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a path towards mor= e complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has d= eveloped so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more = and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs. SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, whil= e doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destination Opt= ions in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. Howeve= r, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for t= he IETF. = Ron From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf..org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BYAPR05MB5463BE2A196210A6033C0ABAAEB90BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

I am afraid that won’t fulfill customer requir= ements.

 

The customer is looking for an SR solution that whos= e efficiency and performance is comparable to SR-MPLS, but operates in an M= PLS-free, IPv6 environment.  It should abide, in both spirit and lette= r, to the requirements of RFC 4291 and RFC 8200.

 

Returning to your initial offer, is there some archi= tectural statement that could be added to the SRv6+ overview document t= hat would reduce the barrier to acceptance? If so, I would be happy to coll= aborate with you on that.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;         Ron

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 11:00 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robj= s@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi Ron,

 

You are spot on that SRv6+ conceptually and oper= ationally is very similar to SR-MPLS. That is why calling it SRv6+ to m= e is not right. 

 

Instead of producing comparisons with existing RFCs = or trying to push new Routing Header type in 6man, new IGP extensions, new = BGP extensions etc ...  how about we do something else ? 

 

We drop CRH and we take SR-MPLS as it is now - shipp= ed and interoperable and we add IP forwarding to it. It could by using some= elements from Vector Routing proposal (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pate= l-raszuk-bgp-vector-routing-07) or by verbatim using https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07&= nbsp;proposal. 

 

That way you get all beauty and power of SR architec= ture, no impact/change to data plane and yet you get IP forwarding between = SR nodes (either IPv4 or IPv6) to allow minimal data plane overhead deploym= ents for networks which do not want to use LDP, MPLS as transport or get into RSVP-TE challanges ?<= /p>

 

SRv6 can continue to progress as it offers much broa= der set of functionality. It also offers true direct IPv6 solution in that = space. 

 

Note that even in SR-MPLS some labels may embed poin= ters to local processing functions. 

 

So the bottom line key question stands: Is there any= thing functionally and practically missing if we use SR-MPLS-over-IP as com= pared with SRv6+/CRH proposal ? 

 

Best,

R.

 

 

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 4:31 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

Robert,

 

In SRv6+, global SIDs work in a manner that is very similar SR= -MPLS. If you compare the two relevant IS-IS drafts, you will see a strikin= g similarity. This is why SRv6+ uses the term “global SID” as opposed to END SID.

 

In your message, below, you suggest that if we document the differ= ences between the proposed architecture and that which is documented in RFC= 8402, the barrier to acceptance could be much different.

 

Could we explore that option together? If you generate some bullet= points, I can craft some text.

 

           =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =          Ron

 

 

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 8:13 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <= ;spring@ietf.org&g= t;; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi Shraddha,

 

The proposed architecture in CRH based drafts is a significant dep= arture from Segment Routing Architecture as standardized in IETF. 

 

The compression advantages the set of drafts propose are all based= on the mapping of 16 or 32 bit bitstrings to IPv6 addresses and their floo= ding in IGPs and BGP via proposed extensions. Such mapping is not part of SR Architecture. 

 

As you know I personally have no objections to support any control= plane solution. Specifically if you would honestly admit that proposed arc= hitecture is not in line with Segment Routing Architecture as described in RFC8402, but solves some customer nee= ds I am sure the acceptance barrier could be much different. 

 

Taking your scheme - please kindly explain how can you provide the= notion of Global Adj SIDs ref section 3.4 of RFC 8402 ?

 

With your scheme to operate IPv6 to SID mapping must be flooded in= IGP domain wide so even if nodes do not need to participate in any IPv6 Se= gment Routing they will need to store in their control plane such additional state. Without mapping such additio= nal state in SRv6 operation by non SR nodes is optional - meaning that SRv6= can operate just fine without any IGP extensions required. 

 

Quote from "draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-02":&nbs= p;

 

   Segment Routing can be directly instantiated on the I= Pv6 data plane
   through the use of the Segment Routing Header defined in
   [I-D.ietf-6man-segment-routing-header].

 

Can you kindly explain how SRv6+ proposal can be directly inst= antiated on the IPv6 data plane without any protocol extensions ? 

 

Kind regards,

Robert

 

 

On Tue, Sep 3, 2019 at 12:44 PM Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net= @dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

SPRING WG,

 

SRv6+ is definitely a better proposal in terms

   1.Adherence to IPv6 Architecture

   2.Efficient encoding

   3.Operational simplicity

 

   There hasn't been a single mail denying the above adv= antages of SRv6+

   The only argument has been the SRv6 in its present fo= rm has been

   deployed by a couple of operators and a handful inter= ested in it.

 

   u-sid tries to solve point 2 above but the addressing= architecture

   isn't very clear. Deploying this solution in a runnin= g network

   hasn't been explained.

 

   There is clearly interest in the operator community f= or a better solution and

   I support SPRING WG to continue work on SRv6+.

 

 

Rgds

Shraddha

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 6:53 PM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; SPRING WG Lis= t <spring@ietf.org<= /a>>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Rob,

 

There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing….=

 

Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight arch= itecture that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information= in Routing headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to = this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery, its specification prom= ises it be painless and its deployment promises to be safe. To date, there = has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+. Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (= Both of those claims may require scrutiny).

 

By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the= IPv6 architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been = encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routing header, as if the other = IPv6 extension headers didn’t exist. It frequently tests the limits o= f RFC 8200 compliance.

 

This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodox= y requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 = addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own varia= nces from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM information is encoded in the Routing hea= der and the Routing header must be examined, even when Segment Left is equa= l to zero.

 

I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact.

 

So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more cons= ervative, SRv6+ approach?  This brings us to the back to the eleph= ant in the room…..

 

Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported = IPv6 extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension = headers at all, it was sent to the slow path.

 

SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing an= d Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a pat= h towards more complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has developed so carefully over t= he years. It encourages vendors to commit more and more of RFC 8200 to ASIC= s.

 

SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in AS= ICs, while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destin= ation Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. However, it should not be the on= ly approach, or even the long-term approach for the IETF.

 

            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;      Ron

 

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IET= F has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Ro= uting for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

 

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.

    •  

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

     

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

     

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org= and ADs via spring-ads@= ietf.org. 

     

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno

     

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/spring

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charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 31ada9f6-4b0d-436e-20b8-08d7308c0206 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Sep 2019 16:30:18.1866 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: nuZmos4ezwMNoiwqt/tbv4kLl3+yu3+/58z6xyPPphpZvL8SQgt/JIsW19Uz9/g28KWQas6padhtNWEp9aXy3Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4344 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-03_03:2019-09-03,2019-09-03 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909030168 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-05.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 16:30:24 -0000 Weibin, Your analysis is absolutely correct. If you believe that node segments pro= vide point-to-point connectivity, node SIDs have local significance only. I= f you believe that node segments provide multipoint-to-point connectivity, = node SIDs have global significance. This distinction is sufficiently subtle that it confuses most readers. So, = in the next draft version, I *will not* say that all SIDs have local signif= icance only. Instead, I will say: - Adjacency SIDs have node-local significance - In order to simplify network operations, node SIDs are assigned in a mann= er that gives them global significance. Namely, all segments terminating at= the same node are identified by the same SID. Does this work for you? = Ron Juniper Public -----Original Message----- From: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) =20 Sent: Monday, September 2, 2019 11:31 PM To: Ron Bonica ; SPRING WG ; IPv6 Lis= t Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-05.= txt Hi Ron: Thank u for your explanation in detail, I fully agreed on what you said fro= m SID's different perspective. You have offered new idea for Segment. The key reason why I previously raised the different opinion to your Node-l= ocal significance of all type of SID is my understanding of segment. It onl= y based on my understanding and I am sure it may not wrong. Though it is NOT important in your SRv6+ work, but I still have to describe= my understanding to Segment, May be wrong. If only consider the Node segment (i.e. corresponding to prefix SID), I thi= nk it only represent one Node itself, like loopback@ (/32) advertisement in= standard IGP flooding procedure, loopback@ represent router itself, (such = as OSPF, carried in router LSA), every other router receiving the router LS= A will calculate the least cost path to advertising router, we are consiste= nt that saying the loopback@ is unique and global significance, it should n= ot be thought as Node-local significance from every receiving router perspe= ctive; back to SR context, so every other router receiving the IGP extensio= n advertisement with Node SID TLV also calculate the least cost path to adv= ertising router, in fact, from the two flooding procedure perspective, the = behavior of all receiving routers are same, that is computing the path to N= ode which is represented by loopback@ or Node SID.=20 So in your case, 25 segments (B-A/.../Z-A) in fact only represent a path to= Node A respectively, the same segment SID represent B-A ... or Z-A, I thin= k the way of saying is not full precise, the node SID only represent the No= de itself, the specific action or behavior at every Node is up to every oth= er node, so in my understanding, the meaning of Node SID equal loopback@, L= ike Loopback@ (/32) only represent Node A itself, it doesn't itself identif= y path between other Node to Node A. and I think it is easy to understand i= n normal SRv6 context, it is full clear that the format of Node SID equal I= Pv6@ in normal SRv6 context, so easy acceptable that the Node-SID is domain= -wide significance, because the IPv6@ is domain-wide unicast. Thanks -------------------------------------- Thank you ! WANG Weibin =20 i -----Original Message----- From: spring On Behalf Of Ron Bonica Sent: 2019=1B$BG/=1B(B8=1B$B7n=1B(B30=1B$BF|=1B(B 23:23 To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) ; SPRING = WG ; IPv6 List Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-bonica-spring-srv6= -plus-05.txt Hi Wang, I think that we are in agreement about how thing actually work. For example= , assume the following: - An SRv6+ domain contains Nodes A-Z - On Node A, an network operator configures a node segment endpoint and ass= ociates the node segment endpoint with SID A - IS-IS floods the node segment endpoint and SID throughout the IGP domain - Node B builds Node Segment B-A and associates SID A with that segment=20 - Node C builds Node Segment C-A and associates SID A with that segment=20 - And so on until Node Z builds Node Segment Z-A and associates SID A with = that segment=20 I think that our disagreement is whether SID A, above, is a global SID or a= node local SID.=20 If you think that a SID identifies a segment, then it is node-local. This i= s because a single SID (i.e., A) identifies 25 different segments (i.e., Se= gments B-A through Z-A).=20 If you think that a SID identifies an instruction that a) can be instantiat= ed on multiple nodes and b) forwards a packet from the node upon which it i= s instantiated to Node A, then t is global. Whether we call the SID local or global is really secondary, so long as we = agree on how things work. If the text confuses the WG, I would be happy to = change it. = Ron Juniper Public -----Original Message----- From: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) =20 Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 10:23 AM To: Ron Bonica ; SPRING WG ; IPv6 Lis= t Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-05.= txt Ron: I still feel that all SID (including adj SID as well as Node SID) is node-l= ocal significance in your SRv6+ draft May be a problem, even if you has exp= lained it previously. >From my understanding, the Node SID (for loopback@) must be global signifi= cance in SR-enabled domain, so that every Node within SRv6 domain can find = the least cost path to the other Node which advertising its Node segment in= IGP extension, every Node has its Node-segment and adj-segments for itself= , these SIDs must be assigned by Node itself, not by other Nodes within SR-= enabled domain. >From example described in section "5.1 Range" in your draft, I deduced, wi= thin SR domain, each node must assign independently a unique SID or more fo= r other every Node from its perspective, for example, for Node 100, Node 1 = can assign Node SID#11 to the Node 100, and Node 3 can assign Node SID#13 t= o Node 100, it means that Node 1 is segment ingress node for SID 11 whose i= nstruction correspond to going to Node 100 via least cost path, Node 3 is s= egment ingress node for SID 13 to Node 100, following this way, How the ing= ress PE node calculate the E2E SR path within domain, because the ingress P= E must know all different Segment SIDs assigned by every Node from its pers= pective, that is to say, in your case, one Node must receive 4999*4999 Node= SIDs, 4999 for each Node, in order to achieve this goal, every Node must a= dvertise all other Nodes' Node segments assigned by itself from its perspec= tive, but it may be not possible, because each node has to advertise lots o= f SIDs in IGP extension , it is complex. Although a good SIDs assigning way described in section "5.3 Assigning SIDs= to Node segments", but meaning of this way in fact is not same as your ess= ential meaning of your section 5.1. in fact you have used the global signi= ficance of SID, and each Node assign SID to itself and in further advertisi= ng it in IGP extension.=20 -------------------------------------- Thank you ! WANG Weibin =20 -----Original Message----- From: spring On Behalf Of Ron Bonica Sent: 2019=1B$BG/=1B(B8=1B$B7n=1B(B28=1B$BF|=1B(B 23:38 To: SPRING WG ; IPv6 List Subject: [spring] FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-spring-srv6= -plus-05.txt FYI Juniper Public -----Original Message----- From: internet-drafts@ietf.org =20 Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 11:31 AM To: Ron Bonica ; Shraddha Hegde = ; Andrew Alston ; Gang Chen ; Joel Halpern ; Andrew Alston ; Daniam Henriques ; Jen Linkova ; Yuji Kamite Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-05.txt A new version of I-D, draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-05.txt has been successfully submitted by Ron Bonica and posted to the IETF reposi= tory. Name: draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus Revision: 05 Title: IPv6 Support for Segment Routing: SRv6+ Document date: 2019-08-28 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 23 =20 Abstract: This document describes SRv6+. SRv6+ is a Segment Routing (SR) solution that leverages IPv6. It supports a wide variety of use- cases while remaining in strict compliance with IPv6 specifications. SRv6+ is optimized for ASIC-based forwarding devices that operate at high data rates. = =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_spring&d=3DDwIGoQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI= &r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DY7tg_WdE6dDTbLTNP7fA4m= mVNhGtWb9D_1Q0A228DOE&s=3DfDRQpSgY2T772Uheoj6CZ-n_K2TdcHCoa9_Mtz2GHGY&e=3D= =20 _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_spring&d=3DDwIGoQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI= &r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DJmHER-UU7JwsLRYG26SYPf= YLuC96QfLcNm2JoW0yecQ&s=3DIhcG7iCxBD1__lhlXruSQCfi_ueg0oNDHimr2q_a5G4&e=3D= =20 From nobody Tue Sep 3 09:52:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3136C12013A; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0rVxwagWU40C; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2d.google.com (mail-io1-xd2d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6DC4120801; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 09:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2d.google.com with SMTP id s21so37550583ioa.1; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 09:52:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=Wd+gNr4mi/eXjP+NV++KEcKAKtsXH1t9A+ybyVpH+6w=; b=HkC/nDLGTgaIkBZyPNcwrbPNYVZEFNXqRtYAWCrPwYXGYIJ1bGrd5+Aw6psq7wp02R x0E05sTV0lXSi/mfHbIBpuJJ93I/ApGMUUJOLWJ4koTBIXF1Y1wPyH+Jr4yWlS7q4dso 4NhjSMAnraAULjPOfZ4ndAw0yP+sJHEM2+6qD9YIKy9e2DTMOMC4BmBAysfETDXQ/F+0 bW9oE4bzGtwktSLDGOWnGAndtvfNogmUJxWzvWrf0Pc9fE8FVS1TJo7qlXzlvDHYvQ/A CXEdwGcfTZdVtB/yQsLstVZ+t1WwA6YGbOmTwJadZKglG/AvVQSxptZGVPqXjya0lYMc G2FA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date :message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=Wd+gNr4mi/eXjP+NV++KEcKAKtsXH1t9A+ybyVpH+6w=; b=YOtTQEfFUyxzB3NRdLYiMpszoWpILSW/mqFSLkryTeV6eJB4Zra2ZrMpIMeE9LkwOh UCB7XooxqK85DVO38JDicNUY+S1VDDm/mSDoj/PgpDyFHWtj0ZZw6HK/N9iUSk2bK0WT 33bip38n/+K2hTcaG+NUDy4SdBbEHPbDZGxI7v21MxMu/XkCJ87SJkgmgKagUQPt8O4V S7lk6HeG29jYRpJP1eGkTwdW3amRnELX1FPqcEc/Q7lFgnssJCObCs0ZBCVQzB76KmrE 05+pCBO2i3I4wIccoPnJF/7577ihgPXMd1Xmlp0IFw2wpRRUNAhe2BRnWCQ6PLFU0xjE sfWg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV3xWVjFItvRmlSgvX2esJ5cI10iCwNbbFs/KZzswRvM3+iaFML 0krI7t78DstMS6VOv6augJs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzQrMuRdKH8h/rRq3Ch561hvA0UVJbnWZl3a2hvs6GyYgN8aAnvPaHv6K8e9AUTxfGzJel+iA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:2aa:: with SMTP id d10mr37029147jaq.89.1567529557516; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 09:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BYAPR19MB3415.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:307:293b::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c10sm1608216iot.14.2019.09.03.09.52.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Sep 2019 09:52:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tarek Saad To: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: AWdMX3cxQNL7wwBEVBte2RBjbuftzDBGQjk12qn+9p4= X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 16:52:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR19MB3415D21403394F8129A4BAD8FCB90BYAPR19MB3415namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 16:52:43 -0000 --_000_BYAPR19MB3415D21403394F8129A4BAD8FCB90BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi WG, RFC8200 (section 4.4) defines the Routing Header as merely means to steer p= ackets across topological elements. My understanding of the SRv6+=92s propo= sal is that it strictly adheres to this and leaves any service or function = instructions to be carried in other parts of IPv6 header. This (among other= advantages) provides a clean delineation of the different layers of the ne= twork (underlay transport from overlay/services) and allows for possibility= of different overlay technologies to be seamlessly carried over SRv6+. This is in contrast to exposing overlays to a specific underlay technology = and forcing it to understand and encode the required bits of information it= requires within it. Feel free to correct me if I got it wrong. Regards, Tarek From: spring on behalf of Ron Bonica Date: Monday, September 2, 2019 at 9:23 AM To: Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Rob, There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing=85. Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architecture = that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in Routi= ng headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv= 6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery,= its specification promises it be painless and its deployment promises to b= e safe. To date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+= . Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those= claims may require scrutiny). By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 arc= hitecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been encoded i= n IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routi= ng header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn=92t exist. It freque= ntly tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy require= s another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 addresses= , draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-sprin= g-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM informati= on is encoded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined= , even when Segment Left is equal to zero. I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact. So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more conservative,= SRv6+ approach? This brings us to the back to the elephant in the room=85= .. Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 exte= nsion headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension headers a= t all, it was sent to the slow path. SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and Destination= Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a path towards mor= e complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has d= eveloped so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more = and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs. SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, whil= e doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destination Opt= ions in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. Howeve= r, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for t= he IETF. = Ron From: spring On Behalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: =B7 SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-= srv6-plus-04 =B7 uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-p= gm-extension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: =B7 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-= 00 =B7 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03<= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_= draft-2Dmirsky-2D6man-2Dunified-2Did-2Dsr-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr= 6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDTh= KP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJKdxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DgcbkHYxXm7FU7vblOB1= vI58SDaaWf62pa7YvLmsP4nI&e=3D> As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: =B7 use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) =B7 forwarding performance and scaling requirements o e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in ma= x and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs an= d shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different (*)= . =B7 if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circum= stances, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and= whether this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long te= rm. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR19MB3415D21403394F8129A4BAD8FCB90BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi WG,

 

RFC8200 (section 4.= 4) defines the Routing Header as merely means to steer packets across topol= ogical elements. My understanding of the SRv6+=92s proposal is that it = strictly adheres to this and leaves any service or function instructions to be carried in other parts of IPv6 header. This= (among other advantages) provides a clean delineation of the different lay= ers of the network (underlay transport from overlay/services) and allows fo= r possibility of different overlay technologies to be seamlessly carried over SRv6+.

 

This is in contrast= to exposing overlays to a specific underlay technology and forcing it to u= nderstand and encode the required bits of information it requires within it= . Feel free to correct me if I got it wrong.

 

Regards,=

Tarek

 

 

From: spring <spring-b= ounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dma= rc.ietf.org>
Date: Monday, September 2, 2019 at 9:23 AM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, SPRING W= G List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Rob,

 

There may be an elephant = in the room that needs addressing=85.

 

Over the years, the IPv6 = community has specified a very tight architecture that encodes some informa= tion in IPv6 addresses, other information in Routing headers, and still oth= er information in Destination Options headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuse= s IPv6 machinery, its specification promises it be painless and its deploym= ent promises to be safe. To date, there has been no significant technical c= riticism of SRv6+. Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those claims may require= scrutiny).

 

By contrast, SRv6 varies = from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 architecture. It encodes thi= ngs in IPv6 address that have never been encoded in IPv6 addresses before. = It attempts to encode everything else in the Routing header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn=92t exi= st. It frequently tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance.

 

This creates a situation = in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy requires another. For example, b= ecause SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-s= rv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM information is enco= ded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined, even whe= n Segment Left is equal to zero.

 

I invite everyone to cons= ider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact.

 

So, why would the IETF wo= uld want to prevent work on the more conservative, SRv6+ approach? &nbs= p;This brings us to the back to the elephant in the room=85..

 

Until very recently, rela= tively few router vendors have supported IPv6 extension headers in ASICs. I= f an IPv6 packet contained any extension headers at all, it was sent to the= slow path.

 

SRv6+ encourages rout= er vendors to support both the Routing and Destination Options header in AS= ICs. This sets vendors on a path on a path towards more complete implementa= tion of the architecture that the IPv6 community has developed so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit= more and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs.

 

SRv6 encourages router ve= ndors to support the Routing header in ASICs, while doing everything possib= le to mitigate the need to support Destination Options in ASICs. This may b= e a necessary expedient for many platforms. However, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approac= h for the IETF.

 

    &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =  Ron

 

 

 

 

From: spring <s= pring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPR= ING WG,

 

Over t= he last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Netwo= rkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SR= v6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.

 

These = encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During= the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to the r= eduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane:

=B7         SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04

=B7         uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-us= id-01 

 

During= the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed:=

=B7         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-s= rv6-np-00 

=B7         https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr= -03 

 

As we = expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understand what= the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is important = that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both fr= om the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologi= es, and from that of the software/hardware implementation.

 

Theref= ore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over the I= Pv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:

=B7         use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE)<= /span>

=B7         forwarding performance and scaling requirements

o    e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number o= f SID required in max and average). For the latter, if possible using both = SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).

=B7         if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in= their circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is= required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term.

 

As wel= l as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to briefly = describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit the depl= oyment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the u= se of shorter SIDs would improve the deployments .

 

For bo= th of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG= . If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it directly to = the chairs & AD (Martin).

 

This c= all for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminde= r, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. 

 

Thank = you,

-- Rob= & Bruno

 

(*) As= expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a= node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required.<= /o:p>

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KtvXAsgIKdW5; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 11:21:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB75612002F; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 11:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: spring@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.foobar.org (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x83ILoYV031256 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Sep 2019 19:21:51 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.foobar.org To: Rob Shakir Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 19:21:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.18 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------64AE26BA7FCD4E691727789E" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2019 18:22:02 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------64AE26BA7FCD4E691727789E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rob, Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate for draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further unless the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing required can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that the operational community operates within. If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from the global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then the authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortable changing their allocation policies to accommodate this. Nick > Ron Bonica > 1 September 2019 at 22:10 > Hi Fernando, > > 6man participants should look at the following: > > - > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 > (In particular, Sections 4 and 5) > - > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-02 > > Ron > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fernando Gont > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM > To: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; > SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > Hi, Ron, > > For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could > you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of > RFC8200 or RFC4291"? > > In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly > RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the > same, or what. > > Thanks! > > Cheers, > Fernando > > > > > > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Fernando Gont > 31 August 2019 at 21:53 > Hi, Ron, > > For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could > you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of > RFC8200 or RFC4291"? > > In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly > RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the > same, or what. > > Thanks! > > Cheers, > Fernando > > > > > > Ron Bonica > 31 August 2019 at 21:33 > > Rob, > > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: > > * Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > * Operational Simplicity > * SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 > > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that > contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for > implementations to forward at line speed  and without consuming > excessive overhead bandwidth. > > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot > satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 > segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could > process such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be > prohibitive. > > Therefore, one of the four solutions  that you mention below is > required to make SRv6 deployable. While > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four > competing solutions mentioned below are equally mature and should be > given equal consideration. > > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. > > Operational Simplicity > > ----------------------------- > > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely > interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and > RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce > operational complexity. The following are architectural quirks of >  draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header: > > * The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than > routing. Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that > traverse the least-cost path from source to destination > * The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. > * The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid > and how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination > address contains one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be > processed in one particular way, while if the IPv6 destination > address contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might > be totally invalid. > > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming  promises more > architectural quirks. For example: > > * Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers > * An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > * IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next > Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even > though the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload. > > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For > example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to > examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because > the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. > > Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid > requires network operators to obtain address space and number their > networks in a particular way to make routing work. > > SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > SRv6+  has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on > JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is > fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM > document. It’s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. > > Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict > interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the > working group, they won’t need to overcome the objections that are > inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a > specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200. > >                                                                                                Thanks, > >                                                                      Ron > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Rob Shakir > *Sent:* Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > *To:* SPRING WG List > *Subject:* [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > Hi SPRING WG, > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing > in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) > and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP > in UDP or GRE. > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were > related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > * SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04 > > * uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 > > > * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we > think it is important that the WG should first get to a common > understanding on the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a > smaller SID - both from the perspective of operators that are looking > to deploy these technologies, and from that of the software/hardware > implementation. > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > * forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > o e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID > required in max and average). For the latter, if possible > using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as > the number would typically be different (*). > > * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution > is required and whether this solution is needed for the short term > only or for the long term. > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community > to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing > which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related > to the number of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much > the use of shorter SIDs would improve the deployments . > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to > the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please > send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. > As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via > spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via > spring-ads@ietf.org . > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be > required. > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------64AE26BA7FCD4E691727789E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rob,

Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate for draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further unless the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing required can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that the operational community operates within.

If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from the global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then the authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortable changing their allocation policies to accommodate this.

Nick
1 September 2019 at 22:10
Hi Fernando,

6man participants should look at the following:

- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 (In particular, Sections 4 and 5)
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-02

Ron


Juniper Business Use Only

-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

Hi, Ron,

For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of
RFC8200 or RFC4291"?

In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Fernando





--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492



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31 August 2019 at 21:53
Hi, Ron,

For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could
you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of
RFC8200 or RFC4291"?

In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly
RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the
same, or what.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Fernando





31 August 2019 at 21:33

Rob,

 

The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+:

 

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6

 

Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists

----------------------------------------------------

 

SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implementations to forward at line speed  and without consuming excessive overhead bandwidth.

 

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.

 

Therefore, one of the four solutions  that you mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mature and should be given equal consideration.

 

The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky.

 

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------

Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The following are architectural quirks of  draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:

 

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid.

 

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming  promises more architectural quirks. For example:

 

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
  • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload.

 

Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information.

 

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a particular way to make routing work.

 

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work

--------------------------------------------------------

SRv6+  has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It’s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.

 

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won’t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8200.

 

                                                                                                      Thanks,

                                                                                                          Ron

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.

 

These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of the software/hardware implementation.

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding performance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term.

 

As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would improve the deployments .

 

For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

 

This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. 

 

Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno

 

(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required.

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only



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[45.19.110.76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p199sm4120409ywe.1.2019.09.03.19.23.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Sep 2019 19:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Suresh Krishnan In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 22:23:43 -0400 Cc: Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 02:23:50 -0000 Hi Fernando, > On Sep 3, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Fernando Gont = wrote: >=20 > Hello, Suresh, >=20 > On 2/9/19 19:07, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > [....] >>>> So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the >>>> motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on = Option 1. >>>=20 >>> My argument would be: >>> Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they feel = the >>> need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*, post = an >>> internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for the >>> insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published, and = only >>> then suggest to do EH insertion. >>=20 >> I have put down my thoughts on the future of header insertion work in = a >> mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be found below >>=20 >> = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizhoT5Rl-TjRc >=20 > This seems e bit misleading. What I would expect is that before any = work > is published on EH-insertion, the IPv6 standard is updated to allow = for > EH insertion. (plese see bellow) >=20 >>> P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in = the >>> context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf = document >>> suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs >>> make sure that's not the case anymore. >>=20 >> Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, = I >> will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are = fixed. >=20 > Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or leave = the > IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has had = consensus > that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be bad, wastefull, > tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go through the whole > publication process, and just rely on the AD to keep the "DISCUSS" > button pressed. >=20 > Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf and > have the corresponding wg ship the document with something that = clearly > goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has declared = that > wouldn't let pass? In short, this is not the case. I am *not* the relevant AD for the SRv6 = Network Programming draft. If this document was in 6man I would have = flagged it much earlier like I did for the SRH draft. Thanks Suresh From nobody Tue Sep 3 19:50:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4B8120090; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 19:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lySnJdl1ZTR0; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 19:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8F91120072; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 19:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2C2F9860B7; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 04:50:27 +0200 (CEST) To: Suresh Krishnan Cc: Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 05:50:14 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 02:50:34 -0000 On 4/9/19 05:23, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Hi Fernando, > >> On Sep 3, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Fernando Gont >> wrote: >> >> Hello, Suresh, >> >> On 2/9/19 19:07, Suresh Krishnan wrote: [....] [....] >> >> Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or >> leave the IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has >> had consensus that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be >> bad, wastefull, tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go >> through the whole publication process, and just rely on the AD to >> keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed. >> >> Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf >> and have the corresponding wg ship the document with something that >> clearly goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has >> declared that wouldn't let pass? > > In short, this is not the case. I am *not* the relevant AD for the > SRv6 Network Programming draft. If this document was in 6man I would > have flagged it much earlier like I did for the SRH draft. Sorry, what I meant by "relevant AD" is: "one of the responsible ADs for the spec that's being violated". i.e., isn't there in the IETF process -- whether formal or informal -- for this sort of thing to be flagged before documents get too far in the publication process? ("Hey, this document in your area is actually breaking a spec of one of my wgs" sort of thing...) Thanks! -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Tue Sep 3 20:58:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C00212008A; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 20:58:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rjJUNN9wq0VL; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 20:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E60C1200C7; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 20:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com with SMTP id c9so6834226ybf.2; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 20:58:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=LtwKQWrpzbn4W/oUVPe0xcxv4A8ZmHk7mrry+zpll4M=; b=XHNdnF/vhBlczi8GMbETlgqGLZ4pJx3A8SdgiaJh5F7iJ52bsJDTi4q223CTTycRj5 X0FGTfiBNdyWhbT5c74igWVrfXYo8fwXlGVgrxKpuaCL2MYQKLyLiD5Gzs+kii/7aowi i3S7oNFmOOfLF7Xqj2r9Lz1b3jdK6pr+WIklPorne8l97CZrUi12OH6yiFyCgx/p52hH O38MyFC5FwNjBJQvZj7yE48bNrNZhdeBZhUmKWQ7puPEEeUwT5u8nrMpB7tZdArGyVs+ sjANRpFnFNcaLyzMnHo9uIc3X1EWU3KJQpkdLCSA7oEkRRnXaG03NuwOEkLGAo7uuFx+ Ja5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=LtwKQWrpzbn4W/oUVPe0xcxv4A8ZmHk7mrry+zpll4M=; b=WTGmiqrK+TK1rOhCcn/zfquQ+rccFCNnV6KSuC3g2OcIZs2xPj4L2ip2vOwrwIrk8C pFuW3LhMhLx2zgvXpRchiM8c3to03K8yEj3KDLnlwTEsO2nlgU85r2w1HB68uY/T9bWM O+L6PjF4vgZjCeqi9cSlcOu/afNBqMteCJtHEto+oqxO1WoDBwX+uSg5YjcfO5mPdQyH 1pWbrRiCUanfF/E6LojLEEhObXlR/t79TA9NBKZn0T+BqQPNrYpr5+IpQyhZi0i+VPJ+ ji5iI3wzmaqwEzrjkYLI6H2vJKmBPhyFFIubVA9LjgCMDYjHNsmdYQj2wJ61qKtoRUMZ mtew== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU7XmnL4POzFitCUImKxfLzEfvYrrHYN9rtWpYomoYFIrF0M/rC +G01iXVEP376laOdFv23vAc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyh9Oub6qAyqs1MT/tbR3MBZ4xZcdwPLkwNLFbyApIpna6QGCGYIAyP2Ag4DxNhVDO7dox2gg== X-Received: by 2002:a25:a2c1:: with SMTP id c1mr28106838ybn.177.1567569527546; Tue, 03 Sep 2019 20:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.2] (45-19-110-76.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net. [45.19.110.76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c80sm2056243ywa.3.2019.09.03.20.58.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Sep 2019 20:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Suresh Krishnan In-Reply-To: <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2019 23:58:45 -0400 Cc: Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 03:58:52 -0000 Hi Fernando, > On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:50 PM, Fernando Gont = wrote: >=20 > On 4/9/19 05:23, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >> Hi Fernando, >>=20 >>> On Sep 3, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Fernando Gont >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hello, Suresh, >>>=20 >>> On 2/9/19 19:07, Suresh Krishnan wrote: [....] > [....] >>>=20 >>> Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or >>> leave the IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has >>> had consensus that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be >>> bad, wastefull, tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go >>> through the whole publication process, and just rely on the AD to >>> keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed. >>>=20 >>> Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf >>> and have the corresponding wg ship the document with something that >>> clearly goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has >>> declared that wouldn't let pass? >>=20 >> In short, this is not the case. I am *not* the relevant AD for the >> SRv6 Network Programming draft. If this document was in 6man I would >> have flagged it much earlier like I did for the SRH draft. >=20 > Sorry, what I meant by "relevant AD" is: "one of the responsible ADs = for > the spec that's being violated". >=20 > i.e., isn't there in the IETF process -- whether formal or informal -- > for this sort of thing to be flagged before documents get too far in = the > publication process? ("Hey, this document in your area is actually > breaking a spec of one of my wgs" sort of thing=E2=80=A6) Nothing official. This is one of the main reasons that we have IESG = evaluation (to find any cross area issues). That said, nothing stops an = AD from doing this as a WG participant in the other area, but the real = question is whether the issue still exists when the document hits the = IESG.=20 Thanks Suresh= From nobody Tue Sep 3 23:58:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52E0120020; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 23:58:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0SdIw801uWUZ; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 23:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13EFC1200C4; Tue, 3 Sep 2019 23:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 66F814E11B54; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 06:58:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D63B1B72F1E; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 08:58:06 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 08:58:06 +0200 Cc: Suresh Krishnan , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org> References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 06:58:13 -0000 Fernando, >>> Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or >>> leave the IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has >>> had consensus that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be >>> bad, wastefull, tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go >>> through the whole publication process, and just rely on the AD to >>> keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed. >>>=20 >>> Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf >>> and have the corresponding wg ship the document with something that >>> clearly goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has >>> declared that wouldn't let pass? >>=20 >> In short, this is not the case. I am *not* the relevant AD for the >> SRv6 Network Programming draft. If this document was in 6man I would >> have flagged it much earlier like I did for the SRH draft. >=20 > Sorry, what I meant by "relevant AD" is: "one of the responsible ADs = for > the spec that's being violated". >=20 > i.e., isn't there in the IETF process -- whether formal or informal -- > for this sort of thing to be flagged before documents get too far in = the > publication process? ("Hey, this document in your area is actually > breaking a spec of one of my wgs" sort of thing...) I would prefer that we calmed down a bit on the protocol policing. We know that header insertion breaks unsuspecting source hosts if done = by the network. It breaks (at least) PMTUD, ICMP errors and AH. What we have said in the past is; explain how those issues are dealt = with or do not apply to your proposal. And some form of "doing on behalf of" is not necessarily problematic. It's the "blind" "Thou shalt not do" that I object to. As opposed to = arguing on technical grounds. Ensuring interoperability is our purpose. Not protect 8200 as if it's a = religious text. Ole From nobody Wed Sep 4 03:48:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1391200E0 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 03:48:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ecitele.com header.b=FcdRgDn3; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (body has been altered)" header.d=eci365.onmicrosoft.com header.b=kgaz4Bi1 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=juniper.net; dkim=pass header.d=juniper.net; arc=none Received: from BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.177.185.144) by BYAPR05MB6549.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.178.234.75) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2241.12; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 18:27:54 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f4f2:f284:d49a:890a]) by BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f4f2:f284:d49a:890a%4]) with mapi id 15.20.2241.014; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 18:27:54 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont CC: Suresh Krishnan , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) Thread-Index: AdVjS14TVsuRj78sSeu1r8rfsn3VOQ== Content-Class: Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 18:27:54 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A/A6H9f6SiteYPfekoA5eNYSbG3jUZQEDPK5Y8ciVs/vn/czXtVdN/FXPgrGIalTHkIMVkWdz8tQPm2oIfh1hQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6549 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-04_05:2019-09-04,2019-09-04 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 malwarescore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909040183 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 18:28:08 -0000 Ole, Yes, a deep breath and some introspection are always a good thing. First, I think that we need to make a distinction between the "spirit" and = "letter" of the law. Next, we need to make a statement regarding good engin= eering practice. RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example, In an IPv6 header, the source a= ddress must precede the destination address. Any attempt to reverse those t= wo would violate the letter of the law. By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests other things. For example, transit = nodes should not insert or delete extension headers. In general, these sugg= estions should be heeded. But exemptions can be granted, on a case-by-case = basis, given that the motivation is strong, the risk is minimal, and there = are no viable alternatives. For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use RFC 2119 language. So it is diff= icult to distinguish between the spirit and letter of the law. I think that= is the genesis of the current debate. Beyond that, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering practic= e. If a technology violates the spirit of RFC 8200 once, with good reason, = that is fine. If it violates the spirit of RFC 8200 twice, we should all st= art asking questions. If it violates the spirit of RFC 8200 three times, an= d promises to do so again in the future, we should start to question whethe= r that technology is building on RFC 8200 or trying to redefine it. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Ole Troan =20 Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 2:58 AM To: Fernando Gont Cc: Suresh Krishnan ; Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-i= nsertion ; draft-ietf= -spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function [ snip ] I would prefer that we calmed down a bit on the protocol policing. [ snip ] From nobody Wed Sep 4 12:04:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CEAF120C07; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 12:04:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3UFtcUSEyryh; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 12:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45A92120B83; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 12:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id w195so11878279vsw.11; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 12:04:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=GL3Se9nwVOxTAHiXaZAVHJpweW+kQgD8Bw3VtG5len4=; b=ihbrssg8G+9bMNCxZgHCnzOMfoYd5URIcXyb63PcxMqiUOnkDebq7Ea/jh3J8lUcMC EickLKRoQTrY8QutHolbyMNgUqX4o2+8KvIEO6EKjtfCCWYDmxF6LvLoOXEwhJFOyGCu OIRWfh4LdFJZae7s8r0YGXWcfDpqkQjGdUxy9fHzBWDO1mG5ytmkE8AeXourDzCgHYE6 2/72bPdw4+G4OgMbtSx7aEYVYOIcWF0ja8Dny9ioawwtRfSEN8SRIUhLi6uQaDr1jNTo i8he7tRJeCXr7shWqvvtVPiW6tzfH88S+TTRh/tBj8eAhPH91ibFH67UiAAnu3O+jhs/ rDdg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=GL3Se9nwVOxTAHiXaZAVHJpweW+kQgD8Bw3VtG5len4=; b=AS4K+21VN5OBkFyDE58KmD5dfqPuML/t8DwpCJPNer0/5Kx6TNQYjp84tg/kD2sHVI 5BOv0qzuNidaIfeOvJ2kERcecwTbMtdyz8n1cP+0t9rVL2ayugKsqklUdoDqGTwvq0v1 yW/kepQMny7gFMPgciNfQDUjUmgoJEeeu3fjT9rpAhmLMpkLQJdyfVaRWQzfAHz0ppPu gkJaPNiRlsNdVPJTHkLPKx6yPKSUHaqmv4N1eeZpjptae8EEgSoG8PuaSLeeAJSyUggx 65M4cIfVcAR+TZRHcJjNXGa6ZqV7hj9mRbXzB8E6iz4RYy/iBXonQX++v7g2BLWqxp99 veXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXeEwqclwtcDgAiWAbP8iZEK1zCTan1ibRYcu6rj5NetygLb14n zdcwzJRDgjYz7V7A3HBvPO5gObVoySDxEcvmvP377nhA1g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz7oFz18j05Oj6WktRPK+teEZ8qgtaMBIIkVGCFUYkrXhNwi5zbTBvtXQCILDSRtO7LGVlk48Igmf3pAzIPl84= X-Received: by 2002:a67:1a41:: with SMTP id a62mr6195277vsa.54.1567623838952; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 12:03:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Reji Thomas Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 00:33:47 +0530 Message-ID: To: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000ff1be0591bede63" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 19:04:13 -0000 --0000000000000ff1be0591bede63 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi WG Folks, Its not clear on why the SRv6 has to alter the address semantics and push the service functions into v6 address space. Maybe rationale on why this was done would help to appreciate why this path was chosen. >From my understanding the SRv6+ spec shows these defined service functions are best represented by destination options and is in line with the IPv6 architecture document leaving the address space semantics intact. In SRv6 the SID is defined as LOC:FUNCT:ARGS. It is not clear on why this fixed address space would be sufficient for arguments. I believe if the same cannot fit in 128 bit address space it needs to be overflown into another SID or into a TLV. Doesn=E2=80=99t th= is semantics suggest that TLV is the best place to encode this information and should be in a destination option header in first place? It also seems that the TLV space in SR header might turn out to be a catch all block wrt SR. For example In-situ OAM IPv6 Options for Srv6 are getting pushed to SR TLVs whereas for generic V6 I see there is another draft ( https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-options-02) which pushes them into destination options/hop-by-hop. With the dilution of semantics of headers are we looking at more conflicts of SRv6 model with generic V6 features in future?. HMAC TLV is used to protect the SRH. It not clear on how the same would interoperate with AH. When AH is included are we going to end with both AH and HMAC TLV ? The uSID draft for reducing the SRH overhead seems to be a hack at present and its still not clear on how the same is going to be used with function semantics. SRv6+ confirms to the V6 architecture, explains the rationale behind the design and is non ambiguous to start with. Till now there has not been any valid shortcomings brought forth with the Srv6+ design. I saw a mention that SRv6+ needs to distribute the SID to address binding and hence require extensions to protocols which is not what was intended by SR. Considering at a bare minimum we would need a software/microcode update to support even the SRH parsing, I didn=E2=80=99t understand why protocol extension and ma= pping for SR support with V6 is a bad idea. Please correct me if there is a gap in my understanding. In view of the above ,I support SRv6+ work to continue in the SPRING WG. Regards Reji > From: spring on behalf of Ron Bonica > > Date: Monday, September 2, 2019 at 9:23 AM > To: Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List < > spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > Rob, > > There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing?. > > Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architectur= e > that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in > Routing headers, and still other information in Destination Options > headers. SRv6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses > IPv6 machinery, its specification promises it be painless and its > deployment promises to be safe. To date, there has been no significant > technical criticism of SRv6+. Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete a= nd > good enough. (Both of those claims may require scrutiny). > > By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 > architecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been > encoded in IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else i= n > the Routing header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn?t exist. = It > frequently tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. > > This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy > requires another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 > addresses, draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, > draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 > orthodoxy. OAM information is encoded in the Routing header and the Routi= ng > header must be examined, even when Segment Left is equal to zero. > > I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact. > > So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more > conservative, SRv6+ approach? This brings us to the back to the elephant > in the room?.. > > Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 > extension headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension > headers at all, it was sent to the slow path. > > SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and > Destination Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a pat= h > towards more complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 > community has developed so carefully over the years. It encourages vendor= s > to commit more and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs. > > SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, > while doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destinati= on > Options in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. > However, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approa= ch > for the IETF. > > > Ron > > > > > From: spring On Behalf Of Rob Shakir > Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > To: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in > NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and > IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP o= r > GRE. > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related > to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > ? SRv6+ / CRH -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04< > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm= l_draft-2Dbonica-2Dspring-2Dsrv6-2Dplus-2D04&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6S= cbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP= 8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJKdxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DKUhAfjVsx_wK645uJk0FH= zs2vxiAVr-CskMPAaEhEQQ&e=3D > > > ? uSID -- > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-= usid-01 > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm= l_draft-2Dfilsfils-2Dspring-2Dnet-2Dpgm-2Dextension-2Dsrv6-2Dusid-2D01&d=3D= DwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx= 84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJKdxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s= &s=3DAq1DK7fu73axZ1PXLIE8xnHE2AhTtNZy9LTHgWqx4CQ&e=3D > > > > > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > ? > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00< > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm= l_draft-2Dli-2Dspring-2Dcompressed-2Dsrv6-2Dnp-2D00&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63= rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcA= wrDThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJKdxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DXWUDAD2FMhWLfe= T5sgUb1lgthJhugcyT98GJ2N-CrKs&e=3D > > > ? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03< > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_htm= l_draft-2Dmirsky-2D6man-2Dunified-2Did-2Dsr-2D03&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsu= hr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrD= ThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJKdxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DgcbkHYxXm7FU7vblO= B1vI58SDaaWf62pa7YvLmsP4nI&e=3D > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to > understand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think > it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on > the requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from > the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, > and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR > over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > ? use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > ? forwarding performance and scaling requirements > o e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in > max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s > and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different > (*). > ? if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their > circumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is > required and whether this solution is needed for the short term only or f= or > the long term. > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to > briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limi= t > the deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number o= f > SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SI= Ds > would improve the deployments . > > > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the > SPRING WG.. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it > directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a > reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org > and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org spring-ads@ietf.org>. > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two > instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be requir= ed. > > > > --0000000000000ff1be0591bede63 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
=C2=A0
Hi WG Folks,

Its not clear on why the SRv6 has to alter the ad=
dress semantics and push the service functions into v6 address space. Maybe=
 rationale on why this was done would help to appreciate why this path was =
chosen. From my understanding the SRv6+ spec shows these defined service fu=
nctions are best represented by destination options and is in line with the=
 IPv6 architecture document leaving the address space semantics intact. In =
SRv6 the SID is defined as LOC:FUNCT:ARGS. It is not clear on why this fixe=
d address space would be sufficient for arguments. I believe if the same ca=
nnot fit in 128 bit address space it needs to be overflown into another SID=
 or into a TLV. Doesn=E2=80=99t this semantics suggest that TLV is the best=
 place to encode this information and should be in a destination option hea=
der in first place?
=C2=A0
It =
also seems that the TLV space in SR header might turn out to be a catch all=
 block wrt SR. For example=C2=A0=C2=A0In-situ OAM IPv6 Options for Srv6 are getting pushed to SR TL=
Vs whereas for generic V6 I see there is another draft (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ioametal-ippm-6man-ioam-ipv6-o=
ptions-02)=C2=
=A0=C2=A0which pushes them into destination options/hop-by-hop.=C2=A0 With=C2=A0the dilution=
 of semantics of headers are we looking at more conflicts of SRv6 model wit=
h generic V6 features in future?.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0HMAC TLV is used to protect the SRH. It not clear on how the same would in=
teroperate with AH. When AH is included are we going to end with both AH an=
d HMAC TLV ?
=C2=A0
The uSID draft for reducing the SRH overhead seems to be=
 a hack at present and its still not clear on how the same is going to be u=
sed with function semantics.=C2=A0
<=
span>=C2=A0
S=
Rv6+ =C2=A0confirms to the V6 architecture, explains the rationale behind t=
he design and is non ambiguous to start with. Till now there has not been a=
ny valid shortcomings brought forth with the Srv6+ design. I saw a mention =
that SRv6+ needs to distribute the SID to address binding and hence require=
 extensions to protocols which is not what was intended by SR. Considering =
at a bare minimum we would need a software/microcode update to support even=
 the SRH parsing, I didn=E2=80=99t understand why=C2=A0=C2=A0protocol exten=
sion and mapping for SR support with V6 is a bad idea. Please correct me if=
 there is a gap in my understanding.
=C2=A0
In view of the above ,I support SRv6+ work to continue in t=
he SPRING WG.
=C2=A0


Regards=

Reji

=C2=A0

From: sprin=
g <spring-bounces@ietf.org=
=
> on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Monday, September 2, 2019 at 9:23 AM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>,= "6man@ietf.org= " <6man@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

Rob,

There may be an elephant in the room that needs addressing?.

Over the years, the IPv6 community has specified a very tight architecture = that encodes some information in IPv6 addresses, other information in Routi= ng headers, and still other information in Destination Options headers. SRv= 6+ adheres strictly to this architecture. Because it reuses IPv6 machinery,= its specification promises it be painless and its deployment promises to b= e safe. To date, there has been no significant technical criticism of SRv6+= . Only a claim that SRv6 is nearly complete and good enough. (Both of those= claims may require scrutiny).

By contrast, SRv6 varies from the spirit, if not the letter of the IPv6 arc= hitecture. It encodes things in IPv6 address that have never been encoded i= n IPv6 addresses before. It attempts to encode everything else in the Routi= ng header, as if the other IPv6 extension headers didn?t exist. It frequent= ly tests the limits of RFC 8200 compliance.

This creates a situation in which each variance from IPv6 orthodoxy require= s another. For example, because SRv6 encodes instructions in IPv6 addresses= , draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam is required. And now, draft-ali-6man-sprin= g-srv6-oam creates its own variances from the IPv6 orthodoxy. OAM informati= on is encoded in the Routing header and the Routing header must be examined= , even when Segment Left is equal to zero.

I invite everyone to consider how TI-LFA an uSID will interact.

So, why would the IETF would want to prevent work on the more conservative,= SRv6+ approach?=C2=A0 This brings us to the back to the elephant in the ro= om?..

Until very recently, relatively few router vendors have supported IPv6 exte= nsion headers in ASICs. If an IPv6 packet contained any extension headers a= t all, it was sent to the slow path.

SRv6+ encourages router vendors to support both the Routing and Destination= Options header in ASICs. This sets vendors on a path on a path towards mor= e complete implementation of the architecture that the IPv6 community has d= eveloped so carefully over the years. It encourages vendors to commit more = and more of RFC 8200 to ASICs.

SRv6 encourages router vendors to support the Routing header in ASICs, whil= e doing everything possible to mitigate the need to support Destination Opt= ions in ASICs. This may be a necessary expedient for many platforms. Howeve= r, it should not be the only approach, or even the long-term approach for t= he IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron




From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.


Hi SPRING WG,


Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.

These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor).


During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane:
?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-04<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh= ttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dbonica-2Dspring-2Dsrv6-2Dplus-2D04&= ;d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch= 9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJK= dxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DKUhAfjVsx_wK645uJk0FHzs2vxiAVr-CskMPAaEhEQQ&e= =3D>
?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-ne= t-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ie= tf.org_html_draft-2Dfilsfils-2Dspring-2Dnet-2Dpgm-2Dextension-2Dsrv6-2Dusid= -2D01&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&am= p;r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a= -1NaGRDJKdxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DAq1DK7fu73axZ1PXLIE8xnHE2AhTtNZy9LTHgWqx= 4CQ&e=3D>


During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed:
?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dh= ttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dli-2Dspring-2Dcompressed-2Dsrv6-2Dnp-2= D00&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&= r=3DFch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1= NaGRDJKdxnE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DXWUDAD2FMhWLfeT5sgUb1lgthJhugcyT98GJ2N-CrK= s&e=3D>
?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A_= _tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dmirsky-2D6man-2Dunified-2Did-2Dsr-2D03&d= =3DDwMFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DFch9F= Q82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=3DackZC9evRf_LWYu2a-1NaGRDJKdx= nE2ieIC4dD_FL6s&s=3DgcbkHYxXm7FU7vblOB1vI58SDaaWf62pa7YvLmsP4nI&e= =3D>


As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation.


Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their:
?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit ro= uting/TE)
?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarding performance and scaling requi= rements
o=C2=A0 =C2=A0 e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID requ= ired in max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-b= it SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be dif= ferent (*).
?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if the existing SRv6 approach is not dep= loyable in their circumstances, details of the requirement of a different s= olution is required and whether this solution is needed for the short term = only or for the long term.


As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6=C2=A0 In particular limitations related to the number = of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter S= IDs would improve the deployments .


For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG.. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direc= tly to the chairs & AD (Martin).


This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org<mailto:spring-chairs@ietf.org= > and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org<mailto:spring-ads@ietf.org>.


Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno


(*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required.



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Wed, 4 Sep 2019 15:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR01-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db5eur01lp2054.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.2.54]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-3-3aOFkZFnMAWLwvF0CZegfA-1; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 23:17:59 +0100 Received: from VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.112.208) by VE1PR03MB5375.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.112.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2220.19; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 22:17:57 +0000 Received: from VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c456:2d7a:c516:486c]) by VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c456:2d7a:c516:486c%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2199.021; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 22:17:57 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: SPRING WG List , "ipv6@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Questions about draft-ietf-spring-srv6-networking-programming and draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid Thread-Index: AdVjbjzq0JzuG6CTQi63zXD7u8AURw== Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2019 22:17:57 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [197.155.81.57] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 33142c4b-f8a2-439e-28e0-08d73185bdb0 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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boundary="_000_VE1PR03MB542290761D37661F112B9763EEB80VE1PR03MB5422eurp_" Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Questions about draft-ietf-spring-srv6-networking-programming and draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2019 22:18:07 -0000 --_000_VE1PR03MB542290761D37661F112B9763EEB80VE1PR03MB5422eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, The following things in the drafts referenced in the subject line are quest= ions that I feel need to be addressed - since having gone through these dra= fts closely in light of some of the comments on the spring list and cross r= eferenced and checked a number of things - there are a number of things tha= t significantly concern me. Firstly - in section 3 of the network programming draft an attempt is made = to define SID syntax and semantics. Now, when cross referenced with sectio= n 2 of the draft, it states "SID: A segment identifier which represents a s= pecific segment in the segment routing domain. The SID type used in this d= ocument is IPv6 address (also referenced as SRv6 Segment or SRv6 SID)" The semantics specified in the network programming draft state that the hig= h order bits are a locator, the next bits are a function, and the next bits= are arguments to a function. (Page 6 paragraph 6, "We represent an SRv6 S= ID as LOC:FUNC where LOC (locator) is the L most significant bits and FUNCT= (function) is the 128-L last significant bits. This is quite clearly a re-definition of the IPv6 address semantics as spec= ified in RFC4291, which that's that IPv6 addresses are 128-bit identifiers = for interfaces and sets of interfaces (Section 2 of RFC4291) Section 2.5 of the RFC4291 also states that IPv6 unicast addresses are aggr= egable with prefixes of arbitrary bit-length. Aggregation of semantics spe= cified in the network programming draft does not seem possible. This also = has relevance when we consider that SID's are indeed addresses, and we find= this in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header in section 4.2 Then we move to section 4.13 and 4.14 of the network programming draft, whi= ch define the END.B6-INSERT and the END.B6.INSERT.RED SID types. These ty= pes cause transit nodes to insert SRH's. They are explicit in their statem= ent that they can insert a second SRH in a packet that already has an SRH.= This conflicts with RFC8200 section 4 which states that extension headers= , except for hop-hop-hop option headers, are not processed, inserted or del= eted by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches t= he node. Further to this, sections 4.21.1 and 4.21.2, when referencing PSP and USP f= lavors of the END, END.X and END.T functions all cause transit nodes to pop= the top most SRH, which again, conflicts with RFC8200 Section 4. Further to this, section 5.2 and 5.3, which define the T.INSERT and T.INSER= T.RED behaviors will cause transit nodes to insert SRH's - again - in confl= ict with RFC8200 Section 4. Then, the following questions are things I would like to see addressed as c= oncerns the uSID draft. Firstly, I feel that this draft again redefines the IPv6 address semantics = in ways that are very far removed from what is defined in RFC4291, and that= is concerning. Secondly, I do not understand how draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-s= rv6-usid is compatible with the network programming draft. Due to the sema= ntics of the addressing specified in the network programming draft, the mom= ent you start shifting an address in the way this draft specifies, you star= t to effectively break the locator/function semantics - and as such, progra= mmability is only really possible at the end nodes. Now, the argument has = been put forward that you can retain the full SID stack while still shiftin= g the address in the uSID approach - however, my question then becomes, if = you do this to retain compatibility with the network programming draft, do = you not lose any point in actually having uSID at all - since it was design= ed to address overhead, and the overhead has just returned again. I really feel that these things need to be addressed - because while I unde= rstand that there are things which are mandatory, and things which are opti= onal and in the spirit of a draft, and while I feel that if something isn'= t specified as mandatory but is clearly in the spirit, there may be occasio= ns where something may be deviated from, what I see here is an entire redef= inition of the address semantics, and multiple conflicts with segments of R= FC8200 - in a consistent and what I consider to be an egregious manner. I look forward to hearing responses Thanks Andrew --_000_VE1PR03MB542290761D37661F112B9763EEB80VE1PR03MB5422eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

 

The following things in the dra= fts referenced in the subject line are questions that I feel need to be add= ressed – since having gone through these drafts closely in light of s= ome of the comments on the spring list and cross referenced and checked a number of things – there are a number= of things that significantly concern me.

 

Firstly – in section 3 of= the network programming draft an attempt is made to define SID syntax and = semantics.  Now, when cross referenced with section 2 of the draft, it= states “SID: A segment identifier which represents a specific segment in the segment routing domain.  The SID type used = in this document is IPv6 address (also referenced as SRv6 Segment or SRv6 S= ID)”

The semantics specified in the = network programming draft state that the high order bits are a locator, the= next bits are a function, and the next bits are arguments to a function.&n= bsp; (Page 6 paragraph 6, “We represent an SRv6 SID as LOC:FUNC where LOC (locator) is the L most significant bits an= d FUNCT (function) is the 128-L last significant bits.

This is quite clearly a re-defi= nition of the IPv6 address semantics as specified in RFC4291, which that= 217;s that IPv6 addresses are 128-bit identifiers for interfaces and sets o= f interfaces (Section 2 of RFC4291)

Section 2.5 of the RFC4291 also= states that IPv6 unicast addresses are aggregable with prefixes of arbitra= ry bit-length.  Aggregation of semantics specified in the network prog= ramming draft does not seem possible.  This also has relevance when we consider that SID’s are indeed addresses,= and we find this in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header in section 4.2

 

Then we move to section 4.13 an= d 4.14 of the network programming draft, which define the END.B6-INSERT and= the END.B6.INSERT.RED  SID types.  These types cause transit nod= es to insert SRH’s.  They are explicit in their statement that they can insert a second SRH in a packet that already = has an SRH.  This conflicts with RFC8200 section 4 which states that = extension headers, except for hop-hop-hop option headers, are not processed= , inserted or deleted by any node along a packet’s delivery path, until the packet reaches the node.

Further to this, sections 4.21.= 1 and 4.21.2, when referencing PSP and USP flavors of the END, END.X and EN= D.T functions all cause transit nodes to pop the top most SRH, which again,= conflicts with RFC8200 Section 4.

Further to this, section 5.2 an= d 5.3, which define the T.INSERT and T.INSERT.RED behaviors will cause tran= sit nodes to insert SRH’s – again – in conflict with RFC8= 200 Section 4.

 

Then, the following questions a= re things I would like to see addressed as concerns the uSID draft.

 

Firstly, I feel that this draft= again redefines the IPv6 address semantics in ways that are very far remov= ed from what is defined in RFC4291, and that is concerning.

Secondly, I do not understand h= ow draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid is compatible with the= network programming draft.  Due to the semantics of the addressing sp= ecified in the network programming draft, the moment you start shifting an address in the way this draft specifies, = you start to effectively break the locator/function semantics – and a= s such, programmability is only really possible at the end nodes.  Now= , the argument has been put forward that you can retain the full SID stack while still shifting the address in the uSID= approach – however, my question then becomes, if you do this to reta= in compatibility with the network programming draft, do you not lose any po= int in actually having uSID at all – since it was designed to address overhead, and the overhead has just returned ag= ain.

 

I really feel that these things= need to be addressed – because while I understand that there are thi= ngs which are mandatory, and things which are optional and in the spirit of= a draft,  and while I feel that if something isn’t specified as mandatory but is clearly in the spirit, there may= be occasions where something may be deviated from, what I see here is an e= ntire redefinition of the address semantics, and multiple conflicts with se= gments of RFC8200 – in a consistent and what I consider to be an egregious manner.

 

I look forward to hearing respo= nses

 

Thanks

 

Andrew

 

--_000_VE1PR03MB542290761D37661F112B9763EEB80VE1PR03MB5422eurp_-- From nobody Wed Sep 4 17:35:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB613120DC1; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28kGgL0YFwSb; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6031A120DB7; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CC0668562C; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 02:34:28 +0200 (CEST) To: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 03:34:09 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 00:34:41 -0000 On 4/9/19 09:58, Ole Troan wrote: > Fernando, > >>>> Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or >>>> leave the IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has >>>> had consensus that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be >>>> bad, wastefull, tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go >>>> through the whole publication process, and just rely on the AD to >>>> keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed. >>>> >>>> Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf >>>> and have the corresponding wg ship the document with something that >>>> clearly goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has >>>> declared that wouldn't let pass? >>> >>> In short, this is not the case. I am *not* the relevant AD for the >>> SRv6 Network Programming draft. If this document was in 6man I would >>> have flagged it much earlier like I did for the SRH draft. >> >> Sorry, what I meant by "relevant AD" is: "one of the responsible ADs for >> the spec that's being violated". >> >> i.e., isn't there in the IETF process -- whether formal or informal -- >> for this sort of thing to be flagged before documents get too far in the >> publication process? ("Hey, this document in your area is actually >> breaking a spec of one of my wgs" sort of thing...) > > I would prefer that we calmed down a bit on the protocol policing. Sorry, but this has nothing to do with protocol policing. It has to do with respecting the consensus this wg and the ietf as a whole had on the topic. i.e., that EHs must not be inserted in the network. We'd go into an interesting path to insanity if we publish specs, and subsequently publish conflicting specs that simply ignore previous ietf consensus. If folks want to do EH insertion, the #1 step is to publish a document that updates RFC8200 such that the "EHs must not be inserted..." is replaced with something else or eliminated. > We know that header insertion breaks unsuspecting source hosts if done by the network. > It breaks (at least) PMTUD, ICMP errors and AH. > > What we have said in the past is; explain how those issues are dealt with or do not apply to your proposal. That's what you and others may have said or thought. But the consensus is what's in the standard (RFC8200). And the standard says that EHs cannot be inserted in the network. If you want to do it, the first step is to update RFC8200. > And some form of "doing on behalf of" is not necessarily problematic. It is rightaway problematic specs-wise when it violates a crystal-clear requirement in RFC8200, that we arrived to after a very heated debate, and lots of enegery and time from all the involved people. The fact that after all the long story behind publication of rfc8200 as standard (and the ongoing srv6 document we're doing here, which was adopted on the condition that it wouldn't do eh-insertion), we can live with other wgs violating specs that we produced here with so much effort and time, is kind of amusing. If folks want to allow EH-insertion (i.e., formally allowing middleboxes to fiddle with packets), RFC8200 should be updated, and the work should be done in 6man. I don't think it's SPRING's call how the IPv6 protocol works. > It's the "blind" "Thou shalt not do" that I object to. As opposed to arguing on technical grounds. > > Ensuring interoperability is our purpose. Not protect 8200 as if it's a religious text. My #1 concern (not that I don't have others) is one related to fairness of the standardization process. I don't think we should simply rubberstamp anything a big vendor wants to sell, no matter how big the vendor is, or how much money may be involved. And if this working group (and the IETF as a whole) published a spec on which there was consensus, ignoring the spec and doing whatever one pleases is not the way to go. Firstly, make e the case for updating RFC8200. Then come up with the proposal to fiddle with packets in the network. P.S.: I've never been into the camp of protecting X (whether rfc8200 or any other document) as if it was religious text. Quite ironically, I have experienced such religious opposition in 6man itself (for instance, your argument of "don't fix slaac-renumbering because ipv6 has not been designed to support flash renumbering" seems pretty much a religious argument against work that would not result in any major modifications to any of the protocols involved -- as opposed to EH insertion). -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Sep 4 18:23:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33D1C1208E4; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 18:23:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KKUHexO8RYmg; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 18:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 380701208FA; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 18:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EAE30860CC; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 03:23:37 +0200 (CEST) To: Ron Bonica , Ole Troan , Fernando Gont Cc: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Suresh Krishnan , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 04:23:28 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 01:23:46 -0000 On 4/9/19 21:27, Ron Bonica wrote: > Ole, > > Yes, a deep breath and some introspection are always a good thing. > > First, I think that we need to make a distinction between the "spirit" and "letter" of the law. Next, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering practice. > > RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example, In an IPv6 header, the source address must precede the destination address. Any attempt to reverse those two would violate the letter of the law. > > By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests other things. For example, transit nodes should not insert or delete extension headers. I don't think it "suggests" this. It clearly forbids it. > In general, these suggestions should be heeded. But exemptions can be granted, on a case-by-case basis, An exception about this would be a major change regarding what IPv6 is and its operation. > For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use RFC 2119 language. So it is difficult to distinguish between the spirit and letter of the law. I think you can talk about spirit when there's room for interpretation, or the text is not clear. I don't think there's any of that in RFC8200 regarding EH insertion being forbidden. In fact, we added the text we added to make it clear that it was forbidden. > Beyond that, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering practice. I would like to contribute one: if one is to get into publishing specs, new specs should comply with the specs they depend on (i.e. the normative references). That means: 1) Don't violate other specs, or, 2) If you strongly feel like it, you first update the target spec, so that you behave nicely (you eventually comply with it). > If a technology violates the spirit of RFC 8200 once, with good reason, that is fine. I tend to differ here. If a technology is violating an aspect of a spec on which we spend a long time and energy, that's not fine. If we (IETF) do it, that would seem to be an indication of issues in the standardization process -- we publishing specs that not even us comply with doesn't seem to look nice. Doing this kind of major surgery (EH insertion) after elevating IPv6 to "Internet Standard" would bring another set of uncomfortable questions. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Sep 4 19:58:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA21120B9E; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 19:58:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wSBvBp--Tdkt; 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Thu, 5 Sep 2019 02:58:30 +0000 Received: from HK0PR03MB3970.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.152.250.58) by SG2APC01FT057.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.251.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.2241.14 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 02:58:30 +0000 Received: from HK0PR03MB3970.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::58ab:9421:d860:7c34]) by HK0PR03MB3970.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::58ab:9421:d860:7c34%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2241.014; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 02:58:30 +0000 From: li zhenqiang To: Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , Ole Troan , Fernando Gont CC: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , "spring@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) Thread-Index: AdVjS14TVsuRj78sSeu1r8rfsn3VOQ== Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 02:58:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: , <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: HK0PR01CA0016.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:1096:203:92::28) To HK0PR03MB3970.apcprd03.prod.outlook.com (2603:1096:203:97::17) x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:4C07C5997400AD8FD31EAECDFEB050A6DE820B326FCC84728CDFDB21206807D5; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I don't think we can infer from RFC 8200 that something is mandated and som= ething is strongly suggested. If guys with different interests can infer fr= om an "Internet Standard" what they are interested, the standard is ambiguo= us and deserves a bis. If the standard is clear, we MUST obey it, especially for the result after = intensive debates, do we need to repeat the discussion again? Best Regards, Zhenqiang Li ________________________________ li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com From: Fernando Gont Date: 2019-09-05 09:23 To: Ron Bonica; Ole Troan; Fernando Gont CC: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion; 6man@ietf.org; Sur= esh Krishnan; spring@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert = function) On 4/9/19 21:27, Ron Bonica wrote: > Ole, > > Yes, a deep breath and some introspection are always a good thing. > > First, I think that we need to make a distinction between the "spirit" an= d "letter" of the law. Next, we need to make a statement regarding good eng= ineering practice. > > RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example, In an IPv6 header, the source= address must precede the destination address. Any attempt to reverse those= two would violate the letter of the law. > > By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests other things. For example, transi= t nodes should not insert or delete extension headers. I don't think it "suggests" this. It clearly forbids it. > In general, these suggestions should be heeded. But exemptions can be gra= nted, on a case-by-case basis, An exception about this would be a major change regarding what IPv6 is and its operation. > For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use RFC 2119 language. So it is di= fficult to distinguish between the spirit and letter of the law. I think you can talk about spirit when there's room for interpretation, or the text is not clear. I don't think there's any of that in RFC8200 regarding EH insertion being forbidden. In fact, we added the text we added to make it clear that it was forbidden. > Beyond that, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering pract= ice. I would like to contribute one: if one is to get into publishing specs, new specs should comply with the specs they depend on (i.e. the normative references). That means: 1) Don't violate other specs, or, 2) If you strongly feel like it, you first update the target spec, so that you behave nicely (you eventually comply with it). > If a technology violates the spirit of RFC 8200 once, with good reason, t= hat is fine. I tend to differ here. If a technology is violating an aspect of a spec on which we spend a long time and energy, that's not fine. If we (IETF) do it, that would seem to be an indication of issues in the standardization process -- we publishing specs that not even us comply with doesn't seem to look nice. Doing this kind of major surgery (EH insertion) after elevating IPv6 to "Internet Standard" would bring another set of uncomfortable questions. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_HK0PR03MB3970EB9B1326CDD4609A6CB4FCBB0HK0PR03MB3970apcp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <270F541C55B69F46855891F4CD701B1C@apcprd03.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,

I don't think we can infer from RFC 8200 that something i= s mandated and something is strongly suggested. If guys with different inte= rests can infer from an "Internet Standard" what they are interested, the standard is ambiguous and des= erves a bis.

If the standard is clear, we MUST obey it, especially for the result a= fter intensive debates, do we need to repeat the discussion again?

Best Regards,
Zhenqiang Li
li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
 
Date: 2019-09-05 09:23
Subject: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question a= bout SRv6 Insert function)
On 4/9/19 21:27, Ron Bonica wrote:
> Ole,
>
> Yes, a deep breath and some introspection are always a good thing= .
>
> First, I think that we need to make a distinction between the &qu= ot;spirit" and "letter" of the law. Next, we need to make a = statement regarding good engineering practice.
>
> RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example, In an IPv6 header, th= e source address must precede the destination address. Any attempt to rever= se those two would violate the letter of the law.
>
> By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests other things. For example= , transit nodes should not insert or delete extension headers.
 
I don't think it "suggests" this. It clearly forbids it.
 
 
 
> In general, these suggestions should be heeded. But exemptions ca= n be granted, on a case-by-case basis,
 
An exception about this would be a major change regarding what IPv6 is=
and its operation.
 
 
 
> For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use RFC 2119 language. So = it is difficult to distinguish between the spirit and letter of the law.
 
I think you can talk about spirit when there's room for interpretation= ,
or the text is not clear.
 
I don't think there's any of that in RFC8200 regarding EH insertion
being forbidden.
 
In fact, we added the text we added to make it clear that it was forbi= dden.
 
 
 
> Beyond that, we need to make a statement regarding good engineeri= ng practice.
 
I would like to contribute one: if one is to get into publishing specs= ,
new specs should comply with the specs they depend on (i.e. the
normative references). That means:
 
1) Don't violate other specs, or,
2) If you strongly feel like it, you first update the target spec, so<= /div>
that you behave nicely (you eventually comply with it).
 
 
 
> If a technology violates the spirit of RFC 8200 once, with good r= eason, that is fine.
 
I tend to differ here. If a technology is violating an aspect of a spe= c
on which we spend a long time and energy, that's not fine.
 
If we (IETF) do it, that would seem to be an indication of issues in t= he
standardization process -- we publishing specs that not even us comply=
with doesn't seem to look nice.
 
 
Doing this kind of major surgery (EH insertion) after elevating IPv6 t= o
"Internet Standard" would bring another set of uncomfortable= questions.
 
Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492
 
 
 
 
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PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ZdalPKMNnp+YToSbXWTdjjHC33NZ64W2TkR9MFQb0NQSHQwdUveZIZI5jmRfFibbsivW5FprCVg78mRSsWSHkUSGOGRH0CEySz0PZmkFLyAlkPtg0S4wHxamqNBeNKyS1G6a94iJRMGJWkoxUn9kKmGI6nRwflhT3uTfqOyVFytBp2Xt0JdTBVobdprTsIyib8wgjv+S0PpRmwq9qRXeKVqAOUZkH6lWJeLu/+XBM5Sx1BIbkPhEIjirYJnWlBPvNB8QPv1bxEXEStDL6oHGgFIRwnFY8aXnZUuYL2JYgQG0SMxwfMhDYbF2kZICLBzswfoXjsX3EuUO61txb9IVt5fKFWS+CiGpvujc+XcaG8zR60bYTYwuGLGz2wKHKEtGZHuiTH1CoGDiUarDN/pIbm2u+k7q6f9VFXt1tmuGTkI= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BL0PR05MB54580DA411A332701090B5A6AEBB0BL0PR05MB5458namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f5eec714-390f-4440-e2ec-08d731ad5337 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Sep 2019 03:01:19.0040 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: xzlyGRCqTphYsEJ6fYF/Az7AVw0ryyWLWkWCMkjhpGoNAevkxA6TPjIyz8QjN1JZw7ILERWHzZ5oIDrIeYfLHw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR05MB5249 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-05_01:2019-09-04,2019-09-05 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909050032 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 03:01:35 -0000 --_000_BL0PR05MB54580DA411A332701090B5A6AEBB0BL0PR05MB5458namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fernando, Zhenqiang, You both have valid points. Maybe I am becoming too tolerant of deviations = from the specification. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: li zhenqiang Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 10:59 PM To: Fernando Gont ; Ron Bonica = ; Ole Troan ; Fernando Gont Cc: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion ; 6man@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan ; spring@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <= draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org> Subject: Re: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Ins= ert function) Hello all, I don't think we can infer from RFC 8200 that something is mandated and som= ething is strongly suggested. If guys with different interests can infer fr= om an "Internet Standard" what they are interested, the standard is ambiguo= us and deserves a bis. If the standard is clear, we MUST obey it, especially for the result after = intensive debates, do we need to repeat the discussion again? Best Regards, Zhenqiang Li ________________________________ li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com From: Fernando Gont Date: 2019-09-05 09:23 To: Ron Bonica; Ole Troan; Fernando Gont CC: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion; 6man@ietf.org; Sur= esh Krishnan; spring@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert = function) On 4/9/19 21:27, Ron Bonica wrote: > Ole, > > Yes, a deep breath and some introspection are always a good thing.. > > First, I think that we need to make a distinction between the "spirit" an= d "letter" of the law. Next, we need to make a statement regarding good eng= ineering practice. > > RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example, In an IPv6 header, the source= address must precede the destination address. Any attempt to reverse those= two would violate the letter of the law. > > By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests other things. For example, transi= t nodes should not insert or delete extension headers. I don't think it "suggests" this. It clearly forbids it. > In general, these suggestions should be heeded. But exemptions can be gra= nted, on a case-by-case basis, An exception about this would be a major change regarding what IPv6 is and its operation. > For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use RFC 2119 language. So it is di= fficult to distinguish between the spirit and letter of the law. I think you can talk about spirit when there's room for interpretation, or the text is not clear. I don't think there's any of that in RFC8200 regarding EH insertion being forbidden. In fact, we added the text we added to make it clear that it was forbidden. > Beyond that, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering pract= ice. I would like to contribute one: if one is to get into publishing specs, new specs should comply with the specs they depend on (i.e. the normative references). That means: 1) Don't violate other specs, or, 2) If you strongly feel like it, you first update the target spec, so that you behave nicely (you eventually comply with it). > If a technology violates the spirit of RFC 8200 once, with good reason, t= hat is fine. I tend to differ here. If a technology is violating an aspect of a spec on which we spend a long time and energy, that's not fine. If we (IETF) do it, that would seem to be an indication of issues in the standardization process -- we publishing specs that not even us comply with doesn't seem to look nice. Doing this kind of major surgery (EH insertion) after elevating IPv6 to "Internet Standard" would bring another set of uncomfortable questions. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_BL0PR05MB54580DA411A332701090B5A6AEBB0BL0PR05MB5458namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fernando, Zhenqiang,

 

You both have valid points. Maybe I am becoming too = tolerant of deviations from the specification.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           Ron<= /o:p>

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: li zhenqiang <li_zhenqiang@hotmail.c= om>
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 10:59 PM
To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>; Ron Bonica <rbon= ica@juniper.net>; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>; Fernando Gont = <fernando@gont.com.ar>
Cc: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion <draft-voyer-6man= -extension-header-insertion@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan &l= t;suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>; spring@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-ne= twork-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org&g= t;
Subject: Re: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about S= Rv6 Insert function)

 

Hello all,

 

I don't think we can infer from RFC 8200 that s= omething is mandated and something is strongly suggested. If guys with diff= erent interests can infer from an "Internet Standard" what they are interested, the standard is ambiguous and deserves a bis.

 

If the standard is clear, we MUST obey it, espe= cially for the result after intensive debates, do we need to repeat the dis= cussion again?

 

Best Regards,

Zhenqiang Li

 

From: Fernando Gont

Date: 2019-09-05 09:23

Subject:<= /span> Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)

On 4/9/19 21:27, Ron Bonica wrote:

> Ole,

>

> Yes, a deep breath and some introspection = are always a good thing..

>

> First, I think that we need to make a dist= inction between the "spirit" and "letter" of the law. N= ext, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering practice.<= /o:p>

>

> RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example= , In an IPv6 header, the source address must precede the destination addres= s. Any attempt to reverse those two would violate the letter of the law.

>

> By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests ot= her things. For example, transit nodes should not insert or delete extensio= n headers.

 

I don't think it "suggests" this. It = clearly forbids it.

 

 

 

> In general, these suggestions should be he= eded. But exemptions can be granted, on a case-by-case basis,

 

An exception about this would be a major change= regarding what IPv6 is

and its operation.

 

 

 

> For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use= RFC 2119 language. So it is difficult to distinguish between the spirit an= d letter of the law.

 

I think you can talk about spirit when there's = room for interpretation,

or the text is not clear.

 

I don't think there's any of that in RFC8200 re= garding EH insertion

being forbidden.

 

In fact, we added the text we added to make it = clear that it was forbidden.

 

 

 

> Beyond that, we need to make a statement r= egarding good engineering practice.

 

I would like to contribute one: if one is to ge= t into publishing specs,

new specs should comply with the specs they dep= end on (i.e. the

normative references). That means:

 

1) Don't violate other specs, or,

2) If you strongly feel like it, you first upda= te the target spec, so

that you behave nicely (you eventually comply w= ith it).

 

 

 

> If a technology violates the spirit of RFC= 8200 once, with good reason, that is fine.

 

I tend to differ here. If a technology is viola= ting an aspect of a spec

on which we spend a long time and energy, that'= s not fine.

 

If we (IETF) do it, that would seem to be an in= dication of issues in the

standardization process -- we publishing specs = that not even us comply

with doesn't seem to look nice.

 

 

Doing this kind of major surgery (EH insertion)= after elevating IPv6 to

"Internet Standard" would bring anoth= er set of uncomfortable questions.

 

Thanks,

--

Fernando Gont

SI6 Networks

PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 = AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492

 

 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------

IETF IPv6 working group mailing list=

-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------

--_000_BL0PR05MB54580DA411A332701090B5A6AEBB0BL0PR05MB5458namp_-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 01:18:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EBA6120058; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4_nU0hqMKBBa; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6B65120045; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (unknown [IPv6:2a01:79c:cebd:c078:bc56:dd51:6a5d:33a8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8C7304E12909; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:18:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860B81B8F83E; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 10:18:50 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 10:18:50 +0200 Cc: Fernando Gont , Suresh Krishnan , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> References: To: Ron Bonica X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 08:18:56 -0000 Dear Ron, The IETF is not writing de jure standards. In fact reality is quite different, and the Internet evolves the way it = does somewhat independently of what documents the IETF produces. In fact I know of no networking products (or deployments) that follow = the intent and spirit of RFC8200. I challenge to point me to one! ;-) Let me quote Tony Li's response to Fernando's escalation email to the = architecture list: "The fact of the matter is that the IETF is completely helpless to = prevent such things.=20 True, it can block standardization, but if the market wants it, the = market will drive it and all that the IETF does is to make itself irrelevant to the process." My suggestion to Fernando was to argue the issues on technical merit. Can you please explain why you don't do that? - Does it break end to end transparency? - Can end host protect their traffic with encryption or do the proposed = mechanisms break that? - How is PMTUD, ICMP errors, AH being handled? - Does it break intereroperability? Best regards, Ole > On 4 Sep 2019, at 20:27, Ron Bonica wrote: >=20 > Ole, >=20 > Yes, a deep breath and some introspection are always a good thing. >=20 > First, I think that we need to make a distinction between the "spirit" = and "letter" of the law. Next, we need to make a statement regarding = good engineering practice. >=20 > RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example, In an IPv6 header, the = source address must precede the destination address. Any attempt to = reverse those two would violate the letter of the law. >=20 > By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests other things. For example, = transit nodes should not insert or delete extension headers. In general, = these suggestions should be heeded. But exemptions can be granted, on a = case-by-case basis, given that the motivation is strong, the risk is = minimal, and there are no viable alternatives. >=20 > For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use RFC 2119 language. So it is = difficult to distinguish between the spirit and letter of the law. I = think that is the genesis of the current debate. >=20 > Beyond that, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering = practice. If a technology violates the spirit of RFC 8200 once, with = good reason, that is fine. If it violates the spirit of RFC 8200 twice, = we should all start asking questions. If it violates the spirit of RFC = 8200 three times, and promises to do so again in the future, we should = start to question whether that technology is building on RFC 8200 or = trying to redefine it. > = Ron >=20 >=20 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ole Troan =20 > Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 2:58 AM > To: Fernando Gont > Cc: Suresh Krishnan ; Ron Bonica = ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; = draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion = ; = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming = > Subject: Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function >=20 > [ snip ] > I would prefer that we calmed down a bit on the protocol policing. >=20 > [ snip ] From nobody Thu Sep 5 01:23:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBE4C120B9A; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:23:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JxKBRd2q23eQ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 326DD120058; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:23:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (unknown [IPv6:2a01:79c:cebd:c078:bc56:dd51:6a5d:33a8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AF8D64E11A43; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:23:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2CF41B8F99A; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 10:23:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 10:23:07 +0200 Cc: Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1D971011-4B42-44F8-8BE0-5162DC1A3611@employees.org> References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 08:23:12 -0000 Fernando, See my email to Ron. Just a short point with regards to your claim: "If you want to do it, the first step is to update RFC8200". Let's be clear that this is your own personal view and nothing more than = that. Best regards, Ole > On 5 Sep 2019, at 02:34, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 > On 4/9/19 09:58, Ole Troan wrote: >> Fernando, >>=20 >>>>> Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or >>>>> leave the IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF = has >>>>> had consensus that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would = be >>>>> bad, wastefull, tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go >>>>> through the whole publication process, and just rely on the AD to >>>>> keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf >>>>> and have the corresponding wg ship the document with something = that >>>>> clearly goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has >>>>> declared that wouldn't let pass? >>>>=20 >>>> In short, this is not the case. I am *not* the relevant AD for the >>>> SRv6 Network Programming draft. If this document was in 6man I = would >>>> have flagged it much earlier like I did for the SRH draft. >>>=20 >>> Sorry, what I meant by "relevant AD" is: "one of the responsible ADs = for >>> the spec that's being violated". >>>=20 >>> i.e., isn't there in the IETF process -- whether formal or informal = -- >>> for this sort of thing to be flagged before documents get too far in = the >>> publication process? ("Hey, this document in your area is actually >>> breaking a spec of one of my wgs" sort of thing...) >>=20 >> I would prefer that we calmed down a bit on the protocol policing. >=20 > Sorry, but this has nothing to do with protocol policing. It has to do > with respecting the consensus this wg and the ietf as a whole had on = the > topic. i.e., that EHs must not be inserted in the network. >=20 > We'd go into an interesting path to insanity if we publish specs, and > subsequently publish conflicting specs that simply ignore previous = ietf > consensus. >=20 > If folks want to do EH insertion, the #1 step is to publish a document > that updates RFC8200 such that the "EHs must not be inserted..." is > replaced with something else or eliminated. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> We know that header insertion breaks unsuspecting source hosts if = done by the network. >> It breaks (at least) PMTUD, ICMP errors and AH. >>=20 >> What we have said in the past is; explain how those issues are dealt = with or do not apply to your proposal. >=20 > That's what you and others may have said or thought. But the consensus > is what's in the standard (RFC8200). And the standard says that EHs > cannot be inserted in the network. If you want to do it, the first = step > is to update RFC8200. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> And some form of "doing on behalf of" is not necessarily problematic. >=20 > It is rightaway problematic specs-wise when it violates a = crystal-clear > requirement in RFC8200, that we arrived to after a very heated debate, > and lots of enegery and time from all the involved people. >=20 > The fact that after all the long story behind publication of rfc8200 = as > standard (and the ongoing srv6 document we're doing here, which was > adopted on the condition that it wouldn't do eh-insertion), we can = live > with other wgs violating specs that we produced here with so much = effort > and time, is kind of amusing. >=20 > If folks want to allow EH-insertion (i.e., formally allowing = middleboxes > to fiddle with packets), RFC8200 should be updated, and the work = should > be done in 6man. >=20 > I don't think it's SPRING's call how the IPv6 protocol works. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> It's the "blind" "Thou shalt not do" that I object to. As opposed to = arguing on technical grounds. >>=20 >> Ensuring interoperability is our purpose. Not protect 8200 as if it's = a religious text. >=20 > My #1 concern (not that I don't have others) is one related to = fairness > of the standardization process. I don't think we should simply > rubberstamp anything a big vendor wants to sell, no matter how big the > vendor is, or how much money may be involved. >=20 > And if this working group (and the IETF as a whole) published a spec = on > which there was consensus, ignoring the spec and doing whatever one > pleases is not the way to go. Firstly, make e the case for updating > RFC8200. Then come up with the proposal to fiddle with packets in the > network. >=20 > P.S.: I've never been into the camp of protecting X (whether rfc8200 = or > any other document) as if it was religious text. Quite ironically, I > have experienced such religious opposition in 6man itself (for = instance, > your argument of "don't fix slaac-renumbering because ipv6 has not = been > designed to support flash renumbering" seems pretty much a religious > argument against work that would not result in any major modifications > to any of the protocols involved -- as opposed to EH insertion). >=20 > --=20 > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 01:29:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790521200B7 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:29:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FoISaXNrqFTJ for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-f177.google.com (mail-qk1-f177.google.com [209.85.222.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5772A120045 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 01:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-f177.google.com with SMTP id s14so1320759qkm.4 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 01:29:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IZkS1/jmHqxgeITDVdVSjkK0cfXfvHAJfc7xY/QFW+k=; b=f6veAIgOXXoKZV1dy0cuuJ+wM+9oppXQyMoOmn7Pv/2nA2btFDKZwT+jog2FszU6kw N77DHyALsbpfPUhMuUvKPU/zQHeI9dng0r83xVWlABtXXM2JpZUieWvmIRBOvNXvdTIO gMan6dFdcS9RO49/Fo1i5Zzk91z2ei6Hz4wTOOOtw31Lc2ApDlgEo6w+CTe6qyuORgTe YnQfVfRuTbpKcGatHQbMI3nZ4JifCDDeq80McwcWpj7SrAIPOu1JSOds5IIK3lO/JQ5x Asf3S38yyA2IF/CYpevm/wj2Rum0jjyqNxRZULR9sKtY9x+j5eRhgcLJQ7DqiuLB2oxT 6VIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IZkS1/jmHqxgeITDVdVSjkK0cfXfvHAJfc7xY/QFW+k=; b=jP5dFuLcBrIK3rAKcg2dbBdXMq1eQTchbZCF7rrLCmBw9SP4TL3ujqVqDUVRIdhjq2 GkO0x06GbLHGL/2LZdjZTEqci2/Z/EwBq8RWtr4qIiO2rhPwHoqb7wZ15bQUUQagbsQn sO6zxivbO/SoMRl3ZSHfVGbpjEVb9LaSvhFSxdYUg2D1yIotulf9KNWG+kRAeEsEp4tc KQ7/uOz3Lrqb7ae+N/ioNJmBwgXq5B+PMpSCm1dvLQszLrqbJZEIsDLOgv7o2CgFOd9j rQnK9xUCQvkRzDhBKW4ap8S9J5VJEuPBSj1QUyPV2Er+fsOQk73G+FmsUv2APNgimYXp kTRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWdOTEZGpHf2vqXHtrw7IaMZWk4ISIGZ1GssMIhDVuAD7uExCya A64+F2wR/3p9gyxqMMUcr4HMadAQJBIl/zAXJpDBqg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz9a1KyIfMso8ClqU8dmkIA/nyQK8ATcEguyQIg04B7nLGmQxyTGy3QPtJ10XXTLS2XuZ/x6GvbHWFX0D5xJ1A= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a7c5:: with SMTP id q188mr6090qke.445.1567672139214; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 01:28:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 10:28:48 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: Ole Troan , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb857c0591ca1cd9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 08:29:01 -0000 --000000000000fb857c0591ca1cd9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Fernando, > If folks want to do EH insertion, the #1 step is to publish a document > that updates RFC8200 such that the "EHs must not be inserted..." is > replaced with something else or eliminated. I have very basic question to close this debate. Is IP encapsulation of the packet allowed by IPv6 specs or not ? If it is I see no issue with any documents you quote since when I add a new IPv6 header I can add any field to it. Moreover when I see myself as destination address of the packet RFC8200 verbatim allows to add, delete or modify EHs. I hope you agree with it. If IP encapsulation is forbidden by IPv6 RFCs please provide a quote and ref. Many thx, R. --000000000000fb857c0591ca1cd9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Fernando,
=C2= =A0
If folks want to= do EH insertion, the #1 step is to publish a document
that updates RFC8200 such that the "EHs must not be inserted..." = is
replaced with something else or eliminated.

I have very basic question to close this debate.=C2=A0

Is IP encapsulation of the packet allowed by IPv6 specs or not ?=C2= =A0=C2=A0

If it is I see no issue with any documen= ts you quote since when I add a new IPv6 header I can add any field to it. = Moreover when I see myself as destination address of the packet RFC8200 ver= batim allows to add, delete or modify EHs. I hope you agree with it.=C2=A0<= /div>

If IP encapsulation is forbidden by IPv6 RFCs plea= se provide a quote and ref.=C2=A0

Many thx,
<= div>R.=C2=A0
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In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:06:33 +0200 Message-ID: To: Alexander Vainshtein Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000feed0a0591caa348" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 09:06:48 -0000 --000000000000feed0a0591caa348 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *Dear Alexander, * On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 10:38 AM Alexander Vainshtein < Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote: > Robert, > > I fully agree with you that RFC 8200 does not prevent a node that owns th= e > destination address of the IPv6 header to insert EH. > Great - Are we done with this "EH insertion" debate now ? :) > However, RFCV 8200 recommends (?) not to have more than one EH header of > any type (excluding the Destination Options header that can occur no more > than twice > =E2=80=93 once before the Routing header and once again =E2=80=93 before th= e upper layer > header). I.e., two Routing Headers (of any type) in the same packet are, = if > not prohibited, then, at least, not recommended. > SRH is TLV based could be as long as needed. However sometimes it could be useful from processing pov to decouple some functions to be placed in separate SRHs for example to clearly filter/boost processing just by looking at the flags field. But it is just optimization. Sure one could ask for new type (or bunch of types) if this makes any technical merit. Btw since you point out that Destination Options also only allow to be present twice we have the same problem there. *Dear Zhenqiang, * Would you recommend to define new type of EH for FRR protection ? Say PRH (Protection Routing Header) extension header with type say 5 ? Does it make really sense to define a new type just from bureaucracy pov for each possible application - even if all functionality would still be identical if we would have the same type 4 carry the data ? Does it make any sense to do that from hardware processing point of view - to modify it to recognize bunch of types and still do exact same processing on them ? Cheers, R. --000000000000feed0a0591caa348 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Alexander,=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 10= :38 AM Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com> wrote:

Robert,

I fully agree with you that RFC 8200 does no= t prevent a node that owns the destination address of the IPv6 header to in= sert EH.


Great - Are= we done with this "EH insertion" debate now ? :)
=C2= =A0

However, RFCV 8200 recommends (?) not to hav= e more than one EH header of any type (excluding the Destination Options he= ader that can occur no more than twice

=E2=80=93 once before the Routin= g header and once again =E2=80=93 before the upper layer header). I.e., two= Routing Headers (of any type) in the same packet are, if not prohibited, t= hen, at least, not recommended.

SRH is TLV based could be as long as needed.=C2=A0
However sometimes it could be useful from processing pov to de= couple some functions to be placed in separate SRHs for example to clearly = filter/boost processing just by looking at the flags field. But it is just = optimization.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Sure one could ask for n= ew type (or bunch of types) if this makes any technical merit.=C2=A0
<= div>
Btw since you point out that Destination Options also on= ly allow to be present twice we have the same problem there.=C2=A0

Dear=C2=A0Zhenqiang,= =C2=A0

<= /div>
Would you recommend to define = new type of EH for FRR protection ? Say PRH (Protection Routing Header) ext= ension header with type say 5 ?=C2=A0

Does it make r= eally sense to define a new type just from bureaucracy=C2=A0pov for each po= ssible application - even if all functionality would still be identical if = we would have the same type 4 carry the data ? Does it make any sense to do= that from hardware processing point of view - to modify it to recognize bu= nch of types and still do exact same processing on them ?=C2=A0

Cheers,
R.
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SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S5vhnWf7VvbJ for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 02:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97CCE120105 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 02:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id u40so1961611qth.11 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 02:35:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nI9MHlrvXbtupq+LiSU7kXoL9bPAH61BzMYA79PQGtU=; 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APjAAAWnX7NmhfkhYExDizli/ui/2VGHz1AMZ9GElgVOJ5qSsKg1dTYw WY1N2ZstRo3+cbIUDW4N8h2DZjdirDXbP6vbI491YA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyeWJgNUsIb5lhTC/4g8Xdl/aNwzdfSiJqlKuvwCBLLZRP1LmB3qJjiecEEKWMx0hqoAl3uxNqAt/qS2Sj5jEU= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9082:: with SMTP id p2mr1055275qvp.197.1567676156370; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 02:35:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:35:45 +0200 Message-ID: To: li zhenqiang Cc: Alexander Vainshtein , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Suresh Krishnan , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c7a5e0591cb0cfc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 09:36:00 -0000 --0000000000006c7a5e0591cb0cfc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Ok but this extra insertion is just one of possible SR applications and has no bearing on SRv6 architecture and all other SRv6 documents running via various stages of IETF process like number of folks are voicing on the list just to mud the waters. There is valid problem statement presented in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-06 and if approved and processed via IETF it will update RFC8200. If IETF decides that FRR is not needed for IPv6 packets that is fine. If WG decides that this use case is valid but for IPv6 purity requires new EH type I guess authors will take that feedback and discuss internally. Cheers Robert. On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 11:22 AM li zhenqiang wrote: > Dear Robert, > > Yes, SRH is TLV based. But the two documents want to insert one more SRH > in a packet, not more segments in one SRH. > > I recommend nothing. Just post the question. > > Best Regards, > Zhenqiang Li > > --0000000000006c7a5e0591cb0cfc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Ok but this extra insert= ion is just one of possible SR applications and has no bearing on SRv6 arch= itecture and all other SRv6 documents running via various stages of IETF pr= ocess like number of folks are voicing on the list just to mud the waters.= =C2=A0

There is valid problem statement presented = in=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-= header-insertion-06=C2=A0and if approved and processed via IETF it will= update RFC8200.=C2=A0

If IETF decides that FRR is= not needed for IPv6 packets that is fine. If WG decides that this use case= is valid but for IPv6 purity requires new EH type I guess authors will tak= e that feedback and discuss internally.=C2=A0

Chee= rs
Robert.


On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 11:22 = AM li zhenqiang <li_zhenqian= g@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Robert,

Yes, SRH is TLV based. But the two documents want to insert one more S= RH in a packet, not more segments in one SRH.

I recommend nothing. Just post the question.

Best Regards,
Zhenqiang Li
--0000000000006c7a5e0591cb0cfc-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 05:04:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 924E11200E9; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:04:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gl2PiS5a3MIx; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AF6912003F; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:04:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E13B861C8; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:04:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Ole Troan , Ron Bonica Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:59:07 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:04:36 -0000 On 5/9/19 11:18, Ole Troan wrote: > Dear Ron, > > The IETF is not writing de jure standards. > In fact reality is quite different, and the Internet evolves the way it does somewhat independently of what documents the IETF produces. > In fact I know of no networking products (or deployments) that follow the intent and spirit of RFC8200. I challenge to point me to one! ;-) How did we elevate IPv6 to Internet Standard, then? On the shepherd write up for rfc2460bis, you argued essentially the opposite to what you're arguing now: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis/shepherdwriteup/ Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 05:05:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44A3E1200EC; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MlDX28QdBKUe; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20BBE120059; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A8239861D4; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:04:31 +0200 (CEST) To: Ole Troan Cc: Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , rtg-ads@ietf.org References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <18D85493-5FD4-4D26-B1A1-0931513DC847@gmail.com> <05b6474b-ecc2-fbf9-ac5e-d81157be8b90@gont.com.ar> <537C92D5-7355-45B5-8974-C74ED08B0E0F@employees.org> <1D971011-4B42-44F8-8BE0-5162DC1A3611@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <7fe15d0b-df81-cd26-d6a6-19eaac202ec8@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:04:03 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1D971011-4B42-44F8-8BE0-5162DC1A3611@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:04:37 -0000 On 5/9/19 11:23, Ole Troan wrote: > Fernando, > > See my email to Ron. > > Just a short point with regards to your claim: > "If you want to do it, the first step is to update RFC8200". > > Let's be clear that this is your own personal view and nothing more than that. I have a few questions for you as 6man wg co-chair: 1) Can a specification (such as some being pursued in spring) violate a standard (RFC8200) at will, without formally updating it? 2) Is it within spring's charter to specify behaviors that result in an outright violation of specifications it does not "control"? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 05:13:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC22E12011D; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:13:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F0EXI7s89tLc; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:13:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5C6A120288; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 793AA861CC; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:13:06 +0200 (CEST) To: Ole Troan , Ron Bonica Cc: Suresh Krishnan , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <8731b9ff-6224-eb86-6bf0-6251e6e30658@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:12:59 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:13:22 -0000 On 5/9/19 11:18, Ole Troan wrote: [...] > > Let me quote Tony Li's response to Fernando's escalation email to the architecture list: > > "The fact of the matter is that the IETF is completely helpless to prevent such things. > True, it can block standardization, but if the market wants it, the market will drive it > and all that the IETF does is to make itself irrelevant to the process." Even doing SRv6 does not need to imply doing EH insertion. For instance, I just re-read draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion, and there's no comment whatsoever why they don't address the same issues with encapsulation. > My suggestion to Fernando was to argue the issues on technical merit. The ietf consensus on this topic resulted from technical merit. I don't think it's productive or even fair to simply ignore such discussions and consensus, and ignore standards at will. If you don't like the standard, make your case why you think it should be updated, and work on it. The onus is on you to change the standard, not on the standard to remain "as is". > Can you please explain why you don't do that? > > - Does it break end to end transparency? Is IPv6 an end-to-end protocol if you allow EH-insertion in the middle of a network? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Thu Sep 5 06:05:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1EF1201A3; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:05:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F2DOpuFSON4E; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DA9D120116; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (unknown [IPv6:2a01:79c:cebd:c078:cd83:4de4:5c30:b1b7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F4B34E11AF5; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:05:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BAF1B9701F; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:05:14 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:05:14 +0200 Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 13:05:25 -0000 Fernando, >> The IETF is not writing de jure standards. >> In fact reality is quite different, and the Internet evolves the way = it does somewhat independently of what documents the IETF produces. >> In fact I know of no networking products (or deployments) that follow = the intent and spirit of RFC8200. I challenge to point me to one! ;-) >=20 > How did we elevate IPv6 to Internet Standard, then? On the shepherd > write up for rfc2460bis, you argued essentially the opposite to what > you're arguing now: > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis/shepherdwriteu= p/ I have not changed my position with regards to header insertion. I'm arguing that you should argue technical merit on actual proposals. Instead of trying to make RFC documents apply as laws and slap people = over the head with those... Cheers, Ole From nobody Thu Sep 5 06:12:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956D112006A; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:11:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pmfer884ZvlY; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C47E120026; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46PLgY0qKYzKnLx; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:11:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1567689113; bh=rr9WbfFERcfEtHG47B/XK8c1rHU1mUvOoyYxRgzYVoU=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ClHqEXPw06zUSqiHyFcoI6du+jw8nPHJPpZyGAV+4Co7NwhLyn/lc3U+Cmes320Nb WXtInW1hDZkO783jIuXolZ0gOUYNqguowGL8HbuG/jkmo8XS432LIIS+HFOLv0JWN0 Oh2XeYIn7n0XRPPD+nO9ng/E3P516P9cWxQVj9aA= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.51.246] (unknown [217.171.42.130]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46PLgW3CV5z1XLkX; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:11:51 -0700 (PDT) To: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:11:50 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 13:11:55 -0000 Part of the reason we write restrictions and requirements into RFCs is so that we do not have to repeat the arguments. If the proponents of the insertion have arguments for why it is now okay, they need to make those arguments. And they need to make sure that the discussion is taken to the relevant working groups. The burden should not be on those who are asking that attention be paid to existing RFCs. Yours, Joel On 9/5/2019 9:05 AM, Ole Troan wrote: > Fernando, > >>> The IETF is not writing de jure standards. >>> In fact reality is quite different, and the Internet evolves the way it does somewhat independently of what documents the IETF produces. >>> In fact I know of no networking products (or deployments) that follow the intent and spirit of RFC8200. I challenge to point me to one! ;-) >> >> How did we elevate IPv6 to Internet Standard, then? On the shepherd >> write up for rfc2460bis, you argued essentially the opposite to what >> you're arguing now: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis/shepherdwriteup/ > > I have not changed my position with regards to header insertion. > I'm arguing that you should argue technical merit on actual proposals. > Instead of trying to make RFC documents apply as laws and slap people over the head with those... > > Cheers, > Ole > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > From nobody Thu Sep 5 06:20:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D903D120091; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:20:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C17PlsDUDxSX; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDFE012006A; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 74A8A86230; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:20:39 +0200 (CEST) To: Ole Troan Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <00707049-efb9-5c1a-5f1d-6d609e1154dd@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:19:44 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 13:20:44 -0000 On 5/9/19 16:05, Ole Troan wrote: > Fernando, > >>> The IETF is not writing de jure standards. >>> In fact reality is quite different, and the Internet evolves the way it does somewhat independently of what documents the IETF produces. >>> In fact I know of no networking products (or deployments) that follow the intent and spirit of RFC8200. I challenge to point me to one! ;-) >> >> How did we elevate IPv6 to Internet Standard, then? On the shepherd >> write up for rfc2460bis, you argued essentially the opposite to what >> you're arguing now: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis/shepherdwriteup/ > > I have not changed my position with regards to header insertion. You seem to argue that following the spec closely doesn't matter, because nobody does. I which case I wonder how we got to elevate IPv6 to internet standard. > I'm arguing that you should argue technical merit on actual proposals. > Instead of trying to make RFC documents apply as laws and slap people over the head with those... I think this is a misrepresentation of what's going on. The only thing that I am asking is that the corresponding procedure is followed, as opposed to circumvented. If IPv6 should allow header insertion, and there is a very good rationale for that, so be it. But the procedure should be to have such discussion, for folks to elaborate why they dont't do encap/decap instead, and, if there is a good rationale, update the IPv6 spec as appropriate. *Then*, and only then, publish documents that assume you can fiddle with packets in the network. What we have now is folks ignoring RFC8200, and violating its requirements at will -- something that I don't think is the right way to go, and certainly is not fair with all the folks that put energy in the discussions that led to RFC8200. The above procedure is what mere mortals like myself have followed in 6man to produce protocol improvements. -- unfortunately, at times we have not been that lucky, and did get slapped with RFCs or "IPv6 has not been designed to support that".. no matter the technical merits. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 06:35:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86287120091; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:34:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pzZPSQx0yOqg; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C245D120026; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6717B4E11B0A; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:34:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2291B97D5A; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:34:49 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:34:49 +0200 Cc: Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 13:34:57 -0000 Joel, > Part of the reason we write restrictions and requirements into RFCs is = so that we do not have to repeat the arguments. >=20 > If the proponents of the insertion have arguments for why it is now = okay, they need to make those arguments. And they need to make sure = that the discussion is taken to the relevant working groups. The burden = should not be on those who are asking that attention be paid to existing = RFCs. As far as I know, but I'm trying to stay away from the actual proposals = and argue this generally, no-one is proposing to update the RFC8200 = header insertion text. What people are proposing are for specific domains. And given that, I = believe people need to argue the technical merits of those specific = proposals. As opposed to throwing the "law book" around. Best regards, Ole From nobody Thu Sep 5 06:36:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590171200E7; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:36:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tmciHazttYhT; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2614120091; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3AE4C; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:36:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1567690578; bh=1xNd3+1M/anMtMS6IpN NusCpmPJ3QWcuKAmLaht62to=; b=Ycg66jzuawVRTxqk3YUGKyel5WuUAp/6xh2 PQRV1F4w/4SQf6iOo8nrGjabGUDduCpAfDfmK0gREFUYeWVv4WgSuDttf/YHkIPP csHlBjeE45eRCAFjjoMFS1XF4S4jCeVUUGqe+Qm0nBE3dw8h/YMfe94bQrtc8RHB kPM76qwc= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id cYM2iNEl-dlB; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:36:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:9e0:4:12:d946:abc3:9d40:b42d] (unknown [IPv6:2001:9e0:4:12:d946:abc3:9d40:b42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9CCA54B; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:36:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <94C728D1-8A58-4B85-A2BB-509231CC7343@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_928A0DA6-BDD7-40B9-8B3D-3486A1187ADD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:36:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> To: Reji Thomas References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 13:36:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_928A0DA6-BDD7-40B9-8B3D-3486A1187ADD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Reji, > SRv6+ confirms to the V6 architecture, explains the rationale behind = the design and is non ambiguous to start with. Till now there has not = been any valid shortcomings brought forth with the Srv6+ design. I saw a = mention that SRv6+ needs to distribute the SID to address binding and = hence require extensions to protocols which is not what was intended by = SR. Considering at a bare minimum we would need a software/microcode = update to support even the SRH parsing, I didn=E2=80=99t understand why = protocol extension and mapping for SR support with V6 is a bad idea. = Please correct me if there is a gap in my understanding. >=20 > In view of the above ,I support SRv6+ work to continue in the SPRING = WG. I agree with your arguments. +1 on work on this in SPRING, and = preferably to focus on SRv6+ and not on SRv6/uSID/etc. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_928A0DA6-BDD7-40B9-8B3D-3486A1187ADD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEKBusetbVKSypyi4qHuGLwtPIfLYFAl1xD1IACgkQHuGLwtPI fLaMRgf/fFagLM2YGTK7rtATqaHxjldv8CGLwbKA6julTanU6DrH9fKP2RCXG9DA 6OdtuLe1xqWMNSUBTKWllQRXeQ7wDu9cT/R94LX5CabXYcaUjBEZt4AwRiPEC89s nsm0YOxHicAqNd1RQku/6S2e+FxuzkU4RxnGQQpl9vUlblWlUIzmnmnfvdUsUgnN b8kQg/uVLMQAk2emwK4TGQ/MCoTfMEEWaDIPWRlb3DTaZXedqG4nb/b/sOVzjw+c rkdPRx1hDTWa82/oQZQoddZiIZIIIojfNTcWHC3JD3mJi9hFs8FgTVDzkMk0AGgk vzmXb9/mWY/CgyKKLaKXkDHVwHepYw== =JgsG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_928A0DA6-BDD7-40B9-8B3D-3486A1187ADD-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 06:46:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72E71201E5; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jc0nOQQ1Zgb4; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E064712022A; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AC223861DB; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:46:12 +0200 (CEST) To: Ole Troan , "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:46:08 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 13:46:22 -0000 On 5/9/19 16:34, Ole Troan wrote: > Joel, > >> Part of the reason we write restrictions and requirements into RFCs is so that we do not have to repeat the arguments. >> >> If the proponents of the insertion have arguments for why it is now okay, they need to make those arguments. And they need to make sure that the discussion is taken to the relevant working groups. The burden should not be on those who are asking that attention be paid to existing RFCs. > > As far as I know, but I'm trying to stay away from the actual proposals and argue this generally, no-one is proposing to update the RFC8200 header insertion text. > What people are proposing are for specific domains. And given that, I believe people need to argue the technical merits of those specific proposals. > As opposed to throwing the "law book" around. Se, please let me recap the history on this topic, for those that missed it: 1) EH insertion was originally proposed on the basis that RFC2460 wasn't clear whether it was allowed or not. 2) Since we were doing rfc2460bis (now RFC8200), we incorporated text into RFC8200 so that nobody could claim that the IPv6 spec is not clear on this topic. 3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that ignores RFC8200, and proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing RFC8200, and IETF consensus. I don't think it's in the spring wg's charter to specify how IPv6 works. It should be done in 6man (or not even, because that's a major modification, and not really "maintenance"). The only book I'm throwing is: proposals from big vendors should follow the same procedures as those from mere mortals that don't happen to work for a big vendor. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 06:46:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACEA9120170 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:46:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id neVPPj4dWMVb for ; 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Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:46:21 +0100 Received: from AM0PR07MB4177.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (52.133.54.140) by AM0PR07MB5812.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.114.77) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2241.10; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:46:18 +0000 Received: from AM0PR07MB4177.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::5caf:b34c:faf9:51de]) by AM0PR07MB4177.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::5caf:b34c:faf9:51de%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2241.013; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:46:18 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Ole Troan CC: Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) Thread-Index: AdVjS14TVsuRj78sSeu1r8rfsn3VOQAdy3cAAAexfYAAAk8hAAABcf+A Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:46:18 +0000 Message-ID: <29C6363C-EE21-4786-A6F4-5BD71A499C45@jisc.ac.uk> References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) x-originating-ip: [194.82.140.195] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 944b783b-e34e-484c-06c4-08d732076df9 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 13:46:34 -0000 > On 5 Sep 2019, at 14:05, Ole Troan wrote: >=20 > I have not changed my position with regards to header insertion. > I'm arguing that you should argue technical merit on actual proposals. > Instead of trying to make RFC documents apply as laws and slap people ove= r the head with those... You made me look to see if I could find the heaviest RFC. It seems to be RF= C 5661, at 615 pages, which I think would be 1.7kg if printed double sided = A4. =20 Tim From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:01:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8B771200D7; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:01:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nCpsLlIu1Nkt; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59F2D120026; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6F1A98623C; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:01:25 +0200 (CEST) To: Tim Chown , Ole Troan Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <29C6363C-EE21-4786-A6F4-5BD71A499C45@jisc.ac.uk> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <1aa4f560-ce1e-f1f3-ef2d-eedd9b414308@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:52:45 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29C6363C-EE21-4786-A6F4-5BD71A499C45@jisc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:01:32 -0000 On 5/9/19 16:46, Tim Chown wrote: >> On 5 Sep 2019, at 14:05, Ole Troan wrote: >> >> I have not changed my position with regards to header insertion. >> I'm arguing that you should argue technical merit on actual proposals. >> Instead of trying to make RFC documents apply as laws and slap people over the head with those... > > You made me look to see if I could find the heaviest RFC. It seems to be RFC 5661, at 615 pages, which I think would be 1.7kg if printed double sided A4. Jesus! And I thought the HTTP spec was already too long! :-) -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:18:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA8C1200E0 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3nSigxPgRC_1 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x532.google.com (mail-ed1-x532.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::532]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE0BB1200F9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x532.google.com with SMTP id f19so2790148eds.12 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 07:18:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E78aIfC4q3V/TdwltmQq1BCXnyZfyv7V3CwLeOS4BAU=; b=U8W73/oX7S0wififq8TJYUbrX7N9x3mkVgcMyzjYBQm1yHRQ4IZ+lJW4gW+nPgTqxp aQh7NEsg5Gqv58JPRCQ/cUyJVgSAj233sRvOnNWrqdSzRfuIfb63vJfuDuIFKuWxasx7 Rsjhya8PwDIu9x/Yg+u5hGi0HPdLf47nNzTb+HII7PTE6+nl/0juJn8bwTy4MI4XT6eu dizzLlIMJNN2EzQpxLk0ZdZv9w+cPYV8ZHub8jfVF4m23uxtNJiIxSac0OHa3siRsjys rTZ6FVOlObgZeb8g0iDePkihdVDnJVfAGIHid/p3FpgaSzdrHFRe1TNZefhb4DbjGq+a 6BPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E78aIfC4q3V/TdwltmQq1BCXnyZfyv7V3CwLeOS4BAU=; b=hT06FpoYska6hXnnlf9sS6cZ1p9N7+go5pyrkLbY+TAOkr/EBbYMDDqsn5EojJYuCk sAUnUl9ZdgB47FYt299w0+9JU6as0pt1A0njiyL7McFv1nc+4/50KRneHCj2Kj9f5GC+ +NoCqRRenfrG8bKVKslYIqMuioPZG2dQTyhQtXNeNKTMxiReaaN0RZWgb3zlWgNN9wXz 9gvF+Ru81HqWt0OPSwzORevj0F51ZoyWVVMnPBw579bHpWBFAFz3Vy7OAxTj9ExzY9LL 6ZFcEeAdPvGNEJPEiVPoyhdVVLBIqgMjRKGWrh4UmRjYJUWEzcQvDCkDSrRHe4py/4iF o+rA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWctxIngM/WJV8WSA2oXnXv+jrwQ3vP3ZtDM1vjua1CmTjVp1ZM Hxecd9sF3vVKaQxfaJpXILpDcLX8sdUstXxiQvIA+gZOdck= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzktKHBDH18JAK9YMgCEAjbpUN9r1x+fXyHSO0emXvARa11DvCadWjq+3UQgu6DAS32yD7WwGGStnizHg0mgkw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:30d1:: with SMTP id b17mr3104431ejb.9.1567693083076; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 07:18:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:17:51 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ole Troan Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:18:08 -0000 On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 6:35 AM Ole Troan wrote: > > Joel, > > > Part of the reason we write restrictions and requirements into RFCs is = so that we do not have to repeat the arguments. > > > > If the proponents of the insertion have arguments for why it is now oka= y, they need to make those arguments. And they need to make sure that the = discussion is taken to the relevant working groups. The burden should not = be on those who are asking that attention be paid to existing RFCs. > > As far as I know, but I'm trying to stay away from the actual proposals a= nd argue this generally, no-one is proposing to update the RFC8200 header i= nsertion text. > What people are proposing are for specific domains. And given that, I bel= ieve people need to argue the technical merits of those specific proposals. Ole, I don't believe the requirements of RFC8200 were ever intended to be conditional based on the runtime environment. Either it's IPv6 or it's not. I would be opposed to bifurcating standard protocols so that they work differently in the open Internet versus a limited domain. > As opposed to throwing the "law book" around. This is isn't just throwing the law book around. Consider that extension header insertion was proposed in draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion and there was much discussion on the list. There were a number of very specific arguments articulated why this is not robust and how this can break other protocols. I don't see that the proponents of haven't provided counter arguments. So I believe that the current consensus is that EH insertion is not allowed, but that 's not just because RFC8200 says so but also because there are material reasons why it's a bad idea. This doesn't preclude the possibility of the EH insertion could be accepted some day, but I don't see how that can happen unless the arguments against it are addressed. Tom > > Best regards, > Ole > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:21:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03ED61200DB; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:21:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v2v6o7PhgBYL; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.ernw.net (mx1.ernw.net [62.159.96.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDC891200CD; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.ernw.net (unknown [IPv6:fd00:2001:0:d001::30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail1.ernw.net", Issuer "ernw ca1" (verified OK)) by mx1.ernw.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2DDC27383; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ws26.ernw.net (ws26.ernw.net [172.31.1.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ws26.ernw.net", Issuer "ernw ca1" (verified OK)) by mail1.ernw.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A79276785CA; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ws26.ernw.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 419BC63900; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:21:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:21:08 +0200 From: Enno Rey To: Ole Troan Cc: Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Message-ID: <20190905142108.GB82455@ernw.de> References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.11.3 (2019-02-01) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:21:13 -0000 Hi Ole, On Thu, Sep 05, 2019 at 03:05:14PM +0200, Ole Troan wrote: > Fernando, > > >> The IETF is not writing de jure standards. > >> In fact reality is quite different, and the Internet evolves the way it does somewhat independently of what documents the IETF produces. one may then wonder: why does the IETF produce documents "for the Internet"? [A: maybe in some cases they don't, but for the interests of vendors being involved] I've been in the IPv6 world for a while now, mostly with some distance to what's happening in the IETF. From that experience I can confirm that the [IPv6] Internet evolves "independently of what documents the IETF [here: 6man] produces". Let me still state that from such an outsider's perspective the whole debate around EH insertion for segment routing looks so blatantly obviously vendor-driven that 6man has completely lost its credibility in many circles being involved in deploying IPv6 in "the Internet". I know you folks don't rly care but mentioning 6man usually produces rolling eyes and quirky smiles. I understand that this e-mail does not argue on the grounds of technical merit, and it actually wastes more bandwidth, neutrons and life time of smart people reading this, in a debate which has already wasted *a lot* of those. May I hence ask for a response in a direct manner if you ever feel inclined to write one. thanks. Everybody have a great day Enno -- Enno Rey From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:24:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D4A120091; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FjR8PkSCpjeG; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8DDD8120026; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:24:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: spring@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x85ENrNt059305 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:23:53 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <53dddb27-758d-0880-2a74-a83130b1add1@foobar.org> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:23:52 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.18 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:24:03 -0000 Joel M. Halpern wrote on 05/09/2019 14:11: > Part of the reason we write restrictions and requirements into RFCs is > so that we do not have to repeat the arguments. > > If the proponents of the insertion have arguments for why it is now > okay, they need to make those arguments.  And they need to make sure > that the discussion is taken to the relevant working groups.  The burden > should not be on those who are asking that attention be paid to existing > RFCs. +1 on this. there's been extensive discussion about this issue on 6man, and the onus is on the authors of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming to justify this change in behaviour in IPv6 specification rather than the other way around. Nick From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:28:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85E48120855; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VQ8Oh6kIRZml; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x431.google.com (mail-pf1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 545AC120818; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x431.google.com with SMTP id q10so1887631pfl.0; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 07:28:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=c+TjjnvnSbW5vx4ph3StJefxI/+tlXBX1sWa9AbH4nM=; b=ni+iJ6hOp2w15W+mxMSSEtAZ5HRpg//1uQXj+wTgKjbBAXD6lhgb1udsYW9luspeLE EHS9pLnQihWS5TYMWyMIBnQFMdpoPauM9LDtCgp5kSu2EfFro62SWsCzqVkex3rVVcjs Le9VfbXpwCIymL6ypG+9ViNrgwUdLTzozpkUG5C8B7NPrjE9Bs65DN6WxPYhe8266V3J s2gE2jYS1p1hB7vETk+q6zkPCqQC8pHzN876A1B3qCXOqpqheHZjqpuVpszuW+e1pW/Y GWuUMngnnuKCh7cv2JOGQqqi9irh4UyuRSNmJTVUDlN4hlV6zpwITjuWUWG2uZMXlg/t OPJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=c+TjjnvnSbW5vx4ph3StJefxI/+tlXBX1sWa9AbH4nM=; b=Y3j+RzY+Ny40IPZ5cEgsU9MLaUCUKnkeLYNjtF1pwRb0yGpXfWv0bGBMHGkFlZutJX GEfSSJyA9yPh8UuCabPe60G6FvlhEV7N+RdSfsfwlvpcIsksoX/37pk59nIfGyXhStBg lAgsFhjMmry6cC3F+mSManiw2Y2+20Jh7OtXuHDGwzurnITiQ2mKAOjNZlY5exIFbRD8 YgLdvIR9Yht2j5x1YWvsjBCalivFtaTN56hR/ojZFAwTzR0PDhuf9ROb7fbjyt9T6O6c 2+Q1CcVz/9W5gQduXDyhSimquh/d7PdZisAyXwSRUPRZKT1kP/5hPHZuCGMGoQ9GInAc BwMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWnWR/GvH5CKqtimSJetxW4dTA5ArTn4nlbFllOxiK6IZ/f2gR4 MMlsqTxNGvVGckt2eaoUkSmZEHWE6fFuLQuJnPE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyx4QfKQiy1PYVxkdz9iV8uUIDqVAWLg8MB+IzYyFXQhpwY61g4+bX+3ZnVmEi2FRpcdyyqb42Fd3tkH+44LFg= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9bc5:: with SMTP id b5mr4187426pjw.107.1567693698363; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 07:28:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:28:04 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: Ole Troan , "Joel M. Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000001f50e0591cf22f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:28:28 -0000 --00000000000001f50e0591cf22f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > 3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that ignores RFC8200, and > proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing > RFC8200, and IETF consensus. Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion, deletion and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in the packet's IPv6 outer header. So functions to insert SRH or delete it discussed in SPRING DO NOT violate anything. Remember - in SRv6 you *change* IPv6 dst at each end of segment. So each SR segment node can legally do whatever it needs with EH. Is this clear enough? - - - There is other individual document in 6man proposing a solution for FRR in IPv6 which goes beyond the above. But it in no way that should impact base specs. As written base specs can be used 100% legally according to RFC8200 as it stands today. Now if 6man response to proposl of SRv6 use case for FRR with TI-LFA will state "IPv6 was not designed for that" - I am fine. It will make IPv6 deployments for sure much more robust. It may even help end to end principle shine again and get all of your end IPv6 compute and set-top boxes full open to global hackers. Thx, R. --00000000000001f50e0591cf22f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0
3) Now there's at least one I-D in = spring that ignores RFC8200, and
proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing
RFC8200, and IETF consensus.

Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion, delet= ion and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in the packe= t's IPv6 outer header.

So functions to insert SRH or delete it discussed in SPRING DO NOT vi= olate anything.=C2=A0

Remember - in = SRv6 you *change* IPv6 dst at each end of segment. So each SR segment node = can legally=C2=A0 do whatever it needs with EH.=C2=A0

Is this clear enough?=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0
<= br>
There is other individual document in 6man prop= osing a solution for FRR in IPv6 which goes beyond=C2=A0the above. But it i= n no way that should impact base specs. As written base specs can be used 1= 00% legally=C2=A0according to RFC8200 as it stands=C2=A0today.=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small">
Now if 6man response to prop= osl of SRv6 use case for FRR with TI-LFA will state "IPv6 was not desi= gned for that" - I am fine. It will make IPv6 deployments for sure muc= h more robust. It may even help end to end principle shine again and get al= l of your end IPv6 compute and set-top boxes full open to global hackers.= =C2=A0

Thx,
R.=C2= =A0
--00000000000001f50e0591cf22f0-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:35:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBC7B12022E; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:35:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 43r3IuLzdnTl; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07D00120152; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0076386218; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:35:23 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ole Troan , "Joel M. Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:35:19 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:35:42 -0000 On 5/9/19 17:28, Robert Raszuk wrote: >   > > 3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that ignores RFC8200, and > proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing > RFC8200, and IETF consensus. > > > Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion, > deletion and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in > the packet's IPv6 outer header. You only get to create EHs if you are sourcing the packets. Period. Either you are sourcing packets -- and hence you are not doing insertion --, or you are not sourcing the packets, and hence are doing insertion. And EH insertion is prohibited by RFC8200. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:42:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8884120917; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GzVu69u1GPna; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D73312089D; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 585DA86236; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:42:32 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ole Troan , "Joel M. Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:42:28 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:42:46 -0000 On 5/9/19 17:28, Robert Raszuk wrote: [....] > > Now if 6man response to proposl of SRv6 use case for FRR with TI-LFA > will state "IPv6 was not designed for that" - I am fine. As I have reiterated numerous times, nobody is arguing that. My argument is: you can't simply violate specs at will. If you have a strong case for updating any spec (IPv6, or any other), please explicitly propose it at the WG chartered to do that. Then you can proceed with the rest of the work. I'm quite pragmatic, and have spent a lot of energy doing updates to the IPv6 case when I felt I had a strong case to do so. But most of what I've seen in terms of EH-insertion is essentially trying to impose a vendor's agenda on everyone else, igonring standards and IETF consensus at will. *This* is what this discussion is about. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:43:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F90A120915; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:42:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hne8boR8_o69; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 299DB12095D; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (TLS version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) (Smail #157) id m1i5sxs-0000EqC; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:42:24 +0200 Message-Id: To: ipv6@ietf.org Cc: Ole Troan Cc: "spring@ietf.org" From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-b9D3CB0F5@u-1.phicoh.com References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:34:49 +0200 ." <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 16:42:13 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:42:48 -0000 >As far as I know, but I'm trying to stay away from the actual proposals and ar >gue this generally, no-one is proposing to update the RFC8200 header insertion > text. >What people are proposing are for specific domains. And given that, I believe >people need to argue the technical merits of those specific proposals. >As opposed to throwing the "law book" around. Maybe I missed it somewhere, but why is it so hard to publish an RFC that updates RFC 8200? Is this a process failure that we cannot update an Internet Standard? One thing is that firewalls and other middle boxes routinely violate RFC 8200 by looking beyond the IPv6 header. It is bad to have specs that do not reflect reality. I'm not aware of wide spread middle boxs that modify IPv6 packets, though there is some amount of NAT66. In general, inserting new EHs is bad for the various reasons brought up in the past. However, SR is a special case. And there is no reason we can't make an exception for a specific situation. However, somebody reading the IPv6 specs should not have an unexpected surprise of reading RFC 8200 and then later finding that some nodes violate it due to a completely unrelated RFC. It is not that much work to add a section that officially updates RFC 8200. From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:46:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F243C12010C; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dzlBP-2BKEuI; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5521E1200E0; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.68]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46PNmN5p9Kz5vk5; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:46:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.48]) by opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46PNmN44gdz1xnx; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:46:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM32.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::81c9:5f:b9c5:1241%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:46:12 +0200 From: To: Fernando Gont CC: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , li zhenqiang , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , Suresh Krishnan Thread-Topic: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Thread-Index: AQHVYkqG6R93vFf3M0yvRo+IcZ5ugacdIl6w Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:46:11 +0000 Message-ID: <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:46:17 -0000 Fernando, =20 > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont > Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 1:18 PM >=20 > Hello, Suresh, >=20 > On 2/9/19 19:07, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > [....] > >>> So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the > >>> motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on Optio= n 1. > >> > >> My argument would be: > >> Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they feel the > >> need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*, post an > >> internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for the > >> insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published, and only > >> then suggest to do EH insertion. > >=20 > > I have put down my thoughts on the future of header insertion work in a > > mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be found below > >=20 > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizhoT5Rl-TjRc >=20 > This seems e bit misleading. What I would expect is that before any work > is published on EH-insertion, the IPv6 standard is updated to allow for > EH insertion. (plese see bellow) >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > >> P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in t= he > >> context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf docume= nt > >> suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs > >> make sure that's not the case anymore. > >=20 > > Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, I > > will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are fixed. >=20 > Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or leave the > IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has had consensus > that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be bad, wastefull, > tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go through the whole > publication process, and just rely on the AD to keep the "DISCUSS" > button pressed. draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference to [I-= D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01#= section-13.1 As such, from a process standpoint, it would not going to be published befo= re [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] be itself published as RFC. = And from its name, the latter is intended to be discussed and within contro= l of the 6MAN WG. So I don't think that we can say that it "just rely on th= e AD to keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed." In my mind, this should also be a clear indication that the question of hea= der insertion is (to be) within the control of the 6MAN WG. But you may hav= e a different opinion. Regards, --Bruno =20 > Put another way: what'd be the rationale for having a draft-ietf and > have the corresponding wg ship the document with something that clearly > goes against IETF consensus, and that the relevant AD has declared that > wouldn't let pass? >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:46:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33041208D2 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WCqSNG001vzc for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6708E120169 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id z67so2304712qkb.12 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 07:46:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9oBxTF6/6IOTRI40weUQAY8euJf04JswaFtCXvYGxbI=; b=f79ZIvom99o4vLIaFYI9gvaRFaMZD8vQxJxZZsf5QXQv+8pFyl61I1eFDsxqBrnGQE +Zr+QF5ViKaUIwKJIRY/7fo/nJZ+YLqiHKhK5WbE4O4P56tNgL8VBro6agTEp5xXe8Le SFsjSN6YmcGVYB4B0VJgKrSKuvzq8VWA8IBhpTBTemGVFlkYP+/Q0hOYcjMl6vW4TgAM 0+WghkAVCqUI/pNAhnOk79DV3veRKChfrTKLQDBy5hr4bdDOCk4Ihg1GRRmVLFk0LHWM jc6/JDwrHo+X3ytCc81LB2YKbehxFuM76vxLfZMe7lNNIsPspqOJhVv+mkYSBKA5VScp BM8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9oBxTF6/6IOTRI40weUQAY8euJf04JswaFtCXvYGxbI=; b=S1o08DvPdxgDhS+xsKFUBttOdNgeIJwdq/0ctNSOBNLbv0i5EJ5EsFZQ27Mrwued++ OKrsQntopHB0HBmsEsb4AJTyG7LD/iTvTd2ycAxEKjbTOeEEMxzvjm/48GQWDZdryGth 7LTIs4a17QpzMIcQDzhHSG2muLu2A+AzP1GYJPPsBYqm5ivVrF4hJMUzhLNbE+hdKIdB +ipCU9V51Urzk/VEDLZ8EpZoLBDMqvNyA8Zoyvyg6QdYY25tUW/ClOJVFNppdkBFKSV8 8RbLIFrS2E2b1PIFlb7B/EUy1QVYib4ciIezhMgM7kQdhAZ1d+cZz7yS4TjThIyk2ERG uHMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUPqtBjYCAmN6iFN1714MMbl7h3ymwnlCWC27y8SWPr82ji8fFc HAdLqBUdmG0RsRBEf7aR0DiKCnJoR/Cf16uYhzA9Rw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxrtYCWTWhm+fCuMevUbq+tl+Focyvtu4lO8FxCdVviUf7gQWy4uGV8xJLRgEmSWVu4DT/S/WKDiSJNz7Cz7Q4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1245:: with SMTP id a5mr3147544qkl.134.1567694794431; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 07:46:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:46:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: Robert Raszuk , Suresh Krishnan , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ole Troan , "Joel M. Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056b4670591cf6337" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:46:45 -0000 --00000000000056b4670591cf6337 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Quote from RFC8200: Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery path, *until the packet reaches the node* (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header. So now please provide the quote from RFC8200 or any other IPv6 RFC that says explicitly: "You only get to create EHs if you are sourcing the packets. Period." While there I am still waiting for an answer to the other question ... if IPv6 packets can be legally encapsulated or not. Is encapsulation not an event of sourcing effectively a new packet with some payload ? Many thx, R. On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 4:35 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > On 5/9/19 17:28, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > > > 3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that ignores RFC8200, and > > proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing > > RFC8200, and IETF consensus. > > > > > > Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion, > > deletion and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in > > the packet's IPv6 outer header. > > You only get to create EHs if you are sourcing the packets. Period. > > Either you are sourcing packets -- and hence you are not doing insertion > --, or you are not sourcing the packets, and hence are doing insertion. > > And EH insertion is prohibited by RFC8200. > > > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000056b4670591cf6337 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quote from RFC8200:

   Extension headers (except for the Hop-b=
y-Hop Options header) are not
   processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's deliver=
y
   path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of no=
des,
   in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field
   of the IPv6 header.

So now p=
lease provide the quote from RFC8200 or any other IPv6 RFC that says explic=
itly:

<= pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;mar= gin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">"You only get to cr= eate EHs if you are sourcing the packets. Period." 

While there I am still waiting for an answer to t=
he other question ... 
if IPv6 packets can be legally encapsulated or not. Is encapsulation <=
/pre>
not an event of so=
urcing effectively a new packet with some payload ? 

Many thx,
R.


On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 4:35 PM Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 5/9/19 17:28, Robert Ra= szuk wrote:
> =C2=A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that = ignores RFC8200, and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essenti= ally circumventing
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RFC8200, and IETF consensus.
>
>
> Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion,
> deletion and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in=
> the packet's IPv6 outer header.

You only get to create EHs if you are sourcing the packets. Period.

Either you are sourcing packets -- and hence you are not doing insertion --, or you are not sourcing the packets, and hence are doing insertion.

And EH insertion is prohibited by RFC8200.


--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si= 6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492




_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--00000000000056b4670591cf6337-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 07:55:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9631200E9; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:55:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id as7FXxp5w8xX; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10988120026; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:55:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C0AA86183; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:55:37 +0200 (CEST) To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, Fernando Gont Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , li zhenqiang References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:55:33 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:55:43 -0000 On 5/9/19 17:46, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > Fernando, > > >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont >> Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 1:18 PM >> >> Hello, Suresh, >> >> On 2/9/19 19:07, Suresh Krishnan wrote: >> [....] >>>>> So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2). If the >>>>> motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardize on Option 1. >>>> >>>> My argument would be: >>>> Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they feel the >>>> need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*, post an >>>> internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for the >>>> insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published, and only >>>> then suggest to do EH insertion. >>> >>> I have put down my thoughts on the future of header insertion work in a >>> mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be found below >>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizhoT5Rl-TjRc >> >> This seems e bit misleading. What I would expect is that before any work >> is published on EH-insertion, the IPv6 standard is updated to allow for >> EH insertion. (plese see bellow) >> >> >> >> >>>> P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this topic in the >>>> context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-ietf document >>>> suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs and chairs >>>> make sure that's not the case anymore. >>> >>> Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for evaluation, I >>> will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations are fixed. >> >> Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or leave the >> IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has had consensus >> that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be bad, wastefull, >> tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go through the whole >> publication process, and just rely on the AD to keep the "DISCUSS" >> button pressed. > > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference to [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01#section-13.1 > > As such, from a process standpoint, it would not going to be published before [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] be itself published as RFC. And from its name, the latter is intended to be discussed and within control of the 6MAN WG. So I don't think that we can say that it "just rely on the AD to keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed." > > In my mind, this should also be a clear indication that the question of header insertion is (to be) within the control of the 6MAN WG. But you may have a different opinion. Maybe my mental algorithm has a bug, but: what's the point of spring working on a document that relies on something that 6man has so far rejected? You spend energy on the document and then... just sit on the I-D to see if 6man adopts voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion? Ship the document to the IESG for them to review? -- I'm lost, sorry. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 08:06:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D58BB120870; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:06:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M44o3905GIuJ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:06:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AAFF12088B; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 08:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 18F06861DB; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:05:56 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Robert Raszuk , Suresh Krishnan , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ole Troan , "Joel M. Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 18:05:52 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 15:06:03 -0000 On 5/9/19 17:46, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Quote from RFC8200: > > Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery > path, *until the packet reaches the node* (or each of the set of nodes, > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field > of the IPv6 header. At the time the packet is created, the Destination Address of course identifies the destination node. The very speficication of the Routing Header says: The Routing header is used by an IPv6 source to list one or more intermediate nodes to be "visited" on the way to a packet's destination. So each of those intermediate nodes are part of the packet delivery path, and are not allowd to do EH insertion. As noted, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 has a normative reference to voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion for a reason. I hope things are clear now. > if IPv6 packets can be legally encapsulated or not. Is encapsulation > not an event of sourcing effectively a new packet with some payload ? Yes. If you create a new packet, and you put your own address in the SA of the packet, and encapsulate what you received in the IPv6 payload, you're free to generate as many EHs as you wish. 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Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:42:48 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: Fernando Gont CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ole Troan , Suresh Krishnan , Robert Raszuk , "Joel M. Halpern" , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) Thread-Index: AdVjS14TVsuRj78sSeu1r8rfsn3VOQAdy3cAAAexfYAAAk8hAAAAOwIAAADNfYAAAGUuAAABdukAAABA0oAAAGJ/AAAArqUAAAChNrA= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:42:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.234.241.1] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ff1298fa-2bc9-4c10-3c89-08d73217b3f6 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:AM0PR03MB4035; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR03MB4035: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-forefront-prvs: 015114592F x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(136003)(39860400002)(396003)(366004)(346002)(376002)(13464003)(189003)(199004)(81166006)(9686003)(81156014)(478600001)(236005)(6306002)(54896002)(5660300002)(229853002)(8676002)(71200400001)(71190400001)(76176011)(66476007)(14454004)(6916009)(66446008)(66556008)(64756008)(14444005)(55016002)(256004)(6116002)(66946007)(76116006)(7696005)(2906002)(790700001)(3846002)(74316002)(8936002)(186003)(25786009)(26005)(476003)(486006)(86362001)(99286004)(7736002)(4326008)(6246003)(6506007)(54906003)(53546011)(53936002)(966005)(52536014)(33656002)(606006)(66066001)(446003)(316002)(11346002)(6436002)(102836004); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:AM0PR03MB4035; H:AM0PR03MB3828.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ecitele.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: j0vD7nkDTSeQ0dwePuk8OTDvSvQ6xZMtkkYkf15yUkTTxsQXtUsveuYWl0rCJsi0aWHZYA8iAGPI3SWVpO2A/MFP5bGXvL6LoYb1+1mWLu+73m5SsALRw7pmTq/E2LGwg1CKARWJX0cXHXXRlE37FlNHZI+1Ac+FcPfIfVjN6PxO5a+uldxjiF8U6PVLGnIJ684o97ov1iK1tFTrj8AQO5uSO7WrAJ6VbbAzuxTZbsfodkCIZQA+l6X1Cl1vVDI/VMUkXCMA+nKjrOkHgQ1nkawE885dgbQvlT6WLAa7uUWcsnlv6BI80huWrsTJ5nzNfSbGyPE/tl8eALgYqOXC6uICofY/su77e5dLxkmWltvtHpO6YsT5F+VYcSwaCFmYEfBERAVUOOrYw1tG5yyjrK7PcYmY88xw7+j/Ox0VPE8= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM0PR03MB3828B2F0E9A5095A34808AE39DBB0AM0PR03MB3828eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ecitele.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ff1298fa-2bc9-4c10-3c89-08d73217b3f6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Sep 2019 15:42:47.9850 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2c514a61-08de-4519-b4c0-921fef62c42a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: W7ZjzWEDVi4dlJX/10GMtFPl/+Gt9sH0LmuF368jbH8EbX5Vs8ahopSzb1Q0t/ijSNuIiVbhReyE5IziIIVqdA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR03MB4035 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-DetectorID-Processed: d8d3a2b3-1594-4c39-92fb-b8312fe65a8a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 15:43:00 -0000 --_000_AM0PR03MB3828B2F0E9A5095A34808AE39DBB0AM0PR03MB3828eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fernando, With regard to the last statement in your email "If you create a new packe= t, and you put your own address in the SA of the packet, and encapsulate w= hat you received in the IPv6 payload, you're free to generate as many EHs = as you wish", do you see the need to comply with the 8200 recommendation t= hat says Each extension header should occur at most once, except for the Destination Options header, which should occur at most twice (once before a Routing header and once before the upper-layer header). Regards, Sasha Office: +972-39266302 Cell: +972-549266302 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com -----Original Message----- From: spring On Behalf Of Fernando Gont Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 6:06 PM To: Robert Raszuk Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; Ole Troan ; Sure= sh Krishnan ; Robert Raszuk = ; Joel M. Halpern Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SR= v6 Insert function) On 5/9/19 17:46, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Quote from RFC8200: > > Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery= > path, *until the packet reaches the node* (or each of the set of node= s, > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field= > of the IPv6 header. At the time the packet is created, the Destination Address of course ident= ifies the destination node. The very speficication of the Routing Header says: The Routing header is used by an IPv6 source to list one or more intermediate nodes to be "visited" on the way to a packet's destination. So each of those intermediate nodes are part of the packet delivery path, = and are not allowd to do EH insertion. As noted, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 has a normative re= ference to voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion for a reason. I hope things are clear now. > if IPv6 packets can be legally encapsulated or not. Is encapsulation > not an event of sourcing effectively a new packet with some payload ? Yes. If you create a new packet, and you put your own address in the SA of= the packet, and encapsulate what you received in the IPv6 payload, you're= free to generate as many EHs as you wish. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://clicktime.symantec.com/38feYMbEeTFJDWxDfZN3pKM6H2?u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%= 2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fspring __________________________________________________________________________= _ This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform= ation which is=20 CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have rece= ived this=20 transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then = delete the original=20 and all copies thereof. __________________________________________________________________________= _ --_000_AM0PR03MB3828B2F0E9A5095A34808AE39DBB0AM0PR03MB3828eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fernando,

With regard to the last statement in your email = "If you create= a new packet, and you put your own address in the SA of the packet, and e= ncapsulate what you received in the IPv6 payload, you're free to generate as many EHs as you wish", do you see = the need to comply with the 8200 recommendation that says

 

<quote>

   Each extension header should oc= cur at most once, except for the

   Destination Options header, whi= ch should occur at most twice (once

   before a Routing header and o= nce before the upper-layer header).

<end quote>

 

Regards,

Sasha

 

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      +972-549= 266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.= com

 

-----Original Message-----
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Fernando Gont Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 6:06 PM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>= ; Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>; Robert Raszuk <rra= szuk@gmail.com>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SR= v6 Insert function)

 

On 5/9/19 17:46, Robert Raszuk wrote:=

> Quote from RFC8200:

>

>    Extension headers (except= for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not

>    processed, inserted, or d= eleted by any node along a packet's delivery

>    path, *until the packet r= eaches the node* (or each of the set of nodes,

>    in the case of multicast)= identified in the Destination Address field

>    of the IPv6 header.<= /o:p>

 

At the time the packet is created, the Destinati= on Address of course identifies the destination node.

 

The very speficication of the Routing Header say= s:

   The Routing header is used by an IP= v6 source to list one or more

   intermediate nodes to be "visi= ted" on the way to a packet's

   destination.

 

 

So each of those intermediate nodes are part of = the packet delivery path, and are not allowd to do EH insertion.

 

As noted, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-program= ming-01 has a normative reference to voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion= for a reason.

 

I hope things are clear now.

 

 

 

> if IPv6 packets can be legally encapsulated= or not. Is encapsulation

> not an event of sourcing effectively a new = packet with some payload ?

 

Yes. If you create a new packet, and you put you= r own address in the SA of the packet, and encapsulate what you received i= n the IPv6 payload, you're free to generate as many EHs as you wish.<= /o:p>

 

Thanks,

--

Fernando Gont

SI6 Networks

e-mail: fgont@si6networks.c= om

PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 A= E25 0D55 1D4E 7492

 

 

 

 

_______________________________________________<= o:p>

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--_000_AM0PR03MB3828B2F0E9A5095A34808AE39DBB0AM0PR03MB3828eurp_-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 09:25:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A411201CE; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:25:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KGK5jQ2vfgEp; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76F6D120112; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 09:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.70]) by opfednr24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46PQyc6S22z1yVL; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 18:25:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.57]) by opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46PQyc5f4NzDq7X; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 18:25:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM6D.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::4c24:f1ba:2b1:e490%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 18:25:12 +0200 From: To: Fernando Gont , Fernando Gont CC: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , li zhenqiang Thread-Topic: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Thread-Index: AQHVY/n8O8tIIT2x+0CySPahm/UmEacdNKpA Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:25:12 +0000 Message-ID: <17120_1567700712_5D7136E8_17120_341_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFAEF1@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78DE6120033; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 20:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KNwfKuyAh_-N; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 20:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 580E412008D; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 20:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-25.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C31EB82ABB; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 05:26:09 +0200 (CEST) To: Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , Ole Troan , Fernando Gont Cc: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , "spring@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org References: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <66f1195d-3e71-71d8-9304-1b5e76211c5b@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 06:26:02 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 09:35:01 -0700 Subject: [spring] IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 03:26:28 -0000 Ron, On 5/9/19 06:01, Ron Bonica wrote: > Fernando, Zhenqiang, > > You both have valid points. Maybe I am becoming too tolerant of > deviations from the specification. This is not a deviation in the spec. It's an outright violation of the spec. This topic has a rich history in 6man, which I will summarize as follows: 1) Folks proposed the segment routing header I-D with the argument that it wasn't clear whether EH-insertion was allowed in RFC2460 or not -- when it was clear to virtually everyone else that it was forbidden 2) The segment-routing header I-D was adopted on the condition that all text related to EH insertion should be removed. 3) Since we were in the process of doing rfc2460bis, we had the discussion to make the text crystal-clear that EH-insertion was forbidden. -- in fact, it already was. But based on 1) we discussed to make it 200% clear. 4) Some folks argued not to add text on the topic, leaving, from their pov, the spec ambiguous. This "version" of rfc2460bis was shipped from the wg. 5) During IETF LC of rfc2460bis, the issue was raised again, and there was finally consensus to add very explicit text noting that EH insertion is forbidden. And this became RFC8200. My question to the spring wg chairs and routing area ADs therefore is: how come the wg adopted a document (e.g.: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01) when it contains outright violations of specs (RFC8200) that are not in the charter of spring wg to update? (as far as I understand). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 09:35:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB498120801; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 21:33:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DpfznQTkxS4b; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 21:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C202120033; Wed, 4 Sep 2019 21:33:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id o101so800426ota.8; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 21:33:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cqRwly6RB+8aisv68ew8FI+0WAhaKuANiX8RB7UFO4s=; b=N4EouPmgJyN7dIggwCnXpUfjhbiLIZ1UgYnezmpIY3em8Q7GyNp4j9P5G+nfIwzXSn iCO1sWXVpVo04tsGJiQCKIPwIPpGYkrcelq+aM9lsY2ryIdeUTdXEVrSCmb+PymYbJU7 K9SAV81k/kDX8U5f0a9hx8/hEkZAWX2Y7owsaSfJSOOSGyusqfTH7pPtBFJD9kHxBdq8 WzzbR4ASYrTS4ndnhLIXxmnw5kgq2LnTnRYCBrUMXaY1AT/6t9bUEMm+k8DFCT3uRQeS dIARD34SCo3G1EXmVNbmMYYUK+AnIIjMyeXKmglsvofma6bY9LiQPAR9FtLnLbH7RHgO gtog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cqRwly6RB+8aisv68ew8FI+0WAhaKuANiX8RB7UFO4s=; b=GWLvN4Savxi+q0+O4csYBCMKzZ0OeHctNCZIrAhe98Wi5Hh0MhEFjPIl7bv8jP8uC6 FKjQxu8pu0d2pNBuvZ4M04vbbMZH2lVPKUw6CGqeQMEHT86E9a3ZGQduCxy3r1hNRQ0f okji3Q8K7FHaALGF+UktihVM++xRh+BGp6ZlENFf9BY4ctlHvLHVrpa/5uNPjxeuJkbB RAYQcLKoGLdg+To5oewkDIuTFeiDwdegKE+oYCdiLEmRTvKEb4wtO4ZDPHIWt/+ij36Y LY799T8ExR6yhAduhrxC/k+J2BC1wOOrzz62PUjjCBTOD/0e506S75pnyBJO9UB526mE iMmg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUS02XoQX2NUHY2MR1J92H4oo+PDpBWpePF95ipsAh0uRrKY1/9 MBeIpZuIGVTBA9Hqqka88kAMIG5d7o+kyLr/1Ks= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwlp34ZAK5j00ddLY0KxYVv00UZyiHVhOT4xu9FaQRug3A7gXiq1RKBXDhsONaRDg9JeDAlZ5c0o5AzUAThK00= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1e7b:: with SMTP id m27mr917981otr.74.1567658020324; Wed, 04 Sep 2019 21:33:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:33:13 +1000 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: li zhenqiang , Fernando Gont , Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , "spring@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 09:35:01 -0700 Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 04:33:43 -0000 On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 at 13:02, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Fernando, Zhenqiang, > > > > You both have valid points. Maybe I am becoming too tolerant of deviation= s from the specification. > > I think by definition RFCs are the authoritative definition of how protocols and their implementations are to behave. I expect to be able to use them to find out how implementations devices are to behave, or to be able to use them to report bugs to vendors when the vendors' devices aren't behaving per the RFC. An unofficial deviation from the spec makes troubleshooting harder, and could significantly increase the time to resolve a fault for a service critical to a paying customer. I've wondered if SPRING may be viewing MPLS and IPv6 are equivalent utility protocols in the SR context, and therefore are unconsciously thinking that re-purposing IPv6 fields or changing IPv6 processing and behaviour both can be done and can be done as easily as it is possible to do things like re-purpose the MPLS label field to carry SIDs. There's quite a lot of significant differences between MPLS and IPv6, even if both could be used for SR. IPv6 is an end-to-end protocol talked by hosts. It's obviously not an optional protocol for both hosts and network to have enabled if they want to use IPv6 services. It isn't a local network protocol, it's intended to operate end-to-end across the entire Internet, with all devices involved complying with RFC8200 or its ancestors. MPLS is optional in a network, usually limited to the network, is rarely talked by hosts, and isn't talked by hosts by default. There's much more scope to modify it and re-purpose it when it's a much more limited domain protocol than IPv6. These significant differences between MPLS and IPv6 are the reasons why I think it is important that the use of IPv6 with SR complies with the existing IPv6 standard RFC. Regards, Mark. > > = Ron > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > From: li zhenqiang > Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 10:59 PM > To: Fernando Gont ; Ron Bonica ; Ole Troan ; Fernando Gont > Cc: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion ; 6man@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan ; spring@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming= > Subject: Re: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 I= nsert function) > > > > Hello all, > > > > I don't think we can infer from RFC 8200 that something is mandated and s= omething is strongly suggested. If guys with different interests can infer = from an "Internet Standard" what they are interested, the standard is ambig= uous and deserves a bis. > > > > If the standard is clear, we MUST obey it, especially for the result afte= r intensive debates, do we need to repeat the discussion again? > > > > Best Regards, > > Zhenqiang Li > > ________________________________ > > li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com > > > > From: Fernando Gont > > Date: 2019-09-05 09:23 > > To: Ron Bonica; Ole Troan; Fernando Gont > > CC: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion; 6man@ietf.org; Suresh Kr= ishnan; spring@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > Subject: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Inser= t function) > > On 4/9/19 21:27, Ron Bonica wrote: > > > Ole, > > > > > > Yes, a deep breath and some introspection are always a good thing.. > > > > > > First, I think that we need to make a distinction between the "spirit" = and "letter" of the law. Next, we need to make a statement regarding good e= ngineering practice. > > > > > > RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example, In an IPv6 header, the sour= ce address must precede the destination address. Any attempt to reverse tho= se two would violate the letter of the law. > > > > > > By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests other things. For example, tran= sit nodes should not insert or delete extension headers. > > > > I don't think it "suggests" this. It clearly forbids it. > > > > > > > > > In general, these suggestions should be heeded. But exemptions can be g= ranted, on a case-by-case basis, > > > > An exception about this would be a major change regarding what IPv6 is > > and its operation. > > > > > > > > > For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use RFC 2119 language. So it is = difficult to distinguish between the spirit and letter of the law. > > > > I think you can talk about spirit when there's room for interpretation, > > or the text is not clear. > > > > I don't think there's any of that in RFC8200 regarding EH insertion > > being forbidden. > > > > In fact, we added the text we added to make it clear that it was forbidde= n. > > > > > > > > > Beyond that, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering pra= ctice. > > > > I would like to contribute one: if one is to get into publishing specs, > > new specs should comply with the specs they depend on (i.e. the > > normative references). That means: > > > > 1) Don't violate other specs, or, > > 2) If you strongly feel like it, you first update the target spec, so > > that you behave nicely (you eventually comply with it). > > > > > > > > > If a technology violates the spirit of RFC 8200 once, with good reason,= that is fine. > > > > I tend to differ here. If a technology is violating an aspect of a spec > > on which we spend a long time and energy, that's not fine. > > > > If we (IETF) do it, that would seem to be an indication of issues in the > > standardization process -- we publishing specs that not even us comply > > with doesn't seem to look nice. > > > > > > Doing this kind of major surgery (EH insertion) after elevating IPv6 to > > "Internet Standard" would bring another set of uncomfortable questions. > > > > Thanks, > > -- > > Fernando Gont > > SI6 Networks > > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Sep 5 09:35:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F8012011B; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6XCpWyG6Y4kv; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D9131200F9; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 07:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46PNmQ6t5hz2081; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:46:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.76]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46PNmQ4d6zzDq7r; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:46:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM7E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 16:46:14 +0200 From: To: Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , Ole Troan , Fernando Gont CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , "rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) Thread-Index: AQHVY5nKlGeAV4OrFUmd/rZB2nnrg6cdHmwA Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:46:13 +0000 Message-ID: <17262_1567694774_5D711FB6_17262_144_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9FB@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> <66f1195d-3e71-71d8-9304-1b5e76211c5b@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <66f1195d-3e71-71d8-9304-1b5e76211c5b@si6networks.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 09:35:01 -0700 Subject: Re: [spring] IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:46:20 -0000 Fernando, > Ron, >=20 > On 5/9/19 06:01, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Fernando, Zhenqiang, > >=20 > > You both have valid points. Maybe I am becoming too tolerant of > > deviations from the specification. >=20 > This is not a deviation in the spec. It's an outright violation of the sp= ec. >=20 > This topic has a rich history in 6man, which I will summarize as follows: >=20 > 1) Folks proposed the segment routing header I-D with the argument that > it wasn't clear whether EH-insertion was allowed in RFC2460 or not -- > when it was clear to virtually everyone else that it was forbidden >=20 > 2) The segment-routing header I-D was adopted on the condition that all > text related to EH insertion should be removed. >=20 > 3) Since we were in the process of doing rfc2460bis, we had the > discussion to make the text crystal-clear that EH-insertion was > forbidden. -- in fact, it already was. But based on 1) we discussed to > make it 200% clear. >=20 > 4) Some folks argued not to add text on the topic, leaving, from their > pov, the spec ambiguous. This "version" of rfc2460bis was shipped from > the wg. >=20 > 5) During IETF LC of rfc2460bis, the issue was raised again, and there > was finally consensus to add very explicit text noting that EH insertion > is forbidden. And this became RFC8200. >=20 >=20 > My question to the spring wg chairs and routing area ADs therefore is: > how come the wg adopted a document (e.g.: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01) > when it contains outright violations of specs (RFC8200) that are not in > the charter of spring wg to update? (as far as I understand). 1) draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference to = [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion]. As such, from a process standpoint, it's clear that it would not going to b= e published before [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] be published= as RFC. And from its name, the latter is intended to be discussed and with= in control of the 6MAN WG. 2) When writing a specification (i.e. changing the standard), there is the = question of whether we directly define the new behavior, or whether we need= to motivate the change from a usage perspective. Aka do we need use cases = documents or is this a waste of IETF time? When the point is difficult or s= ubject to debate, the proposed change is easily dismissed based on the abse= nce of a written need for that change. Hence it looks to me reasonable that the SPRING WG explicitly states that S= RH insertion would be useful, rather than some individual brings this to th= e 6MAN WG, individually claiming that it's useful for SR. If you are fine w= ith this, AFAIK, this is done with a WG adoption. Again, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference= that would automatically block RFC publication. I'm not sure what addition= al safety you would want? The SPRING WG is not to be point of asking publication of draft-ietf-spring= -srv6-network-programming. It's in a WG for discussion. If your point is th= at you don't want the spring WG to discuss the usage of EH insertion, then = you are welcome to contribute to the SPRING WG. And thank you for doing tha= t. --Bruno > Thanks, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alexander, SRv6+ does not currently define a binding SID. If one were ever needed, it = would be easy enough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoint enco= untered a binding SID, it would: * Decrement Segments Left * Copy an IPv6 address from the SFIB to the IPv6 destination address * Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the packet. Information re= quired build that header and CRH would be found in the SFIB However, I don't think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding SID. A binding S= ID is a shorthand that can be used to represent a list of SIDs. Since SRv6+= SIDs are already short, this shorthand isn't needed. But, again, if we ever needed a binding SID for another reason, we could ad= d it. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM To: Rob Shakir ; bruno.decraene@orange.com Cc: SPRING WG List Subject: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) Rob, Bruno and all, I have a naive question based, most probably, on insufficient understanding= of SRv6 (not to mention SRv6+). This question has been prompted by the complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 threa= d) about problems with supporting long lists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv= 6 Segment Routing Headers, and various approaches to mitigating these compl= aints. Section 5 of RFC 8402 defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that = "he BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instantiation of which may involve a lis= t of SIDs." It also explains that BSIDs facilitate better scalability (am= ong other things) of SR. And, as is appropriate for the architecture docum= ent, RFC 8402 does not differentiate between SR-MPLS and SRv6 in the defini= tion of Binding segments. The SR-MPLS draft (already approved f= or publication as an RFC) mentions (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2)= that the node that has allocated a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR polic= y FEC-1 for which it is the head-end "installs a transit MPLS forwarding en= try to SWAP incoming label=3D1023, with outgoing labels and outgoing interf= ace determined by the SID-List for FEC1". This explanation is fully compati= ble with the MPLS architecture where the top label of the label stack can b= e swapped with multiple new labels. Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Binding Segments going to b= e supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+? To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding of IPv6, no equivalen= t of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with the IPv6 routing head= ers as per RFC 8200. For the reference, the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draft does not mention Binding SIDs at all. >From my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported with SRv6 or SRv6+, a = Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted. Did I miss something here? Your timely feedback would be highly appreciated. Regards, and lots of thanks in advance, Sasha Office: +972-39266302 Cell: +972-549266302 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Nick Hilliard Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM To: Rob Shakir > Cc: SPRING WG List >; 6man@ietf.org= Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Rob, Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate f= or draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further un= less the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing require= d can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that the oper= ational community operates within. If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from th= e global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then t= he authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortab= le changing their allocation policies to accommodate this. Nick Ron Bonica 1 September 2019 at 22:10 Hi Fernando, 6man participants should look at the following: - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01= (In particular, Sectio= ns 4 and 5) - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-= usid-02 Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Fernando Gont Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shaki= r ; SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi, Ron, For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you p= lease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"? In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), = so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what. Thanks! Cheers, Fernando -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Fernando Gont 31 August 2019 at 21:53 Hi, Ron, For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"? In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what. Thanks! Cheers, Fernando Ron Bonica 31 August 2019 at 21:33 Rob, The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: * Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists * Operational Simplicity * SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists ---------------------------------------------------- SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that contai= n 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implementations= to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive overhead bandwid= th. SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy = these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 wo= uld require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at = line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required to= make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is clos= e to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mat= ure and should be given equal consideration. The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. Operational Simplicity ----------------------------- Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely interpretin= g (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 = introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The = following are architectural quirks of draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-head= er: * The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. = Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the leas= t-cost path from source to destination * The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. * The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and h= ow it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains o= ne locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular= way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instan= tiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural qui= rks. For example: * Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers * An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers * IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Hea= der Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the S= RH is followed by Ethernet payload. Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For example,= in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH= even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overl= oaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires net= work operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a parti= cular way to make routing work. SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work -------------------------------------------------------- SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Imp= lementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. = For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It's just IPv6 and= IPv6 OAM just works. Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of = RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won't= need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stret= ching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8= 200. = Thanks, = Ron From: spring On B= ehalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa= tion which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei= ved this transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d= elete the original and all copies thereof. ___________________________________________________________________________ --_000_BYAPR05MB5463B23849DBF51ECEA2CDBDAEBB0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Alexander,<= /o:p>

 

SRv6+ does not = currently define a binding SID. If one were ever needed, it would be easy e= nough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoint encountered a bindi= ng SID, it would:

 

  • Decrement Segments Left
  • Copy an IPv6 address from the SFIB to the IPv6 destination address
  • Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the packet. Information required= build that header and CRH would be found in the SFIB

 

However, I don̵= 7;t think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding SID. A binding SID is a s= horthand that can be used to represent a list of SIDs. Since SRv6+ SIDs= are already short, this shorthand isn’t needed.

 

But, again, if we e= ver needed a binding SID for another reason, we could add it.

 

   &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;   Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From:= spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6)

 

Rob, Bruno and all,

I have a naive questio= n based, most probably, on insufficient understanding of SRv6 (not to menti= on SRv6+).

This question has been= prompted by the complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 thread) about problems with= supporting long lists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv6 Segment Routing Head= ers, and various approaches to mitigating these complaints.

 

 

Section 5 of=
 RFC 8402 defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that “he BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instanti=
ation of which may involve a list of SIDs.” &nbs=
p; It also explains that BSIDs facilitate better=
 scalability (among other things) of SR.  And, as is appropriate for t=
he architecture document, RFC 8402 does not differentiate between SR-MPLS a=
nd SRv6 in the definition of Binding segments.
 
The SR-MPLS draft (already approved for publication a=
s an RFC)  mentions (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2) that the n=
ode that has allocated a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR policy FEC-1 for=
 which it is the head-end “install=
s a transit MPLS forwarding entry to SWAP incoming label=3D1023, with outgo=
ing labels and outgoing interface determined by the SID-List for FEC1”. This explanation is fully compatible with the MPLS=
 architecture where the top label of the label stack can be swapped with mu=
ltiple new labels. 
 
Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Binding=
 Segments going to be supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+?
To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding o=
f IPv6, no equivalent of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with t=
he IPv6 routing headers as per RFC 8200. For=
 the reference, the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draft does not mention =
Binding SIDs at all. 
 
From my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported wi=
th SRv6 or SRv6+, a Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted.=

 

Did I miss something h= ere?

 

Your timely feedback w= ould be highly appreciated.

 

Regards, and lots of t= hanks in advance,

Sasha

 

Office: +972-39266= 302

Cell:   = ;   +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com

 

From:= spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Nick Hilliard
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.= com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Rob,

Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate f= or draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further un= less the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing require= d can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that the operational community operates withi= n.

If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from th= e global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then t= he authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortab= le changing their allocation policies to accommodate this.

Nick

1 September 2019 at 22:10

Hi Fernando,

6man participants should look at the following:

- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 (In particular, Sections 4 and 5)
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-us= id-02

Ron


Juniper Business Use Only

-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6n= etworks.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.n= et>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG= List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

Hi, Ron,

For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you p= lease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"?

In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), = so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what.
Thanks!

Cheers,
Fernando



--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com<= br> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492



--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------

31 August 2019 at 21:53

Hi, Ron,

For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could
you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation = of
RFC8200 or RFC4291"?

In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly
RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the
same, or what.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Fernando

 

31 August 2019 at 21:33

Rob,=

 

The following are argu= ments for proceeding with SRv6+:

 

  • Eff= icient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6

 

Efficient forwarding w= ith deep SID Lists

----------------------= ------------------------------

 

SR customers have stat= ed a firm requirement to support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. Th= ey have also stated a requirement for implementations to forward at line sp= eed  and without consuming excessive overhead bandwidth.

 

SRv6, as defined in dr= aft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In= order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte= SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.

 

Therefore, one of the = four solutions  that you mention below is required to make SRv6 deploy= able. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is close to maturity, th= e four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mature and should be given equal consideration.

 

The four solutions are SRv6+, u= SID, draft-li and draft-mirsky.

 

Operational Simplicity=

----------------------= -------

Network operators stri= ve for operational simplicity. By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bendi= ng) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectur= al quirks that introduce operational complexity. The following are architectural quirks of  draft-ietf-6ma= n-segment-routing-header:

 

  • The= Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Therefore= , the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost pa= th from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IPv6 Authenticat= ion Header are incompatible.
  • The IPv6 destination address det= ermines whether an SRH is valid and how it is processed. For example, if th= e IPv6 destination address contains one locally instantiated value, the SRH= might be processed in one particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address = contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally inval= id.

 

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6= -network-programming  promises more architectural quirks. For example:=

 

  • Seg= ment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers
  • = An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
  • IPv6 pac= kets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Field in t= he SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is followed= by Ethernet payload.

 

Other emerging drafts = promise still more architectural quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spr= ing-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH even when Segment Lef= t equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information.

 

Furthermore, draft-fil= sfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires network operators to obta= in address space and number their networks in a particular way to make rout= ing work.

 

SRv6+ Work May Fin= ish Before SRv6 work

--------------------------------------------------------

SRv6+  has be= en implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Implementation e= xperience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. For example, = there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It’s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.

 

Furthermore, the SRv6&= #43; specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefor= e, as they progress through the working group, they won’t need to ove= rcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundament= al as RFC 8200.

 

   &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =           Thanks,

   &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp; Ron

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org><= /a> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IET= F has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Ro= uting for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=

 

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).<= /o:p>

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.=

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.

    •  

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

     

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

     

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org an= d ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. 

     

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno

     

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.=

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

 

----------------------------------= ----------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------

 


___________________________________________________________________________=

This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa= tion which is
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei= ved this
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d= elete the original
and all copies thereof.
___________________________________________________________________________=

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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR05MB6215; H:BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: zVBRLHr3HTn6s0C4rKw1AiJWCnjMeOGjIwAzFSTL4NeHgHyp+DoDriYxeHMomWUYiqhae2Ux8gJzeesY4VutPl94SMhI7T3sTZACk9InEzAV/De6lFKIHQVMIgw2tvL4mLz8rUwAytgXUG89J6fqsoFJ2RGE4Sl6jVv74OJP9BQU120DChjHdzeUaiuMUffhyNZSN5CoDbm9M6vDpbBerO1yv74+zICUamed/bZie4s+JCbPMyU87+XGmhLmlEwL/qHKQAkphfXW1s6NglaJtz/zBt/O3Oy8E47moxWVL9mzVVLHjBdfxBEATywig7DlkeuLG8UkEw8QAGX0ZY3MupkSbbhUXznkYwMmZtLKbwHarEaCQdxaTIMb1rW+GVtFo4z+d1SjdvLiJ68jiFw58ZtdzVMAq4tdsFeRA1ryHk4= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB5463F429E6AA307D0F313B9AAEBB0BYAPR05MB5463namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3ef3ecf2-3d4d-4e23-3c50-08d73229bdbe X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Sep 2019 17:51:55.2364 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 1mkSsMnEq7oaqyFPl297SAL+GvaBFfjp6euxyMHkMe8sfJJhJTAEz8mvFJO1RV1y32vZe5Bergc1W2Wf2WTNgg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6215 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-05_05:2019-09-04,2019-09-05 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909050168 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 17:52:04 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463F429E6AA307D0F313B9AAEBB0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I think that I can summarize what you are saying as follows: * An IPv6 path contains a source node, a destination node, and transit = nodes * Some transit nodes are also segment endpoints. Segment endpoints are = identified by either of the following: * The initial value of the IPv6 address * An entry in the segment list of the Routing header * According to RFC 8200, segment endpoints can insert, change, or delet= e extension headers. However, transit nodes that are not segment headers ca= nnot insert, change or delete extension headers Have I read your email, below, correctly? Is this what you are actually say= ing? Ron From: spring On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 10:28 AM To: Fernando Gont Cc: Suresh Krishnan ; 6man@ietf.org; Ole Troan <= otroan@employees.org>; Joel M. Halpern ; spring@ietf.o= rg Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv= 6 Insert function) 3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that ignores RFC8200, and proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing RFC8200, and IETF consensus. Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion, deletion a= nd mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in the packet's I= Pv6 outer header. So functions to insert SRH or delete it discussed in SPRING DO NOT violate = anything. Remember - in SRv6 you *change* IPv6 dst at each end of segment. So each SR= segment node can legally do whatever it needs with EH. Is this clear enough? - - - There is other individual document in 6man proposing a solution for FRR in = IPv6 which goes beyond the above. But it in no way that should impact base = specs. As written base specs can be used 100% legally according to RFC8200 = as it stands today. Now if 6man response to proposl of SRv6 use case for FRR with TI-LFA will s= tate "IPv6 was not designed for that" - I am fine. It will make IPv6 deploy= ments for sure much more robust. It may even help end to end principle shin= e again and get all of your end IPv6 compute and set-top boxes full open to= global hackers. Thx, R. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463F429E6AA307D0F313B9AAEBB0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

I think that I can summarize what you are saying as = follows:

 

  • An IPv6 path contains a source node, a destination node, and transit = nodes
  • Some transit nodes are also segment endpoints. S= egment endpoints are identified by either of the following:
    • =
    • The initial value of the IPv6 address
    • An entry i= n the segment list of the Routing header
  • According to RFC 8200, segment endpoints can insert, change, or delet= e extension headers. However, transit nodes that are not segment headers ca= nnot insert, change or delete extension headers

 

Have I read your email, below, correctly? Is this wh= at you are actually saying?

 

        &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;      Ron

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 10:28 AM
To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Cc: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>; 6man@ietf.org= ; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpe= rn.com>; spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question ab= out SRv6 Insert function)

 

 

3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that ignor= es RFC8200, and
proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing
RFC8200, and IETF consensus.

 

Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that= insertion, deletion and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is your= self in the packet's IPv6 outer header.

 

So functions to insert SRH or delete it discussed in = SPRING DO NOT violate anything. 

 

Remember - in SRv6 you *change* IPv6 dst at each end = of segment. So each SR segment node can legally  do whatever it needs = with EH. 

 

Is this clear enough? 

 

- - - 

 

There is other individual document in 6man proposing = a solution for FRR in IPv6 which goes beyond the above. But it in no w= ay that should impact base specs. As written base specs can be used 100% legally according to RFC8200 as it stands today= . 

 

Now if 6man response to proposl of SRv6 use case for = FRR with TI-LFA will state "IPv6 was not designed for that" - I a= m fine. It will make IPv6 deployments for sure much more robust. It may even help end to end principle shine again and get all of y= our end IPv6 compute and set-top boxes full open to global hackers. 

 

Thx,

R. 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB5463F429E6AA307D0F313B9AAEBB0BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 11:01:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C0D120A64 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:01:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e5-WYWokF11M for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:01:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1CED120A25 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id u184so84115qkd.4 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 11:00:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Zvg60Asw4SYbR1B6sLjwABkPlDxUXD/T9+G0ApfrGk4=; b=Iyqbum1jgdFiPM/U2CB3nXpnjHqS24iK93gKOawoMHzpHthFToryeWomKB2KAz/c9d pOLfWMFYdwKJ98zvtRhCQk6fTMZZ4JX2Dk5nDu9Bxq4IW2JSsjzv7SZ+79WTv0LH9uzt 8SJtclDnIBmfnnh9a55VbkMMdBXFASAlwgWAy0OgYp6mY3JLISu+fZuWXYKPCW98+MTV 3I6bJ1oxigV+ZyfB3kl8Wgv5o64eOVjpw2em6KCxO3JYgfExyI7R3YtCdJ14ZfzyongY XV+XLAyX0yC06cOXM9ChhKrMYIgVkI7DHUGBgQag/EMEqOpAOdjOGyS/AEy3fWQbodxT yrGg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Zvg60Asw4SYbR1B6sLjwABkPlDxUXD/T9+G0ApfrGk4=; b=JNbqtswymxLPnAJu94DTNloakn3KW/abad/gjSkXGtsd6u8xfdUIV/BUnz2JEjlkDd mq+xtmI/9jgy1QaaRDLDwgkJeMnIl32hFq1B3EQcpuvFn80xlhiHFuMD1HeFqeVU1D78 Bl5Qv0Jo7mNi/YpF7pRBEBd0ZmPQqDG1dQUfRLt0M3fAH0a68GY5Ol9vceaB1lUHl5M1 NPuDLTGlVyo4sgNlvkpldEXk6kicKCxXrlTPOwrUbjra0rEuiDrfA6RvSy2PXTwkD9AB 7cJbnhSgIHq53sp/uip+agXQkdhffjf2c+HYCSM/kJpBAPBpGdge2u2Mtt27L+n3m41K 3m7A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUWzCy4DP3UyZLnyezhJ8qcNTkWkCnCNPPQZ41rK3LEic6ow0q4 b3qi4iN1FUZaz+OXHWRxoAIHA3Zm6peFVwJV4nFq+A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxoX3YCSfM+oNmB8vmF1DiPlfcByTqTdZiMWEmKH2Dr6L5+HtozSSX+00rAwjSnbUBMZoGip+KZVhWjMDXA3Fs= X-Received: by 2002:a37:8547:: with SMTP id h68mr4195015qkd.219.1567706458948; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 11:00:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 20:00:48 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Robert Raszuk , Fernando Gont , Suresh Krishnan , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ole Troan , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000099169d0591d21abc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 18:01:03 -0000 --00000000000099169d0591d21abc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ron, Nope that is not correct interpretation. Let me try to rephrase it ... - An IPv6 path contains a source node, a destination node, and transit nodes - Transit nodes belong to network operators which move the packets - When packet enters operator's network it can be encapsulated and new src, dst and any other elements added to its header - original packet becomes just the payload - Then new packet (and payload) is send within given domain via transit nodes. - Some transit nodes just do basic IPv6 forwarding, some may see themselves in the dst field of the packet imposed by ingress node. - If this is the case (when packet is received by segment endpoint) packets are processed as defined by SRv6 rules. - According to RFC 8200, segment endpoints can insert, change, or delete extension headers. However, transit nodes that are not segment nodes cannot insert, change or delete extension headers Now that is more like what I highlighted few times already ... Best, R. On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 7:52 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > I think that I can summarize what you are saying as follows: > > > > - An IPv6 path contains a source node, a destination node, and transit > nodes > - Some transit nodes are also segment endpoints. Segment endpoints are > identified by either of the following: > - The initial value of the IPv6 address > - An entry in the segment list of the Routing header > - According to RFC 8200, segment endpoints can insert, change, or > delete extension headers. However, transit nodes that are not segment > headers cannot insert, change or delete extension headers > > > > Have I read your email, below, correctly? Is this what you are actually > saying? > > > > Ron > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Thursday, September 5, 2019 10:28 AM > *To:* Fernando Gont > *Cc:* Suresh Krishnan ; 6man@ietf.org; Ole > Troan ; Joel M. Halpern ; > spring@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about > SRv6 Insert function) > > > > > > 3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that ignores RFC8200, and > proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing > RFC8200, and IETF consensus. > > > > Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion, deletion > and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in the packet's > IPv6 outer header. > > > > So functions to insert SRH or delete it discussed in SPRING DO NOT violate > anything. > > > > Remember - in SRv6 you *change* IPv6 dst at each end of segment. So each > SR segment node can legally do whatever it needs with EH. > > > > Is this clear enough? > > > > - - - > > > > There is other individual document in 6man proposing a solution for FRR in > IPv6 which goes beyond the above. But it in no way that should impact base > specs. As written base specs can be used 100% legally according to RFC8200 > as it stands today.. > > > > Now if 6man response to proposl of SRv6 use case for FRR with TI-LFA will > state "IPv6 was not designed for that" - I am fine. It will make IPv6 > deployments for sure much more robust. It may even help end to end > principle shine again and get all of your end IPv6 compute and set-top > boxes full open to global hackers. > > > > Thx, > > R. > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000099169d0591d21abc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

Nope that is n= ot correct interpretation. Let me try to rephrase it ...=C2=A0
  • An IPv6 pa= th contains a source node, a destination node, and transit nodes<= /u>
  • Transit nodes belong to network operators which move the p= ackets=C2=A0
  • When packet enters operator's network it can = be encapsulated and new src, dst and any other elements added to its header= - original packet becomes just the payload
  • Then new packet (a= nd payload) is send within given domain via transit nodes.=C2=A0
  • Some transit nodes just do basic IPv6 forwarding, some may see themselve= s in the dst field of the packet imposed by ingress node.
  • If t= his is the case (when packet is received by segment endpoint) packets are p= rocessed as defined by SRv6 rules.=C2=A0
  • According to RFC 8200= , segment endpoints can insert, change, or delete extension headers. Howeve= r, transit nodes that are not segment nodes cannot insert, change or delete= extension headers
Now that is more like what I highlighted f= ew times already ...=C2=A0

Best,
R= .



<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 7:52 PM Ron Bon= ica <rbonica=3D40juniper= .net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

I think that I can summarize what you are saying as = follows:

=C2=A0

  • An IPv6 path contains a source node, a destination node, and trans= it nodes
  • Some transit nodes are also segment end= points. Segment endpoints are identified by either of the following:=
    • The initial value of the IPv6 address
    • = An entry in the segment list of the Routing header
  • According to RFC 8200, segment endpoints can insert, change, or de= lete extension headers. However, transit nodes that are not segment headers= cannot insert, change or delete extension headers

=C2=A0

Have I read your email, below, correctly? Is this wh= at you are actually saying?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Beha= lf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 10:28 AM
To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Cc: Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@gmail.com>; 6man@ietf.org; Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>;= Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question ab= out SRv6 Insert function)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that i= gnores RFC8200, and
proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing
RFC8200, and IETF consensus.

=C2=A0

Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion, de= letion and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in the pa= cket's IPv6 outer header.

=C2=A0

So functions to insert SRH or delete it discussed in SPRING DO NOT = violate anything.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Remember - in SRv6 you *change* IPv6 dst at each end of segment. So= each SR segment node can legally=C2=A0 do whatever it needs with EH.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Is this clear enough?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

=C2=A0

There is other individual document in 6man proposing a solution for= FRR in IPv6 which goes beyond=C2=A0the above. But it in no way that should= impact base specs. As written base specs can be used 100% legally=C2=A0according to RFC8200 as it stands=C2=A0today= ..=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Now if 6man response to proposl of SRv6 use case for FRR with TI-LF= A will state "IPv6 was not designed for that" - I am fine. It wil= l make IPv6 deployments for sure much more robust. It may even help end to end principle shine again and get all of y= our end IPv6 compute and set-top boxes full open to global hackers.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx,

R.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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[73.189.13.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w26sm3538822pfi.140.2019.09.05.11.10.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Sep 2019 11:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:10:04 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Alexander Vainshtein , Rob Shakir , "=?utf-8?Q?bruno.decraene=40orange.com?=" , Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG List Message-ID: <6a0173ba-ae15-4aad-a584-6d5065f5f076@Spark> In-Reply-To: References: X-Readdle-Message-ID: 6a0173ba-ae15-4aad-a584-6d5065f5f076@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5d714f81_4fa0d2e3_237f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 18:10:18 -0000 --5d714f81_4fa0d2e3_237f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Ron, another, and quite important use of BSID in SR-MPLS is to provide an anch= or point to another domain/layer and an abstraction to program this layer= without understanding its semantics. SR/RSVP-TE or IP/Opto would be a perfect example of that, draft-anand-spr= ing-poi-sr describes such case. Cheers, Jeff On Sep 5, 2019, 10:39 AM -0700, Ron Bonica , wrote: > Hi Alexander, > > SRv6+ does not currently define a binding SID. If one were ever needed,= it would be easy enough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoin= t encountered a binding SID, it would: > > > =E2=80=A2 Decrement Segments Left > =E2=80=A2 Copy an IPv6 address from the S=46IB to the IPv6 destination = address > =E2=80=A2 Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the packet. Inform= ation required build that header and CRH would be found in the S=46IB > > > However, I don=E2=80=99t think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding SID.= A binding SID is a shorthand that can be used to represent a list of SID= s. Since SRv6+ SIDs are already short, this shorthand isn=E2=80=99t neede= d. > > But, again, if we ever needed a binding SID for another reason, we coul= d add it. > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > =46rom: spring On Behalf Of Alexander Vains= htein > Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM > To: Rob Shakir ; bruno.decraene=40orange.com > Cc: SPRING WG List > Subject: =5Bspring=5D Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) > > Rob, Bruno and all, > I have a naive question based, most probably, on insufficient understan= ding of SRv6 (not to mention SRv6+). > This question has been prompted by the complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 t= hread) about problems with supporting long lists of 128-bits of SIDs in t= he IPv6 Segment Routing Headers, and various approaches to mitigating the= se complaints. > > > Section 5 of R=46C 8402 defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that = =E2=80=9Che BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instantiation of which may inv= olve a list of SIDs.=E2=80=9D It also explains that BSIDs facilitate be= tter scalability (among other things) of SR. And, as is appropriate for = the architecture document, R=46C 8402 does not differentiate between SR-M= PLS and SRv6 in the definition of Binding segments. > The SR-MPLS draft (already approved for publication as an R=46C) menti= ons (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2) that the node that has alloca= ted a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR policy =46EC-1 for which it is th= e head-end =E2=80=9Cinstalls a transit MPLS forwarding entry to SWAP inco= ming label=3D1023, with outgoing labels and outgoing interface determined= by the SID-List for =46EC1=E2=80=9D. This explanation is fully compatibl= e with the MPLS architecture where the top label of the label stack can b= e swapped with multiple new labels. > Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Binding Segments going = to be supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+=3F > To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding of IPv6, no equiv= alent of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with the IPv6 routin= g headers as per R=46C 8200. =46or the reference, the IPv6 Segment Routin= g Header draft does not mention Binding SIDs at all. > =46rom my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported with SRv6 or SRv= 6+, a Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted. > > Did I miss something here=3F > > Your timely feedback would be highly appreciated. > > Regards, and lots of thanks in advance, > Sasha > > Office: +972-39266302 > Cell:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +972-549266302 > Email:=C2=A0=C2=A0 Alexander.Vainshtein=40ecitele.com > > =46rom: spring On Behalf Of Nick Hilliard > Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM > To: Rob Shakir > Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man=40ietf.org > Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D Beyond SRv6. > > Rob, > > Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropria= te for draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress furt= her unless the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing= required can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints tha= t the operational community operates within. > > If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned fro= m the global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, = then the authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be c= omfortable changing their allocation policies to accommodate this. > > Nick > > Ron Bonica > > 1 September 2019 at 22:10 > > Hi =46ernando, > > > > 6man participants should look at the following: > > > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing-01 (In particular, Sections 4 and 5) > > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid-02 > > > > Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -----Original Message----- > > =46rom: =46ernando Gont > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM > > To: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG List ; 6man=40ietf.org > > Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi, Ron, > > > > =46or those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, cou= ld you please clarify what do you mean by =22stretching the interpretatio= n of > > R=46C8200 or R=46C4291=22=3F > > > > In the past we have seen outright violation of R=46C8200 (formerly R=46= C2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, = or what. > > > > Thanks=21 > > > > Cheers, > > =46ernando > > > > > > -- > > =46ernando Gont > > SI6 Networks > > e-mail: fgont=40si6networks.com > > PGP =46ingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8=46B1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 749= 2 > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IET=46 IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6=40ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > =46ernando Gont > > 31 August 2019 at 21:53 > > Hi, Ron, > > > > =46or those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, cou= ld > > you please clarify what do you mean by =22stretching the interpretati= on of > > R=46C8200 or R=46C4291=22=3F > > > > In the past we have seen outright violation of R=46C8200 (formerly > > R=46C2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do th= e > > same, or what. > > > > Thanks=21 > > > > Cheers, > > =46ernando > > > > Ron Bonica > > 31 August 2019 at 21:33 > > Rob, > > > > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: > > > > > > =E2=80=A2 Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > > =E2=80=A2 Operational Simplicity > > =E2=80=A2 SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 > > > > > > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that = contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for impleme= ntations to forward at line speed =C2=A0and without consuming excessive o= verhead bandwidth. > > > > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot sa= tisfy these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments,= SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a lo= ng SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. > > > > Therefore, one of the four solutions =C2=A0that you mention below is = required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-h= eader is close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below = are equally mature and should be given equal consideration. > > > > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. > > > > Operational Simplicity > > ----------------------------- > > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely inter= preting (and sometimes bending) the requirements of R=46Cs 4291 and R=46C= 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational co= mplexity. The following are architectural quirks of =C2=A0draft-ietf-6man= -segment-routing-header: > > > > > > =E2=80=A2 The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than= routing. Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that trave= rse the least-cost path from source to destination > > =E2=80=A2 The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible= . > > =E2=80=A2 The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is v= alid and how it is processed. =46or example, if the IPv6 destination addr= ess contains one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed i= n one particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains anot= her locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. > > > > > > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =C2=A0promises more archit= ectural quirks. =46or example: > > > > > > =E2=80=A2 Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension h= eaders > > =E2=80=A2 An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > > =E2=80=A2 IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. =46or example, = the Next Header =46ield in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, e= ven though the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload. > > > > > > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. =46or = example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to exami= ne the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH ha= s been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. > > > > =46urthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requ= ires network operators to obtain address space and number their networks = in a particular way to make routing work. > > > > SRv6+ Work May =46inish Before SRv6 work > > -------------------------------------------------------- > > SRv6+ =C2=A0has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on= JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrates that specification is fair= ly complete. =46or example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. I= t=E2=80=99s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. > > > > =46urthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpreta= tion of R=46C 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group= , they won=E2=80=99t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably = encountered when stretching the interpretation of a specification that is= so fundamental as R=46C 8200. > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0Thanks, > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =46rom: spring On Behalf Of Rob Shakir > > Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > > To: SPRING WG List > > Subject: =5Bspring=5D Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi SPRING WG, > > > > Over the last 5+ years, the IET=46 has developed Source Packet Routin= g in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) = and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in U= DP or GRE. > > > > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or R=46C Editor).= > > > > During the SPRING WG meeting at IET=46 105, two presentations were re= lated to the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > > > > =E2=80=A2 SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spr= ing-srv6-plus-04 > > =E2=80=A2 uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-n= et-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 > > > > > > During the IET=46 week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > > > > =E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6= -np-00 > > =E2=80=A2 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr= -03 > > > > > > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to und= erstand what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it= is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on t= he requirements for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from = the perspective of operators that are looking to deploy these technologie= s, and from that of the software/hardware implementation. > > > > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in S= R over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > > > > =E2=80=A2 use case (e.g. =46ast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > > =E2=80=A2 forwarding performance and scaling requirements > > > > > > =E2=80=A2 e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID= required in max and average). =46or the latter, if possible using both S= Rv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typic= ally be different (*). > > > > > > =E2=80=A2 if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their ci= rcumstances, details of the requirement of a different solution is requir= ed and whether this solution is needed for the short term only or for the= long term. > > > > > > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community= to briefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which = limit the deployment of SRv6=C2=A0 In particular limitations related to t= he number of SIDs which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use = of shorter SIDs would improve the deployments . > > > > =46or both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to= the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send= it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > > > > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. = As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs=40ietf.o= rg and ADs via spring-ads=40ietf.org. > > > > Thank you, > > -- Rob & Bruno > > > > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two in= structions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required= . > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IET=46 IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6=40ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > > This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inf= ormation which is > CON=46IDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have= received this > transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and th= en delete the original > and all copies thereof. > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > spring mailing list > spring=40ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --5d714f81_4fa0d2e3_237f Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Ron,

another, and quite important use of BSID in SR-MPLS= is to provide an anchor point to another domain/layer and an abstraction= to program this layer without understanding its semantics.
SR/RSVP-TE or IP/Opto would be a perfect example of= that, draft-anand-spring-poi-sr describes such case.

Cheers,
Jeff
On Sep 5, 2019, 10:39 AM -0700, Ron= Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net=40dmarc.ietf.org>, wrote:

Hi Alexan= der,

&=23160;<= /span>

SRv6+ doe= s not currently define a binding SID. If one were ever needed, it would b= e easy enough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoint encounter= ed a binding SID, it would:

&=23160;<= /span>

  • Decrement Segments Left
  • Copy an IPv6 address from the S=46IB to = the IPv6 destination address
  • Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH = to the packet. Information required build that header and CRH would be fo= und in the S=46IB

&=23160;<= /span>

However, = I don=E2=80=99t think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding SID. A binding = SID is a shorthand that can be used to represent a list of SIDs. Since SR= v6+ SIDs are already short, this shorthand isn=E2=80=99t needed.

&=23160;<= /span>

But, agai= n, if we ever needed a binding SID for another reason, we could add it.

&=23160;<= /span>

&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160; &=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;Ron

&=23160;<= /span>

&=23160;<= /span>

&=23160;<= /span>

Juniper Business Use Only

=46rom= : spring <spring-bounc= es=40ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs=40google.com>; bruno.decraene=40orange= .com
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring=40ietf.org>
Subject: =5Bspring=5D Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6)<= /span>

&=23160;

Rob, Bru= no and all,

I have a= naive question based, most probably, on insufficient understanding of SR= v6 (not to mention SRv6+).

This que= stion has been prompted by the complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 thread) abo= ut problems with supporting long lists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv6 Se= gment Routing Headers, and various approaches to mitigating these complai= nts.

&=23160;=

&=23160;= 

Section 5 of R=46C 8402 defines Bin=
ding Segments (BSIDs) and says that =E2=80=9Che BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instantiation=
 of which may involve a list of SIDs.=E2=80=
=9D   It also explains that BSIDs facilit=
ate better scalability (among other things) of SR.  And, as is appropriat=
e for the architecture document, R=46C 8402 does not differentiate betwee=
n SR-MPLS and SRv6 in the definition of Binding segments.
 
The S=
R-MPLS draft (already approved for publication as an R=46C)  mentions=
 (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2) that the node that has allocated=
 a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR policy =46EC-1 for which it is the h=
ead-end =E2=80=9Cinstalls a transi=
t MPLS forwarding entry to SWAP incoming label=3D1023, with outgoing labe=
ls and outgoing interface determined by the SID-List for =46EC1=E2=80=9D. This explanation is fully compatible wit=
h the MPLS architecture where the top label of the label stack can be swa=
pped with multiple new labels. 
 
Can somebody please explain how (if at all)=
 are Binding Segments going to be supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+=3F
To the best of my (admittedly, limited) und=
erstanding of IPv6, no equivalent of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is =
allowed with the IPv6 routing headers as per R=46C 8200. =46or the reference,=
 the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draft does not mention Binding SIDs at all. 
 
=46rom my POV, if Binding segments cannot b=
e supported with SRv6 or SRv6+, a Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted=
.

&=23160;=

Did I mi= ss something here=3F

&=23160;=

Your tim= ely feedback would be highly appreciated.

&=23160;=

&=23160;=

=46rom= : spring <spring-bounces=40ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Nick Hilliard
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs= =40google.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <sp= ring=40ietf.org>; 6man=40ie= tf.org
Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D Beyond SRv6.

&=23160;

Rob,

Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate= for draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress furthe= r unless the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing r= equired can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that = the operational community operates within.

If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from = the global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, th= en the authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be com= fortable changing their allocation policies to accommodate this.

Nick

1 Septembe= r 2019 at 22:10

Hi =46ernando,

6man participants should look at the following:

- https://tools.= ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 (In parti= cular, Sections 4 and 5)
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6= -usid-02

Ron


Juniper Business Use Only

-----Original Message-----
=46rom: =46ernando Gont &l= t;fgont=40si6networks.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40= juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs=40google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring=40ietf.org>; 6man=40ietf.org
Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D Beyond SRv6.

Hi, Ron,

=46or those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could y= ou please clarify what do you mean by =22stretching the interpretation of=
R=46C8200 or R=46C4291=22=3F

In the past we have seen outright violation of R=46C8200 (formerly R=46C2= 460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or= what.

Thanks=21

Cheers,
=46ernando



--
=46ernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont=40si6network= s.com
PGP =46ingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8=46B1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492


--------------------------------------------------------------------
IET=46 IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6=40ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------

31 August = 2019 at 21:53

Hi, Ron,

=46or those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you please clarify what do you mean by =22stretching the interpretation o= f
R=46C8200 or R=46C4291=22=3F

In the past we have seen outright violation of R=46C8200 (formerly
R=46C2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what.

Thanks=21

Cheers,
=46ernando

&=23160;

31 August = 2019 at 21:33

Rob,

&=23160;

The follow= ing are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+:

&=23160;

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6

&=23160;

Efficient = forwarding with deep SID Lists

----------= ------------------------------------------

&=23160;

SR custome= rs have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that contain 8 to 1= 2 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implementations to fo= rward at line speed &=23160;and without consuming excessive overhead band= width.

&=23160;

SRv6, as d= efined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy these re= quirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 would re= quire a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at line= speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.

&=23160;

Therefore,= one of the four solutions &=23160;that you mention below is required to = make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is clo= se to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally = mature and should be given equal consideration.

&=23160;

The four solutions are = SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky.

&=23160;

Operationa= l Simplicity

----------= -------------------

Network op= erators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely interpreting (and s= ometimes bending) the requirements of R=46Cs 4291 and R=46C 8200, SRv6 in= troduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The = following are architectural quirks of &=23160;draft-ietf-6man-segment-rou= ting-header:

&=23160;

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than rout= ing. Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse t= he least-cost path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid = and how it is processed. =46or example, if the IPv6 destination address c= ontains one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one= particular way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another l= ocally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid.

&=23160;

Draft-ietf= -spring-srv6-network-programming &=23160;promises more architectural quir= ks. =46or example:

&=23160;

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension header= s
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
  • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. =46or example, the N= ext Header =46ield in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even t= hough the SRH is followed by Ethernet payload.

&=23160;

Other emer= ging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. =46or example, in dr= aft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH eve= n when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overloa= ded to carry OAM as well as routing information.

&=23160;

=46urtherm= ore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires network o= perators to obtain address space and number their networks in a particula= r way to make routing work.

&=23160;

SRv6+ Work= May =46inish Before SRv6 work

------------------------------------------------= --------

SRv6+ &=23= 160;has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Impl= ementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete.= =46or example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2=80=99s = just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.

&=23160;

=46urtherm= ore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of R=46C = 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won=E2=80= =99t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when= stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental = as R=46C 8200.

&=23160;

&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160; &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;Thanks,<= /span>

&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160; &=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;Ron

&=23160;

&=23160;

&=23160;

&=23= 160;

&=23160;

&=23160;

=46rom:= spring <spring-bounces=40ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <sp= ring=40ietf.org>
Subject: =5Bspring=5D Beyond SRv6.

&=23160;

Hi SPRING WG,

&=23160;

Over the last 5+ years,= the IET=46 has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) ak= a Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes= . SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.

&=23160;

These encapsulations ar= e past WG last call (in IESG or R=46C Editor).

&=23160;

During the SPRING WG me= eting at IET=46 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of t= he size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane:

&=23160;

During the IET=46 week,= two additional drafts have been proposed:

&=23160;

As we expressed during = the meeting, it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of ad= ditional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG s= hould first get to a common understanding on the requirements for a new I= Pv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective of operator= s that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of the sof= tware/hardware implementation.=

&=23160;

Therefore, we would lik= e to solicit network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane = to briefly introduce their:

  • use case (e.g. =46ast Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding performance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in max = and average). =46or the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs = and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*).
  • if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, = details of the requirement of a different solution is required and whethe= r this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term.

&=23160;

As well as deployment l= imitations, we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the pl= atform limitations that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv= 6&=23160; In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs which c= an be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would imp= rove the deployments .<= /p>

&=23160;

=46or both of these set= s of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the info= rmation cannot be shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs = & AD (Martin).

&=23160;

This call for informati= on will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reac= h the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs=40ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads=40ietf.org= = .&=23160;

&=23160;

Thank you,

-- Rob & Bruno

&=23160;

(*) As expressed on the= mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and a= n adjacency SID hence less SID may be required.

&=23160;

&=23160;

Juniper Business Use Only

&=23160;

--------------------= ------------------------------------------------
IET=46 IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6=40ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------

&=23160;


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--5d714f81_4fa0d2e3_237f-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 11:34:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243AA1208D5 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6molsVlBcx6I for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21D2B1200F3 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id o9so3694889edq.0 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 11:34:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RwSBuGrmG9RsB5s9owgZzJmg9dBfpBzfFhveNjR2xQc=; b=lJ///y48YJ61yel0apQCtiZJI4PpmfZuS2hT902MeQb2HX6tWO6ohKdT6ox8GGFJqC 6AZCWz/TA1VfBEDAtm8x7jfLbQwh+xB1udh0/X1GlqmY0nbEuG5X+Po+f+DleQ+jy8tP GDueZpH4D2S2hUAz+1H7gzMoQzP0PDAQ7UrIosmbl2gxhvJA3gBpZWxOfLmTocdSrr4N hOKv3pQPLQ95Dd68dVExCDabwoUcaWNgVwbYFfQlLU4J5ATkB3Mwz4HGBfxZU1IwFp7p EfZxJL4ZvNM/gU1RZhzOho/PSmfJhCmMR0nTGff3FfbSnTUBQnxrssxfgGD8tLqozL8O bHsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RwSBuGrmG9RsB5s9owgZzJmg9dBfpBzfFhveNjR2xQc=; b=rrmxeWFtm0b/aD0i9Q0E5AXenAoMSug6ostJfDfczHnqPOjlwvOT5pD46Oizbt/x0a eFMqaTplLRy3qNgtRQ8tnrrgEqoO2HaOglxh8HH1hpDekkrZRvp2P5hTEDEg2Nr0lLWX oBkedS0L3K8k1HWIQdd44VgLc3fUrhX4CWXcB+ZW6tF9WA58togJGo8SGxrTbXsFLU9l 8WImEz1R/vvCOhato38hBV8VSDXEF+sjSTrAGL8FH2BIrqUrNRxScQGgh5zUJTMXN8Nw qb741obgU8tyGLg7s62ThuMe0EM7d2Oj6OKjrAz1P/4IGRfVuix94ALyk8E5wsrOMQ58 lw0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXBntEabXZkyj0W1Ae/JL+xkV/iFZFvcG3hAdxmG9vjEtbdYTxU J6DqOeKZ9N/q7ByBuTyG5+KTi7wC6yrg6BSBqDt2cA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwllcagYj0lXM6Ijo/hLLXU6/G3M4fF2r3NyfFZ2HPJPHPixNLQBGZHEn0YTaBWCxcZlGdE1aCg8m5Zpd3c4Qc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:286:: with SMTP id l6mr5440624edv.111.1567708468542; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 11:34:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 11:34:16 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , Fernando Gont Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 18:34:33 -0000 On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 11:01 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi Ron, > > Nope that is not correct interpretation. Let me try to rephrase it ... > > An IPv6 path contains a source node, a destination node, and transit node= s > Transit nodes belong to network operators which move the packets > When packet enters operator's network it can be encapsulated and new src,= dst and any other elements added to its header - original packet becomes j= ust the payload > Then new packet (and payload) is send within given domain via transit nod= es. > Some transit nodes just do basic IPv6 forwarding, some may see themselves= in the dst field of the packet imposed by ingress node. > If this is the case (when packet is received by segment endpoint) packets= are processed as defined by SRv6 rules. > According to RFC 8200, segment endpoints can insert, change, or delete ex= tension headers. However, transit nodes that are not segment nodes cannot i= nsert, change or delete extension headers > Robert, That's an arbitrary interpretation of RFC8200. Even we were to accept that, it still doesn't address the issues raised for extension header insertion. For instance, I'd invite you do the thought experiment about what happens when an intermediate node inserts a header that causes the packet to exceed the MTU of some downstream forwarding node. There is no robust protocol mechanism to deal with this. The fact that the extension header in question happens to be segment routing doesn't change things in this regard. Tom > Now that is more like what I highlighted few times already ... > > Best, > R.. > > > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 7:52 PM Ron Bonica wrote: >> >> Robert, >> >> >> >> I think that I can summarize what you are saying as follows: >> >> >> >> An IPv6 path contains a source node, a destination node, and transit nod= es >> Some transit nodes are also segment endpoints. Segment endpoints are ide= ntified by either of the following: >> >> The initial value of the IPv6 address >> An entry in the segment list of the Routing header >> >> According to RFC 8200, segment endpoints can insert, change, or delete e= xtension headers. However, transit nodes that are not segment headers canno= t insert, change or delete extension headers >> >> >> >> Have I read your email, below, correctly? Is this what you are actually = saying? >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> From: spring On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk >> Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 10:28 AM >> To: Fernando Gont >> Cc: Suresh Krishnan ; 6man@ietf.org; Ole Troa= n ; Joel M. Halpern ; spring@iet= f.org >> Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about = SRv6 Insert function) >> >> >> >> >> >> 3) Now there's at least one I-D in spring that ignores RFC8200, and >> proposes EH-insertion as if it was allowed, essentially circumventing >> RFC8200, and IETF consensus. >> >> >> >> Incorrect. RFC8200 makes it black on white clear that insertion, deletio= n and mangling is allowed in IPv6 if destination is yourself in the packet'= s IPv6 outer header. >> >> >> >> So functions to insert SRH or delete it discussed in SPRING DO NOT viola= te anything. >> >> >> >> Remember - in SRv6 you *change* IPv6 dst at each end of segment. So each= SR segment node can legally do whatever it needs with EH. >> >> >> >> Is this clear enough? >> >> >> >> - - - >> >> >> >> There is other individual document in 6man proposing a solution for FRR = in IPv6 which goes beyond the above. But it in no way that should impact ba= se specs. As written base specs can be used 100% legally according to RFC82= 00 as it stands today... >> >> >> >> Now if 6man response to proposl of SRv6 use case for FRR with TI-LFA wil= l state "IPv6 was not designed for that" - I am fine. It will make IPv6 dep= loyments for sure much more robust. It may even help end to end principle s= hine again and get all of your end IPv6 compute and set-top boxes full open= to global hackers. >> >> >> >> Thx, >> >> R. >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:01:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D3E120B81; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hKsvDCvOdbgZ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61B3D120B34; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (ppp-94-69-228-80.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A0C7986270; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:00:41 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> <6c4d9835-f9ef-66e1-8b9b-212e88d864cf@gmail.com> <7abe24ce-fc63-e41b-cb3d-bce6acd76e9f@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <1ebf5650-8461-e3cd-9360-46ed747603bc@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 18:57:42 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:00:54 -0000 On 5/9/19 18:31, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Fernando, > > I am taking you extremely seriously ! In fact some of your emails make > me even worried.  > > You say in one email that encapsulation is allowed and that the event of > encapsulation is the same as sourcing.  > > So please notice text in network programming draft which says:  > >    This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and aims >    at standardizing the main segment routing functions to enable the >    creation of interoperable *overlays* > * > * > I am not sure what is your definition of an overlay is but to me the > most common way to create an overlay of any sort is via encapsulation.  > > I would not mix the use cases of net programming which apparently > happened and generated so much confusion around. Sure it could be used > also without encapsulation, but does it make it immediately illegal ? I'm lost here. Again: * draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference to draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion * draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion is about EH insertion * EH insertion is forbidden by RFC8200 We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores and curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supporting EH insertion, really. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:01:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30284120C89; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jKJz2xztfpRt; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AD0D120C4B; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (ppp-94-69-228-80.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0B4648627C; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:00:43 +0200 (CEST) To: Alexander Vainshtein Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ole Troan , Suresh Krishnan , Robert Raszuk , "Joel M. Halpern" , Robert Raszuk References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <73a40138-33f4-73e3-40b8-2578ab7744e2@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 19:06:44 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:00:58 -0000 On 5/9/19 18:42, Alexander Vainshtein wrote: > Fernando, > > With regard to the last statement in your email "If you create a new > packet, and you put your own address in the SA of the packet, and > encapsulate what you received in the IPv6 payload, you're free to > generate as many EHs as you wish", do you see the need to comply with > the 8200 recommendation that says > >   > > > >    Each extension header should occur at most once, except for the > >    Destination Options header, which should occur at most twice (once > >    before a Routing header and once before the upper-layer header). > > Of course. I was mostly meaning that if you encapsulate, then the resulting packet can contain an EH, because you'd not be *inserting* and EH in an existing packet, but rather creating a brand new one. Of course, the rest of RFC8200 still applies. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:01:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04260120B7C; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rsmZUct0krhi; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9989120B7F; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (ppp-94-69-228-80.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5FE1686270; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:00:48 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica Cc: Robert Raszuk , Suresh Krishnan , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ole Troan , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:36:43 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:01:03 -0000 On 5/9/19 21:00, Robert Raszuk wrote: > * According to RFC 8200, segment endpoints can insert, change, or > delete extension headers. However, transit nodes that are not > segment nodes cannot insert, change or delete extension headers Seriously? The text in RFC8200 is there with respect to any intermmediate box. segment endpoints, unless they encapsulate the packet in a new outer packet, are still intermmediate systems. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:20:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC81120AF7; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:20:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dvEKtN1wSZNE; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com (mail-pg1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B309A120271; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:20:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id m3so1945114pgv.13; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:20:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4E5OP3zw8sU7zdJqQDpNIJ3OcL+8G6H6Qn08KOzh9e4=; b=ODvvf64Yteq2llFfAP/oyav0tma5BtqBf7tNP0r0uXeykz3Y1pY1JV3SL5SlXGoRsN 3lU2WV05BbTU7yavbil6VhtL2j6vH22CGbFlU9IG9HKHulX8M0Nt4AhbW5kv7GEEOcwJ qi1ZUDnOcnQtBdqcl3J26UCheWW7Qsc2497DcnKw3fHicxBWdjavk94hvWG+83X9XpSe 71PZ+cbEo5ALK6BdiI/cNt8CwkcivV1aKf006RSqMVyECCDm49sU4Ce3jLNjV4Qmt/ji UlMt1Uct6hRQMdveMRBUp44u2aZzijj1FiP8Mm+M+22cJHMsoSPxediGc1/aRb35xKof C0ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4E5OP3zw8sU7zdJqQDpNIJ3OcL+8G6H6Qn08KOzh9e4=; b=bJWwdvX0CtChSrT8eRwHrHgH0PAcCNBPjBxORfQ5rwqI/fodkGEPdkPUuTXZBeN0k8 A73pdpx9JRfEeLE4TnR1TkJYuImI83YRbOSMQFwbyLJtbVVVtAI5Pi4orb6PRR2qB5DD b8803IekTP/TpP0OggkHBwoWP5ueMbI5cK8H5hsZwUWd7kb59yGdDI0Jp6O9fQQTSNsK jJ/QstvJslBdC4H2nQ3yKZ2e9NxGduL4OHT4vWdbhM5PXCyNLoAE8Go0AHVFHADWiFJD egVR9Vo+F3134a8g2T7LF0K81AErWkSExtA0FslvPlgrBM0kcI62j2V4cVZ7KeVTH0ld iTAw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW5nWfBl06WPNVA5zbT84X8ANMPUKaIrV+u8AeM2cIJLQ63/8Un 1RJp5vTORU7tIo5/lmySQCyzOFzBWTH+jQj3PO4rio7d X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwX4WdBGewY+SK3nCy6e3Z4d3lAJG6MPF9OyJXhsp2uQCkA5ymsisyhAdx5tBIefIXIShmiJVl0QLVTfUmRdp0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9bc5:: with SMTP id b5mr5666657pjw.107.1567711231504; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:20:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:20:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Ron Bonica , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001077aa0591d337ce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:20:35 -0000 --0000000000001077aa0591d337ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Tom, > insertion. For instance, I'd invite you do the thought experiment > about what happens when an intermediate node inserts a header that > causes the packet to exceed the MTU of some downstream forwarding > node. Absolutely. But SRH is meaningful only within a given domain. At least I would worry much less about MTU being exceeded when you insert EH as compared when you encapsulate with complete new header including EH, DO etc ... which somehow everyone seems to be happy about. I am not seeing much logic here. Moreover if you look at telco transport today a lot of "circuits" are emulated circuits which use encap in the middle of the transports which in turn runs over their IP networks. How do you deal with such cases when one day it works and when telco underly reroutes such that it goes via bottleneck it does not ? I am seeing this daily. We even wrote IETF drafts to detect this. Now the BFD draft stuffing is a third attempt to have a tool to detect it. If IPv6 works end to end, hosts to hosts such MTU bottleneck should be part of the IPv6 transport. There is no robust protocol mechanism to deal with this. That's a problem much bigger then SR. See when I am building transport over third parties I use SLA probes which periodically validates not only SLA data but also end to end max MTU. When I see an issue I choose automatically different underlay path such that end applications do not notice the issue. Many thx, R. > --0000000000001077aa0591d337ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tom,
=C2=A0
insertion. For instance, I'd invite you do the thou= ght experiment
about what happens when an intermediate node inserts a header that
causes the packet to exceed the MTU of some downstream forwarding
node.

Absolutely.=C2= =A0

But SRH is meaning= ful only within a given domain.

At least I would worry much less about MTU being exceeded when yo= u insert EH as compared when you encapsulate with complete=C2=A0new header = including EH, DO etc ... which somehow everyone seems to be happy about. I = am not seeing much logic here.=C2=A0

Moreover if you look at telco transport today a lot of "= ;circuits" are emulated circuits which use encap in the middle of the = transports which in turn runs over their IP networks. How do you deal with = such cases when one day it works and when telco underly reroutes such that = it goes via bottleneck it does not ?=C2=A0

I am seeing this daily. We even wrote IETF drafts to d= etect this. Now the BFD draft stuffing is a third attempt to have a tool to= detect it. If IPv6 works end to end, hosts to hosts such MTU bottleneck sh= ould be part of the IPv6 transport.=C2=A0

There is no robust= protocol mechanism to deal with this.

That's a problem much bigger then SR. See when I am bui= lding transport over third parties I use SLA probes which periodically vali= dates not only SLA data but also end to end max MTU. When I see an issue I = choose automatically different underlay path such that end applications do = not notice the issue.=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.


--0000000000001077aa0591d337ce-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:24:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1DE1200C3 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:24:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id utwD_1D4eFWC for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4BA7120AF7 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id g13so3769803qtj.4 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:24:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ioeYMGvQu9fU6RiGCCWJqeLqFMQZGGfdYZc7VmOTopQ=; b=RLMM95OlHujqSP5m3UBYzUHbDQn6GExSqB6mUyr/TEUri0fH+6ooqW0BPS2R0f3inJ E+APRsXkZ3Toy20bTJa7FMkswDZHwtRiwIGSfUVEIx34MqKIoySfE8FJyi/Fj2DGoH7y he8mMlj3Ib+tIZEcMS7ySwM/7hLm8vdiHNiONlAt4PDkbcVIBIglHjsk8xggbgv2XQWM l9dfrNizZCkVbElMDhOxoihCNTGpzSJJSxXt0dghl/zyUM0f3qF6lhfWRQu6VA01qKfW eE8IDoBUw8lr+TINK7m78WWb1euVQs92yS3fYMT1y2bi73vrQJL11y1WnUZiCPbV2AnH H1dA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ioeYMGvQu9fU6RiGCCWJqeLqFMQZGGfdYZc7VmOTopQ=; b=qqysQVQ8A2i2ijOdbPQrTHeFIWA2sDGFbFnagkcTqOQDaaLNHtAlynRUH7I3mERRS6 10o3bHYwViUXwn54yGvd5/WWhPNpLw9ahcGKwGgbL+5EYY550cawowG7MvjdBnIwij2i 6ree2ImNrM+BU3I7YaNwcPfnwkypu6b/cXTLn760oAZ4E/PhWu5OdUnEBftbmuUISzwt NvEEstne+ZqR4Qhuj+4I2Tfurf1AFl4rOZG9TCS+OQHKRR4VIsjWeuGGNfCmo0hQsKk/ nJ7ACeJS1xmhDQKGpHb01thYN/z+HHP4DgmjxdzljOf0kxNubg897dkvcggH/9kSVUx0 oTZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWVmp7PajL9QZvuCp+ABr/XKUqZh0FK/cWuLnDnOTC0OcQjQpm3 ocrUtawIM3UqS2UUlKQIDAsypEHNaLHWiZfTM2kOdA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxulpuAaqIc3fvEj0eBKvHLmw2DPb1IKytvEwwv2KysWUoYNRwzCiUjcMKeVnHFh9qT/SFMCFYNmawJBwuNXIU= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7959:: with SMTP id r25mr5362113qtt.208.1567711453707; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:24:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> <6c4d9835-f9ef-66e1-8b9b-212e88d864cf@gmail.com> <7abe24ce-fc63-e41b-cb3d-bce6acd76e9f@si6networks.com> <1ebf5650-8461-e3cd-9360-46ed747603bc@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <1ebf5650-8461-e3cd-9360-46ed747603bc@si6networks.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:24:02 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: Robert Raszuk , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004f23c00591d344fd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:24:17 -0000 --0000000000004f23c00591d344fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > * draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference > to draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion > > * draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion is about EH insertion > > * EH insertion is forbidden by RFC8200 > > We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores and > curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supporting > EH insertion, really. > Please notice that version -00 which was accepted by the WG does not have such normative reference. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-00 It is not even listed as informative reference. So it can be removed tomorrow if it bothers you :) Cheers, R. --0000000000004f23c00591d344fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
* draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a norma= tive reference
to draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion

* draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion is about EH insertion

* EH insertion is forbidden by RFC8200

We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores and
curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supporting
EH insertion, really.

Please notice tha= t version -00 which was accepted by the WG does not have such normative ref= erence.=C2=A0


It is not even listed as informative reference.=C2=A0
So it can be removed tomorrow if it bothers you :)=C2=A0
=

Cheers,
R.

=C2=A0
--0000000000004f23c00591d344fd-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:30:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784391200C3; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4XJMxz3JUFs; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13B16120AFD; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a01:79c:cebd:c078:596c:c2c1:6749:79a7] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:79c:cebd:c078:596c:c2c1:6749:79a7]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D93C4E11AE0; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 19:30:21 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ole Troan Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:30:18 +0200 Message-Id: <12D2E805-1C64-4B34-8733-BC45E57202B6@employees.org> References: <1ebf5650-8461-e3cd-9360-46ed747603bc@si6networks.com> Cc: Robert Raszuk , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <1ebf5650-8461-e3cd-9360-46ed747603bc@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A5821e) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:30:24 -0000 > On 5 Sep 2019, at 21:03, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 > We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores and > curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supporting > EH insertion, really. Pot calling kettle black? This is an issue we all know is there. And has to be resolved one way or the= other. I am sure you will get ample opportunity to debate later.=20 How this thread or discussing the topic on those terms adds value is beyond m= e. So I suggest we stop.=20 Ole= From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:35:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E04120B1F for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:35:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JGTwvD5bYD7w for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com [146.101.78.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FDD1120B2B for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRA01-MR2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mr2fra01on0104.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.25.104]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-7-6TTYg9Q5OwidKIIDg-DSZA-1; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 20:35:19 +0100 Received: from PR2PR03MB5419.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (52.133.109.74) by PR2PR03MB5305.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (52.133.107.203) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2220.18; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 19:35:18 +0000 Received: from PR2PR03MB5419.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cdeb:bdb8:89a2:bca8]) by PR2PR03MB5419.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cdeb:bdb8:89a2:bca8%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2220.022; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 19:35:18 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: Robert Raszuk , Fernando Gont CC: 6man WG , Alexandre Petrescu , Robert Raszuk , "spring@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) Thread-Index: AdVjS14TVsuRj78sSeu1r8rfsn3VOQAdy3cAAAexfYAAAk8hAAAAOwIAAADNfYAAAGUuAAABdukAAAB+EQAAAFMAgAAAtVgAAAC0mgAAAOZgAAAHNMMAAAAgchA= Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 19:35:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> <6c4d9835-f9ef-66e1-8b9b-212e88d864cf@gmail.com> <7abe24ce-fc63-e41b-cb3d-bce6acd76e9f@si6networks.com> <1ebf5650-8461-e3cd-9360-46ed747603bc@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [197.155.81.57] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2b222bc1-67e8-4a83-2b04-08d732382ecb x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PR2PR03MB5305 X-MC-Unique: rjCFGqtzP_eo62zbhi_DEg-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_PR2PR03MB541979654BAA9BFC0F5E98FFEEBB0PR2PR03MB5419eurp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:37:56 -0000 --_000_PR2PR03MB541979654BAA9BFC0F5E98FFEEBB0PR2PR03MB5419eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ole, I'm far from convinced that saying we stop - while the issue is a very big = can of worms - is a good idea. Right now, there is a clear issue on the ta= ble here - and there are no proposals on how to address this - where addres= sing it would be either to remove the issue from the draft or propose somet= hing to update RFC8200 from my perspective. I fail to see how we can there= fore think that closing this discussion to "some other unforeseen date" he= lps anyone - other than pushing the can down the road... Andrew From: spring On Behalf Of Ole Troan Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2019 22:30 To: Fernando Gont Cc: 6man WG ; Alexandre Petrescu ; Robert Raszuk ; spring@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv= 6 Insert function) > On 5 Sep 2019, at 21:03, Fernando Gont > wrote: > > We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores and > curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supporting > EH insertion, really. Pot calling kettle black? This is an issue we all know is there. And has to be resolved one way or th= e other. I am sure you will get ample opportunity to debate later. How this thread or discussing the topic on those terms adds value is beyond= me. So I suggest we stop. Ole _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_PR2PR03MB541979654BAA9BFC0F5E98FFEEBB0PR2PR03MB5419eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ole,

 

I’m far from convinced that saying we stop – while the is= sue is a very big can of worms – is a good idea.  Right now, the= re is a clear issue on the table here – and there are no proposals on how to address this – where addressing it would be either to remo= ve the issue from the draft or propose something to update RFC8200 from my = perspective.  I fail to see how we can therefore  think that clos= ing this discussion to “some other unforeseen date” helps anyone – other than pushing the can down the road…<= /o:p>

 

Andrew

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ole Troan
Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2019 22:30
To: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Cc: 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.= petrescu@gmail.com>; Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>; spring@iet= f.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question ab= out SRv6 Insert function)

 



> On 5 Sep 2019, at 21:03, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>
> We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores an= d
> curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supportin= g
> EH insertion, really.

Pot calling kettle black?

This is an issue we all know is there. And has to be resolved one way or th= e other. I am sure you will get ample opportunity to debate later.

How this thread or discussing the topic on those terms adds value is beyond= me. So I suggest we stop.

Ole
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/spring

--_000_PR2PR03MB541979654BAA9BFC0F5E98FFEEBB0PR2PR03MB5419eurp_-- From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:42:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454D3120B31 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LMB7HNQqnXpD for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x541.google.com (mail-ed1-x541.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::541]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E4EB120B2D for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x541.google.com with SMTP id c19so3880637edy.10 for ; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:42:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZT1W6XNjodsQAd0T3bDs8PZ2fELayH1nxDzx2hBlTJE=; b=1tTYUAPOno0hLE9E9cw++tUynbXNvQDKtgs7kJA1aPxwHtTNQqcyxnrziOy8afsY2y G9PTuXzgiUkO8WvGqudfQwyLl9cJV85bUiHgZ3lcfWp744v6SmKhR7CzherexNwUP6no W8rOuSWHzi8n+hMojL9dE8+kANRnPTTAvYvUNOvTHUkVoEXJu5GYyIl6LfG+3SKng9RS 15eyiJT0pQHcdpkt6XaJDtf2qbxA4y4lkH0aL/U7mt4U/kltmYcfqcV6pJOi9Zp9CWSy QrCOEntrkbesohhphI52696A88jJ/IWMFOFeWKRI5alnrKLB0pjR8BOA8bxSyJMyrfol K+kA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZT1W6XNjodsQAd0T3bDs8PZ2fELayH1nxDzx2hBlTJE=; b=Ep8reyM/1Kfl1Ynay8/kCiH0dhgaPA7kXX0/2g81OUn5rrxIbkH6tntjhU6M5sDxOp EoTZlSVQBOscXzM5ctnoqme5uEgd+PMSChovloQWn0FRSSqPQDS1u+/LNvGYvL3nuCRF nPCz7PyhqCQVV/KXfsP5ZV8ecOxCFjGXCD6HNFqhMLiop0qPNLIsAqUoowja5rpiJvdd 3992haB6fKRKfogwTpyWePY7bxJVDUANmG7ks/LRZd2fEFsF/mFYbLpNIn3aBsY1gQ3z 0tQO7pyN7o0D+5XBSS3fQv3DgXTw160oX7F1qMEAqziKGO7UpIgmytB5nZV8jI2r4EDt hRWg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU0/r3hTpxq+fsthdBUIf2Bo2AYwXNkxi5S4z1qhcj4RVPuBxnr Zm3QSmqyhql8U/zyYx8tHzenedBmpGzqMuki9mB6hg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzVdpE1obpsbYV2OSB9MKdopgH67jmorrhkk1e+iwyXjLCt97tAhXqhDbAYBcM832xlwb8a6+QznX3LkiVGxfA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:2102:: with SMTP id qn2mr4369850ejb.266.1567712561495; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 12:42:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> <4c6b2456-db05-0771-5b98-bfd9f07b220b@si6networks.com> <34AB9F0F-614B-45C2-BD84-7DD53A1D5188@employees.org> <5200FFA0-E2F1-4491-8D06-0DC6BF87F77A@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:42:29 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ron Bonica , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:42:46 -0000 On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 12:20 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi Tom, > >> >> insertion. For instance, I'd invite you do the thought experiment >> about what happens when an intermediate node inserts a header that >> causes the packet to exceed the MTU of some downstream forwarding >> node. > > > Absolutely. > > But SRH is meaningful only within a given domain. > Robert, I don't see how that's relevant. The fact that a protocol is _intended_ to be used only in a controlled domain is hardly a substitute for doing the work to make the protocol robust. I don't subscribe to the idea that just because a protocol runs in a limited domain all of the problems magically go away. > At least I would worry much less about MTU being exceeded when you insert= EH as compared when you encapsulate with complete new header including EH,= DO etc ... which somehow everyone seems to be happy about. I am not seeing= much logic here. > Because, when a node encapsulates a packet it places _its_ address in the source address field. This provides the necessary attribution. So when the encapsulated packet causes issues it is clear who the culprit is-- they receive the ICMP error or when the packet is error is logged it's clear who created it. Attribution is critical to correct network operation. > Moreover if you look at telco transport today a lot of "circuits" are emu= lated circuits which use encap in the middle of the transports which in tur= n runs over their IP networks. How do you deal with such cases when one day= it works and when telco underly reroutes such that it goes via bottleneck = it does not ? > That's a deployment problem, not a protocol problem. That should be taken up in IPv6 ops WG I would think. > I am seeing this daily. We even wrote IETF drafts to detect this. Now the= BFD draft stuffing is a third attempt to have a tool to detect it. If IPv6= works end to end, hosts to hosts such MTU bottleneck should be part of the= IPv6 transport. > >> There is no robust protocol mechanism to deal with this. > > > That's a problem much bigger then SR. See when I am building transport ov= er third parties I use SLA probes which periodically validates not only SLA= data but also end to end max MTU. When I see an issue I choose automatical= ly different underlay path such that end applications do not notice the iss= ue. Right, anytime an intermediate node materially changes a packet outside of the standard protocol or increases the size of packet they are risking end to end robustness and reliability. That's why RFC8200 precludes EH insertion, and why other similar proposals to make non-standard modifications to packets in flight will be met with resistance in IETF. Tom > Many thx, > R. > >> From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:54:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCDF120B6C; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:54:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8-tTM5g2XRif; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F568120B58; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (ppp-94-69-228-80.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7D8D986268; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:54:04 +0200 (CEST) To: Ole Troan Cc: Robert Raszuk , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" References: <1ebf5650-8461-e3cd-9360-46ed747603bc@si6networks.com> <12D2E805-1C64-4B34-8733-BC45E57202B6@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 22:52:29 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <12D2E805-1C64-4B34-8733-BC45E57202B6@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:54:13 -0000 On 5/9/19 22:30, Ole Troan wrote: > > >> On 5 Sep 2019, at 21:03, Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores and >> curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supporting >> EH insertion, really. > > Pot calling kettle black? Not really. Since this whole EH-insertion debate started, it has all been about pushing it forward no matter what. The spec is clear. If you want to change it, make a strong case for it. BUt do not try to circumvent the IETF consensus on the topic. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 12:58:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B3A120B1F; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 12:58:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=hAUIAUOt; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com 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2019 19:58:13 +0000 From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" To: Fernando Gont CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Thread-Index: AQHVXxis/gF6F9KunkOxVqkDbflgtacT7YMwgAFf0ICAA0V6AIABQWiAgANe6oCAAAKegIAAVJAA Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 19:58:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ddukes@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [72.142.19.206] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: cd1b83f9-ab24-4a9c-2ce6-08d7323b627c x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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Thu Sep 5 14:59:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43403120232; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:58:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DrcM55eOvBak; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00D5C120130; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 14:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a01:79c:cebd:c078:596c:c2c1:6749:79a7] (unknown [IPv6:2a01:79c:cebd:c078:596c:c2c1:6749:79a7]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A5B84E11AC6; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:58:40 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ole Troan Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 23:58:37 +0200 Message-Id: <3D8725E7-EAA3-4615-ABA2-FFA53D2F1B14@employees.org> References: Cc: Robert Raszuk , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A5821e) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 21:58:42 -0000 Fernando, > On 5 Sep 2019, at 21:54, Fernando Gont wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 5/9/19 22:30, Ole Troan wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On 5 Sep 2019, at 21:03, Fernando Gont wrote: >>>=20 >>> We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores and >>> curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supporting >>> EH insertion, really. >>=20 >> Pot calling kettle black? >=20 > Not really. >=20 > Since this whole EH-insertion debate started, it has all been about > pushing it forward no matter what. >=20 > The spec is clear. If you want to change it, make a strong case for it. > BUt do not try to circumvent the IETF consensus on the topic. 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dXMwaFJ6dVN0eUhmcEdjWjVBQUpQb3lGS0E1OWZVUjlyRE9IUFVKelpqT295czUkIA0K From nobody Thu Sep 5 19:06:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17643120B2F; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mp2XP3oxH_Wt; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E490120B1F; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (ppp-94-69-228-80.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 70FD086268; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 22:02:02 +0200 (CEST) To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" Cc: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , li zhenqiang , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 23:01:42 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:06:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 20:02:10 -0000 On 5/9/19 22:52, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > Hey Fernando, since you’re lost, here are some more waypoints to help > you find your way ;) > > - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming mentions SRH insertion in > only 2 of 39 SID behaviors - i.e. it’s a small part of the draft, and > all insert variants have an encapsulation variant defined. I don't see how this changes the discussion here. Are you suggesting that EH insertion can be removed from the document and there would still be value in pursuing the document? > - At IETF 101, the 6man WG confirmed that SRH insertion must be worked > on before draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming can progress to RFC > - i.e. there are not surprises anywhere. > > - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming added a normative reference > to draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion to document that fact. Among the possible options is that EH-insertion is never worked out. In which case, what's the point of basing something on EH insertion when the status quo is that EH insertion is not allowed, and there does not seem to be any indication that that will change anytime soon? -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 19:06:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B449B120B31; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:47:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OpT2Wp2l8oib; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94E16120271; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.12] (ppp-94-69-228-80.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B38508627F; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 22:46:57 +0200 (CEST) To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" Cc: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , li zhenqiang , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 23:42:32 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 19:06:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 20:47:08 -0000 On 5/9/19 23:26, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > inline. > >> On Sep 5, 2019, at 4:01 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> On 5/9/19 22:52, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: >>> Hey Fernando, since you’re lost, here are some more waypoints to help >>> you find your way ;) >>> >>> - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming mentions SRH insertion in >>> only 2 of 39 SID behaviors - i.e. it’s a small part of the draft, and >>> all insert variants have an encapsulation variant defined. >> >> I don't see how this changes the discussion here. > > Perhaps you should read the whole document Fernando. I'm arguing that there is a document that relies on stuff that 6man never even wanted to adopt as wg item. You respond "but the document has other stuff". And I repeat: the document still assumes EH insertion is possible, when it's actually forbidden. >>> - At IETF 101, the 6man WG confirmed that SRH insertion must be worked >>> on before draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming can progress to RFC >>> - i.e. there are not surprises anywhere. >>> >>> - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming added a normative reference >>> to draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion to document that fact. >> >> Among the possible options is that EH-insertion is never worked out. In >> which case, what's the point of basing something on EH insertion when >> the status quo is that EH insertion is not allowed, and there does not >> seem to be any indication that that will change anytime soon? > > Ah, an excellent reason to never work on anything: if its not easy then don’t bother with the work! That's clearly not my point. My point is that you are putting the cart before the horse. Make your case for EH insertion, and try to update RFC8200 such that EH insertion is allowed (among other things, explain why you need it, and why you want to insert EHs instead of encap/decap -- which draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion does not even mention). Then do the rest. Or pursue what you are doing in spring without any EH-insertion, and postpone anything that has to do with EH insertion for when/if it is actually allowed. I'm all for you trying any of these options. But not for the very curious interpretations of RFC2460 and/or RFC8200, or trying to avoid updating RFC8200 before doing EH insertion. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Sep 5 19:06:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3801200A3; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 17:56:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=eH+LLlb9; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=mjub2Q4B Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7q3F30Dpy4G; 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Fri, 6 Sep 2019 00:56:39 +0000 From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" To: Fernando Gont CC: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Suresh Krishnan" , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , li zhenqiang , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Thread-Index: AQHVXxis/gF6F9KunkOxVqkDbflgtacT7YMwgAFf0ICAA0V6AIABQWiAgANe6oCAAAKegIAAUwOAgAAChwCAAAcIAIAABGEAgABE47M= Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 00:56:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-CA X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ddukes@cisco.com; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Fernando. The takeaway I attempted to highlight is that there is in fact agreement be= tween 6man and spring on how to proceed, and we are proceeding as agreed to= work on the relevant documents. Thanks! Darren ________________________________ From: Fernando Gont Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 4:47 PM To: Darren Dukes (ddukes) Cc: bruno.decraene@orange.com; Fernando Gont; Ron Bonica; spring@ietf.org; = 6man@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan; draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion= ; li zhenqiang; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function On 5/9/19 23:26, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > inline. > >> On Sep 5, 2019, at 4:01 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> On 5/9/19 22:52, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: >>> Hey Fernando, since you=92re lost, here are some more waypoints to help >>> you find your way ;) >>> >>> - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming mentions SRH insertion in >>> only 2 of 39 SID behaviors - i.e. it=92s a small part of the draft, and >>> all insert variants have an encapsulation variant defined. >> >> I don't see how this changes the discussion here. > > Perhaps you should read the whole document Fernando. I'm arguing that there is a document that relies on stuff that 6man never even wanted to adopt as wg item. You respond "but the document has other stuff". And I repeat: the document still assumes EH insertion is possible, when it's actually forbidden. >>> - At IETF 101, the 6man WG confirmed that SRH insertion must be worked >>> on before draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming can progress to RF= C >>> - i.e. there are not surprises anywhere. >>> >>> - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming added a normative referenc= e >>> to draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion to document that fact. >> >> Among the possible options is that EH-insertion is never worked out. In >> which case, what's the point of basing something on EH insertion when >> the status quo is that EH insertion is not allowed, and there does not >> seem to be any indication that that will change anytime soon? > > Ah, an excellent reason to never work on anything: if its not easy then d= on=92t bother with the work! That's clearly not my point. My point is that you are putting the cart before the horse. Make your case for EH insertion, and try to update RFC8200 such that EH insertion is allowed (among other things, explain why you need it, and why you want to insert EHs instead of encap/decap -- which draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion does not even mention). Then do the rest. Or pursue what you are doing in spring without any EH-insertion, and postpone anything that has to do with EH insertion for when/if it is actually allowed. I'm all for you trying any of these options. But not for the very curious interpretations of RFC2460 and/or RFC8200, or trying to avoid updating RFC8200 before doing EH insertion. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 --_000_DM6PR11MB260302DC79D7E7BF6367B74AC8BA0DM6PR11MB2603namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Fernando. 

The takeaway I attempted to highlight is tha= t there is in fact agreement between 6man and spring on how to proceed, and= we are proceeding as agreed to work on the relevant documents.

Thanks!
  Darren

From: Fer= nando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 4:47 PM
To: Darren Dukes (ddukes)
Cc: bruno.decraene@orange.com; Fernando Gont; Ron Bonica; spring@iet= f.org; 6man@ietf.org; Suresh Krishnan; draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-in= sertion; li zhenqiang; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function
 
On 5/9/19 23:26, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
> inline.
>
>> On Sep 5, 2019, at 4:01 PM, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.co= m> wrote:
>>
>> On 5/9/19 22:52, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
>>> Hey Fernando, since you=92re lost, here are some more waypoint= s to help
>>> you find your way ;)
>>>
>>> - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming mentions SRH inse= rtion in
>>> only 2 of 39 SID behaviors - i.e. it=92s a small part of the d= raft, and
>>> all insert variants have an encapsulation variant defined.
>>
>> I don't see how this changes the discussion here.
>
> Perhaps you should read the whole document Fernando.

I'm arguing that there is a document that relies on stuff that 6man
never even wanted to adopt as wg item. You respond "but the document h= as
other stuff". And I repeat: the document still assumes EH insertion is=
possible, when it's actually forbidden.



>>> - At IETF 101, the 6man WG confirmed that SRH insertion must b= e worked
>>> on before draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming can progr= ess to RFC
>>> - i.e. there are not surprises anywhere.
>>>
>>> - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming added a normative= reference
>>> to draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion to document tha= t fact.
>>
>> Among the possible options is that EH-insertion is never worked ou= t. In
>> which case, what's the point of basing something on EH insertion w= hen
>> the status quo is that EH insertion is not allowed, and there does= not
>> seem to be any indication that that will change anytime soon?
>
> Ah, an excellent reason to never work on anything: if its not easy the= n don=92t bother with the work!

That's clearly not my point. My point is that you are putting the cart
before the horse.

Make your case for EH insertion, and try to update RFC8200 such that EH
insertion is allowed (among other things, explain why you need it, and
why you want to insert EHs instead of encap/decap -- which
draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion does not even mention). Then do the rest.

Or pursue what you are doing in spring without any EH-insertion, and
postpone anything that has to do with EH insertion for when/if it is
actually allowed.

I'm all for you trying any of these options. But not for the very
curious interpretations of RFC2460 and/or RFC8200, or trying to avoid
updating RFC8200 before doing EH insertion.

Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492




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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4682da84-a858-4f58-01f3-08d73279fad5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Sep 2019 03:26:17.5050 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: thu36VosisEiVGo8IMezi7S8nlMDUBvoXw0RP8Zo8GSpZuYFHCcBtsN4LTRFANGW+6lV3zmghk3GjJ6Lq5zhnA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6101 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-06_02:2019-09-04,2019-09-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909060037 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 03:26:32 -0000 Ole, The IETF does not write de jure standards. At the same time, it must not bl= ithely progress proposals that ignore existing standards. We need to find a= balance. Generally speaking, proposals that conform to the spirit and letter of exis= ting standards are better than proposals that deviate. This is a matter of = hygiene. However, exemptions might be granted. IMHO, a WG can progress a proposal that deviates from existing standards if= all of the following conditions are met: 1) The proposal documents the deviation 2) The proposal explores alternative solutions that do not deviate 3) The proposal explains either a) that alternative solutions do not exist,= or b) why alternative solutions are not viable 4) The proposal describes the possibly limited deployment environment in wh= ich it is applicable 5) The WG cannot demonstrate any risk associated the deviation in the descr= ibed deployment environment A na=EFve reading of your message, below, suggests that we fixate on Condit= ion #5, ignoring conditions #1 - #4. I'm pretty sure that wasn't your inten= t. If it were, our new process lead us into some bad places. Like you, I want to avoid legalistic readings of existing standards. This i= s why I talk about the "spirit and letter" of a standard. For example, assu= me the following: - An existing standard defines a mechanism for doing something - A new proposal reinvents that wheel without sufficient motivation The new proposal does not violate the letter of the existing standard, but = it does violate its spirit. Clearly, the barriers to progressing a draft that violates the letter of an= existing standard should be higher than the barriers to progressing a draf= t that violates the spirit of an existing standard.=20 = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Ole Troan =20 Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 4:19 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Fernando Gont ; Suresh Krishnan ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org; draft-voyer-6man-extension-head= er-insertion ; draft-= ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert = function) Dear Ron, The IETF is not writing de jure standards. In fact reality is quite different, and the Internet evolves the way it doe= s somewhat independently of what documents the IETF produces. In fact I know of no networking products (or deployments) that follow the i= ntent and spirit of RFC8200. I challenge to point me to one! ;-) Let me quote Tony Li's response to Fernando's escalation email to the archi= tecture list: "The fact of the matter is that the IETF is completely helpless to prevent = such things.=20 True, it can block standardization, but if the market wants it, the market = will drive it and all that the IETF does is to make itself irrelevant to th= e process." My suggestion to Fernando was to argue the issues on technical merit. Can you please explain why you don't do that? - Does it break end to end transparency? - Can end host protect their traffic with encryption or do the proposed mec= hanisms break that? - How is PMTUD, ICMP errors, AH being handled? - Does it break intereroperability? Best regards, Ole > On 4 Sep 2019, at 20:27, Ron Bonica wrote: >=20 > Ole, >=20 > Yes, a deep breath and some introspection are always a good thing. >=20 > First, I think that we need to make a distinction between the "spirit" an= d "letter" of the law. Next, we need to make a statement regarding good eng= ineering practice. >=20 > RFC 8200 mandates some things. For example, In an IPv6 header, the source= address must precede the destination address. Any attempt to reverse those= two would violate the letter of the law. >=20 > By contrast, RFC 8200 strongly suggests other things. For example, transi= t nodes should not insert or delete extension headers. In general, these su= ggestions should be heeded. But exemptions can be granted, on a case-by-cas= e basis, given that the motivation is strong, the risk is minimal, and ther= e are no viable alternatives. >=20 > For better or worse, RFC 8200 does not use RFC 2119 language. So it is di= fficult to distinguish between the spirit and letter of the law. I think th= at is the genesis of the current debate. >=20 > Beyond that, we need to make a statement regarding good engineering pract= ice. If a technology violates the spirit of RFC 8200 once, with good reason= , that is fine. If it violates the spirit of RFC 8200 twice, we should all = start asking questions. If it violates the spirit of RFC 8200 three times, = and promises to do so again in the future, we should start to question whet= her that technology is building on RFC 8200 or trying to redefine it. > = =20 > Ron >=20 >=20 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ole Troan > Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 2:58 AM > To: Fernando Gont > Cc: Suresh Krishnan ; Ron Bonica=20 > ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org;=20 > draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion=20 > ;=20 > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=20 > > Subject: Re: Question about SRv6 Insert function >=20 > [ snip ] > I would prefer that we calmed down a bit on the protocol policing. >=20 > [ snip ] From nobody Thu Sep 5 21:15:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179B2120B15 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 21:15:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, In SRv6+ you can achieve this abstraction without a new SID type. In order = to do this, network operators: * Associate an IPv6 address with the abstract segment * Instantiate policy on abstract segment ingress nodes. The policy caus= es the abstract segment ingress nodes to encapsulate packets destined for t= he above mentioned IPv6 address in an IPv6 header with its own CRH. This IP= v6 header and CRH define the abstracted segment Now, the only problem is to get packets to the abstract segment ingress nod= e with the right IPv6 destination address. This can be achieved by associat= ed a node SID in the original packet with the above mentioned IPv6 address. And again, if network operators object to this approach, it would be easy e= nough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. However, to date, no operator has expr= essed interest. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 2:10 PM To: Alexander Vainshtein ; Rob Shakir ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG List Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) Ron, another, and quite important use of BSID in SR-MPLS is to provide an anchor= point to another domain/layer and an abstraction to program this layer wit= hout understanding its semantics. SR/RSVP-TE or IP/Opto would be a perfect example of that, draft-anand-sprin= g-poi-sr describes such case. Cheers, Jeff On Sep 5, 2019, 10:39 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: Hi Alexander, SRv6+ does not currently define a binding SID. If one were ever needed, it = would be easy enough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoint enco= untered a binding SID, it would: * Decrement Segments Left * Copy an IPv6 address from the SFIB to the IPv6 destination address * Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the packet. Information re= quired build that header and CRH would be found in the SFIB However, I don't think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding SID. A binding S= ID is a shorthand that can be used to represent a list of SIDs. Since SRv6+= SIDs are already short, this shorthand isn't needed. But, again, if we ever needed a binding SID for another reason, we could ad= d it. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Alexander Vainshtein Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM To: Rob Shakir >; bruno.decraene@= orange..com Cc: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) Rob, Bruno and all, I have a naive question based, most probably, on insufficient understanding= of SRv6 (not to mention SRv6+). This question has been prompted by the complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 threa= d) about problems with supporting long lists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv= 6 Segment Routing Headers, and various approaches to mitigating these compl= aints. Section 5 of RFC 8402 defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that = "he BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instantiation of which may involve a lis= t of SIDs." It also explains that BSIDs facilitate better scalability (am= ong other things) of SR. And, as is appropriate for the architecture docum= ent, RFC 8402 does not differentiate between SR-MPLS and SRv6 in the defini= tion of Binding segments. The SR-MPLS draft (already approved f= or publication as an RFC) mentions (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2)= that the node that has allocated a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR polic= y FEC-1 for which it is the head-end "installs a transit MPLS forwarding en= try to SWAP incoming label=3D1023, with outgoing labels and outgoing interf= ace determined by the SID-List for FEC1". This explanation is fully compati= ble with the MPLS architecture where the top label of the label stack can b= e swapped with multiple new labels. Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Binding Segments going to b= e supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+? To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding of IPv6, no equivalen= t of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with the IPv6 routing head= ers as per RFC 8200. For the reference, the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draft does not mention Binding SIDs at all. >From my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported with SRv6 or SRv6+, a = Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted.. Did I miss something here? Your timely feedback would be highly appreciated. Regards, and lots of thanks in advance, Sasha Office: +972-39266302 Cell: +972-549266302 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Nick Hilliard Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM To: Rob Shakir > Cc: SPRING WG List >; 6man@ietf.org= Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Rob, Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate f= or draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further un= less the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing require= d can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that the oper= ational community operates within. If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from th= e global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then t= he authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortab= le changing their allocation policies to accommodate this. Nick Ron Bonica 1 September 2019 at 22:10 Hi Fernando, 6man participants should look at the following: - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01= (In particular, Sectio= ns 4 and 5) - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-= usid-02 Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Fernando Gont Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shaki= r ; SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi, Ron, For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you p= lease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"? In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), = so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what. Thanks! Cheers, Fernando -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Fernando Gont 31 August 2019 at 21:53 Hi, Ron, For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"? In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what. Thanks! Cheers, Fernando Ron Bonica 31 August 2019 at 21:33 Rob, The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: * Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists * Operational Simplicity * SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists ---------------------------------------------------- SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that contai= n 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implementations= to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive overhead bandwid= th. SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy = these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 wo= uld require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at = line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required to= make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is clos= e to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mat= ure and should be given equal consideration. The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. Operational Simplicity ----------------------------- Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely interpretin= g (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 = introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The = following are architectural quirks of draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-head= er: * The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. = Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the leas= t-cost path from source to destination * The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. * The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and h= ow it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains o= ne locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular= way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instan= tiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural qui= rks. For example: * Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers * An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers * IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Hea= der Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the S= RH is followed by Ethernet payload. Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For example,= in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH= even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overl= oaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires net= work operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a parti= cular way to make routing work. SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work -------------------------------------------------------- SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Imp= lementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. = For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It's just IPv6 and= IPv6 OAM just works. Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of = RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won't= need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stret= ching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8= 200. = Thanks, = Ron From: spring On B= ehalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes.. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org.. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa= tion which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei= ved this transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d= elete the original and all copies thereof. ___________________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BYAPR05MB5463F191FCD1B0F0298BBBF0AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff,

 

In SRv6+ you can achieve this abstraction withou= t a new SID type. In order to do this, network operators:

  • Associate = an IPv6 address with the abstract segment
  • Instantiate policy on abstra= ct segment ingress nodes. The policy causes the abstract segment ingress no= des to encapsulate packets destined for the above mentioned IPv6 address in= an IPv6 header with its own CRH. This IPv6 header and CRH define the abstracted segment

Now, the only problem is to get packets to the abstr= act segment ingress node with the right IPv6 destination address. This can = be achieved by associated a node SID in the original packet with the above = mentioned IPv6 address.

 

And again, if network operators object to this appro= ach, it would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. However, to= date, no operator has expressed interest.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;   Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 2:10 PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>; R= ob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; Ron Bonica &= lt;rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6)

 

Ron,

 

another, and quite important use of BSID in SR-MPLS = is to provide an anchor point to another domain/layer and an abstraction to= program this layer without understanding its semantics.

SR/RSVP-TE or IP/Opto would be a perfect example of = that, draft-anand-spring-poi-sr describes such case.

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 5, 2019, 10:39= AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, wrote:<= /p>

Hi Alexander,

 

SRv6+ does not currently define a binding SID. If one were eve= r needed, it would be easy enough to specify and implement. When a segment = endpoint encountered a binding SID, it would:

 

  • Decrement = Segments Left
  • Copy an IPv6 address from the SFIB to the IPv6 destinati= on address
  • Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the packet. Info= rmation required build that header and CRH would be found in the SFIB<= /o:p>

 

However, I don’t think that SRv6+ will ever need a bindi= ng SID. A binding SID is a shorthand that can be used to represent a list o= f SIDs. Since SRv6+ SIDs are already short, this shorthand isn’t needed.

 

But, again, if we ever needed a binding SID for another reason, we= could add it.

 

           =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;             = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;        Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.= com>; bruno.decraene@orange..com
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>
Subject: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6)

 

Rob, Bruno and all,

I have a naive question based, most = probably, on insufficient understanding of SRv6 (not to mention SRv6+).=

This question has been prompted by t= he complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 thread) about problems with supporting lo= ng lists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv6 Segment Routing Headers, and various approaches to mitigating these compla= ints.

 

 

Section 5 of=
 RFC 8402 defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that “he BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instanti=
ation of which may involve a list of SIDs.”   <=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;c=
olor:#1F497D">It also explains that BSIDs facilitate better scalability (am=
ong other things) of SR.  And, as is appropriate for the architecture =
document, RFC 8402 does not differentiate between SR-MPLS and SRv6 in the d=
efinition of Binding segments.
 
The SR-MPLS draft (already approved for publication a=
s an RFC)  mentions (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2) that the n=
ode that has allocated a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR policy FEC-1 for=
 which it is the head-end “install=
s a transit MPLS forwarding entry to SWAP incoming label=3D1023, with outgo=
ing labels and outgoing interface determined by the SID-List for FEC1”. This explanation is fully compatible with the MPLS=
 architecture where the top label of the label stack can be swapped with mu=
ltiple new labels. 
 
Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Binding=
 Segments going to be supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+?
To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding o=
f IPv6, no equivalent of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with t=
he IPv6 routing headers as per RFC 8200. For=
 the reference, the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draft does not mention =
Binding SIDs at all. 
 
From my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported wi=
th SRv6 or SRv6+, a Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted..

 

Did I miss something here?

 

Your timely feedback would be highly= appreciated.

 

Regards, and lots of thanks in advan= ce,

Sasha

 

Office: +972-39266302

Cell:      = +972-549266302

Email:   Alexander.Vainshtein@ec= itele.com

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Nick Hilliard
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.= com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Rob,

Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate f= or draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further un= less the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing require= d can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that the operational community operates withi= n.

If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from th= e global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then t= he authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortab= le changing their allocation policies to accommodate this.

Nick

1 September 2019 at 22:10

Hi Fernando,

6man participants should look at the following:

- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 (In particular, Sections 4 and 5)
- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-us= id-02

Ron


Juniper Business Use Only

-----Original Message-----
From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6n= etworks.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.n= et>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG= List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

Hi, Ron,

For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you p= lease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"?

In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), = so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what.
Thanks!

Cheers,
Fernando



--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com<= br> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492



--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------=

31 August 2019 at 21:53

Hi, Ron,

For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could
you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation = of
RFC8200 or RFC4291"?

In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly
RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the
same, or what.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Fernando

 

31 August 2019 at 21:33

Rob,

 

The following are arguments for proc= eeding with SRv6+:

 

  • Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • Operational Simplicity
  • SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6

 

Efficient forwarding with deep SID L= ists

------------------------------------= ----------------

 

SR customers have stated a firm requ= irement to support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also s= tated a requirement for implementations to forward at line speed  and without consuming excessive overhead ba= ndwidth.

 

SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-= segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to supp= ort an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at lin= e speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.

 

Therefore, one of the four solutions=  that you mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While dr= aft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is close to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally matu= re and should be given equal consideration.

 

The four solutions are SRv6+, u= SID, draft-li and draft-mirsky.

 

Operational Simplicity

-----------------------------=

Network operators strive for operati= onal simplicity. By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requir= ements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The= following are architectural quirks of  draft-ietf-6man-segment-routin= g-header:

 

  • The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Theref= ore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost= path from source to destination
  • The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it = is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one loc= ally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, = while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally inva= lid.

 

Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming  promises more architectural quirks. For example:

 

  • Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
  • IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Fi= eld in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is = followed by Ethernet payload.

 

Other emerging drafts promise still = more architectural quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, = implementations need to examine the SRH even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overl= oaded to carry OAM as well as routing information.

 

Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-n= et-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address spa= ce and number their networks in a particular way to make routing work.

 

SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv= 6 work

------------------------------------------= --------------

SRv6+  has been implemented= on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demo= nstrates that specification is fairly complete. For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It’s ju= st IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.

 

Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifica= tions adhere to a strict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they pro= gress through the working group, they won’t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stret= ching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 8= 200.

 

      =             &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;       Thanks,

      =             &nb= sp;            =              &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;           Ron

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Rob Shakir
Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM
To: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>
Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

Over the last 5+ years, the IET= F has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Ro= uting for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6) data planes.. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.

 

These encapsulations are past WG la= st call (in IESG or RFC Editor).

 

During the SPRING WG meeting at IET= F 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the S= ID for IPv6 dataplane:

 

During the IETF week, two additiona= l drafts have been proposed:

 

As we expressed during the meeting,= it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encap= sulations are. Thus, we think it is important that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements= for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o= f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of= the software/hardware implementation.

 

Therefore, we would like to solicit= network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly int= roduce their:

  • use case (e.g. Fas= t Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding perform= ance and scaling requirements
    • e.g., (number of n= odes, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the= latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit)= SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).
  • if the existing SR= v6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requir= ement of a different solution is required and whether this solution is need= ed for the short term only or for the long term.

    •  

    As well as deployment limitations, = we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitat= ions that they are seeing which limit the deployment of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic= h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im= prove the deployments .

     

    For both of these sets of feedback = if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot b= e shared publicly, please send it directly to the chairs & AD (Martin).

     

    This call for information will run = for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING c= hairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and AD= s via spring-ads@ietf.org.. 

     

    Thank you,

    -- Rob & Bruno

     

    (*) As expressed on the mailing lis= t, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SI= D hence less SID may be required.

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

 

------------------------------------------------= --------------------
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ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------=

 


___________________________________________________________________________=

This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa= tion which is
CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei= ved this
transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d= elete the original
and all copies thereof.
___________________________________________________________________________=

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/spring

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Authors, What SID types can be represented by a uSID? Also, when an SRv6 node processes a uSID, does it also need to examine the = SRH to determine of any relevant flags are set or TLVs are specified? If it does examine the SRH and Flags.O-bit is set, is the packet punted bef= ore or after the IPv6 address is shifted? Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463F1B06F7B1A0164A84C4EAEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Authors,

 

What SID types can be represented by a uSID?

 

Also, when an SRv6 node processes a uSID, does it al= so need to examine the SRH to determine of any relevant flags are set or TL= Vs are specified?

 

If it does examine the SRH and Flags.O-bit is set, i= s the packet punted before or after the IPv6 address is shifted?=

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            = Ron

 

 


Juniper Business= Use Only

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boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB54634DC0196D47E80D83A18EAEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4bcdd179-afbc-4018-71e1-08d73284e67f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Sep 2019 04:44:27.8959 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: z2g0Qqx0ttG7SHTVJXBcyYU/MClUKaLWpi0/zrPK/8FqfuJhsCV/iOnaVD/dnZkHsMnbO7Uj+BTHn4o4ulO8OA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB5813 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-06_03:2019-09-04,2019-09-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=825 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909060053 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 04:44:34 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB54634DC0196D47E80D83A18EAEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Authors, Section 4 of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network programming has the title "Func= tions associated with a SID". Sections 4.1 through 4.18 enumerate functions= that can be associated with a SID, as one would expect. Sections 4.19 and 4.20 talk about something unrelated (SR-aware application= s and Non-SR-aware applications). Section 4.19 is vague, but sounds like it might allow transport layer infor= mation to be encoded in IPv6 addresses. You might want to clarify this. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB54634DC0196D47E80D83A18EAEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Authors,

 

Section 4 of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network programm= ing has the title “Functions associated with a SID”. Sections 4= .1 through 4.18 enumerate functions that can be associated with a SID, as o= ne would expect.

 

Sections 4.19 and 4.20 talk about something unrelate= d (SR-aware applications and Non-SR-aware applications).

 

Section 4.19 is vague, but sounds like it might allo= w transport layer information to be encoded in IPv6 addresses. You might wa= nt to clarify this.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;            =  Ron

 

 


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Fri, 6 Sep 2019 04:53:09 +0000 From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: Shraddha Hegde , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> CC: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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[73.189.13.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j2sm4485591pfe.130.2019.09.05.22.06.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Sep 2019 22:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D5EF41F2-C8A3-4511-844A-2496D94A0BE2 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jeff Tantsura X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2019 22:06:46 -0700 Cc: Alexander Vainshtein , Rob Shakir , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0B808A53-0034-4330-8D43-81EED34C0E62@gmail.com> References: <6a0173ba-ae15-4aad-a584-6d5065f5f076@Spark> To: Ron Bonica Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 05:06:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D5EF41F2-C8A3-4511-844A-2496D94A0BE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Ron! I realize that, my intention was to bring up the case where BSID is currentl= y used. Regards, Jeff > On Sep 5, 2019, at 21:15, Ron Bonica wrote: >=20 > Jeff, > =20 > In SRv6+ you can achieve this abstraction without a new SID type. In order= to do this, network operators: > Associate an IPv6 address with the abstract segment > Instantiate policy on abstract segment ingress nodes. The policy causes th= e abstract segment ingress nodes to encapsulate packets destined for the abo= ve mentioned IPv6 address in an IPv6 header with its own CRH. This IPv6 head= er and CRH define the abstracted segment > Now, the only problem is to get packets to the abstract segment ingress no= de with the right IPv6 destination address. This can be achieved by associat= ed a node SID in the original packet with the above mentioned IPv6 address. > =20 > And again, if network operators object to this approach, it would be easy e= nough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. However, to date, no operator has expre= ssed interest. > =20 > = Ron > =20 > =20 > Juniper Business Use Only > From: Jeff Tantsura =20 > Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 2:10 PM > To: Alexander Vainshtein ; Rob Shakir ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; Ron Bonica > Cc: SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) > =20 > Ron, > =20 > another, and quite important use of BSID in SR-MPLS is to provide an ancho= r point to another domain/layer and an abstraction to program this layer wit= hout understanding its semantics. > SR/RSVP-TE or IP/Opto would be a perfect example of that, draft-anand-spri= ng-poi-sr describes such case. > =20 > Cheers, > Jeff > On Sep 5, 2019, 10:39 AM -0700, Ron Bonica , wrote: >=20 > Hi Alexander, > =20 > SRv6+ does not currently define a binding SID. If one were ever needed, it= would be easy enough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoint enco= untered a binding SID, it would: > =20 > Decrement Segments Left > Copy an IPv6 address from the SFIB to the IPv6 destination address > Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the packet. Information require= d build that header and CRH would be found in the SFIB > =20 > However, I don=E2=80=99t think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding SID. A b= inding SID is a shorthand that can be used to represent a list of SIDs. Sinc= e SRv6+ SIDs are already short, this shorthand isn=E2=80=99t needed. > =20 > But, again, if we ever needed a binding SID for another reason, we could a= dd it. > =20 > = Ron > =20 > =20 > =20 > Juniper Business Use Only > From: spring On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein > Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM > To: Rob Shakir ; bruno.decraene@orange..com > Cc: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) > =20 > Rob, Bruno and all, > I have a naive question based, most probably, on insufficient understandin= g of SRv6 (not to mention SRv6+). > This question has been prompted by the complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 thre= ad) about problems with supporting long lists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv= 6 Segment Routing Headers, and various approaches to mitigating these compla= ints. > =20 > =20 > Section 5 of RFC 8402 defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that =E2=80= =9Che BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instantiation of which may involve a li= st of SIDs.=E2=80=9D It also explains that BSIDs facilitate better scalabi= lity (among other things) of SR. And, as is appropriate for the architectur= e document, RFC 8402 does not differentiate between SR-MPLS and SRv6 in the d= efinition of Binding segments. > =20 > The SR-MPLS draft (already approved for publication as an RFC) mentions (= e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2) that the node that has allocated a BS= ID label 1023 for a specific SR policy FEC-1 for which it is the head-end =E2= =80=9Cinstalls a transit MPLS forwarding entry to SWAP incoming label=3D1023= , with outgoing labels and outgoing interface determined by the SID-List for= FEC1=E2=80=9D. This explanation is fully compatible with the MPLS architect= ure where the top label of the label stack can be swapped with multiple new l= abels.=20 > =20 > Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Binding Segments going to b= e supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+? > To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding of IPv6, no equivale= nt of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with the IPv6 routing head= ers as per RFC 8200. For the reference, the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draf= t does not mention Binding SIDs at all.=20 > =20 > =46rom my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported with SRv6 or SRv6+,= a Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted.. > =20 > Did I miss something here? > =20 > Your timely feedback would be highly appreciated. > =20 > Regards, and lots of thanks in advance, > Sasha > =20 > Office: +972-39266302 > Cell: +972-549266302 > Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com > =20 > From: spring On Behalf Of Nick Hilliard > Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM > To: Rob Shakir > Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > =20 > Rob, >=20 > Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate f= or draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further unl= ess the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing required c= an be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that the operatio= nal community operates within. >=20 > If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from t= he global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then t= he authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortabl= e changing their allocation policies to accommodate this. >=20 > Nick >=20 > Ron Bonica > 1 September 2019 at 22:10 > Hi Fernando, >=20 > 6man participants should look at the following: >=20 > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-0= 1 (In particular, Sections 4 and 5) > - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6= -usid-02 >=20 > Ron >=20 >=20 > Juniper Business Use Only >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Fernando Gont > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM > To: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; SPRIN= G WG List ; 6man@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. >=20 > Hi, Ron, >=20 > For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you p= lease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of > RFC8200 or RFC4291"? >=20 > In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460),= so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Cheers, > Fernando >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > Fernando Gont > 31 August 2019 at 21:53 > Hi, Ron, >=20 > For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could > you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of > RFC8200 or RFC4291"? >=20 > In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly > RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the > same, or what. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Cheers, > Fernando >=20 > =20 >=20 > Ron Bonica > 31 August 2019 at 21:33 > Rob, > =20 > The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: > =20 > Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists > Operational Simplicity > SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 > =20 > Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists > ---------------------------------------------------- > =20 > SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that conta= in 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implementations= to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive overhead bandwidt= h. > =20 > SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy= these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 wo= uld require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at l= ine speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. > =20 > Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required t= o make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is clos= e to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally matu= re and should be given equal consideration. > =20 > The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. > =20 > Operational Simplicity > ----------------------------- > Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely interpreti= ng (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 i= ntroduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The fo= llowing are architectural quirks of draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header:= > =20 > The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. There= fore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost= path from source to destination > The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. > The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it= is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one loc= ally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, w= hile if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instantiated v= alue, the SRH might be totally invalid. > =20 > Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural qu= irks. For example: > =20 > Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers > An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers > IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Fi= eld in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is f= ollowed by Ethernet payload. > =20 > Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For example= , in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH= even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overlo= aded to carry OAM as well as routing information. > =20 > Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires ne= twork operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a parti= cular way to make routing work. > =20 > SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work > -------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Im= plementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. = For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2=80=99s just I= Pv6 and IPv6 OAM just works. > =20 > Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of= RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won=E2= =80=99t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when= stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as R= FC 8200. > =20 > = Thanks, > = Ron > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > From: spring On Behalf Of Rob Shakir > Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM > To: SPRING WG List > Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > =20 > Hi SPRING WG, > =20 > Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Ne= tworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes.. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. > =20 > These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). > =20 > During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related t= o the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: > SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-plus-0= 4 > uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extensio= n-srv6-usid-01=20 > =20 > During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03=20 > =20 > As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understa= nd what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirem= ents for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspectiv= e of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that o= f the software/hardware implementation. > =20 > Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR ove= r the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: > use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) > forwarding performance and scaling requirements > e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required in max an= d average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and sho= rter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different (*). > if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, de= tails of the requirement of a different solution is required and whether thi= s solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. > =20 > As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to b= riefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SID= s which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs wou= ld improve the deployments . > =20 > For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SP= RING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). > =20 > This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs v= ia spring-ads@ietf.org..=20 > =20 > Thank you, > -- Rob & Bruno > =20 > (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruc= tions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. > =20 > =20 > Juniper Business Use Only > =20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > =20 >=20 > __________________________________________________________________________= _ >=20 > This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains inform= ation which is > CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have rece= ived this > transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d= elete the original > and all copies thereof. > __________________________________________________________________________= _ > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-D5EF41F2-C8A3-4511-844A-2496D94A0BE2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Ron!

I realize that, my= intention was to bring up the case where BSID is currently used.

Regards,
Jeff

On Sep 5, 2019, at 21:15, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

=

Jeff,

 

In SRv6+ you can achieve this abstraction without a n= ew SID type. In order to do this, network operators:

  • Associate a= n IPv6 address with the abstract segment
  • Instantiate policy on abstract s= egment ingress nodes. The policy causes the abstract segment ingress nodes t= o encapsulate packets destined for the above mentioned IPv6 address in an IP= v6 header with its own CRH. This IPv6 header and CRH define the abstracted segment

Now, the only problem is to get packets to the abstra= ct segment ingress node with the right IPv6 destination address. This can be= achieved by associated a node SID in the original packet with the above men= tioned IPv6 address.

 

And again, if network operators object to this approa= ch, it would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. However, to date,= no operator has expressed interest.

 

         = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;  Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only=

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 2:10 PM
To: Alexander Vainshtein <Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf= .org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6)

 

Ron,

 

another, and quite important use of BSID in SR-MPLS i= s to provide an anchor point to another domain/layer and an abstraction to p= rogram this layer without understanding its semantics.

SR/RSVP-TE or IP/Opto would be a perfect example of t= hat, draft-anand-spring-poi-sr describes such case.

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 5, 2019, 10:39 A= M -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, wrote:

Hi Alexander,

 

SRv6+ does not currently define a binding SID. If one were ever need= ed, it would be easy enough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoin= t encountered a binding SID, it would:

 

  • Decrement S= egments Left
  • Copy an IPv6 address from the SFIB to the IPv6 destination a= ddress
  • Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the packet. Informatio= n required build that header and CRH would be found in the SFIB

 

However, I don=E2=80=99t think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding S= ID. A binding SID is a shorthand that can be used to represent a list of SID= s. Since SRv6+ SIDs are already short, this shorthand isn=E2=80=99t needed.

 

But, again, if we ever needed a binding SID for another reason, we c= ould add it.

 

           &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;             = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only=

From: spring <s= pring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.c= om>; bruno.decraene@orange..com
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf= .org>
Subject: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6)

 

Rob, Bruno and all,<= /p>

I have a naive question based, most pr= obably, on insufficient understanding of SRv6 (not to mention SRv6+).=

This question has been prompted by the= complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 thread) about problems with supporting long l= ists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv6 Segment Routing Headers, and various approaches to mitigating these complai= nts.

 

 

Section 5 of RFC 8402<=
/a> defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that =E2=80=9Che BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instantiation of wh=
ich may involve a list of SIDs.=E2=80=9D   =
It also explains that BSIDs facilitate better scalability (among other thing=
s) of SR.  And, as is appropriate for the architecture document, RFC 84=
02 does not differentiate between SR-MPLS and SRv6 in the definition of Bind=
ing segments.
 
The SR-MPLS draft (already approved for publication as an RFC=
)  mentions (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2) that the node that h=
as allocated a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR policy FEC-1 for which it i=
s the head-end =E2=80=9Cinstalls a transi=
t MPLS forwarding entry to SWAP incoming label=3D1023, with outgoing labels a=
nd outgoing interface determined by the SID-List for FEC1=
=E2=80=9D. This explanation is fully compatible with the MPLS architecture w=
here the top label of the label stack can be swapped with multiple new label=
s. 
 
Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Binding S=
egments going to be supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+?

To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding of I=
Pv6, no equivalent of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with the I=
Pv6 routing headers as per RFC 8200. For the refe=
rence, the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draft does not mention Binding SIDs at all=
. 


 


=46rom my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported wi=
th SRv6 or SRv6+, a Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted..


 


Did I miss something here?=



 


Your timely feedback would be highly a=
ppreciated.


 




Regards, and lots of thanks in advance=
,


Sasha


 


Office: +972-39266302


Cell:      +9=
72-549266302


Email:  
Alexander.Vainshtein@eci=
tele.com




 






From: spring <s=
pring-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Nick Hilliard

Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM

To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.c=
om>

Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf=
.org>;
6man@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.






 


Rob,



Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate fo=
r draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further unle=
ss the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing required c=
an be satisfied in a way that
 works within the constraints that the operational community operates within=
.



If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from the=
 global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then the=
 authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortable c=
hanging their allocation policies
 to accommodate this.



Nick










1 September 2019 at 22:10









Hi Fernando,



6man participants should look at the following:



- 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 (In particular, Sections 4 and 5)

- 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usi=
d-02



Ron





Juniper Business Use Only



-----Original Message-----

From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6ne=
tworks.com>

Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM

To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.ne=
t>; Rob Shakir
<robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG L=
ist 
<spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org<=
/a>

Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.



Hi, Ron,



For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you pl=
ease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of

RFC8200 or RFC4291"?



In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), s=
o I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what.
=



Thanks!



Cheers,

Fernando










--

Fernando Gont

SI6 Networks

e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492







--------------------------------------------------------------------

IETF IPv6 working group mailing list

ipv6@ietf.org

Administrative Requests: 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6

--------------------------------------------------------------------<=
o:p>












31 August 2019 at 21:53










Hi, Ron,



For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could

you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of
=

RFC8200 or RFC4291"?



In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly

RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the

same, or what.



Thanks!



Cheers,

Fernando






 












31 August 2019 at 21:33








Rob,


 


The following are arguments for procee=
ding with SRv6+:


 


    

  • 
Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists
  • 
Operational Simplicity
  • 
SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6


 


Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lis=
ts


--------------------------------------=
--------------


 


SR customers have stated a firm requir=
ement to support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. They have also stat=
ed a requirement for implementations
 to forward at line speed  and without consuming excessive overhead ban=
dwidth.


 


SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-se=
gment-routing-header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In order to support=
 an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 would
 require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at line=
 speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.


 


Therefore, one of the four solutions &=
nbsp;that you mention below is required to make SRv6 deployable. While draft=
-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is close
 to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally matur=
e and should be given equal consideration.


 


The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, d=
raft-li and draft-mirsky.


 


Operational Simplicity


-----------------------------


Network operators strive for operation=
al simplicity. By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bending) the requireme=
nts of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6
 introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The f=
ollowing are architectural quirks of  draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-h=
eader:


 


    

  • 
The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Therefo=
re, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the least-cost p=
ath from source to destination
  • 
The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
    • =

  • 
The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and how it i=
s processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains one local=
ly instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular way, whi=
le if the IPv6 destination address
 contains another locally instantiated value, the SRH might be totally inval=
id.


 


Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-program=
ming  promises more architectural quirks. For example:


 


    

  • 
Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers=

  • 
An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
  • 
IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Header Fie=
ld in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is fo=
llowed by Ethernet payload.


 


Other emerging drafts promise still mo=
re architectural quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, imp=
lementations need to examine the SRH
 even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overlo=
aded to carry OAM as well as routing information.


 


Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net=
-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires network operators to obtain address space a=
nd number their networks in a particular
 way to make routing work.


 


SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work=



--------------------------------------------=
------------


SRv6+  has been implemented on LI=
NUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Implementation experience demonstrate=
s that specification is fairly complete.
 For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=E2=80=99s just I=
Pv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.


 


Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications a=
dhere to a strict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress th=
rough the working group, they won=E2=80=99t
 need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when stretc=
hing the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as RFC 820=
0.


 


       &=
nbsp;            =
;            &nb=
sp;            &=
nbsp;            =
;            &nb=
sp;            &=
nbsp;            =
;      Thanks,


      &n=
bsp;            =
            &nbs=
p;             &=
nbsp;            =
;            &nb=
sp;            &=
nbsp;            =
;          Ron=



 


 


 


 


 


 


From:
spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Rob Shakir

Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM

To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf=
.org>

Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.


 






Hi SPRING WG,


 


Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has d=
eveloped Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing fo=
r both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6)
 data planes.. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=



 


These encapsulations are past WG last=
 call (in IESG or RFC Editor).


 


During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 1=
05, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the SID f=
or IPv6 dataplane:



 


During the IETF week, two additional d=
rafts have been proposed:



 


As we expressed during the meeting, i=
t is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional encapsul=
ations are. Thus, we think it is important
 that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements f=
or a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective of o=
perators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of the=
 software/hardware implementation.


 


Therefore, we would like to solicit n=
etwork operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly introd=
uce their:


    

  • 
use case (e.g. Fast=
 Reroute, explicit routing/TE)
  • 
forwarding performa=
nce and scaling requirements


    

      

    • 
e.g., (number of no=
des, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the l=
atter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SI=
Ds as the number would typically be different
 (*).
    



    

  • 
if the existing SRv=
6 approach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requirem=
ent of a different solution is required and whether this solution is needed f=
or the short term only or for the long term.


 


As well as deployment limitations, we=
 would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limitation=
s that they are seeing which limit the deployment
 of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs which=
 can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would impr=
ove the deployments .


 


For both of these sets of feedback if=
 possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot be s=
hared publicly, please send it directly to
 the chairs & AD (Martin).


 


This call for information will run fo=
r four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING chai=
rs via
spring-chairs@ietf.org
and ADs=
 via 
spring-ads@ietf.org.. 


 


Thank you,


-- Rob & Bruno<=
/p>

 


(*) As expressed on the mailing list,=
 a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency SID h=
ence less SID may be required.


 


 



Juniper Business Use Only=







 




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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 05:57:55 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463EC3250F2A303A3641839AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inline..... Juniper Business Use Only From: Zafar Ali (zali) Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 1:42 AM To: Srihari Sangli ; Tarek Saad ;= Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG= List ; 6man@ietf.org Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Srihari, > DA manipulation along the hop (shifting as the draft proposes) on each ro= uter and reconstructing the DA - can make it harder to debug when > there is problem. It has been clarified during the Spring WG session in Montreal. Repeating t= he same - * The original segment list is maintained by using the non-Reduced flav= or (in which case the SID list is fully preserved in the SRH). [RB] At the cost of encoding efficiency. 50% decrease !! In reality, debugability is a huge issue in CRH proposal. [RB] In reality, the debuggability characteristics of SRv6+ are very simila= r to those of SR-MPLS. We have the same mapping from a short identifier (SR= v6+ SID or SR-MPLS Label) to an IPv6 address. [RB] So, would you like to argue that debuggability is a huge issue in SR-M= PLS? Ron For example, the CRH requires an IPv6 address to the "labels" mapping table (Yuck!). An operator cannot determine the path packet will take by looking at CRH. Have you realized how painful it will be for the operator to: * Walk the CRH, * Map each per-node "local labels" to its associated IPv6 address, * Repeat the process for the entire label chain encoded in CRH. Not to mention, this requires the operators to get the "mapping table" from= each node in the network. Thanks Regards ... Zafar --_000_BYAPR05MB5463EC3250F2A303A3641839AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Inline…..

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>=
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 1:42 AM
To: Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net>; Tarek Saad <tsaad= .net@gmail.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <= robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org=
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

<snip>

 

Hi Srihari,

 

> DA manipulation alon= g the hop (shifting as the draft proposes) on each router and reconstructin= g the DA - can make it harder to debug when

        &nbs= p;     > there is problem.

=  

= It has been clarified during the Spring WG session in Montreal. Repeating t= he same –

=  

  • The original segment list is maintained by using the non-Reduced f= lavor (in which case the SID list is fully preserved in the SRH). 

 

[RB] At the cost of encoding efficiency. 50% decreas= e !!

=  

In reality, debugabili= ty is a huge issue in CRH proposal. 

 

[RB] In reality, the debuggability characteristics o= f SRv6+ are very similar to those of SR-MPLS. We have the same mapping = from a short identifier (SRv6+ SID or SR-MPLS Label) to an IPv6 address= .

 

[RB] So, would you like to argue that debuggability = is a huge issue in SR-MPLS?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   Ron

 

 

For example, 

the CRH requires an IP= v6 address to the “labels” mapping table (Yuck!). 

An operator cannot det= ermine the path packet will take by looking at CRH.

Have you realized how = painful it will be for the operator to: 

  • Wal= k the CRH, 
  • Map each per-node "local labels" to = its associated IPv6 address,  
  • Repeat the process for= the entire label chain encoded in CRH.

Not to mention, this r= equires the operators to get the "mapping table" from each node i= n the network. 

=  

= Thanks

=  

= Regards … Zafar

=  

= <snip>

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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 06:20:10 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463B35403A97D4AE8F134C9AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Consider what a simple TRACEROUTE over the SR path would reveal. If you wan= ted to get really fancy, consider traceroute with RFC 5837 extensions. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Zafar Ali (zali) Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 2:13 AM To: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; SPRING= WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Ron, > For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It's just IPv6 a= nd IPv6 OAM just works. Really? How can you perform all OAM functions on a system that is based on a "label= mapping table" using standard IPv6 OAM? If service provider has an issue with a (remote) mapping table, how would t= he provider debug it using the standard IPv6 OAM? Recall, IPv6 never had such "label mapping table" and hence never had to wo= rry about debugging issues with the "label mapping table" --_000_BYAPR05MB5463B35403A97D4AE8F134C9AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Consider what a simple TRACEROUTE over the SR path w= ould reveal. If you wanted to get really fancy, consider traceroute with RF= C 5837 extensions.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =            Ron<= /o:p>

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>=
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 2:13 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@goo= gle.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi Ron,

 

<snip>

 

> For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ = OAM document. It’s just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.

 

Really?

How can you perform all OAM functions on a system tha= t is based on a “label mapping table” using standard IPv6 OAM?

If service provider has an issue with a (remote) mapp= ing table, how would the provider debug it using the standard IPv6 OAM?

Recall, IPv6 never had such “label mapping tabl= e” and hence never had to worry about debugging issues with the ̶= 0;label mapping table”

 

=  

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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 06:23:07 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB54637D3761C4BCC2B452241FAEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ali, Nothing so complicated is required. At most, PING and TRACEROUTE with RFC 5= 837 extensions. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Zafar Ali (zali) Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 2:18 AM To: Ron Bonica ; Srihari Sangli ;= Tarek Saad ; Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG= List ; 6man@ietf.org Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Ron, Please see in-line. Thanks Regards ... Zafar From: Ron Bonica > Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:57 AM To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" >, Srihari San= gli >, Tarek Saad >, Rob Shakir >, SPRING WG List >, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Inline..... Juniper Business Use Only From: Zafar Ali (zali) > Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 1:42 AM To: Srihari Sangli >; Tarek= Saad >; Ron Bonica >; Rob Shakir >; SPRING WG List >; 6man@ietf.org Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Srihari, > DA manipulation along the hop (shifting as the draft proposes) on each ro= uter and reconstructing the DA - can make it harder to debug when > there is problem. It has been clarified during the Spring WG session in Montreal. Repeating t= he same - * The original segment list is maintained by using the non-Reduced flav= or (in which case the SID list is fully preserved in the SRH). [RB] At the cost of encoding efficiency. 50% decrease !! In reality, debugability is a huge issue in CRH proposal. [RB] In reality, the debuggability characteristics of SRv6+ are very simila= r to those of SR-MPLS. We have the same mapping from a short identifier (SR= v6+ SID or SR-MPLS Label) to an IPv6 address. [RB] So, would you like to argue that debuggability is a huge issue in SR-M= PLS? [ZA] Not at all. SR-MPLS uses MPLS OAM tool kit defined in https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/rfc8029. [ZA] Are you suggesting you will introduce something similar to RFC8029? Ron For example, the CRH requires an IPv6 address to the "labels" mapping table (Yuck!). An operator cannot determine the path packet will take by looking at CRH. Have you realized how painful it will be for the operator to: * Walk the CRH, * Map each per-node "local labels" to its associated IPv6 address, * Repeat the process for the entire label chain encoded in CRH. Not to mention, this requires the operators to get the "mapping table" from= each node in the network. Thanks Regards ... Zafar --_000_BYAPR05MB54637D3761C4BCC2B452241FAEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ali,

 

Nothing so complicated is required. At most, PING an= d TRACEROUTE with RFC 5837 extensions.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>=
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 2:18 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Srihari Sangli <ssang= li@juniper.net>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>; Rob Shakir <= robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org=
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi Ron,

 

Please see in-line.

 

Thanks

 

Regards … Zafar

 

From= : Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 1:57 AM
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net>, Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org&= gt;, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Inline…..

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 1:42 AM
To: Srihari Sangli <ssangl= i@juniper.net>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org&= gt;; 6man@ietf.org
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisc= o.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

<snip>

 

Hi Srihari,

 

> DA manipulation alon= g the hop (shifting as the draft proposes) on each router and reconstructin= g the DA - can make it harder to debug when

        &nbs= p;     > there is problem.

=  

= It has been clarified during the Spring WG session in Montreal. Repeating t= he same –

=  

  • The original segment list is maintained by using the non-Reduced f= lavor (in which case the SID list is fully preserved in the SRH). 

 

[RB] At the cost of encoding efficiency. 50% decreas= e !!

=  

In reality, debugabili= ty is a huge issue in CRH proposal. 

 

[RB] In reality, the debuggability characteristics o= f SRv6+ are very similar to those of SR-MPLS. We have the same mapping = from a short identifier (SRv6+ SID or SR-MPLS Label) to an IPv6 address= .

 

[RB] So, would you like to argue that debuggability = is a huge issue in SR-MPLS?

 

[ZA] Not at all. SR-MPLS uses MPLS OAM tool kit defi= ned in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8029.

[ZA] Are you suggesting you will introduce something= similar to RFC8029?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   Ron

 

 

For example, 

the CRH requires an IP= v6 address to the “labels” mapping table (Yuck!). <= o:p>

An operator cannot det= ermine the path packet will take by looking at CRH.

Have you realized how = painful it will be for the operator to: 

  • Wal= k the CRH, 
  • Map each per-node "local labels" to = its associated IPv6 address,  
  • Repeat the process for= the entire label chain encoded in CRH.

Not to mention, this r= equires the operators to get the "mapping table" from each node i= n the network. 

=  

= Thanks

=  

= Regards … Zafar

=  

= <snip>

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Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:34:14 +0000 From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: Ron Bonica , Srihari Sangli , Tarek Saad , Rob Shakir , "SPRING WG List" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> CC: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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Sep 5 23:41:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4F68120142; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 23:41:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PGqvuqHPs0UM; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 23:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4217112002E; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 23:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by bizet.nethelp.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7339EE6079; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:41:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 08:41:32 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20190906.084132.330516044.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org Cc: spring@ietf.org, 6man@ietf.org From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE1F5C-A886-4B06-8B97-D0645CFFE5E2@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 26 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 06:41:37 -0000 > Nothing so complicated is required. At most, PING and TRACEROUTE with RFC 5837 extensions. Are there any vendors actually implementing RFC 5837? Ivan Pepelnjak commented "However, it looks like nobody implemented it in almost five years since it was published." at https://blog.ipspace.net/2016/01/are-unnumbered-interfaces-harmful.html Has the situation changed? 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Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:51:10 +0000 From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: "sthaug@nethelp.no" , "rbonica=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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TWFwIGVhY2ggcGVyLW5vZGUgImxvY2FsIGxhYmVscyIgdG8gaXRzIGFzc29jaWF0ZWQgSVB2NiBh ZGRyZXNzLMKgwqANCuKAoiBSZXBlYXQgdGhlIHByb2Nlc3MgZm9yIHRoZSBlbnRpcmUgbGFiZWwg Y2hhaW4gZW5jb2RlZCBpbiBDUkguDQpOb3QgdG8gbWVudGlvbiwgdGhpcyByZXF1aXJlcyB0aGUg b3BlcmF0b3JzIHRvIGdldCB0aGUgIm1hcHBpbmcgdGFibGUiIGZyb20gZWFjaCBub2RlIGluIHRo ZSBuZXR3b3JrLsKgDQrCoA0KVGhhbmtzDQrCoA0KUmVnYXJkcyDigKYgWmFmYXIgDQrCoA0KPHNu aXA+IA0K From nobody Fri Sep 6 01:01:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF54B120B58 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c9PzslXOFYjm for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DA13120B4B for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id f13so4779509qkm.9 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 01:01:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pzLO8eUy+Pbdn7wSW/+EmagYcDwVIgddDWH+rRjKpS8=; b=b6LXrE52MRvvwizthAElgRiSi49GDzEMlesuESGlG9fx7K8VXJmKMkdLbMKqh2bLLw 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxiRye6OY2FXUGjZ51lAGk3isaUVxM+F88eMtCpaQB7lMPkGlDcAYxm8KZ+CSLd0QxLVUrG4AKW5iyWQmpaAMY= X-Received: by 2002:a37:2784:: with SMTP id n126mr7130181qkn.302.1567756876325; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 01:01:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <9CCE1F5C-A886-4B06-8B97-D0645CFFE5E2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:01:05 +0200 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Ron Bonica , Srihari Sangli , Tarek Saad , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b537660591ddd706" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 08:01:24 -0000 --000000000000b537660591ddd706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Andrew, I can say that I may even agree with some of your points. But one question I asked which no one responded still stands ... SRv6+ is almost identical to SR-MPLS with IP transport between segment nodes. Both require mapping, both require changes to OAM, both require IGP extensions, both can use the same forwarding hardware and logic, both require almost identical operation etc .... As you know even main author of SRv6+ agrees with all of this in the notes sent to the list. So please help me to understand why entire industry who wants to be good IETF citizen and Industry player should now invest a lot of resources in development, testing, shipping and support of a solution which is just a poor mirror of something which is already available ? Yes some folks were allergic to MPLS in the past and some are still allergic to MPLS. But as someone who have worked since Tag Switching early days on that piece of technology let me tell you that vast majority of those folks do not even understand the difference between MPLS used for transport and MPLS used as forwarding demux for the applications. They just treat it the very same way like an evil or devil protocol which does nothing else other then demonstrate their complete ignorance of the subject. Yes MPLS to be used as a transport is a mistake. It was not a mistake in the past as when we rolled out services which required encapsulation most platforms in the field just could not do line rate IP encapsulation. But those days are gone. If in 1998 time frame routers could do IPv4 in IPv4 encap MPLS as a transport would have never succeeded. Then of course there was more mistakes TDP later by IETF collaboration became LDP was a mapping protocol - yes another mistake instead of making up front domain wide labels and extended IGPs and BGP for that. Well the thought was that working on single protocol will be easier then extending ISIS, OSPFv2 (and v3 on the radar), RIPv2, EIGRP. But this is MPLS transport which in spite of little group of folks still selling it around believe it or not it is going away. But nothing is wrong about using 20 bit labels as demux for applications and services. Packet carry bits. Nowhere in the packet even if you decode it carefully it says "I am MPLS" ... forwarding on the boxes also uses bit lookup and if you ask your vendor they can paint it and abstract all the MPLS legacy in the CLI for you so you never see it. Bottom line is that I see no reason at all to adopt a solution which walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and only carries a label "I am not a duck" Best, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 9:04 AM Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > Zafar, > > One of the things I keep seeing below is you referring to the operators > perspective. So - as someone who actually is from an operator - and has > done substantial testing of the proposed solution let me give you the > perspective of an operator. > > Firstly - as an operator - on the table mapping - I've seen absolutely no > problem with this - particularly if I add bgp crh signaling which lets me > build a mapping table that can be understood in multiple systems which do > not necessarily need to know about the rest of the network (this is > particularly useful on inline DPI systems and other such things) > Secondly - as an operator - the segregation between what is an address and > how said address is directed - rather than a constant change in the address > to us seems far safer. In the uSID draft, a leak of a more specific prefix > in the network because of finger trouble - can fundamentally break routing > - and well, that could be rather interesting to start debugging. > Thirdly - as an operator - without retaining the uncompressed list of > SID's in the header, I have a debugging nightmare - and zero ability to > figure out packet pathing through the network at intermediary points - and > you keep saying that this is addressed by retaining the full SID list - but > - if I do that - can you explain to me what the point of the micro sid is - > since - I was under the impression that the point was to remove the > overhead - the moment I take this approach - how am I not back at square > one with the same overhead? > Forth - as an operator - I am deeply uncomfortable with the fact that the > proposal fundamentally redefines the semantics of the address with > potential unintended consequences - and despite the fact that multiple > times I have raised the redefinition of the semantics of the address when > compared against RFC4291 - I have yet to see this addressed > Fifth - as an operator - I have concerns about the inflation of the IGP, > and this was raised in Montreal. I was told that this could be addressed > by renumbering my network - sorry - I hardly view this as viable > Sixth - as an operator that has to apply for space from the RIR's - and > has concerns about address space utilization - a request was made in > Montreal for an evaluation of actual address space required by this > solution - which as of yet has not been forthcoming. However, when looking > closely, I'm pretty sure we can figure out how much space this is. To this > end, as per Nick Hilliards suggestion, perhaps we should approach the RIR's > about allocation policies to seek the viewpoints from them as the > allocators of space. I am even willing to take this on, and prepared to > put a global policy into the RIR system through all 5 RIR's to change the > allocation policies to cater for this once I have a firmer grasp on h ow > much address space will be utilized. At that point we can see what the > appetite is from that perspective. (In fact some prelim work on such a > policy proposal has already begun) > > Thanks > Andrew > --000000000000b537660591ddd706 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andrew,

I can say t= hat I may even agree with some of your points. But one question I asked whi= ch no one responded still stands ...=C2=A0

SRv6+ i= s almost identical to SR-MPLS with IP transport between segment nodes. Both= require mapping, both require changes to OAM, both require IGP extensions,= both can use the same forwarding hardware and logic, both require almost i= dentical operation etc .... As you know even main author of SRv6+ agrees wi= th all of this in the notes sent to the list.=C2=A0

So please help me to understand why entire industry who wants to be good = IETF citizen and Industry player should now invest a lot of resources in de= velopment, testing, shipping and support of a solution which is just a poor= mirror of something which is already available ?=C2=A0

Yes some folks were allergic to MPLS in the past and some are still a= llergic to MPLS. But as someone who have worked since Tag Switching early d= ays on that piece of technology let me tell you that vast majority of those= folks do not even understand the difference between MPLS used for transpor= t and MPLS used as forwarding demux for the applications. They just treat i= t the very same way like an evil or devil protocol which does nothing else = other then demonstrate their complete ignorance of the subject.=C2=A0
=

Yes MPLS to be used as a transport is a mistake. It was= not a mistake in the past as when we rolled out services which required en= capsulation most platforms in the field just could not do line rate IP enca= psulation. But those days are gone. If in 1998 time frame routers could do = IPv4 in IPv4 encap MPLS as a transport would have never succeeded.=C2=A0

Then of course there was more mistakes TDP later by = IETF collaboration became LDP was a mapping protocol - yes another mistake = instead of making up front domain wide labels and extended IGPs and BGP for= that. Well the thought was that working on single protocol will be easier = then extending ISIS, OSPFv2 (and v3 on the radar), RIPv2, EIGRP.=C2=A0

But this is MPLS transport which in spite of little gr= oup of folks still selling it around believe it or not it is going away.=C2= =A0

But nothing is wrong about using 20 bit labels= as demux for applications and services. Packet carry bits. Nowhere in the = packet even if you decode it carefully it says "I am MPLS" ... fo= rwarding on the boxes also uses bit lookup and if you ask your vendor they = can paint it and abstract all the MPLS legacy in the CLI for you so you nev= er see it.=C2=A0

Bottom line is that I see no reas= on at all to adopt a solution which=C2=A0walks like a duck, quacks like a d= uck and only carries a label "I am not a duck"

Best,
R.


On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 9:04 A= M Andrew Alston <Andr= ew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
Zafar,

One of the things I keep seeing below is you referring to the operators per= spective.=C2=A0 So - as someone who actually is from an operator - and has = done substantial testing of the proposed solution let me give you the persp= ective of an operator.

Firstly - as an operator - on the table mapping - I've seen absolutely = no problem with this - particularly if I add bgp crh signaling which lets m= e build a mapping table that can be understood in multiple systems which do= not necessarily need to know about the rest of the network (this is partic= ularly useful on inline DPI systems and other such things)
Secondly - as an operator - the segregation between what is an address and = how said address is directed - rather than a constant change in the address= to us seems far safer.=C2=A0 In the uSID draft, a leak of a more specific = prefix in the network because of finger trouble - can fundamentally break r= outing - and well, that could be rather interesting to start debugging.
Thirdly - as an operator - without retaining the uncompressed list of SID&#= 39;s in the header, I have a debugging nightmare - and zero ability to figu= re out packet pathing through the network at intermediary points - and you = keep saying that this is addressed by retaining the full SID list - but - i= f I do that - can you explain to me what the point of the micro sid is - si= nce - I was under the impression that the point was to remove the overhead = - the moment I take this approach - how am I not back at square one with th= e same overhead?
Forth - as an operator - I am deeply uncomfortable with the fact that the p= roposal fundamentally redefines the semantics of the address with potential= unintended consequences - and despite the fact that multiple times I have = raised the redefinition of the semantics of the address when compared again= st RFC4291 - I have yet to see this addressed
Fifth - as an operator - I have concerns about the inflation of the IGP, an= d this was raised in Montreal.=C2=A0 I was told that this could be addresse= d by renumbering my network - sorry - I hardly view this as viable
Sixth - as an operator that has to apply for space from the RIR's - and= has concerns about address space utilization - a request was made in Montr= eal for an evaluation of actual address space required by this solution - w= hich as of yet has not been forthcoming.=C2=A0 However, when looking closel= y, I'm pretty sure we can figure out how much space this is.=C2=A0 To t= his end, as per Nick Hilliards suggestion, perhaps we should approach the R= IR's about allocation policies to seek the viewpoints from them as the = allocators of space.=C2=A0 I am even willing to take this on, and prepared = to put a global policy into the RIR system through all 5 RIR's to chang= e the allocation policies to cater for this once I have a firmer grasp on h= ow much address space will be utilized.=C2=A0 At that point we can see wha= t the appetite is from that perspective. (In fact some prelim work on such = a policy proposal has already begun)

Thanks
Andrew
--000000000000b537660591ddd706-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 01:18:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1BD12008F; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:18:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wFE0Z7YetDNh; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com (mail-pf1-x432.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F7B812001E; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id w22so3868537pfi.9; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 01:18:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YTVOdlGamwp4DYEhj6OIa/jBGMp+vBFDcEq6Y939LZQ=; b=EKQAiiB/ZIr8kM63iyeujq2eqqJymL5UGqMsaogEsuVso7s8xDgGdIB/Aw2CBQcAHN tCF0keVQEeauYWbaf4GZi/Lb49ndCc7w8NS3/l1JhdZBGBCH9CSKPqj8TY4AiOe+Ju9t AZNxzSir4Ml3x7Hbj92FKA8ObdEZ0fa+WyFe291g6zPhrxONrlUdRMiGsfI7RRlnopBk WnPL4GRwmsAins0leIXxy2OyLdYk3UpAj91/TefCQgfiJ8pS7DqDHj6obeVPG4YewQiF uIEPAnjH+KhzuDbdq7EKRU6+Blp5PUoCUqvh5avwQiACjjsIPbk8KwaUycm2RorCrX8u 7VGA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YTVOdlGamwp4DYEhj6OIa/jBGMp+vBFDcEq6Y939LZQ=; b=VR+DMWW/nruk1dPKIP1V8QPLlMb5a+s0U5dUQcEtr5u2A2lX4OW3UZWqh9zMuUs8qy AmZaWvYaQC+7B7Fva7OuNs00MAHsn0L8ZuzYG+S2IM0mVQWblhEu6TXBn6UB4OBOe4uS OL1TYwJmCrjXdDUvfLPUayV5eh9Pk/Mwb4+wKSPDnnrssnZ+VlO54lgPqOoOmCgWxWIN p4dDkTTkdUu2123yc9BzlwfzYE0GHFxK93clIMHQl1eO1z3KsJ/mJN337i3nyNcnCSB1 jbMeetJoQKOEex+YbOYDdWD/zNSi/vm47Hpx9y0ft4cww0fZbIGh0DKDqoJKGfJ9175/ AAYg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVgsh4vUkvur1Je3mIZqPrGzV9ubDVRmgCpkShLmlwsuCqnIsX4 bm9QFPjUmB+MEPabZxMPmjBmUjsWj+oEkeBmiYY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzAjZKK7/Tz0hjKaZvYyds2cctI8yoFYq46c7QVQUQGKcRtQmx2IHu6GgTSWVlG+fEaEeMfEXPmbmM+m9pD1cg= X-Received: by 2002:a63:711c:: with SMTP id m28mr6749122pgc.396.1567757890312; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 01:18:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:17:59 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000255ef10591de1495" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 08:18:13 -0000 --000000000000255ef10591de1495 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Ron, > They remind us that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming are far from maturity. To me it actually highlights something quite contrary. It is that some folks are pretty far from appreciating or even grasping the value of the proposal. In your other note you have extensively elaborated well on how to effectively kill innovation in IETF. If we would be following your advice there would be almost non documents which build on former work and update former work. But most importantly documenting something does not force anyone to actually use it if they choose so. This entire smoke about header insertion from what I have been told has some technical concerns about real source awareness about say MTU issues. Well for one if I am doing insertion in my network I better make sure I do not drop the packet based on the MTU. It is so basic ... of course I must clean up when I fwd the packet to other domain but this is basic network hygiene. In the same time folks are happy to encap + add EHs, DOs etc ... on the grounds that src of the encap will be in the packet. Is this sufficient .. even if ICMP is sent to such src (domian ingress) I bet such domain ingress will not notify the original packet src anyway. And with encap the packet gets much bigger anyway. But I was not part of v6 creators and I think I will keep it that way based on that little thread we had here :) Best, R. --000000000000255ef10591de1495 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,

> They = remind us that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming are far from maturity.=C2=A0=

To me it actually hig= hlights something quite contrary. It is that some folks are pretty far from= appreciating or even grasping the value of the proposal.=C2=A0

In your other note you have exten= sively elaborated well on how to effectively kill innovation in IETF. If we= would be following your advice there would be almost non documents which b= uild on former work and update former work.=C2=A0
<= br>
But most importantly documenting something does= not force anyone to actually use it if they choose so. This entire smoke a= bout header insertion from what I have been told has some technical concern= s about real source awareness about say MTU issues. Well for one if I am do= ing insertion in my network I better make sure I do not drop the packet bas= ed on the MTU. It is so basic ... of course I must clean up when I fwd the = packet to other domain but this is basic network hygiene.=C2=A0

In the same time folks are happy = to encap=C2=A0+ add EHs, DOs etc ... on the grounds that src of the encap w= ill be in the packet. Is this sufficient .. even if ICMP is sent to such sr= c (domian ingress) I bet such domain ingress will not notify the original p= acket src anyway. And with encap the packet gets much bigger anyway.=C2=A0<= /div>

But I was not part of = v6 creators and I think I will keep it that way based on that little thread= we had here :)=C2=A0

= Best,
R.

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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68F0112001E for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur02lp2052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.5.52]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-223-iCrdcGVKMhqqeOTcnHyeow-1; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 09:27:24 +0100 Received: from VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.112.208) by VE1PR03MB5408.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.112.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2220.19; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:27:22 +0000 Received: from VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c456:2d7a:c516:486c]) by VE1PR03MB5422.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c456:2d7a:c516:486c%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2199.027; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:27:22 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica CC: Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Question about SRv6 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header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id csI0KZ2tYbPM for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B97D120099 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id i78so4845574qke.11 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 01:37:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dZVPvcZtmrrQTZWumtJ5QHoZrBnDBkGgpS50Yr6YEwE=; b=GxGlAVO4yc8GeqLiX5HSj3LRZVpTFbCFXTW6Jp9b4eZWJh8JT26RzsP8lYdrF41IQ7 hBrnT8jpmaz0Or2cJKRspgZpxjc5z+RBXQbiX3xVSTzgpxcaGd14EBpr1+9JxmvRgT+O 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APXvYqxALf4brGWPr0JVx91hw2vlFoCG0CgT+0OwGUNOqO/KwiJC6iYtYvvTqHPde3XdiPda5XbGVnQgJdMXgqSvEAc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a7c5:: with SMTP id q188mr5630243qke.445.1567759019342; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 01:36:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:36:49 +0200 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000710e090591de5749" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 08:37:03 -0000 --000000000000710e090591de5749 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > what the current drafts do =E2=80=93 is fundamentally rewrite the ipv6 pr= otocol I think you are giving small team of focused engineers way too much credit here :) What they tried to do is to merely make sure that if someone decides to use IPv6 they have a chance to not only have functional parity with other transports, but also could go a bit forward and turn v6 transport into more innovation. In that respect objectives of both SRv6 and SRv6+ are identical. Now having seen stones being smashed at those who try to actually improve IPv6 I am personally even more discouraged. It is now becoming even more obvious why adoption of IPv6 in enterprise networks, enterprise compute clusters or end users is so marginal after 25+ years .... Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:27 AM Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > Robert, my problem here is =E2=80=93 I believe that there could have been= common > ground found between various proposals except =E2=80=93 what the current = drafts do > =E2=80=93 is fundamentally rewrite the ipv6 protocol =E2=80=93 the change= s in the address > semantics (twice over in incompatible ways between the programming draft > and the uSID draft) =E2=80=93 the violations of rfc8200 =E2=80=93 etc =E2= =80=93 mean that =E2=80=93 it > becomes very hard to find a solution when there is a massive philosophica= l > difference =E2=80=93 where the philosophical difference is routed in =E2= =80=93 a v6 address > is a 128bit identifier as defined by rfc4291 =E2=80=93 vs =E2=80=93 an ad= dress is well =E2=80=93 > insert a long list of other things on top of that. > > > > We spent the better part of 25 years getting IPv6 to what it is =E2=80= =93 and now > =E2=80=93 fundamentally =E2=80=93 there is an attempt to rewrite the very= thing that IPv6 > is =E2=80=93 and therein lies one of my major problems =E2=80=93 and no m= atter how many > times I have raised the semantic issues =E2=80=93 it seems to be an issue= that is > being blindly ignored. > > > > Tell me =E2=80=93 how do you do aggregation of addresses in the network > programming draft =E2=80=93 aggregate =E2=80=93 lose the function bits > > How do you do uSID in the network programming draft =E2=80=93 shift =E2= =80=93 lose the > function bits =E2=80=93 or =E2=80=93 retain the entire stack =E2=80=93 an= d lose the entire point of > uSID in the first place =E2=80=93 to solve the overhead > > By rewriting the IPv6 specification in the way this does =E2=80=93 it int= roduces > draft after draft to cater for what is essentially no longer IPv6 =E2=80= =93 vs =E2=80=93 > finding a way to work within the IPv6 specification to produce the same > functionality as is required in a compatible manner that is more efficien= t. > > > > Therein I believe lies half the root of this =E2=80=93 on one side =E2=80= =93 you have an > attempt to redefine an entire protocol that was 25 years in the making in > the image of what one group of people believe it should be =E2=80=93 on t= he other > side =E2=80=93 you have an acknowledgement of required functionality =E2= =80=93 and an > attempt to provide it while not rewriting the entire protocol in the > process. > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* ipv6 *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Friday, 6 September 2019 11:18 > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* Fernando Gont ; spring@ietf.org; > 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function > > > > Ron, > > > > > They remind us that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming are far from > maturity. > > > > To me it actually highlights something quite contrary. It is that some > folks are pretty far from appreciating or even grasping the value of the > proposal. > > > > In your other note you have extensively elaborated well on how to > effectively kill innovation in IETF. If we would be following your advice > there would be almost non documents which build on former work and update > former work. > > > > But most importantly documenting something does not force anyone to > actually use it if they choose so. This entire smoke about header inserti= on > from what I have been told has some technical concerns about real source > awareness about say MTU issues. Well for one if I am doing insertion in m= y > network I better make sure I do not drop the packet based on the MTU. It = is > so basic ... of course I must clean up when I fwd the packet to other > domain but this is basic network hygiene. > > > > In the same time folks are happy to encap + add EHs, DOs etc ... on the > grounds that src of the encap will be in the packet. Is this sufficient .= . > even if ICMP is sent to such src (domian ingress) I bet such domain ingre= ss > will not notify the original packet src anyway. And with encap the packet > gets much bigger anyway. > > > > But I was not part of v6 creators and I think I will keep it that way > based on that little thread we had here :) > > > > Best, > > R. > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000710e090591de5749 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> what the = current drafts do =E2=80=93 is fundamentally rewrite the ipv6 protocol=C2= =A0=C2=A0

I think you are giving small= team of focused engineers way too much credit here :)=C2=A0

What they tried to do is to merely make sure that i= f someone decides to use IPv6 they have a chance to not only have functiona= l parity with other transports, but also could go a bit forward and turn v6= transport into more innovation.=C2=A0

In that res= pect objectives of both SRv6 and SRv6+ are identical.=C2=A0

<= /div>
Now having seen stones being smashed at those who try to actually= improve IPv6 I am personally even more discouraged. It is now becoming eve= n more obvious why adoption of IPv6 in enterprise networks, enterprise comp= ute clusters or end users is so marginal after 25+ years ....=C2=A0

Cheers,
R.


On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:27 = AM Andrew Alston <And= rew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

Robert, my problem here is =E2= =80=93 I believe that there could have been common ground found between var= ious proposals except =E2=80=93 what the current drafts do =E2=80=93 is fun= damentally rewrite the ipv6 protocol =E2=80=93 the changes in the address semantics (twice over in inc= ompatible ways between the programming draft and the uSID draft) =E2=80=93 = the violations of rfc8200 =E2=80=93 etc =E2=80=93 mean that =E2=80=93 it be= comes very hard to find a solution when there is a massive philosophical difference =E2=80=93 where the philosophical difference is routed in =E2= =80=93 a v6 address is a 128bit identifier as defined by rfc4291 =E2=80=93 = vs =E2=80=93 an address is well =E2=80=93 insert a long list of other thing= s on top of that.

=C2=A0

We spent the better part of 25= =C2=A0 years getting IPv6 to what it is =E2=80=93 and now =E2=80=93 fundame= ntally =E2=80=93 there is an attempt to rewrite the very thing that IPv6 is= =E2=80=93 and therein lies one of my major problems =E2=80=93 and no matter how many times I have raised the semantic= issues =E2=80=93 it seems to be an issue that is being blindly ignored.=

=C2=A0

Tell me =E2=80=93 how do you do= aggregation of addresses in the network programming draft =E2=80=93 aggreg= ate =E2=80=93 lose the function bits

How do you do uSID in the netwo= rk programming draft =E2=80=93 shift =E2=80=93 lose the function bits =E2= =80=93 or =E2=80=93 retain the entire stack =E2=80=93 and lose the entire p= oint of uSID in the first place =E2=80=93 to solve the overhead

By rewriting the IPv6 specifica= tion in the way this does =E2=80=93 it introduces draft after draft to cate= r for what is essentially no longer IPv6 =E2=80=93 vs =E2=80=93 finding a w= ay to work within the IPv6 specification to produce the same functionality as is required in a compat= ible manner that is more efficient.

=C2=A0

Therein I believe lies half the= root of this =E2=80=93 on one side =E2=80=93 you have an attempt to redefi= ne an entire protocol that was 25 years in the making in the image of what = one group of people believe it should be =E2=80=93 on the other side =E2=80=93 you have an ack= nowledgement of required functionality =E2=80=93 and an attempt to provide = it while not rewriting the entire protocol in the process.

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Friday, 6 September 2019 11:18
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function<= /u>

=C2=A0

Ron,

=C2=A0

> They remind us that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming are = far from maturity.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

To me it actually highlights something quite contrary. It is that s= ome folks are pretty far from appreciating or even grasping the value of th= e proposal.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In your other note you have extensively elaborated well on how to e= ffectively kill innovation in IETF. If we would be following your advice th= ere would be almost non documents which build on former work and update former work.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But most importantly documenting something does not force anyone to= actually use it if they choose so. This entire smoke about header insertio= n from what I have been told has some technical concerns about real source awareness about say MTU issues. = Well for one if I am doing insertion in my network I better make sure I do = not drop the packet based on the MTU. It is so basic ... of course I must c= lean up when I fwd the packet to other domain but this is basic network hygiene.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

In the same time folks are happy to encap=C2=A0+ add EHs, DOs etc .= .. on the grounds that src of the encap will be in the packet. Is this suff= icient .. even if ICMP is sent to such src (domian ingress) I bet such domain ingress will not notify the origina= l packet src anyway. And with encap the packet gets much bigger anyway.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

But I was not part of v6 creators and I think I will keep it that w= ay based on that little thread we had here :)=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best,

R.

=C2=A0

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with ESMTPS id 2C3AD12001E; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id f19so2807362plr.3; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 01:51:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LZ53T4F3x1k+hWX8peHshfJMSSpslGAFTiJCFZspUAs=; b=kPyOZB+1WQ4NsGKZ2nATGiEB0HClkjJ28nFSxfpUBSUoPitERKPpPnEOCoEm+ZlrKZ 8VmtB6tpHNWopz7MEcWFGcL/ey7x0wC0Gc7PtnoOWebHtqMAKApCTmqvLUagfxTDWzco 1TyibfR7Enjt+7/fZJBA7WwNMg4A+l6dfpYD5NARbNqIkx5ml4DX+M0yoKcNYibcni6W CYpunfCshPA9XapirZS3E7ZH9uBAaCzxIXHrAJ6dURlrkNtpbbrf9WfZtUQJUSfB0uRW XtVQRBj/lu4JyRLwURGfHyF95Phj/I5yTdPL2UZpppW2S4TRuOhDhrq631vgyk+TFBsZ FEFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LZ53T4F3x1k+hWX8peHshfJMSSpslGAFTiJCFZspUAs=; b=Wj94FOndrcx30Ciiz7Eh49FYraXQvo6sq0N4vj31gbqmPnx3AOyDfnrpaazWoJZIr3 rNIr6jLQg8OdCpFOyNtgNQyaTFYPCSknE4Ok1FDc9huXCo6foCKqgt+k+1rxtOuDknjS gZU+msLCy1D1PD2aqeiIXM2iQ0V2tu+SqPqxqo9qSzflzl7YCduTeePfZhFkQsObc3fm bj6prN5Gtk0Jt7r6n17sWY3pIHfvcd2m6WfxAyPhLB5+mc44GGz0jk4zKLbhQSpVWWcj /b2VuFqU4H6v3hbsZDC2B3dIcyR0i49J2BYNY5l4NVMy6h7wUN3hnNNRHDGhr/utxHll GkOg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXP0pR8YBnFtb0VU9PaVIJGbYw7QVXh3rLv4uUjdJVZVLX2+18N Wa6mpV7BetML3vNMAn4GO0yiDx/wT6daqbyhtR8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzKXgFgDpH2CKNFtVYRjmHS7um/33fivXSIm+jioiA+3ijURcnlZwmhb0hfYaraVHNm4o/NdclwFcBtsyz3qXA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b110:: with SMTP id q16mr7847619plr.50.1567759910859; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 01:51:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <9CCE1F5C-A886-4B06-8B97-D0645CFFE5E2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:51:40 +0200 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000947c290591de8cb4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 08:51:56 -0000 --000000000000947c290591de8cb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > between those who want MPLS to die Again you are putting an equal sign between MPLS used for transport and MPLS used for application and services. While I know and agree that MPLS for transport should die - I have not met anyone who says MPLS for applications is a bad demux encoding. > for the technical problems behind CRH I pointed the need for mapping as architectural deficiency. But this is not the point. If next week there will be three more proposals of data plane encoding (XRH, ZRH & YRH) and each asking for new IGP & BGP control plane extensions for Segment Routing over v6 should IETF adopt all of them and should all vendors work and deliver all of them ? Is this what you think is in best interest of the industry ? Many thx, R, On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:40 AM Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > An Zafar =E2=80=93 I told by those words =E2=80=93 I am pragmatic though = as an operator. > I know that srv6 in some form or another is coming =E2=80=93 I stated as = much on > various blogs. I am not fool enough to believe that I am not going to be > forced into a situation where I am going to be made to run some variant o= f > this =E2=80=93 because I have been told very bluntly by certain vendors = that mpls > style development for v6 will cease at a control plane level =E2=80=93 an= d we are > already seeing situations where despite sr-mpls working just fine =E2=80= =93 certain > vendors have actively chosen to not support this with IPv6. > > > > That has put me in a position where I have to be pragmatic =E2=80=93 beca= use =E2=80=93 as > an operator with a massive network =E2=80=93 I have to be able to continu= e to well, > operate. That leaves me needing something that finds a common ground > between those who want MPLS to die =E2=80=93 and the MPLS usage which is = present, > real and necessary in the world in which I operate. That leaves me with > needing a version of SRv6 which is usable, does not impose insane overhea= d, > and does not fundamentally rewrite the IPv6 protocol. > > > > I have been extremely open and honest about this =E2=80=93 I will however= say =E2=80=93 > that the added functionality through the network programmability =E2=80= =93 all of > which is catered for in CRH without the need to rewrite the IPv6 > specification to do it =E2=80=93 does have other use cases =E2=80=93 and = hence =E2=80=93 CRH > actually works for us =E2=80=93 very very well =E2=80=93 because it retai= ns that which I > need =E2=80=93 while adding some really nice advantages on top of it. Bu= t again =E2=80=93 > we have asked =E2=80=93 multiple times =E2=80=93 for the technical proble= ms behind CRH =E2=80=93 > and the ringing in my ears is deafening from the silence. > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* Zafar Ali (zali) > *Sent:* Friday, 6 September 2019 11:28 > *To:* Robert Raszuk ; Andrew Alston < > Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> > *Cc:* Ron Bonica ; Srihari Sangli < > ssangli@juniper.net>; Tarek Saad ; Rob Shakir < > robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org; Zafar > Ali (zali) > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > I agree with Robert. > > CRH is nothing else than IPv6 over SR-MPLS. > > In the vast majority of the deployments (single SP domain), one can deplo= y > MPLS. > > In a minority of cases where some MPLS discontinuity in the domain could > exist, SR-MPLS over IP/UDP is an adopted and deployed solution. > > > > As you stated in your original response=E2=80=9D > > =E2=80=9CNow =E2=80=93 in that case SR-MPLS would have been just fine and= frankly > speaking =E2=80=93 we were entirely happy with pure SR-MPLS and I=E2=80= =99m on record > saying that I didn=E2=80=99t see much of a use case for SRv6 at all.=E2= =80=9D > > > > I can see why you liked CRH. > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > *From: *Robert Raszuk > *Date: *Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:01 AM > *To: *Andrew Alston > *Cc: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" , Ron Bonica , > Srihari Sangli , Tarek Saad , > Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , " > 6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > I can say that I may even agree with some of your points. But one questio= n > I asked which no one responded still stands ... > > > > SRv6+ is almost identical to SR-MPLS with IP transport between segment > nodes. Both require mapping, both require changes to OAM, both require IG= P > extensions, both can use the same forwarding hardware and logic, both > require almost identical operation etc .... As you know even main author = of > SRv6+ agrees with all of this in the notes sent to the list. > > > > So please help me to understand why entire industry who wants to be good > IETF citizen and Industry player should now invest a lot of resources in > development, testing, shipping and support of a solution which is just a > poor mirror of something which is already available ? > > > > Yes some folks were allergic to MPLS in the past and some are still > allergic to MPLS. But as someone who have worked since Tag Switching earl= y > days on that piece of technology let me tell you that vast majority of > those folks do not even understand the difference between MPLS used for > transport and MPLS used as forwarding demux for the applications. They ju= st > treat it the very same way like an evil or devil protocol which does > nothing else other then demonstrate their complete ignorance of the > subject. > > > > Yes MPLS to be used as a transport is a mistake. It was not a mistake in > the past as when we rolled out services which required encapsulation most > platforms in the field just could not do line rate IP encapsulation. But > those days are gone. If in 1998 time frame routers could do IPv4 in IPv4 > encap MPLS as a transport would have never succeeded. > > > > Then of course there was more mistakes TDP later by IETF collaboration > became LDP was a mapping protocol - yes another mistake instead of making > up front domain wide labels and extended IGPs and BGP for that. Well the > thought was that working on single protocol will be easier then extending > ISIS, OSPFv2 (and v3 on the radar), RIPv2, EIGRP. > > > > But this is MPLS transport which in spite of little group of folks still > selling it around believe it or not it is going away. > > > > But nothing is wrong about using 20 bit labels as demux for applications > and services. Packet carry bits. Nowhere in the packet even if you decode > it carefully it says "I am MPLS" ... forwarding on the boxes also uses bi= t > lookup and if you ask your vendor they can paint it and abstract all the > MPLS legacy in the CLI for you so you never see it. > > > > Bottom line is that I see no reason at all to adopt a solution which walk= s > like a duck, quacks like a duck and only carries a label "I am not a duck= " > > > > Best, > > R. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --000000000000947c290591de8cb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> between those who want MPLS to die=C2=A0=C2=A0<= br>

Again you are putt= ing an equal sign between MPLS used for transport and MPLS used for applica= tion and services. While I know and agree that MPLS for transport should di= e - I have not met anyone who says MPLS for applications is a bad demux enc= oding.=C2=A0

> for the technical proble= ms behind CRH=C2=A0=C2=A0

I pointed the need for mapping as architectural deficiency.= =C2=A0

But this is not= the point.=C2=A0

If n= ext week there will be three more proposals of data plane encoding (XRH, ZR= H & YRH) and each asking for new IGP & BGP control plane extensions= for Segment Routing over v6 should IETF adopt all of them and should all v= endors work and deliver all of them ? Is this what you think is in best int= erest of the industry ?=C2=A0

Many thx,
R,

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1= 0:40 AM Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

An Zafar =E2=80=93 I told by th= ose words =E2=80=93 I am pragmatic though as an operator.=C2=A0 I know that= srv6 in some form or another is coming =E2=80=93 I stated as much on vario= us blogs. I am not fool enough to believe that I am not going to be forced into a situation where I am go= ing to be made to run some variant of this =E2=80=93 because I=C2=A0 have b= een told very bluntly by certain vendors that mpls style development for v6= will cease at a control plane level =E2=80=93 and we are already seeing situations where despite sr-mpls working just fine =E2= =80=93 certain vendors have actively chosen to not support this with IPv6.<= u>

=C2=A0

That has put me in a position w= here I have to be pragmatic =E2=80=93 because =E2=80=93 as an operator with= a massive network =E2=80=93 I have to be able to continue to well, operate= .=C2=A0 That leaves me needing something that finds a common ground between those who want MPLS to die = =E2=80=93 and the MPLS usage which is present, real and necessary in the wo= rld in which I operate.=C2=A0 That leaves me with needing a version of SRv6= which is usable, does not impose insane overhead, and does not fundamentally rewrite the IPv6 protocol.=C2=A0 =

=C2=A0

I have been extremely open and = honest about this =E2=80=93 I will however say =E2=80=93 that the added fun= ctionality through the network programmability =E2=80=93 all of which is ca= tered for in CRH without the need to rewrite the IPv6 specification to do it =E2=80=93 does have ot= her use cases =E2=80=93 and hence =E2=80=93 CRH actually works for us =E2= =80=93 very very well =E2=80=93 because it retains that which I need =E2=80= =93 while adding some really nice advantages on top of it.=C2=A0 But again = =E2=80=93 we have asked =E2=80=93 multiple times =E2=80=93 for the technical problems behind CRH = =E2=80=93 and the ringing in my ears is deafening from the silence.<= u>

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Friday, 6 September 2019 11:28
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom= .com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net>; Tarek Sa= ad <tsaad.net@g= mail.com>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) <= ;zali@cisco.com>=
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi Andrew,

=C2=A0

I agree with Robert. =

CRH is nothing else than IPv6 o= ver SR-MPLS.

In the vast majority of the dep= loyments (single SP domain), one can deploy MPLS.

In a minority of cases where so= me MPLS discontinuity in the domain could exist, SR-MPLS over IP/UDP is an = adopted and deployed solution.

=C2=A0

As you stated in your original = response=E2=80=9D

=E2=80=9CNow =E2=80=93 in that case SR-MPLS would have been just fine and fran= kly speaking =E2=80=93 we were entirely happy with pure SR-MPLS and I=E2=80= =99m on record saying that I didn=E2=80=99t see much of a use case for SRv6= at all.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

I can see why you liked CRH.

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar =

=C2=A0

From: Robert= Raszuk <robert@r= aszuk.net>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:01 AM
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, Srih= ari Sangli <ssa= ngli@juniper.net>, Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>, Rob Shakir <robjs= @google.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi Andrew,

=C2=A0

I can say that I may even agree= with some of your points. But one question I asked which no one responded = still stands ...=C2=A0

=C2=A0

SRv6+ is almost identical to SR= -MPLS with IP transport between segment nodes. Both require mapping, both r= equire changes to OAM, both require IGP extensions, both can use the same f= orwarding hardware and logic, both require almost identical operation etc .... As you know even main author of SRv6+ = agrees with all of this in the notes sent to the list.=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0

So please help me to understand= why entire industry who wants to be good IETF citizen and Industry player = should now invest a lot of resources in development, testing, shipping and = support of a solution which is just a poor mirror of something which is already available ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yes some folks were allergic to= MPLS in the past and some are still allergic to MPLS. But as someone who h= ave worked since Tag Switching early days on that piece of technology let m= e tell you that vast majority of those folks do not even understand the difference between MPLS used for transpor= t and MPLS used as forwarding demux for the applications. They just treat i= t the very same way like an evil or devil protocol which does nothing else = other then demonstrate their complete ignorance of the subject.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yes MPLS to be used as a transp= ort is a mistake. It was not a mistake in the past as when we rolled out se= rvices which required encapsulation most platforms in the field just could = not do line rate IP encapsulation. But those days are gone. If in 1998 time frame routers could do IPv4 in IPv4 e= ncap MPLS as a transport would have never succeeded.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Then of course there was more m= istakes TDP later by IETF collaboration became LDP was a mapping protocol -= yes another mistake instead of making up front domain wide labels and exte= nded IGPs and BGP for that. Well the thought was that working on single protocol will be easier then extending = ISIS, OSPFv2 (and v3 on the radar), RIPv2, EIGRP.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But this is MPLS transport whic= h in spite of little group of folks still selling it around believe it or n= ot it is going away.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But nothing is wrong about usin= g 20 bit labels as demux for applications and services. Packet carry bits. = Nowhere in the packet even if you decode it carefully it says "I am MP= LS" ... forwarding on the boxes also uses bit lookup and if you ask your vendor they can paint it and abstract all t= he MPLS legacy in the CLI for you so you never see it.=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0

Bottom line is that I see no re= ason at all to adopt a solution which=C2=A0walks like a duck, quacks like a= duck and only carries a label "I am not a duck"

=C2=A0

Best,

R.

=C2=A0

<snip>

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
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--000000000000947c290591de8cb4-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 01:57:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D50D12006E; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:57:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5-m3bSK5XQTl; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BD8A12001E; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 01:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x868vd8P030130; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:57:39 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 27BDB204E28; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:57:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet1-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.12]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C62200E21; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:57:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet1-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x868vck2010311; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:57:38 +0200 To: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont Cc: Robert Raszuk , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" References: <3D8725E7-EAA3-4615-ABA2-FFA53D2F1B14@employees.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 10:57:38 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3D8725E7-EAA3-4615-ABA2-FFA53D2F1B14@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law - non-technical side note X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 08:57:46 -0000 This is a non-technical side note about the Spirit and Letter of the Law in IPv6 WG. In these discussions about IPv6 like routing header, insertion, mutability, 64bit, limited domains, multihoming, smart end dumb network, and numerous other 'tussles', one is supposed to take a side among one of those two: - maintain rock solid principles, continue the tradition, keep it up working as it was designed to and that demonstrated its validity on very large scale. - break away from tradition, foster innovation, things will work anyways because humans engineer them and market regulates them. Only deep convictions about one of those two sides can make IPv6 deployment and development progress. On my side, I cant make have such deep convictions. Alex Le 05/09/2019 à 23:58, Ole Troan a écrit : > Fernando, > > >> On 5 Sep 2019, at 21:54, Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> On 5/9/19 22:30, Ole Troan wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> On 5 Sep 2019, at 21:03, Fernando Gont wrote: >>>> >>>> We have wasted way too much time and energy with all the methafores and >>>> curious interpretations of standards by folks pushing and/or supporting >>>> EH insertion, really. >>> >>> Pot calling kettle black? >> >> Not really. >> >> Since this whole EH-insertion debate started, it has all been about >> pushing it forward no matter what. >> >> The spec is clear. If you want to change it, make a strong case for it. >> BUt do not try to circumvent the IETF consensus on the topic. > > Straw man attack. > > I think you have repeatedly made your point. > > O. > From nobody Fri Sep 6 02:06:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79E2C12006E; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 02:06:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wsTR22AEndr5; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 02:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E31012001E; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 02:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id r12so3987862pfh.1; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 02:06:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OqWTswgE2bcQTxZglvJIDEwT17hGq6OBULPA+q1SawI=; b=sj+Mfj2sjsoUvoiZ454ALMO0Qnj6cn5Y6qK7jc+ALXK35g0v1ui6iZpRvUuWOSdZNy MZGNv0SfAwDRmUjFeCOpoi768Se67rgshk4LQExFasmrqvqzURWdRu9d6U1AGSpgBVDO PcpN4E0bZuX998LO3XcTCIucmMOO9zaUIORTOUe85JJJ7dXB7S8H/lnmU+KmeR4hmXw4 QPZ8b5/7MEjyuJ+2j2IJHkZHhy7o3i6Z2PTTzhG4ZP67cVke/fb512v/px1cdPgo/DJ0 cJUmkL2oGSu57IUAawC1LK/MUECeC9/Bp6u3L4gaor1ET+1fcGGOtMkCD3pAMRKjZb6V aqrg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OqWTswgE2bcQTxZglvJIDEwT17hGq6OBULPA+q1SawI=; b=D0hEZWZSCTcx1UUk/h8ZlBfYTYQGRUjehtModbsJGXX249oiPxGLVpeBzlKrNdSKNb KJERdgS00SPi++bPUNksTm/ceBT319cMEHuJbXMWDkiBG3GNvOYydORfeBCJXl8k+akc ELu4GnjDjZAowTBsB3zKBxumNw23XZVOYdCG3yJauhcVbRl7FzjlVvKdYO3Q/XDS+iHB OKsISunksQG7hC2MMLKJ4E2VR+zbBbwYqODVjsNI+Usa7F9JEBbCvSnhAfKyh/yWGD0J sUUv7ula4OL75A3G4SqCVlS6KrNRP7jrNuF1gGobMXteMsKDKRxyRaswiM519EYJq0OO DohQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWvLMV/ACFk/EWYP1+2GN6xfMIH5CiZsfK+4ordpkY6BvxN4sE1 uu/dO5JP/VkuFsLPOSFEr/m2FIM/sF1okkalV/0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz07bDOtFqLZb7rm/o5sDGtqpgEzmYHCT3g4o4iDqGBB7/h2HBcL9v0EIxw9RL80U53Ez7YDUR89nqFY5bDMH0= X-Received: by 2002:a63:550e:: with SMTP id j14mr6326803pgb.302.1567760771336; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 02:06:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D8725E7-EAA3-4615-ABA2-FFA53D2F1B14@employees.org> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 11:06:01 +0200 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000de52270591debfcf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law - non-technical side note X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 09:06:15 -0000 --000000000000de52270591debfcf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Alex, This is really spot on and very brilliant summary of the state we are in ! And since last 25 years rather proved that the first options is not working the choice seems pretty clear that we should rather choose the second one. Best, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:57 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > This is a non-technical side note about the Spirit and Letter of the Law > in IPv6 WG. > > In these discussions about IPv6 like routing header, insertion, > mutability, 64bit, limited domains, multihoming, smart end dumb network, > and numerous other 'tussles', one is supposed to take a side among one > of those two: > > - maintain rock solid principles, continue the tradition, keep it up > working as it was designed to and that demonstrated its validity on very > large scale. > > - break away from tradition, foster innovation, things will work anyways > because humans engineer them and market regulates them. > > Only deep convictions about one of those two sides can make IPv6 > deployment and development progress. > > On my side, I cant make have such deep convictions. > > Alex > --000000000000de52270591debfcf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alex,

This is really spot on and very= brilliant summary of the state we are in !=C2=A0
<= br>
And since last 25 years rather proved that the = first options is not working the=C2=A0choice seems pretty=C2=A0clear that w= e should rather choose the second one.=C2=A0

Best,
R.


On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:57 AM Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
This is a non-technical side note about the Spirit and Letter of the Law in IPv6 WG.

In these discussions about IPv6 like routing header, insertion,
mutability, 64bit, limited domains, multihoming, smart end dumb network, and numerous other 'tussles', one is supposed to take a side among = one
of those two:

- maintain rock solid principles, continue the tradition, keep it up
working as it was designed to and that demonstrated its validity on very large scale.

- break away from tradition, foster innovation, things will work anyways because humans engineer them and market regulates them.

Only deep convictions about one of those two sides can make IPv6
deployment and development progress.

On my side, I cant make have such deep convictions.

Alex
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From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 13:01:27 +0200 Message-ID: To: Srihari Sangli Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Tarek Saad , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ron Bonica Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2b0660591e05c8d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 11:01:51 -0000 --000000000000d2b0660591e05c8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real problem ? Best R On Fri, Sep 6, 2019, 11:41 Srihari Sangli wrote: > Zafar, > > > > =C2=B7 The original segment list is maintained by using the > non-Reduced flavor (in which case the SID list is fully preserved in the > SRH). > > > > [RB] At the cost of encoding efficiency. 50% decrease !! > > > > If I understand it right, the IPv6 packet carrying uSIDs will also have > full set SID carried in the SRH. The full SID list in SRH is to provide > additional information ? Pls let me know if I got it right. Thanks. > > > > srhari=E2=80=A6 > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000d2b0660591e05c8d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a re= al problem ?

Best
R=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019, 11:41 Srihari Sangli <ssang= li=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ie= tf.org> wrote:

Zafar,

=C2=A0

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The original segment list is maintained by usin= g the non-Reduced flavor (in which case the SID list is fully preserved in = the SRH).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[RB] At the cost of enc= oding efficiency. 50% decrease !!

=C2=A0

If I understand it right, the IPv6 packet carrying uSI= Ds will also have full set SID carried in the SRH. The full SID list in SRH= is to provide additional information ? Pls let me know if I got it right. Thanks.

=C2=A0

srhari=E2=80=A6

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Thread-Index: AQHVSwgt98swpc9VGEiHCF6pCt7E6qcYa58AgAHuRoCAAA+hgIAD7CKAgAADCDCAAAbUAIAAASpAgAAFfgCAAGeDIA== Content-Class: Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 12:54:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CCE1F5C-A886-4B06-8B97-D0645CFFE5E2@cisco.com> <20190906.084132.330516044.sthaug@nethelp.no> In-Reply-To: <20190906.084132.330516044.sthaug@nethelp.no> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=rbonica@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2019-09-06T12:54:52.8015969Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=Juniper Business Use Only; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=11eb3899-74ae-4ea0-a4f6-83a4258ecbb3; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic dlp-product: dlpe-windows dlp-version: 11.2.0.14 dlp-reaction: no-action x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.12] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e10edda7-9243-4133-956f-08d732c96a52 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR05MB4120; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR05MB4120: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:5236; x-forefront-prvs: 0152EBA40F x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(366004)(346002)(39860400002)(376002)(136003)(396003)(189003)(199004)(13464003)(25786009)(53936002)(4326008)(5640700003)(64756008)(305945005)(66446008)(6306002)(7736002)(6246003)(66946007)(55016002)(66476007)(966005)(52536014)(229853002)(476003)(71200400001)(4744005)(71190400001)(8936002)(1730700003)(8676002)(81166006)(446003)(81156014)(6916009)(2906002)(86362001)(6116002)(11346002)(3846002)(54906003)(76176011)(53546011)(256004)(486006)(66066001)(9686003)(2351001)(33656002)(6506007)(5660300002)(7696005)(99286004)(26005)(186003)(76116006)(74316002)(66556008)(102836004)(316002)(478600001)(2501003)(14454004)(6436002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BYAPR05MB4120; H:BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 2Rr00O6MvFY9RYrtKG64Ab9XQWJqTRPXVDF5dq/qS0MO6Na5KkITxPe+uvwcIL29nfENmbv1tPCQ1P+Um+EEn1q5bKiMf/D6jj5n9pmtMI9ADE6ofiDL3ykrSyto3Sz9e8yeMv5GDppf76oFRnyRDIzrpX9DoXlN+ze4eGQXaD2fosZK95deFo080vzw71QTh3gadZS/r3n/fxwEk7rixUJYz6LARP9l0okYhbcZu+Eo/2kZtpLMhsQjwiHiBDntG5O97mkY9k7fQQa8f5WzzVM17HV8PkiSEYts3O/cCJsNZyReeUXz3ItEM5TeQjBtmA/wJOaD92aUxzWZCclpnKsQFswe6TrgGtQY1EyStSzZO9hWGTWxZrnsNj8jBsyd0UU5JrITaiqJqGjxhvesaUndbhFCpChhPCrkP+C/hZY= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e10edda7-9243-4133-956f-08d732c96a52 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Sep 2019 12:54:54.8397 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: gYJyBkXNv06g7SFgOf+YiaqHP0xv2g0TyRCbapuxg20a4LZItPKSSklJwhNfivYeyegUupUp37ANSBmClggL1w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB4120 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-06_06:2019-09-04,2019-09-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 clxscore=1011 bulkscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909060136 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 12:55:01 -0000 Steinar, Vanilla TRACEROUTE reveals all of the mapping information. RFC 5837 offers = some nice extras, but isn't strictly required. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: sthaug@nethelp.no =20 Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 2:42 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > Nothing so complicated is required. At most, PING and TRACEROUTE with RFC= 5837 extensions. Are there any vendors actually implementing RFC 5837? Ivan Pepelnjak commen= ted "However, it looks like nobody implemented it in almost five years sinc= e it was published." at https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://blog.ipspace.net/2016/01/are-unnumbe= red-interfaces-harmful.html__;!8WoA6RjC81c!RpF3DZprPGFaTqO0XZL8SzokiqeBSyo_= ldL6rRhpOyJxiSJ0rtHM15msZ5hD9Fga$=20 Has the situation changed? Steinar Haug, AS2116 From nobody Fri Sep 6 06:02:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A0B120813 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:02:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EjAiuIDoqyE2 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A2DA1208D1 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id f13so5480944qkm.9 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 06:02:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BGbiQ4pG577z/GQItdtWs67HdjH8gKev9ZvODV3ftv8=; b=EjeGYMe6RK9QglbpCqEn9LIYMh21C/4UbJws8Zo7OkrRwnm0Gh2FnQrwSKm4FnOjPY z+Mpi34wSuSKf6k+qmoMGgkYI/mUEyu6IRmMM384afM8zTJl01CcDN0XZUotJjCxf3Bq JHAhrdRK97KmLdjPpbgixn98rtINVDSRVoWxeLjDao+/yDRsYpvlDtyvucVzyfhreOrb 2o9JAq7YFVHIk1Ha/UbHKyv1oUU3rD0OSlMMEymeef84Ja0u/fctOqY/bhFWwllxve77 aI5OJJLvYkHX8B+tpF1tXjngV1aPbf+qGCedRBbcoIUkbTrhtl530A9xeMzfnZApGm4b TvdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BGbiQ4pG577z/GQItdtWs67HdjH8gKev9ZvODV3ftv8=; b=Jf7BhalFXx/qvrp1jX0OoUGCnDpGpdAEsqatZ2671K55vxmybLNBEbrZUaLdkuvkMR yDThoGaZcLLcatXNZn7wjEAS36FKnfBIvfjXGukCuYFDmhKwDvYOq9U+aaRAAmYk6u/V LAnyolXogRtSjdNpQbHqGndH3NjkCChhPTv7sBqHxnIGpDkFzZymto+W0Ncij70npKQO qNXrIVva5Mi26OgYD6GXuWdhmKtgr0YP8LjHUjL/4PrPnsLQgSJo5mgfHLu3gE3Ysg1K Hcjnd9o2oucNKWLO7fn/i6Wz0HTcL6840WkSBB5zom878M9cWudJnBHxoheDT/HX2aVX UisA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV9s7aUc50Rwvq+U5CqZdzy6+FXeeqGlmGEAiH6UTioE6M6E9/e wE7WmhCzAOAQJg+ohhO/G9mD28AoUrGyBppxfAlXVA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxgUcIzdWsRy9e02J/FUeDm2/MMyzXhT3hn1+yggXI/abDtPFNcxlguWUX4jQVLEnMQ/ptWqSePi+PyTZVZbPI= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6144:: with SMTP id v65mr8286441qkb.465.1567774960593; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 06:02:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9CCE1F5C-A886-4B06-8B97-D0645CFFE5E2@cisco.com> <20190906.084132.330516044.sthaug@nethelp.no> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:02:25 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "sthaug@nethelp.no" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009d3f4b0591e20d4a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 13:02:46 -0000 --0000000000009d3f4b0591e20d4a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Vanilla TRACEROUTE reveals all of the mapping information. RFC 5837 offers > some nice extras, but isn't strictly required. > Really ? If your traffic policy steers some TCP traffic for ports 4000-5000 to take segment A-B-C-D and for ports 6000-7000 to take segment A-E-F-G-D how your vanilla traceroute is going to discover it when running the traceroute from outside of the network ? Thx, R. --0000000000009d3f4b0591e20d4a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vanilla TRACEROUTE reveals all of the mapping informatio= n. RFC 5837 offers some nice extras, but isn't strictly required.

Really ?=C2=A0

If y= our traffic policy steers some TCP traffic for ports 4000-5000 to take segm= ent A-B-C-D and for ports 6000-7000 to take segment A-E-F-G-D how your vani= lla traceroute is going to discover it when running the traceroute from out= side of the network ?=C2=A0

Thx,
R.
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boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB5463153B47BFE83350C566E7AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 64cf1173-9f57-43b2-668d-08d732cb3d45 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Sep 2019 13:07:57.7596 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0Z1QbjlQSQQfmnnVVj1Qu6i4Hh3bW4qSFAG75B6dv8ewpiCylrA0WGjeZEvnBnC4brY6fWI7Q/GeHyfeRp5icQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6517 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-06_06:2019-09-04,2019-09-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=956 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909060138 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 13:08:05 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463153B47BFE83350C566E7AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, "All who= wander are not lost." But it may be time to refocus on the following: * For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of head= er length is addressed * Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered * SRv6+ offers an alternative solution Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463153B47BFE83350C566E7AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks,

 

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, somet= ime passionately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the wor= ds of Tolkien, “All who wander are not lost.”

 

But it may be time to refocus on the following:=

 

  • For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of head= er length is addressed
  • Many objections the uSID propo= sal remain unanswered
  • SRv6+ offers an alternativ= e solution

 

Given these three facts, I think that it would be a = mistake to discontinue work on SRv6+.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           Ron<= /o:p>

 


Juniper Business= Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB5463153B47BFE83350C566E7AEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 06:33:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F0D120B36; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:33:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TcI3PI1yGx9J; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD875120B15; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 06:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id d10so3518745pgo.5; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 06:33:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6rtb03ivTzn86uJkfwweU454I37re+OjooOyWn0LJUU=; b=VFYd+DR03tH31O7DbzBQfng28HusQPuFRDLfErmkdVVOegqoqXrnWhSpLdRyOxij93 +U2ua2AGNS20AUN/feqCQanS+0bPB5s8khTi9hXbfakYDc8sgnU2Rs7VtETzpv1aruTz VSRo2saVJ4bkSSNlr/IERiTiJMOwjXxIiKvU5S0AowDmDHcav/I8vjHN32LbuIgsFWm0 q/LfLbGmpavuAs5V1n+qnai1YKZEqBvcgEwHBthMFCGOkOBuARw1SC6v5OtB6z2pvVQV k7knfO3kANQ/jktiVvDwh0PAbKwel/M46pfW+/F+1spKftVeJEbY8FNUDhzFaHmi5EmC 1hSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6rtb03ivTzn86uJkfwweU454I37re+OjooOyWn0LJUU=; b=AoiZCSRuFLtwJ0QTIwCMqQ/DUfuIjQ1ECH440C5Fb97HTvThGNvrgcqz6JwaZcu4H6 DN6C1uRl3gwEr+LY7//U+E4LlTGyjf2voHvTi3PndMqpby/r10+lx23UhjqKqsfJXx6l bbvM+eA8UjHzDYJE1wZ4ISdzmukFy4V0H5q9LfFVsM0Byvtsq1j/t4fygQesSrAcX0tK W8u0dhLwtrohegHRvQeCWekHPKZCuY+17KGQrAE5ZkoUXjIxsiIba3IjxMgr05edpnzf QA+KPKg1RYoCDCMnZnWZFk3coaGSad5P/KxFbgQu5bOPJ5BTukk5bwe3OsFg3BdqEEha /qzQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVS/dJFhQigGHjBDsjgLoXAOplB67neGhN2taUB0I+TO+RIfMEw 4pfI5js8a4KOYARTrvlkvYxwq0sVS1OsZmCkV0A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx0h8ewGWCM/2Pp/M3M0pjaIuXaUT3S6to7xXwUD8n9OyxUGC+x+u5V8gjvWAPiqHlve9xwJEF1Hni58MiQDzk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:3847:: with SMTP id l7mr9291947pjf.99.1567776801353; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 06:33:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:33:06 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054f6e00591e27b51" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 13:33:29 -0000 --00000000000054f6e00591e27b51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ron, I think you forgot few main points in the summary: * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implementations * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of SR-MPLS * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non are available for SRv6+ * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by control plane * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require another set of protocol and implementation changes. * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and industry work in this direction. With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. Thank you, Robert. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Folks, > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I > think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll > who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > - For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of > header length is addressed > - Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > - SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinu= e > work on SRv6+. > > > > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --00000000000054f6e00591e27b51 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ron,

<= /div>
I think=C2=A0you forgot few main points in the summ= ary:=C2=A0

* Many oper= ators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized and succes= sfully deployed in the network=C2=A0with interoperable implementations=C2= =A0

* The overhead on = the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of SR-MPLS

* The control plane extensions = BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non are available for SRv6+

* SRv6+ requires a new mapping= of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by control plane=C2=A0

* If operators choose not to use MP= LS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla da= ta plane

* Extensi= ons for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require another = set of protocol and implementation changes.=C2=A0
<= br>
* If there are=C2=A0vendors who do not want to = provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IPv6 addresses in their control planes let&#= 39;s focus standardization and industry work in this direction.=C2=A0
=

With all of the above I thi= nk it would be a serious mistake - at this point of time - to continue work= on SRv6+ in the IETF.=C2=A0

Thank you,
Robert.


On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org&g= t; wrote:

Folks,

=C2=A0

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, somet= ime passionately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the wor= ds of Tolkien, =E2=80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D=

=C2=A0

But it may be time to refocus on the following:

=C2=A0

  • For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of h= eader length is addressed
  • Many objections the uS= ID proposal remain unanswered
  • SRv6+ offers an al= ternative solution

=C2=A0

Given these three facts, I think that it would be a = mistake to discontinue work on SRv6+.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0


Juniper Business Use Only

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--00000000000054f6e00591e27b51-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:03:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD484120B57; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:03:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6c6vNrv04UhE; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2c.google.com (mail-io1-xd2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD6FC120B54; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2c.google.com with SMTP id f12so12869333iog.12; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:03:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=OtNR656Wq3OAn3uDzh7kwJtDfiO0a843cvPPUlpj4x4=; b=tk8zrZSrSj9gH+UMHi2MiKsXX9zheE7CEADk22FLF39m8ZhAO4CTOUs14De3ts08C2 wnrXVVimvSurPpkC5a4ig1uIi0kgZCLE97Vr6J7sN449JMRLxnP/XLHn4OunxvHGd7EI m5hQc9QR5mvXYm9YJ0XDFPVYUBLm5DKGR6ZTUqRdDIqqgWhCiQRHsrwUnSVhbLA2ZCt1 9vvZIQhpW8tR0DoHmicH4ebL20VSdcPyTRsKV3FxAsuQSvPv3a6Z2/IRM/9AaRY1hMT2 ne0fog6QrFCfUtdtwlkJTXhpNKqaQPwwx7xbawHbhV6rBEjeJscfWB3d5mWehLj+6Z6c 9xxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:thread-topic:thread-index :date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language :content-language:mime-version; bh=OtNR656Wq3OAn3uDzh7kwJtDfiO0a843cvPPUlpj4x4=; b=RDn6szWNQheHEWG1FSLI65nuNKROL+1p05eW5lFm334VSq8TYSJAyfPTQCjlElFFLR FGawicrDupdqm5aZkX9hUxxmTeWi8O6qrcZ8DF0Q0ZXu17FC6+mhrFEEWBBbOk9xo2Kk cWdPBgu2Bv/Kh+TMRNfGVQpPJ4OOiQJgaBuEvXLiR4HGeKXBKaNU25qg1zEWtqJoEPRq zdQQOY+1xJ8J0cD/9Ne5EeXZ3AeFolqSXOQCzpEl3nIYfrLPPnZ8moqv4nb090XInGGh jRQcgEdTClq/oG7olYQfX9W3VrNGCbkp0xFEUpb3Dn//sbA0YBQN+2+ZbFAOI/6jjGP6 QxaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW6f7x4bUGSMoY87nd/eVdMm65FeO7Cz7wiZ2s48573aFp2dBWz b0GdRWgLDcUEK5A/Bct+WS4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJpxZDTvgfjbbr9rp307iVe6uHg+66xEC3wp18aAA8YRQybW+qEoKkFBP+K+tBPwe7hm+05Q== X-Received: by 2002:a02:6616:: with SMTP id k22mr10073196jac.129.1567778590135; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BYAPR19MB3415.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:307:293b::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l8sm3714456ioh.85.2019.09.06.07.03.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:03:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Tarek Saad To: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: ATA2M0I1YSfcPvsySeOhKIoXgM05s1FfTzAwx9IWoJo= X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:03:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR19MB3415BA05D2BD5525FEAE2771FCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:03:14 -0000 --_000_BYAPR19MB3415BA05D2BD5525FEAE2771FCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert, >> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily tr= ansported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane I=92m little confused about the above argument =96 given it starts with don= =92t want to use MPLS, can you clarify? Regards, Tarek From: spring on behalf of Robert Raszuk Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Dear Ron, I think you forgot few main points in the summary: * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized= and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implementation= s * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of= SR-MPLS * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non a= re available for SRv6+ * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by con= trol plane * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily trans= ported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require= another set of protocol and implementation changes. * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IP= v6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and indust= ry work in this direction. With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this point= of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. Thank you, Robert. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Folks, We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =93All w= ho wander are not lost.=94 But it may be time to refocus on the following: =B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header= length is addressed =B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered =B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_BYAPR19MB3415BA05D2BD5525FEAE2771FCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Robert,

 

>> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easi= ly transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

I=92m little confus= ed about the above argument =96 given it starts with don=92t want to use MP= LS, can you clarify?

 

Regards,=

Tarek

 

From: spring <spring-b= ounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com> Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@= ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Dear Ron,

 

I think you forgot fe= w main points in the summary: 

 

* Many operators use SR-MP= LS successfully and it has been both standardized and successfully deployed= in the network with interoperable implementations 

 

* The overhead on the data= plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of SR-MPLS

 

* The control plane extens= ions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non are available for SRv6+=

 

* SRv6+ requires a new= mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by control plane <= /o:p>

 

* If operators choose not = to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv4 or IPv6 v= anilla data plane

 

* Extensions for additiona= l applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require another set of protocol a= nd implementation changes. 

 

* If there are vendor= s who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IPv6 addresses in their= control planes let's focus standardization and industry work in this direction. 

 

With all of the above I th= ink it would be a serious mistake - at this point of time - to continue wor= k on SRv6+ in the IETF. 

 

Thank you,

Robert.<= /p>

 

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:= 08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Folks,

 

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =93All w= ho wander are not lost.=94

 

But it may be time to refocus on the following:

 

=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable u= nless the problem of header length is addressed

=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain una= nswered

=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution

 

Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+.

 

            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =         Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

-------------------------= -------------------------------------------
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--_000_BYAPR19MB3415BA05D2BD5525FEAE2771FCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:07:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F4D120B56; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:07:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hc9pZhsG8qbC; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com (mail-io1-xd30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA9EC12006A; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id u185so12910761iod.10; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:07:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=1bnWFOQizscfrB2Udwh7fmzoVJDlRxBoicCiXu/Hlrc=; b=u8zF7PWFLdHAHfU1KKjybgc5TCoB8janC1U04/Kg1aFjNetXyNffWZ0S3Bhhbqk9MR mqGPvW8mCb8XRubmIiNna5jDPUCNCNuarJKQkDYlX1rLc7GqC7Yo93XOsFeMyiIPVK/b utoXp6wXR8yr7q0XVRr7EiRmukKSXFsYOvKH/MzKfZ6DkTjqRfZOQZd3pdlSbQE2StNb vbepGYVhfiFV8EkapQREvvHEO6gE810q9a/zvcWaDTEPyI16B0Z2KuVQWxbzgRa2A0i3 PPhuyKL16gd2GlelLrwzll4xpYagXpLAzBrB8BMX7Bf67BrTTG/zt3MP6/CuboSUznWn aGyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:thread-topic:thread-index :date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language :content-language:mime-version; bh=1bnWFOQizscfrB2Udwh7fmzoVJDlRxBoicCiXu/Hlrc=; b=MorFdDVNciZcIRfx7EM6MUUPMxaorh+JvARzR2RCCDpZnfzoPpkRvmX8U6T2SB59zu lko3TS9rQ/d2QErI4s3ooRG9AAVJg+7pXHrV5qWqFdcYX38X6KLAsvhUmooVMGK3X/Un Gj7mk7/IdOYJ0DKABWv2pPI6iSUCyak6OqNT1UaTBCz4ilLJuXRDXUa5yjEGOAQ7AvBU YSoNTAk4TzE/5KpJjMBJuTct5P1ch0xX+pwEw2lS4lOami7ShUUQoxrlZTXV5ecAaeRe m/Vg0RhZwv2F1txdMmbemybcBwJiChvMbKDivvh0q86dK8iwEwnrnao+OJlnm+8WQxlA c9lg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXX9fmAl2fiR2YV35kS7zu4/h99HeoBmCJL0jEPgMUbw9cc0Zl4 GQtGCWRSeIl+N7e72LVCGZA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzEmG3Kqc5/e+2BuqX0eUsYAU9qCJBosoo+t422s5BjsXn8FtjYjHIpD2dJfU789O8nQPoYSw== X-Received: by 2002:a5e:930b:: with SMTP id k11mr4668793iom.2.1567778822192; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BYAPR19MB3415.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:307:293b::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g4sm14074222iof.56.2019.09.06.07.07.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:07:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Tarek Saad To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Robert Raszuk , Andrew Alston CC: Ron Bonica , Srihari Sangli , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: ATBGQjk1oYhSx3NNaZ48HBS3bF6/vDBBODQzyLZxYoCAA+wigIAABEgAgAAFlACAAA0GgIAAD92AgAAHpYCAAF6WGw== X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:07:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <9CCE1F5C-A886-4B06-8B97-D0645CFFE5E2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR19MB3415FDCB6394247040FA1B0CFCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:07:06 -0000 --_000_BYAPR19MB3415FDCB6394247040FA1B0CFCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Zafar, >> In the vast majority of the deployments (single SP domain), one can depl= oy MPLS. >> In a minority of cases where some MPLS discontinuity in the domain could= exist, SR-MPLS over IP/UDP is an adopted and deployed solution. For an operator who has used MPLS, don=92t you think SRv6+ will appeal more= to them in this case? Given all the arguments that are being made that it = does resemble MPLS in its mapping prefixes to short labels? Regards, Tarek From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:28 AM To: Robert Raszuk , Andrew Alston Cc: Ron Bonica , Srihari Sangli ,= Tarek Saad , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG= List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)= " Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Andrew, I agree with Robert. CRH is nothing else than IPv6 over SR-MPLS. In the vast majority of the deployments (single SP domain), one can deploy = MPLS. In a minority of cases where some MPLS discontinuity in the domain could ex= ist, SR-MPLS over IP/UDP is an adopted and deployed solution. As you stated in your original response=94 =93Now =96 in that case SR-MPLS would have been just fine and frankly speak= ing =96 we were entirely happy with pure SR-MPLS and I=92m on record saying= that I didn=92t see much of a use case for SRv6 at all.=94 I can see why you liked CRH. Thanks Regards =85 Zafar From: Robert Raszuk Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:01 AM To: Andrew Alston Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Ron Bonica , = Srihari Sangli , Tarek Saad , Rob= Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.or= g" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi Andrew, I can say that I may even agree with some of your points. But one question = I asked which no one responded still stands ... SRv6+ is almost identical to SR-MPLS with IP transport between segment node= s. Both require mapping, both require changes to OAM, both require IGP exte= nsions, both can use the same forwarding hardware and logic, both require a= lmost identical operation etc .... As you know even main author of SRv6+ ag= rees with all of this in the notes sent to the list. So please help me to understand why entire industry who wants to be good IE= TF citizen and Industry player should now invest a lot of resources in deve= lopment, testing, shipping and support of a solution which is just a poor m= irror of something which is already available ? Yes some folks were allergic to MPLS in the past and some are still allergi= c to MPLS. But as someone who have worked since Tag Switching early days on= that piece of technology let me tell you that vast majority of those folks= do not even understand the difference between MPLS used for transport and = MPLS used as forwarding demux for the applications. They just treat it the = very same way like an evil or devil protocol which does nothing else other = then demonstrate their complete ignorance of the subject. Yes MPLS to be used as a transport is a mistake. It was not a mistake in th= e past as when we rolled out services which required encapsulation most pla= tforms in the field just could not do line rate IP encapsulation. But those= days are gone. If in 1998 time frame routers could do IPv4 in IPv4 encap M= PLS as a transport would have never succeeded. Then of course there was more mistakes TDP later by IETF collaboration beca= me LDP was a mapping protocol - yes another mistake instead of making up fr= ont domain wide labels and extended IGPs and BGP for that. Well the thought= was that working on single protocol will be easier then extending ISIS, OS= PFv2 (and v3 on the radar), RIPv2, EIGRP. But this is MPLS transport which in spite of little group of folks still se= lling it around believe it or not it is going away. But nothing is wrong about using 20 bit labels as demux for applications an= d services. Packet carry bits. Nowhere in the packet even if you decode it = carefully it says "I am MPLS" ... forwarding on the boxes also uses bit loo= kup and if you ask your vendor they can paint it and abstract all the MPLS = legacy in the CLI for you so you never see it. Bottom line is that I see no reason at all to adopt a solution which walks = like a duck, quacks like a duck and only carries a label "I am not a duck" Best, R. --_000_BYAPR19MB3415FDCB6394247040FA1B0CFCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Zafar,

 

>> In the vast majority of the deployments (single SP domain), one can deploy = MPLS.

>> In a minority of= cases where some MPLS discontinuity in the domain could exist, SR-MPLS ove= r IP/UDP is an adopted and deployed solution.

For an operator who= has used MPLS, don=92t you think SRv6+ will appeal more to them in thi= s case? Given all the arguments that are being made that it does resemble M= PLS in its mapping prefixes to short labels?

 

Regards,=

Tarek

 

 

From: "Zafar Ali (za= li)" <zali@cisco.com>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:28 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Andrew Alston <Andre= w.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, Srihari Sangli <ssang= li@juniper.net>, Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>, Rob Shakir <= robjs@google.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ie= tf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@c= isco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I agree with Robert.

CRH is nothing else than = IPv6 over SR-MPLS.

In the vast majority of t= he deployments (single SP domain), one can deploy MPLS.

In a minority of cases wh= ere some MPLS discontinuity in the domain could exist, SR-MPLS over IP/UDP = is an adopted and deployed solution.

 

As you stated in your ori= ginal response=94

=93Now =96 in that case SR-MPLS would have been just fine and frankly sp= eaking =96 we were entirely happy with pure SR-MPLS and I=92m on record say= ing that I didn=92t see much of a use case for SRv6 at all.=94

 

I can see why you liked C= RH.

 

Thanks

 

Regards =85 Zafar

 

From: Robert Raszuk <r= obert@raszuk.net>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:01 AM
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica = <rbonica@juniper.net>, Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net>, Ta= rek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, = SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@= ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Hi Andrew,

 

I can say that I may even= agree with some of your points. But one question I asked which no one resp= onded still stands ... 

 

SRv6+ is almost ident= ical to SR-MPLS with IP transport between segment nodes. Both require mappi= ng, both require changes to OAM, both require IGP extensions, both can use = the same forwarding hardware and logic, both require almost identical operation etc .... As you know even main aut= hor of SRv6+ agrees with all of this in the notes sent to the list.&nbs= p;

 

So please help me to unde= rstand why entire industry who wants to be good IETF citizen and Industry p= layer should now invest a lot of resources in development, testing, shippin= g and support of a solution which is just a poor mirror of something which is already available ? 

 

Yes some folks were aller= gic to MPLS in the past and some are still allergic to MPLS. But as someone= who have worked since Tag Switching early days on that piece of technology= let me tell you that vast majority of those folks do not even understand the difference between MPLS used for= transport and MPLS used as forwarding demux for the applications. They jus= t treat it the very same way like an evil or devil protocol which does noth= ing else other then demonstrate their complete ignorance of the subject. 

 

Yes MPLS to be used as a = transport is a mistake. It was not a mistake in the past as when we rolled = out services which required encapsulation most platforms in the field just = could not do line rate IP encapsulation. But those days are gone. If in 1998 time frame routers could do IPv4 in IP= v4 encap MPLS as a transport would have never succeeded. 

 

Then of course there was = more mistakes TDP later by IETF collaboration became LDP was a mapping prot= ocol - yes another mistake instead of making up front domain wide labels an= d extended IGPs and BGP for that. Well the thought was that working on single protocol will be easier then extend= ing ISIS, OSPFv2 (and v3 on the radar), RIPv2, EIGRP. 

 

But this is MPLS transpor= t which in spite of little group of folks still selling it around believe i= t or not it is going away. 

 

But nothing is wrong abou= t using 20 bit labels as demux for applications and services. Packet carry = bits. Nowhere in the packet even if you decode it carefully it says "I= am MPLS" ... forwarding on the boxes also uses bit lookup and if you ask your vendor they can paint it and abstract = all the MPLS legacy in the CLI for you so you never see it. 

 

Bottom line is that I see= no reason at all to adopt a solution which walks like a duck, quacks = like a duck and only carries a label "I am not a duck"=

 

Best,

R.

 

<snip>

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AVFfTzAwbFMdaKTaZSArnhaUA+NmPjA3MjUzhokhUACAAAHeFg== X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:15:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR19MB34155F13C6A8EDD0A7102930FCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:15:48 -0000 --_000_BYAPR19MB34155F13C6A8EDD0A7102930FCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, If I understand your elaborate response, you hint to keeping MPLS as demux = for services and native IPv4/IPv6 for transport.. which may not address bun= ch that religiously don=92t want to enable MPLS. OK, but how about traffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 tr= ansport? Seems SRv6+ solves that there =96 and vanilla IPv4/v6 does not. Regards, Tarek From: Robert Raszuk Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:09 AM To: Tarek Saad Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" = , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Please see my elaborated note on that ... https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/qvRUp8SC2cWeIE5UhhU9aKGtpHM Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:03 PM Tarek Saad > wrote: Hi Robert, >> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily tr= ansported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane I=92m little confused about the above argument =96 given it starts with don= =92t want to use MPLS, can you clarify? Regards, Tarek From: spring > on b= ehalf of Robert Raszuk > Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM To: Ron Bonica > Cc: "spring@ietf.org" >, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Dear Ron, I think you forgot few main points in the summary: * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized= and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implementation= s * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of= SR-MPLS * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non a= re available for SRv6+ * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by con= trol plane * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily trans= ported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require= another set of protocol and implementation changes. * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IP= v6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and indust= ry work in this direction. With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this point= of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. Thank you, Robert. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Folks, We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =93All w= ho wander are not lost.=94 But it may be time to refocus on the following: =95 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header= length is addressed =95 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered =95 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_BYAPR19MB34155F13C6A8EDD0A7102930FCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,<= /span>

 

If I understand you= r elaborate response, you hint to keeping MPLS as demux for services and na= tive IPv4/IPv6 for transport.. which may not address bunch that religiously= don=92t want to enable MPLS.

OK, but how about t= raffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 transport? Seems SRv6= + solves that there =96 and vanilla IPv4/v6 does not.=

 

Regards,=

Tarek

 

From: Robert Raszuk <r= raszuk@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:09 AM
To: Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "= ;spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" &= lt;6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Please see my elaborated n= ote on that ...

 

 

Cheers,<= /p>

R. =

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:= 03 PM Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail= .com> wrote:

Hi Robert,

 

>> * If operators = choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv= 4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

I=92m little confused about the above argu= ment =96 given it starts with don=92t want to use MPLS, can you clarify?

 

Regards,

Tarek

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf o= f Robert Raszuk <= rraszuk@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "sprin= g@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

D= ear Ron,

&= nbsp;

I= think you forgot few main points in the summary: 

&= nbsp;

*= Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized = and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implementa= tions 

&= nbsp;

*= The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead= of SR-MPLS

&= nbsp;

*= The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non ar= e available for SRv6+

&= nbsp;

*= SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by = control plane 

&= nbsp;

*= If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transp= orted over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

&= nbsp;

*= Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require = another set of protocol and implementation changes. =

&= nbsp;

*= If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping t= o IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and in= dustry work in this direction. 

&= nbsp;

W= ith all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this point = of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. 

&= nbsp;

T= hank you,

R= obert.

&= nbsp;

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:

Folks,

 

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =93All w= ho wander are not lost.=94

 

But it may be time to refocus on the following:

 

=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of hea= der length is addressed

=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered

=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution

 

Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+.

 

            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =         Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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--_000_BYAPR19MB34155F13C6A8EDD0A7102930FCBA0BYAPR19MB3415namp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:16:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58257120BFF; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:16:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dDQKUVzin6PQ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2b.google.com (mail-io1-xd2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CD78120C00; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2b.google.com with SMTP id x4so12972771iog.13; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:16:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YDXM82cXSCPfkEo09qce6OrdvMTzYzw+rFhhXmgzzq8=; b=cW7h8lfU0sgof5DeqpMdgx1K76/ChDGth0RG1tTT+vx72++fqkADPDIf8hKl58ZJPS 4ZLjts5NptQlrs9QePWTl1x2tUj/hlZ8Q4AwBd8ZMb0K6J6/1gioP6cEVMO8MdRz54/m ui1BzlkLS89MC4lngU7hWTo+ALqqndG2j6MlCc2AhfaGxidGZK6p/muy6VeC+qE9Bzua RD7GSwTAK+CXSmZoYCbWxPV2XnKe+zz3pgh+bkFiowii/VJwdRGOh46rklE9EP3Gc8QZ BXTP6zUL9kRvs+SDhuJhR8AlhBbhMrrRhvMrmbuulOit5jrKGAM9WJVDURWF4d3lq6in jCpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YDXM82cXSCPfkEo09qce6OrdvMTzYzw+rFhhXmgzzq8=; b=DkuptSy+llGYM9Svo1rzBbVZG9nwd96XVEaVoMgLXqcKT21AeQIrARLosQctGN+HDC Zr6F2u23BgC+ykqU/SNPitMEAK6apfRb/7/mQeklxlbmCMqHV+1gyA67A8yG4cmSIeYt jM1IvtXf15L6PjemeMoLsw2g/4aL97UCE9xy/lek7i/gXKN7Px88PLLZUNhwKUQR7oyq /RxscQxPLvNPFXsYvfBBo4Qun2NpsUzkBJ+bK+xp6B6J/CpJZ4KTxoM8sUvD/SvtNjYL Kr78B9RsYnwkFBMR1VfU/M2VNuRRVORqajbLyBU0hyD0u29LQNxNfpl7fPhhatCaG3c6 tURw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUqVPYj77irt8/tIBCFzhpImtOOTeTdKK5NVAui/MeEd0fTrwS8 WhX+ezKy+m1w7/Jt6vk2dLltI0FiQt8N2kWfTZs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxfCs4aZn9s0xPXXZ6fPF2WpXV52UJRIGI+d4IYIMxvhCVR7wDUu/lmKvCNenK3s5qzT3SE8nhrNEOZO9LrkUg= X-Received: by 2002:a02:b09c:: with SMTP id v28mr10345016jah.137.1567779371751; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:16:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <9CCE1F5C-A886-4B06-8B97-D0645CFFE5E2@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ca By Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:16:00 -0700 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir , Robert Raszuk , SPRING WG List , Tarek Saad , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a1c980591e314cc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:16:21 -0000 --0000000000008a1c980591e314cc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:40 AM Andrew Alston < Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote: > An Zafar =E2=80=93 I told by those words =E2=80=93 I am pragmatic though = as an operator. > I know that srv6 in some form or another is coming =E2=80=93 I stated as = much on > various blogs. I am not fool enough to believe that I am not going to be > forced into a situation where I am going to be made to run some variant o= f > this =E2=80=93 because I have been told very bluntly by certain vendors = that mpls > style development for v6 will cease at a control plane level =E2=80=93 an= d we are > already seeing situations where despite sr-mpls working just fine =E2=80= =93 certain > vendors have actively chosen to not support this with IPv6. > > Eh, i am also an operator of a non-trivial size network. The above statements make me concerned about your business. 1. I consider SR to be a bit of flashy marketing push by vendors to do things with no unique merit. One looks at a 1/2 page author list of these SR draft and must note something here is fishy. Folks from my company who have no idea what SRv6 is have been asked to add their names to the author list of SPRING drafts. It is a mirage, and poor form by the SR pushers to engage in this fake grass roots movement. 2. IMO, SR is like lisp and nsh. Overly complicated protocols driven by vendors, with plenty of astro turf, to make networks more complicated and expensive. Oh, and it is so simple ans great, but only runs on the newest kit ... 3. You are very confused. You give vendors requirements and they comply. You pay them, they do stuff. They will even put your name on an I-D you have not read. 4. SR is not coming to anyone who does not have the religion of SR. SR is no more of a solid bet than LISP or OpenFlow or NSH or =E2=80=9CSDN=E2=80= =9D or PCF .... My bet is MPLS will not die, it is 20 years mature and not going anywhere. Let=E2=80=99s see a vendor launch a serious carrier router without MPLS.... > > That has put me in a position where I have to be pragmatic =E2=80=93 beca= use =E2=80=93 as > an operator with a massive network =E2=80=93 I have to be able to continu= e to well, > operate. That leaves me needing something that finds a common ground > between those who want MPLS to die =E2=80=93 and the MPLS usage which is = present, > real and necessary in the world in which I operate. That leaves me with > needing a version of SRv6 which is usable, does not impose insane overhea= d, > and does not fundamentally rewrite the IPv6 protocol. > > > > I have been extremely open and honest about this =E2=80=93 I will however= say =E2=80=93 > that the added functionality through the network programmability =E2=80= =93 all of > which is catered for in CRH without the need to rewrite the IPv6 > specification to do it =E2=80=93 does have other use cases =E2=80=93 and = hence =E2=80=93 CRH > actually works for us =E2=80=93 very very well =E2=80=93 because it retai= ns that which I > need =E2=80=93 while adding some really nice advantages on top of it. Bu= t again =E2=80=93 > we have asked =E2=80=93 multiple times =E2=80=93 for the technical proble= ms behind CRH =E2=80=93 > and the ringing in my ears is deafening from the silence. > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* Zafar Ali (zali) > *Sent:* Friday, 6 September 2019 11:28 > *To:* Robert Raszuk ; Andrew Alston < > Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> > *Cc:* Ron Bonica ; Srihari Sangli < > ssangli@juniper.net>; Tarek Saad ; Rob Shakir < > robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org; Zafar > Ali (zali) > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > I agree with Robert. > > CRH is nothing else than IPv6 over SR-MPLS. > > In the vast majority of the deployments (single SP domain), one can deplo= y > MPLS. > > In a minority of cases where some MPLS discontinuity in the domain could > exist, SR-MPLS over IP/UDP is an adopted and deployed solution. > > > > As you stated in your original response=E2=80=9D > > =E2=80=9CNow =E2=80=93 in that case SR-MPLS would have been just fine and= frankly > speaking =E2=80=93 we were entirely happy with pure SR-MPLS and I=E2=80= =99m on record > saying that I didn=E2=80=99t see much of a use case for SRv6 at all.=E2= =80=9D > > > > I can see why you liked CRH. > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > *From: *Robert Raszuk > *Date: *Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:01 AM > *To: *Andrew Alston > *Cc: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" , Ron Bonica , > Srihari Sangli , Tarek Saad , > Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , " > 6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > I can say that I may even agree with some of your points. But one questio= n > I asked which no one responded still stands ... > > > > SRv6+ is almost identical to SR-MPLS with IP transport between segment > nodes. Both require mapping, both require changes to OAM, both require IG= P > extensions, both can use the same forwarding hardware and logic, both > require almost identical operation etc .... As you know even main author = of > SRv6+ agrees with all of this in the notes sent to the list. > > > > So please help me to understand why entire industry who wants to be good > IETF citizen and Industry player should now invest a lot of resources in > development, testing, shipping and support of a solution which is just a > poor mirror of something which is already available ? > > > > Yes some folks were allergic to MPLS in the past and some are still > allergic to MPLS. But as someone who have worked since Tag Switching earl= y > days on that piece of technology let me tell you that vast majority of > those folks do not even understand the difference between MPLS used for > transport and MPLS used as forwarding demux for the applications. They ju= st > treat it the very same way like an evil or devil protocol which does > nothing else other then demonstrate their complete ignorance of the > subject. > > > > Yes MPLS to be used as a transport is a mistake. It was not a mistake in > the past as when we rolled out services which required encapsulation most > platforms in the field just could not do line rate IP encapsulation. But > those days are gone. If in 1998 time frame routers could do IPv4 in IPv4 > encap MPLS as a transport would have never succeeded. > > > > Then of course there was more mistakes TDP later by IETF collaboration > became LDP was a mapping protocol - yes another mistake instead of making > up front domain wide labels and extended IGPs and BGP for that. Well the > thought was that working on single protocol will be easier then extending > ISIS, OSPFv2 (and v3 on the radar), RIPv2, EIGRP. > > > > But this is MPLS transport which in spite of little group of folks still > selling it around believe it or not it is going away. > > > > But nothing is wrong about using 20 bit labels as demux for applications > and services. Packet carry bits. Nowhere in the packet even if you decode > it carefully it says "I am MPLS" ... forwarding on the boxes also uses bi= t > lookup and if you ask your vendor they can paint it and abstract all the > MPLS legacy in the CLI for you so you never see it. > > > > Bottom line is that I see no reason at all to adopt a solution which walk= s > like a duck, quacks like a duck and only carries a label "I am not a duck= " > > > > Best, > > R. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000008a1c980591e314cc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:40 AM Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

An Zafar =E2=80=93 I told by th= ose words =E2=80=93 I am pragmatic though as an operator.=C2=A0 I know that= srv6 in some form or another is coming =E2=80=93 I stated as much on vario= us blogs. I am not fool enough to believe that I am not going to be forced into a situation where I am go= ing to be made to run some variant of this =E2=80=93 because I=C2=A0 have b= een told very bluntly by certain vendors that mpls style development for v6= will cease at a control plane level =E2=80=93 and we are already seeing situations where despite sr-mpls working just fine =E2= =80=93 certain vendors have actively chosen to not support this with IPv6.<= u>

<= /blockquote>

Eh, i am also an = operator of a non-trivial size network.=C2=A0 The above statements make me = concerned about your business.=C2=A0

1. =C2=A0 I consider SR to be a bit of flashy marketing push b= y vendors to do things with no unique merit. One looks at a 1/2 page author= list of these SR draft and must note something here is fishy. Folks from m= y company who have no idea what SRv6 is have been asked to add their names = to the author list of SPRING drafts.=C2=A0 It is a mirage, and poor form by= the SR pushers to engage in this fake grass roots movement.=C2=A0


My bet is MPLS will not die, it is 20 years mature and not g= oing anywhere.=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s see a vendor launch a serious carrier ro= uter without MPLS....=C2=A0

=C2=A0

That has put me in a position w= here I have to be pragmatic =E2=80=93 because =E2=80=93 as an operator with= a massive network =E2=80=93 I have to be able to continue to well, operate= .=C2=A0 That leaves me needing something that finds a common ground between those who want MPLS to die = =E2=80=93 and the MPLS usage which is present, real and necessary in the wo= rld in which I operate.=C2=A0 That leaves me with needing a version of SRv6= which is usable, does not impose insane overhead, and does not fundamentally rewrite the IPv6 protocol.=C2=A0 =

=C2=A0

I have been extremely open and = honest about this =E2=80=93 I will however say =E2=80=93 that the added fun= ctionality through the network programmability =E2=80=93 all of which is ca= tered for in CRH without the need to rewrite the IPv6 specification to do it =E2=80=93 does have ot= her use cases =E2=80=93 and hence =E2=80=93 CRH actually works for us =E2= =80=93 very very well =E2=80=93 because it retains that which I need =E2=80= =93 while adding some really nice advantages on top of it.=C2=A0 But again = =E2=80=93 we have asked =E2=80=93 multiple times =E2=80=93 for the technical problems behind CRH = =E2=80=93 and the ringing in my ears is deafening from the silence.<= /p>

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Friday, 6 September 2019 11:28
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom= .com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net>; Tarek Sa= ad <tsaad.net@g= mail.com>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) <= ;zali@cisco.com>=
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi Andrew,

=C2=A0

I agree with Robert. =

CRH is nothing else than IPv6 o= ver SR-MPLS.

In the vast majority of the dep= loyments (single SP domain), one can deploy MPLS.

In a minority of cases where so= me MPLS discontinuity in the domain could exist, SR-MPLS over IP/UDP is an = adopted and deployed solution.

=C2=A0

As you stated in your original = response=E2=80=9D

=E2=80=9CNow =E2=80=93 in that case SR-MPLS would have been just fine and fran= kly speaking =E2=80=93 we were entirely happy with pure SR-MPLS and I=E2=80= =99m on record saying that I didn=E2=80=99t see much of a use case for SRv6= at all.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

I can see why you liked CRH.

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar =

=C2=A0

From: Robe= rt Raszuk <robert= @raszuk.net>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 4:01 AM
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, Srih= ari Sangli <ssa= ngli@juniper.net>, Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>, Rob Shakir <robjs= @google.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Hi Andrew,

=C2=A0

I can say that I may even agree= with some of your points. But one question I asked which no one responded = still stands ...=C2=A0

=C2=A0

SRv6+ is almost identical to SR= -MPLS with IP transport between segment nodes. Both require mapping, both r= equire changes to OAM, both require IGP extensions, both can use the same f= orwarding hardware and logic, both require almost identical operation etc .... As you know even main author of SRv6+ = agrees with all of this in the notes sent to the list.=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0

So please help me to understand= why entire industry who wants to be good IETF citizen and Industry player = should now invest a lot of resources in development, testing, shipping and = support of a solution which is just a poor mirror of something which is already available ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yes some folks were allergic to= MPLS in the past and some are still allergic to MPLS. But as someone who h= ave worked since Tag Switching early days on that piece of technology let m= e tell you that vast majority of those folks do not even understand the difference between MPLS used for transpor= t and MPLS used as forwarding demux for the applications. They just treat i= t the very same way like an evil or devil protocol which does nothing else = other then demonstrate their complete ignorance of the subject.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Yes MPLS to be used as a transp= ort is a mistake. It was not a mistake in the past as when we rolled out se= rvices which required encapsulation most platforms in the field just could = not do line rate IP encapsulation. But those days are gone. If in 1998 time frame routers could do IPv4 in IPv4 e= ncap MPLS as a transport would have never succeeded.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Then of course there was more m= istakes TDP later by IETF collaboration became LDP was a mapping protocol -= yes another mistake instead of making up front domain wide labels and exte= nded IGPs and BGP for that. Well the thought was that working on single protocol will be easier then extending = ISIS, OSPFv2 (and v3 on the radar), RIPv2, EIGRP.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But this is MPLS transport whic= h in spite of little group of folks still selling it around believe it or n= ot it is going away.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But nothing is wrong about usin= g 20 bit labels as demux for applications and services. Packet carry bits. = Nowhere in the packet even if you decode it carefully it says "I am MP= LS" ... forwarding on the boxes also uses bit lookup and if you ask your vendor they can paint it and abstract all t= he MPLS legacy in the CLI for you so you never see it.=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0

Bottom line is that I see no re= ason at all to adopt a solution which=C2=A0walks like a duck, quacks like a= duck and only carries a label "I am not a duck"

=C2=A0

Best,

R.

=C2=A0

<snip>

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--0000000000008a1c980591e314cc-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:18:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8957D120C5B for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:18:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h14r8K7vMaaG for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 638C3120C19 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id m2so5716281qkd.10 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:18:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=l5gSRcJPw12IJrjtr/uZPY2bpNDhHQNekcL1KstXumk=; b=AA/56K1cUJPLQw97BKZRiZ4TeR+gPo3sTjMV4XwPwbmlZVdQdRO0WjJoR1vnyVsff8 YmAa4Azc6tBk2m97UPqdf0CSJMb1+uKU5jOfR3SiCpLWiypDbj5Rzepj8P1UTsHFZnJr QKY3YakzOyyN7FpXCj0VAN/6ExfEvhqaN62NdhMbFJJ1VXVxOxFbbvbPe4gq03DDdw74 ZUyXUFoqStoshSZQexTAKTuDkaQ59r5sW2B0pgL5HvRA2cE+it4kxM20B4PuzCamSfbq dcCkelnZ9XPKMzcZbDLUm00uTTInrbGn9bOlKFP0OwDcG9Ibh00MM+0CM5eQeL23ffY8 o2FA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=l5gSRcJPw12IJrjtr/uZPY2bpNDhHQNekcL1KstXumk=; b=hJCnxkpTBcF3MSGJVZit2CiUHCEssDTwbhlYKEqdHZs8yQW1VJP0fBoTaia1ziqbGL pVb+EhLN5NRMfy3Q8/EwqNAtfNr9RTT4E15IA+9AwJzOtp7p1fqvY4yGpeFsRENVYX25 ywyVAeq5FCAYJYmtKaUErUaz5VZw4L3TzPm1w7VjFixqY5tEqyEE6SzEL5AXmktTr9fl 6vxh3yoarwoWY0dB7QKbt+AMf/HfQ42DBsSH2cAZTxdGdkZnBKUYGHFDqEIic38bfzmr VeecfR2zec12ex56ARzaUt2ZZazSLgOpbJ4DssQF2cLsnnSN452Mqppk4db6k+NHtWa6 /gmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXGwo7NUE0RT9KobH5/lBMfvKHwkhj0eOf9M59LAm9D45q/rFqd XVtcyLeMoBJH8jyHRXTnCxlX/0VO6i890q3t9fSYDA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyRzY0OysoTryEvrF2RzfDMemSI6YvG9ZaOx7fcL2SJS4f96nk3v5NJSrhf3cUE53nJfBnEPIhfhAvPruFQ+/M= X-Received: by 2002:a37:2784:: with SMTP id n126mr8626886qkn.302.1567779490351; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:18:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:17:55 +0200 Message-ID: To: Srihari Sangli Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Tarek Saad , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ron Bonica Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009be3b30591e31b82" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:18:19 -0000 --0000000000009be3b30591e31b82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think so. In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure real customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU issues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient. Wrong tree :) Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli wrote: > > > On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said > > > > > Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real problem ? > > > > Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its inefficient > encoding. > > > > srihari=E2=80=A6 > > --0000000000009be3b30591e31b82 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think so.=C2=A0

In OAM pack= ets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure real customer pa= ckets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU issues. So adding SRH to= it is nothing one can call inefficient.=C2=A0

Wro= ng tree :)=C2=A0

Cheers,
R.
<= br>
On Fri,= Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net> wrote:
--0000000000009be3b30591e31b82-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:19:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4EBB120C7B; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:18:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3udU_TvAuUD2; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42f.google.com (mail-pf1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C036120088; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id w22so4557022pfi.9; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:09:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=GZRMIDzm+/FchEbS4TTpMkOVQ3CgOSB79wuXnq1YYIM=; b=H7opXffze9z3YbPh3v/1RpLJiC0PDn9frEtnUToKVZl72RKWdk9CMhtvYedVbBrSdx xy5lZ2aqlbidfFXInJExCi6JeG5QupoZmtVVj7GaVd4lpZ/0DYb+OVNWB65QDdvuNZIW ScvZnjE6+AEVmUmkKXxQg2j71ekYPAqe0z1n2uEIlRd7OP+BTSg+rDHxv+hxcv8qcHxZ LxVyYxdCmu3Un2LNjyxkU22F5FH9NSI65Iwe/8RInhI8C1YNwG93bH9o1u3NL/FwbpN6 Z5IgQ/n+nVNxp3x7D27d5Qdapg8fk5BBTsuZj1yAwLFel4pc5tXs3Nxv/ATxXhMB2BBc IDeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GZRMIDzm+/FchEbS4TTpMkOVQ3CgOSB79wuXnq1YYIM=; b=meDHVrEtJIg/duwxNsRddkeH7r8lvvdk+zbc2SgAZlWu95mdk7Uo4NMCpIIs/Aizln LON1pPRw7D54g8s9vxlDXBs7j4P5nA4yr3w+RHnxf52uc5OGzm1Z+p/G6rjl0FznF9o5 IKmFMY0TK3G2qOCRJSt+IOhvRMKw87MKAxvjqAtX5ATxA6iBnQuvhL5TzRZ0dUOLULpD UDiCM8fGo+y7J11ckvT4ni8qlkGGCztHuaIhOex5uTqqjEORWVlxeJktWzPgAjd7jkDS QcATlbM4qXlN29hIr8Dgz60SgQ6MNhEBPP7DSch0kV/lWpADnuFSwQnaSXEs4i1i7M2z Fr6A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW9z97bFjLNeTTptefU1xlsxQfApP2OytI64uQlGBOlhErPnZzf QCMQGnM2tnismAB9u1Zorke5NF9d2UvrN3YNBKc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzheaGQBu4p66EH9D+tP8G0bL5Y9S9vopSfjzHiBtUjK88LC9zZSjrha6j01qHng+NJuwZE8mSrBFYE44OwPRs= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9386:: with SMTP id t6mr11053791pfe.214.1567778956173; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:09:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:09:00 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tarek Saad Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4e4f90591e2fb6e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:18:28 -0000 --000000000000c4e4f90591e2fb6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please see my elaborated note on that ... https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/qvRUp8SC2cWeIE5UhhU9aKGtpHM Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:03 PM Tarek Saad wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > > >> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily > transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane > > I=E2=80=99m little confused about the above argument =E2=80=93 given it s= tarts with don=E2=80=99t > want to use MPLS, can you clarify? > > > > Regards, > > Tarek > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Robert Raszuk < > rraszuk@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM > *To: *Ron Bonica > *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org= > > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > I think you forgot few main points in the summary: > > > > * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both > standardized and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable > implementations > > > > * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead > of SR-MPLS > > > > * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non > are available for SRv6+ > > > > * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by > control plane > > > > * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily > transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane > > > > * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will > require another set of protocol and implementation changes. > > > > * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to > IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and > industry work in this direction. > > > > With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this > point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. > > > > Thank you, > > Robert. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Folks, > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I > think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll > who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > =C2=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of h= eader > length is addressed > > =C2=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > > =C2=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinu= e > work on SRv6+. > > > > > Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --000000000000c4e4f90591e2fb6e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please see my elaborated note on that .= ..

https://m= ailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/qvRUp8SC2cWeIE5UhhU9aKGtpHM=C2=A0

Cheers,
R.=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:03 PM Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com> wrote:
=

Hi Robert,<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /span>

>> * If ope= rators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported o= ver IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

I=E2=80=99m little co= nfused about the above argument =E2=80=93 given it starts with don=E2=80=99= t want to use MPLS, can you clarify?

=C2=A0<= /span>

Regards,

Tarek

=C2=A0<= /span>

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "sprin= g@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

I think=C2=A0you forgot few main points= in the summary:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* Many operators use SR-MPLS successful= ly and it has been both standardized and successfully deployed in the netwo= rk=C2=A0with interoperable implementations=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* The overhead on the data plane of SRv= 6+ is very comparable to overhead of SR-MPLS

=C2=A0

* The control plane extensions BGP, IGP= are available for SR-MPLS and non are available for SRv6+

=C2=A0

* SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs = to prefixes to be distributed by control plane=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* If operators choose not to use MPLS t= ransport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data p= lane

=C2=A0

* Extensions for additional application= s like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require another set of protocol and implementa= tion changes.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* If there are=C2=A0vendors who do not = want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IPv6 addresses in their control plan= es let's focus standardization and industry work in this direction.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

With all of the above I think it would = be a serious mistake - at this point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in= the IETF.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thank you,

Robert.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3= :08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Folks,

=C2=A0

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2=80= =9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

But it may be time to refocus on the following:

=C2=A0

=C2=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unle= ss the problem of header length is addressed

=C2=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unansw= ered

=C2=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution<= /u>

=C2=A0

Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

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--000000000000c4e4f90591e2fb6e-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:37:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC627120C34 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:37:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9U2rKJBfsSNL for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B67C120C22 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id c9so7237620qth.9 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:37:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uY5rTqs874rkG6wryzKtNDOzStBBdAJi/JkCZUwdBus=; b=burFNt6gaO/Q6Yl+WaWLeuoRfz2jpl75zsTZ8lF36E09GMqsNF8DKOPcHYjHydqxjs B1qBxv+sJgwmxFqFQ87SGDxdBzMlKsN8Jm5H0Xc78dy8jkmHDeag9HiMJv2dEz8lyVED uc28uJRxFK7jfXbIGNZTH0xI9mXXQmamCb4mfghe24KO0TKz6/id7Ouq+cVfIjxgLtGa 7ibQzVVX9OmwmhWiFYR6InPqqvFRnxNUGoNqXKwlNsNRS05PcI8VcACdFQaVbhweHrEf 3T9IOLqQTpyajVJiORqlC9DD8++9UHG6CjKX4BA6by+a7Og4qEKCQORrWIMgHOZGfU8r qYtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uY5rTqs874rkG6wryzKtNDOzStBBdAJi/JkCZUwdBus=; b=rLa6edKozMQnxe51T0lQRpsgh5glRZLx15JrKVvsZdAqtomsf4qmH5/YWSQpsVHWpF KbHQ7nWmIm12IzSZ+Eiy7oSCp1KG7EiP5CCt7s/hYEFXCfH0FzztL3DLNs+yxQfNEIWy NPxGbp324icO4NSWZV5hzyqvmbPVz7oRop/IOoA68qclm37RKcXsSDmV86JRwCuryyE3 V6QqTC5tr2OElUQk0ORb1HgzJZEqh6rwCTw8HigRUo1XZPkl5NSPfGBNJd3vYFOLChjl 1LoZyjiitcK7EKyJxuS+bwcqWaLWLRcd7jWsS0W2Bu5PA9IcDLOlO6CmXgsAqAxpzS2d I0SA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUx3xDI/IgO7wor+cFre1Id9juObPoElPV43ke7P+0BFUmbcjZQ 9sK/NEh1Ye+d8NDQAHMLSEd7A/kvn1hKidde4FVUbw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxkT1kAr3QwUY9gn4vgJRcGDJaNNEeZc5JoxP+i20Rrpuu916CygfWuE1P2cskao6yAzvtwe0wTqpwL47DJakE= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:ee90:: with SMTP id u16mr5496574qvr.159.1567780622407; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:37:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:36:47 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tarek Saad Cc: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015af570591e35f4b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:37:08 -0000 --00000000000015af570591e35f4b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tarek, > OK, but how about traffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 transport? SRv6 or for that matter SRv6+ works on the basis of swapping dst address in the packets. So except segment endpoints all other routers in the domain are basic IPv6 nodes. It is native IPv6 transport. So I look at SR as a service enhancing transport not a transport itself. It is IMO very very bad idea to think of SR as a new transport. If you take that view of SR-MPLS_over_IP your SIDs are just 20 bits strings. The bits sitting are SRH or CRH or just behind UDP header of rfc7510 are the exact same bits. So what technically seems to be trivial by various religious and philosophical perspectives is being blown out of proportions with complete loss of real technical details under the hood. Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM Tarek Saad wrote: > Robert, > > > > If I understand your elaborate response, you hint to keeping MPLS as demu= x > for services and native IPv4/IPv6 for transport.. which may not address > bunch that religiously don=E2=80=99t want to enable MPLS. > > OK, but how about traffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 > transport? Seems SRv6+ solves that there =E2=80=93 and vanilla IPv4/v6 do= es not. > > > > Regards, > > Tarek > > > > *From: *Robert Raszuk > *Date: *Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:09 AM > *To: *Tarek Saad > *Cc: *Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.o= rg" > , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > Please see my elaborated note on that ... > > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/qvRUp8SC2cWeIE5UhhU9aKGtpHM > > > > Cheers, > > R. > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:03 PM Tarek Saad > wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > >> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily > transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane > > I=E2=80=99m little confused about the above argument =E2=80=93 given it s= tarts with don=E2=80=99t > want to use MPLS, can you clarify? > > > > Regards, > > Tarek > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Robert Raszuk < > rraszuk@gmail.com> > *Date: *Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM > *To: *Ron Bonica > *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org= > > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > I think you forgot few main points in the summary: > > > > * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both > standardized and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable > implementations > > > > * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead > of SR-MPLS > > > > * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non > are available for SRv6+ > > > > * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by > control plane > > > > * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily > transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane > > > > * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will > require another set of protocol and implementation changes. > > > > * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to > IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and > industry work in this direction. > > > > With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this > point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. > > > > Thank you, > > Robert. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Folks, > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I > think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll > who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > =C2=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of h= eader > length is addressed > > =C2=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > > =C2=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinu= e > work on SRv6+. > > > > > Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000015af570591e35f4b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tarek,

> OK, but how about traffic engineering (or source routing)= in native IPv6 transport?=C2=A0=C2=A0

= SRv6 or for that matter SRv6+ works on the basis of swapping dst address in= the packets. So except segment endpoints all other routers in the domain a= re basic IPv6 nodes. It is native IPv6 transport.=C2=A0

So I look at SR as a service enhancing transport not a transport itse= lf. It is IMO very very bad idea to think of SR as a new transport.=C2=A0

If you take that view of SR-MPLS_over_IP your SIDs = are just 20 bits strings. The bits sitting are SRH or CRH or just behind UD= P header of=C2=A0rfc7510 are the exact same bits.=C2=A0

So what technically seems to be trivial by various religious and phil= osophical perspectives is being blown out of proportions with complete loss= of real technical details under the hood.=C2=A0

C= heers,
R.




<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Fri, Sep= 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM Tarek Saad <t= saad.net@gmail.com> wrote:

Robert,=

=C2=A0<= /span>

If I understand your = elaborate response, you hint to keeping MPLS as demux for services and nati= ve IPv4/IPv6 for transport.. which may not address bunch that religiously d= on=E2=80=99t want to enable MPLS.

OK, but how about tra= ffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 transport? Seems SRv6+ = solves that there =E2=80=93 and vanilla IPv4/v6 does not.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Regards,

Tarek

=C2=A0<= /span>

From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com&g= t;
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:09 AM
To: Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" = <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.o= rg" <6man@ie= tf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

Please see my elaborated note on that .= ..

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

R.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4= :03 PM Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail..com> wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0

>> * If operators choose not to us= e MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanill= a data plane

I=E2=80=99m little confused about the above = argument =E2=80=93 given it starts with don=E2=80=99t want to use MPLS, can= you clarify?

=C2=A0

Regards,

Tarek

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of R= obert Raszuk <rra= szuk@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "sprin= g@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

I think=C2=A0yo= u forgot few main points in the summary:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* Many operator= s use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized and successful= ly deployed in the network=C2=A0with interoperable implementations=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* The overhead = on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of SR-MPLS=

=C2=A0

* The control p= lane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non are available fo= r SRv6+

=C2=A0

* SRv6+ require= s a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by control plane=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

* If operators = choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv= 4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

=C2=A0

* Extensions fo= r additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require another set of= protocol and implementation changes.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* If there are= =C2=A0vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IPv6 addres= ses in their control planes let's focus standardization and industry wo= rk in this direction.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

With all of the= above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this point of time - to c= ontinue work on SRv6+ in the IETF.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thank you,

Robert.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:

Folks,

=C2=A0

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2=80= =9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

But it may be time to refocus on the following:

=C2=A0

=C2=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of hea= der length is addressed

=C2=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered

=C2=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution

=C2=A0

Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

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--00000000000015af570591e35f4b-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:46:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643C1120C63 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LQOTazNX4MXM for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1386F120C60 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 6264CBCB0737F9DE0A94 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:46:06 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml728-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.79) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:46:05 +0100 Received: from lhreml728-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.79) by lhreml728-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:46:05 +0100 Received: from DGGEML422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.39) by lhreml728-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:46:05 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.23]) by dggeml422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:45:59 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Ron Bonica , Alexander Vainshtein , Rob Shakir , bruno.decraene CC: SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) Thread-Index: AQHVZMHMFGUqbVBtUkuTpLHav4pXOw== Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:45:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B7465dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:46:16 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B7465dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing, not only for shortening= SID list, but also for security and privacy. So I think Binding SID is a good design for any kind of Source Routing para= digm. The only problem we should discuss is that how to handle it.But I doubt the= cost of encapsulating a new IPv6 header. Regards, Cheng ________________________________ Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: Ron Bonica> To: Alexander Vainshtein>;Rob Shakir>;bruno.decraene> Cc: SPRING WG List> Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) Time: 2019-09-06 01:39:25 Hi Alexander, SRv6+ does not currently define a binding SID. If one were ever needed, it = would be easy enough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoint enco= untered a binding SID, it would: * Decrement Segments Left * Copy an IPv6 address from the SFIB to the IPv6 destination address * Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the packet. Information re= quired build that header and CRH would be found in the SFIB However, I don=92t think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding SID. A binding= SID is a shorthand that can be used to represent a list of SIDs. Since SRv= 6+ SIDs are already short, this shorthand isn=92t needed. But, again, if we ever needed a binding SID for another reason, we could ad= d it. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM To: Rob Shakir ; bruno.decraene@orange.com Cc: SPRING WG List Subject: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) Rob, Bruno and all, I have a naive question based, most probably, on insufficient understanding= of SRv6 (not to mention SRv6+). This question has been prompted by the complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 threa= d) about problems with supporting long lists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv= 6 Segment Routing Headers, and various approaches to mitigating these compl= aints. Section 5 of RFC 8402 defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that = =93he BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instantiation of which may involve a l= ist of SIDs.=94 It also explains that BSIDs facilitate better scalability= (among other things) of SR. And, as is appropriate for the architecture d= ocument, RFC 8402 does not differentiate between SR-MPLS and SRv6 in the de= finition of Binding segments. The SR-MPLS draft (already approved f= or publication as an RFC) mentions (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2)= that the node that has allocated a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR polic= y FEC-1 for which it is the head-end =93installs a transit MPLS forwarding = entry to SWAP incoming label=3D1023, with outgoing labels and outgoing inte= rface determined by the SID-List for FEC1=94. This explanation is fully com= patible with the MPLS architecture where the top label of the label stack c= an be swapped with multiple new labels. Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Binding Segments going to b= e supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+? To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding of IPv6, no equivalen= t of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with the IPv6 routing head= ers as per RFC 8200. For the reference, the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draft does not mention Binding SIDs at all. >From my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported with SRv6 or SRv6+, a = Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted. Did I miss something here? Your timely feedback would be highly appreciated. Regards, and lots of thanks in advance, Sasha Office: +972-39266302 Cell: +972-549266302 Email: Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Nick Hilliard Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM To: Rob Shakir > Cc: SPRING WG List >; 6man@ietf.org= Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Rob, Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate f= or draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further un= less the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing require= d can be satisfied in a way that works within the constraints that the oper= ational community operates within. If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from th= e global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then t= he authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortab= le changing their allocation policies to accommodate this. Nick Ron Bonica 1 September 2019 at 22:10 Hi Fernando, 6man participants should look at the following: - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01= (In particular, Sectio= ns 4 and 5) - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-= usid-02 Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: Fernando Gont Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Rob Shaki= r ; SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi, Ron, For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you p= lease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"? In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), = so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what. Thanks! Cheers, Fernando -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Fernando Gont 31 August 2019 at 21:53 Hi, Ron, For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of RFC8200 or RFC4291"? In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what. Thanks! Cheers, Fernando Ron Bonica 31 August 2019 at 21:33 Rob, The following are arguments for proceeding with SRv6+: * Efficient forwarding with deep SID lists * Operational Simplicity * SRv6+ work may finish before SRv6 Efficient forwarding with deep SID Lists ---------------------------------------------------- SR customers have stated a firm requirement to support SR paths that contai= n 8 to 12 segments. They have also stated a requirement for implementations= to forward at line speed and without consuming excessive overhead bandwid= th. SRv6, as defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy = these requirements. In order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 wo= uld require a 128-byte SRH. Even if ASICs could process such a long SRH at = line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive. Therefore, one of the four solutions that you mention below is required to= make SRv6 deployable. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is clos= e to maturity, the four competing solutions mentioned below are equally mat= ure and should be given equal consideration. The four solutions are SRv6+, uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky. Operational Simplicity ----------------------------- Network operators strive for operational simplicity. By loosely interpretin= g (and sometimes bending) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 = introduces architectural quirks that introduce operational complexity. The = following are architectural quirks of draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-head= er: * The Segment Routing Header (SRH) serves purposes other than routing. = Therefore, the SRH is sometimes required for packets that traverse the leas= t-cost path from source to destination * The SRH and the IPv6 Authentication Header are incompatible. * The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH is valid and h= ow it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination address contains o= ne locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in one particular= way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instan= tiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid. Draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming promises more architectural qui= rks. For example: * Segment endpoints can insert and/or delete IPv6 extension headers * An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers * IPv6 packets are no longer self-describing. For example, the Next Hea= der Field in the SRH can carry a value of No Next Header, even though the S= RH is followed by Ethernet payload. Other emerging drafts promise still more architectural quirks. For example,= in draft-ali-6man-spring-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH= even when Segment Left equals zero. This is because the SRH has been overl= oaded to carry OAM as well as routing information. Furthermore, draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires net= work operators to obtain address space and number their networks in a parti= cular way to make routing work. SRv6+ Work May Finish Before SRv6 work -------------------------------------------------------- SRv6+ has been implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Imp= lementation experience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. = For example, there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=92s just IPv6 a= nd IPv6 OAM just works. Furthermore, the SRv6+ specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of = RFC 8200. Therefore, as they progress through the working group, they won= =92t need to overcome the objections that are inevitably encountered when s= tretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundamental as R= FC 8200. = Thanks, = Ron From: spring On B= ehalf Of Rob Shakir Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM To: SPRING WG List Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Hi SPRING WG, Over the last 5+ years, the IETF has developed Source Packet Routing in Net= workinG (SPRING) aka Segment Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (= SRv6) data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE. These encapsulations are past WG last call (in IESG or RFC Editor). During the SPRING WG meeting at IETF 105, two presentations were related to= the reduction of the size of the SID for IPv6 dataplane: * SRv6+ / CRH -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-spring-srv6-p= lus-04 * uSID -- https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ext= ension-srv6-usid-01 During the IETF week, two additional drafts have been proposed: * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-00 * https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr-03 As we expressed during the meeting, it is important for the WG to understan= d what the aims of additional encapsulations are. Thus, we think it is impo= rtant that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the require= ments for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspect= ive of operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from th= at of the software/hardware implementation. Therefore, we would like to solicit network operators interested in SR over= the IPv6 data plane to briefly introduce their: * use case (e.g. Fast Reroute, explicit routing/TE) * forwarding performance and scaling requirements * e.g., (number of nodes, network diameter, number of SID required i= n max and average). For the latter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SID= s and shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different= (*). * if the existing SRv6 approach is not deployable in their circumstance= s, details of the requirement of a different solution is required and wheth= er this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term. As well as deployment limitations, we would like the SPRING community to br= iefly describe the platform limitations that they are seeing which limit th= e deployment of SRv6 In particular limitations related to the number of SI= Ds which can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs w= ould improve the deployments . For both of these sets of feedback if possible, please post this to the SPR= ING WG. If the information cannot be shared publicly, please send it direct= ly to the chairs & AD (Martin). This call for information will run for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a r= eminder, you can reach the SPRING chairs via spring-chairs@ietf.org and ADs via spring-ads@ietf.org. Thank you, -- Rob & Bruno (*) As expressed on the mailing list, a 128 bit SID can encode two instruct= ions a node SID and an adjacency SID hence less SID may be required. Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa= tion which is CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei= ved this transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d= elete the original and all copies thereof. ___________________________________________________________________________ --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B7465dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing, not only for shortening= SID list, but also for security and privacy.

So I think Binding SID is a good design for any kind of Source Routing para= digm.

The only problem we should discuss is that how to handle it.But I doubt the= cost of encapsulating a new IPv6 header.

Regards,
Cheng


Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com



To: Alexander Vainshtein<Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com>;Rob Shakir<robjs@google.com>;bruno.decraene<= ;bruno.decraene@orange.com= >
Cc: SPRING WG List<spring= @ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv= 6)
Time: 2019-09-06 01:39:25

Hi Alexander,

 

SRv6+ does not = currently define a binding SID. If one were ever needed, it would be easy e= nough to specify and implement. When a segment endpoint encountered a bindi= ng SID, it would:

 

  • = Decrement Segments Left
  • Copy an IPv6 address from the SFIB to the IPv6 = destination address
  • Prepend an IPv6 header with its own CRH to the pack= et. Information required build that header and CRH would be found in the SF= IB

 

However, I don=92t = think that SRv6+ will ever need a binding SID. A binding SID is a short= hand that can be used to represent a list of SIDs. Since SRv6+ SIDs are= already short, this shorthand isn=92t needed.

 

But, again, if we e= ver needed a binding SID for another reason, we could add it.

 

   &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;   Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From:= spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alexander Vainshtein
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2019 6:49 AM
To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6)=

 

Rob, Bruno and all,

I have a naive questio= n based, most probably, on insufficient understanding of SRv6 (not to menti= on SRv6+).

This question has been= prompted by the complaints (on the Beyond SRv6 thread) about problems with= supporting long lists of 128-bits of SIDs in the IPv6 Segment Routing Head= ers, and various approaches to mitigating these complaints.

 

 

Section 5 of=
 RFC 8402 defines Binding Segments (BSIDs) and says that =93he BSID is bound to an SR Policy, instantiati=
on of which may involve a list of SIDs.=94  &n=
bsp;It also explains that BSIDs facilitate better s=
calability (among other things) of SR.  And, as is appropriate for the=
 architecture document, RFC 8402 does not differentiate between SR-MPLS and=
 SRv6 in the definition of Binding segments.
 
The SR-MPLS draft (already approved for publication=
 as an RFC)  mentions (e.g., in the example in Section A.3.2) that the=
 node that has allocated a BSID label 1023 for a specific SR policy FEC-1 f=
or which it is the head-end =93installs =
a transit MPLS forwarding entry to SWAP incoming label=3D1023, with outgoin=
g labels and outgoing interface determined by the SID-List for FEC1<=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;=
 color:#1F497D">=94. This explanation is fully compatible with the MPLS arc=
hitecture where the top label of the label stack can be swapped with multip=
le new labels. 
 
Can somebody please explain how (if at all) are Bindi=
ng Segments going to be supported in SRv6 and/or in SRv6+?
To the best of my (admittedly, limited) understanding=
 of IPv6, no equivalent of the SR-MPLS handling of the BSID is allowed with=
 the IPv6 routing headers as per RFC 8200. F=
or the reference, the IPv6 Segment Routing Header draft does not mention =
Binding SIDs at all. 
 
From my POV, if Binding segments cannot be supported =
with SRv6 or SRv6+, a Technical Erratum on 8402 should posted.

 


Did I miss something h=
ere?


 


Your timely feedback w=
ould be highly appreciated.



 




Regards, and lots of t=
hanks in advance,



Sasha


 


Office: +972-39266=
302


Cell:   =
;   +972-549266302


Email:   
Alexander.Vainshtein@ecitele.com




 






From:=
 spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Nick Hilliard

Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 9:22 PM

To: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.=
com>

Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@iet=
f.org>;
6man@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.






 


Rob,



Clarifying what I wrote previously, I don't think it would be appropriate f=
or draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid to progress further un=
less the authors can demonstrate that the volume of IPv6 addressing require=
d can be satisfied in a way that
 works within the constraints that the operational community operates withi=
n.



If there is an expectation that this address space will be assigned from th=
e global unicast address block via standard RIR allocation policies, then t=
he authors will need to demonstrate that the RIRs are going to be comfortab=
le changing their allocation policies
 to accommodate this.



Nick










1 September 2019 at 22:10










Hi Fernando,



6man participants should look at the following:



- 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 (In particular, Sections 4 and 5)

- 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-us=
id-02



Ron





Juniper Business Use Only



-----Original Message-----

From: Fernando Gont <fgont@si6n=
etworks.com>


Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 4:53 PM

To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.n=
et>; Rob Shakir
<robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG=
 List 
<spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org=


Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.



Hi, Ron,



For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could you p=
lease clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation of
RFC8200 or RFC4291"?



In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly RFC2460), =
so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the same, or what.


Thanks!



Cheers,

Fernando










--

Fernando Gont

SI6 Networks

e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com<=
br>
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492







--------------------------------------------------------------------

IETF IPv6 working group mailing list

ipv6@ietf.org

Administrative Requests: 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6

--------------------------------------------------------------------=













31 August 2019 at 21:53










Hi, Ron,



For those 6man-ers that have not been following the sprin work, could

you please clarify what do you mean by "stretching the interpretation =
of

RFC8200 or RFC4291"?



In the past we have seen outright violation of RFC8200 (formerly

RFC2460), so I'm curious if there are any documents trying to do the

same, or what.



Thanks!



Cheers,

Fernando






 












31 August 2019 at 21:33








Rob,


 


The following are argu=
ments for proceeding with SRv6+:


 


    

  • Efficient forwarding with d=
eep SID lists
  • Operation=
al Simplicity
  • SRv6+=
 work may finish before SRv6


 


Efficient forwarding w=
ith deep SID Lists


----------------------=
------------------------------


 


SR customers have stat=
ed a firm requirement to support SR paths that contain 8 to 12 segments. Th=
ey have also stated a requirement for implementations to forward at line sp=
eed  and without consuming excessive
 overhead bandwidth.


 


SRv6, as defined in dr=
aft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, cannot satisfy these requirements. In=
 order to support an SR path with 8 segments, SRv6 would require a 128-byte=
 SRH. Even if ASICs could process such
 a long SRH at line speed, the bandwidth overhead would be prohibitive.


 


Therefore, one of the =
four solutions  that you mention below is required to make SRv6 deploy=
able. While draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header is close to maturity, th=
e four competing solutions mentioned below
 are equally mature and should be given equal consideration.


 


The four solutions are SRv6+,=
 uSID, draft-li and draft-mirsky.


 


Operational Simplicity=



----------------------=
------- 



Network operators stri=
ve for operational simplicity. By loosely interpreting (and sometimes bendi=
ng) the requirements of RFCs 4291 and RFC 8200, SRv6 introduces architectur=
al quirks that introduce operational
 complexity. The following are architectural quirks of  draft-ietf-6ma=
n-segment-routing-header:


 


    

  • The Segment Routing Header =
(SRH) serves purposes other than routing. Therefore, the SRH is sometimes r=
equired for packets that traverse the least-cost path from source to destin=
ation
  • The SRH and the I=
Pv6 Authentication Header are incompatible.
  • The IPv6 destination address determines whether an SRH=
 is valid and how it is processed. For example, if the IPv6 destination add=
ress contains one locally instantiated value, the SRH might be processed in=
 one particular
 way, while if the IPv6 destination address contains another locally instan=
tiated value, the SRH might be totally invalid.


 


Draft-ietf-spring-srv6=
-network-programming  promises more architectural quirks. For example:=



 


    

  • Segment endpoints can inser=
t and/or delete IPv6 extension headers
  • An IPv6 packet can contain two Segment Routing headers
    • =

  • IPv6 packets are no longer =
self-describing. For example, the Next Header Field in the SRH can carry a =
value of No Next Header, even though the SRH is followed by Ethernet payloa=
d.


 


Other emerging drafts =
promise still more architectural quirks. For example, in draft-ali-6man-spr=
ing-srv6-oam, implementations need to examine the SRH even when Segment Lef=
t equals zero. This is because the SRH
 has been overloaded to carry OAM as well as routing information.

 


Furthermore, draft-fil=
sfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid requires network operators to obta=
in address space and number their networks in a particular way to make rout=
ing work.



 


SRv6+ Work May Fin=
ish Before SRv6 work


--------------------------------------------------------

SRv6+  has be=
en implemented on LINUX and is being implemented on JUNOS. Implementation e=
xperience demonstrates that specification is fairly complete. For example, =
there is no need for an SRv6+ OAM document. It=92s
 just IPv6 and IPv6 OAM just works.


 


Furthermore, the SRv6&=
#43; specifications adhere to a strict interpretation of RFC 8200. Therefor=
e, as they progress through the working group, they won=92t need to overcom=
e the objections that are inevitably encountered
 when stretching the interpretation of a specification that is so fundament=
al as RFC 8200.


 


   &nbs=
p;             =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
          Thanks,<=
/p>

   &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;             =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp;            =
            &nb=
sp; Ron


 


 


 


 

 


 


From: spring
<spring-bounces@ietf.org><=
/a> On Behalf Of
Rob Shakir

Sent: Sunday, August 4, 2019 5:04 PM

To: SPRING WG List <spring@iet=
f.org>

Subject: [spring] Beyond SRv6.


 






Hi SPRING WG,


 


Over the last 5+ years, the I=
ETF has developed Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) aka Segment =
Routing for both the MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6)
 data planes. SR-MPLS may also be transported over IP in UDP or GRE.=



 


These encapsulations are past WG =
last call (in IESG or RFC Editor).


 


During the SPRING WG meeting at I=
ETF 105, two presentations were related to the reduction of the size of the=
 SID for IPv6 dataplane:



 


During the IETF week, two additio=
nal drafts have been proposed:<=
/p>



 


As we expressed during the meetin=
g, it is important for the WG to understand what the aims of additional enc=
apsulations are. Thus, we think it is important
 that the WG should first get to a common understanding on the requirements=
 for a new IPv6 data plane with a smaller SID - both from the perspective o=
f operators that are looking to deploy these technologies, and from that of=
 the software/hardware implementation.=



 


Therefore, we would like to solic=
it network operators interested in SR over the IPv6 data plane to briefly i=
ntroduce their:


    

  • use case (e.g. Fast Re=
route, explicit routing/TE)
  • forwarding performance and scaling requirements


    

      

    • e.g., (number of nodes=
, network diameter, number of SID required in max and average). For the lat=
ter, if possible using both SRv6 128-bit SIDs and
 shorter (e.g. 32-bit) SIDs as the number would typically be different (*).=

    



    

  • if the existing SRv6 a=
pproach is not deployable in their circumstances, details of the requiremen=
t of a different solution is required and whether
 this solution is needed for the short term only or for the long term.


 


As well as deployment limitations=
, we would like the SPRING community to briefly describe the platform limit=
ations that they are seeing which limit the deployment
 of SRv6  In particular limitations related to the number of SIDs whic=
h can be pushed and forwarded and how much the use of shorter SIDs would im=
prove the deployments .


 


For both of these sets of feedbac=
k if possible, please post this to the SPRING WG. If the information cannot=
 be shared publicly, please send it directly to
 the chairs & AD (Martin).<=
/p>

 


This call for information will ru=
n for four weeks, up to 2019/09/03. As a reminder, you can reach the SPRING=
 chairs via
spring-chairs@ietf.org =
and ADs via
spring-ads@ietf.org. =



 


Thank you,


-- Rob & Bruno


 


(*) As expressed on the mailing l=
ist, a 128 bit SID can encode two instructions a node SID and an adjacency =
SID hence less SID may be required.


 


 



Juniper Business Use Only






&=
nbsp;




--------------------------------=
------------------------------------

IETF IPv6 working group mailing list

ipv6@ietf.org

Administrative Requests: 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6

--------------------------------------------------------------------=









 




___________________________________________________________________________=




This e-mail message is intended for the recipient only and contains informa=
tion which is


CONFIDENTIAL and which may be proprietary to ECI Telecom. If you have recei=
ved this


transmission in error, please inform us by e-mail, phone or fax, and then d=
elete the original


and all copies thereof.

___________________________________________________________________________=
--_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B7465dggeml529mbxchi_-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 07:50:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6AE120BBE for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_DNS_FOR_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZuDI7XyjONup for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E237120CDC for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 07:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id r17so7595447wme.0 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:50:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=dRMDjJdG6kSgFxrXFVPTSiUuRk3MfioDZkg6eTYJrKg=; b=LatUvkSJbLC8LhM0MrRbYaCWEY1cIaLVHbmN4Vg79+Ioh9ZDbClmxX+E7aohMF7oDt ni+LyPNOQYuivEayGTmFFaPNySvemtm5CD4EjJibWKAlUt+VeNQqQBcoymRrZwkydu/9 X6GctVgp94aemchj1nqWE2hfbTmFRoqQgMkMkoJneiAoxIIx8tpELd9/oUxNRLDoPG6d OsJ/0z8kwMaid7jaV6Cz5Jw+9VfWZRNXyxa0g9bDbWj5X4pMJqLGIhUarsrsGrWHyBne PZwqJIcHLAwiULphjdbeJ8KdnBgO05QblHJ1ClKdWpZODkTVdKKe6ksPitxa1UfMxfB4 Zpfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=dRMDjJdG6kSgFxrXFVPTSiUuRk3MfioDZkg6eTYJrKg=; b=BGLM13Eszm3DcxdSg5v06gYcaFEZ5sBhTBM7dz1bw0/kGiIKYxppmyuYNwEncDyHO9 5y8G9XzsgPk46kQMvgpE6yR3Xr53ZT0jMGEXiiq/tRSo2221WZsdDgBybtwCk0KVlGsY ufLOMBOk8WNBnbzUCj5oYI28aZt64GQYZSP+BJWM2P3ovaOiEpg/XBXBoUmJP2H8dIXn nq5LOrRkTdLgcU38+ayI308WLh2ZDBsHkGMRcdykdCwn9hZAmS4LU15Uq1WWyrZeQ2oL RACcisSC0F5O5XFdKrtvwJKsmxC0ohd0FuAfUVKNn2K2O1ovYR2iRCkdrhhVKZ0sp2rW kMsw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUmjjHbbTYeul0PH/N1DziL5VXGTWed3dBkrlt+okfJhKddEM4h RRabLjlvwdoxnjaweE8A/I5Lta2v0r7KnuwBSLSw/PJIx7Y= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyOeJtIYsguqPhxz7p6/zNLIVSemEjqLTfWc8VATu6W4fXSYE9qf6dylZVasSrErXvestoWKbGxEXf1EZrNCiQ= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:9a46:: with SMTP id c67mr7579442wme.115.1567781427870; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 07:50:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dirk Steinberg Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:50:17 +0200 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk , SPRING WG List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001812f00591e38fd5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 14:50:41 -0000 --0000000000001812f00591e38fd5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Robert 100%. If you want to use MPLS with IPv6, fine go ahead and do so. All you need is already there. No need to re-invent MPLS over UDP using a different encapsulation inappropriately named "SRv6+". SRv6 provides many distinct advantages over MPLS but nobody is forced to use it. But for those who do, let us continue to work on advancing SRv6 with uSID. Cheers Dirk If you don't like On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:37 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi Tarek, > > > OK, but how about traffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv= 6 > transport? > > SRv6 or for that matter SRv6+ works on the basis of swapping dst address > in the packets. So except segment endpoints all other routers in the doma= in > are basic IPv6 nodes. It is native IPv6 transport. > > So I look at SR as a service enhancing transport not a transport itself. > It is IMO very very bad idea to think of SR as a new transport. > > If you take that view of SR-MPLS_over_IP your SIDs are just 20 bits > strings. The bits sitting are SRH or CRH or just behind UDP header > of rfc7510 are the exact same bits. > > So what technically seems to be trivial by various religious and > philosophical perspectives is being blown out of proportions with complet= e > loss of real technical details under the hood. > > Cheers, > R. > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM Tarek Saad wrote: > >> Robert, >> >> >> >> If I understand your elaborate response, you hint to keeping MPLS as >> demux for services and native IPv4/IPv6 for transport.. which may not >> address bunch that religiously don=E2=80=99t want to enable MPLS. >> >> OK, but how about traffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 >> transport? Seems SRv6+ solves that there =E2=80=93 and vanilla IPv4/v6 d= oes not. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Tarek >> >> >> >> *From: *Robert Raszuk >> *Date: *Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:09 AM >> *To: *Tarek Saad >> *Cc: *Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.= org" >> , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> >> *Subject: *Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ >> >> >> >> Please see my elaborated note on that .... >> >> >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/qvRUp8SC2cWeIE5UhhU9aKGtpHM >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> R. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:03 PM Tarek Saad > > wrote: >> >> Hi Robert, >> >> >> >> >> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily >> transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane >> >> I=E2=80=99m little confused about the above argument =E2=80=93 given it = starts with don=E2=80=99t >> want to use MPLS, can you clarify? >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Tarek >> >> >> >> *From: *spring on behalf of Robert Raszuk < >> rraszuk@gmail.com> >> *Date: *Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM >> *To: *Ron Bonica >> *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.or= g >> > >> *Subject: *Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ >> >> >> >> Dear Ron, >> >> >> >> I think you forgot few main points in the summary: >> >> >> >> * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both >> standardized and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable >> implementations >> >> >> >> * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead >> of SR-MPLS >> >> >> >> * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and no= n >> are available for SRv6+ >> >> >> >> * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by >> control plane >> >> >> >> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily >> transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane >> >> >> >> * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will >> require another set of protocol and implementation changes. >> >> >> >> * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to >> IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and >> industry work in this direction. >> >> >> >> With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this >> point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Robert. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica > 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I >> think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, = =E2=80=9CAll >> who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> >> But it may be time to refocus on the following: >> >> >> >> =C2=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of >> header length is addressed >> >> =C2=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered >> >> =C2=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution >> >> >> >> Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to >> discontinue work on SRv6+. >> >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000001812f00591e38fd5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with Robert 100%.

If you want t= o use MPLS with IPv6, fine go ahead and=C2=A0
do so. All you need= is already there. No need to=C2=A0
re-invent MPLS over UDP using= a different encapsulation
inappropriately named "SRv6+"= ;.

SRv6 provides many distinct=C2=A0advantages ove= r MPLS
but nobody is forced to use it. But for those=C2=A0who do,=
let us continue to work on advancing SRv6 with uSID.
<= br>
Cheers
Dirk
If you don't like=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:37 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi Tarek,
=
> OK, but how about traffi= c engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 transport?=C2=A0=C2= =A0

SRv6 or for that matter SRv6+ works on the= basis of swapping dst address in the packets. So except segment endpoints = all other routers in the domain are basic IPv6 nodes. It is native IPv6 tra= nsport.=C2=A0

So I look at SR as a service enhanci= ng transport not a transport itself. It is IMO very very bad idea to think = of SR as a new transport.=C2=A0

If you take that v= iew of SR-MPLS_over_IP your SIDs are just 20 bits strings. The bits sitting= are SRH or CRH or just behind UDP header of=C2=A0rfc7510 are the exact sam= e bits.=C2=A0

So what technically seems to be triv= ial by various religious and philosophical perspectives is being blown out = of proportions with complete loss of real technical details under the hood.= =C2=A0

Cheers,
R.




On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

Robert,=

=C2=A0<= /span>

If I understand your = elaborate response, you hint to keeping MPLS as demux for services and nati= ve IPv4/IPv6 for transport.. which may not address bunch that religiously d= on=E2=80=99t want to enable MPLS.

OK, but how about tra= ffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 transport? Seems SRv6+ = solves that there =E2=80=93 and vanilla IPv4/v6 does not.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Regards,

Tarek

=C2=A0<= /span>

From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com&g= t;
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:09 AM
To: Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" = <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.o= rg" <6man@ie= tf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

Please see my elaborated note on that .= ...

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

R.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4= :03 PM Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail..com> wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0

>> * If operators choose not to us= e MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanill= a data plane

I=E2=80=99m little confused about the above = argument =E2=80=93 given it starts with don=E2=80=99t want to use MPLS, can= you clarify?

=C2=A0

Regards,

Tarek

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of R= obert Raszuk <rra= szuk@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "sprin= g@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

I think=C2=A0yo= u forgot few main points in the summary:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* Many operator= s use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized and successful= ly deployed in the network=C2=A0with interoperable implementations=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* The overhead = on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of SR-MPLS=

=C2=A0

* The control p= lane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non are available fo= r SRv6+

=C2=A0

* SRv6+ require= s a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by control plane=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

* If operators = choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv= 4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

=C2=A0

* Extensions fo= r additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require another set of= protocol and implementation changes.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* If there are= =C2=A0vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IPv6 addres= ses in their control planes let's focus standardization and industry wo= rk in this direction.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

With all of the= above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this point of time - to c= ontinue work on SRv6+ in the IETF.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thank you,

Robert.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:

Folks,

=C2=A0

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2=80= =9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

But it may be time to refocus on the following:

=C2=A0

=C2=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of hea= der length is addressed

=C2=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered

=C2=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution

=C2=A0

Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

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DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:56:36 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , Jeff Tantsura , Ron Bonica CC: Rob Shakir , bruno.decraene , SPRING WG List , Alexander Vainshtein Thread-Topic: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) Thread-Index: AQHVZMNHg+gL6BJXhkm87Mw9d8jCTw== Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:56:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6a0173ba-ae15-4aad-a584-6d5065f5f076@Spark> <0B808A53-0034-4330-8D43-81EED34C0E62@gmail.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B74E8dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Binding SID in SRv6/SRv6 (was: Beyond SRv6) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q19MgIt38-8h for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF94C120CAE for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 52941E15D270FBC3A7E2 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:07:30 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) by lhreml708-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.49) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:07:30 +0100 Received: from lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) by lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:07:29 +0100 Received: from DGGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.32) by lhreml721-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:07:29 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.23]) by DGGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::89ed:853e:30a9:2a79%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:07:24 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Dirk Steinberg , Robert Raszuk , SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: AQHVZMTKPq44KI/qTkCh6paM8frK8w== Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:07:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B757Ddggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:07:37 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B757Ddggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dirk, Agree with the understanding of MPLS over UDP. Also, I don=92t think the performance of processing TLVs in DOH will be goo= d, seems very complicated. But I will not say which compression mechanism is better, since there maybe= thousands of them, and we should not discuss this topic before requirement= s. Though we proposed a draft to describe the compressed SRH as well. Let=92s discuss the requirements before solution. ________________________________ Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: Dirk Steinberg> To: Robert Raszuk>;SPRING WG Li= st> Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Time: 2019-09-06 22:53:00 I agree with Robert 100%. If you want to use MPLS with IPv6, fine go ahead and do so. All you need is already there. No need to re-invent MPLS over UDP using a different encapsulation inappropriately named "SRv6+". SRv6 provides many distinct advantages over MPLS but nobody is forced to use it. But for those who do, let us continue to work on advancing SRv6 with uSID. Cheers Dirk If you don't like On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:37 PM Robert Raszuk > wrote: Hi Tarek, > OK, but how about traffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 = transport? SRv6 or for that matter SRv6+ works on the basis of swapping dst address in= the packets. So except segment endpoints all other routers in the domain a= re basic IPv6 nodes. It is native IPv6 transport. So I look at SR as a service enhancing transport not a transport itself. It= is IMO very very bad idea to think of SR as a new transport. If you take that view of SR-MPLS_over_IP your SIDs are just 20 bits strings= . The bits sitting are SRH or CRH or just behind UDP header of rfc7510 are = the exact same bits. So what technically seems to be trivial by various religious and philosophi= cal perspectives is being blown out of proportions with complete loss of re= al technical details under the hood. Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM Tarek Saad > wrote: Robert, If I understand your elaborate response, you hint to keeping MPLS as demux = for services and native IPv4/IPv6 for transport.. which may not address bun= ch that religiously don=92t want to enable MPLS. OK, but how about traffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 tr= ansport? Seems SRv6+ solves that there =96 and vanilla IPv4/v6 does not. Regards, Tarek From: Robert Raszuk > Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:09 AM To: Tarek Saad > Cc: Ron Bonica >, "spring@ietf.org" >, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ie= tf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Please see my elaborated note on that ..... https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/qvRUp8SC2cWeIE5UhhU9aKGtpHM Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:03 PM Tarek Saad > wrote: Hi Robert, >> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily tr= ansported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane I=92m little confused about the above argument =96 given it starts with don= =92t want to use MPLS, can you clarify? Regards, Tarek From: spring > on b= ehalf of Robert Raszuk > Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM To: Ron Bonica > Cc: "spring@ietf.org" >, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Dear Ron, I think you forgot few main points in the summary: * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized= and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implementation= s * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of= SR-MPLS * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non a= re available for SRv6+ * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by con= trol plane * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily trans= ported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require= another set of protocol and implementation changes. * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IP= v6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and indust= ry work in this direction. With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this point= of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. Thank you, Robert. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Folks, We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =93All w= ho wander are not lost.=94 But it may be time to refocus on the following: =95 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header= length is addressed =95 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered =95 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B757Ddggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dirk,

Agree with the understanding of MPLS over UDP.

Also, I don=92t think the performance of processing TLVs in DOH will be goo= d, seems very complicated.

But I will not say which compression mechanism is better, since there maybe= thousands of them, and we should not discuss this topic before requirement= s. Though we proposed a draft to describe the compressed SRH as well.

Let=92s discuss the requirements before solution.


Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com



From: Dirk Steinberg<= dirk@lapishills.com>
To: Robert Raszuk<rober= t@raszuk.net>;SPRING WG List<s= pring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+
Time: 2019-09-06 22:53:00

I agree with Robert 100%.

If you want to use MPLS with IPv6, fine go ahead and 
do so. All you need is already there. No need to 
re-invent MPLS over UDP using a different encapsulation
inappropriately named "SRv6+".

SRv6 provides many distinct advantages over MPLS
but nobody is forced to use it. But for those who do,
let us continue to work on advancing SRv6 with uSID.

Cheers
Dirk
If you don't like 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:37 PM Robert= Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> = wrote:
Hi Tarek,

> OK, but how about traffic engineer= ing (or source routing) in native IPv6 transport?  

SRv6 or for that matter SRv6+ works on the basis of swapping dst a= ddress in the packets. So except segment endpoints all other routers in the= domain are basic IPv6 nodes. It is native IPv6 transport. 

So I look at SR as a service enhancing transport not a transport itsel= f. It is IMO very very bad idea to think of SR as a new transport. 

If you take that view of SR-MPLS_over_IP your SIDs are just 20 bits st= rings. The bits sitting are SRH or CRH or just behind UDP header of rf= c7510 are the exact same bits. 

So what technically seems to be trivial by various religious and philo= sophical perspectives is being blown out of proportions with complete loss = of real technical details under the hood. 

Cheers,
R.




On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:16 PM Tarek = Saad <tsaad.net= @gmail.com> wrote:

Robert,=

 <= /span>

If I understand your = elaborate response, you hint to keeping MPLS as demux for services and nati= ve IPv4/IPv6 for transport.. which may not address bunch that religiously d= on=92t want to enable MPLS.

OK, but how about tra= ffic engineering (or source routing) in native IPv6 transport? Seems SRv6&#= 43; solves that there =96 and vanilla IPv4/v6 does not.

 <= /span>

Regards,

Tarek

 <= /span>

From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com&= gt;
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 10:09 AM
To: Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "spring@ietf.org" = <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org= " <6man@ietf.org= >
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Please see my elaborated note on that = .....

 

 

Cheers,

R. 

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4= :03 PM Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail..com> wrote:

Hi Robert,

 

>> *= If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily transp= orted over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

I=92m little confused about the above argument =96 given it starts w= ith don=92t want to use MPLS, can you clarify?

 

Regards,

Tarek

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.o= rg> on behalf of Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 9:33 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "sprin= g@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Dear Ron,

 

I think you forgot few main points = in the summary: 

 

* Many operators use SR-MPLS successfull= y and it has been both standardized and successfully deployed in the networ= k with interoperable implementations 

 

* The overhead on the data plane of SRv6= + is very comparable to overhead of SR-MPLS

 

* The control plane extensions BGP, IGP = are available for SR-MPLS and non are available for SRv6+=

 

* SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SI= Ds to prefixes to be distributed by control plane 

 

* If operators choose not to use MPLS tr= ansport SR-MPLS can be easily transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data pl= ane

 

* Extensions for additional applications= like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require another set of protocol and implementat= ion changes. 

 

* If there are vendors who do not w= ant to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IPv6 addresses in their control plane= s let's focus standardization and industry work in this direction. 

 

With all of the above I think it would b= e a serious mistake - at this point of time - to continue work on SRv6+= in the IETF. 

 

Thank you,

Robert.

 

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:0= 8 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:<= /u>

Folks,

 

We have explored many face= ts of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I think that this exploration i= s a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =93All who wander are not lost.=94=

 

But it may be time to refo= cus on the following:

 

=B7 For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of hea= der length is addressed

=B7 Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered

=B7 SRv6+ offers an alternative solution

 

Given these three facts, I= think that it would be a mistake to discontinue work on SRv6+.<= u>

 

    &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;   Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only=

--------------------------= ------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------=

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, Your comment about killing innovation in the IETF strikes me as being odd. = I never recommended shutting down SRv6 work. In fact, I support it. It is you who are asking to shut down SRv6+ work. So, who is looking to kill innovation in the IETF? Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 4:18 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Darren Dukes (ddukes) ; Fernando Gont ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Ron, > They remind us that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming are far from ma= turity. To me it actually highlights something quite contrary. It is that some folk= s are pretty far from appreciating or even grasping the value of the propos= al. In your other note you have extensively elaborated well on how to effective= ly kill innovation in IETF. If we would be following your advice there woul= d be almost non documents which build on former work and update former work= . But most importantly documenting something does not force anyone to actuall= y use it if they choose so. This entire smoke about header insertion from w= hat I have been told has some technical concerns about real source awarenes= s about say MTU issues. Well for one if I am doing insertion in my network = I better make sure I do not drop the packet based on the MTU. It is so basi= c ... of course I must clean up when I fwd the packet to other domain but t= his is basic network hygiene. In the same time folks are happy to encap + add EHs, DOs etc ... on the gro= unds that src of the encap will be in the packet. Is this sufficient .. eve= n if ICMP is sent to such src (domian ingress) I bet such domain ingress wi= ll not notify the original packet src anyway. And with encap the packet get= s much bigger anyway. But I was not part of v6 creators and I think I will keep it that way based= on that little thread we had here :) Best, R. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463E9041AB1A10A46E2A9FAAEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

Your comment about killing innovation in the IETF st= rikes me as being odd. I never recommended shutting down SRv6 work. In fact= , I support it.

 

It is you who are asking to shut down SRv6+ work= .

 

So, who is looking to kill innovation in the IETF?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>=
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 4:18 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; Fernando Gont &l= t;fgont@si6networks.com>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function=

 

Ron,

 

> They remind us that draft-ietf-spring-network-pr= ogramming are far from maturity. 

 

To me it actually highlights something quite contrary= . It is that some folks are pretty far from appreciating or even grasping t= he value of the proposal. 

 

In your other note you have extensively elaborated we= ll on how to effectively kill innovation in IETF. If we would be following = your advice there would be almost non documents which build on former work and update former work. =

 

But most importantly documenting something does not f= orce anyone to actually use it if they choose so. This entire smoke about h= eader insertion from what I have been told has some technical concerns about real source awareness about say MTU issues. = Well for one if I am doing insertion in my network I better make sure I do = not drop the packet based on the MTU. It is so basic ... of course I must c= lean up when I fwd the packet to other domain but this is basic network hygiene. 

 

In the same time folks are happy to encap + = add EHs, DOs etc ... on the grounds that src of the encap will be in the pa= cket. Is this sufficient .. even if ICMP is sent to such src (domian ingress) I bet such domain ingress will not notify the origina= l packet src anyway. And with encap the packet gets much bigger anyway.&nbs= p;

 

But I was not part of v6 creators and I think I will = keep it that way based on that little thread we had here :) 

 

Best,

R.

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB5463E9041AB1A10A46E2A9FAAEBA0BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 08:56:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7A81200E0; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3roBbvnf-pyo; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FB9B120026; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id p3so3724254pgb.9; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 08:56:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ISG4qAtTCOQjAlJunjDBpG267po45emMNW77dZuoj8Y=; b=boymPC/n3aOtIUD4ZrNx4WosEf8JnEj6MHDY+VDlDXwsiRgxf0HVmGbzFITLHi+Ve3 cSSxDNGZaEcpuvcuFxSicreBP7BWOCEyVEL+l4ByW3Cn2i94CLDw9QGvwdAz563ekeff xvKoFEgpoQip9xLSj1cz5+R5zwlYNE2L5YUf7n7xfWaHKx4gtunGI1CfjTW8euv8h54T QTMCvAqVvXo8U8R1XdKvwxKW/sbpYBTYCwfHCYcdEZj6YmDQDwoN3NrdTTQBTtOT0nKV NG57ayU/xoJYh3u12TA08S9VMcfOCkKnGVzURHoLxQzIG/CFL/vRVOEZIb4fePKbKCDj MiMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ISG4qAtTCOQjAlJunjDBpG267po45emMNW77dZuoj8Y=; b=hRRcJFg6yaSCQyKlcC1cIIHktBOlu48NjjdYvO09x06TOyEGat92uccx0Xuaw8LIOQ sP8nYWWi9mswpTXV4vfk72Uh/SaEscHiCP/4nDi5xD4+Y11BZCKPCMef0pl7apNw+HLo tKwsvdyP+XU1dsHHJ/80Q43rvnbCCi97MDySgiqZ/0WtzNYBH57zZzP4g0XzzRznxXye rsC/eNd6fssEz2mThT3ipuBdkYutc6JMh6Bl3RvzNRLgOX8hJ73dHj51pFyjqG1XOi9a CVxSTLcoHpVtgu0P+W1Z3N8Szf3BzrU5bQCR3mICjF3b2ueY6SCnN9faY4oDP7lTHsKN uE2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWE6gSkr0lIoymWGlYp0cHCBHQw2zU1894RyOamICmly+Pvm8KL QE/OQUsy//9l/5gu2hMvU6E9rf6iPNg8OexpNB8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJgYMQitOk20Nq91BsM25nmTm1bjpB9hT59XmUrNEQcA7dBEJ8znRjSTBPvZkaciXGpg45gv+4vScY8u72XFw= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9688:: with SMTP id f8mr11071921pfk.77.1567785363014; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 08:56:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 17:55:47 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a589450591e47917" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:56:07 -0000 --000000000000a589450591e47917 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Well the term "*shut* *down"* is not precise here. IETF can not shut any work .. you can keep working on anything you like and keep submitting individual drafts for it. If you are nice to an AD he me even sponsor it for publication. SPRING WG however already has spectrum of mature solutions which address the problem space - so adopting new proposal now would be more of distraction then anything else. Also note that SPRING WG adoption will have an avalanche effect as number of WGs are waiting for SPRING to consider SRv6+ related drafts to be adopted or not. Thank you, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:47 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > Your comment about killing innovation in the IETF strikes me as being odd. > I never recommended shutting down SRv6 work. In fact, I support it. > > > > It is you who are asking to shut down SRv6+ work. > > > > So, who is looking to kill innovation in the IETF? > > > > Ron > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Friday, September 6, 2019 4:18 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* Darren Dukes (ddukes) ; Fernando Gont < > fgont@si6networks.com>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function > > > > Ron, > > > > > They remind us that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming are far from > maturity. > > > > To me it actually highlights something quite contrary. It is that some > folks are pretty far from appreciating or even grasping the value of the > proposal. > > > > In your other note you have extensively elaborated well on how to > effectively kill innovation in IETF. If we would be following your advice > there would be almost non documents which build on former work and update > former work. > > > > But most importantly documenting something does not force anyone to > actually use it if they choose so. This entire smoke about header insertion > from what I have been told has some technical concerns about real source > awareness about say MTU issues. Well for one if I am doing insertion in my > network I better make sure I do not drop the packet based on the MTU. It is > so basic ... of course I must clean up when I fwd the packet to other > domain but this is basic network hygiene. > > > > In the same time folks are happy to encap + add EHs, DOs etc ... on the > grounds that src of the encap will be in the packet. Is this sufficient .. > even if ICMP is sent to such src (domian ingress) I bet such domain ingress > will not notify the original packet src anyway. And with encap the packet > gets much bigger anyway. > > > > But I was not part of v6 creators and I think I will keep it that way > based on that little thread we had here :) > > > > Best, > > R. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > --000000000000a589450591e47917 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well the t= erm "shut=C2=A0down" is not precise here. IETF can = not shut any work .. you can keep working on anything you like and keep sub= mitting individual drafts for it. If you are nice to an AD he me even spons= or it for publication.=C2=A0

SPRING WG however already has spectrum of mature solutions which a= ddress the problem space - so adopting new proposal now would be more of di= straction then anything else. Also note that SPRING WG adoption will have a= n avalanche effect as number of WGs are waiting for SPRING to consider SRv6= + related drafts to be adopted or not.=C2=A0

Thank you,
R.


On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:47 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

Your comment about killing innovation in the IETF st= rikes me as being odd. I never recommended shutting down SRv6 work. In fact= , I support it.

=C2=A0

It is you who are asking to shut down SRv6+ work.=

=C2=A0

So, who is looking to kill innovation in the IETF?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 4:18 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>; = spring@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function<= /u>

=C2=A0

Ron,

=C2=A0

> They remind us that draft-ietf-spring-network-programming are = far from maturity.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

To me it actually highlights something quite contrary. It is that s= ome folks are pretty far from appreciating or even grasping the value of th= e proposal.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In your other note you have extensively elaborated well on how to e= ffectively kill innovation in IETF. If we would be following your advice th= ere would be almost non documents which build on former work and update former work.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But most importantly documenting something does not force anyone to= actually use it if they choose so. This entire smoke about header insertio= n from what I have been told has some technical concerns about real source awareness about say MTU issues. = Well for one if I am doing insertion in my network I better make sure I do = not drop the packet based on the MTU. It is so basic ... of course I must c= lean up when I fwd the packet to other domain but this is basic network hygiene.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

In the same time folks are happy to encap=C2=A0+ add EHs, DOs etc .= .. on the grounds that src of the encap will be in the packet. Is this suff= icient .. even if ICMP is sent to such src (domian ingress) I bet such domain ingress will not notify the origina= l packet src anyway. And with encap the packet gets much bigger anyway.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

But I was not part of v6 creators and I think I will keep it that w= ay based on that little thread we had here :)=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

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boundary="_000_VE1PR03MB542230E54FEB8E9ABFC87F54EEBA0VE1PR03MB5422eurp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 16:03:20 -0000 --_000_VE1PR03MB542230E54FEB8E9ABFC87F54EEBA0VE1PR03MB5422eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I second this - and I was extremely clear in my email to spring a few weeks= ago - I believe that there is place for both srv6+ and the alternatives - = especially since I point out that srv6+ solves an overhead problem that was= not solved by srh or the programming draft - and actually pre-dates the us= id mechanism. Do I believe that the NP draft needs work to bring it inline with the conse= nsus agreed approach to rfc8200 and potentially an update to rfc4291 needs = to be done to sort out the semantic issues? Certainly - but that is not to = say I want the work to stop - on the contrary - I have said it before - and= will say it again - I believe we should work on both - and potentially hav= e an interop draft where necessary - and then - let the operators make the = choice as to which they wish to use. There are people on this list who can attest to the fact that I broached th= e subject of interop with several vendors - and even the authors of some of= the drafts under discussion - and I am more than happy to do the work on t= his if people are willing to join the effort. Andrew Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP Strategy ________________________________ From: ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 18:50 To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Fernando Gont; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function Robert, Your comment about killing innovation in the IETF strikes me as being odd. = I never recommended shutting down SRv6 work. In fact, I support it. It is you who are asking to shut down SRv6+ work.. So, who is looking to kill innovation in the IETF? Ron --_000_VE1PR03MB542230E54FEB8E9ABFC87F54EEBA0VE1PR03MB5422eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I second this - and I was extremely clear in my email to spring a few = weeks ago - I believe that there is place for both srv6+ and the altern= atives - especially since I point out that srv6+ solves an overhead pro= blem that was not solved by srh or the programming draft - and actually pre-dates the usid mechanism.

Do I believe that the NP draft needs work to= bring it inline with the consensus agreed approach to rfc8200 and potentia= lly an update to rfc4291 needs to be done to sort out the semantic issues? = Certainly - but that is not to say I want the work to stop - on the contrary - I have said it before - and wi= ll say it again - I believe we should work on both - and potentially have a= n interop draft where necessary - and then - let the operators make the cho= ice as to which they wish to use.

There are people on this list who can attest= to the fact that I broached the subject of interop with several vendors - = and even the authors of some of the drafts under discussion - and I am more= than happy to do the work on this if people are willing to join the effort.

Andrew 

Liquid Telecommunications - Group Head Of IP= Strategy
From: ipv= 6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40jun= iper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 18:50
To: Robert Raszuk
Cc: Fernando Gont; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function
 

Robert,

 

Your comment about killing innovation in the IETF st= rikes me as being odd. I never recommended shutting down SRv6 work. In fact= , I support it.

 

It is you who are asking to shut down SRv6+ work= ..

 

So, who is looking to kill innovation in the IETF?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 


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spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033C3120A45 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 12:13:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iVi18t70Idxu for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 12:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA1-Wyn.bell.ca (esa1-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31B1D120A3F for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 12:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm5cch-d00.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX02-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.30]) by esa01corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 06 Sep 2019 15:13:21 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX02-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120c::8eb6:120c) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:13:21 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::c426:98cc:c3a7:f8d2]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::c426:98cc:c3a7:f8d2%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:13:21 -0400 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: Dirk Steinberg , Robert Raszuk , SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: AQHVZLvYJDuI3UW+akmNVX9RiIapizA3MjUzhokhUACAAAHeFp8UHdyAgAADxoCAAAZuAA== Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:13:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1c.0.190812 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Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A7B120DBE; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 12:56:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Secretariat To: Cc: spring@ietf.org, ipr-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.100.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <156779979417.21941.8231654815664602600@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 12:56:34 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] IPR Disclosure Cisco's Statement about IPR related to draft-guichard-spring-nsh-sr X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 19:56:34 -0000 Dear Jim Guichard, Haoyu Song, Jeff Tantsura, Joel M. Halpern, Wim Henderickx, Mohamed Boucadair, Syed Hassan: An IPR disclosure that pertains to your Internet-Draft entitled "NSH and Segment Routing Integration for Service Function Chaining (SFC)" (draft-guichard-spring-nsh-sr) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/3695/). The title of the IPR disclosure is "Cisco's Statement about IPR related to draft-guichard-spring-nsh-sr" Thank you IETF Secretariat From nobody Fri Sep 6 14:12:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1B70120E10; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:12:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FpQD9pGB6z1F; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45762120DE6; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8094B; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:12:12 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1567804329; bh=sypoCILAWt+QFQtfWhy IC7S8JhBHqi/jCT7mLD86+oc=; b=rbVOtPnd6OP4VZ2UTJ2pP+V5sMHj/2TQMn8 HYv4dgKW7IEUfk27bTcGc7mnZSkTjP+jlbBC6phoBp5KQCMGcgCewlWr12IRj73f VzDx3M+koZqlo12mTEPBbLdS53Q/lPeQVCcbe0ICciBr42D89+ys1SgaV/bD1Idu 8Tk19bMY= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id yZJ_8xgJsmKM; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:12:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.87.1.171] (unknown [145.15.244.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 498613C; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:12:07 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_602693D1-06DA-493D-B284-6D97E82BAB4B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:11:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3D8725E7-EAA3-4615-ABA2-FFA53D2F1B14@employees.org> Cc: Fernando Gont , 6man WG , Alexandre Petrescu , "spring@ietf.org" To: Ole Troan References: <3D8725E7-EAA3-4615-ABA2-FFA53D2F1B14@employees.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:12:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_602693D1-06DA-493D-B284-6D97E82BAB4B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Ole, > I think you have repeatedly made your point. Yes he has, and he makes a good point that should be heard. Your = argument of "RFCs aren't the law, and we can ignore parts of them if it = suits us" just isn't true. RFCs are based on consensus, and ignoring the = outcome of that consensus when it suits you is unacceptable for a WG = chair. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_602693D1-06DA-493D-B284-6D97E82BAB4B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEKBusetbVKSypyi4qHuGLwtPIfLYFAl1yy5oACgkQHuGLwtPI fLa5/wf/XbhRb0UPmjDSWYavRQbRSMngN9h6SIg2aVhsXlhxY4JLAqnVAP03+RcO oJLeyvdCy1fFFwC8kua4UUNwCaS5cQDodjTYcDa9IHHrI7CUPfeNNja/qM9pV6LE jUpdiqDjW0GXOa/20lIVigHG14Tqg5otyYZAkeY0kaD7W3Q5AlOIW39+ppb8kxYJ rNsVlBZ/x+Vc9v289SYye1Ni0rfHqXEIGrm1fjVwohwBzN+gpuD/l1Fcx1RxITzh Q4G0jhUEEd+UwqHQOP6uWPMHrla7qRo6tYiybd1rtDPVgLCDVLihOVov7U9reH03 0odPzwSxfN1PLMNBOE46n8hKU6uJhg== =HfnJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_602693D1-06DA-493D-B284-6D97E82BAB4B-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 14:25:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD389120DEC; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IufvCfwHeGfz; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 809D3120868; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.189] (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5865A4E11AEE; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 21:25:46 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ole Troan Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:25:44 +0200 Message-Id: References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> Cc: Fernando Gont , 6man WG , Alexandre Petrescu , "spring@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> To: Sander Steffann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A5821e) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:25:49 -0000 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> I think you have repeatedly made your point. >=20 > Yes he has, and he makes a good point that should be heard. Your argument o= f "RFCs aren't the law, and we can ignore parts of them if it suits us" just= isn't true. RFCs are based on consensus, and ignoring the outcome of that c= onsensus when it suits you is unacceptable for a WG chair. Then I don=E2=80=99t think I have expressed myself in a way that has been un= derstood by you.=20 But he isn=E2=80=99t making a point that hasn=E2=80=99t been made many times= before. I asked him to argue his point in the context of the actual drafts i= n question, which I believe he did not. The protocol police rhetoric used in= the wider community doesn=E2=80=99t appear to me to add value, rather creat= e disruption.=20 =20 I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta issues, but since= you framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I found it required to= reply.=20 Ole= From nobody Fri Sep 6 14:58:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6960120DF4; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:58:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bsuoL8Nm8prr; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D33E8120DEE; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 14:58:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D3B4B; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:58:03 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date:date :in-reply-to:x-mailer:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1567807080; bh=IMoBqkgvfnNzaJV2plJwEGuy0cBcrpqfutl3JPiibbY=; b=G YwaJyMilyCup/Zl92wTIIarzhX7bqF39Z35ujkNFng6kMnZffPayEysdaKB4PqCz ygU9odzyQBHVRVYzr47dJNe+7tNK9RNKsEiHHywsdRRHO8N2z2lBQmHeb7D7Z3+J /ccaRR1vJMLz/8tTVJKvHCbiBbSmJ8bJr9qPmPsZcM= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id eWW9lxyFgrth; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:58:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:30d9:a3ba:cef:60ff] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:30d9:a3ba:cef:60ff]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A883C3C; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:58:00 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:57:59 +0200 Cc: Fernando Gont , 6man WG , Alexandre Petrescu , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> To: Ole Troan Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:58:08 -0000 Hi Ole, > I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta issues, but sin= ce you framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I found it required t= o reply.=20 I expect the chair to uphold a previously reached consensus and put the requ= irement of justifying deviating from it with the ones that want to go agains= t said consensus. Cheers, Sander From nobody Fri Sep 6 15:08:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 158CA120DFD; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:08:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YdNUvCi9__e9; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85AF0120DFB; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.189] (30.51-175-112.customer.lyse.net [51.175.112.30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 08F164E11B0A; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:08:17 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Ole Troan Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:08:14 +0200 Message-Id: <4246BC68-CD23-4D51-9E41-5812AAD5F3D4@employees.org> References: Cc: Fernando Gont , 6man WG , Alexandre Petrescu , "spring@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: To: Sander Steffann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A5821e) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:08:20 -0000 >> I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta issues, but si= nce you framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I found it required= to reply.=20 >=20 > I expect the chair to uphold a previously reached consensus and put the re= quirement of justifying deviating from it with the ones that want to go agai= nst said consensus. Proposals are judged on their merits.=20 There is no protocol police.=20 These proposals are not moving as far as I can see. So what are you trying t= o achieve by getting your collective knickers in a twist now? Ole= From nobody Fri Sep 6 15:11:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15021120DFA for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:11:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Axo5Hyjnhw6h for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E164120E02 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id l22so8941435qtp.10 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:11:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NCi/VJ711GvBBgubgoFtMpQWuTjO4xha4M0O2Xt6UP0=; b=PKF6BTR65c6sh3yjOQ2eSvMDryH5CYGnQPE+5FsZ6vFmP1Qq95fMiVNfJ0VxT7WEWi vXr+8xKHsIUxMVDMEM5lB3rPOMjp4rRLv5M31WPoBTbzk6PkqqE+QBUrZGefuIwGBObk n+KKMBUsrikjBP4KKolZZEP/voMBo/LHjUWcR4Ckr6CnKZqd4oqHyyVqD5kNe/cnucDh 0UKqFL/4OkOJIE8IG4XF8ztXPnoy17zx3U5mp1d17umMRLGcSZ1D5zJiNpWzor758hxR r2piCkTnnaxoNiTfra7XxTHgo6+TK6sB26+xSw4clipyQQpofwoYVg3evJbGrc8lvoR9 GkTQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NCi/VJ711GvBBgubgoFtMpQWuTjO4xha4M0O2Xt6UP0=; b=U0hA+vRI4EvI+9RrDkT31hmqpwbu2awMjawn3dbCuDFiltkdfnFXI/mW9fgag2sZ92 zZfjKeJ3YRfuwHlz6Xbuzn9fue04AkwPsvdHKRMW+j/ndTKJXl9VWJZbm7R6dp91uemZ c/OFV+krKVpNe0sIGKVX3DxgJSoayoCd6m+UeaqZhUe6m3w0tlUHrODx28dTMxhxScvm Kezi63kVjY7PXeRElzBivRsbLIYLlROxZeEBFSjxq5GydEmSKsroup2YYIk8OstWPqTo /jlO9r4aG59SAknEAr+E8o/7o6hfd+EGjnx97hJqX6mPUaAc0qnmSxG8pPK/BElGNVQ1 H9dQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVDZrZlAJQ0nsbc1Lwqi6iRZO44hUUjhQJt159Zq57ONOExMryi ZTIZ5XhUU2P7lipq4pqoJ6LGKXoc2nvwQfpIu5ziEg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxwp3CFSED45KXQ72WNnbZC5KS3mJTdcNDtc9c0wlSnbOvoUSccXWN7rcSdD8PekOW4RZGYFdigcCrIBdn2tzo= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7959:: with SMTP id r25mr11760068qtt.208.1567807878005; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:11:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:11:07 +0200 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a5204f0591e9b764" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:11:22 -0000 --000000000000a5204f0591e9b764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sander, But this is exactly what both chairs of 6man did with the help of AD long time back. You must have missed it ! And below is a link precisely written to address requirement of justifying deviation: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-06 And let me repeat one more and last time ... all other documents in progress use two different insertions. Most of them does SRH insertion + new IPv6 encapsulation which is allowed by all IPv6 related RFCs - so zero violation of any consensus. Just NP document also adds two functions for insertion without encapsulation, as additional tools which can be used for things like FRR if such application will be approved in 6man WG. All SRv6 existing specs can progress just fine with that last mode of insertion being removed if rough consensus in 6man would not get reached. Cheers, Robert. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 11:58 PM Sander Steffann wrote: > Hi Ole, > > > I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta issues, but = since you > framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I found it required to > reply. > > I expect the chair to uphold a previously reached consensus and put the > requirement of justifying deviating from it with the ones that want to go > against said consensus. > > Cheers, > Sander > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000a5204f0591e9b764 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sander,

But this is exactly what both c= hairs of 6man did with the help of AD long time back. You must have missed = it !

And below is a link precisely written to addr= ess requirement of justifying deviation:=C2=A0


And let me repeat one more and = last time ... all other documents in progress use two different insertions.= Most of them does SRH insertion=C2=A0+ new IPv6 encapsulation which is all= owed by all IPv6 related RFCs - so zero violation of any consensus.=C2=A0

Just NP document also adds two functions for insert= ion without encapsulation, as additional tools which can be used for things= like FRR if such application will be approved in 6man WG.=C2=A0
=
All SRv6 existing specs can progress just fine with that las= t mode of insertion being removed if rough consensus in 6man would not get = reached.=C2=A0

Cheers,
Robert.


On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 11:58 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi Ole,

> I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta issues, but= since you framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I found it requ= ired to reply.

I expect the chair to uphold a previously reached consensus and put the req= uirement of justifying deviating from it with the ones that want to go agai= nst said consensus.

Cheers,
Sander


_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--000000000000a5204f0591e9b764-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 15:19:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55733120E08; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:19:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1orUHQKcgObD; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B22E0120DFA; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D29E4B; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:19:51 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date:date :in-reply-to:x-mailer:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1567808389; bh=W2ncv2HBNqyrKvnmqkrcsTUYwjHee2Umo6ilNZAdiJA=; b=P xdGIebKWSdbX1SSBV5oK/1lPN0aXFmV3NAMSVDH4IGtvzTU01yCnqkP27dBStN44 WGhYa2MK+Si1aDYaN303jMsIYCiOMwp0duFWUEtLJm56VokiyOerMS5UFJUOskww nZNtDtU7ChJYgGde+RP4ffEoxbWaOuTd0pjHRWLYQ4= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id alJYJpKYHook; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:19:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:30d9:a3ba:cef:60ff] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:30d9:a3ba:cef:60ff]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B79A53C; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:19:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <4246BC68-CD23-4D51-9E41-5812AAD5F3D4@employees.org> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:19:48 +0200 Cc: Fernando Gont , 6man WG , Alexandre Petrescu , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0D67ABBC-1EEE-4C54-AB26-148A93A57C0F@steffann.nl> References: <4246BC68-CD23-4D51-9E41-5812AAD5F3D4@employees.org> To: Ole Troan Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:19:54 -0000 Hi Ole, > Proposals are judged on their merits.=20 > There is no protocol police.=20 There is existing consensus, and changing that requires consensus on the cha= nges. The onus is on those wanting the change, yet you demand the ones refer= ring to the existing consensus to defend themselves. That is not their respo= nsibility. > These proposals are not moving as far as I can see. So what are you trying= to achieve by getting your collective knickers in a twist now? Seeing extremely bad precedent being set by a chair. Chairs have the respons= ibility to stand up for the consensus in their working group. Always. No mat= ter their personal opinion. No matter who they work for. Always. The discussion has been had, consensus has been reached. Requiring someone e= lse to defend an existing consensus is disrespectful to the working group th= at worked towards that consensus. Sander From nobody Fri Sep 6 15:23:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2AD120E0B; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:23:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YXyUbGz9stlC; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97F26120DFA; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671774B; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:23:50 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date:date :in-reply-to:x-mailer:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1567808628; bh=VybTpo7/QjwSWgWxhIbsIRFULKfLOlhpU6RnKLVXBzQ=; b=n r5vUOfCG27YQ//SuzrCfgy1rV/ds2ATALQ7bnec4AZ6FO7nkcOL/g08tnQoxr71I P1QM/nnXBeCyngc3KcQ89jAXjo3WvzSIeeM/2rNFrZhFIPXdhn2DYbC/0GvfPoc8 Bmt0fHmxjUPJri16C0T0KWy/ZidnvKaNPdMPv4ioSc= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id xUOPh7lYO7EJ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:23:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:30d9:a3ba:cef:60ff] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:30d9:a3ba:cef:60ff]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4798C3C; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:23:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:23:47 +0200 Cc: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <25C52EC3-E271-46FF-90FB-976AE6022098@steffann.nl> References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> To: Robert Raszuk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:23:53 -0000 Hi Robert, > All SRv6 existing specs can progress just fine with that last mode of inse= rtion being removed if rough consensus in 6man would not get reached.=20 My problem is that Fernando is being told to defend the existing RFC. That i= s wrong. It is up to the SRv6 proposers to argue and defend the changes they= want. Consensus has to be reached to make a change, not to keep the current consen= sus. Cheers, Sander From nobody Fri Sep 6 15:27:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61071120E13 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:27:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fIkds-s4p-Jx for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C350120E0B for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id p2so6713046edx.11 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:27:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ftYbA7dX1l5WM+HucczE1G+SPljeKRmffWJHqMsD0tE=; b=S6mNItsTEkt7GWp2L1rZPFT0jGAJjCGo5v4k1iFqV7yzAtTNROCdqRP14ryasdFwkn r3p6Y/UnZ9s2HxFhA1QqKrRdFazbtcj7QH2JbSMOGHZetO/ZLwW+kBUj7uhnOcE15IWO y4Kf/6sS8h4HJZFCs6hRmDw56LgiSl2Aysc8G/3F1jgM0aeRNeNi11EeC0YEgY5hfBZj J6tC6fUxYLG/PI4CVgPM/GpEI3mQczZqPsRH2S9xp4mPv6poueH3i9hpCIFQs/jcbjHx ODBRPIM1jCyUQxyzvYhf2wbduYokUQvsn4qkCt/H+ItNI0v3J1V8nTJpQaA+flWx3sVz yrCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ftYbA7dX1l5WM+HucczE1G+SPljeKRmffWJHqMsD0tE=; b=reWeXue2RmC0zpA8SqXoI+krnFSinbaYR86j3LsxSJyuLXhtkWxYBHtl++6XopK5rp AgxE7AYSuu6oVAREm31u56mGJlKRkeusUrYsS8mRBgRjJ/FjL2NAzSL3iDPdUOxkA9bO jKaJRee1TTbxRHthF+eQu19wf/1zXOCJvDX6tjOjazyUauJ+Ir/3jWTVm1KOheYGYmiz //ntOKggWjLAKWCx8GVZh0IXKEUnLw+o34w9dGUGjqGvM4MACmZfr99RNyIIHWwlsH8W mJ1V7LIYlDoXQxZHjAdEdWGlQMVZbljgnD0ykCMA26H4wxQmY9d5Ti9s5X2qamTylb6w 29DA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXn6osFcmpg2NMc1ZoMerKOGoQIdKru5J9bgeqLZNxrPy157P92 1juAiSpVd8NhHeBEyIsnyb1xpZuCkDMLfqEHXts+qA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy7t6RKxKGT5vMw1BJuw68FXv7WsIcbtJapusnYDZvV5GqB5kkzLtPWGbZ3MADSmMcNQ5pcV6L7J08XkYRigVs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:30d1:: with SMTP id b17mr9664367ejb.9.1567808830819; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:27:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4246BC68-CD23-4D51-9E41-5812AAD5F3D4@employees.org> <0D67ABBC-1EEE-4C54-AB26-148A93A57C0F@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: <0D67ABBC-1EEE-4C54-AB26-148A93A57C0F@steffann.nl> From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:26:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:27:14 -0000 On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:20 PM Sander Steffann wrote: > > Hi Ole, > > > Proposals are judged on their merits. > > There is no protocol police. > > There is existing consensus, and changing that requires consensus on the changes. The onus is on those wanting the change, yet you demand the ones referring to the existing consensus to defend themselves. That is not their responsibility. > > > These proposals are not moving as far as I can see. So what are you trying to achieve by getting your collective knickers in a twist now? > > Seeing extremely bad precedent being set by a chair. Chairs have the responsibility to stand up for the consensus in their working group. Always. No matter their personal opinion. No matter who they work for. Always. > > The discussion has been had, consensus has been reached. Requiring someone else to defend an existing consensus is disrespectful to the working group that worked towards that consensus. > What consensus has been reached that you are referring to? Tom > Sander > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Sep 6 15:28:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62601120E12; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AG8y3JurtQ7p; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D230120E0E; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:28:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: spring@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.foobar.org (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x86MSGcD097114 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:28:16 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.foobar.org To: Tom Herbert Cc: Sander Steffann , "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG References: <4246BC68-CD23-4D51-9E41-5812AAD5F3D4@employees.org> <0D67ABBC-1EEE-4C54-AB26-148A93A57C0F@steffann.nl> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <80a4c498-b962-4b68-0e77-42679b3f39ec@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:28:15 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/6.1.18 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:28:22 -0000 Tom Herbert wrote on 06/09/2019 23:26: > What consensus has been reached that you are referring to? rfc8200. Nick From nobody Fri Sep 6 15:28:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DF3120E0E; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:28:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rMdyP_L-iYAv; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B3A9120E49; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9A64B; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:28:35 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date:date :in-reply-to:x-mailer:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1567808914; bh=bFF315BpTUAR/ThEt8eh5FSkpvFSlgjBb139y736ECE=; b=B RH+dgHbLwjOckqCGivp2JC88Y6piX97FsZfRypMjeP1P3+B8kmYgqJS2SVq9lCtE 8qMSx9RrfDCWy/ijyoUEx+PdXoOw5DlSTLcDnWRBoveUCSWhAJpGkeFvvZ3LZUqc s2fQO5XAxpCs2PIUxP7eqBk2o83eij28D3U285ojPA= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id G8Z5mQLJXQ4y; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:28:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:30d9:a3ba:cef:60ff] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:30d9:a3ba:cef:60ff]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CCC923C; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:28:33 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:28:33 +0200 Cc: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0446757F-3B41-4F3A-92F4-1B9A3A7B6F88@steffann.nl> References: <4246BC68-CD23-4D51-9E41-5812AAD5F3D4@employees.org> <0D67ABBC-1EEE-4C54-AB26-148A93A57C0F@steffann.nl> To: Tom Herbert Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:28:43 -0000 Hi, > What consensus has been reached that you are referring to? The consensus on the text of RFC8200. Cheers, sander From nobody Fri Sep 6 15:37:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76775120111 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:37:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJbeQt0QBShR for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ADB212018B for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id f13so7280559qkm.9 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zi9TDDrz+H3d6Zfipt2vxqIPhnPYuEPwwKbWy2Ldr/o=; b=QdFVx9G8zvvZdDAnQYDKiMJ36O+/5WFd3+ZWR/IqbNUKxcIGRd77UbOpbnkkpNLVy6 G2KLjL+nT6+pbICRg3gTQF5NpZgnPsOU0P6fbKSCOiQLTtgfkww6mbG3PlKxB4oe0cpd 1eoG0qcaZSo6hkQe83hHOVbmj1xj4IXUDX2sp77l4DfNEnwVt+NNZ3UCwYiI0dwYbe6r TlQsgwBAp1DL89uRPjGJ4HKdb895t26RghlpQjYhCRNS64L1Sdyh1v3DZHOAijTFPI9V 5jR5BvGEnenPeD2Wcxy5yYk5nimv24RyE0f20x2Ac6+ZHf2Cjyyypo5zV62yFBMzoQAx j1qg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zi9TDDrz+H3d6Zfipt2vxqIPhnPYuEPwwKbWy2Ldr/o=; b=a+qtw0Hl+XeYAZtSoLo1tBcrBqDcwuaavjIj8zUUmZ6cfI6gB2JJrB4CYL6diAbJU9 z9KAwB3wtz2BzxZIF0WAP5mjjBGRlaabkBi63AKIE8yz5Se+qVYZEox6Nr3B3wwNYCy9 7lPSdFPrgSEa/BpQqbC8tnJoj803AQMwZ8SJPF92aJHl9xP6ct2HjlAGwOCvzlEoM/Fe oiUlZctJV3fv3TDHfndU+py8aFxLS4EmrLwtxAnbxLnJkMHnLBEXypZBsyIV60gwaWXX 1p17STIb7GKW5TmkiJipxqelVre515JVa72UGkNLscEiN98JmVs/vhETLzNx8ccRIR4b xinA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWhHevXXO7Ng8HM5tLUvYMRHfwhIyBaXC6M6WnDMtT74LW8dywY WHvPyTxfgPZsEVgkkR1JCKQCdcroPjJk8xci41Su6w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJDUYGxQz8TT7ZxJ/gye3muhvW73m9nwQGGOrSVl+ZZpoyQ7NKgf2qEdhGlEUD5fkhOdEpfZFs48cfeCTKJHg= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a7c5:: with SMTP id q188mr9456914qke.445.1567809461167; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:37:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> <25C52EC3-E271-46FF-90FB-976AE6022098@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: <25C52EC3-E271-46FF-90FB-976AE6022098@steffann.nl> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 00:37:30 +0200 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000002426f0591ea1649" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:37:45 -0000 --00000000000002426f0591ea1649 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > My problem is that Fernando is being told to defend the existing RFC. And who told him to do that ? Some one who recommended him to grep for "insertion" string in the text without understanding the full sentences where such world may exist ? Hmmm why would anyone do that ? By that notion it would be much more productive to simply talk to tools team and update draft submission parser. When in any document "IPv6" and "insertion" strings occur even once - REJECT. It would save so many emails .... And Fernando is doing great job btw - but there is just little problem - no one is attacking any existing RFC. > It is up to the SRv6 proposers to argue and defend the changes they want. > Consensus has to be reached to make a change, not to keep the current > consensus. > And that is precisely what is happening. The draft quoted mail earlier is a real prove of that. Now let's relax and enjoy the weekend :-) Cheers, R. --00000000000002426f0591ea1649 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0
My problem is that Fernando is being to= ld to defend the existing RFC.

And who tol= d him to do that ? Some one who recommended him to grep for "insertion= " string in the text without understanding the full sentences where su= ch world may exist ? Hmmm why would anyone do that ?=C2=A0=C2=A0
=
By that notion it would be much more productive to simply ta= lk to tools team and update draft submission parser. When in any document &= quot;IPv6" and "insertion" strings occur even once - REJECT.= It would save so many emails ....=C2=A0

And Ferna= ndo is doing great job btw - but there is just little problem - no one is a= ttacking any existing RFC.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
It is up to the SRv6 proposers to argue and d= efend the changes they want.
Consensus has to be reached to make a chang= e, not to keep the current consensus.

A= nd that is precisely what is happening. The draft quoted mail earlier is a = real prove of that.=C2=A0

Now let's relax and = enjoy the weekend :-)

Cheers,
R.
--00000000000002426f0591ea1649-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 16:00:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B5B120045 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WZjgLBbiEKqn for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60AA41200DE for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id f19so7889965eds.12 for ; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 16:00:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TOi/Bnj5AL5O+P/wHSt2Soj3VMKBU8kEZijQYz+8Fgg=; b=NOYUSHuFKt8qY5YN0WoiZuGKbVIcT6ML6rG6kmzD/Hnr9GaYtqIHqncGyqigWaMTPv pxVkgUbLpaEPybbQ5nX8hbOwvtXM3VOcwozGyvXFtyX1yZ3NxLZQM5ZEQm26Tvt2Zujm I3lQgCNh65Imd/pz2ShFlw/vhmdK0tiXLXfphaihrW5/ggsaPg8DkmsElcvo7U20QmsO Upmzd3BYbiXz17pmdwJkhZN/sqH3eRjJjyGxXfJtMnoVEJVtEWXVtG4XDGBi0hiAJEYx jrkT/dU82VGTBMX2RlTx+o3smm53kpu00NjksxO6SU7YzvXAXIieBpj1XY7zXipMAA0q ocvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TOi/Bnj5AL5O+P/wHSt2Soj3VMKBU8kEZijQYz+8Fgg=; b=rSYB7gk6VGn00cSc9dnfHWEHuGfLLs14g40MMtTn1MG64HehHUpXHHviMVfZUk3/K+ eAPw9cUi0l2HJkzR5AC+X1rfodNenCc1bQTcZQ4DA8Yi+yahwLzakTgIWlQ7/I0pEZal S9j9c8o4nEuySAGBOZzAG1UgJ2vY1TKvqB5MOts6DxxVTT8kWVHY/Co5G4pwRFoYiEkq DgbV/r5RxkkIB1mkn1D6GkSQdOuR2hZS4dn+o9VTkknvt/5I/V6z1YMIj5wC8dAjeXHo ZTLXOTgqdLiADCZ4NCMJFNpnFNam73Ig9G5WKlG6K1k8LJSCxS9sp1juuc9+7uj7F/gJ Fo4A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXfAzHaKQbWLZeq6cRTjtj9tHuxZPyWOfl57OK1Di+0AkFQFSVs BxBnZ0Tz9EOJTKF+NAeKA+wxAWT9oj2Q6BvUp6AmqQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwe+Xjof6aUqmuTZalqUVB9HT0ntkAxhkKc7j3UJhR5nhidvBRIWbxZY7BmbdsnRlftN59JaXrXxMkXvTkqKaY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:30d1:: with SMTP id b17mr9751811ejb.9.1567810801775; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 16:00:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:59:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Sander Steffann , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG , Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 23:00:07 -0000 On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Sander, > > But this is exactly what both chairs of 6man did with the help of AD long= time back. You must have missed it ! > > And below is a link precisely written to address requirement of justifyin= g deviation: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-0= 6 > Yes, and that draft was discussed in depth in 6man, a number of issues were raised, and we haven't heard back from the authors. And this was not just a case of saying it violates RFC8200, there were specific reasons given why it isn't robust. So it's correct to say that current consensus in 6man is that extension header insertion is disallowed. I also have a nit about that draft. The very first line of the abstract is "The network operator and vendor community has clearly indicated that IPv6 header insertion is useful and required." The fact that somebody _really_ wants their protocol to be adopted by IETF is hardly going to influence anyone. Obviously, anyone writing a draft thinks that it is useful and required, it's up to the authors to show that. Frankly, I think this statement comes off as being condescending and sets a poor tone for reading the rest of the document. Tom > And let me repeat one more and last time ... all other documents in progr= ess use two different insertions. Most of them does SRH insertion + new IPv= 6 encapsulation which is allowed by all IPv6 related RFCs - so zero violati= on of any consensus. > > Just NP document also adds two functions for insertion without encapsulat= ion, as additional tools which can be used for things like FRR if such appl= ication will be approved in 6man WG. > > All SRv6 existing specs can progress just fine with that last mode of ins= ertion being removed if rough consensus in 6man would not get reached. > > Cheers, > Robert. > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 11:58 PM Sander Steffann wrot= e: >> >> Hi Ole, >> >> > I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta issues, but= since you framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I found it requ= ired to reply. >> >> I expect the chair to uphold a previously reached consensus and put the = requirement of justifying deviating from it with the ones that want to go a= gainst said consensus. >> >> Cheers, >> Sander >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Sep 6 18:07:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 315B8120111; 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Fri, 06 Sep 2019 18:07:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:07:29 +1000 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Robert Raszuk , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007079f40591ec2e0c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 01:07:43 -0000 --0000000000007079f40591ec2e0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 7 Sep 2019, 09:00 Tom Herbert, wrote: > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > Sander, > > > > But this is exactly what both chairs of 6man did with the help of AD > long time back. You must have missed it ! > > > > And below is a link precisely written to address requirement of > justifying deviation: > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-0= 6 > > > > Yes, and that draft was discussed in depth in 6man, a number of issues > were raised, and we haven't heard back from the authors. And this was > not just a case of saying it violates RFC8200, there were specific > reasons given why it isn't robust. So it's correct to say that current > consensus in 6man is that extension header insertion is disallowed. > > I also have a nit about that draft. The very first line of the > abstract is "The network operator and vendor community has clearly > indicated that IPv6 header insertion is useful and required." The fact > that somebody _really_ wants their protocol to be adopted by IETF is > hardly going to influence anyone. Obviously, anyone writing a draft > thinks that it is useful and required, it's up to the authors to show > that. Frankly, I think this statement comes off as being condescending > and sets a poor tone for reading the rest of the document. > Yes, it's a appeal to authority. Earlier versions had 10 or more authors listed. That is also an appeal to authority. The draft doesn't say why insertion is considered necessary. There is no justification presented. There is no statement that says, "When using IPv6 tunnelling with 128 bit SIDs, the per packet overhead can become too high." That would be admitting what the real cause was, and make people question whether using 128 bit SIDs was really the right decision - as they should. Considering all that, I would describe this draft as trying to get its proposal approved through social engineering rather than technical engineering. > Tom > > > And let me repeat one more and last time ... all other documents in > progress use two different insertions. Most of them does SRH insertion + > new IPv6 encapsulation which is allowed by all IPv6 related RFCs - so zer= o > violation of any consensus. > > > > Just NP document also adds two functions for insertion without > encapsulation, as additional tools which can be used for things like FRR = if > such application will be approved in 6man WG. > > > > All SRv6 existing specs can progress just fine with that last mode of > insertion being removed if rough consensus in 6man would not get reached. > > > > Cheers, > > Robert. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 11:58 PM Sander Steffann > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Ole, > >> > >> > I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta issues, b= ut since > you framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I found it required = to > reply. > >> > >> I expect the chair to uphold a previously reached consensus and put th= e > requirement of justifying deviating from it with the ones that want to go > against said consensus. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Sander > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> spring mailing list > >> spring@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000007079f40591ec2e0c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, 7 Sep 2019, 09:00 Tom Herbert, <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk <robe= rt@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> Sander,
>
> But this is exactly what both chairs of 6man did with the help of AD l= ong time back. You must have missed it !
>
> And below is a link precisely written to address requirement of justif= ying deviation:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-i= nsertion-06
>

Yes, and that draft was discussed in depth in 6man, a number of issues
were raised, and we haven't heard back from the authors. And this was not just a case of saying it violates RFC8200, there were specific
reasons given why it isn't robust. So it's correct to say that curr= ent
consensus in 6man is that extension header insertion is disallowed.

I also have a nit about that draft. The very first line of the
abstract is "The network operator and vendor community has clearly
indicated that IPv6 header insertion is useful and required." The fact=
that somebody _really_ wants their protocol to be adopted by IETF is
hardly going to influence anyone. Obviously, anyone writing a draft
thinks that it is useful and required, it's up to the authors to show that. Frankly, I think this statement comes off as being condescending
and sets a poor tone for reading the rest of the document.
=

Yes, it's a a= ppeal to authority.

Earl= ier versions had 10 or more authors listed. That is also an appeal to autho= rity.

The draft doesn= 9;t say why insertion is considered necessary. There is no justification pr= esented.=C2=A0

There= is no statement that says, "When using IPv6 tunnelling with 128 bit S= IDs, the per packet overhead can become too high." That would be admit= ting what the real cause was, and make people question whether using 128 bi= t SIDs was really the right decision - as they should.

Considering all that, I would describe this = draft as trying to get its proposal approved through social engineering rat= her than technical engineering.






=

Tom

> And let me repeat one more and last time ... all other documents in pr= ogress use two different insertions. Most of them does SRH insertion + new = IPv6 encapsulation which is allowed by all IPv6 related RFCs - so zero viol= ation of any consensus.
>
> Just NP document also adds two functions for insertion without encapsu= lation, as additional tools which can be used for things like FRR if such a= pplication will be approved in 6man WG.
>
> All SRv6 existing specs can progress just fine with that last mode of = insertion being removed if rough consensus in 6man would not get reached. >
> Cheers,
> Robert.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 11:58 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ole,
>>
>> > I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta is= sues, but since you framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I foun= d it required to reply.
>>
>> I expect the chair to uphold a previously reached consensus and pu= t the requirement of justifying deviating from it with the ones that want t= o go against said consensus.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
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> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
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DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_F0A7CA2D9C964D3CB82BB36A992842C3junipernet_-- From nobody Fri Sep 6 20:05:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01F0120E1B; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NrIb0sbbMqTP; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DED4120815; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BB51F8512D; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:54:47 +0200 (CEST) To: Mark Smith , Tom Herbert Cc: Robert Raszuk , "spring@ietf.org" , Alexandre Petrescu , 6man WG References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <12357e9f-9292-4550-cb81-470d45f2a56d@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:49:21 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 03:04:51 -0000 On 7/9/19 04:07, Mark Smith wrote: > > > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019, 09:00 Tom Herbert, > wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk > wrote: > > > > Sander, > > > > But this is exactly what both chairs of 6man did with the help of > AD long time back. You must have missed it ! > > > > And below is a link precisely written to address requirement of > justifying deviation: > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-06 > > > > Yes, and that draft was discussed in depth in 6man, a number of issues > were raised, and we haven't heard back from the authors. And this was > not just a case of saying it violates RFC8200, there were specific > reasons given why it isn't robust. So it's correct to say that current > consensus in 6man is that extension header insertion is disallowed. Exactly. The relevant text in RFC8200 was added *exactly because of this*, indeed. > > I also have a nit about that draft. The very first line of the > abstract is "The network operator and vendor community has clearly > indicated that IPv6 header insertion is useful and required." The fact > that somebody _really_ wants their protocol to be adopted by IETF is > hardly going to influence anyone. Obviously, anyone writing a draft > thinks that it is useful and required, it's up to the authors to show > that. Frankly, I think this statement comes off as being condescending > and sets a poor tone for reading the rest of the document. > > Yes, it's a appeal to authority. > > Earlier versions had 10 or more authors listed. That is also an appeal > to authority. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-00 has 26. About 5 authors per non-boilerplate page. > The draft doesn't say why insertion is considered necessary. There is no > justification presented.  > > There is no statement that says, "When using IPv6 tunnelling with 128 > bit SIDs, the per packet overhead can become too high." That would be > admitting what the real cause was, and make people question whether > using 128 bit SIDs was really the right decision - as they should. > > Considering all that, I would describe this draft as trying to get its > proposal approved through social engineering rather than technical > engineering. Indeed. The original argument was "we do it, because it is not forbidden" -- when I think it was obvious to everyone that IPv6 didn't allow for header insertion. Then there was a big push to keep what became RFC8200 ambiguous in this respect. Eventually we got IETF consensus to incorporate specific text that forbids EH insertion, for all the considerations that had been made while the topic was discussed in 6man. Now the argument is that we should kind of ignore RFC8200, and "judge the technical merits of EH-insertion", as if the text we included in RFC8200 was just some random bits we added into the spec, because we had nothing else to do. And having us to find if EH-insertion breaks anything (which was already discussed ad nauseam on 6man), rather than the proponents making a case about why they need EH insertion in the first place. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Sep 6 20:05:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EE1120815; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pA2da86R6NI3; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11DD912004C; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DE6B986302; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:54:45 +0200 (CEST) To: Tom Herbert , Robert Raszuk Cc: Sander Steffann , "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG , Alexandre Petrescu References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:32:40 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 03:04:52 -0000 On 7/9/19 01:59, Tom Herbert wrote: > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:11 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: >> >> Sander, >> >> But this is exactly what both chairs of 6man did with the help of AD long time back. You must have missed it ! >> >> And below is a link precisely written to address requirement of justifying deviation: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-06 >> > > Yes, and that draft was discussed in depth in 6man, a number of issues > were raised, and we haven't heard back from the authors. And this was > not just a case of saying it violates RFC8200, there were specific > reasons given why it isn't robust. So it's correct to say that current > consensus in 6man is that extension header insertion is disallowed. Exactly. And the text in RFC8200 reflects that consensus. > I also have a nit about that draft. The very first line of the > abstract is "The network operator and vendor community has clearly > indicated that IPv6 header insertion is useful and required." I would be quite curious (but might be wrong) if the operator community cared about doing EH insertion. They are normally more interested about solving problems... and EH-insertion, per-se, has nothing to do with solving problems. The draft in question doesn't comment on the most basic question: why do you want to do EH-insertion as opposed to encap/decap into a new packet? I asked this question a number of times, and nobody answered. Rumor on the corridors had it that it had to do with one specific vendors having issues (of some sort) with implementing this with doing encap/decap. -- but that's the closest that I got to a rationale for the motivation of EH-insertion. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Sep 6 20:09:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB84A12004C; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:09:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CE_yLxdKnMfS; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49E55120815; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FB0F85FB7; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:09:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Ron Bonica , Ole Troan Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <538732E2-915B-4952-A439-F4678FCC21B2@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <53fc6b82-f660-5ad5-0f47-00fe22b5f83c@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 06:00:29 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 03:09:34 -0000 On 6/9/19 06:26, Ron Bonica wrote: > Ole, > > The IETF does not write de jure standards. At the same time, it must not blithely progress proposals that ignore existing standards. We need to find a balance. > > Generally speaking, proposals that conform to the spirit and letter of existing standards are better than proposals that deviate. This is a matter of hygiene. However, exemptions might be granted. > > IMHO, a WG can progress a proposal that deviates from existing standards if all of the following conditions are met: > > 1) The proposal documents the deviation > 2) The proposal explores alternative solutions that do not deviate > 3) The proposal explains either a) that alternative solutions do not exist, or b) why alternative solutions are not viable > 4) The proposal describes the possibly limited deployment environment in which it is applicable > 5) The WG cannot demonstrate any risk associated the deviation in the described deployment environment > > A naïve reading of your message, below, suggests that we fixate on Condition #5, ignoring conditions #1 - #4. I'm pretty sure that wasn't your intent. If it were, our new process lead us into some bad places. That is *exactly* the point I've been trying to make. > Like you, I want to avoid legalistic readings of existing standards. This is why I talk about the "spirit and letter" of a standard. For example, assume the following: > > - An existing standard defines a mechanism for doing something > - A new proposal reinvents that wheel without sufficient motivation > > The new proposal does not violate the letter of the existing standard, but it does violate its spirit. > > Clearly, the barriers to progressing a draft that violates the letter of an existing standard should be higher than the barriers to progressing a draft that violates the spirit of an existing standard. In this case, EH-insertion violates both the letter and the spirit of the standard. And the proposal never even commented why encap/decap is not a feasible solution, instead of EH-insertion. (the most basic content of your item #2 above). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Sep 6 20:09:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC27120E3D; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:09:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6aIQgbCZCnS; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F35CB120E33; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 93B318618E; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:09:33 +0200 (CEST) To: "spring@ietf.org" From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Cc: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org Message-ID: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 06:08:43 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 03:09:45 -0000 Folks, I have one specific question regarding this I-D: What is the motivation for doing EH-insertion, instead of creating a new packet with the necessary EHs, and include the original packet in the payload? Thanks! Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Sep 6 21:57:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC5C120900; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 21:57:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LFFE6toJldRu; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 21:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 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From nobody Fri Sep 6 22:18:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E15120E27; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:18:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id teSBiGgfIITw; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA4-Wyn.bell.ca (esa4-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9D1A120C2D; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm5czo-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.33]) by esa04corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 07 Sep 2019 01:18:07 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120b::8eb6:120b) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 01:18:06 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::c426:98cc:c3a7:f8d2]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::c426:98cc:c3a7:f8d2%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 01:18:06 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" CC: "draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXT][spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AQHVZSm9d69GrnLUK02cIW3/W7VucacfrO8A Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:18:06 +0000 Message-ID: <0A4878FB-AEDA-4BBA-9058-8E46ED8969E8@bell.ca> References: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.d.190811 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.28.92.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0A4878FBAEDA4BBA90588E46ED8969E8bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 05:18:10 -0000 --_000_0A4878FBAEDA4BBA90588E46ED8969E8bellca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=duUd8jODiIT0VEYB++iDi8yJpjqAHCxfnVSsyHx8b+c=; b=So4BU81lJRLOPvBGgUW1nK9C3VNi3vECa7zp7eg4Gk32WjLKGFbRSYeT9ZDmJdfQpK /9RLw8EZzBHjqEmJXGw3HwOl8nnqwcKq1Cw3CsuJ63mByVHjZwTH1whluCDuDbb2JtpW odiTMYdzABlGKv/IMzyHv94vN7VLode9TheiIEvyW4NqmSKMpRO5w5t5+QJjEbH/czTN HGstT+7V0kueudrIlBKParLv0C/pvmxzuyWRVVeePBUf54sAm24nIZsiOujmcSjUZ3NN LXxyTVFqJct6f88HYDO0tO3tTJES2i6O1ZXM5vdqeK4eQaNnj9DDul9YEq9ARcN15UHB jYXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=duUd8jODiIT0VEYB++iDi8yJpjqAHCxfnVSsyHx8b+c=; b=jun4n3tkkGoz/VT7Mc/L8dmQ58qbpYEjwGckOCKNdKVxLfabOT7S4h5mOu/efa7YK1 o01SNjy1M6UdFSnyEg4iXwlzQ/nPQmRU5pQDuvhXxVdebOzQJNpsy+1v8UyP3S0NoJEZ /TBfhEvQnDk0+8uJq4Yia/PRXHA3SKb1y4FGfsuDGBOOoO+uCa4v4Ji/R7fevCGgHXuZ sqUkDlK6PIQLTITh41v3b5nT6tcFuwob/xHfknk0PtJyeTCYTOqw59Cflj3rdoo5bgsi 1nh/6btzn1O7tIAHLzVrX9CtbPd6XJ1VICaLr3VJSe+yJT6bSlM1xDQcywLEimXKxfbw UQWg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUiB14Qo6V/TcA7BnX6aZ8slimcMGzNLIhoMq86iA7Mk1n0u2Nm WXjL7VbhATlK9UueE0WxiZR8cnhd6V2SvNvOx1w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqygRvTGQkepQOtM8p0cu84bFI5skZTnAkshLYaL3lLvXpT/14bC/cSR6xuE7NPkHORybat2fsARR8c9CSarfU4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1e7b:: with SMTP id m27mr11052723otr.74.1567836286047; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 23:04:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:04:19 +1000 Message-ID: To: Huzhibo Cc: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 06:04:49 -0000 On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 14:58, Huzhibo wrote: > > Hi Robert: > > > > Agree with you. > > SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest diffe= rence is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For example, it i= s aggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a larger sco= pe. of. Sid's routing capabilities bring many benefits to the network. For = example: network scalability, reliability, and simplified Overlay programmi= ng. So, I think that any optimization we do for SRv6 should not sacrifice S= id's own routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the interoperabilit= y problem between MPLS network and IP network, we can solve this problem in= the field of SR MPLS. > > Does any network need a SID space that is literally bigger than the combination of both the current and and any possible future IPv6 unicast address space? It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4, because IPv4 is currently a far more commodity technology than both MPLS and IPv6, probably on some metrics in the order of one or more magnitudes, well known, well proven, well understood, would leverage existing IPv4 implementations of which there are many, and would have only have 32 bit SIDs, so the tunnelling overhead cost would be much lower than 128 bit SIDs as a result of using IPv6 addresses for SIDs. > > Thank you, > > Zhibo > > > > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM > To: Ron Bonica > Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > I think you forgot few main points in the summary: > > > > * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardiz= ed and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implementati= ons > > > > * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead = of SR-MPLS > > > > * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non= are available for SRv6+ > > > > * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by c= ontrol plane > > > > * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily tra= nsported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane > > > > * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will requi= re another set of protocol and implementation changes. > > > > * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to = IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and indu= stry work in this direction. > > > > With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this poi= nt of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. > > > > Thank you, > > Robert. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > > Folks, > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I t= hink that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2=80= =9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header l= ength is addressed > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinu= e work on SRv6+. > > > > = Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Sep 6 23:50:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC24120B2F; 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Fri, 06 Sep 2019 23:50:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> <0A4878FB-AEDA-4BBA-9058-8E46ED8969E8@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: <0A4878FB-AEDA-4BBA-9058-8E46ED8969E8@bell.ca> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:50:19 +1000 Message-ID: To: "Bernier, Daniel" Cc: Fernando Gont , SPRING WG , "draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007cee8a0591f0f8c6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 06:50:33 -0000 --0000000000007cee8a0591f0f8c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 7 Sep 2019, 15:18 Bernier, Daniel, wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > > > Let=E2=80=99s say I have a native *IPv6 application flow* to which I want= to > apply a service policy (i.e. chain of functions), carry metadata through > TLVs or perform a very simplistic filtering action via the tag field. All > of which are real use cases by the way. > > Should I not leverage insertion instead ? > Why can't you use encapsulation? There's a 21 year old spec on how to do that, and it doesn't violate RFC 8200. RFC 2374, "Generic Packet Tunneling in IPv6" See figure 3. for an example of how to add supplemental information to an existing packet via EHs with encapsulation. > > Thanks, > > > > Daniel Bernier > > > > On 2019-09-06, 11:10 PM, "spring on behalf of Fernando Gont" < > spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of fgont@si6networks.com> wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > I have one specific question regarding this I-D: > > What is the motivation for doing EH-insertion, instead of creating a new > > packet with the necessary EHs, and include the original packet in the > > payload? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Cheers, > > -- > > Fernando Gont > > SI6 Networks > > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / > Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints > > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000007cee8a0591f0f8c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, 7 Sep 2019, 15:18 Bernier, Daniel, <daniel.bernier@bell.ca> wrote:

Hi F= ernando,

<= /u>=C2=A0

Let= =E2=80=99s say I have a native IPv6 application flow to which I want to apply a service policy (i.e= . chain of functions), carry metadata through TLVs or perform a very simpli= stic filtering action via the tag field. All of which are real use cases by= the way. =C2=A0

Shou= ld I not leverage insertion instead ?=C2=A0



Why can't you use encapsulation?= =C2=A0

There's a 21 = year old spec on how to do that, and it doesn't violate RFC 8200.
=

RFC 2374, "Generic Packet Tunneling in IPv6"

<= div dir=3D"auto">See figure 3. for an = example of how to add supplemental information to an existing packet via EH= s with encapsulation.

<= /u>=C2=A0

Than= ks,

<= /u>=C2=A0

Dani= el Bernier

<= /u>=C2=A0

On 2019-09-06, 11:10 PM= , "spring on behalf of Fernando Gont" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of fgont@si6networks.com>= ; wrote:

=C2=A0

Folks,

=C2=A0

I have one specific que= stion regarding this I-D:

What is the motivation = for doing EH-insertion, instead of creating a new

packet with the necessa= ry EHs, and include the original packet in the

payload?<= /p>

=C2=A0

Thanks!

=C2=A0

Cheers,

--

Fernando Gont=

SI6 Networks<= /u>

PGP Fingerprint: 6666 3= 1C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________= ________________________

spring mailing list<= /u>

-----------------------= -------------------------------------------------------

External Email: Please = use caution when opening links and attachments / Courriel externe: Soyez pr= udent avec les liens et documents joints

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--0000000000007cee8a0591f0f8c6-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 01:08:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205E112003E; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 01:08:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qjKcDB8cX3dl; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 01:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7A62120E82; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 01:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 0CD9E991769991D09159; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:08:19 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:08:18 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM529-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.14.123]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:08:13 +0800 From: Huzhibo To: Mark Smith CC: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: AdVksp60lvODxAs3RT63wMugcqrHYf//g+EA//54LLCAApzFgP//W6eQ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:08:13 +0000 Message-ID: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE937623@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> 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<06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE937623@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE937623@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 19:35:37 +1000 Message-ID: To: Huzhibo Cc: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 09:36:07 -0000 Hi, On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 18:08, Huzhibo wrote: > > Hi Mark: > I don't think it's a good idea to implement SR with IPv4. > 1: Sid must be globally unique within a large range to achieve unobstruct= ed routing capabilities, 20 bit MPLS label values are not globally unique. Why is this not a problem for SR over MPLS? I'm not sure what you mean by "global" because I've seen in passing that "global" in SR means "global" to the local network. We in the IPv6 world consider "global" to mean the global Internet - RFC 2374, "An IPv6 Aggregatable Global Unicast Address Format". If you mean actual global, then surely MPLS 20 bit labels would be creating even more problems for SR? >so we need at least 16 Bit to identify the node. In closed network you could have the entire IPv4 unicast address space to identify nodes. > It also needs to mark the device's Function, which also requires 12~16 Bi= t. So I think Sid needs at least 32 Bits. Considering that for aggregation,= we need to make some planning for the node ID designation, which will wast= e some Bit. In addition, the implementation of the Function may require som= e additional parameters, so it is likely to exceed 32 Bit. Again, SR over MPLS and 20 bits for SIDs? More broadly, where is the analysis of the size of the SID space required for SR functions that is independent of the underlying carriage protocol identifiers? How do we know how many underlying protocol identifier bits are too small, too big or good enough? MPLS 20 bit labels are sounding too small for SIDs from what you've said above, where as IPv6 128 bit addresses are too big because of the overhead they incur when using them as SIDs. What is the minimum and maximum number of bits acceptable for a SID? > 2: IPv4 does not have an extension header definition, which actually intr= oduces some factors that are not compatible with normal IPv4. That's not entirely correct. IPv4 has options. IPv6 EHs are a more generalised version of them. Tom Herbert is proposing IPv6 equivalent IPv4 EH's here: "IPv4 Extension Headers and Flow Label" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-ipv4-eh-01 > 3: The evolution of IPv4 to IPv6 is a big trend, and we must prepare for = the future. > I think reusing IPv4 for SR is entirely valid if it provides enough significant advantages over IPv6 over SR. I do believe it that fundamentally it would be better to have a single layer 3 protocol in a network, however give me a choice of EH insertion or using IPv4 for SR, and I'll take SR over IPv4 every day of the week. The SR over IPv4 packets would have source addresses in them that identify the device that performed the SR functions as IPv6-in-IPv4 encapsulation would be used. EH insertion is entirely anonymous. If something breaks, you have no idea of which device inserted the EH. That's a potential troubleshooting nightmare, in particular if the packet transited a number of ASes over the Internet, and you have to contact each one to determine if they're inserting EHs or not. That's potentially weeks of troubleshooting, and weeks of angry customers, and likely much lost business. If the future of network automation involves automated troubleshooting and fault rectification, then I'd guess resolving faults involving anonymous EH insertion would make automating troubleshooting quite hard if not impossible in some scenarios. On the other hand, if actions have attribution through identifying source addresses, I think automating troubleshooting would be far easier. Troubleshooting is much easier if you're able to start with already knowing who did what. EH insertion sounds to me like it is breaking a fundamental principle of trying to avoid sending something unexpected and that the receiver will be confused by. "Be conservative in what you send, ..." Regards, Mark. > Thank you > Zhibo > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2019 2:04 PM > To: Huzhibo > Cc: Robert Raszuk ; Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 14:58, Huzhibo wrote: > > > > Hi Robert: > > > > > > > > Agree with you. > > > > SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest dif= ference is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For example, it= is aggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a larger s= cope. of. Sid's routing capabilities bring many benefits to the network. Fo= r example: network scalability, reliability, and simplified Overlay program= ming. So, I think that any optimization we do for SRv6 should not sacrifice= Sid's own routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the interoperabil= ity problem between MPLS network and IP network, we can solve this problem = in the field of SR MPLS. > > > > > > Does any network need a SID space that is literally bigger than the combi= nation of both the current and and any possible future IPv6 unicast address= space? > > It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4, because IPv4 is currently a far m= ore commodity technology than both MPLS and IPv6, probably on some metrics = in the order of one or more magnitudes, well known, well proven, well under= stood, would leverage existing IPv4 implementations of which there are many= , and would have only have 32 bit SIDs, so the tunnelling overhead cost wou= ld be much lower than 128 bit SIDs as a result of using IPv6 addresses for = SIDs. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Zhibo > > > > > > > > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert > > Raszuk > > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM > > To: Ron Bonica > > Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > > > > > I think you forgot few main points in the summary: > > > > > > > > * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both > > standardized and successfully deployed in the network with > > interoperable implementations > > > > > > > > * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to > > overhead of SR-MPLS > > > > > > > > * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and > > non are available for SRv6+ > > > > > > > > * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed > > by control plane > > > > > > > > * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily > > transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane > > > > > > > > * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will req= uire another set of protocol and implementation changes. > > > > > > > > * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping t= o IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and in= dustry work in this direction. > > > > > > > > With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this p= oint of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Robert. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I= think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of > > header length is addressed Many objections the uSID proposal remain > > unanswered > > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to disconti= nue work on SRv6+. > > > > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Sep 7 02:57:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3775B1200FB for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 02:57:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lAqUb0MvaFZH for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 02:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82e.google.com (mail-qt1-x82e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 842E11201E0 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 02:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82e.google.com with SMTP id g4so10252029qtq.7 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 02:56:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Bjuj23SpgUi3Gsi2tkt1nrmlrLruvGREE0wTrHBfoxY=; b=DAt8GvRUqp7KQYU13zsrrlGJaZLoJUu5pEpQvOZLma3LAsxSRqMTP1jzj7XyrSZaok 1S+c0aEbKBafUoVY6NDZd+4bfDLtudomfXPNm4xBJ2cY0Sp9jCm+FWRG0eru79RfEvi4 nZWiha5cMmdJXKGC/gsnQfvSgYgLG5d+KhT8JY6mmCprD/P7ngLAM5ie3l4BhZNzanKU Yb8SBRZGdJc8bfC5eWavfMExelDSzrpLSVK+xzGP33jiNz5LkgjyaqdjtbpGw0eX0pmc QjLmYZ/5ndrCtfWSV1EWaHRlg1ctwMM7OMkDU4M09GE3NxPks/cMvyiYJ89dOp2A3U0S R6cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Bjuj23SpgUi3Gsi2tkt1nrmlrLruvGREE0wTrHBfoxY=; b=GWwtZj+OFjNc2rLKJpmEO+24Wl6djAhzpIqeeYxTy4psoynA3nDjDX0VdzEnxA2rDz hWgon+3hwWgA0B8N+cgfF38Y/t7Fc1OiflTxhu/xfZBeOYvaGQJds5zc4Oaf1Xxa1HY1 W+TD3FJvGjS4i7NU/tO6tHMk9vQU4oABw9kSVxAtQHMFe3vjjiJcW/gzyYvuP/2iNw5o 8KSoKxGiAjHX8+ru48RQ9UA7c10tfJMUcyEKapMqhmQlq2K37dS8b2PJJcFopdobwG6N V6k573Tq7uCBXb4gKZ1k/n/i54CoLPregqhBK8gd15UfDKYc78JDeJVvQSNKjN//e8nY mCnQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWJsFKMWZ09HzK0JwBlkD3MQUUqBF61nAvmo3pGmDXc7nR9y28u JQSuQKNORs+WVj6WZyc8yTfaZlnt/EAoLyRu1WQoww== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwXnVRLU6qNOO/ilqLEHn9WZlm9t1pWGKn285hpj4CfvtTt3a3w3FJTgcq4h71BWxlzcffOYnkUQa/YAzbzx84= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2a3b:: with SMTP id c56mr14262507qtd.343.1567850216461; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 02:56:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:56:46 +0200 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Huzhibo , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000036ae300591f39343" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 09:57:00 -0000 --00000000000036ae300591f39343 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4 You don't have to write anything ... it is already written and looks like moving fwd :) https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07 Thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 8:05 AM Mark Smith wrote: > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 14:58, Huzhibo wrote: > > > > Hi Robert: > > > > > > > > Agree with you. > > > > SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest > difference is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For exampl= e, > it is aggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a larg= er > scope. of. Sid's routing capabilities bring many benefits to the network. > For example: network scalability, reliability, and simplified Overlay > programming. So, I think that any optimization we do for SRv6 should not > sacrifice Sid's own routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the > interoperability problem between MPLS network and IP network, we can solv= e > this problem in the field of SR MPLS. > > > > > > Does any network need a SID space that is literally bigger than the > combination of both the current and and any possible future IPv6 > unicast address space? > > It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4, because IPv4 is currently a > far more commodity technology than both MPLS and IPv6, probably on > some metrics in the order of one or more magnitudes, well known, well > proven, well understood, would leverage existing IPv4 implementations > of which there are many, and would have only have 32 bit SIDs, so the > tunnelling overhead cost would be much lower than 128 bit SIDs as a > result of using IPv6 addresses for SIDs. > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Zhibo > > > > > > > > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszu= k > > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM > > To: Ron Bonica > > Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > > > > > I think you forgot few main points in the summary: > > > > > > > > * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both > standardized and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable > implementations > > > > > > > > * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhea= d > of SR-MPLS > > > > > > > > * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and > non are available for SRv6+ > > > > > > > > * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by > control plane > > > > > > > > * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily > transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane > > > > > > > > * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will > require another set of protocol and implementation changes. > > > > > > > > * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping t= o > IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and > industry work in this direction. > > > > > > > > With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this > point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > Robert. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I > think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll > who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header > length is addressed > > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to > discontinue work on SRv6+. > > > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000036ae300591f39343 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4=C2=A0=C2= =A0

You don't have to write anything ... it is a= lready written and looks like moving fwd :)=C2=A0

Thx,
R.=C2=A0

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 8:05 A= M Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gma= il.com> wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 14:58, Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert:
>
>
>
> Agree with you.
>
> SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest di= fference is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For exampl= e, it is aggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a lar= ger scope. of. Sid's routing capabilities bring many benefits to the ne= twork. For example: network scalability, reliability, and simplified Overla= y programming. So, I think that any optimization we do for SRv6 should not = sacrifice Sid's own routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the = interoperability problem between MPLS network and IP network, we can solve = this problem in the field of SR MPLS.
>
>

Does any network need a SID space that is literally bigger than the
combination of both the current and and any possible future IPv6
unicast address space?

It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4, because IPv4 is currently a
far more commodity technology than both MPLS and IPv6, probably on
some metrics in the order of one or more magnitudes, well known, well
proven, well understood, would leverage existing IPv4 implementations
of which there are many, and would have only have 32 bit SIDs, so the
tunnelling overhead cost would be much lower than 128 bit SIDs as a
result of using IPv6 addresses for SIDs.


>
> Thank you,
>
> Zhibo
>
>
>
> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
> Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM
> To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Cc: spring@ietf.o= rg; 6man@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+
>
>
>
> Dear Ron,
>
>
>
> I think you forgot few main points in the summary:
>
>
>
> * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standar= dized and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implement= ations
>
>
>
> * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhe= ad of SR-MPLS
>
>
>
> * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and = non are available for SRv6+
>
>
>
> * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed b= y control plane
>
>
>
> * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily = transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane
>
>
>
> * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will re= quire another set of protocol and implementation changes.
>
>
>
> * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping = to IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization a= nd industry work in this direction.
>
>
>
> With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this = point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Robert.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.iet= f.org> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>
>
>
> For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed
> Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
> SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>
>
>
> Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+.
>
>
>
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([169.254.14.123]) by dggemm422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:46:25 +0800 From: Huzhibo To: Mark Smith CC: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: AdVksp60lvODxAs3RT63wMugcqrHYf//g+EA//54LLCAApzFgP//W6eQgADfYoCAAJnkIw== Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 10:46:24 +0000 Message-ID: BCC23646-364F-4EC1-B2E8-643D0080BB6B References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE937623@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BCC23646364F4EC1B2E8643D0080BB6B_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 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from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qQNmliZY5i0r; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22c.google.com (mail-oi1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23C681200A4; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id k20so7149399oih.3; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 04:14:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OXVMYYuDg/iYKLc8m2oB6aG3DTR3Asc6a6gbOW3K7lc=; b=kp4+SKomrbQM3x51LiutlKziUgJK6dfCVXM8wBuTlKhfpO7jpCAW+ZERnkszplT1Xx P9r4ncFPOeiooi1okPdtkjz68LN2T5lRdTg0uoiJNLRA1ms5mZIL0H2zcqfdFG/SgPP+ 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APXvYqzGVc6BQ0+m8uBLICFd4E+1+EkaALnHLaSQBBpYGwyGticNOGqnzPihZ2UlDEmQi+H8CK+Zdq3WXO1L9oL9sKw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:c088:: with SMTP id q130mr10722350oif.54.1567854864469; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 04:14:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 21:13:57 +1000 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Huzhibo , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 11:14:27 -0000 On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 19:56, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4 > > You don't have to write anything ... it is already written and looks like= moving fwd :) > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07 > That's tunnelling MPLS over SR over IPv4. I'm talking about native SR over IPv4 e.g. "SRv4". > Thx, > R. > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 8:05 AM Mark Smith wrote: >> >> On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 14:58, Huzhibo wrote: >> > >> > Hi Robert: >> > >> > >> > >> > Agree with you. >> > >> > SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest di= fference is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For example, i= t is aggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a larger = scope. of. Sid's routing capabilities bring many benefits to the network. F= or example: network scalability, reliability, and simplified Overlay progra= mming. So, I think that any optimization we do for SRv6 should not sacrific= e Sid's own routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the interoperabi= lity problem between MPLS network and IP network, we can solve this problem= in the field of SR MPLS. >> > >> > >> >> Does any network need a SID space that is literally bigger than the >> combination of both the current and and any possible future IPv6 >> unicast address space? >> >> It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4, because IPv4 is currently a >> far more commodity technology than both MPLS and IPv6, probably on >> some metrics in the order of one or more magnitudes, well known, well >> proven, well understood, would leverage existing IPv4 implementations >> of which there are many, and would have only have 32 bit SIDs, so the >> tunnelling overhead cost would be much lower than 128 bit SIDs as a >> result of using IPv6 addresses for SIDs. >> >> >> > >> > Thank you, >> > >> > Zhibo >> > >> > >> > >> > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Rasz= uk >> > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM >> > To: Ron Bonica >> > Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ >> > >> > >> > >> > Dear Ron, >> > >> > >> > >> > I think you forgot few main points in the summary: >> > >> > >> > >> > * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standar= dized and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implement= ations >> > >> > >> > >> > * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhe= ad of SR-MPLS >> > >> > >> > >> > * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and = non are available for SRv6+ >> > >> > >> > >> > * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed b= y control plane >> > >> > >> > >> > * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily = transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane >> > >> > >> > >> > * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will re= quire another set of protocol and implementation changes. >> > >> > >> > >> > * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping = to IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and i= ndustry work in this direction. >> > >> > >> > >> > With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this = point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. >> > >> > >> > >> > Thank you, >> > >> > Robert. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica wrote: >> > >> > Folks, >> > >> > >> > >> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D >> > >> > >> > >> > But it may be time to refocus on the following: >> > >> > >> > >> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed >> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered >> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution >> > >> > >> > >> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+. >> > >> > >> > >> > = Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Sat Sep 7 04:31:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF02120D5C; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:31:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Plz_WcJjaglQ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B498612006D; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4C35786285; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 13:31:48 +0200 (CEST) To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "spring@ietf.org" Cc: "draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" References: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <634bdc26-2029-72fa-3fcd-d42923e47d85@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:31:42 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 11:31:53 -0000 Hello, Ketan, Inline... On 7/9/19 08:14, Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) wrote: > < An engineer comes out from the trenches/ > > > Hi Fernando, > > I will attempt to answer and but also setup the context first. Thanks for elaborating, by the way. > 4) This is not about the IPv6 Internet. All of SR is about within a SR domain and as an extension so is SRv6 and SRH. At least at the time of this writing, we don't have "flavours" of IP/IPv6. The same protocol is employed everywhere, because that's the scope of the layer. > There are exactly two "features" (at least AFAIK) of a large set where we encounter scenarios where SRH insertion/removal for this outer IPv6 header when the customer packet transits the SR domain: > a) BSID (End.B6.Insert) : this is a SR Policy anywhere in the transit path for TE and/or Service Chaining purposes > b) TI-LFA/Microloop Avoidance (T.insert) : These are protection techniques for sub-50msec fast-reroute and repair for failures in this transit network > > You can get more details/references on them on this thread : https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Jtg9YPxEjes4Bm-1ngwXmJfeybs > [....] > > These features exist and are widely deployed today with SR-MPLS and work similarly - difference is working with stacks of label instead of SRH. > > Now, it is most important to understand that the encap variants of these features (End.B6.Encap & T.encap) are already defined in the SRv6 spec. > > So then we come to your Q - why the insert flavors? The motivation is to reduce the overhead of *yet another* IPv6 header and encap when doing these features. You will also realize by now that this aspect is not specific to SRv6/SRH but in general to any solution based on IPv6. Anyone having some decent experience with SR will vouch for the importance of these two features. So, double-checking if I understood correctly: You are saying that the two uses cases that you are referring to already have an alternative specification with encap/decap, but this document proposes to use EH insertion to avoid the extra overhead of adding an additional IPv6 header? Thanks! Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Sep 7 04:32:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC162120D5C for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:32:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1oEFEIyp1_Ao for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x830.google.com (mail-qt1-x830.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::830]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F90F120DF3 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x830.google.com with SMTP id j10so10368719qtp.8 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 04:32:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hftgRjycLWMsqVAc/9Sw6C0AoZU722470CZJSdeid+c=; b=RZOTO5UKVYeshQVUERm7i5LrA+QhtaRAeW2KHhaqHSOo8AxLIOVEFh6Yb9zq/Mzl3O 7WtFk87xCNsWl7jChgQBT3U8ALRxmG/0+d989m8QJ5+Tx2otSNwr5duWUw4SKYNwIHQF p+F9l3x1xGs6Vp5JaPGc8kA1c8LqcmWgEaddjARC6LRT1/evLAC06+UGiiE0QWRRm9sA GBOoOtr/WWHm+Bg1pHXW0xGC8OY4C0iThNCyAuY9rab31Ivs45h6UsIF+pGIJyJhvHN8 TsKMcnHeo6vK4Menv59UEReEoGZ2PuYdBayz2JmZPsLXpKQXoqHzB2Cz7ucOjXYv2Vxp L1wA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hftgRjycLWMsqVAc/9Sw6C0AoZU722470CZJSdeid+c=; b=YP3TkbcMeO1UaKEe8twQu1LTIM9JhAL0ncFVljj+c8uUbvdekAyInEwa/S9lhFyHaA hiomVB03u5Re8BTEwHBjrJ+t9QsBUVbkeFK6t1frYk17v0UIOa6m0mZbaK3/oiaSklWe zC5xB9opQCc2L4l0jdYUonCAgwzj6duNz5GYjARZ3YYLciDK18oBuA7UM4LueKg4cAkJ NbPbk/Xtpfaucyu87qClJU0oZYhQlgr5y9Ql9oqe1I1DJjKbfzNOKilxF1qtgKTosN1u aYkB9VPOOMUMyYOY6aLexTRcTMaTvZDuyH2lU5Qcjms5vJlDpAj0w5J+eeVWJ0Lt4YAY hP+w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX6iRKp8Wo8ujz6nLKeyOdtf9/44f3jSQlpjp8rGUGB0GCYrGZv zKAAezxzVGVyNj8NoorF45NuSWrnARtGWYHicvKGOw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzyCl+q9sMqsHgIUNRxb/zGtQoFXjsqLqHtjcPGhCSsAqNEqz83k4eaXTXedlELoc7inJ32ZJjxWbN0os8vG74= X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4d8e:: with SMTP id cv14mr581060qvb.49.1567855932649; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 04:32:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 13:32:03 +0200 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith , Tom Herbert Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ecc7c30591f4e79d" Archived-At: Subject: [spring] IPv4 EH proposal X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 11:32:16 -0000 --000000000000ecc7c30591f4e79d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" /* Adjusting the subject to reflect the topic */ Ok ... I looked at the new wave of mails in wrong order :) I like this proposal: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-ipv4-eh-01 And have absolutely nothing against progressing it further - it looks on the surface to be more efficient then sr-mpls over IP - but how many bits are we saving needs to be calculated to state if cost of introducing new encoding justifies the additional control plane, protocol and platform efforts In fact if we would get to the consensus of using SRH with SID & BSID to be of fixed 20 bits it can reuse a lot of mechanism build for sr-mpls in any commercial router. It is just a bit amazing that insertion of EHs into IPv4 would be less problematic that in the case of IPv6 :) Maybe due to allowed fragmentation. As to the host dropping packets due to unknown protocol - let's observe that SR domain would clean such EH before passing packets further. Many thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:14 PM Mark Smith wrote: > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 19:56, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > > It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4 > > > > You don't have to write anything ... it is already written and looks > like moving fwd :) > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07 > > > > That's tunnelling MPLS over SR over IPv4. I'm talking about native SR > over IPv4 e.g. "SRv4". > --000000000000ecc7c30591f4e79d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
/* Adjusting the subject to reflect the topic */

Ok ... I looked at the new wave of mails in wrong orde= r :)=C2=A0

I like this proposal:=C2=A0
<= br>

And have absolutely nothing against progressing it further= - it looks on the surface to be more efficient then sr-mpls over IP - but = how many bits are we saving needs to be calculated to state if cost of intr= oducing new encoding justifies the additional control plane, protocol and p= latform efforts

In fact if we would get to the con= sensus of using SRH with SID & BSID to be of fixed 20 bits it can reuse= a lot of mechanism build for sr-mpls in any commercial router.
<= br>
=C2=A0It is just a bit amazing that insertion of EHs into IPv= 4 would be less problematic that in the case of IPv6 :) Maybe due to allowe= d fragmentation.=C2=A0

As to the host dropping= packets due to unknown protocol - let's observe that SR domain would c= lean such EH before passing packets further.=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.



On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 = at 1:14 PM Mark Smith <markzzz= smith@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 19:56, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:<= br> >
> > It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4
>
> You don't have to write anything ... it is already written and loo= ks like moving fwd :)
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf= -mpls-sr-over-ip-07
>

That's tunnelling MPLS over SR over IPv4. I'm talking about native = SR
over IPv4 e.g. "SRv4".
--000000000000ecc7c30591f4e79d-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 04:43:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE1D1200B1 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:43:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7RObZoMeN649 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72a.google.com (mail-qk1-x72a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73AE912006D for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72a.google.com with SMTP id u184so5443104qkd.4 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 04:43:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=32/P+36izobQGeDsW6atd0pOLeK+8WoizIedi17z5bA=; b=VDTZTpLCw1SwczIbs9CPFL0qoCuuTWhkCjd4gyQCgG2Vno9UHuxR8Yrq+kagH87lfY LixGx5R+iX5D4Ecxc9eJSzQuDPMwgvMTsDv0VWrQ9n/PyLv9HM4B4zsL9ydaaVgTT+kH TA9eKOC0M9lfcg2L39nnKIJ4YNeXp9mfj/QZ1T+stOiU2BwnBRcZEhDlZ6tUBTE2MjYe 0s3mzTBeaxtxy9Ctuu8dZfY8HSXS+DG+yGwYzevZLmBYqsh1L/Of0w1K1+AAJYcl4Zyz MM46fwCh7N4EEVA0DUzvxGxLnI+VFs9kC4lVfrGO5BwZfNbn70Z7NkZmLIzDJCXBNSiQ ZPdg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=32/P+36izobQGeDsW6atd0pOLeK+8WoizIedi17z5bA=; b=HhAGw9YOx/+4lGDv3ZjsuD4DryP8Pnu4WIeXYT0vbe5rSH4u/clgEtZyTValOTA4DI TmoicZPuQZdqFx6XjmdUMmfINtCAbme9A4SqZFElk7ZyK5R08HpvtCckFHSnt89wvs3J Ox6AeSBWBoRsp7qrcdzyMrpcQbq9ybLWRMmiS1JxERd8NGlzFO399OjOHgW/AKB1RQr8 /pXf7hdUXz42Gd17N07fHk/JdD+5823kxVySuy9WRjp/Oh377Sy20cbyUMqpAtKuP7hU fO3OMYI3o+QlL/Fnx0aw+kMZrPKxnux/FUkoyioIQ2hFhqRPbfeFwh8q7YVa+iynRQrZ lDvA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXslxgz3a5Cn26Ot8g88hTIYU7dD8Zc5WGUqYsn9AODtZJn7oX5 v2Z8Ocr3QYE/wSfWhMansT3DzKd5tkJVaoOtSz4HUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzNXTs9r4D4bhi1EObCX+Fy8AviwdJegxdLoDxAWt7iW/kaPpuQszLBrGMwX4VkG5PrOmzZNlOYu1QcWD9HThk= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a7c5:: with SMTP id q188mr11467637qke.445.1567856622732; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 04:43:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> <634bdc26-2029-72fa-3fcd-d42923e47d85@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <634bdc26-2029-72fa-3fcd-d42923e47d85@si6networks.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 13:43:33 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "spring@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000e9e1d0591f51128" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 11:43:51 -0000 --0000000000000e9e1d0591f51128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > So, double-checking if I understood correctly: You are saying that the > two uses cases that you are referring to already have an alternative > specification with encap/decap, but this document proposes to use EH > insertion to avoid the extra overhead of adding an additional IPv6 header? > That is correct. I have been telling you this over and over again and you were choosing not to accept it. But please do think about real deployments which do SRH insertion with encapsulation on ingress to their network for TE or NP reasons. Then the same customer would like to use TI-LFA to protect data plane. So per your and few other comments he would not be able to add another local (to the protection zone) SRH to his already encapsulated on ingress packet, but would have to add another IPv6 encapsulation with SRH to be in line with RFC8200 even if the only point of the new SRH is local single dst detour and protection of arriving dst address in the outer most IPv6 header. How efficient/wise that is ? Thx, R. --0000000000000e9e1d0591f51128 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So, double-checking if I unde= rstood correctly: You are saying that the
two uses cases that you are referring to already have an alternative
specification with encap/decap, but this document proposes to use EH
insertion to avoid the extra overhead of adding an additional IPv6 header?<= br>

That is correct.=C2=A0

I have been telling you this over and over again and you were choo= sing not to accept it.=C2=A0

But please do think a= bout real deployments which do SRH insertion with encapsulation on ingress = to their network for TE or NP reasons. Then the same customer would like to= use TI-LFA to protect data plane.=C2=A0

So per yo= ur and few other comments he would not be able to add another local (to the= protection zone) SRH to his already encapsulated on ingress packet, but wo= uld have to add another IPv6 encapsulation with SRH to be in line with RFC8= 200 even if the only point of the new SRH is local single dst detour and pr= otection of arriving dst address in the outer=C2=A0 most IPv6 header.=C2=A0=

How efficient/wise that is ?=C2=A0

=
Thx,
R.
=C2=A0
--0000000000000e9e1d0591f51128-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 05:16:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E708E1200DF; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3WkoQXvqV9r; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45B981200B1; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D1D24861BA; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:16:05 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "spring@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" References: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> <634bdc26-2029-72fa-3fcd-d42923e47d85@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:15:13 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 12:16:10 -0000 On 7/9/19 14:43, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > So, double-checking if I understood correctly: You are saying that the > two uses cases that you are referring to already have an alternative > specification with encap/decap, but this document proposes to use EH > insertion to avoid the extra overhead of adding an additional IPv6 > header? > > > That is correct.  > > I have been telling you this over and over again and you were choosing > not to accept it. Then you have answered my previous question. This EH-insertion thing is not solving any problem that cannot be solved with the standard that we have, and instead introduces potential problems. You shouldn't be surprised if, modulo social engineering, the proposal for EH insertion doesn't fly in 6man. That said, I think EH insertion should be removed from this document, on the basis that: * It breaks an existing standard (RFC8200) that explicitly banned it for technical concerns. * It doesn't solve a problem that cannot be solved with encap/decap, and in fact introduces potential problems. > So per your and few other comments he would not be able to add another > local (to the protection zone) SRH to his already encapsulated on > ingress packet, but would have to add another IPv6 encapsulation with > SRH to be in line with RFC8200 even if the only point of the new SRH is > local single dst detour and protection of arriving dst address in the > outer  most IPv6 header.  > > How efficient/wise that is ? That's certainly, at least, a cleaner design than inserting EHs in the network (and there's no such a thing as a free lunch). Inserting EHs is, if anything, a hack. As a side comment, if you have concerns wasted bits (and since you stress all the time that SR operates in a "limited domain") a quick comment would be: why do you use IPv6 addresses (IDs of global scope) to identify the SR nodes? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Sep 7 05:53:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 630A7120E0C for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:53:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.905 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.905 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.092, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_06=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8__M09qNRmUO for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30F89120B5E for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id q203so8471670qke.1 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 05:53:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6IyQv67Y52GlBJd84qSwnh4Jq/K6oWp2aahM6GnBjTU=; b=cH/7XMR1XkCyiaw8pHPPlY+tmPuKYzfPElOMUIy9isLlapaqQGYfqNJCf3r3SBx9xE NRX1+qw9EFJEQjQzKtiBYzfSbXU+23ooQ0SjjmADUCST3EXPvkdPwb+9sEQyo6IM8s1R LvbxDwkRMI8QsPMsEO//w/BM5I9u7Zx4asZ2/+YWVTHdMyAg8s+zMvtQXcRV3slcTKv4 Dp4QY0Fye1mPyeCwZaIj35Ih9EjXxl6xyD76RhsS95M46ATwERm3jKsm2IRoSTPPliF9 oah0xNnBdEVvr5oqCJ68dUbm0lkEPlGCRQMBxKcGczhiVOIxTLbM2uNJGHwgug6M8LnP RrnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6IyQv67Y52GlBJd84qSwnh4Jq/K6oWp2aahM6GnBjTU=; b=n+fKuUho3LBWQobpvpWV6X4nxgx2zo8jvMVL0rY3q1a2Xxby81u57Ke7xaKFSxjwDn 2P0TY2Gi4tdUj3oXhC0pH3CHEtij558MaoKsHO3+gx2C6v/RRJB+u7SIbE6RIgykPxFt g3K5LhQRov8yuvS9athh2M4dLDacvARgV+K5Wrn/s3hjjo3rWqx1cm1qoSZvApmW0oUR 2sv4L7peNAhMKvSojuTUgLQN3sNQ+S5JSWtBpgfzgRlVAyzM4xrSHgHZnPgmaCl0ddwr 1aDRYt2iAd/cXnvB/KHN2oJvEfnilgRHFa6CCpebHYMasW90zXdIEVEToYyugYUAPRKQ 8yjw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXaet2oPAMTWD+UXCbM9ayZrtREu0j2G5j15rCV+r5pES5SZMsM MDy15LuosBjtchnMiqX1MyD3KY+0dTonXVfJoAk6VA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwjj0pkxg1tt3HCOPDg8ANTwDI1XZmHKnrUYzCI1Z4xjFxm6f/9mOCKoq6kiyAh3u1nWzHbzEopCN8zJxOurOY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1245:: with SMTP id a5mr13557610qkl.134.1567860819671; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 05:53:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> <634bdc26-2029-72fa-3fcd-d42923e47d85@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:53:29 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "spring@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0000000000003722350591f60b2a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 12:53:44 -0000 --0000000000003722350591f60b2a Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003722340591f60b29" --0000000000003722340591f60b29 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, why do you use IPv6 addresses (IDs of global scope) to > identify the SR nodes? > Well one valid reason would be to avoid need for yet another mapping table like LDP or SR-MPLS requires. Sure TI-LFA works fine with SR-MPLS no problem. It also works fine with uSID. It may work with new EH encapsulation proposal with IPv4 too. Please keep in mind that for vast majority of TI-LFA you do not need any SID at all. ZERO SID covers most of real topologies !!! [image: image.png] SRC slide 19 from : https://www.segment-routing.net/tutorials/2016-09-27-topology-independent-lfa-ti-lfa/ All you require SRH for is preservation of original destination IPv6 address in the packet during detour. It is IPv6 packet which you are protecting so where do you put those 128 bits ? You can not map it to anything and ship in the control plane as you would drop a lot till such pigeon would rich the PQ node. That would defeat the entire purpose of LFA. Best, Robert. --0000000000003722340591f60b29 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

why do you use IPv6 address= es (IDs of global scope) to
identify the SR nodes?

Well one valid r= eason would be to avoid need for yet another mapping table like LDP or SR-M= PLS requires.=C2=A0

Sure TI-LFA works fine with SR= -MPLS no problem. It also works fine with uSID.=C2=A0

<= div>It may work with new EH encapsulation proposal with IPv4 too.=C2=A0

Please keep in mind that for vast majority of TI-LFA = you do not need any SID at all. ZERO SID covers most of real topologies !!!=

3D"image.p=

<= div>
All you require SRH for is preservation of original dest= ination IPv6 address in the packet during detour. It is IPv6 packet which y= ou are protecting so where do you put those 128 bits ?=C2=A0

=
You can not map it to anything and ship in the control plane as = you would drop a lot till such pigeon would rich the PQ node. That would de= feat the entire purpose of LFA.

Best,
Ro= bert.
=C2=A0
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([169.254.3.54]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 21:06:35 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: Fernando Gont , Robert Raszuk CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AQHVZSnX5cTbH8qCZEaZaRB7updMo6cfJe0AgABpRwCAAANQgIAACNmAgACP3dA= Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 13:06:34 +0000 Message-ID: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB98D944@nkgeml514-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> <634bdc26-2029-72fa-3fcd-d42923e47d85@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.217.214] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 13:06:50 -0000 SSBhbSBoYXBweSB0byBzZWUgdGhlIGNvbnZlcmdpbmcsIGFuZCBJIGFncmVlIHdpdGggYm90aCBS b2JlcnQgYW5kIEdlcm5hbmRvLg0KDQpUaGUgcHJvYmxlbSB0aGF0IGFuIEVILWluc2VydGlvbiB3 YW50IHRvIHNvbHZlIGNhbiBhbHNvIGJlIHNvbHZlZCBieSB1c2luZyBhbiBleHRyYSBlbmNhcC9k ZWNhcCwgd2hpY2ggaXMgb2J2aW91c2x5IGNvbXBsaWFudC4gDQpUaGUgbW9yZSBieXRlcyB1c2Vk IGJ5IGV4dHJhIGVuY2FwL2RlY2FwIG1heSBiZSB0aGUgdGF4IHdlIGhhdmUgdG8gcGF5IGZvciB1 c2luZyBJUHY2IQ0KDQpUaGUgcHJvYmxlbSB0aGF0IENSSCB3YW50IHRvIHNvbHZlIGNhbiBhbHNv IGJlIHNvbHZlZCBlYXNpbHkgYnkgdXNpbmcgdGhlIFNSSCwganVzdCB1c2UgNi0xMCBTSURTIGlu IFNSSCBkaXJlY3RseS4NClRoZSB0YXggaXMgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBJUHY2IGFkZHJlc3NlcyAoSURz 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LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS08bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90 ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_F2ADBBE894EB4A45AEAA0009B8A17E99ciscocom_-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 08:39:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCCB120AF7; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:39:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PqNO8Y_aUCD3; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8394D120824; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 08:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 19B77D610FCFCF6A39C7; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:39:39 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:39:38 +0100 Received: from NKGEML514-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.3.54]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 23:39:29 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Robert Raszuk CC: spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: AdVksp60lvODxAs3RT63wMugcqrHYf//g+EA//54LLCAAyragIAAmLuQ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:39:29 +0000 Message-ID: 9594C635-89D9-4204-90CD-654F20E294A7 References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9594C63589D9420490CD654F20E294A7_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 15:39:45 -0000 --_000_9594C63589D9420490CD654F20E294A7_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1. I didn't see the possibility of handling packets with EH in fast path witho= ut the indication of SRv6 SID in the preceding FIB lookup. This is uniquely= introduced in SRH and SRv6 networking programming draft. The only 'problem' rising on the list, the V6 TI LFA, has been uniquely co= nsidered in the SRv6 for long, and has the encap scheme at the bottom line,= if the EH insertion need some more tech discussion. I didn't see any advantage or benefit of another v6 encapsulation for SR. Thanks Jingrong From:Zafar Ali (zali) To:Huzhibo ;Robert Raszuk ;Ron Bonic= a Cc:spring ;6man <6man@ietf.org> Date:2019-09-07 22:33:40 SubjectRe: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Hi, I agree on Huzhibo on his observation on SRv6 SIDs and their benefit for sc= aling, among other aspects he mentioned. CRH based solution, on the other hand, inherits all the characteristics of = a =93mapping table=94 based solution, including scaling. Here is a partial = list: MPLS over UDP Redone: Many have pointed out that CRH does all this to achieve what can be achieve= d using already defined, adopted, and deployed specification. Like Dirk men= tioned: "No need to re-invent MPLS over UDP using a different encapsulation= inappropriately named "SRv6+". Please see: Comments from Dirk: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/6Bm4nN5ah8= rFb7VutexK30kRUPM Many emails from Robert, including https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sp= ring/6bdX_gb47uFYnd6ytwFLPYxXCYo Need for new Routing Extension Header for SR: Not to mention the need for defining a new routing extension header for Seg= ment Routing. Where 6man working group has defined SRH: the work started in= March 2014. The 6man WG spent a lot of efforts (1000s of email, dozens of = document revision, dozens of IETF presentations, control plan work that is = adopted by multiple workgroups, etc.). Not to mention - Implementation on 1= 2 hardware platforms, including Merchant Silicon. Multiple providers have d= eployed the SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation wit= h line-rate performance carrying a significant amount of commercial traffic= . Several independent public interoperability reports documenting successfu= l interoperability of implementation from multiple vendors exist. In this r= egard, please also see Like Dan's email: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/= msg/spring/OB1l41EhhUu8x8XEnKaBTdczDj4. Need for Control Plane Extensions for all protocols: All the routing protocols require extensions to carry the mapping table. Changes in BGP, ISIS, OSPF, BGP-LS, PCE, etc. and all control plan protocol= s are required. Some extension has been already proposed and were presented= at IETF105. Not to mention new extensions for manageability. OAM: We have already established on this mailing tread that MPLS like OAM tool k= it is also needed for debuggability. ICMP error processing does not work for CRH. Incomplete Solution/ TI-LFA: The CRH solution is incomplete. E.g., it does not talk about TI-LFA and how= protection works with O(50 msec) performance in this solution. Scaling: Overall, CRH based solution does not scale in a large-scale network. * In a large-scale multi-domain interconnect, a seamless MPLS like solu= tion is needed for the CRH to work. Specifically, the CRH suffers from the = large label stack and protection/ convergence challenges. * CRH based solution will also impact the size of the FIB. It requires = a SID to IPv6 address mapping table (not to mention lookup). This requires = more memory and causes FIB scaling issues. Not to mention, the code complex= ity in an IP implementation. * Similar to FIB, RIB will need to introduce a new route table/entry ty= pe for ID mapping in case of CRH. That requires more memory and causes RIB = scaling issues. Not to mention, the code complexity in an IP implementation= . * Etc. Performance: I also agree with Cheng Li https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/XK0= F40oEuZv-3ule-X5685d_6Mc, =93I don=92t think the performance of processing = TLVs in DOH will be good, seems very complicated.=94 I agree and to add the need for processing multiple extension headers. Ecosystem: CRH has no ecosystem, no public proof of concept on hardware with linerate = performance. SRv6 and SRH based implementation has a large ecosystem. The S= Rv6 ecosystem includes several open-source implementations: (Linux: Kernel = and srext module, FD.io: VPP, Apps: Snort, iptables and nfta= bles, tcpdump and Wireshark). All this took the industry over 5 years to ge= t to that level of maturity and adoption. Summary: In summary, nothing adds up; it makes no sense. It will take more than hijacking an email thread for the authors of CRH to = justify why 6man should define a new routing extension header for Segment R= outing. Thanks Regards =85 Zafar From: ipv6 on behalf of Huzhibo Date: Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:58 AM To: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: RE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Hi Robert: Agree with you. SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest differe= nce is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For example, it is = aggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a larger scope= . of. Sid's routing capabilities bring many benefits to the network. For ex= ample: network scalability, reliability, and simplified Overlay programming= . So, I think that any optimization we do for SRv6 should not sacrifice Sid= 's own routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the interoperability = problem between MPLS network and IP network, we can solve this problem in t= he field of SR MPLS. Thank you, Zhibo From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM To: Ron Bonica Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Dear Ron, I think you forgot few main points in the summary: * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardized= and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implementation= s * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead of= SR-MPLS * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non a= re available for SRv6+ * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by con= trol plane * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily trans= ported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will require= another set of protocol and implementation changes. * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to IP= v6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and indust= ry work in this direction. With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this point= of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. Thank you, Robert. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Folks, We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I thi= nk that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =93All w= ho wander are not lost.=94 But it may be time to refocus on the following: * For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of head= er length is addressed * Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered * SRv6+ offers an alternative solution Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue = work on SRv6+. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_9594C63589D9420490CD654F20E294A7_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1.
I didn't see the possibility of handling packets with EH in fast path witho= ut the indication of SRv6 SID in the preceding FIB lookup. This is uniquely= introduced in SRH and SRv6 networking programming draft.
The only 'problem' rising on the list, the V6 TI LFA,  has been unique= ly considered in the SRv6 for long, and has the encap scheme at the bottom = line, if the EH insertion need some more tech discussion.
I didn't see any advantage or benefit of another v6 encapsulation for SR. <= br>
Thanks
Jingrong
From:Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@c= isco.com>
To:Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.co= m>;Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>;Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40ju= niper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc:spring <spring@ietf.org>= ;;6man <6man@ietf.org>
Date:2019-09-07 22:33:40
SubjectRe: [spring] Regaining Fo= cus on SRv6 and SRv6+

Hi, 

 

I agree on Huzhibo on his observation on SRv6 SIDs and their benefit for = scaling, among other aspects he mentioned. 

 

CRH based solution, on the other hand, inherits all the characteristics o= f a =93mapping table=94 based solution, including scaling. Here is a p= artial list:

 

MPLS over UDP Redone:

 

Many have pointed out that CRH does all this to achieve what can be achie= ved using already defined, adopted, and deployed specification. Like Dirk m= entioned: "No need to re-invent MPLS over UDP using a different encapsulation inappropriately named "SRv6&= #43;".

Please see:

Comments from Dirk: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/6Bm4nN5ah8rFb7VutexK= 30kRUPM

Many emails from Robert, including https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/6bdX_= gb47uFYnd6ytwFLPYxXCYo

 

Need for new Routing Extension Header for SR:

 

Not to mention the need for defining a new routing extension header for S= egment Routing. Where 6man working group has defined SRH: the work started = in March 2014. The 6man WG spent a lot of efforts (1000s of email, dozens of document revision, dozens of IETF pr= esentations, control plan work that is adopted by multiple workgroups, etc.= ). Not to mention - Implementation on 12 hardware platforms, including Merc= hant Silicon. Multiple providers have deployed the SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulat= ion with line-rate performance carrying a significant amount of commercial = traffic. Several independent public interoperability reports documenting su= ccessful interoperability of implementation from multiple vendors exist. In this regard, please also see Like Dan's em= ail: https:/= /mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/OB1l41EhhUu8x8XEnKaBTdczDj4.

 

Need for Control Plane Extensions for all protocols:

 

All the routing protocols require extensions to carry the mapping table.

Changes in BGP, ISIS, OSPF, BGP-LS, PCE, etc. and all control plan protoc= ols are required. Some extension has been already proposed and were present= ed at IETF105. 

Not to mention new extensions for manageability.

 

OAM:

 

We have already established on this mailing tread that MPLS like OAM tool= kit is also needed for debuggability. 

ICMP error processing does not work for CRH. 

 

Incomplete Solution/ TI-LFA:

 

The CRH solution is incomplete. E.g., it does not talk about TI-LFA and h= ow protection works with O(50 msec) performance in this solution. 

 

Scaling:

 

Overall, CRH based solution does not scale in a large-scale network. = ;

  • In a large-scale multi-domain interconnect, a seamless MPLS like solution i= s needed for the CRH to work. Specifically, the CRH suffers from the large = label stack and protection/ convergence challenges.  
  • CRH based solution will also impact the size of the FIB. It requires a SID = to IPv6 address mapping table (not to mention lookup). This requires more m= emory and causes FIB scaling issues. Not to mention, the code complexity in= an IP implementation. 
  • Similar to FIB, RIB will need to introduce a new route table/entry type for= ID mapping in case of CRH. That requires more memory and causes RIB scalin= g issues. Not to mention, the code complexity in an IP implementation. = ;
  • Etc.

 

Performance:

 

I also agree with Cheng Li https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/XK0F40oEuZv= -3ule-X5685d_6Mc, =93I don=92t think the performance of processing TLVs in DOH will be good,= seems very complicated.=94 

I agree and to add the need for processing multiple extension headers.&nb= sp; 

 

Ecosystem:

 

CRH has no ecosystem, no public proof of concept on hardware with linerat= e performance. SRv6 and SRH based implementation has a large ecosystem. The= SRv6 ecosystem includes several open-source implementations: (Linux: Kernel and srext module, FD.io: VP= P, Apps: Snort, iptables and nftables, tcpdump and Wireshark). All this too= k the industry over 5 years to get to that level of maturity and adoption. 

 

Summary:

 

In summary, nothing adds up; it makes no sense.

 

It will take more than hijacking an email thread for the authors of CRH t= o justify why 6man should define a new routing extension header for Segment= Routing. 

 

Thanks

 

Regards =85 Zafar 

 

From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Huz= hibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>
Date: Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:58 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica= =3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@= ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Hi Robert:

 

Agree with you.

SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest di= fference is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For example, i= t is aggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a larger scope. of. Sid's routing capabilities bring many bene= fits to the network. For example: network scalability, reliability, and sim= plified Overlay programming. So, I think that any optimization we do for SR= v6 should not sacrifice Sid's own routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the interoperability proble= m between MPLS network and IP network, we can solve this problem in the fie= ld of SR MPLS.

 

Thank you,

Zhibo

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounce= s@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Dear Ron,

 

I think you forgot few main points in the summary: 

 

* Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standar= dized and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable impl= ementations 

 

* The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to ov= erhead of SR-MPLS

 

* The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and = non are available for SRv6+

 

* SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distribut= ed by control plane 

 

* If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily = transported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

 

* Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will re= quire another set of protocol and implementation changes. 

 

* If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID map= ping to IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization = and industry work in this direction. 

 

With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this = point of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. 

 

Thank you,

Robert.

 

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonic= a=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.iet= f.org> wrote:

Folks,

 

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and = SRv6, sometime passionately. I think that this exploration is a good thing.= In the words of Tolkien, =93All who wander are not lost.=94

 

But it may be time to refocus on the foll= owing:

 

  • For many operators, SRv6 is not deployab= le unless the problem of header length is addressed
  • Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
    • SRv6+ offers an alternative solution

 

Given these three facts, I think that it = would be a mistake to discontinue work on SRv6+.

 

       = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ; Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:17:12 +0000 From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: Ron Bonica , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List CC: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Thread-Topic: Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.) 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1yYoi2kODyXO; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E15701200EF; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D8A4B; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:34:05 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1567874040; bh=2Ip7ALQyuG+/ImH/t25 XDKrxZY9NsPCXESW9gFozBTY=; b=O5JsRdRk/8J0Z8ETCVJ6xhvFZeuPfIjYXQc 0S/6SOaMwoGeGCzu2pfxlXoQcIcF32CWQajBnaUwYORYBhG3m+aadeRWKsQI+op3 JrAz7mVY8LE6gPfMU+9BtS6qlVG0/4A6LKCD53gsO+Kmicl/GPvBFokKHkOWCRLw JgXucyjE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id qar87pbVj9o9; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:34:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:c4e6:9c7a:6aed:7ac4] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:c4e6:9c7a:6aed:7ac4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8AF6C3C; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:34:00 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <68D29232-7363-44B0-8EA3-5ECD2F1564FE@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_22C5DE4B-3F6F-46F1-9B3B-9367E303BCCB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:33:54 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: 6man WG , "spring@ietf.org" To: Ole Troan References: <4053BBF5-4678-4E13-88E6-553627E4D32A@steffann.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 16:34:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_22C5DE4B-3F6F-46F1-9B3B-9367E303BCCB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ole, > I don=E2=80=99t see a need to continue this debate on meta issues, but = since you framed this as criticism of me in the chair role I found it = required to reply. Following up now that I had some rest :) I consider you a friend, and I respect you a lot. Which is why the way = you were approaching this discussion surprised (and to be fair annoyed) = me so much. It is not something I would expect from you. Which is why I = kept silent for a while but in the end decided I should speak up. Being = a chair brings great responsibility, and the first and foremost = responsibility is to the working group. Part of that is steering = discussions, upholding previously attained consensus so that their = value/validity is not challenged over and over again, wasting a lot of = time and energy of working group participants. I'm not saying that = consensus can never change, but doing so needs proper timing and = discussion. Reevaluating consensus on a topic too often leads to a = "revised consensus by attrition", which is not in the working groups = interest. I still support you as a chair, and I am sure you can maintain the = balance between stability and flexibility. As a friend I just felt that = I should tell you I disagree with your approach. Friends should be = honest to each other :) Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_22C5DE4B-3F6F-46F1-9B3B-9367E303BCCB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VC3eloaasvH0nE1oC0DsP4kE7kFAl1z2/IACgkQoC0DsP4k E7kaVwf9H2Fs0fs2qIvnOuWpfcb2sbyHzoO20bq5ZizjE2Et+PURlmjJx2bbizPM FBGOBV1e9R6cCpIrRM+DpkuYf46/rb5hHxVQjnTRVaWuI9XJUtxzBemSne40AyyK JZrtogMM3y3xMjb+119fcQxnBNChdWDhOURSUtiJwy1860mFNp1bBVHB6+fRDkCt iMxWwX6hQ0tow5HF8dSPhhO6zPpmAHJNOuccXcGcl2DpTRAqZHJIBytHneVHkQeW UVbvXex2Ok8puGmNMdB7rveYK6uw1a3emnQ209SlRxKqLL27xUVfFoDFsyV19Vqu 24pEeU3jrYg1oR9QTmG9H/id/K7KRQ== =3KS4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_22C5DE4B-3F6F-46F1-9B3B-9367E303BCCB-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 09:41:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AA8120137 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:41:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m92nvozMtePd for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F9C21200EF for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id f19so9345008eds.12 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=89bdgRonovMcDm1FTyY3HFypsoJf4vfXKZC75loPPj8=; b=XO1CoD4CvVIHle1sBuipniabqG7mIGCm7mqwBZvjrRfxTHi1+STv5yyV2oUhzauBL/ FyN/fY+JlaF5azOkQp1fCs1pNi9fRtWD47Hyuk/Ca6GDvZiIJ8TmSrUHLuVKCo2JgIET LvCwGoOlQWpvpFrZqr8tZKsiwYpTNY/S6uqDmDns5C0DiFN1MxeTbiwzL7LJJPgjpxAI i6yRx7cUJlnu3/60+u7toZ16FXoNbglffkaKKJA6fvXZrh2drYny/Ase1Wp8kAA4GJwl 6+hDBK+WhB5i1mY37mTmoGn0Hc9mk4/CwpTy3w5WvUfAcFiCn29/x8PiZuAUb9z4Ktid 4/iA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=89bdgRonovMcDm1FTyY3HFypsoJf4vfXKZC75loPPj8=; b=XPqftHrohEfsTNcQgVIH5maWRfgEhEQJbvlRMOQ1faeNIQfKHPKj15VEeS4SQNIPRt 3B39pXBCmfPVKmoF+O9OuWb+FhIQ+45FVS2TgFwkIuxp0rn/YDiP99LdSsRHw7jSYkjb tcQjCyQs+B+62Xl1dm4CSnmL/aXEzCJYTiYsj0pPBv+2OFaUiQTLsFyWjKM+apFb4G8x oWpOFPJur4GY3YFCgEidLLNe6AtURY0XMpLOrRYY8RI3sakYLTKPvHJWWaub8ba1QHua IKBSmqLV2ZI0Y2z/fCWUq4g6mQMf2RQK3NYLLuAojLGqo1XdN/EcEZ61VfQSWB2GOJfK lf6g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUe3tafHVckDb2G8XgQpPOFq6Efhs+G/nd6c0shm20HQ/lQ0RIj BebM2Rk+D5ch1hpc7S/kQ4rErJDzfN2h/79+I4DA6g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwSKiTcpg/nVmc1LG/SjfW3T8kDw5RtHQVGXfAaMAM+Wf3/WTyPKZozQUjU7xat3wDVgOhrPdn8MB2DRRHdONI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b808:: with SMTP id dv8mr3098283ejb.119.1567874474986; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 09:41:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:41:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 16:41:19 -0000 On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica wrote: > > Folks, > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I t= hink that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2=80= =9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header l= ength is addressed > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinu= e work on SRv6+. > + 1 I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet. Tom > > > = Ron > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Sep 7 09:42:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C5A1200EF for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:42:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dDsMlcpauVHW for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com [207.82.80.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DC8A1200EB for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from FRA01-PR2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-pr2fra01lp0106.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.24.106]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-6--xe4xjlSOT650k84tS0I6Q-1; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 17:42:27 +0100 Received: from PR2PR03MB5419.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (52.133.109.74) by PR2PR03MB5323.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (52.133.107.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2220.18; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:42:26 +0000 Received: from PR2PR03MB5419.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cdeb:bdb8:89a2:bca8]) by PR2PR03MB5419.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::cdeb:bdb8:89a2:bca8%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2241.018; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:42:26 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Ron Bonica , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) 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aW5kIG5vIGludGVyZXN0IGZyb20gYW55b25lLiANCkkgd291bGQgYWR2aXNlIHlvdSB0byByZWFk IHRoYXQgc2lsZW5jZSBkaWZmZXJlbnRseS4g8J+YicKgIA0KwqANCjxzbmlwPg0KwqANCg0K From nobody Sat Sep 7 09:56:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E631200E9 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:56:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tH1euz1D51Wf for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD054120019 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63E64B; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:56:53 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1567875410; bh=RWFIPO7Jl/teWWt/RdT c3mx5zo0j0IbD2fTc0R4YM5g=; b=i+XFdJvXQqMfnWIv5MiI19s3Gfcah4bESrv jGPX6liPOv22nitMWBBG4aYxMWqsoZ0rPuWglx0LP0YQWCvD1h83x0Z4wP78nC0K bUqRNMzfeBqQjm7WZOMoP5w+ItopiFqHZQPkiDMFE2BwYrpEZDdUy4zZVIiPk/b+ XYWmXLGE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id tmi1NkxiOpZv; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:56:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:c4e6:9c7a:6aed:7ac4] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:c4e6:9c7a:6aed:7ac4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A49923C; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:56:49 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <19F2D959-8B62-4B5C-9DAB-E4C4E83248F2@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8DEB41DD-CDB8-4CAE-A30E-6D8C6D4EF931"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 18:56:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: <5E3BE049-9BB8-4B05-8C9D-714FAC2B773B@liquidtelecom.com> Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Ron Bonica , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List To: Andrew Alston References: <6B60DF69-4F15-412F-82CD-1ADD5CC68469@cisco.com> <5E3BE049-9BB8-4B05-8C9D-714FAC2B773B@liquidtelecom.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 16:56:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8DEB41DD-CDB8-4CAE-A30E-6D8C6D4EF931 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, I noticed this bit of your message, and it made me think. > With regards to your points about its all already developed =E2=80=93 = are you really telling me that because the authors chose to go and spend = ages developing something while taking zero cognizance of the consensus = in the community on both the semantics of addresses and issues like = header insertion and removal =E2=80=93 just because you ignored them and = wrote the code we are now meant to rubber stamp it? Rough consensus and running code... But we work by rough consensus. Running code that explicitly goes against consensus is no IETF standard = at al. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_8DEB41DD-CDB8-4CAE-A30E-6D8C6D4EF931 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VC3eloaasvH0nE1oC0DsP4kE7kFAl1z4VEACgkQoC0DsP4k E7mXbAf/ROPp2du8koMvi01yrdTYMjsiFTQlTHybj0hBnZL8Z1QIuRA53wZucZCQ wmEocxbmc5pz1kOPP62eaC0wb2loXlfFXadPeMNDFgjQUZKzWLyvVuZ7vCUYxrZf CXq8qnt0Vug43nOQzWqvs0q5lwOU7poWVwc8XnTEhOf0hq1DZYlcLbYT/nZU0yui G4rJYxAQtU67XjohrH+DhI//e/tSvjm7s8wyLWwHnfii0VRO4CSleky/wCuEpM/9 wdNHadteWWJ8Vereta8cVdrmKSIfok6de35yOrNdW4YRf/tUbcBL77F3mbWJoGyW zz7qFiX3QUVX126VDSxUXUc/L93lrg== =R95S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8DEB41DD-CDB8-4CAE-A30E-6D8C6D4EF931-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 09:59:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1499D1200CE; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pjK867JWfzPD; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 885E2120019; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 09:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id d26so8868144qkk.2; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 09:58:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=h76cP34B7nwZ4l7xKz/WPkOlipfijc+WB6HqDVWpYAU=; b=a06fePkKKdpOoYNTUw0SFHAotyCogyEuDoOOfXBZqwDb/JRJjlZfqYtmAFpNNHpIw7 EMT0NmG/Fap/ZsMQbZdSZvZCm87vsSo1bUYHDyX82lFWqhEas571JqKk/I/bUCvOzV1G DPE23/dBV6VHYP/Hn2sc5pcL1lk6mnxpys7wcmsgM9M9+ENkZRajIQ3OiWgleSwd5e+U sDwxhOOo2Zx8p7KmlNM4JSiyw+6Lack2JwEchWnnsBDmt+rwpicPcBhhmr01AkKmuNbB l4cqdyzHsttCQQ7xKi644D+xKiUgDLLHD4UB7ZdzFEr9gXnUwhNhW5wcGhLvKyRfgP87 6yZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=h76cP34B7nwZ4l7xKz/WPkOlipfijc+WB6HqDVWpYAU=; b=c/8u4apDyymnUDmQ8g8yBuFR4AFc4Edb+DdLrL8rW74Xd61i1/NA3aU6Ya5ymfIGHN JqTJj3Z8iNV6KEo99QwDdDFaBLTe2NuQ/wzpsWV4T48m1ooujzP8Ec6QKiv9yLbgmvlH opf7UEuUI717w7SsWZ81A6uhUcZTi5MCSpwjQCbyE5iiw20wJjt9yl1z1zOa+P17n3s8 NGHkrnLtnSCl0ERBwXjZEVIuXVcKFPmYUHexNnpNn7deODtyPHvYaCgy7hvJx9Q/DeK8 0re25+pyUsQ+504Ja38XBZxcrDEuibB1368WpHQI9fiYZGb74eDrO/GHbmtoiNVNb1jp +NNw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWQ+xVhsp8hQzl9rAhejugcjxdIM9YT4ZGKt32fhdysJuWGAsqA qgW351HO281GtHYyQikK3uo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzMRrAXhlSxRYiudrTQyH4oskrgQFZMG7ORhdfDQoUIb6qwdnUlcdDApu2GQpl16uWuCJi3yQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:15f4:: with SMTP id p20mr14417993qkm.282.1567875537353; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 09:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.213] (pool-72-83-194-140.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [72.83.194.140]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u132sm4828382qka.50.2019.09.07.09.58.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Sep 2019 09:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3BC26A00-1732-4EF4-8301-664ADE43BAD7 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F250) In-Reply-To: <5d73cf59.1c69fb81.d28d5.322eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 12:58:56 -0400 Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Robert Raszuk , spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <206D05FA-C8FE-43FB-B232-08D5E9421FB9@gmail.com> References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> <5d73cf59.1c69fb81.d28d5.322eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> To: Xiejingrong Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 16:59:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3BC26A00-1732-4EF4-8301-664ADE43BAD7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can someone give an example or use case of when SR insertion would be requir= ed by an intermediary node in an SRv6 domain? Sometimes when dealing with complex subjects and discussions for me it makes= sense to start with basics and work your way back up to reasons why decisio= ns were made for a protocol or specifications. So the main business justification and driver in the advent for SPRING WG an= d SR-MPLS for Service Providers is to be able to Traffic engineer and color L= 3 vpn flows natively without complexity that exists today with adding separa= te loopback for ibgp FEC destinations to provide per-vrf TE feature. There m= aybe others but I believe that has always been the major pitfall with mpls. So now with Spring WG SR-MPLS provides label stacking source route capabilit= ies so L3 VPN=E2=80=99s can be naively TE=E2=80=99ed via FRR or Ti LFA 50ms f= ast reroute capability that was missing with MPLS. Fast forwarding to SRv6 and what that provides via SRH IPv6 destination swap= ping in source routing native traffic engineering not only for new green fie= ld Service Provider MPLS core=E2=80=99s but for the internet as well as ente= rprises with now being able to extend the SRv6 domain ubiquitously to any pa= rt of the network from Data center to Access now having traffic engineering c= apabilities which is very powerful and is why SRv6 should be and is on the s= tandards and not Experimental track. SRv6 also with the inherent traffic en= gineering capabilities for any node on the network that can be part of the S= Rv6 domain really make IPv6 a must and more attractive and a bigger push I b= elieve industry wide for all enterprises worldwide to migrate quickly to IPv= 6 so they can reap the benefits of SRv6. Back to the SR insertion just thinking outside the box but from a use case s= tandpoint where SR insertion would be beneficial an thinking maybe for TE tu= nnel stitching done LDP over TE for end to end targeted LDP session protecti= on now with that same tunnel stitching using SRv6 if you had to stitch SRv6 t= unnels together within an SR domain that would require SR insertion as any e= gress PE node along the path doing a USP or PSP would now have to be capable= of performing SR insertion. There maybe other critical use cases and that is why the Spring WG has the s= tance of SR insertion being mandatory. I think when the SRv6 programming RFCs were written that violated the 6man W= G RFC 8200 with EH only being allowed by the source node to insert EH and no= other node when Spring WG decided to make this a requirement for SRv6 funct= ionality they should have asked for 6man WG consensus approval and at that t= ime RFC 8200 could have been updated to allow this one exception for EH for S= R insertion by and node along the path. Unfortunately this was not done tha= t way from the beginning and now we are trying to fix what should have been f= ixed from the beginning. Regards, Gyan S. Mishra IT Network Engineering & Technology=20 Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor Silver Spring, MD 20904 United States Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com www.linkedin.com/in/GYAN-MISHRA-RS-SP-MPLS-IPV6-EXPERT Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 7, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Xiejingrong wrote: >=20 > +1. > I didn't see the possibility of handling packets with EH in fast path with= out the indication of SRv6 SID in the preceding FIB lookup. This is uniquely= introduced in SRH and SRv6 networking programming draft.=20 > The only 'problem' rising on the list, the V6 TI LFA, has been uniquely c= onsidered in the SRv6 for long, and has the encap scheme at the bottom line,= if the EH insertion need some more tech discussion.=20 > I didn't see any advantage or benefit of another v6 encapsulation for SR.=20= >=20 > Thanks > Jingrong > From:Zafar Ali (zali) > To:Huzhibo ;Robert Raszuk ;Ron Boni= ca > Cc:spring ;6man <6man@ietf.org> > Date:2019-09-07 22:33:40 > SubjectRe: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ >=20 > Hi,=20 > =20 > I agree on Huzhibo on his observation on SRv6 SIDs and their benefit for s= caling, among other aspects he mentioned.=20 > =20 > CRH based solution, on the other hand, inherits all the characteristics of= a =E2=80=9Cmapping table=E2=80=9D based solution, including scaling. Here i= s a partial list: > =20 > MPLS over UDP Redone: > =20 > Many have pointed out that CRH does all this to achieve what can be achiev= ed using already defined, adopted, and deployed specification. Like Dirk men= tioned: "No need to re-invent MPLS over UDP using a different encapsulation i= nappropriately named "SRv6+". > Please see: > Comments from Dirk: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/6Bm4nN5ah= 8rFb7VutexK30kRUPM > Many emails from Robert, including https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/s= pring/6bdX_gb47uFYnd6ytwFLPYxXCYo > =20 > Need for new Routing Extension Header for SR: > =20 > Not to mention the need for defining a new routing extension header for Se= gment Routing. Where 6man working group has defined SRH: the work started in= March 2014. The 6man WG spent a lot of efforts (1000s of email, dozens of d= ocument revision, dozens of IETF presentations, control plan work that is ad= opted by multiple workgroups, etc.). Not to mention - Implementation on 12 h= ardware platforms, including Merchant Silicon. Multiple providers have deplo= yed the SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulation with lin= e-rate performance carrying a significant amount of commercial traffic. Seve= ral independent public interoperability reports documenting successful inter= operability of implementation from multiple vendors exist. In this regard, p= lease also see Like Dan's email: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sprin= g/OB1l41EhhUu8x8XEnKaBTdczDj4. > =20 > Need for Control Plane Extensions for all protocols: > =20 > All the routing protocols require extensions to carry the mapping table. > Changes in BGP, ISIS, OSPF, BGP-LS, PCE, etc. and all control plan protoco= ls are required. Some extension has been already proposed and were presented= at IETF105.=20 > Not to mention new extensions for manageability. > =20 > OAM: > =20 > We have already established on this mailing tread that MPLS like OAM tool k= it is also needed for debuggability.=20 > ICMP error processing does not work for CRH.=20 > =20 > Incomplete Solution/ TI-LFA: > =20 > The CRH solution is incomplete. E.g., it does not talk about TI-LFA and ho= w protection works with O(50 msec) performance in this solution.=20 > =20 > Scaling: > =20 > Overall, CRH based solution does not scale in a large-scale network.=20 > In a large-scale multi-domain interconnect, a seamless MPLS like solution i= s needed for the CRH to work. Specifically, the CRH suffers from the large l= abel stack and protection/ convergence challenges. =20 > CRH based solution will also impact the size of the FIB. It requires a SID= to IPv6 address mapping table (not to mention lookup). This requires more m= emory and causes FIB scaling issues. Not to mention, the code complexity in a= n IP implementation.=20 > Similar to FIB, RIB will need to introduce a new route table/entry type fo= r ID mapping in case of CRH. That requires more memory and causes RIB scalin= g issues. Not to mention, the code complexity in an IP implementation.=20 > Etc. > =20 > Performance: > =20 > I also agree with Cheng Li https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/XK= 0F40oEuZv-3ule-X5685d_6Mc, =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t think the performance of= processing TLVs in DOH will be good, seems very complicated.=E2=80=9D=20 > I agree and to add the need for processing multiple extension headers. =20= > =20 > Ecosystem: > =20 > CRH has no ecosystem, no public proof of concept on hardware with linerate= performance. SRv6 and SRH based implementation has a large ecosystem. The S= Rv6 ecosystem includes several open-source implementations: (Linux: Kernel a= nd srext module, FD.io: VPP, Apps: Snort, iptables and nftables, tcpdump and= Wireshark). All this took the industry over 5 years to get to that level of= maturity and adoption.=20 > =20 > Summary: > =20 > In summary, nothing adds up; it makes no sense. > =20 > It will take more than hijacking an email thread for the authors of CRH to= justify why 6man should define a new routing extension header for Segment R= outing.=20 > =20 > Thanks > =20 > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20 > =20 > From: ipv6 on behalf of Huzhibo > Date: Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:58 AM > To: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica > Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > Subject: RE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > =20 > Hi Robert: > =20 > Agree with you. > SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest differ= ence is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For example, it is a= ggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a larger scope. o= f. Sid's routing capabilities bring many benefits to the network. For exampl= e: network scalability, reliability, and simplified Overlay programming. So,= I think that any optimization we do for SRv6 should not sacrifice Sid's own= routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the interoperability problem= between MPLS network and IP network, we can solve this problem in the field= of SR MPLS. > =20 > Thank you, > Zhibo > =20 > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk > Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM > To: Ron Bonica > Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > =20 > Dear Ron, > =20 > I think you forgot few main points in the summary:=20 > =20 > * Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardize= d and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable implementation= s=20 > =20 > * The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead o= f SR-MPLS > =20 > * The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and non a= re available for SRv6+ > =20 > * SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by co= ntrol plane=20 > =20 > * If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily tran= sported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane > =20 > * Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will requir= e another set of protocol and implementation changes.=20 > =20 > * If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mapping to I= Pv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and indust= ry work in this direction.=20 > =20 > With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this poin= t of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF.=20 > =20 > Thank you, > Robert. > =20 > =20 > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Folks, > =20 > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I th= ink that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2=80=9C= All who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > =20 > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > =20 > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header le= ngth is addressed > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > =20 > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinue= work on SRv6+. > =20 > = Ron > =20 > =20 > Juniper Business Use Only > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-3BC26A00-1732-4EF4-8301-664ADE43BAD7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can someone give an example o= r use case of when SR insertion would be required by an intermediary node in= an SRv6 domain?

Sometimes when dealing with complex subj= ects and discussions for me it makes sense to start with basics and work you= r way back up to reasons why decisions were made for a protocol or specifica= tions.


So the main business justific= ation and driver in the advent for SPRING WG and SR-MPLS for Service Provide= rs is to be able to Traffic engineer and color L3 vpn flows natively without= complexity that exists today with adding separate loopback for ibgp FEC des= tinations to provide per-vrf TE feature.  There maybe others but I beli= eve that has always been the major pitfall with mpls.

So now with Spring WG SR-MPLS provides label stacking source route capabi= lities so L3 VPN=E2=80=99s can be naively TE=E2=80=99ed via FRR or Ti LFA 50= ms fast reroute capability that was missing with MPLS.

<= div>Fast forwarding to SRv6 and what that provides via SRH IPv6 destination s= wapping in source routing native traffic engineering not only for new green f= ield Service Provider MPLS core=E2=80=99s but for the internet as well as en= terprises with now being able to extend the SRv6 domain ubiquitously to any p= art of the network from Data center to Access now having traffic engineering= capabilities which is very powerful and is why SRv6 should be and is on the= standards and not Experimental track.  SRv6 also with the inherent tra= ffic engineering capabilities for any node on the network that can be part o= f the SRv6 domain really make IPv6 a must and more attractive and a bigger p= ush I believe industry wide for all enterprises worldwide to migrate quickly= to IPv6 so they can reap the benefits of SRv6.

Bac= k to the SR insertion just thinking outside the box but from a use case stan= dpoint where SR insertion would be beneficial an thinking maybe for TE tunne= l stitching done LDP over TE for end to end targeted LDP session protection n= ow with that same tunnel stitching using SRv6 if you had to stitch SRv6 tunn= els together within an SR domain that would require SR insertion as any egre= ss PE node along the path doing a USP or PSP would now have to be capable of= performing SR insertion.

There maybe other critica= l use cases and that is why the Spring WG has the stance of SR insertion bei= ng mandatory.

I think when the SRv6 programming RFC= s were written that violated the 6man WG RFC 8200 with EH only being allowed= by the source node to insert EH and no other node when Spring WG decided to= make this a requirement for SRv6 functionality they should have asked for 6= man WG consensus approval and at that time RFC 8200 could have been updated t= o allow this one exception for EH for SR insertion by and node along the pat= h.  Unfortunately this was not done that way from the beginning and now= we are trying to fix what should have been fixed from the beginning.

Regards,

Gyan S. Mishra

IT Network Engineering & Technology=  

Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ)

13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

Silver Spring, MD 20904

United States

Phone: 301 502-1347<= /font>

Email: gyan.s.mishra@v= erizon.com

www.linkedin= .com/in/GYAN-MISHRA-RS-SP-MPLS-IPV6-EXPERT


Sent from my iPhone

On= Sep 7, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Xiejingrong <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.
I didn't see the possibility of handling packets with EH in fast path withou= t the indication of SRv6 SID in the preceding FIB lookup. This is uniquely i= ntroduced in SRH and SRv6 networking programming draft.
The only 'problem' rising on the list, the V6 TI LFA,  has been uniquel= y considered in the SRv6 for long, and has the encap scheme at the bottom li= ne, if the EH insertion need some more tech discussion.
I didn't see any advantage or benefit of another v6 encapsulation for SR.
Thanks
Jingrong
From:Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Cc:spring <spring@ietf.org>;6man <6man@ietf.org>
Date:2019-09-07 22:33:40
SubjectRe: [spring] Regaining Foc= us on SRv6 and SRv6+

Hi, 

 

I agree on Huzhibo on his observation on SRv6 SIDs and their benefit for sc= aling, among other aspects he mentioned. 

 

CRH based solution, on the other hand, inherits all the characteristics of a= =E2=80=9Cmapping table=E2=80=9D based solution, including scaling. Her= e is a partial list:

 

MPLS over UDP Redone:

 

Many have pointed out that CRH does all this to achieve what can be achieve= d using already defined, adopted, and deployed specification. Like Dirk ment= ioned: "No need to re-invent MPLS over UDP using a different encapsulation inappropriately named "SRv6+".

Please see:

Comments from Dirk: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/6Bm4nN5ah8rFb7VutexK30kR= UPM

Many emails from Robert, including https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/6bdX_gb47= uFYnd6ytwFLPYxXCYo

 

Need for new Routing Extension Header for SR:

 

Not to mention the need for defining a new routing extension header for Seg= ment Routing. Where 6man working group has defined SRH: the work started in M= arch 2014. The 6man WG spent a lot of efforts (1000s of email, dozens of document revision, dozens of IETF pre= sentations, control plan work that is adopted by multiple workgroups, etc.).= Not to mention - Implementation on 12 hardware platforms, including Merchan= t Silicon. Multiple providers have deployed the SRv6 network programming solution and its SRH encapsulati= on with line-rate performance carrying a significant amount of commercial tr= affic. Several independent public interoperability reports documenting succe= ssful interoperability of implementation from multiple vendors exist. In this regard, please also see Like Dan's ema= il: https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/OB1l41EhhUu8x8XEnKaBTdczDj4.

 

Need for Control Plane Extensions for all protocols:

 

All the routing protocols require extensions to carry the mapping table.

Changes in BGP, ISIS, OSPF, BGP-LS, PCE, etc. and all control plan protocol= s are required. Some extension has been already proposed and were presented a= t IETF105. 

Not to mention new extensions for manageability.

 

OAM:

 

We have already established on this mailing tread that MPLS like OAM tool k= it is also needed for debuggability. 

ICMP error processing does not work for CRH. 

 

Incomplete Solution/ TI-LFA:

 

The CRH solution is incomplete. E.g., it does not talk about TI-LFA and how= protection works with O(50 msec) performance in this solution. =

 

Scaling:

 

Overall, CRH based solution does not scale in a large-scale network. <= /span>

  • In a large-scale multi-domain interconnect, a seamless MPLS like solution is= needed for the CRH to work. Specifically, the CRH suffers from the large la= bel stack and protection/ convergence challenges.  
  • CRH based solution will also impact the size of the FIB. It requires a SID t= o IPv6 address mapping table (not to mention lookup). This requires more mem= ory and causes FIB scaling issues. Not to mention, the code complexity in an= IP implementation. 
  • Similar to FIB, RIB will need to introduce a new route table/entry type for I= D mapping in case of CRH. That requires more memory and causes RIB scaling i= ssues. Not to mention, the code complexity in an IP implementation. 
  • Etc.

 

Performance:

 

I also agree with Cheng Li https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/XK0F40oEuZv-3ule-= X5685d_6Mc, =E2=80=9CI don=E2=80=99t think the performance of processing TLVs in DOH wi= ll be good, seems very complicated.=E2=80=9D 

I agree and to add the need for processing multiple extension headers. = ; 

 

Ecosystem:

 

CRH has no ecosystem, no public proof of concept on hardware with linerate p= erformance. SRv6 and SRH based implementation has a large ecosystem. The SRv= 6 ecosystem includes several open-source implementations: (Linux: Kernel and srext module, FD.io: VPP,= Apps: Snort, iptables and nftables, tcpdump and Wireshark). All this took t= he industry over 5 years to get to that level of maturity and adoption. 

 

Summary:

 

In summary, nothing adds up; it makes no sense.

 

It will take more than hijacking an email thread for the authors of CRH to j= ustify why 6man should define a new routing extension header for Segment Rou= ting. 

 

Thanks

 

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar 

 

From: ipv6 <ipv= 6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>
Date: Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 12:58 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gm= ail.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6man@i= etf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Hi Robert:

 

Agree with you.

SRv6 is a completely different technology from SR MPLS. The biggest diff= erence is that SRv6's Sid itself has routing capabilities. For example, it i= s aggregatable, it is programmable, it is globally unique over a larger scope. of. Sid's routing capabilities bring many benef= its to the network. For example: network scalability, reliability, and simpl= ified Overlay programming. So, I think that any optimization we do for SRv6 s= hould not sacrifice Sid's own routing capabilities. If we just want to solve the interoperability problem= between MPLS network and IP network, we can solve this problem in the field= of SR MPLS.

 

Thank you,

Zhibo

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 9:33 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Dear Ron,

 

I think you forgot few main points in the summary: 

=

 

* Many operators use SR-MPLS successfully and it has been both standardi= zed and successfully deployed in the network with interoperable impleme= ntations 

 

* The overhead on the data plane of SRv6+ is very comparable to overhead= of SR-MPLS

 

* The control plane extensions BGP, IGP are available for SR-MPLS and no= n are available for SRv6+

 

* SRv6+ requires a new mapping of SIDs to prefixes to be distributed by c= ontrol plane 

 

* If operators choose not to use MPLS transport SR-MPLS can be easily tr= ansported over IPv4 or IPv6 vanilla data plane

 

* Extensions for additional applications like L3VPNs or L2VPNs will requ= ire another set of protocol and implementation changes. 

 

* If there are vendors who do not want to provide SR-MPLS SID mappi= ng to IPv6 addresses in their control planes let's focus standardization and= industry work in this direction. 

 

With all of the above I think it would be a serious mistake - at this po= int of time - to continue work on SRv6+ in the IETF. 

 

Thank you,

Robert.

 

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 3:08 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica= =3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.= org> wrote:

Folks,

 

We have explored many facets of SRv6 and S= Rv6, sometime passionately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. I= n the words of Tolkien, =E2=80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D

 

But it may be time to refocus on the follo= wing:

 

  • For many operators, SRv6 is not deployabl= e unless the problem of header length is addressed
  • Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
  • SRv6+ offers an alternative solution

 

Given these three facts, I think that it w= ould be a mistake to discontinue work on SRv6+.

 

       =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =             &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F1D5A3C; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 19:22:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6F7F2035-5ECE-4C01-B385-A8AEC57DDC34 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <57C6EF54-991B-4AAE-924B-8639551967B4@cisco.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 19:22:06 +0200 Cc: Andrew Alston , Ron Bonica , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <6B60DF69-4F15-412F-82CD-1ADD5CC68469@cisco.com> <5E3BE049-9BB8-4B05-8C9D-714FAC2B773B@liquidtelecom.com> <19F2D959-8B62-4B5C-9DAB-E4C4E83248F2@steffann.nl> <57C6EF54-991B-4AAE-924B-8639551967B4@cisco.com> To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 17:22:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail-6F7F2035-5ECE-4C01-B385-A8AEC57DDC34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > [ZA] Please refer to section 3 of SRv6 deployment draft, https://tools.iet= f.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01#section-3. It p= rovides some details on the Significant industry collaboration that led to S= Rv6 standardization. SRv6 standardization went through the rigorous IETF pro= cess (some may say much more rigorous than typically done at IETF). =20 Throwing massive resources at something, sending many emails and creating ma= ny tickets don't represent "significant industry collaboration". They can eq= ually represent ratholing, endless discussions and massive disagreement. Stop trying to make yourself look superior. That has no place in the IETF. S= tatement like that are pathetic in my view. Please focus on technical excell= ence instead. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail-6F7F2035-5ECE-4C01-B385-A8AEC57DDC34 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[ZA] Please refer to section 3 of SRv6 deployment draft, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01#section-3. It provides some details on the Significant industry collaboration that led to SRv6 standardization. SRv6 standardization went through the rigorous IETF process (some may say much more rigorous than typically done at IETF).  


Throwing massive resources at something, sending many emails and creating many tickets don't represent "significant industry collaboration". They can equally represent ratholing, endless discussions and massive disagreement.

Stop trying to make yourself look superior. That has no place in the IETF. Statement like that are pathetic in my view. Please focus on technical excellence instead.

Cheers,
Sander

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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an optional optimization. > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet. Really ? If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ? But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will require real development resources. OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed and does require even more extensions. Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistakes of the past (hint: LDP). Many thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I > think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll > who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header > length is addressed > > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to > discontinue work on SRv6+. > > > + 1 > > I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler > than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and > protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It > doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to > have multiple routing headers in the same packet. > > Tom > > > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000006476390591fa3e56 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> It=C2=A0doesn't depend on extensio= n header insertion=C2=A0

Nothing depends on extension he= ader insertion ... SRH insertion is an optional optimization.=C2=A0

> and there's no need to have multiple routing hea= ders in the same packet.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Really ?= =C2=A0

If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE an= d want to to do TI-LFA how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and= two Dest Option EHs and two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ?=C2=A0=

But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...= =C2=A0

All required extensions to protocols develo= ped in to name just a few already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS= and 6MAN WG to support the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature c= lose to SR-MPLS mapping) will require real development resources.=C2=A0

OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just w= orks" is not addressed and does require even more extensions.=C2=A0

Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my dep= loyment needs in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my= overlay I do not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachabilit= y provided by third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So an= y protocol which requires new signalling to distribute mapping is non start= er.=C2=A0

At the end we should learn from others .= .. (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistakes of the past (hint: LDP).=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.


=





=

= On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>
>
>
> For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed
> Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
> SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>
>
>
> Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+.
>
+ 1

I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and
protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It
doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to=
have multiple routing headers in the same packet.

Tom


>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Ron
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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--0000000000006476390591fa3e56-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 11:35:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82FB1200BA for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:35:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zjIpGqvTZppC for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x535.google.com (mail-ed1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16F67120018 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x535.google.com with SMTP id f19so9487973eds.12 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 11:35:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fSUIE28JlKr18uUFejiLgfcs6e373cFfwAz+gJA3cew=; b=UAK9hf+AwDdMoMUvgvtFJUnoFOFjdsuTvJWPfK1ejV0imb0zRxbq7tsT5fmfgwL6Bd 7UMep8HtQH7+cC6Ytd3nqMl+qligYWwFX4wfbRwbam2a8W9qsiyM7dEAdKl4qKr6ay/d H7u2TflIjhvUyFguiw2FnEv5po7qD3d5NawM7EmRLBcX4sovo7PQSmD7ffWJLdbQQlks RECbBkSPsonVhT9vtCwVR2Kbi2Wz3sXSzMTvZegWT7vMBgFSR6XqpDWLRLkmDOvmRRQl tDRH66vzgYMUjfjK/+svNAnExD1ouw9NbvdGfrfa2DEsv6cVe4bGCSaaCxXExyToXs92 AQ9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fSUIE28JlKr18uUFejiLgfcs6e373cFfwAz+gJA3cew=; b=NtvSeHDE7qTMrCISdNCZry+SZmuLb3hr9nCUVkTTx/KLwK3kJwZ3Scngq5bSUv1ZRz dHb1gjqoLhv0UZ8ZodQBa6OCiXkxpOeYqHvDtqzRT5D+q3AGQiiqPqeThItsWZf+yUll nQNHAU8m7jNGEbooEMp0p5kvREzdFgSaBhgwC9mCKs06psFYKyZStF6aayqeIMgSIEAr jzf2dCWYADm9CNATsmF+LlwKAiW+74/FMmDGO+wOTyrqElrGQ26cqov3xy6/nFez3OM9 XaXbmFQz1FXdswowDRixYvhcm4MFA3PsGitjgpq20O0LOwVfSffAPdT8Ne+rbfRmGDtS H9ZQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVQ9tha9LqYixk3jhRvBklAJUlOq1D0/Q1c3Mimm1QUnNt2dRv0 CpdB0DX4tL1jPVSzbXOT9g8b68lPoHLQeX2uaH8bnQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxnl/MszY373Kx60cO5U38TXWUZf2VhcadR2MTw0FL9//jbhKGHNp+2Xsbhn7XXF6qBNtYkU9q4opJxU5hU8TI= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3446:: with SMTP id d6mr12213133ejb.244.1567881322402; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 11:35:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3D8725E7-EAA3-4615-ABA2-FFA53D2F1B14@employees.org> <0A645A66-D64F-4570-9731-31E7030D51F7@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0A645A66-D64F-4570-9731-31E7030D51F7@cisco.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:35:10 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Cc: Robert Raszuk , Alexandre Petrescu , Fernando Gont , "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law - non-technical side note X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 18:35:29 -0000 On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:38 AM Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > > Hi Alex, Robert, > > > > I agree fully. > > > > From an IETF process viewpoint, Suresh recently cited his email on this t= opic: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizhoT5Rl-TjRc > > =E2=80=9CI just want to confirm that header insertion work can be conside= red in the future, and that it should be judged on its own merits and not b= e blocked solely based on the header insertion related text in 2460bis.=E2= =80=9D > > > > The required justification has been provided, again and again, like curre= nt email from Robert, Ketan and many others: > > E.g., https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/oFsaIAFXyw0PYdVpVVv9xO= xYYNQ > Zafar, Extension header insertion WAS considered by the 6man WG. draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion was discussed at length. (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/VSMm27TQFeJbvsD6pDnIPA4w4Yw). The consensus from that discussion was that extension header insertion is disallowed by RFC8200 AND here are the specific problems with it. Most of the issues, particularly the attribution, have not been addressed. There is nothing precluding the EH insertion proponents from updating the draft to answer the issues to try to move it forward. So, I believe it is inaccurate to claim that EH insertion is being blocked by purist arguments to uphold RFC8200. IMO, if that claim is being made then it's a disservice to the reviewers of draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion that put in substantial effort to review, analyze, and comment on the idea. Tom > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > From: ipv6 on behalf of Robert Raszuk > Date: Friday, September 6, 2019 at 5:07 AM > To: Alexandre Petrescu > Cc: Fernando Gont , 6man WG , "spri= ng@ietf.org" > Subject: Re: [spring] Spirit and Letter of the Law - non-technical side n= ote > > > > Hi Alex, > > > > This is really spot on and very brilliant summary of the state we are in = ! > > > > And since last 25 years rather proved that the first options is not worki= ng the choice seems pretty clear that we should rather choose the second on= e. > > > > Best, > > R. > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:57 AM Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > > This is a non-technical side note about the Spirit and Letter of the Law > in IPv6 WG. > > In these discussions about IPv6 like routing header, insertion, > mutability, 64bit, limited domains, multihoming, smart end dumb network, > and numerous other 'tussles', one is supposed to take a side among one > of those two: > > - maintain rock solid principles, continue the tradition, keep it up > working as it was designed to and that demonstrated its validity on very > large scale. > > - break away from tradition, foster innovation, things will work anyways > because humans engineer them and market regulates them. > > Only deep convictions about one of those two sides can make IPv6 > deployment and development progress. > > On my side, I cant make have such deep convictions. > > Alex > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Sep 7 14:19:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF51F120168 for ; 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Sat, 07 Sep 2019 14:19:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:19:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 21:19:43 -0000 Robert, You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote, not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex than SRV6+. The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is Linux, which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol. Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6, particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex. Tom On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion > > Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an opt= ional optimization. > > > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet= . > > Really ? > > If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how wou= ld I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and two C= RH EHs in the packet under protection ? > > But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... > > All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few alre= ady proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the ne= w mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will = require real development resources. > > OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed an= d does require even more extensions. > > Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the = global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not pla= n to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third p= arties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requ= ires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. > > At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistak= es of the past (hint: LDP). > > Many thx, > R. > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert wrote: >> >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica >> wrote: >> > >> > Folks, >> > >> > >> > >> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D >> > >> > >> > >> > But it may be time to refocus on the following: >> > >> > >> > >> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed >> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered >> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution >> > >> > >> > >> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+. >> > >> + 1 >> >> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler >> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and >> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It >> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to >> have multiple routing headers in the same packet. >> >> Tom >> >> >> > >> > >> > = Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Sat Sep 7 14:33:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF547120164; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:32:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vt6QCtvbRMkZ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from clarinet.employees.org (clarinet.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21AC31200C3; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from astfgl.hanazo.no (unknown [IPv6:2a02:20c8:5921:100:95ad:b8b7:eed4:559e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by clarinet.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 809E74E11A78; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 21:32:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by astfgl.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF221BC69D3; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 23:32:52 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <1f697fd6-dc77-b8dd-15fb-be23b3c296a4@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 23:32:51 +0200 Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Suresh Krishnan , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2C6D1E3F-5271-4516-94E6-F08974501DD0@employees.org> References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> <1f697fd6-dc77-b8dd-15fb-be23b3c296a4@si6networks.com> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 21:32:58 -0000 Fernando, >> The takeaway I attempted to highlight is that there is in fact = agreement >> between 6man and spring on how to proceed, and we are proceeding as >> agreed to work on the relevant documents. >=20 > I don't really know what the agreement is, other than the implicit > agreement that if you're considering violating an IPv6 standard, you > should come to 6man and do a Std Track document that updates the > relevant standard... if there ever is a corner case were header insertion can be done safely, = and the issues it creates mitigated, then that should certainly not = result in an update to the general rule in 8200. Ole= From nobody Sat Sep 7 14:50:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C341207FD; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:49:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OUUWvDMNXwnW; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71298120145; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5CFB98457A; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 23:49:48 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "spring@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org" , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" References: <8fe37b98-cba3-ab74-3b00-68f8d46d850e@si6networks.com> <634bdc26-2029-72fa-3fcd-d42923e47d85@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <3343c338-243b-1c79-f22a-d1a44918073a@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 23:47:33 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about IPv6 EH-insertion in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 21:50:03 -0000 On 7/9/19 15:53, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi, > > why do you use IPv6 addresses (IDs of global scope) to > identify the SR nodes? > > > Well one valid reason would be to avoid need for yet another mapping > table like LDP or SR-MPLS requires. If you care about overhead, that's an area that I would explore. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Sep 7 14:50:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA0712082F for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:50:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FR90_NcGPkoa for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58B2F12022A for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B979385943; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 23:49:59 +0200 (CEST) To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Ron Bonica , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List References: <6B60DF69-4F15-412F-82CD-1ADD5CC68469@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <7b191d0f-0364-f31a-5cd0-30c1aad1ac9e@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 00:49:18 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6B60DF69-4F15-412F-82CD-1ADD5CC68469@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 21:50:12 -0000 On 7/9/19 19:17, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > > * Spring chairs and AD were repeatedly flamed. They had to defend > [https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ZFm_bQP1-C2f9xJuXtvEd9mLoxU] > * 6man AD/ chairs had to defend, > e.g., https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/zfr-dCuSHSJRjE2NkJbfjuWoCi4. > * An atmosphere that the Spring and 6man are disconnected was created.  > * Heated discussions (that are not on the table).  > * Etc. FWIW, I have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. Nobody was "flamed". You quote a message from Suresh, in which I asked how the IESG handles these things. I did make comments to Ole and Suresh, because they are co-chair and responsible AD for 6man, and I think their comments to disregard the statement in RFC8200 as if it wasn't the result of technical arguments is both wrong and unfair to the wg for which they are responsible. (Besides the fact that it represents *IETF* consensus). This was noted by others: * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/9dfgDhjuMIvHfSAXg2bcFAa9q6s * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/5KvaCMhsq819wcHxTkF7TpBdzLg * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/CTMqxFA2Goa6e4Fp5OFYJx92eHQ * https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Rfd2RmNJ6Q1OikAJT5llf3BdSZg Given the past history with this topic (see: and ), I think the above is not acceptable. And since they are in leadership positions, it's our responsibility to note these things when they happen. My question to the spring people obviously came from that background. I realize that the spring co-*chairs* might not be aware about the history of EH insertion within 6man. I do think that the RTG *ADs* should, since part of the discussion of EH insertion happened during IETC LC and IESG review of rfc2460bis. I'd note that, according to our charter: The 6man working group is responsible for the maintenance, upkeep, and advancement of the IPv6 protocol specifications and addressing architecture. It is not chartered to develop major changes or additions to the IPv6 specifications. Allowing EH insertion seems to me like a major change or addition to IPv6. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Sep 7 14:52:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 452F11200F5; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5q3LBftYK__L; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, Tom is correct. In SRv6+, there is never any need for one packet to contain= two routing headers. SRv6+ relies on prepending, in all cases, including T= I-LFA. Because the CRH is short, this works just fine. I don't understand your comment about two destination headers. You might wa= nt to rethink that. Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:54 PM To: Tom Herbert Cc: Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an optio= nal optimization. > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet. Really ? If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how would= I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and two CRH= EHs in the packet under protection ? But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few alread= y proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the new = mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will re= quire real development resources. OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed and = does require even more extensions. Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the gl= obal IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not plan = to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third par= ties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requir= es new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. At the end we should learn from others .... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistake= s of the past (hint: LDP). Many thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: > > Folks, > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I t= hink that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, "All w= ho wander are not lost." > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header l= ength is addressed > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinu= e work on SRv6+. > + 1 I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet. Tom > > > = Ron > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463142898089E1A22307902AEB50BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

Tom is correct. In SRv6+, there is never any nee= d for one packet to contain two routing headers. SRv6+ relies on prepen= ding, in all cases, including TI-LFA.

 

Because the CRH is short, this works just fine.=

 

I don’t understand your comment about two dest= ination headers. You might want to rethink that.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;          Ron

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:54 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ie= tf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

 

> It doesn't depend on extension header inse= rtion 

 

Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SR= H insertion is an optional optimization. 

 

> and there's no need to have multiple routing he= aders in the same packet.  

 

Really ? 

 

If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and wan= t to to do TI-LFA how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two = Dest Option EHs and two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ? =

 

But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...&nbs= p;

 

All required extensions to protocols developed in to= name just a few already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and = 6MAN WG to support the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close = to SR-MPLS mapping) will require real development resources. 

 

OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just = works" is not addressed and does require even more extensions. 

 

Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my= deployment needs in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that withi= n my overlay I do not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachab= ility provided by third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requires new sign= alling to distribute mapping is non starter. 

 

At the end we should learn from others .... (hint SD= WANs) and avoid mistakes of the past (hint: LDP). 

 

Many thx,

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, = 220;All who wander are not lost.”
>
>
>
> But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>
>
>
> For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed
> Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
> SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>
>
>
> Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+.
>
+ 1

I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and
protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It
doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to
have multiple routing headers in the same packet.

Tom


>
>
>                    &= nbsp;                    =                     &nbs= p;                     Ro= n
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri= ng

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB5463142898089E1A22307902AEB50BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 14:54:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18D212082C for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:54:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xh-XaXdNxg52 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x834.google.com (mail-qt1-x834.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::834]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53EA212081F for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 14:54:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x834.google.com with SMTP id a13so11510510qtj.1 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 14:54:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bJzJGsj2q/G+zDPLIehbnH9pJWc3D6o9L12qBIF9w5Y=; b=TJ7KdDDaF6jO096BKEWy6G7mWnaY24Evby63Jprb4CtbAcsjqZZptmfT2hKZAa94fr D+G1ZKzeHMqBAjW5F2Ryq0r02rc2Qj8C20xWoiCYWs41xi3EZlhp738rccVvbZZfAnLA UZsNFi0bcRLbZVqQC59qPb0H4EXJkkOFq+6trw7rdsXIf/xiqYwW3emfz/uwcCeH+BC4 6UBCSq5bwXFa9JwRZW1OE/lCzooYBVWPabT87u6M7pP7U8kPBxqGYaRj+JHNIISOb8dv s5Ggpg2mJseuVDE4K271j94g+XM2gPW0tSs1d3xpx3DybLC7HdqCAvHd8wwT2WVm7cOJ sZQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bJzJGsj2q/G+zDPLIehbnH9pJWc3D6o9L12qBIF9w5Y=; b=sDIrS7tqR320DMhXXUlikV2dGPldyygFQy8TcX+fbsxyDaxrYimaZKHz1opfK/qYD1 57E2gdQiSB9mtLK3Z5mbt0+DVW2v1rNtEyCGBrNqE2jxBs6Cm+T9yhJ+bR3KA+8wDQu0 0eRk9tNWaZl6XrtHn9x7cO03mj2kx6zEGYPBkVsVipeVWTxxAxg0bON9BU2FSMy7S8Pm tcOpEyMwlN4b5g3qvtiYayrqH13SawRSex6Lcmpzu3idyxd23/K2J4eN+3Uv05Jjfegc 2mV7y+h7nzUrm5MRCuV7Sfzm6V/MI7hF9lXMCz/QyzyAT9Nl1EpF+swXOqfxDAXgKyJF gEMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWgbq02FBsZRqd2evAoOIaF5wZwaZ3pjphVjYtzvysaK8pf9tJS ArsD5jfU/8KX9Q72J3a8ZTS+7BSzG0lk6qhU8pVaWA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzb8KnvuxuStAatFOMvGkzqjCMYHX4f19YyCZEdF66iIms3toj3ORAujJpz8wZMXGc+LVQgVFlm+v4FsrzNC8U= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7959:: with SMTP id r25mr16308114qtt.208.1567893251214; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 14:54:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 23:54:01 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048de030591fd9821" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 21:54:22 -0000 --00000000000048de030591fd9821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tom, > The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains > TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I was hoping you know that this is not true at all so I skipped commenting on that aspect. Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know how to sell stuff which looks simple and innocent on the surface like concept of CRH with just fixed label/sid list while hide all complexity under the deep cover and only show little corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots. So what you call "complexity" has been just moved from routing header to destination options header and will be defined in number of different documents piece by piece. Just please take a look at the proposal describing per path service instructions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value so to me looks like TLV structure going into IPv6 header. 4 = . The PPSI Option The PPSI Option contains the following fields: o Option Type: 8-bit selector. PPSI option. Value TBD by IANA. (Suggested value: 144). See Note below. o Opt Data Len - 8-bit unsigned integer. Length of the option, in octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields. This field MUST be set to 4. o PPSI identifier - (32-bit selector). Identifies a PPSI. REF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-vpn-dest-opt-06 That TLV value comes from Destination Options and Hop-by-Hop Options registry which effectively is already full. It is 8 bit register with 3 first bits taken for identification so remaining are 5 bits. Now from that remaining 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation. https://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xhtml So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the VPN extenstion renamed what originally was called *VPN Context Information Option* to PPSI as it was very obvious that with 5 remaining values there is no room for new types for other service instructions. Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV format any potential new service instructions. Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader to judge which approach is more complex. Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by clearly defining SRv6 SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker with IETF WGs ? Thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > Robert, > > You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote, > not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex > than SRV6+. > > The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains > TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH > and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as > they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of > defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of > SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all > except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is Linux, > which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't > interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked > at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that > SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem > to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol. > > Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is > more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6, > particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex. > > Tom > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > > > > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion > > > > Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an > optional optimization. > > > > > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same > packet. > > > > Really ? > > > > If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how > would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and > two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ? > > > > But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... > > > > All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few > already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support > the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mappin= g) > will require real development resources. > > > > OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed > and does require even more extensions. > > > > Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in th= e > global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not > plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by > third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol > which requires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. > > > > At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid > mistakes of the past (hint: LDP). > > > > Many thx, > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Folks, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately= . > I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, > =E2=80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of > header length is addressed > >> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > >> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to > discontinue work on SRv6+. > >> > > >> + 1 > >> > >> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler > >> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and > >> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It > >> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to > >> have multiple routing headers in the same packet. > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > Ron > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Juniper Business Use Only > >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> > ipv6@ietf.org > >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> spring mailing list > >> spring@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000048de030591fd9821 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Tom,

> The mos= t obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains
>= ;=C2=A0TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't.=C2=A0

I was hop= ing you know that this is not true at all so I skipped commenting on that a= spect.

Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they kn= ow how to sell stuff which looks simple and innocent on the surface like co= ncept of CRH with just fixed label/sid list while hide all complexity under= the deep cover and only show little corners of it here and there hoping no= one will connect the dots.=C2=A0

So what you call= "complexity" has been just moved from routing header to destinat= ion options header and will be defined in number of different documents pie= ce by piece.=C2=A0

Just please take a look at the = proposal describing per path service instructions encoding. It does have Ty= pe Length and Value so to me looks like TLV structure going into IPv6 heade= r.=C2=A0

4.  The PPSI Option


   The PPSI Option contains the following fields:

   o  Option Type: 8-bit selector.  PPSI option.  Value TBD by IANA.
      (Suggested value: 144).  See Note below.

   o  Opt Data Le=
n - 8-bit unsigned integer.  Length of the option, in
      octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields.  This
      field MUST be set to 4.
   o  PPSI identifier - (32-bit selector).  Identifies a PPSI.

REF:=C2=A0htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-vpn-dest-opt-06
That TLV value comes from=C2=A0Destination Options and Hop-by-= Hop Options registry which effectively is already full. It is 8 bit registe= r with 3 first bits taken for identification so remaining are 5 bits. Now f= rom that remaining 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation= .=C2=A0


So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the VPN extenstion = renamed what originally was called=C2=A0VPN Context Information Option to PPSI as it was very obvious that with 5 remaining values there is no = room for new types for other service instructions.=C2=A0

Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV format any poten= tial new service instructions.=C2=A0

Now I will le= ave it as the exercise for the reader to judge which approach is more compl= ex.=C2=A0

Is it to put the cards on the table and = play open by clearly defining SRv6 SRH with SIDs and functions or to play s= uch poker with IETF WGs ?

Thx,
R.
=C2= =A0

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
Robert,

You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote,
not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex
than SRV6+.

The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains
TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, = HBH
and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as
they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of
defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of
SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all
except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is L= inux,
which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked
at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that
SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol.

Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is
more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6,
particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex.

Tom


On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
> > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion
>
> Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an = optional optimization.
>
> > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the s= ame packet.
>
> Really ?
>
> If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how = would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and tw= o CRH EHs in the packet under protection ?
>
> But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...
>
> All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few a= lready proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the= new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) wi= ll require real development resources.
>
> OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not= addressed and does require even more extensions.
>
> Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in t= he global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not = plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by thir= d parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which r= equires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter.
>
> At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mis= takes of the past (hint: LDP).
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
>> <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passi= onately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tol= kien, =E2=80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem= of header length is addressed
>> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
>> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake t= o discontinue work on SRv6+.
>> >
>> + 1
>>
>> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much = simpler
>> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms a= nd
>> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH.= It
>> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's n= o need to
>> have multiple routing headers in the same packet.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Juniper Business Use Only
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> > ipv6@ietf.= org
>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--00000000000048de030591fd9821-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 15:02:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3586E1201C6; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KsyC7ppyjfPa; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E12412018D; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 54FBC86389; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 00:02:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Ole Troan Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , Suresh Krishnan , Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> <1f697fd6-dc77-b8dd-15fb-be23b3c296a4@si6networks.com> <2C6D1E3F-5271-4516-94E6-F08974501DD0@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <0ac79226-906b-6c11-5c6b-7cb7b8bcc336@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 01:00:41 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2C6D1E3F-5271-4516-94E6-F08974501DD0@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 22:02:35 -0000 On 8/9/19 00:32, Ole Troan wrote: > Fernando, > >>> The takeaway I attempted to highlight is that there is in fact >>> agreement between 6man and spring on how to proceed, and we are >>> proceeding as agreed to work on the relevant documents. >> >> I don't really know what the agreement is, other than the implicit >> agreement that if you're considering violating an IPv6 standard, >> you should come to 6man and do a Std Track document that updates >> the relevant standard... > > if there ever is a corner case were header insertion can be done > safely, and the issues it creates mitigated, then that should > certainly not result in an update to the general rule in 8200. 1) As noted in the discussion, there's nothing that you can do with EH-insertion that you cannot do with encap/decap. I don't see enough motivation for an update of this sort -- other than "we want to save 40 bytes". In any case, I repeat what many others have already said: It's on us to find problems on EH-insertion for it to not move forward. There should first be a strong argument made in favor of it. 2) You cannot "mitigate" the implications of EH-insertion at the protocol level (attribution of error messages, MTU issues...). The only possible mitigations are operational, and those quite often fail. 3) While RFC8200 does not employ RFC2119 language (chair's call, not mine), the statement in RFC8200 is pretty much a MUST. You do need to update RFC8200. A reader of RFC8200 should now that there are scenarios in which EH insertion is indeed allowed. Otherwise you end up with two specs (IPv6 and SRv6) that contradict with each other. 4) I expect that, as co-chair, you'd agree with me that allowing EH insertion in IPv6 is a major modification/addition. According to our charter, we don't seem allowed to do that: The 6man working group is responsible for the maintenance, upkeep, and advancement of the IPv6 protocol specifications and addressing architecture. It is not chartered to develop major changes or additions to the IPv6 specifications. I'm quite surprised that a few years ago many of you guys wanted to essentially freeze most work on IPv6, and now you're so open to such a major and fundamental change. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Sep 7 15:06:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DBCB12018D; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:05:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XOErJXKWlvan; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x434.google.com (mail-pf1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A3AF120145; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x434.google.com with SMTP id r12so6799717pfh.1; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 15:05:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2RTppxhfOPYvOfEXgMmoMqlp3fj1kIAY+z5f8/cERCM=; b=oXACluUbESXdwbWpyeA6sChnfNO1X7pI58oSMBFoGhc3bSKp6DfeLywXKmHaE+PYQg RgfFvNx/i3SAAuKnQsmj0y6boCqRzezeLwUKz867VgAAVv6lymqp9tVg/GDGSNVNY9Az u83n/0W009FYgnyK97ATkxWAJDZFNXjJ0kTId2m/0OFqc5i3PXDuAbdOd9uxstKnPVdF AtFAe3kTdHNu9bIZKRk44HTwEtWh1terhOs+AYAflA2NFMUObOgRrWUgbkxZh7I+haBn 2ofPfoPC8oBSbVQJKgVlXuHqoPOc14NyRGoDioA31E1w2VQrYhWwvqjiknAqt7Z/RTMg D3Fw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2RTppxhfOPYvOfEXgMmoMqlp3fj1kIAY+z5f8/cERCM=; b=nJzG5pbTORjqa1hxiaqx7nvTQaEdh/EN1T1jWUVrYV9c7caCvlej7Pe7zqEvBcWvt+ 9ZpiWdPFFXcPVyMhsYVOORaYb/HVEKgb/7nbHWc/l7MmX7npKEsTX+N9y5riF8eVjszt wVWocAYTi0XpO56cmsclk0ZvjHjG+CSGXoY//J9/5xs+mVQVw9suEtRKICIOQ1IOKMtw kYwftlS1g/gU4mvVRG3G4PLdOxOk0WIEPAfPHYJ2sb2745VbZ89LYPx5f5FJBdpeb0HH M+3KyLXXKQWE9LUQc3q4B44XBva8Ay1OjhoZaFBTvgK5ZTZb9ucpZl//cJnQH7HVI5NA uJUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV/rCru0ln0tRxfr3B3Gz+8CntCT47o4nM0v+p0FE9nEUm2g0hz xlHvrsLzWVMqhob99S2mK2ChKUUSHoEI7Opr8D8q5XM/XlI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwFtWrr9M94oUMEOW2LcYl2aTIj6FvgRC/qOrSlXl6RU90XabxTrbNloJ2Y4rOLx3YlVe1xF+6P+8dgVL3GvZA= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9386:: with SMTP id t6mr19413511pfe.214.1567893949261; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 15:05:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 00:05:39 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Tom Herbert , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e42dc90591fdc1a7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 22:05:54 -0000 --000000000000e42dc90591fdc1a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron, > SRv6+ relies on prepending Interesting ... can you elaborate how you will do TI-LFA with SRv6+ ? If you have slides showing packet format when TI-LFA is performed in the middle of SRv6+ domain please just kindly fell free to share a pointer to it. > I don=E2=80=99t understand your comment about two destination headers And I do not understand what you may not understand. Is your "prepending" the same what some may consider "insertion" then ? Thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:52 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > Tom is correct. In SRv6+, there is never any need for one packet to > contain two routing headers. SRv6+ relies on prepending, in all cases, > including TI-LFA. > > > > Because the CRH is short, this works just fine. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t understand your comment about two destination headers. Yo= u might > want to rethink that. > > > > Ron > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:54 PM > *To:* Tom Herbert > *Cc:* Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > > > > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion > > > > Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an > optional optimization. > > > > > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same > packet. > > > > Really ? > > > > If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how > would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and > two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ? > > > > But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... > > > > All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few > already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support > the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mappin= g) > will require real development resources. > > > > OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed an= d > does require even more extensions. > > > > Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the > global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not > plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by > third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol > which requires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. > > > > At the end we should learn from others .... (hint SDWANs) and avoid > mistakes of the past (hint: LDP). > > > > Many thx, > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I > think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll > who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > > > > > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header > length is addressed > > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to > discontinue work on SRv6+. > > > + 1 > > I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler > than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and > protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It > doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to > have multiple routing headers in the same packet. > > Tom > > > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --000000000000e42dc90591fdc1a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,

=
&= gt; SRv6+ relies on prepending=C2=A0
Interesting ... can you elaborate how you will do= TI-LFA with SRv6+ ? If you have slides showing packet format when TI-LFA i= s performed in the middle of SRv6+ domain please just kindly fell free to s= hare a pointer to it.

= > I don=E2=80=99t= understand your comment about two destination headers=C2=A0=C2=A0

And I do not unders= tand what you may not understand. Is your "prepending" the same w= hat some may consider "insertion" then ?=C2=A0

Thx,
R.



On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 = at 11:52 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

Tom is correct. In SRv6+, there is never any need fo= r one packet to contain two routing headers. SRv6+ relies on prepending, in= all cases, including TI-LFA.

=C2=A0

Because the CRH is short, this works just fine.

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t understand your comment about two de= stination headers. You might want to rethink that.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:54 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> It=C2=A0doesn't depend on extension header = insertion=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SR= H insertion is an optional optimization.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> and there's no need to have multiple routin= g headers in the same packet.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Really ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to= to do TI-LFA how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest= Option EHs and two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

All required extensions to protocols developed in to= name just a few already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN= WG to support the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to S= R-MPLS mapping) will require real development resources.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just = works" is not addressed and does require even more extensions.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my dep= loyment needs in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my= overlay I do not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachabilit= y provided by third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requires new sign= alling to distribute mapping is non starter.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

At the end we should learn from others .... (hint SD= WANs) and avoid mistakes of the past (hint: LDP).=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Many thx,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com= > wrote:

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =E2= =80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>
>
>
> For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed
> Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
> SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>
>
>
> Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+.
>
+ 1

I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and
protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It
doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to=
have multiple routing headers in the same packet.

Tom


>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Ron
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
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=C2=A0

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--000000000000e42dc90591fdc1a7-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 15:24:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFF21201DB for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:24:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZN1LkGLjKa0a for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2038C12018D for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id u184so6314994qkd.4 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 15:24:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IlLSBi4Tqr1Yi+3FA+cJFYkHxSvcyKRxb2hzY1HqdSA=; b=EX4GYBpraDOBDzVehyBkYrYy3jselGru8o25awx6sdeu3DyPwcImreejdmqQN8m/ux /lAPxIaygl0t9i5cl48kIbyIvjckvtVzuRmUfUFboz0/AmDC+e1aaUkYzTDwHL6em4pe 4akorLGWdjhi03Knyr10jQNNP9o1Nm+N/U6nBS506kQbwHN+BJkdYWHJc0Tjp8/RC5aK GD/2UAz8+CXQbF2yXYpyOMPFNm+x7h82lugcG3bZbI4dnTGvv2pz1FYbk6cn0oLibdzS RWUawX5v5ZKiZrL8+SfkzhzBDDfZRehZVB7IWrZ1wA86mQZP17HpkEAOv0m7avqlIhaA kKaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IlLSBi4Tqr1Yi+3FA+cJFYkHxSvcyKRxb2hzY1HqdSA=; b=EQW6S33WFsi487ChAc+8KgnNBXpSF1EiyC4/LNPX9LrE8iD9fcY2EIOMqQuPCHZeXW oG0XoU6M4bZc8tAcKMx1rmEuA+d7utae4nLOxx+1NuxKo/pDaRtkwa4rw22WQClNlJvR pXbEUPoFUlnWIM9mWEXMAzeXleYMbR+r5gCDISRmokXAMWT6PBIvdF+muGW64+TyE09w 1CTBxDN0kGDxK8tFwIXf9F+Pyuhntn94JrBkUXTZbc5SQwGGBzFDRIVJNQROLr9yeNWo NP9c1sWuMa/sWLalYRPLYCQ4IITgaD4iNxJkpyscNaI2LoVIb4kl2zDIHyOPwEurGvUq 9u+g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUvwLqKLEwOGSz+E5iDeUfjSI3i34lcx0QdvwpMonigf8D+LK2c bfPTs6DcXJLJAbP15o0ntqSLWLkgdSfX2jMnyx9dW2OO X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyTrqIQwoY10oRZrxXWO2aBk1jF+yHWmyQ8aMpYzUYIshAaG5aDDjdYRRyCqbCOb2soi3dEMlDz79LRHx0wPcE= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a7c5:: with SMTP id q188mr13872215qke.445.1567895046073; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 15:24:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> <1f697fd6-dc77-b8dd-15fb-be23b3c296a4@si6networks.com> <2C6D1E3F-5271-4516-94E6-F08974501DD0@employees.org> <0ac79226-906b-6c11-5c6b-7cb7b8bcc336@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <0ac79226-906b-6c11-5c6b-7cb7b8bcc336@si6networks.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 00:23:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: Ole Troan , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004442bf0591fe03f0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 22:24:09 -0000 --0000000000004442bf0591fe03f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, > 4) I expect that, as co-chair, you'd agree with me that allowing EH > insertion in IPv6 is a major modification/addition. According to our > charter, we don't seem allowed to do that: Do you need a new charter to be allowed to standardize extensions to IPv6 header and their operations like SRH ? That is not what AD and chairs said and one would assume they know better how to guide the work in the group. Because if this is really the case - we should indeed stop any efforts in this regard and perhaps seriously start considering a new WG formation to work on new IP header design perhaps even backwards compatible with current IPv6 "legacy". In the meantime - if what you communicate is true WG consensus - proposals for addition of EH to IPv4 become not only nice to have, but in fact very useful to have. Thx, r. --0000000000004442bf0591fe03f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
=C2=A0
=
4) I expect that, as co-c= hair, you'd agree with me that allowing EH
insertion in IPv6 is a major modification/addition. According to our
charter, we don't seem allowed to do that:

<= div>Do you need a new charter to be allowed to standardize extensions to IP= v6 header and their operations like SRH ? That is not what AD and chairs sa= id and one would assume they know better how to guide the work in the group= .=C2=A0

Because if this is really the case - w= e should indeed stop any efforts in this=C2=A0regard and perhaps seriously = start considering a new WG formation to work on new IP header design perhap= s even backwards compatible with current IPv6 "legacy".=C2=A0

In the meantime - if what you communicate is true WG = consensus - proposals for addition of EH to IPv4 become not only nice to ha= ve, but in fact very useful to have.=C2=A0

Thx,
r.

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, except for the part where = you said that I was smart!) The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6. But it does not replace th= e SRH's tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the low order bits in the last SID= . More specially, it identifies a function to be executed by SR egress node= . It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.) As Tom says, the CRH is much simpler to parse that the SRH. It contains on= ly five fields, four of which are mandated by RFC 8200. (The other is the S= ID list.) Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It identifies an instructi= on to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the same information as an= MPLS service label or the low order bits of the final SID in as SRv6 SID l= ist. What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being nearly full may be a bit = of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop= options, but is totally meaningless for Destination options. So, for desti= nation options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide. Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:54 PM To: Tom Herbert Cc: Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Dear Tom, > The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains > TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I was hoping you know that this is not true at all so I skipped commenting = on that aspect. Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know how to sell stuff which looks= simple and innocent on the surface like concept of CRH with just fixed lab= el/sid list while hide all complexity under the deep cover and only show li= ttle corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots. So what you call "complexity" has been just moved from routing header to de= stination options header and will be defined in number of different documen= ts piece by piece. Just please take a look at the proposal describing per path service instruc= tions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value so to me looks like TLV = structure going into IPv6 header. 4. The PPSI Option The PPSI Option contains the following fields: o Option Type: 8-bit selector. PPSI option. Value TBD by IANA. (Suggested value: 144). See Note below. o Opt Data Len - 8-bit unsigned integer. Length of the option, in octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields. This field MUST be set to 4. o PPSI identifier - (32-bit selector). Identifies a PPSI. REF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-vpn-dest-opt-06 That TLV value comes from Destination Options and Hop-by-Hop Options regist= ry which effectively is already full. It is 8 bit register with 3 first bit= s taken for identification so remaining are 5 bits. Now from that remaining= 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation.. https://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xhtml So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the VPN extenstion renamed= what originally was called VPN Context Information Option to PPSI as it wa= s very obvious that with 5 remaining values there is no room for new types = for other service instructions. Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV format any potential ne= w service instructions. Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader to judge which approach = is more complex. Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by clearly defining SRv6 = SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker with IETF WGs ? Thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: Robert, You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote, not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex than SRV6+. The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is Linux, which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol. Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6, particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex. Tom On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk > wrote: > > > > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion > > Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an opt= ional optimization. > > > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet= . > > Really ? > > If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how wou= ld I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and two C= RH EHs in the packet under protection ? > > But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... > > All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few alre= ady proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the ne= w mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will = require real development resources. > > OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed an= d does require even more extensions. > > Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the = global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not pla= n to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third p= arties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requ= ires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. > > At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistak= es of the past (hint: LDP). > > Many thx, > R. > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: >> >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica >> > wrote: >> > >> > Folks, >> > >> > >> > >> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, "Al= l who wander are not lost." >> > >> > >> > >> > But it may be time to refocus on the following: >> > >> > >> > >> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed >> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered >> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution >> > >> > >> > >> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+. >> > >> + 1 >> >> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler >> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and >> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It >> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to >> have multiple routing headers in the same packet. >> >> Tom >> >> >> > >> > >> > = Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB54638B53905A97EB0C803862AEB50BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, exc= ept for the part where you said that I was smart!)

 

The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6.= But it does not replace the SRH’s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces t= he low order bits in the last SID. More specially, it identifies a function= to be executed by SR egress node. It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.)

 

As Tom says,  the CRH is much simpler to parse = that the SRH. It contains only five fields, four of which are mandated by R= FC 8200. (The other is the SID list.)  

 

Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It = identifies an instruction to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the= same information as an MPLS service label or the low order bits of the fin= al SID in as SRv6 SID list.

 

What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being ne= arly full may be a bit of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is m= eaningful of hop-by-hop options, but is totally meaningless for Destination= options. So, for destination options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             = Ron

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:54 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ie= tf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Dear Tom,

 

> The most obvious difference, besides SID size, = is that SRV6 contains

> TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. 

 

I was hoping you know that this is not true at all s= o I skipped commenting on that aspect.

 

Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know ho= w to sell stuff which looks simple and innocent on the surface like concept= of CRH with just fixed label/sid list while hide all complexity under the = deep cover and only show little corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots. =

 

So what you call "complexity" has been jus= t moved from routing header to destination options header and will be defin= ed in number of different documents piece by piece. 

 

Just please take a look at the proposal describing p= er path service instructions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value s= o to me looks like TLV structure going into IPv6 header. 

 

4.  The PPSI Option

 
 
   The PPSI Option contains the =
following fields:
 
   o  Option Type: 8-bit se=
lector.  PPSI option.  Value TBD by IANA.
      (Suggested =
value: 144).  See Note below.
   o=
  Opt Data Len - 8-bit unsigned integer.  Length of the option, i=
n
      octets, exc=
luding the Option Type and Option Length fields.  This
      field MUST =
be set to 4.
   o  PPSI identifier - (32=
-bit selector).  Identifies a PPSI.

 

 

That TLV value comes from Destination Options a= nd Hop-by-Hop Options registry which effectively is already full. It is 8 b= it register with 3 first bits taken for identification so remaining are 5 b= its. Now from that remaining 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation.. 

 

 

So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the= VPN extenstion renamed what originally was called VPN Context Info= rmation Option to PPSI as it was very obvious that with 5 remaining val= ues there is no room for new types for other service instructions. 

 

Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV = format any potential new service instructions. 

 

Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader t= o judge which approach is more complex. 

 

Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by= clearly defining SRv6 SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker wi= th IETF WGs ?

 

Thx,
R.

 

 

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:<= /o:p>

Robert,

You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote,
not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex
than SRV6+.

The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains
TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH<= br> and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as
they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of
SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all
except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is L= inux,
which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't
interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked
at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that
SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem
to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol.

Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is
more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6,
particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex.

Tom


On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
> > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion
>
> Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an = optional optimization.
>
> > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same = packet.
>
> Really ?
>
> If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA = how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs an= d two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ?
>
> But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...
>
> All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few a= lready proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support= the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping= ) will require real development resources.
>
> OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not= addressed and does require even more extensions.
>
> Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs = in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do = not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by = third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requires new signalling to distribute= mapping is non starter.
>
> At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mis= takes of the past (hint: LDP).
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
>> <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passi= onately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tol= kien, “All who wander are not lost.”
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem= of header length is addressed
>> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
>> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake t= o discontinue work on SRv6+.
>> >
>> + 1
>>
>> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much = simpler
>> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms a= nd
>> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH.= It
>> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need t= o
>> have multiple routing headers in the same packet.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >                 =                     &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp;                     =   Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Juniper Business Use Only
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> > ipv6@ietf.= org
>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB54638B53905A97EB0C803862AEB50BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 15:40:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A119112018D; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:40:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7m48nWw-O2iS; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E713120145; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B5C386355; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 00:40:49 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ole Troan , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> <1f697fd6-dc77-b8dd-15fb-be23b3c296a4@si6networks.com> <2C6D1E3F-5271-4516-94E6-F08974501DD0@employees.org> <0ac79226-906b-6c11-5c6b-7cb7b8bcc336@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <98ffe27a-37de-cf41-156b-5b0fc2214675@si6networks.com> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 01:40:43 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 22:40:53 -0000 On 8/9/19 01:23, Robert Raszuk wrote: [...] > > 4) I expect that, as co-chair, you'd agree with me that allowing EH > insertion in IPv6 is a major modification/addition. According to our > charter, we don't seem allowed to do that: > > > Do you need a new charter to be allowed to standardize extensions to > IPv6 header and their operations like SRH ? That is not what AD and > chairs said and one would assume they know better how to guide the work > in the group. WGs do have a charter, which specifies what the WG does. That's why, in the extreme case, 6man doesn't do TCP stuff. Charters are not casted into stone, though. > Because if this is really the case - we should indeed stop any efforts > in this regard and perhaps seriously start considering a new WG > formation to work on new IP header design perhaps even backwards > compatible with current IPv6 "legacy". Besides having my own personal opinion, I'd say that no matter the path you want to follow (or need to follow) to pursue this, you really should have a much stronger and complete document than the current proposal. > In the meantime - if what you communicate is true WG consensus - I'm not entitled to communicate things for the wg. I made a comment about the charter -- a side comment that came up while noting that EH-insertion does *not* seem to be a minor addition/modification to IPv6. > proposals for addition of EH to IPv4 become not only nice to have, but > in fact very useful to have. I'm not sure I follow... -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sat Sep 7 15:41:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EADD120833; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OCQdXb4dAIVx; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I don't have slides, but it should be pretty easy to describe. Rather than = inserting a second Routing header between the IPv6 header and the existing = router, Arv6+ the following: * Update SL and the IPv6 destination address, if required * Prepend an IPv6 header with its own Routing header Also, I don't understand your comment about a packet with two SRv6+ Destina= tion Options headers. I can't think of a situation where that ever happens. = Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 6:06 PM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Tom Herbert ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Ron, > SRv6+ relies on prepending Interesting ... can you elaborate how you will do TI-LFA with SRv6+ ? If yo= u have slides showing packet format when TI-LFA is performed in the middle = of SRv6+ domain please just kindly fell free to share a pointer to it. > I don't understand your comment about two destination headers And I do not understand what you may not understand. Is your "prepending" t= he same what some may consider "insertion" then ? Thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:52 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Robert, Tom is correct. In SRv6+, there is never any need for one packet to contain= two routing headers. SRv6+ relies on prepending, in all cases, including T= I-LFA. Because the CRH is short, this works just fine. I don't understand your comment about two destination headers. You might wa= nt to rethink that. Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:54 PM To: Tom Herbert > Cc: Ron Bonica >; spring@ie= tf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an optio= nal optimization. > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet. Really ? If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how would= I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and two CRH= EHs in the packet under protection ? But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few alread= y proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the new = mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will re= quire real development resources. OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed and = does require even more extensions. Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the gl= obal IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not plan = to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third par= ties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requir= es new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. At the end we should learn from others .... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistake= s of the past (hint: LDP). Many thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: > > Folks, > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I t= hink that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, "All w= ho wander are not lost." > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header l= ength is addressed > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinu= e work on SRv6+. > + 1 I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet. Tom > > > = Ron > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB546320101126FDB308949FFDAEB50BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

I don’t have slides, but it should be pretty e= asy to describe. Rather than inserting a second Routing header between the = IPv6 header and the existing router, Arv6+ the following:

 

  • Update SL and the IPv6 destination address, if required
  • Prepend an IPv6 header with its own Routing header
    • <= /ul>

     

    Also, I don’t understand your comment about a = packet with two SRv6+ Destination Options headers. I can’t think = of a situation where that ever happens.

     

            &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;        Ron

     

    From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>=
    Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 6:06 PM
    To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
    Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@i= etf.org
    Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

     

    Ron,

     

    > SRv6+ relies on prepending <= /span>

     

    Interesting ... can you elaborate how you will do TI-= LFA with SRv6+ ? If you have slides showing packet format when TI-LFA i= s performed in the middle of SRv6+ domain please just kindly fell free to share a pointer to it.

     

    > I don’t understand your comment about two = destination headers  

     

    And I do not understand what you may not understand. = Is your "prepending" the same what some may consider "insert= ion" then ? 

     

    Thx,

    R.

     

     

     

    On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:52 PM Ron Bonica <rboni= ca=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ie= tf.org> wrote:

    Robert,

     

    Tom is correct. In SRv6+, there is never any need for one pack= et to contain two routing headers. SRv6+ relies on prepending, in all c= ases, including TI-LFA.

     

    Because the CRH is short, this works just fine.

     

    I don’t understand your comment about two destination header= s. You might want to rethink that.

     

               =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =         Ron

     

     

    From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
    Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:54 PM
    To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
    Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"> 6man@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

     

     

    > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion 

     

    Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is= an optional optimization. 

     

    > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the s= ame packet.  

     

    Really ? 

     

    If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-= LFA how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EH= s and two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ? 

     

    But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... <= /p>

     

    All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a f= ew already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to sup= port the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will require real development resou= rces. 

     

    OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is= not addressed and does require even more extensions. 

     

    Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment ne= eds in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I= do not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third parties is all I need to construct op= timal paths. So any protocol which requires new signalling to distribute ma= pping is non starter. 

     

    At the end we should learn from others .... (hint SDWANs) and avoi= d mistakes of the past (hint: LDP). 

     

    Many thx,

    R.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:

    On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
    <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    >
    > Folks,
    >
    >
    >
    > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, = 220;All who wander are not lost.”
    >
    >
    >
    > But it may be time to refocus on the following:
    >
    >
    >
    > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed
    > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
    > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
    >
    >
    >
    > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+.
    >
    + 1

    I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and
    protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It
    doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to
    have multiple routing headers in the same packet.

    Tom


    >
    >
    >                    &= nbsp;                    =                     &nbs= p;                     Ro= n
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Juniper Business Use Only
    >
    > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
    > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri= ng

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

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--_000_BYAPR05MB546320101126FDB308949FFDAEB50BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 15:55:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22994120145 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:55:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XccY82FsPwn9 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63F4B12018D for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id u184so6351776qkd.4 for ; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 15:55:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PGrRpTywrmQDXTZ1bMY7GxbjPpTxiImejwWauBpVSbA=; b=Rs/gSzijQslazc4IuvEOfTyi60g1/uJYaI/PHtmSVtwFNVC9gfpyK7/vwYr4thpxc1 7vUyJjsnnEbuaBda8uVuMMhVhWyVWos3XNzDX4VaO++WbdFgVWQlbAg+Tf380rt3Sy93 F8kY2pY1SIiSNNHpmYWXQwyDQHO3/mijH3ZMTKrGkRUwztep5hTF45+zLk4rcQ+1JyzG gwl2iAZ0BRQqofPEFv/d8Fn3pO2Lvor6k06pB74XVT0+uJ9spk0ZNHAQR4ESVp7pQrGQ WFv42I2WVg8Q/LF+F3UvrkqLge4VLT/wqJAC2W3yY81ej0T6+jJjs1p+kxanrI9N20IW z9zQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PGrRpTywrmQDXTZ1bMY7GxbjPpTxiImejwWauBpVSbA=; b=J4efYEk0izgXIzsPt9o1MLndnC5ktNEZ1QNNeUlagTyYCVFAwbBIkzA4p6bWzGaDhm WJdfBqmrNmTOssFnNw6kQzbXml3LCHr6LBCF+rGNMo5n5W+C94Y1M2cMr/QlnBmXRY2x synEPTLKnpQ2ZVLOynMYK75np9rXazPBVwe7UQiyJb1sbm27Z/gjPRg7AyhhCViX5+XA 1WsvUkuzQ3yOrGlDLl3iI8ZfRibv9mpRWPSSROpV+hmddmsEC/N0nCvZFWKDbRbmV6tX 9ZnS3iBjXUtNxOaiLrbSFtnAdH4ekYAHgBg6H6EK5CYXBmKXM3kRWdEkYuxumWtgzR5a PLew== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUMkQlzeyjYLrQeXFC+7vvkDrlrpvEFKKk7hU6vaOu+vPbZtSB2 +JsXSwr2JB4DHJQAE8MJpVhVxcoYeL9xOtDA+S8viw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzsRbMIml19RE4PUBYJ1ps0lcM4Ce3/MRnCIh9nq+2tikpUzo/WOt+9KYycvMxZh7u63bcOH9F3SnrhGA7k+wA= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6144:: with SMTP id v65mr15681825qkb.465.1567896902393; Sat, 07 Sep 2019 15:55:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 00:54:52 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Tom Herbert , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9772b0591fe714c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 22:55:06 -0000 --000000000000e9772b0591fe714c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Ron, You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, except for the part where > you said that I was smart!) > ;-) > The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6. But it does not replace > the SRH=E2=80=99s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the low order bits in = the last > SID. More specially, it identifies a function to be executed by SR egress > node. It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.= ) > > > > As Tom says, the CRH is much simpler to parse that the SRH. It contains > only five fields, four of which are mandated by RFC 8200. (The other is t= he > SID list.) > The point is that CRH alone is not enough to make any jugement about SRv6+ complexity. > Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It identifies an > instruction to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the same > information as an MPLS service label or the low order bits of the final S= ID > in as SRv6 SID list. > When you can provide pointer to SFC document describing how it would work with SRv6+ similar to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xuclad-spring-sr-service-chaining-00 whic= h does require many elements from SRH we will resume the discussion. What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being nearly full may be a bit > of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-h= op > options, but is totally meaningless for Destination options. So, for > destination options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide. > Are you proposing to split this registry into two ? to get 32 more values for your destination options types ? And then what ? Best, R. PS from your last mail ... > Prepend an IPv6 header with its own Routing header So this is exactly what I was concluding. The packet under TI-LFA protection in SRv6+ will end up with three IPv6 fixed headers, min two CRH headers, and anywhere from zero to two (depending on the functions required) Dest Options header before Routing Header. --000000000000e9772b0591fe714c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Ron,

You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, exc= ept for the part where you said that I was smart!)


;-)=C2=A0
=C2=A0

The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6. But= it does not replace the SRH=E2=80=99s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the= low order bits in the last SID. More specially, it identifies a function t= o be executed by SR egress node. It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.)

=C2=A0

As Tom says, =C2=A0the CRH is much simpler to parse = that the SRH. It contains only five fields, four of which are mandated by R= FC 8200. (The other is the SID list.) =C2=A0



The point is that CRH alone is not enough = to make any jugement about SRv6+ complexity.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It = identifies an instruction to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the= same information as an MPLS service label or the low order bits of the fin= al SID in as SRv6 SID list.


When you can provide pointer to SFC document describing how it would work = with SRv6+ similar to=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xuclad= -spring-sr-service-chaining-00=C2=A0which does require many elements fr= om SRH we will resume the discussion.=C2=A0


<= div class=3D"gmail-m_-4827881125568993979WordSection1">

What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being nearly full may be a b= it of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-= hop options, but is totally meaningless for Destination options. So, for de= stination options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide.


Are you proposing to split this registry into two ?= to get 32 more values for your destination options types ? And then what ?= =C2=A0

Best,
R.

PS from your last mail ...=C2=A0

> Prepend an = IPv6 header with its own Routing header=C2=A0=C2=A0

So this is exactly what I was concluding. The packet under TI-LFA pro= tection in SRv6+ will end up with three IPv6 fixed headers, min two CRH hea= ders, and anywhere from zero to two (depending on the functions required) D= est Options header before Routing Header.=C2=A0

--000000000000e9772b0591fe714c-- From nobody Sat Sep 7 16:01:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 813DD12018D; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:01:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bDq_qnxLgEpA; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A156120145; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46Qqff3WFCzcdCK; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:01:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1567897274; bh=pODFYDCtE+Nijg1Bkmf9tCuCVqtdhPDf63Qzyz9Q5EM=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=pLKYkNk3SoZnD1jwam/4r3beP6RztFTwgVtdt61nzJudG6pqFXLphgPNJi3kFngjj D0/dBk7fP0Y/34vhS86ANsOH436wXv9XCtm1O44uUrxtpWPBiZBw9MA+51fl5yI4E8 BhVFDS98tuyKxP6hmCuRqQXS7T1jt07miKauks44= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.7.244] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46Qqfd6QV9zFqXt; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 16:01:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <078667bf-3785-4100-0a53-d8e90f844fd4@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 19:01:10 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ - Service Chaining X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 23:01:17 -0000 With regard to service chaining, with either SRv6 or SRv6+, the interoperable mechanism for service function chaining is to carry NSH. Carrying the content of the NSH header in SRv6 SRH PDUs, while technically doable, is complexity that is not needed. Yours, Joel On 9/7/2019 6:54 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hey Ron, > > You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, except for the part > where you said that I was smart!) > > > ;-) > > ____ > > The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6. But it does not > replace the SRH’s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the low order > bits in the last SID. More specially, it identifies a function to be > executed by SR egress node. It replaces functions like END.DT4, > END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.)____ > > __ __ > > As Tom says,  the CRH is much simpler to parse that the SRH. It > contains only five fields, four of which are mandated by RFC 8200. > (The other is the SID list.) > > > > The point is that CRH alone is not enough to make any jugement about > SRv6+ complexity. > > > ____ > > Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It identifies an > instruction to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the same > information as an MPLS service label or the low order bits of the > final SID in as SRv6 SID list. > > > When you can provide pointer to SFC document describing how it would > work with SRv6+ similar to > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xuclad-spring-sr-service-chaining-00 which > does require many elements from SRH we will resume the discussion. > > > What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being nearly full may be > a bit of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is meaningful > of hop-by-hop options, but is totally meaningless for Destination > options. So, for destination options, the IPv6 option registry is > actually 6 bits wide. > > > Are you proposing to split this registry into two ? to get 32 more > values for your destination options types ? And then what ? > > Best, > R. > > PS from your last mail ... > > > Prepend an IPv6 header with its own Routing header > > So this is exactly what I was concluding. The packet under TI-LFA > protection in SRv6+ will end up with three IPv6 fixed headers, min two > CRH headers, and anywhere from zero to two (depending on the functions > required) Dest Options header before Routing Header. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nobody Sat Sep 7 17:55:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0715120047; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 17:55:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f-HHOzm3ct4p; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 17:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B968B120025; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 17:54:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 1A95ABA9FC2867E1A841; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 01:54:55 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML412-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.73) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 01:54:54 +0100 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml412-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 08:54:44 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: Ron Bonica , Robert Raszuk , Tom Herbert CC: spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: AdVksp60lvODxAs3RT63wMugcqrHYQApVyaAAAKNagAAByuHAAABNTOAAAFMS4AAFcbkPg== Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 00:54:43 +0000 Message-ID: 8C76C2A5-ED1F-468E-9BF6-9285DEC5B760 References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8C76C2A5ED1F468E9BF69285DEC5B760_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 00:55:02 -0000 --_000_8C76C2A5ED1F468E9BF69285DEC5B760_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop options, but is totally meaningless= for Destination options. CHG is meaningful for both. Also I think the use of unique last-5bits of option is just a week recommen= dation. There is still enough space of 8bit if needed. It's not necessary = to change interpretation of CHG. Thanks Jingrong From:Ron Bonica To:Robert Raszuk ;Tom Herbert Cc:spring ;6man <6man@ietf.org> Date:2019-09-08 06:32:00 SubjectRE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Robert, You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, except for the part where = you said that I was smart!) The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6. But it does not replace th= e SRH=92s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the low order bits in the last S= ID. More specially, it identifies a function to be executed by SR egress no= de. It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.) As Tom says, the CRH is much simpler to parse that the SRH. It contains on= ly five fields, four of which are mandated by RFC 8200. (The other is the S= ID list.) Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It identifies an instructi= on to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the same information as an= MPLS service label or the low order bits of the final SID in as SRv6 SID l= ist. What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being nearly full may be a bit = of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop= options, but is totally meaningless for Destination options. So, for desti= nation options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide. Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:54 PM To: Tom Herbert Cc: Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Dear Tom, > The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains > TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I was hoping you know that this is not true at all so I skipped commenting = on that aspect. Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know how to sell stuff which looks= simple and innocent on the surface like concept of CRH with just fixed lab= el/sid list while hide all complexity under the deep cover and only show li= ttle corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots. So what you call "complexity" has been just moved from routing header to de= stination options header and will be defined in number of different documen= ts piece by piece. Just please take a look at the proposal describing per path service instruc= tions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value so to me looks like TLV = structure going into IPv6 header. 4. The PPSI Option The PPSI Option contains the following fields: o Option Type: 8-bit selector. PPSI option. Value TBD by IANA. (Suggested value: 144). See Note below. o Opt Data Len - 8-bit unsigned integer. Length of the option, in octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields. This field MUST be set to 4. o PPSI identifier - (32-bit selector). Identifies a PPSI. REF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-vpn-dest-opt-06 That TLV value comes from Destination Options and Hop-by-Hop Options regist= ry which effectively is already full. It is 8 bit register with 3 first bit= s taken for identification so remaining are 5 bits. Now from that remaining= 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation.. https://www..iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xhtml So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the VPN extenstion renamed= what originally was called VPN Context Information Option to PPSI as it wa= s very obvious that with 5 remaining values there is no room for new types = for other service instructions. Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV format any potential ne= w service instructions. Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader to judge which approach = is more complex. Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by clearly defining SRv6 = SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker with IETF WGs ? Thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: Robert, You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote, not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex than SRV6+. The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is Linux, which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol. Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6, particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex. Tom On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk > wrote: > > > > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion > > Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an opt= ional optimization. > > > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet= . > > Really ? > > If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how wou= ld I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and two C= RH EHs in the packet under protection ? > > But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... > > All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few alre= ady proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the ne= w mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will = require real development resources. > > OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed an= d does require even more extensions. > > Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the = global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not pla= n to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third p= arties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requ= ires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. > > At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistak= es of the past (hint: LDP). > > Many thx, > R. > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: >> >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica >> > wrote: >> > >> > Folks, >> > >> > >> > >> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, =93= All who wander are not lost.=94 >> > >> > >> > >> > But it may be time to refocus on the following: >> > >> > >> > >> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed >> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered >> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution >> > >> > >> > >> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+. >> > >> + 1 >> >> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler >> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and >> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It >> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to >> have multiple routing headers in the same packet. >> >> Tom >> >> >> > >> > >> > = Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only --_000_8C76C2A5ED1F468E9BF69285DEC5B760_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop options, but is totally meanin= gless for Destination options.

CHG is meaningful for both.
Also I think the use of unique last-5bits of option is just a week recommen= dation.  There is still enough space of 8bit if needed. It's not neces= sary to change interpretation of CHG.

Thanks
Jingrong
From:Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40= juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
To:Robert Raszuk <robert@rasz= uk.net>;Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc:spring <spring@ietf.org>= ;;6man <6man@ietf.org>
Date:2019-09-08 06:32:00
SubjectRE: [spring] Regaining Fo= cus on SRv6 and SRv6+

Robert,

 

You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, exc= ept for the part where you said that I was smart!)

 

The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6.= But it does not replace the SRH=92s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the l= ow order bits in the last SID. More specially, it identifies a function to = be executed by SR egress node. It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.)

 

As Tom says,  the CRH is much simpler to parse = that the SRH. It contains only five fields, four of which are mandated by R= FC 8200. (The other is the SID list.)  

 

Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It = identifies an instruction to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the= same information as an MPLS service label or the low order bits of the fin= al SID in as SRv6 SID list.

 

What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being ne= arly full may be a bit of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is m= eaningful of hop-by-hop options, but is totally meaningless for Destination= options. So, for destination options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             = Ron

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:54 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ie= tf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Dear Tom,

 

> The most obvious difference, besides SID size, = is that SRV6 contains

> TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. 

 

I was hoping you know that this is not true at all s= o I skipped commenting on that aspect.

 

Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know ho= w to sell stuff which looks simple and innocent on the surface like concept= of CRH with just fixed label/sid list while hide all complexity under the = deep cover and only show little corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots. 

 

So what you call "complexity" has been jus= t moved from routing header to destination options header and will be defin= ed in number of different documents piece by piece. 

 

Just please take a look at the proposal describing p= er path service instructions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value s= o to me looks like TLV structure going into IPv6 header. 

 

4= .  The PPSI Option

 
 
   The PPSI Option contains the =
following fields:
 
   o  Option Type: 8-bit se=
lector.  PPSI option.  Value TBD by IANA.
      (Suggested =
value: 144).  See Note below.
   o  Opt Data L=
en - 8-bit unsigned integer.  Length of the option, in
      octets, exc=
luding the Option Type and Option Length fields.  This
      field MUST =
be set to 4.
   o  PPSI identifier - (32=
-bit selector).  Identifies a PPSI.

 

 

That TLV value comes from Destination Options a= nd Hop-by-Hop Options registry which effectively is already full. It is 8 b= it register with 3 first bits taken for identification so remaining are 5 b= its. Now from that remaining 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation.. 

 

 

So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the= VPN extenstion renamed what originally was called VPN Context Info= rmation Option to PPSI as it was very obvious that with 5 remaining val= ues there is no room for new types for other service instructions. 

 

Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV = format any potential new service instructions. 

 

Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader t= o judge which approach is more complex. 

 

Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by= clearly defining SRv6 SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker wi= th IETF WGs ?

 

Thx,
R.

 

 

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:

Robert,

You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote,
not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex
than SRV6+.

The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains
TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH<= br> and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as
they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of
SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all
except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is L= inux,
which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't
interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked
at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that
SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem
to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol.

Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is
more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6,
particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex.

Tom


On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
> > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion
>
> Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an = optional optimization.
>
> > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same = packet.
>
> Really ?
>
> If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA = how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs an= d two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ?
>
> But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...
>
> All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few a= lready proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support= the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping= ) will require real development resources.
>
> OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not= addressed and does require even more extensions.
>
> Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs = in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do = not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by = third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requires new signalling to distribute= mapping is non starter.
>
> At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mis= takes of the past (hint: LDP).
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
>> <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passi= onately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tol= kien, =93All who wander are not lost.=94
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem= of header length is addressed
>> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
>> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake t= o discontinue work on SRv6+.
>> >
>> + 1
>>
>> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much = simpler
>> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms a= nd
>> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH.= It
>> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need t= o
>> have multiple routing headers in the same packet.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >                 =                     &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp;                     =   Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Juniper Business Use Only
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> > ipv6@ietf.= org
>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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[72.83.194.140]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c29sm7101918qtc.89.2019.09.08.00.19.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Sep 2019 00:19:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-97496D99-ABF5-43FD-899B-ECB674D98F9D Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16F250) In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 03:19:30 -0400 Cc: Srihari Sangli , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Rob Shakir , Ron Bonica , Tarek Saad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> To: Robert Raszuk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 07:19:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail-97496D99-ABF5-43FD-899B-ECB674D98F9D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls networks I think our t= raditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D will be around for a very= very long time as is IPv4 if not longer. Most all service provider cores run greater then or equal to MTU 9000 mpls c= ores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked on plus edge overhead f= rom possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general making the core the maxim= um Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is generally done out= in the field. So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is really a non issue f= or=20 most operators. =46rom reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two fo= ld one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end u= p requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 sour= ce node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence o= n intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding T= i-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA= and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an a= dditional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA= . Can someone clarify that use case for me. Also the EH insertion on inter= mediate node what is the use case or reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99= s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together. Please clarify. I do agree with some of the other operators on the marketing hype and push f= or SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service provider as goes the mantra ..=E2= =80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix it..leave it alon= e=E2=80=9D and I think you can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had a S= OLID run for service providers since the 90=E2=80=99s ever since ATM and fra= me relay were put to rest so I don=E2=80=99t think that it=E2=80=99s going a= way any time soon. I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state of affairs for vendors t= o push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and support of MPLS as that wou= ld really pigeon hole all operators into one technology which does not fit t= he bill for every use case out there. The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and forcing operators to go w= ith SRv6 is a wrong move for vendors and would really limit operators with f= lexibility to chose based on their use case to stay with traditional mpls or= go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use case w= arrants. I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and the industry as y= et another tool in our operator =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80=9D to use as w= e see fit or not use but not be forced into it. There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from existing LDP a= nd the downside of having state maintained in the core is not a downside as t= he P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is no savings in pu= lling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D and ditching LD= P. =20 I think the major use case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE featu= re for L3 VPNs steering without adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback eg= ress PE FEC next hop to traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic. That is a unique u= se case and not every major service provider has that requirement so if you d= on=E2=80=99t their really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and you ca= n stay put with the tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and= is not going away any time soon. SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case that could serve for MP= LS core replacement or on the public internet or for enterprise network traf= fic engineering of flows between data centers or access to data center and a= n alternative to SD WAN application based routing solutions. But here as we= ll the use case benefit has to exist. Nobody wants to be forced into it if i= t=E2=80=99s unnecessary added complexity. My 2 1/2 cents=20 Regards, Gyan Mishra Verizon Communications=20 Cell- 301 502-1347 Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > I don't think so.=20 >=20 > In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure real= customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU issues. So ad= ding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient.=20 >=20 > Wrong tree :)=20 >=20 > Cheers, > R. >=20 >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli wrote= : >> =20 >>=20 >> On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said > >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real problem ? >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its inefficient en= coding. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> srihari=E2=80=A6 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-97496D99-ABF5-43FD-899B-ECB674D98F9D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with ma= ssive mpls networks I think our traditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2= =80=9D will be around for a very very long time as is IPv4 if not longer.

Most all service provider cores run greater then or eq= ual to MTU 9000 mpls cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked o= n plus edge overhead from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general maki= ng  the core the maximum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is= what is generally done out in the field.

So for SR= v6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is really a non issue for =
most operators.

=46rom reading through a= ll the discussion threads the SR insertion is two fold one being for FRR cap= abilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end up requiring double EH in= sertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 source node and then second s= cenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermediate nodes. &nb= sp;I have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but si= nce that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not the trad= itional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim= so not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA.  Can someon= e clarify that use case for me.  Also the EH insertion on intermediate n= ode what is the use case or reason for that.  My guess is it=E2=80=99s f= or special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together.  Please clarify= .

I do agree with some of the other operators on th= e marketing hype and push for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service prov= ider as goes the mantra ..=E2=80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not broken..don=E2=80=99t= try to fix it..leave it alone=E2=80=9D and I think you can definitely say t= hat for MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for service providers since the 90=E2= =80=99s ever since ATM and frame relay were put to rest so I don=E2=80=99t t= hink that it=E2=80=99s going away any time soon.

I t= hink it would be a serious mistake and sad state of affairs for vendors to p= ush SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and support of MPLS as that would r= eally pigeon hole all operators into one technology which does not fit the b= ill for every use case out there.

The mention of SR= -MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and forcing operators to go with SRv6 is a wr= ong move for vendors and would really limit operators with flexibility to ch= ose based on their use case to stay with traditional mpls or go with with SR= -MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use case warrants.

I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and= the industry as yet another tool in our operator =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2= =80=9D to use as we see fit or not use but not be forced into it.
=
There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from= existing LDP and the downside of having state maintained in the core is not= a downside as the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is n= o savings in pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D a= nd ditching LDP.   

I think the major use= case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE feature for L3 VPNs steeri= ng without adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback egress PE FEC next hop t= o traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic.  That is a unique use case and not e= very major service provider has that requirement so if you don=E2=80=99t the= ir really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and you can stay put with t= he tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and is not going awa= y any time soon.

SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all enc= ompassing use case that could serve for MPLS core replacement or on the publ= ic internet or for enterprise network traffic engineering of flows between d= ata centers or access to data center and an alternative to SD WAN applicatio= n based routing solutions.  But here as well the use case benefit has t= o exist.  Nobody wants to be forced into it if it=E2=80=99s unnecessary= added complexity.

My 2 1/2 cents 
<= br>
Regards,

Gyan Mishra
Verizo= n Communications 
Cell- 301 502-1347

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

I don't think so. 
In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make= sure real customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU iss= ues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient. 

Wrong tree :) 

Cheers,
<= div>R.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net> wrote:

 

On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Rober= t Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net= said >

 

Not really. Only SR OAM pa= ckets may need it. Is that a real problem ?

 

Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before= , its inefficient encoding.

 

srihari=E2=80=A6

________= _______________________________________
spring mailing list<= /span>
spring@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
=
= --Apple-Mail-97496D99-ABF5-43FD-899B-ECB674D98F9D-- From nobody Sun Sep 8 04:55:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2507812001E; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 04:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J5pOi6_gnv_s; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 04:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78AB0120018; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 04:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [88.214.187.115]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 800251F459; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 11:54:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 7FBFB2025; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 12:55:15 +0100 (WEST) From: Michael Richardson To: spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org In-reply-to: <357ceb44-5ef4-a5e6-4cb0-087792c9daf5@si6networks.com> References: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> <66f1195d-3e71-71d8-9304-1b5e76211c5b@si6networks.com> <17262_1567694774_5D711FB6_17262_144_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9FB@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <357ceb44-5ef4-a5e6-4cb0-087792c9daf5@si6networks.com> Comments: In-reply-to Fernando Gont message dated "Sat, 07 Sep 2019 05:54:36 +0300." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 12:55:15 +0100 Message-ID: <28835.1567943715@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 11:54:58 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fernando Gont wrote: >>=20 >> Why do these kind of arguments emerge right now instead of 5 years >> ago? We left the =E2=80=9Cproblem =E2=80=9C for 5 years? And sudden= ly we notice them? >> How interesting. > One possibility: All this kind of arguments did emerge a long time ago > -- NAmely, when working on rfc2460bis, which eventually became > RFC8200. As a results of the problems associated with EH-insertion, > there was IETF consensus to explicitly ban it in RFC8200. Maybe some > 6man'ers were not subscribed to the spring wg list, were quite > surprised to see documents relying on EH-insertion (one ins spring, a= nd > another, indirectly, in lsr), and hence decided to comment. I would suggest that the result was slightly different. We decided in RFC8200 that EH-insertion by random devices for randomly defined purposes was banned. That if a device/operator needed to do that, that they ought to use IPIP insertion. We failed to actually follow through with RFC8504 to make it possible to actually use IPIP in a general case. What I think that we wound up in RFC8200, and I think that it was intentionally very subtly under-stated by the AD at the time, was that any IETF Specification could in effect make any rule it wanted, and it would be subject to IETF Last Call and IESG review. So what we banned was EH-insertion by vendors or operators without significant (standards-level) thought as to applicability. We are now here, we are supposed to be discussing if this use case, along with it's applicability, warant a reasonable exception. I have not followed the hundreds of messages in this thread, but I read a f= ew. =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl107CMACgkQlUzhVv38 QpDG6ggAh1O5Ojl/1Xd8mmz8xOgpbK73cI7IWX7N39RhiymwNI8fHiKyM3nGPbtM Pqft8bom080h4V2khZSkRMuUVY/BuRneL2G31M9zaEfx4o1HCEFXuHZBcqdXFFdI uFXflzw/uJFuYGQH+GQ+gXJ2zLq5y4EtK/kgwzOuk0+1Qx1IvHtQx9UQF0tEproG C35C5Z3mgj3bQXApgUEY98zm7yNWIFfd4x2BFU5/SykULRQI5JDw7M3ubMNB7bpg RXQmAzna8XXa/wl/lfeEZLsRo5aw50w4bEmRCbuqY4ecC313zeYcu69CypNj+S46 rhwkbgF+cxbpX+Rb8HRqVKQJZWIc4w== =xiP7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Sep 8 20:44:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EDD12008B; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:44:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DdSIzApjM8fK; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC13120047; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WangajPC (unknown [219.142.69.77]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id 96E736627B0; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:44:26 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Gyan Mishra'" , "'Robert Raszuk'" Cc: "'SPRING WG List'" , <6man@ietf.org>, "'Ron Bonica'" , "'Srihari Sangli'" , "'Rob Shakir'" , "'Zafar Ali \(zali\)'" , "'Tarek Saad'" References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:44:27 +0800 Message-ID: <01fc01d566c0$e2017d00$a6047700$@org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01FD_01D56703.F024BD00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdVmFc3GIAv/FB/nS9+WiGEHVHtr6AApsxpg Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZSlVKS0JLS0tLQ01MQ09ITVlXWShZQU pMS0tKN1dZLVlBSVdZCQ4XHghZQVk1NCk2OjckKS43PlkG X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6PE06GSo*OjkBKx0cKS0oPiIC Vj8wC0tVSlVKTk1DS0tLTUxITk1DVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxMWVdZCAFZQUhMTUpJNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a6d141f6d529373kuws96e736627b0 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgQmV5b25kIFNSdjYuKENDRFIgUHJvcG9z?= =?utf-8?b?YWwp?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 03:44:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01FD_01D56703.F024BD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Folks: =20 We should think first what we want do via these technologies. >From my perspective, the main aim of the SR(Segment Routing) is to = assure the E2E performance of key application, which is lacked via the = traditional distributed protocol (although RSVP-TE has tried to = accomplish this aim, but it is not widely deployed for the dynamic = adjustment). =20 With the help of SDN controller in the network, it is possible for the = operator to fulfill the overall adjustments for their network, for the = following scenarios: 1) E2E performance assurance for the key applications. 2) Maximize the links efficiency within the network. 3) Eliminate the temporary congestion within the network. 4) Consider not only MPLS, but also Native IP network (IPv4/IPv6 or = their coexistence) =20 SR technologies solely can=E2=80=99t fulfill the above requirements. = Considering that SR should also depend on the SDN Controller/PCE to get = the overall situation of network, calculate the optimal path end to end, = we think there are some other simple way to accomplish the above goals. We call the solution to meet the above requirements as CCDR(Centrally = Control Dynamic Routing). The key steps of this solution are the = followings: 1) Build multi-BGP sessions for the key application traffic and the = normal traffic. 2) Populate the different prefixes via the different BGP sessions. 3) Manipulate the path to the different BGP nexthop dynamically(via PCEP = protocol). =20 Based on the above procedures, we can get the following effects: 1. Adjust the path for different traffic on demand. 2. Eliminate the needs to keep the complex states as RSVP-TE 3. Does not carry the path information on every packet of the assured = application as done in SR. 4. Same solution for the IPv4, IPv6, even the coexistence of them 5. Same solution for the intra domain and inter domain traffic. 6. Do not change the forward behavior of devices. Large amounts of = deployed routers can be reused/Only the control plane needs to be = updated. 7. Can even apply to the MPLS network in future, based on the same = philosophy. =20 The detail solution can be found at the following documents: draft- = = ietf = = -teas-native- = = ip = = -scenarios = = (Scenario and Simulation Results) = draft-ietf = -teas- = pce = = -native- = ip = = (Solution document) = draft-ietf = - = pce = - = pcep = -extension-native- = ip = (PCEP extension) =20 =20 More comments and thoughts are welcome. If necessary, I can make one summary presentation on the coming IETF = meeting in SPRING wg. =20 Best Regards. =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom =20 =20 =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Gyan Mishra =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5 = 15:20 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Robert Raszuk =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Ron Bonica; Srihari = Sangli; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Tarek Saad =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. =20 As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls networks I think = our traditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D will be around = for a very very long time as is IPv4 if not longer. =20 Most all service provider cores run greater then or equal to MTU 9000 = mpls cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked on plus edge = overhead from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general making the = core the maximum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is = generally done out in the field. =20 So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is really a non = issue for=20 most operators. =20 >From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two = fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so = end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end = SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions = occurrence on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or = RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am = guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR = link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure = why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that = use case for me. Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the = use case or reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use = case of stitching SRv6 domains together. Please clarify.. =20 I do agree with some of the other operators on the marketing hype and = push for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service provider as goes the = mantra ..=E2=80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix = it..leave it alone=E2=80=9D and I think you can definitely say that for = MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for service providers since the = 90=E2=80=99s ever since ATM and frame relay were put to rest so I = don=E2=80=99t think that it=E2=80=99s going away any time soon. =20 I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state of affairs for = vendors to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and support of = MPLS as that would really pigeon hole all operators into one technology = which does not fit the bill for every use case out there. =20 The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and forcing operators to = go with SRv6 is a wrong move for vendors and would really limit = operators with flexibility to chose based on their use case to stay with = traditional mpls or go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with = their unique use case warrants. =20 I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and the industry = as yet another tool in our operator =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80=9D to = use as we see fit or not use but not be forced into it. =20 There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from existing = LDP and the downside of having state maintained in the core is not a = downside as the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is = no savings in pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS = =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D and ditching LDP. =20 =20 I think the major use case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE = feature for L3 VPNs steering without adding complexity of adding ibgp = loopback egress PE FEC next hop to traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic. = That is a unique use case and not every major service provider has that = requirement so if you don=E2=80=99t their really is no need to jump on = the SR band wagon and you can stay put with the tried and true mpls that = has been around for decades and is not going away any time soon. =20 SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case that could serve = for MPLS core replacement or on the public internet or for enterprise = network traffic engineering of flows between data centers or access to = data center and an alternative to SD WAN application based routing = solutions. But here as well the use case benefit has to exist. Nobody = wants to be forced into it if it=E2=80=99s unnecessary added complexity. =20 My 2 1/2 cents=20 =20 Regards, =20 Gyan Mishra Verizon Communications=20 Cell- 301 502-1347 =20 Sent from my iPhone On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: I don't think so.=20 =20 In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure = real customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU = issues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient.=20 =20 Wrong tree :)=20 =20 Cheers, R. =20 On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli = wrote: =20 On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said > =20 Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real problem ?=20 =20 Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its inefficient = encoding. =20 srihari=E2=80=A6 _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring ------=_NextPart_000_01FD_01D56703.F024BD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Folks:

 

We should think first what we want do via these = technologies.

From my perspective, the main aim of the SR(Segment Routing) is to = assure the E2E performance of key application, which is lacked via the = traditional distributed protocol (although RSVP-TE has tried to = accomplish this aim, but it is not widely deployed for the dynamic = adjustment).

 

With the help of SDN controller in the network, it is possible for = the operator to fulfill the overall adjustments for their network, for = the following scenarios:

1) E2E performance assurance for the key = applications.

2) Maximize the links efficiency within the = network.

3) Eliminate the temporary congestion within the = network.

4) Consider not only MPLS, but also Native IP network (IPv4/IPv6 or = their coexistence)

 

SR technologies solely can=E2=80=99t fulfill the above requirements. = Considering that SR should also depend on the SDN Controller/PCE to get = the overall situation of network, calculate the optimal path end to end, = we think there are some other simple way to accomplish the above = goals.

We call the solution to meet the above requirements as = CCDR(Centrally Control Dynamic Routing). The key steps of this = solution are the followings:

1) Build multi-BGP sessions for the key application traffic and the = normal traffic.

2) Populate the different prefixes via the different BGP = sessions.

3) Manipulate the path to the different BGP nexthop dynamically(via = PCEP protocol).

 

Based on the above procedures, we can get the following = effects:

1. Adjust the path for different traffic on = demand.

2. Eliminate the needs to keep the complex states as = RSVP-TE

3. Does not carry the path information on every packet of the assured = application as done in SR.

4. Same solution for the IPv4, IPv6, even the coexistence of = them

5. Same solution for the intra domain and inter domain = traffic.

6. Do not change the forward behavior of devices. Large amounts of = deployed routers can be reused/Only the control plane needs to be = updated.

7. Can even apply to the MPLS network in future, based on the same = philosophy.

 

The detail solution can be found at the following = documents:

draft-ietf-teas-native-ip-scenarios (Scenario and Simulation Results)
= draft-= ietf= -teas-= pce= -native-= ip (Solution document)
draft-ietf-pce-pcep-extension-native-ip (PCEP extension)

 

 

More comments and thoughts are welcome.

If necessary, I can make one summary presentation on the coming IETF = meeting in SPRING wg.

 

Best Regards.

 

Aijun Wang

China Telecom

 

 

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Gyan Mishra
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5 15:20
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Robert = Raszuk
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: SPRING WG List; = 6man@ietf.org; Ron Bonica; Srihari Sangli; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); = Tarek Saad
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Beyond = SRv6.

 

As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls = networks I think our traditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D = will be around for a very very long time as is IPv4 if not = longer.

 

Most all service provider cores run = greater then or equal to MTU 9000 mpls cores to account for mpls = overhead shims being tacked on plus edge overhead from possible GRE = tunneling or IPSEC so in general making  the core the maximum Jumbo = MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is generally done out in = the field.

 

So for SRv6 support of multiple or = many EH insertions is really a non issue = for 

most operators.

 

From reading through all the = discussion threads the SR insertion is two fold one being for FRR = capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end up requiring = double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 source node = and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence on = intermediate nodes.  I have not read through the drafts or RFC = regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am = guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR = link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure = why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA.  Can someone clarify = that use case for me.  Also the EH insertion on intermediate node = what is the use case or reason for that.  My guess is it=E2=80=99s = for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together.  Please = clarify..

 

I do agree with some of the other = operators on the marketing hype and push for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for = every service provider as goes the mantra ..=E2=80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not = broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix it..leave it alone=E2=80=9D and I think = you can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for = service providers since the 90=E2=80=99s ever since ATM and frame relay = were put to rest so I don=E2=80=99t think that it=E2=80=99s going away = any time soon.

 

I think it would be a serious = mistake and sad state of affairs for vendors to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 = and stop development and support of MPLS as that would really pigeon = hole all operators into one technology which does not fit the bill for = every use case out there.

 

The mention of SR-MPLS pulling = support for IPv6 and forcing operators to go with SRv6 is a wrong move = for vendors and would really limit operators with flexibility to chose = based on their use case to stay with traditional mpls or go with with = SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use case = warrants.

 

I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be = marketed by vendors and the industry as yet another tool in our operator = =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80=9D to use as we see fit or not use but not = be forced into it.

 

There are particular use cases for = SR-MPLS for migration from existing LDP and the downside of having state = maintained in the core is not a downside as the P and PE nodes have to = be provisioned anyway so their is no savings in pulling mpls LDP/mLDP = with SR-MPLS =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D and ditching LDP. =   

 

I think the major use case for = SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE feature for L3 VPNs steering = without adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback egress PE FEC next hop = to traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic.  That is a unique use case and = not every major service provider has that requirement so if you = don=E2=80=99t their really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and = you can stay put with the tried and true mpls that has been around for = decades and is not going away any time = soon.

 

SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all = encompassing use case that could serve for MPLS core replacement or on = the public internet or for enterprise network traffic engineering of = flows between data centers or access to data center and an alternative = to SD WAN application based routing solutions.  But here as well = the use case benefit has to exist.  Nobody wants to be forced into = it if it=E2=80=99s unnecessary added = complexity.

 

My 2 1/2 = cents 

 

Regards,

 

Gyan = Mishra

Verizon = Communications 

Cell- 301 = 502-1347

 

Sent from my = iPhone


On Sep 6, 2019, at = 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> = wrote:

I don't think = so. 

 

In OAM packets are on purpose made = huge - even up to MTU to make sure real customer packets can go through = or to detect and diagnose MTU issues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one = can call inefficient. 

 

Wrong tree = :) 

 

Cheers,

R.

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM = Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net> = wrote:

 

On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said = >

 

Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. = Is that a real problem ?

 

Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its = inefficient encoding.

 

srihari=E2=80=A6

_______________________________________________
spring = mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/spring

------=_NextPart_000_01FD_01D56703.F024BD00-- From nobody Sun Sep 8 20:52:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D0A120052 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:52:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=g-softbank-co-jp.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GFytEV8n4Eip for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88421120047 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id v7so9412759oib.4 for ; Sun, 08 Sep 2019 20:52:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=g-softbank-co-jp.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZoYM3ASdqd5XE58RoGlBe+H+TTZ1LQeOikWyKtZKgBg=; b=Q7XCaG5c+GfJCH1KYWCgOow7pRXEzvlJDpwg+7N4AwAFlprT8oERD7cz6oWHn230pS H9rRvcqQvr982AsylSNSaKFOBT/Eh4hifnhxeEJr2arprK+wc9L7vTKInwlAvD+ZxyCe gWmdiAZr5sa6pEtpqoDYm1hrvJ55KbOV27mDdy1aC6bZCB01IxNFgBGVWVsTpaLQyn2T Lu7rVFyrmS04C+IhThZmG8jZTUogWcY4HRposDgcE72unP+3i7TaM3cEiwv5xvX2OEVG HB8GBv0zXlnXmqDtpTXx9lKz7655LRqGylOjDsGCR5b1z+KPlMqKmIzPc70h+TZU4SsE l0gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZoYM3ASdqd5XE58RoGlBe+H+TTZ1LQeOikWyKtZKgBg=; b=TY7+kwEcC+6nUkkPCh1fxCXtYto0ugqT6cwsqpKUoT+TkphcNv7FoFUOdq10mno395 Mb1G8KiZZWJOratbXTbJMaTm0ivBtBHGQJh9NDYc2W4HXTPdpKy6J7yxIYEYZL345Ofb 5YLpZqpT/YHEurJmsN3aWEUg4ufEsxbVXEc31EZ84ezdY09ryScTza7K2Su2BTNzixPW +6N30caH6xBNY2fyaSJQ0capoQTrkZHILTghj0eRPwDo0pjeTaFyv0It3VgCtG5ejVgR C9AaDMIAfym9Q0wZR+hRjnfMdLacezaUP0RVK7oOX8AvVWSXL+joP39WmZZgYRgzx1Ag 8OrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWhIUNffM6mKD3QBAbIDwK6Yr+inUXTzUADjdHMRbKOM94gpaJH bue8Qgaa/LcLYq6IomxEEHCzAeEUZKB7Ams0a9g+6cP0 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwpDvIDe4qArbjY83gfOchvpk9XGaR2qGQEXEkLEffVwjzfoIdwGH3WAzyR41rMPqSGg4iYIv+jM/vmnJU7+rM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ec43:: with SMTP id k64mr15982334oih.87.1568001122419; Sun, 08 Sep 2019 20:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 23:52:01 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: =?UTF-8?B?5p2+5baL6IGh?= In-Reply-To: <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2019 23:52:01 -0400 Message-ID: To: SPRING WG List Cc: Robert Raszuk , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ron Bonica , Srihari Sangli , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Gyan Mishra , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e8e0f7059216b5b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 03:52:10 -0000 --000000000000e8e0f7059216b5b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As an operator of running a nation wide network in non-trivial size with SRv6, I agree on that multiple or many SRv6 SIDs support in terms of MTU size limit is not an issue. And solutions already exist that enable us to deploy TE with minimum number of SID (e.g, flex-algo) not only for SRv6, but also for SR-MPLS. Additional solution to reduce size of SIDs seems beneficial. However, requiring another type of EH just for reduce the size of SIDs sounds no make sense to me. Therefore I see no benefits on CRH for our deployments. SRH has been developed and specified through legitimate IETF process with non-trivial time and efforts. Adding extra header for the same purpose would waste all our precious efforts so far and require much unnecessary time and efforts down the load which is no make sense for all of us. We have to stick SRH to be used and be compatible with the existing SID definition in SRH if we need solution to reduce SIDs. Cheers, --satoru 2019/09/08 16:19=E3=80=81Gyan Mishra =E3=81=AE=E3=83= =A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls networks I think our traditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D will be around for a ve= ry very long time as is IPv4 if not longer. Most all service provider cores run greater then or equal to MTU 9000 mpls cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked on plus edge overhead from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general making the core the maximum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is generally done out in the field. So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is really a non issue for most operators. >From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that use case for me. Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitchin= g SRv6 domains together. Please clarify.. I do agree with some of the other operators on the marketing hype and push for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service provider as goes the mantra ..=E2=80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix it..leave i= t alone=E2=80=9D and I think you can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for service providers since the 90=E2=80=99s ever since ATM and frame relay were put to= rest so I don=E2=80=99t think that it=E2=80=99s going away any time soon. I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state of affairs for vendors to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and support of MPLS as that would really pigeon hole all operators into one technology which does not fit the bill for every use case out there. The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and forcing operators to go with SRv6 is a wrong move for vendors and would really limit operators with flexibility to chose based on their use case to stay with traditional mpls or go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use case warrants. I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and the industry as yet another tool in our operator =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80=9D to use as= we see fit or not use but not be forced into it. There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from existing LDP and the downside of having state maintained in the core is not a downside as the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is no savings in pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D and ditch= ing LDP. I think the major use case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE feature for L3 VPNs steering without adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback egress PE FEC next hop to traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic. That is a unique use case and not every major service provider has that requirement so if you don=E2=80=99t their really is no need to jump on the = SR band wagon and you can stay put with the tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and is not going away any time soon. SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case that could serve for MPLS core replacement or on the public internet or for enterprise network traffic engineering of flows between data centers or access to data center and an alternative to SD WAN application based routing solutions. But here as well the use case benefit has to exist. Nobody wants to be forced into it if it=E2=80=99s unnecessary added complexity. My 2 1/2 cents Regards, Gyan Mishra Verizon Communications Cell- 301 502-1347 Sent from my iPhone On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: I don't think so. In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure real customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU issues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient. Wrong tree :) Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli wrote: > > > On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said > > > > > Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real problem ? > > > > Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its inefficient > encoding. > > > > srihari=E2=80=A6 > > _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --000000000000e8e0f7059216b5b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As an operator of running a nation wide= network in non-trivial size with SRv6, I agree on that multiple or many SR= v6 SIDs support in terms of MTU size limit is not an issue.=C2=A0

An= d solutions already exist that enable us to deploy TE with minimum number o= f SID (e.g, flex-algo) not only for SRv6, but also for SR-MPLS. Additional = solution to reduce size of SIDs seems beneficial. However, requiring anothe= r type of EH just for reduce the size of SIDs sounds no make sense to me.

Therefore I see no benefits on CRH for our deploymen= ts. SRH has been developed and specified through legitimate IETF process wi= th non-trivial time and efforts. Adding extra header for the same purpose w= ould waste all our precious efforts so far and require much unnecessary tim= e and efforts down the load which is no make sense for all of us.

We= have to stick SRH to be used and be compatible with the existing SID defin= ition in SRH if we need solution to reduce SIDs.

Cheers,
--satoru

2019/= 09/08 16:19=E3=80=81Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:
As an operator of a Tier 1 = provider with massive mpls networks I think our traditional bread and butte= r =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D will be around for a very very long time as is IPv= 4 if not longer.

Most all service provider cores ru= n greater then or equal to MTU 9000 mpls cores to account for mpls overhead= shims being tacked on plus edge overhead from possible GRE tunneling or IP= SEC so in general making =C2=A0the core the maximum Jumbo MTU supported by = most vendors at 9216 is what is generally done out in the field.
=
So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is rea= lly a non issue for=C2=A0
most operators.

From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two f= old one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end= up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 s= ource node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurren= ce on intermediate nodes.=C2=A0 I have not read through the drafts or RFC r= egarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an= opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection t= hat adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to o= ccur for Ti-LFA.=C2=A0 Can someone clarify that use case for me.=C2=A0 Also= the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or reason for t= hat.=C2=A0 My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitching SRv6 = domains together.=C2=A0 Please clarify..

I do agre= e with some of the other operators on the marketing hype and push for SR-MP= LS and SRv6 is not for every service provider as goes the mantra ..=E2=80= =9Dif it=E2=80=99s not broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix it..leave it alone= =E2=80=9D and I think you can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had a = SOLID run for service providers since the 90=E2=80=99s ever since ATM and f= rame relay were put to rest so I don=E2=80=99t think that it=E2=80=99s goin= g away any time soon.

I think it would be a seriou= s mistake and sad state of affairs for vendors to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and= stop development and support of MPLS as that would really pigeon hole all = operators into one technology which does not fit the bill for every use cas= e out there.

The mention of SR-MPLS pulling suppor= t for IPv6 and forcing operators to go with SRv6 is a wrong move for vendor= s and would really limit operators with flexibility to chose based on their= use case to stay with traditional mpls or go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 onl= y if necessary with their unique use case warrants.

I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and the industry a= s yet another tool in our operator =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80=9D to use = as we see fit or not use but not be forced into it.

There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from existing LD= P and the downside of having state maintained in the core is not a downside= as the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is no savings= in pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D and ditc= hing LDP. =C2=A0=C2=A0

I think the major use case = for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE feature for L3 VPNs steering wi= thout adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback egress PE FEC next hop to t= raffic engineer L3 VPN traffic.=C2=A0 That is a unique use case and not eve= ry major service provider has that requirement so if you don=E2=80=99t thei= r really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and you can stay put with = the tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and is not going a= way any time soon.

SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all = encompassing use case that could serve for MPLS core replacement or on the = public internet or for enterprise network traffic engineering of flows betw= een data centers or access to data center and an alternative to SD WAN appl= ication based routing solutions.=C2=A0 But here as well the use case benefi= t has to exist.=C2=A0 Nobody wants to be forced into it if it=E2=80=99s unn= ecessary added complexity.

My 2 1/2 cents=C2=A0

Regards,

Gyan Mishra
<= div>Verizon Communications=C2=A0
Cell- 301 502-1347

Sent from my iPhone
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

I don't th= ink so.=C2=A0

In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - = even up to MTU to make sure real customer packets can go through or to dete= ct and diagnose MTU issues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one can call ine= fficient.=C2=A0

Wrong tree :)=C2=A0

=
Cheers,
R.

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari= Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net&= gt; wrote:
<= /div>
_______________________________________________
s= pring mailing list
sprin= g@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--000000000000e8e0f7059216b5b2-- From nobody Sun Sep 8 23:56:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3612D120D86; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:32:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CrW09kkHWWO4; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26FF0120D56; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 08:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 8C23A17892079A34D65C; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:32:15 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml720-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.71) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:32:15 +0100 Received: from lhreml720-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.71) by lhreml720-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:32:14 +0100 Received: from DGGEML421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.38) by lhreml720-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.71) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 16:32:14 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.23]) by dggeml421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 23:32:11 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: bruno.decraene , Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , Ole Troan , Fernando Gont CC: spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , rtg-ads , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) Thread-Index: AQHVZMhAd4tFtob25kWhKu5fOoZ7zA== Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 15:32:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> <66f1195d-3e71-71d8-9304-1b5e76211c5b@si6networks.com>, <17262_1567694774_5D711FB6_17262_144_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9FB@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <17262_1567694774_5D711FB6_17262_144_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9FB@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B769Fdggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 23:56:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [spring] IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 15:32:27 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B769Fdggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bruno, Agree. I am very curious that why so many emails everyday? And I saw the PO= Vs again and again in different format. I think you have explained very cle= ar. It looks to me like SRv6 NP draft is going to be published as a RFC. But ac= tually it is a WG item only=1B$B!$=1B(Band a normative reference to eh inse= rtion draft is in there. Everything is going in the right process. But I have a question: Why do these kind of arguments emerge right now instead of 5 years ago? We = left the =1B$B!H=1B(Bproblem =1B$B!H=1B(B for 5 years? And suddenly we noti= ce them? How interesting. ________________________________ Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: bruno.decraene> To: Fernando Gont>;Ron = Bonica>;li zhenqiang>;Ole Troan>;Fernando Gont> Cc: spring>;6man<6man@ietf.org>;Suresh Krishnan>;draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion>;rtg-ads>;draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming> Subject: RE: IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Ques= tion about SRv6 Insert function)) Time: 2019-09-05 22:47:44 Fernando, > Ron, > > On 5/9/19 06:01, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Fernando, Zhenqiang, > > > > You both have valid points. Maybe I am becoming too tolerant of > > deviations from the specification. > > This is not a deviation in the spec. It's an outright violation of the sp= ec. > > This topic has a rich history in 6man, which I will summarize as follows: > > 1) Folks proposed the segment routing header I-D with the argument that > it wasn't clear whether EH-insertion was allowed in RFC2460 or not -- > when it was clear to virtually everyone else that it was forbidden > > 2) The segment-routing header I-D was adopted on the condition that all > text related to EH insertion should be removed. > > 3) Since we were in the process of doing rfc2460bis, we had the > discussion to make the text crystal-clear that EH-insertion was > forbidden. -- in fact, it already was. But based on 1) we discussed to > make it 200% clear. > > 4) Some folks argued not to add text on the topic, leaving, from their > pov, the spec ambiguous. This "version" of rfc2460bis was shipped from > the wg. > > 5) During IETF LC of rfc2460bis, the issue was raised again, and there > was finally consensus to add very explicit text noting that EH insertion > is forbidden. And this became RFC8200. > > > My question to the spring wg chairs and routing area ADs therefore is: > how come the wg adopted a document (e.g.: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01= ) > when it contains outright violations of specs (RFC8200) that are not in > the charter of spring wg to update? (as far as I understand). 1) draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference to = [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion]. As such, from a process standpoint, it's clear that it would not going to b= e published before [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] be published= as RFC. And from its name, the latter is intended to be discussed and with= in control of the 6MAN WG. 2) When writing a specification (i.e. changing the standard), there is the = question of whether we directly define the new behavior, or whether we need= to motivate the change from a usage perspective. Aka do we need use cases = documents or is this a waste of IETF time? When the point is difficult or s= ubject to debate, the proposed change is easily dismissed based on the abse= nce of a written need for that change. Hence it looks to me reasonable that the SPRING WG explicitly states that S= RH insertion would be useful, rather than some individual brings this to th= e 6MAN WG, individually claiming that it's useful for SR. If you are fine w= ith this, AFAIK, this is done with a WG adoption. Again, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference= that would automatically block RFC publication. I'm not sure what addition= al safety you would want? The SPRING WG is not to be point of asking publication of draft-ietf-spring= -srv6-network-programming. It's in a WG for discussion. If your point is th= at you don't want the spring WG to discuss the usage of EH insertion, then = you are welcome to contribute to the SPRING WG. And thank you for doing tha= t. --Bruno > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B769Fdggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bruno,

Agree. I am very curious that why so many emails everyday? And I saw the PO= Vs again and again in different format. I think you have explained very cle= ar.

It looks to me like SRv6 NP draft is going to be published as a RFC. But ac= tually it is a WG item only=1B$B!$=1B(Band a normative reference to eh inse= rtion draft is in there. Everything is going in the right process.

But I have a question:

Why do these kind of arguments emerge right now instead of 5 years ago? We = left the =1B$B!H=1B(Bproblem =1B$B!H=1B(B for 5 years? And suddenly we noti= ce them? How interesting.


Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com



From: bruno.decraene<bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: Fernando Gont<f= gont@si6networks.com>;Ron Bonica<rbonica@juniper.net>;li zhenqiang<li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com>;Ole Troan<otroan@employees.org&= gt;;Fernando Gont<fernando@gont.= com.ar>
Cc: spring<spring@ietf.or= g>;6man<6man@ietf.org>;Su= resh Krishnan<suresh.krishn= an@gmail.com>;draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion<draft-voye= r-6man-extension-header-insertion@ietf.org>;rtg-ads<rtg-ads@tools.ietf.org>;draft-ietf-spri= ng-srv6-network-programming<draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.= org>
Subject: RE: IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the La= w (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function))
Time: 2019-09-05 22:47:44

Fernando,

> Ron,
>
> On 5/9/19 06:01, Ron Bonica wrote:
> > Fernando, Zhenqiang,
> >
> > You both have valid points. Maybe I am becoming too tolerant of > > deviations from the specification.
>
> This is not a deviation in the spec. It's an outright violation of the= spec.
>
> This topic has a rich history in 6man, which I will summarize as follo= ws:
>
> 1) Folks proposed the segment routing header I-D with the argument tha= t
> it wasn't clear whether EH-insertion was allowed in RFC2460 or not --<= br> > when it was clear to virtually everyone else that it was forbidden
>
> 2) The segment-routing header I-D was adopted on the condition that al= l
> text related to EH insertion should be removed.
>
> 3) Since we were in the process of doing rfc2460bis, we had the
> discussion to make the text crystal-clear that EH-insertion was
> forbidden. -- in fact, it already was. But based on 1) we discussed to=
> make it 200% clear.
>
> 4) Some folks argued not to add text on the topic, leaving, from their=
> pov, the spec ambiguous. This "version" of rfc2460bis was sh= ipped from
> the wg.
>
> 5) During IETF LC of rfc2460bis, the issue was raised again, and there=
> was finally consensus to add very explicit text noting that EH inserti= on
> is forbidden. And this became RFC8200.
>
>
> My question to the spring wg chairs and routing area ADs therefore is:=
> how come the wg adopted a document (e.g.:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01)
> when it contains outright violations of specs (RFC8200) that are not i= n
> the charter of spring wg to update? (as far as I understand).

1) draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference to = [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion].
As such, from a process standpoint, it's clear that it would not going to b= e published before [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] be published= as RFC. And from its name, the latter is intended to be discussed and with= in control of the 6MAN WG.

2) When writing a specification (i.e. changing the standard), there is the = question of whether we directly define the new behavior, or whether we need= to motivate the change from a usage perspective. Aka do we need use cases = documents or is this a waste of IETF time? When the point is difficult or subject to debate, the proposed = change is easily dismissed based on the absence of a written need for that = change.
Hence it looks to me reasonable that the SPRING WG explicitly states that S= RH insertion would be useful, rather than some individual brings this to th= e 6MAN WG, individually claiming that it's useful for SR. If you are fine w= ith this, AFAIK, this is done with a WG adoption.
Again, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative reference= that would automatically block RFC publication. I'm not sure what addition= al safety you would want?
The SPRING WG is not to be point of asking publication of draft-ietf-spring= -srv6-network-programming. It's in a WG for discussion. If your point is th= at you don't want the spring WG to discuss the usage of EH insertion, then = you are welcome to contribute to the SPRING WG. And thank you for doing that.

--Bruno

> Thanks,
> --
> Fernando Gont
> SI6 Networks
> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com
> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492

___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026B769Fdggeml529mbxchi_-- From nobody Sun Sep 8 23:56:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8B6120E25; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xk-AJLJ6bUq2; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F206120815; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4B8ED82DAD; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:54:40 +0200 (CEST) To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" Cc: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , Fernando Gont , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , li zhenqiang , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <01D79129-8CAC-49C3-A7EC-C37F935B11B1@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <1f697fd6-dc77-b8dd-15fb-be23b3c296a4@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:18:29 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 23:56:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 02:54:48 -0000 On 6/9/19 03:56, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > Hi Fernando.  > > The takeaway I attempted to highlight is that there is in fact agreement > between 6man and spring on how to proceed, and we are proceeding as > agreed to work on the relevant documents. I don't really know what the agreement is, other than the implicit agreement that if you're considering violating an IPv6 standard, you should come to 6man and do a Std Track document that updates the relevant standard... Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Sep 8 23:56:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC27120E1B; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VBuTgrEE9k4n; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47B4B120B74; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 20:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] (ppp-94-69-228-20.home.otenet.gr [94.69.228.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7BDAA86096; Sat, 7 Sep 2019 04:54:49 +0200 (CEST) To: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , "bruno.decraene" , Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , Ole Troan , Fernando Gont Cc: spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , rtg-ads , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> <66f1195d-3e71-71d8-9304-1b5e76211c5b@si6networks.com> <17262_1567694774_5D711FB6_17262_144_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9FB@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <357ceb44-5ef4-a5e6-4cb0-087792c9daf5@si6networks.com> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 05:54:36 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 23:56:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [spring] IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 03:04:50 -0000 On 6/9/19 18:32, Chengli (Cheng Li) wrote: > > But I have a question: > > Why do these kind of arguments emerge right now instead of 5 years ago? > We left the $B!H(Bproblem $B!H(B for 5 years? And suddenly we notice them? How > interesting. One possibility: All this kind of arguments did emerge a long time ago -- NAmely, when working on rfc2460bis, which eventually became RFC8200. As a results of the problems associated with EH-insertion, there was IETF consensus to explicitly ban it in RFC8200. Maybe some 6man'ers were not subscribed to the spring wg list, were quite surprised to see documents relying on EH-insertion (one ins spring, and another, indirectly, in lsr), and hence decided to comment. Just a guess, though. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Sep 8 23:56:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85B2E120E57; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:57:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wsXpSNJVI3in; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x241.google.com (mail-oi1-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD363120E5D; Fri, 6 Sep 2019 22:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x241.google.com with SMTP id v7so6835431oib.4; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:57:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+9DxPr7G13UTcUaX9+thZ9ZTJtr2dcJessvUDzUj0gI=; b=Fx4x3u2GsAFJT9nvK9PBPJEuLia8NoFnrMNOO1pG91sIJdZ5UY1Ehfrq3/W6P/AoD3 Q5s1WSPqkVgZR/hk+ub+e1w9hnxwBYy54wPuibZ+VCT10UtKX2FAdYWIe3hBfNS1f85+ JhSReM2pLUVJ6IQ/Z4euySSd7t0wmaURJszLMFMWwSFgkZCyM+VxG3n9SHT4L0zq11aF 0YWddeDhYP6IZ4xv3rv4ByN6IoVJRddOqXkCJ83j98PtNgZrWAzAGe25CHt9FksRrcEQ 53dhUHLw0xsG/+i3569JaCmMSmxSkHoKUW1Fo/9yoYOrXHweFq0aeFrUFK5YXO7hWGpy 9ilA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+9DxPr7G13UTcUaX9+thZ9ZTJtr2dcJessvUDzUj0gI=; b=SY8AW5P1aOgGwmvo+30sj64JjcFVbO8CJnWxN8jdoyosLWqbaLX925L93GKvgygvR6 gvHil4qM9DQPuKrgh8LH6+Xznji3Pps1/VSQsg8oKIFSvg4NXu1Lm2g3rTnGkStYl6PF 1m8ifL0ERjw93/+nheBWAZuQOLwBYOOGw46apSnhI+7TYfqMcMQOWABVkrTi1Cl7IKMP vIn7PgNy56Akg9co7lYMQQ/dfNSuXjPEMUPSrct7JlivFh2T5nlWmdt4yHOZ0V7F88KP /kBd0+vLWD6tnhjMHQkcezXZZZTDlJvWC4jVr9iRSQd4/JOmeOc+XFQU/C6pr+m90cHP h2Rg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVVzIwleFQ69GP9gH3l+fSNlaB7uyfFaV8HySxLcslymdrXUbLl 5aQasidxLVBcTANdiEazdrGJYsPjd260nd9YzAQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxl4u0usf8g8v6BIR+ZHSoLXeCbw8fIOnUYYH9IAdtSsMKTMOwdL5ePYDMCm54fFxmMbjF8Y7XCNFfWYLY33lE= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5588:: with SMTP id j130mr10168651oib.38.1567835870091; Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:57:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> <66f1195d-3e71-71d8-9304-1b5e76211c5b@si6networks.com> <17262_1567694774_5D711FB6_17262_144_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9FB@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <357ceb44-5ef4-a5e6-4cb0-087792c9daf5@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <357ceb44-5ef4-a5e6-4cb0-087792c9daf5@si6networks.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 15:57:23 +1000 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , "bruno.decraene" , Ron Bonica , li zhenqiang , Ole Troan , Fernando Gont , spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , rtg-ads , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 08 Sep 2019 23:56:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [spring] IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 05:57:53 -0000 On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 13:05, Fernando Gont wrote: > > On 6/9/19 18:32, Chengli (Cheng Li) wrote: > > > > But I have a question: > > > > Why do these kind of arguments emerge right now instead of 5 years ago? > > We left the =E2=80=9Cproblem =E2=80=9C for 5 years? And suddenly we not= ice them? How > > interesting. > > One possibility: > All this kind of arguments did emerge a long time ago -- NAmely, when > working on rfc2460bis, which eventually became RFC8200. As a results of > the problems associated with EH-insertion, there was IETF consensus to > explicitly ban it in RFC8200. Maybe some 6man'ers were not subscribed to > the spring wg list, were quite surprised to see documents relying on > EH-insertion (one ins spring, and another, indirectly, in lsr), and > hence decided to comment. > > Just a guess, though. > It's been clear since RFC 1883, the first IPv6 specification RFC from December 1995: "With one exception, extension headers are *not examined or processed by any node along a packet's delivery path*, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header." Similar text goes back to the SIPP spec from 1994 when EHs were called "optional headers": "With one exception, optional headers are not examined or processed by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches the node (or set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the SIPP header." https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sipp-spec-00 It was more specifically explained in RFC 8200 only because some people were claiming that the meaning of "examined" or "processed" are ambiguous. > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Sep 9 02:57:27 2019 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pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x89B7kYr002861; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 13:07:46 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 54A0E2055D3; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 13:07:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D70C205581; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 13:07:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.35.150] (is154594.intra.cea.fr [10.8.35.150]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id x89B7kVx009735; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 13:07:46 +0200 To: Robert Raszuk , Mark Smith , Tom Herbert Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 13:07:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FA37A3183D336D5772491A01" Content-Language: fr Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] IPv4 EH proposal X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 11:07:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FA37A3183D336D5772491A01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Le 07/09/2019 à 13:32, Robert Raszuk a écrit : > /* Adjusting the subject to reflect the topic */ > > Ok ... I looked at the new wave of mails in wrong order :) > > I like this proposal: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-ipv4-eh-01 > > And have absolutely nothing against progressing it further - it looks > on the surface to be more efficient then sr-mpls over IP - but how > many bits are we saving needs to be calculated to state if cost of > introducing new encoding justifies the additional control plane, > protocol and platform efforts > > In fact if we would get to the consensus of using SRH with SID & BSID > to be of fixed 20 bits it can reuse a lot of mechanism build for > sr-mpls in any commercial router. > >  It is just a bit amazing that insertion of EHs into IPv4 would be > less problematic that in the case of IPv6 :) Maybe due to allowed > fragmentation. > > As to the host dropping packets due to unknown protocol - let's > observe that SR domain would clean such EH before passing packets > further. > > Many thx, > R. When I learned IPv4 existed it was already very late to suggest anything to it.  I learned that many things were designed into it at its origin, but few things got actually deployed. The example of loose source route, and strict source route, was given as an example that people tried to do but it never worked at scale.  So it got filtered and disappeared. I think now that any new such thing added beyond the simplest things in IP, like just destination and source, will be discarded later. (even for IPv6, I struggle with Traffic Class vs Flow Label: where to put an emergency flag?  were it there to be just one field instead of two, my choice would be much easier.  The end user of this emergency flag asks this for 2 years now, and I still ponder over it, telling him to not worry and just send twice the emergency message.) Alex > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:14 PM Mark Smith > wrote: > > On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 19:56, Robert Raszuk > wrote: > > > > > It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4 > > > > You don't have to write anything ... it is already written and > looks like moving fwd :) > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07 > > > > That's tunnelling MPLS over SR over IPv4. I'm talking about native SR > over IPv4 e.g. "SRv4". > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------FA37A3183D336D5772491A01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


Le 07/09/2019 à 13:32, Robert Raszuk a écrit :
/* Adjusting the subject to reflect the topic */

Ok ... I looked at the new wave of mails in wrong order :) 

I like this proposal: 


And have absolutely nothing against progressing it further - it looks on the surface to be more efficient then sr-mpls over IP - but how many bits are we saving needs to be calculated to state if cost of introducing new encoding justifies the additional control plane, protocol and platform efforts

In fact if we would get to the consensus of using SRH with SID & BSID to be of fixed 20 bits it can reuse a lot of mechanism build for sr-mpls in any commercial router.

 It is just a bit amazing that insertion of EHs into IPv4 would be less problematic that in the case of IPv6 :) Maybe due to allowed fragmentation. 

As to the host dropping packets due to unknown protocol - let's observe that SR domain would clean such EH before passing packets further. 

Many thx,
R.

When I learned IPv4 existed it was already very late to suggest anything to it.  I learned that many things were designed into it at its origin, but few things got actually deployed.

The example of loose source route, and strict source route, was given as an example that people tried to do but it never worked at scale.  So it got filtered and disappeared.

I think now that any new such thing added beyond the simplest things in IP, like just destination and source, will be discarded later.

(even for IPv6, I struggle with Traffic Class vs Flow Label: where to put an emergency flag?  were it there to be just one field instead of two, my choice would be much easier.  The end user of this emergency flag asks this for 2 years now, and I still ponder over it, telling him to not worry and just send twice the emergency message.)

Alex





On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 1:14 PM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 at 19:56, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> > It's tempting to write up SR over IPv4
>
> You don't have to write anything ... it is already written and looks like moving fwd :)
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07
>

That's tunnelling MPLS over SR over IPv4. I'm talking about native SR
over IPv4 e.g. "SRv4".

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------FA37A3183D336D5772491A01-- From nobody Mon Sep 9 05:53:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 236DD120047; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 05:53:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZRJxlexah_QJ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 05:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B79C7120154; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 05:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.70]) by opfednr26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46Rp4F0PGwz10Tn; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 14:53:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.92]) by opfednr06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46Rp4D6c2zzDqZY; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 14:53:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM34.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::7873:1668:636f:52c%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 14:53:16 +0200 From: To: "Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-spring-lsp-ping@ietf.org" CC: "spring@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LSP-Trace Thread-Index: AdVIuAQ8AdZ/IKoeQP2RJFvbMTxY5QeVSCgA Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 12:53:16 +0000 Message-ID: <27031_1568033596_5D764B3C_27031_258_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C03799@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C03799OPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LSP-Trace X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 12:53:24 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C03799OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RFC 8287 is a product of the MPLS WG so in the absence of answer on the SPR= ING mailing list, I'm redirecting the question to the MPLS WG. --Bruno From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Aissaoui, Mustap= ha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 12:29 AM To: spring@ietf.org Subject: [spring] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LSP-= Trace Dear all, I am not sure if this was discussed during the development of RFC 8287 - "L= abel Switched Path (LSP) Ping/Traceroute for Segment Routing (SR) IGP-Prefi= x and IGP-Adjacency Segment Identifiers (SIDs) with= MPLS Data Planes", but I could not find anything in the SPRING mail archiv= e. Prefix SID and adjacency SID which are originated in an OSPFv3 instance (IP= v4 or IPv6 instance) do not have a protocol ID assigned to them in the Segm= ent ID Sub-TLV, as well as in the Label Stack Sub-TLV of the Downstream Det= ailed Mapping TLV. Should we assign the next available IANA codepoint values or was there a ra= tionale for omitting them? Regards, Mustapha. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C03799OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

RFC 8287 is a product of= the MPLS WG so in the absence of answer on the SPRING mailing list, I’m redirecting the question to the MPLS WG.

 =

--Bruno

 =

= From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 12:29 AM
To: spring@ietf.org
Subject: [spring] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping a= nd LSP-Trace

 

Dear all,

I am not sure if this was discussed during the d= evelopment of RFC 8287 – “Label Switched Path (LSP) Ping/Tracer= oute for Segment Routing (SR) IGP-Prefix and IGP-Adjacency Segment Identifiers = (SIDs)            &n= bsp;            = ;with MPLS Data Planes”, but I could not find anything in the SPRING = mail archive.

 

Prefix SID and adjacency SID which are originate= d in an OSPFv3 instance (IPv4 or IPv6 instance) do not have a protocol ID assigned to them in the Segment ID Sub-TLV, as well as in th= e Label Stack Sub-TLV of the Downstream Detailed Mapping TLV.

 

Should we assign the next available IANA codepoi= nt values or was there a rationale for omitting them?

 

Regards,

Mustapha.

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C03799OPEXCAUBM43corp_-- From nobody Mon Sep 9 06:32:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6463F12023E for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 06:31:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_DNS_FOR_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0inJ6-y-j7i6 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 06:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x334.google.com (mail-wm1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B95212008F for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 06:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x334.google.com with SMTP id 7so4234433wme.1 for ; Mon, 09 Sep 2019 06:31:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=1FVEcBPkbhQlmoqAhDtV/YPsXXPM5DFRRn2V1SbQ0Do=; b=Q7j0cxMhmccNE6BqwIc9JR/rmMBS8FXwSGYfrNNErROmReQBe7oe6NIr54gyM2VMyx Ntce+Tu50o5TR5G7PmmutwmDG4yQ9+PzEjAtrSGEXqm6T5qtCSiBRtufBoDf52Y/R5av zjgdstrBI7EtIDYlmq74T07fleZAimyWnTzet3d+u6j1XVnAUci3v/fWPpokDzVgfwTN Dt9do0WNH7UH2apAAXgCCGy2OaZXdzNZCqqgBN8Mp/Z7l6nr/Sarw6p47JLJPsXNkkNd z3hAjfo9LHMaBtj3fPAiwtdSBNLWXi3sH4fvoss3wiQJxQN8YnNgp2SVUdc8JaGu//df fH7A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=1FVEcBPkbhQlmoqAhDtV/YPsXXPM5DFRRn2V1SbQ0Do=; b=ROQtUVWMXGl4ZL5V1e+1KEBh/yR/KuRjFXKiqM7hud5gmuAE6CVxTI/tIEc70l08NH WrbXnp1Y22VZqubmSs7306TQGsE2xrYEFkQTko0SOC1+4bISk7I/suykCKLfdpnTw6Cc oOXtWc0C5kenUsgFJ8Je4RCzmk8zvGdAap4d1QrXVMFxev8mOh1Qb/XE9tK2HNiRRD+d XX1/Cu3Vz87csaBF3wHevHoc76trVXPlgh+WjWmhDRi+oj+BsvmtY/jdVqJS7TE18dNO zSedn6Kl/T8k5zni2s6+E0D1vvBmrpg0N9yq+Dy1g0Vn3vE33Wj+0h7RBcoczukxuOod Qotw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWt3BjRDVe4PC+ragiMKXCW49yuY4vWyQ9+mZ06UZ94RfGsoyz8 lIBgTuJThgctbBBBLEnBUTmr4A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw3NpWI+kfICNFW7jjkyuNKaFPgQyLdouk1B37ExXaDlnzKOkg/u6K31J/Wg+m1nEHWVvdb9Q== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c745:: with SMTP id w5mr17443151wmk.86.1568035911664; Mon, 09 Sep 2019 06:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2003:e6:171e:ce00:6878:62ae:587f:8f67? (p200300E6171ECE00687862AE587F8F67.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [2003:e6:171e:ce00:6878:62ae:587f:8f67]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d28sm16128984wrb.95.2019.09.09.06.31.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 09 Sep 2019 06:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9B28E1A8-6C27-4A03-9550-E1542EC3F3E8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Dirk Steinberg In-Reply-To: <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:31:49 +0200 Cc: Robert Raszuk , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ron Bonica , Srihari Sangli , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Tarek Saad Message-Id: References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> To: Gyan Mishra X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 13:31:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9B28E1A8-6C27-4A03-9550-E1542EC3F3E8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 There seems to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA. A couple of comments: - Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which=20 only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair). - Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing=20 to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE itself is the PLR. - TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one.=20 It is a purely local computation based on IGP topology. - The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID list to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case no SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR=20 will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case.=20 For SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to=20 insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already=20 have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most=20 common Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have=20 an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH. Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform encapsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID as IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH. This will work for the vast majority of cases.=20 Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID. Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an=20 EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs. - EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains. Hope it helps. Cheers Dirk > Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra : >=20 > =46rom reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is = two fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA = tunnel so end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel = head end SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH = insertions occurrence on intermediate nodes. I have not read through = the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP = extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS = FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not = sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify = that use case for me. Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what = is the use case or reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99s for = special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together. Please clarify.. >=20 --Apple-Mail=_9B28E1A8-6C27-4A03-9550-E1542EC3F3E8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 There= seems to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA.
A couple of = comments:

- = Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which 
  only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of = local repair).

-= Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has = nothing 
  to do with TI-LFA except for = the special case where the ingress PE
  itself = is the PLR.

- = TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one. 
  It is a purely local computation based on IGP = topology.

- = The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID
  list to steer the packet around the failure. For the = LFA base case
  no SIDs are needed at all. If = SID insertion is needed, the PLR 
  will = push the required number of labels in the MPLS case. 

  For SRv6, the = equivalent operation to the label push is to 
  insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet = will already 
  have been encapsulated on = the ingress PE and in the most 
  common = Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have 
  an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a = single EH.

  Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to = perform
  encapsulation with a new IPv6 header = using the repair SID
  as IPv6 destination = address, without needing any EH.
  This will = work for the vast majority of cases. 
  = Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases
  equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus = an
  adjacency SID can be encoded in a single = SRv6 SID.

 = Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an 
  EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs.

- EH insertion for = TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains.

Hope it helps.

Cheers
Dirk

Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb = Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>:

=46rom = reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two fold = one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end = up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 = source node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions = occurrence on intermediate nodes.  I have not read through the = drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP = extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS = FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not = sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA.  Can someone = clarify that use case for me.  Also the EH insertion on = intermediate node what is the use case or reason for that.  My = guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains = together.  Please clarify..


= --Apple-Mail=_9B28E1A8-6C27-4A03-9550-E1542EC3F3E8-- From nobody Mon Sep 9 07:22:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16197120802; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fvXqkYVaMXP3; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 07:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 092CF12003E; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 07:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 49E686C64C601EA50C42; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:22:43 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:22:43 +0100 Received: from lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) by lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:22:42 +0100 Received: from DGGEML421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.199.38) by lhreml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:22:42 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.58]) by dggeml421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.199.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 22:22:30 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Xiejingrong , Ron Bonica , Robert Raszuk , Tom Herbert CC: spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: AdVksp60lvODxAs3RT63wMugcqrHYQApVyaAAAKNagAAByuHAAABNTOAAAFMS4AAFcbkPgBM9QTg Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 14:22:31 +0000 Message-ID: References: , 8C76C2A5-ED1F-468E-9BF6-9285DEC5B760 In-Reply-To: 8C76C2A5-ED1F-468E-9BF6-9285DEC5B760 Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.185.75] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026D08F6dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 14:22:49 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026D08F6dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree with Jingrong. Suddenly, I am thinking about a question: Does SRv6+ bring new value to the networking beyond SRv6? What's the purpo= se? To compress the Routing header? Then we have many options to do that. W= hy a new RH with brand new routing scheme? Let's do the standard works together once again, another 5 years? No! I th= ink we should solve the problem based on the existing solution, instead of = creating a new mechanism. >From the aspect of information theory, what's the new info added by SRv6+? = What is that for? These are the questions should be answered. If we would like to provide an efficient encoding format, that is all right= . Please don't compare the length of RH only, since the length of DOH TLVs = should be counted as well. BTW, we already have C-SID, uSID and I believe there may be more options. I don't think moving info from SRv6 SIDs to DOH TLVs is a good choice. Bad = Performance of processing TLVs in DOH, and terrible scalability since only = 5 reserved types, or the 37 types when the CHG bit is reused. Also, how man= y bytes can be reduced by CRH. If you compare with C-SID, you will be surpr= ised that C-SID provides a more efficient encoding mechanism for SRv6 than = CRH. The first DOH works for the destinations encoded in RH does not mean the in= fo CAN NOT be carried in RH for per-segment processing. How about let's focus on how to reduce the overhead of SRv6, that will be v= ery helpful. Best Regards, Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xiejingrong Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2019 8:55 AM To: Ron Bonica ; Robert Raszuk ; Tom Herbert Cc: spring ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop options, but is totally meaningless= for Destination options. CHG is meaningful for both. Also I think the use of unique last-5bits of option is just a week recommen= dation. There is still enough space of 8bit if needed. It's not necessary = to change interpretation of CHG. Thanks Jingrong From:Ron Bonica > To:Robert Raszuk >;Tom Herbert = > Cc:spring >;6man <6man@ietf.org> Date:2019-09-08 06:32:00 SubjectRE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Robert, You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, except for the part where = you said that I was smart!) The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6. But it does not replace th= e SRH's tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the low order bits in the last SID= . More specially, it identifies a function to be executed by SR egress node= . It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.) As Tom says, the CRH is much simpler to parse that the SRH. It contains on= ly five fields, four of which are mandated by RFC 8200. (The other is the S= ID list.) Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It identifies an instructi= on to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the same information as an= MPLS service label or the low order bits of the final SID in as SRv6 SID l= ist. What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being nearly full may be a bit = of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop= options, but is totally meaningless for Destination options. So, for desti= nation options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide. Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:54 PM To: Tom Herbert > Cc: Ron Bonica >; spring@ie= tf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Dear Tom, > The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains > TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I was hoping you know that this is not true at all so I skipped commenting = on that aspect. Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know how to sell stuff which looks= simple and innocent on the surface like concept of CRH with just fixed lab= el/sid list while hide all complexity under the deep cover and only show li= ttle corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots. So what you call "complexity" has been just moved from routing header to de= stination options header and will be defined in number of different documen= ts piece by piece. Just please take a look at the proposal describing per path service instruc= tions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value so to me looks like TLV = structure going into IPv6 header. 4. The PPSI Option The PPSI Option contains the following fields: o Option Type: 8-bit selector. PPSI option. Value TBD by IANA. (Suggested value: 144). See Note below. o Opt Data Len - 8-bit unsigned integer. Length of the option, in octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields. This field MUST be set to 4. o PPSI identifier - (32-bit selector). Identifies a PPSI. REF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-vpn-dest-opt-06 That TLV value comes from Destination Options and Hop-by-Hop Options regist= ry which effectively is already full. It is 8 bit register with 3 first bit= s taken for identification so remaining are 5 bits. Now from that remaining= 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation.. https://www...iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xhtml So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the VPN extenstion renamed= what originally was called VPN Context Information Option to PPSI as it wa= s very obvious that with 5 remaining values there is no room for new types = for other service instructions. Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV format any potential ne= w service instructions. Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader to judge which approach = is more complex. Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by clearly defining SRv6 = SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker with IETF WGs ? Thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: Robert, You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote, not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex than SRV6+. The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is Linux, which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol. Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6, particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex. Tom On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk > wrote: > > > > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion > > Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an opt= ional optimization. > > > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet= . > > Really ? > > If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how wou= ld I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and two C= RH EHs in the packet under protection ? > > But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... > > All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few alre= ady proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the ne= w mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will = require real development resources. > > OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed an= d does require even more extensions. > > Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the = global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not pla= n to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third p= arties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requ= ires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. > > At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistak= es of the past (hint: LDP). > > Many thx, > R. > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: >> >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica >> > wrote: >> > >> > Folks, >> > >> > >> > >> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, "Al= l who wander are not lost." >> > >> > >> > >> > But it may be time to refocus on the following: >> > >> > >> > >> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed >> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered >> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution >> > >> > >> > >> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+. >> > >> + 1 >> >> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler >> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and >> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It >> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to >> have multiple routing headers in the same packet. >> >> Tom >> >> >> > >> > >> > = Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026D08F6dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Agree with Jingrong.

 

Suddenly, I am thinkin= g about a question:

Does SRv6+ bring n= ew value to the networking beyond SRv6?  What’s the purpose? To = compress the Routing header? Then we have many options to do that. Why a ne= w RH with brand new routing scheme?

 

Let's do the standard = works together once again, another 5 years? No!  I think we should sol= ve the problem based on the existing solution, instead of  creating a = new mechanism.

 

From the aspect of inf= ormation theory, what’s the new info added by SRv6+? What is that= for? These are the questions should be answered.

 

If we would like to pr= ovide an efficient encoding format, that is all right. Please don’t c= ompare the length of RH only, since the length of DOH TLVs should be counte= d as well.

BTW, we already have C= -SID, uSID and I believe there may be more options.

 

I don’t think mo= ving info from SRv6 SIDs to DOH TLVs is a good choice. Bad Performance of p= rocessing TLVs in DOH, and terrible scalability since only 5 reserved types= , or the 37 types when the CHG bit is reused. Also, how many bytes can be reduced by CRH. If you compare with C-SID, you= will be surprised that C-SID provides a more efficient encoding mechanism = for SRv6 than CRH.

 

The first DOH works fo= r the destinations encoded in RH does not mean the info CAN NOT be carried = in RH for per-segment processing.

 

How about let’s = focus on how to reduce the overhead of SRv6, that will be very helpful.

 

Best Regards,

Cheng

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]= On Behalf Of Xiejingrong
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2019 8:55 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; Rober= t Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>=
Cc: spring <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop options,= but is totally meaningless for Destination options.

CHG is meaningful for both.
Also I think the use of unique last-5bits of option is just a week recommen= dation.  There is still enough space of 8bit if needed. It's not neces= sary to change interpretation of CHG.

Thanks
Jingrong

To:= Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.ne= t>;Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com= >

Cc:= spring <spring@ietf.org>;6= man <6man@ietf.org>

Date:2019-09-08 06:32:00

Subject= RE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Robert,

 

You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, exc= ept for the part where you said that I was smart!)

 

The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6.= But it does not replace the SRH’s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces t= he low order bits in the last SID. More specially, it identifies a function= to be executed by SR egress node. It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.)

 

As Tom says,  the CRH is much simpler to parse = that the SRH. It contains only five fields, four of which are mandated by R= FC 8200. (The other is the SID list.)  

 

Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It = identifies an instruction to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the= same information as an MPLS service label or the low order bits of the fin= al SID in as SRv6 SID list.

 

What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being ne= arly full may be a bit of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is m= eaningful of hop-by-hop options, but is totally meaningless for Destination= options. So, for destination options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             = Ron

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:54 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbe= rtland.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Dear Tom,

 

> The most obvious difference, besides SID size, = is that SRV6 contains

> TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. 

 

I was hoping you know that this is not true at all s= o I skipped commenting on that aspect.

 

Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know ho= w to sell stuff which looks simple and innocent on the surface like concept= of CRH with just fixed label/sid list while hide all complexity under the = deep cover and only show little corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots. =

 

So what you call "complexity" has been jus= t moved from routing header to destination options header and will be defin= ed in number of different documents piece by piece. 

 

Just please take a look at the proposal describing p= er path service instructions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value s= o to me looks like TLV structure going into IPv6 header. 

 

4.  The PPSI Option

 
 
   The PPSI Option contains the =
following fields:
 
   o  Option Type: 8-bit se=
lector.  PPSI option.  Value TBD by IANA.
      (Suggested =
value: 144).  See Note below.
   o  Opt Data Len - 8-bit =
unsigned integer.  Length of the option, in
      octets, exc=
luding the Option Type and Option Length fields.  This
      field MUST =
be set to 4.
   o  PPSI identifier - (32=
-bit selector).  Identifies a PPSI.

 

 

That TLV value comes from Destination Options a= nd Hop-by-Hop Options registry which effectively is already full. It is 8 b= it register with 3 first bits taken for identification so remaining are 5 b= its. Now from that remaining 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation.. 

 

 

So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the= VPN extenstion renamed what originally was called VPN Context Info= rmation Option to PPSI as it was very obvious that with 5 remaining val= ues there is no room for new types for other service instructions. 

 

Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV = format any potential new service instructions. 

 

Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader t= o judge which approach is more complex. 

 

Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by= clearly defining SRv6 SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker wi= th IETF WGs ?

 

Thx,
R.

 

 

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:<= /o:p>

Robert,

You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote,
not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex
than SRV6+.

The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains
TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH<= br> and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as
they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of
SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all
except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is L= inux,
which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't
interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked
at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that
SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem
to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol.

Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is
more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6,
particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex.

Tom


On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
> > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion
>
> Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an = optional optimization.
>
> > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same = packet.
>
> Really ?
>
> If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA = how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs an= d two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ?
>
> But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...
>
> All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few a= lready proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support= the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping= ) will require real development resources.
>
> OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not= addressed and does require even more extensions.
>
> Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs = in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do = not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by = third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requires new signalling to distribute= mapping is non starter.
>
> At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mis= takes of the past (hint: LDP).
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
>> <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passi= onately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tol= kien, “All who wander are not lost.”
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem= of header length is addressed
>> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
>> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake t= o discontinue work on SRv6+.
>> >
>> + 1
>>
>> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much = simpler
>> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms a= nd
>> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH.= It
>> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need t= o
>> have multiple routing headers in the same packet.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >                 =                     &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp;                     =   Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Juniper Business Use Only
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> > ipv6@ietf.= org
>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026D08F6dggeml529mbxchi_-- From nobody Mon Sep 9 07:34:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF04120885; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 07:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SESws8LaPm3C; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 07:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42d.google.com (mail-pf1-x42d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A25D8120889; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 07:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42d.google.com with SMTP id x127so9274849pfb.7; Mon, 09 Sep 2019 07:34:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nktVFwxfE52Aq2BW7ABFfaNH2ym26KOevAH0X99CRqs=; b=BvufWdq5qoU5/anUN4rLzWwyO3vW5pjxcN3rzeQbdABizogWhE4GXm1Q6viSASUhMu Jnfe8PwzTUO6VniLClwqJXNDJP9jTXwL5MdmVeybQGbY7MwXsFl91RBaJTlcdMtn2uKx GquV+N7V8jUYGcrf61VoiMN5r/4qwK+MJoaGj3rrkBLfkiLNjQC5B00je/4qJosloliH L8D4WrjZMBwdUP8+D2xPy0FnBbUgZ8aK8pityUBkZqcHG6iwjE94h9fibOQOMgZnMEx1 WzX8dL/yUyzAJMEpToV5GupqOyvnaHKtjGftVj05cL2p4mbQ3yGyWpZhDx2D+jj6f4bG anZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nktVFwxfE52Aq2BW7ABFfaNH2ym26KOevAH0X99CRqs=; b=YGyCm3xWr9fxdRNUEo+zyCPaY6xL75BYS6uEk3cdaaw7sOyVvRvZ22yrpvoCLOutto oAJy2Z282pIWDB8kyFNNAKl6pw5seq6UIaa0MuX3ATfD0wtEPyPo8HQpSLZEyAbGtuev sJVO+0ZgmUbokhzmFMLJJFB7Ohxs+OuMaMQqTjtELV1/ae2G518bn9PlojZRZpMYDQUj XenNqf7qqHYkNJUuyfB8gvrVnI0fiz9dFx2sWv5rtg/u0Kb88nGFDKItzY4ygog4wN7b eDdcepZZhdUDY7LjFyUFCG94BuInxTbjvA4Sgtp2bmQI/pZVMAirY7KyEVs4e4wKlH85 bzRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU3l/mex47Tmbe5xCvhrneUe21x1Qs0uqHkDMy4CukMgQ680XpB qRPt1Ot+Kp1XeM0MoNgERNeWjau02bekjvt0XD0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwJSeqsHhSlpQvHEKMWiN4UhdsweTl+LMhwoF0LcNdUkbHU+zgsFendRK7dApTASAxNYOm0D2WZ3NBGo2MFq5U= X-Received: by 2002:a63:755e:: with SMTP id f30mr22027216pgn.246.1568039657522; Mon, 09 Sep 2019 07:34:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:34:05 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" Cc: Xiejingrong , Ron Bonica , Tom Herbert , spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c7caf905921fae47" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 14:34:24 -0000 --000000000000c7caf905921fae47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Cheng, Very spot on and accurate comments ! I could only add one additional and final point. Some people call SRv6+ an "innovation" and any honest comments about are immediately turned into an attempt to either stop or to make very difficult " to innovate in IETF. If taking shipping for years mapping based technology of SR-MPLS, mangling bits around, wrapping it into new control plane extensions, splitting SIDs from functions into two different extension headers to claim that CRH is now so slim etc ... is call technology innovation - then IETF should revisit policy of taking any proposal into its formal process. Kind regards, Robert. On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 4:23 PM Chengli (Cheng Li) wrote: > Agree with Jingrong. > > > > Suddenly, I am thinking about a question: > > Does SRv6+ bring new value to the networking beyond SRv6? What=E2=80=99s= the > purpose? To compress the Routing header? Then we have many options to do > that. Why a new RH with brand new routing scheme? > > > > Let's do the standard works together once again, another 5 years? No! I > think we should solve the problem based on the existing solution, instead > of creating a new mechanism. > > > > From the aspect of information theory, what=E2=80=99s the new info added = by SRv6+? > What is that for? These are the questions should be answered. > > > > If we would like to provide an efficient encoding format, that is all > right. Please don=E2=80=99t compare the length of RH only, since the leng= th of DOH > TLVs should be counted as well. > > BTW, we already have C-SID, uSID and I believe there may be more options. > > > > I don=E2=80=99t think moving info from SRv6 SIDs to DOH TLVs is a good ch= oice. Bad > Performance of processing TLVs in DOH, and terrible scalability since onl= y > 5 reserved types, or the 37 types when the CHG bit is reused. Also, how > many bytes can be reduced by CRH. If you compare with C-SID, you will be > surprised that C-SID provides a more efficient encoding mechanism for SRv= 6 > than CRH. > > > > The first DOH works for the destinations encoded in RH does not mean the > info CAN NOT be carried in RH for per-segment processing. > > > > How about let=E2=80=99s focus on how to reduce the overhead of SRv6, that= will be > very helpful. > > > > Best Regards, > > Cheng > > > > *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Xiejingron= g > *Sent:* Sunday, September 08, 2019 8:55 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica ; Robert Raszuk = < > robert@raszuk.net>; Tom Herbert > *Cc:* spring ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop options, but is totally > meaningless for Destination options. > > CHG is meaningful for both. > Also I think the use of unique last-5bits of option is just a week > recommendation. There is still enough space of 8bit if needed. It's not > necessary to change interpretation of CHG. > > Thanks > Jingrong > > *From:*Ron Bonica > > *To:*Robert Raszuk ;Tom Herbert > > *Cc:*spring ;6man <6man@ietf.org> > > *Date:*2019-09-08 06:32:00 > > *Subject*RE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > Robert, > > > > You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, except for the part wher= e > you said that I was smart!) > > > > The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6. But it does not replace > the SRH=E2=80=99s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the low order bits in = the last > SID. More specially, it identifies a function to be executed by SR egress > node. It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.= ) > > > > As Tom says, the CRH is much simpler to parse that the SRH. It contains > only five fields, four of which are mandated by RFC 8200. (The other is t= he > SID list.) > > > > Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It identifies an > instruction to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the same > information as an MPLS service label or the low order bits of the final S= ID > in as SRv6 SID list. > > > > What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being nearly full may be a bi= t > of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-h= op > options, but is totally meaningless for Destination options. So, for > destination options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide. > > > > R= on > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:54 PM > *To:* Tom Herbert > *Cc:* Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > > > > Dear Tom, > > > > > The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains > > > TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. > > > > I was hoping you know that this is not true at all so I skipped commentin= g > on that aspect. > > > > Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know how to sell stuff which > looks simple and innocent on the surface like concept of CRH with just > fixed label/sid list while hide all complexity under the deep cover and > only show little corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect > the dots. > > > > So what you call "complexity" has been just moved from routing header to > destination options header and will be defined in number of different > documents piece by piece. > > > > Just please take a look at the proposal describing per path service > instructions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value so to me looks > like TLV structure going into IPv6 header. > > > 4 > . > The PPSI Option > > > > > > The PPSI Option contains the following fields: > > > > o Option Type: 8-bit selector. PPSI option. Value TBD by IANA. > > (Suggested value: 144). See Note below. > > o Opt Data Len - 8-bit unsigned integer. Length of the option, in > > octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields. This > > field MUST be set to 4. > > o PPSI identifier - (32-bit selector). Identifies a PPSI. > > > > REF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-vpn-dest-opt-06 > > > > > That TLV value comes from Destination Options and Hop-by-Hop Options > registry which effectively is already full. It is 8 bit register with 3 > first bits taken for identification so remaining are 5 bits. Now from tha= t > remaining 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation.. > > > > https://www....iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xhtml > > > > > > So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the VPN extenstion > renamed what originally was called *VPN Context Information Option* to > PPSI as it was very obvious that with 5 remaining values there is no room > for new types for other service instructions. > > > > Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV format any potential > new service instructions. > > > > Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader to judge which approac= h > is more complex. > > > > Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by clearly defining SRv= 6 > SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker with IETF WGs ? > > > > Thx, > R. > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > > Robert, > > You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote, > not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex > than SRV6+. > > The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains > TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH > and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as > they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of > defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of > SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all > except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is Linux, > which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't > interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked > at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that > SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem > to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol. > > Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is > more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6, > particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex. > > Tom > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > > > > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion > > > > Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an > optional optimization. > > > > > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same > packet. > > > > Really ? > > > > If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how > would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and > two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ? > > > > But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... > > > > All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few > already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support > the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mappin= g) > will require real development resources. > > > > OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed > and does require even more extensions. > > > > Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in th= e > global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not > plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by > third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol > which requires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. > > > > At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid > mistakes of the past (hint: LDP). > > > > Many thx, > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > >> > >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Folks, > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately= . > I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, > =E2=80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of > header length is addressed > >> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > >> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to > discontinue work on SRv6+. > >> > > >> + 1 > >> > >> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler > >> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and > >> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It > >> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to > >> have multiple routing headers in the same packet. > >> > >> Tom > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > Ron > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Juniper Business Use Only > >> > > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> > ipv6@ietf.org > >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> spring mailing list > >> spring@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --000000000000c7caf905921fae47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Cheng,

Very spot on and accurate comments= !=C2=A0

I could only = add one additional and final point. Some people call SRv6+ an "innovat= ion" and any honest comments about are immediately turned into an atte= mpt to either stop or to make very difficult " to innovate in IETF.=C2= =A0

If taking shipping= for years mapping based technology of SR-MPLS, mangling bits around, wrapp= ing it into new control plane extensions, splitting SIDs from functions int= o two different=C2=A0 extension headers to claim that CRH is now so slim et= c ... is call=C2=A0 technology innovation - then IETF should revisit policy= of taking any proposal into its formal process.=C2=A0

Kind regards,
Robe= rt.


=
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 4:23 PM Chengl= i (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.c= om> wrote:

Agree with Jing= rong.

=C2=A0

Suddenly, I am = thinking about a question:

Does SRv6+ brin= g new value to the networking beyond SRv6?=C2=A0 What=E2=80=99s the purpose= ? To compress the Routing header? Then we have many options to do that. Why= a new RH with brand new routing scheme?

=C2=A0

Let's do th= e standard works together once again, another 5 years? No!=C2=A0 I think we= should solve the problem based on the existing solution, instead of=C2=A0 = creating a new mechanism.

=C2=A0

From the aspect= of information theory, what=E2=80=99s the new info added by SRv6+? What is= that for? These are the questions should be answered.=

=C2=A0

If we would lik= e to provide an efficient encoding format, that is all right. Please don=E2= =80=99t compare the length of RH only, since the length of DOH TLVs should = be counted as well.

BTW, we already= have C-SID, uSID and I believe there may be more options.

=C2=A0

I don=E2=80=99t= think moving info from SRv6 SIDs to DOH TLVs is a good choice. Bad Perform= ance of processing TLVs in DOH, and terrible scalability since only 5 reser= ved types, or the 37 types when the CHG bit is reused. Also, how many bytes can be reduced by CRH. If you compare with C-SID, you= will be surprised that C-SID provides a more efficient encoding mechanism = for SRv6 than CRH.

=C2=A0

The first DOH w= orks for the destinations encoded in RH does not mean the info CAN NOT be c= arried in RH for per-segment processing.

=C2=A0

How about let= =E2=80=99s focus on how to reduce the overhead of SRv6, that will be very h= elpful.

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Cheng=

=C2=A0

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Xiejingrong
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2019 8:55 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; Robert Ras= zuk <robert@raszu= k.net>; Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: spring <= spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

the CHG bit is meaningful of hop-by-hop options, b= ut is totally meaningless for Destination options.

CHG is meaningful for both.
Also I think the use of unique last-5bits of option is just a week recommen= dation.=C2=A0 There is still enough space of 8bit if needed. It's not n= ecessary to change interpretation of CHG.

Thanks
Jingrong

From:= rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org><= /u>

To:= Robert Raszuk <ro= bert@raszuk.net>;Tom Herbert <tom@h= erbertland.com>

Cc:= spring <spring@ietf= .org>;6man <6man@ietf.org&g= t;

Date:= SubjectRE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

Robert,

=C2=A0

You may need to rethink your argument. (That is, exc= ept for the part where you said that I was smart!)

=C2=A0

The SRv6+ PPSI does replaces something int SRv6. But= it does not replace the SRH=E2=80=99s tags, flags or TLVs. It replaces the= low order bits in the last SID. More specially, it identifies a function t= o be executed by SR egress node. It replaces functions like END.DT4, END.DT6, END.DX4, END.DX6, etc.)

=C2=A0

As Tom says, =C2=A0the CRH is much simpler to parse = that the SRH. It contains only five fields, four of which are mandated by R= FC 8200. (The other is the SID list.) =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Unlike TLVs, the PPSI is fixed length (32 bits). It = identifies an instruction to be executed on the SR egress node. Carries the= same information as an MPLS service label or the low order bits of the fin= al SID in as SRv6 SID list.

=C2=A0

What you say about the IPv6 Option registry being ne= arly full may be a bit of an exaggeration. This is because the CHG bit is m= eaningful of hop-by-hop options, but is totally meaningless for Destination= options. So, for destination options, the IPv6 option registry is actually 6 bits wide.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Ron

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 5:54 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"> 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

=C2=A0

Dear Tom,

=C2=A0

> The most obvious difference, besides SID size, = is that SRV6 contains

>=C2=A0TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I was hoping you know that this is not true at all s= o I skipped commenting on that aspect.

=C2=A0

Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know how to= sell stuff which looks simple and innocent on the surface like concept of = CRH with just fixed label/sid list while hide all complexity under the deep= cover and only show little corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots.=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

So what you call "complexity" has been jus= t moved from routing header to destination options header and will be defin= ed in number of different documents piece by piece.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Just please take a look at the proposal describing p= er path service instructions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value s= o to me looks like TLV structure going into IPv6 header.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

4.=C2=A0 The PPSI Option

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The PPSI Option contains the =
following fields:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Option Type: 8-bit se=
lector.=C2=A0 PPSI option.=C2=A0 Value TBD by IANA.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (Suggested =
value: 144).=C2=A0 See Note below.


=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Opt Data Len - 8-bit =
unsigned integer.=C2=A0 Length of the option, in


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 octets, exc=
luding the Option Type and Option Length fields.=C2=A0 This


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 field MUST =
be set to 4.


=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 PPSI identifier - (32=
-bit selector).=C2=A0 Identifies a PPSI.


=C2=A0

=C2=A0

That TLV value comes from=C2=A0Destination Options a= nd Hop-by-Hop Options registry which effectively is already full. It is 8 b= it register with 3 first bits taken for identification so remaining are 5 b= its. Now from that remaining 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation..=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the= VPN extenstion renamed what originally was called=C2=A0VPN Context Info= rmation Option to PPSI as it was very obvious that with 5 remaining val= ues there is no room for new types for other service instructions.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV = format any potential new service instructions.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader t= o judge which approach is more complex.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by= clearly defining SRv6 SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker wi= th IETF WGs ?

=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:

Robert,

You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote,
not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex
than SRV6+.

The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains
TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, = HBH
and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as
they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of
defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of
SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all
except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is L= inux,
which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked
at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that
SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol.

Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is
more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6,
particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex.

Tom


On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
>
> > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion
>
> Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an = optional optimization.
>
> > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the s= ame packet.
>
> Really ?
>
> If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how = would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and tw= o CRH EHs in the packet under protection ?
>
> But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...
>
> All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few a= lready proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the= new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) wi= ll require real development resources.
>
> OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not= addressed and does require even more extensions.
>
> Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in t= he global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not = plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by thir= d parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requires new signalling to distribute= mapping is non starter.
>
> At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mis= takes of the past (hint: LDP).
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
>> <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passi= onately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tol= kien, =E2=80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem= of header length is addressed
>> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
>> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake t= o discontinue work on SRv6+.
>> >
>> + 1
>>
>> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much = simpler
>> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms a= nd
>> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH.= It
>> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's n= o need to
>> have multiple routing headers in the same packet.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Juniper Business Use Only
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> > ipv6@ietf.= org
>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--000000000000c7caf905921fae47-- From nobody Mon Sep 9 08:04:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 664F212080B; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LXM-bDJBDk9F; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57A571201B7; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 627946DB32A61FA33C33; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:04:22 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:04:22 +0100 Received: from lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) by lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:04:21 +0100 Received: from DGGEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.49) by lhreml703-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.52) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:04:21 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.58]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 23:04:15 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Ron Bonica , Robert Raszuk CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Thread-Index: AdVksp60lvODxAs3RT63wMugcqrHYQApVyaAAAKNagAACFEUAAAAd6iAAAE6kQAAZTrwYA== Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:04:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.185.75] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026D0971dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 15:04:27 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026D0971dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, Do you mean the function like END.B6.Encaps defined in https://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01#section-4.15? To me, It is really good to discuss do we need a function like END.B6.Inser= t, that is fine. But It does not mean Encapsulation is a benefit of CRH, si= nce it is a sub-set of SRv6. Based on this sub-set, let's discuss do we need to do EH-Insertion, that wi= ll be very helpful to solve the problem. Best Regards, Cheng From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ron Bonica Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2019 6:41 AM To: Robert Raszuk Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: RE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Robert, I don't have slides, but it should be pretty easy to describe. Rather than = inserting a second Routing header between the IPv6 header and the existing = router, Arv6+ the following: - Update SL and the IPv6 destination address, if required - Prepend an IPv6 header with its own Routing header Also, I don't understand your comment about a packet with two SRv6+ Destina= tion Options headers. I can't think of a situation where that ever happens. = Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 6:06 PM To: Ron Bonica > Cc: Tom Herbert >; spring@i= etf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ Ron, > SRv6+ relies on prepending Interesting ... can you elaborate how you will do TI-LFA with SRv6+ ? If yo= u have slides showing packet format when TI-LFA is performed in the middle = of SRv6+ domain please just kindly fell free to share a pointer to it. > I don't understand your comment about two destination headers And I do not understand what you may not understand. Is your "prepending" t= he same what some may consider "insertion" then ? Thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:52 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Robert, Tom is correct. In SRv6+, there is never any need for one packet to contain= two routing headers. SRv6+ relies on prepending, in all cases, including T= I-LFA. Because the CRH is short, this works just fine. I don't understand your comment about two destination headers. You might wa= nt to rethink that. Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:54 PM To: Tom Herbert > Cc: Ron Bonica >; spring@ie= tf.org; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an optio= nal optimization. > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet. Really ? If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how would= I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and two CRH= EHs in the packet under protection ? But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few alread= y proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the new = mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will re= quire real development resources. OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed and = does require even more extensions. Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in the gl= obal IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not plan = to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third par= ties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which requir= es new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. At the end we should learn from others .... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mistake= s of the past (hint: LDP). Many thx, R. On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica > wrote: > > Folks, > > > > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. I t= hink that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, "All w= ho wander are not lost." > > > > But it may be time to refocus on the following: > > > > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of header l= ength is addressed > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution > > > > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discontinu= e work on SRv6+. > + 1 I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same packet. Tom > > > = Ron > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Juniper Business Use Only --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026D0971dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ron,

 

Do you mean the functi= on like END.B6.Encaps defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sprin= g-srv6-network-programming-01#section-4.15?

 

To me, It is really go= od to discuss do we need a function like END.B6.Insert, that is fine. But I= t does not mean Encapsulation is a benefit of CRH, since it is a sub-set of= SRv6.

 

Based on this sub-set,= let's discuss do we need to do EH-Insertion, that will be very helpful to = solve the problem.

 

Best Regards,

Cheng

 

From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Ron Bonica
Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2019 6:41 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Robert,

 

I don’t have slides, but it should be pretty e= asy to describe. Rather than inserting a second Routing header between the = IPv6 header and the existing router, Arv6+ the following:

 

-       = ;   Update SL and the IPv6 destination address, if requ= ired

-       = ;   Prepend an IPv6 header with its own Routing header<= o:p>

 

Also, I don’t understand your comment about a = packet with two SRv6+ Destination Options headers. I can’t think = of a situation where that ever happens.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;        Ron

 

From: Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 6:06 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>
Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@herbe= rtland.com>; spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

Ron,

 

> SRv6+ relies on prepending <= /span>

 

Interesting ... can you elaborate how you will do TI-= LFA with SRv6+ ? If you have slides showing packet format when TI-LFA i= s performed in the middle of SRv6+ domain please just kindly fell free to share a pointer to it.

 

> I don’t understand your comment about two = destination headers  

 

And I do not understand what you may not understand. = Is your "prepending" the same what some may consider "insert= ion" then ? 

 

Thx,

R.

 

 

 

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:52 PM Ron Bonica <rboni= ca=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ie= tf.org> wrote:

Robert,

 

Tom is correct. In SRv6+, there is never any need for one pack= et to contain two routing headers. SRv6+ relies on prepending, in all c= ases, including TI-LFA.

 

Because the CRH is short, this works just fine.

 

I don’t understand your comment about two destination header= s. You might want to rethink that.

 

           =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =         Ron

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:54 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; <= a href=3D"mailto:6man@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"> 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+

 

 

> It doesn't depend on extension header insertion 

 

Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is= an optional optimization. 

 

> and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the s= ame packet.  

 

Really ? 

 

If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-= LFA how would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EH= s and two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ? 

 

But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... <= /p>

 

All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a f= ew already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to sup= port the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) will require real development resou= rces. 

 

OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is= not addressed and does require even more extensions. 

 

Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment ne= eds in the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I= do not plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by third parties is all I need to construct op= timal paths. So any protocol which requires new signalling to distribute ma= pping is non starter. 

 

At the end we should learn from others .... (hint SDWANs) and avoi= d mistakes of the past (hint: LDP). 

 

Many thx,

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
>
>
> We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passionately. = I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tolkien, = 220;All who wander are not lost.”
>
>
>
> But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>
>
>
> For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of heade= r length is addressed
> Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
> SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>
>
>
> Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to discont= inue work on SRv6+.
>
+ 1

I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and
protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It
doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to
have multiple routing headers in the same packet.

Tom


>
>
>                    &= nbsp;                    =                     &nbs= p;                     Ro= n
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri= ng

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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--_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026D0971dggeml529mbxchi_-- From nobody Mon Sep 9 08:08:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4DA12080F for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:08:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AN1Vkam0aPo5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x536.google.com (mail-ed1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0598F120828 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x536.google.com with SMTP id z9so13268701edq.8 for ; Mon, 09 Sep 2019 08:08:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XdY7OdclA0xFUyxouitxncSdD4hbiUQghaJGfMYzyVQ=; b=GRga4lq26M2JZUwkx7J9DmMIq0337LC/Pv5A9qfeKhR0BKoOoOBHe5hgw56JC1kG9M SCJn6tOS2bulk4m7cBIS03Qx7H9Z3ZwcJ6y8No2BageZl0KWKwyAKdl0cgvFhSrXfZmM bkKYPPHc8ecPCZNGnqMCPBPekYjWsXTKCXn/MjnG2yLR9OnwdIFU7m4OEkFVC2IUA3/P mqW1QssnE3KjW0M8uLKrzjhRwIYKFZJ3jOCJYJBavGjXCmavM03XlFT4E7HeQlYywau/ GdnINyvQt4lnplFypAXMFlZZOr54epDp49fUmzt2pC/m8cDMy+nzcA5RXYYp/mHnF4FJ vD7A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XdY7OdclA0xFUyxouitxncSdD4hbiUQghaJGfMYzyVQ=; b=d/03t1xunO/m2RM+7Ki1uNRtPfbbBUX/TgNUHVr//l+s84zQ8ilT4LWe+iQwjllDOc Sgum+8SXudm7e7QsXML8M+TtwJIjyprgJC/z9zwUEh+o8wDxvSt/u/zvAIRQd/EIFW6T H5IInFUg4bZCqzRTDU+vAhcpegBqniTXqtOEXXBE57YjgsywnsK1oR7MwLIPDH50768o 2z5v3DrgigUp8vH7wJ6kuWYd+CbqMUAppWf5fovfEq+Af3A7CqN2TGy+gPgF+2hIH/mC sdm32nuVE5fMZbo090I+8SLdfU3gtOx52q1DKXGDieLJeM9uCnGejDvdb0+E5At0RrT/ li5g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWaC7LJVlQUIkg37yHcng/dialnQK4n1Hdz4+g+zZauy9yE9gJg SG6PPsJq6se3G0zozncAGtEjTLkr1npd7duzHlYEAw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwh2EeK4lMWNRcIIc8V497CFLeYb2Kh/f9Zof8DsHx7X3vQWcp1U1y0O7esihpiN7qEQgPCCnbDBZAmWOIjMgM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:128a:: with SMTP id k10mr2733117ejb.9.1568041690290; Mon, 09 Sep 2019 08:08:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:07:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f1703805922027b8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 15:08:17 -0000 --000000000000f1703805922027b8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Sep 7, 2019, 2:54 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > Dear Tom, > > > The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains > > TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. > > I was hoping you know that this is not true at all so I skipped commentin= g > on that aspect. > > Folks promoting SRv6+ are smart and they know how to sell stuff which > looks simple and innocent on the surface like concept of CRH with just > fixed label/sid list while hide all complexity under the deep cover and > only show little corners of it here and there hoping no one will connect > the dots. > > So what you call "complexity" has been just moved from routing header to > destination options header and will be defined in number of different > documents piece by piece. > > Just please take a look at the proposal describing per path service > instructions encoding. It does have Type Length and Value so to me looks > like TLV structure going into IPv6 header. > > 4 . The PPSI Option > > The PPSI Option contains the following fields: > > o Option Type: 8-bit selector. PPSI option. Value TBD by IANA. > (Suggested value: 144). See Note below. > > o Opt Data Len - 8-bit unsigned integer. Length of the option, in > octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields. This > field MUST be set to 4. > o PPSI identifier - (32-bit selector). Identifies a PPSI. > > > REF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-vpn-dest-opt-06 > > That TLV value comes from Destination Options and Hop-by-Hop Options > registry which effectively is already full. It is 8 bit register with 3 > first bits taken for identification so remaining are 5 bits. Now from tha= t > remaining 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation. > Robert, I believe you are misinterpreting option number allocations. The whole number needs to be unique, not just the low order 5 bits. PSSI option type has act bits 10 and chg bit 0, so high order bits are 100. There are four numbers assigned with those bits which leaves 28 that are unassigned if I'm reading it right. In any case, I don't believe option number space being exhausted is why TLVs are in SRV6 (if it was a problem, we'd want a general solution instead of point solution just for SRV6). The reasons why TLVs were need in SRV6, as opposed to using DO or HBH, are unclear to me. I think it's some feeling that there are options inherent to the SID list, it makes it easier to ignore options, and maybe some amount of "not invented here". Tom > https://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv6-parameters/ipv6-parameters.xhtml > > So they noticed that and just at the last rev of the VPN extenstion > renamed what originally was called *VPN Context Information Option* to > PPSI as it was very obvious that with 5 remaining values there is no room > for new types for other service instructions. > > Now the plan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV format any potential > new service instructions. > > Now I will leave it as the exercise for the reader to judge which approac= h > is more complex. > > Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by clearly defining SRv= 6 > SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker with IETF WGs ? > > Thx, > R. > > > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > >> Robert, >> >> You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote, >> not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex >> than SRV6+. >> >> The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains >> TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, HBH >> and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as >> they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of >> defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of >> SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all >> except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is Linux, >> which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't >> interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked >> at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that >> SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem >> to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol. >> >> Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is >> more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6, >> particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex. >> >> Tom >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: >> > >> > >> > > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion >> > >> > Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an >> optional optimization. >> > >> > > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the same >> packet. >> > >> > Really ? >> > >> > If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how >> would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and >> two CRH EHs in the packet under protection ? >> > >> > But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ... >> > >> > All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few >> already proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support >> the new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mappi= ng) >> will require real development resources. >> > >> > OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not addressed >> and does require even more extensions. >> > >> > Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in >> the global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do = not >> plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by >> third parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol >> which requires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter. >> > >> > At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid >> mistakes of the past (hint: LDP). >> > >> > Many thx, >> > R. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert wrote= : >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Folks, >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime >> passionately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the word= s >> of Tolkien, =E2=80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > But it may be time to refocus on the following: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem of >> header length is addressed >> >> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered >> >> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake to >> discontinue work on SRv6+. >> >> > >> >> + 1 >> >> >> >> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much simpler >> >> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms and >> >> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH. It >> >> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's no need to >> >> have multiple routing headers in the same packet. >> >> >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Ron >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> >> > >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - >> >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> spring mailing list >> >> spring@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > --000000000000f1703805922027b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Sep 7, 2019, 2:54 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Dear Tom,
> The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that= SRV6 contains
>=C2=A0TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't.=C2=A0
<= div>
I was hoping you know that this is not true at all so I = skipped commenting on that aspect.

Folks promoting= SRv6+ are smart and they know how to sell stuff which looks simple and inn= ocent on the surface like concept of CRH with just fixed label/sid list whi= le hide all complexity under the deep cover and only show little corners of= it here and there hoping no one will connect the dots.=C2=A0
So what you call "complexity" has been just moved fro= m routing header to destination options header and will be defined in numbe= r of different documents piece by piece.=C2=A0

Jus= t please take a look at the proposal describing per path service instructio= ns encoding. It does have Type Length and Value so to me looks like TLV str= ucture going into IPv6 header.=C2=A0

4.  The PPSI Option
=


   The PPSI Option contains the following fields:

   o  Option Type: 8-bit selector.  PPSI option.  Value TBD by IANA.
      (Suggested value: 144).  See Note below.

   o  Opt Data Len - 8-bit unsigned integer.  Length of the option, in
      octets, excluding the Option Type and Option Length fields.  This
      field MUST be set to 4.
   o  PPSI identifier - (32-bit selector).  Identifies a PPSI.

<= /div>

Tha= t TLV value comes from=C2=A0Destination Options and Hop-by-Hop Options regi= stry which effectively is already full. It is 8 bit register with 3 first b= its taken for identification so remaining are 5 bits. Now from that remaini= ng 5 bits (32 values) only 5 values are left for allocation.=C2=A0

Robert,

I believe y= ou are misinterpreting option number allocations. The whole number needs to= be unique, not just the low order 5 bits. PSSI option type has act bits 10= and chg bit 0, so high order bits are 100. There are four numbers assigned= with those bits which leaves 28 that are unassigned if I'm reading it = right.

In any case, I do= n't believe option number space being exhausted is why TLVs are in SRV6= (if it was a problem, we'd want a general solution instead of point so= lution just for SRV6). The reasons why TLVs were need in SRV6, as opposed t= o using DO or HBH, are unclear to me. I think it's some feeling that th= ere are options inherent to the SID list, it makes it easier to ignore opti= ons, and maybe some amount of "not invented here".

Tom

=


So they n= oticed that and just at the last rev of the VPN extenstion renamed what ori= ginally was called=C2=A0VPN Context Information Option to PPSI as it= was very obvious that with 5 remaining values there is no room for new typ= es for other service instructions.=C2=A0

Now the p= lan is to nest under PPSI TLV in a sub-TLV format any potential new service= instructions.=C2=A0

Now I will leave it as the ex= ercise for the reader to judge which approach is more complex.=C2=A0
<= div>
Is it to put the cards on the table and play open by cle= arly defining SRv6 SRH with SIDs and functions or to play such poker with I= ETF WGs ?

Thx,
R.
=C2=A0
On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:19 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
Rob= ert,

You've chosen to selectively comment on only parts of what I wrote,
not the main thesis which is that SRV6 packet format is more complex
than SRV6+.

The most obvious difference, besides SID size, is that SRV6 contains
TLVs and SRV6+ doesn't. I don't believe that this was ever needed, = HBH
and destination already exist in RC8200 and could have been used as
they will be in SRV6+. Similarly, AH could have been used instead of
defining SR specific HMAC. Furthermore, several implementations of
SRV6 are listed in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-22; all
except one have the words "no TLV processing". The exception is L= inux,
which doesn't not implement SR TLVs per the standard and wouldn't interoperate with an implementation that is conformant (I have looked
at the Linux code and in fact have suggested a fix). So the claim that
SRV6 is mature and deployed is suspect considering there doesn't seem to be proper support for TLVs which is a major part of the protocol.

Based on this analysis, I believe my statement that SRV6 format is
more complex than SRV6+ is factual. It's my opinion that SRV6,
particularly because of TLVs, is overly complex.

Tom


On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 10:54 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> = wrote:
>
>
> > It doesn't depend on extension header insertion
>
> Nothing depends on extension header insertion ... SRH insertion is an = optional optimization.
>
> > and there's no need to have multiple routing headers in the s= ame packet.
>
> Really ?
>
> If I am doing SRv6+ in my network for TE and want to to do TI-LFA how = would I not end up with 3 IPv6 fixed headers and two Dest Option EHs and tw= o CRH EHs in the packet under protection ?
>
> But this is just tip of the ugliness iceberg ...
>
> All required extensions to protocols developed in to name just a few a= lready proposed by SRv6+ authors: IDR, LSR, BESS and 6MAN WG to support the= new mapping (which is other then nomenclature close to SR-MPLS mapping) wi= ll require real development resources.
>
> OAM in spite of few claims from Ron that "just works" is not= addressed and does require even more extensions.
>
> Then last I will not be able to use SRv6+ for my deployment needs in t= he global IPv6 overlay I am running simply that within my overlay I do not = plan to run any control plane. Underlay basic reachability provided by thir= d parties is all I need to construct optimal paths. So any protocol which r= equires new signalling to distribute mapping is non starter.
>
> At the end we should learn from others ... (hint SDWANs) and avoid mis= takes of the past (hint: LDP).
>
> Many thx,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 6:41 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 6:08 AM Ron Bonica
>> <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote= :
>> >
>> > Folks,
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We have explored many facets of SRv6 and SRv6, sometime passi= onately. I think that this exploration is a good thing. In the words of Tol= kien, =E2=80=9CAll who wander are not lost.=E2=80=9D
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > But it may be time to refocus on the following:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > For many operators, SRv6 is not deployable unless the problem= of header length is addressed
>> > Many objections the uSID proposal remain unanswered
>> > SRv6+ offers an alternative solution
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Given these three facts, I think that it would be a mistake t= o discontinue work on SRv6+.
>> >
>> + 1
>>
>> I'd suggest a fourth fact. The packet format of SRv6+ is much = simpler
>> than SRv6 and the protocol works better with existing mechanisms a= nd
>> protocols of IPv6 like Destination and HBH options, as well as AH.= It
>> doesn't depend on extension header insertion and there's n= o need to
>> have multiple routing headers in the same packet.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Ron
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Juniper Business Use Only
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> > ipv6@ietf.org
>> > Administrative Requests: https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------= -------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/spring
--000000000000f1703805922027b8-- From nobody Mon Sep 9 08:16:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BBE1200B1 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:16:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mqJHMeekzPHo for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED8F012008B for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 08:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id z67so13357661qkb.12 for ; Mon, 09 Sep 2019 08:16:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YJtj07XFGPZ0ARU9srRKEoTy8MXH6voJDkbji0S9fPM=; b=HrzokwRS/C76Ge+uYw9wpQ5d5es7A1w5Y5FyL42m720tvAK6REQso/4Td2jFR4XQmr P066m/BSFnyMy4LflKbWY9j9QruEky4LsdJe8lVMxf161qZ16rLCy+WgQitM4syQmQk0 7ZRO3ERcx8argck3c87wbwFFFVCfkCDRKY2xoBVTVHmLcJyUX5Y6TVYhYg9nHaxdk9oz 0giQU2jYLBbN7jL6p5Y0wMuPuRbkpkjbIVVjQ5ct2+5Om/+znYhTlGBswwxubYywI606 hnkGlGU1ajVAHPt0ECklKJjpa3Y8EEW8FJ6ZCuPSD4byIp8lHzdHVPxHyocDX8jU/L4o 2h2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YJtj07XFGPZ0ARU9srRKEoTy8MXH6voJDkbji0S9fPM=; b=LyVyWZOorF493pd2wdvTCVIKOplC2djcBtZd0F0NqDXX5M/oZUSJv3DyXnazAviu6Y meD7X4We2aG7ivjbCCDlqNezc6B6gtSK5osXKGfrsBl9yvKvKFgn3TkEhUyQlk3CQVyY 4M/uYrN2OhbIGPrpruk4h6du1Ri0nzftESv9tXrNCEtUaY4yKmi0NSjTuHDFNZJ1RHxO 2Af7ftfGePxQfJUJrK1lKCqxG0X3bAGdtiafpNM9wUFSGgGi22Nd30FOPXL8BC6ZKbI6 gDDdXsr708/C9KlVTX1g/ViazJeu2Oesk+f3I7rrxfj/cSi7vbeNjgr+qeKm0xXwEpym qWfA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWrhY3uhimD7p0BenVcmhL/trcffMEk3hC5Y5IFqpbad5bbAf07 P+9wl+czrVC0xkMIY6rpka+eTLhm1pk/lC5aogmXwA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw4TluYCdLZfB/Qvx6EFK00N+CZN6TzkxCu7m7OuUvkM0l5WE4THb+Jg9p+kIVAME/WQXyFlS5gnCVXhSqPsTs= X-Received: by 2002:a37:8547:: with SMTP id h68mr22915030qkd.219.1568042175896; Mon, 09 Sep 2019 08:16:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 17:16:04 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e33393059220447c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 15:16:19 -0000 --000000000000e33393059220447c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > In any case, I don't believe option number space being exhausted is why > TLVs are in SRV6 (if it was a problem, we'd want a general solution instead > of point solution just for SRV6). The reasons why TLVs were need in SRV6, > as opposed to using DO or HBH, are unclear to me. I think it's some feeling > that there are options inherent to the SID list, it makes it easier to > ignore options, and maybe some amount of "not invented here" > I think it is useful to keep new functionality under one type - if for nothing else then for easy filtering on the domian egress and ingress. If you split this into N EH types then further nest some functions even further it becomes very difficult by the operator to filter it. To your very last point - if getting new EH type takes over 5 years - sorry but this is not a velocity any operator can accept in order to make his service better then competition the new paradigm of easily programmable data plane. Many thx, Robert. --000000000000e33393059220447c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In any case, I don't believe option number space being exhausted= is why TLVs are in SRV6 (if it was a problem, we'd want a general solu= tion instead of point solution just for SRV6). The reasons why TLVs were ne= ed in SRV6, as opposed to using DO or HBH, are unclear to me. I think it= 9;s some feeling that there are options inherent to the SID list, it makes = it easier to ignore options, and maybe some amount of "not invented he= re"

I think it is useful t= o keep new functionality under one type - if for nothing else then for easy= filtering on the domian egress and ingress.=C2=A0

If you split this into N EH types then further nest some functions even fu= rther it becomes very difficult by the operator to filter it.=C2=A0

To your very last point - if getting new EH type takes ov= er 5 years - sorry but this is not a velocity any operator can accept in or= der to make his service better then competition the new paradigm of easily = programmable data plane.=C2=A0

Many thx,
Robert.




<= div>

=C2=A0
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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:22:04 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB54639088D4875F3002A8E66FAEB70BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Gyan, Amplifying what you have said..... There is no reason why SR-MPLS shouldn't work over an IPv6 only infrastruct= ure. So long as every node is MPLS capable, SR-MPLS should not require IPv4= to be enabled. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Gyan Mishra Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 3:20 AM To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Srihari Sangli ; SPRING WG List ;= 6man@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) ; Rob Shakir ; Ron Bonica ; Tarek Saad Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls networks I think our = traditional bread and butter "mpls" will be around for a very very long tim= e as is IPv4 if not longer. Most all service provider cores run greater then or equal to MTU 9000 mpls = cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked on plus edge overhead= from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general making the core the ma= ximum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is generally done= out in the field. So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is really a non issue= for most operators. >From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two fol= d one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end u= p requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 sou= rce node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence= on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or RFC regardin= g Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque= LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that add= s an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur fo= r Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that use case for me. Also the EH insertion= on intermediate node what is the use case or reason for that. My guess is= it's for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together. Please clar= ify. I do agree with some of the other operators on the marketing hype and push = for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service provider as goes the mantra .= ."if it's not broken..don't try to fix it..leave it alone" and I think you = can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for service prov= iders since the 90's ever since ATM and frame relay were put to rest so I d= on't think that it's going away any time soon. I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state of affairs for vendors = to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and support of MPLS as that w= ould really pigeon hole all operators into one technology which does not fi= t the bill for every use case out there. The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and forcing operators to go= with SRv6 is a wrong move for vendors and would really limit operators wit= h flexibility to chose based on their use case to stay with traditional mpl= s or go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use c= ase warrants. I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and the industry as = yet another tool in our operator "design toolbox" to use as we see fit or n= ot use but not be forced into it. There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from existing LDP = and the downside of having state maintained in the core is not a downside a= s the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is no savings i= n pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS "Sr-prefer" and ditching LDP. I think the major use case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE feat= ure for L3 VPNs steering without adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback = egress PE FEC next hop to traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic. That is a uniqu= e use case and not every major service provider has that requirement so if = you don't their really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and you can = stay put with the tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and = is not going away any time soon. SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case that could serve for M= PLS core replacement or on the public internet or for enterprise network tr= affic engineering of flows between data centers or access to data center an= d an alternative to SD WAN application based routing solutions. But here a= s well the use case benefit has to exist. Nobody wants to be forced into i= t if it's unnecessary added complexity. My 2 1/2 cents Regards, Gyan Mishra Verizon Communications Cell- 301 502-1347 Sent from my iPhone On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: I don't think so. In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure real = customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU issues. So ad= ding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient. Wrong tree :) Cheers, R. On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli > wrote: On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said > Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real problem ? Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its inefficient enco= ding. srihari... _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BYAPR05MB54639088D4875F3002A8E66FAEB70BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Gyan,

 

Amplifying what you have said…..

 

There is no reason why SR-MPLS shouldn’t work = over an IPv6 only infrastructure. So long as every node is MPLS capable, SR= -MPLS should not require IPv4 to be enabled.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;       Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com&g= t;
Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 3:20 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net>; SPRING WG List <s= pring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>;= Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>= ;; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpl= s networks I think our traditional bread and butter “mpls” will= be around for a very very long time as is IPv4 if not longer.

 

Most all service provider cores run greater then or = equal to MTU 9000 mpls cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacke= d on plus edge overhead from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general = making  the core the maximum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is generally done out in the= field.

 

So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertion= s is really a non issue for 

most operators.

 

From reading through all the discussion threads the = SR insertion is two fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or rem= ote LFA tunnel so end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE t= unnel head end SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermed= iate nodes.  I have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LF= A with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA an= d is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH inserti= on needs to occur for Ti-LFA.  Can someone clarify that use case for m= e.  Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or= reason for that.  My guess is it’s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together.  Please clarify.

 

I do agree with some of the other operators on the m= arketing hype and push for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service provid= er as goes the mantra ..”if it’s not broken..don’t try to= fix it..leave it alone” and I think you can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for service providers since th= e 90’s ever since ATM and frame relay were put to rest so I don’= ;t think that it’s going away any time soon.

 

I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state = of affairs for vendors to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and su= pport of MPLS as that would really pigeon hole all operators into one techn= ology which does not fit the bill for every use case out there.

 

The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and = forcing operators to go with SRv6 is a wrong move for vendors and would rea= lly limit operators with flexibility to chose based on their use case to st= ay with traditional mpls or go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use case warrants= .

 

I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendo= rs and the industry as yet another tool in our operator “design toolb= ox” to use as we see fit or not use but not be forced into it.

 

There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migra= tion from existing LDP and the downside of having state maintained in the c= ore is not a downside as the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway s= o their is no savings in pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS “Sr-prefer” and ditching LDP.  &nbs= p;

 

I think the major use case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is c= oloring per-vrf TE feature for L3 VPNs steering without adding complexity o= f adding ibgp loopback egress PE FEC next hop to traffic engineer L3 VPN tr= affic.  That is a unique use case and not every major service provider has that requirement so if you don= 217;t their really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and you can stay= put with the tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and is n= ot going away any time soon.

 

SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case= that could serve for MPLS core replacement or on the public internet or fo= r enterprise network traffic engineering of flows between data centers or a= ccess to data center and an alternative to SD WAN application based routing solutions.  But here as well the = use case benefit has to exist.  Nobody wants to be forced into it if i= t’s unnecessary added complexity.

 

My 2 1/2 cents 

 

Regards,

 

Gyan Mishra

Verizon Communications 

Cell- 301 502-1347

 

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

I don't think so. 

 

In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to= MTU to make sure real customer packets can go through or to detect and dia= gnose MTU issues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient.&= nbsp;

 

Wrong tree :) 

 

Cheers,

R.

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net> wrote:

 

On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said >

 

Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a= real problem ?

 

Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed ou= t before, its inefficient encoding.

 

srihari…

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 16:37:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_ABFDC315-A7F5-4564-9AD1-0B84124EC3DF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4BEC5E55-9C87-419D-9EC7-25EEE7C74C54" --Apple-Mail=_4BEC5E55-9C87-419D-9EC7-25EEE7C74C54 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Ron, Doesn't ISIS require a quad octet / 32 bit / IPv4 address for it's = router ID? So you can't really build an ipv4 'free' network. Not 100% anyway. Andy > On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Ron Bonica = wrote: >=20 > Hello Gyan, > =20 > Amplifying what you have said=E2=80=A6.. > =20 > There is no reason why SR-MPLS shouldn=E2=80=99t work over an IPv6 = only infrastructure. So long as every node is MPLS capable, SR-MPLS = should not require IPv4 to be enabled. > =20 > = Ron > =20 > =20 > =20 > Juniper Business Use Only > From: Gyan Mishra >=20 > Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 3:20 AM > To: Robert Raszuk > > Cc: Srihari Sangli >; = SPRING WG List >; 6man@ietf.org = ; Zafar Ali (zali) >; Rob Shakir >; Ron Bonica >; Tarek Saad > > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > =20 > As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls networks I think = our traditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D will be around = for a very very long time as is IPv4 if not longer. > =20 > Most all service provider cores run greater then or equal to MTU 9000 = mpls cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked on plus edge = overhead from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general making the = core the maximum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is = generally done out in the field. > =20 > So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is really a non = issue for=20 > most operators. > =20 > =46rom reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is = two fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA = tunnel so end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel = head end SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH = insertions occurrence on intermediate nodes. I have not read through = the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP = extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS = FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not = sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify = that use case for me. Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what = is the use case or reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99s for = special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together. Please clarify. > =20 > I do agree with some of the other operators on the marketing hype and = push for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service provider as goes the = mantra ..=E2=80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix = it..leave it alone=E2=80=9D and I think you can definitely say that for = MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for service providers since the 90=E2=80=99= s ever since ATM and frame relay were put to rest so I don=E2=80=99t = think that it=E2=80=99s going away any time soon. > =20 > I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state of affairs for = vendors to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and support of = MPLS as that would really pigeon hole all operators into one technology = which does not fit the bill for every use case out there. > =20 > The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and forcing operators = to go with SRv6 is a wrong move for vendors and would really limit = operators with flexibility to chose based on their use case to stay with = traditional mpls or go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with = their unique use case warrants.. > =20 > I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and the = industry as yet another tool in our operator =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80= =9D to use as we see fit or not use but not be forced into it. > =20 > There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from existing = LDP and the downside of having state maintained in the core is not a = downside as the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is = no savings in pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D= and ditching LDP. =20 > =20 > I think the major use case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE = feature for L3 VPNs steering without adding complexity of adding ibgp = loopback egress PE FEC next hop to traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic. = That is a unique use case and not every major service provider has that = requirement so if you don=E2=80=99t their really is no need to jump on = the SR band wagon and you can stay put with the tried and true mpls that = has been around for decades and is not going away any time soon. > =20 > SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case that could serve = for MPLS core replacement or on the public internet or for enterprise = network traffic engineering of flows between data centers or access to = data center and an alternative to SD WAN application based routing = solutions. But here as well the use case benefit has to exist. Nobody = wants to be forced into it if it=E2=80=99s unnecessary added complexity. > =20 > My 2 1/2 cents=20 > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Gyan Mishra > Verizon Communications=20 > Cell- 301 502-1347 > =20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: >=20 > I don't think so.=20 > =20 > In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure = real customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU = issues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient.=20 > =20 > Wrong tree :)=20 > =20 > Cheers, > R. > =20 > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli > wrote: > =20 > On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net = said > > =20 > Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real problem ? > =20 > Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its inefficient = encoding. > =20 > srihari=E2=80=A6 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring = --------------------------------------------------------------------= > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 = > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail=_4BEC5E55-9C87-419D-9EC7-25EEE7C74C54 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Ron,

Doesn't ISIS require a quad octet / 32 bit / IPv4 address for = it's router ID?

So you can't really build an ipv4 'free' network.   Not = 100% anyway.

Andy



On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Ron Bonica = <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

Hello = Gyan,
 
Amplifying = what you have said=E2=80=A6..
 
There is no reason why SR-MPLS = shouldn=E2=80=99t work over an IPv6 only infrastructure. So long as = every node is MPLS capable, SR-MPLS should not require IPv4 to be = enabled.
 
          &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;      Ron
 
 
 
Juniper Business Use = Only
From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> 
Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 = 3:20 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net>; = SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Ron = Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond = SRv6.
 
As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls = networks I think our traditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D = will be around for a very very long time as is IPv4 if not longer.
 
Most all service provider cores run greater then or equal to = MTU 9000 mpls cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked on = plus edge overhead from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general = making  the core the maximum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at = 9216 is what is generally done out in the field.
 
So for SRv6 support of multiple or many = EH insertions is really a non issue for 
most operators.
 
=46rom reading through all the discussion threads the SR = insertion is two fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or = remote LFA tunnel so end up requiring double EH insertions on the = Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 source node and then second scenario = being a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermediate nodes.  I = have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but = since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not = the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an = additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for = Ti-LFA.  Can someone clarify that use case for me.  Also the = EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or reason for = that.  My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitching = SRv6 domains together.  Please clarify.
 
I do agree with some of the other = operators on the marketing hype and push for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for = every service provider as goes the mantra ..=E2=80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not = broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix it..leave it alone=E2=80=9D and I think = you can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for = service providers since the 90=E2=80=99s ever since ATM and frame relay = were put to rest so I don=E2=80=99t think that it=E2=80=99s going away = any time soon.
 
I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state of = affairs for vendors to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and = support of MPLS as that would really pigeon hole all operators into one = technology which does not fit the bill for every use case out there.
 
The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support = for IPv6 and forcing operators to go with SRv6 is a wrong move for = vendors and would really limit operators with flexibility to chose based = on their use case to stay with traditional mpls or go with with SR-MPLS = or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use case warrants..
 
I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be = marketed by vendors and the industry as yet another tool in our operator = =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80=9D to use as we see fit or not use but not = be forced into it.
 
There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from = existing LDP and the downside of having state maintained in the core is = not a downside as the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so = their is no savings in pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS = =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D and ditching LDP.   
 
I think the major use case for SR-MPLS = and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE feature for L3 VPNs steering without = adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback egress PE FEC next hop to = traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic.  That is a unique use case and not = every major service provider has that requirement so if you don=E2=80=99t = their really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and you can stay = put with the tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and is = not going away any time soon.
 
SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case that = could serve for MPLS core replacement or on the public internet or for = enterprise network traffic engineering of flows between data centers or = access to data center and an alternative to SD WAN application based = routing solutions.  But here as well the use case benefit has to = exist.  Nobody wants to be forced into it if it=E2=80=99s = unnecessary added complexity.
 
My 2 1/2 cents 
 
Regards,
 
Gyan Mishra
Verizon = Communications 
Cell- 301 502-1347
 
Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk = <robert@raszuk.net> = wrote:

I don't think so. 
 
In OAM packets are on purpose made huge = - even up to MTU to make sure real customer packets can go through or to = detect and diagnose MTU issues. So adding SRH to it is nothing one can = call inefficient. 
 
Wrong tree :) 
 
Cheers,
R.
 
On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at = 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net> wrote:
 
On = 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said >
 
Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real = problem ?
 
Thanks = for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its inefficient = encoding.
 
srihari=E2=80=A6
=
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRBEhm-p-13R for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 10:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C11D31208B5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 10:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.29] (178-9-170.dynamic.cyta.gr [178.59.9.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8D57B8654C; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 19:54:04 +0200 (CEST) To: "Voyer, Daniel" , Dirk Steinberg , Robert Raszuk , SPRING WG List References: From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <34a3c530-78a5-416d-776f-1aad9bbfdb4b@si6networks.com> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 20:19:44 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 18:00:01 -0000 On 6/9/19 22:13, Voyer, Daniel wrote: > I also agree 100% with Robert and Dirk. > [...] > > Second – facts: please do click the link and check the timeline: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header/and > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bashandy-isis-srv6-extensions/, etc… > >   > > That’s right, for SRH its 5 years, which means 15 IETF meetings with few > 1000’s of replies and is about to become RFC. ISIS/SRv6 its 12 IETF > meetings, about to go last call … Side comment: time that has elapsed since a document was first published does not necessarily relate on maturity. It may also mean that the work was stalled because there were issues to be solved, it was hard to get consensus on, etc. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Sep 9 11:00:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F06120967; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:00:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRwbBkK6I51C; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com [208.84.65.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDE0C1208F5; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108156.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id x89Hxb2P000537; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 11:00:22 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=w1dbu7+gas9OZM2qZ98FfgMx5Z6ZhTfD2n9mlz5KpDk=; b=MAwLZrH2L72JJfmzCM/0NAvRkvIpRrEHbls4HvkduCU/F0GQceFlJNT+tlDMfXKR6N7O pYJKiXYEIO4sMZXXPrIozU5XBneDdbF8+mdfkeKcBvyqMXpke4kFZ7+YqoaE7Ckyrhpl 6o95TfOhqvsKiTdfAWD4Avj7VB7WIuEYrX0M3AaMku/07267fWTjjdtcDf/AT5A3CQ8f 2byypKhw692Sfp+ON7wTwHcPm1/hzREmvJzI7E67yGu/RxwhOXlu3f0xzkIpXOC2cdMk WA+RmPYqxxIiDPihHUprKq97Nk7/w6FARFqY18wfA+Ibfy2VnVFmt5pbUwyt6NQqli/C Ow== Received: from nam04-co1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam04lp2059.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.45.59]) by mx0a-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2uvbjnbdtd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 09 Sep 2019 11:00:22 -0700 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=K4aRLNdX/Ry2INQNd1oxY3T70PlYnzDdDq+IQi+uAtSX0DRs2i9851JnPQIljU2bUtx59DKWeVtO4jNan5Zc20HPsNi8bFcSq/GvS6v7FGdf75tzY2kLotw/BVmkeXlxDYSAODQESPr1O40KQb2Br95X0JWK3TkHfGDiE7fJWYIoqfVoXcKb0RKgCWSLCVBjidz1NEUnUYloAgS+GGmJnVrBXEG2rVbMHiMFQI2+k8LxEsAaJPzKiWWFU0LCHGatrHvI36FkCl5FrvUmCNBC1WSfn1lrx3XrMJzF5OivPqag/CFKixYrw26HbWVPxVuaypeZScg20LVWsR1YdEDHKQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=w1dbu7+gas9OZM2qZ98FfgMx5Z6ZhTfD2n9mlz5KpDk=; b=nH+KmmsNJJ7AGVGPFkRot77xNfk5xN36FvLexKkguonqETPdXS7+X9zdY1D2q49zBZlQwNxLGyM8UYpMoz+yJhpHliDwQcAwLzSCZe+Yfm+8D8dmq3z5VxBSX/EKiBj0cBUZu6eNoMMwNSbd7aBssngD+9Tm+OJGZ1EYyJsSFitJxnZ4nJlJx9ot6kRlFl42VJ5BYRLuWDksIGF6xvoqeNNJu7yBSd+WTG4w1RjnLJKLH7Qa1YYOroR7En56ziOJb97fG0TmnHfHHV9/Aogr9HFyoba3ReK8Xc8kuxkktqwRcRv7ObrIH1TvODLuqFa+l62rkfqQvvskZaNe2qMCrA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=juniper.net; dkim=pass header.d=juniper.net; arc=none Received: from BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.177.185.144) by BYAPR05MB5717.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.177.187.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2263.6; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 18:00:21 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f4f2:f284:d49a:890a]) by BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f4f2:f284:d49a:890a%4]) with mapi id 15.20.2263.005; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 18:00:21 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: "Joel M. 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LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0K From nobody Mon Sep 9 16:49:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33EFA120180; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:49:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1M2ACS3HFaBI; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1962412010E; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.107] (unknown [62.74.25.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 046E8863E0; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 01:49:29 +0200 (CEST) To: Michael Richardson , spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org References: <0d3df64e-d596-1cac-eb3d-e08a6e1151ea@si6networks.com> <66f1195d-3e71-71d8-9304-1b5e76211c5b@si6networks.com> <17262_1567694774_5D711FB6_17262_144_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9FB@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <357ceb44-5ef4-a5e6-4cb0-087792c9daf5@si6networks.com> <28835.1567943715@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 21:31:46 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <28835.1567943715@dooku.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] IPv6 EH-insertion (Re: Spirit and Letter of the Law (was: Question about SRv6 Insert function)) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 23:49:35 -0000 On 8/9/19 14:55, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Fernando Gont wrote: > >> > >> Why do these kind of arguments emerge right now instead of 5 years > >> ago? We left the “problem “ for 5 years? And suddenly we notice them? > >> How interesting. > > > One possibility: All this kind of arguments did emerge a long time ago > > -- NAmely, when working on rfc2460bis, which eventually became > > RFC8200. As a results of the problems associated with EH-insertion, > > there was IETF consensus to explicitly ban it in RFC8200. Maybe some > > 6man'ers were not subscribed to the spring wg list, were quite > > surprised to see documents relying on EH-insertion (one ins spring, and > > another, indirectly, in lsr), and hence decided to comment. > > I would suggest that the result was slightly different. > > We decided in RFC8200 that EH-insertion by random devices for randomly > defined purposes was banned. > > That if a device/operator needed to do that, that they ought to use IPIP > insertion. We failed to actually follow through with RFC8504 to make > it possible to actually use IPIP in a general case. > > What I think that we wound up in RFC8200, and I think that it was > intentionally very subtly under-stated by the AD at the time, was that any > IETF Specification could in effect make any rule it wanted, and it > would be subject to IETF Last Call and IESG review. Yeah, that's IETF process, right? You can make any rule that you want (assuming you do it within a wg with the proper scope), and you get wg review and ietf-wide review. No new here. And I don't know why the rules should be any different for eh-insertion. > So what we banned was EH-insertion by vendors or operators without > significant (standards-level) thought as to applicability. Huh? EH insertion is banned. If you want to violate that, you have to publish a spec that updates RFC8200. Either to remove the corresponding text in RFC8200, or at least to include an "UPdates: RFC8200" tag, such that folks that read RFC8200 know what are the excemptions to the rule. > We are now here, > we are supposed to be discussing if this use case, along with it's > applicability, warant a reasonable exception. I assume by "we" you mean IETF. Because this doesn't look like a minor modification to IPv6. Hence, that would be out of scope for 6man. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Sep 9 16:51:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34527120020; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:51:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e9Q3KLPu05jm; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CE8612004F; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.107] (unknown [62.74.25.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9BD7E86494; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 01:51:32 +0200 (CEST) To: Gyan Mishra , Xiejingrong Cc: Robert Raszuk , spring , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> <5d73cf59.1c69fb81.d28d5.322eSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <206D05FA-C8FE-43FB-B232-08D5E9421FB9@gmail.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 23:40:52 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <206D05FA-C8FE-43FB-B232-08D5E9421FB9@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 23:51:48 -0000 Hello, Gyan, On 7/9/19 19:58, Gyan Mishra wrote: [...] > > I think when the SRv6 programming RFCs were written that violated the > 6man WG RFC 8200 with EH only being allowed by the source node to insert > EH and no other node when Spring WG decided to make this a requirement > for SRv6 functionality they should have asked for 6man WG consensus > approval and at that time RFC 8200 could have been updated to allow this > one exception for EH for SR insertion by and node along the path. >  Unfortunately this was not done that way from the beginning and now we > are trying to fix what should have been fixed from the beginning. The above is incorrect. EH insertion *was* discussed in 6man. And the text that explicitly banned EH insertion was added in response to the proponents of EH-insertion claiming that RFC2460 was ambiguous in this respect. We are not trying to fix anything. You cannot fix what's not broken. If anything, folks are asking for a (major) modification in IPv6 -- with the proposal failing to answer trivial questions such as "What problem are we trying to solve?" and "Why are not we solving the problem in standards-compliant ways?". Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Sep 9 16:52:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4348F120837 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:51:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kKKJJCYJABmE for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29D55120884 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.107] (unknown [62.74.25.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 59DB8864DF; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 01:51:48 +0200 (CEST) To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Sander Steffann , Andrew Alston Cc: Rob Shakir , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Shraddha Hegde References: <6B60DF69-4F15-412F-82CD-1ADD5CC68469@cisco.com> <5E3BE049-9BB8-4B05-8C9D-714FAC2B773B@liquidtelecom.com> <19F2D959-8B62-4B5C-9DAB-E4C4E83248F2@steffann.nl> <57C6EF54-991B-4AAE-924B-8639551967B4@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 23:42:30 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <57C6EF54-991B-4AAE-924B-8639551967B4@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 23:52:00 -0000 On 7/9/19 20:10, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: [....] > > Rough consensus and running code... But we work by rough consensus. > > Running code that explicitly goes against consensus is no IETF standard > at al. > >   > > [ZA] Please refer to section 3 of SRv6 deployment > draft, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01#section-3. It > provides some details on the *Significant industry collaboration that > led to SRv6 standardization. SRv6 standardization went through* the > rigorous IETF process (some may say much more rigorous than typically > done at IETF).  The rigurous IETF process says that you cannot do EH insertion. And you are insisting in circumventing that process. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Mon Sep 9 16:52:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39C9120891; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:52:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iKgqopofbCON; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC5AB120823; Mon, 9 Sep 2019 16:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.107] (unknown [62.74.25.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AA69C86517; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 01:52:09 +0200 (CEST) To: Alexandre Petrescu , Robert Raszuk , Mark Smith , Tom Herbert Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAE9362F9@dggemm529-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <3d6df252-f92a-2269-5abf-18331d377781@si6networks.com> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 23:50:07 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] IPv4 EH proposal X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 23:52:19 -0000 On 9/9/19 14:07, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > Le 07/09/2019 à 13:32, Robert Raszuk a écrit : >> /* Adjusting the subject to reflect the topic */ >> >> Ok ... I looked at the new wave of mails in wrong order :)  >> >> I like this proposal:  >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-herbert-ipv4-eh-01  >> >> And have absolutely nothing against progressing it further - it looks >> on the surface to be more efficient then sr-mpls over IP - but how >> many bits are we saving needs to be calculated to state if cost of >> introducing new encoding justifies the additional control plane, >> protocol and platform efforts >> >> In fact if we would get to the consensus of using SRH with SID & BSID >> to be of fixed 20 bits it can reuse a lot of mechanism build for >> sr-mpls in any commercial router. >> >>  It is just a bit amazing that insertion of EHs into IPv4 would be >> less problematic that in the case of IPv6 :) Maybe due to allowed >> fragmentation.  >> >> As to the host dropping packets due to unknown protocol - let's >> observe that SR domain would clean such EH before passing packets >> further.  >> >> Many thx, >> R. > > When I learned IPv4 existed it was already very late to suggest anything > to it.  I learned that many things were designed into it at its origin, > but few things got actually deployed. > > The example of loose source route, and strict source route, was given as > an example that people tried to do but it never worked at scale.  So it > got filtered and disappeared. SSR and LSR have well known security implications -- hence the filtering. SImilarly, RHT0 was obsoleted for the same reason. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Sep 10 03:14:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA251200DF; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 03:14:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FORGED_HOTMAIL_RCVD2=0.874, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hotmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com 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+0000 From: James Guichard To: Sander Steffann , "Zafar Ali (zali)" CC: Rob Shakir , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Shraddha Hegde , Andrew Alston Thread-Topic: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) 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13:30:16 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: James Guichard , Sander Steffann , "Zafar Ali (zali)" CC: Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , Shraddha Hegde , Andrew Alston Thread-Topic: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) 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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:30:28 -0000 --_000_BL0PR05MB54584698476A98D22094EA11AEB60BL0PR05MB5458namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim, Please accept this comment in the spirit which it is intended, between two = old friends. It doesn't matter if there are a million existing SRv6 deployments. The fol= lowing is undeniable: * SRv6 is not nearly so close to standardization as some would claim. I= f it were, last week's heated email exchanges would not have occurred * Some customers have identified a need that SRv6+ satisfies and SRv6 d= oes not So, why would anyone want to suppress the new work. I have heard the follow= ing arguments: 1. New work would overtax the WG 2. A new solution would confuse the market place The first argument is dubious. We are talking about a few very short docume= nts that are careful never to stray from IPv6 orthodoxy. As always, partici= pation is voluntary. The second argument is downright suspicious. Network operators are intellig= ent people who are not easily confused. The marketplace doesn't need to be protected from new solutions. Those who = claim that it does may want to explain why. Ro= n Juniper Business Use Only From: James Guichard Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 8:59 AM To: Sander Steffann ; Zafar Ali (zali) Cc: Rob Shakir ; Ron Bonica ; SPRING= WG List ; Shraddha Hegde ; Andrew A= lston Subject: RE: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG= (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) I don't think anyone is trying to make themselves look superior. Presumably= the IETF wants to build technologies that are actually deployed in real ne= tworks - it is clear that there are multiple publicly announced SRv6 deploy= ments (I can think of at least 5) and from what I can see from the numerous= email threads there are several operators stating that SRv6 satisfies thei= r needs (and this is based on real deployment knowledge not theoretical tec= hnical purity) and no other additional encapsulation technique is necessary= . My .2c Jim From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Sander Steffann Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2019 1:22 PM To: Zafar Ali (zali) > Cc: Rob Shakir >; Ron Bonica >; SPRING WG List >; Shraddha Hegde >; Andrew Alston > Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG= (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) [ZA] Please refer to section 3 of SRv6 deployment draft, https://tools.ietf= .org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01#section-3. It provides some details on= the Significant industry collaboration that led to SRv6 standardization. S= Rv6 standardization went through the rigorous IETF process (some may say mu= ch more rigorous than typically done at IETF). Throwing massive resources at something, sending many emails and creating m= any tickets don't represent "significant industry collaboration". They can = equally represent ratholing, endless discussions and massive disagreement. Stop trying to make yourself look superior. That has no place in the IETF. = Statement like that are pathetic in my view. Please focus on technical exce= llence instead. Cheers, Sander --_000_BL0PR05MB54584698476A98D22094EA11AEB60BL0PR05MB5458namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jim,

 

Please accept this comment in the spirit which it is= intended, between two old friends.

 

It doesn’t matter if there are a million exist= ing SRv6 deployments. The following is undeniable:

 

  • SRv6 is not nearly so close to standardization as some would claim. I= f it were, last week’s heated email exchanges would not have occurred
  • Some customers have identified a need that SRv6+ = satisfies and SRv6 does not

 

So, why would anyone want to suppress the new work. = I have heard the following arguments:

 

  1. New work would overtax the WG
  2. A new solution wou= ld confuse the market place

 

The first argument is dubious. We are talking about = a few very short documents that are careful never to stray from IPv6 orthod= oxy. As always, participation is voluntary.

 

The second argument is downright suspicious. Network= operators are intelligent people who are not easily confused.

 

The marketplace doesn’t need to be protected f= rom new solutions. Those who claim that it does may want to explain why.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp; Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@fut= urewei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 8:59 AM
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Zafar Ali (zali) <= ;zali@cisco.com>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juni= per.net>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; Shraddha Hegde <shr= addha@juniper.net>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>= ;
Subject: RE: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Sp= ring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

I don’t think anyone is trying to make themsel= ves look superior. Presumably the IETF wants to build technologies that are= actually deployed in real networks – it is clear that there are mult= iple publicly announced SRv6 deployments (I can think of at least 5) and from what I can see from the numerous email threa= ds there are several operators stating that SRv6 satisfies their needs (and= this is based on real deployment knowledge not theoretical technical purit= y) and no other additional encapsulation technique is necessary.

 

My .2c

 

Jim

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sander Steffann
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2019 1:22 PM
To: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisc= o.com>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.= com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@= juniper.net>; SPRING WG List <= spring@ietf.org>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; Andrew Alston <Andre= w.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Sp= ring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

 

[ZA] Please refer to section 3 of SRv6 deployment draft, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsush= ima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01#section-3. It provides some details on the Significant industry collabor= ation that led to SRv6 standardization. SRv6 standardization went through the rigorous IETF process (some may say much more rigorous than typically done at IETF).  

 

Throwing massive resources at something, sending man= y emails and creating many tickets don't represent "significant indust= ry collaboration". They can equally represent ratholing, endless discu= ssions and massive disagreement.

 

Stop trying to make yourself look superior. That has= no place in the IETF. Statement like that are pathetic in my view. Pl= ease focus on technical excellence instead.

 

Cheers,

Sander

 

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[60.108.130.56]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d5sm5571243pfn.160.2019.09.10.07.23.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-72545D64-6589-4670-8FCC-12C61EC5591C Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Satoru Matsushima X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 23:23:39 +0900 Cc: James Guichard , Sander Steffann , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , Shraddha Hegde , Andrew Alston Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4D8B0875-0D47-47ED-9B0A-08D8310601B9@gmail.com> References: <6B60DF69-4F15-412F-82CD-1ADD5CC68469@cisco.com> <5E3BE049-9BB8-4B05-8C9D-714FAC2B773B@liquidtelecom.com> <19F2D959-8B62-4B5C-9DAB-E4C4E83248F2@steffann.nl> <57C6EF54-991B-4AAE-924B-8639551967B4@cisco.com> To: Ron Bonica Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:23:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail-72545D64-6589-4670-8FCC-12C61EC5591C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron, > SRv6 is not nearly so close to standardization as some would claim. If it w= ere, last week=E2=80=99s heated email exchanges would not have occurred It=E2=80=99s not true. All discussions didn=E2=80=99t attribute to SRH encap= itself. > Some customers have identified a need that SRv6+ satisfies and SRv6 does n= ot As one of your customers, I never claim that thing. --satoru 2019/09/10 22:30=E3=80=81Ron Bonica = =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: > Jim, > =20 > Please accept this comment in the spirit which it is intended, between two= old friends. > =20 > It doesn=E2=80=99t matter if there are a million existing SRv6 deployments= . The following is undeniable: > =20 > SRv6 is not nearly so close to standardization as some would claim. If it w= ere, last week=E2=80=99s heated email exchanges would not have occurred > Some customers have identified a need that SRv6+ satisfies and SRv6 does n= ot > =20 > So, why would anyone want to suppress the new work. I have heard the follo= wing arguments: > =20 > New work would overtax the WG > A new solution would confuse the market place > =20 > The first argument is dubious. We are talking about a few very short docum= ents that are careful never to stray from IPv6 orthodoxy. As always, partici= pation is voluntary. > =20 > The second argument is downright suspicious. Network operators are intelli= gent people who are not easily confused. > =20 > The marketplace doesn=E2=80=99t need to be protected from new solutions. T= hose who claim that it does may want to explain why. > =20 > R= on > =20 > =20 > Juniper Business Use Only > From: James Guichard =20 > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 8:59 AM > To: Sander Steffann ; Zafar Ali (zali) > Cc: Rob Shakir ; Ron Bonica ; SPRIN= G WG List ; Shraddha Hegde ; Andrew A= lston > Subject: RE: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring W= G (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) > =20 > I don=E2=80=99t think anyone is trying to make themselves look superior. P= resumably the IETF wants to build technologies that are actually deployed in= real networks =E2=80=93 it is clear that there are multiple publicly announ= ced SRv6 deployments (I can think of at least 5) and from what I can see fro= m the numerous email threads there are several operators stating that SRv6 s= atisfies their needs (and this is based on real deployment knowledge not the= oretical technical purity) and no other additional encapsulation technique i= s necessary. > =20 > My .2c > =20 > Jim > =20 > From: spring On Behalf Of Sander Steffann > Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2019 1:22 PM > To: Zafar Ali (zali) > Cc: Rob Shakir ; Ron Bonica ; SPRIN= G WG List ; Shraddha Hegde ; Andrew A= lston > Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring W= G (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) > =20 > =20 > [ZA] Please refer to section 3 of SRv6 deployment draft, https://tools.iet= f.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01#section-3. It p= rovides some details on the Significant industry collaboration that led to S= Rv6 standardization. SRv6 standardization went through the rigorous IETF pro= cess (some may say much more rigorous than typically done at IETF). =20 > =20 > Throwing massive resources at something, sending many emails and creating m= any tickets don't represent "significant industry collaboration". They can e= qually represent ratholing, endless discussions and massive disagreement. > =20 > Stop trying to make yourself look superior. That has no place in the IETF.= Statement like that are pathetic in my view. Please focus on technical exce= llence instead. > =20 > Cheers, > Sander > =20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-72545D64-6589-4670-8FCC-12C61EC5591C Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron,

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PHAgY2xhc3M9Im1zaXBmb290ZXIzMGIzZDUzOCIgYWxpZ249ImNlbnRlciIgc3R5bGU9Im1zby1t YXJnaW4tdG9wLWFsdDowY207bWFyZ2luLXJpZ2h0OjBjbTttYXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjBjbTttYXJn aW4tbGVmdDozNi4wcHQ7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTouMDAwMXB0O3RleHQtYWxpZ246Y2VudGVyIj4N CjxzcGFuIGxhbmc9IkVOLVVTIiBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1zaXplOjcuMHB0O2NvbG9yOmJsYWNrIj5K dW5pcGVyIEJ1c2luZXNzIFVzZSBPbmx5PC9zcGFuPjxzcGFuIGxhbmc9IkVOLVVTIj48bzpwPjwv bzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_057AE440D7FB4B11A026749A131C9995ciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 08:35:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B1EF1201AA for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:35:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WegGPfBUZD22 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 375BF12089F for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4AE4C; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:35:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1568129707; bh=XTkNIPy83lIJW2WA4rX LA+oppog3o7EAyi5vj3ydUDo=; b=lIN5E/m+0Ht0Ef3dVVCWcSV7mbZSH1nsNiz Lkp1uqTzenEdUOAgW0V4+7fOrxaFLe9Z53YCw4d4DqPDDGl1n6JY33hIQ1I2RxU+ PVlV+fgIOdUvXwEdRzSuEBlOl/WoSfKk5fgPSdpaIUtE23//qhAyAF2hPA6tf3ty EoWR2Rhw= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id A-BKRPRLMnut; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:35:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3BC5C4B; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:35:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <882D4DC5-B2B8-4211-8D16-63427FF9A667@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E75ACBB0-86F4-4B7D-8E1A-E6A7607BFA09"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:35:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: Satoru Matsushima References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:35:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E75ACBB0-86F4-4B7D-8E1A-E6A7607BFA09 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, > If you say you are an operator, and ask us to disclose on where, for = what, scale and use case, please describe yours at first in very detail. ISP in The Netherlands, between 50k and 100k customers three = datacenters, multiple interconnect locations, currently using MPLS for = L2VPN (as little as possible), L3VPN, mVPN (mostly for streaming media = distribution). Nothing fancy. I'd love to use SR with plain IPv6 as one = step towards the ultimate goal of running the network as simply as = possible (i.e. just IPv6) while still having the possibility to steer = traffic with as little complications as possible, keeping it easy to = learn, easy to understand by NOC engineers, easy to debug and easy to = adjust. KISS. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_E75ACBB0-86F4-4B7D-8E1A-E6A7607BFA09 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VC3eloaasvH0nE1oC0DsP4kE7kFAl13wqkACgkQoC0DsP4k E7lCOAgAjHJv73f2vr7xMimC/aTXfdxxkNhPpgdeh7kIc1fVWz8LehWbX2sPDMmf ha4H0wKPOMkWl1hgkZSdj6KIOS8fMdIA7h3Rl4B0XqvE8UTRMqrkmrpXbc01jsHE M693Yq3UiF6XoydhH8Kv/POFFzu14W27B2MEHeI/7k5V7LDUNEStNh27hfL8Kmnp L+Gq69QG6Y+09nI2450ktRtb2uWNMjRfJcUksIunfoDjWaaFb22sFREXj1GUoX+1 p5XWXv8swfB/CdvDGp4Ok0hz33olt0FAHnYOPZ1AOJT6XcjTcLAqqgaV3eRlDAmo VO0lOg1GC4LmDp6ZMVS3SUFAhsRGbg== =FVZ4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E75ACBB0-86F4-4B7D-8E1A-E6A7607BFA09-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 08:41:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DC212012D for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JbRyuHEoODF6 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52a.google.com (mail-ed1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6FF81201CE for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id y91so17541095ede.9 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:41:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sVSIfPtHCHXm2L7jsN1Wkr2zyWGKD0FZznsHhCe2/qM=; b=DoWVyEdpcEhBAPvQ7jJKXD5i9h+5rokbip7uShoE8JR2fOj/Pjym5AtB0prsR/UxO7 4KsGZoh39nZOn+oFRPEp6O2R5mfR7UaevUm19BaD/aCVqjUk2sXdMqP0cjyOT0/QPtci 3JUtbLgwS6viwpA44Ae6Tz0aOYYhf4sOFCSazJEkUoM+IJpo2/T+E8gxZ8vzE4PmjQl9 zQ/UnHNA+bf99e41erwnf6WbsSrpT3+vrYKag98k1pmVkJJS2t4pFMtZlZokctQ/s3Yh /GMxvKoXNNL0beg/MIwibnp2OaKTWmz/KkX2YSq23xN008nlI+uxpzvHXwlCEpTbcv+I oESQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sVSIfPtHCHXm2L7jsN1Wkr2zyWGKD0FZznsHhCe2/qM=; b=ZBYJvgHM2kUfi/NnTeTt2ltFsrCmbQO/phV0FIutkY2of3AObylNFNHjJB+HJvetcO SSYKaUEHb8a7+NNjEE6nhcapoBwnJkkX3iU01zjkcNhKainIkwEVthczEhhWGCu/plKM ZeH0dM78fxBFNnYcJG8/hf4FC8MGGprprxeJX71xAarKoDRwzffJSTk+rMMSlkR9tpSe AyeRF49raf6JvGdRPt7YPq2/9SAcYj1imc6SPZrAYioSfLBKBNX797bbxuZniR5nfXZd Pm42J4EFjkmhwUILFlWnc5iN5Ijw+Qv7eELkUuqLsgLkA6efY/HSwQQLtcr30O94MfeO +4iQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXGYJsYldu7FrIDC9jiw/HwJ7FZ0vSGBNnuvF+fK/PWYUkIHI8/ 4fjYTJLOPhrvszS0UDqz8bJx6eMoXWimQY/UM7Yckw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw2Xh6EsFycGmp4wES9gc4StLTjICHdohK0xXTrwWDWucre8sPuAZwayBuAw17NKOzvxaGPxrIW5oOAWsypqzo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:148c:: with SMTP id e12mr31699879edv.62.1568130066148; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:41:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:40:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Regaining Focus on SRv6 and SRv6+ X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:41:11 -0000 On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 8:16 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > >> In any case, I don't believe option number space being exhausted is why = TLVs are in SRV6 (if it was a problem, we'd want a general solution instead= of point solution just for SRV6). The reasons why TLVs were need in SRV6, = as opposed to using DO or HBH, are unclear to me. I think it's some feeling= that there are options inherent to the SID list, it makes it easier to ign= ore options, and maybe some amount of "not invented here" > > > I think it is useful to keep new functionality under one type - if for no= thing else then for easy filtering on the domian egress and ingress. > > If you split this into N EH types then further nest some functions even f= urther it becomes very difficult by the operator to filter it. > > To your very last point - if getting new EH type takes over 5 years - sor= ry but this is not a velocity any operator can accept in order to make his = service better then competition the new paradigm of easily programmable dat= a plane. > Robert, You might want to consider the possibility that the length of time it takes to standardize a protocol is proportional to its complexity and divergence from existing standards. I believe that was the case of SRH judging by the long discussion of it in 6man where much of that was focused on peripheral functionality like the aforementioned TLVs as well as trying to nail down the mutability requirements of the protocol. Tom > Many thx, > Robert. > > > > > > > From nobody Tue Sep 10 08:48:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF49C120043 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:48:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fM9kSoXFbhUb for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 815131201C6 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 122E34B; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:48:40 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1568130517; bh=z8mV+tFYvU3R9wWRY7q oSfUvOpo8LiqotHfrUTm1+KE=; b=bpXU+X6HTMtAsZYZTLLpFKHk2D1kj5YYEFb 8hPt0oPtEpAj3W8D7fDEfwjM8N0sbpqkbMeyrhCNoFL0ZjYez5Gsb7sURg1XQD+z CsJ9VrmIfEaLXWaPUaow+++Ax+ZSahSOiGBtRbvkVHde7Kof+4ftpGu+UekzIyNP EMc3Ki28= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id H6q_0mT2EYOU; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:48:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D4E23C; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:48:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7E3417B6-2929-4441-8429-1732623A4E45"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:48:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: Robert Raszuk References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 15:48:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7E3417B6-2929-4441-8429-1732623A4E45 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Robert, >> Because many problems are identified in the current work >=20 > Please kindly enumerate technical problems which got identified. It = will be actually very helpful list. >=20 >> It's not needs/requirements, it's mostly the lack of a KISS approach >=20 > Not all vendors are falling into the last "S" category You clearly don't understand the concept of KISS and prefer to call = people stupid because of that=E2=80=A6 Pathetic. >> Please elaborate about the real deployment. Where was it deployed? In = what kind of networks? On what scale? For which use cases? >=20 > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status= -01 >=20 >> I don't like the design of the current solution, and you seem to = suggest that I have to stall work on what I would like until you have = what you would like *. That doesn't work for me. >=20 > No one is stating that. It is your network and you can deploy and = develop anything you like. >=20 > But IETF mission is to make sure you have interoperable services and = so far for all SRv6+ related draft this is all single vendor. Sorry but = linux code does not count. And Cisco is doing exactly the same. I'm just happy that finally someone = is standing up to Cisco in this. I *know* the SRv6+ people have = suggested working on interop. Cisco is the one who refused! So don't = come to me with this "IETF mission is to make sure you have = interoperable services" BS. > So do you think that IETF should support and work on single vendor's = wall garden now ? Very interesting .... No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting = trapped in the SRv6 walled garden. > I think Juniper reps are actually taking a very risky path ... In fact = if IETF would accept the work - even as experimental - they can only = deploy it in single Juniper shops. So those customers with dual or multi = vendor will have no choice but get rid of Juniper gear. I don't care which vendor is behind which proposal. I don't want to get = trapped into one vendor's way of thinking. Especially if I don't like = that way of thinking. I want to have choice. If SRv6+ is successful it = will be implemented by many vendors. A lot of them are still on the = fence whether to support SRv6, SRv6+ or both. Let the operators decide = what we like best, instead of manipulating the IETF to push a single = solution down our throats. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_7E3417B6-2929-4441-8429-1732623A4E45 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VC3eloaasvH0nE1oC0DsP4kE7kFAl13xdQACgkQoC0DsP4k E7n7EQf/ciNVTDmmWL9nWPGbfb81qB7VS+8LPGk0dv4cGIBnNlAcCATiuupm9OJh LX86xyXrvyMnuBe976PKYN1My4iItuBn1QhV0Bpr1VCxTuC0EIPDHn0rMEF3bJKx r4wdP7sF/Sjy9dfJdZ9bC7hhODM8RXs4joATDRqrKJ///17iMnibn/x6f50YttR7 x/ycUlHZZ0u5Ham3Y4z7jTYpOsOHRVnKAk8M3iRuyHC8j8/1DNarImuCFAgDJ0xv TM6exz2Af7Ml7w3QMjvSIX1SAXmE8GjglmFhu1JoKcs2tmI08BfuxTeuHglgFgKY Y5eN25nutMEZ5ydvgdzJoJnjR0RvYA== =chYL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7E3417B6-2929-4441-8429-1732623A4E45-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 09:10:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407DE12021D for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:10:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yQ7sVHHgxTlg for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x829.google.com (mail-qt1-x829.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::829]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85BC61201CE for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x829.google.com with SMTP id l22so21347444qtp.10 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:10:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tnBWIWXXuVJJXt3mAPRMIdcwo5tTsg/bJ+wVdEuAwWE=; b=Fx32abTwadMVze1VjsMcnzfYuYfIoQjKaUPtMVaMCzQn29mSKUGyPVS+C6xnJRxKwN Rb2+YkETqJk2iZ9kW3FVtSsVOLpTlBoVzg4c1dt70cBAGxeZDJhr7KODObzKoIT7/1ci 6yztWIt4zWJwbDB02AunR+Gn6ULoYJ9MnM0WNj4uqQdk9aO1PPAi6ZRtqR7w1Qpill4S vsRpx/gmeisqjMlKUlpE7uv05uWHTEysDqyOzQVjzK+E7gkN7eCE6r441fpjheCvV6fP 8zDY7Lb3CCEjoypZm60tqt1UaATNQKABLxbyxlN8VDEYAUaQ9Y4ORYeLkD008IKOaI47 UR5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tnBWIWXXuVJJXt3mAPRMIdcwo5tTsg/bJ+wVdEuAwWE=; b=bXIeiqJg/Im9MyqHT/MfSDV+PaOKZw7vrD4I/Cwu8EOLfZv04uqWyVL8WFWQLYWi7Z g9nCPtRUMJXe7Vm5YoOwHPd9Q3/r7F4VvSoYqbB9QIYygnhb+J4WJ662W+uFeyaLcOSk R2llnrb8IRbEvheDiej9cTs5hM/amRbHA37m2iYVo9QBZ6B8VM49+Ubxa6RGas8qCTCj F2V3bx3TzuMWvcKZZP9R0v7sW3dL+OcIMawe/KBmRuCYoYwze/rLiUrYeIGQnGdD7r0P sVu8QZO7qckB7RIifsua5o8nkVar/9YujVqljrm1Ik3CQkKe9Iqg51dwSvLLZONa2ZqU uQgw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVGX/rDmzKoB+kxj12+FtlNPf8XhCUxYwlO4CnBWS2LlK6cxxNf hIbuxcXMm9Hj1Pao05DrZmlLtBu7Y7y7b6VgIYgsBA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzec8gL+WIVSHvM/vcQ3/WDP+eE5aLd/wTEfABdPIXgqvQvRxEG+fBPsJlEpE0hoyQ1JYUAfFTtR8sgL8Sc7u4= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9082:: with SMTP id p2mr19165310qvp.197.1568131811381; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:10:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:09:57 +0200 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009431ec0592352353" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:10:14 -0000 --0000000000009431ec0592352353 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Sander, No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting trapped > in the SRv6 walled garden. > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to make sure the WG product is the best possible. So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best counterproductive. It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts which woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services you are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality. Would it make sense ? Kind regards, Robert --0000000000009431ec0592352353 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sander,

=
No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting = trapped in the SRv6 walled garden.

The = way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do not lik= e a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from any solu= tion during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to make s= ure the WG product is the best possible.=C2=A0

So = nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6 pro= cess to take an active part in its standardization.=C2=A0

Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already= shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at = best counterproductive.=C2=A0

It is like now you w= ould be asking to adopt some individual drafts which woke up and defined ne= w data plane and new control plane for services you are running in your net= work - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new funct= ionality.=C2=A0

Would it make sense ?=C2=A0
<= div>
Kind regards,
Robert

--0000000000009431ec0592352353-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 09:21:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819AD12021D for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qzk-_j7qmaUf for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E7F312010D for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 09:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0774C; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:21:14 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1568132472; bh=TBfguIB8ccSlpH5sxbG 1DqW0gVIO9m+8xpq6WZVlA58=; b=MEqWOvViPDQmg+9m0LEDKbuYKprduCuccPi yTWLgfnEq37vyskRH5DuS0Pk5vI48E7ZKz4tHFmLf/+zcDzcIio12ObBXygwgwib qyM/U6hBdtzask9IVYsikAibe1Wsg06TZu4kze5TbmSAo6W/nDgs/XmDBUb5ZkmX gbjRNwQg= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 5nU2--Mcu77d; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:21:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C35D84B; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:21:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F7DDFB53-C7B3-49E1-96DD-C760F2C67B5B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:21:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: Robert Raszuk References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:21:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F7DDFB53-C7B3-49E1-96DD-C760F2C67B5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting = trapped in the SRv6 walled garden. >=20 > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you = do not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing = from any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix = it or to make sure the WG product is the best possible. >=20 > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with = SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. >=20 > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already = shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is = at best counterproductive. No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with = lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using = IPv6 instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport = technologies. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many = knobs and "special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it = will be much harder to work with. > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts = which woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for = services you are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, = L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality. That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6 > Would it make sense ? If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do = those things? Most definitely yes. It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are = added that is a problem here. Progress also include making technology = easier to manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible = to average network engineers. Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is = achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is = nothing left to take away.=E2=80=9D Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_F7DDFB53-C7B3-49E1-96DD-C760F2C67B5B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VC3eloaasvH0nE1oC0DsP4kE7kFAl13zXYACgkQoC0DsP4k E7nGMwgAkrHbvWIEA3tWt6RMbZP170Q7vJI0b3pxzH4LC1H3w5GzOqTBFgEBKvAD Ev5Uhv22oJmchHxvgS3pXTlP0o7YNYUzP7UlbG9Ag61VsqJCQNz9ZlBVEsNKXayv 9kKBP7mUxrbn2105Wwxk8ciMrIMnpi8k3xtRNVQocYJ9udvW7/QJ2SWTNXMIc/fz rmwT1QkkvnGXNm+8+5lrePmXsb1C5LCyEhCUKoQ1PdVUqiOo6V7RezJvQmk1BN50 Wot6F14FHKEoTqLiDAvvA2o7tEBhykkLiY4rS45ppFuOTP+uOA6wgcQBJXOUo0aU bEFLlj9pYd7sA7BSeY9F5/y4QVTotA== =haaj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F7DDFB53-C7B3-49E1-96DD-C760F2C67B5B-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 10:21:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624991201CE for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:21:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vQs6tEuxSbdh for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr70091.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.7.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 382EA120041 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:20:59 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=KljJjaj1+XmLTRS3wUpWFplQ6DMXkE67FVE5/7xAMqGl9cjRNlki87OJ2u+2sUs9wVZDPouQyR+YbhCp3BJPYv5s5TblvHUZjNfAeZst5s2+XLv6+atPULf1Ugr3D5bUHLZXbky8SONZMj4htxO3eQ7+HRu0GxSqejswYcjksHFVf+9NyVVgYlr5MXYV0dhQKKgvzy7iKLbuM7nHHk3XC9aTgf1385tljcL395vKRGuOjbi2PiPAJbj70GjZjwR+D7pEyLfQRA9IUPl/Zc1QITaaLRPOC7bJvY2mvEqEVSDnaFQZf8rOpFa+QaaWJ45Hrz7gKWBnF0EujCFZ1pjyoA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1jtLnaKno5yiwGSf9acsIJ8TyL0vcr/jhdZvVfdoGpo=; b=TlhXRnlddJfnEC006GwM2rUD0f1fZjuWpMQa3Ze7puvy8qglIlX2Vxw6Fy2glTwjZgkJonLyn/oqqWmFPm0yvBQCu+mD65sgSBICQZgV8bLiZUm65tMYV1TSQjeKH4TIei8NpKoxzU7geCV7KnEFE166BZBdGADx+Sa2xAMhxF7J0q3xA8V0aewTuCVIH20jJ/8GHjoVVPzN4Uih9bhYzSQAImwDBEr0F43XQi9IMAlY6L9oxqI6BmJLBxi/XVQYEslgWDmubtmGeDepFkWIyBOk55cm8HSYwPRxAW+aGTzPSGRxpMRLFT7mve+cvQSDOnGS9JQd0XsQSzDrsV0fgA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nokia.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=nokia.com; dkim=pass header.d=nokia.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=1jtLnaKno5yiwGSf9acsIJ8TyL0vcr/jhdZvVfdoGpo=; b=WjGNtLl8PDzyDglCEX9FcxStMgJqWnU2Y3kAxlUXV5kbjd7btKyIB1nW5HHb1KpikKdJbtOhXKaaV3EPRPr4nkYWXEo7lGBdCbVZD37397WlwdEEFdckFc6h++0IkWWy2Xfoe5zr2Bdq5Lx/CKEXlKhZkNfwSZMMazPWUkpye7Q= Received: from AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.88.32) by AM6PR07MB5510.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.89.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2263.13; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:20:56 +0000 Received: from AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fc8c:14c:1673:2cc1]) by AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fc8c:14c:1673:2cc1%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2263.005; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:20:56 +0000 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" To: Sander Steffann , Robert Raszuk CC: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Voyer, Daniel" Thread-Topic: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) Thread-Index: AQHVZ+BWlQ/7lS6hT0u9ckyr4ZdQYKck/CstgAASfgCAAAX3gIAAAyIAgAAyOYA= Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:20:56 +0000 Message-ID: <2E39DE90-B807-4C16-A83D-FA2DDD162EB4@nokia.com> References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: nl-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1d.0.190908 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=wim.henderickx@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [81.82.181.214] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 592b26e3-bb85-4a3c-9c7b-08d736133dd9 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(7168020)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7167020)(7193020); SRVR:AM6PR07MB5510; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR07MB5510: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 01565FED4C x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(366004)(396003)(136003)(39860400002)(346002)(376002)(199004)(189003)(6512007)(58126008)(26005)(54906003)(6436002)(8676002)(2616005)(476003)(446003)(6306002)(6246003)(11346002)(99286004)(110136005)(55236004)(2906002)(186003)(66066001)(6506007)(76176011)(7416002)(5660300002)(229853002)(102836004)(3846002)(6116002)(86362001)(33656002)(14454004)(4326008)(256004)(966005)(316002)(6486002)(91956017)(76116006)(25786009)(36756003)(8936002)(66476007)(81166006)(66556008)(81156014)(64756008)(66946007)(486006)(478600001)(71200400001)(66446008)(71190400001)(7736002)(305945005)(53936002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:AM6PR07MB5510; H:AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nokia.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: Ii5KHSeleChgL/rdxaXrZ3nWOY45am1mta+kdOT/WRyD/otK6N+XmUyAhYCFQsLabhc6GuU7wg/J4jzCnCQehmSP6dAFeGo4dttR5TeqdhLfQPoOkefPnXtDzrughRPfILFUr9a00LPEcqopHChzR9R+cTU5YVYXO3KLgrxa3SCmu9MynLKlbYRmAURFI3NFRv9dUPMt46sZhmG78WUN23hKhQzSA4i2f1/4W6dsKw51q8JU0dT/zrw7EjMxewOucSoQlENmNFU5pybSAwUE083wwZQ358Y1c9YNBFIty0v8Xf7PcJpuvJvNnHRfc7C+4Qw3mbDNW/zZz489UQKPCkhKYC9TS/ptudkUq8w+oqPMHti2BRFpB+3alWqDP8puoCM2+1p4SCZNrPF+uZm/2V3ZfFuVoJD4vxqHbduPnGU= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3372451876BDE84C8E513CA4ED7F1753@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 592b26e3-bb85-4a3c-9c7b-08d736133dd9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Sep 2019 17:20:56.5465 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0YTAllXYh+C+1wg8Qi7hZad1HAs+UHIygtsQC9W7lOCTmTBSjVBccRbyN4/Gke780BlGQ/QuhuuCUjw0ZV39SdV44XVM8GbLxfNa75WIr4Y= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR07MB5510 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) 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Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:33:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:33:43 +0200 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e15cd50592364eee" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:33:56 -0000 --000000000000e15cd50592364eee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Sander, You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are going to make it or as you will need it to be. No one is mandating you to do any network programming or to use multiple TLVs. If you just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs and you are done. If you want to also enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty much identical way regardless if this is SRv6 or SRv6+. I know I am not going to convince you, but just for the record it is worh to note that what get's send on the wire is only the information what you as the vendor need. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be useful for not only you but other operators does not make the solution "complex". Otherwise we will end up with protocol per customer which would be pretty bad I am afraid. See many people say BGP is complex ... and it is the same here - BGP is as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of config. But if you need other address families if you need fancy policy you have all required tools for that on your keyboard. - - - Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further even writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two and you submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been working in open IETF process on any new service for over 5 years now would have to put a lot of development resources on the table to develop data plane and control plane enhancements for essentially subset of functionality at best ? It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limited resources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor based on the RFC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So without huge market demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any vendor who committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support for SRv6+. Thank you, R. On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann wrote: > Hi, > > > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting > trapped in the SRv6 walled garden. > > > > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do > not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from > any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or > to make sure the WG product is the best possible. > > > > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with > SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. > > > > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already > shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at > best counterproductive. > > No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with > lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IPv= 6 > instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport > technologies. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many > knobs and "special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it wi= ll > be much harder to work with. > > > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts whic= h > woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services you > are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and > mVPN+ without any new functionality. > > That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6 > > > Would it make sense ? > > If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do > those things? Most definitely yes. > > It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are > added that is a problem here. Progress also include making technology > easier to manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible = to > average network engineers. > > Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved,= not when > there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away= .=E2=80=9D > > Cheers, > Sander > > --000000000000e15cd50592364eee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Sander,

You keep saying SRv6 is comp= lex. But it is only as complex as you are going to make it or as you will n= eed it to be.=C2=A0

No one is mandating you to do = any network programming or to use multiple TLVs. If you just need to use SR= for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs and you are done. If you want to a= lso enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty much identical way regardless i= f this is SRv6 or SRv6+.=C2=A0

I know I am not goi= ng to convince you, but just for the record it is worh to note that what ge= t's send on the wire is only the information what you as the vendor nee= d. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be useful for not only = you but other operators does not make the solution "complex".=C2= =A0 Otherwise we will end up with protocol per customer which would be pret= ty bad I am afraid.=C2=A0

See many people say BGP = is complex ... and it is the same here - BGP is as complex as you require i= t to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of config. But if you need oth= er address families if you need fancy policy you have all required tools fo= r that on your keyboard.=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it= easy, Further even writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that comple= x - day or two and you submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has be= en working in open IETF process on any new service for over 5 years now wou= ld have to put a lot of development resources on the table to develop data = plane and control plane enhancements for essentially subset of functionalit= y at best ?=C2=A0

It is nothing about anyone's= good will or not ... it is all about limited resources. Features and exten= sions are not added to any vendor based on the RFC translation engine. It i= s pretty difficult and painful process. So without huge market demand behin= d it I would be highly surprised if any vendor who committed to SRv6 alread= y would now take real on support for SRv6+.

Thank = you,
R.








On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi,

> No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting tra= pped in the SRv6 walled garden.
>
> The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you d= o not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from= any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or = to make sure the WG product is the best possible.
>
> So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with = SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization.
>
> Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already sh= ipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at bes= t counterproductive.

No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with lot= s of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IPv6 ins= tead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport technologies. = I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many knobs and &qu= ot;special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be= much harder to work with.

> It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts whi= ch woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services yo= u are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mV= PN+ without any new functionality.

That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true eithe= r=E2=80=A6

> Would it make sense ?

If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do th= ose things? Most definitely yes.

It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" t= hings are added that is a problem here. Progress also include making techno= logy easier to manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessib= le to average network engineers.

Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved, n= ot when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to tak= e away.=E2=80=9D

Cheers,
Sander

--000000000000e15cd50592364eee-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 10:40:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED40E120822 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:40:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c_xOYn_LBeUi for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEE021202DD for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 10:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681CD4B; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:39:56 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1568137193; bh=jybnMdSZqddF/6m67Sf S2HvaQ5+jDBpkYLyUxaCQrNw=; b=dBW/JUrjiFCyun0IunPHVVYnc6vazEd7UnJ KEZww9CKo3eBJK00KqB8yj2JWZkmmx/GcNplYGDzONO21tfUNIYgT4XyTaYJH/zb H+80Plfxakm8Wzlp2lZSxwDz0G1eJF5KSqTJZ/ASESKXzEajast3YoWN1W8UA2TS Ecf1+dhY= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id rDwvEtSZ4264; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:39:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2568D3C; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:39:53 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <40BCFF8C-CDD1-436C-A319-71DCCEE86677@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_05ADBC9E-F030-448D-9D69-F2EC1DDACE12"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:39:52 +0200 In-Reply-To: <2E39DE90-B807-4C16-A83D-FA2DDD162EB4@nokia.com> Cc: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Voyer, Daniel" To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> <2E39DE90-B807-4C16-A83D-FA2DDD162EB4@nokia.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 17:40:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_05ADBC9E-F030-448D-9D69-F2EC1DDACE12 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Wim, > WH> Would you be ok with this? = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip-07, support = segment routing over IPv4 and/or IPv6. No, I don't want to have to manage both MPLS and tunnels. That only adds = complexity. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_05ADBC9E-F030-448D-9D69-F2EC1DDACE12 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VC3eloaasvH0nE1oC0DsP4kE7kFAl133+gACgkQoC0DsP4k E7lFgwf+MnHvspAoG8hGCMeJfbosm25TeKIYurO94sUMvAQC/5YkHxbFRrIppZfJ 3+PF3na33wiH88qJ2R2G13uu9afVXsyRQfCCSbdmKTkeW+oC5hH/JlJL1qyDtiej WPUjtY6t0dyzz6aW376JKbGVKGl4FtBOX5/II5DgaUVusim+U0D2zclRs8Vd1OaD yZLd9gmJi1TKQZTiFkdgEeXdF3HWH2rFUcsq5Y26wz2lzqE6gY8FltHxmyRFVz7s a82mM/alpow1CFeJcesjetZYLbKjH7mYR+4Cn/NZS5XqQuLqbaxXb32nE4sBTgp/ CXksWPpKyYLU439mGTZqLLeYCIHP+g== =T8XX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_05ADBC9E-F030-448D-9D69-F2EC1DDACE12-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 11:07:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284ED1201B7 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:07:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7K65SjUnOwRT for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr00121.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.0.121]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A598112008C for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:07:03 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=IuCgvxJuDs8w5Yvu6AtBxKyv1EKMmyZaySq3v8kPLVEPnbRT2H3RLHvpq0St7j0mGAvspcRauE/c7a2FKih0XKI5WfMocBXHnqA2/rtqFlBJLxrli6HMUpCGe3O7y9VmV1dQxMPVq0dVWpX8xU3+qna8qe87lFokMWNVMC3tO8u560RLXyCdFKMAIPw0A3/F2p1L9BerRoFc7j8QaNgXUux3V3FiGLaZGnb3fQlmZgy4LGs816k5QALq0cJKWDvHTu48n95ivS3Rm+Y7m//wubjUFdDoGNtF6AVet3BRCidbYUQWVfU71O6G/0OtHccmUwN14AqKvIR34rJ8vfu0/A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=AE44Lz44noqHELuJrEIJPCqC5HLrc0CkJa7WIUY2JbY=; b=VQLjs0gAAmPhjehrl6v0gBsx+9BGCEXfR/V0ssq+1W1Q1awTqyWB5/F2NhPIZtVwaH6qwuAhcGTGgWAkRTLpt5m5WW51pY4EY4VaNAYQ8dGL3QskF6WINxy/42clUeBcn3d0cKgipK8G5uUsn8ZU91aA9E2F4OKSJNubeZnABAo3meFU88a1NXlORyk1gg5kvfw+0gRlOOEF1kYrdAXpSBBrxLgAZt1tbnyN4zKUIslq81vEKF4N1lKD2r3kggTVZO39UmJcwNZoEzLRkYGTCOfnE4iRJM4wr+MemiupGRV2vHFGxnhYtarxAKD+qYkNPps4p8ssJW7wj4OH2W7C3Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nokia.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=nokia.com; dkim=pass header.d=nokia.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=AE44Lz44noqHELuJrEIJPCqC5HLrc0CkJa7WIUY2JbY=; b=Zb0Cu+CWSmCgOvuWgIz0kzRMAh2Yj90Jip7Zs9M4lRkFM38lA8WmCa7GEil20WI2c1HDz7pVeZt47NIlcG6u46vtxC53Qsgv+0J5UmDA+rHFqYWIaNEbDgpOZCbcAIxQPu3JijaoDBztOpRwt5akX4vDfe57u8oSZOf0iiP6u+o= Received: from AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.88.32) by AM6PR07MB3864.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (52.134.119.161) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2263.5; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:07:01 +0000 Received: from AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fc8c:14c:1673:2cc1]) by AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fc8c:14c:1673:2cc1%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2263.005; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:07:01 +0000 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" To: Sander Steffann CC: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Voyer, Daniel" Thread-Topic: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) 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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:07:06 -0000 U2FuZGVyLCBpbi1saW5lDQoNCu+7v09uIDEwLzA5LzIwMTksIDE5OjM5LCAiU2FuZGVyIFN0ZWZm YW5uIiA8c2FuZGVyQHN0ZWZmYW5uLm5sPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIEhpIFdpbSwNCiAgICANCiAg ICA+IFdIPiBXb3VsZCB5b3UgYmUgb2sgd2l0aCB0aGlzPyBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3Jn L2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tcGxzLXNyLW92ZXItaXAtMDcsIHN1cHBvcnQgc2VnbWVudCByb3V0 aW5nIG92ZXIgSVB2NCBhbmQvb3IgSVB2Ni4NCiAgICANCiAgICBObywgSSBkb24ndCB3YW50IHRv IGhhdmUgdG8gbWFuYWdlIGJvdGggTVBMUyBhbmQgdHVubmVscy4gVGhhdCBvbmx5IGFkZHMgY29t cGxleGl0eS4NCg0KV0g+IHdpdGggU1J2NisgeW91IGhhdmUgdG8gZG8gdGhlIHNhbWUsIGJ0dyB0 aGlzIGlzIG5vIGxvbmdlciBNUExTIGluIHRoZSBzdHJpY3Qgc2Vuc2UgYXMgd2l0aCBMRFAvUlNW UCwgaXQgaXMgYSB0YWcgdG8gbWFrZSBhIGZ3ZCBkZWNpc2lvbiBvbi4gTG9vayBhdCBpdCBhcyAz Mi1iaXQgU0lEIHdoaWNoIGlzIHNpZ25hbGVkIGluIElHUC4gU28geW91IGFyZSBqdXN0IHJ1bm5p bmcgYW4gSUdQIGFuZCBpZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBzZXJ2aWNlcywgcHJvYmFibHkgTVAtQkdQIG9yIG5h dGl2ZSBCR1AuIA0KSSBhbSBub3Qgc3VyZSBidXQgc29tZSBwZW9wbGUgaGF2ZSBwZXJjZXB0aW9u IHRoaXMgaXMgTVBMUyBhcyBwZXIgUlNWUC9MRFAgYnV0IGl0IGlzbuKAmXQuIGl0IGlzIGEgdGFn IHRoYXQgcmVwcmVzZW50cyBhIHByZWZpeC1TSUQvYWRqYWNlbmN5IFNJRC4gTm90aGluZyBtb3Jl IGFuZCBub3RoaW5nIGxlc3MuDQogICAgDQogICAgQ2hlZXJzLA0KICAgIFNhbmRlcg0KICAgIA0K ICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Tue Sep 10 11:36:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DD3120834 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:36:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0NN8L19hnjAs for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x744.google.com (mail-qk1-x744.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::744]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DE3B1201B7 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x744.google.com with SMTP id s18so18147479qkj.3 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:36:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ba68VTi5pks6E1OEeS8hPJcrdvT0j+0ktFSsLLqTbtU=; b=XMqPzPTPpFOwdxFUriFHE4jPGSA8RJyle9l6ZPaj5sXFvLINFfRiYE2M7GLtrBnk6M R2UeTUxYKPrfNL+AEKuUDVA7Qz3NjngSPRigcIsbKXmjXs4ciDpO4rNsaPWg518cKrq1 6hkIUMSkh2CT8RSIFvpLkpZTkemCkL5srxExoL7KOsI9ZtXNWzeIgWnYOO32Y2dOhk4s /VAYRl+EROHM1kSniF663j5gZkA3w/5ZYrvu3n6WY+uAuYnjITHXjcsYF78ny4ZBaCVG q8/xoGSW0+uBdu+opYO/kzCSxQdf20LAq6aIaqPmQMvLfc2b2i1Mp0cKGGF4mE3HQ/gq XL5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ba68VTi5pks6E1OEeS8hPJcrdvT0j+0ktFSsLLqTbtU=; b=kkYfyOPaNRe1BaD8fUOU6i42GwoNmyzl45EAgyKjuWtCheIYcDUr5mI15fDLZQwVij 6WBY6wqjGYtr+j0VVSNeglkANKdMGW9N14ga0ej4oPQ/t5hw1VB7hrAJatsX5bKZ2Qxo ueineooVA5wZY676DWEw9lOzrD6Ew8l3nreBftGhwQ+ZtsP3z7wPe0nhw2BBLutymVIN 9+3zBTToaveetfQgM3LFaysMzcSFvjbLQc5E0zEYxegFMZPpa41Bzd6sVWxE8LUMJA0A Z6Oxkx5RcRdBc/a1DJ9IKwel0Ljmhl6CP/k6OORkBZnXrR8UqoDTO3M+OoWqeXmrpV/M P+Nw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWSjglRwTeGcdr3fgw+DZwrDZ0WBxvVaYnBMzyZv+PAN+wemx5X Qh/a51z4JrviHStINFIkSCJGwYcsSVzyyeMqZfoRBQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzp8FA2I1ZQmdIgCS6/QhNzzsDDkeV0s5Iopna62vZLAJzCDsgIzyMHNx+G1yoDU4wC8SjGXP2ZUuJXDTLe7E8= X-Received: by 2002:a37:8547:: with SMTP id h68mr30112814qkd.219.1568140605441; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:36:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> <2E39DE90-B807-4C16-A83D-FA2DDD162EB4@nokia.com> <40BCFF8C-CDD1-436C-A319-71DCCEE86677@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:36:36 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" Cc: Sander Steffann , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Voyer, Daniel" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bed9cc0592372fd1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:36:55 -0000 --000000000000bed9cc0592372fd1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Wim, > I am not sure but some people have perception this is MPLS as per RSVP/LDP but it isn=E2=80=99t. Exactly. See: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/qvRUp8SC2cWeIE5UhhU9aKGtpHM > No, I don't want to have to manage both MPLS and tunnels. That only adds complexity. No one would ask you to manage any "MPLS" nor any "tunnels". In fact there is no tunnels ! It is automatic encapsulation to remote segment node. 100% seamless just like you swap Dest address in the IPv6 fixed encap header. The CLI front end can be IDENTICAL to SRv6+, the show commands can show you 32 bit SIDs OSPF & ISIS can show you the mapping, BGP L3VPN label will be still used for L3VPN demux etc ... Thx R. --000000000000bed9cc0592372fd1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Wim,

> I am not sure b= ut some people have perception this is MPLS as per RSVP/LDP but it isn=E2= =80=99t.=C2=A0=C2=A0




--000000000000bed9cc0592372fd1-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 11:59:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3AF120271 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:59:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FV3wq79TgQ-n for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr20106.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.2.106]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A897120090 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:59:36 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=HCvX19xD4NZd99o8PSEbcbN59xk5dVkdUyen2RZQfqihfi/LTcSJEPjHN+7MpuDb7r4RocQ5Wf+gYwRznNLU+zVuEmgwuvLviF5N8uyefI6B+sIWl4HFDR5EAfVd79KUqcJQRHsV5o607Z9Bkxcs4MzqnW+V4dN+Wyue0XRqxvomfZC/vxW68GxgIJlJcjmxZjk62Bp7fihiiSXbrAS4Nw93ykF6ov5t2XuARxhFt/JLjdBqq8Z1iL3Mr3mMVniKUJMHEuAQgfsvjre86+j/VEQxBH53QDTMMxhfeAW6hmgbHSwLaZxyK62Db9yfwE9ePuxFLG0gbZPLkKlHYL3hVQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=xwY0M1y7ImB6BVbcXfcUSRp95mMkHm+JIdQKyRqQ7OM=; b=F2VHRC5wCKNoTiKflOzBIqEFyn4bdvo+B2ruGrfWpRuUYoHg4BbXqBo8DVN2H4tRmKn3gnYhBIWfExx6byU1ZR0dqSeCSG7iA4w+Lh6RykLrQil5xYQ/IJ/d7tLq21PVw8auHbow+1RSOXtPIzDQMikJapGJ80TytJIhK3s5NJi9LWVwXERLzw/LQVj2NN8OxdEf2RUAFq9uEwqLfzYfcqilN/vkNqccAW8/tQ0iZB4n0qigruF8mWW3sb8k/g0SMpS1SxxIxnpS09nVniAwXGqqw0rKY06NEl/v5k1FHF2i19pBP08N+cYh2qUVNqM6kZ/78a52O0jTHACT9760Tw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=nokia.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=nokia.com; dkim=pass header.d=nokia.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nokia-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=xwY0M1y7ImB6BVbcXfcUSRp95mMkHm+JIdQKyRqQ7OM=; b=rVdl57t2hoe/si0vPly6Ok20EbeE+lz/FRsFpBPU43xZdS83P7+sU9lvAdTbbKE8SpsoEe3SBFd00Vx/6BiNZdAHPJboD7l99qo2U0Xknqgc6MiVmz1+XMnWZRnar4eEOsmQxmQnXXi/4l5pTwndEeIFovMuNEyYqWutvsy+x+k= Received: from AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.88.32) by AM6PR07MB5432.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (20.178.91.160) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2263.10; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:59:33 +0000 Received: from AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fc8c:14c:1673:2cc1]) by AM6PR07MB5926.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fc8c:14c:1673:2cc1%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2263.005; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 18:59:33 +0000 From: "Henderickx, Wim (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" To: Robert Raszuk CC: Sander Steffann , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Voyer, Daniel" Thread-Topic: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) 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[111.69.206.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 129sm23142170pfd.173.2019.09.10.13.30.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:30:47 -0700 (PDT) To: li zhenqiang , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , Fernando Gont , Fernando Gont Cc: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan , draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <3e31873a-278a-2154-0e71-4d820bba323d@gont.com.ar> <4012D854-2F10-4476-951D-FFFE73C5083C@gmail.com> <28214_1567694772_5D711FB4_28214_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFA9F3@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <17120_1567700712_5D7136E8_17120_341_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BFAEF1@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6833faa5-943c-d7d5-21f8-2a933defe492@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 08:30:41 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:31:00 -0000 Hi Zhenqiang, On 10-Sep-19 22:14, li zhenqiang wrote: > Hi Bruno, >=20 > Thank you very much for your response and clarification. > I agree with you that as of today RFC8200 rejects EH insertion. Since=C2= =A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is NOT updating RFC8200, it= should not contain texts or mechanisms that contradict with RFC8200. > Of course, Internet Standards can be updated to reflect technical progr= ess and satisfy new requirements following the updating procedure. Before= an Internet Standard under update reaches new rough consensus, we have t= o follow the rules specified in the old one. >=20 > BTW, EH insertion was intensively discussed alot when we did RFC2460bis= =2E Two years passed after RFC8200 was published. Is it time for us to re= open the discussion based on the requirement raised in=C2=A0I-D.voyer-6ma= n-extension-header-insertion? I don't believe that is the first discussion. IMHO, the first discussion = should be whether we (as a community) believe we should standardise featu= res that only work within a specified domain, or continue with the assump= tion that standardised features must work across the open Internet. Regards Brian Carpenter >=20 > Best Regards, > Zhenqiang Li > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------- > li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com >=20 > =C2=A0 > *From:*=C2=A0bruno.decraene@orange.com > *Date:*=C2=A02019-09-06=C2=A000:25 > *To:*=C2=A0Fernando Gont ; Fernando G= ont > *CC:*=C2=A0Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org ; 6man@ietf.org ; Suresh Krishnan ; draft-voye= r-6man-extension-header-insertion ; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming ; li zhenqiang > *Subject:*=C2=A0RE: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function > > From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fgont@si6networks.com] > > Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 4:56 PM > > > > On 5/9/19 17:46, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > > > Fernando, > > > > > >=C2=A0 > > >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fer= nando Gont > > >> Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 1:18 PM > > >> > > >> Hello, Suresh, > > >> > > >> On 2/9/19 19:07, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > > >> [....] > > >>>>> So, we should probably explore the motivation for Option 2)= =2E If the > > >>>>> motivation is not sufficient, we should probably standardiz= e on Option 1. > > >>>> > > >>>> My argument would be: > > >>>> Folks would do whatever they please with 1). If somehow they= feel the > > >>>> need to do 2), they should *refrain from even suggesting it*= , post an > > >>>> internet draft that proposes to update RFC8200 to allow for = the > > >>>> insertion of EHs, wait for that to be adopted and published,= and only > > >>>> then suggest to do EH insertion. > > >>> > > >>> I have put down my thoughts on the future of header insertion= work in a > > >>> mail to the 6man list in May 2017. The mail can be found belo= w > > >>> > > >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/4MevopH9_iQglUizho= T5Rl-TjRc > > >> > > >> This seems e bit misleading. What I would expect is that befor= e any work > > >> is published on EH-insertion, the IPv6 standard is updated to = allow for > > >> EH insertion. (plese see bellow) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>>> P.S.: Given the amount of discussion there has been on this = topic in the > > >>>> context of RFC8200, I'd like to hope that there's no draft-i= etf document > > >>>> suggesting EH-insertion or, if there is, the relevant ADs an= d chairs > > >>>> make sure that's not the case anymore. > > >>> > > >>> Yes. If a draft violates RFC8200 and it hits the IESG for eva= luation, I > > >>> will certainly hold a DISCUSS position until the violations a= re fixed. > > >> > > >> Since there have been plenty of attempts to do EH insertion or= leave the > > >> IPv6 standard ambiguous in this respect, and the IETF has had = consensus > > >> that EH insertion is not allowed, I think it would be bad, was= tefull, > > >> tricky, and even dangerous to let a document go through the wh= ole > > >> publication process, and just rely on the AD to keep the "DISC= USS" > > >> button pressed. > > > > > > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming has a normative refe= rence to [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] > > >=C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-networ= k-programming-01#section-13.1 > > > > > > As such, from a process standpoint, it would not going to be pu= blished before [I-D.voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion] be itself publ= ished as RFC. And from its name, the latter is intended to be discussed a= nd within control of the 6MAN WG. So I don't think that we can say that i= t "just rely on the AD to keep the "DISCUSS" button pressed." > > > > > > In my mind, this should also be a clear indication that the que= stion of header insertion is (to be) within the control of the 6MAN WG. B= ut you may have a different opinion. > > > > Maybe my mental algorithm has a bug, but: what's the point of spr= ing > > working on a document that relies on something that 6man has so f= ar > > rejected? > =C2=A0 > I take your point that 6MAN has rejected, in the past, general head= er insertion. (under the control of the 6MAN WG as I feel some nuances de= pending on the speakers) > I don't know about the future 6MAN position with regards to SRH ins= ertion specifically for SRv6, possibly restricted to a specific usage (e.= g. TI-LFA) or context (e.g. source, transit and destinations nodes are wi= thin a single control domain). As of today, I'm expecting [I-D.voyer-6man= -extension-header-insertion] to reflect this and I'm using it as a coordi= nation and gating tooling between 2 IETF WGs. I'm open to considering oth= ers tools. But if your point is that the SPRING WG cannot discuss, envisa= ge and document the usage of SRH insertion in the SPRING context, that is= not my reading of the SPRING charter. As part of this discussion, you ar= e very welcome to contribute. > =C2=A0 > Finally, let me remind that draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing is NOT updating RFC8200, and is NOT meant to=C2=A0 update RFC8200. Th= is has been explicitly stated "this document is not intended to update RF= C 8200. If a behavior needs to update RFC 8200, it should be defined in a= 6MAN draft in the 6MAN WG and normatively referenced." > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/GyYapMbWJdv95hoDMjZNKl= 5WHG4 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0 > > You spend energy on the document and then... just sit on the I-D = to see > > if 6man adopts voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion? Ship the do= cument > > to the IESG for them to review? -- I'm lost, sorry. > =C2=A0 > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming is not primarily about h= eader insertion. Its scope is much wider. > So SPRING WG is working on the whole text of draft-ietf-spring-srv6= -network-programming. If at some point the normative reference to [I-D.vo= yer-6man-extension-header-insertion] is holding the progression of the do= cument, as of today I could see two paths: wait some more time/forever (i= =2Ee. never publish that document as RFC); remove the text blocking the p= rogression. Personally, I would assume the latter. There could be others = options, but I'd rather consider this when/if we face the problem. In the= meantime, would you have an issue with any of those two/three hypothetic= paths (wait, never publish, remove SRH insertion)? > =C2=A0 > Thank you. > --Bruno > > -- > > Fernando Gont > > SI6 Networks > > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 749= 2 > > > > > > > > > =C2=A0 > ___________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________________ > =C2=A0 > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations = confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous a= vez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les mes= sages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, def= orme ou falsifie. Merci. > =C2=A0 > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privil= eged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisatio= n. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender = and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that ha= ve been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > =C2=A0 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 From nobody Tue Sep 10 13:49:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C1D12022A; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILlwxYqC6COw; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33ED7120090; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id w22so12238554pfi.9; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 13:49:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JnuIb5tsPuU+e6oPjEY6+FS0LqWUaSjKzoSADQLAdac=; b=Xvk7qk3hHiiA4S1JLEQwYaA11MsNVtXhmGvjEyCb3OSe2g6BUpHuhnmsad0aUFljEm VGiveKv72qGOmF67Uy7YOl0Lcmp66CUWCO5pHg1/tNHW4wp4O9Cob9W9JYkmR6BtmgIj paFJlCF+SBerCRTopmRgQCIJ2B2vZTqJu/+Syhl0aWfyi3h/o8YU+39udijzyXvd+uwx 32Bsrj/4ra0DYVzSHyIi4VC/1owbAcsIOadVfGmsG+iDlnP9ftYVrqRtmXLx4u/TZmcD sxvhkIxp7NyOyQDUj6x3Z+EoPPPa6SrW9FCvl8bttvYgLnET6hVFxX/zm+FkhZ4P+HSH EnzA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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boundary="0000000000002064b70592390ad8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Question about SRv6 Insert function X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:49:27 -0000 --0000000000002064b70592390ad8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Brian, > the first discussion should be whether we (as a community) believe we should > standardise features that only work within a specified domain, or continue with > the assumption that standardised features must work across the open Internet. Indeed I agree. Just to rephrase the question: Is IPv6 to be used only as end to end host to host protocol or should IPv6 also be used as transport protocol natively in the networks. Solid deployments prove it can be used for both. Many people think it can and should be used for both. But if there is solid IETF formal statement that it is *only* to be used as end to end host protocol then we should really start putting more work into other encapsulations which will allow to simply transport IPv6 datagrams as payload or alternatively industry will seek other standards to conitinue work on IPv6 as transport protocol. Just imagine how it can be called ... IPv6+ :) Many thx, R. --0000000000002064b70592390ad8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Brian,

> the first discussion should be whether we (as a c= ommunity) believe we should=C2=A0
> standardise features that= only work within a specified domain, or continue with=C2=A0
>= ; the assumption that standardised features must work across the open Inter= net.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Indeed I agree.=C2=A0

Just to rephrase the question:

Is IPv6 to be used only as end to end host to host protocol or s= hould IPv6 also be used as transport protocol natively=C2=A0in the networks= .=C2=A0

Solid deployme= nts prove it can be used for both. Many people think it can and should be u= sed for both.=C2=A0

Bu= t if there is solid IETF formal statement that it is *only* to be used as e= nd to end host protocol then we should really start putting more work into = other encapsulations which will allow to simply transport IPv6 datagrams as= payload or alternatively industry will seek other standards to conitinue w= ork on IPv6 as transport protocol. Just imagine how it can be called ... IP= v6+ :)=C2=A0

Many thx,=
R.




<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small">









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+0000 From: James Guichard To: Sander Steffann , Robert Raszuk CC: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) Thread-Index: AQHVZ+BWlQ/7lS6hT0u9ckyr4ZdQYKck+IEAgAADhwCAABKhAIAAawVg Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 22:15:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=james.n.guichard@futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [47.14.29.133] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c881a34c-fe99-457f-f8bf-08d7363c5e20 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600166)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:CH2PR13MB3879; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CH2PR13MB3879: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:5797; x-forefront-prvs: 01565FED4C x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(376002)(346002)(39850400004)(366004)(396003)(136003)(189003)(199004)(13464003)(66556008)(66476007)(76116006)(4744005)(8676002)(66946007)(3846002)(66066001)(8936002)(6116002)(99286004)(64756008)(14454004)(2906002)(86362001)(4326008)(53546011)(316002)(81166006)(256004)(5660300002)(478600001)(102836004)(25786009)(81156014)(6506007)(110136005)(26005)(54906003)(71190400001)(9686003)(446003)(11346002)(7736002)(71200400001)(7696005)(66446008)(76176011)(305945005)(52536014)(6436002)(476003)(55016002)(229853002)(6246003)(486006)(74316002)(33656002)(186003)(53936002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CH2PR13MB3879; H:CH2PR13MB3608.namprd13.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: futurewei.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: wVojAEtz9jikisYu30l/AQ3YsjWTHvUkVbbauKxX5loKwBYG/dnL6cYPYiAfi8/ogPzBmuHh+roEgA3iWLIiNxemxr5nX21fa7q6zcP51OvB74pMeSULPL09LeGhQgnIC2pS1ko8bBKP5GIa/b3hlk5EbLEDLBcRsAdeLbg0/Iz4Rg8DBG/d6BxPuViCYUnMLlXUp3qaV7PKZhcWejJ3azkcU2bCxrgLFcPcZh++uE9gxcrIWMuxTZTbsukSsLjDFhRf28+BagZ0EDsozN2bObgiAlvBGTuY1hg0NTA6+QTaupR74lA4AcCXcKJD3BTEikmliLx04qLg7YzSW12a/tZHZqnLoWuv0ixeJJ8F326T7d1SkNqMxOHtozi/xZnWc7R8UpEnBvmq3uDi8qT286W7s5kjL6jzUTkQsryM9eg= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c881a34c-fe99-457f-f8bf-08d7363c5e20 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Sep 2019 22:15:19.9132 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: gtDmoW+A1dIlNNy9mUVHPNIXiqAhQ2Bb6qE+x7VTjz5mYouKfCGzfp+naTG3lJNdYxIhYFAlxAPDxWq7dloSFw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR13MB3879 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <074873B0-AD97-4D14-914C-5A2CA162CB44@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <1BA5FB3D-B873-4AFA-86CE-14FAED4F9B27@cisco.com> <6d6b4b04bca30fae8b575e3855cb724@cweb03.nmdf.nhnsystem.com> To: Hirofumi Ichihara , SPRING WG List Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 01:31:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail-9A6F6C61-9053-48AF-80FB-414BD744C1E5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent news. I=E2=80=99d capture your case in the SRv6 deployment draft, in case you=E2=80= =99d be okay. Cheers, --satoru 2019/09/11 9:55=E3=80=81Hirofumi Ichihara =E3= =81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: > Hi folks, > =E2=80=8B > Let me mention my opinion as an operator. > =E2=80=8B > Our company already has deployed and used SRv6 Network in our DC. Our use c= ase is L3VPN to isolate network for each multi-tenant and we decided to use T= .Encaps and End.DX4. Currently, we deployed hypervisors and gateway nodes wh= ich are aware of SRv6. Although there are many routers not supported SRv6 be= tween HVs and GW nodes, it works fine because of current SRH mechanism. We a= ctually use one SID only between HV and HV, HV and GW so we don't face the i= ssue like many SIDs now although we have a plan to use multiple SIDs for our= SFC use case. > =E2=80=8B > We don't have specific opinion to shorter SIDs. However, we operator hope s= trongly that new thing must configure backward compatibility or reasonable m= igration plan. > =E2=80=8B > Thanks, > Hirofumi >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: "Shraddha Hegde"=20 > To: "Andy Smith (andsmit)"; "Ron Bonica";=20 > Cc: "SPRING WG List"; "6man@ietf.org"<6man@ietf.org>; "Gy= an Mishra"; "Robert Raszuk"; "Rob S= hakir"; "Tarek Saad";=20 > Sent: 2019-09-10 (=E7=81=AB) 02:51:48 (GMT+09:00) > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > =20 > Andy, > =20 > RFC 6119 defines ipv6 router-id . > It is not mandatory to advertise IPv4 router-id in ISIS. > =20 > Rgds > Shraddha > =20 > From: spring On Behalf Of Andy Smith (andsmit) > Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 10:07 PM > To: Ron Bonica > Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org; Gyan Mishra ; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > =20 > Ron, > =20 > Doesn't ISIS require a quad octet / 32 bit / IPv4 address for it's router I= D? > =20 > So you can't really build an ipv4 'free' network. Not 100% anyway. > =20 > Andy > =20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: > =20 > Hello Gyan, > =20 > Amplifying what you have said=E2=80=A6.. > =20 > There is no reason why SR-MPLS shouldn=E2=80=99t work over an IPv6 only in= frastructure. So long as every node is MPLS capable, SR-MPLS should not requ= ire IPv4 to be enabled. > =20 > = Ron > =20 > =20 > =20 > Juniper Business Use Only > From: Gyan Mishra =20 > Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 3:20 AM > To: Robert Raszuk > Cc: Srihari Sangli ; SPRING WG List = ; 6man@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) ; Rob Shakir ; Ron Bonica ; Tarek Saad > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > =20 > As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls networks I think our= traditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D will be around for a ve= ry very long time as is IPv4 if not longer. > =20 > Most all service provider cores run greater then or equal to MTU 9000 mpls= cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked on plus edge overhead= from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general making the core the max= imum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is generally done o= ut in the field. > =20 > So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is really a non issu= e for=20 > most operators. > =20 > =46rom reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two f= old one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end u= p requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 sour= ce node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence o= n intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding T= i-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA= and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an a= dditional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA= . Can someone clarify that use case for me. Also the EH insertion on inter= mediate node what is the use case or reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99= s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together. Please clarify. > =20 > I do agree with some of the other operators on the marketing hype and push= for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service provider as goes the mantra .= .=E2=80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix it..leave it a= lone=E2=80=9D and I think you can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had= a SOLID run for service providers since the 90=E2=80=99s ever since ATM and= frame relay were put to rest so I don=E2=80=99t think that it=E2=80=99s goi= ng away any time soon. > =20 > I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state of affairs for vendors= to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and support of MPLS as that w= ould really pigeon hole all operators into one technology which does not fit= the bill for every use case out there. > =20 > The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and forcing operators to g= o with SRv6 is a wrong move for vendors and would really limit operators wit= h flexibility to chose based on their use case to stay with traditional mpls= or go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use cas= e warrants.. > =20 > I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and the industry as= yet another tool in our operator =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80=9D to use as= we see fit or not use but not be forced into it. > =20 > There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from existing LDP= and the downside of having state maintained in the core is not a downside a= s the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is no savings in= pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D and ditching= LDP. =20 > =20 > I think the major use case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE fea= ture for L3 VPNs steering without adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback e= gress PE FEC next hop to traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic. That is a unique u= se case and not every major service provider has that requirement so if you d= on=E2=80=99t their really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and you ca= n stay put with the tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and= is not going away any time soon. > =20 > SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case that could serve for M= PLS core replacement or on the public internet or for enterprise network tra= ffic engineering of flows between data centers or access to data center and a= n alternative to SD WAN application based routing solutions. But here as we= ll the use case benefit has to exist. Nobody wants to be forced into it if i= t=E2=80=99s unnecessary added complexity. > =20 > My 2 1/2 cents=20 > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Gyan Mishra > Verizon Communications=20 > Cell- 301 502-1347 > =20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 > On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > I don't think so.=20 > =20 > In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure real= customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU issues. So ad= ding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient.=20 > =20 > Wrong tree :)=20 > =20 > Cheers, > R. > =20 > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli wrote:= > =20 > On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from robert@raszuk.net said > > =20 > Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that a real problem ? > =20 > Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out before, its inefficient enc= oding. > =20 > srihari=E2=80=A6 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > =20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-9A6F6C61-9053-48AF-80FB-414BD744C1E5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent news.

I=E2=80=99= d capture your case in the SRv6 deployment draft, in case you=E2=80=99d be o= kay.

Cheers,
--satoru

-----Original Message----= -
From: "Shraddha Hegde"<shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> <= br>To: "Andy Smith (andsmit)"<andsmit@cisco.com>; "Ron Bonica"<rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; Cc: "SPRING WG List"<spring@i= etf.org>; "6man@ietf.org"<6man@ietf.org>; "Gyan Mishra"<hayabusagsm@gmail.com>; "Robert Ras= zuk"<robert@raszuk.net>; "Rob= Shakir"<robjs@google.com>; "T= arek Saad"<tsaad.net@gmail.com= >;
Sent: 2019-09-10 (=E7=81=AB) 02:51:48 (GMT+09:00)
Sub= ject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.
 

Andy,

 

RFC 6119 defines ipv6 router-id .

It is not mandatory to advertise IPv4 router-id in ISIS.

 

Rgds

Shraddha

 

From: spring <spring= -bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andy Smith (andsmit)
Sent: Monday, September 9, 2019 10:07 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf= .org>; 6man@ietf.org; Gyan Mishr= a <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>= ; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com<= /a>>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gma= il.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

Ron,

 

Doesn't ISIS require a quad octet / 32 bit / IPv4 address for it's router= ID?

 

So you can't really build an ipv4 'free' network.   Not 100% anyway.=

 

Andy

 

 



On Sep 9, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Ron Bonica <r= bonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Hello Gyan,

 

Amplifying what you have said=E2=80=A6..

 

There is no reason why SR-MPLS shouldn=E2=80=99t work over an IPv6 only i= nfrastructure. So long as every node is MPLS capable, SR-MPLS should not req= uire IPv4 to be enabled.

 

            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;   Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> 
Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 3:20 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; <= span style=3D"color:purple">6man@ietf.org; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com= >; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com= >; Ron Bonica <rbonica= @juniper.net>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

 

As an operator of a Tier 1 provider with massive mpls networks I think ou= r traditional bread and butter =E2=80=9Cmpls=E2=80=9D will be around for a v= ery very long time as is IPv4 if not longer.

 

Most all service provider cores run greater then or equal to MTU 9000 mpl= s cores to account for mpls overhead shims being tacked on plus edge overhea= d from possible GRE tunneling or IPSEC so in general making  the core t= he maximum Jumbo MTU supported by most vendors at 9216 is what is generally done out in the f= ield.

 

So for SRv6 support of multiple or many EH insertions is really a non iss= ue for 

most operators.

 

=46rom reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two= fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so en= d up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 s= ource node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermedi= ate nodes.  I have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA w= ith SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is= not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertio= n needs to occur for Ti-LFA.  Can someone clarify that use case for me.=  Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or re= ason for that.  My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together.  Please clarify.

 

I do agree with some of the other operators on the marketing hype and pus= h for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is not for every service provider as goes the mantra .= .=E2=80=9Dif it=E2=80=99s not broken..don=E2=80=99t try to fix it..leave it a= lone=E2=80=9D and I think you can definitely say that for MPLS as it has had a SOLID run for service providers since the= 90=E2=80=99s ever since ATM and frame relay were put to rest so I don=E2=80= =99t think that it=E2=80=99s going away any time soon.

 

I think it would be a serious mistake and sad state of affairs for vendor= s to push SR-MPLS and SRv6 and stop development and support of MPLS as that w= ould really pigeon hole all operators into one technology which does not fit= the bill for every use case out there.

 

The mention of SR-MPLS pulling support for IPv6 and forcing operators to g= o with SRv6 is a wrong move for vendors and would really limit operators wit= h flexibility to chose based on their use case to stay with traditional mpls= or go with with SR-MPLS or SRv6 only if necessary with their unique use case warrants.= .

 

I think SR-MPLS and SRv6 should be marketed by vendors and the industry a= s yet another tool in our operator =E2=80=9Cdesign toolbox=E2=80=9D to use a= s we see fit or not use but not be forced into it.

 

There are particular use cases for SR-MPLS for migration from existing LD= P and the downside of having state maintained in the core is not a downside a= s the P and PE nodes have to be provisioned anyway so their is no savings in= pulling mpls LDP/mLDP with SR-MPLS =E2=80=9CSr-prefer=E2=80=9D and ditching LDP.  &= nbsp;

 

I think the major use case for SR-MPLS and SRv6 is coloring per-vrf TE fe= ature for L3 VPNs steering without adding complexity of adding ibgp loopback= egress PE FEC next hop to traffic engineer L3 VPN traffic.  That is a u= nique use case and not every major service provider has that requirement so if you don=E2=80= =99t their really is no need to jump on the SR band wagon and you can stay p= ut with the tried and true mpls that has been around for decades and is not g= oing away any time soon.

 

SRv6 has a more ubiquitous all encompassing use case that could serve for= MPLS core replacement or on the public internet or for enterprise network t= raffic engineering of flows between data centers or access to data center an= d an alternative to SD WAN application based routing solutions.  But here as well the u= se case benefit has to exist.  Nobody wants to be forced into it if it=E2= =80=99s unnecessary added complexity.

 

My 2 1/2 cents 

 

Regards,

 

Gyan Mishra

Verizon Communications 

Cell- 301 502-1347

 

Sent from my iPhone


On Sep 6, 2019, at 10:17 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

I don't think so. 

 

In OAM packets are on purpose made huge - even up to MTU to make sure rea= l customer packets can go through or to detect and diagnose MTU issues. So a= dding SRH to it is nothing one can call inefficient. 

 

Wrong tree :) 

 

Cheers,

R.

 

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:14 PM Srihari Sangli <ssangli@juniper.net> wrote:

 

On 06/09/19, 4:32 PM Robert Raszuk from <= /span>robert@raszuk.net=  said >

 

Not really. Only SR OAM packets may need it. Is that= a real problem ?

 

Thanks for clarification. Like Ron pointed out befor= e, its inefficient encoding.

 

srihari=E2=80=A6

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Administrative Requests: <= span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:purple"= >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i= pv6
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Many people think it can > and should be used for both. > > But if there is solid IETF formal statement that it is *only* to be used > as end to end host protocol then we should really start putting more work > into other encapsulations which will allow to simply transport IPv6 > datagrams as payload or alternatively industry will seek other standards to > conitinue work on IPv6 as transport protocol. > If IPv6 can't meet your requirements without dodgy hacks that decommodifies IPv6, makes it not interoperable with existing IPv6 implementations and deployments, and makes it much harder to troubleshoot, then no, you should not use IPv6. I'm reminded of advice from my Father. Don't use a good blade screwdriver to open the lid of paint can, because you'll ruin the screwdriver. It's not the right tool for the job. Just imagine how it can be called ... IPv6+ :) > > Many thx, > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --00000000000010c73f05923d7e86 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 06:49 Robert Raszuk, <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Brian,

> the first discussion = should be whether we (as a community) believe we should=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small">&g= t; standardise features that only work within a specified domain, or contin= ue with=C2=A0
> the assumption that standardised features mus= t work across the open Internet.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Indeed I agree.=C2=A0

Just to rephrase the question:

Is IPv6 to be used only as end to en= d host to host protocol or should IPv6 also be used as transport protocol n= atively=C2=A0in the networks..=C2=A0

Solid deployments prove it can be used for both. Many people= think it can and should be used for both.=C2=A0
But if there is solid IETF formal statement that= it is *only* to be used as end to end host protocol then we should really = start putting more work into other encapsulations which will allow to simpl= y transport IPv6 datagrams as payload or alternatively industry will seek o= ther standards to conitinue work on IPv6 as transport protocol.

If IPv6 can't meet your requirements without dodgy hacks that decomm= odifies IPv6, makes it not interoperable with existing IPv6 implementations= and deployments, and makes it much harder to troubleshoot, then no, you sh= ould not use IPv6.

I'= ;m reminded of advice from my Father. Don't use a good blade screwdrive= r to open the lid of paint can, because you'll ruin the screwdriver. It= 's not the right tool for the job.




=

Just imagine how it can be called ... IPv6+ :)=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.














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X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DqFQYH4YjoAk for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (m176115.mail.qiye.163.com [59.111.176.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3495120024 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from WangajPC (unknown [219.142.69.77]) by m176115.mail.qiye.163.com (Hmail) with ESMTPA id D45B5661052; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:30:02 +0800 (CST) From: "Aijun Wang" To: "'Robert Raszuk'" , "'Sander Steffann'" Cc: "'Ron Bonica'" , "'SPRING WG List'" , "'Andrew Alston'" , "'James Guichard'" , "'Shraddha Hegde'" , "'Rob Shakir'" , "'Zafar Ali \(zali\)'" , "'Voyer, Daniel'" References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 11:30:02 +0800 Message-ID: <013001d56851$33f0b3b0$9bd21b10$@org.cn> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0131_01D56894.4213F3B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AdVn/fMWUEY9HZOETiCkmHEsyy2PhwAUXbyA Content-Language: zh-cn X-HM-Spam-Status: e1kfGhgUHx5ZQUtXWQgYFAkeWUFZS1VLQk1LS0tPSElCTUNKSEJNWVdZKF lBSkxLS0o3V1ktWUFJV1kJDhceCFlBWTU0KTY6NyQpLjc#WQY+ X-HM-Sender-Digest: e1kMHhlZQR0aFwgeV1kSHx4VD1lBWUc6MDo6Kww*DDlJShMzNSlROjVL IkpPCSxVSlVKTk1DSkxJTUtITkxOVTMWGhIXVQwaFRwaEhEOFTsPCBIVHBMOGlUUCRxVGBVFWVdZ EgtZQVlJSkJVSk9JVU1CVUxMWVdZCAFZQUlKTk5KNwY+ X-HM-Tid: 0a6d1e5ef7329373kuwsd45b5661052 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgR29pbmcgYmFjayB0byB0aGUgb3JpZ2lu?= =?utf-8?q?al_question_for_the_Spring_WG_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Beyond_SRv6=2E=29?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:30:10 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0131_01D56894.4213F3B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Robert: =20 But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service = instruction separation; different instruction carried in different IPv6 = EH). It conforms to RFC8200 as well, seems will be less resisted within = 6man WG. Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related = technologies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J. We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR = technologies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of = SR/SRv6/SRv6+ technologies. =20 Best Regards. =20 Aijun Wang China Telecom =20 =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Robert Raszuk =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 = 1:34 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander Steffann =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James = Guichard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for = the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) =20 Hi Sander, =20 You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are = going to make it or as you will need it to be.=20 =20 No one is mandating you to do any network programming or to use multiple = TLVs. If you just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs = and you are done. If you want to also enable L3VPN you configure it in = pretty much identical way regardless if this is SRv6 or SRv6+.=20 =20 I know I am not going to convince you, but just for the record it is = worh to note that what get's send on the wire is only the information = what you as the vendor need. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to = also be useful for not only you but other operators does not make the = solution "complex". Otherwise we will end up with protocol per customer = which would be pretty bad I am afraid.=20 =20 See many people say BGP is complex ... and it is the same here - BGP is = as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines = of config. But if you need other address families if you need fancy = policy you have all required tools for that on your keyboard.=20 =20 - - -=20 =20 Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further even = writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two = and you submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been working = in open IETF process on any new service for over 5 years now would have = to put a lot of development resources on the table to develop data plane = and control plane enhancements for essentially subset of functionality = at best ?=20 =20 It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about = limited resources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor = based on the RFC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful = process. So without huge market demand behind it I would be highly = surprised if any vendor who committed to SRv6 already would now take = real on support for SRv6+. =20 Thank you, R. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann = wrote: Hi, > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting = trapped in the SRv6 walled garden. >=20 > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you = do not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing = from any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix = it or to make sure the WG product is the best possible. >=20 > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with = SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. >=20 > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already = shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is = at best counterproductive. No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with = lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using = IPv6 instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport = technologies. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many = knobs and "special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it = will be much harder to work with. > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts = which woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for = services you are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, = L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality. That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6 > Would it make sense ? If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do = those things? Most definitely yes. It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are = added that is a problem here. Progress also include making technology = easier to manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible = to average network engineers. Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is = achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is = nothing left to take away.=E2=80=9D Cheers, Sander ------=_NextPart_000_0131_01D56894.4213F3B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, Robert:

 

But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service = instruction separation; different instruction carried in different IPv6 = EH). =C2=A0It conforms to RFC8200 as well, seems will be less resisted = within 6man WG.

Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related = technologies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ = J.

We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR = technologies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of = SR/SRv6/SRv6+ technologies.

 

Best Regards.

 

Aijun Wang

China Telecom

 

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Robert Raszuk
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 1:34
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander = Steffann
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; = Andrew Alston; James Guichard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali = (zali); Voyer, Daniel
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to = the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond = SRv6.)

 

Hi Sander,

 

You keep saying SRv6 is complex. = But it is only as complex as you are going to make it or as you will = need it to be. 

 

No one is mandating you to do any = network programming or to use multiple TLVs. If you just need to use SR = for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs and you are done. If you want to = also enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty much identical way = regardless if this is SRv6 or = SRv6+. 

 

I know I am not going to convince = you, but just for the record it is worh to note that what get's send on = the wire is only the information what you as the vendor need. The fact = that spec has prepared encoding to also be useful for not only you but = other operators does not make the solution "complex".  = Otherwise we will end up with protocol per customer which would be = pretty bad I am afraid. 

 

See many people say BGP is complex = ... and it is the same here - BGP is as complex as you require it to be. = You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of config. But if you need other = address families if you need fancy policy you have all required tools = for that on your keyboard. 

 

- - = - 

 

Now point about SRv6+ ... see = writing a drafts for it easy, Further even writing interop draft with = SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two and you submit. But please = tell me why any vendor who has been working in open IETF process on any = new service for over 5 years now would have to put a lot of development = resources on the table to develop data plane and control plane = enhancements for essentially subset of functionality at best = ? 

 

It is nothing about anyone's good = will or not ... it is all about limited resources. Features and = extensions are not added to any vendor based on the RFC translation = engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So without huge = market demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any vendor who = committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support for = SRv6+.

 

Thank = you,

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM = Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> = wrote:

Hi,

> No. = And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting trapped = in the SRv6 walled garden.
>
> The way IETF works (at least = in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do not like a specific element = of a solution or if something is missing from any solution during WG = process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to make sure the WG = product is the best possible.
>
> So nothing prevented you = for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6 process to take an = active part in its standardization.
>
> Asking for adoption = of solution which brings nothing new to already shipping solution of = SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best = counterproductive.

No, something that today can do the same as = SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with lots of space for future expansion, is = something I like to see. Using IPv6 instead of MPLS already gives the = benefit of unifying transport technologies. I'm not waiting for = something feature packed with so many knobs and "special" = (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be much harder = to work with.

> It is like now you would be asking to adopt = some individual drafts which woke up and defined new data plane and new = control plane for services you are running in your network - and call = those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new = functionality.

That "without any new functionality" = isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6

> Would it make sense = ?

If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier = way to do those things? Most definitely yes.

It's the measuring = progress by how many features and "cool" things are added that = is a problem here. Progress also include making technology easier to = manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible to = average network engineers.

Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was = right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more = to add, but when there is nothing left to take = away.=E2=80=9D

Cheers,
Sander

------=_NextPart_000_0131_01D56894.4213F3B0-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 20:46:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 416911208A8 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:46:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ha7JJVIPtfNA for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF664120870 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id t11so9545315plo.0 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:45:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=t3FAcRHgQVwNyo+Tsr8EdUI/v73HPZqCwLeVOSFT6b0=; b=pbkNb9Ez5nEMMB+VRQvE3jTuRufMcFulqVLAFc5iP+A8AkVol1OGeeJRMGm7LB2UKv UHYZCPVWA0BWswMnH2AwojW6kv+7qYRxwqmeq8Uk/3i1Te9xsr64bJ9DJv8Q41VBJN0a E1Zxp3Xjpv/e+5dfFM2aRu1TVdQKXMAyLGU56hY+yS0C16ZbBYLSi4Ze7qxNttF5ndoZ 1brmPU1Fb23rZtrfIMC4IKEHMmF+82JO8kW+rbDkRHmQkFM5rV/nGcozYpMKP18/ZjWv E4AYpaxXKel/jE8WiigVBqsdo0MYMG9kNHZhxe+iQmd/8GLx7TrXtCKNKJDmXqJ+DTzD ScpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=t3FAcRHgQVwNyo+Tsr8EdUI/v73HPZqCwLeVOSFT6b0=; b=nJicaPZgJOsMY1y77ibdSkWO9AA42MgcplR3acOsxZ/iF1egFBgmEZoB619ayhS/i6 R/F61VmEm2JjncOudC5ClqcOMf9kPmp9wb0dzYDueFj9sQJnkcvfN7UhLxZKORkDUXu0 DB4Uj2IoByTSZ0ir3Yf7UU6DzvNL/TIBNZGn5uTOkOdF5j9uqfr/Vf9W2F8sA/eeSQc2 cE+vnJDdvOCwglRXS4G0vaQ+MbPZIwSt3YXTNmyyD3BTAPv/Ci+W2LK+CIZDNe72wIXP KJaAo4yQW0febNXOXXq1rWqeU0RheTiRpo5B4oRk6XLWSHONKESMlwhx0C9LFtcyCfUK bLmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVI+BztBEZ5P7Y/Sni4xrdx92Hs54Y5/ieWxgXQE0GAilh5jl17 W05zwvopQ2IzfMtbkRxJIP4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz3GsiI7sCH7nJUayKr8mGku2SDPjHmxzLRZ+CVapW9liEPps+PgySajmY+XCXjQjKdeA+nIg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:a410:: with SMTP id p16mr4677213plq.151.1568173557890; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.207.114.140] ([202.45.12.164]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f12sm16912098pgo.85.2019.09.10.20.45.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Sep 2019 20:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-3B9141B4-188C-43E2-91DA-B6232E193D66 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Satoru Matsushima X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <013001d56851$33f0b3b0$9bd21b10$@org.cn> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 12:45:55 +0900 Cc: Robert Raszuk , Sander Steffann , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Voyer, Daniel" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> <013001d56851$33f0b3b0$9bd21b10$@org.cn> To: Aijun Wang Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgR29pbmcgYmFjayB0byB0aGUgb3JpZ2lu?= =?utf-8?q?al_question_for_the_Spring_WG_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Beyond_SRv6=2E=29?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:46:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail-3B9141B4-188C-43E2-91DA-B6232E193D66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Aijun, > =20 > But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service inst= ruction separation; The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC8402: =E2=80=9CAbstract Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm. A node steers a p= acket through an ordered list of instructions, called "segments". A segment c= an represent any instruction, topological or service based.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9C3.1.3. SRv6=20 When SR is used over the IPv6 data plane:=20 o A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address.=20 o An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID. IPv6 node addresses a= re not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D > different instruction carried in different IPv6 EH). It conforms to RFC82= 00 as well, seems will be less resisted within 6man WG. SRH conforms RFC8200. > Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related technologie= s in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J. SRH has already accelerated SRv6 deployments.=20 Best regards, =E2=80=94satoru > We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR technologi= es aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of SR/SRv6/SRv6+ tec= hnologies. > =20 > Best Regards. > =20 > Aijun Wang > China Telecom > =20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:spring-bounce= s@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Robert Raszuk > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 1= :34 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander Steffann > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James Guich= ard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for t= he Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) > =20 > Hi Sander, > =20 > You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are goin= g to make it or as you will need it to be.=20 > =20 > No one is mandating you to do any network programming or to use multiple T= LVs. If you just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs and y= ou are done. If you want to also enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty muc= h identical way regardless if this is SRv6 or SRv6+.=20 > =20 > I know I am not going to convince you, but just for the record it is worh t= o note that what get's send on the wire is only the information what you as t= he vendor need. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be useful f= or not only you but other operators does not make the solution "complex". O= therwise we will end up with protocol per customer which would be pretty bad= I am afraid.=20 > =20 > See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is the same here - BGP is a= s complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of co= nfig. But if you need other address families if you need fancy policy you ha= ve all required tools for that on your keyboard.=20 > =20 > - - -=20 > =20 > Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further even w= riting interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two and you= submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been working in open IETF= process on any new service for over 5 years now would have to put a lot of d= evelopment resources on the table to develop data plane and control plane en= hancements for essentially subset of functionality at best ?=20 > =20 > It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limited r= esources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor based on the R= FC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So withou= t huge market demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any vendor who= committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support for SRv6+. > =20 > Thank you, > R. > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann wrote= : > Hi, >=20 > > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting trapp= ed in the SRv6 walled garden. > >=20 > > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do n= ot like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from any= solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to ma= ke sure the WG product is the best possible. > >=20 > > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SR= v6 process to take an active part in its standardization. > >=20 > > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already ship= ping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best c= ounterproductive. >=20 > No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with lo= ts of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IPv6 ins= tead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport technologies. I= 'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many knobs and "special"= (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be much harder to w= ork with. >=20 > > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts which= woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services you a= re running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ w= ithout any new functionality. >=20 > That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6 >=20 > > Would it make sense ? >=20 > If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do t= hose things? Most definitely yes. >=20 > It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are add= ed that is a problem here. Progress also include making technology easier to= manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible to average n= etwork engineers. >=20 > Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved, n= ot when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take= away.=E2=80=9D >=20 > Cheers, > Sander >=20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-3B9141B4-188C-43E2-91DA-B6232E193D66 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Aijun,

 

But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SR= v6(topology/service instruction separation;


The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC= 8402:

=E2=80=9CAbstract


   Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  A node
   steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called
   "segments".  A segment can represent any instruction, topological or =
;ser=
vice based.=E2=80=9D

=E2=80=9C3.1.3.  SRv6
 
=

 When SR is used over=
 the IPv6 data plane: 

 o  A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address.&nbs=
p;
 o  An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID.  IPv6 node=

      addresses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D


different instruction carried in different IPv6 EH).  It conforms= to RFC8200 as well, seems will be less resisted within 6man WG.

<= /div>

SRH conforms RFC8200.
=

Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related techno= logies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J.


SRH has already accelerated SRv6 deployments.=  

Best regards,
=E2=80=94satoru
=

<= /span>

We= have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR technologies a= ims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of SR/SRv6/SRv6+ technol= ogies.

 

Best Regards.

 

Aijun Wang

China Telecom

 

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA= =BA: spring-bounces@ie= tf.org [mailto:spring-bounces= @ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8= Robert Raszuk=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97= =B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 1:34
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander Steffann
=E6=8A=84= =E9=80=81: Ron Bonica; S= PRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James Guichard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Za= far Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to the origi= nal question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

Hi Sander,

 

You ke= ep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are going to mak= e it or as you will need it to be. 

 

No one is mandating you to do= any network programming or to use multiple TLVs. If you just need to use SR= for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs and you are done. If you want to al= so enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty much identical way regardless if t= his is SRv6 or SRv6+. 

 

I know I am not going to convince you, but j= ust for the record it is worh to note that what get's send on the wire is on= ly the information what you as the vendor need. The fact that spec has prepa= red encoding to also be useful for not only you but other operators does not= make the solution "complex".  Otherwise we will end up with protocol p= er customer which would be pretty bad I am afraid. 

 

See many peo= ple say BGP is complex .... and it is the same here - BGP is as complex as y= ou require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of config. But if y= ou need other address families if you need fancy policy you have all require= d tools for that on your keyboard. 

 

- - - =

 =

Now point a= bout SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further even writing intero= p draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two and you submit. But p= lease tell me why any vendor who has been working in open IETF process on an= y new service for over 5 years now would have to put a lot of development re= sources on the table to develop data plane and control plane enhancements fo= r essentially subset of functionality at best ? 

<= /div>

 

It is nothing a= bout anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limited resources. Featur= es and extensions are not added to any vendor based on the RFC translation e= ngine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So without huge market de= mand behind it I would be highly surprised if any vendor who committed to SR= v6 already would now take real on support for SRv6+.

 

Thank you,<= /o:p>

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<= /div>

 

 

On Tue, S= ep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

Hi,

> No. And that is why I= want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting trapped in the SRv6 walled gar= den.
>
> The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) i= s that if you do not like a specific element of a solution or if something i= s missing from any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to eith= er fix it or to make sure the WG product is the best possible.
>
&= gt; So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SR= v6 process to take an active part in its standardization.
>
> A= sking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already shipping s= olution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best counter= productive.

No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but o= ver IPv6, with lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to se= e. Using IPv6 instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transpor= t technologies. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many kn= obs and "special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be= much harder to work with.

> It is like now you would be asking to= adopt some individual drafts which woke up and defined new data plane and n= ew control plane for services you are running in your network - and call tho= se MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality.

Tha= t "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6

= > Would it make sense ?

If those data plane and control plane draf= ts provide an easier way to do those things? Most definitely yes.

It'= s the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are added th= at is a problem here. Progress also include making technology easier to mana= ge, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible to average networ= k engineers.

Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfec= tion is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is n= othing left to take away.=E2=80=9D

Cheers,
Sander

<= div dir=3D"ltr">_______________________________________________=
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
= --Apple-Mail-3B9141B4-188C-43E2-91DA-B6232E193D66-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 21:05:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24210120804 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:05:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YlVcrVv30vzq for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5C0A1200C7 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id w6so12998245oie.11 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:05:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=G769gBbz+tbdqHnY456B37690vPWdAi7ZwrxvmyXOog=; b=HkSR5fx2aSPoofeC+AWfQ/ZIJVIsJQfSeLSWjl1hSIHBtIfN2BM+Slo8n7kqDc/8Jq Jhj8jPlupuzDKqqOIFBZe+RHur6Qzd5p6gZFtwGCjhRuxDDGHstLDPCmYDV11l5VaLWi 3nqvJRyGBUD5k66NZhVLkNzAtEmO9ap5rk309GQHv2YWsSJqWs/CzrNyTvLT9Z+OxcKT Wo1LJ5KwvTe9p2EJTR331LdNo2dFTmBGIdnILdpZ9xJm43Azmpc13aU3DvN8KYc2DwZZ 7dSadGtSrIAmXfVjWVE0AEOkeKjmOW1MvODElkovupHpnYXHDW7Wlr5286vRG5AuB2tP 4Sfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=G769gBbz+tbdqHnY456B37690vPWdAi7ZwrxvmyXOog=; b=cX53pcCWo5zulaUNMBEULpp7lF1fjJIRkQOLQ6pTdSaACWpMTSu/3u3uXbN3pZH1Sq xO5iSDguLRaJr5fDBEueb4bAvSetm5uibAqC4yLil6LcjIk/GrLsJCVEPViofFioMJj4 ww3ZgVljiAydfwpKE8YsLJN/lNsErREGdmdXm2U4zFOKwsdf5vGS5Kg640ggCpWQ44B9 I4c2ps7R6T9UzWIcPCcftsUDF6ljvqNYcH8RAU6gtuCnEdBn2oEYDVS8jziJkSpKbQe5 rANJTDnXUWZwgyjbz1RKth+p+CMMIDa7mCGLHfYYxjzUyDyIiINdFrBhOkFzua5UNW3p PPQA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWDgR1xzWuixaClx1zxNn/JkBy4YGMUdHNTMEOmpIz8lK8TKvxS 1TuN12r44UDNd3q4JJfRLsk8TBwQ0pezmTcg8qc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxJt8ieAdWSSEfkL8KhzGq/Xnf3ffyqIW591d8gFSjTUucQ9KOV82Vyfm2QSHCGBDTaWcL1BtdekqnyFfSyo0k= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5588:: with SMTP id j130mr2452042oib.38.1568174735846; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:05:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> <013001d56851$33f0b3b0$9bd21b10$@org.cn> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:35:24 +0930 Message-ID: To: Satoru Matsushima Cc: Aijun Wang , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Robert Raszuk , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , Sander Steffann , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Voyer, Daniel" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013735205923f227e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBHb2luZyBiYWNrIHRvIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5h?= =?utf-8?q?l_question_for_the_Spring_WG_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Beyond_SRv6=2E=29?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 04:05:39 -0000 --00000000000013735205923f227e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 13:46 Satoru Matsushima, wrote: > Hi Aijun, > > > > But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service > instruction separation; > > > The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC8402: > > =E2=80=9CAbstract > > > Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm. A node > steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called > "segments". A segment can represent any instruction, topological or s= ervice based.=E2=80=9D > > > =E2=80=9C3.1.3 . SRv6 > > > When SR is used over the IPv6 data plane: > > > o A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address. > > o An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID. IPv6 node > addresses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D > > > > different instruction carried in different IPv6 EH). It conforms to > RFC8200 as well, seems will be less resisted within 6man WG. > > > SRH conforms RFC8200. > This SPRING WG draft does not. draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 It is referring to the ID which has not been adopted by 6man, has been ignoring many of the points brought up about it by 6man, and has proposed Information status. draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-05 I would think that a Standards Track ID/RFC cannot depend on an Informational ID/RFC for any formal functionality. > > Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related > technologies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J. > > > SRH has already accelerated SRv6 deployments. > > Best regards, > =E2=80=94satoru > > We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR > technologies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of > SR/SRv6/SRv6+ technologies. > > > > Best Regards. > > > > Aijun Wang > > China Telecom > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* spring-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:spring-bou= nces@ietf.org > ] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Robert Raszuk > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97= =A5 1:34 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Sander Steffann > *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:* Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James Gu= ichard; Shraddha > Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* Re: [spring] Going back to the original question fo= r the Spring WG > (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) > > > > Hi Sander, > > > > You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are > going to make it or as you will need it to be. > > > > No one is mandating you to do any network programming or to use multiple > TLVs. If you just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs > and you are done. If you want to also enable L3VPN you configure it in > pretty much identical way regardless if this is SRv6 or SRv6+. > > > > I know I am not going to convince you, but just for the record it is worh > to note that what get's send on the wire is only the information what you > as the vendor need. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be > useful for not only you but other operators does not make the solution > "complex". Otherwise we will end up with protocol per customer which wou= ld > be pretty bad I am afraid. > > > > See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is the same here - BGP is > as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines o= f > config. But if you need other address families if you need fancy policy y= ou > have all required tools for that on your keyboard. > > > > - - - > > > > Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further even > writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two and > you submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been working in ope= n > IETF process on any new service for over 5 years now would have to put a > lot of development resources on the table to develop data plane and contr= ol > plane enhancements for essentially subset of functionality at best ? > > > > It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limited > resources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor based on t= he > RFC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So > without huge market demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any > vendor who committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support for > SRv6+. > > > > Thank you, > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann > wrote: > > Hi, > > > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting > trapped in the SRv6 walled garden. > > > > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do > not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from > any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or > to make sure the WG product is the best possible. > > > > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with > SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. > > > > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already > shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at > best counterproductive. > > No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with > lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IPv= 6 > instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport > technologies. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many > knobs and "special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it wi= ll > be much harder to work with. > > > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts whic= h > woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services you > are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and > mVPN+ without any new functionality. > > That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6 > > > Would it make sense ? > > If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do > those things? Most definitely yes. > > It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are > added that is a problem here. Progress also include making technology > easier to manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible = to > average network engineers. > > Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved,= not when > there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away= .=E2=80=9D > > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000013735205923f227e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 13:46 Satoru Matsushima, <satoru.matsushima@gmail.com> w= rote:
Hi Aijun,

= =C2=A0

But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(t= opology/service instruction separation;

=

The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC8= 402:

=E2=80=9CAbstract


   Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  A node
   steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called
   "segments".  A segment can represent any instruction, topologi=
cal or=C2=A0service based.=E2=80=9D

=E2=80=9C=
3.1.3.  SRv6=C2=A0
<=
font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleTallBody">
=C2=A0When S=
R is used over the IPv6 data plane:=C2=A0

<=
/font>
=C2=A0o  A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0o  An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID.  IPv6=
 node
      addresses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D
<= /div>


different instruction carried in d= ifferent IPv6 EH).=C2=A0 It conforms to RFC8200 as well, seems will be less= resisted within 6man WG.


SRH conforms RFC8200.


This S= PRING WG draft does not.


draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01



=

<=
h1 style=3D"line-height:0pt;display:inline;font-size:1em">
<=
/pre>
It is referring to the ID whic=
h has not been adopted by 6man, has been ignoring many of the points brough=
t up about it by 6man, and has proposed Information status.


draft-voyer-6man-ex=
tension-header-insertion-05


I would think that a Stan= dards Track ID/RFC cannot depend on an Informational ID/RFC for any formal = functionality.



Will such enhanc= ements accelerate the deployment of SR related technologies in service prov= ider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J.

=
SRH has already accelerated SRv6 deployments.=C2=A0

Best regards,
=E2=80=94satoru

We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios t= hat the SR technologies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advanc= e of SR/SRv6/SRv6+ technologies.

=C2=A0<= /p>

Best Regards.<= /u>

=C2=A0=

Aijun Wan= g

C= hina Telecom

=C2=A0

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA= =BA: spring-bo= unces@ietf.org [mailto= :spring-bounces@ietf.org] = =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Robert Raszuk
=E5=8F=91=E9= =80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 1:34
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB= =B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander S= teffann
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James Guichar= d; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: R= e: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re:= Beyond SRv6.)

= =C2=A0

Hi Sander,

=C2=A0

You keep saying SRv6 is comp= lex. But it is only as complex as you are going to make it or as you will n= eed it to be.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

No one is mandating you to do any netwo= rk programming or to use multiple TLVs. If you just need to use SR for basi= c TE you insert one or two SIDs and you are done. If you want to also enabl= e L3VPN you configure it in pretty much identical way regardless if this is= SRv6 or SRv6+.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I know I am not going to convince you,= but just for the record it is worh to note that what get's send on the= wire is only the information what you as the vendor need. The fact that sp= ec has prepared encoding to also be useful for not only you but other opera= tors does not make the solution "complex".=C2=A0 Otherwise we wil= l end up with protocol per customer which would be pretty bad I am afraid.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is the= same here - BGP is as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP = 1/1 with 4 lines of config. But if you need other address families if you n= eed fancy policy you have all required tools for that on your keyboard.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Now point about SRv6+ ... se= e writing a drafts for it easy, Further even writing interop draft with SRv= 6 is also not that complex - day or two and you submit. But please tell me = why any vendor who has been working in open IETF process on any new service= for over 5 years now would have to put a lot of development resources on t= he table to develop data plane and control plane enhancements for essential= ly subset of functionality at best ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

It is nothing abo= ut anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limited resources. Fea= tures and extensions are not added to any vendor based on the RFC translati= on engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So without huge mark= et demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any vendor who committed= to SRv6 already would now take real on support for SRv6+.

=C2= =A0

Thank you,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

On Tue, Sep 10,= 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

Hi,

> No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, t= o avoid getting trapped in the SRv6 walled garden.
>
> The way= IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do not like a= specific element of a solution or if something is missing from any solutio= n during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to make sure= the WG product is the best possible.
>
> So nothing prevented= you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6 process to take an a= ctive part in its standardization.
>
> Asking for adoption of = solution which brings nothing new to already shipping solution of SR-MPLS w= hen it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best counterproductive.

= No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with lot= s of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IPv6 ins= tead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport technologies. = I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many knobs and &qu= ot;special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be= much harder to work with.

> It is like now you would be asking t= o adopt some individual drafts which woke up and defined new data plane and= new control plane for services you are running in your network - and call = those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality.
That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true eith= er=E2=80=A6

> Would it make sense ?

If those data plane an= d control plane drafts provide an easier way to do those things? Most defin= itely yes.

It's the measuring progress by how many features and = "cool" things are added that is a problem here. Progress also inc= lude making technology easier to manage, easier to understand, easier to de= bug, more accessible to average network engineers.

Antoine de Saint = Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved, not when there is = nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.=E2=80=9D<= br>
Cheers,
Sander

<= /div>
________= _______________________________________
spring mailing list=
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mustapha, The RFC8287 refers to OSPF and not OSPFv2. Conventionally, we use the term = OSPF when we are referring to both OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. I am not sure if this= was the authors' objective. One might assume that OSPFv2 is purely for IPv4 and OSPFv3 for IPv6, but th= is is not true (see RFC5838). I would it is better to have two separate code-points for OSPFv2 and OSPFv3= in this case. Thanks, Ketan From: mpls On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com Sent: 09 September 2019 18:23 To: Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) ; m= pls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-spring-lsp-ping@ietf.org Cc: spring@ietf.org Subject: Re: [mpls] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LS= P-Trace RFC 8287 is a product of the MPLS WG so in the absence of answer on the SPR= ING mailing list, I'm redirecting the question to the MPLS WG. --Bruno From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Aissaoui, Mustap= ha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 12:29 AM To: spring@ietf.org Subject: [spring] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LSP-= Trace Dear all, I am not sure if this was discussed during the development of RFC 8287 - "L= abel Switched Path (LSP) Ping/Traceroute for Segment Routing (SR) IGP-Prefi= x and IGP-Adjacency Segment Identifiers (SIDs) with= MPLS Data Planes", but I could not find anything in the SPRING mail archiv= e. Prefix SID and adjacency SID which are originated in an OSPFv3 instance (IP= v4 or IPv6 instance) do not have a protocol ID assigned to them in the Segm= ent ID Sub-TLV, as well as in the Label Stack Sub-TLV of the Downstream Det= ailed Mapping TLV. Should we assign the next available IANA codepoint values or was there a ra= tionale for omitting them? Regards, Mustapha. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_CY4PR11MB15419D138E137579AF1E9F17C1B10CY4PR11MB1541namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mustapha,

 

The RFC8287 refers to OSPF and not OSPFv2. Conventio= nally, we use the term OSPF when we are referring to both OSPFv2 and OSPFv3= . I am not sure if this was the authors’ objective.

 

One might assume that OSPFv2 is purely for IPv4 and = OSPFv3 for IPv6, but this is not true (see RFC5838).

 

I would it is better to have two separate code-point= s for OSPFv2 and OSPFv3 in this case.

 

Thanks,

Ketan

 

From: mpls <mpls-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: 09 September 2019 18:23
To: Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <mustapha.aissaoui@nok= ia.com>; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-spring-lsp-ping@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [mpls] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping= and LSP-Trace

 

RFC 828= 7 is a product of the MPLS WG so in the absence of answer on the SPRING mai= ling list, I’m redirecting the question to the MPLS WG.

&n= bsp;

--Bruno=

&n= bsp;

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@i= etf.org] On Behalf Of Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 12:29 AM
To: spring@ietf.org
Subject: [spring] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping a= nd LSP-Trace

=  

Dear all,=

I am not = sure if this was discussed during the development of RFC 8287 – ̶= 0;Label Switched Path (LSP) Ping/Traceroute for Segment Routing (SR) IGP-Prefix and IGP-Adjacency Segment Identifiers (SIDs)   &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;         with MPLS Data Plan= es”, but I could not find anything in the SPRING mail archive.

&nbs= p;

Prefix SI= D and adjacency SID which are originated in an OSPFv3 instance (IPv4 or IPv= 6 instance) do not have a protocol ID assigned to them in the Segment ID Sub-TLV, as well as in the Label Stack Sub-TLV of t= he Downstream Detailed Mapping TLV.

&nbs= p;

Should we= assign the next available IANA codepoint values or was there a rationale f= or omitting them?

&nbs= p;

Regards,<= o:p>

Mustapha.= 

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>
 
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a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
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If you have received this email in error, please not=
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essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--_000_CY4PR11MB15419D138E137579AF1E9F17C1B10CY4PR11MB1541namp_-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 21:21:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5431208D3 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GoaCnyyB4jVT for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x430.google.com (mail-pf1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2A91208C3 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x430.google.com with SMTP id q5so12792874pfg.13 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:21:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GUiFRMyFaWklrRgqawl6/7+91GwhZuuzFP+ajXBh1Gg=; b=p8wUywOB98rKrXdj8A+YWgaCiJutzQFYifwsfdMUoz6tCz6ovG7CsJ9+0yyv0VFUOa /022dxcoJf2wAhzRADavxcbt3lizW7Jzi4pAlguj/tC+MwfYqz8dYUhwNEy1VBDYnE1L JK+uoGjsMSW/1oRnjQdylr7QPHLP1qifTgiXbWAcfU4xxAgCP9g8tVCbkTA73jYaN7VD tFW9SbLvd5u7BNg+I7R7B6cUQmsBns9NUWoKC8o7OEnwG5LBQd95AlY1jl6LQ4DvI7Qq BaC7NHgp/fgnLowMstFXOAtdZuaPR7/Lejsn+snN+XiM8E0o4bpTmk6CWAO9bHmP7Mxl gnJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GUiFRMyFaWklrRgqawl6/7+91GwhZuuzFP+ajXBh1Gg=; b=pkQroueANi3vQE4Zdjuv4FgHLsjSzlAmpNwxOgTddAl1Gw5AR2cyJbg6pKFVZRx6Cd AcJizCP8hjm2IRF3fRv6s0NBlSNAMBt3W9Frusfs5sedd1rygZL/AjOmrvuLuBuAfnLq pPSdg6DaHHbnVGfq8jsrMXbpsE4477iN8AJH9SRkZy6EsoZygG8ABQR//LOPEXH91M11 I++woIXqE9W3aETuqrOnul6SaTiRLI4LYfR/Rm3Jk6HJlJP6zg0F5rIPQxaTTaUDDJGP +zXjas28vuTg/cC+KwWwJDr8eOpbTbKyNr2x48A0NJzzX9C9jz9BKWr7Sn/bVaPsLKW9 XfuA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXGTHjZnbIjqc12PfnRa1uPzMcc0ao+J5OK7i4zsgw/YPygPyX1 FIEsXb757gP9V8S0t6mKEno= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyphwSA4lPhFsGQQ2Q/KhjOLwkWtBVOhbKFchJ7I4Kg37NJOBYW8yZVLtPrGHQ5hvlBlZ+upw== X-Received: by 2002:a62:3342:: with SMTP id z63mr22965310pfz.222.1568175675801; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.207.114.140] ([202.45.12.164]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q204sm28546643pfc.11.2019.09.10.21.21.13 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Sep 2019 21:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-E86753D7-5E05-44D4-A029-341948E22687 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Satoru Matsushima X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:21:12 +0900 Cc: Aijun Wang , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Robert Raszuk , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , Sander Steffann , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Voyer, Daniel" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5C256124-BBD6-4087-9F3F-860A41FDFDF2@gmail.com> References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> <013001d56851$33f0b3b0$9bd21b10$@org.cn> To: Mark Smith Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBHb2luZyBiYWNrIHRvIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5h?= =?utf-8?q?l_question_for_the_Spring_WG_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Beyond_SRv6=2E=29?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 04:21:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail-E86753D7-5E05-44D4-A029-341948E22687 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 >> On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 13:46 Satoru Matsushima, wrote: >> Hi Aijun, >>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service in= struction separation; >>>=20 >>=20 >> The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC8402: >>=20 >> =E2=80=9CAbstract >>=20 >> Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm. A node steers= a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called "segments". A segm= ent can represent any instruction, topological or service based.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> =E2=80=9C3.1.3. SRv6=20 >>=20 >> When SR is used over the IPv6 data plane:=20 >>=20 >> o A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address.=20 >> o An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID. IPv6 node address= es are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >>=20 >>> different instruction carried in different IPv6 EH). It conforms to RFC= 8200 as well, seems will be less resisted within 6man WG. >>>=20 >>=20 >> SRH conforms RFC8200. >=20 >=20 >=20 > This SPRING WG draft does not. My point was on SRH. Good to see you have no comment on that. >=20 >=20 > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > It is referring to the ID which has not been adopted by 6man, has been ign= oring many of the points brought up about it by 6man, and has proposed Infor= mation status. >=20 >=20 > draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-05 >=20 >=20 > I would think that a Standards Track ID/RFC cannot depend on an Informatio= nal ID/RFC for any formal functionality. Fine. =E2=80=94satoru >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related technolog= ies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J. >>>=20 >>=20 >> SRH has already accelerated SRv6 deployments.=20 >>=20 >> Best regards, >> =E2=80=94satoru >>=20 >>> We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR technolo= gies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of SR/SRv6/SRv6+ t= echnologies. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Best Regards. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Aijun Wang >>>=20 >>> China Telecom >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:spring-boun= ces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Robert Raszuk >>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5= 1:34 >>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander Steffann >>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James Gui= chard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel >>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for= the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Hi Sander, >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are go= ing to make it or as you will need it to be.=20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> No one is mandating you to do any network programming or to use multiple= TLVs. If you just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs an= d you are done. If you want to also enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty m= uch identical way regardless if this is SRv6 or SRv6+.=20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> I know I am not going to convince you, but just for the record it is wor= h to note that what get's send on the wire is only the information what you a= s the vendor need. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be usefu= l for not only you but other operators does not make the solution "complex".= Otherwise we will end up with protocol per customer which would be pretty b= ad I am afraid.=20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is the same here - BGP is= as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of c= onfig. But if you need other address families if you need fancy policy you h= ave all required tools for that on your keyboard.=20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> - - -=20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further even= writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two and y= ou submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been working in open IE= TF process on any new service for over 5 years now would have to put a lot o= f development resources on the table to develop data plane and control plane= enhancements for essentially subset of functionality at best ?=20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limite= d resources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor based on th= e RFC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So wit= hout huge market demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any vendor w= ho committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support for SRv6+. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Thank you, >>>=20 >>> R. >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann wro= te: >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting tra= pped in the SRv6 walled garden. >>> >=20 >>> > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you d= o not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from a= ny solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to m= ake sure the WG product is the best possible. >>> >=20 >>> > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with S= Rv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. >>> >=20 >>> > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already sh= ipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best= counterproductive. >>>=20 >>> No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with l= ots of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IPv6 in= stead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport technologies. I= 'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many knobs and "special"= (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be much harder to w= ork with. >>>=20 >>> > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts whi= ch woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services you= are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN= + without any new functionality. >>>=20 >>> That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6 >>>=20 >>> > Would it make sense ? >>>=20 >>> If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do= those things? Most definitely yes. >>>=20 >>> It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are a= dded that is a problem here. Progress also include making technology easier t= o manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible to average n= etwork engineers. >>>=20 >>> Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved= , not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to t= ake away.=E2=80=9D >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>> Sander >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-E86753D7-5E05-44D4-A029-341948E22687 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 13:46 Satoru Matsushima, <satoru.matsushima@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Aijun,

<= div dir=3D"ltr">

 =

But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service ins= truction separation;


= The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC8402:

=E2=80=9CAbstr= act

   Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  A node
   steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called
   "segments".  A segment can represent any instruction, topological or =
;service b=
ased.=E2=80=9D

<=
h4 style=3D"line-height:0pt;display:inline">=E2=80=9C3.1.3.  SRv6 =


 When SR is used over the IPv6 data plane: =
;

 o  A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 ad=
dress. 
 o  An operator MUST explicitly instantia=
te an SRv6 SID.  IPv6 node
      addresses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D


different instruction carried in differen= t IPv6 EH).  It conforms to RFC8200 as well, seems will be less resiste= d within 6man WG.


SRH= conforms RFC8200.


This SPRING WG dr= aft does not.

My point was= on SRH. Good to see you have no comment on that.



draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01




<= pre style=3D"font-size:12.6667px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">

It is referring to the ID which has not= been adopted by 6man, has been ignoring many of the points brought up about= it by 6man, and has proposed Information status.



draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-0= 5



<= /div>
I would think that a Standards Track ID/RFC cannot de= pend on an Informational ID/RFC for any formal functionality.

Fine.
=E2=80=94satoru



Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR relat= ed technologies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J.


SRH has already accelerated SRv6 dep= loyments. 

Best regards,
=E2=80=94sa= toru

We have our own solutions for the sim= ilar scenarios that the SR technologies aims to solve, but will also keep ey= e on the advance of SR/SRv6/SRv6+ technologies.

 =

Best Regards.

=  

Aijun W= ang

Ch= ina Telecom

 

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@iet= f.org [mailto:spring-bou= nces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1= =A8 Robert Raszuk=
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9= =97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 1:34
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander Steffann
=E6=8A= =84=E9=80=81: Ron Bonic= a; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James Guichard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir= ; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to the ori= ginal question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 <= u>

Hi Sander,=

 

You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you ar= e going to make it or as you will need it to be. <= /p>

 

No one i= s mandating you to do any network programming or to use multiple TLVs. If yo= u just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs and you are do= ne. If you want to also enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty much identic= al way regardless if this is SRv6 or SRv6+. 

 

I know I am n= ot going to convince you, but just for the record it is worh to note that wh= at get's send on the wire is only the information what you as the vendor nee= d. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be useful for not only y= ou but other operators does not make the solution "complex".  Otherwise= we will end up with protocol per customer which would be pretty bad I am af= raid. 

 

See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is th= e same here - BGP is as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1= /1 with 4 lines of config. But if you need other address families if you nee= d fancy policy you have all required tools for that on your keyboard. <= u>

 

- - - 

 

Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a= drafts for it easy, Further even writing interop draft with SRv6 is also no= t that complex - day or two and you submit. But please tell me why any vendo= r who has been working in open IETF process on any new service for over 5 ye= ars now would have to put a lot of development resources on the table to dev= elop data plane and control plane enhancements for essentially subset of fun= ctionality at best ? 

 

It is nothing about anyone's good wi= ll or not ... it is all about limited resources. Features and extensions are= not added to any vendor based on the RFC translation engine. It is pretty d= ifficult and painful process. So without huge market demand behind it I woul= d be highly surprised if any vendor who committed to SRv6 already would now t= ake real on support for SRv6+.

 

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you,

R.

 =

=  

 

 

 

 

 

 

&n= bsp;

 

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

Hi,

> No. And that is why I want SRv= 6+ to move forward, to avoid getting trapped in the SRv6 walled garden.
&= gt;
> The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that i= f you do not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missin= g from any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix i= t or to make sure the WG product is the best possible.
>
> So n= othing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6 proce= ss to take an active part in its standardization.
>
> Asking fo= r adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already shipping solution= of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best counterproduct= ive.

No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv= 6, with lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Usin= g IPv6 instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport techn= ologies. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many knobs and= "special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be much h= arder to work with.

> It is like now you would be asking to adopt s= ome individual drafts which woke up and defined new data plane and new contr= ol plane for services you are running in your network - and call those MPLS+= , L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality.

That "witho= ut any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6

> Wou= ld it make sense ?

If those data plane and control plane drafts provi= de an easier way to do those things? Most definitely yes.

It's the me= asuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are added that is a p= roblem here. Progress also include making technology easier to manage, easie= r to understand, easier to debug, more accessible to average network enginee= rs.

Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is a= chieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing le= ft to take away.=E2=80=9D

Cheers,
Sander

<= /blockquote>
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
____________________________________= ___________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BOvl9XJiTl1mKcSqvTdrFjgA4yCcpviQ9OJbNnahrsc=; b=E8b+LFeEgid618XMq0sBx7rzUxoNsuWugkfltKtfxjkSidUEaVL7ejC8OogVnYRrHN QrZAKUfi498JDW496r9fwaxe851O5kcZ3YamPR/HWDNS+aYMGAAR79S++TxQoEZ58mu9 UMvUULZSqFQFdG28SucbTOdF0756DXPLqPVL4pdoKK+8aMBUD2Xz+YIdCi/OI3yqV4+U +YZBe7xfrTMcgSjEpobLN8nktfJ70QMi3ftH7qGpwXvbxQtslmp3UhApYyDMqsPo5sYM lSZ6AVCtINU8+uJP6DIXLHXJJjyvPBGHtcy/cOeRTUdXIpRU4dfLTQT7GPWE4l6XLeEU VSkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BOvl9XJiTl1mKcSqvTdrFjgA4yCcpviQ9OJbNnahrsc=; b=K7qRvbjwVWurTr6aGcDc476h4a9yGfjCQgwmeXuX/MDXRbjJ3CGMOvmXSj/u6KGsIi QwcnCeIQvMyqXsTvmTNWQC+8hJVRNBjbnvTckwOUMb9m+0MBcpqJWZzIOxOEZ8fOoHrP E0ZZ/3d5BcVjvI6SLrNneVXGaT1whrt2h97CObP8mU+rLjd2WhsqsHyWkIpCR/juU7KS q+sDmm0jg0fouNp8NBPuUsCzJ/+Y57o8Xew2v/PazATLmSo6yvJTBDtEWxSjQZsRLcPO 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multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002eca8805923faa7a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBHb2luZyBiYWNrIHRvIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5h?= =?utf-8?q?l_question_for_the_Spring_WG_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Beyond_SRv6=2E=29?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 04:43:43 -0000 --0000000000002eca8805923faa7a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 14:21 Satoru Matsushima, wrote: > > On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 13:46 Satoru Matsushima, > wrote: > >> Hi Aijun, >> >> >> >> But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service >> instruction separation; >> >> >> The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC8402: >> >> =E2=80=9CAbstract >> >> >> Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm. A node >> steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called >> "segments". A segment can represent any instruction, topological or = service based.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> =E2=80=9C3.1.3 . SRv= 6 >> >> >> When SR is used over the IPv6 data plane: >> >> >> o A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address. >> >> o An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID. IPv6 node >> addresses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D >> >> >> >> different instruction carried in different IPv6 EH). It conforms to >> RFC8200 as well, seems will be less resisted within 6man WG. >> >> >> SRH conforms RFC8200. >> > > > This SPRING WG draft does not. > > > My point was on SRH. Good to see you have no comment on that. > Packet structures aren't protocol definitions. > > > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 > > > > > > It is referring to the ID which has not been adopted by 6man, has been ig= noring many of the points brought up about it by 6man, and has proposed Inf= ormation status. > > > > draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-05 > > > > I would think that a Standards Track ID/RFC cannot depend on an > Informational ID/RFC for any formal functionality. > > > Fine. > =E2=80=94satoru > > > >> >> Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related >> technologies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J. >> >> >> SRH has already accelerated SRv6 deployments. >> >> Best regards, >> =E2=80=94satoru >> >> We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR >> technologies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of >> SR/SRv6/SRv6+ technologies. >> >> >> >> Best Regards. >> >> >> >> Aijun Wang >> >> China Telecom >> >> >> >> *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* spring-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:spring-bo= unces@ietf.org >> ] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Robert Raszuk >> *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97= =A5 1:34 >> *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* Sander Steffann >> *=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81:* Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James G= uichard; >> Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel >> *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* Re: [spring] Going back to the original question f= or the Spring WG >> (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) >> >> >> >> Hi Sander, >> >> >> >> You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are >> going to make it or as you will need it to be. >> >> >> >> No one is mandating you to do any network programming or to use multiple >> TLVs. If you just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs >> and you are done. If you want to also enable L3VPN you configure it in >> pretty much identical way regardless if this is SRv6 or SRv6+. >> >> >> >> I know I am not going to convince you, but just for the record it is wor= h >> to note that what get's send on the wire is only the information what yo= u >> as the vendor need. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be >> useful for not only you but other operators does not make the solution >> "complex". Otherwise we will end up with protocol per customer which wo= uld >> be pretty bad I am afraid. >> >> >> >> See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is the same here - BGP is >> as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines = of >> config. But if you need other address families if you need fancy policy = you >> have all required tools for that on your keyboard. >> >> >> >> - - - >> >> >> >> Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further even >> writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two an= d >> you submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been working in op= en >> IETF process on any new service for over 5 years now would have to put a >> lot of development resources on the table to develop data plane and cont= rol >> plane enhancements for essentially subset of functionality at best ? >> >> >> >> It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limite= d >> resources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor based on = the >> RFC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So >> without huge market demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any >> vendor who committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support for >> SRv6+. >> >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> R. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann > > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting >> trapped in the SRv6 walled garden. >> > >> > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you d= o >> not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing fro= m >> any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it o= r >> to make sure the WG product is the best possible. >> > >> > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with >> SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. >> > >> > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already >> shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is a= t >> best counterproductive. >> >> No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with >> lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IP= v6 >> instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport >> technologies. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many >> knobs and "special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it w= ill >> be much harder to work with. >> >> > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts >> which woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for servi= ces >> you are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ a= nd >> mVPN+ without any new functionality. >> >> That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6 >> >> > Would it make sense ? >> >> If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do >> those things? Most definitely yes. >> >> It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are >> added that is a problem here. Progress also include making technology >> easier to manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible= to >> average network engineers. >> >> Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved= , not when >> there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take awa= y.=E2=80=9D >> >> Cheers, >> Sander >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > --0000000000002eca8805923faa7a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 14:21 Satoru Matsushima, <satoru.matsushima@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019,= 13:46 Satoru Matsushima, <satoru.matsushima@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Aijun,

= =C2=A0

But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topolo= gy/service instruction separation;

=
The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC8402:<= /div>

=E2=80=9CAbstract


   Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  A node
   steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called
   "segments".  A segment can represent any instruction, topologi=
cal or=C2=A0service based.=E2=80=9D

=E2=80=9C=
3.1.3.  SRv6
=C2=A0

=C2=A0When SR is used over=
 the IPv6 data plane:=C2=A0

<=
/span>
=C2=A0o  A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 =
address.=C2=A0
=C2=A0o  An operat=
or MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID.  IPv6 node
      addresses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D
<= /div>


different ins= truction carried in different IPv6 EH).=C2=A0 It conforms to RFC8200 as wel= l, seems will be less resisted within 6man WG.


SRH conforms RFC8200.


This SPRING WG draft does not.

My point was on SRH. Good to see you have no comment o= n that.

Packet structures aren't protocol definitions.


= 


draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01
=

= 



It is referring to the ID which has not been adopted by 6man, has been ign=
oring many of the points brought up about it by 6man, and has proposed Info=
rmation status.

=

draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-05
=


I would think that a Standards Track ID/RFC cannot depend on an Inform= ational ID/RFC for any formal functionality.
=

Fine.
=E2=80=94satoru


=


Will such enhancements accelerate the deplo= yment of SR related technologies in service provider network? Anyway it is = called SRv6+ J.


SRH has alread= y accelerated SRv6 deployments.=C2=A0

Best regards= ,
=E2=80=94satoru

<= u>

We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that th= e SR technologies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of S= R/SRv6/SRv6+ technologies.

<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Calibri&quo= t;,"sans-serif";color:#1f497d">=C2=A0

Best Regards.

=C2=A0

Aijun Wang

China T= elecom

=C2=A0

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spri= ng-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Robert Raszuk
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 1:34
= =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander Steffann
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81= : Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston= ; James Guichard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Dani= el
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spri= ng WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

=C2=A0

Hi Sander,

=C2=A0

You keep sayin= g SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are going to make it or= as you will need it to be.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=

No one is mandating you to= do any network programming or to use multiple TLVs. If you just need to us= e SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs and you are done. If you want = to also enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty much identical way regardle= ss if this is SRv6 or SRv6+.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I know I am not going to = convince you, but just for the record it is worh to note that what get'= s send on the wire is only the information what you as the vendor need. The= fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be useful for not only you bu= t other operators does not make the solution "complex".=C2=A0 Oth= erwise we will end up with protocol per customer which would be pretty bad = I am afraid.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

See many people say BGP is complex ....= and it is the same here - BGP is as complex as you require it to be. You c= an enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of config. But if you need other address fam= ilies if you need fancy policy you have all required tools for that on your= keyboard.=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

<= div>

=C2=A0=

Now point about = SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further even writing interop dr= aft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two and you submit. But ple= ase tell me why any vendor who has been working in open IETF process on any= new service for over 5 years now would have to put a lot of development re= sources on the table to develop data plane and control plane enhancements f= or essentially subset of functionality at best ?=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

It is= nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limited re= sources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor based on the R= FC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So witho= ut huge market demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any vendor w= ho committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support for SRv6+.

= =C2=A0

Thank you,

R.

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0=

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<= div>

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

On Tu= e, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:=

Hi,

> No. And that is why I want SRv= 6+ to move forward, to avoid getting trapped in the SRv6 walled garden.
= >
> The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that= if you do not like a specific element of a solution or if something is mis= sing from any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either f= ix it or to make sure the WG product is the best possible.
>
>= So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6= process to take an active part in its standardization.
>
> As= king for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already shipping = solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best count= erproductive.

No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS bu= t over IPv6, with lots of space for future expansion, is something I like t= o see. Using IPv6 instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying tra= nsport technologies. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with = so many knobs and "special" (read: header insertion, bit shifting= etc) that it will be much harder to work with.

> It is like now = you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts which woke up and defin= ed new data plane and new control plane for services you are running in you= r network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new = functionality.

That "without any new functionality" isn= 9;t exactly true either=E2=80=A6

> Would it make sense ?

I= f those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to do tho= se things? Most definitely yes.

It's the measuring progress by h= ow many features and "cool" things are added that is a problem he= re. Progress also include making technology easier to manage, easier to und= erstand, easier to debug, more accessible to average network engineers.
=
Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieve= d, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to= take away.=E2=80=9D

Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/spring
________= _______________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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See RFC8402: >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=9CAbstract >>>>=20 >>>> Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm. A node stee= rs a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called "segments". A se= gment can represent any instruction, topological or service based.=E2=80=9D >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=9C3.1.3. SRv6=20 >>>>=20 >>>> When SR is used over the IPv6 data plane:=20 >>>>=20 >>>> o A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address.=20 >>>> o An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID. IPv6 node addre= sses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> different instruction carried in different IPv6 EH). It conforms to R= FC8200 as well, seems will be less resisted within 6man WG. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> SRH conforms RFC8200. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> This SPRING WG draft does not. >>=20 >> My point was on SRH. Good to see you have no comment on that. >=20 >=20 > Packet structures aren't protocol definitions. Huh? Interesting. I never thought like that thorough witness on lots of design wo= rk and discussion in IETF to define bits-n-bytes over the wire.=20 =E2=80=94satoru >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> It is referring to the ID which has not been adopted by 6man, has been i= gnoring many of the points brought up about it by 6man, and has proposed Inf= ormation status. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-05 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I would think that a Standards Track ID/RFC cannot depend on an Informat= ional ID/RFC for any formal functionality. >>=20 >> Fine. >> =E2=80=94satoru >>=20 >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related technol= ogies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> SRH has already accelerated SRv6 deployments.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Best regards, >>>> =E2=80=94satoru >>>>=20 >>>>> We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR techno= logies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of SR/SRv6/SRv6+= technologies. >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best Regards. >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Aijun Wang >>>>>=20 >>>>> China Telecom >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:spring-bo= unces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Robert Raszuk >>>>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5= 1:34 >>>>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander Steffann >>>>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James G= uichard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel >>>>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question f= or the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi Sander, >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are g= oing to make it or as you will need it to be.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> No one is mandating you to do any network programming or to use multip= le TLVs. If you just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs a= nd you are done. If you want to also enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty= much identical way regardless if this is SRv6 or SRv6+.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I know I am not going to convince you, but just for the record it is w= orh to note that what get's send on the wire is only the information what yo= u as the vendor need. The fact that spec has prepared encoding to also be us= eful for not only you but other operators does not make the solution "comple= x". Otherwise we will end up with protocol per customer which would be pret= ty bad I am afraid.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is the same here - BGP i= s as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of= config. But if you need other address families if you need fancy policy you= have all required tools for that on your keyboard.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> - - -=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further ev= en writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or two and= you submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been working in open I= ETF process on any new service for over 5 years now would have to put a lot o= f development resources on the table to develop data plane and control plane= enhancements for essentially subset of functionality at best ?=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about limi= ted resources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor based on t= he RFC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful process. So wi= thout huge market demand behind it I would be highly surprised if any vendor= who committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support for SRv6+. >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thank you, >>>>>=20 >>>>> R. >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann w= rote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Hi, >>>>>=20 >>>>> > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting t= rapped in the SRv6 walled garden. >>>>> >=20 >>>>> > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you= do not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing fro= m any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or t= o make sure the WG product is the best possible. >>>>> >=20 >>>>> > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing wit= h SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. >>>>> >=20 >>>>> > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already s= hipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at bes= t counterproductive. >>>>>=20 >>>>> No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, wit= h lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IPv6= instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport technologie= s. I'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many knobs and "spec= ial" (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be much harder t= o work with. >>>>>=20 >>>>> > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts w= hich woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services y= ou are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mV= PN+ without any new functionality. >>>>>=20 >>>>> That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6= >>>>>=20 >>>>> > Would it make sense ? >>>>>=20 >>>>> If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way to d= o those things? Most definitely yes. >>>>>=20 >>>>> It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things are= added that is a problem here. Progress also include making technology easie= r to manage, easier to understand, easier to debug, more accessible to avera= ge network engineers. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achiev= ed, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to= take away.=E2=80=9D >>>>>=20 >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Sander >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> spring mailing list >>>>> spring@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> spring mailing list >>>> spring@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-A277762E-0F86-4361-9851-C0E229DFE0CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 14:21 Satoru Matsushima, <satoru.matsushima@gmail.com> wro= te:

On Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 13:46 Sator= u Matsushima, <satoru= .matsushima@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Hi Ai= jun,

 

=

But the conc= ept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service instruction separa= tion;


The SR architec= ture never require such things. See RFC8402:

=E2=80= =9CAbstract

= 

   Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm.  A node
   steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called
   "segments".  A segment can represent any instruction, topological or =
;service b=
ased.=E2=80=9D

=E2=80=9C3.1.3.  SRv6
&n=
bsp;

 When SR is used over the IPv6 data plane: 

 o  A=
 Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address. 
=
 o  An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID.  IPv6 node
      addresses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.=E2=80=9D


different instructi= on carried in different IPv6 EH).  It conforms to RFC8200 as well, seem= s will be less resisted within 6man WG.

<= div>
SRH conforms RFC8200.


This SPRING WG draft does not.

<= /div>
My point was on SRH. Good to see you have no comment on that.

Packet structures aren't protocol definitions.

Huh?
Interesting. I never thought like that= thorough witness on lots of design work and discussion in IETF to define bi= ts-n-bytes over the wire. 
=E2=80=94satoru






dra=
ft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01



<=
/span>

It is referring to the ID which has not been= adopted by 6man, has been ignoring many of the points brought up about it b= y 6man, and has proposed Information status.



draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-05


I would think that a Standards Track ID/RFC cannot depen= d on an Informational ID/RFC for any formal functionality.
=

Fine.
=E2=80=94satoru




Will such enhancements accelerate the deploy= ment of SR related technologies in service provider network? Anyway it is ca= lled SRv6+ J.=


SRH has already acce= lerated SRv6 deployments. 

Best regards,
=
=E2=80=94satoru

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">

= We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR technologies= aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of SR/SRv6/SRv6+ techn= ologies.

 

Best Regards.

 

Aijun Wang

China Telecom

 <= /u>

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] <= /span>=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Robert Raszuk
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2= 019=E5=B9=B49=E6=9C=8811=E6=97=A5 1= :34
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Sander Steffann
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; A= ndrew Alston; James Guichard; Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); V= oyer, Daniel
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for t= he Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

Hi Sander,

 

You keep say= ing SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are going to make it o= r as you will need it to be. 

 

<= div>

No one is mandating you to d= o any network programming or to use multiple TLVs. If you just need to use S= R for basic TE you insert one or two SIDs and you are done. If you want to a= lso enable L3VPN you configure it in pretty much identical way regardless if= this is SRv6 or SRv6+. 

 

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal">I know I am not going to convince= you, but just for the record it is worh to note that what get's send on the= wire is only the information what you as the vendor need. The fact that spe= c has prepared encoding to also be useful for not only you but other operato= rs does not make the solution "complex".  Otherwise we will end up with= protocol per customer which would be pretty bad I am afraid. 

 

See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is the same here - BGP i= s as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 lines of= config. But if you need other address families if you need fancy policy you= have all required tools for that on your keyboard. 

 

- - -=  

 

Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy= , Further even writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - da= y or two and you submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been work= ing in open IETF process on any new service for over 5 years now would have t= o put a lot of development resources on the table to develop data plane and c= ontrol plane enhancements for essentially subset of functionality at best ?&= nbsp;

 

It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is al= l about limited resources. Features and extensions are not added to any vend= or based on the RFC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and painful p= rocess. So without huge market demand behind it I would be highly surprised i= f any vendor who committed to SRv6 already would now take real on support fo= r SRv6+.

 

Thank you,

R.

 

 

 <= u>

<= /u> 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, Se= p 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:<= /p>

<= span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,

> No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move= forward, to avoid getting trapped in the SRv6 walled garden.
>
&g= t; The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do n= ot like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from any= solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to ma= ke sure the WG product is the best possible.
>
> So nothing pre= vented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6 process to take= an active part in its standardization.
>
> Asking for adoption= of solution which brings nothing new to already shipping solution of SR-MPL= S when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best counterproductive.
No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, with lo= ts of space for future expansion, is something I like to see. Using IPv6 ins= tead of MPLS already gives the benefit of unifying transport technologies. I= 'm not waiting for something feature packed with so many knobs and "special"= (read: header insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be much harder to w= ork with.

> It is like now you would be asking to adopt some indiv= idual drafts which woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane f= or services you are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L= 3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality.

That "without any new f= unctionality" isn't exactly true either=E2=80=A6

> Would it make s= ense ?

If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier= way to do those things? Most definitely yes.

It's the measuring prog= ress by how many features and "cool" things are added that is a problem here= . Progress also include making technology easier to manage, easier to unders= tand, easier to debug, more accessible to average network engineers.

= Antoine de Saint Exup=C3=A9ry was right: =E2=80=9CPerfection is achieved, no= t when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take a= way.=E2=80=9D

Cheers,
Sander

=
_______________________________________________
spring m= ailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sp= ring
__________________________= _____________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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11 Sep 2019 06:31:28 +0000 From: "Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , "mpls@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-mpls-spring-lsp-ping@ietf.org" CC: "spring@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LSP-Trace Thread-Index: AdVIuAQ8AdZ/IKoeQP2RJFvbMTxY5QeVSCgAAFKFpgAABLXgUA== Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 06:31:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <27031_1568033596_5D764B3C_27031_258_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C03799@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mustapha.aissaoui@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [69.75.68.193] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 36f3338f-6ed8-44c0-2bbc-08d73681ad3a x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; 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36f3338f-6ed8-44c0-2bbc-08d73681ad3a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Sep 2019 06:31:27.8745 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ojsrRMPc0mp26FjYV3r9pZpywXIj/fnFaCYnDLZrUrUHsza4WwbPPtfYLkE5gkuYd4GQ0jR0i5AoaZahye+/wCbshlGzaXlKo1mBThi6+RE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR07MB3207 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LSP-Trace X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 06:31:35 -0000 --_000_DB6PR07MB4261686DAA2FA41EF76103C6E4B10DB6PR07MB4261eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Ketan. I believe it would be appropriate to have a separate codepoint for each OSP= Fv2 and OSPFv3 protocols. Within OSPFv3 we can distinguish the family IPv4 = and IPv6 based on the prefix of the SID. Mustapha. From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 12:21 AM To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) ; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-spring-lsp-ping@ie= tf.org Cc: spring@ietf.org Subject: RE: Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LSP-Trace Hi Mustapha, The RFC8287 refers to OSPF and not OSPFv2. Conventionally, we use the term = OSPF when we are referring to both OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. I am not sure if this= was the authors' objective. One might assume that OSPFv2 is purely for IPv4 and OSPFv3 for IPv6, but th= is is not true (see RFC5838). I would it is better to have two separate code-points for OSPFv2 and OSPFv3= in this case. Thanks, Ketan From: mpls > On Behalf = Of bruno.decraene@orange.com Sent: 09 September 2019 18:23 To: Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) >; mpls@ietf.org; dra= ft-ietf-mpls-spring-lsp-ping@ietf.org Cc: spring@ietf.org Subject: Re: [mpls] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LS= P-Trace RFC 8287 is a product of the MPLS WG so in the absence of answer on the SPR= ING mailing list, I'm redirecting the question to the MPLS WG. --Bruno From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Aissaoui, Mustap= ha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 12:29 AM To: spring@ietf.org Subject: [spring] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LSP-= Trace Dear all, I am not sure if this was discussed during the development of RFC 8287 - "L= abel Switched Path (LSP) Ping/Traceroute for Segment Routing (SR) IGP-Prefi= x and IGP-Adjacency Segment Identifiers (SIDs) with= MPLS Data Planes", but I could not find anything in the SPRING mail archiv= e. Prefix SID and adjacency SID which are originated in an OSPFv3 instance (IP= v4 or IPv6 instance) do not have a protocol ID assigned to them in the Segm= ent ID Sub-TLV, as well as in the Label Stack Sub-TLV of the Downstream Det= ailed Mapping TLV. Should we assign the next available IANA codepoint values or was there a ra= tionale for omitting them? Regards, Mustapha. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_DB6PR07MB4261686DAA2FA41EF76103C6E4B10DB6PR07MB4261eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you Ketan.

 

I believe it would be appropriate to have a separate = codepoint for each OSPFv2 and OSPFv3 protocols. Within OSPFv3 we can distin= guish the family IPv4 and IPv6 based on the prefix of the SID.

 

Mustapha.

 

From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) <ketant@cisco.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 12:21 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa= ) <mustapha.aissaoui@nokia.com>; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-sprin= g-lsp-ping@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: RE: Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping and LS= P-Trace

 

Hi Mustapha,<= /p>

 

The RFC8287 refers to OSPF and = not OSPFv2. Conventionally, we use the term OSPF when we are referring to b= oth OSPFv2 and OSPFv3. I am not sure if this was the authors’ objecti= ve.

 

One might assume that OSPFv2 is= purely for IPv4 and OSPFv3 for IPv6, but this is not true (see RFC5838).

 

I would it is better to have tw= o separate code-points for OSPFv2 and OSPFv3 in this case.

 

Thanks,

Ketan

 

From: mpls <mpls-bounces@iet= f.org> On Behalf Of bruno.decr= aene@orange.com
Sent: 09 September 2019 18:23
To: Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <mustapha.aissaoui@nokia.com>; mpls@ietf.org; draft-ietf-mpls-spring-lsp-ping@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [mpls] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping= and LSP-Trace

 

RFC 828= 7 is a product of the MPLS WG so in the absence of answer on the SPRING mai= ling list, I’m redirecting the question to the MPLS WG.

&n= bsp;

--Bruno=

&n= bsp;

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@i= etf.org] On Behalf Of Aissaoui, Mustapha (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 12:29 AM
To: spring@ietf.org
Subject: [spring] Codepoint for OSPFv3 protocol in SPRING LSP-Ping a= nd LSP-Trace

=  

Dear all,=

I am not = sure if this was discussed during the development of RFC 8287 – ̶= 0;Label Switched Path (LSP) Ping/Traceroute for Segment Routing (SR) IGP-Prefix and IGP-Adjacency Segment Identifiers (SIDs)   &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;         with MPLS Data Plan= es”, but I could not find anything in the SPRING mail archive.

&nbs= p;

Prefix SI= D and adjacency SID which are originated in an OSPFv3 instance (IPv4 or IPv= 6 instance) do not have a protocol ID assigned to them in the Segment ID Sub-TLV, as well as in the Label Stack Sub-TLV of t= he Downstream Detailed Mapping TLV.

&nbs= p;

Should we= assign the next available IANA codepoint values or was there a rationale f= or omitting them?

&nbs= p;

Regards,<= o:p>

Mustapha.= 

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>
 
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--_000_DB6PR07MB4261686DAA2FA41EF76103C6E4B10DB6PR07MB4261eurp_-- From nobody Wed Sep 11 01:10:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432E512081E for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 01:10:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oP4tR8Mg7QqA for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 01:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x842.google.com (mail-qt1-x842.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::842]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7CF38120817 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 01:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x842.google.com with SMTP id v11so24124730qto.13 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 01:10:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=suXmLQOq3EcifgqSgO1fGmA0gE9DbwqSHiM7So7oPS4=; b=e6zNpsVGwt10el5QLx6OU4OunGKMj9xV9ZENub6kNkleUnzSc2bUeXcwH3IHnVykR2 8nL3xW8kfp643cKOkF022KLJQz3Ze98lh4cNcFkCWqEyow7x+2EoDSZyMNvQdfLM7Wu5 pDOTolTd9DaUYd1lLg1YwoDtPaZZeHuq7ADiAhjKlcTtQKDjaHgvX4SuG5nsu0yMc3hf 61wo3B2MwMQNEVTjaKgvC+bUpI4cZbIQr366WgLZjm3+s66SkdxpOyX8HTrzI8tNFrc+ 6WMqGTOEHgHHnsuahQfomjXrIrIgjae6hbB8sJdknrD6UWk+xc0iinhY662KuOhyiqnq IKrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=suXmLQOq3EcifgqSgO1fGmA0gE9DbwqSHiM7So7oPS4=; b=WpmHqlPjQb5EssHBezzOF+NOr1B5ahqV/fw2p1TzqayuZeORaZewXL6eX4RxAJuy+M xCKGVnM7ROjzah4CHi0PrS1p/JR4zbMr2YkjFsz00PgoWTxwuQGC558Zt1TkW2qubZO/ Nt0Wct+d/9WTn4xCGxFNF81d2l51oGBCyfRGOjFSh3yZ6u9lzRsLaEG5KnUpQwIEORLx dQuQhOn7Y3rGTN8uYgvjLSrKLPoNnsmsZ0UHFgVXWhpbkBf7spmjnHdeVV/+/z+SPEDT IA4t/+YAqznyz95wwXlemBoE9VvmdsK1vS91tNoGNpuTEBb1zlh8qMubuUF0DGfnhjX5 jF5A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXqZTp8B73G4zmEdPOZWuzI5eoOyyy8MFkWvmS7gP2yG7yzEdk6 DiknJcR9D5Bj6J38T0q88c2lxlaAqfIQ0Wvf25Tlcg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy33MkrekyN7gFvIFlW5+glz3RjyBLKH73dUOcXS/0atAlPy/DtLk4vwkOrJIDSZtA0DGonD3PL2v7RHZI1V50= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2ae9:: with SMTP id c38mr33646095qta.311.1568189409373; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 01:10:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52203070-2F7B-412E-B5C2-15EC6B7AC36F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 10:10:00 +0200 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Aijun Wang , Sander Steffann , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Voyer, Daniel" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000afcf0c0592428c44" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgR29pbmcgYmFjayB0byB0aGUgb3JpZ2lu?= =?utf-8?q?al_question_for_the_Spring_WG_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Beyond_SRv6=2E=29?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 08:10:13 -0000 --000000000000afcf0c0592428c44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andrew, > And yes, as was alluded to, I did raise the possibility of an inter-op draft to facilitate > forward movement here, and I had only one vendor out of all the vendors I approached > actually indicate opposition to this, so I would ask now directly on list, can we work > towards a situation where instead of all blocking each other =E2=80=93 wo= rk continues and we > find a way to play nice, and indeed, inter-operate? If so many vendors you approached indicated no opposition to work on interop draft and solution where is it ? Note that each piece wire or fiber has (at least) two ends. So if the SRv6+ side takes the burden of translation to and from new control plane extensions of SRv6+ and new data plane encoding SRv6+ and if this is clearly spelled out in the draft then perhaps you would see much easier or say different acceptance or resistance level in IETF for SRv6+ ? If I were to suggest strategy to introduce such proposal like SRv6+ I would start with that then later focus on number of protocol extensions drafts. Bottom line is that I seriously doubt that any vendor would support all three: SR-MPLS, SRv6 & SRv6+ just to make few customers happy. And that is regardless on the business case. It is just realistically too expensive to develop and too support. - - - And as proposed before not only by myself but others what is functionally missing if you were to use SR-MPLS with IP encap between segment nodes as compared to SRv6+ ? If SRv6+ would find a cool and smart way to propose stateless compression of IPv6 address into SID it would perhaps had some value, but it does not. It takes flat 16 or 32 bits and maps it to IPv6 .. in exactly same way as you map MPLS label based SID to an IP address. And for those who do not like to see MPLS even at service level they should stop running L3VPNs over MPLS or over IP too. Note that SRv6+ still proposes to use MPLS label in PPSI for VPN demux encoding see section 7 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ssangli-idr-bgp-vpn-srv6-plus-02#section-= 7 Thx, R. > --000000000000afcf0c0592428c44 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andrew,

> And yes, as was allu= ded to, I did raise the possibility of an inter-op draft to facilitate=C2= =A0
> forward movement here, and I had only one vendor out of a= ll the vendors I approached=C2=A0
> actually indicate oppositio= n to this, so I would ask now directly on list, can we work=C2=A0
= > towards a situation where instead of all blocking each other =E2=80=93= work continues and we=C2=A0
> find a way to play nice, and ind= eed, inter-operate?=C2=A0=C2=A0

If so m= any vendors you approached indicated no opposition to work on interop draft= and solution where is it ?=C2=A0

Note that each p= iece wire or fiber has (at least) two ends. So if the SRv6+ side takes the = burden of translation to and from new control plane extensions of SRv6+ and= new data plane encoding SRv6+ and if this is clearly spelled out in the dr= aft then perhaps you would see much easier or say different acceptance or r= esistance level in IETF for SRv6+ ?=C2=A0

If I wer= e to suggest strategy to introduce such proposal like SRv6+ I would start w= ith that then later focus on number of protocol extensions drafts.

Bottom line is that I seriously doubt that any vendor woul= d support all three: SR-MPLS, SRv6 & SRv6+ just to make few customers h= appy. And that is regardless on the business case. It is just realistically= too expensive to develop and too support.=C2=A0

-= - -=C2=A0

And as proposed before not only by myse= lf but others what is functionally missing if you were to use SR-MPLS with = IP encap between segment nodes as compared to SRv6+ ? If SRv6+ would find a= cool and smart way to propose stateless compression of=C2=A0 IPv6 address = into SID it would perhaps had some value, but it does not. It takes flat 16= or 32 bits and maps it to IPv6 .. in exactly same way as you map MPLS labe= l based SID to an IP address.=C2=A0

And for those = who do not like to see MPLS even at service level they should stop running = L3VPNs over MPLS or over IP too. Note that SRv6+ still proposes to use MPLS= label in PPSI for VPN demux encoding see section 7 of=C2=A0h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ssangli-idr-bgp-vpn-srv6-plus-02#section-7= =C2=A0

Thx,
R.
<= div class=3D"gmail-m_658037358508972402WordSection1">
--000000000000afcf0c0592428c44-- From nobody Wed Sep 11 03:17:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280CC12085D for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:17:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tm1eAGhkkVkN for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42f.google.com (mail-pf1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1ED8120867 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id y5so10628135pfo.4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:17:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=NSYbbuyY3e2ONPqZOshq641HoMstNJJ8exR4BzOSO+E=; b=NxRwvrFCM9AvaAlSLz3YfRGO9IElQs5/+NiA2dyNpvYvFVELy8P/DTmZULMRhYIxhg w7OcvGpyQJezcMGUu8UGO54cxx4le3FkClIp6JtyDT5/43mfKYxtnVCBABJzrxsjN7kn 7d4IVaPbWwigboMVSoPLMLnY8eDPXg7oxT1je5k176v8nhtuOFv+Gq+4AKWg6KnuWada h3orfOiXPzc/uU66y/eUvRx/AQ6qx3eY6GGO7Jg5Q28khHV5wNto3LYFqm4auTwAJrgw 53L5CRtN4Bm13zGWrQbT+MIqGMPDSf1XwaMtYkLU6R/gKIpvd7YeakPeG/WXk3iBEfBN 4HCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=NSYbbuyY3e2ONPqZOshq641HoMstNJJ8exR4BzOSO+E=; b=hAzMJcbC1gErGOXXJ8MJZu+yxlIA0CT0iOrPrIWMkVtsgUN9pPWBUYQ+EBHed4Dj4L qPApKZfLInBLpfftf536vPRpNiIzFrfJZrsKf3HeqApyAsxqn+AOtBykN+VsyaYCs2r1 eIIYGqxSK0gKE6rXMoINfIoqAXYt9F1FnKRbWwfFb2l/N9Em/JGvBtUvPqQSvTPuSRJi K6uFU2K8zNJNI8xTXCOjGbGXvJAxPpVI78omsfvdBt7sPfSi3gtygfLcS7pSjYTc+TYU iD0bFaR7YzpFabP9VMQWDMZkewqeMlLZZbs/6BtNJhzLyd7cS9/wyG0guuPOtjvaVWPS vj1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXDune1b9yioK+NIeBbfv+kFkIOWDz2flT4AMqfeU8TqVUsjKpU n56cS1Y/xjGtpcSDj46Db9M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwWnNiJHoTjD7if4QiwScOmEGOmES4RMWlMhQY9c+WIEpUxykLVisiDBgMRRw++zNOWm5FFeg== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8b01:: with SMTP id f1mr42735296pfd.173.1568197023807; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [100.83.63.72] (13.214.49.163.rev.vmobile.jp. [163.49.214.13]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c127sm32807359pfb.5.2019.09.11.03.17.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Satoru Matsushima X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <882D4DC5-B2B8-4211-8D16-63427FF9A667@steffann.nl> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:16:58 +0900 Cc: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <69C22141-954B-421D-8F96-429FA8DDACB1@gmail.com> References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> <882D4DC5-B2B8-4211-8D16-63427FF9A667@steffann.nl> To: Sander Steffann Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 10:17:07 -0000 2019/09/11 0:35=E3=80=81Sander Steffann =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1= =E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: > Hi, >=20 >> If you say you are an operator, and ask us to disclose on where, for what= , scale and use case, please describe yours at first in very detail. >=20 > ISP in The Netherlands, between 50k and 100k customers three datacenters, m= ultiple interconnect locations, currently using MPLS for L2VPN (as little as= possible), L3VPN, mVPN (mostly for streaming media distribution). Nothing f= ancy. I'd love to use SR with plain IPv6 as one step towards the ultimate go= al of running the network as simply as possible (i.e. just IPv6) while still= having the possibility to steer traffic with as little complications as pos= sible, keeping it easy to learn, easy to understand by NOC engineers, easy t= o debug and easy to adjust. KISS. >=20 > Cheers, > Sander Thanks.=20 We run networks in Japan nation wide for our customers, 5M+ on fixed broadba= nd, 30M+ on 3G/4G cellular, and enterprise business. Bunch of MPLS boxes are= deployed in both access aggregation in all 47 prefectural regions (varied s= ize from dense/sub-urban to rural) and backbone networks.(NOTE: not big comp= are to US/China). Currently L3VPNs run on top of L2VPNs over MPLS(-TP). Afte= r long time investigation and discussions internally/externally, we decided t= o adopt SRv6 more than two years ago. Now SRv6 networks are being deployed, u= p and running, as part of 5G roll out in addition to those networks, and pla= n to migrate existing customers to it. Cheers, =E2=80=94satoru= From nobody Wed Sep 11 03:25:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988E61200C5 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xy1KEQRrnBAa for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30AE112086D for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 03:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22AB53C; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 12:25:45 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:in-reply-to:references:message-id:date:date:subject :subject:mime-version:from:from:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1568197532; bh=416OwZy/X5bBCRWmd6xUzQcO3t7ewCAFZxrF24/4LLg=; b=d sdw+Eh4ZrW+zvNz9XkrpyNReVQHsL4p4VoqjiMzYiv8JPzdXuBcIHDGqoy+ctILh aQehmjQnU6wHmJBld9x008XDMCJ6bQJ9A21AuDlFhU6Obnf3z2z3CZ82u4+ESVJA qyXmASH0KSEUzKN6EhJBmJWZEFHfbYgtE0SjvbwyaQ= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id vvUnQAZw7NMg; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 12:25:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:397b:240f:2dd2:c39c] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:397b:240f:2dd2:c39c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8E344B; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 12:25:26 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C500D23C-E1B0-4362-9692-568E18270146 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 12:19:00 +0200 Message-Id: References: <52203070-2F7B-412E-B5C2-15EC6B7AC36F@cisco.com> Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Aijun Wang , Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Voyer, Daniel" In-Reply-To: To: Andrew Alston X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgR29pbmcgYmFjayB0byB0aGUgb3JpZ2lu?= =?utf-8?q?al_question_for_the_Spring_WG_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Beyond_SRv6=2E=29?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 10:25:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail-C500D23C-E1B0-4362-9692-568E18270146 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andrew, > There is a phrase that I have heard =E2=80=93 and perhaps it applies here =E2= =80=93 perhaps we need to put our guns down =E2=80=93 and find a way to in w= hich we can move forward that while it probably will not satisfy everyone, w= ill be in the interests of the market in general by avoiding a total standof= f. Thank you for your wise words. I have also gotten carried away in this discu= ssion. I'll take a step back and think more carefully before I post. I just s= aw Robert's reply and I hope that in time he'll do the same. Guns down... Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail-C500D23C-E1B0-4362-9692-568E18270146 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi A= ndrew,

There is a p= hrase that I have heard =E2=80=93 and perhaps it applies here =E2=80=93 perh= aps we need to put our guns down =E2=80=93 and find a way to in which we can move forward that while it probably will not satisfy everyone, will b= e in the interests of the market in general by avoiding a total standoff.


Thank you for your wise words. I have also gotten carried aw= ay in this discussion. I'll take a step back and think more carefully before= I post. I just saw Robert's reply and I hope that in time he'll do the same= . Guns down...

Cheers,
Sander
<= br>
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Finally, something we can agree on !!

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisc= o.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 9:03 AM
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>; Andrew Alston <An= drew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>; Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; SPRING WG Li= st <spring@ietf.org>; James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.c= om>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@g= oogle.com>; Voyer, Daniel <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisc= o.com>
Subject: Re: =B5=AA=CE`: [spring] Going back t= o the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

+1,

 

Thanks

 

Regards =A1K Zafar

 

From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Date: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 at 6:26 AM
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, Aijun Wang <wangaijun@tsinghua.org.cn>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net= @dmarc.ietf.org>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org&= gt;, James Guichard <j= ames.n.guichard@futurewei.com>, Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>, Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>, &= quot;Voyer, Daniel" <daniel= .voyer@bell.ca>
Subject: Re: =B5=AA=CE`: [spring] Going = back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

Hi Andrew,

 

There is a phrase that I have heard =A1V and perhaps it applies here =A1V perhaps we need to put our guns down =A1V and find a way to in which we can move for= ward that while it probably will not satisfy everyone, will be in the inter= ests of the market in general by avoiding a total standoff.

 

Thank you for your wise words. I have also gotten c= arried away in this discussion. I'll take a step back and think more carefu= lly before I post. I just saw Robert's reply and I hope that in time he'll do the same. Guns down...

 

Cheers,

Sander

 

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by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46T3gB1C4kztRpX; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 07:09:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Satoru Matsushima Cc: SPRING WG List References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> <013001d56851$33f0b3b0$9bd21b10$@org.cn> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <4dd4a49b-6380-7ee9-95ba-c9937eae6d02@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 10:09:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBHb2luZyBiYWNrIHRvIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5h?= =?utf-8?q?l_question_for_the_Spring_WG_=28was=3A_Re=3A_Beyond_SRv6=2E=29?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:09:29 -0000 You are technically correct that the SR Architecture document does not require the separation of topological behavior from service behavior. On the other hand, MANY of us have notied, and tried to find solutions for, the fact that the overloading of IP addresses for both identity and location causes significant problems. Further overloading the same thing with service semantics as well makes this problem worse. So yes, there are plenty of good reasons to be concerned about this overloading. Yours, Joel On 9/10/2019 11:45 PM, Satoru Matsushima wrote: > Hi Aijun, > >> But the concept of SRv6+ is more clear than the SRv6(topology/service >> instruction separation; >> > > The SR architecture never require such things. See RFC8402: > > “Abstract > > Segment Routing (SR) leverages the source routing paradigm. A node > steers a packet through an ordered list of instructions, called > "segments". A segment can represent any instruction, topological or > service based.†> > > “3.1.3 . SRv6 > > >  When SR is used over the IPv6 data plane: > > >  o A Prefix-SID is an IPv6 address. > >  o An operator MUST explicitly instantiate an SRv6 SID. IPv6 node > addresses are not SRv6 SIDs by default.†> > > >> different instruction carried in different IPv6 EH).  It conforms to >> RFC8200 as well, seems will be less resisted within 6man WG. >> > > SRH conforms RFC8200. > > >> Will such enhancements accelerate the deployment of SR related >> technologies in service provider network? Anyway it is called SRv6+ J. >> > > SRH has already accelerated SRv6 deployments. > > Best regards, > —satoru > >> We have our own solutions for the similar scenarios that the SR >> technologies aims to solve, but will also keep eye on the advance of >> SR/SRv6/SRv6+ technologies. >> >> Best Regards. >> >> Aijun Wang >> >> China Telecom >> >> *å‘件人:*spring-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *代表 *Robert Raszuk >> *å‘é€æ—¶é—´:*2019å¹´9月11æ—¥1:34 >> *收件人:*Sander Steffann >> *抄é€:*Ron Bonica; SPRING WG List; Andrew Alston; James Guichard; >> Shraddha Hegde; Rob Shakir; Zafar Ali (zali); Voyer, Daniel >> *主题:*Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring >> WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) >> >> Hi Sander, >> >> You keep saying SRv6 is complex. But it is only as complex as you are >> going to make it or as you will need it to be. >> >> No one is mandating you to do any network programming or to use >> multiple TLVs. If you just need to use SR for basic TE you insert one >> or two SIDs and you are done. If you want to also enable L3VPN you >> configure it in pretty much identical way regardless if this is SRv6 >> or SRv6+. >> >> I know I am not going to convince you, but just for the record it is >> worh to note that what get's send on the wire is only the information >> what you as the vendor need. The fact that spec has prepared encoding >> to also be useful for not only you but other operators does not make >> the solution "complex".  Otherwise we will end up with protocol per >> customer which would be pretty bad I am afraid. >> >> See many people say BGP is complex .... and it is the same here - BGP >> is as complex as you require it to be. You can enable BGP 1/1 with 4 >> lines of config. But if you need other address families if you need >> fancy policy you have all required tools for that on your keyboard. >> >> - - - >> >> Now point about SRv6+ ... see writing a drafts for it easy, Further >> even writing interop draft with SRv6 is also not that complex - day or >> two and you submit. But please tell me why any vendor who has been >> working in open IETF process on any new service for over 5 years now >> would have to put a lot of development resources on the table to >> develop data plane and control plane enhancements for essentially >> subset of functionality at best ? >> >> It is nothing about anyone's good will or not ... it is all about >> limited resources. Features and extensions are not added to any vendor >> based on the RFC translation engine. It is pretty difficult and >> painful process. So without huge market demand behind it I would be >> highly surprised if any vendor who committed to SRv6 already would now >> take real on support for SRv6+. >> >> Thank you, >> >> R. >> >> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:21 PM Sander Steffann > > wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> > No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting trapped in the SRv6 walled garden. >> > >> > The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do not like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to make sure the WG product is the best possible. >> > >> > So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardization. >> > >> > Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best counterproductive. >> >> No, something that today can do the same as SR-MPLS but over IPv6, >> with lots of space for future expansion, is something I like to >> see. Using IPv6 instead of MPLS already gives the benefit of >> unifying transport technologies. I'm not waiting for something >> feature packed with so many knobs and "special" (read: header >> insertion, bit shifting etc) that it will be much harder to work with. >> >> > It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts which woke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services you are running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality. >> >> That "without any new functionality" isn't exactly true either… >> >> > Would it make sense ? >> >> If those data plane and control plane drafts provide an easier way >> to do those things? Most definitely yes. >> >> It's the measuring progress by how many features and "cool" things >> are added that is a problem here. Progress also include making >> technology easier to manage, easier to understand, easier to >> debug, more accessible to average network engineers. >> >> Antoine de Saint Exupéry was right: “Perfection is achieved, not >> when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left >> to take away.†>> >> Cheers, >> Sander >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > From nobody Wed Sep 11 07:15:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B79FA120123 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 07:15:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, 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Andrew,

 

I would like to amplify something that you said. SR= v6 and SRv6+ are both designed to operate within limited domains. Beyon= d competing for market share, the existence of one does not threaten the existence of the other.

 

I do not oppose the progressing of the SRv6 drafts = (while, as a WG participant, I do reserve the right to comment on them). I = would hope that the proponents of SRv6 would extend the same courtesy to SRv6+.

 

        &nb= sp;            =              &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;         Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alsto= n@liquidtelecom.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 1:04 AM
To: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; Aijun Wang <wangaiju= n@tsinghua.org.cn>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk.net>; 'Sander S= teffann' <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; 'SPRING WG List' <spr= ing@ietf.org>; 'James Guichard' <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>; = Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; 'Rob Shakir' <robjs@google.= com>; 'Voyer, Daniel' <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>
Subject: RE: =B5=AA=CE`: [spring] Going back t= o the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

Ok, so couple of things.

 

I really think we need to clearly and totally divor= ce the comments on this list from those around SRH =A1V since =A1V there se= ems to be this kind of bizarre conflating of two issues, and while it=A1=A6s a nice piece of obfuscation =A1V let=A1=A6s be clear o= n a number of things.

 

  1. Almost every  object= ion on this list that I have seen has related directly to the NP and uSID d= rafts =A1V not towards the SRH draft which does not sit within this working= group.  The primary problem I see with the SRH draft is around overhead =A1V and well =A1V if people wish to live wit= h that level of overhead =A1V so be it =A1V but, that does not relate to th= e complexity, the violations of RFC8200 and the wholesale re-definition of = the address semantics as defined by RFC4291 that have been objected to here =A1V those issues are directly related to = the NP and uSID drafts.  Let=A1=A6s be clear on that.
  2. The constant citing of a = marketing document =A1V where almost everything in there is related to the = use of SRv6 in the context of the SRH =A1V again =A1V not in this working g= roup =A1V with little evidence or citation of use of the NP draft or the uSID drafts which are what we sound be discussi= ng here =A1V is, in my view, really stretching for support =A1V through an = obfuscation of items that while related are not the same thing

 

Now, there is also an argument I have seen that you= should not have two things that solve the same problem.  So, lets tal= k about the CRH for a second.  CRH does not address the same issues that the NP draft does =A1V it addresses an insane and ine= scapable overhead issue.  In the process of doing that, it provides, i= n my view, a cleaner version of the functionality of that contained in the = network programming draft and the uSID draft, without header insertion and without the burning of absolutely insane amou= nts of address space.  So again =A1V let=A1=A6s not conflate issues he= re.

 

Now =A1V I would ask this, and I have asked the que= stions before and not seen them addressed =A1V if they have been =A1V I wou= ld be more than happy to be corrected and be pointed to the emails that address these things

  1. Can someone explain how w= ith the use of NP proper aggregation is going to work
  2. Can someone please =A1V a= s per the request made by the chairs in Montreal =A1V supply an indication = of the address space burn that is required =A1V both in terms of the uSID d= raft and the NP draft
  3. Can the authors please ex= plain how either of these drafts is proposed to work in either an inter-asn= or inter-igp area scenario =A1V or =A1V is this explicitly and unequivocal= ly designed to work only within a single domain =A1V and if that is the case =A1V I=A1=A6d be happy to explain how = this would work with CRH =A1V and why there is an additional requirement fo= r CRH beyond the removal of the overhead
  4. In the case of uSID =A1V = can we get an explanation of how it is compatible with the network programm= ing draft outside of end point programming =A1V since the way I see it =A1V= if you=A1=A6re shifting bits to effectively perform =A1=A7routing by NAT=A1=A8 =A1V you=A1=A6re throwing away the locator bits= as defined in the network programming draft.  If the answer to this i= s to retain the entire SID list =A1V then the overhead reduction disappears= =A1V and at which point, please can someone explain to me why you would run uSID at all if you are doing this.
    5. Since we have had constan= t references to multiple platforms supporting this =A1V can we get a list o= f actual vendors and hardware that support the NP and uSID drafts in produc= tion today =A1V not SRH =A1V NP and uSID =A1V and inter-op tests between these platforms.  Let=A1=A6s separate the = issues here.

I will also say =A1V I do NOT oppose work continuin= g on SRH and SRv6 =A1V never have =A1V never will.  I also do not oppo= se work continuing on either the NP or uSID drafts =A1V provided the issues that have been raised =A1V time and again on this list are addr= essed.  However, I will also state that I do not believe that CRH perf= orms the same function as the NP draft, what it does is include the functio= nality involved in the NP draft, while solving an overhead issue =A1V and on that basis alone, outside of many other reas= ons, I believe that work on it should continue.

 

Over the last few days reading emails on this list = =A1V I fear a situation where both sides (and I include myself on this), ar= e feeling the need to attack each other =A1V and block the work on =A1=A7opposing=A1=A8 drafts.  Now, I can easily see how t= his could arise =A1V but =A1V I=A1=A6ll also say that I don=A1=A6t think it= s in the interests of the industry, or the operators, or well, anyone. = ; I would far rather see a situation where we work towards a productive solution =A1V let work continue on all of this, and then let the industry = decide which they want to use, and indeed, work towards a productive soluti= on where we have some interoperability.  And yes, as was alluded to, I= did raise the possibility of an inter-op draft to facilitate forward movement here, and I had only one vendor out o= f all the vendors I approached actually indicate opposition to this, so I w= ould ask now directly on list, can we work towards a situation where instea= d of all blocking each other =A1V work continues and we find a way to play nice, and indeed, inter-operate? = I really fear that the alternative is that this fight drags on forever, an= d in the mean time, vendors and operators alike continue to develop and dep= loy outside of the standardization =A1V and every day that continues =A1V we move further away from being able to = find a sane way to inter-operate.

 

There is a phrase that I have heard =A1V and perhap= s it applies here =A1V perhaps we need to put our guns down =A1V and find a= way to in which we can move forward that while it probably will not satisfy everyone, will be in the interests of the market in gener= al by avoiding a total standoff.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Andrew

 

From: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 11 September 2019 07:27
To: Aijun Wang <wang= aijun@tsinghua.org.cn>; 'Robert Raszuk' <robert@raszuk.net>; 'Sander Steffann' <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: 'Ron Bonica' <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; 'SPRING WG List'= <spring@ietf.org>; Andrew Als= ton <Andrew.Alston@li= quidtelecom.com>; 'James Guichard' <jam= es.n.guichard@futurewei.com>; 'Shraddha Hegde' <shraddha@juniper.net>; 'Rob Shakir' <robjs@google.com>; 'Voyer, Daniel' <daniel.voyer@b= ell.ca>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali= @cisco.com>
Subject: Re: =B5=AA=CE`: [spring] Going back t= o the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

<snip>

 

Hi, Robert:

 

But the concept of SRv6+ is more = clear than the SRv6(topology/service instruction separation; different inst= ruction carried in different IPv6 EH).

 

Hi Aijun,

 

Can you please various thread to gauge the complexi= ty, incompleteness and why CRH (aka SRv6+) makes no sense, e.g.,:

 

 

H= ope it helps,

<= o:p> 

Thanks

 

Regards =A1K Zafar

 

<snip><= o:p>

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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:33:29 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463E5AB3347F094C987B673AEB10BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, Are you suggesting an attempt to merge the best of SRv6 with the best of SR= v6+? This might be a good idea. Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 12:10 PM To: Sander Steffann Cc: Voyer, Daniel ; Ron Bonica ;= SPRING WG List ; Andrew Alston ; James Guichard ; Shraddha Hegde ; Rob Shakir ; Zafar Ali (zali) Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG= (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) Hi Sander, No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward, to avoid getting trapped = in the SRv6 walled garden. The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs) is that if you do not= like a specific element of a solution or if something is missing from any = solution during WG process - you contribute to it to either fix it or to ma= ke sure the WG product is the best possible. So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has been dealing with SRv6 = process to take an active part in its standardization. Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing new to already shippin= g solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4 or IPv6 is at best cou= nterproductive. It is like now you would be asking to adopt some individual drafts which wo= ke up and defined new data plane and new control plane for services you are= running in your network - and call those MPLS+, L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ w= ithout any new functionality. Would it make sense ? Kind regards, Robert Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463E5AB3347F094C987B673AEB10BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

Are you suggesting an attempt to merge the best of S= Rv6 with the best of SRv6+? This might be a good idea.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;          Ron

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 12:10 PM
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: Voyer, Daniel <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>; Ron Bonica <rboni= ca@juniper.net>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; Andrew Alston &= lt;Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>; James Guichard <james.n.guichard= @futurewei.com>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Sp= ring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

Hi Sander,

 

No. And that is why I want SRv6+ to move forward= , to avoid getting trapped in the SRv6 walled garden.

 

The way IETF works (at least in vast majority of WGs= ) is that if you do not like a specific element of a solution or if somethi= ng is missing from any solution during WG process - you contribute to it to= either fix it or to make sure the WG product is the best possible. 

 

So nothing prevented you for all the years IETF has = been dealing with SRv6 process to take an active part in its standardizatio= n. 

 

Asking for adoption of solution which brings nothing= new to already shipping solution of SR-MPLS when it would travel over IPv4= or IPv6 is at best counterproductive. 

 

It is like now you would be asking to adopt some ind= ividual drafts which woke up and defined new data plane and new control pla= ne for services you are running in your network - and call those MPLS+,= L2VPN+, L3VPN+ and mVPN+ without any new functionality. 

 

Would it make sense ? 

 

Kind regards,

Robert

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB5463F5B55FC935E94C864862AEB10BYAPR05MB5463namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 363e7f61-8ea6-402d-379a-08d736c83307 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Sep 2019 14:56:17.2665 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: s9bpFKRHQB5b/Ik/Rnhl0ICIpB6MtAGQ23xSQibDdLcU2R1xjN1jdFu9S4o4S3BzVfmzBphwJAgsHSYUXmijBw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB3976 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-11_08:2019-09-11,2019-09-11 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1906280000 definitions=main-1909110138 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 14:56:25 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463F5B55FC935E94C864862AEB10BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pablo, So, to make uSID work: * You have to get a large block (e.g., /32) from your RIR * You have to allocate a smaller block (e.g., /48) to each router for = uSIDs * You can't use more specifics from that block for anything else (e.g.,= numbering interfaces) * If you do, you may cause multiple SR paths to black hole Do I have this right? Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 10:12 AM To: Ron Bonica ; SPRING WG Subject: Re: [spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 Ron, SRv6 is based on IPv6 longest prefix match forwarding. You can shoot yourse= lf in the foot by adding bad routes. Cheers, Pablo. From: spring > on b= ehalf of Ron Bonica > Date: Tuesday, 6 August 2019 at 22:46 To: SPRING WG > Subject: [spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 Authors, Referring to the example in Section 5.2 of draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-ex= tension-srv6-usid-01, what would happen if Node 7 instantiated the followin= g: - A uSID identified by 2001:db8:0700/48 - A more specific route (e.g., 2001:db8:0700::/49) Would the more specific route be ignored by the longest path lookup on Node= 7? If not, would the more specific route cause all SR Paths whose penultim= ate segment is 2001:db8:0700/48 to black hole? = Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463F5B55FC935E94C864862AEB10BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pablo,

 

So, to make uSID work:

 

  • You have to get a large block (e.g., /32) from your RIR
  • You have to allocate a smaller block (e.g., /48)  to each rout= er for uSIDs
  • You can’t use more specifics from t= hat block for anything else (e.g., numbering interfaces)
    • If you do, you may cause multiple SR paths to black hole=

 

Do I have this right?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;     Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril= @cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 10:12 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; SPRING WG <spring@iet= f.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-u= sid-01

 

Ron,

 

SRv6 is based on IPv6 longest p= refix match forwarding. You can shoot yourself in the foot by adding bad ro= utes.

 

Cheers,

Pablo.

 

From: spring = <spring-bounces@ietf.org&= gt; on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Tuesday, 6 August 2019 at 22:46
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org= >
Subject: [spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-= 01

&n= bsp;

Authors= ,

 <= o:p>

Referri= ng to the example in Section 5.2 of draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid-01, what would happen if Node 7 instantiated the following:=

 <= o:p>

-    = ;      A uSID  identified by= 2001:db8:0700/48

-    = ;      A more specific route (e.g= ., 2001:db8:0700::/49)

 <= o:p>

Would t= he more specific route be ignored by the longest path lookup on Node 7? If = not, would the more specific route cause all SR Paths whose penultimate seg= ment is 2001:db8:0700/48 to black hole?

 <= o:p>

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;         Ron=

 <= o:p>

 <= o:p>

 <= o:p>

&n= bsp;

Juniper Business Us= e Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB5463F5B55FC935E94C864862AEB10BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Wed Sep 11 16:04:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BCA120865 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:03:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08pKRU9P0A19 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com (mail-oi1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09C59120BBD for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x233.google.com with SMTP id x7so15553387oie.13 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:03:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Rf5lWLBcGy1P8D3qWetyCK2f+bCKyksrDqnB3OX7XPk=; b=uQYwwzX0p3ac2DuykXnE6XSd6LHh5tpnyUthYhZNBlxaea3vskSIWP+i0tdYF0NVMS ZXZ9ZOzPY/Q+BGFkqdaXhZWI2GJ8oeDHvojEC9VWzJMDpy1zBBFyCxJ37mEzFzgbHS3u bduk/7CgFOwFhuLJBX+7f1I/2AvEr3a8jbSQ392leUaXNxISEgdTgQaUfZMK+svvc2at mFAX3W9nLninFwwuo30YMo3HVnd+xiYWND9CLDfQaG2uF4DQc0n1rmM4KIzK/vqNSJC8 X2+MZRa5C9AetGJ1hOvfdXzrOQOD73EaU24/D+TmXW1GEJYQjwsRJb8pAsym7QjfqqOy Ybjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Rf5lWLBcGy1P8D3qWetyCK2f+bCKyksrDqnB3OX7XPk=; b=QcPvatf+8rXch7/xftxleKYkozfTT6atqRaVoTgbxcrnyPORwpvQIYuOflmyL2dElH c5x/EJLXLhnXhPfq5cYzr+Ax6Z/rrjVVyyD8Xkfc5pPvghLk/cTLra7NBm16vlnJb7qD +ULwzqEiPTt3QvWrvhtYES4Sg/k3ocFEuLzqK7P3BSNVxYBs7YEjEmdZvxjUPZn5lZEs +h5gZHAOJqPs9Ly1k4JhtZuLgyC+TXLw2ZEByg1dGnnlgzeWN9/qXL14toa7xWd/dkaZ rQ5VlydIsRj26luJELBRDdG1uuiHJu4A3nyMbYe4Stls/O4Y/NqQsLAQPDpfGv01hn90 LqXA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWnv9tYRZFRxJeju/m6+yhVPPd3Qt729wLLHvmI6h7wwJXNxyaP EjXH8OCsX/xvNe1RFFwp/pz65YAva+DD1R/MzUI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyLayR9FyOGWEouu7wBS4W838xFoQHGG4+s9Z9qY3zotfcGEukURjzxGmfc9f6Ez88evvUHUc3ozzSS2ksz38M= X-Received: by 2002:aca:f3d4:: with SMTP id r203mr6024399oih.164.1568243035339; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 16:03:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4B3C8D30-3D7C-454E-BACF-CA10652ED364@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 09:03:44 +1000 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000affcb05924f0977" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 23:03:58 -0000 --0000000000000affcb05924f0977 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 00:56 Ron Bonica, wrote: > Pablo, > > > > So, to make uSID work: > > > > - You have to get a large block (e.g., /32) from your RIR > - You have to allocate a smaller block (e.g., /48) to each router for > uSIDs > - You can=E2=80=99t use more specifics from that block for anything el= se > (e.g., numbering interfaces) > - If you do, you may cause multiple SR paths to black hole > > + Ignore the subnet ID field definition - RFC 3587. + Ignore the IID field definition - RFC 4291. + Ensure your combined set of uSID values in the IID field don't end up being any of the reserved IID values - RFC 5453. I realised quite a while ago to overcome some early Ethernet MTU issues with MPLS, by, on a point to point Ethernet link, switching each end into promiscuous mode and then putting MPLS labels in the 12 octets of the now unused address fields. It should work although it is being non-obvious, and may cause unexpected problems. For example, switching on the "multicast bit" in the source address field actually says there is a Token Ring Route Information Field after the Ethernet header. Possibly useful hack, but not something I'd do by choice. Encoding uSIDs in IPv6 addresses is similar and could possibly cause more problems, because the domain or scope of transmission is much greater than a single point-to-point link. Regards, Mark. > - > > > > Do I have this right? > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 10, 2019 10:12 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica ; SPRING WG > *Subject:* Re: [spring] > draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 > > > > Ron, > > > > SRv6 is based on IPv6 longest prefix match forwarding. You can shoot > yourself in the foot by adding bad routes. > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Ron Bonica < > rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Date: *Tuesday, 6 August 2019 at 22:46 > *To: *SPRING WG > *Subject: *[spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01 > > > > Authors, > > > > Referring to the example in Section 5.2 of > draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-01, what would happen i= f > Node 7 instantiated the following: > > > > - A uSID identified by 2001:db8:0700/48 > > - A more specific route (e.g.., 2001:db8:0700::/49) > > > > Would the more specific route be ignored by the longest path lookup on > Node 7? If not, would the more specific route cause all SR Paths whose > penultimate segment is 2001:db8:0700/48 to black hole? > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000000affcb05924f0977 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 00:56 Ron Bonica, <rbonica=3D<= a href=3D"mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer= noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">40juniper.net@dmarc.ie= tf.org> wrote:

Pablo,

=C2=A0

So, to make uSID work:

=C2=A0

  • You have to get a large block (e.g., /32)= from your RIR
  • You have= to allocate a smaller block (e.g., /48) =C2=A0to each router for uSIDs<= /u>
  • You can=E2=80=99t use more= specifics from that block for anything else (e.g., numbering interfaces)
  • If you do, you may cause= multiple SR paths to black hole

+ Ignore the subnet ID fi= eld definition - RFC 3587.

+ Ignore the IID field definition - RFC 4291.
+ Ensure your combined set of uSID values in the I= ID field don't end up being any of the reserved IID values - RFC 5453.<= /div>


I realised quite a while ago to overcome some early Ethernet MTU issues= with MPLS, by, on a point to point Ethernet link, switching each end into = promiscuous mode and then putting MPLS labels in the 12 octets of the now u= nused address fields. It should work although it is being non-obvious, and = may cause unexpected problems. For example, switching on the "multicas= t bit" in the source address field actually says there is a Token Ring= Route Information Field after the Ethernet header.
=
Possibly useful hack, but not something I'd= do by choice. Encoding uSIDs in IPv6 addresses is similar and could possib= ly cause more problems, because the domain or scope of transmission is much= greater than a single point-to-point link.


Regards,
Mark.



=C2=A0

Do I have this right?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 10:12 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-u= sid-01

=C2=A0

Ron,

=C2=A0

SRv6 is based on IPv6 longest p= refix match forwarding. You can shoot yourself in the foot by adding bad ro= utes.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: spring = <spring-boun= ces@ietf.org> on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@d= marc.ietf.org>
Date: Tuesday, 6 August 2019 at 22:46
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension-srv6-usid-= 01

= =C2=A0

Authors= ,

=C2=A0<= u>

Referri= ng to the example in Section 5.2 of draft-filsfils-spring-net-pgm-extension= -srv6-usid-01, what would happen if Node 7 instantiated the following:

=C2=A0<= u>

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A uSID =C2=A0identified by 20= 01:db8:0700/48

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A more specific route (e.g..,= 2001:db8:0700::/49)

=C2=A0<= u>

Would t= he more specific route be ignored by the longest path lookup on Node 7? If = not, would the more specific route cause all SR Paths whose penultimate seg= ment is 2001:db8:0700/48 to black hole?

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

= =C2=A0

Juniper Business Us= e Only

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--0000000000000affcb05924f0977-- From nobody Wed Sep 11 17:57:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A87C120074; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q6ceKPu4X2QX; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.223]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7156712001A; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 17:57:48 -0700 (PDT) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.218:8433.1687684687 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-58.200.129.217?logid-A2A7E533B8424806BEA8D426F917893D (unknown [172.18.0.218]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id 6CC0A280093; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:57:41 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040161@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.218]) by App0025 with ESMTP id A2A7E533B8424806BEA8D426F917893D for spring@ietf.org; Thu Sep 12 08:57:45 2019 X-Transaction-ID: A2A7E533B8424806BEA8D426F917893D X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: xiechf@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.218 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 08:57:39 +0800 From: "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" To: List Cc: 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Robert Raszuk" , "Rob Shakir" , "Tarek Saad" References: , , , <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net>, <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com>, , <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net>, , , , <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com>, X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7, 2, 8, 379[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart588762267774_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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Hi, f= olks,
Last&nb= sp;year China Telecom begun to implement SRv= 6 trial in Sichun province for the bear= ing and interconnection of video platforms w= hich are  located in different cities, = service agilities,secure sepertion, traffic steering&n= bsp;and other features of SRv6 have been&nbs= p;demonstrated in this trial. Based on this,=  SRv6 will be implementated in larger-scale&= nbsp;in CT.
No technologies is 100% perfect,I agree&nbs= p;that compression mechanism is needed to re= duce the the overhead of long SID in&nb= sp;the long term, but it is better to&n= bsp;be compatible withe SRH, instead of desi= gning a complete new one. CRH is a = ;complete new design, it move the complexiti= es from SRH to DOH. 
Moreover, I hope more&nb= sp;efforts of SRv6 should be given on h= ow to support new services,for instance, App= lication-aware network (APN). Meanwhile, we should con= sider more on how to implmement smooth transition = ;and protect the network assetof carriers.=

=
Best regards
Chongfeng<= /div>

=0A
 
=
Date: 2019-09-09 21:31
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.
There seems to be so= me confusion regarding TI-LFA.
A couple of comments:
<= div class=3D"">
- Remote LFA tunnel is= not used with SR, only TI-LFA which 
  onl= y operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair).

- Any encapsulation on the= ingress PE with or without EH has nothing 
&nbs= p; to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE
  itself is the PLR.

- TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not = require one. 
  It is a purely local comput= ation based on IGP topology.

- The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SI= D
  list to steer the packet around the failure.= For the LFA base case
  no SIDs are needed at a= ll. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR 
  = will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case. 

  For SRv6, the equiv= alent operation to the label push is to 
  = insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already 
  have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in t= he most 
  common Internet or VPN base use = case it will not even have 
  an EH so that= this EH insertion will result only in a single EH.
<= br class=3D"">
  Alternatively, the PLR could al= so be configured to perform
  encapsulation with= a new IPv6 header using the repair SID
  as IPv= 6 destination address, without needing any EH.
 = This will work for the vast majority of cases. 
  Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases
  equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an
  adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SI= D.

  Only i= n extreme cases would the PLR need to add an 
&n= bsp; EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs.

- EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do= with stitching SRv6 domains.

Hope it helps.

Cheers
Dirk
Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>= :

From reading through all the discussion = threads the SR insertion is two fold one being for FRR capabilities using = Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end up requiring double EH insertions on th= e Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 source node and then second scenario bei= ng a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermediate nodes.  I have= not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since tha= t is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not the tradition= al MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so= not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA.  Can someone= clarify that use case for me.  Also the EH insertion on intermediate= node what is the use case or reason for that.  My guess is it=E2=80= =99s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together.  Please= clarify..


=0A ------=_001_NextPart588762267774_=------ From nobody Wed Sep 11 19:04:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DDD12003F for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:04:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LsoH2WwsVHCB for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1136D120013 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id f19so22426939eds.12 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:04:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fEJvcWYjYjqoNfs4AonsOznWO/F+9vW+Kziq5UCB2jY=; b=2BOWMRFzHfuRd8CyNpc0P/jIMTrlk5Ba+wflKJ5UhPxIHnR8teEmg67GOgUtbuYo9R ge0RD2EBMk1mJzhHYMQccv6E5X23H+F3bsHmR4tsqMz2m+yxZw+psgM4bJj+4KEoJSDP H0Uxa7dVUEU9nN4tB4sPwmAU7lgaiDk2fa6kZvmZ4Dkw3p5Jo6jE1gdbF+POuGEcpIVE 8U0sEZ2LoZ1ggEfDbIN5/0cGqc0eeJMdrZay/wiB1amo6SMAUugrILEKqYpy6Tolckix m3BvVxxAgojJMYf6gaif+uEGbdH+mE2kSJLwIaIPfOx002wHlvU5vokhdnkVnJYQY6AJ zF0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fEJvcWYjYjqoNfs4AonsOznWO/F+9vW+Kziq5UCB2jY=; b=fnn1ez96noI1u7QSGSzGXrebEvM6NRJrh/1gMcJ6aXdit5bfZx+wp5upKf+ls/wbyg biBlxcQMmtKa3EJq/ETAgm5G7STpiclf+QXE+kQuToJuzM5fqwZ7aL97J5DpPTVc7Hv/ lXwsAZSs/FVkk/h1yYm/7V9KJ/3PD06mDgNyjT48DfArkGVS8LB3QRbrxHkut6K/WNsF Y/HZ9YK72bG4o4OOYDbEAaRJ11pMgkC+1sfgClMGiynujfesfFkXSewZnzhzoPMm2WDW taFqv1U7DvsDidv2MtytYiF09VIYOG/EJyEb+YJ0FKjwKAZbmX0DD7nO3BBwjljPjBUT UTwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXAwOnibPvErxzekVOmb7lj9CwyEUCjoRE107NkUApz9FuFW7Lm DzsXL+bWKE3Y01o/J4F2G9LwCXz+beebHtYGUJBKJA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy6EnCMtHWUZxjoqI7Eg8SBvrMqM+r86fS8ZHZaSGs0feOtAL9D9Qwm2FDzHLbwnu6377ENdNsdlnBH05frZP8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4a19:: with SMTP id w25mr32664274eju.239.1568253878411; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:04:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> In-Reply-To: <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> From: Tom Herbert Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2019 19:04:26 -0700 Message-ID: To: "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" Cc: List , Rob Shakir , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Tarek Saad , Robert Raszuk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 02:04:44 -0000 On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 5:58 PM xiechf@chinatelecom.cn wrote: > > > Hi, folks, > Last year China Telecom begun to implement SRv6 trial in Sichun province = for the bearing and interconnection of video platforms which are located i= n different cities, service agilities,secure sepertion, traffic steering an= d other features of SRv6 have been demonstrated in this trial. Based on thi= s, SRv6 will be implementated in larger-scale in CT. > No technologies is 100% perfect,I agree that compression mechanism is nee= ded to reduce the the overhead of long SID in the long term, but it is bett= er to be compatible withe SRH, instead of designing a complete new one. CRH= is a complete new design, it move the complexities from SRH to DOH. > Moreover, I hope more efforts of SRv6 should be given on how to support n= ew services,for instance, Application-aware network (APN). Meanwhile, we sh= ould consider more on how to implmement smooth transition and protect the n= etwork assetof carriers. > Chongfeng, That presumes that SRv6 is a least common denominator in networks and indispensable core functionality. It's not. As already pointed there are existing alternatives that might be operative for adding services like APN. SRv6 is one manifestation, but not the only one-- there's NSH, SR-MPLS, other encapsulations, etc. From this POV, SRv6+, and even SRv6, is just another mechanism. Naturally, we want solutions that work across the broadest number of cases possible. So the question is: what are the common functionalities that could work across these different methods. In IPv6, it's DOH and HBH options that are common across all forms of routing header and packets. So, IMO, those should be considered first before investing in narrower solutions (i.e. TLVs is the routing header). There is a similar argument in security that AH should have been considered before creating a point solution in the HMAC of SRv6. Tom > Best regards > Chongfeng > > > From: Dirk Steinberg > Date: 2019-09-09 21:31 > To: Gyan Mishra > CC: SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk; Rob Shakir; Tarek Saad > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > There seems to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA. > A couple of comments: > > - Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which > only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair). > > - Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing > to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE > itself is the PLR. > > - TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one. > It is a purely local computation based on IGP topology. > > - The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID > list to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case > no SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR > will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case. > > For SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to > insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already > have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most > common Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have > an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH. > > Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform > encapsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID > as IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH. > This will work for the vast majority of cases. > Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases > equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an > adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID. > > Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an > EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs. > > - EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains. > > Hope it helps. > > Cheers > Dirk > > Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra : > > From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two f= old one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end= up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 s= ource node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurren= ce on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or RFC regard= ing Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaq= ue LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that a= dds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur = for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that use case for me. Also the EH inserti= on on intermediate node what is the use case or reason for that. My guess = is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together. P= lease clarify.. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Sep 11 20:41:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AB51200B7; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:41:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eGz7MnJdSWeq; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA4-Wyn.bell.ca (esa4-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CF30120086; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 20:41:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm5czo-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX02-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.33]) by esa04corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 11 Sep 2019 23:41:05 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX02-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120c::8eb6:120c) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 23:41:05 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::c426:98cc:c3a7:f8d2]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::c426:98cc:c3a7:f8d2%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 23:41:05 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , List CC: Rob Shakir , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Tarek Saad , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: AQHVZL2AD+D3qA4K6UCn/8wcduqXface9VOAgAKvwgCAAfpbgIADoVU7gAAi7mw= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 03:41:05 +0000 Message-ID: <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> References: , , , <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net>, <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com>, , <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net>, , , , <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com>, , <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> In-Reply-To: <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_156825966456462561bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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--_000_156825966456462561bellca_-- From nobody Wed Sep 11 22:19:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98AFF12080E; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:19:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UVk3niXEadt8; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11B1012004D; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 95D95C5F90E38BF67B43; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 06:19:36 +0100 (IST) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 06:19:35 +0100 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:19:22 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: "Bernier, Daniel" , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , List , 6man <6man@ietf.org> CC: Rob Shakir , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Tarek Saad , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: AQHVSwg4bJhHY8C9iEeQHX/XDCx3GacYBuYAgAHM44CAAA+hgIAD7CKAgAAERwCAAD40AIAAFqiAgAA2BoCAAADegIACr8IAgAH6W4CABGqZKf//p1mAgACcCZA= Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 05:19:22 +0000 Message-ID: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A3A12@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: , , , <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net>, <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com>, , <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net>, , , , <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com>, , <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.217.214] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A3A12nkgeml514mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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--_000_16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A3A12nkgeml514mbxchi_-- From nobody Wed Sep 11 22:30:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE7B12080E; Wed, 11 Sep 2019 22:30:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 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-0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:30:16 +1000 Message-ID: To: "Bernier, Daniel" Cc: "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , Rob Shakir , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Tarek Saad , Robert Raszuk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005c8a6c0592546f5f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 05:30:30 -0000 --0000000000005c8a6c0592546f5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's simple because IPv6 doesn't look past the fixed IPv6 header to perform its forwarding, and matches on the Destination Address to determine if to perform deeper packet host processing. You're building much more complicated forwarding services if you're going to be marching on TLVs etc. past the IPv6 fixed header. However vendors and carrier engineering groups like selling and deploying new gear, so I suppose that's ok. They don't have to operate it or fix it when it breaks. On Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 13:41 Bernier, Daniel, wrote: > +1 > > > The ability of using a single SRH to convey behaviour information wether > they are per-segment or per-path has proven to be very simple and quick t= o > define in various data plane targets. > > > At first analysis, trying to replicate with CRH + DOH variants, the logic > required for service programs is more com=E2=80=8Bplex. > > > What happens if I need TLVs mid-point in a path but not at its end (e.g. > referring to the Ole's ACME analogy) ? Would they now be defined in a > seg-end-opt or a vpn-dest-opt ? If seg-end-opt then it means non-interest= ed > midpoint devices will have to lookup beyond the TLVs to get to CRH for ne= xt > segment ? > > > Similar question would be on how would we implement proxy behaviours > either dynamic or static ? If I read > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt-04 correctly, > we then need NSH for richer service chains constructs (think Gi-LAN). Thi= s > means I need CRH, some variants of DOH + NSH=E2=80=8B. > > > I fail to see the simplicity there. > > > Dan B > ------------------------------ > *From:* spring on behalf of > xiechf@chinatelecom.cn > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:57 PM > *To:* List > *Cc:* Rob Shakir; 6man; Tarek Saad; Robert Raszuk > *Subject:* [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > Hi, folks, > > Last year China Telecom begun to implement SRv6 trial in Sichun province = for the bearing and interconnection of video platforms which are located i= n different cities, service agilities,secure sepertion, traffic steering an= d other features of SRv6 have been demonstrated in this trial. Based on thi= s, SRv6 will be implementated in larger-scale in CT. > > No technologies is 100% perfect,I agree that compression mechanism is nee= ded to reduce the the overhead of long SID in the long term, but it is bett= er to be compatible withe SRH, instead of designing a complete new one. CRH= is a complete new design, it move the complexities from SRH to DOH. > Moreover, I hope more efforts of SRv6 should be given on how to support n= ew services,for instance, Application-aware network > (APN). Meanwhile, we should consider more on > how to implmement smooth transition and protect the network assetof carri= ers. > > Best regards > Chongfeng > > > *From:* Dirk Steinberg > *Date:* 2019-09-09 21:31 > *To:* Gyan Mishra > *CC:* SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk > ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > There seems to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA. > A couple of comments: > > - Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which > only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair). > > - Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing > to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE > itself is the PLR. > > - TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one. > It is a purely local computation based on IGP topology. > > - The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID > list to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case > no SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR > will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case. > > For SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to > insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already > have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most > common Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have > an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH. > > Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform > encapsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID > as IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH. > This will work for the vast majority of cases. > Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases > equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an > adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID. > > Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an > EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs. > > - EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains. > > Hope it helps. > > Cheers > Dirk > > Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra : > > From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two > fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so > end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end > SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions > occurrence on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or > RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am > guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path > protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH > insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that use case f= or > me. Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or > reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitch= ing SRv6 > domains together. Please clarify.. > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000005c8a6c0592546f5f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's simple because IPv6 doesn't look past t= he fixed IPv6 header to perform its forwarding, and matches on the Destinat= ion Address to determine if to perform deeper packet host processing.
=


Y= ou're building much more complicated forwarding services if you're = going to be marching on TLVs etc. past the IPv6 fixed header.

However vendors and carrier engineeri= ng groups like selling and deploying new gear, so I suppose that's ok. = They don't have to operate it or fix it when it breaks.

On Th= u, 12 Sep 2019, 13:41 Bernier, Daniel, <daniel.bernier@bell.ca> wrote:

+1=C2=A0


The ability of using a single SRH to convey behaviour information wether= they are per-segment or per-path has proven to be very=C2=A0simple and qui= ck=C2=A0to define in various data=C2=A0plane targets.


At first analysis,=C2=A0trying to replicate with=C2=A0CRH + DOH variants= , the logic required for service programs is more com=E2=80=8Bplex.=C2=A0


What happens if I need=C2=A0TLVs mid-point in a path but not at its end = (e.g. referring to the Ole's ACME analogy)=C2=A0? Would they now be def= ined in a seg-end-opt or a vpn-dest-opt ? If seg-end-opt then it means non-= interested midpoint devices will have to lookup beyond the TLVs to get to CRH for next segment ?


Similar question would be=C2=A0on how would we implement proxy behaviour= s either dynamic or static ?=C2=A0If I read= =C2=A0ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt-04 correctly, we then need NSH for richer service chains constructs (think Gi= -LAN). This means I need CRH, some variants of DOH + NSH=E2=80=8B.=C2=A0


I fail to see=C2=A0the=C2=A0sim= plicity there.


Dan B

From:= spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of xiechf@ch= inatelecom.cn <xiechf@chinatelecom.cn>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:57 PM
To: List
Cc: Rob Shakir; 6man; Tarek Saad; Robert Raszuk
Subject: [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.
=C2=A0

Hi,=C2=A0folks,
Last=C2=A0year=C2=A0China=C2=A0Telecom=C2=A0begun=C2=A0to=C2=A0i= mplement=C2=A0SRv6=C2=A0trial=C2=A0in=C2=A0Sichun=C2=A0province=C2=A0for=C2= =A0the=C2=A0bearing=C2=A0and=C2=A0interconnection=C2=A0of=C2=A0video=C2=A0p= latforms=C2=A0which=C2=A0are=C2=A0=C2=A0located=C2=A0in=C2=A0different=C2= =A0cities,=C2=A0service=C2=A0agilities,secure=C2=A0sepertion,=C2=A0traffic= =C2=A0steering=C2=A0and=C2=A0other=C2=A0features=C2=A0of=C2=A0SRv6=C2=A0hav= e=C2=A0been=C2=A0demonstrated=C2=A0in=C2=A0this=C2=A0trial.=C2=A0Based=C2= =A0on=C2=A0this,=C2=A0SRv6=C2=A0will=C2=A0be=C2=A0implementated=C2=A0in=C2= =A0larger-scale=C2=A0in=C2=A0CT.
No=C2=A0technologies=C2=A0is=C2=A0100%=C2=A0perfect,I=C2=A0agree= =C2=A0that=C2=A0compression=C2=A0mechanism=C2=A0is=C2=A0needed=C2=A0to=C2= =A0reduce=C2=A0the=C2=A0the=C2=A0overhead=C2=A0of=C2=A0long=C2=A0SID=C2=A0i= n=C2=A0the=C2=A0long=C2=A0term,=C2=A0but=C2=A0it=C2=A0is=C2=A0better=C2=A0t= o=C2=A0be=C2=A0compatible=C2=A0withe=C2=A0SRH,=C2=A0instead=C2=A0of=C2=A0de= signing=C2=A0a=C2=A0complete=C2=A0new=C2=A0one.=C2=A0CRH=C2=A0is=C2=A0a=C2= =A0complete=C2=A0new=C2=A0design,=C2=A0it=C2=A0move=C2=A0the=C2=A0complexit= ies=C2=A0from=C2=A0SRH=C2=A0to=C2=A0DOH.=C2=A0
Moreover,=C2=A0I=C2=A0hope=C2=A0more=C2=A0efforts=C2=A0of=C2=A0S= Rv6=C2=A0should=C2=A0be=C2=A0given=C2=A0on=C2=A0how=C2=A0to=C2=A0support=C2= =A0new=C2=A0services,for=C2=A0instance,=C2=A0Application-aware=C2=A0network= (APN). Meanwhile,=C2=A0we=C2=A0should=C2=A0consider more on how=C2=A0to=C2= =A0implmement=C2=A0smooth=C2=A0transition=C2=A0and=C2=A0protect=C2=A0the=C2= =A0network=C2=A0assetof=C2=A0carriers.

Best=C2=A0regards
Chongfeng

=C2=A0
Dirk Steinberg
Date:=C2=A02019-09-09=C2=A021:31
To:=C2=A0Gyan Mishra
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.
There seems= to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA.
A couple of comments:

- Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which=C2=A0
=C2=A0 only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repai= r).

- Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing= =C2=A0
=C2=A0 to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress= PE
=C2=A0 itself is the PLR.

- TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 It is a purely local computation based on IGP topology.

- The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID
=C2=A0 list to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base c= ase
=C2=A0 no SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR= =C2=A0
=C2=A0 will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0 For SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to=C2= =A0
=C2=A0 insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will alread= y=C2=A0
=C2=A0 have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most=C2=A0<= /div>
=C2=A0 common Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have=C2= =A0
=C2=A0 an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH= .

=C2=A0 Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform
=C2=A0 encapsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID
=C2=A0 as IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH.
=C2=A0 This will work for the vast majority of cases.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases
=C2=A0 equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an
=C2=A0 adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID.

=C2=A0 Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an=C2=A0
=C2=A0 EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs.

- EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domain= s.

Hope it helps.

Cheers
Dirk

Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.co= m>:

>From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two fol= d one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end u= p requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 sou= rce node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermediate nodes.=C2=A0 I h= ave not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since t= hat is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditio= nal MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to= occur for Ti-LFA.=C2=A0 Can someone clarify that use case for me.=C2=A0 Al= so the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or reason for= that.=C2=A0 My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together.=C2=A0 Please clarify..


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /a>
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pablo, Section 4.19 is a bit vague. In the document, you say that an application can bind to an IPv6 address / = SID pair. Does this application have to reside on the SRv6 egress node? Or = can the application reside on and segment egress node? I believe the appli= cation can reside on any segment egress node, but I may be wrong. Does the IP stack duplicate the packet, forwarding one copy and sending the= other to the binding application? Or does the IP stack send the one and o= nly copy of the packet to the binding application? I believe that the IP st= ack sends the one and only copy of the packet to the binding application, b= ut I may be wrong. The document says that the binding application can modify the SRH. Can it m= odify anything else? The payload? Can it respond to the source, as if it we= re the ultimate destination? = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 10:15 AM To: Ron Bonica ; SPRING WG List ; 6ma= n@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 Ron, Sections 4.19 introduces how an SRv6 SID may be bound with a service instru= ction as introduced in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-1 Section 4.20 provides an informative reference on how to bind a service ins= truction with non-SR-aware applications. Cheers, Pablo. From: spring > on b= ehalf of Ron Bonica > Date: Friday, 6 September 2019 at 06:44 To: SPRING WG List >, "6man@ietf.or= g" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 Authors, Section 4 of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network programming has the title "Func= tions associated with a SID". Sections 4..1 through 4.18 enumerate function= s that can be associated with a SID, as one would expect. Sections 4.19 and 4.20 talk about something unrelated (SR-aware application= s and Non-SR-aware applications). Section 4.19 is vague, but sounds like it might allow transport layer infor= mation to be encoded in IPv6 addresses. You might want to clarify this. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463B18D61FF7A9522F9C4FDAEB00BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pablo,

 

Section 4.19 is a bit vague.

 

In the document, you say that an application can bin= d to an IPv6 address / SID pair. Does this application have to reside on th= e SRv6 egress node? Or can the application  reside on and segment egre= ss node? I believe the application can reside on any segment egress node, but I may be wrong.

 

Does the IP stack duplicate the packet, forwarding o= ne copy and sending the other to the binding application?  Or does the= IP stack send the one and only copy of the packet to the binding applicati= on? I believe that the IP stack sends the one and only copy of the packet to the binding application, but I may be w= rong.

 

The document says that the binding application can m= odify the SRH. Can it modify anything else? The payload? Can it respond to = the source, as if it were the ultimate destination?

 

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;            =           Ron<= /p>

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril= @cisco.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 10:15 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; SPRING WG List <sprin= g@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01<= o:p>

 

Ron,

 

Sections 4.19 introduces how an= SRv6 SID may be bound with a service instruction as introduced in https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-1

Section 4.20 provides an informative reference on ho= w to bind a service instruction with non-SR-aware applications.<= /p>

 

Cheers,

Pablo.

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on beha= lf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Friday, 6 September 2019 at 06:44
To: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>, "6man@ietf.org&quo= t; <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01=

 

Authors= ,

 <= o:p>

Section= 4 of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network programming has the title “Funct= ions associated with a SID”. Sections 4..1 through 4.18 enumerate fun= ctions that can be associated with a SID, as one would expect.

 <= o:p>

Section= s 4.19 and 4.20 talk about something unrelated (SR-aware applications and N= on-SR-aware applications).

 <= o:p>

Section= 4.19 is vague, but sounds like it might allow transport layer information = to be encoded in IPv6 addresses. You might want to clarify this.=

 <= o:p>

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;        Ron

 <= o:p>

 <= o:p>

&n= bsp;

Juniper Business Us= e Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB5463B18D61FF7A9522F9C4FDAEB00BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Thu Sep 12 07:22:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB3B120870 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:22:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c0HBWFr45gc5 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x529.google.com (mail-ed1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0252E1201A3 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x529.google.com with SMTP id f24so6512559edv.2 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:22:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oWCrgPfSRRE/MTtnRGR/LaiUlQGUy6cL8LquFHH+48s=; b=X2e/NAgTK7f8mFzSI5DQmg4e6tOf7R2H/TjsuaHOBuGZHUPNgn5g5P69WwQoat56Ca TaFqwAcGKBWckuhNJmoiOG9PERjuslVpBQPysSFIOkeefOvVfvi7Bff0sXlquMGUZsEW 2kT6628ImQX1LEmggzjYJWmy4xM1ZcnKxj1VQIdFxTO3gql7mjK1cEl8OiDBus5KQ5TK K0nCxcRHtlDC7nTJl/OXkN0uPr42muH+geTm9pqrFhMPwC+q2g8OIBYS0aYGoAIujL2g EvB8lQBcr5ddd+clcJRbptRiLAdP4+KggFDiREwGXeY+DgHhJTchXIQzb2XmUIhzx8zl OwKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oWCrgPfSRRE/MTtnRGR/LaiUlQGUy6cL8LquFHH+48s=; b=WI+oPyy4IegOVPzjHZSUMYwFlU8seqb5TJbjz6OXUzcxKQNDyzEdoi1mHTrOk0YhL2 3JW8j8xQNOESgA1bNrBeXbnqBOlshO7GBT4TLi/aZDWFHKs4kaPWFi9VgZFqmF32SkzJ VxVT/srjLEvBfYljXaJ6sIqHGE93vjF8KaoAn4HfYWESzR9OSSkfz6LqgAu6s2MQ35Oz mna6z7iGWgq9+8ELPbX6QwfgTvchy23DV//RLPHbGVX7Npu0W+0Us4H8flJzJedvh6zA Y5SknenkiVMQXKj4lgmq3vc1CfL37mHv+nfcN/P0xEwTYjfUl84jFIevsNrLLMBGcDOT JTOA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWQ7gAG0R1+9EIAv2Xv1wl0J+E9a9wCkAh8bojJQmATEfnmP4w1 zIUW05QsQaAWUNavzvmIN/ZUULQM83wWU39su6ZcQw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxo29dZ7DsGxfjoMErLuliNBskuVHfzTsaoT2UDSX2R2EEQ0pqcFcQiFtQzUDFtFaRNQzO3wmQK7/Fl2Bg1R2c= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d694:: with SMTP id d20mr34582555edr.226.1568298155412; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:22:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A3A12@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A3A12@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:22:23 -0700 Message-ID: To: Xiejingrong Cc: "Bernier, Daniel" , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , List , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad , Robert Raszuk Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 14:22:48 -0000 On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 10:20 PM Xiejingrong wrote= : > > +1 > > I think the need to =E2=80=98walk through the EH chain=E2=80=99 in fast-p= ath is difficult, for the last 2 decades, and will for the near future I gu= ess. > > The SRv6 is very careful not to =E2=80=98walk through the EH chain=E2=80= =99. > > Instead it just =E2=80=98handle the least leading header(s)=E2=80=99, wit= h a preceding =E2=80=98FIB lookup=E2=80=99 indication, and =E2=80=98FIB loo= kup=E2=80=99 is a step that will need to do in chip anyway for any packet. > Jingrong, You seem to be ignoring the fact that SRH includes its own TLV mechanism. There is no reason to believe that TLVs in the segment header can somehow be more efficiently processed than TLVs in Destination Options or Hop-by-Hop Options. Considering that there seems to be almost no implementation of segment routing TLVs (so far only Linux is reported to support it and even then the implementation is not conformant), I'm dubious of any claims that SRv6 is chip friendly or works in fast-path. If the idea is that TLVs in SRH really aren't needed and will never actually be used, then it would appear that the considerable effort in 6man WG trying to fix them was wasted on a mere academic exercise. Tom > This makes SRv6 deployable in chips for the first time of EH invention by= ISO and later by IPv6. > > This makes SRv6 the paradigm of handling any EH in chips In my opinion. > > > > One can check my understand on page 11 to 14 of the slides I prepared in = ietf105 (though got no time slot to present): > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-bier-bier-i= pv6-encapsulation-00.pdf > > > > DOH has it benefits, and is recommended in 8200, but the mix of many diff= erent EHs and different Option TLVs for a solution is obviously complex in = data-plane. > > Using a single EH to the best, with the appropriate preceding indication,= is simple, ordered, friendly to chip, direct, perfect. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/SgkSGtSBmB4G51ajnBp3UbjJl8I > > > > Thanks > > Jingrong > > > > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Danie= l > Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 11:41 AM > To: xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; List > Cc: Rob Shakir ; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Tarek Saad ; Robert Raszuk > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > +1 > > > > The ability of using a single SRH to convey behaviour information wether = they are per-segment or per-path has proven to be very simple and quick to = define in various data plane targets. > > > > At first analysis, trying to replicate with CRH + DOH variants, the logic= required for service programs is more complex. > > > > What happens if I need TLVs mid-point in a path but not at its end (e.g. = referring to the Ole's ACME analogy) ? Would they now be defined in a seg-e= nd-opt or a vpn-dest-opt ? If seg-end-opt then it means non-interested midp= oint devices will have to lookup beyond the TLVs to get to CRH for next seg= ment ? > > > > Similar question would be on how would we implement proxy behaviours eith= er dynamic or static ? If I read https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6= man-seg-end-opt-04 correctly, we then need NSH for richer service chains co= nstructs (think Gi-LAN). This means I need CRH, some variants of DOH + NSH. > > > > I fail to see the simplicity there. > > > > Dan B > > ________________________________ > > From: spring on behalf of xiechf@chinatelecom.c= n > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:57 PM > To: List > Cc: Rob Shakir; 6man; Tarek Saad; Robert Raszuk > Subject: [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > > > Hi, folks, > > Last year China Telecom begun to implement SRv6 trial in Sichun province = for the bearing and interconnection of video platforms which are located i= n different cities, service agilities,secure sepertion, traffic steering an= d other features of SRv6 have been demonstrated in this trial. Based on thi= s, SRv6 will be implementated in larger-scale in CT. > > No technologies is 100% perfect,I agree that compression mechanism is nee= ded to reduce the the overhead of long SID in the long term, but it is bett= er to be compatible withe SRH, instead of designing a complete new one. CRH= is a complete new design, it move the complexities from SRH to DOH. > > Moreover, I hope more efforts of SRv6 should be given on how to support n= ew services,for instance, Application-aware network (APN). Meanwhile, we sh= ould consider more on how to implmement smooth transition and protect the n= etwork assetof carriers. > > > > Best regards > > Chongfeng > > > > > > From: Dirk Steinberg > > Date: 2019-09-09 21:31 > > To: Gyan Mishra > > CC: SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk; Rob Shakir; Tarek Saad > > Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > There seems to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA. > > A couple of comments: > > > > - Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which > > only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair). > > > > - Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing > > to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE > > itself is the PLR. > > > > - TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one. > > It is a purely local computation based on IGP topology. > > > > - The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID > > list to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case > > no SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR > > will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case. > > > > For SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to > > insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already > > have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most > > common Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have > > an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH. > > > > Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform > > encapsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID > > as IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH. > > This will work for the vast majority of cases. > > Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases > > equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an > > adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID. > > > > Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an > > EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs. > > > > - EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains. > > > > Hope it helps. > > > > Cheers > > Dirk > > > > Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra : > > > > From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two f= old one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end= up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 s= ource node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurren= ce on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or RFC regard= ing Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaq= ue LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection that a= dds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to occur = for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that use case for me. Also the EH inserti= on on intermediate node what is the use case or reason for that. My guess = is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together. P= lease clarify.. > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Sep 12 07:58:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12A5120123; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:58:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mhL3x838In89; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FC2A120142; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0108163.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id x8CEt0Aj003982; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:57:36 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=juniper.net; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : mime-version; s=PPS1017; bh=w8HXMyY5gUyFrc/wxaZU38YnpoEVxdEp8YO4o9HP220=; b=PX0X+MmXHzrgtY+S+6Oop87a72tK05At9M+g0pwsjIw2qbGENeRdJI/m0XqIeorIBdgo wkwe/GQpUNT3RkDsZmc4gC/oyAsLkDMrDw/THcKHdFvjhwsccOMNZeYRNdlBhTUJxzyg xiNqPB2qi6C2ILd8nc5dcPSxWp+oNGSNO8HNhgFeqAu3I7ki5gl7xtm6A8TXOKbPomD3 qsQDsueWClqmVEU3TKFu9AUbg/6nD/KYvZRVt98p2uXrYVd05YAw4ndEEVmAwk4Ugb/u FX2p8kQeYNAAghvlmYanrpnyTj4guNDDr6iyx1eb9KoUqXqcYlijwlPOeXbQadCqKpbV mQ== Received: from nam02-sn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02lp2056.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.56]) by mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 2uyb5f9aqg-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 12 Sep 2019 07:57:36 -0700 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=OAJjO2WsWD7k05uZ6hLCzROPQEjuA6NUYiReYCGCGLTACgFmrXIC8LZ3PBuVmVvkdoQnrTUPufOQG9PTu3RxbK8D/q8vDSpwGAt2zsJ2VWhkEnn/rToQxTy3xxmSt5z7aCnqw6hBE7YRMUZ4bsIlz01D61x6ywPwdLTWG3IOIZ/JprtzOR/VCuZHdFbqCoLm/jaNVrjTCtH7eElib0euZt+SVHB/P0l902V5jPUkaku2IBgD9gTXAuHF5nveGaVKnvok7Gc9/vXMXeIXHQLXP5efAKol6Qu96fsoKUWwl4XPQyTLrnIJBJqpwVHm/ujVVLCuIqGSUfaO0WTcf/BqTA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=w8HXMyY5gUyFrc/wxaZU38YnpoEVxdEp8YO4o9HP220=; b=i1wd+b1wviWBV6JW3LUsKtZ3J2hynFYtC1IfqZS4lXktw8c/DHNATZJ0RrCPNzR+zJRsunrHYraiK2yI/PUDL/rqi2lDwuxwIJcDSKjY5J8Ua+fFpAAHPBTyrNsh7o/lRPRJ3gUi60uOX6cLBG/4uD+gH/PIW19vaHXgLMTKvWZ2/jWvl8xQgjEDvBMvER+N0TXeN18x45yjy2ynbxE2uV9/kH4YrpZ99atEkeCJZMvBhy3NnpqEElDuD8A9jdOrWWBzLVhZREKizjZe8Yt3N/C/6MX2rssrruUoPspj9d2xN/drtkRYi13BnQxrpLITJ2uoqSMS3Je3JcRgeMEIaQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=juniper.net; dkim=pass header.d=juniper.net; arc=none Received: from BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.177.185.144) by BYAPR05MB4117.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.201.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2263.7; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 14:57:34 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f4f2:f284:d49a:890a]) by BYAPR05MB5463.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f4f2:f284:d49a:890a%4]) with mapi id 15.20.2263.018; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 14:57:34 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , List CC: Rob Shakir , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Tarek Saad , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JMc2QG5JnheL; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 229F612026E; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46Tm186xgqztVg8; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:27:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1568309244; bh=u80zMuDlBCauqiqpr9J57m5b1tAYqtaQIbvjV3ObMdI=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=kMH+5n8xZb9H0JN0vdJZvxRR+SLNPOiu3G080BgbwjQRSUAzvIpBm3SbLgK4zf3le WS5W6zu8dlj3FSB2F/EnraS9MUsDbQxii2Q4HtDVxoo9MbNldaqMuDTu/av33c4gzM lm1j4Kpl8R2HJM/zrh6Miky0oLGV2s/vl69bEKAs= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.7.244] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46Tm1804sHztVfn; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:27:23 -0700 (PDT) To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , SPRING WG Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:27:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:27:33 -0000 While that proposal does remove the mis-use of next-header 59, it seems a very odd use. It seems to be an effort to avoid needing to register next-header values. Why? For example, if what is carried after the SRH is an IPv6 packet then the next header value for IPv6 (41) would seem the appropriate thing to use. That would produce consistent parsing and clarity. Yours, Joel On 9/12/2019 1:01 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > Hi all, > > Following the comments from IETF105, the working group preferred to > allocate a new Next Header value. > > The authors would like to propose this diff. Any feedback is welcome. > > > >    9.  IANA Considerations > >       This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > >    9.  IANA Considerations > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number value > for “SRv6 payload†with the following definition: > > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any > extension header indicates that the payload content is identified via > the segment identifier in the IPv6 Destination Address. > >       This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > We would propose to submit a revision with this text on the IANA section > of NET-PGM beginning of next week. > > Thanks, > Pablo. > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > From nobody Thu Sep 12 10:36:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost 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Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:43:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1568310232; bh=sb8XjsEbzNAQEfEcBDYKegQTZxMnaJJrvHHw8MzO3Hc=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=CXZHCbo6p9tk58BLIURwx54GgZX79APN68dV1mJtS00RXv4XSpYHjKNU11OC+wWtm UfH7lHcqO/h8XEaNe5HDLss1d79wxA69hwsG2OCUr4C4Dy1zJTXGHhv+Fqzmk0Yuz8 jpSQWeyoNKWiUMGj0QboJadV9Wi/SVr5YOPM/VLE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.7.244] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46TmN74nRTzPwCC; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:43:51 -0700 (PDT) To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , SPRING WG Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:43:50 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:43:55 -0000 1) The way you wrote the text, it would apply to carried IPv4 or carried IPv6. 2) If it is carried Ethernet, us 97. 2') If you insist that you need a new format for carried Ethernet after SRH, get a code point for that. 3) If there is some other use case, document it and get a code point for it. particularly given that SID meanings may not be registered, removing teh ability to tell what the payload is seems a drawback, not a benefit. Yours, Joel On 9/12/2019 1:39 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > Joel, > > This NH value is to be used when the payload does not contain any Internet Protocol. > > Cheers, > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Joel M. Halpern" > Date: Thursday, 12 September 2019 at 19:27 > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , SPRING WG > Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure > > While that proposal does remove the mis-use of next-header 59, it seems > a very odd use. > It seems to be an effort to avoid needing to register next-header > values. Why? > > For example, if what is carried after the SRH is an IPv6 packet then the > next header value for IPv6 (41) would seem the appropriate thing to use. > That would produce consistent parsing and clarity. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 9/12/2019 1:01 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Following the comments from IETF105, the working group preferred to > > allocate a new Next Header value. > > > > The authors would like to propose this diff. Any feedback is welcome. > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number value > > for “SRv6 payload†with the following definition: > > > > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any > > extension header indicates that the payload content is identified via > > the segment identifier in the IPv6 Destination Address. > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > We would propose to submit a revision with this text on the IANA section > > of NET-PGM beginning of next week. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > From nobody Thu Sep 12 10:45:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33877120849; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:45:18 -0700 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Nwn9bI9Rj6I5BSA2bPJw+GEv0/e1mOV+gc1+znjssZhLcNc5v9/KCu4xCxJrVFf6CWOYPM+r+v9XQxjOK0VD5g== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6583 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-12_09:2019-09-11,2019-09-12 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909120188 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 17:56:49 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB546359735A6ED648CEC378C8AEB00BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pablo, I agree. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:45 PM To: Ron Bonica ; SPRING WG List ; 6ma= n@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 Ron, I agree that the text for those two sections is unclear. Given that this is already covered in depth in draft-xuclad-spring-sr-servi= ce-programming, I would propose to remove sections 4.19 and 4.20 from Netwo= rk-Programming. Thanks, Pablo From: Ron Bonica > Date: Thursday, 12 September 2019 at 15:31 To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" >, SPRING WG List >, "6man@ietf= .org" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: RE: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 Pablo, Section 4.19 is a bit vague. In the document, you say that an application can bind to an IPv6 address / = SID pair. Does this application have to reside on the SRv6 egress node? Or = can the application reside on and segment egress node? I believe the appli= cation can reside on any segment egress node, but I may be wrong. Does the IP stack duplicate the packet, forwarding one copy and sending the= other to the binding application? Or does the IP stack send the one and o= nly copy of the packet to the binding application? I believe that the IP st= ack sends the one and only copy of the packet to the binding application, b= ut I may be wrong. The document says that the binding application can modify the SRH. Can it m= odify anything else? The payload? Can it respond to the source, as if it we= re the ultimate destination? = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 10:15 AM To: Ron Bonica >; SPRING WG= List >; 6man@ietf.org Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 Ron, Sections 4.19 introduces how an SRv6 SID may be bound with a service instru= ction as introduced in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-1 Section 4.20 provides an informative reference on how to bind a service ins= truction with non-SR-aware applications. Cheers, Pablo. From: spring > on b= ehalf of Ron Bonica > Date: Friday, 6 September 2019 at 06:44 To: SPRING WG List >, "6man@ietf.or= g" <6man@ietf.org> Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01 Authors, Section 4 of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network programming has the title "Func= tions associated with a SID". Sections 4..1 through 4.18 enumerate function= s that can be associated with a SID, as one would expect. Sections 4.19 and 4.20 talk about something unrelated (SR-aware application= s and Non-SR-aware applications). Section 4.19 is vague, but sounds like it might allow transport layer infor= mation to be encoded in IPv6 addresses. You might want to clarify this. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB546359735A6ED648CEC378C8AEB00BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pablo,

 

I agree.

 

        &nbs= p;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril= @cisco.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:45 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; SPRING WG List <sprin= g@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01<= o:p>

 

Ron,

 

I agree that the text for those two sections is uncl= ear.

Given that this is already covered in depth in draft= -xuclad-spring-sr-service-programming, I would propose to remove sections 4= .19 and 4.20 from Network-Programming.

 

Thanks,
Pablo

 

From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 September 2019 at 15:31
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" <6= man@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01<= o:p>

 

Pablo,

 

Section 4.19 is a bit vag= ue.

 

In the document, you say = that an application can bind to an IPv6 address / SID pair. Does this appli= cation have to reside on the SRv6 egress node? Or can the application  = ;reside on and segment egress node? I believe the application can reside on any segment egress node, but I may be wrong.=

 

Does the IP stack duplica= te the packet, forwarding one copy and sending the other to the binding app= lication?  Or does the IP stack send the one and only copy of the pack= et to the binding application? I believe that the IP stack sends the one and only copy of the packet to the binding= application, but I may be wrong.

 

The document says that th= e binding application can modify the SRH. Can it modify anything else? The = payload? Can it respond to the source, as if it were the ultimate destinati= on?

 

 

    &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =   Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Pablo Camari= llo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com= >
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 10:15 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; SPRING WG List <sp= ring@ietf.org>; 6man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01<= o:p>

 

Ron,=

&nbs= p;

Sect= ions 4.19 introduces how an SRv6 SID may be bound with a service instructio= n as introduced in https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-1

Section 4.20 provides an = informative reference on how to bind a service instruction with non-SR-awar= e applications.

&nbs= p;

Chee= rs,

Pabl= o.

&nbs= p;

From: spring <<= span lang=3D"ES">spring-bounces@ietf.org<= span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">> on behalf of Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Friday, 6 September 2019 at 06:44
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.= org>, &qu= ot;6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-01

 

Authors,

 

Section 4 of draft-ietf-= spring-srv6-network programming has the title “Functions associated w= ith a SID”. Sections 4..1 through 4.18 enumerate functions that can b= e associated with a SID, as one would expect.

 

Sections 4.19 and 4.20 t= alk about something unrelated (SR-aware applications and Non-SR-aware appli= cations).

 

Section 4.19 is vague, b= ut sounds like it might allow transport layer information to be encoded in = IPv6 addresses. You might want to clarify this.

 

    =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;             = ;            &n= bsp;     Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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Thread-Index: AQHVaZd8SaOY2u3WVEC2YBfBMljE6Q== Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 18:25:42 +0000 Message-ID: <5B57874F-8C54-4E82-BB55-A2B6585B6AE6@bell.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.e.190909 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.28.92.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5B57874F8C544E82BB55A2B6585B6AE6bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tczEAEj3mzYX0p6roO2GN0etOWOb3+YtZ3F69L+XAf4=; b=esy5vbvGU8lIVGB9Seq5G23woUtHgOT/e8+l7SQExUPn7CgpN2ZTt/6pupTJTl59tk L8DTtM5yS6TQanBYTuHxdJZjncEAZ1vwPxZw0m8xYj47pesj7vdTzRVoHTH6VXVB3exG mYsuyJeabQiyLyLn1d/qvcWbaA0vCoBZ5b8T+lZGdnltUcbbMQlw4mGhoU7ISU2jWtYI JVK7jPbo5l8qvB1C+oToNlwGWg34LALKFMN/SwFBytStpJfzCMYgVtT3AEJtUC099QRQ a20JaVQT32yMEVqY/C6Nvii5rQH63SyYGGib8GJO34Vv1NutloDhgbfvp9tfqdSZN2ED 0EHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX7K0AXBcsZKn5pj7wlM4RJI7C+FjK2q4F9Pu76Qh0CVKz6PAb7 NGnPgpgsf4fwG9RjWtTgLOdRz2EN5P9wuRhob5C9WA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw7kces3X+dM/jgrpW5d7wcsp6hQ+VqNEU7VeXOnva1gsBKQj7wB6kv52oZOlKh0lKJ/LO0ra28ugKaQZewTN0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:b808:: with SMTP id dv8mr26577078ejb.119.1568315538853; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:12:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:12:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 19:12:23 -0000 On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:02 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Hi all, > > Following the comments from IETF105, the working group preferred to alloc= ate a new Next Header value. > > The authors would like to propose this diff. Any feedback is welcome. > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number value fo= r =E2=80=9CSRv6 payload=E2=80=9D with the following definition: > > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any extension= header indicates that the payload content is identified via the segment id= entifier in the IPv6 Destination Address. > This seems like an extremely narrow use case to justify an IP Protocol Number allocation. If this is the route taken, I would suggest to define something more generic like "Interpreted" which could mean that there is a next header, but it's interpretation requires information elsewhere in the packet. That way the number could potentially be used in other contexts than just SR. Tom > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > We would propose to submit a revision with this text on the IANA section = of NET-PGM beginning of next week. > > Thanks, > Pablo. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Sep 12 12:34:18 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4E2120928 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:34:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mTVdi60nLqwY for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53D2A1208EB for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id u184so22797435qkd.4 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:33:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JR0m28GNnPanNWRBD1A7Y8ApjnYlU+bYLBpQH2n7ND8=; b=JMngjONzkJaXNcxYXBPK+hpU3/xcTBwpyIf/Jjq5TdC/ri/AGNVv2HkbIxE1J+YLli WLG2sOjdE2X8wbHNDj/kYFfYQOmWXWlnIvg78vFnigG7ZDiy+uNJ8Kdzc7XegntLJtxk GhPC+9fuqv1q834IoRgH9I1+bi+/ZbIFDTjl7xkDqFIod+CuhdIq8Z/h2P8TH6R4MktN GiNgRGeUbeZOb7b3Giwh5fkm0sKFgJavHqNmnAofdJhFD0V98gr5uK7HALae/c8t6V+p kC4fhzSVBGr/Gv4dZSXzXFlTdpEa9K7MPo73ogoEjpdr5EmW3vi4Np36Pu9GeXckkvFV DCjw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JR0m28GNnPanNWRBD1A7Y8ApjnYlU+bYLBpQH2n7ND8=; b=Iu5go+unOpO6Qr1Uus3O/HbYsSowPKn6iCNGZTsFXdlWrCVKbPMhJrATZzf/5U1bid MZ+Baq+TFJb8HcUwu7ynG4I/qRVMeWr1f/pqYyUBo0ozVAofcHyns+/OETPNRwRvBeb9 YW1aisYkyn6NUL9nJahMm19/8krIjT/nbh0JdOlJ0Vx+4FD4aNONdzNm5JOX15kkzNQ4 wz6oHE3SMwqNgDyzwTnsFD5Feja5GatHWvbLh0iPdQnJSE/0FruEoijPIwFOEGUHq/5p ay9xtrCb6sTwSgIpfjZJikd8/7fGji7OmnnUr8qiA3BoeX56p6/xJA3iFGN7dUamQHnq oAwA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXHaETjR40JCh5KeUpTXfpp17beHInbprFvia+kl/j5n8n7uTCX wJpg+UD6y07Pvd2kWk0jj4//sfMalBbEGwh7f7FSqA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwxwDbqjwUHuifoa7AaKym8sKQ9jyhG8cXWQdImhCXsvnvOb/cnsVoH+B868AryI7qlQR72tvEDWbQdwEuQwmE= X-Received: by 2002:a37:8547:: with SMTP id h68mr41774547qkd.219.1568316838069; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 12:33:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5B57874F-8C54-4E82-BB55-A2B6585B6AE6@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 21:33:48 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" , Mark Smith , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000075c950592603821" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 19:34:08 -0000 --000000000000075c950592603821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ron, I was trying to stop responding but its pretty hard when I see such post like your last one ... > A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces all of the following SID Please understand that this is like stating that: "A single new additional airport replaces all the planes which operate to the old airport. " At most you could say that single new PPSI could contain 2^32 SR functions which you call in your draft as "PPSI identifiers" From your documents it also seems that you are defining a service instruction identifier in a flat space which can contain the demux for the following technologies: o Layer 2 VPN (L2VPN) [RFC6624 ]. o Layer 3 VPN (L3VPN) [RFC4364 ]. o Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) [RFC4761 ][RFC4762]. o Ethernet VPN (EVPN) [RFC7432 ]. o Pseudowires [RFC8077 ]. It also needs to be observed that putting all of those services into single flat table lookup is not a sound design. But what is most important that common hardware reads just entire header then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense to encode SR SIDs and related functions and their parameters in the same EH rather then scatter them around. Thank you, R. On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:51 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Daniel, > > > > Not really. A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces all of the following > SIDs: > > > > - END.DX2 > - END.DX2V > - END.DX2U > - END.DX2M > - END.DT4 > - END.DX4 > - END.DT6 > - END.DX6 > - END.DT46 > - END.T > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Bernier, Daniel > *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 2:26 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica ; Mark Smith > > *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG ; 6man < > 6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn= ; > Tarek Saad > *Subject:* RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > That was precisely my point > > > > Having been involved in pushing SRv6 END behaviours in various targets, I > can first hand say that the primitives behind SRH processing is quite > simple to extend. In your extensibility model, every predefined or custom > behavior becomes a new DOH. On SRH, the EH does not change I just need to > inform the data plane that when receiving a packet with a specific SID in > SRH, do this internal processing. > > > > > > On 2019-09-12, 12:34 PM, "Ron Bonica" wrote: > > > > Mark, > > > > I think that you may have exposed yet another elephant in the room=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6 > > > > IPv6 defines a robust extensibility architecture, that includes multiple > extension headers. Initially, IPv6 adoption was slow and router vendors > were not highly motivated commit extension headers to ASICs. Also, in tho= se > days, ASICs were not so capable as they are today. > > > > From the above-mentioned data points, we should not infer that it is > beyond the capability of a modern vendor to develop an ASIC that supports= a > more complete set of extension headers. Two things have changed. As IPv6 > adoption progresses, vendors are becoming more committed to IPv6. Beyond > that, ASICs have become more capable over the decades. > > > > We shouldn=E2=80=99t abandon the IPv6 extensibility architecture based on= a claim > that ASICs cannot and will never be able to process multiple extension > headers. > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > *From:* ipv6 *On Behalf Of *Mark Smith > *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:30 AM > *To:* EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca > *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG ; 6man < > 6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn= ; > Tarek Saad > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > It's simple because IPv6 doesn't look past the fixed IPv6 header to > perform its forwarding, and matches on the Destination Address to determi= ne > if to perform deeper packet host processing. > > > > > > You're building much more complicated forwarding services if you're going > to be marching on TLVs etc. past the IPv6 fixed header. > > > > However vendors and carrier engineering groups like selling and deploying > new gear, so I suppose that's ok. They don't have to operate it or fix it > when it breaks. > > On Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 13:41 Bernier, Daniel, > wrote: > > +1 > > > > The ability of using a single SRH to convey behaviour information wether > they are per-segment or per-path has proven to be very simple and quick t= o > define in various data plane targets. > > > > At first analysis, trying to replicate with CRH + DOH variants, the logic > required for service programs is more com=E2=80=8Bplex. > > > > What happens if I need TLVs mid-point in a path but not at its end (e.g. > referring to the Ole's ACME analogy) ? Would they now be defined in a > seg-end-opt or a vpn-dest-opt ? If seg-end-opt then it means non-interest= ed > midpoint devices will have to lookup beyond the TLVs to get to CRH for ne= xt > segment ? > > > > Similar question would be on how would we implement proxy behaviours > either dynamic or static ? If I read > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt-04 > > correctly, we then need NSH for richer service chains constructs (think > Gi-LAN). This means I need CRH, some variants of DOH + NSH=E2=80=8B. > > > > I fail to see the simplicity there. > > > > Dan B > ------------------------------ > > *From:* spring on behalf of > xiechf@chinatelecom.cn > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:57 PM > *To:* List > *Cc:* Rob Shakir; 6man; Tarek Saad; Robert Raszuk > *Subject:* [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > > > Hi, folks, > > > Last year China Telecom begun to implement SRv6 trial in Sichun province = for the bearing and interconnection of video platforms which are located i= n different cities, service agilities,secure sepertion, traffic steering an= d other features of SRv6 have been demonstrated in this trial. Based on thi= s, SRv6 will be implementated in larger-scale in CT. > > > No technologies is 100% perfect,I agree that compression mechanism is nee= ded to reduce the the overhead of long SID in the long term, but it is bett= er to be compatible withe SRH, instead of designing a complete new one. CRH= is a complete new design, it move the complexities from SRH to DOH. > > Moreover, I hope more efforts of SRv6 should be given on how to support n= ew services,for instance, Application-aware network > (APN). Meanwhile, we should consider more on > how to implmement smooth transition and protect the network assetof carri= ers. > > > > Best regards > > Chongfeng > > > > > > *From:* Dirk Steinberg > > *Date:* 2019-09-09 21:31 > > *To:* Gyan Mishra > > *CC:* SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk > ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad > > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > There seems to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA. > > A couple of comments: > > > > - Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which > > only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair). > > > > - Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing > > to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE > > itself is the PLR. > > > > - TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one. > > It is a purely local computation based on IGP topology. > > > > - The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID > > list to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case > > no SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR > > will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case. > > > > For SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to > > insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already > > have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most > > common Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have > > an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH.. > > > > Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform > > encapsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID > > as IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH. > > This will work for the vast majority of cases. > > Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases > > equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an > > adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID. > > > > Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an > > EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs. > > > > - EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains. > > > > Hope it helps. > > > > Cheers > > Dirk > > > > Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra : > > > > >From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two > fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so > end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end > SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions > occurrence on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or > RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am > guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path > protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH > insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that use case f= or > me. Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or > reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitch= ing SRv6 > domains together. Please clarify.. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > --000000000000075c950592603821 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ron,

I was trying to stop respondi= ng but its pretty hard when I see such post like your last one ...=C2=A0

> A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces al= l of the following SID=C2=A0=C2=A0

Please unde= rstand that this is like stating that:

"A sin= gle new additional airport replaces all the planes which operate to the old= airport. "

At most you could say that single= new PPSI could contain 2^32 SR functions which you call in your draft as &= quot;PPSI identifiers&= quot;=C2=A0 From your documents it also seems that you are defining a servi= ce instruction identifier in a flat space which can contain the demux for t= he following technologies:=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Layer 2 VPN (L2VPN) [RFC6624].
   o  Layer 3 VPN (L3VPN) [RFC4364].
   o  Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) [RFC4761][RFC4762].
   o  Ethernet VPN (EVPN) [RFC7432].
   o  Pseudowires [RFC8077].

<=
span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small;white-space:normal">It also needs to be observed that putting=
 all of those services into single flat table lookup is not a sound design.=
=C2=A0


But what is most important that common hardware reads jus=
t entire header then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense =
to encode SR SIDs and related functions and their parameters in the same EH=
 rather then scatter them around.=C2=A0

Thank you,
R.














<= /div>


On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:51 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

Daniel,

=C2=A0

Not really. A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces= all of the following SIDs:

=C2=A0

  • END.DX2
  • END.DX2V
    • END.DX2U
  • END.DX2M
    • END.DT4
  • END.DX4
  • END.DT6
  • END.DX6
  • END.DT46
  • END.T

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

From: Bernier, Daniel <daniel.bernier@bell.ca> Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 2:26 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <<= a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net= >; xiechf@ch= inatelecom.cn; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

That was precisely my= point

=C2=A0<= /span>

Having been involved = in pushing SRv6 END behaviours in various targets, I can first hand say tha= t the primitives behind SRH processing is quite simple to extend. In your e= xtensibility model, every predefined or custom behavior becomes a new DOH. On SRH, the EH does not change I jus= t need to inform the data plane that when receiving a packet with a specifi= c SID in SRH, do this internal processing.

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

On = 2019-09-12, 12:34 PM, "Ron Bonica" <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:=

= =C2=A0

Mar= k,

=C2= =A0

I t= hink that you may have exposed yet another elephant in the room=E2=80=A6=E2= =80=A6

=C2= =A0

IPv= 6 defines a robust extensibility architecture, that includes multiple exten= sion headers. Initially, IPv6 adoption was slow and router vendors were not= highly motivated commit extension headers to ASICs. Also, in those days, ASICs were not so capable as they are today= .

=C2= =A0

Fro= m the above-mentioned data points, we should not infer that it is beyond th= e capability of a modern vendor to develop an ASIC that supports a more com= plete set of extension headers. Two things have changed. As IPv6 adoption progresses, vendors are becoming more commi= tted to IPv6. Beyond that, ASICs have become more capable over the decades.=

=C2= =A0

We = shouldn=E2=80=99t abandon the IPv6 extensibility architecture based on a cl= aim that ASICs cannot and will never be able to =C2=A0process multiple exte= nsion headers.

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

= From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:30 AM
To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <<= a href=3D"mailto:robert@raszuk.net" target=3D"_blank">robert@raszuk.net= >; xiechf@chinatel= ecom.cn; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2= =A0

It&= #39;s simple because IPv6 doesn't look past the fixed IPv6 header to pe= rform its forwarding, and matches on the Destination Address to determine i= f to perform deeper packet host processing.

=C2= =A0

=C2= =A0

You= 're building much more complicated forwarding services if you're go= ing to be marching on TLVs etc. past the IPv6 fixed header.

=C2= =A0

However vendors and carrier engineering groups like se= lling and deploying new gear, so I suppose that's ok. They don't ha= ve to operate it or fix it when it breaks.

On = Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 13:41 Bernier, Daniel, <daniel.bernier@bell.ca> wrote:<= u>

+1=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

The ability of using a single SRH to convey= behaviour information wether they are per-segment or per-path has proven t= o be very=C2=A0simple and quick=C2=A0to define in various data=C2=A0plane targets.=

=C2=A0

At first analysis,=C2=A0trying to replicate= with=C2=A0CRH + DOH variants, the logic required for service programs is m= ore com=E2=80=8Bplex.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

What happens if I need=C2=A0TLVs mid-point = in a path but not at its end (e.g. referring to the Ole's ACME analogy)= =C2=A0? Would they now be defined in a seg-end-opt or a vpn-dest-opt ? If seg-end-opt then it means non-interested midpoint devi= ces will have to lookup beyond the TLVs to get to CRH for next segment ?

=C2=A0

Similar question would be=C2=A0on how would= we implement proxy behaviours either dynamic or static ?=C2=A0If I read=C2= =A0https://tools.iet= f.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt-04 correctly, we then need NSH for richer service chains constructs (think Gi= -LAN). This means I need CRH, some variants of DOH + NSH=E2=80=8B.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I fail to see=C2=A0the=C2=A0simplicity ther= e.

=C2=A0

Dan B=

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of xiec= hf@chinatelecom.cn <xiechf@chinatelecom.cn>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:57 PM
To: List
Cc: Rob Shakir; 6man; Tarek Saad; Robert Raszuk
Subject: [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi,=C2=A0folks,<= /span>

Last=C2=A0year= =C2=A0China=C2=A0Telecom=C2=A0begun=C2=A0to=C2=A0implement=C2=A0SRv6=C2=A0t= rial=C2=A0in=C2=A0Sichun=C2=A0province=C2=A0for=C2=A0the=C2=A0bearing=C2=A0= and=C2=A0interconnection=C2=A0of=C2=A0video=C2=A0platforms=C2=A0which=C2=A0= are=C2=A0=C2=A0located=C2=A0in=C2=A0different=C2=A0cities,=C2=A0service=C2= =A0agilities,secure=C2=A0sepertion,=C2=A0traffic=C2=A0steering=C2=A0and=C2= =A0other=C2=A0features=C2=A0of=C2=A0SRv6=C2=A0have=C2=A0been=C2=A0demonstra= ted=C2=A0in=C2=A0this=C2=A0trial.=C2=A0Based=C2=A0on=C2=A0this,=C2=A0SRv6= =C2=A0will=C2=A0be=C2=A0implementated=C2=A0in=C2=A0larger-scale=C2=A0in=C2= =A0CT.

No=C2=A0technolo= gies=C2=A0is=C2=A0100%=C2=A0perfect,I=C2=A0agree=C2=A0that=C2=A0compression= =C2=A0mechanism=C2=A0is=C2=A0needed=C2=A0to=C2=A0reduce=C2=A0the=C2=A0the= =C2=A0overhead=C2=A0of=C2=A0long=C2=A0SID=C2=A0in=C2=A0the=C2=A0long=C2=A0t= erm,=C2=A0but=C2=A0it=C2=A0is=C2=A0better=C2=A0to=C2=A0be=C2=A0compatible= =C2=A0withe=C2=A0SRH,=C2=A0instead=C2=A0of=C2=A0designing=C2=A0a=C2=A0compl= ete=C2=A0new=C2=A0one.=C2=A0CRH=C2=A0is=C2=A0a=C2=A0complete=C2=A0new=C2=A0= design,=C2=A0it=C2=A0move=C2=A0the=C2=A0complexities=C2=A0from=C2=A0SRH=C2= =A0to=C2=A0DOH.=C2=A0

Moreover,=C2=A0I= =C2=A0hope=C2=A0more=C2=A0efforts=C2=A0of=C2=A0SRv6=C2=A0should=C2=A0be=C2= =A0given=C2=A0on=C2=A0how=C2=A0to=C2=A0support=C2=A0new=C2=A0services,for= =C2=A0instance,=C2=A0Application-aware=C2=A0network (APN). Meanwhile,=C2=A0= we=C2=A0should=C2=A0consider more on how=C2=A0to=C2=A0implmement=C2=A0smooth=C2=A0transition=C2=A0and= =C2=A0protect=C2=A0the=C2=A0network=C2=A0assetof=C2=A0carriers.

=C2=A0

Best=C2=A0regard= s

Chongfeng=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:=C2=A0Dir= k Steinberg

Date:=C2=A02019-09-09=C2=A021:31<= /span>

To:=C2=A0Gya= n Mishra

Subject:=C2=A0Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

There seems to b= e some confusion regarding TI-LFA.

A couple of comm= ents:

=C2=A0

- Remote LFA tun= nel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which=C2=A0

=C2=A0 only oper= ates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair).

=C2=A0

- Any encapsulat= ion on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing=C2=A0

=C2=A0 to do wit= h TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE

=C2=A0 itself is= the PLR.

=C2=A0

- TI-LFA is not = an IGP extension and does not require one.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 It is a p= urely local computation based on IGP topology.<= u>

=C2=A0

- The PLR for TI= -LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID<= u>

=C2=A0 list to s= teer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case

=C2=A0 no SIDs a= re needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR=C2=A0

=C2=A0 will push= the required number of labels in the MPLS case.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 For SRv6,= the equivalent operation to the label push is to=C2=A0

=C2=A0 insert an= EH with the required SID list. The packet will already=C2=A0

=C2=A0 have been= encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most=C2=A0

=C2=A0 common In= ternet or VPN base use case it will not even have=C2=A0

=C2=A0 an EH so = that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH..

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Alternati= vely, the PLR could also be configured to perform

=C2=A0 encapsula= tion with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID

=C2=A0 as IPv6 d= estination address, without needing any EH.<= /u>

=C2=A0 This will= work for the vast majority of cases.=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0 Remember = that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases

=C2=A0 equivalen= t to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an

=C2=A0 adjacency= SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Only in e= xtreme cases would the PLR need to add an=C2=A0=

=C2=A0 EH to the= new IPv6 header with more SIDs.<= /span>

=C2=A0

- EH insertion f= or TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains.

=C2=A0

Hope it helps.

=C2=A0

Cheers

Dirk

=C2=A0

Am 08.09.2019 um= 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>:

=C2=A0

>From reading through all the discussion threads the SR = insertion is two fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so end up requiring double EH insertions= on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 source node and then second scenari= o being a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermediate nodes.=C2=A0 I = have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing = an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path protection= that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH insertion needs to= occur for Ti-LFA.=C2=A0 Can someone clarify that use case for me.=C2=A0 Also the EH insertion on intermediate = node what is the use case or reason for that.=C2=A0 My guess is it=E2=80=99= s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together.=C2=A0 Please cla= rify..

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

___= ____________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri= ng

= =C2=A0

Juniper Business U= se Only

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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C70B412008C for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id l22so31185063qtp.10 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 13:30:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bJAffKNfghshbpVC9xO7VtNtCrWkNqA9XK5rwA8Zs3k=; b=Ba1cPxu91FmN6VIqqHn9YX9BeRv96f8NmCX+elQUYQt4uE4M8qahnEYMAK0MX05baU isaAnQj/edRIdGqkPufC54DElSEINPsLHeCf1uA0MfJzNKzFNZaG1GLY5ZXnPFfoMN3O MS27WHyflo+2Hfz3060Bpganm+ZNZxba/mt+ZoxpGga/UQ7vbivxa6NQWLm0YDycHu5a jOOL1ZBRkNcCbDpGAaa9hqHFzaUdnnw9jd+fijb1JkGRaQxBBNuc8jvKzH7FxaXnBpa2 x7jnCQYLVRRFt2IaszFFQzewymyb3xNsYT2qyWG+usep/OVyZ4vbHSEqJnWnmZKY/kE/ e8YA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bJAffKNfghshbpVC9xO7VtNtCrWkNqA9XK5rwA8Zs3k=; 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"xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dbbd8b0592610094" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 20:30:14 -0000 --000000000000dbbd8b0592610094 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron, Thank you for formally admitting that SRv6+ is just SR-MPLS over IPv6. As you recall I was proposing to use exactly SR-MPLS with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip to achieve all what you are cooking in the SRv6+ pot. The fact that you switched the lid of the pot does not change the taste nor consistency of the soup ! So nothing is wrong using SR-MPLS but no one needs to go through all proposed control plane and data plane development to accomplish to what has been shipping for a while. On the other hand SRv6 functions not only that they allow additional parameters to be embedded in functions they also allow to completely depart from keeping one global LFIB on the PEs towards more modern data plane lookup and forwarding structures. Many thx, R. On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 9:38 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > Think about how these things work in SR-MPLS. All of the =E2=80=9CEND.D > functions=E2=80=9D are encoded in an MPLS service label (20 bits) or a VN= I (24 > bits). We merely moved those bits into the 32 bit Option Data field of th= e > PPSI. > > > > If it is a good idea in SR-MPLS, why is it a bad idea in SRv6+? > > > > Ron > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 3:34 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; Mark Smith < > markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG < > spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; Tarek > Saad > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > I was trying to stop responding but its pretty hard when I see such post > like your last one ... > > > > > A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces all of the following SID > > > > Please understand that this is like stating that: > > > > "A single new additional airport replaces all the planes which operate to > the old airport. " > > > > At most you could say that single new PPSI could contain 2^32 SR function= s > which you call in your draft as "PPSI identifiers" From your documents > it also seems that you are defining a service instruction identifier in a > flat space which can contain the demux for the following technologies: > > > > o Layer 2 VPN (L2VPN) [RFC6624 > > ]. > > o Layer 3 VPN (L3VPN) [RFC4364 ]. > > o Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) [RFC4761 ][RFC4762]. > > o Ethernet VPN (EVPN) [RFC7432 ]. > > o Pseudowires [RFC8077 ]. > > > > It also needs to be observed that putting all of those services into sing= le flat table lookup is not a sound design. > > > > But what is most important that common hardware reads just entire header = then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense to encode SR SID= s and related functions and their parameters in the same EH rather then sca= tter them around. > > > > Thank you, > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:51 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > > Daniel, > > > > Not really. A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces all of the following > SIDs: > > > > - END.DX2 > - END.DX2V > - END.DX2U > - END.DX2M > - END.DT4 > - END.DX4 > - END.DT6 > - END.DX6 > - END.DT46 > - END.T > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Bernier, Daniel > *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 2:26 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica ; Mark Smith > > *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG ; 6man < > 6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn= ; > Tarek Saad > *Subject:* RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > That was precisely my point > > > > Having been involved in pushing SRv6 END behaviours in various targets, I > can first hand say that the primitives behind SRH processing is quite > simple to extend. In your extensibility model, every predefined or custom > behavior becomes a new DOH. On SRH, the EH does not change I just need to > inform the data plane that when receiving a packet with a specific SID in > SRH, do this internal processing. > > > > > > On 2019-09-12, 12:34 PM, "Ron Bonica" wrote: > > > > Mark, > > > > I think that you may have exposed yet another elephant in the room=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6 > > > > IPv6 defines a robust extensibility architecture, that includes multiple > extension headers. Initially, IPv6 adoption was slow and router vendors > were not highly motivated commit extension headers to ASICs. Also, in tho= se > days, ASICs were not so capable as they are today. > > > > From the above-mentioned data points, we should not infer that it is > beyond the capability of a modern vendor to develop an ASIC that supports= a > more complete set of extension headers. Two things have changed. As IPv6 > adoption progresses, vendors are becoming more committed to IPv6. Beyond > that, ASICs have become more capable over the decades. > > > > We shouldn=E2=80=99t abandon the IPv6 extensibility architecture based on= a claim > that ASICs cannot and will never be able to process multiple extension > headers. > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > *From:* ipv6 *On Behalf Of *Mark Smith > *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:30 AM > *To:* EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca > *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG ; 6man < > 6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn= ; > Tarek Saad > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > It's simple because IPv6 doesn't look past the fixed IPv6 header to > perform its forwarding, and matches on the Destination Address to determi= ne > if to perform deeper packet host processing. > > > > > > You're building much more complicated forwarding services if you're going > to be marching on TLVs etc. past the IPv6 fixed header. > > > > However vendors and carrier engineering groups like selling and deploying > new gear, so I suppose that's ok. They don't have to operate it or fix it > when it breaks. > > On Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 13:41 Bernier, Daniel, > wrote: > > +1 > > > > The ability of using a single SRH to convey behaviour information wether > they are per-segment or per-path has proven to be very simple and quick t= o > define in various data plane targets. > > > > At first analysis, trying to replicate with CRH + DOH variants, the logic > required for service programs is more com=E2=80=8Bplex. > > > > What happens if I need TLVs mid-point in a path but not at its end (e.g. > referring to the Ole's ACME analogy) ? Would they now be defined in a > seg-end-opt or a vpn-dest-opt ? If seg-end-opt then it means non-interest= ed > midpoint devices will have to lookup beyond the TLVs to get to CRH for ne= xt > segment ? > > > > Similar question would be on how would we implement proxy behaviours > either dynamic or static ? If I read > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt-04 > > correctly, we then need NSH for richer service chains constructs (think > Gi-LAN). This means I need CRH, some variants of DOH + NSH=E2=80=8B. > > > > I fail to see the simplicity there. > > > > Dan B > ------------------------------ > > *From:* spring on behalf of > xiechf@chinatelecom.cn > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:57 PM > *To:* List > *Cc:* Rob Shakir; 6man; Tarek Saad; Robert Raszuk > *Subject:* [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > > > > > Hi, folks, > > > Last year China Telecom begun to implement SRv6 trial in Sichun province = for the bearing and interconnection of video platforms which are located i= n different cities, service agilities,secure sepertion, traffic steering an= d other features of SRv6 have been demonstrated in this trial. Based on thi= s, SRv6 will be implementated in larger-scale in CT. > > > No technologies is 100% perfect,I agree that compression mechanism is nee= ded to reduce the the overhead of long SID in the long term, but it is bett= er to be compatible withe SRH, instead of designing a complete new one. CRH= is a complete new design, it move the complexities from SRH to DOH. > > Moreover, I hope more efforts of SRv6 should be given on how to support n= ew services,for instance, Application-aware network > (APN). Meanwhile, we should consider more on > how to implmement smooth transition and protect the network assetof carri= ers. > > > > Best regards > > Chongfeng > > > > > > *From:* Dirk Steinberg > > *Date:* 2019-09-09 21:31 > > *To:* Gyan Mishra > > *CC:* SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk > ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad > > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. > > There seems to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA. > > A couple of comments: > > > > - Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which > > only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair). > > > > - Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing > > to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE > > itself is the PLR. > > > > - TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one. > > It is a purely local computation based on IGP topology. > > > > - The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID > > list to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case > > no SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR > > will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case. > > > > For SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to > > insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already > > have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most > > common Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have > > an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH.. > > > > Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform > > encapsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID > > as IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH. > > This will work for the vast majority of cases. > > Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases > > equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an > > adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID. > > > > Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an > > EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs. > > > > - EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains. > > > > Hope it helps. > > > > Cheers > > Dirk > > > > Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra : > > > > >From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is two > fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel so > end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end > SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertions > occurrence on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts or > RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am > guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/path > protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH > insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that use case f= or > me. Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or > reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of stitch= ing SRv6 > domains together. Please clarify.. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > --000000000000dbbd8b0592610094 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,

Thank you for formally admitting t= hat SRv6+ is just SR-MPLS over IPv6. As you recall I was proposing to use e= xactly SR-MPLS with=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip to achieve all what you= are cooking in the SRv6+ pot.=C2=A0

The fact that= you switched the lid of the pot does not change the taste nor consistency = of the soup !=C2=A0

So nothing is wrong using SR-M= PLS but no one needs to go through all proposed control plane and data plan= e development to accomplish to what has been shipping for a while.=C2=A0

On the other hand SRv6 functions not only that they = allow additional parameters to be embedded in functions they also allow to = completely depart from keeping one global LFIB on the PEs towards more mode= rn data plane lookup and forwarding structures.=C2=A0

<= div>Many thx,
R.


On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 9:38= PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.n= et> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

Think about how these things work in SR-MPLS. All of= the =C2=A0=E2=80=9CEND.D functions=E2=80=9D are encoded in an MPLS service= label (20 bits) or a VNI (24 bits). We merely moved those bits into the 32= bit Option Data field of the PPSI.

=C2=A0

If it is a good idea in SR-MPLS, why is it a bad ide= a in SRv6+?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 3:34 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; Tarek Saad= <tsaad.net@gma= il.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

I was trying to stop responding but its pretty hard = when I see such post like your last one ...=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces all of= the following SID=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Please understand that this is like stating that:=

=C2=A0

"A single new additional airport replaces all t= he planes which operate to the old airport. "

=C2=A0

At most you could say that single new PPSI could con= tain 2^32 SR functions which you call in your draft as "PPSI identifiers"=C2=A0 From your documen= ts it also seems that you are defining a service instruction identifier in a flat space which can contain the demux for the= following technologies:=C2=A0

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Layer 2 VPN (L2VPN) [RFC6624].

=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=
=C2=A0 Layer 3 VPN (L3VPN) [RFC4364].
=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Virtual Private LAN S=
ervice (VPLS) [RFC4761=
][RFC4762].
=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Ethernet VPN (EVPN) [=
R=
FC7432].
=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 Pseudowires [RFC8077].=

=C2=A0<=
u>
It also needs to be observed that put=
ting all of those services into single flat table lookup is not a sound des=
ign.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
But what is most important that commo=
n hardware reads just entire header then starts processing. So it really ma=
kes much more sense to encode SR SIDs and related functions and their param=
eters in the same EH rather then scatter them around.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Thank you,
R.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0<=
u>
=C2=A0<=
u>
=C2=A0<=
u>
=C2=A0<=
u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:51 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net= > wrote:

Daniel,

=C2=A0

Not really. A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces= all of the following SIDs:

=C2=A0

  • END.DX2
  • END.DX2V
  • END.DX2U
  • END.DX2M
  • END.DT4
  • END.DX4
  • END.DT6
  • END.DX6
  • END.DT46
  • END.T

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

From: Bernier, Daniel <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 2:26 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@r= aszuk.net>; xiechf@chinatel= ecom.cn; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

That was precisely my= point

=C2=A0<= u>

Having been involved = in pushing SRv6 END behaviours in various targets, I can first hand say tha= t the primitives behind SRH processing is quite simple to extend. In your extensibility model, every predefined or custom behavio= r becomes a new DOH. On SRH, the EH does not change I just need to inform t= he data plane that when receiving a packet with a specific SID in SRH, do t= his internal processing.

=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0<= u>

On 2019-09-12, 12:34 PM, "Ron Bonica" <rbonica@juniper.net<= /a>> wrote:

=C2=A0

Mark,

=C2=A0

I think that you may have exposed yet another elephant= in the room=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

IPv6 defines a robust extensibility architecture, that= includes multiple extension headers. Initially, IPv6 adoption was slow and= router vendors were not highly motivated commit extension headers to ASICs= . Also, in those days, ASICs were not so capable as they are today.

=C2=A0

From the above-mentioned data points, we should not in= fer that it is beyond the capability of a modern vendor to develop an ASIC = that supports a more complete set of extension headers. Two things have cha= nged. As IPv6 adoption progresses, vendors are becoming more committed to IPv6. Beyond that, ASICs have becom= e more capable over the decades.

=C2=A0

We shouldn=E2=80=99t abandon the IPv6 extensibility ar= chitecture based on a claim that ASICs cannot and will never be able to =C2= =A0process multiple extension headers.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.or= g> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:30 AM
To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@r= aszuk.net>; xiechf@chinatel= ecom.cn; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

It's simple because IPv6 doesn't look past the= fixed IPv6 header to perform its forwarding, and matches on the Destinatio= n Address to determine if to perform deeper packet host processing.<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

You're building much more complicated forwarding s= ervices if you're going to be marching on TLVs etc. past the IPv6 fixed= header.

=C2=A0

However vendors and carrier engineering groups like se= lling and deploying new gear, so I suppose that's ok. They don't ha= ve to operate it or fix it when it breaks.

On Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 13:41 Bernier, Daniel, <daniel.bernier@bell.c= a> wrote:

+1=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The ability of using a single SRH to convey= behaviour information wether they are per-segment or per-path has proven t= o be very=C2=A0simple and quick=C2=A0to define in various data=C2=A0plane targets.

=C2=A0

At first analysis,=C2=A0trying to replicate= with=C2=A0CRH + DOH variants, the logic required for service programs is m= ore com=E2=80=8Bplex.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

What happens if I need=C2=A0TLVs mid-point = in a path but not at its end (e.g. referring to the Ole's ACME analogy)= =C2=A0? Would they now be defined in a seg-end-opt or a vpn-dest-opt ? If seg-end-opt then it means non-interested midpoint devi= ces will have to lookup beyond the TLVs to get to CRH for next segment ?

=C2=A0

Similar question would be=C2=A0on how would= we implement proxy behaviours either dynamic or static ?=C2=A0If I read=C2= =A0https://tools.iet= f.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt-04 correctly, we then need NSH for richer service chains constructs (think Gi= -LAN). This means I need CRH, some variants of DOH + NSH=E2=80=8B.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I fail to see=C2=A0the=C2=A0simplicity ther= e.

=C2=A0

Dan B

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of xiechf@chinatel= ecom.cn <xiechf@chinatelecom.cn>
Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:57 PM
To: List
Cc: Rob Shakir; 6man; Tarek Saad; Robert Raszuk
Subject: [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi,=C2=A0= folks,

Last=C2= =A0year=C2=A0China=C2=A0Telecom=C2=A0begun=C2=A0to=C2=A0implement=C2=A0SRv6= =C2=A0trial=C2=A0in=C2=A0Sichun=C2=A0province=C2=A0for=C2=A0the=C2=A0bearin= g=C2=A0and=C2=A0interconnection=C2=A0of=C2=A0video=C2=A0platforms=C2=A0whic= h=C2=A0are=C2=A0=C2=A0located=C2=A0in=C2=A0different=C2=A0cities,=C2=A0serv= ice=C2=A0agilities,secure=C2=A0sepertion,=C2=A0traffic=C2=A0steering=C2=A0a= nd=C2=A0other=C2=A0features=C2=A0of=C2=A0SRv6=C2=A0have=C2=A0been=C2=A0demo= nstrated=C2=A0in=C2=A0this=C2=A0trial.=C2=A0Based=C2=A0on=C2=A0this,=C2=A0S= Rv6=C2=A0will=C2=A0be=C2=A0implementated=C2=A0in=C2=A0larger-scale=C2=A0in= =C2=A0CT.

No=C2=A0t= echnologies=C2=A0is=C2=A0100%=C2=A0perfect,I=C2=A0agree=C2=A0that=C2=A0comp= ression=C2=A0mechanism=C2=A0is=C2=A0needed=C2=A0to=C2=A0reduce=C2=A0the=C2= =A0the=C2=A0overhead=C2=A0of=C2=A0long=C2=A0SID=C2=A0in=C2=A0the=C2=A0long= =C2=A0term,=C2=A0but=C2=A0it=C2=A0is=C2=A0better=C2=A0to=C2=A0be=C2=A0compa= tible=C2=A0withe=C2=A0SRH,=C2=A0instead=C2=A0of=C2=A0designing=C2=A0a=C2=A0= complete=C2=A0new=C2=A0one.=C2=A0CRH=C2=A0is=C2=A0a=C2=A0complete=C2=A0new= =C2=A0design,=C2=A0it=C2=A0move=C2=A0the=C2=A0complexities=C2=A0from=C2=A0S= RH=C2=A0to=C2=A0DOH.=C2=A0

Moreover,= =C2=A0I=C2=A0hope=C2=A0more=C2=A0efforts=C2=A0of=C2=A0SRv6=C2=A0should=C2= =A0be=C2=A0given=C2=A0on=C2=A0how=C2=A0to=C2=A0support=C2=A0new=C2=A0servic= es,for=C2=A0instance,=C2=A0Application-aware=C2=A0network (APN). Meanwhile,= =C2=A0we=C2=A0should=C2=A0consider more on how=C2=A0to=C2=A0implmement=C2= =A0smooth=C2=A0transition=C2=A0and=C2=A0protect=C2=A0the=C2=A0network=C2=A0= assetof=C2=A0carriers.

=C2=A0

Best=C2= =A0regards

Chongfeng=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From:=C2=A0Dirk Steinberg

Date:=C2=A02019-09-09=C2=A021:31

To:=C2=A0Gyan Mishra

Subject:=C2=A0Re: [spring] Beyond SRv= 6.

There see= ms to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA.

A couple = of comments:

=C2=A0

- Remote = LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which=C2=A0

=C2=A0 on= ly operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair).<= /u>

=C2=A0

- Any enc= apsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing=C2=A0=

=C2=A0 to= do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE<= /u>

=C2=A0 it= self is the PLR.

=C2=A0

- TI-LFA = is not an IGP extension and does not require one.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 It= is a purely local computation based on IGP topology.<= /p>

=C2=A0

- The PLR= for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID<= /p>

=C2=A0 li= st to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case<= /u>

=C2=A0 no= SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR=C2=A0

=C2=A0 wi= ll push the required number of labels in the MPLS case.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Fo= r SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to=C2=A0

=C2=A0 in= sert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already=C2=A0=

=C2=A0 ha= ve been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0 co= mmon Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have=C2=A0

=C2=A0 an= EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH..

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Al= ternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform

=C2=A0 en= capsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID

=C2=A0 as= IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH.

=C2=A0 Th= is will work for the vast majority of cases.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Re= member that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases

=C2=A0 eq= uivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an

=C2=A0 ad= jacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 On= ly in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an=C2=A0=

=C2=A0 EH= to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs.

=C2=A0

- EH inse= rtion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domains.

=C2=A0

Hope it h= elps.

=C2=A0

Cheers

Dirk

=C2=A0

Am 08.09.= 2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>:

=C2=A0

>From reading through all the discussion threads = the SR insertion is two fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or= remote LFA tunnel so end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head end SRv6 source node and then = second scenario being a possible EH insertions occurrence on intermediate n= odes.=C2=A0 I have not read through the drafts or RFC regarding Ti-LFA with= SR but since that is an IGP extension I am guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/= path protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH ins= ertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA.=C2=A0 Can someone clarify that use case f= or me.=C2=A0 Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case or reason for that.=C2=A0 My guess is it=E2=80= =99s for special use case of stitching SRv6 domains together.=C2=A0 Please = clarify..

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri= ng

=C2=A0

Juniper Business U= se Only

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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 22:07:55 -0000 --_000_39AD449B035643F1879EBC360A630BA9junipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Um9iZXJ0LA0KDQpBdCB0aGUgcmlzayBvZiBzb3VuZGluZyBsaWtlIExld2lzIENhcnJvbC4uLi4u DQoNCkkgc2FpZCB0aGF0IFNSdjYrIHNoYXJlcyBhbiBhdHRyaWJ1dGUgd2l0aCBTUi1NUExTLiBZ b3Ugc2FpZCB0aGF0LCB0aGVyZWZvcmUsIFNSdjYrIGlzIGp1c3QgU1ItTVBMUyBvdmVyIElQdjYu DQoNClRoZSBzZWNvbmQgc3RhdGVtZW50IGlzIG5vdCBhIGxvZ2ljYWwgY29uc2VxdWVuY2Ugb2Yg dGhlIGZpcnN0LCBiZWNhdXNlIFNSdjYrIGFsc28gc2hhcmVzIHNvbWUgYXR0cmlidXRlcyB3aXRo IFNSdjYgdGhhdCBjYW5ub3QgYmUgZm91bmQgaW4gU1ItTVBMUy4NCg0KSW4gcmVhbGl0eSwgU1J2 NisgbWVyZ2VzIHRoZSBiZXN0IGF0dHJpYnV0ZXMgb2YgYm90aC4NCg0KUmV0dXJuaW5nIHRvIExl d2lzIENhcnJvbCwgc2F5aW5nIHRoYXQgbXkgY2hpbGRyZW4gY2FuIHN3aW0gbGlrZSBmaXNoIGRv 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[111.69.206.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q204sm28870266pfq.176.2019.09.12.15.32.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 12 Sep 2019 15:32:27 -0700 (PDT) To: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica Cc: "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad References: <5B57874F-8C54-4E82-BB55-A2B6585B6AE6@bell.ca> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <704dbd1e-b1e6-0924-42b1-6bf19fa785fe@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 10:32:24 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 22:32:32 -0000 Robert, > But what is most important that common hardware reads just entire > header then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense to > encode SR SIDs and related functions and their parameters in the same > EH rather then scatter them around. Sorry to get all philosophical, but it seems to me that there's another elephant in the room here (and he's been around for twenty years or so). There seems to be an assumption that we should design on the assumption that fast path processing is done by ASICs or FPGAs, so header formats should be rigid enough that conditional or linked-list processing can be largely avoided. I've been lectured on the bad design of IPv6 extensio= n headers in a way that only makes sense from an ASIC or FPGA viewpoint. But anybody who's building the fast path using a network processor doesn'= t have that constraint and can use the existing extension header design happily enough. To what extent is this behind the present argument? Regards Brian Carpenter On 13-Sep-19 07:33, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Dear Ron, >=20 > I was trying to stop responding but its pretty hard when I see such pos= t > like your last one ... >=20 >> A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces all of the following SID >=20 > Please understand that this is like stating that: >=20 > "A single new additional airport replaces all the planes which operate = to > the old airport. " >=20 > At most you could say that single new PPSI could contain 2^32 SR functi= ons > which you call in your draft as "PPSI identifiers" From your documents= it > also seems that you are defining a service instruction identifier in a = flat > space which can contain the demux for the following technologies: >=20 > o Layer 2 VPN (L2VPN) [RFC6624 > ]. >=20 > o Layer 3 VPN (L3VPN) [RFC4364 ]. > o Virtual Private LAN Service (VPLS) [RFC4761 > ][RFC4762]. > o Ethernet VPN (EVPN) [RFC7432 ]. > o Pseudowires [RFC8077 ]. >=20 >=20 > It also needs to be observed that putting all of those services into > single flat table lookup is not a sound design. >=20 > But what is most important that common hardware reads just entire > header then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense to > encode SR SIDs and related functions and their parameters in the same > EH rather then scatter them around. >=20 >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > R. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 8:51 PM Ron Bonica wrote:= >=20 >> Daniel, >> >> >> >> Not really. A single IPv6 Option, the PPSI, replaces all of the follow= ing >> SIDs: >> >> >> >> - END.DX2 >> - END.DX2V >> - END.DX2U >> - END.DX2M >> - END.DT4 >> - END.DX4 >> - END.DT6 >> - END.DX6 >> - END.DT46 >> - END.T >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> *From:* Bernier, Daniel >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 2:26 PM >> *To:* Ron Bonica ; Mark Smith >> >> *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG ; 6man= < >> 6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; xiechf@chinatelecom= =2Ecn; >> Tarek Saad >> *Subject:* RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6. >> >> >> >> That was precisely my point >> >> >> >> Having been involved in pushing SRv6 END behaviours in various targets= , I >> can first hand say that the primitives behind SRH processing is quite >> simple to extend. In your extensibility model, every predefined or cus= tom >> behavior becomes a new DOH. On SRH, the EH does not change I just need= to >> inform the data plane that when receiving a packet with a specific SID= in >> SRH, do this internal processing. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 2019-09-12, 12:34 PM, "Ron Bonica" wrote: >> >> >> >> Mark, >> >> >> >> I think that you may have exposed yet another elephant in the room=E2=80= =A6=E2=80=A6 >> >> >> >> IPv6 defines a robust extensibility architecture, that includes multip= le >> extension headers. Initially, IPv6 adoption was slow and router vendor= s >> were not highly motivated commit extension headers to ASICs. Also, in = those >> days, ASICs were not so capable as they are today. >> >> >> >> From the above-mentioned data points, we should not infer that it is >> beyond the capability of a modern vendor to develop an ASIC that suppo= rts a >> more complete set of extension headers. Two things have changed. As IP= v6 >> adoption progresses, vendors are becoming more committed to IPv6. Beyo= nd >> that, ASICs have become more capable over the decades. >> >> >> >> We shouldn=E2=80=99t abandon the IPv6 extensibility architecture based= on a claim >> that ASICs cannot and will never be able to process multiple extensio= n >> headers. >> >> >> >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* ipv6 *On Behalf Of *Mark Smith >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 12, 2019 1:30 AM >> *To:* EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >> *Cc:* Rob Shakir ; SPRING WG ; 6man= < >> 6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; xiechf@chinatelecom= =2Ecn; >> Tarek Saad >> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. >> >> >> >> It's simple because IPv6 doesn't look past the fixed IPv6 header to >> perform its forwarding, and matches on the Destination Address to dete= rmine >> if to perform deeper packet host processing. >> >> >> >> >> >> You're building much more complicated forwarding services if you're go= ing >> to be marching on TLVs etc. past the IPv6 fixed header. >> >> >> >> However vendors and carrier engineering groups like selling and deploy= ing >> new gear, so I suppose that's ok. They don't have to operate it or fix= it >> when it breaks. >> >> On Thu, 12 Sep 2019, 13:41 Bernier, Daniel, >> wrote: >> >> +1 >> >> >> >> The ability of using a single SRH to convey behaviour information weth= er >> they are per-segment or per-path has proven to be very simple and quic= k to >> define in various data plane targets. >> >> >> >> At first analysis, trying to replicate with CRH + DOH variants, the lo= gic >> required for service programs is more com=E2=80=8Bplex. >> >> >> >> What happens if I need TLVs mid-point in a path but not at its end (e.= g. >> referring to the Ole's ACME analogy) ? Would they now be defined in a >> seg-end-opt or a vpn-dest-opt ? If seg-end-opt then it means non-inter= ested >> midpoint devices will have to lookup beyond the TLVs to get to CRH for= next >> segment ? >> >> >> >> Similar question would be on how would we implement proxy behaviours >> either dynamic or static ? If I read >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt-04 >> >> correctly, we then need NSH for richer service chains constructs (thin= k >> Gi-LAN). This means I need CRH, some variants of DOH + NSH=E2=80=8B. >> >> >> >> I fail to see the simplicity there. >> >> >> >> Dan B >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* spring on behalf of >> xiechf@chinatelecom.cn >> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2019 8:57 PM >> *To:* List >> *Cc:* Rob Shakir; 6man; Tarek Saad; Robert Raszuk >> *Subject:* [EXT]Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi, folks, >> >> >> Last year China Telecom begun to implement SRv6 trial in Sichun provin= ce for the bearing and interconnection of video platforms which are loca= ted in different cities, service agilities,secure sepertion, traffic stee= ring and other features of SRv6 have been demonstrated in this trial. Bas= ed on this, SRv6 will be implementated in larger-scale in CT. >> >> >> No technologies is 100% perfect,I agree that compression mechanism is = needed to reduce the the overhead of long SID in the long term, but it is= better to be compatible withe SRH, instead of designing a complete new o= ne. CRH is a complete new design, it move the complexities from SRH to DO= H. >> >> Moreover, I hope more efforts of SRv6 should be given on how to suppor= t new services,for instance, Application-aware network >> (APN). Meanwhile, we should consider more on >> how to implmement smooth transition and protect the network assetof ca= rriers. >> >> >> >> Best regards >> >> Chongfeng >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Dirk Steinberg >> >> *Date:* 2019-09-09 21:31 >> >> *To:* Gyan Mishra >> >> *CC:* SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.org; Robert Raszuk >> ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad >> >> >> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. >> >> There seems to be some confusion regarding TI-LFA. >> >> A couple of comments: >> >> >> >> - Remote LFA tunnel is not used with SR, only TI-LFA which >> >> only operates on the node that is the PLR (point of local repair). >> >> >> >> - Any encapsulation on the ingress PE with or without EH has nothing >> >> to do with TI-LFA except for the special case where the ingress PE >> >> itself is the PLR. >> >> >> >> - TI-LFA is not an IGP extension and does not require one. >> >> It is a purely local computation based on IGP topology. >> >> >> >> - The PLR for TI-LFA may need to insert some SIDs into the SID >> >> list to steer the packet around the failure. For the LFA base case >> >> no SIDs are needed at all. If SID insertion is needed, the PLR >> >> will push the required number of labels in the MPLS case. >> >> >> >> For SRv6, the equivalent operation to the label push is to >> >> insert an EH with the required SID list. The packet will already >> >> have been encapsulated on the ingress PE and in the most >> >> common Internet or VPN base use case it will not even have >> >> an EH so that this EH insertion will result only in a single EH.. >> >> >> >> Alternatively, the PLR could also be configured to perform >> >> encapsulation with a new IPv6 header using the repair SID >> >> as IPv6 destination address, without needing any EH. >> >> This will work for the vast majority of cases. >> >> Remember that one 128-bit SID in SRv6 is in most cases >> >> equivalent to 2 MPLS labels, i.e. a node label plus an >> >> adjacency SID can be encoded in a single SRv6 SID. >> >> >> >> Only in extreme cases would the PLR need to add an >> >> EH to the new IPv6 header with more SIDs. >> >> >> >> - EH insertion for TI-LFA has nothing to do with stitching SRv6 domain= s. >> >> >> >> Hope it helps. >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Dirk >> >> >> >> Am 08.09.2019 um 09:19 schrieb Gyan Mishra : >> >> >> >> >From reading through all the discussion threads the SR insertion is t= wo >> fold one being for FRR capabilities using Ti-LFA or remote LFA tunnel = so >> end up requiring double EH insertions on the Ingress PE tunnel head en= d >> SRv6 source node and then second scenario being a possible EH insertio= ns >> occurrence on intermediate nodes. I have not read through the drafts = or >> RFC regarding Ti-LFA with SR but since that is an IGP extension I am >> guessing an opaque LSA and is not the traditional MPLS FRR link/node/p= ath >> protection that adds an additional mpls shim so not sure why an EH >> insertion needs to occur for Ti-LFA. Can someone clarify that use cas= e for >> me. Also the EH insertion on intermediate node what is the use case o= r >> reason for that. My guess is it=E2=80=99s for special use case of sti= tching SRv6 >> domains together. Please clarify.. >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 12 16:15:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DB61200A4 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 16:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lKQ4Xg9sJsyX for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 16:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com (mail-qk1-x72c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F040120058 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 16:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id f13so26252640qkm.9 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 16:15:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1Cfu90XQSXxMZ02G5u88A7bSF6qdvHdClyg1XCBeg9c=; b=D7qDhRcSxiNR9IjdS0U9x59Yrn8i3eJcfrRu/ohvTCaV8iojfMtgEvyDmgA9TiH1mE UtjlzMuwzFo2W9Y27o/blROdQ7lRghrRa7X9Z7gEQhpuBOwMl2g96nXhs4XFMej4HLKD 8Rbi/d6ng+W/n19kD31uRQfGm1Hy9JOcUmqHKf7tNWS9auNxOYx6309eYTHC5nrn//Te EvLYCtRq8EM3WUMuH9Ou4VNk3K9FYMsgh4Ux0hoOtHVYJTK3mqZvR8KUumYZR9BuAY5A HJUY3JWpl5tzBHht3DbFg3uG1JT4l3J45T5kHJPdrxghgfgzfCvYIJxeUF3pDA0y7eDE QT+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1Cfu90XQSXxMZ02G5u88A7bSF6qdvHdClyg1XCBeg9c=; b=dKgpyVZRYnO6edxVgL65/qsdJ3Z4M5IDbFUjoqvDU2UVOZAZplucp+4jCSqQhvS0Be 1fGBsTR8xbgZNvYOy/PFVfbbaGw5ri+9EeQl1ySZYMCHWdkebmJY1dGugrwV83yQDHdg CAgf+jY/ZnTzWQfA+gGQrfTRTvbv0Tw2nJbzmIcc8C98zs588ROwxJ49mMHIyCklh4S6 F+ANQXjj2irjKkW1l5n+LcAHCEOOBedylMWF6y+oaN2O5/dgoQHvE8IHufIrO348CUGB HWpKOH95+Jp2c/Ws4zepxqpiR+1/ug+/QbtTdMLIN0L9HIlhDSNKNP66XlB3e9ho9YWs 1umA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXMfy99B8B2v6QxSUQL9oGnLWAD0tGJdqldU+o2fm/xEqyCU+dd 5dSdNdbendgHrEeUjBkzrvtZXDc8CfJqiZO/V9xkbg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxCtpGTeXOwpjiI3i5DhBPsb9S4YLtXE6tbVAM/0uA6/7GgQCq08OZBoUJ+cuh+MNVCAlbtD6TzNPzd0pFuDt4= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6144:: with SMTP id v65mr42516201qkb.465.1568330122294; Thu, 12 Sep 2019 16:15:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5B57874F-8C54-4E82-BB55-A2B6585B6AE6@bell.ca> <704dbd1e-b1e6-0924-42b1-6bf19fa785fe@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <704dbd1e-b1e6-0924-42b1-6bf19fa785fe@gmail.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 01:15:12 +0200 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Ron Bonica , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d48aa80592634f0b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 23:15:26 -0000 --000000000000d48aa80592634f0b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Brian, > To what extent is this behind the present argument? If you are calling elephant and ASIC/FPGA - that was not my reasoning at all. Regardless if you are processing packets by a fixed burned ASIC or programmable NP the packet must be read into DRAM and its header stored in SRAM during processing - that is I hope pretty clear to everyone. What matters is the amount of SRAM you have at your disposal and then how far apart are elements required for processing a given feature. I am full supporter of NPs and actually just fyi in my MS thesis I designed and prototyped Altera MAX FPGA based router :). If one can afford for required line rate speed rating and total box throughput using NP based systems is much better investment. This is more for flexibility (field programmability) and software updates for bug fixes and new features then anything to do how we should or should not design the packet headers in data plane protocols. In the comment below I was not really making an observation that when you separate multiple DOHs from CRH you can not process things - you sure can as all such EHs actually carry opaque to each other elements. I was however observing the fact that functions may require parameters which are not supported by DOHs as well as observed earlier that if you are to make sure packets entering your domain or leaving "escaping" your domain contain any unexpected headers it is much easier to set such ACL onces instead of keep updating it every time new draft gets published and new type gets allocated for another SRv6+ Destination Option. Many thx, Robert On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:32 AM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Robert, > > > But what is most important that common hardware reads just entire > > header then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense to > > encode SR SIDs and related functions and their parameters in the same > > EH rather then scatter them around. > > Sorry to get all philosophical, but it seems to me that there's another > elephant in the room here (and he's been around for twenty years or so). > There seems to be an assumption that we should design on the assumption > that fast path processing is done by ASICs or FPGAs, so header formats > should be rigid enough that conditional or linked-list processing can > be largely avoided. I've been lectured on the bad design of IPv6 extension > headers in a way that only makes sense from an ASIC or FPGA viewpoint. > > But anybody who's building the fast path using a network processor doesn't > have that constraint and can use the existing extension header design > happily enough. > > To what extent is this behind the present argument? > > Regards > Brian Carpenter --000000000000d48aa80592634f0b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Brian,

> To what= extent is this behind the present argument?=C2=A0=C2=A0

=
If you are calling elephant and ASIC/FPGA - that was not my reas= oning at all.=C2=A0

Regardless if you are processi= ng packets by a fixed burned ASIC or programmable NP the packet must be rea= d into DRAM and its header stored in SRAM during processing - that is I hop= e pretty clear to everyone. What matters is the amount of SRAM you have at = your disposal and then how far apart are elements required for processing a= given feature.=C2=A0

I am full supporter of NPs a= nd actually just fyi in my MS thesis I designed and prototyped Altera MAX F= PGA based router :).=C2=A0 If one can afford for required line rate speed r= ating and total box throughput using NP based systems is much better invest= ment.=C2=A0This is more for flexibility (field programmability) and softwar= e updates for bug fixes and new features then anything to do how we should = or should not design the packet headers in data plane protocols.=C2=A0

In the comment below I was not really making an observ= ation that when you separate multiple DOHs from CRH you can not process thi= ngs - you sure can as all such EHs actually carry opaque to each=C2=A0other= elements. I was however observing the fact that functions may require para= meters which are not supported by DOHs as well as observed earlier that if = you are to make sure packets entering your domain or leaving "escaping= " your domain contain any unexpected headers it is much easier to set = such ACL onces instead of keep updating it every time new draft gets publis= hed and new type gets allocated for another SRv6+ Destination Option.=C2=A0=

Many thx,
Robert


On= Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:32 AM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
Robert,

> But what is most important that common hardware reads just entire
> header then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense to > encode SR SIDs and related functions and their parameters in the same<= br> > EH rather then scatter them around.

Sorry to get all philosophical, but it seems to me that there's another=
elephant in the room here (and he's been around for twenty years or so)= .
There seems to be an assumption that we should design on the assumption
that fast path processing is done by ASICs or FPGAs, so header formats
should be rigid enough that conditional or linked-list processing can
be largely avoided. I've been lectured on the bad design of IPv6 extens= ion
headers in a way that only makes sense from an ASIC or FPGA viewpoint.

But anybody who's building the fast path using a network processor does= n't
have that constraint and can use the existing extension header design
happily enough.

To what extent is this behind the present argument?

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter
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<5B57874F-8C54-4E82-BB55-A2B6585B6AE6@bell.ca> <704dbd1e-b1e6-0924-42b1-6bf19fa785fe@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 19:59:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005065ec05926671d9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 02:59:33 -0000 --0000000000005065ec05926671d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 4:15 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi Brian, > > > To what extent is this behind the present argument? > > If you are calling elephant and ASIC/FPGA - that was not my reasoning at > all. > > Regardless if you are processing packets by a fixed burned ASIC or > programmable NP the packet must be read into DRAM and its header stored in > SRAM during processing - that is I hope pretty clear to everyone. What > matters is the amount of SRAM you have at your disposal and then how far > apart are elements required for processing a given feature. > Robert, Right, but isn't that precisely one of the arguments that 16 byte SIDs are a problem? For instance, if my parsing buffer is 128 bytes then that allows an SRH with at most four or maybe five SIDs if I'm not mistaken. It seems like the smaller SID size of SRV6+, even with the DOH PSSI, option still would produce smaller a header chain than SRV6 and thereby allow more segments in the header. Tom > I am full supporter of NPs and actually just fyi in my MS thesis I > designed and prototyped Altera MAX FPGA based router :). If one can afford > for required line rate speed rating and total box throughput using NP based > systems is much better investment. This is more for flexibility (field > programmability) and software updates for bug fixes and new features then > anything to do how we should or should not design the packet headers in > data plane protocols. > > In the comment below I was not really making an observation that when you > separate multiple DOHs from CRH you can not process things - you sure can > as all such EHs actually carry opaque to each other elements. I was however > observing the fact that functions may require parameters which are not > supported by DOHs as well as observed earlier that if you are to make sure > packets entering your domain or leaving "escaping" your domain contain any > unexpected headers it is much easier to set such ACL onces instead of keep > updating it every time new draft gets published and new type gets allocated > for another SRv6+ Destination Option. > > Many thx, > Robert > > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:32 AM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Robert, >> >> > But what is most important that common hardware reads just entire >> > header then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense to >> > encode SR SIDs and related functions and their parameters in the same >> > EH rather then scatter them around. >> >> Sorry to get all philosophical, but it seems to me that there's another >> elephant in the room here (and he's been around for twenty years or so).. >> There seems to be an assumption that we should design on the assumption >> that fast path processing is done by ASICs or FPGAs, so header formats >> should be rigid enough that conditional or linked-list processing can >> be largely avoided. I've been lectured on the bad design of IPv6 extension >> headers in a way that only makes sense from an ASIC or FPGA viewpoint. >> >> But anybody who's building the fast path using a network processor doesn't >> have that constraint and can use the existing extension header design >> happily enough. >> >> To what extent is this behind the present argument? >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000005065ec05926671d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 4:15 PM Robert = Raszuk <robert@ra= szuk.net> wrote:
Hi Brian,

> To what extent is = this behind the present argument?=C2=A0=C2=A0

= If you are calling elephant and ASIC/FPGA - that was not my reasoning at al= l.=C2=A0

Regardless if you are processing packets = by a fixed burned ASIC or programmable NP the packet must be read into DRAM= and its header stored in SRAM during processing - that is I hope pretty cl= ear to everyone. What matters is the amount of SRAM you have at your dispos= al and then how far apart are elements required for processing a given feat= ure.=C2=A0

Robert,

Right, = but isn't that precisely one of the arguments that 16 byte SIDs are a p= roblem? For instance, if my parsing buffer is 128 bytes then that allows an= SRH with at most four or maybe five SIDs if I'm not mistaken. It seems= like the smaller SID size of SRV6+, even with the DOH PSSI, option still w= ould produce smaller a header chain than SRV6 and thereby allow more segmen= ts in the header.

Tom

<= /div>

I am full suppo= rter of NPs and actually just fyi in my MS thesis I designed and prototyped= Altera MAX FPGA based router :).=C2=A0 If one can afford for required line= rate speed rating and total box throughput using NP based systems is much = better investment.=C2=A0This is more for flexibility (field programmability= ) and software updates for bug fixes and new features then anything to do h= ow we should or should not design the packet headers in data plane protocol= s.=C2=A0

In the comment below I was not really mak= ing an observation that when you separate multiple DOHs from CRH you can no= t process things - you sure can as all such EHs actually carry opaque to ea= ch=C2=A0other elements. I was however observing the fact that functions may= require parameters which are not supported by DOHs as well as observed ear= lier that if you are to make sure packets entering your domain or leaving &= quot;escaping" your domain contain any unexpected headers it is much e= asier to set such ACL onces instead of keep updating it every time new draf= t gets published and new type gets allocated for another SRv6+ Destination = Option.=C2=A0

Many thx,
Robert


On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:32 AM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
Robert,

> But what is most important that common hardware reads just entire
> header then starts processing. So it really makes much more sense to > encode SR SIDs and related functions and their parameters in the same<= br> > EH rather then scatter them around.

Sorry to get all philosophical, but it seems to me that there's another=
elephant in the room here (and he's been around for twenty years or so)= ..
There seems to be an assumption that we should design on the assumption
that fast path processing is done by ASICs or FPGAs, so header formats
should be rigid enough that conditional or linked-list processing can
be largely avoided. I've been lectured on the bad design of IPv6 extens= ion
headers in a way that only makes sense from an ASIC or FPGA viewpoint.

But anybody who's building the fast path using a network processor does= n't
have that constraint and can use the existing extension header design
happily enough.

To what extent is this behind the present argument?

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian Carpenter
--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@= ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--0000000000005065ec05926671d9-- From nobody Fri Sep 13 02:33:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8598D12006A for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 02:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wgFDamNijhnD for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 02:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x735.google.com (mail-qk1-x735.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::735]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA14812006B for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 02:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x735.google.com with SMTP id x134so27472326qkb.0 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 02:33:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=l1eWEvF5IRKzHhNgOeb4zjvfYdwhO4/9E+CE4pi8hZo=; b=TK8TDQvZPhXFBhJiCXkp129X2cs0PjFAdN1jGVgqhsZ6laTgqZPZkTdoU00Gk4GLWi t7tkSUXbp+gs77CIVXa3qK9AyaKi8LLsyMj3GkY3vugjSStUoONzxAnQE1JzhNdDG8r0 oRHWL2qlBbSvwEBrobI2FoHLlzD8Gy/yjvL/KvJWZDmJ7qw8Ga8pZXjVQoABByHro1/v kXNAbSkYiJz/numtfA6qMFOW7pSmIiZcsGMF+LkAdslFPLNUMlhXDXYG95rozV79eVN2 q2hg4eoXkFhnq3A3itfIEwTvI+x2V9gV/+B8wBAl/lkKE3VrgGxwFxhbDRfVhEUyyHK5 CP+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=l1eWEvF5IRKzHhNgOeb4zjvfYdwhO4/9E+CE4pi8hZo=; b=UTAC+gPcA11o8OrQ6m82wTDdyyw7MrYSAXLF5s+mcx32RQFz74xaijMzJGLpTqfeup pSzTxmy4oCvO5fEmw12Y2nYx45eA/IKPFDQzAJ+WBNdmlUdStUKf/4DMMTu9vj6f2bR2 UHrrX+dLNETXy4+QQRF087Fot8P+8IPpS2+53xpZkQN+AMPQfe6RJfKXRK6TJR9GYABp 8z+0w1LNxTInnRjHuq95oW2Al8VZO4drB3PTKCp+AzjBIcoLP71K1Uz1pE6J/L/HUxtI 5QjFzPCKSObUupXFJlLZrx5324GfOTwVwKgOn//nj/9XQAlstj2qAWVg4rkiNogWc3l7 F8zQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVNlXiAjzYe+LBQwJ2r7SIKnZheNpINu+pVkfMJhpWFx3BqnGRN EgNsNYs/tPSY9Id38ExCIU+4qMSSGzahRG+5Ljaimw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwzBPbhn9ynbOe7oPTZWnC0Lgvmtv9z8sOqdD0sXjKcA9ZRU7lbHPsJZ1DxqVM3e3EVGgzqLz65V9PfXLhd6qk= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6144:: with SMTP id v65mr44253665qkb.465.1568367203591; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 02:33:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5B57874F-8C54-4E82-BB55-A2B6585B6AE6@bell.ca> <704dbd1e-b1e6-0924-42b1-6bf19fa785fe@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 11:33:14 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000c3dc905926bf2e9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 09:33:28 -0000 --0000000000000c3dc905926bf2e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Tom, Robert, > > Right, but isn't that precisely one of the arguments that 16 byte SIDs are > a problem? For instance, if my parsing buffer is 128 bytes then that allows > an SRH with at most four or maybe five SIDs if I'm not mistaken. It seems > like the smaller SID size of SRV6+, even with the DOH PSSI, option still > would produce smaller a header chain than SRV6 and thereby allow more > segments in the header. > Let me just send a ref to one of the IETF emails from eng of one of the major NPU data plane vendor ... He said: It clearly depends on the device capabilities. For a device with a parsing buffer of *256 bytes* that should be plenty of room for HBH options, SR header, transport layer, etc. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/RapEwM8JcMZjFZtqcsF1NqXWDUI# I also know from other direct discussions that 256 bytes is the defacto standard in modern chips. But the reality is and this has been already said as well that most use cases use just a few SIDs say anywhere from 1-4. Beyond that while of course you will find customer stating I need 10 you can use uSID or draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np Thx, R. --0000000000000c3dc905926bf2e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tom,

Robert,

<= div dir=3D"auto">Right, but isn't that precisely one of the arguments t= hat 16 byte SIDs are a problem? For instance, if my parsing buffer is 128 b= ytes then that allows an SRH with at most four or maybe five SIDs if I'= m not mistaken. It seems like the smaller SID size of SRV6+, even with the = DOH PSSI, option still would produce smaller a header chain than SRV6 and t= hereby allow more segments in the header.

Let me just send a ref to one of the IETF emails from eng = of one of the major NPU data plane vendor ...=C2=A0

He said:=C2=A0

    It clearly depends =
on the device capabilities. For a device with a parsing buffer of 256 by=
tes
    that should be plenty of room for HBH options, SR header, transport lay=
er, etc.

I also kn= ow from other direct discussions that 256 bytes is the defacto standard in = modern chips.=C2=A0

But the reality is and thi= s has been already said as well that most use cases use just a few SIDs say= anywhere from 1-4. Beyond that while of course you will find customer stat= ing I need 10 you can use uSID or=C2=A0draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np

Thx,=
R.


--0000000000000c3dc905926bf2e9-- From nobody Fri Sep 13 05:45:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4613E1200F3 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:45:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z25YVLSywWE9 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x835.google.com (mail-qt1-x835.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::835]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1324A1200EB for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x835.google.com with SMTP id j1so20952803qth.1 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:45:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qb32YtDBunLeH/SMc2l4Uix35exPIFe9OXVi8Q3EH5w=; b=WTZtkrL3x45zkAMI/Td7PNMHi7caWuqU6HVv8W4HKmLhyMSYWtfhAyFt+BLlCdwXlS n8SP42gI5BLx77wb4Jef7p9UIIOeMiNaffKnxhi9nmdnkl5t0wiKVwfXhxa4VLXsWvJZ PIjYX+ie0ekFroX3SiHoHvNf5m2k9P4Zw4mQgg5fHly8lg6HgxRnIyeUlq0kBYWFN73U +zfkOGKX7VJbOqMJU+d9esssooCLwO9XJ6CMoxCmUjFfud1VAg09k/T/SFZ/to5IsPF2 JDEMHIhzduaD2kvmSr/+wqvpYDSDvi1Iz2pKnSavFzFucFB5E44SQ0EcOgEDw2EFD13k RY7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qb32YtDBunLeH/SMc2l4Uix35exPIFe9OXVi8Q3EH5w=; b=D9umZTUSQR95e9p9A70lEynfX2ZxrsSvUop2AB1uSTi0mhgEFyn01wQW+bQsJZg1k3 E6xEPyl8gLS2TeRbJAHsUBqPgoEo+NkxuSgwis2IoiJma6gQKo6tzoEnqkZ8CD2zhObw yVIib2eM19WRs9T1KZjLd0gnl2h8DaCpxwAZleXCQl6CpMaAdxGNqZDsV/Oo76g2yx6O 0w1PqbX4DJDb2eirqIz/XPq2O3Tj8N9ZnbjBBS7M9DJ6pd16nuFrxuybNTE282srMZ9t 1413YAWwDQVnK+pEoUsu4a2V8W6svhwMdqH2mnN7M0iWjDWnX+LpFisAOKjV9oyuQVe8 Mk5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXNBb8lqpDo7aSayFmxZN0ltRNm7nVXHlB1MY6inV0+kbW2GALZ Z/fPBn/Hud+mnaNtiRZ5n8JQ7e4zsiHmPHaSyw9Q8Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyiI5djQ1H/fWJqkjeqzSDAD6sGzOSiZiJfT7jSxuZ2a9RDS4lhw3n4tAbYQ8lBbgSLli/Nmfs6FMzV4iRgIgw= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4612:: with SMTP id p18mr2675346qtn.94.1568378707951; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 05:45:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 14:44:52 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c2d41d05926e9f39" Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Per segment service instructions X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 12:45:12 -0000 --000000000000c2d41d05926e9f39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Ron, I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Destination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) described in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt I have one technical question regarding it. Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the question: PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - - SE2 - - P3 - - PE2 When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to execute following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End 2 (SE2): SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops away. >From reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segment end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the function itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute it on. So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement. When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs are attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to execute instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assume some may accept it. But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flow B the requirements are opposite: SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops away. SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up. Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. But if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! state in the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its functions into completely different headers. I don't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple attempts to put any per flow state into the large network and it all failed when faced scale. Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain." Kind regards, Robert. --000000000000c2d41d05926e9f39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ron,

I have read yet one more draf= t from the SRv6+ package defining another Destination Option type - this ti= me Per Segment Service Instruction(s) described in=C2=A0draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt
=
I have one technical question regarding it.=C2=A0
=
Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is rel= evant to the question:=C2=A0

PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - = - P2 - -=C2=A0 SE2 - - P3 - - PE2

When packet ente= rs the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to execute following = following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End 2 (SE2):

SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only inte= rfaces of bw 10G and up

SE2 - When packet is route= d out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops= away.=C2=A0

From reading the draft I think the an= swer is that you mandated the segment end functions in SRv6+ to have domain= -wide significance such that the function itself contains not only the inst= ruction but also as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the i= nstruction to execute it on.=C2=A0

So far so good = ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement.=C2=A0

When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding = RH is read and PSSIs are attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are = tried but only one is known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same sto= ry on SE2.=C2=A0

Not sure if eveyone would be ok w= ith such model to read and attempt to execute instructions which are not fo= r a given end segment but let's assume some may accept it.=C2=A0
<= div>
But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the= flow-B and for flow B the requirements are opposite:=C2=A0

<= /div>
SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path t= o segment end node is no more then 2 hops away.=C2=A0

<= div>
SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of= bw 10G and up.=C2=A0

Well what do you= - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions and encode it in= the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1.=C2=A0

But if my de= scription matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! state in the ne= twork which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its functions into = completely different headers.=C2=A0

I don't kn= ow about others but I think we went in the past via multiple attempts to pu= t any per flow state into the large network and it all failed when faced sc= ale.=C2=A0

Also SR specifically in its archite= cture RFC8402 says that segment routing is "maintaining per-flow state= only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain."

Kind regards,
Robert.

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(20.179.150.80) by MN2PR11MB4253.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (52.135.38.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2263.21; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:33:06 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB4094.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c1d:5576:3ad6:9724]) by MN2PR11MB4094.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c1d:5576:3ad6:9724%4]) with mapi id 15.20.2263.016; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:33:06 +0000 From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" To: "spring@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Pseudocode alignment action item closure Thread-Index: AQHVaiqmAEyVuma8UU6UcgJQ/D92PQ== Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:33:06 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=pcamaril@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [176.83.219.71] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2beaada9-8a98-4f83-b191-08d73870701d 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2019 17:33:06.2062 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: DqF69tggDkpT50jPWYYQz5O6mmtrpYAnQ6OoN15dH8gIrmpLrvvIluQQdqMdtRGA+0FL5Ck18vEzMox0/6tW9w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4253 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.29, xch-aln-019.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: Pseudocode alignment action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 17:33:12 -0000 --_000_DF67F570583443E4BAF3C4A465FF3EA8ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Following up with the action items from IETF105 regarding Network Programmi= ng, the authors have been working on an updated revision that brings the ps= eudocode definition in consistency with the SRH. We are close to complete the work and would like to inform the working grou= p that we intend to submit the proposal by September 20th, allowing the wor= king group to review before IETF106. Cheers, Pablo. --_000_DF67F570583443E4BAF3C4A465FF3EA8ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <74A634691B12F3418A5FD2D3F6DD0F1C@namprd11.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,
 
Following up with the action items from IETF105 regarding Network Programmi= ng, the authors have been working on an updated revision that brings the ps= eudocode definition in consistency with the SRH.
 
We are close to complete the work and would like to inform the working grou= p that we intend to submit the proposal by September 20th, allowing the wor= king group to review before IETF106.
 
Cheers,
Pablo.
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boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB5463FF952118009D5A996997AEB30BYAPR05MB5463namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b496307c-93b2-4fa3-c04f-08d738759a82 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Sep 2019 18:10:04.9344 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 6Q9WlHsfJI6a5EgBypIro2YbLe6TAwPEtLQelUWjGN6NLYOoa4zxLur8T/hrVNP0Leu8e5gJLiCSEGishBL5zw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB5365 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-13_08:2019-09-11,2019-09-13 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909130184 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 18:10:14 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463FF952118009D5A996997AEB30BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Se= rvice Instruction (PSSI). In SRv6+: * The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE problems * The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewalling,= sampling, DPI) This leaves the following questions to be answered: * How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email? * Given another example, explain how PSSI works? Which question would you like me to tackle first? Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Per segment service instructions Dear Ron, I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Dest= ination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) describe= d in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt I have one technical question regarding it. Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the qu= estion: PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - - SE2 - - P3 - - PE2 When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to ex= ecute following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End = 2 (SE2): SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. >From reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segment = end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the funct= ion itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wi= de significance the location of the instruction to execute it on. So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement= . When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs a= re attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is = known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to exec= ute instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assume som= e may accept it. But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flo= w B the requirements are opposite: SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up. Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions = and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. But if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! sta= te in the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its fun= ctions into completely different headers. I don't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple atte= mpts to put any per flow state into the large network and it all failed whe= n faced scale. Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing = is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain= ." Kind regards, Robert. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB5463FF952118009D5A996997AEB30BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE proble= m with a Per Segment Service Instruction (PSSI). In SRv6+:

 

  • The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE problems
  • The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g.= , firewalling, sampling, DPI)

 

This leaves the following questions to be answered:<= o:p>

 

  • How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email?
  • Given another example, explain how PSSI works?=

 

Which question would you like me to tackle first?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;         Ron

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Per segment service instructions

 

Dear Ron,

 

I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ pa= ckage defining another Destination Option type - this time Per Segment Serv= ice Instruction(s) described in draft-boni= ca-6man-seg-end-opt

 

I have one technical question regarding it. 

 

Imagine I have following topology - drawing only wha= t is relevant to the question: 

 

PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - -  SE2 - - P3 - - P= E2

 

When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to = program my flow A to execute following following functions on Segment End 1= (SE1) and Segment End 2 (SE2):

 

SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only= interfaces of bw 10G and up

 

SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure tha= t path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops away. 

 

From reading the draft I think the answer is that yo= u mandated the segment end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide signi= ficance such that the function itself contains not only the instruction but= also as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute it on. 

 

So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encodin= g the above requirement. 

 

When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding= RH is read and PSSIs are attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are= tried but only one is known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story = on SE2. 

 

Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to r= ead and attempt to execute instructions which are not for a given end segme= nt but let's assume some may accept it. 

 

But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving= the flow-B and for flow B the requirements are opposite: <= /p>

 

SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure tha= t path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops away. 

 

SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only= interfaces of bw 10G and up. 

 

Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two= domain wide functions and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. = ;

 

But if my description matches the plan you now end u= p with per flow !!! state in the network which is the price to pay for spli= tting SIDs with its functions into completely different headers. =

 

I don't know about others but I think we went in the= past via multiple attempts to put any per flow state into the large networ= k and it all failed when faced scale. 

 

Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 say= s that segment routing is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingr= ess node(s) to the SR domain."

 

Kind regards,

Robert.

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB5463FF952118009D5A996997AEB30BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 13 12:32:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9911B120111; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 12:32:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mpc687eTpZBT; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x435.google.com (mail-pf1-x435.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::435]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A40791200FA; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x435.google.com with SMTP id x127so18681523pfb.7; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jxSvMNGCUBbkAD3vwlWYW4VE8U12l79zd2EnUCLkQBI=; b=ZRj+4n2dhrIjUBj3DdLQCwbuRjmFPSvHbceimEWtzx8Ew75iLhq1dyT30KtT+3eqgj XhjMS87h/2jehBvU7LyC6uXjSOf+xNYCzKfT8JC/pR/V32gFDv0gkObUrzhaqfrHHbSS KUWmrqvEJuTdMrJqU1OxcOxA2psXI/xjw1zjCQ2QB7sf2U97NBYB2Cf2FrIz7FguK5fl Owenm4MaDOE8h0TD5WA1ymxRFotPQui1Woin2KBWOSOfO7Lj+U8vYULYYSWObdp1SpqR R/YzF/3dNftBAdaTFp1raXfEYURKGFTgNQN6XKwV+ryYPHX39BE1tv1lLQC4VhXeNwoA yFvA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jxSvMNGCUBbkAD3vwlWYW4VE8U12l79zd2EnUCLkQBI=; b=dayu6H73MyJhukGbQs9ii6JMJ0gQp9++agtNpI8VY8092S+f0Bd1kY5gJ9SN23jyTL lTftigihF+7v+8loEXvXhHkrQAUwU+U+yLqMFYpueMKyRg0uaAeCyLZHcactZiAX5+Cc iPRvDqlfRDM6E31J7jBASkfB1nLCMfVCLCNVfD6PfPlEsgDYF3SuVMIm6I27G0MX9JT5 vI4EW4SOeWt/OjGzNUB6z8Ir48vKV3qebQyra+h9idyaQohBmjzF4pTb8HFjIHF4o4CH /oQyZ2okv2HfXP4ZgO/K8AzuJNvsIavc+7kB9kX9xhTGCZi8DU7i7kVF4KbL1Bj1kvrA s4ng== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWQy19SZ/KlXxpJtm2w/ERiL1r5GumodZjzrIT9Q6JfCgzXBGwu vdtRQKNIfknEBe0AOXC0SIFqVLsx8pYStldVIM3w33/sPI0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyS9nVKdTnC60GMtRhletLLFdNwE5Rb6kxPaUisd7LzueywN+ommgwbFq4WUoBnAlyA2JCRgr+RppkokYpMMpo= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9386:: with SMTP id t6mr59268441pfe.214.1568403140577; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 12:32:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 21:32:11 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000f114705927450ef" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 19:32:25 -0000 --0000000000000f114705927450ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Ron, My note and choice of function descriptions was absolutely not binding. I used it to simply illustrate my understanding how your SRv6+ architecture works in regards to Segment End execution not to seek another replacement solution for this specific set of requirements. Sure you could perhaps invent Adj SID mapping grouping all links over 10G. Inventing SID to indicate dynamic variable like hop count which changes in time scale towards next destination is more involved if you want to push it into CRH. But bottom line is to highlight that DOH's PSSI containing segment end functions in SRv6+ architecture are: a) executed at each segment end regardless if function even applies or makes sense on such segment end b) are of domian-wide significance with all of the consequences of such design choice Many thx, Robert. On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 8:10 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment > Service Instruction (PSSI). In SRv6+: > > > > - The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE problems > - The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., > firewalling, sampling, DPI) > > > > This leaves the following questions to be answered: > > > > - How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email? > - Given another example, explain how PSSI works? > > > > Which question would you like me to tackle first? > > > > Ron > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Per segment service instructions > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another > Destination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) > described in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt > > > > I have one technical question regarding it. > > > > Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the > question: > > > > PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - - SE2 - - P3 - - PE2 > > > > When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to > execute following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment > End 2 (SE2): > > > > SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G > and up > > > > SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end > node is no more then 2 hops away. > > > > From reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segment > end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the > function itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of > domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute it on. > > > > So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above > requirement. > > > > When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs > are attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is > known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. > > > > Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to > execute instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assume > some may accept it. > > > > But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for > flow B the requirements are opposite: > > > > SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end > node is no more then 2 hops away. > > > > SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G > and up. > > > > Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions > and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. > > > > But if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! > state in the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its > functions into completely different headers. > > > > I don't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple > attempts to put any per flow state into the large network and it all failed > when faced scale. > > > > Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing > is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR > domain." > > > > Kind regards, > > Robert. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000000f114705927450ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ron,

<= /div>
My note and choice of function descriptions was abs= olutely not binding. I used it to simply illustrate my understanding how yo= ur SRv6+ architecture works in regards to Segment End execution not to seek= another replacement solution for this specific set of requirements.=C2=A0<= /div>

Sure you could perhaps= invent Adj SID mapping grouping all links over 10G. Inventing SID to indic= ate dynamic variable like hop count which changes in time scale towards nex= t destination is more involved if you want to push it into CRH.=C2=A0
=

But bottom line is to highl= ight that DOH's PSSI containing segment end functions=C2=A0in SRv6+ arc= hitecture are:=C2=A0

a= ) executed at each segment end regardless if function even applies or makes= sense on such segment end=C2=A0

b) are of domian-wide significance with all of the consequences = of such design choice

= Many thx,
Robert.


=
On Fri, Se= p 13, 2019 at 8:10 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE proble= m with a Per Segment Service Instruction (PSSI). In SRv6+:

=C2=A0

  • The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE problem= s
  • The PSSI is used too provide non-routing servi= ces (e.g., firewalling, sampling, DPI)

=C2=A0

This leaves the following questions to be answered:<= u>

=C2=A0

  • How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email?<= u>
  • Given another example, explain how PSSI works?

=C2=A0

Which question would you like me to tackle first?=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Per segment service instructions

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ packag= e defining another Destination Option type - this time Per Segment Service = Instruction(s) described in=C2=A0draft-bonica-6= man-seg-end-opt

=C2=A0

I have one technical question regarding it.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Imagine I have following topology - drawing only wha= t is relevant to the question:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - -=C2=A0 SE2 - - P3 - - P= E2

=C2=A0

When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to = program my flow A to execute following following functions on Segment End 1= (SE1) and Segment End 2 (SE2):

=C2=A0

SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only= interfaces of bw 10G and up

=C2=A0

SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure tha= t path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops away.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

From reading the draft I think the answer is that yo= u mandated the segment end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significa= nce such that the function itself contains not only the instruction but als= o as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute it on.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI enc= oding the above requirement.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding= RH is read and PSSIs are attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are= tried but only one is known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same st= ory on SE2.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to r= ead and attempt to execute instructions which are not for a given end segme= nt but let's assume some may accept it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving= the flow-B and for flow B the requirements are opposite:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure tha= t path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops away.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only= interfaces of bw 10G and up.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two= domain wide functions and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

But if my description matches the plan you now end u= p with per flow !!! state in the network which is the price to pay for spli= tting SIDs with its functions into completely different headers.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I don't know about others but I think we went in= the past via multiple attempts to put any per flow state into the large ne= twork and it all failed when faced scale.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 say= s that segment routing is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingr= ess node(s) to the SR domain."

=C2=A0

Kind regards,

Robert.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

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LS0tLQ0KPiBJRVRGIElQdjYgd29ya2luZyBncm91cCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gaXB2NkBpZXRm Lm9yZw0KPiBBZG1pbmlzdHJhdGl2ZSBSZXF1ZXN0czogaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pcHY2DQo+IC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQo+IA0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0Kc3ByaW5nIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0Kc3By aW5nQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Nwcmlu Zw0K From nobody Fri Sep 13 20:22:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951CB1200B8; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 20:22:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiAgICAgID4g c3ByaW5nIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiAgICAgID4gc3ByaW5nQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ICAgICAgPiBo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NwcmluZw0KPiAgICAgID4NCj4g ICAgICANCj4gDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fDQpzcHJpbmcgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpzcHJpbmdAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc3ByaW5nDQo= From nobody Fri Sep 13 20:55:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AFB1200E3; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 20:55:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, 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X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX9kmyr1P2S8YiYi0AQWwpoG4xDAmuleEbKAEuE8s2h3hzyJGGW GQFB7xrUYiMlWtEi5a4baUoh3WqwkRnG8bm8JUA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwikWGI7BZrNXESewk2LmYkYN2geWx+uJupF7qa1zSXQY13yE7I6TQ66N9h2J4jqhLQ+Lf1QtiaREZilXtrwH4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1e7b:: with SMTP id m27mr17193713otr.74.1568433345805; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 20:55:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A44E3@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A44E3@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 13:55:35 +1000 Message-ID: To: Xiejingrong Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e435c05927b58eb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 03:55:49 -0000 --0000000000006e435c05927b58eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 14 Sep 2019, 13:22 Xiejingrong, wrote: > I agree with Joel, and strongly opposed to the proposal text ! > > "The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any extensio= n > header indicates that the payload content is identified via the segment > identifier in the IPv6 Destination Address." > > It is a hole digging to exclude other possible ways of indication of > 'Opaque Payload format', for example, use IPv6 Source Address, or use > options in EH to identify. > Wow, this is getting perverse. Is there any IPv6 packet field that SPRING aren't willing to abuse for a non-compliant purpose? > As I raise this question in March, I haven't expect the proposal would be > so tricky! > > Thanks > Jingrong > > > -----Original Message----- > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Halper= n > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 1:44 AM > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) ; SPRING WG < > spring@ietf.org> > Cc: 6man@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=3D59 > action item closure > > 1) The way you wrote the text, it would apply to carried IPv4 or carried > IPv6. > > 2) If it is carried Ethernet, us 97. > 2') If you insist that you need a new format for carried Ethernet after > SRH, get a code point for that. > > 3) If there is some other use case, document it and get a code point for > it. particularly given that SID meanings may not be registered, removing > teh ability to tell what the payload is seems a drawback, not a benefit. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 9/12/2019 1:39 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Joel, > > > > This NH value is to be used when the payload does not contain any > Internet Protocol. > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > > From: "Joel M. Halpern" > > Date: Thursday, 12 September 2019 at 19:27 > > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , SPRING WG > > > > Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: > > NH=3D59 action item closure > > > > While that proposal does remove the mis-use of next-header 59, it > seems > > a very odd use. > > It seems to be an effort to avoid needing to register next-header > > values. Why? > > > > For example, if what is carried after the SRH is an IPv6 packet > then the > > next header value for IPv6 (41) would seem the appropriate thing t= o > use. > > That would produce consistent parsing and clarity. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > On 9/12/2019 1:01 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Following the comments from IETF105, the working group preferred > to > > > allocate a new Next Header value. > > > > > > The authors would like to propose this diff. Any feedback is > welcome. > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number > value > > > for =E2=80=9CSRv6 payload=E2=80=9D with the following definition= : > > > > > > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any > > > extension header indicates that the payload content is identifie= d > via > > > the segment identifier in the IPv6 Destination Address. > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > We would propose to submit a revision with this text on the IANA > section > > > of NET-PGM beginning of next week. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Pablo. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > spring mailing list > > > spring@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000006e435c05927b58eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




On Sat, 14 Sep 2019, 13:22 Xiejingrong, <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
I agree with Joel, and strongly opposed to the proposal tex= t !

"The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any exten= sion header indicates that the payload content is identified via the segmen= t identifier in the IPv6 Destination Address."

It is a hole digging to exclude other possible ways of indication of 'O= paque Payload format', for example, use IPv6 Source Address, or use opt= ions in EH to identify.

<= /div>
Wow, this is getting perverse.

Is there any IPv6 packet field that SPRING ar= en't willing to abuse for a non-compliant purpose?








As I raise this question in March, I haven't expect the proposal would = be so tricky!

Thanks
Jingrong


-----Original Message-----
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.= Halpern
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 1:44 AM
To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>; SPRING WG &l= t;s= pring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6= man@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=3D59 a= ction item closure

1) The way you wrote the text, it would apply to carried IPv4 or carried IP= v6.

2) If it is carried Ethernet, us 97.
2') If you insist that you need a new format for carried Ethernet after= SRH, get a code point for that.

3) If there is some other use case, document it and get a code point for it= .=C2=A0 particularly given that SID meanings may not be registered, removin= g teh ability to tell what the payload is seems a drawback, not a benefit.<= br>
Yours,
Joel

On 9/12/2019 1:39 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Joel,
>
> This NH value is to be used when the payload does not contain any Inte= rnet Protocol.
>
> Cheers,
> Pablo.
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
> Date: Thursday, 12 September 2019 at 19:27
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com&= gt;, SPRING WG
> <spring@ietf.org>
> Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming:
> NH=3D59 action item closure
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 While that proposal does remove the mis-use of nex= t-header 59, it seems
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a very odd use.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It seems to be an effort to avoid needing to regis= ter next-header
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 values.=C2=A0 Why?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 For example, if what is carried after the SRH is a= n IPv6 packet then the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 next header value for IPv6 (41) would seem the app= ropriate thing to use.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 That would produce consistent parsing and c= larity.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Joel
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 9/12/2019 1:01 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) w= rote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi all,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Following the comments from IETF105, the work= ing group preferred to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > allocate a new Next Header value.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The authors would like to propose this diff. = Any feedback is welcome.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <OLD>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A09.=C2=A0 IANA Consideratio= ns
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document requ= ests the following new IANA registries:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > </OLD>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > <NEW>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A09.=C2=A0 IANA Consideratio= ns
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This document requests IANA to allocate a new= IP Protocol Number value
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > for =E2=80=9CSRv6 payload=E2=80=9D with the f= ollowing definition:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an = IPv6 header or any
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > extension header indicates that the payload c= ontent is identified via
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the segment identifier in the IPv6 Destinatio= n Address.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document requ= ests the following new IANA registries:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > </NEW>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > We would propose to submit a revision with th= is text on the IANA section
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > of NET-PGM beginning of next week.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Pablo.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _____________________________________________= __
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.iet= f.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spr= ing@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /a>
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spr= ing@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /a>
--0000000000006e435c05927b58eb-- From nobody Fri Sep 13 22:03:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE96C1200E3; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 22:03:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8M-W-KVQy8vN; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 22:03:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA4-Dor.bell.ca (esa4-dor.bell.ca [204.101.223.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B27212003F; Fri, 13 Sep 2019 22:03:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dc5cmz-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.121.232]) by esa04corp-dor.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 14 Sep 2019 01:03:24 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120b::8eb6:120b) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 01:03:23 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([::1]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Sat, 14 Sep 2019 01:03:23 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: Ron Bonica , Robert Raszuk CC: SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [EXT]RE: Per segment service instructions Thread-Index: AQHVarm81EQgA5AggkOfLsSOqmefjQ== Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 05:03:23 +0000 Message-ID: <5971B5F4-74C1-4DD0-BBD2-D76BE105532E@bell.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: 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([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:17:13 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: Ron Bonica , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , List CC: Rob Shakir , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Tarek Saad , Robert Raszuk Thread-Topic: [EXT]RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: AQHVbIis43pGHrXgX0q1ZmDxA1StdQ== Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:17:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.e.190909 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.28.92.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A3145D876C444CE9963CAA0765756785bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:17:20 -0000 --_000_A3145D876C444CE9963CAA0765756785bellca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Um9uDQoNCk9uIDIwMTktMDktMTIsIDEwOjU3IEFNLCAiUm9uIEJvbmljYSIgPHJib25pY2FAanVu aXBlci5uZXQ8bWFpbHRvOnJib25pY2FAanVuaXBlci5uZXQ+PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KRGFuLA0KDQpC b3RoIGdvb2QgcXVlc3Rpb25zICEhIQ0KDQpJbiBPbGXigJlzIGV4YW1wbGUsIGEgc2VnbWVudCBl bmRwb2ludCB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCB0aGUgU1IgZWdyZXNzIG5vZGUgZXhlY3V0ZXMgYSBzZXJ2aWNl IGluc3RydWN0aW9uLiBJbiBTUnY2KywgdGhpcyBraW5kIG9mIHNlcnZpY2UgaW5zdHJ1Y3Rpb24g aXMgY2FsbGVkIGEgUGVyIFNlZ21lbnQgU2VydmljZSBJbnN0cnVjdGlvbiAoUFNTSSkuIEl0IGlz IGVuY29kZWQgaW4gYSBEZXN0aW5hdGlvbiBPcHRpb25zIGhlYWRlciB0aGF0IHByZWNlZGVzIHRo ZSBSb3V0aW5nIGhlYWRlci4gQmVjYXVzZSBJUHY2IHByb2Nlc3NlcyBleHRlbnNpb24gaGVhZGVy 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Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:17:14 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([::1]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:17:14 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: Ron Bonica , Mark Smith CC: Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Thread-Topic: [EXT]RE: [spring] Beyond SRv6. Thread-Index: AQHVbIisxkP6Iaey40yZjD4zAt0kbA== Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:17:14 +0000 Message-ID: <15496F39-B159-48FA-8ADC-3E638CEC8FC0@bell.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.e.190909 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.28.92.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_15496F39B15948FA8ADC3E638CEC8FC0bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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--_000_BYAPR05MB546349647D53024EE6F5CFA5AE8C0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel, Yes, you will need one PSSI for each combination of service elements in the= domain. However, PSSIs are allocated at configuration time on a per domain= basis. There is no need for vendor involvement or interdomain co-ordinatio= n. Beyond that, there are many ways to approach service function chaining in S= Rv6+. Among these are: * Use the PSSI * Dedicate an IP address to each service and omit the PSSI * Use the NSH and omit the PSSI Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2019 1:03 AM To: Ron Bonica ; Robert Raszuk Cc: SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions Hi Ron, If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert's example whic= h offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain-wide PSSI def= ining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need F= W, then I need another domain-wide PSSI for only FW. In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations which mu= st be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSSI X for = FW while vendor B think's its DPI). Thx Dan B On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, "ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" on behalf of rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote: Robert, In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Se= rvice Instruction (PSSI). In SRv6+: - The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE probl= ems - The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewal= ling, sampling, DPI) This leaves the following questions to be answered: - How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email= ? - Given another example, explain how PSSI works? Which question would you like me to tackle first? Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM To: Ron Bonica > Cc: SPRING WG >; 6man <6man@ietf.or= g> Subject: Per segment service instructions Dear Ron, I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Dest= ination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) describe= d in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt I have one technical question regarding it. Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the qu= estion: PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - - SE2 - - P3 - - PE2 When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to ex= ecute following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End = 2 (SE2): SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. >From reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segment = end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the funct= ion itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wi= de significance the location of the instruction to execute it on. So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement= . When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs a= re attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is = known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to exec= ute instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assume som= e may accept it. But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flo= w B the requirements are opposite: SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up. Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions = and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. But if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! sta= te in the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its fun= ctions into completely different headers. I don't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple atte= mpts to put any per flow state into the large network and it all failed whe= n faced scale. Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing = is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain= ." Kind regards, Robert. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB546349647D53024EE6F5CFA5AE8C0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Daniel,

 

Yes, you will need one PSSI for each combination of = service elements in the domain. However, PSSIs are allocated at configurati= on time on a per domain basis. There is no need for vendor involvement or i= nterdomain co-ordination.

 

Beyond that, there are many ways to approach service= function chaining in SRv6+. Among these are:

 

  • Use the PSSI
  • Dedicate an IP address to each serv= ice and omit the PSSI
  • Use the NSH and omit the PSSI<= o:p>

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;           Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2019 1:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; Rober= t Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions

 

Hi Ron,<= /span>

 

If PSSI provide non= -routing services such as SE1 from Robert’s example which offers DPI,= FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain-wide PSSI defining DPI = 3; FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need FW, then I need another domain-wide PSSI for only FW.

In that model, I wi= ll end up with and endless list of permutations which must be agreed upon t= o ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSSI X for FW while vendor B t= hink’s its DPI).

 

Thx

Dan B

 

 

 

 

Robe= rt,

&nbs= p;

In y= our email, you ask how I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Servic= e Instruction (PSSI). In SRv6+:

&nbs= p;

-=    &n= bsp;      The CRH and the SIDs th= at it contains are used to solve TE problems

-=    &n= bsp;      The PSSI is used too pr= ovide non-routing services (e.g., firewalling, sampling, DPI)

 

This= leaves the following questions to be answered:

&nbs= p;

-=    &n= bsp;      How would I solve the T= E problem that you describe in your email?

-=    &n= bsp;      Given another example, = explain how PSSI works?

&nbs= p;

Whic= h question would you like me to tackle first?

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;    Ron

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

F= rom: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org= >; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Per segment service instructions

&nbs= p;

Dear= Ron,

&nbs= p;

I ha= ve read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Dest= ination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) describe= d in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt<= o:p>

&nbs= p;

I ha= ve one technical question regarding it. 

&nbs= p;

Imag= ine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the questi= on: 

&nbs= p;

PE1 = - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - -  SE2 - - P3 - - PE2

&nbs= p;

When= packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to execut= e following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End 2 (S= E2):

&nbs= p;

SE1 = - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and u= p

&nbs= p;

SE2 = - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end node = is no more then 2 hops away. 

&nbs= p;

From= reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segment end = functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the funct= ion itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the instruct= ion to execute it on. 

&nbs= p;

So f= ar so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement.&nb= sp;

&nbs= p;

When= packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs are a= ttempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is know= n so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. 

&nbs= p;

Not = sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to execute = instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assume some ma= y accept it. 

&nbs= p;

But = now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flow B = the requirements are opposite: 

&nbs= p;

SE1 = - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end node = is no more then 2 hops away. 

&nbs= p;

SE2 = - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and u= p. 

&nbs= p;

Well= what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions and = encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. 

&nbs= p;

But = if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! state i= n the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its functio= ns into completely different headers. 

&nbs= p;

I do= n't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple attempts= to put any per flow state into the large network and it all failed when fa= ced scale. 

&nbs= p;

Also= SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing is &= quot;maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domai= n."

&nbs= p;

Kind= regards,

Robe= rt.

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

Juniper Business= Use Only

--_000_BYAPR05MB546349647D53024EE6F5CFA5AE8C0BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Mon Sep 16 08:59:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8D5120052; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krsEh5nJMASE; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd32.google.com (mail-io1-xd32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3A9F120120; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd32.google.com with SMTP id k5so256148iol.5; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:59:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :mime-version; bh=jH60CoHZ1zAp7VgokI2a1afwblJ9ecjFpb3/xWVQZ3k=; b=jgkvtdbXMmzeAO9FFcQdgbqW08Wb+WJHYgaf0GuTC+7v1EU45Zi6FZfIhdQ6JtiW+Z TM0Lailk2ddm8NWz+flnhFDr5Yv1olo5kJ/J45PGQw+8SfyVkt3x1YJT8YiqfDjvaJBk 4byHcFryPs6vb4x8+yVGwzBIhVOSRycCFP8vAf5jkTHQfWiBOEVJWrlQRzrvNB6ifr8J AujXrcmTfguLEvXim7x4pOgE+rNvHg3Wl0Q7EpjJlAAPuILKbMvPebtD8ToAfAGh1Jxa Vm5Uor91JcijCq7vHMlEVJTbZgE+mOqdoBhv1u+NXUKIHFOfi6pcxPd1pA0S8xvwvOjf XMKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:thread-topic:thread-index :date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language :content-language:mime-version; bh=jH60CoHZ1zAp7VgokI2a1afwblJ9ecjFpb3/xWVQZ3k=; b=GFujG1Qm40wDsFLuUsDWSmtZmUYUSx4fhiFDXsFv4YtNDDV2Y/JNcufEuR9l9aMX+2 8COLHOQWY0KaiNUoouDod40DVWk/vdxd9h2h8cMJrS2qAuo1+nG28gXrCSsCBSJXMxsC QOcZRJ76VLkB5wKRLeOWeREIqdAT34ilbBeWdPjMGIyf9hlnPkFCL/+sWxa2b96HqJLL hD02vHGNloTA+0J8lVHJ3mex95/uv7UDKg/zfrg1cZRF3JUfPq7NidZfmzoTYwGyJl4e kOCsdsv2h5TYTkP13rr9EQTw6vHJbFz6wRnZnuPe0Bla9bj+rkbOPNQi/C/Pm113SUqY TdRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW5/aF7GVo3ZAM613s5vvzOVM3S6RmBWf2UOaEhs1KevKny4hmO 6shkQUAG3IN6MnDOphmgN9c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzU5exM2cVCAXWAQEM+4gEmn77H7s2Ckdxax9SCN9R0bCsWC6pcYp6E7sXK593iuFjN5b4whw== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:db0e:: with SMTP id t14mr594814ioc.93.1568649562974; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BYAPR19MB3415.namprd19.prod.outlook.com ([2603:1036:307:293b::5]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m21sm5142982iob.82.2019.09.16.08.59.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Sep 2019 08:59:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Tarek Saad To: "Bernier, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , Robert Raszuk CC: SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] Per segment service instructions Thread-Index: AUVFRDQ0Xpdx8rrF03kgSRBiTjE2wKBOxv62 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:59:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5971B5F4-74C1-4DD0-BBD2-D76BE105532E@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: <5971B5F4-74C1-4DD0-BBD2-D76BE105532E@bell.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-SCL: -1 X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR19MB3415DA7196E45FF52A740ED3FC8C0BYAPR19MB3415namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:59:28 -0000 --_000_BYAPR19MB3415DA7196E45FF52A740ED3FC8C0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, A possible way to avoid domain wide scope of PSSI, would be to encode a per= node ID within the PSSI (per node namespace of Service IDs). This allows the node parsing the DOH to identify PSSI(s) that needs to be i= nvoked locally and to resolve the Service ID within its node scope. The per= node ID can be a SRV6+ short SID that is instantiated locally on the node. So, a PSSI =3D Short-SID.SE1 DOH can contain: Short-SID1.SE1 Short-SID2.SE2 Etc. Regards, Tarek From: spring on behalf of "Bernier, Daniel" Date: Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:03 AM To: Ron Bonica , Robert Raszuk Cc: SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions Hi Ron, If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert=92s example wh= ich offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain-wide PSSI d= efining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need= FW, then I need another domain-wide PSSI for only FW. In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations which mu= st be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSSI X for = FW while vendor B think=92s its DPI). Thx Dan B On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, "ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" on behalf of rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote: Robert, In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Se= rvice Instruction (PSSI). In SRv6+: - The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE probl= ems - The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewal= ling, sampling, DPI) This leaves the following questions to be answered: - How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email= ? - Given another example, explain how PSSI works? Which question would you like me to tackle first? Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Per segment service instructions Dear Ron, I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Dest= ination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) describe= d in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt I have one technical question regarding it. Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the qu= estion: PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - - SE2 - - P3 - - PE2 When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to ex= ecute following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End = 2 (SE2): SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. >From reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segment = end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the funct= ion itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wi= de significance the location of the instruction to execute it on. So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement= . When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs a= re attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is = known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to exec= ute instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assume som= e may accept it. But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flo= w B the requirements are opposite: SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up. Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions = and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. But if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! sta= te in the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its fun= ctions into completely different headers. I don't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple atte= mpts to put any per flow state into the large network and it all failed whe= n faced scale. Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing = is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain= ." Kind regards, Robert. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR19MB3415DA7196E45FF52A740ED3FC8C0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,<= /span>

 

A possible way to a= void domain wide scope of PSSI, would be to encode a per node ID within the= PSSI (per node namespace of Service IDs).

This allows the nod= e parsing the DOH to identify PSSI(s) that needs to be invoked locally and = to resolve the Service ID within its node scope. The per node ID can be a S= RV6+ short SID that is instantiated locally on the node.

 

So, a PSSI =3D Shor= t-SID.SE1

 

DOH can contain:

Short-SID1.SE1=

Short-SID2.SE2=

Etc.

 

Regards,=

Tarek

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-b= ounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.ber= nier@bell.ca>
Date: Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Rober= t Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions

 

Hi Ron,

 

If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert=92s ex= ample which offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain-wid= e PSSI defining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need FW, then I need another domain= -wide PSSI for only FW.

In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations = which must be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSS= I X for FW while vendor B think=92s its DPI).

Thx

Dan B

 

 

 

On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, = "ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rbonica=3D40junip= er.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Robert,

 

In your email, you ask h= ow I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Service Instruction (PSSI)= . In SRv6+:

 

-          The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE problems<= o:p>

-          The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewalling= , sampling, DPI)

 

This leaves the followin= g questions to be answered:

 

-          How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email?

-          Given another example, explain how PSSI works?

 

Which question would you= like me to tackle first?

 

    =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp; Ron

 

 

From: Robert Rasz= uk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Per segment service instructions

 

Dear Ron,

 

I have read yet one more= draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Destination Option type = - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) described in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt

 

I have one technical que= stion regarding it. 

 

Imagine I have following= topology - drawing only what is relevant to the question: =

 

PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P= 2 - -  SE2 - - P3 - - PE2

 

When packet enters the n= etwork PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to execute following followin= g functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End 2 (SE2):

 

SE1 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up

 

SE2 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 ho= ps away. 

 

From reading the draft I= think the answer is that you mandated the segment end functions in SRv6= 3; to have domain-wide significance such that the function itself contains = not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute = it on. 

 

So far so good ... Flow-= A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement. 

 

When packet enters SE1 D= estination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs are attempted to get exec= uted ! Both instructions are tried but only one is known so only one get's = executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. 

 

Not sure if eveyone woul= d be ok with such model to read and attempt to execute instructions which a= re not for a given end segment but let's assume some may accept it. 

 

But now how unfortunate = it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flow B the requirements are= opposite: 

 

SE1 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 ho= ps away. 

 

SE2 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up. <= /p>

 

Well what do you - simpl= e - you allocate another two domain wide functions and encode it in the pac= ket at PSSI DOH on PE1. 

 

But if my description ma= tches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! state in the network which = is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its functions into completely d= ifferent headers. 

 

I don't know about other= s but I think we went in the past via multiple attempts to put any per flow= state into the large network and it all failed when faced scale. 

 

Also SR specifically in = its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing is "maintaining per= -flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain."<= /p>

 

Kind regards,=

Robert.

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:59:46 +0000 From: "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List CC: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Beyond SRv6. 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09:27:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PQyzZ7OdTTyI1cG8v3KBAQ2i/oZyIRvAsjslZlIvHdo=; b=O8q7FatcTVUJ+xyCRXZv6DJyk57qV33zLSorA2cml56qgiczNnlzuz/DsVTU5jelwM oAI3kBcdD00yaallmcEkz6owlbXhV4vBjFQxetI8br9w8MkdnOiOzjoKIjV123cxSOiJ T0GWwKueqRZVhA+Mpv7gZj/tOm2YHZVMJNiiGA8MAJdr+RLCqwTsReRFJSbjH82keQqM 2NtFAum1jjzXzs1AOUEysop2Sg59jiVMbM0glg8Gm06JKSgSvn2fHHqb/hj2WkgNInnS yNEj19OnJ9CrdwIwFBScVwu95F6roQtMAP+lV5XAjG1rlPBrbgDq0U4xCoQabKeKGPf2 JM5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PQyzZ7OdTTyI1cG8v3KBAQ2i/oZyIRvAsjslZlIvHdo=; b=rp89+Ao1TOEHfwyI5fExk6bSGhramoh0LVEB8xoRMOLqKZ8m9JrCc8bA/MQQktkxJp 5p5FY/fp4gzBYny/OdfVLjojTrl6a9M5wf12lXwF+lkpKKVVjNMjMK7GhijPlMC9UYSm 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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:27:35 -0000 --0000000000008d9c2e0592ae14e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Tarek, Your line of thinking is correct but please no more additional levels of abstraction. Why not just use normal routable prefix on the node as part of the instruction ? And if so we are back to use of SRH as is - even if only for network programming :). Best, R. On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 6:00 PM Tarek Saad wrote: > Hi all, > > > > A possible way to avoid domain wide scope of PSSI, would be to encode a > per node ID within the PSSI (per node namespace of Service IDs). > > This allows the node parsing the DOH to identify PSSI(s) that needs to be > invoked locally and to resolve the Service ID within its node scope. The > per node ID can be a SRV6+ short SID that is instantiated locally on the > node. > > > > So, a PSSI =3D Short-SID.SE1 > > > > DOH can contain: > > Short-SID1.SE1 > > Short-SID2.SE2 > > Etc. > > > > Regards, > > Tarek > > > > > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of "Bernier, Daniel" < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca> > *Date: *Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:03 AM > *To: *Ron Bonica , Robert Raszuk = < > robert@raszuk.net> > *Cc: *SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert=E2=80=99s ex= ample > which offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain-wide PS= SI > defining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just > need FW, then I need another domain-wide PSSI for only FW. > > In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations which > must be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSSI X > for FW while vendor B think=E2=80=99s its DPI). > > Thx > > Dan B > > > > > > > > On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, "ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" < > ipv6-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org= > > wrote: > > > > Robert, > > > > In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment > Service Instruction (PSSI).. In SRv6+: > > > > - The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE > problems > > - The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., > firewalling, sampling, DPI) > > > > This leaves the following questions to be answered: > > > > - How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your > email? > > - Given another example, explain how PSSI works? > > > > Which question would you like me to tackle first? > > > > Ron > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> > *Subject:* Per segment service instructions > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another > Destination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) > described in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt > > > > I have one technical question regarding it. > > > > Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the > question: > > > > PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - - SE2 - - P3 - - PE2 > > > > When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to > execute following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment > End 2 (SE2): > > > > SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G > and up > > > > SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end > node is no more then 2 hops away. > > > > From reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segmen= t > end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the > function itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of > domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute it on= . > > > > So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above > requirement. > > > > When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs > are attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one = is > known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. > > > > Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to > execute instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assu= me > some may accept it. > > > > But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for > flow B the requirements are opposite: > > > > SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end > node is no more then 2 hops away. > > > > SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G > and up. > > > > Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide function= s > and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. > > > > But if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! > state in the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with it= s > functions into completely different headers. > > > > I don't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple > attempts to put any per flow state into the large network and it all fail= ed > when faced scale. > > > > Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routin= g > is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR > domain." > > > > Kind regards, > > Robert. > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000008d9c2e0592ae14e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Tarek,
Your line of thinking is correct but please no mo= re additional levels of abstraction. Why not just use normal routable prefi= x on the node as part of the instruction ?=C2=A0
And if so we are back to use of SRH as is - even= if only for network programming :).=C2=A0

Best,
R.

On Mon, Sep 16, = 2019 at 6:00 PM Tarek Saad <tsaad= .net@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,=

=C2=A0<= /span>

A possible way to avo= id domain wide scope of PSSI, would be to encode a per node ID within the P= SSI (per node namespace of Service IDs).

This allows the node = parsing the DOH to identify PSSI(s) that needs to be invoked locally and to= resolve the Service ID within its node scope. The per node ID can be a SRV= 6+ short SID that is instantiated locally on the node.

=C2=A0<= /span>

So, a PSSI =3D Short-= SID.SE1

=C2=A0<= /span>

DOH can contain:

Short-SID1.SE1=

Short-SID2.SE2=

Etc.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Regards,

Tarek

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of "Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Date: Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Robert Ras= zuk <robert@raszu= k.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6man <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions=

=C2=A0

Hi Ron,

=C2=A0

If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert=E2=80= =99s example which offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a dom= ain-wide PSSI defining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need FW, then I need another domain= -wide PSSI for only FW.

In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations w= hich must be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSSI= X for FW while vendor B think=E2=80=99s its DPI).

Thx

Dan B

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, &q= uot;ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

Robert,

=C2=A0

In your email, you ask how= I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Service Instruction (PSSI)..= In SRv6+:

=C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE problems<= u>

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewalling= , sampling, DPI)

=C2=A0

This leaves the following = questions to be answered:

=C2=A0

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email?=

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Given another example, explain how PSSI works?

=C2=A0

Which question would you l= ike me to tackle first?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk= <robert@raszuk.n= et>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>
Subject: Per segment service instructions

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,

=C2=A0

I have read yet one more d= raft from the SRv6+ package defining another Destination Option type - this= time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) described in=C2=A0draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt

=C2=A0

I have one technical quest= ion regarding it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Imagine I have following t= opology - drawing only what is relevant to the question:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 = - -=C2=A0 SE2 - - P3 - - PE2

=C2=A0

When packet enters the net= work PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to execute following following = functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End 2 (SE2):

=C2=A0

SE1 - When packet is route= d out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up

=C2=A0

SE2 - When packet is route= d out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops= away.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From reading the draft I t= hink the answer is that you mandated the segment end functions in SRv6+ to = have domain-wide significance such that the function itself contains not on= ly the instruction but also as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute = it on.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So far so good ... Flow-A = get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement.=C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0

When packet enters SE1 Des= tination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs are attempted to get execut= ed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is known so only one get'= s executed on SE1. Same story on SE2.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Not sure if eveyone would = be ok with such model to read and attempt to execute instructions which are= not for a given end segment but let's assume some may accept it.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

But now how unfortunate it= may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flow B the requirements are o= pposite:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

SE1 - When packet is route= d out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 hops= away.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

SE2 - When packet is route= d out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Well what do you - simple = - you allocate another two domain wide functions and encode it in the packe= t at PSSI DOH on PE1.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But if my description matc= hes the plan you now end up with per flow !!! state in the network which is= the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its functions into completely dif= ferent headers.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I don't know about oth= ers but I think we went in the past via multiple attempts to put any per fl= ow state into the large network and it all failed when faced scale.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Also SR specifically in it= s architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing is "maintaining per-f= low state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain."=

=C2=A0

Kind regards,

Robert.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good idea!! Juniper Business Use Only From: Tarek Saad Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 11:59 AM To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; Ron Bonica ; Robert Raszuk Cc: SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions Hi all, A possible way to avoid domain wide scope of PSSI, would be to encode a per= node ID within the PSSI (per node namespace of Service IDs). This allows the node parsing the DOH to identify PSSI(s) that needs to be i= nvoked locally and to resolve the Service ID within its node scope. The per= node ID can be a SRV6+ short SID that is instantiated locally on the node. So, a PSSI =3D Short-SID.SE1 DOH can contain: Short-SID1.SE1 Short-SID2.SE2 Etc. Regards, Tarek From: spring > on b= ehalf of "Bernier, Daniel" > Date: Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:03 AM To: Ron Bonica >, Robert Raszuk > Cc: SPRING WG >, 6man <6man@ietf.or= g> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions Hi Ron, If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert's example whic= h offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain-wide PSSI def= ining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need F= W, then I need another domain-wide PSSI for only FW. In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations which mu= st be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSSI X for = FW while vendor B think's its DPI). Thx Dan B On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, "ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" on behalf of rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote: Robert, In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Se= rvice Instruction (PSSI).. In SRv6+: - The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE probl= ems - The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewal= ling, sampling, DPI) This leaves the following questions to be answered: - How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email= ? - Given another example, explain how PSSI works? Which question would you like me to tackle first? Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM To: Ron Bonica > Cc: SPRING WG >; 6man <6man@ietf.or= g> Subject: Per segment service instructions Dear Ron, I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Dest= ination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) describe= d in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt I have one technical question regarding it. Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the qu= estion: PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - - SE2 - - P3 - - PE2 When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to ex= ecute following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End = 2 (SE2): SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. >From reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segment = end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the funct= ion itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wi= de significance the location of the instruction to execute it on. So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement= . When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs a= re attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is = known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to exec= ute instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assume som= e may accept it. But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flo= w B the requirements are opposite: SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up. Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions = and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. But if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! sta= te in the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its fun= ctions into completely different headers. I don't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple atte= mpts to put any per flow state into the large network and it all failed whe= n faced scale. Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing = is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain= ." Kind regards, Robert. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB54636297CCDC1E82380648F6AE8C0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Good idea!!

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com> =
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 11:59 AM
To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Ron= Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>= ;
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions

 

Hi all,<= /span>

 

A possible way to a= void domain wide scope of PSSI, would be to encode a per node ID within the= PSSI (per node namespace of Service IDs).

This allows the nod= e parsing the DOH to identify PSSI(s) that needs to be invoked locally and = to resolve the Service ID within its node scope. The per node ID can be a S= RV6+ short SID that is instantiated locally on the node.

 

So, a PSSI =3D Shor= t-SID.SE1

 

DOH can contain:

Short-SID1.SE1=

Short-SID2.SE2=

Etc.

 

Regards,=

Tarek

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on beha= lf of "Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Date: Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org= >, 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions

 

Hi Ron,

 

If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert’= s example which offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain= -wide PSSI defining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need FW, then I need another domain= -wide PSSI for only FW.

In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations = which must be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSS= I X for FW while vendor B think’s its DPI).

Thx

Dan B

 

 

 

On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, = "ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rbonica=3D40junip= er.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Robert,

 

In your email, you ask h= ow I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Service Instruction (PSSI)= .. In SRv6+:

 

-          The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE problems<= o:p>

-          The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewalling= , sampling, DPI)

 

This leaves the followin= g questions to be answered:

 

-          How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email?

-          Given another example, explain how PSSI works?

 

Which question would you= like me to tackle first?

 

    =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp; Ron

 

 

From: Robert Rasz= uk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org= >; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Per segment service instructions

 

Dear Ron,

 

I have read yet one more= draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Destination Option type = - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) described in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt

 

I have one technical que= stion regarding it. 

 

Imagine I have following= topology - drawing only what is relevant to the question: =

 

PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P= 2 - -  SE2 - - P3 - - PE2

 

When packet enters the n= etwork PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to execute following followin= g functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End 2 (SE2):

 

SE1 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up

 

SE2 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 ho= ps away. 

 

From reading the draft I= think the answer is that you mandated the segment end functions in SRv6= 3; to have domain-wide significance such that the function itself contains = not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute = it on. 

 

So far so good ... Flow-= A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement. 

 

When packet enters SE1 D= estination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs are attempted to get exec= uted ! Both instructions are tried but only one is known so only one get's = executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. 

 

Not sure if eveyone woul= d be ok with such model to read and attempt to execute instructions which a= re not for a given end segment but let's assume some may accept it. 

 

But now how unfortunate = it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flow B the requirements are= opposite: 

 

SE1 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 ho= ps away. 

 

SE2 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up. <= /p>

 

Well what do you - simpl= e - you allocate another two domain wide functions and encode it in the pac= ket at PSSI DOH on PE1. 

 

But if my description ma= tches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! state in the network which = is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its functions into completely d= ifferent headers. 

 

I don't know about other= s but I think we went in the past via multiple attempts to put any per flow= state into the large network and it all failed when faced scale. 

 

Also SR specifically in = its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing is "maintaining per= -flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain."<= /p>

 

Kind regards,=

Robert.

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:30:05 -0000 Zafar Please can you clarify: Is that all forwarding ASICs on all platforms or are there some restrictions? - Stewart On 16/09/2019 16:59, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > Dear Chairs and the WG, > > As asked by the chairs ... > > Cisco ASIC is capable of reading and writing an SRH of up to 9 (nine) > “128-bit†SIDs at the line rate performance. Furthermore, SRv6 > performance is at par with that is observed during an IPv6 packet > processing. > > Thanks > > Regards ... 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Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:36:57 +0000 From: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" To: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: SRv6 end to end integrity. Thread-Index: AQHVbMYasl4LeKAK5U2TybJ8usDHqw== Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:36:57 +0000 Message-ID: <0A3C65F8-CDA3-4CAA-B240-2577CB2F0E03@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ddukes@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [161.44.212.88] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: bab212a9-4746-445b-4e17-08d73add3ca6 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(5600167)(711020)(4605104)(1401327)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:BN7PR11MB2562; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN7PR11MB2562: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-forefront-prvs: 0162ACCC24 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(366004)(396003)(346002)(39860400002)(136003)(376002)(189003)(199004)(33656002)(316002)(6506007)(3846002)(6116002)(99286004)(14454004)(25786009)(8676002)(81156014)(2906002)(81166006)(2501003)(6486002)(71190400001)(71200400001)(8936002)(66446008)(91956017)(76116006)(66946007)(66476007)(66556008)(64756008)(66066001)(186003)(5660300002)(102836004)(53936002)(305945005)(7736002)(6436002)(4744005)(476003)(14444005)(36756003)(26005)(110136005)(2616005)(256004)(486006)(6512007)(86362001)(450100002)(478600001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BN7PR11MB2562; H:BN7PR11MB2594.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 3NupH1GzQP6JX89OfIAHxp8YSRau5BjgT++5PumsG41r5dIXzQXHBtjPTMcXDLYaLqmiyaBjs2kJ/3sRz8r9ritbNzSEKroAzqKyyTzYVYrd/FupzHqIyAgxdyRRt+vtHlpWcW3JNIOSprLlsE06M4+iyLnnBUEhnm231l2kHpqqALxlzjQx3dQzt9Pe33ZA6A33C18x/wAjnqgr2Mp784k7o2Kl0Ih4qsxQfjjp5WfU4j0y3o6iJeIWUbLAQlTRfevrdV8eHPsnmimTMayAsZtSnW39JN0PHD4sWsnnkw1u+U5pX6NCJ5z74dg3i4c9v7PYVxZiUqvayWn3ZoqrPjkUXDB2WxcaXvBDZbq8KrkMDGM+i65LAwhqdYMQtQdEacFJ9TQr9KBL8pg5wdVuo9ZScE6OGZaVvYCWI/iIyV4= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bab212a9-4746-445b-4e17-08d73add3ca6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Sep 2019 19:36:57.4500 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 6u+ER0W1TbimHvId2joo1opOgw2GQnecfA56f+AbPem8PWHVW0x/1ooebGs6/Eatl/JDLSC5fz/1R2dwwgTi9Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR11MB2562 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-5.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [spring] SRv6 end to end integrity. X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:37:08 -0000 Hi 6man working group. There has been a great deal of discussion on SRH insertion over the past se= veral weeks. We (the authors of draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion) have been l= istening carefully to the discussion and do believe that the matter can be = clarified.=20 The end to end integrity of a packet transported over an srv6 domain is abs= olutely preserved.=20 We believe we can provide an update to draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-in= sertion that will clarify the topic and plan to submit that revision by Sep= t 20. We look forward to discussion and closure of this work item. 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DQogICAgDQogICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18NCiAgICBzcHJpbmcgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgc3ByaW5nQGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgaHR0 cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zcHJpbmcNCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Mon Sep 16 12:45:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F13120142; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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by 2002:adf:f607:: with SMTP id t7mr55035wrp.60.1568663108959; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.22] ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y186sm91887wmb.41.2019.09.16.12.45.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:45:08 -0700 (PDT) To: "Francois Clad (fclad)" , Rob Shakir , "draft-xuclad-spring-sr-service-programming@ietf.org" , SPRING WG List References: <858443F5-C507-41E5-BEE6-BB91203B69E4@cisco.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <7e4beafe-a944-0dab-3a36-9b05adcc5c00@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 20:45:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <858443F5-C507-41E5-BEE6-BB91203B69E4@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] IPR Poll: draft-xuclad-spring-sr-service-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:45:22 -0000 I have no idea whether or not there is any undisclosed IPR on this draft. Please change my affiliation from Huawei to Futurewei Technologies. - Stewart On 28/06/2019 08:20, Francois Clad (fclad) wrote: > I am not aware of any undisclosed IPR related to this draft. > > Thanks, > > Francois > > *From: *Rob Shakir > *Date: *Thursday 27 June 2019 at 08:15 > *To: *"draft-xuclad-spring-sr-service-programming@ietf.org" > , SPRING WG List > > *Subject: *IPR Poll: draft-xuclad-spring-sr-service-programming > *Resent-From: * > *Resent-To: *, Xiaohu Xu , > , Daniel Bernier , > , Bruno Decraene , > , Chaitanya Yadlapalli , Wim > Henderickx , Stefano Salsano > > *Resent-Date: *Thursday 27 June 2019 at 08:14 > > Hi Authors, SPRING WG, > > In parallel to the call for working group adoption for > *draft-xuclad-spring-sr-service-programming* we would like to poll for IPR. > > If you are aware of IPR that applies > to draft-xuclad-sr-service-programming please respond to this email. If > you are aware of IPR, please indicate whether it has been disclosed in > accordance to the IETF IPR rules (detailed are described in RFCs 3979, > 4879, 3669 and 5378). > > If you are an *author or contributor* please respond to this email > regardless of whether or not you're aware of any IPR. If you are not an > author or contributor, please explicitly respond only if you're aware of > IPR that has not yet been disclosed. > > This document will not advance into the working group until such time as > we have received IPR confirmations from all authors and contributors. > > Thanks! > > Rob & Bruno > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > From nobody Mon Sep 16 13:34:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B570A1200C1; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:33:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TlRil8KRPJi0; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com (mail-pl1-x62f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0BBA1200B1; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id 4so401697pld.10; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:33:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=krfFZGa3feCm4m6gQC6SM9pdWF5SwkuqZmEP3djJrYQ=; b=CRKjgRA7YQickDQgFhihTtLhp7lAc7gVvF90/0ocNRHG0NsPKwzsWygJ8KbnZEhG9o O8Tt9s8tettCB444NwoTs4GJa/gkEMWBJ/GP6C3WHlCJMCocDzNnaBtaQO+93XF8uJB/ sFoyzWgh6McmGeG5ttcU2Rg6vh3J8wCzZqRjbZVw4Ux+Y4NwgGL56kinGX7qLPm84MYl AE34TJPjB0p8IhmSJ86S5DTxSgMJuhihcdx/J4qFD5qcsgGsqf5MRczylEeloo2Tedyy 9xO+k4RtfdTMMQqgiXoZC+/pMUAV/+v7PXHD+kovwd6dbKSbcv/1nZ22g8udt4ZE87l8 lMuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=krfFZGa3feCm4m6gQC6SM9pdWF5SwkuqZmEP3djJrYQ=; b=Ho8Q21bmPH68jVtiBKcBoVLGQvzwP5cJ2Z+Gm+pYzUu778MerlOWLlrDqdw8JE1IHx w9A4/QqYjpzTl1gpnZduyLMsMuIvJxvf5tFG9T/BkZQ43eUnBRp+ICV7MtgQokLIXj0R p5zjSERWq3dRFWix3VT2DM3t63OM6xZQGxg6VT8MImsb2SepGA42QB2/PtN7guok08BH EXR3O/laUEo4brHeFO6bRM1DM0VOVvQhaH611ZkUSHj1DheviodmaGa/prFUK3iUBTV/ 2Y5DVEMy8nwZQuQO5Nw1qXA98b38zjHQhmMLRqPuqzdt1JjklkvmVZvfcrUk0Wx2OeXR kUQA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU9d2v0bpFg91//bpHjUu6UZKF95HOPpKuPw49FaShdJBDHVSij BOvNF5i7zwzOquy3LmbcO2kn/m4S X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwjBbXdS5WEdvxJcXFa/LS2nSo+yeiCnJVxqb4Ym/q91q3bKjk9/lIuPQ+/ed+JoxyhnX5XLQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7685:: with SMTP id m5mr1787165pll.218.1568666032983; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.30] (82.206.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.206.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z2sm12139536pfq.58.2019.09.16.13.33.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:33:51 -0700 (PDT) To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Tom Herbert Cc: SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: <89AA4FDD-9812-48CD-8473-6E38E336E57F@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <53236a02-a736-b40f-d885-78e0036af416@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:33:47 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <89AA4FDD-9812-48CD-8473-6E38E336E57F@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 20:33:56 -0000 Pablo, On 17-Sep-19 07:44, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > Hi Tom, >=20 > I agree with your suggestion. What do you think of the following text? >=20 > > 9. IANA Considerations > =20 > =20 > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > =20 > > 9. IANA Considerations > =20 > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number value = for =E2=80=9COpaque=E2=80=9D with the following definition: > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any extensi= on header indicates that the payload is interpreted via a semantics previ= ously established between the source and destination. That seems clear enough. I would expect an addition to draft-ietf-opsec-i= pv6-eh-filtering, however. Something like: 3.4.x. Opaque (Protocol Number=3DTBD) =2E.. 3.4.x.3. Specific Security Implications The security implications of the Opaque header are completely unknown.= 3.4.x.4. Operational and Interoperability Impact if Blocked The impact is completely unknown. 3.4.x.5. Advice Intermediate systems should discard packets containing Opaque unless explicitly configured to allow it. Regards Brian > =20 > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > >=20 > Any feedback or other text proposal is welcome. >=20 > Many thanks, > Pablo. >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert > Date: Thursday, 12 September 2019 at 21:12 > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > Cc: SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=3D59 action= item closure >=20 > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:02 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Following the comments from IETF105, the working group preferred = to allocate a new Next Header value. > > > > The authors would like to propose this diff. Any feedback is welc= ome. > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number = value for =E2=80=9CSRv6 payload=E2=80=9D with the following definition: > > > > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any e= xtension header indicates that the payload content is identified via the = segment identifier in the IPv6 Destination Address. > > > This seems like an extremely narrow use case to justify an IP Proto= col > Number allocation. If this is the route taken, I would suggest to > define something more generic like "Interpreted" which could mean t= hat > there is a next header, but it's interpretation requires informatio= n > elsewhere in the packet. That way the number could potentially be u= sed > in other contexts than just SR. > =20 > Tom > =20 > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > We would propose to submit a revision with this text on the IANA = section of NET-PGM beginning of next week. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ip= v6 > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= --- > =20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 From nobody Mon Sep 16 13:37:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com 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Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFC5812007C for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id h33so1404135edh.12 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:03:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L5Y5S1f1lDg9EZY8mUJcnZqgUuG2zOf0UVp1lmktfcE=; b=I947v6eHcqWEvlMpDGlNdPhe8IFgEPaVDJ2wFpMt8qdYYRnLt+4XN7ASlh+H8l0rV4 EAejX6x7+1J4MqKDvzsVREtxMk5cEmA7NmkAZsEHY3Nxq6hNMHonQzFH4E3hpEaRfgQJ OARRbPfyQ12JV9B8PUnbsYAyNWbagZ1uUg4HnvZnOD+soDuH1eCEtPvntIkYhw2/bcaa XkUeWTORG4/RMcxgQf76bOACYQZitTHWPSajGQx6uAmnu3T75mYRUmcDUD7HiJpkgpsU 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d6mr2051011ejb.244.1568671438370; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:03:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89AA4FDD-9812-48CD-8473-6E38E336E57F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <89AA4FDD-9812-48CD-8473-6E38E336E57F@cisco.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 15:03:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 22:04:03 -0000 On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 12:44 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > I agree with your suggestion. What do you think of the following text? > I think it's good. This probably will also be useful in other contexts (in GUE for instance). Tom > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number value fo= r =E2=80=9COpaque=E2=80=9D with the following definition: > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any extension= header indicates that the payload is interpreted via a semantics previousl= y established between the source and destination. > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > Any feedback or other text proposal is welcome. > > Many thanks, > Pablo. > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: Tom Herbert > Date: Thursday, 12 September 2019 at 21:12 > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > Cc: SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=3D59 action i= tem closure > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:02 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > Following the comments from IETF105, the working group preferred to= allocate a new Next Header value. > > > > The authors would like to propose this diff. Any feedback is welcom= e. > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number va= lue for =E2=80=9CSRv6 payload=E2=80=9D with the following definition: > > > > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any ext= ension header indicates that the payload content is identified via the segm= ent identifier in the IPv6 Destination Address. > > > This seems like an extremely narrow use case to justify an IP Protoco= l > Number allocation. If this is the route taken, I would suggest to > define something more generic like "Interpreted" which could mean tha= t > there is a next header, but it's interpretation requires information > elsewhere in the packet. That way the number could potentially be use= d > in other contexts than just SR. > > Tom > > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > We would propose to submit a revision with this text on the IANA se= ction of NET-PGM beginning of next week. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > From nobody Mon Sep 16 16:11:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7438A12001E; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:11:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: spring@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.101.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: spring@ietf.org Message-ID: <156867550832.28116.6285375723097183818@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:11:48 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-01.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 23:11:49 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Path Segment in MPLS Based Segment Routing Network Authors : Weiqiang Cheng Han Li Mach(Guoyi) Chen Rakesh Gandhi Royi Zigler Filename : draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-01.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2019-09-16 Abstract: A Segment Routing (SR) path is identified by an SR segment list. Only the full segment list identifies the full end-to-end path, and one segment or a partial set of segments from the list cannot identify the SR path and distinguish it from other SR paths that may be partially congruent. But path identification is a pre-requisite for various use-cases such as performance measurement (PM) of an SR path. In SR for MPLS (SR-MPLS) the segment identifiers are stripped from the packet through label popping as the packet transits the network. This means that when a packet reaches the egress of the SR path, it is not possible to determine on which SR path it traversed the network. This document defines a new type of segment that is referred to as Path Segment, which is used to identify an SR path in an SR-MPLS network. When used, it is inserted at the ingress node of the SR path and immediately follows the last segment identifier in the segment list of the SR path. The Path Segment will not be popped off until it reaches the egress node of the SR path. A Path Segment can be used by the egress node to implement path identification hence to support various use-cases including SR path PM, end-to-end 1+1 SR path protection, and bidirectional SR paths correlation. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Sep 16 18:59:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9881200F8; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 18:59:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yGxRDh-wd7OD; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 18:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com [67.231.152.164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2E0D1200D7; 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A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: KLSikzQKZ9zicLdadLun00EjEXb2zhWms5U/shC6WAdW/Fwr1z4V6nsi+ALg3uXJS56P4KogNhzhGF6nLTLbNrINelsxnoxY0FVlKu/f1PxSm3jPOv4FExYbOovbsw5sucpp/gA0JpzhcQcHm5A+Ji+UWCey//JHS7AKcOVPJHbsrsnumoR8krCzLzk0BNl7MYoSWX4Po8CU8QradlRCFKsLrj0SOStlhkz7Oc5LNjN88jDjg+sffaQlwYmEMuQbba4WpLpI8gtU3ULH9+Qz93/QvMiZ403RrVJFaaR1fuN2sHeXVgu0yBTyJbyeMEMhfzWVkx63pacUR41kkpl46DxvHPZLPKeCovI/KzF892aFjZ3NRGQY3Ep+4swAqA+IVrhaXXP9KMNwIuWZwgewe6nelK+vkcTHwwRgqkBvMGo= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB5463426F1668202EE5F183EFAE8F0BYAPR05MB5463namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 00bb3b97-5531-44cd-76dc-08d73b12a42c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Sep 2019 01:59:14.3811 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Rk81Q9LfJrwfa4pVTarum5LLYvLgmJPUj6z0Qg46jVe6ZjuZetP21KH99Yl+3ZQjFMcstOzsUJFzlrHPIoHzaQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6120 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-16_09:2019-09-11,2019-09-16 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=1 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909170021 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?windows-1252?q?=93SRV6+=94_complexity_in_forwarding?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 01:59:33 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB5463426F1668202EE5F183EFAE8F0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Darren, I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: * SRv6 requires only two FIB searches * SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches * Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straight. = If so, please read on. First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that precedes= the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB sea= rches, at most. Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: * The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require= only one.) * The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-bas= ed devices, because of their role in the network, won=92t support any per s= egment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the PS= SI. That is why it is optional.) So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. So, you might now argue that: * SRv6 requires only two FIB searches * SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches * Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has two re= levant resources: * A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per seco= nd * Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per s= econd So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate the l= ine cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform has a= sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But i= t=92s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not sufficie= ntly capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report on th= e state of Juniper=92s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provide details= , you can assume that we wouldn=92t be working on this if we thought that p= erformance was going to be sub-optimal. You also suggest that Juniper=92s is the only implementation. Are you sure = that this is correct? = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG ; 6= man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad Subject: =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in the n= umber of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementations at= line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. Is =93SRv6+=94 (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at line rate? You=92ve been asked this several times. Since you=92re the only implemento= r(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am curious. Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you wil= l not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary length= DOH+set of PSSI=92s and other options is always very expensive. - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in any= ASIC or NP. Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple ident= ifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. 1 - lookup destination address 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. 4 - lookup new destination address Compare this with SRv6. 1 - lookup destination address 2 - lookup new destination address While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, these te= chnical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not go a= way. Darren On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica > wrote: --_000_BYAPR05MB5463426F1668202EE5F183EFAE8F0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Darren,

 

I think that your argument can be summarized as foll= ows:

 

  • SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
  • SRv6+ re= quires 4 or more FIB searches
  • Therefore, SRv6+ can= not possibly forward at line speed

 

Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, p= lease set me straight. If so, please read on.

 

First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB sear= ches. The DOH that precedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore = SRv6+ requires four FIB searches, at most.

 

Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the f= ollowing case:

 

  • The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require= only one.)
  • The processing node is configured to proce= ss the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based devices, because of their role in the network= , won=92t support any per segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the PSSI. That is why it is optional.)

 

So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB= searches.

 

So, you might now argue that:

 

  • SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
  • SRv6+ re= quires three and sometimes four FIB searches
  • Therefore= , SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed

 

Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required= . A platform has two relevant resources:

 

  • A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per seco= nd
  • Some number of interfaces, that can forward some nu= mber of bits per second

 

So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per s= econd to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So l= ong as a platform has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forwa= rd at line speed. But it=92s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not sufficiently capable, = of course, it will not forward at line speed.

 

In your email, you say that I have been asked severa= l times to report on the state of Juniper=92s SRv6+ implementation. Whi= le I cannot provide details, you can assume that we wouldn=92t be working o= n this if we thought that performance was going to be sub-optimal.

 

You also suggest that Juniper=92s is the only implem= entation. Are you sure that this is correct?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;       Ron

 

 

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.= com>
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@= bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG &= lt;spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <rober= t@raszuk.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad= .net@gmail.com>
Subject: =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding

 

Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, ind= eed this is evident in the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multip= le vendor implementations at line rate on merchant silicon, and multip= le vendor ASICs.

Is =93SRv6+=94 (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at= line rate? 
You=92ve been asked this several times.  Since you=92re the only = implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I a= m curious.

Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties yo= u will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple= lookups.

Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary l= ength DOH+set of PSSI=92s and other options is always very expensi= ve.
- It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs i= n any ASIC or NP.

Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple = identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node.
1 - lookup destination address
2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options.
3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label.
4 - lookup new destination address

Compare this with SRv6.
1 - lookup destination address
2 - lookup new destination address

While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, the= se technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+= PPSI will not go away.

Darren

 

On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

 

--_000_BYAPR05MB5463426F1668202EE5F183EFAE8F0BYAPR05MB5463namp_-- From nobody Mon Sep 16 19:07:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2731200F8; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QppZ7ObmrGgx; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22b.google.com (mail-oi1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D50E1200E7; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id w144so1494316oia.6; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:07:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gLS/pRPk6TnC1JM6kp4kOJ4f+l8oFOr2z+preE/KL+4=; b=ZpgmpQ3Q9jeDy4FgFsK6zNBJdI0EnnmuaXx4+K9qQoQclcpTl7Ix3RCkWPhmSjaUtA EyJAmbNvHjY5ju8P12N1PovTdKYa+Tjogd4mHhFqpL+iAlzmEr//kZsDm01MNLPqtIhR SLOfN31j3ASM8dysu8ltFGFYAp8MiL/VoInoWRwzuHS1kOMnmO6MroaR0izuZ0jDIfQr 9vIDuCmUHJhPknV/MP1k5+j1QtdpLlIlrX3bSUlKCXpyt7BssiQT+w7hmyKgTblXc5HN mkJq8fnfb8s6uxRHZZx+bDEErJzhrDgap0m0zebVv3Zr7DuptNqo0HkVMpNV0f8mVo1Z VmRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gLS/pRPk6TnC1JM6kp4kOJ4f+l8oFOr2z+preE/KL+4=; b=FKbg8rVAkvuxV7mHgDhNipcfXNvp7P7cIbfwZ1EtSbal063A8RQrUGzW3Q8FvrX0c0 3OTdaQgny201J55oH1ljWx6gEJaj4DambPzQG5NABr1XQcKudPVrw0XfJ8VaCIdTs0om JShFUnO+fou/1dtdxLYEDgZ1/kuBsrdV1xsm/+Pv+xdkggeVKfucWW15tEtOJmq/ThWd I19CaSHJPVQmsz0GQIOnkHQXy/GFevklwW07pA0xLvLqEWRl+cfWoR4Az0OCODUih0nR R7MUupYohkJ6Lh91cWiE6yXqU84dOk/mA78ZHm5NUlqqQXNw+f/U28bAkHC8O7PTyoiI HJtw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW24aV2ACZJi7VrYsJ1E92vEUSmfbJRpV06826jkFzhKtVFiQ3w eM+VEp+brdwlS12oMLE7ac/J06QustVqYjspxy4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz3GEYKpQlBz1yjs3fR7hHoTei0GqR+budlyEGGdmtDt5+kietUKs7VbDyeWeFW/6+jgf3kTi7plp6ZegKAOaQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5588:: with SMTP id j130mr1946621oib.38.1568686050567; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 19:07:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89AA4FDD-9812-48CD-8473-6E38E336E57F@cisco.com> <53236a02-a736-b40f-d885-78e0036af416@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <53236a02-a736-b40f-d885-78e0036af416@gmail.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 12:07:03 +1000 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Tom Herbert , SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:07:35 -0000 On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 06:34, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Pablo, > > On 17-Sep-19 07:44, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Hi Tom, > > > > I agree with your suggestion. What do you think of the following text? > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number value = for =E2=80=9COpaque=E2=80=9D with the following definition: > > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any extensi= on header indicates that the payload is interpreted via a semantics previou= sly established between the source and destination. > Is there really any need for this? An opaque protocol could be encoded using UDP with end-point agreed ephemeral source and destination ports. That would provide a distinguisher in the packet that identifies the end-point agreed semantics. This distinguisher would almost be essential for any troubleshooting based on a packet capture. Isn't this also creating an opportunity for IETF WGs to bypass IANA, creating their own registry, likely run badly? Surely all IETF developed protocols should be required to get IANA approved protocol, port, type, code numbers if they need fixed ones, or be required to use dynamic numbers such as UDP ports? Isn't transparency, with exception to when encryption is purposely applied, the fundamental definition of an open protocol? if this IP protocol value goes ahead, then I think it should be called "Proprietary", and restricted to non-IETF developed protocols. (And this is ignoring that past proprietary protocols such as EIGRP applied for and received IANA official protocol values.) Alternatively, isn't this Opaque NH value really saying that the upper layer protocol identifier information has been shifted into the packet's address information? If payload type and transport layer information is being shifted into the packets' address fields, isn't effectively shrinking the IPv6 address field size from 128 bits to 128 minus the bits required to identify the upper layer protocol type and identifier bits? Both Multicast formally and anycast informally encodes service or function information in addresses. I still think it is necessary to have upper layer transport protocol headers and identifiers (ports), to allow for the case where a single identifier allocated to a service or function e.g. "Name Resolution", can be implemented using different protocols (UDP/TCP 53 DNS, DoH, DoT). Another example would be a "Time Synchronisation" service, with a single address, provided over possibly RFC 868 time protocol, NTP, PTP, or Time over HTTPS (http://phk.freebsd.dk/time/20151129/) Regards, Mark. > That seems clear enough. I would expect an addition to draft-ietf-opsec-i= pv6-eh-filtering, however. Something like: > > 3.4.x. Opaque (Protocol Number=3DTBD) > ... > 3.4.x.3. Specific Security Implications > > The security implications of the Opaque header are completely unknown. > > 3.4.x.4. Operational and Interoperability Impact if Blocked > > The impact is completely unknown. > > 3.4.x.5. Advice > > Intermediate systems should discard packets containing Opaque unless > explicitly configured to allow it. > > Regards > Brian > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > Any feedback or other text proposal is welcome. > > > > Many thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Herbert > > Date: Thursday, 12 September 2019 at 21:12 > > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > > Cc: SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=3D59 action= item closure > > > > On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 10:02 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Following the comments from IETF105, the working group preferred = to allocate a new Next Header value. > > > > > > The authors would like to propose this diff. Any feedback is welc= ome. > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. IANA Considerations > > > > > > > > > > > > This document requests IANA to allocate a new IP Protocol Number = value for =E2=80=9CSRv6 payload=E2=80=9D with the following definition: > > > > > > The value TBD in the Next Header field of an IPv6 header or any e= xtension header indicates that the payload content is identified via the se= gment identifier in the IPv6 Destination Address. > > > > > This seems like an extremely narrow use case to justify an IP Proto= col > > Number allocation. If this is the route taken, I would suggest to > > define something more generic like "Interpreted" which could mean t= hat > > there is a next header, but it's interpretation requires informatio= n > > elsewhere in the packet. That way the number could potentially be u= sed > > in other contexts than just SR. > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > > > > This document requests the following new IANA registries: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We would propose to submit a revision with this text on the IANA = section of NET-PGM beginning of next week. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Pablo. > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > ipv6@ietf.org > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ip= v6 > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Sep 17 00:29:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CA41200F3; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 00:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9bC0xRddVEom; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 00:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1345E12001A; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 00:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A6CA2A41CAC1B6842D14; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:29:14 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.68) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:29:13 +0100 Received: from lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.68) by lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:29:14 +0100 Received: from NKGEML411-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.70) by lhreml717-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.68) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 08:29:13 +0100 Received: from NKGEML514-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::40a8:f0d:c0f3:2ca5]) by nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 15:29:04 +0800 From: Xiejingrong To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. Halpern" , SPRING WG CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure Thread-Index: AQHVaYuswjLFh5RZWkGE3xwRL8UAQacnxXgAgAADdYCAAAElAIACtnXwgAO0iwCAAUhjsA== Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:29:04 +0000 Message-ID: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A507C@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <16253F7987E4F346823E305D08F9115AAB9A44E3@nkgeml514-mbx.china.huawei.com> <4B89759C-1EB6-483A-AB36-EEA28A806076@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4B89759C-1EB6-483A-AB36-EEA28A806076@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.217.214] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source 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9B1504B; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 11:30:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <36C78D1D-66A6-4AB9-AD18-874E59201D3D@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2CA184AF-84AA-485A-A6C1-886A2B097ABD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 11:30:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Tarek Saad , Ron Bonica , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, SPRING WG To: Robert Raszuk References: <5971B5F4-74C1-4DD0-BBD2-D76BE105532E@bell.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:30:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2CA184AF-84AA-485A-A6C1-886A2B097ABD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Robert, > Your line of thinking is correct but please no more additional levels = of abstraction. Why not just use normal routable prefix on the node as = part of the instruction ? How large a prefix do you envision is needed per node? What size are we = talking about (roughly)? Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_2CA184AF-84AA-485A-A6C1-886A2B097ABD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VC3eloaasvH0nE1oC0DsP4kE7kFAl2Ap6sACgkQoC0DsP4k E7lokwf/ZW+/erVUiZF9BukQaJ0RghT6IMsUQLW0MI0TqC2kDYzMqBsZA/ATt+xc UwcQgk1JTk9g6IfwZEMcU2igpXfy/041uwJadFsEOFXvytCaYaAcpGdkokLgr5ao TF7yf/fSRZEN4072m/orJd4rVNrfw6kyq5xA774HIFNYU4Mh+7eOVO7xkX888fy0 HZYvT/i0miUgLndbKURtbcUzPv3Lf7/7/vasS1TwC+1oWU2vMKNucJPeszTtTb/h mZWVghwrc6abFi2dQre50RUZGb0ZXicMcsJgJXa/lnIzz7gMaRjkHZ+8LURZ0JGg 3XsfNEg+Iqw2SlHX0klVMsebYAZbJA== =wNrs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_2CA184AF-84AA-485A-A6C1-886A2B097ABD-- From nobody Tue Sep 17 06:46:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8314E120856 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 06:46:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=broadcom.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gWFm5rZ0Q-Yv for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 06:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3560D120855 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 06:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id t3so3266540wmj.1 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 06:46:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qk+ypDNXm2fKLnGnWxPF5N7w7f9mDOZCEdZHUBrjA7U=; b=JPGEmMPfyya11dMCDockmc05M7soFE2lmJ6CfVI7t940nYoepIyPIfi8B9Vh8tdtPL BR9Y9gqj1470SworRCiZNSysX7+nPepRNxPpTRW4MzwvDkaIFjRNxGsqfoU4SIw0e4tf ZYCfc+EQTRq3991EEm7aTTVjOz0y/tUdFvyKM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qk+ypDNXm2fKLnGnWxPF5N7w7f9mDOZCEdZHUBrjA7U=; b=LMWV5Cu67ND97mHOu17GbtRG9y3GQa+vaXwm/WaDqcGYX1fU+sH/deot4CftgGRo0Z LKuJqIG+izwHTbmPLlGQR9Xb+YgL6vlD4m8QYsRsBhU+kI/ZgnQ8wy0yWUis1cMlssOu NSZ7UzeOkPuL6IXtp9W2UXY6Ma/qC/c9KYQL5JXPNLiXVXx8WuiTErgV5SdFs8FYNN3s nEcVIKOUgcb2g2n8MZwfTE3+cCazroMcN7tF/vCpGlEfD/FCxXWzK/2+aIvOhptCTViz 7efxGdIqZTt4urfMvARtu8WJvCF58A9uIycgqGiFCMcRMdsX6KkZDm2Dh9grhQ4+kRB5 Mwrg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUYDYiljO6PBoRpKr3pQZgPIEKG9QJ/C4dAMR9qT4F0bnNsVqW1 OVv4zjEDZTdkjy0KzCRda4A1QS678fnJ65MZXAyHPq+Q X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxImaU7VZq9osd4DjrAQlv7G6v7qNUhuAwPRkd8Kmr6bpqgeu/7GBtJyY3CYczKbIT8zp5UeZi+3S5d/paM1so= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7919:: with SMTP id l25mr3446255wme.23.1568727995348; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 06:46:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Hamid Assarpour Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 09:46:26 -0400 Message-ID: To: spring@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9af180592bff27f" Archived-At: Subject: [spring] WG Adoption Call: draft-xuclad-spring-sr-service-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 13:46:39 -0000 --000000000000e9af180592bff27f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I'm not aware of any IPR related to this draft. Regards, Hamid. --000000000000e9af180592bff27f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
I'm not aware of any IPR related to this draft.

Regards,
Hamid.

--000000000000e9af180592bff27f-- From nobody Tue Sep 17 07:31:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E4D3120855; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WQJoNxJveWS6; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA4-Wyn.bell.ca (esa4-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20DF1120059; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm5czo-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.33]) by esa04corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 17 Sep 2019 10:30:55 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 10:30:55 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([::1]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 10:30:55 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: Ron Bonica , Tarek Saad , "Robert Raszuk" CC: SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: [EXT]RE: [spring] Per segment service instructions Thread-Index: AQHVbWSDH5eHpE8oskKcj/rJ+oq3uA== Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 14:30:55 +0000 Message-ID: <7064CDD6-B591-446B-AB13-BD8157AD591B@bell.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US 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X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: X-MS-Exchange-Organization-RecordReviewCfmType: 0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR19MB3415C64F7051394C38877E1EFC8F0BYAPR19MB3415namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 16:56:20 -0000 --_000_BYAPR19MB3415C64F7051394C38877E1EFC8F0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan, Inline.. From: "Bernier, Daniel" Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 10:30 AM To: Ron Bonica , Tarek Saad , Rob= ert Raszuk Cc: SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: RE: [spring] Per segment service instructions Tarek, My feeling is it kind of defeats the purpose. The value prop of SRv6+ was t= he separation of forwarding (LOCATOR) from service (FUNCTION) in different = EH. Now to avoid having domain-wide alignment of PSSI values, you would re-= introduce a SID in the 32bit section of PSSI to make it unique again. [TS]: indeed, topological and service SID separation is maintained in diffe= rent EHs. The idea was to limit the scope of a PSSI to per node by optional= ly namespacing it (encoding a node ID). Regards, Tarek Regards, Daniel Bernier On 2019-09-16, 12:44 PM, "Ron Bonica" > wrote: Good idea!! Juniper Business Use Only From: Tarek Saad Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 11:59 AM To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; Ron Bonica ; Robert Raszuk Cc: SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions Hi all, A possible way to avoid domain wide scope of PSSI, would be to encode a per= node ID within the PSSI (per node namespace of Service IDs). This allows the node parsing the DOH to identify PSSI(s) that needs to be i= nvoked locally and to resolve the Service ID within its node scope. The per= node ID can be a SRV6+ short SID that is instantiated locally on the node. So, a PSSI =3D Short-SID.SE1 DOH can contain: Short-SID1.SE1 Short-SID2.SE2 Etc. Regards, Tarek From: spring > on b= ehalf of "Bernier, Daniel" > Date: Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:03 AM To: Ron Bonica >, Robert Raszuk > Cc: SPRING WG >, 6man <6man@ietf.or= g> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions Hi Ron, If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert=92s example wh= ich offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain-wide PSSI d= efining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need= FW, then I need another domain-wide PSSI for only FW. In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations which mu= st be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PSSI X for = FW while vendor B think=92s its DPI). Thx Dan B On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, "ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" on behalf of rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote: Robert, In your email, you ask how I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Se= rvice Instruction (PSSI).. In SRv6+: - The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE probl= ems - The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewal= ling, sampling, DPI) This leaves the following questions to be answered: - How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email= ? - Given another example, explain how PSSI works? Which question would you like me to tackle first? Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM To: Ron Bonica > Cc: SPRING WG >; 6man <6man@ietf.or= g> Subject: Per segment service instructions Dear Ron, I have read yet one more draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Dest= ination Option type - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) describe= d in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt I have one technical question regarding it. Imagine I have following topology - drawing only what is relevant to the qu= estion: PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P2 - - SE2 - - P3 - - PE2 When packet enters the network PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to ex= ecute following following functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End = 2 (SE2): SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. >From reading the draft I think the answer is that you mandated the segment = end functions in SRv6+ to have domain-wide significance such that the funct= ion itself contains not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wi= de significance the location of the instruction to execute it on. So far so good ... Flow-A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement= . When packet enters SE1 Destination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs a= re attempted to get executed ! Both instructions are tried but only one is = known so only one get's executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. Not sure if eveyone would be ok with such model to read and attempt to exec= ute instructions which are not for a given end segment but let's assume som= e may accept it. But now how unfortunate it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flo= w B the requirements are opposite: SE1 - When packet is routed out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end n= ode is no more then 2 hops away. SE2 - When packet is routed out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G a= nd up. Well what do you - simple - you allocate another two domain wide functions = and encode it in the packet at PSSI DOH on PE1. But if my description matches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! sta= te in the network which is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its fun= ctions into completely different headers. I don't know about others but I think we went in the past via multiple atte= mpts to put any per flow state into the large network and it all failed whe= n faced scale. Also SR specifically in its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing = is "maintaining per-flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain= ." Kind regards, Robert. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR19MB3415C64F7051394C38877E1EFC8F0BYAPR19MB3415namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dan,

 

Inline..=

 

From: "Bernier, Dani= el" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Date: Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 10:30 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, Tarek Saad <tsaad.net= @gmail.com>, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: RE: [spring] Per segment service instructions

 

Tarek,

 

My feeling is it kind of defeats the purpose. The value prop of SRv= 6+ was the separation of forwarding (LOCATOR) from service (FUNCTION) i= n different EH. Now to avoid having domain-wide alignment of PSSI values, you would re-introduce a SID in the 32bit sectio= n of PSSI to make it unique again.

[TS]: indeed, topol= ogical and service SID separation is maintained in different EHs. The idea = was to limit the scope of a PSSI to per node by optionally namespacing it (= encoding a node ID).

 

Regards,=

Tarek

 

Regards,

Daniel Bernier

 

 

 

On 2019-09-16, 12:44 PM,= "Ron Bonica" <rbonica@= juniper.net> wrote:

 

 

Good idea!!

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Tarek Saad = <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 11:59 AM
To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Ron= Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>= ;
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions

 

Hi all,

 

A possible way to avoid domain wide scope of PSSI, would be to enc= ode a per node ID within the PSSI (per node namespace of Service IDs).

This allows the node parsing the DOH to identify PSSI(s) that need= s to be invoked locally and to resolve the Service ID within its node scope= . The per node ID can be a SRV6+ short SID that is instantiated locally on the node.

 

So, a PSSI =3D Short-SID.SE1

 

DOH can contain:

Short-SID1.SE1

Short-SID2.SE2

Etc.

 

Regards,

Tarek

 

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on beha= lf of "Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Date: Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 1:03 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org= >, 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Per segment service instructions

 

Hi Ron,

 

If PSSI provide non-routing services such as SE1 from Robert=92s e= xample which offers DPI, FW and Packet Replication then, I need a domain-wi= de PSSI defining DPI + FW + Sampling but if somewhere else in my network I just need FW, then I need another domain= -wide PSSI for only FW.

In that model, I will end up with and endless list of permutations= which must be agreed upon to ensure interop (i.e. vendor A cannot use a PS= SI X for FW while vendor B think=92s its DPI).

Thx

Dan B

 

 

 

On 2019-09-13, 2:10 PM, = "ipv6 on behalf of Ron Bonica" <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rbonica=3D40junip= er.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

Robert,

 

In your email, you ask h= ow I would solve a TE problem with a Per Segment Service Instruction (PSSI)= .. In SRv6+:

 

-          The CRH and the SIDs that it contains are used to solve TE problems<= o:p>

-          The PSSI is used too provide non-routing services (e.g., firewalling= , sampling, DPI)

 

This leaves the followin= g questions to be answered:

 

-          How would I solve the TE problem that you describe in your email?

-          Given another example, explain how PSSI works?

 

Which question would you= like me to tackle first?

 

    =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp; Ron

 

 

From: Robert Rasz= uk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 8:45 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org= >; 6man <6man@ietf.org> Subject: Per segment service instructions

 

Dear Ron,

 

I have read yet one more= draft from the SRv6+ package defining another Destination Option type = - this time Per Segment Service Instruction(s) described in draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt

 

I have one technical que= stion regarding it. 

 

Imagine I have following= topology - drawing only what is relevant to the question: =

 

PE1 - - P1 - - SE1 - - P= 2 - -  SE2 - - P3 - - PE2

 

When packet enters the n= etwork PE1 is instructed to program my flow A to execute following followin= g functions on Segment End 1 (SE1) and Segment End 2 (SE2):

 

SE1 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE1 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up

 

SE2 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE2 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 ho= ps away. 

 

From reading the draft I= think the answer is that you mandated the segment end functions in SRv6= 3; to have domain-wide significance such that the function itself contains = not only the instruction but also as it is of domain-wide significance the location of the instruction to execute = it on. 

 

So far so good ... Flow-= A get's CRH and PSSI encoding the above requirement. 

 

When packet enters SE1 D= estination Options preceding RH is read and PSSIs are attempted to get exec= uted ! Both instructions are tried but only one is known so only one get's = executed on SE1. Same story on SE2. 

 

Not sure if eveyone woul= d be ok with such model to read and attempt to execute instructions which a= re not for a given end segment but let's assume some may accept it. 

 

But now how unfortunate = it may sound PE1 is receving the flow-B and for flow B the requirements are= opposite: 

 

SE1 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE1 make sure that path to segment end node is no more then 2 ho= ps away. 

 

SE2 - When packet is rou= ted out of SE2 consider only interfaces of bw 10G and up. <= /p>

 

Well what do you - simpl= e - you allocate another two domain wide functions and encode it in the pac= ket at PSSI DOH on PE1. 

 

But if my description ma= tches the plan you now end up with per flow !!! state in the network which = is the price to pay for splitting SIDs with its functions into completely d= ifferent headers. 

 

I don't know about other= s but I think we went in the past via multiple attempts to put any per flow= state into the large network and it all failed when faced scale. 

 

Also SR specifically in = its architecture RFC8402 says that segment routing is "maintaining per= -flow state only at the ingress node(s) to the SR domain."<= /p>

 

Kind regards,=

Robert.

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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[111.69.206.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a17sm3579385pfi.178.2019.09.17.13.33.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Sep 2019 13:33:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Ron Bonica , Mark Smith Cc: Tom Herbert , SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" References: <89AA4FDD-9812-48CD-8473-6E38E336E57F@cisco.com> <53236a02-a736-b40f-d885-78e0036af416@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <77c06fa8-3f15-f697-8293-b12a48be18a4@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:33:40 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 20:33:47 -0000 Ron, You wrote: > Isn't this [the Opaque header] also creating an opportunity for IETF WGs to bypass IANA, creating their own registry, likely run badly? More than that, it's creating an opportunity for operators to bypass IETF standards as well as IANA. Isn't that the essence of this whole discussion? They can do it anyway, but defining the code point at least makes it possible for firewalls to discard such traffic if it escapes. Hence my comment about draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering. Regards Brian From nobody Tue Sep 17 18:13:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98FB12007A; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YSgGe-SohAg7; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 18:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B08312006F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 18:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id z26so4881573oto.1; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 18:13:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6GDYMcTdXUwQipbtytT2xx2oFccKGJQL7h7IrG0xq8o=; b=YekMx5/2BkpEOFObQJn/5zlEHGNYz7Kjtpkcimha53i+rOaY4Z+qiUVJR09gBjdFXQ 410Zad/UjnoVHUhHVcuxUc80Cvhnp65rQjxoFffshB3E4jVCtlLt2+/r0pGwbAjfU6Dp p+BgfnET/CSp6N3g7lv3nH3t/ZSqMM5PyPP/UtcWV6UtSP3nJ/NAaOuwS3Lu29CmSS8P j8tStd0bhenKoY4RWmwnt0Of+6fEaUibU9O8FIA898wsBCcboks99vDh/bv+6/rBtYeh gBFv9bBnfeY5xVAwYovGTkdG6og8gaJkWAFaSwFVQpTtAGuUjvB+qaey39XCcmIR0Y6W VEIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6GDYMcTdXUwQipbtytT2xx2oFccKGJQL7h7IrG0xq8o=; b=VCSHeUqt+PcHojsGT1dDk1iiY8oqDcYPn030mb7zrG5wP6xOIWgOg2tnrCALhw6CE1 tpV6s3ykqhAM7yESl5RSbWWD2bKBQwyG5s0TjmnHnGlOPPVizwSXw0NoRg44Bmaxk6V2 Ip8EQGBBNogppBlg84KAue2hpkcsywNUpsmBYO7c2wXO4w/N7tJZm/FyCaenTiU7cb+l 7Ng6jmvWcp/PyzAGWtJAOVgv4At7blOluUU4xvp0O+gMaDQ5ssavCT/eiW32jnVc1Ngc /ClMtlz2fqiIoVQ348Es1j6RpwOVmRcXyX7mqMcBV66OIsI4SWBY5p6TvsJLyngZ2+IU ZaVg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXywUwUd9IYl+1S+ZW+wwRHzKhOVqEOBQJX5H6hhDov5/3OHxNT rOAceTeO79cYzDSlY95Qgq2mVjCCYxeNPTqD2h4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzQV18yokWM2CWk3Ctp5lp3gq5qVoEpYndgNoja22+HwjoskPcqxvlVTrvvdY5j1S73Df3mcq42QLxvogpXt5E= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6c86:: with SMTP id c6mr1386769otr.153.1568769208352; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 18:13:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <89AA4FDD-9812-48CD-8473-6E38E336E57F@cisco.com> <53236a02-a736-b40f-d885-78e0036af416@gmail.com> <77c06fa8-3f15-f697-8293-b12a48be18a4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <77c06fa8-3f15-f697-8293-b12a48be18a4@gmail.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 11:13:18 +1000 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Ron Bonica , Tom Herbert , SPRING WG , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006605790592c98ba9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 01:13:31 -0000 --0000000000006605790592c98ba9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, 06:33 Brian E Carpenter, wrote: > Ron, > > You wrote: > > > Isn't this [the Opaque header] also creating an opportunity for IETF WGs > to bypass IANA, creating their own registry, likely run badly? > > More than that, it's creating an opportunity for operators to bypass IETF > standards as well as IANA. > > Isn't that the essence of this whole discussion? > > They can do it anyway, but defining the code point at least makes it > possible for firewalls to discard such traffic if it escapes. Hence my > comment about draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering. > The word "opaque" means (from Google "meaning opaque"), "not able to be seen through; not transparent" If a protocol is opaque or not transparent to the IETF then that would mean somebody else owns it; it's their property rather than the IETFs. So somebody else's protocol being referred to by the IETF would fit the definition of "proprietary": "relating to an owner or ownership" So I think Proprietary would be a much more accurate name for this option if it were to go ahead. I'd much rather it didn't so we had a transparent and open IETF protocol. Regards, Mark. > Regards > Brian > --0000000000006605790592c98ba9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, 06:33 Brian E Carpenter, <brian.e.carpent= er@gmail.com> wrote:
Ron,
You wrote:

> Isn't this [the Opaque header] also creating an opportunity for IE= TF WGs to bypass IANA, creating their own registry, likely run badly?

More than that, it's creating an opportunity for operators to bypass IE= TF standards as well as IANA.

Isn't that the essence of this whole discussion?

They can do it anyway, but defining the code point at least makes it possib= le for firewalls to discard such traffic if it escapes. Hence my comment ab= out draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering.


The word= "opaque" means (from Google "meaning opaque"),

"not able to be seen through; not transpa= rent"

If= a protocol is opaque or not transparent to the IETF then that would mean s= omebody else owns it; it's their property rather than the IETFs.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
So somebody else's protoco= l being referred to by the IETF would fit the definition of "proprieta= ry":

"relating to an owner or= ownership"


So I think Proprietary would be a much more= accurate name for this option if it were to go ahead.

I'd much rather it didn't so we had = a transparent and open IETF protocol.

Regards,
Mark.
=

Regards
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian
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<65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 08:56:57 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" Cc: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:57:15 -0000 On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) wr= ote: > > Hi Ron. > > I summarized my argument as follows: > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you = will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.=E2=80= =9D > > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thanks. > Darren, How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6? Tom > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second t= o saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." > > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" requires= ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. > > Thanks > Darren > > > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Hi Darren, > > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: > > > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > > > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straight= . If so, please read on. > > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that preced= es the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB s= earches, at most. > > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: > > > The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require onl= y one.) > The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based d= evices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any per= segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the = PSSI. That is why it is optional.) > > > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. > > So, you might now argue that: > > > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > > > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has two = relevant resources: > > > A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per second > Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per secon= d > > > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate the= line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform has= a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But= it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not = sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. > > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report on = the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provide= details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we = thought that performance was going to be sub-optimal. > > You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Are y= ou sure that this is correct? > > = Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM > To: Ron Bonica > Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG ;= 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad > Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding > > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in the= number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementations = at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. > > Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at li= ne rate? > You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re the o= nly implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am= curious. > > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you w= ill not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. > > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary leng= th DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive. > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in a= ny ASIC or NP. > > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple ide= ntifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. > 1 - lookup destination address > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. > 4 - lookup new destination address > > Compare this with SRv6. > 1 - lookup destination address > 2 - lookup new destination address > > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, these = technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not go= away. > > Darren > > > > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Sep 18 16:40:38 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C681200B3 for ; 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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 16:40:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dirk Steinberg Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:40:22 +0200 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e2a4540592dc5c40" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 23:40:37 -0000 --000000000000e2a4540592dc5c40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP core). - Dirk On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) > wrote: > > > > Hi Ron. > > > > I summarized my argument as follows: > > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties yo= u > will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.=E2= =80=9D > > > > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thanks. > > > > Darren, > > How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6? > > Tom > > > > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second > to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." > > > > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" > requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. > > > > Thanks > > Darren > > > > > > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: > > > > Hi Darren, > > > > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: > > > > > > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > > SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches > > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > > > > > > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me > straight. If so, please read on. > > > > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that > precedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires fo= ur > FIB searches, at most. > > > > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: > > > > > > The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require > only one.) > > The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based > devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any = per > segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the > PSSI. That is why it is optional.) > > > > > > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. > > > > So, you might now argue that: > > > > > > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > > SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches > > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > > > > > > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has tw= o > relevant resources: > > > > > > A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per second > > Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per > second > > > > > > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate > the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platfor= m > has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed= . > But it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is= not > sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. > > > > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report o= n > the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provi= de > details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we= thought > that performance was going to be sub-optimal. > > > > You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Are= you sure > that this is correct? > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) > > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM > > To: Ron Bonica > > Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG < > spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk = ; > Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad > > Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding > > > > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in > the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor > implementations at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASI= Cs. > > > > Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at = line rate? > > You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re the= only > implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am > curious. > > > > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you > will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. > > > > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary > length DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensi= ve. > > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. > > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in > any ASIC or NP. > > > > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple > identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. > > 1 - lookup destination address > > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. > > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. > > 4 - lookup new destination address > > > > Compare this with SRv6. > > 1 - lookup destination address > > 2 - lookup new destination address > > > > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, thes= e > technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not = go > away. > > > > Darren > > > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000e2a4540592dc5c40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding= (use case: SP core).

- Dirk

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019= at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herb= ertland.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com> wr= ote:
>
> Hi Ron.
>
> I summarized my argument as follows:
> "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalt= ies you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookup= s.=E2=80=9D
>
> You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+"= ;.=C2=A0 Thanks.
>

Darren,

How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6?

Tom


> You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per = second to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate.&quo= t;
>
> Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+&q= uot; requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6.
>
> Thanks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Darren
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Darren,
>
> I think that your argument can be summarized as follows:
>
>
> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
> SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches
> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed
>
>
> Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me strai= ght. If so, please read on.
>
> First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that pre= cedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FI= B searches, at most.
>
> Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case:
>
>
> The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require = only one.)
> The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-base= d devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any = per segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore t= he PSSI. That is why it is optional.)
>
>
> So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches.
>
> So, you might now argue that:
>
>
> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
> SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches
> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed
>
>
> Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has t= wo relevant resources:
>
>
> A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per secon= d
> Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per se= cond
>
>
> So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate = the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform = has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. = But it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is n= ot sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed.
>
> In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report = on the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot prov= ide details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if = we thought that performance was going to be sub-optimal.
>
> You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Ar= e you sure that this is correct?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron
>
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM
> To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
> Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca&= gt;; xiechf@chi= natelecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Rob S= hakir <robjs@googl= e.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
> Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding
>
> Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in = the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementatio= ns at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs.
>
> Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at= line rate?
> You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times.=C2=A0 Since you=E2=80=99= re the only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testi= ng, I am curious.
>
> Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties yo= u will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.
>
> Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary l= ength DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive.=
> - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs i= n any ASIC or NP.
>
> Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple = identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node.
> 1 - lookup destination address
> 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options.
> 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label.
> 4 - lookup new destination address
>
> Compare this with SRv6.
> 1 - lookup destination address
> 2 - lookup new destination address
>
> While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, the= se technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not= go away.
>
> Darren
>
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf= .org> wrote:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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([2600:1003:b022:a967:c866:5abb:b70e:7a0b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g194sm3711066qke.46.2019.09.18.16.56.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Sep 2019 16:56:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-BF2E7900-2F8D-4EC2-8185-9E1C5E983B71 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 19:56:11 -0400 Cc: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1AD1C187-31A8-4372-BBB9-13D4E17B2CC1@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 23:56:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail-BF2E7900-2F8D-4EC2-8185-9E1C5E983B71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daren This is from 2019 CISCO Live presentation=20 https://www.ciscolive.com/c/dam/r/ciscolive/us/docs/2019/pdf/BRKMPL-2132.pdf= IETF Standardization =E2=80=A2 The work started by Cisco in 2014 =E2=80=A2 Significant industry collaboration =E2=80=A2 There are over SRv6 50 IETF documents =E2=80=A2 The work spans over 13 working groups =E2=80=A2 SRv6 header has been last called =E2=80=A2 Network Programming is a Working Group document =E2=80=A2 Multiven= dor Consensus #CLUS =C2=A9 2019 Cisco and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved. Cisco P= ublic =20 Cisco Deployments =E2=80=A2 Softbank =E2=80=A2 Cisco Supports SoftBank on First SRv6 Deployment in Prep for 5G =E2= =80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network carrying live traffic =E2=80=A2 Iliad =E2=80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network to provide a new mobile offering in Italy =E2= =80=A2 The SRv6 backbone is based on Cisco ASR 9000 and NCS 5500 =E2=80=A2 A= ll the cell site routers are SRv6 capable Iliad's NodeBox =E2=80=A2 China Telecom =E2=80=A2 Multi-city SRv6 network Gyan Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 18, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrot= e: >=20 > Hi Ron. =20 >=20 > I summarized my argument as follows: > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you w= ill not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.=E2=80=9D= >=20 > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thanks. >=20 > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to= saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." >=20 > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" requires A= SICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. >=20 > Thanks > Darren >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Darren,=20 >> =20 >> I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: >> =20 >> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >> SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches >> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >> =20 >> Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straight= . If so, please read on. >> =20 >> First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that preced= es the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB se= arches, at most. >> =20 >> Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: >> =20 >> The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require onl= y one.) >> The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based d= evices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any per s= egment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the PSS= I. That is why it is optional.) >> =20 >> So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. >> =20 >> So, you might now argue that: >> =20 >> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >> SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches >> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >> =20 >> Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has two r= elevant resources: >> =20 >> A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per second >> Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per secon= d >> =20 >> So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate the= line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform has a= sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But it= =E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not suff= iciently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. >> =20 >> In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report on t= he state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provide d= etails, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we tho= ught that performance was going to be sub-optimal. >> =20 >> You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Are y= ou sure that this is correct? >> =20 >> = Ron >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Juniper Business Use Only >> From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) =20 >> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM >> To: Ron Bonica >> Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG ; 6= man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad >> Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding >> =20 >> Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in the= number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementations a= t line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. >>=20 >> Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at li= ne rate?=20 >> You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re the o= nly implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am c= urious. >>=20 >> Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you w= ill not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. >>=20 >> Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary leng= th DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive. >> - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. >> - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in a= ny ASIC or NP. >>=20 >> Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple ide= ntifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. >> 1 - lookup destination address >> 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. >> 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. >> 4 - lookup new destination address >>=20 >> Compare this with SRv6. >> 1 - lookup destination address >> 2 - lookup new destination address >>=20 >> While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, these t= echnical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not go a= way. >>=20 >> Darren >> =20 >>=20 >> On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-BF2E7900-2F8D-4EC2-8185-9E1C5E983B71 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Daren

This is from 2019 CISCO Live presentation=  


<= div>IETF Standardization
=E2=80=A2 The work started by Cisco in 20= 14
=E2=80=A2 Significant industry collaboration
=E2=80=A2= There are over SRv6 50 IETF documents
=E2=80=A2 The work spans ov= er 13 working groups
=E2=80=A2 SRv6 header has been last called
=E2=80=A2 Network Programming is a Working Group document =E2=80=A2 M= ultivendor Consensus
 #CLUS =C2=A9 2019 Cisco and/or its affi= liates. All rights reserved. Cisco Public
  
<= div>Cisco Deployments
=E2=80=A2 Softbank
=E2=80=A2 Cisco= Supports SoftBank on First SRv6 Deployment in Prep for 5G =E2=80=A2 Nationw= ide SRv6 network carrying live traffic
=E2=80=A2 Iliad
=E2= =80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network to provide a new mobile offering in Italy =E2= =80=A2 The SRv6 backbone is based on Cisco ASR 9000 and NCS 5500 =E2=80=A2 A= ll the cell site routers are SRv6 capable Iliad's NodeBox
=E2=80=A2= China Telecom
=E2=80=A2 Multi-city SRv6 network
<= br>
Gyan

Sent f= rom my iPhone

On Sep 18, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Darren D= ukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

Hi Ron.  

I summarized my argument as follows:
"Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance p= enalties you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lo= okups.=E2=80=9D

You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+= ".  Thanks.

You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets= per second to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate.= "

Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The com= plexity of "SRv6+" requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6.<= /div>

Thanks
  Darren


On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

Hi Darren, 
 
I think that your argument can be summarized as follows:
 
    =
  • SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
  • SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches
  • Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed=
 
Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straight. I= f so, please read on.
 
First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that precedes t= he CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB search= es, at most.
 
Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case:
 
    =
  • The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require only o= ne.)
  • The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based devi= ces, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any per seg= ment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the PSSI.= That is why it is optional.)
 
So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches.
 
So, you might now argue that:
 
    =
  • SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
  • SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches
  • Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed=
 
Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has two rel= evant resources:
 
    =
  • A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per second
  • Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per second
 
So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate the li= ne cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform has a s= ufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But it=E2= =80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not sufficiently capable, of course, it will no= t forward at line speed.
 
In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report on the= state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provide det= ails, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we thoug= ht that performance was going to be sub-optimal.
=
 
You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Are you s= ure that this is correct?
 
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =              &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;  Ron
 
 
 
 
 
Juniper Business Use Only<= o:p class=3D"">
From: Da= rren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com> 
Sent: Mo= nday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM
To: Ron B= onica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Mark= Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; EXT= - daniel.bernier@bell.ca = ;<daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding
 
Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in t= he number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementa= tions at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs.

Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at l= ine rate? 
You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times.  Since you=E2=80=99r= e the only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or te= sting, I am curious.

Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you= will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.<= br class=3D"">
Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary le= ngth DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensi= ve.
- It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads.
- It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in= any ASIC or NP.

Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple i= dentifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node.
1 - lookup destination address
2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options.
3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label.
4 - lookup new destination address

Compare this with SRv6.
1 - lookup destination address
2 - lookup new destination address

While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, thes= e technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will n= ot go away.

Darren

 

On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

--------= ------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/ipv6
----------------------------------------= ----------------------------
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([2600:1003:b022:a967:c866:5abb:b70e:7a0b]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j5sm3430899qkd.56.2019.09.18.17.01.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:01:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-A4CEE7E6-9659-4D6C-A649-93BF001D0E31 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: <1AD1C187-31A8-4372-BBB9-13D4E17B2CC1@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 20:01:40 -0400 Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <1AD1C187-31A8-4372-BBB9-13D4E17B2CC1@gmail.com> To: Gyan Mishra Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 00:01:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail-A4CEE7E6-9659-4D6C-A649-93BF001D0E31 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This CISCO LIVE dives deeper into Cisco=E2=80=99s SRv6 implementation. https://www.ciscolive.com/c/dam/r/ciscolive/us/docs/2019/pdf/BRKSPG-3001.pdf= They go through all the SRV6 programmability End SID and SR insertion. I have to read through to see if Cisco=E2=80=99s Ti-LFA implementation requi= res so many EH=E2=80=99s Gyan Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 18, 2019, at 7:56 PM, Gyan Mishra wrote: >=20 > Daren >=20 > This is from 2019 CISCO Live presentation=20 >=20 > https://www.ciscolive.com/c/dam/r/ciscolive/us/docs/2019/pdf/BRKMPL-2132.p= df >=20 > IETF Standardization > =E2=80=A2 The work started by Cisco in 2014 > =E2=80=A2 Significant industry collaboration > =E2=80=A2 There are over SRv6 50 IETF documents > =E2=80=A2 The work spans over 13 working groups > =E2=80=A2 SRv6 header has been last called > =E2=80=A2 Network Programming is a Working Group document =E2=80=A2 Multiv= endor Consensus > #CLUS =C2=A9 2019 Cisco and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved. Cisco= Public > =20 > Cisco Deployments > =E2=80=A2 Softbank > =E2=80=A2 Cisco Supports SoftBank on First SRv6 Deployment in Prep for 5G =E2= =80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network carrying live traffic > =E2=80=A2 Iliad > =E2=80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network to provide a new mobile offering in Ital= y =E2=80=A2 The SRv6 backbone is based on Cisco ASR 9000 and NCS 5500 =E2=80= =A2 All the cell site routers are SRv6 capable Iliad's NodeBox > =E2=80=A2 China Telecom > =E2=80=A2 Multi-city SRv6 network >=20 > Gyan >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Sep 18, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wro= te: >>=20 >> Hi Ron. =20 >>=20 >> I summarized my argument as follows: >> "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you w= ill not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.=E2=80=9D= >>=20 >> You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thanks. >>=20 >> You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second t= o saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." >>=20 >> Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" requires= ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. >>=20 >> Thanks >> Darren >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Darren,=20 >>> =20 >>> I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: >>> =20 >>> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >>> SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches >>> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >>> =20 >>> Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straigh= t. If so, please read on. >>> =20 >>> First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that prece= des the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB s= earches, at most. >>> =20 >>> Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: >>> =20 >>> The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require on= ly one.) >>> The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based d= evices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any per s= egment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the PSS= I. That is why it is optional.) >>> =20 >>> So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. >>> =20 >>> So, you might now argue that: >>> =20 >>> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >>> SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches >>> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >>> =20 >>> Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has two= relevant resources: >>> =20 >>> A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per second >>> Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per seco= nd >>> =20 >>> So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate th= e line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform has= a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But i= t=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not suf= ficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. >>> =20 >>> In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report on= the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provide= details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we t= hought that performance was going to be sub-optimal. >>> =20 >>> You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Are y= ou sure that this is correct? >>> =20 >>> = Ron >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> =20 >>> Juniper Business Use Only >>> From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) =20 >>> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM >>> To: Ron Bonica >>> Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG ;= 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad >>> Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding >>> =20 >>> Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in th= e number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementations a= t line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. >>>=20 >>> Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at l= ine rate?=20 >>> You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re the o= nly implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am c= urious. >>>=20 >>> Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you w= ill not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. >>>=20 >>> Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary len= gth DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive. >>> - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. >>> - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in a= ny ASIC or NP. >>>=20 >>> Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple id= entifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. >>> 1 - lookup destination address >>> 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. >>> 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. >>> 4 - lookup new destination address >>>=20 >>> Compare this with SRv6. >>> 1 - lookup destination address >>> 2 - lookup new destination address >>>=20 >>> While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, these= technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not go= away. >>>=20 >>> Darren >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-A4CEE7E6-9659-4D6C-A649-93BF001D0E31 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This CISCO LIVE dives deeper= into Cisco=E2=80=99s SRv6 implementation.



I have to read through to s= ee if Cisco=E2=80=99s Ti-LFA implementation requires so many EH=E2=80=99s

Gyan

Sent from my iPhone
<= meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
Daren

Th= is is from 2019 CISCO Live presentation 


IETF Standardization
=E2= =80=A2 The work started by Cisco in 2014
=E2=80=A2 Significant ind= ustry collaboration
=E2=80=A2 There are over SRv6 50 IETF document= s
=E2=80=A2 The work spans over 13 working groups
=E2=80= =A2 SRv6 header has been last called
=E2=80=A2 Network Programming= is a Working Group document =E2=80=A2 Multivendor Consensus
 = ;#CLUS =C2=A9 2019 Cisco and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved. Cisco P= ublic
  
Cisco Deployments
=E2=80= =A2 Softbank
=E2=80=A2 Cisco Supports SoftBank on First SRv6 Deplo= yment in Prep for 5G =E2=80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network carrying live traffic=
=E2=80=A2 Iliad
=E2=80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network to pr= ovide a new mobile offering in Italy =E2=80=A2 The SRv6 backbone is based on= Cisco ASR 9000 and NCS 5500 =E2=80=A2 All the cell site routers are SRv6 ca= pable Iliad's NodeBox
=E2=80=A2 China Telecom
=E2=80=A2 M= ulti-city SRv6 network

Gyan

Sent from my iPhone
<= br>On Sep 18, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Ron.  

I summarized my argument as follows:
"Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance p= enalties you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lo= okups.=E2=80=9D

You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+= ".  Thanks.

You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets= per second to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate.= "

Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The com= plexity of "SRv6+" requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6.<= /div>

Thanks
  Darren


On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

Hi Darren, 
 
I think that your argument can be summarized as follows:
 
    =
  • SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
  • SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches
  • Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed=
 
Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straight. I= f so, please read on.
 
First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that precedes t= he CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB search= es, at most.
 
Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case:
 
    =
  • The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require only o= ne.)
  • The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based devi= ces, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any per seg= ment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the PSSI.= That is why it is optional.)
 
So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches.
 
So, you might now argue that:
 
    =
  • SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
  • SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches
  • Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed=
 
Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has two rel= evant resources:
 
    =
  • A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per second
  • Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per second
 
So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate the li= ne cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform has a s= ufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But it=E2= =80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not sufficiently capable, of course, it will no= t forward at line speed.
 
In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report on the= state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provide det= ails, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we thoug= ht that performance was going to be sub-optimal.
=
 
You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Are you s= ure that this is correct?
 
            &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;            =              &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;  Ron
 
 
 
 
 
Juniper Business Use Only<= o:p class=3D"">
From: Da= rren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com> 
Sent: Mo= nday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM
To: Ron B= onica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Mark= Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; EXT= - daniel.bernier@bell.ca = ;<daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding
 
Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in t= he number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementa= tions at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs.

Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at l= ine rate? 
You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times.  Since you=E2=80=99r= e the only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or te= sting, I am curious.

Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you= will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.<= br class=3D"">
Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary le= ngth DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensi= ve.
- It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads.
- It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in= any ASIC or NP.

Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple i= dentifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node.
1 - lookup destination address
2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options.
3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label.
4 - lookup new destination address

Compare this with SRv6.
1 - lookup destination address
2 - lookup new destination address

While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, thes= e technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will n= ot go away.

Darren

 

On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

--------= ------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/ipv6
----------------------------------------= ----------------------------
=
= --Apple-Mail-A4CEE7E6-9659-4D6C-A649-93BF001D0E31-- From nobody Wed Sep 18 17:33:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3B112011A; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:33:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x6KRZ7KOC4xm; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 916F81200B2; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id 41so1499203oti.12; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:33:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LmIlD8FjKm7YK94sYBVAGHYzfmNvlLIn6zR5eVyDhko=; b=idO2xvQnMW9tHjMMlvcnjP/DxBVyGJp/vZl1eM10qUYF8eCgVjWz3aA+ku4y13me88 YKspchbl5M+w8VYVEj/07FGRFDvDKziMITiUqvsfujo1ZZKuI8d4zEjYOxzyzBsC4xVE spQxwbWXgf/33aIdrQRIFLyLwdff2iaWtqF/VG9whriZ4GT8sTPx24S8ADlYICERAn7v UyDUqtr8hS16mS1uDP6jm7WkaxvVEibjmyTpmfUdqLJLQWwMq+/rQELP2QzEtUQ0Ky+z rUquaoyPK1+yXRbGqAIpHfX4ZbJQS0bMa6P3IzDmhZzhd2QPt1lVKx/6HCf+g5T92R1U pDTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LmIlD8FjKm7YK94sYBVAGHYzfmNvlLIn6zR5eVyDhko=; b=in5mG9cKns/wmqZJT73hIFapMkus/bhZP9+EVKVGIlrvGmgK1XSFz8U2yzrhh5BnwP 7Lamflq1muzOSaKLncDRMSxVZmQX3girtxKGJy7+ME+qWyFEu8ItgdLrxNkB5CSXwhKG qo8fR39CvTPWg1tukJq6gTxLPWH5Y8elmIRK/sb8nbkpgxuJW5ggQLE+He8iO571dPK4 DIa3UDCxx6ScVgJHPcNymsKG1TYkdxSj7uX0PuWl3PW3YKt7bQ1g6Pgku3hDLd6P/7Uj smFwQg8aZrQJ30saQadmo4Puzil9KL91KGsbNI0fTeWlQDOJZo+X2qSQ9ujy0ZrZXcka UXag== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWYWRkSKbjW7WpZ/q9lLZmXAhaS4CUTWughEBa6O+qUj5JZrkvP 1SL4xLGycKxVe6Rdxl0cxKhDEXBhFIxUW5j3vi0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz26WAdhcf6+fQ75OBChXERfsQd0JxJo9NPCPClZmI7E+vsW2GiCIiUkIkuvlJORJXpk6v6Xxs2M7gcCwKgeEc= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6c86:: with SMTP id c6mr5278224otr.153.1568853186912; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:33:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 10:32:54 +1000 Message-ID: To: Dirk Steinberg Cc: Tom Herbert , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9271a0592dd1816" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 00:33:10 -0000 --000000000000e9271a0592dd1816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 09:40 Dirk Steinberg, wrote: > SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP > core). > +1 The Internet scales because complexity is pushed towards the edges. > - Dirk > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Ron. >> > >> > I summarized my argument as follows: >> > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties >> you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups= .=E2=80=9D >> > >> > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thanks= . >> > >> >> Darren, >> >> How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6? >> >> Tom >> >> >> > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per secon= d >> to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." >> > >> > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" >> requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. >> > >> > Thanks >> > Darren >> > >> > >> > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >> > >> > Hi Darren, >> > >> > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: >> > >> > >> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >> > SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches >> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >> > >> > >> > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me >> straight. If so, please read on. >> > >> > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that >> precedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires f= our >> FIB searches, at most. >> > >> > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: >> > >> > >> > The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require >> only one.) >> > The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-base= d >> devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any= per >> segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore th= e >> PSSI. That is why it is optional.) >> > >> > >> > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. >> > >> > So, you might now argue that: >> > >> > >> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >> > SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches >> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >> > >> > >> > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has >> two relevant resources: >> > >> > >> > A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per secon= d >> > Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per >> second >> > >> > >> > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate >> the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platfo= rm >> has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line spee= d. >> But it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC i= s not >> sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. >> > >> > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report >> on the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot p= rovide >> details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if w= e thought >> that performance was going to be sub-optimal. >> > >> > You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Ar= e you >> sure that this is correct? >> > >> > >> Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> > From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) >> > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM >> > To: Ron Bonica >> > Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca = < >> daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG < >> spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; >> Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad >> > Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding >> > >> > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in >> the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor >> implementations at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor AS= ICs. >> > >> > Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at= line rate? >> > You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re th= e only >> implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am >> curious. >> > >> > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties yo= u >> will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. >> > >> > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary >> length DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expens= ive. >> > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. >> > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs i= n >> any ASIC or NP. >> > >> > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple >> identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. >> > 1 - lookup destination address >> > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. >> > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. >> > 4 - lookup new destination address >> > >> > Compare this with SRv6. >> > 1 - lookup destination address >> > 2 - lookup new destination address >> > >> > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, >> these technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI wi= ll >> not go away. >> > >> > Darren >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica > 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf..org <40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000e9271a0592dd1816 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 09:40 Dirk Steinberg, <dirk@lapishills.com> wrote:
SRv6 does not require TLV = processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP core).

+1

The Internet scales because complexity is= pushed towards the edges.


- Dirk

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herb= ert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (d= dukes) <ddukes@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Ron.
>
> I summarized my argument as follows:
> "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalt= ies you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookup= s.=E2=80=9D
>
> You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+"= ;.=C2=A0 Thanks.
>

Darren,

How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6?

Tom


> You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per = second to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate.&quo= t;
>
> Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+&q= uot; requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6.
>
> Thanks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Darren
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net&g= t; wrote:
>
> Hi Darren,
>
> I think that your argument can be summarized as follows:
>
>
> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
> SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches
> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed
>
>
> Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me strai= ght. If so, please read on.
>
> First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that pre= cedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FI= B searches, at most.
>
> Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case:
>
>
> The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require = only one.)
> The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-base= d devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any = per segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore t= he PSSI. That is why it is optional.)
>
>
> So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches.
>
> So, you might now argue that:
>
>
> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
> SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches
> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed
>
>
> Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has t= wo relevant resources:
>
>
> A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per secon= d
> Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per se= cond
>
>
> So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate = the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform = has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. = But it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is n= ot sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed.
>
> In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report = on the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot prov= ide details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if = we thought that performance was going to be sub-optimal.
>
> You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Ar= e you sure that this is correct?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ron
>
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM
> To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
> Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; EXT - dan= iel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@= chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.or= g>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@g= oogle.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
> Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding
>
> Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in = the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementatio= ns at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs.
>
> Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at= line rate?
> You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times.=C2=A0 Since you=E2=80=99= re the only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testi= ng, I am curious.
>
> Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties yo= u will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.
>
> Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary l= ength DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive.=
> - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs i= n any ASIC or NP.
>
> Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple = identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node.
> 1 - lookup destination address
> 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options.
> 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label.
> 4 - lookup new destination address
>
> Compare this with SRv6.
> 1 - lookup destination address
> 2 - lookup new destination address
>
> While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, the= se technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not= go away.
>
> Darren
>
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40jun= iper.net@dmarc.ietf..org> wrote:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> = ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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spr= ing@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /a>
--000000000000e9271a0592dd1816-- From nobody Wed Sep 18 17:44:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195B11209BD; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:44:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wZzlZISDdh8G; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 020FC1209E9; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id w144so1263525oia.6; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:44:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vyxbESD9R69CzOe8LopBRGzTWXQ3fQzmR+CfBGpzTOI=; b=BNsScgaBrQUifdKot6uq21yvmPaiEpP9TIKFCGtG5+PZjsdCqaCUQW3HsnKewQ0e+I MMFgvx3V6TqMyMHvL+JSRGl+SVldjNUTu1HKU7qivN1sSzHZ24ebNrx/8ZqeLOrEp/3n gPOEmO7Bt4uL7yh3xSWr5fOcCxREh4kcAeIjkr97QMdsQh8IP6QFVOIVE38KL5WPhxEE EnmTX04Vm6XGJjmlj/+x48i1NAdZIZzoSHK5ON8Lua9EDa6+2G3dKemKlWgy7+OECnVx 5VeTESmAcN88ifQOUAx0IYw+nGSrELH1L7s2jtW7yB6T7BreFaYHAVew+8bnVfmK4e4x IUWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vyxbESD9R69CzOe8LopBRGzTWXQ3fQzmR+CfBGpzTOI=; b=TNsvd/ePBx8VaYYh7R1odxi3Vkp0V8/nCjgGa1xHrcXgAkqYjJcRxy3olH1pQX0IzM E3DXuNiikuWexIJSbAEytUZg1/xwDa28Nq/wqscVPQnvGLLAPsLv+pq4/a8Hc21FnNTL yLqzNvqDD6tNu3GvNQnslqvQfZS6EDgWrtE91E2wXl1oEu1m8LUnVQT/uQPsary115iA bIsU23PKM1e8aHjFbvlAW37GYoaAyh6L+SyF5D3Jv7jwh+6AheHGVv+dNOT6pUBCfhR5 pLjD1ttqCksNVbdju79nkD3GhbibUO9Qh1HpMQ2AccKhL38qe2VWEQbjDVZs+IsghruD /6LA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWgxZT1jzv7mWkkQ7xiah8bbnOyAHgSi9x+NscxFxeT9qXDZzse MQnd6zzzGcfBR1BvlbiMnHL5l8jEIf7YWupfoes= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy3LmUijZYtuZXdSaE1lRkeRdH8RbKe1UO0/46afvVddYVh4qPwhRhVMRlSuBtN4wX7GYENiAvAceJrOIBBtkg= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4e87:: with SMTP id c129mr472437oib.7.1568853868283; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:44:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <1AD1C187-31A8-4372-BBB9-13D4E17B2CC1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1AD1C187-31A8-4372-BBB9-13D4E17B2CC1@gmail.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 10:44:16 +1000 Message-ID: To: Gyan Mishra Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , xiechf@chinatelecom.cn, SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk , Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000860c710592dd41a9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 00:44:39 -0000 --000000000000860c710592dd41a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable None of that means there isn't room for improvement, or that lessons that can be learned and applied a second time around (just need to watch out for second system syndrome). The first version isn't always if ever the best version. On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 09:57 Gyan Mishra, wrote: > Daren > > This is from 2019 CISCO Live presentation > > > https://www.ciscolive.com/c/dam/r/ciscolive/us/docs/2019/pdf/BRKMPL-2132.= pdf > > IETF Standardization > =E2=80=A2 The work started by Cisco in 2014 > =E2=80=A2 Significant industry collaboration > =E2=80=A2 There are over SRv6 50 IETF documents > =E2=80=A2 The work spans over 13 working groups > =E2=80=A2 SRv6 header has been last called > =E2=80=A2 Network Programming is a Working Group document =E2=80=A2 Multi= vendor Consensus > #CLUS =C2=A9 2019 Cisco and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved. Cisc= o > Public > > Cisco Deployments > =E2=80=A2 Softbank > =E2=80=A2 Cisco Supports SoftBank on First SRv6 Deployment in Prep for 5G= =E2=80=A2 > Nationwide SRv6 network carrying live traffic > =E2=80=A2 Iliad > =E2=80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network to provide a new mobile offering in Ita= ly =E2=80=A2 The > SRv6 backbone is based on Cisco ASR 9000 and NCS 5500 =E2=80=A2 All the c= ell site > routers are SRv6 capable Iliad's NodeBox > =E2=80=A2 China Telecom > =E2=80=A2 Multi-city SRv6 network > > Gyan > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 18, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) > wrote: > > Hi Ron. > > I summarized my argument as follows: > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you > will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.=E2= =80=9D > > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thanks. > > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second t= o > saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." > > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: *The complexity of "SRv6+" > requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6.* > > Thanks > Darren > > > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Hi Darren, > > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: > > > - SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > - SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches > - Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > > > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straight= . > If so, please read on. > > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that > precedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires fo= ur > FIB searches, at most. > > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: > > > - The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases > require only one.) > - The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many > ASIC-based devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99= t support any > per segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ign= ore > the PSSI. That is why it is optional.) > > > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. > > So, you might now argue that: > > > - SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > - SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches > - Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > > > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has two > relevant resources: > > > - A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per > second > - Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per > second > > > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate the > line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform ha= s > a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. Bu= t > it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not > sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. > > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report on > the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provi= de > details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we= thought > that performance was going to be sub-optimal. > > You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Are y= ou sure > that this is correct? > > > = Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > *From:* Darren Dukes (ddukes) > *Sent:* Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG < > spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk = ; > Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad > *Subject:* =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding > > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in the > number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementations > at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. > > Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at li= ne rate? > You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re the o= nly > implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am > curious. > > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you > will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. > > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary > length DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensi= ve. > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in > any ASIC or NP. > > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple > identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. > 1 - lookup destination address > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. > 4 - lookup new destination address > > Compare this with SRv6. > 1 - lookup destination address > 2 - lookup new destination address > > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, these > technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not = go > away. > > Darren > > > > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica < > rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --000000000000860c710592dd41a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
None of that means there isn't room for improvem= ent, or that lessons that can be learned and applied a second time around (= just need to watch out for second system syndrome). The first version isn&#= 39;t always if ever the best version.

On Thu,= 19 Sep 2019, 09:57 Gyan Mishra, <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:
Daren

This is from 2019 CISCO Live presentation=C2=A0


IETF Standardization
=E2=80= =A2 The work started by Cisco in 2014
=E2=80=A2 Significant indus= try collaboration
=E2=80=A2 There are over SRv6 50 IETF documents=
=E2=80=A2 The work spans over 13 working groups
=E2=80= =A2 SRv6 header has been last called
=E2=80=A2 Network Programmin= g is a Working Group document =E2=80=A2 Multivendor Consensus
=C2= =A0#CLUS =C2=A9 2019 Cisco and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved. Cisc= o Public
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Cisco Deployments
= =E2=80=A2 Softbank
=E2=80=A2 Cisco Supports SoftBank on First SRv= 6 Deployment in Prep for 5G =E2=80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 network carrying live= traffic
=E2=80=A2 Iliad
=E2=80=A2 Nationwide SRv6 netw= ork to provide a new mobile offering in Italy =E2=80=A2 The SRv6 backbone i= s based on Cisco ASR 9000 and NCS 5500 =E2=80=A2 All the cell site routers = are SRv6 capable Iliad's NodeBox
=E2=80=A2 China Telecom
=E2=80=A2 Multi-city SRv6 network

Gyan=

S= ent from my iPhone

On Sep 18, 2019, at 9:41 AM, D= arren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Ron. =C2=A0

I summarized my argument as follows:
"Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalt= ies you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookup= s.=E2=80=9D

You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+"= ;.=C2=A0 Thanks.

You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per = second to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate.&quo= t;

Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6= +" requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6.

Thanks
=C2=A0 Darren


On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net&g= t; wrote:

Hi Darren,=C2=A0=
=C2=A0
I think that your argument can be summarized as follows:
=C2=A0

-------= -------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org=
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/ipv6
-----------------------------------= ---------------------------------
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------<= br> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@= ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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([2607:fb90:3627:b440:d1c9:de6c:1c50:44a1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p88sm3582201pjp.22.2019.09.18.17.44.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-CEF3724E-E8CD-484D-A53E-014A22AC8722 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Gaurav Dawra X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:44:54 -0700 Cc: Dirk Steinberg , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Robert Raszuk , Tom Herbert , Rob Shakir , Ron Bonica , Tarek Saad Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <144F2604-A171-4A58-BACB-DC97DE279BBC@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> To: Mark Smith Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 00:45:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail-CEF3724E-E8CD-484D-A53E-014A22AC8722 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1=20 Agree. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 18, 2019, at 5:32 PM, Mark Smith wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 09:40 Dirk Steinberg, wrote: >> SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP c= ore). >=20 >=20 > +1 >=20 > The Internet scales because complexity is pushed towards the edges. >=20 >>=20 >> - Dirk >>=20 >>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert wrote:= >>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) = wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Ron. >>> > >>> > I summarized my argument as follows: >>> > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties y= ou will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.=E2=80= =9D >>> > >>> > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thanks= . >>> > >>>=20 >>> Darren, >>>=20 >>> How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6? >>>=20 >>> Tom >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per secon= d to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." >>> > >>> > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" requi= res ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > Darren >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Darren, >>> > >>> > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: >>> > >>> > >>> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >>> > SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches >>> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >>> > >>> > >>> > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me strai= ght. If so, please read on. >>> > >>> > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that pre= cedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB= searches, at most. >>> > >>> > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: >>> > >>> > >>> > The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require o= nly one.) >>> > The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-base= d devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any p= er segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the= PSSI. That is why it is optional.) >>> > >>> > >>> > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. >>> > >>> > So, you might now argue that: >>> > >>> > >>> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >>> > SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches >>> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >>> > >>> > >>> > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has t= wo relevant resources: >>> > >>> > >>> > A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per secon= d >>> > Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per se= cond >>> > >>> > >>> > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate t= he line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform ha= s a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But= it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not s= ufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. >>> > >>> > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report o= n the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provid= e details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we t= hought that performance was going to be sub-optimal. >>> > >>> > You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Ar= e you sure that this is correct? >>> > >>> > = Ron >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Juniper Business Use Only >>> > From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) >>> > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM >>> > To: Ron Bonica >>> > Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <= daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG = ; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad >>> > Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding >>> > >>> > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in t= he number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementations= at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. >>> > >>> > Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at= line rate? >>> > You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re th= e only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I a= m curious. >>> > >>> > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties yo= u will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. >>> > >>> > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary l= ength DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive. >>> > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. >>> > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs i= n any ASIC or NP. >>> > >>> > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple i= dentifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. >>> > 1 - lookup destination address >>> > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. >>> > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. >>> > 4 - lookup new destination address >>> > >>> > Compare this with SRv6. >>> > 1 - lookup destination address >>> > 2 - lookup new destination address >>> > >>> > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, the= se technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not g= o away. >>> > >>> > Darren >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> > ipv6@ietf.org >>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-CEF3724E-E8CD-484D-A53E-014A22AC8722 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 
Agree.

Sent from my iPhone

On S= ep 18, 2019, at 5:32 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:



On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 09:40 Dirk S= teinberg, <dirk@lapishills.com= > wrote:
SRv6 doe= s not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP core).

+1

The Internet scales becaus= e complexity is pushed towards the edges.

<= div dir=3D"auto">

- Dirk

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 P= M Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Duk= es (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Ron.
>
> I summarized my argument as follows:
> "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties yo= u will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.=E2=80= =9D
>
> You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+".  Th= anks.
>

Darren,

How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6?

Tom


> You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second= to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate."
>
> Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" requir= es ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6.
>
> Thanks
>   Darren
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>= wrote:
>
> Hi Darren,
>
> I think that your argument can be summarized as follows:
>
>
> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
> SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches
> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed
>
>
> Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straig= ht. If so, please read on.
>
> First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that prec= edes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB s= earches, at most.
>
> Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case:
>
>
> The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require o= nly one.)
> The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based= devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any pe= r segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the P= SSI. That is why it is optional.)
>
>
> So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches.
>
> So, you might now argue that:
>
>
> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
> SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches
> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed
>
>
> Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has tw= o relevant resources:
>
>
> A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per second=
> Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per sec= ond
>
>
> So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate t= he line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform ha= s a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But= it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not s= ufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed.
>
> In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report o= n the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provid= e details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if we t= hought that performance was going to be sub-optimal.
>
> You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. Are= you sure that this is correct?
>
>                    &n= bsp;                     &= nbsp;                     &= nbsp;                     &= nbsp;                     &= nbsp;         Ron
>
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM
> To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
> Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.b= ernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatel= ecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Ro= bert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>= ; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
> Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding
>
> Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in t= he number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementations= at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs.
>
> Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at l= ine rate?
> You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times.  Since you=E2=80=99r= e the only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing= , I am curious.
>
> Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you= will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.
>
> Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary le= ngth DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive. > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads.
= > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in= any ASIC or NP.
>
> Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple i= dentifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node.
> 1 - lookup destination address
> 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options.
> 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label.
> 4 - lookup new destination address
>
> Compare this with SRv6.
> 1 - lookup destination address
> 2 - lookup new destination address
>
> While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, thes= e technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not g= o away.
>
> Darren
>
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40junip= er.net@dmarc.ietf..org> wrote:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> i= pv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spri= ng@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spri= ng@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
= = --Apple-Mail-CEF3724E-E8CD-484D-A53E-014A22AC8722-- From nobody Wed Sep 18 18:16:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132CC1200EC for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mG9m9M65wbAv for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x541.google.com (mail-ed1-x541.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::541]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 230ED1200B2 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x541.google.com with SMTP id a23so1643320edv.5 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:16:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LOf9Eti/dsLctqy6CiJjPgA2sHE+ap/nkweN2ga5MTw=; b=wU1J73QHjfhhgVa7324vUO16nB3BCZG/AYQtGTE0QVG4LWD91B9FU0Kca41c7HqKkL RjCuqPuQo2Drc8P1IPpb5XuWY/wUkqkU5QgmeKkkA1G7HN46ZHzfbGgXSKTqwQgmtxDY 3VumMbYNUMLSDpgUW+oCVQfq3qpNRYUgKLglt212DheSfsuQGEkfn4VnVOhnJiQNsIQY 7gA7mv+vDxA3ta+X3+mDoghPDlSL43QHk+zo6Oesbd0Uc+qP2CzO4p8q/pVBGpUB8Hk6 5YveJzztmNsAk2YS3LfxeUaop8N0BYevsXAUUiv1dX8xbihxbRU/oAKpShWhIaBUDNhv v7eg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LOf9Eti/dsLctqy6CiJjPgA2sHE+ap/nkweN2ga5MTw=; b=NrhRXGaAlWUW4+T74v0B6ySqh8J+SwUkglLYiQVTehque4rmKDjmQAnXzW+5ddzitc huOhyy6nguc7c+/sem8hbo/cSxSbPlUdRMWEoyAomu+h1OZGQeDb9fiJjKqBhPlmhs+v zvZE/rAwkGIH770OOT+L6WflPC1jw0FhSVKoFknnv2h1ipYV2heVeeXApLsznYXcZ8PX NEp1JTMzBuAzsb4B03vN8WCbs+zXdzqmPOABf+IVWsvwRzxE9WoN/3q0CDqnsBkWkTml nNF1uRCFRjZJ6eC8nws0Zucy7hY1d6LJ45j8mwybW1YZcCe7hFX32NXz5TdByDkLduHQ v0iw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUL0TbqffH7LxkZjUoAQTt3s7vcRYZvAmPzQKbuJV0BnkLjvyJ8 hJzaX+Q0yE/fuOE9nIIRmr6y/+NHJnmLSCOAizxgyg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzr3ZxuGPSAIYVF0WhWp7fAZXeI8rOCkB/UkaELZdiW2lHMt1hHrLD2CIMwAkQNddelledPfqBjqUJgbx/zPYc= X-Received: by 2002:a50:dac2:: with SMTP id s2mr13450858edj.26.1568855763525; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:16:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:15:52 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Dirk Steinberg , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:16:09 -0000 On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:33 PM Mark Smith wrote: > > > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 09:40 Dirk Steinberg, wrote: >> >> SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP= core). > > > +1 > > The Internet scales because complexity is pushed towards the edges. > Mark, I agree, but that begs the question as to why SRV6 contains its own TLVs and authentication as opposed to using edge mechanisms like destination options after the routing header or AH. The obvious intent of putting TLVs in the routing header is that some intermediate destinations will process them. So then these "some" intermediate nodes will sustain the performance hit of TLV processing. If this is so bad as expected that TLVs are relegated to the slow path, then nobody turns them on because of the performance hit and the mechanism likely becomes yet another extensibility mechanism with the same demise as IPv4 options. History shows again and again that extensibility mechanisms are "use it or lose it". Requiring an extensibility mechanism is a good force function and motivation for implementers to make the mechanism work and be feasible. Tom >> >> - Dirk >> >> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Ron. >>> > >>> > I summarized my argument as follows: >>> > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties = you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.= =E2=80=9D >>> > >>> > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thank= s. >>> > >>> >>> Darren, >>> >>> How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6? >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per seco= nd to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." >>> > >>> > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" requ= ires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > Darren >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Darren, >>> > >>> > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: >>> > >>> > >>> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >>> > SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches >>> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >>> > >>> > >>> > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me stra= ight. If so, please read on. >>> > >>> > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that pr= ecedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four F= IB searches, at most. >>> > >>> > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: >>> > >>> > >>> > The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require= only one.) >>> > The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-bas= ed devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any= per segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore = the PSSI. That is why it is optional.) >>> > >>> > >>> > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. >>> > >>> > So, you might now argue that: >>> > >>> > >>> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >>> > SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches >>> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >>> > >>> > >>> > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has = two relevant resources: >>> > >>> > >>> > A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per seco= nd >>> > Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per s= econd >>> > >>> > >>> > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate= the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform= has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed.= But it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is = not sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. >>> > >>> > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report= on the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot pro= vide details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if= we thought that performance was going to be sub-optimal. >>> > >>> > You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. A= re you sure that this is correct? >>> > >>> > = Ron >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Juniper Business Use Only >>> > From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) >>> > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM >>> > To: Ron Bonica >>> > Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca= ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad >>> > Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding >>> > >>> > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in= the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementati= ons at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. >>> > >>> > Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed a= t line rate? >>> > You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re t= he only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, = I am curious. >>> > >>> > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties y= ou will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. >>> > >>> > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary = length DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive= . >>> > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. >>> > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs = in any ASIC or NP. >>> > >>> > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple= identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. >>> > 1 - lookup destination address >>> > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. >>> > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. >>> > 4 - lookup new destination address >>> > >>> > Compare this with SRv6. >>> > 1 - lookup destination address >>> > 2 - lookup new destination address >>> > >>> > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, th= ese technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will no= t go away. >>> > >>> > Darren >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> > ipv6@ietf.org >>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Wed Sep 18 19:03:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com 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2019 02:03:19 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: Mark Smith CC: Dirk Steinberg , Tom Herbert , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Robert Raszuk , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W3NwcmluZ10g4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJkaW5n?= Thread-Index: AQHVbM6iBD2vmdhhC0CHW2Z2/PIyC6cvDt0wgAJlHoCAACXNgIAAgXoAgAAOrgCAABlCSQ== Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:03:18 +0000 Message-ID: <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: 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h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L/BxXJ9RGmVfl8PwA0E+kFsRz8Nanr1Z0CeNhz4tSxU=; b=CKNYuuAuaQovTAzFZl972MRBhkaQBN9AXaqicuf6sK+YNV2RfNaklcMzUz5AMm75uG mEXMAXdbyjm1nFMY1uY+wwOz/2iSVoWBscN6X3V/VqiJQYQXlQ9EMPRq+5i2TzlOvkKz LdJmR03QRftpZmkPhVF1IAMtbqsoXTgMqiuGUqivoqU4669Dum9DhmZi2lJbUU3oxbsD U7N5F7wqpH8pjtJDjOGBdqpT/UjW5GkxoXZ/jCjbJvltdkSkapZCRR4UZxMmhygIR4Bn 7kYxIRJaJT1R5PM/ui2fY9DjpDRhkPvUBN6THocto8KlkNj2OzrCpcnp2wCbk+oh2Ht1 rIHg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXdHfB0qSjrKX9zctbnU5jmIE7pnXo6tuoKDLCKV4OtYoBc9Upk AanXKjD1OgshmxXl8FH+F8EF5bWE4rZ/OgXQBpE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzX3Ic6cyAWTfZH0lgZ5DdGcP97RYHqN+Tjpz5gm5ml4asvU6nlTVa+11FlENnH7mLLDlGrINCS39y9iRjCAKE= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5588:: with SMTP id j130mr865161oib.38.1568865942024; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 21:05:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:05:15 +1000 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Dirk Steinberg , Tom Herbert , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Robert Raszuk , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 04:05:45 -0000 On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 12:03, Ron Bonica wrote: > > If you want to push complexity to the edge, put it in a destination optio= n that is processed at the edge. > Yes! It might seem like "forwarding" is taking a packet in on one interface, doing something to it, and then sending it out another. RFC 8200's / IPv6's definition for forwarding or "routing" is much more str= ict: " router a node that forwards IPv6 packets not explicitly addressed to itself. (See Note below.) host any node that is not a router. (See Note below.) node a device that implements IPv6." (Note at end for completeness; it doesn't contradict these definitions) So when a packet reaches a device, which could be "in the network", where the device has the address that matches the DA in the packet, the packet is being host processed. The processing to occur at that device with the packet's DA is determined by a Destination Option and/or the upper transport layer protocol headers in the packet's payload. These RFC 8200 definitions are functional. That means that the device we all probably imagine if we think of the term "router" is actually performing both the above router function (forwarding plane) and the host function (control plane). ASICs could also perform some of these these host functions when the packet arrives at the device with the packet's DA to get higher performance than a general purpose CPU could provide. Regards, Mark. " Note: it is possible for a device with multiple interfaces to be configured to forward non-self-destined packets arriving from some set (fewer than all) of its interfaces and to discard non-self- destined packets arriving from its other interfaces. Such a device must obey the protocol requirements for routers when receiving packets from, and interacting with neighbors over, the former (forwarding) interfaces. It must obey the protocol requirements for hosts when receiving packets from, and interacting with neighbors over, the latter (non-forwarding) interfaces.") > Ron > Sent from my phone > > > On Sep 18, 2019, at 8:33 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 09:40 Dirk Steinberg, wrote: >> >> SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP= core). > > > +1 > > The Internet scales because complexity is pushed towards the edges. > >> >> - Dirk >> >> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Ron. >>> > >>> > I summarized my argument as follows: >>> > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties = you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.= =E2=80=9D >>> > >>> > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thank= s. >>> > >>> >>> Darren, >>> >>> How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6? >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per seco= nd to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." >>> > >>> > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" requ= ires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. >>> > >>> > Thanks >>> > Darren >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Darren, >>> > >>> > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: >>> > >>> > >>> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >>> > SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches >>> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >>> > >>> > >>> > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me stra= ight. If so, please read on. >>> > >>> > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that pr= ecedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four F= IB searches, at most. >>> > >>> > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: >>> > >>> > >>> > The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require= only one.) >>> > The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-bas= ed devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support any= per segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore = the PSSI. That is why it is optional.) >>> > >>> > >>> > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. >>> > >>> > So, you might now argue that: >>> > >>> > >>> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches >>> > SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches >>> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed >>> > >>> > >>> > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has = two relevant resources: >>> > >>> > >>> > A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per seco= nd >>> > Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per s= econd >>> > >>> > >>> > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate= the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform= has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed.= But it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is = not sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. >>> > >>> > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report= on the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot pro= vide details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this if= we thought that performance was going to be sub-optimal. >>> > >>> > You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation. A= re you sure that this is correct? >>> > >>> > = Ron >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Juniper Business Use Only >>> > From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) >>> > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM >>> > To: Ron Bonica >>> > Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca= ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir ; Tarek Saad >>> > Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding >>> > >>> > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in= the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementati= ons at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. >>> > >>> > Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed a= t line rate? >>> > You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re t= he only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, = I am curious. >>> > >>> > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties y= ou will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. >>> > >>> > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary = length DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensive= . >>> > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. >>> > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs = in any ASIC or NP. >>> > >>> > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple= identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. >>> > 1 - lookup destination address >>> > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. >>> > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. >>> > 4 - lookup new destination address >>> > >>> > Compare this with SRv6. >>> > 1 - lookup destination address >>> > 2 - lookup new destination address >>> > >>> > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, th= ese technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will no= t go away. >>> > >>> > Darren >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> > ipv6@ietf.org >>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Wed Sep 18 21:51:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF3212011E; 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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 21:50:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 14:50:32 +1000 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: Dirk Steinberg , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 04:51:02 -0000 On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 11:16, Tom Herbert wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:33 PM Mark Smith wrote= : > > > > > > > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 09:40 Dirk Steinberg, wrote: > >> > >> SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: = SP core). > > > > > > +1 > > > > The Internet scales because complexity is pushed towards the edges. > > > Mark, > > I agree, but that begs the question as to why SRV6 contains its own > TLVs and authentication as opposed to using edge mechanisms like > destination options after the routing header or AH. Yes, agree entirely. I think it might be a mindset thing. If hosts and routers are imagined as devices, then it might seem necessary to invent new mechanisms to perform e.g. authentication when a packet crosses a router. Once your mindset changes to hosts and routers being functions, and you use the RFC 8200 definitions of those terms, it then becomes much clearer that host mechanisms like AH and Dest Options can be used "in the network", because a router as a device is performing both RFC 8200 routing and host functions. It's a bit of mental hurdle to cross, however X-in-IPv6 tunnel end-points are hosts, because they originate new packets (the outer header), they're the ultimate destination of those packets, and the SA and DA in the outer packet header are those of the devices at the ends of the tunnel. Once a tunnel end-point is viewed as a host, then all of the host options become available to use e.g. AH/ESP EHs, Destination Options, UDP/TCP etc. > The obvious intent > of putting TLVs in the routing header is that some intermediate > destinations will process them. So then these "some" intermediate > nodes will sustain the performance hit of TLV processing. If this is > so bad as expected that TLVs are relegated to the slow path, then > nobody turns them on because of the performance hit and the mechanism > likely becomes yet another extensibility mechanism with the same > demise as IPv4 options. History shows again and again that > extensibility mechanisms are "use it or lose it". Requiring an > extensibility mechanism is a good force function and motivation for > implementers to make the mechanism work and be feasible. > I think the thing that has happened in fairly recent times is that the "slow path" has become much faster, and by the sounds of it can be made faster using ASICs for specific processing. So it's now possible to "slow path" process packets at a fast enough rate and in enough of a volume that it becomes feasible to do so. I guess that HbH processing wasn't supported or enabled in the past for a few reasons - customers didn't ask vendors to provide it, because customers didn't have a use for it, and there was the potential for a DoS on a control plane as past control planes were fairly resource limited. Regards, Mark. > Tom > > >> > >> - Dirk > >> > >> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert wrot= e: > >>> > >>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > >>> > > >>> > Hi Ron. > >>> > > >>> > I summarized my argument as follows: > >>> > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penaltie= s you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.= =E2=80=9D > >>> > > >>> > You=E2=80=99ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Tha= nks. > >>> > > >>> > >>> Darren, > >>> > >>> How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6= ? > >>> > >>> Tom > >>> > >>> > >>> > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per se= cond to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." > >>> > > >>> > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" re= quires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. > >>> > > >>> > Thanks > >>> > Darren > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica wrote= : > >>> > > >>> > Hi Darren, > >>> > > >>> > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > >>> > SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches > >>> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me st= raight. If so, please read on. > >>> > > >>> > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that = precedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four= FIB searches, at most. > >>> > > >>> > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases requi= re only one.) > >>> > The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-b= ased devices, because of their role in the network, won=E2=80=99t support a= ny per segment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignor= e the PSSI. That is why it is optional.) > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. > >>> > > >>> > So, you might now argue that: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > >>> > SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches > >>> > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform ha= s two relevant resources: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per se= cond > >>> > Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per= second > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to satura= te the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platfo= rm has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line spee= d. But it=E2=80=99s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC i= s not sufficiently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. > >>> > > >>> > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to repo= rt on the state of Juniper=E2=80=99s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot p= rovide details, you can assume that we wouldn=E2=80=99t be working on this = if we thought that performance was going to be sub-optimal. > >>> > > >>> > You also suggest that Juniper=E2=80=99s is the only implementation.= Are you sure that this is correct? > >>> > > >>> > = Ron > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Juniper Business Use Only > >>> > From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) > >>> > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM > >>> > To: Ron Bonica > >>> > Cc: Mark Smith ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.= ca ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Rob Shakir = ; Tarek Saad > >>> > Subject: =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding > >>> > > >>> > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident = in the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementa= tions at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. > >>> > > >>> > Is =E2=80=9CSRv6+=E2=80=9D (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed= at line rate? > >>> > You=E2=80=99ve been asked this several times. Since you=E2=80=99re= the only implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing= , I am curious. > >>> > > >>> > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties= you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. > >>> > > >>> > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrar= y length DOH+set of PSSI=E2=80=99s and other options is always very expensi= ve. > >>> > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. > >>> > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLV= s in any ASIC or NP. > >>> > > >>> > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multip= le identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. > >>> > 1 - lookup destination address > >>> > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. > >>> > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. > >>> > 4 - lookup new destination address > >>> > > >>> > Compare this with SRv6. > >>> > 1 - lookup destination address > >>> > 2 - lookup new destination address > >>> > > >>> > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, = these technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will = not go away. > >>> > > >>> > Darren > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica wrote: > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - > >>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >>> > ipv6@ietf.org > >>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> spring mailing list > >>> spring@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> spring mailing list > >> spring@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Thu Sep 19 01:56:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 011691209E3; 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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([176.232.187.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s12sm9540656wrn.90.2019.09.19.01.56.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Sep 2019 01:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.2\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 11:56:37 +0300 Cc: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Robert Raszuk , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 08:56:48 -0000 > On Sep 18, 2019, at 4:41 PM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) = wrote: >=20 > The complexity of "SRv6+" requires ASICs do much more work per packet = vs SRv6. Duh. More processing is more processing, whether done in hardware, = software, or firmware. I'm not a fan of segment routing for several = reasons, but this fact isn't inherently one of them.= From nobody Thu Sep 19 02:34:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E4901200C4 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3HVEK8Gl6HMk for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C04ED1208FE for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id f16so2626830qkl.9 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:34:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+EIisj2R7xEb9oXLEaXaGNah9+zBclCnq4zavlyQ7Gs=; b=bduTcedwbamHPEoQlJQYyrTOjaNCCrnToKG5Z2sVPtRhbZfJyIIuBv3YFBuMX33RtF TaL14OvgQreCzIz8HhRefDEWDejTPstAVMB7qADr9ilbFptTKfG8t0gFXL0STqfR3iIv RXJGfU0q6uKbZJ1fGftqJ80B0Zmxz7YUuVa8l5KO/QPeaI5n5UvShIKa0xt8//5b1/aJ q51IF8gShLQofwAk6excGKvW81UVHabtTXDRbJAgZ5GFOrDqSaU9L5TvResAZAvhbZEj 2Md178io8vmTWjBq/MYCu3dDma+ohpXF3DokZ11zO5kMsmywRa9CvV3XRARDihDWfDRp eK0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+EIisj2R7xEb9oXLEaXaGNah9+zBclCnq4zavlyQ7Gs=; b=I+Fq3ZzZtn18oa6bsiL48ppRP3uwLbmt0WKmfpts85wLcCNKAYILsen1qQWN7Fg/RY kLw9LwcRUAr2ATRT4oWF7YARGFRnKk/ILPEEceCCb+cEvg5/OmwQA3YOSI5oGlU5KWgU 2DuJS6TUjYlnV6VrpOZPk7yeZS249KYOF89ItvqqVhDb8DCz2J9bfF9lvjP2SSpd0MJh J8/y8Q07+mQzERIxnn+9A88mrHoyfewc4OX034yzE2KnxEwxntIbmfwRpcjp878/3FMC h7fG4o26qSQ93lzF+/9EC0INPCRDH41G0KqkK/pHCPaVoas9Q2vfbhRjUCymAhtnJfDa f66Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW6NyBrR33s9aJH/dZ8z+ao3xgOzPppkfh+jnZ+VWikw8Ih/rh9 Wzi83Oco5uF6GANeVISZbckEbieXNOIXKQuvR14ugg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwu7Mj5sW7pKykzp8CDu2IFD9OukyWmC5oIqX2Z0YuHvplseZJnfzs0kpfytp/SJbKRkoQpgCyY0wU38qv7W/8= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6144:: with SMTP id v65mr1806975qkb.465.1568885659606; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:34:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 11:34:10 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Mark Smith , Dirk Steinberg , Tom Herbert , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006f38f60592e4a83d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:34:24 -0000 --0000000000006f38f60592e4a83d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ron, If you want to push complexity to the edge, put it in a destination option > that is processed at the edge. > > Ron > Just curious what is your definition of the "edge" ? If destination address matches local address that is the "edge" for the packet. So each TE midpoint is the "edge". The only difference I observed is if you put something before or after RH is how to handle it when that something is unknown to the node. Here as each router can be an edge this unknown is not likely to occur. There is no difference in how IPv6 processing of those DOH will attempt to take place. That is also why IMHO split of PSSI from PPSI is a bit wired as the only reason for it seems to be to avoid dropping packets at mid points if PPSI is unknown to it. Thx, R. --0000000000006f38f60592e4a83d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

If you want to p= ush complexity to the edge, put it in a destination option that is processe= d at the edge.

Ron<= /div>

Just curious what is your defin= ition of the "edge" ? If destination address matches local addres= s that is the "edge" for the packet. So each TE midpoint is the &= quot;edge".=C2=A0

The only difference I obser= ved is if you put something before or after RH is how to handle it when tha= t something is unknown to the node. Here as each router can be an edge this= unknown is not likely to occur.=C2=A0

There is no= difference in how IPv6 processing of those DOH will attempt to take place.= =C2=A0

That is also why IMHO split of PSSI from PP= SI is a bit wired as the only reason for it seems to be to avoid dropping p= ackets at mid points if PPSI is unknown to it.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.


=C2=A0
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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 02:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur04lp2056.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.13.56]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-22-eQGx9wKjOTi977S9X9_2-g-1; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 10:49:25 +0100 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.179.47.79) by DBBPR03MB5461.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.179.45.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2284.20; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:49:23 +0000 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fd1a:fcdd:6a6d:1409]) by DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fd1a:fcdd:6a6d:1409%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2263.023; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:49:23 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: 'SPRING WG List' Thread-Topic: A note on CRH and on going testing Thread-Index: AdVuzdRMlDKEMMI0RQuelvHh3plxxw== Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:49:23 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [197.155.81.57] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9fa6e572-760c-4622-bb1b-08d73ce6a713 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; 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charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:49:32 -0000 Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. =20 What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering.=20 I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew From nobody Thu Sep 19 04:14:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6831200B7; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 04:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yW_hMCE0VEF0; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 04:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com (mx0b-00273201.pphosted.com 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<65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 17:30:11 +0200 Message-ID: To: Srihari Sangli Cc: Ron Bonica , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fad1770592e9a1f6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 15:30:29 -0000 --000000000000fad1770592e9a1f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. > The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. > Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That is regardless what any other spec says ... unfortunately. Best, R. --000000000000fad1770592e9a1f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architectur= e better. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI.

Well the = crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 d= estination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That is regardle= ss what any other spec says ... unfortunately.=C2=A0

Best,
R.


=C2=A0
--000000000000fad1770592e9a1f6-- From nobody Thu Sep 19 08:36:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E7512012A for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 08:36:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gfaozGnYgZnm for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 08:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA2-Wyn.bell.ca (esa2-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD446120144 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 08:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm5cch-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.31]) by esa02corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 19 Sep 2019 11:36:12 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120b::8eb6:120b) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 11:36:12 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([::1]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 11:36:12 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: SING Team CC: 'SPRING WG List' Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Thread-Index: AQHVbv1yBp9qOug3bUqxg3rQMHPVi6czIfSA Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 15:36:11 +0000 Message-ID: <20625BDC-2D90-4E35-96E3-2BC4B723C06E@bell.ca> References: <1568906072231.1bkuswxveutxvlrzmmzkgs2g@android.mail.163.com> 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Received: from ESA3-Wyn.bell.ca (esa3-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C31F120130 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 08:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm5czo-d00.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX03-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.32]) by esa03corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 19 Sep 2019 11:41:42 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX03-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120d::8eb6:120d) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 11:41:41 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([::1]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 11:41:41 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: SING Team CC: 'SPRING WG List' Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Thread-Index: AQHVbv1yBp9qOug3bUqxg3rQMHPVi6czIfSAgAABioA= Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 15:41:41 +0000 Message-ID: <9B52C7FB-D70A-4324-8939-25C828AC8DA7@bell.ca> References: <1568906072231.1bkuswxveutxvlrzmmzkgs2g@android.mail.163.com> <20625BDC-2D90-4E35-96E3-2BC4B723C06E@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: <20625BDC-2D90-4E35-96E3-2BC4B723C06E@bell.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.e.190909 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.3] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9B52C7FBD70A4324893925C828AC8DA7bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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<30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Reji Thomas Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 21:46:59 +0530 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Srihari Sangli , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002563fc0592ea49bd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:17:15 -0000 --0000000000002563fc0592ea49bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Robert, >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I understand. See Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? IPv6 header Hop-by-Hop Options header Destination Options header (note 1) Routing header Fragment header Authentication header (note 2) Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) Destination Options header (note 3) Upper-Layer header note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload headers are given in [RFC4303 ]. note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination of the packet. Regards Reji On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. >> The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >> > > Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at > each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That > is regardless what any other spec says ... unfortunately. > > Best, > R. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000002563fc0592ea49bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 
Hi Robert,

>>Well the c=
rux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 de=
stination which here means each transit node per RFC8200

 From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the=
 case or at least as I understand. See  =
Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something?
=C2=A0
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4=
303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:
=

=
I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture bett= er. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI.

Well the crux o= f the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destina= tion which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That is regardless wha= t any other spec says ... unfortunately.=C2=A0

=
Best,
R.


=C2=A0
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--0000000000002563fc0592ea49bd-- From nobody Thu Sep 19 09:56:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9298120077 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:56:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z94j1U7hxAhb for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82d.google.com (mail-qt1-x82d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD27F120130 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82d.google.com with SMTP id x5so5092875qtr.7 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:56:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nIbpqavt6RrDo3sIuG63nkP9rEKirkFhiAMVm9Gqs3g=; b=ChCRVU/ij0rYpnMDd90maXPgh4eiLFk1M1n19hZCEJrbe8o2YE5Kmqcbh41vMn1KN8 IyJPUJrj/ZUrGAdLFoq4DxWr1+/WyXIzWtQJoWrxFs+2JNh/Rhx1HTOXQMAizSwgZf9v CipkCZVCGPHmqM4Ac8m0+LMInNdtyR7HiKsMv7o3HC2i+YOrJh/wcRkyVfiTJvPG11hK vH4vCN6/MaeHh4mmoOT/booP0ATrb6MT3ugyidK05r+4WQaIf3Zn1eu9gwSiK6tZhhxo ibndDPirSj7SKC6s1iqPN1HiEtUwXyx9Li54eoi/jHkPz8wYm3EoYoYGaqo7HWKkjLxi u8Vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nIbpqavt6RrDo3sIuG63nkP9rEKirkFhiAMVm9Gqs3g=; b=oecn6AdfNa6f7QTe4TJQqhk6QwowSylV5K5/yY9XjWlRXiOI7YbqhQF5nwsiDL4aBD RDnQaLfwEbLGr9/UvjXkxaXh5rKADAHRPzpbmWtRzfNxewQwBcv599AjV185Ct09ejrU OM/lyngstjbkcZ/o5pn1B5bkw6IgycwgNIPmoJCZtPeqt8ADI5+/bRUHbEmgx6UMP9YL HyzKI0jaEdTj/IcyhYtx8pgAcfJ26Lvpz64YsBV1alU6pJ39PP6vDJ7OhuI+zFpr05Y9 YHFWO7UF1YSU2ShF3EA0v6fqq+D+VFrTW4xMzF9qxIki7bJWXz7t0eUPs8YRMMMcUU3e qnng== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWc8cPWAnDvtNNdoFhECUPZGdpE5744SZwc8BIK1WaNMUqceE1W ZwQYvKvl5IW9jZ3EMQcBM3qOcj9eTK0sHyJ1C8CDjg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqybRmB52q8N+08hojS9pTZ2Dahd/zi8elL0kqYE9k5DizQLJLRZ3/SbQ9LtBaPjSnB/bbnJvFDzswFoz0JcMbw= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:2ae9:: with SMTP id c38mr4225610qta.311.1568912198900; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 09:56:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 18:56:24 +0200 Message-ID: To: Reji Thomas Cc: Robert Raszuk , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004cc6130592ead6c8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 16:56:43 -0000 --0000000000004cc6130592ead6c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both. I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destination" address ? Many thx, R. On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 > > > From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I understand. See Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? > > > > IPv6 header > Hop-by-Hop Options header > Destination Options header (note 1) > Routing header > Fragment header > Authentication header (note 2) > Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) > Destination Options header (note 3) > Upper-Layer header > > note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that > appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus > subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. > > note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of > the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload > headers are given in [RFC4303 ]. > > note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination > of the packet. > > > Regards > Reji > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > >> >> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. >>> The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>> >> >> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at >> each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That >> is regardless what any other spec says ... unfortunately. >> >> Best, >> R. >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000004cc6130592ead6c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE = midpoint is either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both.= =C2=A0

I do not know what is the difference between IPv6= Destination Address in the fixed header and "final destination".= Where do you carry "final destination" address ?=C2=A0

Many=C2=A0 thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM = Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>Well the crux of the matter i=
s that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which her=
e means each transit node per RFC8200

 From RFC 8200 that =
doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I understand. See  Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something?
=C2=A0
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Reg= ards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszu= k <rraszuk@gmail.= com> wrote:

<= div lang=3D"EN-IN">
I disa= gree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. The SRv= 6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI.

Well the crux of the matte= r is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which = here means each transit node per RFC8200. That is regardless what any other= spec says ... unfortunately.=C2=A0

Best,
R.


=C2=A0
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--0000000000004cc6130592ead6c8-- From nobody Thu Sep 19 12:15:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF5DC120114; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:14:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SKKvRf_kjEAZ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x933.google.com (mail-ua1-x933.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::933]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA2EE1200BA; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x933.google.com with SMTP id f9so1453210uaj.4; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OfMkznHSz/zbJ6IZ6Lp0MYeyqBDGG6gbIam/3s3B8tk=; b=Gn3JLsehBHLocNQZVCod9HQBmx1btUgEV3bfwKvjrMJqMxRQVhhnjZPSwHL48rBjuP /OG9pumMoZtyeACYocSkjVwls7e953chY5muGcOqcDA2viZW7tMMch4gByNXCybqpqBl gFy9USphBwjSFrM8uK5K9IWuGuXno7Wt5Abda4qtPt4gs/Bgvw/AsStC/5WOvHLnFMdR RVITgL6SSymR2HvuwBUc5kV+TGLf1w7t8hVd9UItHTozT6JWsS2pcrzMWCZHrhidb1Bx nMkW7Q3LcSXZW9slNSma4nVN5Q+Ku+UyVwWY4LHXDkroW6SUySgWH+W/OK/a3F5pDX3I p9Rg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OfMkznHSz/zbJ6IZ6Lp0MYeyqBDGG6gbIam/3s3B8tk=; b=VwxMgWGM+oh7EZ24Kmis6UgvKHfRWxatBhBuuFVd6Wx7yZYIHPPW8Lt9j+pHNavGSW Q74fOvi2I+5U2vjqXojeIuAwd2KIbp0clnr654cQO1HHJQDtrLVBUfntSNiWGnBSruuI 49xQRYehssMCee7HmlI3RjMcBIa+bD/zqMm+7/MP9dOrKwpZTXbdmUZQaoZ4Edk9Both Um/1qkX0Y+o023wiHeb+jB2xajKGQl3Ld4W/ns2BmHJeQLTPQxY+3ZEXrszR5HCZyqXT ndOAVYC0sriNDwWSSN3xiWn30m9ploFZHZ62ahUNemE0SGvtGvM/++HOYruYuofxtSMQ 9/kg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUVKGAz/t4lDAMt+sSQFRB742TCtE2+qmIJX/1hphU/pa352ojQ bAfUtKhVkyNvNnzBEu0A7FI3LwSR6Thm4hbQ3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqywG7FMzCWFeR5yBvhmhLMmyiZ+ZHyi8ETFVZ/HQADi9vk5593mro6ggQoP+oU1F5s7dy/3hah5eGI+pNE2jT0= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:539d:: with SMTP id k29mr6614923uaa.67.1568920486602; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Reji Thomas Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 00:44:35 +0530 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Robert Raszuk , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000048ecd30592ecc41b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 19:14:51 -0000 --00000000000048ecd30592ecc41b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Robert, >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destination" address ? See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200. Hope its clear what's the final destination and the context in which it is used. Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly listed intermediate nodes still to be visited before reaching the final destination. Regards Reji On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is > either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both. > > I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in > the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final > destination" address ? > > Many thx, > R. > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas > wrote: > >> Hi Robert, >> >> >> >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 >> >> >> From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I understand. See Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? >> >> >> >> IPv6 header >> Hop-by-Hop Options header >> Destination Options header (note 1) >> Routing header >> Fragment header >> Authentication header (note 2) >> Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) >> Destination Options header (note 3) >> Upper-Layer header >> >> note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that >> appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus >> subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. >> >> note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of >> the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload >> headers are given in [RFC4303 ]. >> >> note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination >> of the packet. >> >> >> Regards >> Reji >> >> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: >> >>> >>> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture >>>> better. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>>> >>> >>> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at >>> each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That >>> is regardless what any other spec says ... unfortunately. >>> >>> Best, >>> R. >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > --00000000000048ecd30592ecc41b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert,

>>I do not know= what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed heade= r and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destina= tion" address ?=C2=A0

See = Section 4.4 in RFC 8200.=C2=A0 Hope its clear what's the final destinat= ion and the context in which it is used.

Segments Left 8-bit unsigned = integer. Number of route segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly listed intermediate nodes still to be visited before reaching the final destination. 

Regards
Reji
=

On Thu, Sep 19= , 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk <r= obert@raszuk.net> wrote:
= IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is eithe= r a packet's destination or not. It can not be both.=C2=A0

I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Addres= s in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry= "final destination" address ?=C2=A0

Man= y=C2=A0 thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail= .com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>=
;>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to =
process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node=
 per RFC8200

 From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least =
as I understand. See  Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3=
. Am I missing something?
=C2=
=A0
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, = 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:
=

I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages th= e DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases b= etter FYI.

Well th= e crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6= destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That is regard= less what any other spec says ... unfortunately.=C2=A0

Best,
R.
<= br>

=C2=A0
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ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
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--00000000000048ecd30592ecc41b-- From nobody Thu Sep 19 12:50:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE734120152 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:50:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M6u2lEvcCVbr for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E1E5120129 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id 201so4651234qkd.13 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:50:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hMi6Ww1mA10wHlGOgzyN9GTzjw1+1UDXchfqie43Iz8=; b=DOaRnA2sO1wJIF0NbPdycrEicOlCUbVJQQh0RgZK+deb24iN12KPSCFiLM5hrO/jGF SSVamvXjjz2rW+o2mpdtRBbDBOzNvWmSg/W626jw85qM24vSdXTRZAHVDDqbhx7ia5Uv UzuREsNBxp0PWIB+Vwc9mQq24OOF3UXhWnzhQqDggMwbFzqKS+15L81Y9CFf02SShRc4 p48JlqAMEXQHXauH04VBZ1Z8AZQ3F3ufAsnGnD9U8DtfL9JUKirJdCXAicM5fleh6whH t3zyAkbv8JiOQnzIbi9WeEWGM7Q9Oo7MJHmFcz0dWUGbm/w/wskuzfAg6CY3AtSka262 aC+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hMi6Ww1mA10wHlGOgzyN9GTzjw1+1UDXchfqie43Iz8=; b=Q5lBg0GCpuf8oiXkHhvzHSJZUTxwWJjiLA0upaR7oW1HVRHfV7yfxWktRQeSrvymCx zz7o+kCXYchV2xza4+gbVCSiB19PaurguER+9yxUapBRAv/eKjsZMvmJeItAhz7Vh9bm yuVhIVzEs1jWuBezQ/U7IFJj/DMLho7bOEQEsDeUa7NVoah8WLwpHfDYRfMkwm9UyB5T LlTXLcR38SDGc/uE5YOYEOdwX+4UNO8xtw1T0V47LyZVdIUvINOxCcVHfZulOEXp3YUn 3l4xbBpIDXRb9zD2a8AAPsPXips+DobjO4s4DfZlx7sJ6gTfel32E36ESHRWQAiqNcEG XunQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXEgQnKPZCPR3G5lhORETX4CnqLM0S8gidIqo+jn42i8uJIVvKC LweMDAx6kPWwLFuGS4jmTsPjOEWWnXT4VkyYmy9cJA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxzBGIMzRPX6JNOHQxkFfovgDWhiLAv542caRT5IsWSwrrwrJstdYychOW7UUmH/LiFqDhz2dT9dbE4RJ9qC6Q= X-Received: by 2002:a37:8547:: with SMTP id h68mr4727432qkd.219.1568922617578; Thu, 19 Sep 2019 12:50:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 21:50:08 +0200 Message-ID: To: Reji Thomas Cc: Robert Raszuk , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004d1d9c0592ed4397" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 19:50:22 -0000 --0000000000004d1d9c0592ed4397 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Reji, Notice what it says: *" ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... "* CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes so I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret them. But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread become great education. An real example where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 which does put the addresses explicitly. Many thx, Robert. On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas wrote: > Hi Robert, > > >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in > the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final > destination" address ? > > See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200. Hope its clear what's the final destination > and the context in which it is used. > > Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route > segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly > listed intermediate nodes still to be visited > before reaching the final destination. > > > Regards > > Reji > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > >> IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is >> either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both. >> >> I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in >> the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final >> destination" address ? >> >> Many thx, >> R. >> >> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Robert, >>> >>> >>> >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 >>> >>> >>> From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I understand. See Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? >>> >>> >>> >>> IPv6 header >>> Hop-by-Hop Options header >>> Destination Options header (note 1) >>> Routing header >>> Fragment header >>> Authentication header (note 2) >>> Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) >>> Destination Options header (note 3) >>> Upper-Layer header >>> >>> note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that >>> appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus >>> subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. >>> >>> note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of >>> the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload >>> headers are given in [RFC4303 ]. >>> >>> note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination >>> of the packet. >>> >>> >>> Regards >>> Reji >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture >>>>> better. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs >>>> at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. >>>> That is regardless what any other spec says ... unfortunately. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> R. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>> >> --0000000000004d1d9c0592ed4397 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Reji,

Notice what it says: "= ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... "

=
CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate= nodes so I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you i= nterpret them.=C2=A0

But I am i no way authoritati= ve ... still learning IPv6 and this thread become great education.=C2=A0

An real example where those procedure apply is docum= ented in RFC6554 which does put the addresses explicitly.=C2=A0
<= br>
Many thx,
Robert.


=




<= /b>

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>I do not know w= hat is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed header = and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destinati= on" address ?=C2=A0

See Se= ction 4.4 in RFC 8200.=C2=A0 Hope its clear what's the final destinatio= n and the context in which it is used.

      Segments Left       8=
-bit unsigned integer.  Number of route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.


Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> w= rote:
IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint= is either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both.=C2=A0
I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destinati= on Address in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do = you carry "final destination" address ?=C2=A0

Many=C2=A0 thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thoma= s <rejithoma= s.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>Well =
the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IP=
v6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200
<= pre class=3D"gmail-m_7904442527299118929gmail-m_-4835811391373464681gmail-m= _-2116522249630451124gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top= :0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
 From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem=
 to be the case or at least as I understand. See  S=
ection 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something?
=C2=A0
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji<= /div>

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:
=

=
I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture bett= er. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI.

Well the crux of the matter is that you= still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means ea= ch transit node per RFC8200. That is regardless what any other spec says ..= . unfortunately.=C2=A0

Best,
R.


=C2= =A0
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Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
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([2600:1003:b026:7d3f:5151:d3f8:5a25:efa9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l206sm246261qke.33.2019.09.19.18.06.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Sep 2019 18:06:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-427D8EA8-B3AD-4B4D-9FF4-F05E30993BFF Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 21:06:45 -0400 Cc: Reji Thomas , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> To: Robert Raszuk Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 01:06:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail-427D8EA8-B3AD-4B4D-9FF4-F05E30993BFF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert=20 I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium and I kno= w the question has come up a few times and I know you replied back a few tim= es related to the service provider use case where we end up with the multipl= e violations of RFC 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH insertion as well a= s many EH insertions occurring and what was mentioned was Ti-LFA. So since L= FA and Remote LFA are extensions of the IGP providing the 50ms failover simi= lar to traditional mpls Fast Reroute capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path pr= otection in the legacy TE FRR pce the head end PE LSR adds and additional mp= ls shim for FRR. With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions opaque LSA= =E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided by LFA loop f= ree backup path. In that scenario with LDP there is not any additional labe= l with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA backup path with L= DP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tunnled through the R= LFA node. So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are not u= sing mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional mpls T= E FRR. I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint what the= use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate node as th= at even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and for that m= atter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D source= routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the intermed= iate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrite of IP= v6 destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP on the= egress node of the service provider core. I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their is a= asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we don=E2= =80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our path target= ing SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6. Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think unders= tanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the justification of= the RFC 8200 violations. Thank you Gyan Mishra Verizon Communications=20 Cell 301 502-1347 Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > Hi Reji, >=20 > Notice what it says: " ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... " >=20 > CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes so I= do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret the= m.=20 >=20 > But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread be= come great education.=20 >=20 > An real example where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 which= does put the addresses explicitly.=20 >=20 > Many thx, > Robert. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas wrot= e: >> Hi Robert, >>=20 >> >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address i= n the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destin= ation" address ?=20 >>=20 >> See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200. Hope its clear what's the final destination= and the context in which it is used. >>=20 >> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route >> segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly >> listed intermediate nodes still to be visited >> before reaching the final destination. >>=20 >> Regards >> Reji >>=20 >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wrote= : >>> IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is ei= ther a packet's destination or not. It can not be both.=20 >>>=20 >>> I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in= the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destina= tion" address ?=20 >>>=20 >>> Many thx, >>> R. >>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas wr= ote: >>>> Hi Robert, >>>>=20 >>>> >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs= at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 >>>>=20 >>>> =46rom RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I unde= rstand. See Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? >>>> =20 >>>> IPv6 header >>>> Hop-by-Hop Options header >>>> Destination Options header (note 1) >>>> Routing header >>>> Fragment header >>>> Authentication header (note 2) >>>> Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) >>>> Destination Options header (note 3) >>>> Upper-Layer header >>>>=20 >>>> note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that= >>>> appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus >>>> subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. >>>>=20 >>>> note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order o= f >>>> the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload >>>> headers are given in [RFC4303]. >>>>=20 >>>> note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination= >>>> of the packet. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>> Reji >>>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk wrot= e: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture bet= ter. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs a= t each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That= is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best, >>>>> R. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =20 >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> spring mailing list >>>> spring@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-427D8EA8-B3AD-4B4D-9FF4-F05E30993BFF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert 

I know w= e have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium and I know the qu= estion has come up a few times and I know you replied back a few times relat= ed to the service provider use case where we end up with the multiple violat= ions of RFC 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH insertion as well as many E= H insertions occurring and what was mentioned was Ti-LFA.  So since LFA= and Remote LFA are extensions of the IGP providing the 50ms failover simila= r to traditional mpls Fast Reroute capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path p= rotection in the legacy TE FRR pce the head end PE LSR adds and additional m= pls shim for FRR.

With IP LFA and remote LFA used w= ith LDP there are IGP extensions opaque LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre p= rogrammed backup path provided by LFA loop free backup path.  In that s= cenario with LDP there is not any additional label with LFA but with remote L= FA is added for the Remote LFA backup path with LDP session protection enabl= ed with targeted LDP session tunnled through the RLFA node.

So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we a= re not using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the tradition= al mpls TE FRR.

I am not getting it from a network e= ngineering technical standpoint what the use case is and why EH insertion wo= uld occur on any intermediate node as that even in the legacy mpls TE world i= ts on the ingress LSR PE and for that matter in this case the benefit of SRv= 6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D source routing via SRH pssi instructions an= d not maintaining state on the intermediate nodes which just do the PSSI and= copy the SRH destination rewrite of IPv6 destination for the traffic engine= ered path and then do PSP or USP on the egress node of the service provider c= ore.

I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core= for Verizon and if their is a asic processing penalty hit due to intermedia= te node EH insertion we don=E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP a= nd stick with our path targeting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going t= o SRv6.

Thanks in advance for help in clarification= of this topic and I think understanding the use case would help 6man overal= l understand the justification of the RFC 8200 violations.

Thank you

Gyan Mishra
Verizon Com= munications 
Cell 301 502-1347

Sent from my iPhone

On S= ep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

=
Hi Reji,

Notice what it= says: " ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... "

CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermed= iate nodes so I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way yo= u interpret them. 

But I am i no way authorita= tive ... still learning IPv6 and this thread become great education. 

An real example where those procedure apply is docum= ented in RFC6554 which does put the addresses explicitly. 
Many thx,
Robert.






=

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>I do not know what is the= difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed header and "final d= estination". Where do you carry "final destination" address ? 

See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200.  Hope i= ts clear what's the final destination and the context in which it is used.

      Segments Left       8-bit unsigned integer.  Number of route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.


Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
IPv6 fixed h= eader has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is either a packet's d= estination or not. It can not be both. 

I do not kno= w what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed heade= r and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destination" address ?&= nbsp;

Many  thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 201= 9 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at ea=
ch IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200

 =46rom RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to b=
e the case or at least as I understand. See  Section 4=
.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something?
 
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:

I disagre= e. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. The SRv6+ d= rafts explain the usecases better FYI.

Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to pro= cess all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per= RFC8200. That is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.&nb= sp;

Best,
R.


 
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spring@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--------= ------------------------------------------------------------
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Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailma= n/listinfo/ipv6
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DGGEML401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::89ed:853e:30a9:2a79%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:23:41 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Robert Raszuk , Reji Thomas CC: "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W3NwcmluZ10g4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJkaW5n?= Thread-Index: AQHVbwXS+HcXpRMTv0uRRFysCBNlpqcysi4AgAAmnICAAAnvAIAA7D3A Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 02:23:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> 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[73.189.13.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h14sm410345pfo.15.2019.09.19.19.43.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Sep 2019 19:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-01BACA43-A038-48AA-8792-5E8FFECA9170 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jeff Tantsura X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: <02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 19:43:52 -0700 Cc: Robert Raszuk , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> <02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> To: Gyan Mishra Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 02:44:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail-01BACA43-A038-48AA-8792-5E8FFECA9170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gyan, IPFRR doesn=E2=80=99t use/need any IGP extensions and is local to the device= computing LFA. As RTGWG chair - I welcome you to read a number of rather well written RFCs o= n the topic we have published in RTGWG over the last 7 years.=20 Pay attention on how LFAs are computed, this would clarify your question as t= o why there=E2=80=99s no need for additional imposition as well as why LFA p= rovides partial coverage. There=E2=80=99s also TI-LFA draft that explains how TI-LFA is computed and w= hy it relies on additional imposition if LFA is unavailable. Regards, Jeff > On Sep 19, 2019, at 18:06, Gyan Mishra wrote: >=20 > Hi Robert=20 >=20 > I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium and I k= now the question has come up a few times and I know you replied back a few t= imes related to the service provider use case where we end up with the multi= ple violations of RFC 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH insertion as wel= l as many EH insertions occurring and what was mentioned was Ti-LFA. So sin= ce LFA and Remote LFA are extensions of the IGP providing the 50ms failover s= imilar to traditional mpls Fast Reroute capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path= protection in the legacy TE FRR pce the head end PE LSR adds and additional= mpls shim for FRR. >=20 > With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions opaque L= SA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided by LFA loo= p free backup path. In that scenario with LDP there is not any additional l= abel with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA backup path wi= th LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tunnled through t= he RLFA node. >=20 > So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are not= using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional mpl= s TE FRR. >=20 > I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint what t= he use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate node as t= hat even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and for that m= atter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D source= routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the intermed= iate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrite of IP= v6 destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP on the= egress node of the service provider core. >=20 > I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their is= a asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we don=E2= =80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our path target= ing SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6. >=20 > Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think unde= rstanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the justification o= f the RFC 8200 violations. >=20 > Thank you >=20 > Gyan Mishra > Verizon Communications=20 > Cell 301 502-1347 >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >> On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Reji, >>=20 >> Notice what it says: " ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... " >>=20 >> CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes so= I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret t= hem.=20 >>=20 >> But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread b= ecome great education.=20 >>=20 >> An real example where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 whic= h does put the addresses explicitly.=20 >>=20 >> Many thx, >> Robert. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas wro= te: >>> Hi Robert, >>>=20 >>> >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address i= n the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destin= ation" address ?=20 >>>=20 >>> See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200. Hope its clear what's the final destinatio= n and the context in which it is used. >>>=20 >>> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route >>> segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly= >>> listed intermediate nodes still to be visited >>> before reaching the final destination. >>>=20 >>> Regards >>> Reji >>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wrot= e: >>>> IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is e= ither a packet's destination or not. It can not be both.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address i= n the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destin= ation" address ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Many thx, >>>> R. >>>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas w= rote: >>>>> Hi Robert, >>>>>=20 >>>>> >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EH= s at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 >>>>>=20 >>>>> =46rom RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I und= erstand. See Section 4..1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? >>>>> =20 >>>>> IPv6 header >>>>> Hop-by-Hop Options header >>>>> Destination Options header (note 1) >>>>> Routing header >>>>> Fragment header >>>>> Authentication header (note 2) >>>>> Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) >>>>> Destination Options header (note 3) >>>>> Upper-Layer header >>>>>=20 >>>>> note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination tha= t >>>>> appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus >>>>> subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. >>>>>=20 >>>>> note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order o= f >>>>> the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload >>>>> headers are given in [RFC4303]. >>>>>=20 >>>>> note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destinatio= n >>>>> of the packet. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Regards >>>>> Reji >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk wro= te: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture be= tter. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs= at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. Th= at is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> R. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> spring mailing list >>>>> spring@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-01BACA43-A038-48AA-8792-5E8FFECA9170 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gyan,

IPFRR doesn=E2=80=99= t use/need any IGP extensions and is local to the device computing LFA.
As RTGWG chair - I welcome you to read a number of rather well written= RFCs on the topic we have published in RTGWG over the last 7 years. 
Pay attention on how LFAs are computed, this would clarify your que= stion as to why there=E2=80=99s no need for additional imposition as well as= why LFA provides partial coverage.
There=E2=80=99s also TI-LFA dr= aft that explains how TI-LFA is computed and why it relies on additional imp= osition if LFA is unavailable.

Regards,
Jeff

On Sep 19, 2019, at 1= 8:06, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@g= mail.com> wrote:

Hi Robert 

I know we have gone through many many le= ngthy discussions adnosium and I know the question has come up a few times a= nd I know you replied back a few times related to the service provider use c= ase where we end up with the multiple violations of RFC 8200 related to inte= rmediate nodes EH insertion as well as many EH insertions occurring and what= was mentioned was Ti-LFA.  So since LFA and Remote LFA are extensions o= f the IGP providing the 50ms failover similar to traditional mpls Fast Rerou= te capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path protection in the legacy TE FRR p= ce the head end PE LSR adds and additional mpls shim for FRR.

=
With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions= opaque LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided b= y LFA loop free backup path.  In that scenario with LDP there is not an= y additional label with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA b= ackup path with LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tun= nled through the RLFA node.

So now talking SRv6 wit= h Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are not using mpls LDP and not d= oing remote LFA and this is not the traditional mpls TE FRR.

<= /div>
I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoin= t what the use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate n= ode as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and f= or that matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D= source routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the i= ntermediate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrit= e of IPv6 destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP= on the egress node of the service provider core.

I= designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their is a a= sic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we don=E2=80= =99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our path targeting= SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6.

Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think under= standing the use case would help 6man overall understand the justification o= f the RFC 8200 violations.

Thank you

=
Gyan Mishra
Verizon Communications 
Cell= 301 502-1347

Sent f= rom my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert R= aszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wro= te:

Hi Reji,

Notice what it says: " ... explicitly listed= intermediate nodes ... "

CRH which is used= in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes so I do not think the p= rocedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret them. 
=
But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and t= his thread become great education. 

An real ex= ample where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 which does put th= e addresses explicitly. 

Many thx,
Robert.<= /div>








On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 P= M Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gma= il.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,
=

>>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination A= ddress in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "fina= l destination" address ? 

S= ee Section 4.4 in RFC 8200.  Hope its clear what's the final destinatio= n and the context in which it is used.

      Segments Left       8-bit=
 unsigned integer.  Number of route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.


Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
IPv6 fixed h= eader has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is either a packet's d= estination or not. It can not be both. 

I do not kno= w what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed heade= r and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destination" address ?&= nbsp;

Many  thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 201= 9 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at ea=
ch IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200

 =46rom RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to b=
e the case or at least as I understand. See  Section 4=
..1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something?
 
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:

I disagre= e. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. The SRv6+ d= rafts explain the usecases better FYI.

Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to pro= cess all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per= RFC8200. That is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.&nb= sp;

Best,
R.


 
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[73.189.13.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c8sm264628pgw.37.2019.09.19.19.53.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Sep 2019 19:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7F120C1D-E1F3-44AB-AC27-D3AA484B267E Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jeff Tantsura X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2019 19:53:10 -0700 Cc: "Bernier, Daniel" , SING Team , SPRING WG List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <1568906072231.1bkuswxveutxvlrzmmzkgs2g@android.mail.163.com> <20625BDC-2D90-4E35-96E3-2BC4B723C06E@bell.ca> To: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 02:53:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail-7F120C1D-E1F3-44AB-AC27-D3AA484B267E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There=E2=80=99s number of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID f= or multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff > On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) wrote= : >=20 > +1. > =20 > As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. > We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always i= mportant. > =20 > Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on=E2=80=99t think anyone will still say we don=E2=80=99t need binding SID. > Let=E2=80=99s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-do= main routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted netw= ork domain. > =20 > Cheng > =20 > =20 > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel= > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM > To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > =20 > +1 > =20 > This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. > =20 > Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=E2=80=99t nee= d to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs > =20 > Dan > =20 > On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" wrote: > =20 > Hi Andrew, >=20 > Good to hear that reality experiment :) >=20 > But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted netwo= rk domain? >=20 > Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? >=20 > Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? >=20 > Best regards, > Moonlight Thoughts >=20 >=20 > (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) >=20 > On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston wrote: > Hi Guys,=20 >=20 > I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deploymen= ts and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and another= implementation.=20 >=20 > So - the setup we used last night:=20 >=20 > 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these= S1 -> S6=20 > 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the= networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3=20 >=20 > We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3= , with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID correspo= nding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc)=20 >=20 > Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. =20 >=20 > What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SI= D mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH'= s aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something w= e're seeing.=20 >=20 > Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be sign= aled between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share the= full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement w= ould be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering.=20 >=20 > I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something= that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons.=20 >=20 > Thanks=20 >=20 > Andrew=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________=20 > spring mailing list=20 > spring@ietf.org=20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring =20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-7F120C1D-E1F3-44AB-AC27-D3AA484B267E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There=E2=80=99s number of solutions on the m= arket that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer sign= aling.

Regards,
Jeff<= /div>

On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li= ) <chengli13@huawei.com> w= rote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before, B= inding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We should see the impor= tant part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the d= etails of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.

 

Since the EH insertion r= elated text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don=E2=80=99t think anyone= will still say we don=E2=80=99t need binding SID.

Let=E2=80=99s be honest= , Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is not s= ecure to share internal info outside a trusted network domain.

 

Cheng=

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i.= n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ie= tf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

+1

 

This is what we did o= n our multi-cloud trials.

 

Encap with Binding S= ID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=E2=80=99t need to have some sort of= inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

 

Dan

 

On 2= 019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Hi Andrew,
Good to hear that reality experiment :)
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappin= gs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6= , in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49, = ;Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of di= scussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things we= 've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK i= mplementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: <= br>
6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the o= pen internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the worl= d - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 -> R= 3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&g= t; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from t= he CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S= 3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) 
Then we sent some packets - and the test was ent= irely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two provi= ders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one ne= twork, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviously t= his relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're see= ing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and t= he SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on wi= th regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there would b= e no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would b= e only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. <= br>
I can say from our side - with various other pro= viders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole h= ost of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________&= nbsp;
spring mailing list 
spring@ietf= .org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring &nbs= p;

________= _______________________________________
spring mailing list<= /span>
spring@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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([169.254.6.58]) by DGGEML404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::b177:a243:7a69:5ab8%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:56:11 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Jeff Tantsura CC: "Bernier, Daniel" , SING Team , SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Thread-Index: AQHVbv3Xlk2MR63jbkCBydINl8HjY6cym9WAgAE+RPD//37hAIAAhnKA Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 02:56:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1568906072231.1bkuswxveutxvlrzmmzkgs2g@android.mail.163.com> <20625BDC-2D90-4E35-96E3-2BC4B723C06E@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.185.75] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026DDDD9dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet 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<02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:44:59 +0200 Message-ID: To: Gyan Mishra Cc: Reji Thomas , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000058955b0592f816b5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 08:45:13 -0000 --00000000000058955b0592f816b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gyan, > So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are > not using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional > mpls TE FRR. TI - stands for Topology Independent ... all other LFA modes rely on topologies to be able to compute or not the backup path. So why insertion/EH modification is needed ... well as I stated before there are few aspects of this and all must be taken into consideration. A) In most cases of topologies it may not be required - only in some special cases you may need to engineer your backup flows and then you either insert new EH or add another IP encap with such SRH in current SRv6 architecture. B) When you are doing node protection and PLR is adjucent to segment end node you should fixup such SRH (so modify it on PLR which is not packet destination) such that the packet will not try to return when LFA routed to N+1 segment end. Why A is option B clearly needs to be fixed or LFA style node protection of any segment end declared as not supported. Of course in bigger picture there any more protection methods to consider and only specific operator of transit or enterprise is in position to decide what works best for him. Many thx, R. On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:06 AM Gyan Mishra wrote: > Hi Robert > > I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium and I > know the question has come up a few times and I know you replied back a f= ew > times related to the service provider use case where we end up with the > multiple violations of RFC 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH insertio= n > as well as many EH insertions occurring and what was mentioned was Ti-LFA= . > So since LFA and Remote LFA are extensions of the IGP providing the 50ms > failover similar to traditional mpls Fast Reroute capabilities NH & NNH > link/node/path protection in the legacy TE FRR pce the head end PE LSR ad= ds > and additional mpls shim for FRR. > > With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions opaque > LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided by LFA= loop free > backup path. In that scenario with LDP there is not any additional label > with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA backup path with > LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tunnled through > the RLFA node. > > So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are no= t > using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional > mpls TE FRR. > > I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint what > the use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate node > as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and fo= r > that matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80= =9D source routing > via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the intermediate > nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrite of IPv6 > destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP on the > egress node of the service provider core. > > I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their i= s > a asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we > don=E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our pa= th > targeting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6. > > Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think > understanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the > justification of the RFC 8200 violations. > > Thank you > > Gyan Mishra > Verizon Communications > Cell 301 502-1347 > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi Reji, > > Notice what it says: *" ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... "* > > CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes so > I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret > them. > > But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread > become great education. > > An real example where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 whic= h > does put the addresses explicitly. > > Many thx, > Robert. > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas > wrote: > >> Hi Robert, >> >> >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address >> in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final >> destination" address ? >> >> See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200. Hope its clear what's the final destinatio= n >> and the context in which it is used. >> >> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route >> segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly >> listed intermediate nodes still to be visited >> before reaching the final destination. >> >> >> Regards >> >> Reji >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wrote= : >> >>> IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is >>> either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both. >>> >>> I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address i= n >>> the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final >>> destination" address ? >>> >>> Many thx, >>> R. >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Robert, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EH= s at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 >>>> >>>> >>>> From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I under= stand. See Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> IPv6 header >>>> Hop-by-Hop Options header >>>> Destination Options header (note 1) >>>> Routing header >>>> Fragment header >>>> Authentication header (note 2) >>>> Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) >>>> Destination Options header (note 3) >>>> Upper-Layer header >>>> >>>> note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination tha= t >>>> appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus >>>> subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. >>>> >>>> note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order = of >>>> the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload >>>> headers are given in [RFC4303 ]. >>>> >>>> note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destinatio= n >>>> of the packet. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Reji >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture >>>>>> better. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs >>>>> at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC82= 00. >>>>> That is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> R. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> spring mailing list >>>> spring@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --00000000000058955b0592f816b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Gyan,

> So now talking SRv6 with = Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are=C2=A0
> not usin= g mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional=C2=A0
> mpls TE FRR.=C2=A0

TI - stands for T= opology Independent ... all other LFA modes rely on topologies to be able t= o compute or not the backup path.=C2=A0

So why ins= ertion/EH modification is needed ... well as I stated before there are=C2= =A0 few aspects of this and all must be taken into consideration.=C2=A0

A) In most cases of topologies it may not be required= - only in some special cases you may need to engineer your backup flows an= d then you either insert new EH or add another IP encap with such SRH in cu= rrent SRv6 architecture.=C2=A0

B) When you are doi= ng node protection and PLR is adjucent to segment end node you should fixup= such SRH (so modify it on PLR which is not packet destination) such that t= he packet will not try to return when LFA routed to N+1 segment end.=C2=A0<= br>

Why A is option B clearly needs to be fixed or= LFA style node protection of any segment end declared as not supported.=C2= =A0

Of course in bigger picture there any more pro= tection methods to consider and only specific operator of transit or enterp= rise is in position to decide what works best for him.

=
Many thx,
R.













=C2=A0

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:06 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:<= br>
Hi Robert=C2=A0

I know we have gone through many many = lengthy discussions adnosium and I know the question has come up a few time= s and I know you replied back a few times related to the service provider u= se case where we end up with the multiple violations of RFC 8200 related to= intermediate nodes EH insertion as well as many EH insertions occurring an= d what was mentioned was Ti-LFA.=C2=A0 So since LFA and Remote LFA are exte= nsions of the IGP providing the 50ms failover similar to traditional mpls F= ast Reroute capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path protection in the lega= cy TE FRR pce the head end PE LSR adds and additional mpls shim for FRR.

With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are I= GP extensions opaque LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup p= ath provided by LFA loop free backup path.=C2=A0 In that scenario with LDP = there is not any additional label with LFA but with remote LFA is added for= the Remote LFA backup path with LDP session protection enabled with target= ed LDP session tunnled through the RLFA node.

So n= ow talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are not usin= g mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional mpls TE= FRR.

I am not getting it from a network engineeri= ng technical standpoint what the use case is and why EH insertion would occ= ur on any intermediate node as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on= the ingress LSR PE and for that matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is= =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D source routing via SRH pssi instructions and n= ot maintaining state on the intermediate nodes which just do the PSSI and c= opy the SRH destination rewrite of IPv6 destination for the traffic enginee= red path and then do PSP or USP on the egress node of the service provider = core.

I designed and manage a fairly large mpls co= re for Verizon and if their is a asic processing penalty hit due to interme= diate node EH insertion we don=E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with = LDP and stick with our path targeting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever g= oing to SRv6.

Thanks in advance for help in clarif= ication of this topic and I think understanding the use case would help 6ma= n overall understand the justification of the RFC 8200 violations.

Thank you

Gyan Mishra
V= erizon Communications=C2=A0
Cell 301 502-1347

Sent from= my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Ra= szuk <robert@rasz= uk.net> wrote:

Hi Reji,

Notice what it says: &qu= ot; ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... "
<= br>
CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermedi= ate nodes so I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way yo= u interpret them.=C2=A0

But I am i no way authorit= ative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread become great education.=C2=A0=

An real example where those procedure apply is do= cumented in RFC6554 which does put the addresses explicitly.=C2=A0

Many thx,
Robert.







On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com>= wrote:
Hi Robert,
<= br>
>>I do not know what is the difference betw= een IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed header and "final destinatio= n". Where do you carry "final destination" address ?=C2=A0

See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200.=C2= =A0 Hope its clear what's the final destination and the context in whic= h it is used.

      Segments Left     =
  8-bit unsigned integer.  Number of route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.


Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
IPv6 fi= xed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is either a pac= ket's destination or not. It can not be both.=C2=A0

= I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in th= e fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "= final destination" address ?=C2=A0

Many=C2=A0= thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>Well the crux=
 of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 desti=
nation which here means each transit node per RFC8200

 From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least=
 as I understand. See  Section 4.1 note 1 and note =
3. Am I missing something?
=C2=A0
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

=
Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robe= rt Raszuk <rraszu= k@gmail.com> wrote:

I disagree. PP= SI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. The SRv6+ draft= s explain the usecases better FYI.

Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to proc= ess all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per= RFC8200. That is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.= =C2=A0

Best,
R.


=C2=A0
<= /div> --------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
-------= -------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administr= ative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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Well so does TI-LFA. At some level you have to know the topology to calculate *any* path in SR, else how do you know what links and SIDs to use. When you use loose source routing that is even more the case. Moreover since TI-LFA specifies the need to align the repair path with the post convergence path you have to know the post convergence path to do that, and to do that someone must know the topology. I think a better description for the technology is that it is not constrained by topology, i.e. that you can create the repair path regardless of the topology, although the more perverse the topology the more SIDs are required. TI-LFA is only independent of the topology it that it can find a path regardless of the topology, not without knowledge of the topology. - Stewart From nobody Fri Sep 20 07:19:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E721201DE for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fnSBLL4owUQK for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BED91201DC for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id x134so7511269qkb.0 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:19:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VAWq+71tZbdGjij4eoY/51YIyzHWQdTvMNaDMqpHGQQ=; b=M68zGHxGsOjK3ubwQIPiiZwjCGrBUbea54kor3Kr+2ns8KcJvzNzFI6FOQqBmNJxa6 zECmyae4EzyxcnbXRZEBL4O2x7YpOtUHgpDdn/ct20EUQ0l2SGlmTupPHXSHKJL5kmFt DS3PYXONBhHE5dOOhjoCIeWURlrwx23z5vLl9pwhE0zGmm2xtGLfUt6x7XppADscAqBG srjELOp19fOREfLQQfBW49KeRMNUSKN/dXZmrN38cHfXVejKdp28IovcjhrQHG4Gou4x HAhV4PjVFrZDyS1dCnFgWmC7tzTS70GUrtQ4f4qNVnnHUJJLkwVkP4VkN2jCKzmt8pTL 0S7A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VAWq+71tZbdGjij4eoY/51YIyzHWQdTvMNaDMqpHGQQ=; b=iuFWABFkSfxP5aZGBcicZkud7Ktb4R7JUYh34gTFFu2+Vk3EjhWokQvpx/O1s6aZnR xQTVNf09clTmWKq/UbCCz6MD0mNccuoG48IrqnsQwSrP+//8oUrt2Gqt9SB5693qSQXp vr+YLUZTM1myy3/tGm2pU6Aj4gqq/W+XhTNXam48kRwrubHQvl5gfRONUBfI0J3b99vC aMCjaQts0cige0kSoZzkXt7t4TpynbOTrvH4qrCCaiBEtNtp3b8IJjgeNS2s0O8KOzyk o8OtOGursnYYZDKYLKV5PdnfmRlN1cWok5saa1jyBwwK4tVWOyKMad7XIUAPex4WJGc9 5HHw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWrFDLFv/7Zt61ab5NpW58YXTLNUK2y2AusgPcNHwQCgR6pyo5b raFG1RjXJe3IIjWFnuLyhoz4aQeW2LXWUuQbaTb0kw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz+L0ms8Cd1SsYQO7yrvapLWL5IHc2l884TLaeGuH/c74pMdEFckniyehfLHPFLCSqpqOxnB3Vo/G8RsFVQk+k= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6144:: with SMTP id v65mr3871635qkb.465.1568989152352; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 07:19:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> <02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> <22ffe893-046f-945e-7232-74352dd2c138@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <22ffe893-046f-945e-7232-74352dd2c138@gmail.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 16:18:57 +0200 Message-ID: To: Stewart Bryant Cc: Gyan Mishra , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , Reji Thomas , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000154e7e0592fcc1fb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 14:19:15 -0000 --000000000000154e7e0592fcc1fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Stewart, Yes this is exactly what I was trying to say. Your definition of TI-LFA as expressed below is spot on: "I think a better description for the technology is that it is not constrained by topology, i.e. that you can create the repair path regardless of the topology, although the more perverse the topology the more SIDs are required. " Thx, R. On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 4:16 PM Stewart Bryant wrote: > > > On 20/09/2019 09:44, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > TI - stands for Topology Independent ... all other LFA modes rely on > > topologies to be able to compute or not the backup path. > > Well so does TI-LFA. > > At some level you have to know the topology to calculate *any* path in > SR, else how do you know what links and SIDs to use. When you use loose > source routing that is even more the case. > > Moreover since TI-LFA specifies the need to align the repair path with > the post convergence path you have to know the post convergence path to > do that, and to do that someone must know the topology. > > I think a better description for the technology is that it is not > constrained by topology, i.e. that you can create the repair path > regardless of the topology, although the more perverse the topology the > more SIDs are required. > > TI-LFA is only independent of the topology it that it can find a path > regardless of the topology, not without knowledge of the topology. > > - Stewart > > > --000000000000154e7e0592fcc1fb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stewart,

Yes this is exactly what I = was trying to say. Your definition of TI-LFA as expressed below is spot on:= =C2=A0

"I think a better description for the = technology is that it is not
constrained by topology, i.e. that you can = create the repair path
regardless of the topology, although the more per= verse the topology the
more SIDs are required.=C2=A0"=C2=A0

Thx,
R.


On Fri, Sep 20,= 2019 at 4:16 PM Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com> wrote:


On 20/09/2019 09:44, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> TI - stands for Topology Independent ... all other LFA modes rely on <= br> > topologies to be able to compute or not the backup path.

Well so does TI-LFA.

At some level you have to know the topology to calculate *any* path in
SR, else how do you know what links and SIDs to use. When you use loose source routing that is even more the case.

Moreover since TI-LFA specifies the need to align the repair path with
the post convergence path you have to know the post convergence path to do that, and to do that someone must know the topology.

I think a better description for the technology is that it is not
constrained by topology, i.e. that you can create the repair path
regardless of the topology, although the more perverse the topology the more SIDs are required.

TI-LFA is only independent of the topology it that it can find a path
regardless of the topology, not without knowledge of the topology.

- Stewart


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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Likewise, SP core routers would ignore the PSSI and wouldn=92t even see the= PPSI. Ron From: Dirk Steinberg Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 7:40 PM To: Tom Herbert Cc: Darren Dukes (ddukes) ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRIN= G WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk ; Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir ; Tare= k Saad Subject: Re: [spring] =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP co= re). - Dirk On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert > wrote: On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes) > wrote: > > Hi Ron. > > I summarized my argument as follows: > "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you = will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups.=94 > > You=92ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+". Thanks. > Darren, How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6? Tom > You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second t= o saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate." > > Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6+" requires= ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6. > > Thanks > Darren > > > On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica > wrote: > > Hi Darren, > > I think that your argument can be summarized as follows: > > > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > > > Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me straight= . If so, please read on. > > First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that preced= es the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires four FIB s= earches, at most. > > Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case: > > > The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require onl= y one.) > The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-based d= evices, because of their role in the network, won=92t support any per segme= nt service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the PSSI. = That is why it is optional.) > > > So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches. > > So, you might now argue that: > > > SRv6 requires only two FIB searches > SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches > Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed > > > Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has two = relevant resources: > > > A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per second > Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per secon= d > > > So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate the= line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform has= a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. But= it=92s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not suffic= iently capable, of course, it will not forward at line speed. > > In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report on = the state of Juniper=92s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provide detai= ls, you can assume that we wouldn=92t be working on this if we thought that= performance was going to be sub-optimal. > > You also suggest that Juniper=92s is the only implementation. Are you sur= e that this is correct? > > = Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) > > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM > To: Ron Bonica > > Cc: Mark Smith >; E= XT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG >; 6= man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk >; Rob Shakir >; Tarek Saad > > Subject: =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding > > Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in the= number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementations = at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs. > > Is =93SRv6+=94 (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at line rate? > You=92ve been asked this several times. Since you=92re the only implemen= tor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am curious. > > Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties you w= ill not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple lookups. > > Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary leng= th DOH+set of PSSI=92s and other options is always very expensive. > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs in a= ny ASIC or NP. > > Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple ide= ntifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node. > 1 - lookup destination address > 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options. > 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label. > 4 - lookup new destination address > > Compare this with SRv6. > 1 - lookup destination address > 2 - lookup new destination address > > While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, these = technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI will not go= away. > > Darren > > > > On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica > wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB54634112BB290EB29B3DF4FBAE880BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Likewise, SP core routers would ignore the PSSI and = wouldn=92t even see the PPSI.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;       Ron

 

 

From: Dirk Steinberg <dirk@lapishills.com&= gt;
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 7:40 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; xiechf@chinatele= com.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robe= rt Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>= ; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com&g= t;
Subject: Re: [spring] =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding<= /o:p>

 

SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forw= arding (use case: SP core).

 

- Dirk

 

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 5:57 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:<= /o:p>

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:42 AM Darren Dukes (ddukes= ) <ddukes@cisco.co= m> wrote:
>
> Hi Ron.
>
> I summarized my argument as follows:
> "Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalt= ies you will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multipl= e lookups.=94
>
> You=92ve confirmed this additional overhead for "SRv6+".=   Thanks.
>

Darren,

How does one escape the performance penalty of TLV processing in SRV6?

Tom


> You then say "So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per = second to saturate the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate.&quo= t;
>
> Yes this is true, but we can conclude: The complexity of "SRv6= 3;" requires ASICs do much more work per packet vs SRv6.
>
> Thanks
>   Darren
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2019, at 9:59 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Darren,
>
> I think that your argument can be summarized as follows:
>
>
> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
> SRv6+ requires 4 or more FIB searches
> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed
>
>
> Have I summarized your argument correctly? If not, please set me strai= ght. If so, please read on.
>
> First, SRv6+ never requires more than 4 FIB searches. The DOH that= precedes the CRH contains, at most, one PSSI. Therefore SRv6+ requires= four FIB searches, at most.
>
> Second, SRv6+ only requires 4 FIB searches the following case:
>
>
> The packet contains two instances of the DOH. (Most use-cases require = only one.)
> The processing node is configured to process the PSSI. (Many ASIC-base= d devices, because of their role in the network, won=92t support any per se= gment service instructions. This nodes will be configured to ignore the PSS= I. That is why it is optional.)
>
>
> So, in most use-cases, SRv6+ requires only 3 FIB searches.
>
> So, you might now argue that:
>
>
> SRv6 requires only two FIB searches
> SRv6+ requires three and sometimes four FIB searches
> Therefore, SRv6+ cannot possibly forward at line speed
>
>
> Here, some slightly deeper thought might be required. A platform has t= wo relevant resources:
>
>
> A route lookup ASIC, that can process some number of packets per secon= d
> Some number of interfaces, that can forward some number of bits per se= cond
>
>
> So long as the ASIC can process enough packets per second to saturate = the line cards, we are forwarding at full line rate. So long as a platform = has a sufficiently capable ASIC, it will be able to forward at line speed. = But it=92s a matter of how the platform is designed. If the ASIC is not sufficiently capable, of course, it will n= ot forward at line speed.
>
> In your email, you say that I have been asked several times to report = on the state of Juniper=92s SRv6+ implementation. While I cannot provid= e details, you can assume that we wouldn=92t be working on this if we thoug= ht that performance was going to be sub-optimal.
>
> You also suggest that Juniper=92s is the only implementation. Are you = sure that this is correct?
>
>                    &= nbsp;                    =                     &nbs= p;                     &n= bsp;                     =             Ron
>
>
>
>
>
> Juniper Business Use Only
> From: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>
> Sent: Monday, September 16, 2019 4:38 PM
> To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
> Cc: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@= bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; xiechf@chinatel= ecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs= @google.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
> Subject: =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding
>
> Hi Ron, I agree ASICs are always improving, indeed this is evident in = the number of successful SRv6 deployments and multiple vendor implementatio= ns at line rate on merchant silicon, and multiple vendor ASICs.
>
> Is =93SRv6+=94 (PSSI+CRH+PPSI) implemented and deployed at= line rate?
> You=92ve been asked this several times.  Since you=92re the only = implementor(?) and one operator is claiming deployment or testing, I am cur= ious.
>
> Regardless of ASIC capabilities there are two performance penalties yo= u will not escape with PSSI+CRH+PPSI: TLV parsing and multiple look= ups.
>
> Requiring all segments in a CRH segment list to process an arbitrary l= ength DOH+set of PSSI=92s and other options is always very expensive. > - It is expensive in SRAM as previously discussed in these threads. > - It is expensive in parsing logic to know and process a set of TLVs i= n any ASIC or NP.
>
> Spreading PSSI, CRH, PPSI operations in multiple headers and multiple = identifiers you now have multiple lookups at a node.
> 1 - lookup destination address
> 2 - lookup one or more PSSI and future destination options.
> 3 - lookup the CRH label or PPSI label.
> 4 - lookup new destination address
>
> Compare this with SRv6.
> 1 - lookup destination address
> 2 - lookup new destination address
>
> While ASICs are more capable and will continue to be more capable, the= se technical performance problems you introduce with PSSI+CRH+PPSI = will not go away.
>
> Darren
>
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2019, at 12:34 PM, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf= .org> wrote:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
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([2600:1003:b026:7d3f:5151:d3f8:5a25:efa9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c126sm1324169qkd.13.2019.09.20.10.20.32 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:20:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B18202C3-5BD6-4887-B8E7-8FF0BBDAC16A Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 13:20:31 -0400 Cc: Robert Raszuk , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <982B4570-F379-4451-8F50-11C932E241B0@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> <02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> To: Jeff Tantsura Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 17:20:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail-B18202C3-5BD6-4887-B8E7-8FF0BBDAC16A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 19, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Jeff Tantsura wrot= e: >=20 > Gyan, >=20 > IPFRR doesn=E2=80=99t use/need any IGP extensions and is local to the devi= ce computing LFA. > As RTGWG chair - I welcome you to read a number of rather well written RFC= s on the topic we have published in RTGWG over the last 7 years.=20 > Pay attention on how LFAs are computed, this would clarify your question a= s to why there=E2=80=99s no need for additional imposition as well as why LFA= provides partial coverage. > There=E2=80=99s also TI-LFA draft that explains how TI-LFA is computed and= why it relies on additional imposition if LFA is unavailable. >=20 > Regards, > Jeff Thanks you Jeff! I am part of the RTGWG and will definitely read through all the RFCs as well= as Ti-LFA draft I detail. I read through RFC 5286 IP LFA the LFA algorithm uses the underlying IGP to f= or alternative loop free next hop for link and node protection but since it=E2= =80=99s the algorithm runs locally to build the =E2=80=9Cbackup=E2=80=9D pat= h pre programmed it does not require IGP extensions. =20 IP LFA is similar algorithm to the CISCO proprietary EIGRP topology loopfree= feasible successor backup paths. Am I stating that correctly reason why LFA= does not rely on IGP extensions. RFLA RFC 7490 - so I had a question - always wondered about - so RLFA is use= d when a LFA path does not exist so a ldp tunnel is built to the PQ node for= backup RLFA pre programmed path to get built. So when that LDP tunnel is b= uild an extra mpls shim is added to the label stack. Is that correct for RL= FA backup paths. Is it just a single shim or multiple to do the RLFA LDP tun= neling. I read through the Ti-LFA draft=20 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa= / So Ti-LFA uses loop free uses a traffic engineered IGP independent topology i= ndependent path that is desired with SR-MPLS or with SRv6 uses the EH SRH SI= D list for the pre programmed backup path. So an additional EH insertion ha= s to occur on the ingress PE to the SR or SRV6 domain. I have to read throu= gh more carefully but I am not seeing how an intermediate node would require= EH insertion since that function is always on the source node head end of t= he traffic engineered path. Regards, Gyan >> On Sep 19, 2019, at 18:06, Gyan Mishra wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Robert=20 >>=20 >> I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium and I k= now the question has come up a few times and I know you replied back a few t= imes related to the service provider use case where we end up with the multi= ple violations of RFC 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH insertion as wel= l as many EH insertions occurring and what was mentioned was Ti-LFA. So sin= ce LFA and Remote LFA are extensions of the IGP providing the 50ms failover s= imilar to traditional mpls Fast Reroute capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path= protection in the legacy TE FRR pce the head end PE LSR adds and additional= mpls shim for FRR. >>=20 >> With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions opaque L= SA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided by LFA loo= p free backup path. In that scenario with LDP there is not any additional l= abel with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA backup path wi= th LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tunnled through t= he RLFA node. >>=20 >> So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are no= t using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional mp= ls TE FRR. >>=20 >> I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint what t= he use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate node as t= hat even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and for that m= atter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D source= routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the intermed= iate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrite of IP= v6 destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP on the= egress node of the service provider core. >>=20 >> I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their i= s a asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we don= =E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our path tar= geting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6. >>=20 >> Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think und= erstanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the justification= of the RFC 8200 violations. >>=20 >> Thank you >>=20 >> Gyan Mishra >> Verizon Communications=20 >> Cell 301 502-1347 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>> On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Reji, >>>=20 >>> Notice what it says: " ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... " >>>=20 >>> CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes s= o I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret t= hem.=20 >>>=20 >>> But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread b= ecome great education.=20 >>>=20 >>> An real example where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 whi= ch does put the addresses explicitly.=20 >>>=20 >>> Many thx, >>> Robert. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas wr= ote: >>>> Hi Robert, >>>>=20 >>>> >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address= in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final dest= ination" address ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200. Hope its clear what's the final destinati= on and the context in which it is used. >>>>=20 >>>> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route >>>> segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitl= y >>>> listed intermediate nodes still to be visited= >>>> before reaching the final destination. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>> Reji >>>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wro= te: >>>>> IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is e= ither a packet's destination or not. It can not be both.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address i= n the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destin= ation" address ?=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Many thx, >>>>> R. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas w= rote: >>>>>> Hi Robert, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all E= Hs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =46rom RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I un= derstand. See Section 4..1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> IPv6 header >>>>>> Hop-by-Hop Options header >>>>>> Destination Options header (note 1) >>>>>> Routing header >>>>>> Fragment header >>>>>> Authentication header (note 2) >>>>>> Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) >>>>>> Destination Options header (note 3) >>>>>> Upper-Layer header >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination th= at >>>>>> appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus >>>>>> subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order= of >>>>>> the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload >>>>>> headers are given in [RFC4303]. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destinati= on >>>>>> of the packet. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Reji >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk w= rote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture b= etter. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EH= s at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. T= hat is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> R. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> spring mailing list >>>>>> spring@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-B18202C3-5BD6-4887-B8E7-8FF0BBDAC16A Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Sent from my iP= hone

On Sep 19, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Jeff Tantsura &= lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>= ; wrote:

Gyan,

=
IPFRR doesn=E2=80=99t use/need any IGP extensions and is local to= the device computing LFA.
As RTGWG chair - I welcome you to read a= number of rather well written RFCs on the topic we have published in RTGWG o= ver the last 7 years. 
Pay attention on how LFAs are computed= , this would clarify your question as to why there=E2=80=99s no need for add= itional imposition as well as why LFA provides partial coverage.
T= here=E2=80=99s also TI-LFA draft that explains how TI-LFA is computed and wh= y it relies on additional imposition if LFA is unavailable.

Regards,
Jeff


Thanks you Jeff!

I am part of the RTGWG and will definitely read through all the RFCs as we= ll as Ti-LFA draft I detail.

I read through RFC 528= 6 IP LFA the LFA algorithm uses the underlying IGP to for alternative loop f= ree next hop for link and node protection but since it=E2=80=99s the algorit= hm runs locally to build the =E2=80=9Cbackup=E2=80=9D path pre programmed it= does not require IGP extensions.  
IP LFA is similar algorit= hm to the CISCO proprietary EIGRP topology loopfree feasible successor backu= p paths.  Am I stating that correctly reason why LFA does not rely on I= GP extensions.

RFLA RFC 7490 - so I had a question -= always wondered about - so RLFA is used when a LFA path does not exist so a= ldp tunnel is built to the PQ node for backup RLFA pre programmed path to g= et built.  So when that LDP tunnel is build an extra mpls shim is added= to the label stack.  Is that correct for RLFA backup paths. Is it just= a single shim or multiple to do the RLFA LDP tunneling.

I read through the Ti-LFA draft 


So Ti-LFA uses loop free uses a traffi= c engineered IGP independent topology independent path that is desired with S= R-MPLS or with SRv6 uses the EH SRH SID list for the pre programmed backup p= ath.  So an additional EH insertion has to occur on the ingress PE to t= he SR or SRV6 domain.  I have to read through more carefully but I am n= ot seeing how an intermediate node would require EH insertion since that fun= ction is always on the source node head end of the traffic engineered path.<= /div>

Regards,

Gyan
On Sep 19, 2019, at 1= 8:06, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@g= mail.com> wrote:

Hi Robert 

I know we have gone through many many le= ngthy discussions adnosium and I know the question has come up a few times a= nd I know you replied back a few times related to the service provider use c= ase where we end up with the multiple violations of RFC 8200 related to inte= rmediate nodes EH insertion as well as many EH insertions occurring and what= was mentioned was Ti-LFA.  So since LFA and Remote LFA are extensions o= f the IGP providing the 50ms failover similar to traditional mpls Fast Rerou= te capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path protection in the legacy TE FRR p= ce the head end PE LSR adds and additional mpls shim for FRR.

=
With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions= opaque LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided b= y LFA loop free backup path.  In that scenario with LDP there is not an= y additional label with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA b= ackup path with LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tun= nled through the RLFA node.

So now talking SRv6 wit= h Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are not using mpls LDP and not d= oing remote LFA and this is not the traditional mpls TE FRR.

<= /div>
I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoin= t what the use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate n= ode as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and f= or that matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D= source routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the i= ntermediate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrit= e of IPv6 destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP= on the egress node of the service provider core.

I= designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their is a a= sic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we don=E2=80= =99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our path targeting= SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6.

Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think under= standing the use case would help 6man overall understand the justification o= f the RFC 8200 violations.

Thank you

=
Gyan Mishra
Verizon Communications 
Cell= 301 502-1347

Sent f= rom my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert R= aszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wro= te:

Hi Reji,

Notice what it says: " ... explicitly listed= intermediate nodes ... "

CRH which is used= in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes so I do not think the p= rocedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret them. 
=
But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and t= his thread become great education. 

An real ex= ample where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 which does put th= e addresses explicitly. 

Many thx,
Robert.<= /div>








On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 P= M Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gma= il.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,
=

>>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination A= ddress in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "fina= l destination" address ? 

S= ee Section 4.4 in RFC 8200.  Hope its clear what's the final destinatio= n and the context in which it is used.

      Segments Left       8-bit=
 unsigned integer.  Number of route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.


Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
IPv6 fixed h= eader has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is either a packet's d= estination or not. It can not be both. 

I do not kno= w what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed heade= r and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destination" address ?&= nbsp;

Many  thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 201= 9 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at ea=
ch IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200

 =46rom RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to b=
e the case or at least as I understand. See  Section 4=
..1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something?
 
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk <rraszuk@gmail.com> wrote:

I disagre= e. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. The SRv6+ d= rafts explain the usecases better FYI.

Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to pro= cess all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per= RFC8200. That is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.&nb= sp;

Best,
R.


 
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= --Apple-Mail-B18202C3-5BD6-4887-B8E7-8FF0BBDAC16A-- From nobody Fri Sep 20 10:21:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF503120099 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e16kvBZ0ABoA for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55D24120024 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id 3so7083975qta.1 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:21:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Qpg3ZVtUDLWgV7x8i084gisJ8CCFKlH2KfP2SMPmHSQ=; b=dfvRI43f9vI8d641xcQlPW6tWOkouqoD6VgrJFjLs+dd0UBQnBi7v6e7tmn020uBv4 164NQ/AakL66qWg74zu9xDQGwqNv8p/JPd3hnAUyDTa2d0i5JVv5Elkpy76qXhMQIWZx 1WcniQO/S2NE9eq2Dg3pADSDJICaT3DXf80lpz6pRG2g9uM5SmTYBXArzXy0HxAnlf8q NHGspVM0asNuoNMcJuKBQRY3iqUs0YxT4OspfgfEIPsWbRJTR+sWCtFWSonpaD/GwB9C lIoqlSWMPOy3n3KZ1cjZ2sR48NMWycz6tBREL13+2JHkdWwFkdfgvkpvegXY5lsvzZJK /7Bw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Qpg3ZVtUDLWgV7x8i084gisJ8CCFKlH2KfP2SMPmHSQ=; b=ifRoqyQMKSxH0JfzPnmMoUa0OZl15fIhB2gXFpt5d5zSFhLXg9U19UtZlqkbUCyvCH tcjcklmls77p46BNFFkmzdqK7gyUPn41pj8om21WAmoFUFlLlESFOTPMHarg/W0IoJ9j f9vA4fNT+8Xav/fY0K10/daqGTMCwyqrd/bJyC8SKVBe4CNrZSN7LnEVZXtE1OiVKnIb YDp5rJQR8JJhLMUmClJd/tUb1rF0Y//9Kg1x+D3TiSvF3T6U92buU4JOZwVq7Bh5zqKW vzNmuhsCGkHriywtn7ySqvfkN2cgmKiW87YjK+CsLkZf552761doIZaV6+Lz74PX967W +9wA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWM2mioYoNirfp2uoOodRD+Er+3mBNUB3HjikZ71YMRdFyMEbUn RGC8xYe0/XDBwOdqCg0rc/AfA9UZqP5vWKlE7F22rg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzCPxA+prJlrmfieaGEvBWVR7O4uAfVPpJN1iAF3N4r+KzEw+HFPxhL3NDpTGa4t0UB+Fy6I3B9xa0EgMRtSBo= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f84d:: with SMTP id g13mr13961240qvo.217.1569000100287; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 10:21:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 19:21:30 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Dirk Steinberg , Tom Herbert , "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a16fbe0592ff4d13" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 17:21:44 -0000 --000000000000a16fbe0592ff4d13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, No one is questioning that. If packet's destination is not a local address of a router all options can be ignored. Fun however starts when destination address in the packet *is* a local address on the router ie. the router is acting as Segment Endpoint. Thx, R. On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 7:09 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Likewise, SP core routers would ignore the PSSI and wouldn=E2=80=99t even= see the > PPSI. > > > > Ron > > > > > *From:* Dirk Steinberg > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 18, 2019 7:40 PM > *To:* Tom Herbert > *Cc:* Darren Dukes (ddukes) ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; > SPRING WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk < > robert@raszuk.net>; Ron Bonica ; Rob Shakir < > robjs@google.com>; Tarek Saad > *Subject:* Re: [spring] =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwarding > > > > SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP > core). > > > > - Dirk > --000000000000a16fbe0592ff4d13 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

No one is ques= tioning that. If packet's destination is not a local address of a route= r all options can be ignored.=C2=A0

Fun however st= arts when destination address in the packet *is* a local address on the rou= ter ie. the router is acting as Segment Endpoint.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 7:09 PM Ron Bonica &l= t;rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:=

Likewise, SP core routers would ignore the PSSI and = wouldn=E2=80=99t even see the PPSI.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=

= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Dirk Steinberg <dirk@lapishills.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 7:40 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6ma= n <6man@ietf.org&= gt;; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>;= Tarek Saad <ts= aad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] =E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D complexity in forwardi= ng

=C2=A0

SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forw= arding (use case: SP core).

=C2=A0

- Dirk

=
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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, Even then, the core SP router may ignore the PSSI. Recall that the first two bits of the PSSI option are 00. This means that i= f the processing node doesn=92t recognize the PSSI, or is configured to ign= ore the PSSI, it will simple skip over the PSSI. In most cases, core SP routers will be configured to ignore the PSSI. = Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 1:22 PM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Dirk Steinberg ; Tom Herbert = ; Darren Dukes (ddukes) ; xiechf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING = WG ; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Rob Shakir ; = Tarek Saad Subject: Re: [spring] =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding Hi Ron, No one is questioning that. If packet's destination is not a local address = of a router all options can be ignored. Fun however starts when destination address in the packet *is* a local addr= ess on the router ie. the router is acting as Segment Endpoint. Thx, R. On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 7:09 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Likewise, SP core routers would ignore the PSSI and wouldn=92t even see the= PPSI. Ron From: Dirk Steinberg > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 7:40 PM To: Tom Herbert > Cc: Darren Dukes (ddukes) >; xiec= hf@chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG >; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Ro= bert Raszuk >; Ron Bonica >; Rob Shakir >; Tarek Saad > Subject: Re: [spring] =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use case: SP co= re). - Dirk Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB546399AFDFE4D13FF853A0ACAE880BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

Even then, the core SP router may ignore the PSSI.

 

Recall that the first two bits of the PSSI option ar= e 00. This means that if the processing node doesn=92t recognize the PSSI, = or is configured to ignore the PSSI, it will simple skip over the PSSI.

 

In most cases, core SP routers will be configured to= ignore the PSSI.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     Ron

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 1:22 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Dirk Steinberg <dirk@lapishills.com>; Tom Herbert <tom@= herbertland.com>; Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; xiechf= @chinatelecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org= >; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.c= om>
Subject: Re: [spring] =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding<= /o:p>

 

Hi Ron,

 

No one is questioning that. If packet's destination = is not a local address of a router all options can be ignored. 

 

Fun however starts when destination address in the p= acket *is* a local address on the router ie. the router is acting as Segmen= t Endpoint. 

 

Thx,

R.

 

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 7:09 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

Likewise, SP core routers would ignore the PSSI and wouldn=92t eve= n see the PPSI.

 

           =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;     Ron

 

 

From: Dirk Steinberg <dirk@lapishills.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 7:40 PM
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com>; xiechf@chinatel= ecom.cn; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man <6man@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>; Ron Bonica <rb= onica@juniper.net>; Rob Shakir <robjs@google.com>; Tarek Saad <tsaad.net@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] =93SRV6+=94 complexity in forwarding<= /o:p>

 

SRv6 does not require TLV processing for normal forwarding (use ca= se: SP core).

 

- Dirk

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <= daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There's number of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID for mul= ti-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on't think anyone will still say we don't need binding SID. Let's be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain rout= ing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network doma= in. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don't need to have= some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BYAPR05MB546372D1E0559F75D7DA5F61AE880BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6= +. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

 

However, there is another way to get exactly the sam= e behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB en= try:

 

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID ty= pe: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also have the following route on= Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified de= stination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a bin= ding SID.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            Ron=

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bern= ier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.= org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

There’s number of solutions on the market that= extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before,= Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We should see the impo= rtant part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the= details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.=

 

Since the EH insertion= related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyon= e will still say we don’t need binding SID.

Let’s be honest,= Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is not s= ecure to share internal info outside a trusted network domain.<= /o:p>

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

+1 =

 <= /o:p>

This is what we did= on our multi-cloud trials.

 <= /o:p>

Encap with Binding = SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don’t need to have some sor= t of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

 <= /o:p>

Dan

 <= /o:p>

On 2= 019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf o= f s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

&nbs= p;

Hi Andrew,
Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49,&nb= sp;Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: =

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________=  
spring mailing list 
spring@iet= f..org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/Spring  

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

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Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.5.194] ([50.235.77.202]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c64sm3460095pfc.19.2019.09.20.11.30.36 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 11:30:28 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Gyan Mishra Cc: Robert Raszuk , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , "=?utf-8?Q?xiechf=40chinatelecom.cn?=" , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Message-ID: <5575c33f-2152-4753-99e1-81acdbf34749@Spark> In-Reply-To: <982B4570-F379-4451-8F50-11C932E241B0@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> <02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> <982B4570-F379-4451-8F50-11C932E241B0@gmail.com> X-Readdle-Message-ID: 5575c33f-2152-4753-99e1-81acdbf34749@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5d851acb_77ae35eb_2a6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9CSRV6+=E2=80=9D_?=complexity in forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 18:30:44 -0000 --5d851acb_77ae35eb_2a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi=C2=A0Gyan, Always a pleasure=21 See inline, please =C2=A0let me know if you have got any other questions.= Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 10:20 AM -0700, Gyan Mishra , w= rote: > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Jeff Tantsura = wrote: > > > Gyan, > > > > IP=46RR doesn=E2=80=99t use/need any IGP extensions and is local to t= he device computing L=46A. > > As RTGWG chair - I welcome you to read a number of rather well writte= n R=46Cs on the topic we have published in RTGWG over the last 7 years. > > Pay attention on how L=46As are computed, this would clarify your que= stion as to why there=E2=80=99s no need for additional imposition as well= as why L=46A provides partial coverage. > > There=E2=80=99s also TI-L=46A draft that explains how TI-L=46A is com= puted and why it relies on additional imposition if L=46A is unavailable.= > > > > Regards, > > Jeff > > > > Thanks you Jeff=21 > > I am part of the RTGWG and will definitely read through all the R=46Cs = as well as Ti-L=46A draft I detail. > > I read through R=46C 5286 IP L=46A the L=46A algorithm uses the underly= ing IGP to for alternative loop free next hop for link and node protectio= n but since it=E2=80=99s the algorithm runs locally to build the =E2=80=9C= backup=E2=80=9D path pre programmed it does not require IGP extensions. > IP L=46A is similar algorithm to the CISCO proprietary EIGRP topology l= oopfree feasible successor backup paths. =C2=A0Am I stating that correctl= y reason why L=46A does not rely on IGP extensions. =5Bjeff=5D IP L=46A relies on the fact that in LS routing protocols, all = routers in area/level share same LSDB, hence L=46A's can be computed, DUA= L (EIGRP) has some similarities, you could further read R=46C7868 (=46eas= ibility Condition) > > R=46LA R=46C 7490 - so I had a question - always wondered about - so RL= =46A is used when a L=46A path does not exist so a ldp tunnel is built to= the PQ node for backup RL=46A pre programmed path to get built. =5Bjeff=5D it is a local policy matter, in the implementation I worked on= , this was the default behavior. > =C2=A0 So when that LDP tunnel is build an extra mpls shim is added to = the label stack. =C2=A0Is that correct for RL=46A backup paths. Is it jus= t a single shim or multiple to do the RL=46A LDP tunneling. =5Bjeff=5D this is a single MPLS(transport) label > > I read through the Ti-L=46A draft =5Bjeff=5D we have adopted the draft as wg document, it has been updated,= please read draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa-01 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-t= i-lfa/ > > So Ti-L=46A uses loop free uses a traffic engineered IGP independent to= pology independent path that is desired with SR-MPLS or with SRv6 uses th= e EH SRH SID list for the pre programmed backup path. =C2=A0So an additio= nal EH insertion has to occur on the ingress PE to the SR or SRV6 domain.= =5Bjeff=5D No, the insertion is happening at the PLR (point of local repa= ir) and is local to the PLR, if a backup path is instantiated at head-end= /ingress PE, we are talking about =E2=80=9Cpath protection=E2=80=9D, e.g.= - when head-end desired to switch over to a backup path it does so witho= ut help of any intermediate nodes. > =C2=A0I have to read through more carefully but I am not seeing how an = intermediate node would require EH insertion since that function is alway= s on the source node head end of the traffic engineered path. =5Bjeff=5D see my previous comment, it is indeed the intermediate node (P= LR) that computes L=46A and if PQ node is not available thru shortest pat= h (think ring topology) it has to impose additional piece of data-plane i= nformation (MPLS labels/EHs) that would be used by intermediated nodes to= get to the PQ node. > > Regards, > > Gyan > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 18:06, Gyan Mishra wrot= e: > > > > > Hi Robert > > > > > > I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium = and I know the question has come up a few times and I know you replied ba= ck a few times related to the service provider use case where we end up w= ith the multiple violations of R=46C 8200 related to intermediate nodes E= H insertion as well as many EH insertions occurring and what was mentione= d was Ti-L=46A. =C2=A0So since L=46A and Remote L=46A are extensions of t= he IGP providing the 50ms failover similar to traditional mpls =46ast Rer= oute capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path protection in the legacy TE =46= RR pce the head end PE LSR adds and additional mpls shim for =46RR. > > > > > > With IP L=46A and remote L=46A used with LDP there are IGP extensio= ns opaque LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provi= ded by L=46A loop free backup path. =C2=A0In that scenario with LDP there= is not any additional label with L=46A but with remote L=46A is added fo= r the Remote L=46A backup path with LDP session protection enabled with t= argeted LDP session tunnled through the RL=46A node. > > > > > > So now talking SRv6 with Ti L=46A why is there an EH insertion as w= e are not using mpls LDP and not doing remote L=46A and this is not the t= raditional mpls TE =46RR. > > > > > > I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint= what the use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediat= e node as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE= and for that matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative = TE=E2=80=9D source routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining = state on the intermediate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH d= estination rewrite of IPv6 destination for the traffic engineered path an= d then do PSP or USP on the egress node of the service provider core. > > > > > > I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if t= heir is a asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH inserti= on we don=E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with = our path targeting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6. > > > > > > Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I thi= nk understanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the just= ification of the R=46C 8200 violations. > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Gyan Mishra > > > Verizon Communications > > > Cell 301 502-1347 > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk wr= ote: > > > > > > > Hi Reji, > > > > > > > > Notice what it says: =22 ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes= ... =22 > > > > > > > > CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate = nodes so I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you = interpret them. > > > > > > > > But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this = thread become great education. > > > > > > > > An real example where those procedure apply is documented in R=46= C6554 which does put the addresses explicitly. > > > > > > > > Many thx, > > > > Robert. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas wrote: > > > > > > Hi Robert, > > > > > > > > > > > > >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destinati= on Address in the fixed header and =22final destination=22. Where do you = carry =22final destination=22 address =3F > > > > > > > > > > > > See Section 4.4 in R=46C 8200.=C2=A0 Hope its clear what's th= e final destination and the context in which it is used. > > > > > > > > > > > > Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of r= oute > > > > > > segments remaining, i.e., number of = explicitly > > > > > > listed intermediate nodes still to b= e visited > > > > > > before reaching the final destinatio= n. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Reji > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > > > > > IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE= midpoint is either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destina= tion Address in the fixed header and =22final destination=22. Where do yo= u carry =22final destination=22 address =3F > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many=C2=A0 thx, > > > > > > > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Robert, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need = to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit= node per R=46C8200 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =46rom R=46C 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or= at least as I understand. See Section 4..1 note 1 and note 3. Am I miss= ing something=3F > > > > > > > > > > IPv6 header > > > > > > > > > > Hop-by-Hop Options header > > > > > > > > > > Destination Options header (note 1) > > > > > > > > > > Routing header > > > > > > > > > > =46ragment header > > > > > > > > > > Authentication header (note 2) > > > > > > > > > > Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) > > > > > > > > > > Destination Options header (note 3) > > > > > > > > > > Upper-Layer header > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > note 1: for options to be processed by the first= destination that > > > > > > > > > > appears in the IPv6 Destination Address = field plus > > > > > > > > > > subsequent destinations listed in the Ro= uting header. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > note 2: additional recommendations regarding the= relative order of > > > > > > > > > > the Authentication and Encapsulating Sec= urity Payload > > > > > > > > > > headers are given in =5BR=46C4303=5D. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > note 3: for options to be processed only by the = final destination > > > > > > > > > > of the packet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > Reji > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs = in IPv6 architecture better. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better= =46YI. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well the crux of the matter is that you still n= eed to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means each tra= nsit node per R=46C8200. That is regardless what any other spec says ....= unfortunately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > > > > > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------= ------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > IET=46 IPv6 working group mailing list > > > > > > > > > > > > ipv6=40ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------= ------------------- > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F > > > > > > > > > > spring mailing list > > > > > > > > > > spring=40ietf.org > > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > > > IET=46 IPv6 working group mailing list > > > > ipv6=40ietf.org > > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ip= v6 > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= --- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > IET=46 IPv6 working group mailing list > > > ipv6=40ietf.org > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6= > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - --5d851acb_77ae35eb_2a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Hi&=23160;Gyan,

Always a pleasure=21
See inline, please &=23160;let me know if you have = got any other questions.

Cheers,
Jeff
On Sep 20, 2019, 10:20 AM -0700, Gy= an Mishra <hayabusagsm=40gmail.com>, wrote:


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf=40gmail.com> wrote:

Gyan,

IP=46RR doesn=E2=80=99t use/need any IGP extensions and is local to = the device computing L=46A.
As RTGWG chair - I welcome you to read a number of rather well writt= en R=46Cs on the topic we have published in RTGWG over the last 7 years.&= =23160;
Pay attention on how L=46As are computed, this would clarify your qu= estion as to why there=E2=80=99s no need for additional imposition as wel= l as why L=46A provides partial coverage.
There=E2=80=99s also TI-L=46A draft that explains how TI-L=46A is co= mputed and why it relies on additional imposition if L=46A is unavailable= .

Regards,
Jeff


Thanks you Jeff=21

I am part of the RTGWG and will definitely read through all the R=46= Cs as well as Ti-L=46A draft I detail.

I read through R=46C 5286 IP L=46A the L=46A algorithm uses the unde= rlying IGP to for alternative loop free next hop for link and node protec= tion but since it=E2=80=99s the algorithm runs locally to build the =E2=80= =9Cbackup=E2=80=9D path pre programmed it does not require IGP extensions= . &=23160;
IP L=46A is similar algorithm to the CISCO proprietary EIGRP topolog= y loopfree feasible successor backup paths. &=23160;Am I stating that cor= rectly reason why L=46A does not rely on IGP extensions.&=23160;
=5Bjeff=5D IP L=46A relies on the fact that in LS routing protocols,= all routers in area/level share same LSDB, hence L=46A's can be computed= , DUAL (EIGRP) has some similarities, you could further read R=46C7868 (=46= easibility Condition)

R=46LA R=46C 7490 - so I had a question - always wondered about - so= RL=46A is used when a L=46A path does not exist so a ldp tunnel is built= to the PQ node for backup RL=46A pre programmed path to get built.
=
=5Bjeff=5D it is a= local policy matter, in the implementation I worked on, this was the def= ault behavior.&=23160;

&=23160; So when that LDP tunnel is build an extra mpls shim is adde= d to the label stack. &=23160;Is that correct for RL=46A backup paths. Is= it just a single shim or multiple to do the RL=46A LDP tunneling. &=2316= 0;
=5Bjeff=5D this is a single MPLS(transport) label&=23160;

I read through the Ti-L=46A draft &=23160;
=5Bjeff=5D we have adopted the draft as wg document, it has been upd= ated, please read draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa-01&=23160;


So Ti-L=46A uses loop free uses a traffic engineered IGP independent= topology independent path that is desired with SR-MPLS or with SRv6 uses= the EH SRH SID list for the pre programmed backup path. &=23160;So an ad= ditional EH insertion has to occur on the ingress PE to the SR or SRV6 do= main. &=23160;
=5Bjeff=5D No, the insertion is happening at the PLR (point of local= repair) and is local to the PLR, if a backup path is instantiated at hea= d-end/ingress PE, we are talking about =E2=80=9Cpath protection=E2=80=9D,= e.g. - when head-end desired to switch over to a backup path it does so = without help of any intermediate nodes.
&=23160;I have to read through more carefully but I am not seeing ho= w an intermediate node would require EH insertion since that function is = always on the source node head end of the traffic engineered path.&=23160= ;
=5Bjeff=5D see my previous comment, it is indeed the intermediate no= de (PLR) that computes L=46A and if PQ node is not available thru shortes= t path (think ring topology) it has to impose additional piece of data-pl= ane information (MPLS labels/EHs) that would be used by intermediated nod= es to get to the PQ node. &=23160;

Regards,

Gyan
On Sep 19, 2019, at 18:06, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm=40gmail.com> wrot= e:

Hi Robert&=23160;

I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium a= nd I know the question has come up a few times and I know you replied bac= k a few times related to the service provider use case where we end up wi= th the multiple violations of R=46C 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH= insertion as well as many EH insertions occurring and what was mentioned= was Ti-L=46A. &=23160;So since L=46A and Remote L=46A are extensions of = the IGP providing the 50ms failover similar to traditional mpls =46ast Re= route capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path protection in the legacy T= E =46RR pce the head end PE LSR adds and additional mpls shim for =46RR.<= /div>

With IP L=46A and remote L=46A used with LDP there are IGP extension= s opaque LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provid= ed by L=46A loop free backup path. &=23160;In that scenario with LDP ther= e is not any additional label with L=46A but with remote L=46A is added f= or the Remote L=46A backup path with LDP session protection enabled with = targeted LDP session tunnled through the RL=46A node.

So now talking SRv6 with Ti L=46A why is there an EH insertion as we= are not using mpls LDP and not doing remote L=46A and this is not the tr= aditional mpls TE =46RR.

I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint = what the use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate= node as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE = and for that matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative T= E=E2=80=9D source routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining s= tate on the intermediate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH de= stination rewrite of IPv6 destination for the traffic engineered path and= then do PSP or USP on the egress node of the service provider core.

I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if th= eir is a asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertio= n we don=E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with o= ur path targeting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6.

Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I thin= k understanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the justi= fication of the R=46C 8200 violations.

Thank you

Gyan Mishra
Verizon Communications&=23160;
Cell 301 502-1347

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert=40raszuk.net> wrote:

Hi Reji,

Notice what it says: =22 ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes= ... =22

CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nod= es so I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you int= erpret them.&=23160;

But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thr= ead become great education.&=23160;

An real example where those procedure apply is documented in R=46C65= 54 which does put the addresses explicitly.&=23160;

Many thx,
Robert.








On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9= :14 PM Reji Thomas <re= jithomas.d=40gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destinati= on Address in the fixed header and =22final destination=22. Where do you = carry =22final destination=22 address =3F&=23160;

See Section 4.4 in R=46C 8200.&=23160; Hope its clear what's the fin= al destination and the context in which it is used.

    =
  Segments Left       8-bit unsigned integer.  Number of route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.


Rega=
rds
Reji=

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1= 0:26 PM Robert Raszuk <robert=40raszuk.net> wrote:
IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. = So TE midpoint is either a packet's destination or not. It can not be bot= h.&=23160;

I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Addres= s in the fixed header and =22final destination=22. Where do you carry =22= final destination=22 address =3F&=23160;

Many&=23160; thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6= :17 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d=40gmail.com> wrote:
= 
Hi Robert,

>>Well the crux of the matter is that yo=
u still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination which here means=
 each transit node per R=46C8200

 =46rom R=46C 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at le=
ast as I understand. See  Section 4..1 note=
 1 and note 3. Am I missing something=3F
 
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      =46ragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in =5BR=46C4303=5D.

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9= :00 PM Robert Raszuk <rraszuk=40gmail.com> wrote:

I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture be= tter. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better =46YI.

Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at= each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per R=46C8200. = That is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.&=23160;

Best,
R.


&=23160;
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> See inline, please let me know if you have got any other questions. > > [Gyan] Thanks Jeff for the detailed responses! > I am with Verizon Communications and SME of Verizon's Network Engineering & Technology org and head up their Planning, Engineering & Design & Proof of concept lab so represent Verizon at the IETF from an "operators" perspective for real world use cases as well as industry needs standpoint and so to be on top of new and upcoming technologies have been part of the IETF Working Groups below related to Routing & Internet of which as we can see on this thread has a lot of overlap between many working groups. 6MAN (IPv6 Maintenance) WG MPLS (Multi Protocol Label Switching) WG LSR (Link State Routing) WG RTG-BFD (Routing Group - Bi Directional Forwarding) WG SPRING (Source Packet Routing in Network) WG NFVCON (Network Function Virtualization) WG PALS (Pseudowire And LDP-enabled Services) WG RTGWG (Routing Area Working Group) WG TEAs (Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling) WG QUIC (QUIC UDP Internet Connections) WG PIM (Protocol Independent Multicasting) WG BESS (BGP Enabled Services) WG [comments in-line] Cheers, Gyan > Cheers, > Jeff > On Sep 20, 2019, 10:20 AM -0700, Gyan Mishra , > wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Jeff Tantsura > wrote: > > Gyan, > > IPFRR doesn=E2=80=99t use/need any IGP extensions and is local to the dev= ice > computing LFA. > As RTGWG chair - I welcome you to read a number of rather well written > RFCs on the topic we have published in RTGWG over the last 7 years. > Pay attention on how LFAs are computed, this would clarify your question > as to why there=E2=80=99s no need for additional imposition as well as wh= y LFA > provides partial coverage. > There=E2=80=99s also TI-LFA draft that explains how TI-LFA is computed an= d why it > relies on additional imposition if LFA is unavailable. > > Regards, > Jeff > > > Thanks you Jeff! > > I am part of the RTGWG and will definitely read through all the RFCs as > well as Ti-LFA draft I detail. > > I read through RFC 5286 IP LFA the LFA algorithm uses the underlying IGP > to for alternative loop free next hop for link and node protection but > since it=E2=80=99s the algorithm runs locally to build the =E2=80=9Cbacku= p=E2=80=9D path pre > programmed it does not require IGP extensions. > IP LFA is similar algorithm to the CISCO proprietary EIGRP topology > loopfree feasible successor backup paths. Am I stating that correctly > reason why LFA does not rely on IGP extensions. > > [jeff] IP LFA relies on the fact that in LS routing protocols, all router= s > in area/level share same LSDB, hence LFA's can be computed, DUAL (EIGRP) > has some similarities, you could further read RFC7868 (Feasibility > Condition) > > > RFLA RFC 7490 - so I had a question - always wondered about - so RLFA is > used when a LFA path does not exist so a ldp tunnel is built to the PQ no= de > for backup RLFA pre programmed path to get built. > > [jeff] it is a local policy matter, in the implementation I worked on, > this was the default behavior. > > So when that LDP tunnel is build an extra mpls shim is added to the > label stack. Is that correct for RLFA backup paths. Is it just a single > shim or multiple to do the RLFA LDP tunneling. > > [jeff] this is a single MPLS(transport) label > > > I read through the Ti-LFA draft > > [jeff] we have adopted the draft as wg document, it has been updated, > please read draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa-01 > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-= lfa/ > > So Ti-LFA uses loop free uses a traffic engineered IGP independent > topology independent path that is desired with SR-MPLS or with SRv6 uses > the EH SRH SID list for the pre programmed backup path. So an additional > EH insertion has to occur on the ingress PE to the SR or SRV6 domain. > > [jeff] No, the insertion is happening at the PLR (point of local repair) > and is local to the PLR, if a backup path is instantiated at > head-end/ingress PE, we are talking about =E2=80=9Cpath protection=E2=80= =9D, e.g. - when > head-end desired to switch over to a backup path it does so without help = of > any intermediate nodes. > > I have to read through more carefully but I am not seeing how an > intermediate node would require EH insertion since that function is alway= s > on the source node head end of the traffic engineered path. > > [jeff] see my previous comment, it is indeed the intermediate node (PLR) > that computes LFA and if PQ node is not available thru shortest path (thi= nk > ring topology) it has to impose additional piece of data-plane informatio= n > (MPLS labels/EHs) that would be used by intermediated nodes to get to the > PQ node. > > [Gyan] So that makes sense now why the intermediate node EH insertion is > required at the (PLR) intermediate node that computes LFA and if LFA is n= ot > available through the IGP SPF local topology database a single EH SRH > header needs be inserted at the PLR node for the PSSI segment SR source > route list to source route traffic engineer along the protected path to t= he > egress PQ node. > > In some of the discussion I heard rumblings about TLVs processing on the intermediate node and performance hit with EH insertion & TLV processing hit impacting asic line rate performance. How do we get around that issue with intermediate node EH insertion impacting performance for Ti-LFA. Also is Ti-LFA the only use case that requires EH insertion? > Regards, > > Gyan > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 18:06, Gyan Mishra wrote: > > Hi Robert > > I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium and I > know the question has come up a few times and I know you replied back a f= ew > times related to the service provider use case where we end up with the > multiple violations of RFC 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH insertio= n > as well as many EH insertions occurring and what was mentioned was Ti-LFA= . > So since LFA and Remote LFA are extensions of the IGP providing the 50ms > failover similar to traditional mpls Fast Reroute capabilities NH & NNH > link/node/path protection in the legacy TE FRR pce the head end PE LSR ad= ds > and additional mpls shim for FRR. > > With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions opaque > LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided by LFA= loop free > backup path. In that scenario with LDP there is not any additional label > with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA backup path with > LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tunnled through > the RLFA node. > > So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are no= t > using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional > mpls TE FRR. > > I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint what > the use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate node > as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and fo= r > that matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80= =9D source routing > via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the intermediate > nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrite of IPv6 > destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP on the > egress node of the service provider core. > > I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their i= s > a asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we > don=E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our pa= th > targeting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6. > > Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think > understanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the > justification of the RFC 8200 violations. > > Thank you > > Gyan Mishra > Verizon Communications > Cell 301 502-1347 > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi Reji, > > Notice what it says: *" ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... "* > > CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes so > I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret > them. > > But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread > become great education. > > An real example where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 whic= h > does put the addresses explicitly. > > Many thx, > Robert. > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas > wrote: > >> Hi Robert, >> >> >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address >> in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final >> destination" address ? >> >> See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200. Hope its clear what's the final destinatio= n >> and the context in which it is used. >> >> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route >> segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly >> listed intermediate nodes still to be visited >> before reaching the final destination. >> >> >> Regards >> >> Reji >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wrote= : >> >>> IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is >>> either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both. >>> >>> I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address i= n >>> the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final >>> destination" address ? >>> >>> Many thx, >>> R. >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Robert, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EH= s at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 >>>> >>>> >>>> From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I under= stand. See Section 4..1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? >>>> >>>> IPv6 header >>>> Hop-by-Hop Options header >>>> Destination Options header (note 1) >>>> Routing header >>>> Fragment header >>>> Authentication header (note 2) >>>> Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) >>>> Destination Options header (note 3) >>>> Upper-Layer header >>>> >>>> note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination tha= t >>>> appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus >>>> subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. >>>> >>>> note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order = of >>>> the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload >>>> headers are given in [RFC4303 ]. >>>> >>>> note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destinatio= n >>>> of the packet. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Reji >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture >>>>>> better. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs >>>>> at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC82= 00. >>>>> That is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> R. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> spring mailing list >>>> spring@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --=20 Gyan S. Mishra IT Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor Silver Spring, MD 20904 United States Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com www.linkedin.com/in/GYAN-MISHRA-RS-SP-MPLS-IPV6-EXPERT --0000000000002dc8dc0593017e57 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 2:30 PM Jeff = Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail= .com> wrote:
Hi=C2=A0Gyan,

Always a pleasure!
See inline, please =C2=A0let me know if you have got any = other questions.
=C2=A0<= /div>
[Gyan]=C2=A0 Thanks Jeff for the detailed responses!=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0I am with Ver= izon Communications and SME of Verizon's Network Engineering & Tech= nology org and head up their Planning, Engineering & Design & Proof= of concept lab so represent Verizon at the IETF from an "operators&qu= ot; perspective for real world use cases as well as industry needs standpoi= nt and so to be on top of new and upcoming technologies=C2=A0 have been par= t of the IETF Working Groups below related to Routing & Internet of whi= ch as we can see on this thread has=C2=A0 a lot of overlap between many wor= king groups.
=C2=A0

6MAN (IPv6 Main= tenance) WG

MPLS (Multi Protocol Label Switching) WG

LSR (Link State Routing) WG

RTG-BFD (Routing Group - Bi Directional Forwarding) WG

SPRING=C2=A0 (Source Packet Routing in Network) WG

NFVCON (Network Function Virtualization) WG

PALS (Pseudowire And LDP-enabled Services) WG

RTGWG (Routing Area Working Group) WG

TEAs (Traffic Engineering Architecture and Signaling) WG

QUIC (QUIC UDP Internet Connections) WG

PIM (Protocol Independent Multicasting) WG

BESS (BGP Enabled Services) WG


[comments in-line]


Cheers,


Gyan

Cheers,
Jeff
On Sep 20, 2019, 10:20 AM -0700, Gyan Mis= hra <hayabusa= gsm@gmail.com>, wrote:


Sent= from my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Gyan,

IPFRR doesn=E2=80=99t use/need any IGP extensions and is local to the = device computing LFA.
As RTGWG chair - I welcome you to read a number of rather well written= RFCs on the topic we have published in RTGWG over the last 7 years.=C2=A0<= /div>
Pay attention on how LFAs are computed, this would clarify your questi= on as to why there=E2=80=99s no need for additional imposition as well as w= hy LFA provides partial coverage.
There=E2=80=99s also TI-LFA draft that explains how TI-LFA is computed= and why it relies on additional imposition if LFA is unavailable.

Rega= rds,
Jeff


Thanks you Jeff!

I am part of the RTGWG and will definitely read through all the RFCs a= s well as Ti-LFA draft I detail.

I read through RFC 5286 IP LFA the LFA algorithm uses the underlying I= GP to for alternative loop free next hop for link and node protection but s= ince it=E2=80=99s the algorithm runs locally to build the =E2=80=9Cbackup= =E2=80=9D path pre programmed it does not require IGP extensions. =C2=A0
IP LFA is similar algorithm to the CISCO proprietary EIGRP topology lo= opfree feasible successor backup paths.=C2=A0 Am I stating that correctly r= eason why LFA does not rely on IGP extensions.=C2=A0
[jeff] IP LFA relies on the fact that in LS routing protocols, all rou= ters in area/level share same LSDB, hence LFA's can be computed, DUAL (= EIGRP) has some similarities, you could further read RFC7868 (Feasibility C= ondition)

RFLA RFC 7490 - so I had a question - always wondered about - so RLFA = is used when a LFA path does not exist so a ldp tunnel is built to the PQ n= ode for backup RLFA pre programmed path to get built.
[jeff] it is a local policy matter, in the implementation I work= ed on, this was the default behavior.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 So when that LDP tunnel is build an extra mpls shim is added to= the label stack.=C2=A0 Is that correct for RLFA backup paths. Is it just a= single shim or multiple to do the RLFA LDP tunneling. =C2=A0
[jeff] this is a single MPLS(transport) label=C2=A0

I read through the Ti-LFA draft =C2=A0
[jeff] we have adopted the draft as wg document, it has been updated, = please read draft-ietf-rtgwg-segment-routing-ti-lfa-01=C2=A0


So Ti-LFA uses loop free uses a traffic engineered IGP independent top= ology independent path that is desired with SR-MPLS or with SRv6 uses the E= H SRH SID list for the pre programmed backup path.=C2=A0 So an additional E= H insertion has to occur on the ingress PE to the SR or SRV6 domain. =C2=A0=
[jeff] No, the insertion is happening at the PLR (point of local repai= r) and is local to the PLR, if a backup path is instantiated at head-end/in= gress PE, we are talking about =E2=80=9Cpath protection=E2=80=9D, e.g. - wh= en head-end desired to switch over to a backup path it does so without help= of any intermediate nodes.
=C2=A0I have to read through more carefully but I am not seeing how an= intermediate node would require EH insertion since that function is always= on the source node head end of the traffic engineered path.=C2=A0
[jeff] see my previous comment, it is indeed the intermediate node (PL= R) that computes LFA and if PQ node is not available thru shortest path (th= ink ring topology) it has to impose additional piece of data-plane informat= ion (MPLS labels/EHs) that would be used by intermediated nodes to get to t= he PQ node. =C2=A0
[Gyan]=C2=A0 So that makes sense now why the intermediate node EH inse= rtion is required at the (PLR) intermediate node that computes LFA and if L= FA is not available through the IGP SPF local topology database a single EH= SRH header needs be inserted=C2=A0 at the PLR node for the PSSI segment SR= source route list to source route traffic engineer along the protected pat= h to the egress PQ node.=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 In some of the discussion I heard rum= blings about TLVs processing on the intermediate node and performance hit w= ith EH insertion & TLV processing hit impacting asic line rate performa= nce. How do we get around that issue with intermediate node EH insertion im= pacting performance for Ti-LFA.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Also i= s Ti-LFA the only use case that requires EH insertion?=C2=A0
=C2= =A0
Regards,

Gyan
On Sep 19, 2019, at 18:06, Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> w= rote:

Hi Robert=C2=A0

I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium and= I know the question has come up a few times and I know you replied back a = few times related to the service provider use case where we end up with the= multiple violations of RFC 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH insertion= as well as many EH insertions occurring and what was mentioned was Ti-LFA.= =C2=A0 So since LFA and Remote LFA are extensions of the IGP providing the = 50ms failover similar to traditional mpls Fast Reroute capabilities NH &= ; NNH link/node/path protection in the legacy TE FRR pce the head end PE LS= R adds and additional mpls shim for FRR.

With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions opaq= ue LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided by LF= A loop free backup path.=C2=A0 In that scenario with LDP there is not any a= dditional label with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA ba= ckup path with LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tun= nled through the RLFA node.

So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are= not using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditiona= l mpls TE FRR.

I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint wh= at the use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate nod= e as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and fo= r that matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80= =9D source routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on t= he intermediate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination r= ewrite of IPv6 destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP = or USP on the egress node of the service provider core.

I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if thei= r is a asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we= don=E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our pat= h targeting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6.

Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think = understanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the justifica= tion of the RFC 8200 violations.

Thank you

Gyan Mishra
Verizon Communications=C2=A0
Cell 301 502-1347

Sent= from my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Hi Reji,

Notice what it says: " ... explicitly listed intermediate node= s ... "

CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes= so I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpr= et them.=C2=A0

But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this threa= d become great education.=C2=A0

An real example where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 w= hich does put the addresses explicitly.=C2=A0

Many thx,
Robert.








On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji = Thomas <reji= thomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>I do not know what is the difference between= IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed header and "final destination&q= uot;. Where do you carry "final destination" address ?=C2=A0

See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200.=C2=A0 Hope its clear what's the final= destination and the context in which it is used.

      Segments Left       =
8-bit unsigned integer.  Number of route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.


Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robe= rt Raszuk <robert= @raszuk.net> wrote:
IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE = midpoint is either a packet's destination or not. It can not be both.= =C2=A0

I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address = in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry &= quot;final destination" address ?=C2=A0

Many=C2=A0 thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji = Thomas <reji= thomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>Well the crux of the ma=
tter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IPv6 destination whi=
ch here means each transit node per RFC8200

 From RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the ca=
se or at least as I understand. See  Section 4..1 n=
ote 1 and note 3. Am I missing something?
 
IPv6 header
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Rober= t Raszuk <rraszuk= @gmail.com> wrote:

<= /div>
I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture bett= er. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI.

Well = the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each IP= v6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That is rega= rdless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.=C2=A0

<= /div>
Best,=
R.

=C2=A0
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--

Gyan S. Mishra

= IT Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0

Verizon Communications=C2=A0Inc. (VZ)

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;background-image:ini= tial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial;font-size:12pt;f= ont-family:"Times New Roman",serif">13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

Silver Spring, MD 20904=

United States

Phone:=C2=A0301 502-1347

Email:=C2=A0gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

www.linkedin.com/in/GYAN-MISHRA-RS-SP-MPLS-IPV6-EXPERT


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Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 233B1120052; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 21:54:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BqGeEI1FZrQ3; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 21:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D26CD12004F; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 21:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46ZytM5ZjYzkZ4Z; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 21:54:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1569041675; bh=pkprkFysuV5jtKvR60zxLNUenpAieK38I4hjVxoHKZs=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=bqlP9mLNFZGvwp8DeJ7vA9Uw3xYjcon5fKwjjAUC8XBwiVFNjbAcoIJSv5Sm3AxZP JlJCpXy95r7kzPN6rUv1mdPAguCBQopfCYOGp/VktqPc8zbtRaJpiUWcELMffptRa6 vEEYBZ+D8ArL+NSqOPA6XIEDRSGw+56GA90I0MUs= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.7.244] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46ZytM1BMSzkYnV; Fri, 20 Sep 2019 21:54:35 -0700 (PDT) To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Cc: SPRING WG References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <41ca6fad-9e21-5d48-1f2c-0d9ce722920e@joelhalpern.com> Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 00:54:32 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 04:54:39 -0000 I see where the draft defines a set of constraints. The constraint that there be no other extension headers is a fairly drastic constraint, which would seem a cause for concern. Putting that aside however, the draft does not seem to provide any explanation for why insertion rather than additional encapsulation is used. Particularly given the assumption that the MTU is large enough, it seems the encapsulation could be used for all insertion cases. Yours, Joel On 9/21/2019 12:34 AM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > Hello everyone, we’ve just submitted an updated draft that explains why > SRH insertion is performed in an SR domain, how it is accomplished and > why it is safe within the SR domain. > > The authors look forward to your comments and suggestions on how to > improve this document. > > Thanks! >   Darren (on behalf of the authors) > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *> >> *Subject: **New Version Notification for >> draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt* >> *Date: *September 21, 2019 at 12:20:13 AM EDT >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Darren Dukes and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name:draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion >> Revision:07 >> Title:Insertion of IPv6 Segment Routing Headers in a Controlled Domain >> Document date:2019-09-20 >> Group:Individual Submission >> Pages:13 >> URL: >> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt >> Status: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion/ >> Htmlized: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07 >> Htmlized: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion >> Diff: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07 >> >> Abstract: >>   Traffic traversing an SR domain is encapsulated in an outer IPv6 >>   header for its journey through the SR domain. >> >>   To implement transport services strictly within the SR domain, the SR >>   domain may require insertion or removal of an SRH after the outer >>   IPv6 header of the SR domain.  Any segment within the SRH is strictly >>   contained within the SR domain. >> >>   The SR domain always preserves the end-to-end integrity of traffic >>   traversing it.  No extension header is manipulated, inserted or >>   removed from an inner transported packet.  The packet leaving the SR >>   domain is exactly the same (except for the hop-limit update) as the >>   packet entering the SR domain. >> >>   The SR domain is designed with link MTU sufficiently greater than the >>   MTU at the ingress edge of the SR domain. >> >> >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org >> . >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nobody Sat Sep 21 04:49:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0711200B4; 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Halpern" Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 19:48:57 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Message-ID: <1569062589313.5mbiqs15vzaaubgvzx4nvk4i@android.mail.163.com> References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com><41ca6fad-9e21-5d48-1f2c-0d9ce722920e@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <41ca6fad-9e21-5d48-1f2c-0d9ce722920e@joelhalpern.com> X-CUSTOM-MAIL-MASTER-SENT-ID: MailMasterAndroid-2607-1569066528696-6f219f15-82c3-4c93-b7ef-8af22392fbee Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="__MESSAGE_BODY_PART__1_-1510492501499131885" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] wd: New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 11:49:03 -0000 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LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLTxici8+PC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPjwv YmxvY2txdW90ZT48L2Rpdj4KPC9ib2R5Pgo8L2h0bWw+ --__MESSAGE_BODY_PART__1_-1510492501499131885-- From nobody Sat Sep 21 10:02:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F6AA12004C; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:01:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MTm_7UQ_fKzz; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA4-Wyn.bell.ca (esa4-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0533612000F; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dm5czo-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX03-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.33]) by esa04corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 21 Sep 2019 13:01:45 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX03-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120d::8eb6:120d) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 13:01:44 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([::1]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 13:01:44 -0400 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: "Joel M. Halpern" CC: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, "SPRING WG" Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt Thread-Index: AQHVcDXuqJa+gsxFR0CM81LyTMm0Dqc10/IAgADKeoA= Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:01:44 +0000 Message-ID: <96836B6A-DFBC-48F4-923E-4415FB1ED63D@bell.ca> References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> <41ca6fad-9e21-5d48-1f2c-0d9ce722920e@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <41ca6fad-9e21-5d48-1f2c-0d9ce722920e@joelhalpern.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <838544801D19704E836C81439576E8D0@exchange.bell.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Fwd: New Version Notification for 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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:04:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> From: Tom Herbert Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:04:02 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" Cc: 6man <6man@ietf.org>, SPRING WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:04:22 -0000 Some comments: Most of the constraints listed section 2.2 should be specified as normative requirements. "SR domain link MTU is sufficiently greater than the MTU at the ingress edge of the SR domain..." should be the requirement: "The MTU for all paths in the domain MUST be large enough to accommodate the maximum length of an inserted SRH" Also, for sizing MTU some guidance to the operator to determine what the maximum length SRH they will ever need would be useful. "Within the context of this document and the described SRH use-case within the SR domain, the SR domain can guarantee that SRH is the sole extension header after the outer IPv6 header." should be the requirement "An SRH MUST NOT be inserted into a packet that already has extension headers" "All traffic within the SR domain has IPv6 source and destination address within the SR domain." should be requirement: "All traffic within the SR domain MUST have an IPv6 source and destination address that is within the SR domain." Similarly, "Only traffic sourced from and destined to nodes in the SR domain may have an SRH inserted." could be: "Traffic sourced from or destined to a node outside of the SR domain MUST NOT have an SRH inserted." About "IPv6 encapsulation and optional insertion of SRH at the SR domain ingress edge generates a new IPv6 packet." and "IPv6 encapsulation and SRH insertion at SR Domain ingress edge." This is a bit confusing in the use of the word "insertion" in the context of encapsulation, and on first read it seemed to be allowing SRH insertion at ingress into the domain (without encapsulating). Instead of saying "insertion" here, maybe something like "the SRH may be included when encapsulating". That is, reserve the term "insertion" to explicitly mean when SRH is being inserted into an existing IPv6 packet without encapsulating. The attribution problem hasn't been addressed. I imagine it may be possible to put the address of the node inserting an SRH somewhere in the header in order to provide proper attribution. Tom Tom On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:35 PM Darren Dukes (ddukes) wr= ote: > > Hello everyone, we=E2=80=99ve just submitted an updated draft that explai= ns why SRH insertion is performed in an SR domain, how it is accomplished a= nd why it is safe within the SR domain. > > The authors look forward to your comments and suggestions on how to impro= ve this document. > > Thanks! > Darren (on behalf of the authors) > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-i= nsertion-07.txt > Date: September 21, 2019 at 12:20:13 AM EDT > > > A new version of I-D, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt > has been successfully submitted by Darren Dukes and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion > Revision: 07 > Title: Insertion of IPv6 Segment Routing Headers in a Controlled Domain > Document date: 2019-09-20 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 13 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voyer-6man-ext= ension-header-insertion-07.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-6man-extensi= on-header-insertion/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-he= ader-insertion-07 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voyer-6man-ex= tension-header-insertion > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-voyer-6man-exte= nsion-header-insertion-07 > > Abstract: > Traffic traversing an SR domain is encapsulated in an outer IPv6 > header for its journey through the SR domain. > > To implement transport services strictly within the SR domain, the SR > domain may require insertion or removal of an SRH after the outer > IPv6 header of the SR domain. Any segment within the SRH is strictly > contained within the SR domain. > > The SR domain always preserves the end-to-end integrity of traffic > traversing it. No extension header is manipulated, inserted or > removed from an inner transported packet. The packet leaving the SR > domain is exactly the same (except for the hop-limit update) as the > packet entering the SR domain. > > The SR domain is designed with link MTU sufficiently greater than the > MTU at the ingress edge of the SR domain. > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Sep 21 10:16:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B29612004E for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:16:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qwe3diGc8Y7E for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7AF712004C for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id r16so9101190edq.11 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:16:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eCxp+SPI8qZnyUXAXSAnj7IPvdg6xIbLw4hEq4m07CY=; b=iz5nhBmZCPQbl/7SqHqxV9NCMPrQO4qh8GOmR89puQ8jhRf5T+X2EHSU+vE3Vam9oa rd+ZBb7Y7BlB12psYVNw4DWWJ1ytavmMertMH1OEDLWKKzMmXSRhYamr0qBh5nv4qcvA leBDoM4L7iuEnZx6oqLDqESWSuefYpdXKhfbD92SWXEW1ApvUjmm/2TVWq1WPf8oeAR/ GUxemex2sytw9OlddjF36fLr3sUzf0xy+XBod/DS6qpUFtnz7Qi6vq6I1IYkv1i4dsol 4FYJmX2U/n76/L/o6oAoYA+aHjFATEDdEVgcGLTuw8nG/veYWuuABrIh7Zk1USk7GIAK ZsRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eCxp+SPI8qZnyUXAXSAnj7IPvdg6xIbLw4hEq4m07CY=; b=lWqfRFBwdbjif9WTjjdrZka6o3HfFh6FswwGb29g2d0gae5MK6cuRCrZXHz3nFjuRf k55iOhgaW/SkUqKwW+zT94DoWH7nnzTQLe/Wmw9fF8/W0fYjxre45/DnC6XzNlCLBwtI i14B+cCAls3dpJgJDbxLJuCMLGzkdVxycKaP90h4lyyS0uUvkqMD7ZEipWxvb3IzC+Dk sES1qTawiNEabbTD+tpmsDh7DxefNyUcL7/kLuDKrXCFxJhFjDWmUX0ojvFZKcCx2WDD pyP7pEDTQ1KcZMKxB1t4OzyuajxHbclMIBXsRX17nSB+VseIpX9a49gq5q8Xl7y2htJP IdDw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVCxY+QxKOEjwB+Px05dzE3edIF6yDCqNR+ohNmMjL49ZuWTqz/ Mbjm7wwucKIYg3OcMbGejb3y9P/3D4pU84YIlNQ0tw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwDVvESKpWfRXfN0KjZ+7fU45FcjCYe7Tg2U7zOkfu9PZNqN26o25R//HLiseZMkjvsznJ9YTWWXRmFgjLqRjM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3717:: with SMTP id d23mr1264151ejc.266.1569086174477; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:16:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> <41ca6fad-9e21-5d48-1f2c-0d9ce722920e@joelhalpern.com> <96836B6A-DFBC-48F4-923E-4415FB1ED63D@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: <96836B6A-DFBC-48F4-923E-4415FB1ED63D@bell.ca> From: Tom Herbert Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 10:16:01 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Voyer, Daniel" Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:16:20 -0000 On Sat, Sep 21, 2019 at 10:02 AM Voyer, Daniel wrote= : > > Hi Joel, > > Sent from my mobile > > > On Sep 21, 2019, at 00:54, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > > > I see where the draft defines a set of constraints. > > The constraint that there be no other extension headers is a fairly dra= stic constraint, which would seem a cause for concern. > > > > Putting that aside however, the draft does not seem to provide any expl= anation for why insertion rather than additional encapsulation is used. Pa= rticularly given the assumption that the MTU is large enough, it seems the = encapsulation could be used for all insertion cases. > > > DV: correct, you can use encapsulations but at the cost of 40bytes overhe= ad. Running an operators backbone, with a widespread among of use cases, yo= u need those bytes.. Daniel, The overhead difference is more like 24 bytes since the destination IP address would need to be in the SID list in insertion case. The source address in encapsulation is useful to provide proper attribution. In any case, the argument that overhead matters would be much more convincing if the segment routing header itself was sparing in overhead (carrying a list of 16 byte IPv6 addresses is a lot of overhead). Tom > > > Yours, > > Joel > Regards > Dan > > > >> On 9/21/2019 12:34 AM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > >> Hello everyone, we=E2=80=99ve just submitted an updated draft that exp= lains why SRH insertion is performed in an SR domain, how it is accomplishe= d and why it is safe within the SR domain. > >> The authors look forward to your comments and suggestions on how to im= prove this document. > >> Thanks! > >> Darren (on behalf of the authors) > >>> Begin forwarded message: > >>> > >>> *From: *> > >>> *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-h= eader-insertion-07.txt* > >>> *Date: *September 21, 2019 at 12:20:13 AM EDT > >>> > >>> > >>> A new version of I-D, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.= txt > >>> has been successfully submitted by Darren Dukes and posted to the > >>> IETF repository. > >>> > >>> Name:draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion > >>> Revision:07 > >>> Title:Insertion of IPv6 Segment Routing Headers in a Controlled Domai= n > >>> Document date:2019-09-20 > >>> Group:Individual Submission > >>> Pages:13 > >>> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voyer-6man-extension-= header-insertion-07.txt > >>> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-6man-extension-h= eader-insertion/ > >>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-head= er-insertion-07 > >>> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voyer-6man-exte= nsion-header-insertion > >>> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-voyer-6man-extension-= header-insertion-07 > >>> > >>> Abstract: > >>> Traffic traversing an SR domain is encapsulated in an outer IPv6 > >>> header for its journey through the SR domain. > >>> > >>> To implement transport services strictly within the SR domain, the = SR > >>> domain may require insertion or removal of an SRH after the outer > >>> IPv6 header of the SR domain. Any segment within the SRH is strict= ly > >>> contained within the SR domain. > >>> > >>> The SR domain always preserves the end-to-end integrity of traffic > >>> traversing it. No extension header is manipulated, inserted or > >>> removed from an inner transported packet. The packet leaving the S= R > >>> domain is exactly the same (except for the hop-limit update) as the > >>> packet entering the SR domain. > >>> > >>> The SR domain is designed with link MTU sufficiently greater than t= he > >>> MTU at the ingress edge of the SR domain. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of sub= mission > >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org <= http://tools.ietf.org>. > >>> > >>> The IETF Secretariat > >>> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> ipv6@ietf.org > >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- > > External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments /= Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sat Sep 21 11:09:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2871200B8 for ; 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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 18:09:30 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: SING Team CC: Jeff Tantsura , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" , SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Thread-Index: AQHVbv1ogIVJNBSa90i6Frx+YTTnzaczIfKAgAC8GgCAAAELAIAA/e3wgACjQQCAAOr5IA== Content-Class: Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 18:09:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1568906072231.1bkuswxveutxvlrzmmzkgs2g@android.mail.163.com> <20625BDC-2D90-4E35-96E3-2BC4B723C06E@bell.ca> <1569035481440.mlhhmijcsgraco5tapifot4m@android.mail.163.com> In-Reply-To: <1569035481440.mlhhmijcsgraco5tapifot4m@android.mail.163.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=rbonica@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2019-09-21T18:09:24.5631172Z; 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boundary="_004_BYAPR05MB5463D09B6FAB2F4E60103FAAAE8B0BYAPR05MB5463namp_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4f9ad7e1-f05a-4630-ead2-08d73ebed94f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Sep 2019 18:09:30.4335 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: kM4xvwHQE5ARDHQMLWAkN1+jeL9DCYKBYhOeC58H4U0YLh5ZtJFfDilIicRDBZRXQUupaJSWJVVaSHRsGT8/3w== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6536 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.70,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-21_08:2019-09-20,2019-09-21 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909210199 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 18:09:44 -0000 --_004_BYAPR05MB5463D09B6FAB2F4E60103FAAAE8B0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB5463D09B6FAB2F4E60103FAAAE8B0BYAPR05MB5463namp_" --_000_BYAPR05MB5463D09B6FAB2F4E60103FAAAE8B0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi S.I.N.G. Team, Good to meet you! Let's address the issue in two parts.... First, we agree that it would be easy do define a binding SID in SRv6+. We = would simply mimic the strategy used by SR-MPLS. That is: * Define a new SID type * Define a new SFIB type that contains all of the information required = to compose the binding tunnel * Add a few TLVs to the IGPs to distribute the above-mentioned informat= ion Now, we explore whether it is possible achieve the same effect without defi= ning a new SID type..... We agree that when an SRv6+ ingress node receives a packet, it can expose t= hat packet to policy. Policy contains match conditions and actions. If the = packet satisfies a policy's match conditions, its actions will be executed = and its actions may include encapsulating the packet in an IPv6 header. Policy can be applied recursively. Assume that a packet traverses the follo= wing SRv6+ path: * S1 -> S2 -> S3 As the packet enters or traverses Segment S1->S2, the outermost IPv6 addres= s is 2001:db8::1. But somewhere along that path, either at the ingress node= or at a transit node, the packet is exposed to policy. Policy matches on t= he destination address 2001:db8::1 and causes the packet to be encapsulated= in yet another SRv6+ tunnel that traverses the following path: * S2A -> S2B -> S2C The IPv6 address 2001:db8::1 represents a real interface in S3. But it is a= lso the object of a match condition. = Ron BTW, What does S.I.N.G. stand for? I'm always happy to see students and res= earchers participating in the IETF ! Juniper Business Use Only From: SING Team Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 11:46 PM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Jeff Tantsura ; Chengli (Cheng Li) ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; SPRING = WG List Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Yes I believe both Binding SID is an important design for inter-domain sign= aling, and it is easy to add some mechanisms for SRv6+ to achieve similar f= unction of Binding SID. :) But I'm not sure if it is feasible to bind one IPv6 address to 'BSID' in SR= v6+, because as shown in draft(spring-srv6-plus): "In SRv6+, an IPv6 address always represents a network interface", and not = represents an instruction/function on a node as SRv6 does. And, as the way you presented, interface IPv6 address 2001:db8::1 is mapped= with SID 123, and bind to one SRv6+ tunnel. So, does it mean if we need to advertise many tunnels outside at one border= router, we need to initialize many virtual interfaces(e.g. loopback) in th= e router? If does, I'm not sure this is a good idea to achieve inter-domain service t= unnel signaling with security. Because in contrast to SRv6, it just need to= simply add one route/sr-policy. How do you think? :) Best regards, SING Team [Image removed by sender.] Moonlight Thoughts SING Team. Guangzhou, China Signature is customized by Netease Mail Master On 09/21/2019 02:09, Ron Bonica wrote: Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <= daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There's number of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID for mul= ti-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on't think anyone will still say we don't need binding SID. Let's be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain rout= ing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network doma= in. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don't need to have= some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BYAPR05MB5463D09B6FAB2F4E60103FAAAE8B0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi S.I.N.G. Team,

 

Good to meet you! Let’s address the issue in t= wo parts….

 

First, we agree that it would be easy do define a bi= nding SID in SRv6+. We would simply mimic the strategy used by SR-MPLS.= That is:

 

  • Define a new SID type
  • Define a new SFIB type tha= t contains all of the information required to compose the binding tunnel
  • Add a few TLVs to the IGPs to distribute the above-menti= oned information

 

Now, we explore whether it is possible achieve the s= ame effect without defining a new SID type…..

 

We agree that when an SRv6+ ingress node receive= s a packet, it can expose that packet to policy. Policy contains match cond= itions and actions. If the packet satisfies a policy’s match conditio= ns, its actions will be executed and its actions may include encapsulating the packet in an IPv6 header.

 

Policy can be applied recursively. Assume that a pac= ket traverses the following SRv6+ path:

 

  • S1 -> S2 -> S3

 

As the packet enters or traverses Segment S1->S2,= the outermost IPv6 address is 2001:db8::1. But somewhere along that path, = either at the ingress node or at a transit node, the packet is exposed to p= olicy. Policy matches on the destination address 2001:db8::1 and causes the packet to be encapsulated in yet anothe= r SRv6+ tunnel that traverses the following path:

 

  • S2A -> S2B -> S2C

 

The IPv6 address 2001:db8::1 represents a real inter= face in S3. But it is also the object of a match condition.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;  Ron

 

BTW, What does S.I.N.G. stand for? I’m always = happy to see students and researchers participating in the IETF !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.c= om>
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 11:46 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Chengli (Cheng Li= ) <chengli13@huawei.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.ber= nier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

Yes I believe both Binding SID is an important design for inter-domain sign= aling, and it is easy to add some mechanisms for SRv6+ to achieve simil= ar function of Binding SID.  :)

But I’m not sure if it is feasible to bind one IPv6 address to ‘= ;BSID’ in SRv6+, because as shown in draft(spring-srv6-plus):

“In SRv6+, an IPv6 address always represents a network interface&= #8221;, and not represents an instruction/function on a node as SRv6 does.<= br>
And, as the way you presented, interface IPv6 address 2001:db8::1 is mapped= with SID 123, and bind to one SRv6+ tunnel.


So, does it mean if we need to advertise many tunnels outside at one border= router, we need to initialize many virtual interfaces(e.g. loopback) in th= e router?

If does, I’m not sure this is a good idea to achieve inter-domain ser= vice tunnel signaling with security. Because in contrast to SRv6, it just n= eed to simply add one route/sr-policy.

How do you think?  :)

Best regards,
SING Team

3D"Image

Moonlight Thoughts

SING Team. Guangzhou, China

Signature is customized by= Netease Mail Master

On 09/21/2019 02:09, Ron Bonica wr= ote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6= +. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

 

However, there is another way to get exactly the sam= e behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB en= try:

 

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID ty= pe: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also have the following route on= Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified de= stination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a bin= ding SID.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            Ron=

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bern= ier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.= org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

There’s number of solutions on the market that= extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before,= Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We should see the impo= rtant part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the= details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.=

 

Since the EH insertion= related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyon= e will still say we don’t need binding SID.

Let’s be honest,= Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is not s= ecure to share internal info outside a trusted network domain.<= /o:p>

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

+1 =

 <= /o:p>

This is what we did= on our multi-cloud trials.

 <= /o:p>

Encap with Binding = SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don’t need to have some sor= t of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

 <= /o:p>

Dan

 <= /o:p>

On 2= 019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf o= f s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

&nbs= p;

Hi Andrew,
Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49,&nb= sp;Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: =

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________=  
spring mailing list 
spring@iet= f..org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/Spring  

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

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[73.189.13.44]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 202sm5309685pfu.161.2019.09.21.13.31.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Sep 2019 13:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 13:31:46 -0700 From: Jeff Tantsura To: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Ron Bonica Cc: SING Team , "=?utf-8?Q?EXT_-_daniel.bernier=40bell.ca?=" , SPRING WG List Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <1568906072231.1bkuswxveutxvlrzmmzkgs2g@android.mail.163.com> <20625BDC-2D90-4E35-96E3-2BC4B723C06E@bell.ca> X-Readdle-Message-ID: e0776cf0-fbf9-4b13-9aed-54d82c9ee16e@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5d8688ba_885e1b_2a6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 20:32:01 -0000 --5d8688ba_885e1b_2a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, exactly,=C2=A0BSID=C2=A0MPLS label =3D CRH valu= e :) Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica , wrot= e: > Hi Jeff, > > It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer d= emand, I would not be averse to adding one. > > However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the f= orwarding plane without adding a new SID type. > > Assume that on Node N, we have the following S=46IB entry: > > > =E2=80=A2 SID: 123 > =E2=80=A2 IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 > =E2=80=A2 SID type: prefix SID > > > Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: > > 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH > > This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > =46rom: spring On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM > To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier=40b= ell.ca ; SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing > > There=E2=80=99s number of solutions on the market that extensively use = BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. > > Regards, > Jeff > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) = wrote: > > +1. > > > > As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID lis= t. > > We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routi= ng, =C2=A0since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privac= y are always important. > > > > Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draf= t, I don=E2=80=99t think anyone will still say we don=E2=80=99t need bind= ing SID. > > Let=E2=80=99s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in int= er-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trus= ted network domain. > > > > Cheng > > > > > > =46rom: spring =5Bmailto:spring-bounces=40ietf.org=5D On Behalf Of Be= rnier, Daniel > > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM > > To: SING Team > > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > > Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > +1 > > > > This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. > > > > Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=E2=80=99= t need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs > > > > Dan > > > > On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, =22spring on behalf of SING Team=22 wrote: > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > Good to hear that reality experiment :) > > > > But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted = network domain=3F > > > > Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+=3F > > > > Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right=3F > > > > Best regards, > > Moonlight Thoughts > > > > > > (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) > > > > On 09/19/2019 17:49,=C2=A0Andrew Alston=C2=A0wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around depl= oyments and running code - because one of the things we've been testing i= s inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation = and another implementation. > > > > So - the setup we used last night: > > > > 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet.=C2=A0 = Call these S1 -> S6 > > 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering betwee= n the networks in question.=C2=A0 Call these R1 -> R3 > > > > We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 = -> R3, with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying ad= dressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the S= ID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 = etc) > > > > Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. > > > > What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share t= he SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an= open path, and across a remote network.=C2=A0 Obviously this relies on t= he fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but thi= s isn't something we're seeing. > > > > Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be= signaled between the providers - work still going on with regards to thi= s for testing purposes.=C2=A0 Just as a note - there would be no requirem= ent to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP = - the requirement would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for= the steering. > > > > I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is some= thing that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. > > > > Thanks > > > > Andrew > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > spring mailing list > > spring=40ietf..org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > spring mailing list > > spring=40ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --5d8688ba_885e1b_2a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Ron,

Thanks for your comments, exactly,&=23160;BSID&=23160;MPLS label =3D= CRH value :)

Cheers,
Jeff
On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ro= n Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

&=23160;

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID t= o SRv6+. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

&=23160;

However, there is another way to get exactly t= he same behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

&=23160;

Assume that on Node N, we have the following S= =46IB entry:

&=23160;

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID type: prefix SID

&=23160;

Now assume that was also have the following ro= ute on Node N:

&=23160;

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified = destination address and CRH

&=23160;

This gives you the same forwarding behavior as= a binding SID.

&=23160;

&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160; Ron

&=23160;

&=23160;

&=23160;

Juniper Business Use Only

=46rom: spring <spring-bounces=40iet= f.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13=40huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.= bernier=40bell.ca <daniel.bernier=40bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <sp= ring=40ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing

&=23160;

There=E2=80=99s number of solutions on the mar= ket that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer sig= naling.

&=23160;

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13=40huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

&=23160;=

As I men= tioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We shoul= d see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, &=23160;= since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are alwa= ys important.

&=23160;=

Since th= e EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don=E2=80= =99t think anyone will still say we don=E2=80=99t need binding SID.

Let=E2=80= =99s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain rou= ting. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network d= omain.

&=23160;=

Cheng

&=23160;=

&=23160;=

=46rom: spring =5Bmailto:spring-bounces=40ietf.org=5D On= Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <= spring=40ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing

&=23160;

+1=

&=23160;<= /span>

This is w= hat we did on our multi-cloud trials.

&=23160;<= /span>

Encap wit= h Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=E2=80=99t need to hav= e some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

&=23160;<= /span>

Dan

&=23160;<= /span>

On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, =22spring on beh= alf of SING Team=22 <= spring-bounces=40ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com> wrote:

&=23160;

Hi Andrew,
Good to hear that reality experiment :)

But is it secure to share internal SID-IP= mappings outside a trusted network domain=3F

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID = of SRv6, in SRv6+=3F

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, r= ight=3F

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

 On 09/19/2019 17:49,&=23160;Andrew Alston&=23160;wrote:
 Hi Guys,&=23160;

I thought this may be of interest in ligh= t of discussions around deployments and running code - because one of the= things we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on b= oth our DPDK implementation and another implementation.&=23160;
So - the setup we used last night:&=23160= ;

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked = to the open internet.&=23160; Call these S1 -> S6&=23160;
= 3 systems in a lab on the other side of t= he world - no peering between the networks in question.&=23160; Call thes= e R1 -> R3&=23160;

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered= S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappi= ngs from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for= the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had= a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc)&=23160;

Then we sent some packets - and the test = was entirely successful. &=23160;&=23160;

What this effectively means is that if tw= o providers agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer acr= oss one network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.&=231= 60; Obviously this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by i= ntermediate providers, but this isn't something we're seeing.&=23160;

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft= - and the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still = going on with regards to this for testing purposes.&=23160; Just as a not= e - there would be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topolo= gies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would be only to share th= e relevant SID's necessary for the steering.&=23160;

I can say from our side - with various ot= her providers - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - fo= r a whole host of reasons.&=23160;

Thanks&=23160;

Andrew&=23160;


=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F&=23160;
spring mailing list&=23160;
spring=40ietf..org&=23160;=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring&=23160;&=23= 160;

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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff, After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that= it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in = the next version of the draft. In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, ins= ertion is not needed. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeff Tantsura Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Ron Bonica Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <= daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :) Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There's number of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID for mul= ti-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on't think anyone will still say we don't need binding SID. Let's be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain rout= ing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network doma= in. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don't need to have= some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BYAPR05MB54638B3496626552613269A1AE8B0BYAPR05MB5463namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jeff,

 

After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ im= plementors, we decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv= 6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Sinc= e the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <= rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bern= ier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.= org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MP= LS label =3D CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:0= 9 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@j= uniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given c= ustomer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

 

However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on = the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry:

 

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID type: prefix SID

    •  

    Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N:<= /o:p>

     

    2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination addr= ess and CRH

     

    This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID.=

     

               =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;          Ron

     

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
    Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
    To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>
    Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

     

    There’s number of solutions on the market that extensively u= se BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling.

     

    Regards,

    Jeff


    On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

    +1.

     

    As I mentioned before, Binding SID i= s not only for shortening SID list.

    We should see the important part of = binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the details of in= tra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.

     

    Since the EH insertion related text = will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyone will still s= ay we don’t need binding SID.

    Let’s be honest, Encap mode Bi= nding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share= internal info outside a trusted network domain.

     

    Cheng

     

     

    From: spring [ma= ilto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
    Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
    To: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
    Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
    Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

     

    +1

     

    This is what we did on our multi-= cloud trials.

     

    Encap with Binding SID to avoid i= nter-domain mapping + I don’t need to have some sort of inter-dom= ain alignment of PSSIs

     

    Dan

     

    On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SIN= G Team" <spring-bounces@= ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

     

    Hi Andrew,

    Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
    But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

    Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

    Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

    Best regards,
    Moonlight Thoughts


    (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

    On 09/19/2019 17:49,&nb= sp;    Andrew Alston wrote:
    Hi Guys, 

    I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

    So - the setup we used last night: =

    6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
    3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

    We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
    Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

    What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

    Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

    I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

    Thanks 

    Andrew 


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    spring@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

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[96.231.151.173]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n42sm4286701qta.31.2019.09.21.17.17.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:17:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9A666761-001F-4747-B733-334526818EEA Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2019 20:17:33 -0400 Cc: Reji Thomas , "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , Rob Shakir , Tarek Saad , Srihari Sangli Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <70CE1CDE-27D1-4125-AEBB-D6771228D7F5@gmail.com> References: <30491F13-C652-45C3-AB2B-95F765FBB4EA@juniper.net> <65C5CB04-3A2F-4F83-A7C8-2045154F93AE@cisco.com> <91CBADAD-EFE6-46E1-A9D3-DAA111357179@juniper.net> <2F604D74-51CF-4F2F-AEA9-1CBDEEA9B9F7@gmail.com> <201909120857387140042@chinatelecom.cn> <1568259664564.62561@bell.ca> <6EA6F7C0-BEB2-4749-A6AB-62B1337213B2@cisco.com> <634900D2-FBCE-47CF-8907-C8B9CB3A4102@cisco.com> <52FDA21F-E860-45E2-846A-43B969DEDC87@juniper.net> <9EA2D501-4382-4071-A89C-8C593B66E2F1@juniper.net> <02987E0C-3512-4BDD-A888-32CF4C8EB78E@gmail.com> To: Robert Raszuk , ddukes@cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?b?4oCcU1JWNivigJ0gY29tcGxleGl0eSBpbiBmb3J3YXJk?= =?utf-8?q?ing?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 00:17:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail-9A666761-001F-4747-B733-334526818EEA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Responses in-line Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 20, 2019, at 4:44 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: >=20 > Hi Gyan, >=20 > > So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are=20= > > not using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditio= nal=20 > > mpls TE FRR.=20 >=20 > TI - stands for Topology Independent ... all other LFA modes rely on topol= ogies to be able to compute or not the backup path.=20 [Gyan] A few others mentioned this as well the concept of Ti=3D topology ind= ependent feature which seems like a sales pitch buzz word as you always have= an underlying IGP so that Ti-LFA =E2=80=9Cpost convergence loop free=E2=80=9D= using a traffic engineered path bypassing the normal IGP path and LFA alter= native next hop backup path next best lowest cost where Ti-LFA is really ref= erring to not necessarily a path that is different from the alternate next h= op as it could be any other traffic engineered path which includes the alter= native next hop which is the LFA path so then you cannot say then that it=E2= =80=99s topology independent. I think how it should be marketed is as since= SRV6 and SR-MPLS have the inherent source route capability without having t= o maintain state in the intermediate nodes it really is a =E2=80=9Ctraffic e= ngineered=E2=80=9D TE-LFA is a more accurate marketing buzz word of the LFA u= sed by SR & SRv6. One of the major benefits of SRv6 inherent traffic engine= ering capabilities is the ability to color traffic engineering each L3 vpn f= low natively onto different paths which cannot be easily done with tradition= al mpls and is a major use case for both enterprises and SPs to move towards= SRv6. >=20 > So why insertion/EH modification is needed ... well as I stated before the= re are few assets of this and all must be taken into consideration.=20 >=20 > A) In most cases of topologies it may not be required - only in some speci= al cases you may need to engineer your backup flows and then you either inse= rt new EH or add another IP encap with such SRH in current SRv6 architecture= .=20 >=20 > B) When you are doing node protection and PLR is adjucent to segment end n= ode you should fixup such SRH (so modify it on PLR which is not packet desti= nation) such that the packet will not try to return when LFA routed to N+1 s= egment end.=20 >=20 > Why A is option B clearly needs to be fixed or LFA style node protection o= f any segment end declared as not supported.=20 >=20 > Of course in bigger picture there any more protection methods to consider a= nd only specific operator of transit or enterprise is in position to decide w= hat works best for him. >=20 [Gyan] As an operator with Verizon a Tier 1 SP as well as having a very larg= e internal enterprise SP core - traffic engineering is critical component of= our network design and fast reroute path protection alternative next hop ca= pabilities provided by IP LFA and Remote LFA with LDP tunneling from PLR to P= Q node is critical to have that line rate optimal throughout hitless make be= fore break pre programmed backup path is a MUST and is really the main busi= ness driver justification for any SP or Enterprise to migrate to SRv6 is for= that inherent SRv6 traffic engineering 50ms failover to the pre programmed T= i-LFA backup path. Sorry for the long run on sentence =F0=9F=98=80 I think we should change the confusing inaccurate name of Ti-LFA to TE-LFA. We definitely need to get this figured out and a solution for intermediate n= ode EH insertion at the PLR node use case for Ti-LFA. Daren=20 You mentioned in one of your threads on this topic that there is some miscom= munication or something missing in the spec and that you are working on rect= ifying with an update. Can you explain how we can fix the issue with interm= ediate node EH insertion for Ti-LFA use case even though not used in every i= mplementation even though IP LFA is much more widely used then traditional T= E FRR where Ti-LFA is providing both capabilities in one feature Ti-LFA with= SRv6 so we definitely have to get this figured out with the RFC 8200 violat= ion from a 6MAN perspective. Regards, Gyan > Many thx, > R. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:06 AM Gyan Mishra wrote= : >> Hi Robert=20 >>=20 >> I know we have gone through many many lengthy discussions adnosium and I k= now the question has come up a few times and I know you replied back a few t= imes related to the service provider use case where we end up with the multi= ple violations of RFC 8200 related to intermediate nodes EH insertion as wel= l as many EH insertions occurring and what was mentioned was Ti-LFA. So sin= ce LFA and Remote LFA are extensions of the IGP providing the 50ms failover s= imilar to traditional mpls Fast Reroute capabilities NH & NNH link/node/path= protection in the legacy TE FRR pce the head end PE LSR adds and additional= mpls shim for FRR. >>=20 >> With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions opaque L= SA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided by LFA loo= p free backup path. In that scenario with LDP there is not any additional l= abel with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA backup path wi= th LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tunnled through t= he RLFA node. >>=20 >> So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are no= t using mpls LDP and not doing remote LFA and this is not the traditional mp= ls TE FRR. >>=20 >> I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint what t= he use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate node as t= hat even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and for that m= atter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D source= routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the intermed= iate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrite of IP= v6 destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP on the= egress node of the service provider core. >>=20 >> I designed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their i= s a asic processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we don= =E2=80=99t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our path tar= geting SR-MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6. >>=20 >> Thanks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think und= erstanding the use case would help 6man overall understand the justification= of the RFC 8200 violations. >>=20 >> Thank you >>=20 >> Gyan Mishra >> Verizon Communications=20 >> Cell 301 502-1347 >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>> On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Reji, >>>=20 >>> Notice what it says: " ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... " >>>=20 >>> CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly list intermediate nodes s= o I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply as the way you interpret t= hem.=20 >>>=20 >>> But I am i no way authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread b= ecome great education.=20 >>>=20 >>> An real example where those procedure apply is documented in RFC6554 whi= ch does put the addresses explicitly.=20 >>>=20 >>> Many thx, >>> Robert. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas wr= ote: >>>> Hi Robert, >>>>=20 >>>> >>I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address= in the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final dest= ination" address ?=20 >>>>=20 >>>> See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200. Hope its clear what's the final destinati= on and the context in which it is used. >>>>=20 >>>> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route >>>> segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitl= y >>>> listed intermediate nodes still to be visited= >>>> before reaching the final destination. >>>>=20 >>>> Regards >>>> Reji >>>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk wro= te: >>>>> IPv6 fixed header has only one destination address. So TE midpoint is e= ither a packet's destination or not. It can not be both.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> I do not know what is the difference between IPv6 Destination Address i= n the fixed header and "final destination". Where do you carry "final destin= ation" address ?=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Many thx, >>>>> R. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM Reji Thomas w= rote: >>>>>> Hi Robert, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> >>Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all E= Hs at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =46rom RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least as I un= derstand. See Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3. Am I missing something? >>>>>> =20 >>>>>> IPv6 header >>>>>> Hop-by-Hop Options header >>>>>> Destination Options header (note 1) >>>>>> Routing header >>>>>> Fragment header >>>>>> Authentication header (note 2) >>>>>> Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2) >>>>>> Destination Options header (note 3) >>>>>> Upper-Layer header >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination th= at >>>>>> appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus >>>>>> subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order= of >>>>>> the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload >>>>>> headers are given in [RFC4303]. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destinati= on >>>>>> of the packet. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Reji >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Raszuk wr= ote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I disagree. PPSI and PSSI leverages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture b= etter. The SRv6+ drafts explain the usecases better FYI. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Well the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EH= s at each IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. T= hat is regardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately.=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> R. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> spring mailing list >>>>>> spring@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-9A666761-001F-4747-B733-334526818EEA Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert

Re= sponses in-line

Sent from m= y iPhone

On Sep 20, 2019, at 4:44 AM, Robert Raszu= k <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:<= br>
Hi G= yan,

> So now talking SRv6 with Ti LFA why is there an= EH insertion as we are 
> not using mpls LDP and not doin= g remote LFA and this is not the traditional 
> mpls TE FR= R. 

TI - stands for Topology Independent ... a= ll other LFA modes rely on topologies to be able to compute or not the backu= p path. 

[Gyan] A few othe= rs mentioned this as well the concept of Ti=3D topology independent feature w= hich seems like a sales pitch buzz word as you always have an underlying IGP= so that Ti-LFA =E2=80=9Cpost convergence loop free=E2=80=9D using a traffic= engineered path bypassing the normal IGP path and LFA alternative next hop b= ackup path next best lowest cost where Ti-LFA is really referring to not nec= essarily a path that is different from the alternate next hop as it could be= any other traffic engineered path which includes the alternative next hop w= hich is the LFA path so then you cannot say then that it=E2=80=99s topology i= ndependent.  I think how it should be marketed is as since SRV6 and SR-= MPLS have the inherent source route capability without having to maintain st= ate in the intermediate nodes it really is a =E2=80=9Ctraffic engineered=E2=80= =9D TE-LFA is a more accurate marketing buzz word of the LFA used by SR &= ; SRv6.  One of the major benefits of SRv6 inherent traffic engineering= capabilities is the ability to color traffic engineering each L3 vpn flow n= atively onto different paths which cannot be easily done with traditional mp= ls and is a major use case for both enterprises and SPs to move towards SRv6= .

So why insertion/EH modification is needed ... well as I stated bef= ore there are  few assets of this and all must be taken into considerat= ion. 

A) In most cases of topologies it may no= t be required - only in some special cases you may need to engineer your bac= kup flows and then you either insert new EH or add another IP encap with suc= h SRH in current SRv6 architecture. 

B) When y= ou are doing node protection and PLR is adjucent to segment end node you sho= uld fixup such SRH (so modify it on PLR which is not packet destination) suc= h that the packet will not try to return when LFA routed to N+1 segment end.=  

Why A is option B clearly needs to be fi= xed or LFA style node protection of any segment end declared as not supporte= d. 

Of course in bigger picture there any more= protection methods to consider and only specific operator of transit or ent= erprise is in position to decide what works best for him.

[Gyan] As an operator with Verizon a Tier 1 SP as= well as having a very large internal enterprise SP core - traffic engineeri= ng is critical component of our network design and fast reroute path protect= ion alternative next hop capabilities provided by IP LFA and Remote LFA with= LDP tunneling from PLR to PQ node is critical to have that line rate optima= l throughout hitless make before break pre programmed  backup path is a= MUST and is really the main business driver justification for any SP or Ent= erprise to migrate to SRv6 is for that inherent SRv6 traffic engineering 50m= s failover to the pre programmed Ti-LFA backup path.  Sorry for the lon= g run on sentence =F0=9F=98=80

I think we should ch= ange the confusing inaccurate name of Ti-LFA to TE-LFA.

=
We definitely need to get this figured out and a solution for intermedi= ate node EH insertion at the PLR node use case for Ti-LFA.

Daren 

You mentioned in one of your th= reads on this topic that there is some miscommunication or something missing= in the spec and that you are working on rectifying with an update.  Ca= n you explain how we can fix the issue with intermediate node EH insertion f= or Ti-LFA use case even though not used in every implementation even though I= P LFA is much more widely used then traditional TE FRR where Ti-LFA is provi= ding both capabilities in one feature Ti-LFA with SRv6 so we definitely have= to get this figured out with the RFC 8200 violation from a 6MAN perspective= .

Regards,

Gyan
=

Many thx,
R.



<= /div>










 

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 3:06 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Hi R= obert 

I know we have gone through many many lengthy= discussions adnosium and I know the question has come up a few times and I k= now you replied back a few times related to the service provider use case wh= ere we end up with the multiple violations of RFC 8200 related to intermedia= te nodes EH insertion as well as many EH insertions occurring and what was m= entioned was Ti-LFA.  So since LFA and Remote LFA are extensions of the= IGP providing the 50ms failover similar to traditional mpls Fast Reroute ca= pabilities NH & NNH link/node/path protection in the legacy TE FRR pce t= he head end PE LSR adds and additional mpls shim for FRR.

With IP LFA and remote LFA used with LDP there are IGP extensions opa= que LSA=E2=80=99s that provide the pre programmed backup path provided by LFA= loop free backup path.  In that scenario with LDP there is not any add= itional label with LFA but with remote LFA is added for the Remote LFA backu= p path with LDP session protection enabled with targeted LDP session tunnled= through the RLFA node.

So now talking SRv6 with Ti= LFA why is there an EH insertion as we are not using mpls LDP and not doing= remote LFA and this is not the traditional mpls TE FRR.

I am not getting it from a network engineering technical standpoint wh= at the use case is and why EH insertion would occur on any intermediate node= as that even in the legacy mpls TE world its on the ingress LSR PE and for t= hat matter in this case the benefit of SRv6 is =E2=80=9Cnative TE=E2=80=9D s= ource routing via SRH pssi instructions and not maintaining state on the int= ermediate nodes which just do the PSSI and copy the SRH destination rewrite o= f IPv6 destination for the traffic engineered path and then do PSP or USP on= the egress node of the service provider core.

I de= signed and manage a fairly large mpls core for Verizon and if their is a asi= c processing penalty hit due to intermediate node EH insertion we don=E2=80=99= t want it and will stay course with LDP and stick with our path targeting SR= -MPLS and ditch any ideas of ever going to SRv6.

Th= anks in advance for help in clarification of this topic and I think understa= nding the use case would help 6man overall understand the justification of t= he RFC 8200 violations.

Thank you

Gyan Mishra
Verizon Communications 
Cell 30= 1 502-1347

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 19,= 2019, at 3:50 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Hi Reji,

No= tice what it says: " ... explicitly listed intermediate nodes ... "

CRH which is used in SRv6+ does not explicitly l= ist intermediate nodes so I do not think the procedures in IPv6 spec apply a= s the way you interpret them. 

But I am i no w= ay authoritative ... still learning IPv6 and this thread become great educat= ion. 

An real example where those procedure ap= ply is documented in RFC6554 which does put the addresses explicitly. <= /div>

Many thx,
Robert.


<= /div>






On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:14 PM Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Hi Robert,
>>I do not know what is the difference betwee= n IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed header and "final destination". Wher= e do you carry "final destination" address ? 
See Section 4.4 in RFC 8200.  Hope its clear what's t= he final destination and the context in which it is used.

      Segments Left       8-bit unsigned integer.  Number of=
 route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.


Regards
Reji
On Thu, Se= p 19, 2019 at 10:26 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
IPv6 fixed header has onl= y one destination address. So TE midpoint is either a packet's destination o= r not. It can not be both. 

I do not know what is th= e difference between IPv6 Destination Address in the fixed header and "final= destination". Where do you carry "final destination" address ? 
<= div>
Many  thx,
R.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 6:17 PM= Reji Thomas <rejithomas.d@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,

>>W=
ell the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each=
 IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200

 =46rom RFC 8200 that doesn't seem to be the case or at least=
 as I understand. See  Section 4.1 note 1 and note 3.=
 Am I missing something?
 
IPv6 he=
ader
      Hop-by-Hop Options header
      Destination Options header (note 1)
      Routing header
      Fragment header
      Authentication header (note 2)
      Encapsulating Security Payload header (note 2)
      Destination Options header (note 3)
      Upper-Layer header

      note 1: for options to be processed by the first destination that
              appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field plus
              subsequent destinations listed in the Routing header.

      note 2: additional recommendations regarding the relative order of
              the Authentication and Encapsulating Security Payload
              headers are given in [RFC4303].

      note 3: for options to be processed only by the final destination
              of the packet.

Regards
Reji

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:00 PM Robert Ra= szuk <rraszuk@gmai= l.com> wrote:

I disagree. PPSI and PSSI lev= erages the DOHs in IPv6 architecture better. The SRv6+ drafts explain the us= ecases better FYI.

=
W= ell the crux of the matter is that you still need to process all EHs at each= IPv6 destination which here means each transit node per RFC8200. That is re= gardless what any other spec says .... unfortunately. 

Best,
R.

 
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= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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= --Apple-Mail-9A666761-001F-4747-B733-334526818EEA-- From nobody Sat Sep 21 17:58:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D294120041; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yOTq-CJXpVzW; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x329.google.com (mail-ot1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4072012001E; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x329.google.com with SMTP id o44so781977ota.10; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:58:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FYDBzCn8Y5dSttAdB/MXeCoEn0cuDXseKWT8LXduPQM=; b=kWL3BHPJBViVpkIUnZQdoLslzyysgDeUxD+cfGcp5gaqoR8HO8woOkEoSSDs+Erodm 2S9N6jfoCX0FxmBnzA/vcpYynbm7IoMLRXPOl6pdozTcFE4bdBAds6awX2Uiu64uWNIm ApMRpoe1DpOcJW2A7hC8mUNXYGv65kj5sB3fKpLraM50duiqcjbK6dTzkOKLof2rUgq/ BA4+4kleNYvOsmeV8sjUrWtE9doSgjrSuFlJwiuHuO5S5psKivTlCrhEHTacDNNXuQ6P qyRpe525QZTjJPwsyUp8vIFZrq7hf1rSqRqdQJOnhSC5/CCmQzhjy1teQ30vlsN8zxrx K38Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FYDBzCn8Y5dSttAdB/MXeCoEn0cuDXseKWT8LXduPQM=; b=CeKZe13hm5nOqvbHbrXM6k6qBReo930An1r5LEF4KrA++vOFXkDP9/VkH1eocuQYcA qBJegSnvKrfPewu4pAeodzF2TkbDkRnKSS4xrcHup6lOFjAI24tTo2jsGSHKKrikglCs 6v/vAktPdqAai5kIcwfCdX6szaiQ4zrJYcs5zcHmMElaBPKLne7ViD0GLmGrup1YhCUj UIrmNeLpr7fz5/S8bFRBcuBLz7+T90z7KHV2uGGdAfCL4z1bjcA1KTwYUD6ElWlbvfa2 TSoHZYFHDOB6fWjKowZwNljt07B1lIzK45ntfX7EIaTXDFsPJJsiOFuyUyXcYbS4EAVH wmDg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU2wgQeufAhGfX52K0lYeI397J3P7+AOWyrh5TzLd7ijCaJJPNQ E2OTp/ExailDc+tlEM42l/joTqG3TDh3Xxqie4g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzBxmd1i3cFgOXGF6kLKMsievWVvHUy47qHzg3ro61b1dCHWImjsOHu/BMhUhrazS49VQ5JDnZA1RdQox8PLiU= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:22c2:: with SMTP id y60mr17983407ota.74.1569113910582; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 17:58:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> <41ca6fad-9e21-5d48-1f2c-0d9ce722920e@joelhalpern.com> <96836B6A-DFBC-48F4-923E-4415FB1ED63D@bell.ca> In-Reply-To: <96836B6A-DFBC-48F4-923E-4415FB1ED63D@bell.ca> From: Mark Smith Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 10:58:18 +1000 Message-ID: To: "Voyer, Daniel" Cc: "Joel M. Halpern" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000040a42c059319cd46" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 00:58:33 -0000 --00000000000040a42c059319cd46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 22 Sep 2019, 03:02 Voyer, Daniel, wrote: > Hi Joel, > > Sent from my mobile > > > On Sep 21, 2019, at 00:54, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > > > > I see where the draft defines a set of constraints. > > The constraint that there be no other extension headers is a fairly > drastic constraint, which would seem a cause for concern. > > > > Putting that aside however, the draft does not seem to provide any > explanation for why insertion rather than additional encapsulation is > used. Particularly given the assumption that the MTU is large enough, it > seems the encapsulation could be used for all insertion cases. > > > DV: correct, you can use encapsulations but at the cost of 40bytes > overhead. Running an operators backbone, with a widespread among of use > cases, you need those bytes.. > Clear evidence that 128 bit SIDs are the actual problem. These SIDs can literally encode more values than the entire possible IPv6 unicast address space can. There can literally be more SID values than there will ever be IPv6 hosts for all time. That can't be a requirement if SR can operate adequately operate over MPLS with only 20 bit SIDs. Surely 16 or 32 bit SIDs would be adequate when operating SR over IPv6. Give up these massive 128 bit SIDs for a much more functionally appropriate size and you can use RFC8200 compliant operations without any overhead concerns. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > Regards > Dan > > > >> On 9/21/2019 12:34 AM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > >> Hello everyone, we=E2=80=99ve just submitted an updated draft that exp= lains why > SRH insertion is performed in an SR domain, how it is accomplished and wh= y > it is safe within the SR domain. > >> The authors look forward to your comments and suggestions on how to > improve this document. > >> Thanks! > >> Darren (on behalf of the authors) > >>> Begin forwarded message: > >>> > >>> *From: *> > >>> *Subject: **New Version Notification for > draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt* > >>> *Date: *September 21, 2019 at 12:20:13 AM EDT > >>> > >>> > >>> A new version of I-D, > draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt > >>> has been successfully submitted by Darren Dukes and posted to the > >>> IETF repository. > >>> > >>> Name:draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion > >>> Revision:07 > >>> Title:Insertion of IPv6 Segment Routing Headers in a Controlled Domai= n > >>> Document date:2019-09-20 > >>> Group:Individual Submission > >>> Pages:13 > >>> URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-in= sertion-07.txt > >>> Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insert= ion/ > >>> Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-0= 7 > >>> Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-i= nsertion > >>> Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-voyer-6man-extension-header-ins= ertion-07 > >>> > >>> Abstract: > >>> Traffic traversing an SR domain is encapsulated in an outer IPv6 > >>> header for its journey through the SR domain. > >>> > >>> To implement transport services strictly within the SR domain, the = SR > >>> domain may require insertion or removal of an SRH after the outer > >>> IPv6 header of the SR domain. Any segment within the SRH is strict= ly > >>> contained within the SR domain. > >>> > >>> The SR domain always preserves the end-to-end integrity of traffic > >>> traversing it. No extension header is manipulated, inserted or > >>> removed from an inner transported packet. The packet leaving the S= R > >>> domain is exactly the same (except for the hop-limit update) as the > >>> packet entering the SR domain. > >>> > >>> The SR domain is designed with link MTU sufficiently greater than t= he > >>> MTU at the ingress edge of the SR domain. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org < > http://tools.ietf.org>. > >>> > >>> The IETF Secretariat > >>> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> ipv6@ietf.org > >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > > External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / > Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --00000000000040a42c059319cd46 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, 22 Sep 2019, 03:02 Voyer, Daniel, <daniel.voyer@bell.ca> wrote:
Hi Joel,

Sent from my mobile

> On Sep 21, 2019, at 00:54, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
>
> I see where the draft defines a set of constraints.
> The constraint that there be no other extension headers is a fairly dr= astic constraint, which would seem a cause for concern.
>
> Putting that aside however, the draft does not seem to provide any exp= lanation for why insertion rather than additional encapsulation is used.=C2= =A0 Particularly given the assumption that the MTU is large enough, it seem= s the encapsulation could be used for all insertion cases.
>
DV: correct, you can use encapsulations but at the cost of 40bytes overhead= . Running an operators backbone, with a widespread among of use cases, you = need those bytes..

=
Clear evidence that 128 bit SIDs are the actual problem.<= /div>

These SIDs can literally= encode more values than the entire possible IPv6 unicast address space can= . There can literally be more SID values than there will ever be IPv6 hosts= for all time.

That can&= #39;t be a requirement if SR can operate adequately operate over MPLS with = only 20 bit SIDs. Surely 16 or 32 bit SIDs would be adequate when operating= SR over IPv6.

Give up t= hese massive 128 bit SIDs for a much more functionally appropriate size and= you can use RFC8200 compliant operations without any overhead concerns.








> Yours,
> Joel
Regards
Dan
>
>> On 9/21/2019 12:34 AM, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote:
>> Hello everyone, we=E2=80=99ve just submitted an updated draft that= explains why SRH insertion is performed in an SR domain, how it is accompl= ished and why it is safe within the SR domain.
>> The authors look forward to your comments and suggestions on how t= o improve this document.
>> Thanks!
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Darren (on behalf of the authors)
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> *From: *<= internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>>
>>> *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-exte= nsion-header-insertion-07.txt*
>>> *Date: *September 21, 2019 at 12:20:13 AM EDT
>>>
>>>
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insert= ion-07.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Darren Dukes and posted to = the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>
>>> Name:draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion
>>> Revision:07
>>> Title:Insertion of IPv6 Segment Routing Headers in a Controlle= d Domain
>>> Document date:2019-09-20
>>> Group:Individual Submission
>>> Pages:13
>>> URL: https://www.iet= f.org/internet-drafts/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt
>>> Status: https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion/
>>> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/= html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07
>>> Htmlized: https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion
>>> Diff: https://www.ietf.or= g/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Traffic traversing an SR domain is encapsulated in= an outer IPv6
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0header for its journey through the SR domain.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0To implement transport services strictly within th= e SR domain, the SR
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain may require insertion or removal of an SRH = after the outer
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv6 header of the SR domain.=C2=A0 Any segment wi= thin the SRH is strictly
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0contained within the SR domain.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SR domain always preserves the end-to-end inte= grity of traffic
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0traversing it.=C2=A0 No extension header is manipu= lated, inserted or
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0removed from an inner transported packet.=C2=A0 Th= e packet leaving the SR
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain is exactly the same (except for the hop-lim= it update) as the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet entering the SR domain.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SR domain is designed with link MTU sufficient= ly greater than the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MTU at the ingress edge of the SR domain.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time= of submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org <http://tools.ietf.org>.<= br> >>>
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= --
>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>> ipv6@ietf.org
>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= --
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= --------
> External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments = / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints
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Sat, 21 Sep 2019 18:24:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 11:24:38 +1000 Message-ID: To: Tom Herbert Cc: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000072a30e05931a2b23" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 01:24:54 -0000 --00000000000072a30e05931a2b23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 22 Sep 2019, 03:04 Tom Herbert, wrote: > Some comments: > > Most of the constraints listed section 2.2 should be specified as > normative requirements. > > "SR domain link MTU is sufficiently greater than the MTU at the > ingress edge of the SR domain..." should be the requirement: "The MTU > for all paths in the domain MUST be large enough to accommodate the > maximum length of an inserted SRH" > > Also, for sizing MTU some guidance to the operator to determine what > the maximum length SRH they will ever need would be useful. > > "Within the context of this document and the described SRH use-case > within the SR domain, the SR domain can guarantee that SRH is the sole > extension header after the outer IPv6 header." should be the > requirement "An SRH MUST NOT be inserted into a packet that already > has extension headers" > > "All traffic within the SR domain has IPv6 source and destination > address within the SR domain." should be requirement: "All traffic > within the SR domain MUST have an IPv6 source and destination address > that is within the SR domain." > > Similarly, "Only traffic sourced from and destined to nodes in the SR > domain may have an SRH inserted." could be: "Traffic sourced from or > destined to a node outside of the SR domain MUST NOT have an SRH > inserted." > > About "IPv6 encapsulation and optional insertion of SRH at the SR > domain ingress edge generates a new IPv6 packet." and "IPv6 > encapsulation and SRH insertion at SR Domain ingress edge." > > This is a bit confusing in the use of the word "insertion" in the > context of encapsulation, and on first read it seemed to be allowing > SRH insertion at ingress into the domain (without encapsulating). > Instead of saying "insertion" here, maybe something like "the SRH may > be included when encapsulating". That is, reserve the term "insertion" > to explicitly mean when SRH is being inserted into an existing IPv6 > packet without encapsulating. > The entire use of the word "insertion" is incorrect if the ID is now only proposing encapsulation/tunnelling to carry transit traffic across the SR domain. According to Google, the meaning of "insert" is: place, fit, or push (something) into something else. The process of encapsulation, by creating a new IPv6 packet, and creating one or more new EHs following it (which may be derived from EHs received from somewhere else), and then carrying the existing packet unmodified as payload in the new packet, does not involve any "place, fit, or push (something) *into* something else". Encapsulation is addition to the outside of the existing. I don't really understand why people are seeming to want to cling to using the word insertion, despite it being entirely inaccurate when using encapsulation. > The attribution problem hasn't been addressed. I imagine it may be > possible to put the address of the node inserting an SRH somewhere in > the header in order to provide proper attribution. > At each point where a function using the SRH needs to be performed, that is one segment's and point, and another segment's start point. They would also be an IPv6 tunnel end point and another tunnel's start point (segments and tunnels are 1:1). The new outgoing segment tunnel header would have the local device as its source address, providing attribution. In other words a sequence of segments in an SR over IPv6 network would be a sequence of distinct IPv6 tunnels, 1:1 for the entire path. This model is entirely compliant with RFC 8200, and as tunnels end points are hosts using RFC 8200's definitions, host EHs such as Destination Option, or AH and ESP can be used in an RFC 8200 compliant manner. Regards, Mark. > Tom > > > Tom > > On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:35 PM Darren Dukes (ddukes) > wrote: > > > > Hello everyone, we=E2=80=99ve just submitted an updated draft that expl= ains why > SRH insertion is performed in an SR domain, how it is accomplished and wh= y > it is safe within the SR domain. > > > > The authors look forward to your comments and suggestions on how to > improve this document. > > > > Thanks! > > Darren (on behalf of the authors) > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > From: > > Subject: New Version Notification for > draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt > > Date: September 21, 2019 at 12:20:13 AM EDT > > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.tx= t > > has been successfully submitted by Darren Dukes and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion > > Revision: 07 > > Title: Insertion of IPv6 Segment Routing Headers in a Controlled Domain > > Document date: 2019-09-20 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 13 > > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-in= sertion-07.txt > > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insert= ion/ > > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-0= 7 > > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-i= nsertion > > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-voyer-6man-extension-header-ins= ertion-07 > > > > Abstract: > > Traffic traversing an SR domain is encapsulated in an outer IPv6 > > header for its journey through the SR domain. > > > > To implement transport services strictly within the SR domain, the SR > > domain may require insertion or removal of an SRH after the outer > > IPv6 header of the SR domain. Any segment within the SRH is strictly > > contained within the SR domain. > > > > The SR domain always preserves the end-to-end integrity of traffic > > traversing it. No extension header is manipulated, inserted or > > removed from an inner transported packet. The packet leaving the SR > > domain is exactly the same (except for the hop-limit update) as the > > packet entering the SR domain. > > > > The SR domain is designed with link MTU sufficiently greater than the > > MTU at the ingress edge of the SR domain. > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --00000000000072a30e05931a2b23 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, 22 Sep 2019, 03:04 Tom Herbert, <tom@herbertland.com> wrote:


The entire use of = the word "insertion" is incorrect if the ID is now only proposing= encapsulation/tunnelling to carry transit traffic across the SR domain.

According to Google, the m= eaning of "insert" is:

place= , fit, or push (something) into something else.


The process of encap= sulation, by creating a new IPv6 packet, and creating one or more new EHs f= ollowing it (which may be derived from EHs received from somewhere else), a= nd then carrying the existing packet unmodified as payload in the new packe= t, does not involve any "place, fit, or push (something) *into* something else".=

Encapsulation is= addition to the outside of the existing.

=
I don't really understand why people are seeming to w= ant to cling to using the word insertion, despite it being entirely inaccur= ate when using encapsulation.



The attribution problem hasn't been addressed. I imagine it may be
possible to put the address of the node inserting an SRH somewhere in
the header in order to provide proper attribution.

At each point where a fun= ction using the SRH needs to be performed, that is one segment's and po= int, and another segment's start point.

They would also be an IPv6 tunnel end point and another= tunnel's start point (segments and tunnels are 1:1). The new outgoing = segment tunnel header would have the local device as its source address, pr= oviding attribution.

In = other words a sequence of segments in an SR over IPv6 network would be a se= quence of distinct IPv6 tunnels, 1:1 for the entire path.

This model is entirely compliant with RFC= 8200, and as tunnels end points are hosts using RFC 8200's definitions= , host EHs such as Destination Option, or AH and ESP can be used in an RFC = 8200 compliant manner.

<= br>
Regards,
Mark.



Tom


Tom

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 9:35 PM Darren Dukes (ddukes) <ddukes@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone, we=E2=80=99ve just submitted an updated draft that exp= lains why SRH insertion is performed in an SR domain, how it is accomplishe= d and why it is safe within the SR domain.
>
> The authors look forward to your comments and suggestions on how to im= prove this document.
>
> Thanks!
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Darren (on behalf of the authors)
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>=
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-heade= r-insertion-07.txt
> Date: September 21, 2019 at 12:20:13 AM EDT
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.t= xt
> has been successfully submitted by Darren Dukes and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name: draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion
> Revision: 07
> Title: Insertion of IPv6 Segment Routing Headers in a Controlled Domai= n
> Document date: 2019-09-20
> Group: Individual Submission
> Pages: 13
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http= s://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertio= n-07.txt
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker= .ietf.org/doc/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/html/draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion
> Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://= www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07<= /a>
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Traffic traversing an SR domain is encapsulated in an oute= r IPv6
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0header for its journey through the SR domain.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0To implement transport services strictly within the SR dom= ain, the SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain may require insertion or removal of an SRH after th= e outer
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0IPv6 header of the SR domain.=C2=A0 Any segment within the= SRH is strictly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0contained within the SR domain.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SR domain always preserves the end-to-end integrity of= traffic
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0traversing it.=C2=A0 No extension header is manipulated, i= nserted or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0removed from an inner transported packet.=C2=A0 The packet= leaving the SR
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0domain is exactly the same (except for the hop-limit updat= e) as the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0packet entering the SR domain.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The SR domain is designed with link MTU sufficiently great= er than the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0MTU at the ingress edge of the SR domain.
>
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--00000000000072a30e05931a2b23-- From nobody Sat Sep 21 21:01:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73E0C120125 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 21:01:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iTn0tMnublDo for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 21:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3141120059 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2019 21:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A7C9E846AAA2926BEE68; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 05:01:03 +0100 (IST) Received: from lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) by LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 05:01:03 +0100 Received: from lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) by lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 05:01:03 +0100 Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 05:01:02 +0100 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.245]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 12:00:54 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Ron Bonica , Jeff Tantsura CC: SING Team , EXT - daniel.bernier , SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Thread-Index: AQHVcPpUFOJR3Bh3YUKv1CbJRl7wjQ== Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 04:00:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1568906072231.1bkuswxveutxvlrzmmzkgs2g@android.mail.163.com> <20625BDC-2D90-4E35-96E3-2BC4B723C06E@bell.ca> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026F2404dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 04:01:10 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026F2404dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision. But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH. If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture. If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you. Best regards, Cheng ________________________________ =1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: Ron Bonica> To: Jeff Tantsura>;= Chengli (Cheng Li)> Cc: SING Team>;EXT - daniel.bernier>;SPRING WG List> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17 Jeff, After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that= it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in = the next version of the draft. In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, ins= ertion is not needed. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeff Tantsura Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Ron Bonica Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <= daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :) Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market that extensively use B= SID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need bindin= g SID. Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-= domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted n= etwork domain. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt n= eed to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026F2404dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.<= br>
If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture.

If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.=

Best regards,
Cheng




=1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com



From: Ron Bonica<rbon= ica@juniper.net>
To: Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team<s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<daniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List&l= t;spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing
Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

Jeff,

 

After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ im= plementors, we decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv= 6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Sinc= e the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.c= om>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <= rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bern= ier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.= org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MP= LS label =3D CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:0= 9 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@j= uniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding = SID to SRv6+. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding on= e.

 

However, there is another way to get exac= tly the same behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type= .

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the follow= ing SFIB entry:

 

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID type: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also have the followi= ng route on Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with s= pecified destination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same forwarding behavi= or as a binding SID.

 

       = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;  Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on= the market that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-lay= er signaling.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentio= ned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We should s= ee the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since i= t hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always import= ant.

 

Since the E= H insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don=1B$B!G= =1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need binding SID.

Let=1B$B!G= =1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain rou= ting. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network dom= ain.

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

+1

 

This is = what we did on our multi-cloud trials.

 

Encap wi= th Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need = to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

 

Dan

 

On 2= 019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf o= f s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

&nbs= p;

Hi Andrew,<= br>
Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49,=  Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: =

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________=  
spring mailing list 
spring@iet= f..org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/Spring  

_________________________________________= ______
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB026F2404dggeml529mbxchi_-- From nobody Sun Sep 22 06:52:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0CF1120018; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:52:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vrHgzPrjJhqM; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x42c.google.com (mail-pf1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83DFE12009E; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id a2so7336175pfo.10; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:52:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6pyvSDdwR63u/OAPmf3TJAl2RWWrlNNnxF+2aR9j9aA=; b=m8X5PDvF8I+lK44c6FR/a4ujkrUXCyHZdqkUPjJ0mcEtKBCbI47ZYYABu9rjPvyjG8 OhfCPvgGjHm1f4ZPZ7/pSUxVE7El+wXTbayuV94+o53p88rEwXnlqKEkbreycoHIsmT/ X9CkXUcIx0hUmKLpU/dWDOhwkzIzhZe4AJJuiZF1kvCTWED6IAMYdV6t87ZiRU88+qYJ 4SYek8qQmA0bwokvmJXODzLjXiXOjpndEFCFyLUQlgVnB7QNoLekDYJBzyiGRCsQC9jE GUl+v/aVhhm+lLT/uxxSdbAejLrWnwQDSGEysgZk05+SYIA53LIj3kZJS9ndcrhdbm1m fj2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6pyvSDdwR63u/OAPmf3TJAl2RWWrlNNnxF+2aR9j9aA=; b=ppzItX7XPSRColOD4P0Ly8sTrvwvxG7DTniwTDbSRio4ONUE+h9gpmy+u9uiOAavmi d7zqb/OAQPkbkc5zLRIrc7+V5h2qkCgPCYwbVwAWC9Ma8BMmzJRtjubyTDRDXQY+drZ8 cvQGtZegnH4vBrYjxr5eYRxB1vqBg4ZsqDJ1niU+ffSesjJ0Qyl9q9rN84vsl1hkjxOK NoCjklRcTOFlqFz/NF3Z+zDthMRiWNRF36wIjlByXLovLrwwGGIN/41o9m89fnQW7Png n03thdxA6iDFRw3szj2GJxoJy1qvjnmOmUwwcRpPAHr4nfmobUxLe+NA+EVEZZ7JlPiL H0lg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV0TkKfm31jgkxrWuElaFSrZm6OP87DauZN+2AcmH9N2Uu3Lz/h vDOglaRm5OKyyJ+HrGcWJOfdnfXX/ENPljmL4eo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwGlKajctpVc5iyhruWk3NQoDttrlU92HhBTFaFvJUHZ0LbxJ9JSIGoTKTRb2DUOp8+JHUGONtYBTM57zEr3iw= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9a94:: with SMTP id w20mr4459440pfi.77.1569160348450; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:52:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 15:52:17 +0200 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Tom Herbert , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a43140593249dce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 13:52:32 -0000 --0000000000002a43140593249dce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Mark, > The entire use of the word "insertion" is incorrect if the ID is now only > proposing encapsulation/tunnelling to carry transit traffic across the SR > domain. > That is not what the discussed draft says. The draft proposes encapsulation on ingress edge of the domain, decapsulation on the egress edge of the domain AND freedom of insertion, deletion (and IMHO also it should also add modification) of any SRH(s) within the encapsulated header at any point in the domain. Yes there can be more then one SRH per current notion of the draft too during the protection. The new outgoing segment tunnel header would have the local device as its > source address, providing attribution. > Who told you that ? Just please read network programming draft and you see that "swapping" source address is never the case at segment end points: Quote: Node 8 originates packets with the received SRH with HMAC TLV. P15:(*A8*,S5)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3;HMAC) Node 5 receives and verifies the HMAC for the SRH, then forwards the packet to the next segment P16:(*A8*,S7)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=2;HMAC) Node 6 receives P17:(*A8*,S6)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=1;HMAC) Node 9 receives P18:(*A8*,A9)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=0;HMAC) Please notice that encapsulated packet by A8 has source address of A8. And that never changes through the entire domain ! Are you now questioning the entire concept of SRv6 architecture ? Just FYI all documents describing SRv6+ architecture and CRH also do not swap source address at segment end nodes. Ref draft-bonica-6man-comp-rtg-hdr-07 - Appendix A where src *2001:db8::a* never changes. This model is entirely compliant with RFC 8200, and as tunnels end points > are hosts using RFC 8200's definitions, host EHs such as Destination > Option, or AH and ESP can be used in an RFC 8200 compliant manner. > See the issue you are missing is that even if one would follow strictly to what you are recommending in SRv6 it is still not possible to enable TI-LFA with SR in the domain as you can not just treat each PLR as Segment End node. Of course I guess you can question if TI-LFA with SRv6 is something IPv6 want to support with SR - but as there is some demand I guess more rationale is required then just say "No". And of course using SRH is one way to encode TE topology for TI-LFA. There are other options too, but for now this discussion is about use of SRv6 technology to achieve that. Kind regards, R. --0000000000002a43140593249dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Mar= k,

=C2=A0
The entire use of the word &= quot;insertion" is incorrect if the ID is now only proposing encapsula= tion/tunnelling to carry transit traffic across the SR domain.

That is not what the= discussed draft says. The draft proposes encapsulation on ingress edge of = the domain, decapsulation on the egress edge of the domain AND freedom of i= nsertion, deletion (and IMHO also it should also add modification) of any S= RH(s) within the encapsulated header at any point in the domain. Yes there = can be more then one SRH per current notion of the draft too during the pro= tection.=C2=A0

=C2=A0The new outgoing segment tun= nel header would have the local device as its source address, providing att= ribution.

Wh= o told you that ?=C2=A0

Just please read network programming draft and you see that "swappin= g" source address is never the case at segment end points:=C2=A0
=

Quote:=C2=A0

      Node 8 originates packets with the received S=
RH with HMAC TLV.
=
   P15:(A8,S5)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3D3;HMAC)

   Node 5 receives and verifies the HMAC for the SRH, then forwards the
   packet to the next segment

   P16:(A8,S7)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3D2;HMAC)

   Node 6 receives

   P17:(A8,S6)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3D1;HMAC)

   Node 9 receives

   P18:(A8,A9)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3D0;HMAC)



Please notice that encapsulated packet by A8 has source addr=
ess of A8. And that never changes through the entire domain !=C2=A0 

Are you now questioning the enti=
re concept of SRv6 architecture ?

= 
Just FY=
I all documents describing SRv6+ architecture and CRH also do not swap sour=
ce address at segment end nodes. 

Ref draft-bonica-6man-comp-rtg-hdr-07=
 - Appendix A where src 2001:db8::a never changes.
=

This model is entirely complian= t with RFC 8200, and as tunnels end points are hosts using RFC 8200's d= efinitions, host EHs such as Destination Option, or AH and ESP can be used = in an RFC 8200 compliant manner.

See the issue you are missing is that even if one woul= d follow strictly to what you are recommending in SRv6 it is still not poss= ible to enable TI-LFA with SR in the domain as you can not just treat each = PLR as Segment End node.=C2=A0

Of course I guess you can question if TI-LFA with SRv6 is somethin= g IPv6 want to support with SR - but as there is some demand I guess more r= ationale is required then just say "No".=C2=A0 And of course usin= g SRH is one way to encode TE topology for TI-LFA. There are other options = too, but for now this discussion is about use of SRv6 technology to achieve= that.=C2=A0

Kind rega= rds,
R.
=C2=A0
--0000000000002a43140593249dce-- From nobody Sun Sep 22 14:37:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03AD12004C; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 14:37:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L6Vt8WWl2Zdf; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 14:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3F4B120024; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 14:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.7.112] (unknown [85.104.108.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EA19A862A8; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 23:36:54 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk , Mark Smith Cc: SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: <0628b25a-157e-43bc-34ab-0d9c36103cdd@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 00:36:46 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 21:37:01 -0000 On 22/9/19 16:52, Robert Raszuk wrote: [....] > > Of course I guess you can question if TI-LFA with SRv6 is something IPv6 > want to support with SR - but as there is some demand I guess more > rationale is required then just say "No". It's the other way around: if anything, you need to make a case why you want to break IPv6. The onus is on you. Allowing EH insertion turns what was an e2e protocol into something else. -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Sun Sep 22 15:02:12 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101A1120089; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 15:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O4s_7Fn-W1Iw; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 15:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 955E6120024; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 15:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.7.112] (unknown [85.104.108.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 76A8D860FD; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 00:02:02 +0200 (CEST) To: Robert Raszuk , Mark Smith Cc: Tom Herbert , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 01:01:55 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 22:02:10 -0000 On 22/9/19 16:52, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hey Mark, > >   > > The entire use of the word "insertion" is incorrect if the ID is now > only proposing encapsulation/tunnelling to carry transit traffic > across the SR domain. > > > That is not what the discussed draft says. The draft proposes > encapsulation on ingress edge of the domain, decapsulation on the egress > edge of the domain AND freedom of insertion, deletion (and IMHO also it > should also add modification) of any SRH(s) within the encapsulated > header at any point in the domain. Yes there can be more then one SRH > per current notion of the draft too during the protection.  > >  The new outgoing segment tunnel header would have the local device > as its source address, providing attribution. > > > Who told you that ?  > > Just please read network programming draft and you see that "swapping" > source address is never the case at segment end points:  > > Quote:  > > Node 8 originates packets with the received SRH with HMAC TLV. > > P15:(*A8*,S5)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3;HMAC) > > Node 5 receives and verifies the HMAC for the SRH, then forwards the > packet to the next segment > > P16:(*A8*,S7)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=2;HMAC) > > Node 6 receives > > P17:(*A8*,S6)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=1;HMAC) > > Node 9 receives > > P18:(*A8*,A9)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=0;HMAC) > > > > Please notice that encapsulated packet by A8 has source address of A8. > And that never changes through the entire domain !  > > > Are you now questioning the entire concept of SRv6 architecture ? Curiously enough you seem to be specifying an architecture by breaking that of the protocol it relies on. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Sun Sep 22 21:05:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB53F1200F9; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sk3AvZLacWzA; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 21:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x343.google.com (mail-wm1-x343.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::343]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E80AE1200F8; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 21:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x343.google.com with SMTP id i16so8139740wmd.3; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 21:05:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=d+OA0mYgqf9NuMb6F7fAzMxWGbC5Kt6bBXoMSAxeXXA=; b=KXUmSIQII/c8ZMTcspUsT8XEEcKDSg935QY+tvK//QZDGiRVrw2RxbTJ4I2gH0PaAg w4xvTPcbcLVkW03/G4kCDBi/x0fR35L9PcLIYYgh5QDpXbq7v1J+WPMj5XsLY06FEumc e9aLGXQWGg9GvTC/zpDYme5NGeB6lbA9DsW1uHHixQsmwF0NarU5qqkRPwCXvfFSHWEX /a6shFYJ9C75FcH/3BOtYCXGqpT3d430ENU/PfCwtAXU8PwAG9T4a8csR9/BDZjD2XnC kBqBgpdTp1DCFDOijcm/iL6Sm/QOtcKXmNlzUlP0KjAlPbpvpWx2K+6BokKHwGWAPI9t oQLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=d+OA0mYgqf9NuMb6F7fAzMxWGbC5Kt6bBXoMSAxeXXA=; b=L837qsPMH+23X0SOQ9lY2UE9Ucj+0fQg60N5F/bRn3/7K/bTsOgCp/a2FrnB6EPbsU SpHnGCIKDVR7cPa0ZgZI1MwX1O0UWUf+yiDgjkPOwiSA2jsW0NWcGLomh+m6gQtvxyPd QdbaAHqfSV2h4Ml+Wo8LiLIctAaA0ZkgZxtidymCUZuVXZAFjUwhWwlvTySQqMiaOLXm VrINQ5bAs/NvnZvbjrzC5YetMyiWQ6FHC68zxdnwjXpEPVcRFjIId6uIQHQQ6iEKegRA KqIn3UG7JhzqXfNHFS2b1TQOaSkYgekTCtf3Wf3Mb/b0Av6I1HA8VLBeondBYfbSvvc+ ek/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUNyFgJeZFK1Ax0vFVUQyRWA/h3pcQHPdEGqlmTfLXsQo8XroHG hA1MNMq4T7Yrw/Bkl7h6Noei1bYp X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzmu54znoZODDQZ98CbVH7QH666+hwSlPkacI0f9XrVLeBSvZbWkY+tUc1oMf46rAjcW0yIGw== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:3904:: with SMTP id g4mr12684626wma.116.1569211522089; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 21:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h63sm13166939wmf.15.2019.09.22.21.05.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 22 Sep 2019 21:05:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <07BDC0CF-F3A3-45F4-A89E-CDACF1CF6D9F@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7B170200-5EB6-437A-AA6C-621783B129C5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 21:05:17 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , Mark Smith , Brian Carpenter To: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, SPRING WG References: <89AA4FDD-9812-48CD-8473-6E38E336E57F@cisco.com> <53236a02-a736-b40f-d885-78e0036af416@gmail.com> <77c06fa8-3f15-f697-8293-b12a48be18a4@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming: NH=59 action item closure X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 04:05:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7B170200-5EB6-437A-AA6C-621783B129C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, > On Sep 17, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Mark Smith = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019, 06:33 Brian E Carpenter, = wrote: > Ron, >=20 > You wrote: >=20 > > Isn't this [the Opaque header] also creating an opportunity for IETF = WGs to bypass IANA, creating their own registry, likely run badly? >=20 > More than that, it's creating an opportunity for operators to bypass = IETF standards as well as IANA. >=20 > Isn't that the essence of this whole discussion? >=20 > They can do it anyway, but defining the code point at least makes it = possible for firewalls to discard such traffic if it escapes. Hence my = comment about draft-ietf-opsec-ipv6-eh-filtering. >=20 >=20 > The word "opaque" means (from Google "meaning opaque"), >=20 > "not able to be seen through; not transparent" >=20 > If a protocol is opaque or not transparent to the IETF then that would = mean somebody else owns it; it's their property rather than the IETFs. >=20 > So somebody else's protocol being referred to by the IETF would fit = the definition of "proprietary": >=20 > "relating to an owner or ownership" >=20 >=20 > So I think Proprietary would be a much more accurate name for this = option if it were to go ahead. >=20 > I'd much rather it didn't so we had a transparent and open IETF = protocol. >=20 I also agree. Since I have started doing a little Wireshark development, I think = it=E2=80=99s important that new protocols be possible to parse with = network debugging tools like Wireshark. Having a code point that does = not have a reference that points to how to parse it makes network = debugging difficult if not impossible. I would prefer a code point that have both a descriptive name and points = to an open specification for what the protocol looks like that follows. = Especially since this work is being done in the IETF. Bob --Apple-Mail=_7B170200-5EB6-437A-AA6C-621783B129C5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl2IRH0ACgkQrut0EXfn u6iJMwgAwYJ/4cnkiAb6iUVklMwGFODmePhTCrsJmHGc5nauUcQbKlU0HENyeH9u TNE7BTBvBRahHZicNh8d9ORBK13NpIX3QHeqZlwtSmE2WxQAUDbZ8fOQkR+BG3yZ C0Y4ALqpPmQSwXMfvggXThtlTs8aVrMTmFjPi4dy7YQ57DKKkB6bUczBzdKudufl eCOf2nVNIYTxIJuSQY4tweD5bZd1U5sF6i9yMGIRYPVqw/yK9m2ZNrRTuG87TlSv 1vP0drLqa0gAzTs46GdB01PKpAJCRtsYrjQoUtRwwUfEZcpLRaRti5wKos3EjPdK Mt14x3m0Kc8ebVI0bMVd+S5A9yWn3Q== =EG97 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7B170200-5EB6-437A-AA6C-621783B129C5-- From nobody Mon Sep 23 00:09:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C9512011A; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 00:09:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kl7bHPlt6nub; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 00:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAC13120114; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 00:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id z6so11204643otb.2; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 00:09:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tbUAiMyKC5JYJSCwCDRRrOzmwaj4lNdx7f8gDYWd+4U=; b=HI27HbU0rSi8op75SaweiCgVnIAMG5FclZEAlumBNMNXKfBoy1rzVamC4784uY3ZPH pqspr81ijWXTXPo/hrAIk3iU+1eyxMdQVxkGEz4YKwCnnFG1LmClbrQVMcU+Ti5vm6J8 OPsTXV1iO7wDPbIC3cFCTH3E+tR0TpCz7FQQNF/IpcNXSq8zA2NiUsluQY0CMZ+tyAGp 2B8bNOgOgdnqzhPtZXyEGNUPb/YZi7zPyNXMBKOIVeiW7sHHsqX2NOBvT5Awc4H5MnzK S6IPJWSQnmbFpDgGum61OD/+QTVJM/XfHGF56M2mRlOCHOU5EQld0Xn8/hY8SQFKsIXf maqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tbUAiMyKC5JYJSCwCDRRrOzmwaj4lNdx7f8gDYWd+4U=; b=cqmo+8n13Tc/L38WawGBVOVDwmAtzZ3tE+xLBGvN/eadQ/XPI07vIg2CGAutjd9/dv TxLq4NlOmwoPxkK1EgwzyxhR0zgVZV+ypIZsAyULFT/Q6H5//XgDgBPXPpiFhX38oqn1 KR3HBMGccpTNvMvlitrXSioCkTlmmfixErjy0mWU40Tsz6atClC/dNbPW4mutf/Yp0FD hKUzd+Ba3x+vQT7HeK9lkQR0ghagT8PwqrbGLJ0/8I8OxctWjBnuevLiInxmcKR8qlMt upmRDp9CBvqrdKxyHgPPeyy3LRV8+Q3jQzEkoWGNX3gLNJMQdhO3JIgZs4WpKyC0FqF1 rACQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXllNN5Y/WVPM65t5rLMoULZQiKlSaE/ofSHAb7//U6MEW5mKcg HKKPKXvE84IfEclZ7ikvJ1WFdhQ8DxRWntlMJCo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwC/rtOk+E1HGynoTCcE6jf3RgJlj/AFLnssAnwiQT8aIRkv48O3MWBN8ylNTfWP3i1IcRfj4OgtlPf+t8/yc4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:18b:: with SMTP id q11mr20801853ota.94.1569222550945; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 00:09:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156903961357.5092.16907354634703727132.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <21D937AA-0B27-4E8D-BB6E-99452F72AC30@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:08:44 +1000 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Tom Herbert , SPRING WG , 6man <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-voyer-6man-extension-header-insertion-07.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 07:09:13 -0000 On Sun, 22 Sep 2019 at 23:52, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hey Mark, > > >> >> The entire use of the word "insertion" is incorrect if the ID is now onl= y proposing encapsulation/tunnelling to carry transit traffic across the SR= domain. > > > That is not what the discussed draft says. The draft proposes encapsulati= on on ingress edge of the domain, decapsulation on the egress edge of the d= omain AND freedom of insertion, deletion (and IMHO also it should also add = modification) of any SRH(s) within the encapsulated header at any point in = the domain. Yes there can be more then one SRH per current notion of the dr= aft too during the protection. > Sigh, now you're inserting into the outer IPv6 packet. Still not allowed. I'm getting off of this merry go around. I can't spend any more time on thi= s. This Internet Draft is a denial of service attack on the 6man working group, exhausting resources that could be better spent elsewhere. This ID has been submitted now 7 times, and despite how many times it has been pointed out that EH insertion is prohibited, how RFC 8200 has been specifically updated to be more explicit about it, how many times I and others have pointed out the protocol, practical and operational problems it causes, that is being ignored. I'm not going to point out how CRH/SRv6 complies with RFC 8200. It does, and if you don't understand how, then you'll need to read RFC 8200 more thoroughly. >> The new outgoing segment tunnel header would have the local device as i= ts source address, providing attribution. > > > Who told you that ? > > Just please read network programming draft and you see that "swapping" so= urce address is never the case at segment end points: > > Quote: > > Node 8 originates packets with the received SRH with HMAC TLV. > > P15:(A8,S5)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3D3;HMAC) > > Node 5 receives and verifies the HMAC for the SRH, then forwards the > packet to the next segment > > P16:(A8,S7)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3D2;HMAC) > > Node 6 receives > > P17:(A8,S6)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3D1;HMAC) > > Node 9 receives > > P18:(A8,A9)(A9,S6,S7,S5;SL=3D0;HMAC) > > > > Please notice that encapsulated packet by A8 has source address of A8. An= d that never changes through the entire domain ! > > > Are you now questioning the entire concept of SRv6 architecture ? > > > Just FYI all documents describing SRv6+ architecture and CRH also do not = swap source address at segment end nodes. > > > Ref draft-bonica-6man-comp-rtg-hdr-07 - Appendix A where src 2001:db8::a = never changes. > > >> This model is entirely compliant with RFC 8200, and as tunnels end point= s are hosts using RFC 8200's definitions, host EHs such as Destination Opti= on, or AH and ESP can be used in an RFC 8200 compliant manner. > > > See the issue you are missing is that even if one would follow strictly t= o what you are recommending in SRv6 it is still not possible to enable TI-L= FA with SR in the domain as you can not just treat each PLR as Segment End = node. > > Of course I guess you can question if TI-LFA with SRv6 is something IPv6 = want to support with SR - but as there is some demand I guess more rational= e is required then just say "No". And of course using SRH is one way to en= code TE topology for TI-LFA. There are other options too, but for now this = discussion is about use of SRv6 technology to achieve that. > > Kind regards, > R. > From nobody Mon Sep 23 07:45:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E5F1200D7 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 07:45:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VbFpx9_yBplg for ; 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charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cheng, In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because: * A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long * An IPv6 address is 128-bits long * Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IP= v6 address to a SID The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in th= e CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry. There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following informa= tion: * An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header) * A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM To: Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tantsura Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <= daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision. But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH. If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture. If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you. Best regards, Cheng ________________________________ =1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: Ron Bonica> To: Jeff Tantsura>;= Chengli (Cheng Li)> Cc: SING Team>;EXT - daniel.bernier>;SPRING WG List> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17 Jeff, After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that= it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in = the next version of the draft. In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, ins= ertion is not needed. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeff Tantsura > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Ron Bonica > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :) Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market that extensively use B= SID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need bindin= g SID. Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-= domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted n= etwork domain. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt n= eed to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BN7PR05MB56991292E57307D8302B1DEBAE850BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cheng,

&nbs= p;

In SRv6&#= 43;, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because:

  • A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long
  • An IPv6 address is 128-bits= long
  • Therefore, it = is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IPv6 address to a SID<= o:p>

The bindi= ng SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in the CRH. Li= ke all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry.

&nbs= p;

There wil= l be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following information:

  • An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in= the outer IPv6 header)
  • A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH

         &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;             &= nbsp;    Ron

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei= .com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jeffta= nt.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bern= ier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.= org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.<= br>
If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture.

If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.=

Best regards,
Cheng


=1B$B= M{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com

From: Ron Bonica<rbonica= @juniper.net>

To: Jeff Tantsura<= jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli13@huawei.com>

Cc: SING Team<= s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<daniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<spring@ietf.org>=

Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

 

Jeff,

 

After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ im= plementors, we decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv= 6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Sinc= e the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MP= LS label =3D CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:0= 9 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@j= uniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6= +. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

 

However, there is another way to get exactly the sam= e behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB en= try:

 

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID type: prefix SID

    •  

    Now assume that was also have the following route on= Node N:

     

    2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified de= stination address and CRH

     

    This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a bin= ding SID.

     

            &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            Ron=

     

     

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
    Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
    To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>
    Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

     

    There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market= that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signalin= g.

     

    Regards,

    Jeff


    On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

    +1.

     

    As I mentioned before,= Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

    We should see the impo= rtant part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the= details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.=

     

    Since the EH insertion= related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think = anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need binding SID.

    Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be ho= nest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is = not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network domain.<= o:p>

     

    Cheng

     

     

    From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
    Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
    To: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
    Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
    Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

     

    +1<= /o:p>

     <= /o:p>

    This is what we did= on our multi-cloud trials.

     <= /o:p>

    Encap with Binding = SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need to have som= e sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

     <= /o:p>

    Dan

     <= /o:p>

    On 2= 019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf o= f s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

    &nbs= p;

    Hi Andrew,
    Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
    But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

    Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

    Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

    Best regards,
    Moonlight Thoughts


    (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

    On 09/19/2019 17:49,&nb= sp;    Andrew Alston wrote:
    Hi Guys, 

    I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

    So - the setup we used last night: =

    6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
    3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

    We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
    Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

    What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

    Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

    I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

    Thanks 

    Andrew 


    _______________________________________________=  
    spring mailing list 
    spring@iet= f..org 
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/Spring  

    _______________________________________________
    spring mailing list
    spring@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

--_000_BN7PR05MB56991292E57307D8302B1DEBAE850BN7PR05MB5699namp_-- From nobody Mon Sep 23 09:37:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1448212093B; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:37:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PajJn2E3rnKY; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:37:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72541120931; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.6]) by opfedar21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46cVNd0hsnz7vx1; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 18:37:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.70]) by opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 46cVNc6Skqz1xnY; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 18:37:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM33.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::c911:d24e:cc19:afa7%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 18:37:36 +0200 From: To: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" , SPRING WG List CC: idr wg Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy Thread-Index: AdVIa5SmJroPUcCZR8q84NofG0DylwAap4eAClUZXxA= Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:37:36 +0000 Message-ID: <29418_1569256656_5D88F4D0_29418_238_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C1A5D2@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <18897_1564666804_5D42EBB4_18897_192_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48BCF785@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C1A5D2OPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:37:49 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C1A5D2OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ketan, Thanks for the complete answer. And sorry for my delay in responding. More inline [Bruno] From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:ketant@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 4:37 AM To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; SPRING WG List Cc: idr wg Subject: RE: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy + IDR WG since some of the affected documents are IDR WG drafts Hi Bruno, I agree that the draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy [1] is the right = place to normatively define the different segment types and perhaps would h= ave been the right document to create an IANA registry for them. I also agree that the draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy [2] has a di= screpancy between its IANA section 8.4 for the Segment-List sub-TLV space a= nd section 2.4.3.2 (and it's sub-sections) where the different Segment Type= s have been defined. I will request the authors of this draft to fix the te= xt in section 2.4.3.2 (and it's sub-sections) for the types 8 and above to = adjust for the codepoint 9 allocated for the weight sub-TLV. At this point, given the implementations available and already deployed for= [2], I doubt if we can correct and map the segment types in that draft to = what has been defined in [1]. There is also the https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distrib= ution-11#section-9.7 which creates the Segment Types IANA registry (aligned= with [1]). [Bruno] This IANA registry seems BGP-LS specific. (sub-registry under "Bord= er Gateway Protocol - Link State (BGP-LS) Parameters") On a side note, =D8 "The registry contains the following codepoints (suggested values, to = be assigned by IANA)" Since you define a new registry, you can populate initial allocations at yo= ur own will. IOW :s/(suggested values, to be assigned by IANA)"/ And then I am not sure if draft-raza-spring-sr-policy-yang is able to benef= it/leverage the IANA registry from [1]. So unless we can have the IANA registry created via [1] being consistently = used in all dependent documents, I do not see much gain in setting up the S= egment Type registry under IANA at this point. [Bruno] Make sense, but brings three clarification questions: Is there a need for draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy to define numb= ers for the segment types (or is the name enough)? If yes, do we need such numbers of be unique (avoid collisions)? If yes, how do you propose to avoid code point collisions in the futur= e? (Or do you assume that there won't be future ones?) Thanks, Bruno Thanks, Ketan From: spring On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.c= om Sent: 01 August 2019 19:10 To: SPRING WG List Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy Hi authors, Speaking as individual contributor. This document seems to define multiple types of segments (1 to 11). May be this document would be the right place to define them normatively an= d creates the IANA registry for them. And this seems like a work for spring. Otherwise, there is a risk that other documents redefine them, possibly in = a non-consistent manner. (1) E.g. the BGP draft is not using the same type= numbers/name, which may bring confusion. I would expect YANG models to als= o need these types. BTW is there any chance to align the types in the BGP document or is this t= oo late? (alternatively may be changing the types in the sr-policy document) Thanks, Regards, Bruno (1) SR-policy: Type 1: SR-MPLS Label: Type 2: SRv6 SID: Type 3: IPv4 Prefix with optional SR Algorithm: Type 4: IPv6 Global Prefix with optional SR Algorithm for SR-MPLS: Type 5: IPv4 Prefix with Local Interface ID: Type 6: IPv4 Addresses for link endpoints as Local, Remote pair: Type 7: IPv6 Prefix and Interface ID for link endpoints as Local, Remote= pair for SR-MPLS: Type 8: IPv6 Addresses for link endpoints as Local, Remote pair for SR-M= PLS: Type 9: IPv6 Global Prefix with optional SR Algorithm for SRv6: Type 10: IPv6 Prefix and Interface ID for link endpoints as Local, Remot= e pair for SRv6: Type 11: IPv6 Addresses for link endpoints as Local, Remote pair for SRv= 6: BGP: 1 MPLS SID sub-TLV This document 2 SRv6 SID sub-TLV This document 3 IPv4 Node and SID sub-TLV This document 4 IPv6 Node and SID for SR-MPLS sub-TLV This document 5 IPv4 Node, index and SID sub-TLV This document 6 IPv4 Local/Remote addresses and SID sub-TLV This document 7 IPv6 Node, index for remote and local pair This document and SID for SR-MPLS sub-TLV 8 IPv6 Local/Remote addresses and SID sub-TLV This document 9 Weight sub-TLV This document 10 IPv6 Node and SID for SRv6 sub-TLV This document 11 IPv6 Node, index for remote and local pair This document and SID for SRv6 sub-TLV 12 IPv6 Local/Remote addresses and SID for This document SRv6 sub-TLV ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48C1A5D2OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ketan,

 =

Thanks for the complete = answer. And sorry for my delay in responding.

More inline [Bruno]=

 =

= From: Ketan Talaulikar (ketant) [mailto:ketant@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2019 4:37 AM
To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; SPRING WG List
Cc: idr wg
Subject: RE: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy

 

+ IDR WG since some of the affected doc= uments are IDR WG drafts

 

Hi Bruno,

 

I agree that the draft-ietf-spring-segment-= routing-policy [1] is the right place to normatively define the different s= egment types and perhaps would have been the right document to create an IANA registry for them.<= /p>

 

I also agree that the draft-ietf-idr-segmen= t-routing-te-policy [2] has a discrepancy between its IANA section 8.4 for = the Segment-List sub-TLV space and section 2.4.3.2 (and it’s sub-sections) where the different Segment Types ha= ve been defined. I will request the authors of this draft to fix the text i= n section 2.4.3.2 (and it’s sub-sections) for the types 8 and above t= o adjust for the codepoint 9 allocated for the weight sub-TLV.

 

At this point, given the implementations av= ailable and already deployed for [2], I doubt if we can correct and map the= segment types in that draft to what has been defined in [1].

 

There is also the https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-idr-te-lsp-distribution-11#section-9= .7 which creates the Segment Types IANA registry (aligned with [1]). 

[Bruno] This IANA registry seems BGP-LS sp=
ecific. (sub-registry under "=
Border Gateway Protocol - Link State (BGP-LS) Parameters")<=
/span>

On a side note, 

=D8  “The registry con=
tains the following codepoints (suggested val=
ues, to be assigned by IANA)”

Since you define a new r= egistry, you can populate initial allocations at your own will. IOW :s/(suggested = values, to be assigned by IANA)”/<= o:p>

 

 =

And then I am not sure if draft-raza-spring= -sr-policy-yang is able to benefit/leverage the IANA registry from [1].

 

So unless we can have the IANA registry cre= ated via [1] being consistently used in all dependent documents, I do not s= ee much gain in setting up the Segment Type registry under IANA at this point.

[Bruno] Make sense, but brings three clarification questions:

Is there a need for draf= t-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy to define numbers for the segment types (or is the name enough)?

  If yes, do we need such numbers of be unique (avoid collisions)?

     If yes, how do you propose to avoid code point collisions in the fut= ure? (Or do you assume that there won’t be future ones?)

 =

Thanks,

Bruno<= /p>

 =

 =

 =

 

Thanks,

Ketan

 

From:<= /b> spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: 01 August 2019 19:10
To: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy

 

Hi authors,

 

Speaking as individual contributor.

 

This document seems to define multiple type= s of segments (1 to 11).

May be this document would be the right pla= ce to define them normatively and creates the IANA registry for them. And t= his seems like a work for spring.

Otherwise, there is a risk that other docum= ents redefine them, possibly in a non-consistent manner. (1) E.g.  the= BGP draft is not using the same type numbers/name, which may bring confusion. I would expect YANG models to also need these t= ypes.

BTW is there any chance to align the types = in the BGP document or is this too late? (alternatively may be changing the= types in the sr-policy document)

 

Thanks,

Regards,

Bruno

 

(1)

SR-policy:

 


 


BGP:


   1     MP=
LS SID sub-TLV          &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;     This document


   2     SR=
v6 SID sub-TLV          &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;     This document


   3     IP=
v4 Node and SID sub-TLV        &nbs=
p;          This document=



   4     IP=
v6 Node and SID for SR-MPLS sub-TLV       Thi=
s document


   5     IP=
v4 Node, index and SID sub-TLV       &nb=
sp;    This document


   6     IP=
v4 Local/Remote addresses and SID sub-TLV This document

   7     IP=
v6 Node, index for remote and local pair  This document


       =
;  and SID for SR-MPLS sub-TLV


   8     IP=
v6 Local/Remote addresses and SID sub-TLV This document

   9     We=
ight sub-TLV          &nb=
sp;            =
       This document


   10    IPv6 No=
de and SID for SRv6 sub-TLV        =
  This document


   11    IPv6 No=
de, index for remote and local pair  This document

       =
;  and SID for SRv6 sub-TLV


   12    IPv6 Lo=
cal/Remote addresses and SID for     This document=



       =
; 
SRv6 sub-TLV


 


_____________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_________


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuv=
ent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent=
 donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copie=
s sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le s=
ignaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi q=
ue les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alte=
ration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite s=
i ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

 


This message and its attachments may =
contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law=
;


they should not be distributed, used =
or copied without authorisation.


If you have received this email in er=
ror, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.<=
o:p>


As emails may be altered, Orange is n=
ot liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.<=
/o:p>


Thank you.


______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
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Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that.

 

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like= MPLS label.

 

Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https:= //tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3

 

If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is no= t SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better?

 

Thanks,

Cheng

 

 

From:<= /span> Ron Bonica [mailto:rb= onica@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura &= lt;jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bern= ier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.= org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /span>

 

Cheng,

&nbs= p;

In SRv6&#= 43;, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because:

-A= SID is either 16-or 32-bits long

-A= n IPv6 address is 128-bits long

-T= herefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IPv6 addr= ess to a SID

The bindi= ng SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in the CRH. Li= ke all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry.

&nbs= p;

There wil= l be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following information:

-A= n IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header)=

-A= list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH

         &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =      Ron

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.<= br>
If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture.

If yes, what=A1=AFs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.=

Best regards,
Cheng

=C0= =EE=B3=CA Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com

From: Ron Bonica<= rbonica@juniper.net>

To: Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli= 13@huawei.com>

Cc: SING Team<s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<d= aniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

 

Jeff,

 

After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ im= plementors, we decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv= 6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Sinc= e the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MP= LS label =3D CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:0= 9 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@j= uniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6= +. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

 

However, there is another way to get exactly the sam= e behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB en= try:

 

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID type: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also have the following route on= Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified de= stination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a bin= ding SID.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            Ron=

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

There=A1=AFs number of solutions on the market that = extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before,= Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We should see the impo= rtant part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the= details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.=

 

Since the EH insertion= related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don=A1=AFt think anyone= will still say we don=A1=AFt need binding SID.

Let=A1=AFs be honest, = Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is not se= cure to share internal info outside a trusted network domain.

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

+1<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

This is what we did= on our multi-cloud trials.

 <= /o:p>

Encap with Binding = SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=A1=AFt need to have some sort= of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

 <= /o:p>

Dan

 <= /o:p>

On= 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bou= nces@ietf.org on behalf of = s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com> wrote:

&n= bsp;

Hi Andrew,=

Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49,&nb= sp;Andrew Alston wrote:=
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: =

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________=  
spring mailing list 
spring@ietf..org=  
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring<= span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">&nbs= p; 

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

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charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cheng, I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appr= opriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tantsura Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <= daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS= label. Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 ba= sed. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? Thanks, Cheng From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Jeff Tantsura > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Cheng, In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because: * A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long * An IPv6 address is 128-bits long * Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IP= v6 address to a SID The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in th= e CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry. There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following informa= tion: * An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header) * A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) = > Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM To: Ron Bonica >; Jeff Tant= sura > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision. But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH. If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture. If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you. Best regards, Cheng ________________________________ =1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: Ron Bonica> To: Jeff Tantsura>;= Chengli (Cheng Li)> Cc: SING Team>;EXT - daniel.bernier>;SPRING WG List> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17 Jeff, After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that= it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in = the next version of the draft. In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, ins= ertion is not needed. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeff Tantsura > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Ron Bonica > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :) Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market that extensively use B= SID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need bindin= g SID. Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-= domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted n= etwork domain. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt n= eed to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BN7PR05MB56994D4335D5ECCC9FE591A8AE840BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Cheng,

&nbs= p;

I have no= problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appropriate, = because MPLS is not part of the solution.

&nbs= p;

Something= like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work.

&nbs= p;

 &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;           Ron

&nbs= p;

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From:<= /span> Chengli (Cheng Li) &l= t;chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jeffta= nt.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bern= ier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.= org>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">

 

Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that.

 

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like= MPLS label.

 

Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.= 1.3

 

If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is no= t SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better?

 

Thanks,

Cheng

 

 

From:<= /span> Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /span>

 

Cheng,

&nbs= p;

In SRv6&#= 43;, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because:

  • A SID is either 16-or 32-bits lo= ng
  • An IPv6 address is 128-bits long=
  • Therefore, it is impossible to c= opy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IPv6 address to a SID<= /li>

The bindi= ng SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in the CRH. Li= ke all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry.

&nbs= p;

There wil= l be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following information:

  • An IPv6 Destination Address (to = be used in the outer IPv6 header)
  • A list of SIDs (to be used in th= e CRH

         &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;             &= nbsp;    Ron

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.<= br>
If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture.

If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.=

Best regards,
Cheng

=1B$B= M{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com

From: Ron Bonica<= rbonica@juniper.net>

To: Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli= 13@huawei.com>

Cc: SING Team<s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<d= aniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

 

Jeff,

 

After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ im= plementors, we decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv= 6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Sinc= e the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MP= LS label =3D CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:0= 9 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@j= uniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6= +. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

 

However, there is another way to get exactly the sam= e behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB en= try:

 

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID type: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also have the following route on= Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified de= stination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a bin= ding SID.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            Ron=

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market= that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signalin= g.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before,= Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We should see the impo= rtant part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the= details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.=

 

Since the EH insertion= related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think = anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need binding SID.

Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be ho= nest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is = not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network domain.<= o:p>

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

+1<= /o:p>

 <= /o:p>

This is what we did= on our multi-cloud trials.

 <= /o:p>

Encap with Binding = SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need to have som= e sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

 <= /o:p>

Dan

 <= /o:p>

On 2= 019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <<= a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounc= es@ietf.org on behalf of = s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com> wrote:

&nbs= p;

Hi Andrew,
Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49,&nb= sp;Andrew Alston wrote:=
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: =

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________=  
spring mailing list 
spring@ietf..org=  
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring<= span lang=3D"EN-CA" style=3D"font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">&nbs= p; 

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

--_000_BN7PR05MB56994D4335D5ECCC9FE591A8AE840BN7PR05MB5699namp_-- From nobody Tue Sep 24 05:59:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F4C12008F; Tue, 24 Sep 2019 05:59:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: martin.vigoureux@nokia.com, spring@ietf.org, spring-chairs@ietf.org, bruno.decraene@orange.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.102.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <156932995837.15745.8139929374942596785.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 05:59:18 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] spring - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 12:59:19 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Bruno Decraene, a Chair of the spring working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Source Packet Routing in Networking Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Bruno Decraene Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 140 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: 6man mpls lsr idr pce People who must be present: Bruno Decraene Martin Vigoureux Rob Shakir Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Sep 24 06:07:53 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF93E12003E; Tue, 24 Sep 2019 06:07:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: martin.vigoureux@nokia.com, spring@ietf.org, spring-chairs@ietf.org, bruno.decraene@orange.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.102.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <156933047071.15700.8064658401943888856.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 06:07:50 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] spring - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:07:51 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Bruno Decraene, a Chair of the spring working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Source Packet Routing in Networking Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Bruno Decraene Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 140 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: 6man mpls lsr idr pce People who must be present: Bruno Decraene Martin Vigoureux Rob Shakir Resources Requested: Special Requests: If it's not possible to address all conflicts, chairs will try to schedule 6MAN related content in the first session and MPLS related content during the second session. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Sep 24 11:22:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A82151208FF; Tue, 24 Sep 2019 11:22:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: spring@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.102.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: spring@ietf.org Message-ID: <156934935460.15603.11867492604510639688@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 11:22:34 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-03.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:22:35 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. 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Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OzB07C-xhCAD for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 05:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x332.google.com (mail-wm1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F635120143 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 05:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x332.google.com with SMTP id r17so4129363wme.0 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 05:39:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=4rWbBl1Kvcr6nolB38rG2wlXHLvgczk7KxdgSiuF4bU=; b=oSu59kke2V37hSSPfi606pbt/gO77h5HXsjsDTiMuSluQFbrMlEdOgJEG8CRvZ7YMV iGlePsu0LicYBHdzMRWMQw5aYDJWnQlSZcYdZyEh10ZlJFJp/5vfHYnLJxj5U5Ye2SdJ 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APXvYqy2oFbY4TPeFW0CnmCWDuQevWxxdT0zVWh/07fXPxyg8zKjrhkjonaD0TJm3lst/MLRQKsZ5g== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:49d4:: with SMTP id w203mr7332745wma.132.1569415183923; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 05:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Appleton.fritz.box ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r65sm4038834wmr.9.2019.09.25.05.39.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Sep 2019 05:39:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Ron Bonica , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Jeff Tantsura Cc: SPRING WG List , SING Team , "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" References: From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 13:39:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------11A920D6820E9BC2DA605D01" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:39:51 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------11A920D6820E9BC2DA605D01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I agree. Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states, such a name is not a true refelction of the design. - Stewart On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Cheng, > > I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be > appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. > > Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. > > Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:*Chengli (Cheng Li) > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tantsura > > *Cc:* SING Team ; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ > > Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. > > Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like > MPLS label. > > Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 > > > If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not > SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? > > Thanks, > > Cheng > > *From:*Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >; Jeff Tantsura > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Cheng, > > In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because: > > * A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long > * An IPv6 address is 128-bits long > * Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an > IPv6 address to a SID > > The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found > in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an > SFIB entry. > > There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following > information: > > * An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header) > * A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH > >          Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > > *Sent:* Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica >; > Jeff Tantsura > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Hi Ron, > > Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision. > > But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address > only without any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you > mentioned in CRH. > > If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it > pollutes the architecture. > > If yes, what’s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? > > Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with > you. > > Best regards, > Cheng > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > æŽå‘ˆCheng Li > Email: chengli13@huawei.com > > *From: *Ron Bonica> > > *To: *Jeff Tantsura >;Chengli (Cheng > Li)> > > *Cc: *SING Team >;EXT - > daniel.bernier >;SPRING WG List > > > *Subject: *RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > *Time: *2019-09-22 04:37:17 > > Jeff, > > After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided > that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do > that in the next version of the draft. > > In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is > short, insertion is not needed. > > Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Jeff Tantsura > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >; Ron Bonica > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Hi Ron, > > Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label = CRH value :) > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > > It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given > customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one. > > However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on > the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type. > > Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: > > * SID: 123 > * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 > * SID type: prefix SID > > Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: > > 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH > > This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. > > Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring > *On Behalf Of* Jeff Tantsura > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; SPRING > WG List > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > There’s number of solutions on the market that extensively use > BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > > wrote: > > +1. > > As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening > SID list. > > We should see the important part of binding SID in > inter-domain routing,  since it hides the details of > intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important. > > Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 > NP draft, I don’t think anyone will still say we don’t need > binding SID. > > Let’s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in > inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info > outside a trusted network domain. > > Cheng > > *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of* > Bernier, Daniel > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM > *To:* SING Team > > *Cc:* 'SPRING WG List' > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > +1 > > This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. > > Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don’t > need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs > > Dan > > On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" > on > behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > Good to hear that reality experiment :) > > But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a > trusted network domain? > > Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? > > Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? > > Best regards, > Moonlight Thoughts > > > (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) > > On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston >  wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions > around deployments and running code - because one of the > things we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering > with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and another > implementation. > > So - the setup we used last night: > > 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open > internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 > 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering > between the networks in question.  Call these R1 -> R3 > > We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 > -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to > the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID for > S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a > mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) > > Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. > > What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to > share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one > network, out over an open path, and across a remote network. > Obviously this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being > dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something > we're seeing. > > Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can > then be signaled between the providers - work still going on > with regards to this for testing purposes. Just as a note - > there would be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or > topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would be > only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. > > I can say from our side - with various other providers - this > is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole > host of reasons. > > Thanks > > Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf..org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --------------11A920D6820E9BC2DA605D01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I agree.

Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states, such a name is not a true refelction of the design.

- Stewart

On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote:

Cheng,

 

I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution.

 

Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work.

 

                                                               Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？

 

Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that.

 

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS label.

 

Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3

 

If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better?

 

Thanks,

Cheng

 

 

From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

Cheng,

 

In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because:

  • A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long
  • An IPv6 address is 128-bits long
  • Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IPv6 address to a SID

The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry.

 

There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following information:

  • An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header)
  • A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH

                                                                 Ron

 

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only without any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.

If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollutes the architecture.

If yes, what’s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.

Best regards,
Cheng

æŽå‘ˆ Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com

From: Ron Bonica<rbonica@juniper.net>

To: Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli13@huawei.com>

Cc: SING Team<s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<daniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

 

Jeff,

 

After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

                                                                                                       Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label = CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

 

However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry:

 

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID type: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID.

 

                                                           Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

There’s number of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.

 

Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyone will still say we don’t need binding SID.

Let’s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network domain.

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

+1

 

This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials.

 

Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don’t need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

 

Dan

 

On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Hi Andrew,

Good to hear that reality experiment :)

But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: 

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 -> R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) 

Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviously this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're seeing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________ 
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spring@ietf..org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring  

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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[31.20.203.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b12sm984481edq.75.2019.09.25.05.43.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Sep 2019 05:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 14:43:12 +0200 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Ron Bonica , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Stewart Bryant Cc: SPRING WG List , SING Team , "=?utf-8?Q?EXT_-_daniel.bernier=40bell.ca?=" Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> X-Readdle-Message-ID: d00cbf3d-823b-41e3-8759-21e50058a7eb@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5d8b60e5_1a0dde32_2a6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:43:26 -0000 --5d8b60e5_1a0dde32_2a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Agree with Stuart. SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let=E2=80=99s not mix things. Cheers, Jeff On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant , wrote: > I agree. > > Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-s= r-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draf= t-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron= states, such a name is not a true refelction of the design. > - Stewart > On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Cheng, > > > > I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not b= e appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. > > > > Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > =46rom: Chengli (Cheng Li) > > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM > > To: Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tantsura > > Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier=40= bell.ca ; SPRING WG List > > Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D SR-MPLS over IPv6=EF=BC=9F > > > > Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. > > > > Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value lik= e MPLS label. > > > > Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with R=46C8402: https://tools.ietf= .org/html/rfc8402=23section-3.1.3 > > > > If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not S= Rv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better=3F > > > > Thanks, > > Cheng > > > > > > =46rom: Ron Bonica =5Bmailto:rbonica=40juniper.net=5D > > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM > > To: Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Jeff Tantsura > > Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier=40= bell.ca ; SPRING WG List > > Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > Cheng, > > > > In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture beca= use: > > > > =E2=80=A2 A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long > > =E2=80=A2 An IPv6 address is 128-bits long > > =E2=80=A2 Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 addres= s or an IPv6 address to a SID > > > > The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found= in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an S=46I= B entry. > > > > There will be a new S=46IB entry type that will contain the following= information: > > > > =E2=80=A2 An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 h= eader) > > =E2=80=A2 A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > =46rom: Chengli (Cheng Li) > > Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM > > To: Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tantsura > > Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier=40= bell.ca ; SPRING WG List > > Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.= > > > > But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address = only without any other semantics=3F Just like the other SIDs you mentione= d in CRH. > > > > If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it = pollutes the architecture. > > > > If yes, what=E2=80=99s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address=3F > > > > Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree wit= h you. > > > > Best regards, > > Cheng > > =E6=9D=8E=E5=91=88 Cheng Li > > Email: chengli13=40huawei.com > > =46rom: Ron Bonica > > To: Jeff Tantsura;Chengli (Cheng Li) > > Cc: SING Team;EXT - daniel.bernier;SPRING WG List > > Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing > > Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17 > > > > Jeff, > > > > After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decide= d that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do = that in the next version of the draft. > > > > In keeping with R=46C 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is sh= ort, insertion is not needed. > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > =46rom: Jeff Tantsura > > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM > > To: Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Ron Bonica > > Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier=40= bell.ca ; SPRING WG List > > Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > Thanks for your comments, exactly,=C2=A0BSID=C2=A0MPLS label =3D CRH = value :) > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica , = wrote: > > > Hi Jeff, > > > > > > It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given custom= er demand, I would not be averse to adding one. > > > > > > However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on t= he forwarding plane without adding a new SID type. > > > > > > Assume that on Node N, we have the following S=46IB entry: > > > > > > > > > =E2=80=A2 SID: 123 > > > =E2=80=A2 IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 > > > =E2=80=A2 SID type: prefix SID > > > > > > > > > Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: > > > > > > 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and = CRH > > > > > > This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. > > > > > > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > =46rom: spring On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsu= ra > > > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM > > > To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > > > Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernie= r=40bell.ca ; SPRING WG List > > > Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > > > There=E2=80=99s number of solutions on the market that extensively = use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jeff > > > > > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) wrote: > > > > +1. > > > > > > > > As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID= list. > > > > We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain r= outing, =C2=A0since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Pr= ivacy are always important. > > > > > > > > Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP = draft, I don=E2=80=99t think anyone will still say we don=E2=80=99t need = binding SID. > > > > Let=E2=80=99s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in= inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a = trusted network domain. > > > > > > > > Cheng > > > > > > > > > > > > =46rom: spring =5Bmailto:spring-bounces=40ietf.org=5D On Behalf O= f Bernier, Daniel > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM > > > > To: SING Team > > > > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > > > > Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > > > This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. > > > > > > > > Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=E2=80= =99t need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs > > > > > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, =22spring on behalf of SING Team=22 wrote:= > > > > > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > > > > > Good to hear that reality experiment :) > > > > > > > > But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trus= ted network domain=3F > > > > > > > > Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+=3F > > > > > > > > Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right=3F > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Moonlight Thoughts > > > > > > > > > > > > (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) > > > > > > > > On 09/19/2019 17:49,=C2=A0Andrew Alston=C2=A0wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around = deployments and running code - because one of the things we've been testi= ng is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementat= ion and another implementation. > > > > > > > > So - the setup we used last night: > > > > > > > > 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet.=C2= =A0 Call these S1 -> S6 > > > > 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering be= tween the networks in question.=C2=A0 Call these R1 -> R3 > > > > > > > > We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 ->= R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlyin= g addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for t= he SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to= R1 etc) > > > > > > > > Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful.= > > > > > > > > What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to sha= re the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out ove= r an open path, and across a remote network.=C2=A0 Obviously this relies = on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but= this isn't something we're seeing. > > > > > > > > Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can the= n be signaled between the providers - work still going on with regards to= this for testing purposes.=C2=A0 Just as a note - there would be no requ= irement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with = BGP - the requirement would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary= for the steering. > > > > > > > > I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is = something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reason= s. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > > > spring mailing list > > > > spring=40ietf..org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > > > spring mailing list > > > > spring=40ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > spring mailing list > > spring=40ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --5d8b60e5_1a0dde32_2a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Agree with Stuart.
SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let=E2=80=99s n= ot mix things. &=23160;

Cheers,
Jeff
On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Ste= wart Bryant <stewart.bryant=40gmail.com>, wrote:

I agree.

Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-= over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-= ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron s= tates, such a name is not a true refelction of the design.

- Stewart

On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote:=
<=21--=5Bif =21mso=5D><=21=5Bendif=5D--> <=21--=5Bif gte mso 9=5D> <=21=5Bendif=5D--><=21--=5Bif gte mso 9=5D> <=21=5Bendif=5D-->

Cheng,

&=23160;

I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be a= ppropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution.

&=23160;

Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work.

=

&=23160;

&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160; Ron

&=23160;

&=23160;

Juniper Business Use Only

=46rom: Che= ngli (Cheng Li) <chengli13=40huawei.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net>; Jeff Tan= tsura <jefftant.ietf=40gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com>= ;; EXT - daniel.bernier=40bell.ca <da= niel.bernier=40bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring=40ietf.org&= gt;
Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D SR-MPLS over IPv6=EF=BC=9F

&=23160;

Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sor= ry for that.

&=23160;

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/3= 2 bit value like MPLS label.

&=23160;

Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with R=46C8402: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402=23section-3.1.3

&=23160;

If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, si= nce it is not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better=3F=

&=23160;

Thanks,

Cheng

&=23160;

&=23160;

=46rom: Ron= Bonica =5Bmailto:rbonica=40juniper.net=5D
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13=40huawei.com>; Jeff = Tantsura <jefftant.ietf=40gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com>;= EXT - daniel.bernier=40bell.ca <daniel.bernier=40bell.ca<= /a>>; SPRING WG List <spring=40ietf.org>
Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing

&=23160;

Cheng,

&=23160;

In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because= :

  • A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long
  • An IPv6 address is 128-bits long
  • Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 ad= dress or an IPv6 address to a SID

The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in= the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an S=46IB e= ntry.

&=23160;

There will be a new S=46IB entry type that will contain the following in= formation:

  • An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IP= v6 header)
  • A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH

&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160; &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;Ron

&=23160;

&=23160;

&=23160;

&=23160;

Juniper Business Use Only

=46rom: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli1= 3=40huawei.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net>; Jeff Tantsura &= lt;jefftant.ietf=40gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com>;= EXT - daniel.bernier=40bell.ca <daniel.bernier=40bell.ca<= /a>>; SPRING WG List <spring=40ietf.org>
Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing

&=23160;

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only= without any other semantics=3F Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in= CRH.

If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it poll= utes the architecture.

If yes, what=E2=80=99s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address=3F

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with yo= u.

Best regards,
Cheng

=E6=9D=8E=E5=91=88 Cheng Li
Email: chengli13=40huawei.c= om

=46rom: Ron = Bonica<rbonica=40juniper.net>=

To: Jeff Tan= tsura<jefftant.ietf=40gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli13=40huawei.com<= /span>>

Cc: SING Tea= m<s.i.n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<daniel.bernier=40= bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<spring=40= ietf.org>

Subject: RE: = =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09= -22 04:37:17

&=23160;

Jeff,

&=23160;

After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ = implementors, we decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to= SRv6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft.

&=23160;

In keeping with R=46C 8200, it will prepend on= ly. Since the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

&=23160;

&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160; Ron

&=23160;

&=23160;

&=23160;

Juniper Business Use Only

=46rom: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant= .ietf=40gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13=40huawei.com>; Ron B= onica <rbonica=40juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com>;= EXT - daniel.bernier=40bell.ca <daniel.bernier=40bell.ca<= /a>>; SPRING WG List <spring=40ietf.org>
Subject: RE: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing

&=23160;

Hi Ron,

&=23160;

Thanks for your comments, exactly,&=23160;BSID= &=23160;MPLS label =3D CRH value :)

&=23160;

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, = 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper.net>, wrot= e:

Hi Jeff,

&=23160;

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID t= o SRv6+. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

&=23160;

However, there is another way to get exactly t= he same behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

&=23160;

Assume that on Node N, we have the following S= =46IB entry:

&=23160;

  • SID: 123
  • IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1
  • SID type: prefix SID

&=23160;

Now assume that was also have the following ro= ute on Node N:

&=23160;

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified = destination address and CRH

&=23160;

This gives you the same forwarding behavior as= a binding SID.

&=23160;

&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=2316= 0;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160= ;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;= &=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&= =23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23= 160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=231= 60;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160;&=23160; Ron

&=23160;

&=23160;

&=23160;

Juniper Business Use Only

=46rom: spring <spring-bounces=40= ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13=40huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com>;= EXT - daniel.bernier=40bell.ca <daniel.bernier=40bell.ca<= /a>>; SPRING WG List <spring=40ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing

&=23160;

There=E2=80=99s number of solutions on the mar= ket that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer sig= naling.

&=23160;

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13=40huawei.co= m> wrote:

+1.

&=23160;=

As I men= tioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We shoul= d see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, &=23160;= since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are alwa= ys important.

&=23160;=

Since th= e EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don=E2=80= =99t think anyone will still say we don=E2=80=99t need binding SID.

Let=E2=80= =99s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain rou= ting. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network d= omain.

&=23160;=

Cheng

&=23160;=

&=23160;=

=46rom: spring =5Bmailto:spring-bo= unces=40ietf.org=5D On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com><= br /> Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring=40ietf.org>
Subject: Re: =5Bspring=5D A note on CRH and on going testing

&=23160;

+1=

&=23160;<= /span>

This is w= hat we did on our multi-cloud trials.

&=23160;<= /span>

Encap wit= h Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=E2=80=99t need to hav= e some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

&=23160;<= /span>

Dan

&=23160;<= /span>

On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, =22spring on beh= alf of SING Team=22 <spring-bounces=40ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810=40gmail.com> wrote:

&=23160;

Hi Andrew,
Good to hear that reality experiment :)

But is it secure to share internal SID-IP= mappings outside a trusted network domain=3F

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID = of SRv6, in SRv6+=3F

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, r= ight=3F

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

 On 09/19/2019 17:49,&=23160;= Andrew Alston&=23160;wrote:<= br /> Hi Guys,&=23160;

I thought this may be of interest in ligh= t of discussions around deployments and running code - because one of the= things we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on b= oth our DPDK implementation and another implementation.&=23160;
So - the setup we used last night:&=23160= ;

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked = to the open internet.&=23160; Call these S1 -> S6&=23160;
= 3 systems in a lab on the other side of t= he world - no peering between the networks in question.&=23160; Call thes= e R1 -> R3&=23160;

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered= S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappi= ngs from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for= the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had= a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc)&=23160;

Then we sent some packets - and the test = was entirely successful. &=23160;&=23160;

What this effectively means is that if tw= o providers agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer acr= oss one network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.&=231= 60; Obviously this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by i= ntermediate providers, but this isn't something we're seeing.&=23160;

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft= - and the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still = going on with regards to this for testing purposes.&=23160; Just as a not= e - there would be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topolo= gies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would be only to share th= e relevant SID's necessary for the steering.&=23160;

I can say from our side - with various ot= her providers - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - fo= r a whole host of reasons.&=23160;

Thanks&=23160;

Andrew&=23160;


=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F&=23160;
spring mailing list&=23160;
<= /span> spring=40ietf..org&=23160;=
https://www.ietf.org/mailm= an/listinfo/Spring&=23160;&=2316= 0;

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cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_4BB0E927025D44979DD10307FCBAFB97bellca_-- From nobody Wed Sep 25 12:50:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D291200CD for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:50:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GaiWzVOAr8_1 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 918AC12088F for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46dpZ13X99zXqL8; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:50:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1569441017; bh=McjRtLqXri6efBRkHxe1hR7nmmRdvuxLi5X1wbFPa1o=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=dlNiRA8o8lkR760b6e5xGPBJ5B77eoWHy8PwJ9nZH+POSHGu4Db8mvbWIfIx2jeJN fSvYE2kPc8UGICEr1HLy1sHUbgEZ7PWG9u9V6Egz4ja60cZn6gaL4C7yAFMagsMlWV 3QA4qd7tyHm77+tLHIricjEF0So1Khoie4CnP+tA= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.7.244] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46dpZ0669vzXqL4; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 12:50:16 -0700 (PDT) To: "Bernier, Daniel" Cc: SPRING WG List References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 15:50:14 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 19:50:21 -0000 SR is Stateless in the sense of not having per-path state. It is not stateless in a general sense, since otherwise MPLS-SR would not be SR (it needs label state). So I think we are reading 8402 differently. We can let the marketing folks fight it out in the marketplace. Yours, Joel On 9/25/2019 3:41 PM, Bernier, Daniel wrote: > Hi Ron, > > Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key > characteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness. > > As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate > node to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are > domain-wide defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID). > > Cheers, > > Dan B > > On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" > wrote: > > Agree with Stuart. > > SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let’s not mix things. > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant > , wrote: > > I agree. > > Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with > draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The > design decribed in draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 > and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states, such a name is not a true > refelction of the design. > > - Stewart > > On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Cheng, > > I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may > not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. > > Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. > >                                                                Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica > ; Jeff Tantsura > > *Cc:* SING Team > ; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > ; SPRING > WG List > *Subject:* RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ > > Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. > > Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit > value like MPLS label. > > Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 > > > If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is > not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? > > Thanks, > > Cheng > > *From:* Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >; Jeff Tantsura > > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; SPRING > WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Cheng, > > In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture > because: > > -A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long > > -An IPv6 address is 128-bits long > > -Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or > an IPv6 address to a SID > > The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, > found in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will > identify an SFIB entry. > > There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the > following information: > > -An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header) > > -A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH > > >          Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > > *Sent:* Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica >; Jeff Tantsura > > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; SPRING > WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Hi Ron, > > Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next > revision. > > But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 > address only without any other semantics? Just like the other > SIDs you mentioned in CRH. > > If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH > since it pollutes the architecture. > > If yes, what’s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? > > Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally > agree with you. > > Best regards, > Cheng > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > æŽå‘ˆCheng Li > Email: chengli13@huawei.com > > *From:* Ron Bonica> > > *To:* Jeff Tantsura >;Chengli (Cheng > Li)> > > *Cc:* SING Team >;EXT - > daniel.bernier >;SPRING WG List > > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > *Time:* 2019-09-22 04:37:17 > > Jeff, > > After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we > decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. > So, we will do that in the next version of the draft. > > In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is > short, insertion is not needed. > >                                                                                                        Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Jeff Tantsura > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >; Ron Bonica > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; SPRING > WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Hi Ron, > > Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label = CRH value :) > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > > It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given > customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one. > > However, there is another way to get exactly the same > behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type. > > Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: > > ·SID: 123 > > ·IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 > > ·SID type: prefix SID > > Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: > > 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination > address and CRH > > This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. > >                                                            Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring > *On Behalf Of* Jeff Tantsura > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; > SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > There’s number of solutions on the market that extensively > use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > > wrote: > > +1. > > As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for > shortening SID list. > > We should see the important part of binding SID in > inter-domain routing,  since it hides the details of > intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important. > > Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from > SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyone will still say we > don’t need binding SID. > > Let’s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful > in inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share > internal info outside a trusted network domain. > > Cheng > > *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of* Bernier, Daniel > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM > *To:* SING Team > > *Cc:* 'SPRING WG List' > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > +1 > > This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. > > Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I > don’t need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment > of PSSIs > > Dan > > On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" > on behalf of > s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > Good to hear that reality experiment :) > > But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings > outside a trusted network domain? > > Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? > > Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? > > Best regards, > Moonlight Thoughts > > > (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) > > On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston >  wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I thought this may be of interest in light of > discussions around deployments and running code - > because one of the things we've been testing is > inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK > implementation and another implementation. > > So - the setup we used last night: > > 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open > internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 > 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no > peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 > -> R3 > > We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 > -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from the > CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping > for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID > corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID > corresponding to R1 etc) > > Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely > successful. > > What this effectively means is that if two providers > agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to > steer across one network, out over an open path, and > across a remote network.  Obviously this relies on the > fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate > providers, but this isn't something we're seeing. > > Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the > SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work > still going on with regards to this for testing > purposes.  Just as a note - there would be no > requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies > when doing this with BGP - the requirement would be only > to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. > > I can say from our side - with various other providers - > this is something that we see *immense* use case for - > for a whole host of reasons. > > Thanks > > Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf..org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > */External Email:/*/Please use caution when opening links and > attachments / /*/Courriel externe:/*/Soyez prudent avec les liens et > documents joints / > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > From nobody Wed Sep 25 13:06:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FD81201E3 for ; 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Wed, 25 Sep 2019 16:06:51 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([::1]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Wed, 25 Sep 2019 16:06:51 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: "Joel M. Halpern" CC: SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0VYVF1SZTogW3NwcmluZ10gU1ItTVBMUyBvdmVyIElQdjbvvJ8=?= Thread-Index: AQHVc55RAFJqRzAR30W/UMCZDHCkwac8mWYAgAAxrgCAAEWiAP//wKk8 Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:06:51 +0000 Message-ID: <1569442011175.47986@bell.ca> References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 20:06:57 -0000 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 0F4/T3SlCcKot4pp7DBPrCNe597yD4cfsMo9tvTsvg3bGNGwgAUYzE3DOWa/6osBl15ozA+lYQ5zn5APFzweXA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR05MB6289 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-25_10:2019-09-25,2019-09-25 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909250171 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?iso-2022-jp?b?U1ItTVBMUyBvdmVyIElQdjYbJEIhKRsoQg==?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2019 21:25:26 -0000 --_000_BN7PR05MB5699D96501C7F626CFAF300BAE870BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Daniel, I=1B$B!G=1B(Bm not sure that I agree. The PSSI doesn=1B$B!G=1B(Bt represent= per-path information. It represents an instruction to be executed at a seg= ment endpoint. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Bernier, Daniel Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:41 PM To: Jeff Tantsura ; Ron Bonica ; Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Stewart Bryant Cc: SPRING WG List ; SING Team Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key characteris= tic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness. As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate node = to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are domain-wide= defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID). Cheers, Dan B On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" > wrote: Agree with Stuart. SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs not mix things. Cheers, Jeff On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant >, wrote: I agree. Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-ov= er-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf= -mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states,= such a name is not a true refelction of the design. - Stewart On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: Cheng, I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appr= opriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tant= sura Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; SPRING WG List Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS= label. Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 ba= sed. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? Thanks, Cheng From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Jeff Tantsura > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Cheng, In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because: - A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long - An IPv6 address is 128-bits long - Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an= IPv6 address to a SID The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in th= e CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry. There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following informa= tion: - An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header) - A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) = > Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM To: Ron Bonica >; Jeff Tant= sura > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision. But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH. If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture. If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you. Best regards, Cheng ________________________________ =1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: Ron Bonica> To: Jeff Tantsura>;= Chengli (Cheng Li)> Cc: SING Team>;EXT - daniel.bernier>;SPRING WG List> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17 Jeff, After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that= it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in = the next version of the draft. In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, ins= ertion is not needed. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeff Tantsura > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Ron Bonica > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :) Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market that extensively use B= SID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need bindin= g SID. Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-= domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted n= etwork domain. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt n= eed to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring ________________________________ External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Cou= rriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints --_000_BN7PR05MB5699D96501C7F626CFAF300BAE870BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Daniel,

&nbs= p;

I=1B$B!G= =1B(Bm not sure that I agree. The PSSI doesn=1B$B!G=1B(Bt represent per-pat= h information. It represents an instruction to be executed at a segment end= point.

&nbs= p;

 &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;  Ron

&nbs= p;

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From:<= /span> Bernier, Daniel <d= aniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:41 PM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Ron Bonica <rb= onica@juniper.net>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Ste= wart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.te= am.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B<= span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">

 

Hi Ron,

 

Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key cha= racteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness.

 

As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an interm= ediate node to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are= domain-wide defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID).

 

Cheers,

 

Dan B

 

On 2= 019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:<= /p>

 

Agre= e with Stuart.

SRin= UDP is a well defined solution, let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs not mix things.  

 

Chee= rs,

Jeff=

On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant <= ;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&g= t;, wrote:

I agree.

Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-ov= er-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf= -mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states,= such a name is not a true refelction of the design.

- Stewart

On 2= 4/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote:

Cheng,

 

I have no problem with changing the name. = SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the s= olution.

 

Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compr= essed-6 might work.

 

       =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =       Ron

 

 =

Juniper Business= Use Only

From: Chengli (C= heng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com><= /a>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">

&nbs= p;

Oh, I misunderstood the BSID= in CRH in last email, sorry for that.

 

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 = address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS label.

 

Therefore, IMHO, it may not = comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3

&nbs= p;

If possible, I suggest to ch= ange the name of SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 based. Something like SR-M= PLS over IPv6 maybe better?

 

Thanks,

Cheng

 

 

From: Ron Bonica= [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

&nbs= p;

Cheng,

 

In SRv6+, it would be very difficult t= o pollute the architecture because:<= /span>

-=    &n= bsp;    A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long

-=    &n= bsp;    An IPv6 address is 128-bits long

-=    &n= bsp;    Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address = or an IPv6 address to a SID

The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit top= ological instruction, found in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, = it will identify an SFIB entry.

 

There will be a new SFIB entry type that w= ill contain the following information:

-=    &n= bsp;    An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 hea= der)

-=    &n= bsp;    A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH

       = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            &nbs= p;       Ron=

 

 

 

 =

Juniper Business= Use Only

F= rom: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /span>

&nbs= p;

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.<= br>
If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture.

If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.=

Best regards,
Cheng

=1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li
Email: = chengli13@huawei.com=

Fro= m: Ron Bonica<rbonica@juniper.net>

Cc:= SING Team<s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<daniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<= spring@ietf.org>

Sub= ject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Tim= e: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

 =

Jeff= ,

&nbs= p;

Afte= r an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that= it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that= in the next version of the draft.

&nbs= p;

In k= eeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, inserti= on is not needed.

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;  Ron

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

Juniper Business= Use Only

F= rom: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /span>

&nbs= p;

Hi R= on,

&nbs= p;

Than= ks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :)

&nbs= p;

Chee= rs,

Jeff=

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, wrote:

Hi J= eff,

&nbs= p;

It w= ould be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one.

&nbs= p;

Howe= ver, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwardin= g plane without adding a new SID type.

&nbs= p;

Assu= me that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry:

&nbs= p;

·        SID: 123

·        IPv6 address: 2001:db8:= :1

·        SID type: prefix SID

&nbs= p;

Now = assume that was also have the following route on Node N:<= /p>

&nbs= p;

2001= :db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH

&nbs= p;

This= gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID.=

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;        Ron

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

Juniper Business= Use Only

F= rom: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /span>

&nbs= p;

Ther= e=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID = for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling.

&nbs= p;

Rega= rds,

Jeff=


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shor= tening SID list.

We should see the important part of binding SID in inte= r-domain routing,  since it hides the details of intra-domain. Securit= y and Privacy are always important.<= /span>

 

Since the EH insertion related text will be removed fro= m SRv6 NP draft, I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B= !G=1B(Bt need binding SID.

Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is v= ery useful in inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info= outside a trusted network domain.

 

Cheng

 

 

F= rom: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /span>

&nbs= p;

+1=

 =

This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials.

 =

Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping= + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment = of PSSIs

 =

Dan

 =

On = 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf o= f s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

&nb= sp;

Hi Andrew,<= br>
Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49,&nb= sp;Andrew Alston = ;wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: =

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________=  
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spring@ietf..org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring  

____= ___________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /span>

 = 

______________________=
_________________________
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spring@ietf.org
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External Email:<= em> Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Courriel externe:=

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from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D78120144 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 05:29:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KBCexXmSJM5x for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 05:29:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ESA4-Dor.bell.ca (esa4-dor.bell.ca [204.101.223.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E479212013F for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 05:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dc5cmz-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX03-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.121.232]) by esa04corp-dor.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 26 Sep 2019 08:29:25 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX03-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120d::8eb6:120d) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 08:29:24 -0400 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([::1]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::39a2:98d1:477c:3365%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 08:29:24 -0400 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: Ron Bonica , "Joel M. Halpern" CC: SPRING WG List Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W3NwcmluZ10gU1ItTVBMUyBvdmVyIElQdjbvvJ8=?= Thread-Index: AQHVc+rCe5Bzr3kH6kmVaLHf71Ih+Kc9AJiL Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 12:29:24 +0000 Message-ID: <1569500963894.83328@bell.ca> References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca>, <1569442011175.47986@bell.ca>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 12:29:30 -0000 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score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x6iq_De-9Yn3 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 05:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492B312083D for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 05:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46fF4Q1V1Nzrn4D; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 05:44:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1569501878; bh=c1AHYhe/a9xKQuMN1SYGqUfdczDZ1lLUOAtGvcr4cus=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=OZMpteoCFARJAOCqWx6MQu3Sz5a2KvRqZMfJH5rimSToCy7UkDoRiTbO5ipoA9LK7 a42EakH16p0/T7at8cNTd/Rd+uYSJ+MqHYZcZVGjT0xjbs05j/hRvxwBDY7vyKxQwA 4a+vLRdta7Bl/n4H/EiU8Nge4LmIBXbQFGuiIcYQ= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [172.20.7.244] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46fF4P2DPHzrn4C; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 05:44:36 -0700 (PDT) To: "Bernier, Daniel" Cc: SPRING WG List References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> <1569442011175.47986@bell.ca> <1569500963894.83328@bell.ca> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <914b8a5d-939b-c469-744d-03815fd9e560@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 08:44:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1569500963894.83328@bell.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 12:44:41 -0000 I presume there are some aspects of this question that I am not understanding. The basic answer is that if the topology directions (CRH, or for that matter SRH) direct the packet to SE1 then SE1 does its job with the packet. If SE can do multiple jobs, then it probably has multiple IP addresses for those different jobs. If SE1 needs metadata to do its job (a not unreasonable requirement) then I suggest using the IETF standardized mechanism, NSH. Yours, Joel On 9/26/2019 8:29 AM, Bernier, Daniel wrote: > Ron, > > Say I have the following topology (augmenting on Robert's use case) with x Number of VRFs on PE1 or PE2 > > PE1 -- P1 -- P2 -- P3 -- PE2 > | | | > SE1 SE2 SE3 > > For a single path program, when a packet sourced in a VPN on PE1 needs to talk to a destination at PE2 while traversing SE1 and SE3 > > - you need a PPSI for PE2 to know what to do when packet arrives at PE2 > - you need a PSSI for SE1 that gets swapped for a PSSI for SE3 > - You also need the opposite too make it a bidirectional. > > How does SE1 or SE3 know if and what PSSI to apply ? On one direction it adds a PSSI for SE3, on the return it does not. > What happens if there is another flow between different source and destination VPNs on PE1 and PE2 and need now to go through SE1, SE2, SE3 ? > > From what I gather, SE1, SE2, SE3 will need to have a state table to figure out what to apply based on source/dest PPSIs plus + the FIB/SFIB mapping. > > Cheers, > > Dan > > ________________________________________ > From: Ron Bonica > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 5:46 PM > To: Bernier, Daniel; Joel M. Halpern > Cc: SPRING WG List > Subject: [EXT]RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ > > Daniel, > > In you message, do you really mean PPSIs? Or when you say PPSI, are you really referring to topological instructions? > > Ron > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -----Original Message----- > From: spring On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 4:07 PM > To: Joel M. Halpern > Cc: SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ > > Ah but Joel, > > As was debated over the mailing list, if I have multiple paths (i.e. unidirectional PPSIs) that go across different PSSIs on intermediate nodes each of these intermediate nodes needs to figure out which PSSI to apply before sending to the node next in the forwarding path. > > And since these PSSIs are not all carried from source, this requires state. > > ________________________________________ > From: Joel M. Halpern > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:50 PM > To: Bernier, Daniel > Cc: SPRING WG List > Subject: [EXT]Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ > > SR is Stateless in the sense of not having per-path state. It is not stateless in a general sense, since otherwise MPLS-SR would not be SR (it needs label state). So I think we are reading 8402 differently. > > We can let the marketing folks fight it out in the marketplace. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 9/25/2019 3:41 PM, Bernier, Daniel wrote: >> Hi Ron, >> >> Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key >> characteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness. >> >> As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate >> node to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are >> domain-wide defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dan B >> >> On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" > > wrote: >> >> Agree with Stuart. >> >> SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let’s not mix things. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jeff >> >> On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant >> , wrote: >> >> I agree. >> >> Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with >> draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The >> design decribed in draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 >> and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states, such a name is not a true >> refelction of the design. >> >> - Stewart >> >> On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: >> >> Cheng, >> >> I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may >> not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. >> >> Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. >> >> >> Ron >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >> >> *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM >> *To:* Ron Bonica >> ; Jeff Tantsura >> >> *Cc:* SING Team >> ; EXT - >> daniel.bernier@bell.ca >> ; SPRING >> WG List >> *Subject:* RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ >> >> Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. >> >> Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit >> value like MPLS label. >> >> Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402*section-3.1.3__;Iw!8WoA6RjC81c!RWveUAxArVXDm5sHbHNujZusNPIClQSSBL5x2iGIxptKTovGi8h8S5bZxBkXNLjq$ >> >> > n-3.1.3__;Iw!8WoA6RjC81c!WoPYW9IpnDYjcdhli0b80_-KyrOIBYFAZfip_NxPLB1-B >> t7oHjt8uGU68K49j2yk$> >> >> If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is >> not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Cheng >> >> *From:* Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] >> *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM >> *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > >; Jeff Tantsura >> > >> *Cc:* SING Team > >; EXT - >> daniel.bernier@bell.ca >> >; SPRING >> WG List > >> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >> Cheng, >> >> In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture >> because: >> >> -A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long >> >> -An IPv6 address is 128-bits long >> >> -Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or >> an IPv6 address to a SID >> >> The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, >> found in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will >> identify an SFIB entry. >> >> There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the >> following information: >> >> -An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 >> header) >> >> -A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH >> >> >> Ron >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > > >> *Sent:* Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM >> *To:* Ron Bonica > >; Jeff Tantsura >> > >> *Cc:* SING Team > >; EXT - >> daniel.bernier@bell.ca >> >; SPRING >> WG List > >> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >> Hi Ron, >> >> Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next >> revision. >> >> But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 >> address only without any other semantics? Just like the other >> SIDs you mentioned in CRH. >> >> If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH >> since it pollutes the architecture. >> >> If yes, what’s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? >> >> Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally >> agree with you. >> >> Best regards, >> Cheng >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> æŽå‘ˆCheng Li >> Email: chengli13@huawei.com >> >> *From:* Ron Bonica> > >> >> *To:* Jeff Tantsura> >;Chengli (Cheng >> Li)> >> >> *Cc:* SING Team> >;EXT - >> daniel.bernier> >;SPRING WG List> > >> >> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >> *Time:* 2019-09-22 04:37:17 >> >> Jeff, >> >> After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we >> decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. >> So, we will do that in the next version of the draft. >> >> In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is >> short, insertion is not needed. >> >> >> Ron >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> *From:* Jeff Tantsura > > >> *Sent:* Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM >> *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > >; Ron Bonica > > >> *Cc:* SING Team > >; EXT - >> daniel.bernier@bell.ca >> >; SPRING >> WG List > >> *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >> Hi Ron, >> >> Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label = CRH value >> :) >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jeff >> >> On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica > >, wrote: >> >> Hi Jeff, >> >> It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given >> customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one. >> >> However, there is another way to get exactly the same >> behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type. >> >> Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: >> >> ·SID: 123 >> >> ·IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 >> >> ·SID type: prefix SID >> >> Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: >> >> 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination >> address and CRH >> >> This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. >> >> >> Ron >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> *From:* spring > > *On Behalf Of* Jeff Tantsura >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM >> *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > > >> *Cc:* SING Team > >; EXT - >> daniel.bernier@bell.ca >> >; >> SPRING WG List > >> *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >> There’s number of solutions on the market that extensively >> use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. >> >> Regards, >> >> Jeff >> >> >> On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) >> > wrote: >> >> +1. >> >> As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for >> shortening SID list. >> >> We should see the important part of binding SID in >> inter-domain routing, since it hides the details of >> intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important. >> >> Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from >> SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyone will still say we >> don’t need binding SID. >> >> Let’s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful >> in inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share >> internal info outside a trusted network domain. >> >> Cheng >> >> *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On >> Behalf Of* Bernier, Daniel >> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM >> *To:* SING Team > > >> *Cc:* 'SPRING WG List' > > >> *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going >> testing >> >> +1 >> >> This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. >> >> Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I >> don’t need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment >> of PSSIs >> >> Dan >> >> On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" >> > on behalf of >> s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com >> > wrote: >> >> Hi Andrew, >> >> Good to hear that reality experiment :) >> >> But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings >> outside a trusted network domain? >> >> Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? >> >> Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? >> >> Best regards, >> Moonlight Thoughts >> >> >> (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) >> >> On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston >>  wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> I thought this may be of interest in light of >> discussions around deployments and running code - >> because one of the things we've been testing is >> inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK >> implementation and another implementation. >> >> So - the setup we used last night: >> >> 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open >> internet. Call these S1 -> S6 >> 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no >> peering between the networks in question. Call these R1 >> -> R3 >> >> We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 >> -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from the >> CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping >> for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID >> corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID >> corresponding to R1 etc) >> >> Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely >> successful. >> >> What this effectively means is that if two providers >> agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to >> steer across one network, out over an open path, and >> across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the >> fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate >> providers, but this isn't something we're seeing. >> >> Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the >> SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work >> still going on with regards to this for testing >> purposes. Just as a note - there would be no >> requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies >> when doing this with BGP - the requirement would be only >> to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. >> >> I can say from our side - with various other providers - >> this is something that we see *immense* use case for - >> for a whole host of reasons. >> >> Thanks >> >> Andrew >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf..org >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring__;!8WoA6RjC81c!RWveUAxArVXDm5sHbHNujZusNPIClQSSBL5x2iGIxptKTovGi8h8S5bZxDonQAID$ >> >> > ng__;!8WoA6RjC81c!U4_s7somKP_KyQ3viBMIcXpk_pTMYlY11nTHMB2b-JTdTLKi9mnr >> F1wu_DoXwIdf$> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!8WoA6RjC81c!RWveUAxArVXDm5sHbHNujZusNPIClQSSBL5x2iGIxptKTovGi8h8S5bZxBSWvl_l$ >> >> > ng__;!8WoA6RjC81c!U4_s7somKP_KyQ3viBMIcXpk_pTMYlY11nTHMB2b-JTdTLKi9mnr >> F1wu_Ll7ej5P$> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> spring mailing list >> >> spring@ietf.org >> >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri >> ng__;!8WoA6RjC81c!RWveUAxArVXDm5sHbHNujZusNPIClQSSBL5x2iGIxptKTovGi8h8 >> S5bZxBSWvl_l$ >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> >> */External Email:/*/Please use caution when opening links and >> attachments / /*/Courriel externe:/*/Soyez prudent avec les liens et >> documents joints / >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri >> ng__;!8WoA6RjC81c!RWveUAxArVXDm5sHbHNujZusNPIClQSSBL5x2iGIxptKTovGi8h8 >> S5bZxBSWvl_l$ >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents jointsA _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!8WoA6RjC81c!RWveUAxArVXDm5sHbHNujZusNPIClQSSBL5x2iGIxptKTovGi8h8S5bZxBSWvl_l$ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints > From nobody Thu Sep 26 07:06:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E5BB120043 for ; 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Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Appleton.fritz.box ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y186sm6927039wmb.41.2019.09.26.07.06.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:06:11 -0700 (PDT) To: spring@ietf.org References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <72130776-7a98-114f-98cc-5776ce97c096@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:06:09 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:06:18 -0000 The thing that pushes the original SR design into statefulness is binding SIDs which require state to be pre-positioned in the network. - Stewart On 25/09/2019 20:50, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > SR is Stateless in the sense of not having per-path state.  It is not > stateless in a general sense, since otherwise MPLS-SR would not be SR > (it needs label state).  So I think we are reading 8402 differently. > > We can let the marketing folks fight it out in the marketplace. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 9/25/2019 3:41 PM, Bernier, Daniel wrote: >> Hi Ron, >> >> Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key >> characteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness. >> >> As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate >> node to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are >> domain-wide defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending >> short-SID). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dan B >> >> On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" > > wrote: >> >> Agree with Stuart. >> >> SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let’s not mix things. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Jeff >> >> On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant >> , wrote: >> >>     I agree. >> >>     Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with >>     draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The >>     design decribed in draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 >>     and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states, such a name is not a true >>     refelction of the design. >> >>     - Stewart >> >>     On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: >> >>         Cheng, >> >>         I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may >>         not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. >> >>         Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. >> >> Ron >> >>         Juniper Business Use Only >> >>         *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >>         >>         *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM >>         *To:* Ron Bonica >>         ; Jeff Tantsura >>         >>         *Cc:* SING Team >>         ; EXT - >>         daniel.bernier@bell.ca >>         ; SPRING >>         WG List >>         *Subject:* RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ >> >>         Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for >> that. >> >>         Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit >>         value like MPLS label. >> >>         Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: >>         https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 >> >> >>         If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is >>         not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? >> >>         Thanks, >> >>         Cheng >> >>         *From:* Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] >>         *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM >>         *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >         >; Jeff Tantsura >>         > >>         *Cc:* SING Team >         >; EXT - >>         daniel.bernier@bell.ca >>         >; SPRING >>         WG List > >>         *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >>         Cheng, >> >>         In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture >>         because: >> >>         -A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long >> >>         -An IPv6 address is 128-bits long >> >>         -Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or >>         an IPv6 address to a SID >> >>         The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, >>         found in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will >>         identify an SFIB entry. >> >>         There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the >>         following information: >> >>         -An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 >> header) >> >>         -A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH >> >>                   Ron >> >>         Juniper Business Use Only >> >>         *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >         > >>         *Sent:* Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM >>         *To:* Ron Bonica >         >; Jeff Tantsura >>         > >>         *Cc:* SING Team >         >; EXT - >>         daniel.bernier@bell.ca >>         >; SPRING >>         WG List > >>         *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >>         Hi Ron, >> >>         Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next >>         revision. >> >>         But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 >>         address only without any other semantics? Just like the other >>         SIDs you mentioned in CRH. >> >>         If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH >>         since it pollutes the architecture. >> >>         If yes, what’s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? >> >>         Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally >>         agree with you. >> >>         Best regards, >>         Cheng >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>         æŽå‘ˆCheng Li >>         Email: chengli13@huawei.com >> >>         *From:* Ron Bonica> > >> >>         *To:* Jeff Tantsura>         >;Chengli (Cheng >>         Li)> >> >>         *Cc:* SING Team>         >;EXT - >>         daniel.bernier>         >;SPRING WG List>         > >> >>         *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >>         *Time:* 2019-09-22 04:37:17 >> >>         Jeff, >> >>         After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we >>         decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. >>         So, we will do that in the next version of the draft. >> >>         In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is >>         short, insertion is not needed. >> >> Ron >> >>         Juniper Business Use Only >> >>         *From:* Jeff Tantsura >         > >>         *Sent:* Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM >>         *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >         >; Ron Bonica >         > >>         *Cc:* SING Team >         >; EXT - >>         daniel.bernier@bell.ca >>         >; SPRING >>         WG List > >>         *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >>         Hi Ron, >> >>         Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label = CRH >> value :) >> >>         Cheers, >> >>         Jeff >> >>         On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >         >, wrote: >> >>             Hi Jeff, >> >>             It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given >>             customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one. >> >>             However, there is another way to get exactly the same >>             behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID >> type. >> >>             Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: >> >>             ·SID: 123 >> >>             ·IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 >> >>             ·SID type: prefix SID >> >>             Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: >> >>             2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination >>             address and CRH >> >>             This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding >> SID. >> >>                                                            Ron >> >>             Juniper Business Use Only >> >>             *From:* spring >             > *On Behalf Of* Jeff >> Tantsura >>             *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM >>             *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >             > >>             *Cc:* SING Team >             >; EXT - >>             daniel.bernier@bell.ca >>             >; >>             SPRING WG List > >>             *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing >> >>             There’s number of solutions on the market that extensively >>             use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. >> >>             Regards, >> >>             Jeff >> >> >>             On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) >>             > wrote: >> >>                 +1. >> >>                 As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for >>                 shortening SID list. >> >>                 We should see the important part of binding SID in >>                 inter-domain routing,  since it hides the details of >>                 intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important. >> >>                 Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from >>                 SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyone will still say we >>                 don’t need binding SID. >> >>                 Let’s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful >>                 in inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share >>                 internal info outside a trusted network domain. >> >>                 Cheng >> >>                 *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On >>                 Behalf Of* Bernier, Daniel >>                 *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM >>                 *To:* SING Team >                 > >>                 *Cc:* 'SPRING WG List' >                 > >>                 *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going >> testing >> >>                 +1 >> >>                 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. >> >>                 Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I >>                 don’t need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment >>                 of PSSIs >> >>                 Dan >> >>                 On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" >>                 >                 on behalf of >>                 s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com >>                 > wrote: >> >>                 Hi Andrew, >> >>                 Good to hear that reality experiment :) >> >>                 But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings >>                 outside a trusted network domain? >> >>                 Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in >> SRv6+? >> >>                 Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? >> >>                 Best regards, >>                 Moonlight Thoughts >> >> >>                 (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) >> >>                 On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston >>  wrote: >>                 Hi Guys, >> >>                 I thought this may be of interest in light of >>                 discussions around deployments and running code - >>                 because one of the things we've been testing is >>                 inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK >>                 implementation and another implementation. >> >>                 So - the setup we used last night: >> >>                 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open >>                 internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 >>                 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no >>                 peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 >>                 -> R3 >> >>                 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 >>                 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from the >>                 CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping >>                 for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID >>                 corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID >>                 corresponding to R1 etc) >> >>                 Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely >>                 successful. >> >>                 What this effectively means is that if two providers >>                 agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to >>                 steer across one network, out over an open path, and >>                 across a remote network.  Obviously this relies on the >>                 fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate >>                 providers, but this isn't something we're seeing. >> >>                 Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the >>                 SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work >>                 still going on with regards to this for testing >>                 purposes.  Just as a note - there would be no >>                 requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies >>                 when doing this with BGP - the requirement would be only >>                 to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. >> >>                 I can say from our side - with various other providers - >>                 this is something that we see *immense* use case for - >>                 for a whole host of reasons. >> >>                 Thanks >> >>                 Andrew >> >> >>                 _______________________________________________ >>                 spring mailing list >>                 spring@ietf..org >>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring >> >> >>                 _______________________________________________ >>                 spring mailing list >>                 spring@ietf.org >>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> >> >> >>         _______________________________________________ >> >>         spring mailing list >> >>         spring@ietf.org  >> >>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> */External Email:/*/Please use caution when opening links and >> attachments / /*/Courriel externe:/*/Soyez prudent avec les liens et >> documents joints / >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Thu Sep 26 07:07:04 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B816B120043 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:07:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iVV2VHW2eK2b for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCCED12002F for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id v17so2727285wml.4 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:06:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=glXM7bThdzpXwIOo/VVQd9lKavWyJqXqbmu9Oc/wfLQ=; b=RtXmioe6dZGgeOyKHOaEWVetIo5pcgWcP8+fZUBTLPNS+2TNyBNUEQA4qNHoKhuMoZ tbVRJmjiR3zEk3TftcBTisQv+lyvWmA3KZ7DTYGsfQvAeQEVRUvrldK9x3t3NP82rhSr 3mBaf+/mNgP+3lvPjfqMnNMUUKmFHw+tpLS3frGJJKO7pHU9coxvAyB1RyWOoMV73rqI efvVDO4ftOK/akY1VqfjMXY1wRI1zt4rQkUyrNNE4oc5Auanv2UMzAvey8fSb6rvpipf Drk1R2VVufpNihZTfJy99qmWEjAQANg7rn/t7uRlfEFrFeJPBYsP292dmXCvde7NsiRa TSbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=glXM7bThdzpXwIOo/VVQd9lKavWyJqXqbmu9Oc/wfLQ=; b=crZIdntT5H0g/Vyuu/zlAq9+TBGE1jNJ5R6DjceJ9H1VC5O4oTXsu5LftYNJqj1oe6 h/DP2ltnQSfYaeWvGdNdlv2pSoduLJQKsdYAiItCgAzzesiQXcsjmtGvzJqH5fixY3SP eGcz4S/SGJB4U0W1W1B38Q/qAo+60llt7N0xM5uooGXmF4w4Hr2lXLHtP38OjjjWL3A0 70bPUQAd2ZwJdpKA7wfNGzl8vDKaLfMxeqrNTMFXaBtOGfdTIScu/EyZvDZAxkNqRA9o uvwDjT4QrBLysD8zAiO10HeDjJxOmvdb93oJeypYXwODiCklfyP7sH6L8+8h1H56r5/w r9AA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWq73qVwibkn9Y+T9c6kq2mOExTJHmaZ8qOGdefsK8RsBDuNWQ/ 7a7tlsvojlqeQuloSQG9G6M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxodwnURRTVPIghEgCRBSEy2dsUubRAIOI0pObTfkLyI5+8gh1L/6klTcA5hhp+byqLiD6yZA== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cb8b:: with SMTP id m11mr3283399wmi.145.1569506817102; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Appleton.fritz.box ([62.3.64.16]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o70sm3089109wme.29.2019.09.26.07.06.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Sep 2019 07:06:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Ron Bonica , "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" , Jeff Tantsura , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" Cc: SPRING WG List , SING Team References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <2ab8fa87-587f-9581-4c64-3f096bbd0457@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:06:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9C4651788DC1E105A330066A" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 14:07:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9C4651788DC1E105A330066A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 25/09/2019 22:25, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Daniel, > > I’m not sure that I agree. The PSSI doesn’t represent per-path > information. It represents an instruction to be executed at a segment > endpoint. > > Ron > Like a binding SID? S > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:*Bernier, Daniel > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:41 PM > *To:* Jeff Tantsura ; Ron Bonica > ; Chengli (Cheng Li) ; > Stewart Bryant > *Cc:* SPRING WG List ; SING Team > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ > > Hi Ron, > > Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key > characteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness. > > As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate > node to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are > domain-wide defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending > short-SID). > > Cheers, > > Dan B > > On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" > wrote: > > Agree with Stuart. > > SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let’s not mix things. > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant > >, wrote: > > I agree. > > Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with > draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The > design decribed in draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 > and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states, such a name is not a true > refelction of the design. > > - Stewart > > On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Cheng, > > I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 > may not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. > > Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. > > Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:*Chengli (Cheng Li) > > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica > ; Jeff Tantsura > > *Cc:* SING Team > ; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > ; > SPRING WG List > *Subject:* RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？ > > Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. > > Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit > value like MPLS label. > > Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with > RFC8402:https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 > > > If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it > is not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? > > Thanks, > > Cheng > > *From:*Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >; Jeff Tantsura > > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; > SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Cheng, > > In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the > architecture because: > > -A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long > > -An IPv6 address is 128-bits long > > -Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address > or an IPv6 address to a SID > > The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological > instruction, found in the CRH. Like all topological > instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry. > > There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the > following information: > > -An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header) > > -A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH > >          Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:*Chengli (Cheng Li) > > *Sent:* Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica >; Jeff Tantsura > > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; > SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Hi Ron, > > Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next > revision. > > But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 > address only without any other semantics? Just like the other > SIDs you mentioned in CRH. > > If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH > since it pollutes the architecture. > > If yes, what’s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? > > Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally > agree with you. > > Best regards, > Cheng > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > æŽå‘ˆCheng Li > Email:chengli13@huawei.com > > *From:*Ron Bonica > > > *To:*Jeff Tantsura >;Chengli (Cheng > Li)> > > *Cc:*SING Team >;EXT - > daniel.bernier >;SPRING WG > List> > > *Subject:*RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > *Time:*2019-09-22 04:37:17 > > Jeff, > > After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we > decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to > SRv6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft. > > In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH > is short, insertion is not needed. > >  �� Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:*Jeff Tantsura > > *Sent:* Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) >; Ron Bonica > > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; > SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > Hi Ron, > > Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label = CRH value :) > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica > >, wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > > It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. > Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one. > > However, there is another way to get exactly the same > behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID > type. > > Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: > > ·SID: 123 > > ·IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 > > ·SID type: prefix SID > > Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: > > 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination > address and CRH > > This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. > > Ron > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:*spring > *On Behalf Of* Jeff Tantsura > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - > daniel.bernier@bell.ca > >; > SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > There’s number of solutions on the market that extensively > use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > > wrote: > > +1. > > As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for > shortening SID list. > > We should see the important part of binding SID in > inter-domain routing,  since it hides the details of > intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important. > > Since the EH insertion related text will be removed > from SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyone will still > say we don’t need binding SID. > > Let’s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful > in inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share > internal info outside a trusted network domain. > > Cheng > > *From:*spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On > Behalf Of* Bernier, Daniel > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM > *To:* SING Team > > *Cc:* 'SPRING WG List' > > *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > +1 > > This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. > > Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + > I don’t need to have some sort of inter-domain > alignment of PSSIs > > Dan > > On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING > Team" on behalf of > s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com > > wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > Good to hear that reality experiment :) > > But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings > outside a trusted network domain? > > Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in > SRv6+? > > Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? > > Best regards, > Moonlight Thoughts > > > (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) > > On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston >  wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I thought this may be of interest in light of > discussions around deployments and running code - > because one of the things we've been testing is > inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our > DPDK implementation and another implementation. > > So - the setup we used last night: > > 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open > internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 > 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no > peering between the networks in question.  Call these > R1 -> R3 > > We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> > S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from > the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a > mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the > SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID > corresponding to R1 etc) > > Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely > successful. > > What this effectively means is that if two providers > agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to > steer across one network, out over an open path, and > across a remote network.  Obviously this relies on the > fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate > providers, but this isn't something we're seeing. > > Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the > SID's can then be signaled between the providers - > work still going on with regards to this for testing > purposes. Just as a note - there would be no > requirement to share the full SID mapping or > topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement > would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary > for the steering. > > I can say from our side - with various other providers > - this is something that we see *immense* use case for > - for a whole host of reasons. > > Thanks > > Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf..org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > */External Email:/*/Please use caution when opening links and > attachments / /*/Courriel externe:/*/Soyez prudent avec les liens et > documents joints / > --------------9C4651788DC1E105A330066A Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 25/09/2019 22:25, Ron Bonica wrote:

Daniel,

 

I’m not sure that I agree. The PSSI doesn’t represent per-path information. It represents an instruction to be executed at a segment endpoint.

 

                                                      Ron

Like a binding SID?

S

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Bernier, Daniel <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 3:41 PM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？

 

Hi Ron,

 

Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key characteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness.

 

As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate node to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are domain-wide defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID).

 

Cheers,

 

Dan B

 

On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Agree with Stuart.

SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let’s not mix things.  

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, wrote:

I agree.

Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states, such a name is not a true refelction of the design.

- Stewart

On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote:

Cheng,

 

I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution.

 

Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work.

 

                                                               Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6？

 

Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that.

 

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS label.

 

Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3

 

If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better?

 

Thanks,

Cheng

 

 

From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

Cheng,

 

In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because:

-        A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long

-        An IPv6 address is 128-bits long

-        Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IPv6 address to a SID

The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry.

 

There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following information:

-        An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header)

-        A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH

                                                                 Ron

 

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only without any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.

If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollutes the architecture.

If yes, what’s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.

Best regards,
Cheng

æŽå‘ˆ Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com

From: Ron Bonica<rbonica@juniper.net>

To: Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli13@huawei.com>

Cc: SING Team<s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<daniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

 

Jeff,

 

After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

 ��                                                                                                     Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label = CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer demand, I would not be averse to adding one.

 

However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwarding plane without adding a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry:

 

·        SID: 123

·        IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1

·        SID type: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID.

 

                                                           Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

There’s number of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list.

We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing,  since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always important.

 

Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I don’t think anyone will still say we don’t need binding SID.

Let’s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted network domain.

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

 

+1

 

This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials.

 

Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don’t need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

 

Dan

 

On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Hi Andrew,

Good to hear that reality experiment :)

But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: 

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 -> R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) 

Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviously this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're seeing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ntqTfc3OalV0PE8eFnIzDoP/TcIKSZMPpRPoJEN7xTH7hXk1I8iRtu5p+hLFG09rbLemliAsC3YLw/pxva0HzQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR05MB4003 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-26_08:2019-09-25,2019-09-26 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 suspectscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxlogscore=999 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909260151 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?iso-2022-jp?b?U1ItTVBMUyBvdmVyIElQdjYbJEIhKRsoQg==?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:58:37 -0000 --_000_BN7PR05MB5699D4EB8E7B360BEC877695AE860BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zafar, This is a pretty obvious attempt to create backronymn ( https://en.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Backronym ) with negative connotations. So, I am not taking it s= eriously. (For those who are not native speakers of English, the work =1B$B!H=1B(Blim= p=1B$B!I=1B(B carries negative connotations in English.) = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Zafar Ali (zali) Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 12:17 PM To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; Jeff Tantsura ; Ron Bonica ; Chengli (Cheng L= i) ; Stewart Bryant Cc: SPRING WG List ; SING Team ; Zafar Ali (zali) Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, I agree with Dan, Jeff and others that the name should NOT create confusion= with an already established technology (SR). The name should reflect the design and the spirit of your proposal. To try to help you differentiate your solution, may I propose =1B$B!H=1B(BLIMPH: Label Indirection with MultiPle Headers=1B$B!I=1B(B Here is the rationale: * A new system of mapping IDs to IP addresses is being introduced (btw = we=1B$B!G=1B(Bve had MPLS for doing that for ages now and so is this really= something different?) * Then these mapped IDs are spread across multiple IPv6 extension heade= rs (introducing 2 new RHs and 2 new DOHs) thereby introducing more complexi= ty in IPv6 processing. We have simpler existing solutions [draft-ietf-mpls-= sr-over-ip] i.e. {IPv6 NH =3D UDP, 8 byte UDP header, stack of mapping IDs = aka MPLS labels}. * As Dan mentioned, there is the PSSI for implementing =1B$B!H=1B(Blimi= ted service chaining=1B$B!I=1B(B which seems very similar to RFC8595 and is= stateful and =1B$B!H=1B(Bencodes a logical representation=1B$B!I=1B(B of a= n NSH albeit with a simpler encapsulation and without TLVs just as in RFC85= 95. Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs your individual submissions not continue to cause confusio= n by making use of a marketing name that drags on the coattails of SRv6 (wh= ich has been adopted at the IETF and deployed by the industry). Thanks Regards =1B$B!D=1B(B Zafar From: spring > on b= ehalf of "Bernier, Daniel" > Date: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 at 3:41 PM To: Jeff Tantsura >= , Ron Bonica >, "Chengli (Cheng Li)" >, Stewart Bryant > Cc: SPRING WG List >, SING Team > Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key characteris= tic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness. As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate node = to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are domain-wide= defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID). Cheers, Dan B On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" > wrote: Agree with Stuart. SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs not mix things. Cheers, Jeff On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant >, wrote: I agree. Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-ov= er-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf= -mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states,= such a name is not a true refelction of the design. - Stewart On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: Cheng, I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appr= opriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tant= sura Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; SPRING WG List Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS= label. Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 ba= sed. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? Thanks, Cheng From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Jeff Tantsura > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Cheng, In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because: - A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long - An IPv6 address is 128-bits long - Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or = an IPv6 address to a SID The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in th= e CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry. There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following informa= tion: - An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header= ) - A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) = > Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM To: Ron Bonica >; Jeff Tant= sura > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision. But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH. If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture. If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you. Best regards, Cheng ________________________________ =1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: Ron Bonica> To: Jeff Tantsura>;= Chengli (Cheng Li)> Cc: SING Team>;EXT - daniel.bernier>;SPRING WG List> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17 Jeff, After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that= it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in = the next version of the draft. In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, ins= ertion is not needed. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeff Tantsura > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Ron Bonica > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :) Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market that extensively use B= SID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need bindin= g SID. Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-= domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted n= etwork domain. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt n= eed to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring ________________________________ External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Cou= rriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints --_000_BN7PR05MB5699D4EB8E7B360BEC877695AE860BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Zafar,

&nbs= p;

This is a= pretty obvious attempt to create backronymn ( https://en.wikip= edia.org/wiki/Backronym ) with negative connotations. So, I am not taki= ng it seriously.

 

(For those who are not native speakers of English, t= he work =1B$B!H=1B(Blimp=1B$B!I=1B(B carries negative connotations in = English.)

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;  Ron

 

&nbs= p;

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From:<= /span> Zafar Ali (zali) <= zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 12:17 PM
To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Jef= f Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.= net>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Stewart Bryant &l= t;stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.te= am.0810@gmail.com>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B<= span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">

 

Hi Ron,

&nbs= p;

I agree w= ith Dan, Jeff and others that the name should NOT create confusion with an = already established technology (SR).

The name = should reflect the design and the spirit of your proposal.

&nbs= p;

To try to= help you differentiate your solution, may I propose

&nbs= p;

=1B$B!= H=1B(BLIMPH: Label Indirection with MultiPle Headers=1B$B!I=1B(B=

&nbs= p;

Here is t= he rationale:

  • A new system of mapping= IDs to IP addresses is being introduced (btw we=1B$B!G=1B(Bve had MPLS for= doing that for ages now and so is this really something different?)
  • Then these mapped IDs are spread across multiple IPv6 extension= headers (introducing 2 new RHs and 2 new DOHs) thereby introducing more complexity in IPv6 processing. We have simpler existing solutions [draft-i= etf-mpls-sr-over-ip] i.e. {IPv6 NH =3D UDP, 8 byte UDP header, stack of map= ping IDs aka MPLS labels}.
  • As Dan mentioned, there is the PSSI for implement= ing =1B$B!H=1B(Blimited service chaining=1B$B!I=1B(B which seems very simil= ar to RFC8595 and is stateful and =1B$B!H=1B(Bencodes a logical representation=1B$B!I=1B(B of an NSH albeit = with a simpler encapsulation and without TLVs just as in RFC8595.

Let=1B$B!= G=1B(Bs your individual submissions not continue to cause confusion by maki= ng use of a marketing name that drags on the coattails of SRv6 (which has b= een adopted at the IETF and deployed by the industry).

&nbs= p;

Thanks

&nbs= p;

Regards = =1B$B!D=1B(B Zafar

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

From= : spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on beh= alf of "Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Date: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 at 3:41 PM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jef= ftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,= "Chengli (Cheng Li)" <chengli13@huawei.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bry= ant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>, SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!= )=1B(B

 

Hi Ron,

 

Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key cha= racteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness.<= o:p>

 

As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an interm= ediate node to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are= domain-wide defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID).

 

Cheers,

 

Dan B

 

On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, &= quot;Jeff Tantsura" <jef= ftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Agree with Stuart. <= /o:p>

SRinUDP is a well defined= solution, let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs not mix things.  

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, wrote:=

I agree.

Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-ov= er-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf= -mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states,= such a name is not a true refelction of the design.

- Stewart

On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron = Bonica wrote:

Cheng,

 

I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IP= v6 may not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution.=

 

Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might w= ork.

 

         &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;   Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com><= /a>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">

 

Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last= email, sorry for that.

 

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH,= but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS label.

 

Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC= 8402: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3

 

If possible, I suggest to change the name o= f SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 m= aybe better?

 

Thanks,

Cheng

 

 

From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing=

 

Cheng,

 

In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the a= rchitecture because:

-       = ;   A SID is= either 16-or 32-bits long

-       = ;   An IPv6 = address is 128-bits long

-       = ;   Therefor= e, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IPv6 address to = a SID

The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instru= ction, found in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identif= y an SFIB entry.

 

There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the= following information:

-       = ;   An IPv6 = Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header)

-       = ;   A list o= f SIDs (to be used in the CRH

         &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;             &= nbsp;    Ron

 

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Che= ng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com= >
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.<= br>
If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture.

If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.=

Best regards,
Cheng

=1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com

From: Ron Bonica<rbonica= @juniper.net>

To: Jeff Tantsura<= jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli= 13@huawei.com>

Cc: SING Team<= s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<d= aniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

 

Jeff,

 

After an off-line convers= ation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that it would be trivial = to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in the next version = of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200,= it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

    &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;           Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsur= a <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments,= exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough t= o add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer demand, I would not be ave= rse to adding one.

 

However, there is another= way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwarding plane without addin= g a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we= have the following SFIB entry:

 

·         SID: 123

·         IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1

·         SID type: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also = have the following route on Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6= 3; tunnel with specified destination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same f= orwarding behavior as a binding SID.

 

    &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;    Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <<= a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number= of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as w= ell as multi-layer signaling.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list= .

We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routin= g,  since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy a= re always important.

 

Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft= , I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need b= inding SID.

Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in i= nter-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trus= ted network domain.

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

+1

 

This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials.

 

Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B= $B!G=1B(Bt need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs=

 

Dan

 

On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM,= "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

 

Hi Andrew,

Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: =

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


_______________________________________________=  
spring mailing list 
spring@ietf..org 
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring  

_________________________= ______________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

 

___________________________________________=
____
spring mailing list
spring@i=
etf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/spring

External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints

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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=np3I5B1jAGKbfvC3W4Bjznf/IwvPSNZJKT5uA1VHicc=; b=Gr0cSGER/bmwVd1Womjcq01XIIP+QlSKeNXRj8jGBKAQaB3Wvlwuhjiu+W6DqyPrGD jrSHeWVoHC71FTT+GK/+hQf1y6ycVYRWrXsqMGwWcYobb94sJg1ARdA231UBpTu+omzU 8Gp1fHY1sVipdKsXtf+H/GnTTestqcszN1SX8V4Z5Q/LF0fYFA+vtCDtTdnHidexJJPU b2Hf7br6zCAji9afmQLy5fP1xFTxRHpFP43g1OrtV40f45Q7YECmqcmOy2tWRMqqmLpI QvfiA4aebiq5GyEG8CAY2IbuHGLmuoXjwxoX1ZL26Eb8yH7opFejUyjk+9aeiEN8cgFw pOqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=np3I5B1jAGKbfvC3W4Bjznf/IwvPSNZJKT5uA1VHicc=; b=jgfzeGy6/p83U+HrWaKR1UFqLRFNqhdQZpK0v8scqXCjQRNnSNoDsrMsNCm9aCnxDl HfrEND4c8FP/7aLL2WsEVeDcSYSr0O+XwmP+6eODMLC8CIIB58BhvF0l/ThqDpo3n14a 6zv3JJIPQRtsojVRQz7WgwBD+MrONEQeDwIJjEcrXDofz8h1oZfColMKzycCm2/D8STn euzw/DA9Jfu77ld95bvWfPC3H0KLlqaBAx+2n+lWHAv48EWSh2CzgNezev9gbmpULuNN 6CNMB2SOkj/V+zwIMpS5jsE53Go03BBOWPcXA0uEBLTbHYTBML8iBzUVvQidKxZG9pTs axDg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV8CF/UIbmve3BE9UuLxDLOwhSaFFDIlt3lAQLUNwvwtb81+ovT f4GtJHZ+zbEmyvMJy64nn2SsvwdnBzeIciF0e/0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwYThqZRddFvNBzoKmELM89STIFJuiPlTCHl/Eh4WzVoJ6jlQX/FfXRqtrNUyIAeUtPAonZOU+ALq6g6gtKe+I= X-Received: by 2002:aca:a9c3:: with SMTP id s186mr4936692oie.60.1569545011729; Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:43:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> <0613CA2A-E5A5-4D49-9F2B-A57CD9B702A0@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <0613CA2A-E5A5-4D49-9F2B-A57CD9B702A0@cisco.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 10:43:19 +1000 Message-ID: To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Cc: "Bernier, Daniel" , Jeff Tantsura , Ron Bonica , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Stewart Bryant , SPRING WG List , SING Team Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e2197005937e2c47" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 00:43:36 -0000 --000000000000e2197005937e2c47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Supposedly "Segment Routing" is an architecture according to RFC 8402, so anything that satisfies the architecture can use the term "Segment Routing"= . If SPRING want to play that game, then stop using "IPv6", because a number of proposals blatantly and purposely don't comply with Internet Standard RFC 8200, and other Standards Track RFCs like RFC 4291. A proprietary variant of IPv6 isn't IPv6, it's something else. On Fri, 27 Sep 2019, 02:17 Zafar Ali (zali), wrote: > Hi Ron, > > > > I agree with Dan, Jeff and others that the name should NOT create > confusion with an already established technology (SR). > > The name should reflect the design and the spirit of your proposal. > > > > To try to help you differentiate your solution, may I propose > > > > *=E2=80=9CLIMPH: Label Indirection with MultiPle Headers=E2=80=9D* > > > > Here is the rationale: > > - A new system of mapping IDs to IP addresses is being introduced (btw > we=E2=80=99ve had MPLS for doing that for ages now and so is this real= ly something > different?) > - Then these mapped IDs are spread across multiple IPv6 extension > headers (introducing 2 new RHs and 2 new DOHs) thereby introducing mor= e > complexity in IPv6 processing. We have simpler existing solutions > [draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip] i.e. {IPv6 NH =3D UDP, 8 byte UDP header,= stack > of mapping IDs aka MPLS labels}. > - As Dan mentioned, there is the PSSI for implementing =E2=80=9Climite= d > service chaining=E2=80=9D which seems very similar to RFC8595 and is s= tateful and > =E2=80=9Cencodes a logical representation=E2=80=9D of an NSH albeit wi= th a simpler > encapsulation and without TLVs just as in RFC8595. > > Let=E2=80=99s your individual submissions not continue to cause confusion= by > making use of a marketing name that drags on the coattails of SRv6 (which > has been adopted at the IETF and deployed by the industry). > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of "Bernier, Daniel" < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca> > *Date: *Wednesday, September 25, 2019 at 3:41 PM > *To: *Jeff Tantsura , Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , > Stewart Bryant > *Cc: *SPRING WG List , SING Team < > s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=EF=BC=9F > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key > characteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness. > > > > As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate nod= e > to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are domain-wi= de > defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID). > > > > Cheers, > > > > Dan B > > > > On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" wrote: > > > > Agree with Stuart. > > SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let=E2=80=99s not mix things. > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant = , > wrote: > > > I agree. > > Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with > draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design > decribed in draft-ietf-mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Als= o > course, as Ron states, such a name is not a true refelction of the design= . > > - Stewart > > On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Cheng, > > > > I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be > appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. > > > > Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. > > > > Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica ; Jeff > Tantsura > *Cc:* SING Team > ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca > ; SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=EF=BC=9F > > > > Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. > > > > Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like > MPLS label. > > > > Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 > > > > > If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 > based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? > > > > Thanks, > > Cheng > > > > > > *From:* Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net ] > *Sent:* Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Jeff Tantsura < > jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > Cheng, > > > > In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because: > > - A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long > > - An IPv6 address is 128-bits long > > - Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address > or an IPv6 address to a SID > > The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in > the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entr= y. > > > > There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following > information: > > - An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 > header) > > - A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > *Sent:* Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tantsura < > jefftant.ietf@gmail.com> > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > Hi Ron, > > Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision. > > But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only > without any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CR= H. > > If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it > pollutes the architecture. > > If yes, what=E2=80=99s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? > > Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with yo= u. > > Best regards, > Cheng > ------------------------------ > > =E6=9D=8E=E5=91=88 Cheng Li > Email: chengli13@huawei.com > > *From:* Ron Bonica > > *To:* Jeff Tantsura;Chengli (Cheng Li)< > chengli13@huawei.com> > > *Cc:* SING Team;EXT - daniel.bernier< > daniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List > > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > *Time:* 2019-09-22 04:37:17 > > > > Jeff, > > > > After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided > that it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do th= at > in the next version of the draft. > > > > In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, > insertion is not needed. > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* Jeff Tantsura > *Sent:* Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) ; Ron Bonica < > rbonica@juniper.net> > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List > *Subject:* RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :) > > > > Cheers, > > Jeff > > On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica , wrote: > > Hi Jeff, > > > > It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer > demand, I would not be averse to adding one. > > > > However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the > forwarding plane without adding a new SID type. > > > > Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: > > > > =C2=B7 SID: 123 > > =C2=B7 IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 > > =C2=B7 SID type: prefix SID > > > > Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: > > > > 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH > > > > This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of* Jeff Tantsura > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM > *To:* Chengli (Cheng Li) > *Cc:* SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List > *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > There=E2=80=99s number of solutions on the market that extensively use BS= ID for > multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. > > > > Regards, > > Jeff > > > On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: > > +1. > > > > As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. > > We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, > since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are > always important. > > > > Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I > don=E2=80=99t think anyone will still say we don=E2=80=99t need binding S= ID. > > Let=E2=80=99s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-d= omain > routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted networ= k > domain. > > > > Cheng > > > > > > *From:* spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of* Bernier, Daniel > *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM > *To:* SING Team > > *Cc:* 'SPRING WG List' > *Subject:* Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing > > > > +1 > > > > This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. > > > > Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=E2=80=99t ne= ed to > have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs > > > > Dan > > > > On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" < > spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Andrew, > > Good to hear that reality experiment :) > > But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted > network domain? > > Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? > > Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? > > Best regards, > Moonlight Thoughts > > > (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) > > On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston > wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around > deployments and running code - because one of the things we've been testi= ng > is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation > and another implementation. > > So - the setup we used last night: > > 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call thes= e > S1 -> S6 > 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between th= e > networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 > > We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> > R3, with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying > addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the > SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 > etc) > > Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. > > What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the > SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an op= en > path, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact tha= t > EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't > something we're seeing. > > Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be > signaled between the providers - work still going on with regards to this > for testing purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to > share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the > requirement would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the > steering. > > I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is somethin= g > that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. > > Thanks > > Andrew > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf..org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > ------------------------------ > > *External Email:** Please use caution when opening links and attachments > / **Courriel externe:** Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints = * > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000e2197005937e2c47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Supposedly "Segment Routing" is an archite= cture according to RFC 8402, so anything that satisfies the architecture ca= n use the term "Segment Routing".

If SPRING want to play that game, then stop using "= ;IPv6", because a number of proposals blatantly and purposely don'= t comply with Internet Standard RFC 8200, and other Standards Track RFCs li= ke RFC 4291.

A proprieta= ry variant of IPv6 isn't IPv6, it's something else.

On Fr= i, 27 Sep 2019, 02:17 Zafar Ali (zali), <zali@cisco.com> w= rote:

Hi Ron,

=C2=A0

I agree with Dan, Jeff and others that the nam= e should NOT create confusion with an already established technology (SR).

The name should reflect the design and the spi= rit of your proposal.

=C2=A0

To try to help you differentiate your solution= , may I propose

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9CLIMPH: Label Indirection with Mult= iPle Headers=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

Here is the rationale:

  • A new system of mapping IDs to IP addresses is bei= ng introduced (btw we=E2=80=99ve had MPLS for doing that for ages now and s= o is this really something different?)
  • Then these m= apped IDs are spread across multiple IPv6 extension headers (introducing 2 = new RHs and 2 new DOHs) thereby introducing more complexity in IPv6 processing. We have simpler existing solutions [draft-i= etf-mpls-sr-over-ip] i.e. {IPv6 NH =3D UDP, 8 byte UDP header, stack of map= ping IDs aka MPLS labels}.
  • As Dan mentioned, there is the PSSI for implementing =E2=80=9Climited ser= vice chaining=E2=80=9D which seems very similar to RFC8595 and is stateful = and =E2=80=9Cencodes a logical representation=E2=80=9D of an NSH albeit with a= simpler encapsulation and without TLVs just as in RFC8595.

Let=E2=80=99s your individual submissions not = continue to cause confusion by making use of a marketing name that drags on= the coattails of SRv6 (which has been adopted at the IETF and deployed by = the industry).

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From= : spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Ber= nier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca= >
Date: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 at 3:41 PM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail= .com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40ju= niper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Chengli (Cheng Li)" <chengli13@huawei.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>, S= ING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com= >
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=EF=BC= =9F

=C2=A0

Hi Ron,

=C2=A0

Similarly I would r= efrain from using the SR acronym since a key characteristic of the SR archi= tecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness.

=C2=A0

As per current SRv6= + documents, state is required for an intermediate node to add the relevant= next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are domain-wide defined or with lo= cal significance (i.e. prepending short-SID).

=C2=A0<= /span>

Cheers,

=C2=A0

Dan B=

=C2=A0

On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, &= quot;Jeff Tantsura" <jefftant.ietf@gmail= .com> wrote:

=C2=A0

Agree with Stuart.

SRinUDP is a well defined= solution, let=E2=80=99s not mix things. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM = +0200, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmai= l.com>, wrote:


I agree.

Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-ov= er-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf= -mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states,= such a name is not a true refelction of the design.

- Stewart

On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron = Bonica wrote:

Cheng,

=C2=A0

I have no problem w= ith changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appropriate, because MP= LS is not part of the solution.

=C2=A0

Something like SR-e= xtensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@g= mail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <s= pring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=EF=BC=9F

=C2=A0

Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that.

=C2=A0

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like= MPLS label.

=C2=A0

Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3

=C2=A0

If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not SR= v6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Cheng

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.= com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gma= il.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@= gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

=C2=A0

Cheng,

=C2=A0

In SRv6+, it would = be very difficult to pollute the architecture because:=

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A SID is either 16-or 3= 2-bits long

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 An IPv6 address is 128-= bits long

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Therefore, it is imposs= ible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IPv6 address to a SID

The binding SID wil= l be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in the CRH. Like all top= ological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry.=

=C2=A0

There will be a new= SFIB entry type that will contain the following information:=

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 An IPv6 Destination Add= ress (to be used in the outer IPv6 header)

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A list of SIDs (to be u= sed in the CRH

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= u>

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Che= ng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>= ;; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com= >
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@= gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

=C2=A0

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.<= br>
If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture.

If yes, what=E2=80=99s the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.=

Best regards,
Cheng

=E6=9D=8E=E5=91=88 Cheng Li
Email: chen= gli13@huawei.com

From: Ron Bonica<rbonica@juniper.net>

To: Jeff Tantsura<jefftant.ietf@g= mail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli13@huawei.com>

Cc: SING Team<s.i.n.g.team.08= 10@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<daniel.bernier@= bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<= spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

=C2=A0<= u>

Jeff,

=C2=A0

After an off-line convers= ation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that it would be trivial to a= dd a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in the next version of the d= raft.

=C2=A0

In keeping with RFC 8200,= it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.<= /u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsur= a <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.= com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net&= gt;
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@= gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

=C2=A0

Hi Ron,

=C2=A0

Thanks for your comments,= exactly,=C2=A0BSID=C2=A0MPLS label =3D CRH value :)

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbon= ica@juniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

=C2=A0

It would be easy enough t= o add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer demand, I would not be averse = to adding one.

=C2=A0

However, there is another= way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwarding plane without addin= g a new SID type.

=C2=A0

Assume that on Node N, we= have the following SFIB entry:

=C2=A0

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SID: 123

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IPv6 address: 2001:db8= ::1

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SID type: prefix SID <= u>

=C2=A0

Now assume that was also = have the following route on Node N:

=C2=A0

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ t= unnel with specified destination address and CRH

=C2=A0

This gives you the same f= orwarding behavior as a binding SID.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <<= a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer nore= ferrer" target=3D"_blank">spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.= com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@= gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

=C2=A0

There=E2=80=99s number of= solutions on the market that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as well= as multi-layer signaling.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

=C2=A0

As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list= .

We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routin= g, =C2=A0since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy a= re always important.

=C2=A0

Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft= , I don=E2=80=99t think anyone will still say we don=E2=80=99t need binding= SID.

Let=E2=80=99s be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inte= r-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted= network domain.

=C2=A0

Cheng

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i..n.g.team.0810@= gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org<= /a>>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

=C2=A0

+1

=C2=A0

This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials.=

=C2=A0

Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=E2=80= =99t need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs

=C2=A0

Dan

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi Andrew,

Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49,=C2=A0Andrew Alston=C2=A0wrote:
Hi Guys,=C2=A0

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both ou= r DPDK implementation and another implementation.=C2=A0

So - the setup we used last night:=C2=A0=

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.=C2=A0 Call these S1 -> S6=C2=A0
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.=C2=A0 Call these R1 ->= R3=C2=A0

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the S= ID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc)=C2=A0<= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful. =C2=A0=C2=A0

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.=C2=A0 Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we&#= 39;re seeing.=C2=A0

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still goin= g on with regards to this for testing purposes.=C2=A0 Just as a note - ther= e would be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering.=C2=A0<= /span>

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons.=C2=A0

Thanks=C2=A0

Andrew=C2=A0


_______________________________________________= =C2=A0
spring mailing list=C2=A0
spring@ietf..org=C2=A0
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring=C2=A0=C2=A0

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spring@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring




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Ext= ernal Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints

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charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zafar, I=1B$B!G=1B(Bm sorry. I didn=1B$B!G=1B(Bt realize that you are not a native= speaker. Your English is excellent! Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs just call it an unfortunate acronym and move on. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Zafar Ali (zali) Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:13 PM To: Ron Bonica ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; Jeff Tantsura ; Chengli (Cheng L= i) ; Stewart Bryant Cc: SPRING WG List ; SING Team ; Zafar Ali (zali) Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, =1B$B!H=1B(Blimp=1B$B!I=1B(B is indeed humorous interpretation! I can see w= hy you would not want to take seriously! I do confess that I=1B$B!G=1B(Bm not a native English speaker. I intended it to be pronounced =1B$B!H=1B(B/limf/=1B$B!I=1B(B as in the =1B= $B!H=1B(Blymphatic system=1B$B!I=1B(B due to the distribution of state to n= odes in the system. Thanks Regards =1B$B!D=1B(B Zafar From: Ron Bonica > Date: Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 2:58 PM To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" >, "EXT - dani= el.bernier@bell.ca" >, Jeff Tantsura >, "Chengli (Cheng Li)" >, Stewart Bryant > Cc: SPRING WG List >, SING Team > Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Zafar, This is a pretty obvious attempt to create backronymn ( https://en.wikipedi= a.org/wiki/Backronym ) with negative connotations. So, I am not taking it se= riously. (For those who are not native speakers of English, the work =1B$B!H=1B(Blim= p=1B$B!I=1B(B carries negative connotations in English.) = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Zafar Ali (zali) > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 12:17 PM To: EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; Jeff Tantsura >; Ron Bonica >; Chengli (Cheng Li) >; Stewart Bryant > Cc: SPRING WG List >; SING Team >; Zafar Ali (= zali) > Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, I agree with Dan, Jeff and others that the name should NOT create confusion= with an already established technology (SR). The name should reflect the design and the spirit of your proposal. To try to help you differentiate your solution, may I propose =1B$B!H=1B(BLIMPH: Label Indirection with MultiPle Headers=1B$B!I=1B(B Here is the rationale: * A new system of mapping IDs to IP addresses is being introduced (btw = we=1B$B!G=1B(Bve had MPLS for doing that for ages now and so is this really= something different?) * Then these mapped IDs are spread across multiple IPv6 extension heade= rs (introducing 2 new RHs and 2 new DOHs) thereby introducing more complexi= ty in IPv6 processing. We have simpler existing solutions [draft-ietf-mpls-= sr-over-ip] i.e. {IPv6 NH =3D UDP, 8 byte UDP header, stack of mapping IDs = aka MPLS labels}. * As Dan mentioned, there is the PSSI for implementing =1B$B!H=1B(Blimi= ted service chaining=1B$B!I=1B(B which seems very similar to RFC8595 and is= stateful and =1B$B!H=1B(Bencodes a logical representation=1B$B!I=1B(B of a= n NSH albeit with a simpler encapsulation and without TLVs just as in RFC85= 95. Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs your individual submissions not continue to cause confusio= n by making use of a marketing name that drags on the coattails of SRv6 (wh= ich has been adopted at the IETF and deployed by the industry). Thanks Regards =1B$B!D=1B(B Zafar From: spring > on b= ehalf of "Bernier, Daniel" > Date: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 at 3:41 PM To: Jeff Tantsura >= , Ron Bonica >, "Chengli (Cheng Li)" >, Stewart Bryant > Cc: SPRING WG List >, SING Team > Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key characteris= tic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness. As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an intermediate node = to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are domain-wide= defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID). Cheers, Dan B On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, "Jeff Tantsura" > wrote: Agree with Stuart. SRinUDP is a well defined solution, let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs not mix things. Cheers, Jeff On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant >, wrote: I agree. Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-ov= er-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf= -mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states,= such a name is not a true refelction of the design. - Stewart On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron Bonica wrote: Cheng, I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IPv6 may not be appr= opriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution. Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might work. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM To: Ron Bonica ; Jeff Tant= sura Cc: SING Team ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; SPRING WG List Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last email, sorry for that. Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH, but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS= label. Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC8402: https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/rfc8402#section-3.1.3 If possible, I suggest to change the name of SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 ba= sed. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 maybe better? Thanks, Cheng From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net] Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Jeff Tantsura > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Cheng, In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the architecture because: - A SID is either 16-or 32-bits long - An IPv6 address is 128-bits long - Therefore, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or = an IPv6 address to a SID The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instruction, found in th= e CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identify an SFIB entry. There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the following informa= tion: - An IPv6 Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header= ) - A list of SIDs (to be used in the CRH Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Chengli (Cheng Li) = > Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM To: Ron Bonica >; Jeff Tant= sura > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision. But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH. If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture. If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address? Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you. Best regards, Cheng ________________________________ =1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li Email: chengli13@huawei.com From: Ron Bonica> To: Jeff Tantsura>;= Chengli (Cheng Li)> Cc: SING Team>;EXT - daniel.bernier>;SPRING WG List> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17 Jeff, After an off-line conversation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that= it would be trivial to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in = the next version of the draft. In keeping with RFC 8200, it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, ins= ertion is not needed. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: Jeff Tantsura > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) >;= Ron Bonica > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing Hi Ron, Thanks for your comments, exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :) Cheers, Jeff On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica >, wrote: Hi Jeff, It would be easy enough to add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer deman= d, I would not be averse to adding one. However, there is another way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwa= rding plane without adding a new SID type. Assume that on Node N, we have the following SFIB entry: * SID: 123 * IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1 * SID type: prefix SID Now assume that was also have the following route on Node N: 2001:db8::1 -> SRv6+ tunnel with specified destination address and CRH This gives you the same forwarding behavior as a binding SID. Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Jeff Tantsura Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM To: Chengli (Cheng Li) > Cc: SING Team >; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca >; SPRING WG List > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number of solutions on the market that extensively use B= SID for multi-domain as well as multi-layer signaling. Regards, Jeff On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) > wrote: +1. As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list. We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routing, s= ince it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy are always = important. Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft, I d= on=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need bindin= g SID. Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in inter-= domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trusted n= etwork domain. Cheng From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM To: SING Team > Cc: 'SPRING WG List' > Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing +1 This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials. Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt n= eed to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs Dan On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM, "spring on behalf of SING Team" on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail= .com> wrote: Hi Andrew, Good to hear that reality experiment :) But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappings outside a trusted networ= k domain? Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv6, in SRv6+? Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right? Best regards, Moonlight Thoughts (mail failure, try to cc to spring again.) On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston = wrote: Hi Guys, I thought this may be of interest in light of discussions around deployment= s and running code - because one of the things we've been testing is inter-= domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DPDK implementation and anothe= r implementation. So - the setup we used last night: 6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the open internet. Call these = S1 -> S6 3 systems in a lab on the other side of the world - no peering between the = networks in question. Call these R1 -> R3 We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -> S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3,= with the relevant mappings from the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing= (S2 had a mapping for the SID for S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresp= onding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) Then we sent some packets - and the test was entirely successful. What this effectively means is that if two providers agree to share the SID= mappings - it is possible to steer across one network, out over an open pa= th, and across a remote network. Obviously this relies on the fact that EH= 's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something= we're seeing. Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and the SID's can then be signa= led between the providers - work still going on with regards to this for te= sting purposes. Just as a note - there would be no requirement to share th= e full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement= would be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. I can say from our side - with various other providers - this is something = that we see *immense* use case for - for a whole host of reasons. Thanks Andrew _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf..org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/Spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring ________________________________ External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Cou= rriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints --_000_BN7PR05MB5699EE338A965E9F67A39A0FAE810BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Zafar,

&nbs= p;

I=1B$B!G= =1B(Bm sorry. I didn=1B$B!G=1B(Bt realize that you are not a native speaker= . Your English is excellent!

&nbs= p;

Let=1B$B!= G=1B(Bs just call it an unfortunate acronym and move on.<= /p>

&nbs= p;

 &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =              &n= bsp;            = ;  Ron

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From:<= /span> Zafar Ali (zali) <= zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 7:13 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bel= l.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.= com>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Stewart Bryant &l= t;stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.te= am.0810@gmail.com>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B<= span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:EN-US">

 

Hi Ron, <= o:p>

 

=1B$B!H=1B(Blimp=1B$B!I=1B(B is indeed humorous interpretation! I can = see why you would not want to take seriously!

 

I do confess that I=1B$B!G=1B(Bm not a native English speaker.

I intended it to be pronounced =1B$B!H=1B(B/limf/=1B$B!I=1B(B as in th= e =1B$B!H=1B(Blymphatic system=1B$B!I=1B(B due to the distribution of state= to nodes in the system. 

&nbs= p;

Thanks

&nbs= p;

Regards = =1B$B!D=1B(B Zafar

&nbs= p;

From= : Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Date: Thursday, September 26, 2019 at 2:58 PM
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>, "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" = <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>= ;, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ie= tf@gmail.com>, "Chengli (Cheng Li)" <chengli13@huawei.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bry= ant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>, SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!= )=1B(B

 

Zafar,

 

This is a= pretty obvious attempt to create backronymn ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backronym ) with negativ= e connotations. So, I am not taking it seriously.

 

(For those who are not native speakers of English, t= he work =1B$B!H=1B(Blimp=1B$B!I=1B(B carries negative connotations in = English.)

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;  Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From:<= /span> Zafar Ali (zali) <= zali@cisco.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2019 12:17 PM
To: EXT - daniel.bernier@b= ell.ca <daniel.bernier@bel= l.ca>; Jeff Tantsura <= jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@h= uawei.com>; Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B<= o:p>

 

Hi Ron,

 

I agree w= ith Dan, Jeff and others that the name should NOT create confusion with an = already established technology (SR).

The name = should reflect the design and the spirit of your proposal.

 

To try to= help you differentiate your solution, may I propose

 

=1B$B!= H=1B(BLIMPH: Label Indirection with MultiPle Headers=1B$B!I=1B(B=

 

Here is t= he rationale:

  • A new system of mapping= IDs to IP addresses is being introduced (btw we=1B$B!G=1B(Bve had MPLS for= doing that for ages now and so is this really something different?)
  • Then these mapped IDs are spread across multiple IPv6 extension= headers (introducing 2 new RHs and 2 new DOHs) thereby introducing more complexity in IPv6 processing. We have simpler existing solutions [draft-i= etf-mpls-sr-over-ip] i.e. {IPv6 NH =3D UDP, 8 byte UDP header, stack of map= ping IDs aka MPLS labels}.
  • As Dan mentioned, there is the PSSI for implement= ing =1B$B!H=1B(Blimited service chaining=1B$B!I=1B(B which seems very simil= ar to RFC8595 and is stateful and =1B$B!H=1B(Bencodes a logical representation=1B$B!I=1B(B of an NSH albeit = with a simpler encapsulation and without TLVs just as in RFC8595.

Let=1B$B!= G=1B(Bs your individual submissions not continue to cause confusion by maki= ng use of a marketing name that drags on the coattails of SRv6 (which has b= een adopted at the IETF and deployed by the industry).

 

Thanks

 

Regards = =1B$B!D=1B(B Zafar

 

 

From= : spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on beh= alf of "Bernier, Daniel" <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>
Date: Wednesday, September 25, 2019 at 3:41 PM
To: Jeff Tantsura <jef= ftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>,= "Chengli (Cheng Li)" <chengli13@huawei.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bry= ant@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@iet= f.org>, SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!= )=1B(B

 

Hi Ron,

 

Similarly I would refrain from using the SR acronym since a key cha= racteristic of the SR architecture as per RFC8402 is statelessness.<= o:p>

 

As per current SRv6+ documents, state is required for an interm= ediate node to add the relevant next PSSIs in DOH. This is whether they are= domain-wide defined or with local significance (i.e. prepending short-SID).

 

Cheers,

 

Dan B

 

On 2019-09-25, 8:43 AM, &= quot;Jeff Tantsura" <jef= ftant.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Agree with Stuart. <= /o:p>

SRinUDP is a well defined= solution, let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs not mix things.  

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 25, 2019, 2:39 PM +0200, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, wrote:=

I agree.

Inclusion of the term MPLS would cause confusion with draft-ietf-mpls-sr-ov= er-ip, which is entitled SR-MPLS over IP. The design decribed in draft-ietf= -mpls-sr-over-ip works over both IPv4 and IPv6. Also course, as Ron states,= such a name is not a true refelction of the design.

- Stewart

On 24/09/2019 05:01, Ron = Bonica wrote:

Cheng,

 

I have no problem with changing the name. SR-MPLS over IP= v6 may not be appropriate, because MPLS is not part of the solution.=

 

Something like SR-extensible-6 or SR-compressed-6 might w= ork.

 

         &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;   Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:14 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com><= /a>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= .n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B<= span lang=3D"ZH-CN" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">

 

Oh, I misunderstood the BSID in CRH in last= email, sorry for that.

 

Yes, the SID is not an IPv6 address in CRH,= but a 16/32 bit value like MPLS label.

 

Therefore, IMHO, it may not comply with RFC= 8402: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8402#section-3.1.3

 

If possible, I suggest to change the name o= f SRv6+, since it is not SRv6 based. Something like SR-MPLS over IPv6 m= aybe better?

 

Thanks,

Cheng

 

 

From: Ron Bonica [mailto:rbonica@juniper.net]
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2019 10:45 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing=

 

Cheng,

 

In SRv6+, it would be very difficult to pollute the a= rchitecture because:

-       = ;   A SID is= either 16-or 32-bits long

-       = ;   An IPv6 = address is 128-bits long

-       = ;   Therefor= e, it is impossible to copy a SID to an IPv6 address or an IPv6 address to = a SID

The binding SID will be a 16-or 32-bit topological instru= ction, found in the CRH. Like all topological instructions, it will identif= y an SFIB entry.

 

There will be a new SFIB entry type that will contain the= following information:

-       = ;   An IPv6 = Destination Address (to be used in the outer IPv6 header)

-       = ;   A list o= f SIDs (to be used in the CRH

         &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;             &= nbsp;    Ron

 

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Chengli (Che= ng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com= >
Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2019 12:01 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

Good to hear that. Looking forward to seeing it in the next revision.

But I am curious that is a bind SID in CRH an interface IPv6 address only w= ithout any other semantics? Just like the other SIDs you mentioned in CRH.<= br>
If not, this binding SID should not be introduced in to CRH since it pollut= es the architecture.

If yes, what=1B$B!G=1B(Bs the standard for an Interface IPv6 address?

Thanks for confirming that BSID is needed in CRH. I totally agree with you.=

Best regards,
Cheng

=1B$BM{Dh=1B(B Cheng Li
Email: chengli13@huawei.com

From: Ron Bonica<rbonica= @juniper.net>

To: Jeff Tantsura<= jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>;Chengli (Cheng Li)<chengli= 13@huawei.com>

Cc: SING Team<= s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>;EXT - daniel.bernier<d= aniel.bernier@bell.ca>;SPRING WG List<spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing

Time: 2019-09-22 04:37:17

 

Jeff,

 

After an off-line convers= ation with the SRv6+ implementors, we decided that it would be trivial = to add a binding SID to SRv6+. So, we will do that in the next version = of the draft.

 

In keeping with RFC 8200,= it will prepend only. Since the CRH is short, insertion is not needed.

 

    &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;           Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: Jeff Tantsur= a <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2019 4:32 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: RE: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

Hi Ron,

 

Thanks for your comments,= exactly, BSID MPLS label =3D CRH value :)

 

Cheers,

Jeff

On Sep 20, 2019, 11:09 AM -0700, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, wrote:

Hi Jeff,

 

It would be easy enough t= o add a binding SID to SRv6+. Given customer demand, I would not be ave= rse to adding one.

 

However, there is another= way to get exactly the same behavior on the forwarding plane without addin= g a new SID type.

 

Assume that on Node N, we= have the following SFIB entry:

 

·         SID: 123

·         IPv6 address: 2001:db8::1

·         SID type: prefix SID

 

Now assume that was also = have the following route on Node N:

 

2001:db8::1 -> SRv6= 3; tunnel with specified destination address and CRH

 

This gives you the same f= orwarding behavior as a binding SID.

 

    &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;    Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <<= a href=3D"mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org">spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jeff Tantsura
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 10:53 PM
To: Chengli (Cheng Li) <c= hengli13@huawei.com>
Cc: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; SPR= ING WG List <spring@ietf.org><= br> Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

There=1B$B!G=1B(Bs number= of solutions on the market that extensively use BSID for multi-domain as w= ell as multi-layer signaling.

 

Regards,

Jeff


On Sep 19, 2019, at 19:49, Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com> wrote:

+1.

 

As I mentioned before, Binding SID is not only for shortening SID list= .

We should see the important part of binding SID in inter-domain routin= g,  since it hides the details of intra-domain. Security and Privacy a= re always important.

 

Since the EH insertion related text will be removed from SRv6 NP draft= , I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt think anyone will still say we don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt need b= inding SID.

Let=1B$B!G=1B(Bs be honest, Encap mode Binding SID is very useful in i= nter-domain routing. It is not secure to share internal info outside a trus= ted network domain.

 

Cheng

 

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Bernier, Daniel
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:36 PM
To: SING Team <s.i= ..n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Cc: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] A note on CRH and on going testing<= /p>

 

+1

 

This is what we did on our multi-cloud trials.

 

Encap with Binding SID to avoid inter-domain mapping + I don=1B= $B!G=1B(Bt need to have some sort of inter-domain alignment of PSSIs=

 

Dan

 

On 2019-09-19, 11:18 AM,= "spring on behalf of SING Team" <spring-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:

 

Hi Andrew,

Good to hear that reality experiment :)<= br>
But is it secure to share internal SID-IP mappi= ngs outside a trusted network domain?

Or is there an analogue like Binding SID of SRv= 6, in SRv6+?

Btw, PSSI and PPSI can not do that now, right?<= /span>

Best regards,
Moonlight Thoughts


(mail failure, try to cc to spring again.)

On 09/19/2019 17:49, Andrew Alston wrote:
Hi Guys, 

I thought this may be of interest in light of d= iscussions around deployments and running code - because one of the things = we've been testing is inter-domain traffic steering with CRH on both our DP= DK implementation and another implementation. 

So - the setup we used last night: =

6 systems in a lab - one of which linked to the= open internet.  Call these S1 -> S6 
3 systems in a lab on the other side of the wor= ld - no peering between the networks in question.  Call these R1 ->= R3 

We applied a SID list on S1, that steered S1 -&= gt; S2 -> S3 -> S6 -> R1 -> R3, with the relevant mappings from= the CRH SID's to the underlying addressing (S2 had a mapping for the SID f= or S3, S3 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to S6, S6 had a mapping for the SID corresponding to R1 etc) <= br>
Then we sent some packets - and the test was en= tirely successful.   

What this effectively means is that if two prov= iders agree to share the SID mappings - it is possible to steer across one = network, out over an open path, and across a remote network.  Obviousl= y this relies on the fact that EH's aren't being dropped by intermediate providers, but this isn't something we're se= eing. 

Combine this with the BGP signaling draft - and= the SID's can then be signaled between the providers - work still going on= with regards to this for testing purposes.  Just as a note - there wo= uld be no requirement to share the full SID mapping or topologies when doing this with BGP - the requirement would= be only to share the relevant SID's necessary for the steering. 

I can say from our side - with various other pr= oviders - this is something that we see *immense* use case for - for a whol= e host of reasons. 

Thanks 

Andrew 


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /p>

 

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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: sQ8iQ/JJRo6Xrm19PlCXswUYyljcQCc1kjffsQ99/e8zVRzP5u0i9HciesrENLAxf5SqWn9MFFQ0dmiTnv7ucA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR05MB6305 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-27_06:2019-09-25,2019-09-27 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1015 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909270136 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-03.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:37:06 -0000 --_000_BN7PR05MB569953ECE8CFD1AD3F04DC0EAE810BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pablo, Now that T.insert and B.Insert have been removed, what are the remaining us= e cases for USP and PSP? = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamar= il) Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 7:13 AM To: li zhenqiang ; spring@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org Cc: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: Re: [spring] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra= mming-03.txt Hi Zhenqiang, Can you clarify what is the issue with the PSP and USP flavors and how it i= s related to SRH insertion? For example USP flavor removes the SRH at the last segment (the final desti= nation of the IP packet), before proceeding with the upper layer header pro= cessing. Cheers, Pablo. From: li zhenqiang > Date: Friday, 27 September 2019 at 10:41 To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" >, "spring@ietf.org" >, "ipv6@ietf.org" > Cc: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > Subject: Re: [spring] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra= mming-03.txt Hi Pablo and all, Thank the authors for their efforts and quick reponse to the discussion in = the list. Since the SRH insertion parts are now removed from the base srv6 network pr= ogramming draft, are the PSP and USP flavors appropriate to stay here? They= do the SRH POP action. Best Regards, Zhenqiang Li ________________________________ li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) Date: 2019-09-25 02:30 To: spring@ietf.org CC: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org Subject: [spring] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-03.txt Hi all, We have just posted the split of SRv6 Network Programming. The SR endpoint and transit behaviors that perform SRH insertion are now un= der a new individual draft (draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-net-pgm-insertion). = This revision does not contain any other update. As mentioned last week, throughout the rest of the week we will push anothe= r update with a few functional updates (e.g. NH=3D59). Thank you, Pablo (on behalf of the authors). -----Original Message----- From: spring > on b= ehalf of "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > Reply to: "spring@ietf.org" > Date: Tuesday, 24 September 2019 at 20:23 To: "i-d-announce@ietf.org" > Cc: "spring@ietf.org" > Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-03= .txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG= of the IETF. Title : SRv6 Network Programming Authors : Clarence Filsfils Pablo Camarillo Garvia John Leddy Daniel Voyer Satoru Matsushima Zhenbin Li Filename : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-03.txt Pages : 42 Date : 2019-09-24 Abstract: This document describes the SRv6 network programming concept and its most basic functions. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-program= ming/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pr= ogramming-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-prog= ramming-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_BN7PR05MB569953ECE8CFD1AD3F04DC0EAE810BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pablo,

 

Now that T.insert and B.Insert have been removed, wh= at are the remaining use cases for USP and PSP?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      Ron

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 7:13 AM
To: li zhenqiang <li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com>; spring@ietf.org; = ipv6@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring= -srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network= -programming-03.txt

 

Hi Zhenqiang,

 

Can you clarify what is the issue with the PSP and U= SP flavors and how it is related to SRH insertion?

 

For example USP flavor removes the SRH at the last s= egment (the final destination of the IP packet), before proceeding with the= upper layer header processing.

 

Cheers,

Pablo.

 

From: li zhen= qiang <li_zhenqiang@hotmail.= com>
Date: Friday, 27 September 2019 at 10:41
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.= org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv= 6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network= -programming-03.txt

&n= bsp;

Hi Pabl= o and all,

&n= bsp;

Thank t= he authors for their efforts and quick reponse to the discussion in the lis= t.

Since t= he SRH insertion parts are now removed from the base srv6 network programmi= ng draft, are the PSP and USP flavors appropriate to stay here? They do the= SRH POP action.

&n= bsp;

Best Re= gards,

Zhenqia= ng Li

 <= o:p>

Date: 2019-09-25=  02:30

Subject: [spring= ] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-03.txt

Hi all,=

 <= o:p>

We have= just posted the split of SRv6 Network Programming.

The SR = endpoint and transit behaviors that perform SRH insertion are now under a n= ew individual draft (draft-filsfils-spring-srv6-net-pgm-insertion). This re= vision does not contain any other update.

 <= o:p>

As ment= ioned last week, throughout the rest of the week we will push another updat= e with a few functional updates (e.g. NH=3D59).

 <= o:p>

Thank y= ou,

Pablo (= on behalf of the authors).

 <= o:p>

 <= o:p>

-----Or= iginal Message-----

Reply t= o: "spring@ietf.org" <<= a href=3D"mailto:spring@ietf.org">spring@ietf.org>=

Date: T= uesday, 24 September 2019 at 20:23

Subject= : [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-03.txt

 <= o:p>

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;  A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Dra= fts directories.

 &= nbsp;  This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Netwo= rking WG of the IETF.

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;          Title &nbs= p;         : SRv6 Network Programmi= ng

 &= nbsp;          Authors &n= bsp;       : Clarence Filsfils

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;   Pablo Camarillo Garvia

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;   John Leddy

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;   Daniel Voyer

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;   Satoru Matsushima

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;   Zhenbin Li

 &= nbsp;  Filename        : draft-ietf= -spring-srv6-network-programming-03.txt

 &= nbsp;  Pages         &nbs= p; : 42

 &= nbsp;  Date          = ;  : 2019-09-24

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;  Abstract:

 &= nbsp;     This document describes the SRv6 network prog= ramming concept and its

 &= nbsp;     most basic functions.

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;  The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<= /span>

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;  There are also htmlized versions available at:

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;  A diff from the previous version is available at:

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;  Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time = of submission

 &= nbsp;  until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf= .org.

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;  Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

 &= nbsp; 

 &= nbsp;  _______________________________________________

 &= nbsp;  spring mailing list

 &= nbsp;  spring@ietf.org

 &= nbsp; 

 <= o:p>

_______= ________________________________________

spring = mailing list

--_000_BN7PR05MB569953ECE8CFD1AD3F04DC0EAE810BN7PR05MB5699namp_-- From nobody Fri Sep 27 17:28:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C16D120026 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5UNtDCVuXAJT for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 17:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 191DC12004E for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 17:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id q203so3466255qke.1 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 17:28:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=C+XH2hxIcR4GUhrfd9n2shqOUO3vu3e5nPPNwHu0k74=; b=bRL31+/KAb7/fyalUZ8OrwbwRNCn9vAnhSKJEkzDwJhgNF0xpg2+oWukCRKlxPtgCP B3vOLYP6wZWytzW7aiUpKzHvdf056hF3jwX4690a7CeUhKDtkdYivXXlhahBdsWNjMNh 8EqtT8KHR+Snx23znKPSLgara33VuRYjMoLJIYSZBwEuwBxf7w2Ip/TM9eInqjXfSHpT AF/DvFDr2ax/iGD6HlTc3KTJl8pGAIYoiF8xUI2ERfyMhUT7rEiFjCDX4I2OzUuSVd4C zIyY+AnTDPrfxszbFW6u3FPDajhpwmfqSsx3kCQVE61vWf6XiybzdMZGIEfuyMCP2UrO UDdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=C+XH2hxIcR4GUhrfd9n2shqOUO3vu3e5nPPNwHu0k74=; b=SV9LEH33230XkDWx9vE/lKTZx+vkX5lhBMkyN9CEPnrQHat867WgFaCGJVD3a5DXzd 2gJDiJZ3D6UGGVoxxGJQZPHhxoSZdFz1xwHj6ndYdMbXuYOnbJvZrBwkIoFwQ3J/PCYy 19Oty4DTfDrfzB+hhEKzNiSdhFjmr/tjGrfuT7gUKUNOyV0RScPTVzL9Wyeoy7a3ulCq 9a+odXZJEumpu9fTk2mF+fWZqFJn7dSon43K1CfsJpNghVP3GKav27Dkmi2Yvyi5LvjX lZxZ6NhqxoglBoy+I2OSmG9VT1AbFspooQSLDWt+piOQfmmfoGZBvK5ExgHdOTvR8g4D KdOA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXIj46RqdHvvRmpM+w1Gefx5QP2LWj4wMlpwOnqBgkzzOFrFGBz bEbITn2HwGmiduO6ecdM4N6nympRkPPukf/jUz3npA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwV5pdw/eQHNiT79pl7pzQCzCt/eXPypR2MF2ddlzxczIXBZHoZKu3NwTlZ8um+O0ROpBGfRUwq/zQtv5wg8AQ= X-Received: by 2002:a37:274e:: with SMTP id n75mr1587724qkn.134.1569630498209; Fri, 27 Sep 2019 17:28:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> <0613CA2A-E5A5-4D49-9F2B-A57CD9B702A0@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 02:28:09 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" , Jeff Tantsura , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Stewart Bryant , SPRING WG List , SING Team Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004647b10593921439" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 00:28:27 -0000 --0000000000004647b10593921439 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ron, While sitting and watching this very educational thread to enhance anyone linguistic skills why don't you just call your architecture as either SRc6 or SRs6 and move on ? Legend: c - compressed s - squeezed or shrank Best, Robert. PS. That is not to say that I suddenly think the proposal is overall sound :) --0000000000004647b10593921439 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

While sitting and watching this= very educational thread to enhance anyone linguistic skills why don't = you just call your architecture as either SRc6 or SRs6 and move on ?=C2=A0<= /div>

Legend:=C2=A0

c - compres= sed=C2=A0
s - squeezed or shrank=C2=A0

B= est,
Robert.

PS. That is not to say = that I suddenly think the proposal is overall sound :)=C2=A0

=
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Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHVcwZHuPajcK5w7kyDna3/5tWK0adBz4rA Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 00:35:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <156934935460.15603.11867492604510639688@ietfa.amsl.com>, <031BE952-7C37-4E4A-8F16-6038CB26C4A1@cisco.com>, , <498DEE4B-0119-4A9B-98FC-BBD0579F1E58@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.251.51.115] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d248c9e5841a4e0aba4e4aa613e1a8banokiasbellcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXS/ts4XTfnT3+sQedVFov5k7eyWrw8+57J Yv++9cwWv47vYrE4fuE3owOrx5TfG1k9HvecYfNYsuQnUwBzFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAldGz8HN zAVdW5krzp8/w9LAeGslcxcjB4eEgInE0+2aXYxcHEICx5kk9r7rY4Jw/jJKdE9fzALhbGKU mHfrClsXIycHm4CbxKRtu9hAEiICKxglJh6fxAQyilkgTeL2Nl0QU1ggVqJtvwtIuYhAnMT2 o1OYIWwjid/Xb4DZLAKqEmteXwfr5BWwkzixVQ9i1WUmiePLJjOB1HACjVnbeBCsnlFATOL7 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([fe80::c9d9:5faf:5aee:ee8d%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2305.017; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 14:25:53 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: Robert Raszuk CC: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" , Jeff Tantsura , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Stewart Bryant , SPRING WG List , SING Team Thread-Topic: =?iso-2022-jp?B?W3NwcmluZ10gU1ItTVBMUyBvdmVyIElQdjYbJEIhKRsoQg==?= Thread-Index: AdVyfXpR2Zy+FnKjRXStpDyUGRI2GwADhveAAEStigAAAB+XAAAOl5KAACLJ+gAADQ7MgAABdBAAAAukWqAAMasxgABPcgCQ Content-Class: Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 14:25:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> <0613CA2A-E5A5-4D49-9F2B-A57CD9B702A0@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; 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a0XozOk3HUlEMp3Aap99Tkq3P8+F8o8eVK45ssHkYtV9lrdc1YmDXE9N+BguFTogWYjsTrMOFwESMesXRuSNQw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR05MB4355 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-29_09:2019-09-25,2019-09-29 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909290163 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?iso-2022-jp?b?U1ItTVBMUyBvdmVyIElQdjYbJEIhKRsoQg==?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 14:26:28 -0000 --_000_BN7PR05MB56990F9D71C8355F312DC23AAE830BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I was thinking about SR-compressed-6. SRc6 is a nice abbreviation for that. If the WG agrees, I will update the drafts. Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:28 PM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; Jeff Tantsura ; Chengli (Cheng = Li) ; Stewart Bryant ; SPRI= NG WG List ; SING Team Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, While sitting and watching this very educational thread to enhance anyone l= inguistic skills why don't you just call your architecture as either SRc6 o= r SRs6 and move on ? Legend: c - compressed s - squeezed or shrank Best, Robert. PS. That is not to say that I suddenly think the proposal is overall sound = :) Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BN7PR05MB56990F9D71C8355F312DC23AAE830BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

I was thinking about SR-compressed-6. SRc6 is a nice= abbreviation for that.

 

If the WG agrees, I will update the drafts.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;  Ron

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:28 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@be= ll.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail= .com>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Stewart Bryant &= lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B

 

Hi Ron,

 

While sitting and watching this very educational thr= ead to enhance anyone linguistic skills why don't you just call your archit= ecture as either SRc6 or SRs6 and move on ? 

 

Legend: 

 

c - compressed 

s - squeezed or shrank 

 

Best,

Robert.

 

PS. That is not to say that I suddenly think the pro= posal is overall sound :) 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_BN7PR05MB56990F9D71C8355F312DC23AAE830BN7PR05MB5699namp_-- From nobody Sun Sep 29 07:56:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44161200D8 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 07:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cnMgDDFEe_Cr for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 07:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8750312004F for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 07:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id y144so5588827qkb.7 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 07:56:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+CT3SZZxDxYJ807jLFenpNA01bdmdfWTM9KJ7yqU/n8=; b=W3NJvu5movNcFIdu4cJOYMbPLr9PKyWHrSKB/3uIxJY1JYzGdgqMq4u+OJsW6/v20A GC6reqsOAiKSIb5HWkCWaxgcLZdeOwnDKwo2h0b1REvECBb8oSjHxs+7xT9GU8OPUDGx FiXlpzJ+1Uq93V60H4j5tczU0NGlW6siqHskglO8EoaMADuv8cw1wJ8OGFykgrnIuuPm cNwRvJMt3w3C4Y0VHoariDhdbd3sVtWu+IAknYiPFAWFXUEASIw0ZNeZhMK+EnMS6jV/ 1TlSWj+kvWKhEZCU4QumbvQcbXr57wWtjjSQxA31254TMShPK0/BV+cRkclWNtCdrLMP 6EDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+CT3SZZxDxYJ807jLFenpNA01bdmdfWTM9KJ7yqU/n8=; b=sUBDMtYZMOz+dq0hNsMjBBG8+R6W0ocOdWDWsHrlCXP0vXb5B0dXrvOCIV6CfNyuhX F2qPRNOior+xpXQrQHf57+KqZNVj0eaf26HiR+kdj9MJ1ph4qo9ZdXakpdUdZHbLtOnm CzRB31p4vK5W6rZDMmzZV3i5i6LpfbkMQ8Z+35LXQ8cFncyIkx8Mw7D5buC8GXC9uAjQ h6snFb//0JV76JCdeoBxQEr/uvJPbCB90+ATET0A+7rcmjD0jSEqiuVAmiPovod/24BA 5FqsyiBv0Bjj6jKdq6am4w/VGn6jrRKPc1pH5j7exhmGqWl4DbLr5369yT3jQFyrQ/vU 30wg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWp/F/rUp+ovYkLKJRMRas2MU8Z1vlPYfcEhm3gx9nwqPlAxQmP MM6vCZrVcjd2hGc1rOnrW9/CBFPKGJHnAD5+aIjhRw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwEwda37NUBMJePkgzcBiG1Tp3TVQCE2z0YDMGRfH7LoyKi4Gvw/WO20fAkTuymK9wwJKvWTAYPqyzRkdUPoGc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:2784:: with SMTP id n126mr14065550qkn.302.1569768996410; Sun, 29 Sep 2019 07:56:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3b7e474d-7462-4bc5-310c-6489516a0b1a@gmail.com> <4BB0E927-025D-4497-9DD1-0307FCBAFB97@bell.ca> <0613CA2A-E5A5-4D49-9F2B-A57CD9B702A0@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 16:56:27 +0200 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca" , Jeff Tantsura , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" , Stewart Bryant , SPRING WG List , SING Team Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006927930593b25394" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?utf-8?q?SR-MPLS_over_IPv6=EF=BC=9F?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 14:56:40 -0000 --0000000000006927930593b25394 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, You may also consider *SR-mapped-6* (SRm6) as it even better reflects the spirit of the proposal. Thx, R. On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 4:26 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > I was thinking about SR-compressed-6. SRc6 is a nice abbreviation for tha= t. > > > > If the WG agrees, I will update the drafts. > > > > Ron > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2019 8:28 PM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* Zafar Ali (zali) ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca < > daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Jeff Tantsura ; Chengli > (Cheng Li) ; Stewart Bryant < > stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; SPRING WG List ; SING Team < > s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=EF=BC=9F > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > While sitting and watching this very educational thread to enhance anyone > linguistic skills why don't you just call your architecture as either SRc= 6 > or SRs6 and move on ? > > > > Legend: > > > > c - compressed > > s - squeezed or shrank > > > > Best, > > Robert. > > > > PS. That is not to say that I suddenly think the proposal is overall soun= d > :) > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > --0000000000006927930593b25394 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,

You may also conside= r SR-mapped-6 (SRm6) as it even better reflects the spirit of the pr= oposal.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

On Sun, Sep 29, 201= 9 at 4:26 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

Robert,

=C2=A0

I was thinking about SR-compressed-6. SRc6 is a nice= abbreviation for that.

=C2=A0

If the WG agrees, I will update the drafts.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:28 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Jef= f Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Stewa= rt Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=EF=BC=9F

=C2=A0

Hi Ron,

=C2=A0

While sitting and watching this very educational thr= ead to enhance anyone linguistic skills why don't you just call your ar= chitecture as either SRc6 or SRs6 and move on ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Legend:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

c - compressed=C2=A0

s - squeezed or shrank=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best,

Robert.

=C2=A0

PS. That is not to say that I suddenly think the pro= posal is overall sound :)=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Ju= niper Business Use Only

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boundary="_000_BN7PR05MB56998CA659B64964B426EDA7AE820BN7PR05MB5699namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3d35592e-39fe-4a50-76f0-08d7457dbd88 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Sep 2019 08:11:04.7731 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: hOmt09PS19h7ivIY7lFMYq1B80TAoZOzApSGOLlDwEHIZFIqw7vCdUPzKMcmz8s7emPDYU72Vc76oUTfaiDNNA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR05MB4499 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-09-30_04:2019-09-25,2019-09-30 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=999 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1909300088 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] =?iso-2022-jp?b?U1ItTVBMUyBvdmVyIElQdjYbJEIhKRsoQg==?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 08:11:32 -0000 --_000_BN7PR05MB56998CA659B64964B426EDA7AE820BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, I like SR-mapped-6 (SRm6) even better. When spoken =1B$B!H=1B(BS-R-C-6=1B$B= !I=1B(B sounds too much like =1B$B!H=1B(BS-R-V-6=1B$B!I=1B(B. The two will = be confused. SRm6 won=1B$B!G=1B(Bt have that problem. = Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2019 10:56 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) ; EXT - daniel.bernier@bell.ca ; Jeff Tantsura ; Chengli (Cheng = Li) ; Stewart Bryant ; SPRI= NG WG List ; SING Team Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, You may also consider SR-mapped-6 (SRm6) as it even better reflects the spi= rit of the proposal. Thx, R. On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 4:26 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Robert, I was thinking about SR-compressed-6. SRc6 is a nice abbreviation for that. If the WG agrees, I will update the drafts. Ron From: Robert Raszuk > Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:28 PM To: Ron Bonica > Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) >; EXT - daniel.= bernier@bell.ca >; Jeff Tantsura >; Chengli (Cheng Li) >; Stewart Bryant >; SPRING WG List >; SING Team > Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B Hi Ron, While sitting and watching this very educational thread to enhance anyone l= inguistic skills why don't you just call your architecture as either SRc6 o= r SRs6 and move on ? Legend: c - compressed s - squeezed or shrank Best, Robert. PS. That is not to say that I suddenly think the proposal is overall sound = :) Juniper Business Use Only Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BN7PR05MB56998CA659B64964B426EDA7AE820BN7PR05MB5699namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

I like SR-mapped-6 (SRm6) even better. When spoken = =1B$B!H=1B(BS-R-C-6=1B$B!I=1B(B sounds too much like =1B$B!H=1B(BS-R-V-6=1B= $B!I=1B(B. The two will be confused. SRm6 won=1B$B!G=1B(Bt have that proble= m.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;    Ron

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2019 10:56 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@be= ll.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail= .com>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Stewart Bryant &= lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B

 

Hi Ron,

 

You may also consider SR-mapped-6 (SRm6) as i= t even better reflects the spirit of the proposal. 

 

Thx,

R.

 

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 4:26 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net= > wrote:

Robert,

 

I was thinking about SR-compressed-6. SRc6 is a nice abbreviation = for that.

 

If the WG agrees, I will update the drafts.

 

           =              Ro= n

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 8:28 PM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com>; EXT - daniel.bernier@= bell.ca <daniel.bernier@bell.ca>; Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>; Chengli (Cheng Li) <chengli13@huawei.com>; Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>= ; SPRING WG List <s= pring@ietf.org>; SING Team <s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] SR-MPLS over IPv6=1B$B!)=1B(B

 

Hi Ron,

 

While sitting and watching this very educational thread to enhance= anyone linguistic skills why don't you just call your architecture as eith= er SRc6 or SRs6 and move on ? 

 

Legend: 

 

c - compressed 

s - squeezed or shrank 

 

Best,

Robert.

 

PS. That is not to say that I suddenly think the proposal is overa= ll sound :) 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

 

Juniper Business Use Only

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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bc8656f4-73e3-4fc2-5be0-08d745ecc119 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Sep 2019 21:25:45.1756 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: D0rClEFesL+AvSaFkrLKX3+CQb71TKbN/XACM262N/s4tp2+qcAJQoJpyroKd6Uu7qS6ltIUQqgpgGzrepn7DspcbabEf46LUYoy2gQ09Tk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB5644 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Regaining focus X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 21:25:49 -0000 RGVhciBXRw0KDQpJIHRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgYWxsIHRoZSBpbnRlcmVzdGluZyBkaXNjdXNzaW9u cyB3aGljaCBoYXBwZW5lZCBvdmVyIHRoZSANCnBhc3QgbW9udGguDQpUaGVzZSB3ZXJlIHRyaWdn ZXJlZCBieSB0aGUgZW1lcmdlbmNlIG9mIHZhcmlvdXMgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBkb2N1bWVudHMgDQpw cm9wb3Npbmcgd2F5cyB0byBhY2hpZXZlIHNtYWxsZXIgU0lEcyBidXQgaGF2ZSBldm9sdmVkIHRv IGJlIGEgDQpjb21wYXJpc29uIGJldHdlZW4gU1J2NiBhbmQgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgc29sdXRpb24g d2hpY2ggcHJvcG9zZXMgbmV3IEVILg0KDQpJIHNlZSB0aGUgaW50ZW5zaXR5IG9mIHRoZXNlIGRp c2N1c3Npb25zIGlzIGdvaW5nIGRvd24gYSBiaXQuIFRoZSB0aW1lIA0KaXMgcmlnaHQgZm9yIFNQ UklORyB0byByZWZvY3VzLiBJIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdGhlIFNQUklORyBXRyB0byBicmluZyB0byAN CmNvbXBsZXRpb24gaXRzIFNSdjYgaXRlbXMuDQoNCkF0IHNvbWUgcG9pbnQgaW4gdGltZSBpbiB0 aGUgZnV0dXJlLCBTUFJJTkcgbWlnaHQgaGF2ZSB0byBkZWNpZGUgd2hldGhlciANCmFsdGVybmF0 aXZlcyB0byBTUnY2IHNob3VsZCBiZSBpbnZlc3RpZ2F0ZWQsIGFuZCBpZiBzbywgd2h5Lg0KDQpN YXJ0aW4sDQphcyBBRCBmb3IgU1BSSU5HDQo=
  • SRv6 is not nearly so close to standardization as some would claim. If i= t were, last week=E2=80=99s heated email exchanges would not have occurred

It=E2=80=99= s not true. All discussions didn=E2=80=99t attribute to SRH encap itself.
  • Some customers have identifi= ed a need that SRv6+ satisfies and SRv6 does not

As one of your customers, I n= ever claim that thing.

--s= atoru

2019/09/10 22:30=E3=80=81Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.ne= t@dmarc.ietf.org>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
=

Jim,

 

Please accept this comment in the spirit which it is i= ntended, between two old friends.

 

It doesn=E2=80=99t matter if there are a million exis= ting SRv6 deployments. The following is undeniable:

 

  • SRv6 is not nearly so close to standardization as some would claim. If i= t were, last week=E2=80=99s heated email exchanges would not have occurred
  • Some customers have identified a need that SRv6+ satisf= ies and SRv6 does not

 

So, why would anyone want to suppress the new work. I= have heard the following arguments:

 

  1. New work would overtax the WG
  2. A new solution would c= onfuse the market place

 

The first argument is dubious. We are talking about a= few very short documents that are careful never to stray from IPv6 orthodox= y. As always, participation is voluntary.

 

The second argument is downright suspicious. Network o= perators are intelligent people who are not easily confused.

 

The marketplace doesn=E2=80=99t need to be protected f= rom new solutions. Those who claim that it does may want to explain why.

 

         = ;            &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;             R= on

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only=

From: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 8:59 AM
To: Sander Steffann <sander@= steffann.nl>; Zafar Ali (zali) <= zali@cisco.com>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.c= om>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; SPRING WG List <spr= ing@ietf.org>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spr= ing WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

I don=E2=80=99t think anyone is trying to make themse= lves look superior. Presumably the IETF wants to build technologies that are= actually deployed in real networks =E2=80=93 it is clear that there are mul= tiple publicly announced SRv6 deployments (I can think of at least 5) and from what I can see from the numerous email thread= s there are several operators stating that SRv6 satisfies their needs (and t= his is based on real deployment knowledge not theoretical technical purity) a= nd no other additional encapsulation technique is necessary.

 

My .2c

 

Jim

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sander Steffann
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2019 1:22 PM
To: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco= .com>
Cc: Rob Shakir <robjs@google.c= om>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@ju= niper.net>; SPRING WG List <spr= ing@ietf.org>; Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; Andrew Alston <Andrew= .Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spr= ing WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.)

 

 

= [ZA] Please refer to section 3 of SRv6 deployment draft, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-sr= v6-deployment-status-01#section-3. It provides some details on the Significant industry collaborat= ion that led to SRv6 standardization. SRv6 standardization went through the rigorous IETF process (some may say much more rigorous than typically done at IETF).  

 

Throwing massive resources at something, sending many= emails and creating many tickets don't represent "significant industry coll= aboration". They can equally represent ratholing, endless discussions and ma= ssive disagreement.

 

Stop trying to make yourself look superior. That has n= o place in the IETF. Statement like that are pathetic in my view. Pleas= e focus on technical excellence instead.

 

Cheers,

Sander

 

________= _______________________________________
spring mailing list<= /span>
spring@ietf.org
https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
= = --Apple-Mail-72545D64-6589-4670-8FCC-12C61EC5591C-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 07:29:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB2812012E for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:29:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ATgFHfxzg4mf for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FAF912013B for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5E0E4C; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:29:22 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1568125759; bh=cPdziOVKkdl+FhpuUfJ o8cNm/3rWT5LNnwCNDtzxY64=; b=AY9P9rCZucGe1ZN3lNtpo4h20vj0e4gfQWv kG2nPWRK9SsAU2Tfz4NiRutSc7YDAIX8mQe6Th8IyWK6/avQNQ4tIRJ98BvgzK13 Xe8wHBWlxBZaoQA+Pa45q0ygYPHIfhTUNq7oQDUmmxNxj1dytsiyaDKprEaZALH0 zOdvfxAE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id okAYy3VtXvJN; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:29:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:3da0:1927:e392:6f34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF7D53C; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:29:18 +0200 (CEST) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_823E2CD4-6F4F-4535-B826-6726E603DAA0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:29:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> Cc: Ron Bonica , James Guichard , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Rob Shakir , SPRING WG List , Shraddha Hegde , Andrew Alston To: "Voyer, Daniel" References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:29:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_823E2CD4-6F4F-4535-B826-6726E603DAA0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, > That was my point in the email thread =E2=80=9CRegaining Focus on SRv6 = and SRv6+=E2=80=9D; >=20 > =E2=80=A2 SRH has been around since 5 years with now 22 versions = the last call is done, it=E2=80=99s on its way to become an RFC > =E2=80=A2 ISIS/SRv6 is out there since 2015 with lots of = iterations >=20 > After all these years, why starting something new now and not finish = first what is already started ? Because many problems are identified in the current work, and I realised = I don't like what I see. > If there is more needs/requirements, why wasn=E2=80=99t it raised = while we were riding on SRH 2014-2019+, and net png ? It's not needs/requirements, it's mostly the lack of a KISS approach > Maybe as an IETFer/Vendor I'm an operator > =E2=80=9Creal deployment=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t seem to impress you, Please elaborate about the real deployment. Where was it deployed? In = what kind of networks? On what scale? For which use cases? > but it allows to cycle back and tweak, optimize and enhance 5 years of = work (ex.: uSID which is a building block of the overall SRv6 = architecture. I agree. But after 5 years of (re)engineering) it's time to step back = and look at the solution again with fresh eyes. = https://hackernoon.com/delete-your-code-c5d2dc59f1ff > If we can finish what we started, then we can start something new =E2=80= =93 such as your proposal. I don't like the design of the current solution, and you seem to suggest = that I have to stall work on what I would like until you have what you = would like *. That doesn't work for me. Cheers, Sander *: Especially with the current attitude/language in the drafts that = seems to promote the current work as the only true solution, and = everything else as secondary. That might not be the intention, but that = is how it appears. --Apple-Mail=_823E2CD4-6F4F-4535-B826-6726E603DAA0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VC3eloaasvH0nE1oC0DsP4kE7kFAl13sz4ACgkQoC0DsP4k E7knlQgAlKveVpkrBC0WWVvOWtbrOZ03DmCPE5nR9IjKcDAz6sTzx+u6/RKun6h8 KXaGieEeQZqut7gj2M9PoWfCgT3YcA21QndJIhf2szg8mJij6r9xshR0wtbvAAJr 22IWEGfqvP2HYfgU1vyqW4hm+tiH5QVzDlvDusV1SkwiwogKbBdCWMJ+Sdml7QFu HsO2EcZPLbMuukBF18dmwIfheg39n6PKIgrnfd4qHDwwhToNawtL9A7zq0VFksKZ W2zhzm75Taf8TJELSGu47WMAxr5F4iMWZyytVa/YzNcm8KqCJBGgaiHKAZBRDtX7 hfHm0ob53hSsJik7Nv9rLKLMRpHhTw== =Scbm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_823E2CD4-6F4F-4535-B826-6726E603DAA0-- From nobody Tue Sep 10 07:37:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CE012013C for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:37:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ImUbhh8VX4az for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x443.google.com (mail-pf1-x443.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::443]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FD0212008A for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x443.google.com with SMTP id x127so11640362pfb.7 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:37:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=bTGFyZTRyAJb3+ePowcDCTKKTBifJxjTUCWKKV+7VJY=; b=CpE3HoMtCdpwxgEInb1G3niT+1MofN+SY0orCmjPtu1R59sfppdrExSn5AiyK9n8js +ly1TNwe7gf3Ff5PXlmlaUlj3xAHk/g3IQT7sc+RawpMsw6q2l3Nq+mMJbA+HXrI9D+2 p6nKMWDaUnpEPy09t+rhrhED2ep90Y2oVWUJtVywfMvvpCDJ7N5aqdnW1Jgdl3ciIXCb MOAFFrN4Oyp8oZyBb0wveihRWPA2Qa2gi93chc2cmCo8K2rLdIrt+auRrea671nuy8B5 qK06nwocXKDIACNHEnUsurVCEmGR1Ox4r8Ub8Ebf6rQxCurXjUzupkN5yIXTK+oDYdWr vhzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=bTGFyZTRyAJb3+ePowcDCTKKTBifJxjTUCWKKV+7VJY=; b=bX/mVuwCn5/Q380qedDha6c4mpy6bu+LBtSbf132vAC0asmDZi5Q6SvRyo9ptCpZil uUW9Y6FOeQVMbjnZRiuJS/LeOtoC/b9i+vIZQ+VJ27tSI/xBkrNMjiBJp0GNKJlDDZzV xubYaxppvyXFWh4n/mpJfQqeef6QWvy1Y9CdED95go4UUrH1BMFhkiKKQUI3RdkWPpae V9iSMe22SWm7yAXmAxfDwE4b8+xUUhyrhpM88sjf3yRSYnutVR4NHtDYtsEcEGygkiBu nU5itRI5YShxxjUC09Z31TtupQJNILfLMOpXaaFMIi8hk1tPbZySuZf6ViFjXGI9ytGf BCyA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW8eRbyM5lW7bKsPqpi/0LHBnIWG88Xf/SBEBS2WT3pC2D/Hg0W nGRE6ou9tZVmbb9G4ANxSaQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxP8aYvqvT42wLadRHB6mTCBNxeyLyTWK6cAEFJqcrNOVR/IVcmTpcY2swie+Rg/FK5MSlHcg== X-Received: by 2002:a62:2f84:: with SMTP id v126mr19854482pfv.167.1568126270720; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2400:2411:8900::e859:9f80:b515:640f? ([2400:2411:8900:0:e859:9f80:b515:640f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r10sm2520534pfh.1.2019.09.10.07.37.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Satoru Matsushima X-Mailer: iPad Mail (16G77) In-Reply-To: <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 23:37:48 +0900 Cc: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> To: Sander Steffann Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:37:55 -0000 Hi, If you say you are an operator, and ask us to disclose on where, for what, s= cale and use case, please describe yours at first in very detail. thanks, --satoru 2019/09/10 23:29=E3=80=81Sander Steffann =E3=81=AE=E3=83= =A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: > Hi, >=20 >> That was my point in the email thread =E2=80=9CRegaining Focus on SRv6 an= d SRv6+=E2=80=9D; >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 SRH has been around since 5 years with now 22 versions the l= ast call is done, it=E2=80=99s on its way to become an RFC >> =E2=80=A2 ISIS/SRv6 is out there since 2015 with lots of iterations >>=20 >> After all these years, why starting something new now and not finish firs= t what is already started ? >=20 > Because many problems are identified in the current work, and I realised I= don't like what I see. >=20 >> If there is more needs/requirements, why wasn=E2=80=99t it raised while w= e were riding on SRH 2014-2019+, and net png ? >=20 > It's not needs/requirements, it's mostly the lack of a KISS approach >=20 >> Maybe as an IETFer/Vendor >=20 > I'm an operator >=20 >> =E2=80=9Creal deployment=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t seem to impress you, >=20 > Please elaborate about the real deployment. Where was it deployed? In what= kind of networks? On what scale? For which use cases? >=20 >> but it allows to cycle back and tweak, optimize and enhance 5 years of wo= rk (ex.: uSID which is a building block of the overall SRv6 architecture. >=20 > I agree. But after 5 years of (re)engineering) it's time to step back and l= ook at the solution again with fresh eyes. https://hackernoon.com/delete-you= r-code-c5d2dc59f1ff >=20 >> If we can finish what we started, then we can start something new =E2=80=93= such as your proposal. >=20 > I don't like the design of the current solution, and you seem to suggest t= hat I have to stall work on what I would like until you have what you would l= ike *. That doesn't work for me. >=20 > Cheers, > Sander >=20 > *: Especially with the current attitude/language in the drafts that seems t= o promote the current work as the only true solution, and everything else as= secondary. That might not be the intention, but that is how it appears. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Tue Sep 10 07:42:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 152F112013F for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:42:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ferNKFEUm2fg for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FE8612008A for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:42:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id v11so20938230qto.13 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:42:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CR+DPSRFzPNKnr/JdRH3P8cz1054l60uTUjD71OuS5k=; b=IutWA5x1RiWkFixFKN2wtQ4PkcWAlCz5mQGZbEsQ/w6altwXm90bO3dUE2TeHAi0mH 9xqSuowElZf61MAMzQ8Q8HQk7K2nObT9Bt7MOnwzP8LTimVr5E3vfRcw496n1VF7AgPL tj7zvRWPDHAX8OZPrTSZgTlZAm94R0FjV/Rbe3P7vSkiJklj6AMwnwZCghQPM9eEnGKa /TjN5IoIjS+T86DyTr9zd+yiA9VpmqCCnMLUzDIA5eS/MdRuN5eMiz+KtuzBo6rURn6W fRplfVenE3x8kanI6vv6fWeqHeE482/Kv2VqCXVBaWPad1nHbh0VsvUSw5qAV61QSprM taVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CR+DPSRFzPNKnr/JdRH3P8cz1054l60uTUjD71OuS5k=; b=NJ2N55ccaqoOFcvAdQMF+SvRk9Jv/dWNinaDE9Z8mfVIGCeXuXLTg7Rcrz7WrBDghN PPjaIIDMgJdJEuoSQpSRIAp9hf9N5UKXuN5uXtppAn6kBXFyR45eE0mve/oL2RJZLqaf 8b/+8JNYwTyaVfjaX/lWb8qQ710fKudGt0LcoIZnV5e9dAct0QEtzkBcuZXD4512XjAJ fURokvWqCJB3cjy7+FmW+fge7y/ZpHsQBpGO36vBTAIV7yiiVsFLnwrqgnkVrVK1/pRg /BhXnQIqtEz2glOfVvtaihGBgHRyFH0N28asYpkPYTe9EwfZv/B/R/boZ7L9f5jf+q5m m7wg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU/mmHyR0DAwvtinkhjL8f5f0pXZF4nUE0TY7hPksnhOtXoVi+g b1DBEctCiNwwpnrzQgFvuMVBsn12Lcme2Cl6LP0BrA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqztdtqK9fzCWijcn+GL7qLXBxlEwMe8Al+aqojMNONsH9DGq+D2ZCuBj1QC42IWgzGTPuNReV86O7gP90+3w48= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:9082:: with SMTP id p2mr18796871qvp.197.1568126530076; Tue, 10 Sep 2019 07:42:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <60A84B32-D306-45DE-B4E2-F68AB570F951@bell.ca> <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: <91AEC553-4E89-49C5-9057-DB0B083C0392@steffann.nl> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 16:41:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: "Voyer, Daniel" , Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , Andrew Alston , James Guichard , Shraddha Hegde , Rob Shakir , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c9dd0a059233e8d3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Going back to the original question for the Spring WG (was: Re: Beyond SRv6.) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 14:42:14 -0000 --000000000000c9dd0a059233e8d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Sander, Because many problems are identified in the current work > Please kindly enumerate technical problems which got identified. It will be actually very helpful list. It's not needs/requirements, it's mostly the lack of a KISS approach > Not all vendors are falling into the last "S" category Please elaborate about the real deployment. Where was it deployed? In what > kind of networks? On what scale? For which use cases? > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status-01 I don't like the design of the current solution, and you seem to suggest > that I have to stall work on what I would like until you have what you > would like *. That doesn't work for me. No one is stating that. It is your network and you can deploy and develop anything you like. But IETF mission is to make sure you have interoperable services and so far for all SRv6+ related draft this is all single vendor. Sorry but linux code does not count. So do you think that IETF should support and work on single vendor's wall garden now ? Very interesting .... I think Juniper reps are actually taking a very risky path ... In fact if IETF would accept the work - even as experimental - they can only deploy it in single Juniper shops. So those customers with dual or multi vendor will have no choice but get rid of Juniper gear. Cheers, R. --000000000000c9dd0a059233e8d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Sander,

Becaus= e many problems are identified in the current work
Please kindly enumerate technical problems which got identified= . It will be actually very helpful list.=C2=A0

It's not needs/requirements, = it's mostly the lack of a KISS approach

=
Not all vendors are falling into the last "S" category
=

Please ela= borate about the real deployment. Where was it deployed? In what kind of ne= tworks? On what scale? For which use cases?

=

I don't like the design of the current solu= tion, and you seem to suggest that I have to stall work on what I would lik= e until you have what you would like *. That doesn't work for me.

No one is stating that. It is your network and y= ou can deploy and develop anything you like.=C2=A0

But IETF mission is to make sure you have interoperable services and so fa= r for all SRv6+ related draft this is all single vendor. Sorry but linux co= de does not count.=C2=A0

So do you think that IETF= should support and work on single vendor's wall garden now ? Very inte= resting ....=C2=A0

I think Juniper reps are actual= ly taking a very risky path ... In fact if IETF would accept the work - eve= n as experimental - they can only deploy it in single Juniper shops. So tho= se customers with dual or multi vendor will have no choice but get rid of J= uniper gear.=C2=A0

Cheers,
R.
= =C2=A0