From nobody Wed Jan 5 00:09:04 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2F33A07FD; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 00:09:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: bruno.decraene@orange.com, martin.vigoureux@nokia.com, spring-chairs@ietf.org, spring@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 7.41.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <164137014168.21820.11528702659879796495@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 00:09:02 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] spring - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 113 X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 08:09:02 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Bruno Decraene, a Chair of the spring working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Source Packet Routing in Networking Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Bruno Decraene Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): unspecified Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair conflict: sfc lisp Technology overlap: 6man mpls lsr idr pce rtgwg teas People who must be present: Joel M. Halpern Jim Guichard Bruno Decraene Martin Vigoureux Shuping Peng Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Jan 5 02:38:31 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49EE3A07BA for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 02:38:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jZGr9bmefRFM for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 02:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::31]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C9403A07B9 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 02:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 499) id 80753119C8; Wed, 5 Jan 2022 02:38:21 -0800 (PST) To: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org From: RFC Errata System Cc: yuyarin@yuyarin.net, cf@cisco.com, pcamaril@cisco.com, john@leddy.net, daniel.voyer@bell.ca, satoru.matsushima@g.softbank.co.jp, lizhenbin@huawei.com, spring@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20220105103821.80753119C8@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 02:38:21 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: Subject: [spring] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8986 (6809) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2022 10:38:29 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC8986, "Segment Routing over IPv6 (SRv6) Network Programming". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid6809 -------------------------------------- Type: Editorial Reported by: Yuya Kawakami Section: 4.10 Original Text ------------- When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End.DX2 SID Corrected Text -------------- When N receives a packet whose IPv6 DA is S and S is a local End.DX2V SID Notes ----- seems editorial error Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC8986 (draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-28) -------------------------------------- Title : Segment Routing over IPv6 (SRv6) Network Programming Publication Date : February 2021 Author(s) : C. Filsfils, Ed., P. Camarillo, Ed., J. Leddy, D. Voyer, S. Matsushima, Z. Li Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : Source Packet Routing in Networking Area : Routing Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Mon Jan 10 22:54:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11C03A1AF4; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:54:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1woF4wlXuDzd; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 22:54:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from h3cspam01-ex.h3c.com (smtp.h3c.com [60.191.123.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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"gengxuesong@huawei.com" , "xiejingrong@huawei.com" , "lizhenbin@huawei.com" CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "pim@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: About draft-geng-msr6-traffic-engineering Thread-Index: AdgF+z7q21NOBthfSz2qsNh9/6/AIg== Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 06:53:33 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.76.35] x-sender-location: DAG2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_fdb76c66e4c5444d8d52ba9060dc239dh3ccom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-DNSRBL: X-MAIL: h3cspam01-ex.h3c.com 20B6rYJK064537 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] About draft-geng-msr6-traffic-engineering X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 06:54:18 -0000 --_000_fdb76c66e4c5444d8d52ba9060dc239dh3ccom_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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Hi authors:

 

I read the draft-geng-msr6-traf= fic-engineering, and several suggestions and questions are following:<= /o:p>

 

 

1. written error<= /span>

 

8.1.  =
MSR6 Illustration: End.RL
 =

   In n=
ode A, the packet is encapsulated the packet with an IPv6 header=

   carr=
ying an MRH.  The segment list in the MRH is as follows.  The
   dest=
ination address of the IPv6 header is the 1st SID in the segment=

   list=
, which is the local SID of node A.  Based on the End.RL behavior=

   defi=
ned in section 5.1, the packet is replicated to =
2 (Replication
   Numb=
er+1=3D1+1=3D2) packets.  In the 1st packet, the Segment Left =
is set
   to 2=
 and DA is replaced by Segment List[2]; In the 2n=
d packet, the
   Segment Left is set to 4 and DA is replaced by Segment List=
[4]; The
   pack=
ets are routed to the node B and node C respectively.

 


     &=
nbsp;            &nb=
sp;    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=A1=B7 Should be



           &n=
bsp; In the 2nd packet, the Segment Left is set to 3 and DA is replaced by Segment List[3]


 


 


2=
. two  Suggestion:


 


5.  MSR6 Endpoint Behaviors


5.1.  End.RL:
 MSR6 Endpoint Replication List<=
/o:p>


 


When the packet i=
s received by an Replication Endpoint and the DA of


   this=
 packet is a local SID with the function of End.RL, the packet


   will=
 be replicated based on the "replication number".  The DA of=
 the


   1st =
replicated packet is replaced by the SL=3D"pointer" and the value=



   of S=
egment Left is set to "pointer"; the DA of the 2nd replicated


   pack=
et is replaced by the SL=3D"pointer +1" and the value of Segment


   Left=
 is set to "pointer+1". =
; The packet is sent out based on the


   upda=
ted DA.  Repeat the operation untill all the replicated packets


   are =
sent out.


     &=
nbsp;      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>


1)


  The SL is increasing in prcedure description and the psedou-code. &nb=
sp;


 &=
nbsp;The description mode of SL' decreasing will be consistent with SRv6 ar=
chitecture and understandable=



 


2)


   Pseudo-code depicts how to process replicated packet.



 &=
nbsp; The original packet also needs to be sent to the downstream node=
, and the procedure is different from replicated packets, especially with E=
nd.RL.X SID



 &=
nbsp; So suggest to add description about the original packet in pseud=
o-code


 


 


3. Pseudo codes and illustra=
tion are conflict


 


S01. When an MRH =
is processed {


   S02.=
   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0 or Replic=
ation Number=3D=3DPointer=3D=3D0) {


   S03.=
      Stop processing the MRH, and proceed to proc=
ess the next


   =
;             h=
eader in the packet, whose type is identified by


   =
;             t=
he Next Header field in the routing header.


 


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:A1 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:1 |  P:3  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:A2 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:0 |  P:5  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:B1 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:1 |  P:0  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:B2 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:0 |  P:0 |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:C1 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:1 |  P:0  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:C2 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:0 |  P:0  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


 


In the =
Illustration, B2's Rp-Nm and pointer are 0,  B will stop processing MR=
H based on pseudo-code.


In addi=
tion, USD flavor should be added to B1=A1=A2B2=A1=
=A2C1=A1=A2C2


   =



 


 


4. Question about mixed use =
of End.RL and End.RL.X


 


  Suppose A allocates a End.RL, B allocates End.RL.X B1 associated to D=
  and End.RL.X B2 associated to E


 C=
 allocates two End.RL.X SIDs respectively assciated to F and G.<=
/span>


  =
The multicast tree is composed with End.RL and End.RL.X SIDS.



&n=
bsp;


  =
Does this scenario need to be considered? And It will be great to add a ill=
ustration about that to document.


&n=
bsp;


   =
;             &=
nbsp;  +---+


   =
;             &=
nbsp; +--| D |


   =
;         +---+  =
 B1  +---+


   =
;       +--| B |----|

   =
;       | +---+   B2&n=
bsp; +---+


   =
;   +---+  |      =
; +--| E |


  R----- | A=
 |----|         +---+=



   =
;  +---+   |      =
; +--| F |


   =
;       |  +---+   C1 =
+---+


   =
;        +--| C |----|


   =
;         +---+  =
 C2 +---+


   =
;            &n=
bsp; +--| G |


   =
;            &n=
bsp;   +---+


 


 


 


 


 


Lihao


H3C


l=
ihao@h3c.com


ww=
w.h3c.com

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by phone or email immediately and delete it! --_000_fdb76c66e4c5444d8d52ba9060dc239dh3ccom_-- From nobody Tue Jan 11 22:47:40 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 694FB3A0A26; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:47:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PDUZCMuwFutL; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 22:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with 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Hi Liha= o,

&n= bsp;

Thanks = for reviewing the document and give comments. Please find feedback inline.

Some co= mments will be addressed in the next version.

&n= bsp;

Best

Xuesong=

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;

From: Lihao [mailto:lihao@h3c.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2022 2:54 PM
To: Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong) <gengxuesong@huawei.com>; Xieji= ngrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@h= uawei.com>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; pim@ietf.org
Subject: About draft-geng-msr6-traffic-engineering=

 

Hi authors:

 

I read the draft-geng-msr6-traf= fic-engineering, and several suggestions and questions are following:<= /o:p>

 

 

1. written error<= /span>

 

8.1.  =
MSR6 Illustration: End.RL
 =

   In n=
ode A, the packet is encapsulated the packet with an IPv6 header=

   carr=
ying an MRH.  The segment list in the MRH is as follows.  The
   dest=
ination address of the IPv6 header is the 1st SID in the segment=

   list=
, which is the local SID of node A.  Based on the End.RL behavior=

   defi=
ned in section 5.1, the packet is replicated to =
2 (Replication
   Numb=
er+1=3D1+1=3D2) packets.  In the 1st packet, the Segment Left =
is set
   to 2=
 and DA is replaced by Segment List[2]; In the 2n=
d packet, the
   Segment Left is set to 4 and DA is replaced by Segment List=
[4]; The
   pack=
ets are routed to the node B and node C respectively.

 


     &=
nbsp;            &nb=
sp;    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=A1=B7 Should be



           &n=
bsp; In the 2nd packet, the Segment Left is set to 3 and DA is replaced by Segment List[3]


&n=
bsp;


[Xueson=
g] Thank you for pointing this out.


&n=
bsp;


 


2=
. two  Suggestion:


 


5.  MSR6 Endpoint Behaviors


5.1.  End.RL:
 MSR6 Endpoint Replication List<=
/o:p>


 


When the packet i=
s received by an Replication Endpoint and the DA of


   this=
 packet is a local SID with the function of End.RL, the packet


   will=
 be replicated based on the "replication number".  The DA of=
 the


   1st =
replicated packet is replaced by the SL=3D"pointer" and the value=



   of S=
egment Left is set to "pointer"; the DA of the 2nd replicated


   pack=
et is replaced by the SL=3D"pointer +1" and the value of Segment


   Left=
 is set to "pointer+1". =
; The packet is sent out based on the


   upda=
ted DA.  Repeat the operation untill all the replicated packets


   are =
sent out.


     &=
nbsp;      =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>


1)


  The SL is increasing in prcedure description and the psedou-code. &nb=
sp;


 &=
nbsp;The description mode of SL' decreasing will be consistent with SRv6 ar=
chitecture and understandable=



&n=
bsp;


[Xueson=
g] You=A1=AFre right. Decreasing SL is easier to be understood.



&n=
bsp;


2)


   Pseudo-code depicts how to process replicated packet.



 &=
nbsp; The original packet also needs to be sent to the downstream node=
, and the procedure is different from replicated packets, especially with E=
nd.RL.X SID



 &=
nbsp; So suggest to add description about the original packet in pseud=
o-code


&n=
bsp;


[Xueson=
g](If I understand the question right)The behavior in the ingress node is s=
imilar to the behavior in the downstream replication nodes, only based on t=
he type of the SID.



For exa=
mple, if A is the ingress node and supposed to replicate the packet to B an=
d C. The first parsed SID in the segment list will be the local SID of node=
 A and the function TYPE is End.RL; If
 A is the ingress node and supposed to replicate the packet and sent them o=
ut through A1 and A2. The first parsed SID in the segment list will be the =
local SID of node A and the function TYPE is End.RL.X pointing to A1.



&n=
bsp;


&n=
bsp;


 


3. Pseudo codes and illustra=
tion are conflict


 


S01. When an MRH =
is processed {


   S02.=
   If (Segments Left =3D=3D 0 or Replic=
ation Number=3D=3DPointer=3D=3D0) {


   S03.=
      Stop processing the MRH, and proceed to proc=
ess the next


   =
;             h=
eader in the packet, whose type is identified by


   =
;             t=
he Next Header field in the routing header.


 


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:A1 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:1 |  P:3  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:A2 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:0 |  P:5  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:B1 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:1 |  P:0  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:B2 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:0 |  P:0 |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:C1 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:1 |  P:0  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


   =
;  |  Loc:C2 | Fun:End.RL.X| Rp-Nm:0 |  P:0  |


   =
;  +-----------------------------------------+


 


In the =
Illustration, B2's Rp-Nm and pointer are 0,  B will stop processing MR=
H based on pseudo-code.


&n=
bsp;


[Xueson=
g] I can=A1=AFt see the problem here. B will stop processing MRH and start =
to parse the next header.


&n=
bsp;


In addi=
tion, USD flavor should be added to B1=A1=A2B2=A1=
=A2C1=A1=A2C2


   =



[Xuesong] Yes=
. We will consider the flavor in the following versions. Not only USD, for =
example =A1=B0BUD Node=A1=B1 may need a dedicated flavor
 .


 


4. Question about mixed use =
of End.RL and End.RL.X


 


  Suppose A allocates a End.RL, B allocates End.RL.X B1 associated to D=
  and End.RL.X B2 associated to E


 C=
 allocates two End.RL.X SIDs respectively assciated to F and G.<=
/span>


  =
The multicast tree is composed with End.RL and End.RL.X SIDS.



&n=
bsp;


  =
Does this scenario need to be considered? And It will be great to add a ill=
ustration about that to document.


&n=
bsp;


   =
;             &=
nbsp;  +---+


   =
;             &=
nbsp; +--| D |


   =
;         +---+  =
 B1  +---+


   =
;       +--| B |----|

   =
;       | +---+   B2&n=
bsp; +---+


   =
;   +---+  |      =
; +--| E |


  R----- | A=
 |----|         +---+=



   =
;  +---+   |      =
; +--| F |


   =
;       |  +---+   C1 =
+---+


   =
;        +--| C |----|


   =
;         +---+  =
 C2 +---+


   =
;            &n=
bsp; +--| G |


   =
;            &n=
bsp;   +---+


 


 


[Xueson=
g] Mixed deployment should be considered. In order to avoid bringing unnece=
ssary complexity to the solution, we only plan to cover the case of 1 time =
transfer from End. RL to End. RL.X or
 or vice versa.  We could add an example.


 


 


 


Lihao


H3C


l=
ihao@h3c.com


ww=
w.h3c.com

This e=
-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from H3C, which =
is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above.
 Any use of the information contained herein in any way (including, but not=
 limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) b=
y persons other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receiv=
e this e-mail in error, please notify
 the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it!


 


-----------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------

=B1=BE=D3=CA=BC=FE=BC=B0=C6=E4=B8=BD=BC=FE=BA=AC=D3=D0=D0=C2=BB=
=AA=C8=FD=BC=AF=CD=C5=B5=C4=B1=A3=C3=DC=D0=C5=CF=A2=A3=AC=BD=F6=CF=DE=D3=DA=
=B7=A2=CB=CD=B8=F8=C9=CF=C3=E6=B5=D8=D6=B7=D6=D0=C1=D0=B3=F6

=B5=C4=B8=F6=C8=CB=BB=F2=C8=BA=D7=E9=A1=A3=BD=FB=D6=B9=C8=CE=BA=CE=
=C6=E4=CB=FB=C8=CB=D2=D4=C8=CE=BA=CE=D0=CE=CA=BD=CA=B9=D3=C3=A3=A8=B0=FC=C0=
=A8=B5=AB=B2=BB=CF=DE=D3=DA=C8=AB=B2=BF=BB=F2=B2=BF=B7=D6=B5=D8=D0=B9=C2=B6=
=A1=A2=B8=B4=D6=C6=A1=A2

=BB=F2=C9=A2=B7=A2=A3=A9=B1=BE=D3=CA=BC=FE=D6=D0=B5=C4=D0=C5=CF=A2=
=A1=A3=C8=E7=B9=FB=C4=FA=B4=ED=CA=D5=C1=CB=B1=BE=D3=CA=BC=FE=A3=AC=C7=EB=C4=
=FA=C1=A2=BC=B4=B5=E7=BB=B0=BB=F2=D3=CA=BC=FE=CD=A8=D6=AA=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=
=B2=A2=C9=BE=B3=FD=B1=BE

=D3=CA=BC=FE=A3=A1

This e-mail and its attachments conta=
in confidential information from New H3C, which is


intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any u=
se of the


information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, tot=
al or partial


disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the inten=
ded 

recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please not=
ify the sender


by phone or email immediately and delete it!
--_000_a66fa35b35764125b7217e8df116ce63huaweicom_-- From nobody Thu Jan 13 02:17:49 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D153A1290; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 02:17:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.095 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.095 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nOUB35wGG1bh; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 02:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24ED33A131D; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 02:17:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr05.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.69]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by opfednr24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTPS id 4JZL365G4Cz23bX; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 11:17:38 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1642069058; bh=NE8tBjA3kIqM1/FnNbFkDdAvWpTphRwealSIV6MLgnM=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=O63WYYtplthkfoQGE7obLyqDnmuU2HVLiCwm96IqqhK+dSQNROF66gH+Oaq6Dpi1R gbATK97FcANPgGr0CWi59/ktKuz+XCJZbk0qrv/E70gz/mzoIDnhKV729rfgG3YwNk kzfiVnjOo5TOx8QbiT8HFalcjexnRwtmne6cPLF/iB34D+VqRTqopr2tQiNuvbW3lH 7+JBxXsArC8TSK2pcljOCxaKJDewqQFDO3eXt0iryb78BPn1MkToFiYPaZyJQgXHR5 T/7fu9BXoz79xI+euodBcKUc9pvaLOdeXbcL0RIlGQE2qNoo/KFpdP9K4H7Z6IcaDW 8F5INixbiVW4Q== From: To: SPRING WG , "draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding Thread-Index: AdgIZrGtJ4kNOcThSViQ7BuFbn/8Lg== Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:17:38 +0000 Message-ID: <3104_1642069058_61DFFC42_3104_319_10_8549b268004442668017df2d9b036441@orange.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.115.26.50] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8549b268004442668017df2d9b036441orangecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:17:46 -0000 --_000_8549b268004442668017df2d9b036441orangecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi authors, contributors, WG In preparation of the WG adoption call on draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-p= roxy-forwarding [1], this email starts a poll for IPR. If you are an author or contributor to the subject document, please respond= to this email. * In your response, please indicate if all relevant IPR has been disclo= sed. * If you know of relevant IPR that has not been disclosed, please state= that and describe how this gap is being addressed. Even if you are not a contributor or author, if you know of relevant IPR, p= lease ensure that it has been dislosed as discussed in BCP 79. If you know of someone else IPR that you believe is relevant and not disclo= sed, please file a third party IPR disclosure. Thanks, Regards, Bruno, Jim, Joel [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing= -proxy-forwarding/ ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_8549b268004442668017df2d9b036441orangecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi authors, co= ntributors, WG

 

In preparation= of the WG adoption call on draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwardin= g [1], this email starts a poll for IPR.

 

If you are an = author or contributor to the subject document, please respond to this email= .

  • In your response, please indica= te if all relevant IPR has been disclosed.&= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;        
  • I= f you know of relevant IPR that has not been disclosed, please state that a= nd describe how this gap is being addressed.

 

Even if you ar= e not a contributor or author, if you know of relevant IPR, please ensure t= hat it has been dislosed as discussed in BCP 79.

 

If you know of= someone else IPR that you believe is relevant and not disclosed, please fi= le a third party IPR disclosure.

 

Thanks,

Regards,<= /o:p>

Bruno, Jim, Jo= el

[1]        https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pro= xy-forwarding/     = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;         =       

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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--_000_8549b268004442668017df2d9b036441orangecom_-- From nobody Thu Jan 13 02:19:28 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 706303A132C for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 02:19:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zecKdw2hRevM for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 02:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22ACF3A132A for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 02:19:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by opfedar24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTPS id 4JZL552ktsz5vbd for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2022 11:19:21 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1642069161; bh=AgJ0fk5l52oE+gCxTpxnV48jlYwL3V3Mm72PfiPcg9g=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=ePHAD5bw7FgSf3yzFh5/oMV0umJ0qJmwaBHOMnlKQgeci/N7BV7wtVWlgXDyZPbzw /j0Ri0hN7cgKWwtJwMWJb4mu1oxHZ+ZbJ9QqeNb32zwZCAQZfsLinqgDmHarTrHyGq tbDhLT334rfpRGG2CCzk9zhyJ+XHO7/ECE4j5t+0JgVbMHuXEmhb+qjRCwQzawBhnl JKuJXI+pK9B/8lrRE1U15LAWjYJBB7lFk7K/SkgePLCBZePDVQhGPfHFhtNgu1/j5j rWMdr1e35bhjhUBFQyMBfEV36fLJ2sp0XqSiBrZaO9SeiDwHQ5lWL2kN18HGe9cJrM z8zPgcW+o/KQA== From: To: SPRING WG Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding Thread-Index: AdgIZuyr9yYdtjOrSFSQcPhMc9AmsA== Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:19:20 +0000 Message-ID: <16511_1642069161_61DFFCA9_16511_109_5_57d3682191ff4ba0af62841fa9517ecb@orange.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.115.26.50] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_57d3682191ff4ba0af62841fa9517ecborangecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 10:19:27 -0000 --_000_57d3682191ff4ba0af62841fa9517ecborangecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear WG, This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft= -hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw= arding/ After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti= on of the document to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as = this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote. If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp= licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people = in the working group willing to work on the document. Thanks! Bruno, Jim, Joel ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_57d3682191ff4ba0af62841fa9517ecborangecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear WG,<= /o:p>

 

This message s= tarts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-seg= ment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox= y-forwarding/

 

After review o= f the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the docu= ment to the mailing list.

 

Please also pr= ovide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stro= nger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.    &nbs= p;

 

If you are wil= ling to work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. This = gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people in the working group willing to work on the document.=

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
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boundary="_000_BY3PR13MB504492BDE36BE3F7786089DFF2539BY3PR13MB5044namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY3PR13MB5044.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 01eaeda5-235b-4063-7174-08d9d6b14d4d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Jan 2022 16:25:24.2237 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /sJHrjMzosQPxQ7l7bqlK7GnGDhrEwLeGs7T4dubW44l0uj8rWP2nOCSHnHMlfXv3Fbkui2n60in499gIfqQTg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL3PR13MB5244 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:25:33 -0000 --_000_BY3PR13MB504492BDE36BE3F7786089DFF2539BY3PR13MB5044namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, Happy New Year! I support its adoption. It provides protections for a node SID, adjacen= cy SID and binding SID of SR-MPLS TE path after the IGP converges. Best Regards, Huaimo as co-author ________________________________ From: spring on behalf of bruno.decraene@orange.c= om Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:19 AM To: SPRING WG Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-= forwarding Dear WG, This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft= -hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw= arding/ After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti= on of the document to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as = this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote= . If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp= licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people = in the working group willing to work on the document. Thanks! Bruno, Jim, Joel ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_BY3PR13MB504492BDE36BE3F7786089DFF2539BY3PR13MB5044namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Everyone,

    Happy New Year!

    I support its adoption. It provides protections for a node SI= D, adjacency SID and binding SID of SR-MPLS TE pat= h after the IGP converges.

Best Regards,
Huaimo as co-author
From: spring <spring-bou= nces@ietf.org> on behalf of bruno.decraene@orange.com <bruno.decraene= @orange.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:19 AM
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing= -proxy-forwarding
 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/= 2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu= -spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not= ) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or la= ck thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as thi= s is not a vote.     

 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please= state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy l= evel of people in the working group willing to work on the document.

=  

Thanks!

= Bruno, Jim, Joel

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________=0A=
=0A=
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=0A=
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler=0A=
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,=0A=
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.=0A=
=0A=
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;=0A=
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.=0A=
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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Thank you.=0A=
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boundary="_000_BY3PR13MB5044CCEFC720451009793C69F2539BY3PR13MB5044namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY3PR13MB5044.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: cb028ac0-7a02-47ad-ae54-08d9d6b263a6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Jan 2022 16:33:11.2776 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: B8NZra8UshF/6SoEehUjlpl+XUXCS8r4Srwml4F68lKgO8TNHCCdrqxM9AqELO8gzP0xrsn/zxtbCwwFbX/ERA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR13MB2860 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2022 16:33:20 -0000 --_000_BY3PR13MB5044CCEFC720451009793C69F2539BY3PR13MB5044namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, I'm not aware of any undisclosed IPR related to this draft. Best Regards, Huaimo ________________________________ From: bruno.decraene@orange.com Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:17 AM To: SPRING WG ; draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw= arding@ietf.org Subject: IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding Hi authors, contributors, WG In preparation of the WG adoption call on draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-p= roxy-forwarding [1], this email starts a poll for IPR. If you are an author or contributor to the subject document, please respond= to this email. * In your response, please indicate if all relevant IPR has been disclo= sed. * If you know of relevant IPR that has not been disclosed, please state= that and describe how this gap is being addressed. Even if you are not a contributor or author, if you know of relevant IPR, p= lease ensure that it has been dislosed as discussed in BCP 79. If you know of someone else IPR that you believe is relevant and not disclo= sed, please file a third party IPR disclosure. Thanks, Regards, Bruno, Jim, Joel [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing= -proxy-forwarding/ ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_BY3PR13MB5044CCEFC720451009793C69F2539BY3PR13MB5044namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Everyone,

    I'm not aware of any undisclosed IPR related to this dra= ft.

Best Regards,
Huaimo
From: bruno.decraene@orange= .com <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:17 AM
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; draft-hu-spring-segment-routi= ng-proxy-forwarding@ietf.org <draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw= arding@ietf.org>
Subject: IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding=
 

Hi authors, contributors, WG

 

In preparation of the WG adoption call on draft-hu-spring-se= gment-routing-proxy-forwarding [1], this email starts a poll for IPR.

 

If you are an author or contributor to the subject document,= please respond to this email.

  • In your response, please indicate if all relevant IPR has be= en disclosed.       &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =  
  • If you know of relevant IPR that has not been disclosed, ple= ase state that and describe how this gap is being addressed.

    •  

    Even if you are not a contributor or author, if you know of = relevant IPR, please ensure that it has been dislosed as discussed in BCP 79.

     

    If you know of someone else IPR that you believe is relevant= and not disclosed, please file a third party IPR disclosure.

     

    Thanks,

    Regards,

    Bruno, Jim, Joel

    [1]      &nbs= p; https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pro= xy-forwarding/       &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;         &nb= sp;   

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________=0A=
=0A=
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=0A=
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler=0A=
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,=0A=
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.=0A=
=0A=
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.=0A=
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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Thank you.=0A=
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boundary="_000_CO1PR13MB4920B00CCA55F7D1360D6DB185549CO1PR13MB4920namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: CO1PR13MB4920.namprd13.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: abf788cf-3c56-4120-4170-08d9d6fbdea5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Jan 2022 01:19:10.8424 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5vwC4avF8JoiC3tMKvtF5NcZdqCbV7JGVzudjOPabbpGfBN7Qq3ZXnjZrGnjjU6nidzPjmWYQH5CqRa2YzsdWg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR13MB3573 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:19:23 -0000 --_000_CO1PR13MB4920B00CCA55F7D1360D6DB185549CO1PR13MB4920namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Support WG adoption. Linda Dunbar From: spring > on b= ehalf of bruno.decraene@orange.com > Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:19 AM To: SPRING WG > Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-= forwarding Dear WG, This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft= -hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw= arding/ After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti= on of the document to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as = this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote= . If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp= licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people = in the working group willing to work on the document. Thanks! Bruno, Jim, Joel ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_CO1PR13MB4920B00CCA55F7D1360D6DB185549CO1PR13MB4920namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Support WG adoption.

 

Linda Dunbar

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of bruno.decraene@orange.com = <bruno.decraene@orange.com<= /a>>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:19 AM
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org= >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing= -proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,<= /p>

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, endin= g 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/=

 

After review of the document please indicate support= (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your suppor= t (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) suppor= t as this is not a vote.     

 

If you are willing to work on or review the document= , please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the = energy level of people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please not=
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As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--_000_CO1PR13MB4920B00CCA55F7D1360D6DB185549CO1PR13MB4920namp_-- From nobody Fri Jan 14 00:08:37 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD40E3A1E1C for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:08:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.987 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.987 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_REMOTE_IMAGE=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F2RVDAt_Yl-G for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:08:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com (mail-pg1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B5B83A1E1A for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id c5so2152327pgk.12 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:08:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dQf3Em0HUI8gGOFJ246BEFjn1jgOLLgS8Fowgy4qa8M=; b=JM/5+7YwfIZqam7iUGOnzaoFvq6x8i50JhfvYnwSd3GnYX3DGHvAQ18+lITvrFOZYN xi+zrqXD5IPWyB85C4aLUb4CinmlEnumlyc3IhCbzH3hry7LizW++9mTCpgPtkTWQMha +4A4P01I22h36OX3WBU8h3eQGEJUD/JDliQ2o2OaHAqWDTMaQcswdGLvkfLBsbdPHU/s Rly12GBXOKXVrZjVBZMhYKQuoIimYS0p3MuLBoVXG0hfxSEVIXQjlR8cVKJ7UI+6vJA2 gVeXvK/xH0mmc4RH2jZflMQ5sEFiI/FxpBkSAY0InKpqtSDYXtEvnHP9fxTpbhx2ILe4 KvNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dQf3Em0HUI8gGOFJ246BEFjn1jgOLLgS8Fowgy4qa8M=; b=kYirtMid7vE13R1t5JEbP6+sSJA8fptcnVWqaMZeT5iD+ODA75r6Cu+fn1vCiN/myn LrSzS0cXJ9FsLu6IkJo0u0wyAL9k5PCnY9vc9NL73W3SydYK6f83Jf3/MNNn5Nwtdqta mEiiKq0YB8PTODZcfp/deLznWDaEsOiSflXM1OmXqxKVwnl0wzSkme//DUpyytB/ShG3 Y5To8vCINV0it+iNhOehWHaC92G1rgaJa74jksUzJvIFDpNY64JJWymPGkeurRd9ONUc Z2HCG/5qorDMEwd7HCWHjSqkg7iix3Lz/kKZ0c2TRSuGJSRuEsal3KpOZJk4fC/fhFTK GpgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532wk+no52ziPNgzSwO5rGK0oPyMUzJa/6DKG27fPAUTV8RL/dOr hoz6LXlsU/wAF3SqHRHwKekeufXMV2yssqQmvDA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxI8mQnuzQ091joXAVRTAy7v0nPYnOJxSudvLyjDyqV0KOxT4CvQ455LetGNoPFD/keDVrD4NZVJt1bMOQ+nkM= X-Received: by 2002:a63:8842:: with SMTP id l63mr4110605pgd.180.1642147708199; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:08:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <16511_1642069161_61DFFCA9_16511_109_5_57d3682191ff4ba0af62841fa9517ecb@orange.com> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 03:08:16 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linda Dunbar Cc: SPRING WG , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d0e83105d5864e62" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:08:35 -0000 --000000000000d0e83105d5864e62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have read the draft and support WG adoption of this draft. SR provides local protection only via TI-LFA at the PLR node but does not provide bypass loop NNH node protection around the failure. This draft provides a Midpoint protection mechanism using a new proxy forwarding IGP extension capability for restoration of routes to Adjacency segment, Node segment, and Binding segment after IGP convergence. Kind Regards Gyan On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 8:19 PM Linda Dunbar wrote: > > > Support WG adoption. > > > > Linda Dunbar > > > > > > *From:* spring on behalf of > bruno.decraene@orange.com > *Sent:* Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:19 AM > *To:* SPRING WG > *Subject:* [spring] WG adoption call - > draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding > > > > Dear WG, > > > > This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for > draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo= rwarding/ > > > > > After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG > adoption of the document to the mailing list. > > > > Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) a= s > this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a > vote. > > > > If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this > explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of > people in the working group willing to work on the document. > > > > Thanks! > > Bruno, Jim, Joel > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid= entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re= cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o= u falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i= nformation that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de= lete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee= n modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --=20 *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com * *M 301 502-1347* --000000000000d0e83105d5864e62 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have read the draft and support WG adopt= ion of this draft.

SR pr= ovides local protection only via TI-LFA at the PLR node but does not provid= e bypass loop NNH node protection around the failure.

This draft provides a Midpoint protection mec= hanism using a new proxy forwarding IGP extension =C2=A0capability for rest= oration of routes to Adjacency segment, Node segment, and Binding segment = =C2=A0after IGP convergence.

Kind Regards=C2=A0

= Gyan

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 8:19 PM Linda Dunbar <linda.dunbar@futurewei.com> wrote:
<= /div>

=C2=A0

Support WG adoption.

=

=C2=A0

Linda Dunbar

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of bruno.decrae= ne@orange.com <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:19 AM
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing= -proxy-forwarding

=C2=A0

Dear WG,

=C2=A0=

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call= , ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/= doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/

=C2=A0=

After review of the document please indicate = support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.

=C2=A0=

Please also provide comments/reasons for your= support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non)= support as this is not a vote.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0=

If you are willing to work on or review the d= ocument, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication = of the energy level of people in the working group willing to work on the document.

=C2=A0

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________
=C2=A0
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informati=
ons confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vo=
us avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes.=
 Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<=
/pre>

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere,=
 deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


=C2=A0


This message and its attachments may contain confidential or pr=
ivileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied without authoris=
ation.


If you have received this email in error, please notify the sen=
der and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages tha=
t have been modified, changed or falsified.


Thank you.
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--
--000000000000d0e83105d5864e62-- From nobody Fri Jan 14 00:58:20 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA70E3A1F32; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:58:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QD-WtLDsEzEY; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FE273A1F31; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 00:58:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml745-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.206]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4JZw8h5s57z6H6gr; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:54:28 +0800 (CST) Received: from canpemm500009.china.huawei.com (7.192.105.203) by fraeml745-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.226) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:58:09 +0100 Received: from canpemm500009.china.huawei.com (7.192.105.203) by canpemm500009.china.huawei.com (7.192.105.203) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:58:08 +0800 Received: from canpemm500009.china.huawei.com ([7.192.105.203]) by canpemm500009.china.huawei.com ([7.192.105.203]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.020; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:58:08 +0800 From: Huzhibo To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG , "draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding Thread-Index: AdgIZrGtJ4kNOcThSViQ7BuFbn/8LgAvhRFg Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:58:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3fe5b1e2c0674210bf2d62439d1ccc3b@huawei.com> References: <3104_1642069058_61DFFC42_3104_319_10_8549b268004442668017df2d9b036441@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <3104_1642069058_61DFFC42_3104_319_10_8549b268004442668017df2d9b036441@orange.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.112.232.179] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3fe5b1e2c0674210bf2d62439d1ccc3bhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 08:58:19 -0000 --_000_3fe5b1e2c0674210bf2d62439d1ccc3bhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi WG: I'm not aware of any undisclosed IPR related to this draft. Best Regards, Zhibo Hu From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@o= range.com Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:18 PM To: SPRING WG ; draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw= arding@ietf.org Subject: [spring] IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwardi= ng Hi authors, contributors, WG In preparation of the WG adoption call on draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-p= roxy-forwarding [1], this email starts a poll for IPR. If you are an author or contributor to the subject document, please respond= to this email. - In your response, please indicate if all relevant IPR has been disc= losed. - If you know of relevant IPR that has not been disclosed, please sta= te that and describe how this gap is being addressed. Even if you are not a contributor or author, if you know of relevant IPR, p= lease ensure that it has been dislosed as discussed in BCP 79. If you know of someone else IPR that you believe is relevant and not disclo= sed, please file a third party IPR disclosure. Thanks, Regards, Bruno, Jim, Joel [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing= -proxy-forwarding/ ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_3fe5b1e2c0674210bf2d62439d1ccc3bhuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi WG:

     I'm not aware= of any undisclosed IPR related to this draft.

 

Best Regards,

Zhibo Hu

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:18 PM
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; draft-hu-spring-segment-routi= ng-proxy-forwarding@ietf.org
Subject: [spring] IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-f= orwarding

 

Hi authors, contributors, WG

 

In preparation of the WG adoption call= on draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding [1], this email starts= a poll for IPR.

 

If you are an author or contributor to= the subject document, please respond to this email.

-    &nb= sp;  In your response, please indic= ate if all relevant IPR has been disclosed.     &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp; 

-    &nb= sp;  If you know of relevant IPR th= at has not been disclosed, please state that and describe how this gap is b= eing addressed.

 

Even if you are not a contributor or a= uthor, if you know of relevant IPR, please ensure that it has been dislosed= as discussed in BCP 79.

 

If you know of someone else IPR that y= ou believe is relevant and not disclosed, please file a third party IPR dis= closure.

 

Thanks,

Regards,

Bruno, Jim, Joel

[1]      = ;  https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw= arding/          &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =        

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--_000_3fe5b1e2c0674210bf2d62439d1ccc3bhuaweicom_-- From nobody Fri Jan 14 01:02:32 2022 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5400E3A1F45 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:02:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LrcuG69bQtG5 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:02:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from frasgout.his.huawei.com (frasgout.his.huawei.com [185.176.79.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC0B93A1F41 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 01:02:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.147.200]) by frasgout.his.huawei.com (SkyGuard) with ESMTP id 4JZwGT1HQTz68272 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 16:59:29 +0800 (CST) Received: from canpemm100010.china.huawei.com (7.192.104.38) by fraeml712-chm.china.huawei.com (10.206.15.61) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 10:02:22 +0100 Received: from canpemm500009.china.huawei.com (7.192.105.203) by canpemm100010.china.huawei.com (7.192.104.38) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2308.20; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 17:02:21 +0800 Received: from canpemm500009.china.huawei.com ([7.192.105.203]) by canpemm500009.china.huawei.com ([7.192.105.203]) with mapi id 15.01.2308.020; Fri, 14 Jan 2022 17:02:21 +0800 From: Huzhibo To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding Thread-Index: AdgIZuyr9yYdtjOrSFSQcPhMc9AmsAAve+Ng Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:02:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <16511_1642069161_61DFFCA9_16511_109_5_57d3682191ff4ba0af62841fa9517ecb@orange.com> In-Reply-To: <16511_1642069161_61DFFCA9_16511_109_5_57d3682191ff4ba0af62841fa9517ecb@orange.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.112.232.179] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_c25b58f82d9446fa91a3f6e07a390320huaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 09:02:30 -0000 --_000_c25b58f82d9446fa91a3f6e07a390320huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi WG, I support its adoption as author. It provides a complete FRR mechanism = for SR-TE Node/Link/Binding Sid failure. Including before IGP convergence,a= nd after IGP convergence to before TE convergence. Best Regards, Zhibo Hu From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@o= range.com Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:19 PM To: SPRING WG Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-= forwarding Dear WG, This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft= -hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw= arding/ After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti= on of the document to the mailing list. Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as = this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote= . If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp= licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people = in the working group willing to work on the document. Thanks! Bruno, Jim, Joel ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_c25b58f82d9446fa91a3f6e07a390320huaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi WG,

 

    I support its adopt= ion as author. It provides a complete FRR mechanism for SR-TE Node/Link/Bin= ding Sid failure. Including before IGP convergence,and  after IGP c= onvergence to before TE convergence.

 

Best Regards,

Zhibo Hu

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:19 PM
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing= -proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adopti= on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa= rding

https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/

 

After review of the document please in= dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list= .

 

Please also provide comments/reasons f= or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you= r (non) support as this is not a vote.      &= nbsp;

 

If you are willing to work on or revie= w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi= cation of the energy level of people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
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Hi=20WG=EF=BC=8C

 =20  I'm=20not=20aware=20of=20any=20undisclos= ed=20IPR=20related=20to=20this=20draft.
Best=20RegardsYisong<= div=20class=3D=22rich_html_content=22=20style=3D=22color:=23000000;=20font-= Size:12pt;=20font-family:=E5=BE=AE=E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91;=20word-wrap:= break-word;x-overflow:hidden;=22>
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=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=20bruno.decraene=E6=97= =B6=E9=97=B4:=202022/01/13(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)18:17=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=20SPRING=20WG;draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forward= ing;=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:=20IPR=20poll=20-=20draft-hu-sp= ring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding=0A=0AHi=20auth= ors,=20contributors,=20WG

=0A 

=0AIn=20preparation=20of=20the=20WG=20adoption=20call=20on=20d= raft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding=20=5B1=5D,=20this=20email= =20starts=20a=20poll=20for=20IPR.

=0A 

=0AIf=20you=20are=20an=20author=20or=20contributor=20t= o=20the=20subject=20document,=20please=20respond=20to=20this=20email.<= /o:p>

=0A= =0A= In=20your=20response,=20please=20indicate=20if=20all=20relevant=20IPR=20has= =20been=20disclosed.   = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;     =0AIf=20you=20= know=20of=20relevant=20IPR=20that=20has=20not=20been=20disclosed,=20please= =20state=20that=20and=20describe=0A=20how=20this=20gap=20is=20being=20addre= ssed.=0A 

=0AEven=20if=20you=20are=20not=20a=20contributor=20or=20author,=20if=20you= =20know=20of=20relevant=20IPR,=20please=20ensure=20that=20it=20has=20been= =0Adislosed=20as=20discussed=20in=20BCP=2079.

=0A 

=0AIf=20you=20know=20of= =20someone=20else=20IPR=20that=20you=20believe=20is=20relevant=20and=20not= =20disclosed,=20please=20file=20a=20third=20party=20IPR=20disclosure.<= /o:p>

=0A 

=0AThanks,

=0ARegards,

=0ABruno,=20Jim,=20Jo= el

=0A=5B1=5D       =0Ahttps://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/        &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;           =0A     &n= bsp;     =20

=0A= =0A
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Les=20messages=20electroniques=20etant=20susceptibles=20d'alteration,=0AOra=
nge=20decline=20toute=20responsabilite=20si=20ce=20message=20a=20ete=20alte=
re,=20deforme=20ou=20falsifie.=20Merci.=0A=0AThis=20message=20and=20its=20a=
ttachments=20may=20contain=20confidential=20or=20privileged=20information=
=20that=20may=20be=20protected=20by=20law;=0Athey=20should=20not=20be=20dis=
tributed,=20used=20or=20copied=20without=20authorisation.=0AIf=20you=20have=
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Hi=20WG,

 =20 =20 I=20support=20the=20adoption=
=20of=20this=20draft=20as=20co-author.=20It=20provides=20a=20midpoint=20pro=
tection=20mechanism=20and=20improves=20the=20SR=20local=20protection=20solu=
tion.
Best=20RegardsYiso=
ng

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=20bruno.decraene=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:=202022/01/13(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)18:19=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=20SPRING=20WG;=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:=20=5Bsp=
ring=5D=20WG=20adoption=20call=20-=20draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding=0A=0ADear=20WG,
=0A<=
p=20class=3D=22MsoNormal=22> 
=0AThis=20message=20starts=20a=202=20we=
ek=20WG=20adoption=20call,=20ending=2027/01/2022,=20for=20draft-hu-spring-s=
egment-routing-proxy-forwarding
=0Ahttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding/
=0A =

=0AAfter=20review=20of=20the=20document=20please=20indicate=20sup=
port=20(or=20not)=20for=20WG=20adoption=20of=20the=20document=20to=20the=20=
mailing=20list.
=0A 
=
=0APlease=20also=20provide=20comments/reasons=20for=20your=20support=20=
(or=20lack=20thereof)=20as=20this=20is=20a=20stronger=20way=20to=20indicate=
=20your=20(non)=20support=20as=20this=0A=20is=20not=20a=20vote.     =20
=0A 
=0AIf=20you=20are=20wil=
ling=20to=20work=20on=20or=20review=20the=20document,=20please=20state=20th=
is=20explicitly.=20This=20gives=20the=20chairs=20an=20indication=20of=20the=
=20energy=20level=0A=20of=20people=20in=20the=20working=20group=20willing=
=20to=20work=20on=20the=20document.
=0A 
=0AThanks=21
=
=0ABruno,=20Jim,=20Joel=

=0A=0A
______________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________=0A=0ACe=
=20message=20et=20ses=20pieces=20jointes=20peuvent=20contenir=20des=20infor=
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pas=20etre=20diffuses,=20exploites=20ou=20copies=20sans=20autorisation.=20S=
i=20vous=20avez=20recu=20ce=20message=20par=20erreur,=20veuillez=20le=20sig=
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=20jointes.=20Les=20messages=20electroniques=20etant=20susceptibles=20d'alt=
eration,=0AOrange=20decline=20toute=20responsabilite=20si=20ce=20message=20=
a=20ete=20altere,=20deforme=20ou=20falsifie.=20Merci.=0A=0AThis=20message=
=20and=20its=20attachments=20may=20contain=20confidential=20or=20privileged=
=20information=20that=20may=20be=20protected=20by=20law;=0Athey=20should=20=
not=20be=20distributed,=20used=20or=20copied=20without=20authorisation.=0AI=
f=20you=20have=20received=20this=20email=20in=20error,=20please=20notify=20=
the=20sender=20and=20delete=20this=20message=20and=20its=20attachments.=0AA=
s=20emails=20may=20be=20altered,=20Orange=20is=20not=20liable=20for=20messa=
ges=20that=20have=20been=20modified,=20changed=20or=20falsified.=0AThank=20=
you.=0A
=0A=0A

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To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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I support the adoption.

Best,
Haoyu

From: spring  On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.c=
om
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 2:19 AM
To: SPRING WG 
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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I support=
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&nbs=
p;


Best,


Haoyu


&nbs=
p;






From:<=
/span> spring <spring-bou=
nces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 2:19 AM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending=
 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding


https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/<=
/o:p>


 


After review of the document please indicate support =
(or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons for your support=
 (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support=
 as this is not a vote.



 


If you are willing to work on or review the document,=
 please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the e=
nergy level of people in the working group willing
 to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


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From nobody Fri Jan 14 12:51:43 2022
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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-yang-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : YANG Data Model for SRv6 Base and Static
        Authors         : Kamran Raza
                          Sonal Agarwal
                          Xufeng Liu
                          Zhibo Hu
                          Iftekhar Hussain
                          Himanshu Shah
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Satoru Matsushima
                          Katsuhiro Horiba
                          Jaganbabu Rajamanickam
                          Ahmed AbdelSalam
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-yang-01.txt
	Pages           : 75
	Date            : 2022-01-14

Abstract:
   This document describes a YANG data model for Segment Routing IPv6
   (SRv6) base.  The model serves as a base framework for configuring
   and managing an SRv6 subsystem and expected to be augmented by other
   SRv6 technology models accordingly.  Additionally, this document also
   specifies the model for the SRv6 Static application.

   The YANG modules in this document conform to the Network Management
   Datastore Architecture (NMDA).


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-yang/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-yang-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-yang-01


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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px; font-family: "Microsoft YaHei UI"; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.=
5; }=0A=
=0A=

Hi WG=EF=BC=8C

I support th=
e adoption.

Regards,
Peng Liu
=0A=


=0A=

liupengyjy@outlook.com
=0A=

 
Fr=
om: bruno.decraene@orange.com<=
/div>
Date: 2022-01-13 18:19
To: =
;SPRING WG
Subject: [spring=
] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
=

=0A=
=0A=

=0A=

Dear WG,
=0A=

 
=0A=

This message st=
arts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segm=
ent-routing-proxy-forwarding
=0A=

https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/<=
/a>
=0A=

 
=0A=

After review of=
 the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the docum=
ent to the mailing list.
=0A=

 
=0A=

Please also pro=
vide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stron=
ger way to indicate your (non) support as this=0A=
 is not a vote.    &nbs=
p; 
=0A=

 
=0A=

If you are will=
ing to work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. This g=
ives the chairs an indication of the energy level=0A=
 of people in the working group willing to work on the document.=

=0A=

 
=0A=

Thanks!=

=0A=

Bruno, Jim, Joel
=0A=

=0A=

______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________=0A=
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=0A=
=

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Subject: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
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------=_Part_2898191_1385543619.1642238806659
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Language: en-US

Dear SPRING working group,

Following up on just released RFC 9160 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/ht=
ml/rfc9160), IPFIX code points for MPLS Segment Routing,

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh has=
 been submitted for the SRV6 data-plane.

The document aims to be on par with MPLS-SR. Describe the routing protocol =
or PCEP extension where the last SRv6 segment has been learned from, the SR=
v6 segment list and all other properties from the Segment Routing header.

I would appreciate your document review and feedback.

I aim to present at IETF 113 at OPSAWG and SPRING and request adoption at O=
PSAWG.

Best wishes
Thomas

-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org =20
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2022 10:12 AM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-TCZ-ZH1 
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.=
txt


A new version of I-D, draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Thomas Graf and posted to the IETF repos=
itory.

Name:=09=09draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh
Revision:=0900
Title:=09=09Export of Segment Routing IPv6 Information in IP Flow Informati=
on Export (IPFIX)
Document date:=092022-01-15
Group:=09=09Individual Submission
Pages:=09=099
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-sr=
v6-srh-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-s=
rv6-srh/
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tgraf-opsawg-ip=
fix-srv6-srh


Abstract:
   This document introduces new IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) code
   points to identify which traffic is being forwarded with which
   Segemnt Routing Header dimensions based on which SRv6 control plane
   protocol.

                                                                           =
      =20


The IETF Secretariat

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=0A=0A
I support the adoption of this draft. T=
hanks.
=0A
B.R.
Yongqing Zhu
=0A
zhuyq8@chinatelecom.cn
=0A
 
From:=
 bruno.decraene@orange.com
Date: 2022-01-13 18:19
To: =
;SPRING WG
Subject: [spri=
ng] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
=0A=0A
=0A
Dear WG,
=0A
 
=0AThis message s=
tarts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-se=
gment-routing-proxy-forwarding
=0A
https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/
=0A
 
=0A
After review of the document please indicate support=
 (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.<=
/span>
=0A
 
=0A
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support =
(or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support=
 as this=0A is not a vote.  &nbs=
p;   
=0A
 
=0A
If you are willing t=
o work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. This gives=
 the chairs an indication of the energy level=0A of people in the working =
group willing to work on the document.
=0A
 
=0A
Thanks!
=0A
Bruno, Jim, Joel
=0A
=0A
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Reply-To: 
From: "Adrian Farrel" 
To: 
Cc: 
Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 18:15:30 -0000
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Subject: [spring] A review of draft-ietf-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn-01
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Hi,

I've been on a roll reading and reviewing network slicing and enhanced
VPN drafts, so I thought I'd get round to this one. A bit surprised to
find it has expired - you probably want to post something to keep it
alive.

Seems most drafts I review these days I end up writing a comments that
goes...
Before this document gets published as an RFC you will need to cut down
the names on the front page to 5 or fewer. It is usually easiest to do
this early and in your own time rather than being forced to do it or
having the document held up while you sort it out.

Otherwise, this draft seems fairly much ready, and only blocked on the
completion of the normative references (see note below). I wonder, 
however, whether some of the informative references are a little
immature (early individual drafts) to serve as example/possible protocol
solutions.

Here are a few points for you to consider.

Thanks,
Adrian

== Minor Points ==

I have some scaling concerns about the mechanism defined here. If you
imagine running 1000 VTNs in the network, and if each link is 
advertising a SID, wouldn't you end up needing to advertise 1000 SIDs
for each link?

This is made clear in 2.1

   For one IGP link, multiple Adj-SIDs are allocated, each of which is
   associated with a VTN that link participates in, and represents a
   subset of the link resources allocated to the VTN.  For one IGP node,
   multiple prefix-SIDs are allocated, each of which is associated with
   a VTN which the node participates in, and identifies the set of
   network resources allocated to the VTN on network nodes which
   participate in the VTN.

While section 2.4 makes a stab at identifying the scaling concerns, it
seems to miss the main point that the IGP may be quite fragile as the
number of VTNs increases.

Note that similar issues came up in IGP-TE work. The solution there was
to advertise just once for the link, but to list the TE attributes on
the advertisement. I think you could do the same here so that a link
would be a simple advertisement with a list of adjacency SIDs (resource
aware SIDs) subtended. Of course, you have to handle the addition and
removal of VTNs (or variations in the allocated bandwidth), but this 
seems easy enough to manage.

Curiously, section 4 appears to make a positive thing of the fact that
there are scalability concerns. Continuing to contrast SR per topology
state with pre-SR topology per path state is beginning to look a little
thin at this point since the link in the VNT is exactly the path in the
pre-SR topology. You only difference at this stage is the signaling
state, and control plane signaling is not a requirement in a non-SR
system. Since (I think) you don't want to get distracted in this work 
into a re-initiation of the arguments about SR or no SR, I suggest that
you should be more careful with the wording in the third bullet of
section 4. (The final sentence of section 4 contrasting the resource
aggregation in this case with that in RSVP-TE and claiming that resource
allocation is easier and more flexible that with RSVP-TE is really 
likely to cause a fight. It is simply unnecessary to say this in this
document. Stop trying to make marketing statements in Internet-Drafts
and just define the technology!)

I think that the scaling concerns in the current draft merit a mention
in Section 7 since the whole system may be destabilised by an attack (or
accident) that causes a large number of VTNs to be configured. This can
be mitigated by placing thresholds (for alarms or cut-off) in the 
configuration process.

---

I think that I-D.ietf-spring-resource-aware-segments and
I-D.ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn are used in a way that makes them normative
references.



== Nits ==

Throughout

s/(e.g./(e.g.,/ 

---

Abstract

s/which has/which have/

---

1.

Just to future-proof yourself...
s/proposes to extend SR/extends SR/

---

1.

s/which has customized/which have customized/

---

3.

   The detailed control
   plane mechanisms and possible extensions are described in separate
   documents and are out of the scope of this document.

Which separate documents?

---

You have an upper case "SHOULD" in section 3.3. Since you don't have the
BCP 14 boilerplate, I suspect you mean this to be lower case.

---

OLD
3.5.  VTN Visibility to Customer
NEW
3.5.  VTN Visibility to Customers
END

---

3.5

s/requirement, VTN/requirement, VTNs/

---

OLD
4.  Characteristics of SR based VTN
NEW
4.  Characteristics of SR based VTNs
END

---

In several places (and notably section 4) you say...

   The proposed mechanism...

You need to be more assertive if this is to be an RFC (that is not
Experimental). You are "describing" a mechanism not "proposing" it.

---

4.

      Each customer is only aware of the topology
      and attributes of his own VTN

Please consider using the gender-neutral "their" in place of "his"

---

4.

s/provides an practical/provides a practical/

---

OLD
5.  Service Assurance of VTN
NEW
5.  Service Assurance for VTNs
END

---

5.

   In order to provide assurance for services provisioned in the SR
   based VTNs, it is necessary to instrument the network at multiple
   levels, e.g. in both the underlay network level and the VTN level.
   The operator or the customer may also monitor and measure the
   performance of the services carried by the VTN.  In principle these
   can be achieved using existing or in development techniques in IETF.
   The detailed mechanisms are out of the scope of this document.

Assuming that VTNs without service assurance are undesirable, and
reading "it is necessary to instrument", I think this paragraph rather
fails to deliver... "You can probably use some mechanisms defined 
elsewhere or maybe being defined, but we are not going to tell you about
them."

Can you at least give some "such as" references?

---

5.

s/degradation happens in/degradation in/


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=

=0A
 
Date: 2022-01-13 18:19
Subject: [spring] WG=
 adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
=0A=0A
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I support WG adoption of this draft.

Thanks,
Donald
===============================
 Donald E. Eastlake 3rd   +1-508-333-2270 (cell)
 2386 Panoramic Circle, Apopka, FL 32703 USA
 d3e3e3@gmail.com

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
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I support WG adoption of this draft.

=
Thanks,
Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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 USA
=C2=A0d3e3e3@=
gmail.com

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/

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Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel


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=20

Hi Folks,

=20

Happy new year!=20

=20

I support this adoption. Proxy mode is a kind of common way to solve a =
group of failure restoration problem, that is the advantage.

=20

BR=EF=BC=8C

=20

=E6=9D=A8=E9=94=8B

Feng Yang

=20

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: bruno.decraene =
=20

=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2022/01/13(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)18:19

=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: SPRING WG  ;

=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

Dear WG,

=20

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding/

=20

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG =
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=20

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) =
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=20

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=20

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

_________________________________________________________________________=
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Hi Folks,
 
Happy new year! 
 
I support this adoption. Proxy mode is a kind of common way to solve =
a group of failure restoration problem, that is the =
advantage.
 
BR=EF=BC=8C
 
=E6=9D=A8=E9=94=8B
Feng Yang
 
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: bruno.decraene
=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2022/01/13(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)18:19
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: SPRING =
WG;
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
Dear =
WG,
 
This message =
starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segme=
nt-routing-proxy-forwarding/
 
After review =
of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the =
document to the mailing list.
 
Please also =
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stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a =
vote.       
 
If you are =
willing to work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. =
This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people in the =
working group willing to work on the document.
 
Thanks=
!<=
/span>
Bruno, Jim, =
Joel
_______________________________________________________________=
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From nobody Mon Jan 17 04:45:01 2022
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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" 
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "draft-ietf-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn@ietf.org" 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: A review of draft-ietf-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn-01
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Hi Adrian,

Thanks a lot for the review and comments. And please see come replies inlin=
e:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Farrel [mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk]
> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2022 2:16 AM
> To: draft-ietf-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn@ietf.org
> Cc: spring@ietf.org
> Subject: A review of draft-ietf-spring-sr-for-enhanced-vpn-01
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I've been on a roll reading and reviewing network slicing and enhanced
> VPN drafts, so I thought I'd get round to this one. A bit surprised to fi=
nd it
> has expired - you probably want to post something to keep it alive.

Yes, the plan is to provide an update in the following one or two weeks.=20


>=20
> Seems most drafts I review these days I end up writing a comments that
> goes...
> Before this document gets published as an RFC you will need to cut down
> the names on the front page to 5 or fewer. It is usually easiest to do th=
is
> early and in your own time rather than being forced to do it or having th=
e
> document held up while you sort it out.

Thanks for the reminder.=20

>=20
> Otherwise, this draft seems fairly much ready, and only blocked on the
> completion of the normative references (see note below). I wonder,
> however, whether some of the informative references are a little
> immature (early individual drafts) to serve as example/possible protocol
> solutions.



>=20
> Here are a few points for you to consider.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian
>=20
> =3D=3D Minor Points =3D=3D
>=20
> I have some scaling concerns about the mechanism defined here. If you
> imagine running 1000 VTNs in the network, and if each link is advertising=
 a
> SID, wouldn't you end up needing to advertise 1000 SIDs for each link?

Yes, if 1000 VTNs are required in the network, then the number of SIDs requ=
ired for each link/node would become an issue. This is analyzed in the VTN =
scalability draft in TEAS.=20

>=20
> This is made clear in 2.1
>=20
>    For one IGP link, multiple Adj-SIDs are allocated, each of which is
>    associated with a VTN that link participates in, and represents a
>    subset of the link resources allocated to the VTN.  For one IGP node,
>    multiple prefix-SIDs are allocated, each of which is associated with
>    a VTN which the node participates in, and identifies the set of
>    network resources allocated to the VTN on network nodes which
>    participate in the VTN.
>=20
> While section 2.4 makes a stab at identifying the scaling concerns, it se=
ems
> to miss the main point that the IGP may be quite fragile as the number of
> VTNs increases.
>=20
> Note that similar issues came up in IGP-TE work. The solution there was t=
o
> advertise just once for the link, but to list the TE attributes on the
> advertisement. I think you could do the same here so that a link would be
> a simple advertisement with a list of adjacency SIDs (resource aware SIDs=
)
> subtended. Of course, you have to handle the addition and removal of
> VTNs (or variations in the allocated bandwidth), but this seems easy
> enough to manage.

Totally agree that the control plane (e.g. IGP) extensions for VTN need to =
be optimized to improve the scalability. This is analyzed in the VTN scalab=
ility draft in TEAS, and the IGP extensions are specified in draft-dong-lsr=
-sr-for-enhanced-vpn.=20

>=20
> Curiously, section 4 appears to make a positive thing of the fact that th=
ere
> are scalability concerns. Continuing to contrast SR per topology state wi=
th
> pre-SR topology per path state is beginning to look a little thin at this=
 point
> since the link in the VNT is exactly the path in the pre-SR topology. You=
 only
> difference at this stage is the signaling state, and control plane signal=
ing is
> not a requirement in a non-SR system. Since (I think) you don't want to g=
et
> distracted in this work into a re-initiation of the arguments about SR or=
 no
> SR, I suggest that you should be more careful with the wording in the thi=
rd
> bullet of section 4. (The final sentence of section 4 contrasting the
> resource aggregation in this case with that in RSVP-TE and claiming that
> resource allocation is easier and more flexible that with RSVP-TE is real=
ly
> likely to cause a fight. It is simply unnecessary to say this in this doc=
ument.
> Stop trying to make marketing statements in Internet-Drafts and just defi=
ne
> the technology!)

Since a path usually consists of multiple links, my understanding is that m=
aintaining per-segment state can have better scalability than maintaining p=
er path state, as one resource-aware segment can be part of multiple paths =
in a VTN, and the resource represented by the resource-aware SID can be the=
 aggregation of the resources required by multiple paths.=20

But I agree there is no need to provide the comparison between the two appr=
oaches here.=20

>=20
> I think that the scaling concerns in the current draft merit a mention in
> Section 7 since the whole system may be destabilised by an attack (or
> accident) that causes a large number of VTNs to be configured. This can b=
e
> mitigated by placing thresholds (for alarms or cut-off) in the configurat=
ion
> process.
>=20

Agreed.=20

> ---
>=20
> I think that I-D.ietf-spring-resource-aware-segments and
> I-D.ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn are used in a way that makes them normative
> references.

Agreed, we will move them to normative reference.

>=20
>=20
>=20
> =3D=3D Nits =3D=3D

Thanks for catching the nits, we will fix them in next revision.=20

Best regards,
Jie

>=20
> Throughout
>=20
> s/(e.g./(e.g.,/
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Abstract
>=20
> s/which has/which have/
>=20
> ---
>=20
> 1.
>=20
> Just to future-proof yourself...
> s/proposes to extend SR/extends SR/
>=20
> ---
>=20
> 1.
>=20
> s/which has customized/which have customized/
>=20
> ---
>=20
> 3.
>=20
>    The detailed control
>    plane mechanisms and possible extensions are described in separate
>    documents and are out of the scope of this document.
>=20
> Which separate documents?
>=20
> ---
>=20
> You have an upper case "SHOULD" in section 3.3. Since you don't have the
> BCP 14 boilerplate, I suspect you mean this to be lower case.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> OLD
> 3.5.  VTN Visibility to Customer
> NEW
> 3.5.  VTN Visibility to Customers
> END
>=20
> ---
>=20
> 3.5
>=20
> s/requirement, VTN/requirement, VTNs/
>=20
> ---
>=20
> OLD
> 4.  Characteristics of SR based VTN
> NEW
> 4.  Characteristics of SR based VTNs
> END
>=20
> ---
>=20
> In several places (and notably section 4) you say...
>=20
>    The proposed mechanism...
>=20
> You need to be more assertive if this is to be an RFC (that is not
> Experimental). You are "describing" a mechanism not "proposing" it.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> 4.
>=20
>       Each customer is only aware of the topology
>       and attributes of his own VTN
>=20
> Please consider using the gender-neutral "their" in place of "his"
>=20
> ---
>=20
> 4.
>=20
> s/provides an practical/provides a practical/
>=20
> ---
>=20
> OLD
> 5.  Service Assurance of VTN
> NEW
> 5.  Service Assurance for VTNs
> END
>=20
> ---
>=20
> 5.
>=20
>    In order to provide assurance for services provisioned in the SR
>    based VTNs, it is necessary to instrument the network at multiple
>    levels, e.g. in both the underlay network level and the VTN level.
>    The operator or the customer may also monitor and measure the
>    performance of the services carried by the VTN.  In principle these
>    can be achieved using existing or in development techniques in IETF.
>    The detailed mechanisms are out of the scope of this document.
>=20
> Assuming that VTNs without service assurance are undesirable, and
> reading "it is necessary to instrument", I think this paragraph rather fa=
ils to
> deliver... "You can probably use some mechanisms defined elsewhere or
> maybe being defined, but we are not going to tell you about them."
>=20
> Can you at least give some "such as" references?
>=20
> ---
>=20
> 5.
>=20
> s/degradation happens in/degradation in/


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From: Xufeng Liu 
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 14:43:02 -0500
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To: bruno.decraene@orange.com
Cc: SPRING WG 
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Support for WG adoption.
Thanks,
- Xufeng


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On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 5:19 AM  wrote:

> Dear WG,
>
>
>
> This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
> draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/
>
>
>
> After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
> adoption of the document to the mailing list.
>
>
>
> Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
> this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.
>
>
>
>
> If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
> explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
> people in the working group willing to work on the document.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bruno, Jim, Joel
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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- Xufeng
=





	

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On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 5:19 AM <bruno.decraene@orange.com> wrote:













Dear WG,


=C2=A0


This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, endin=
g 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding


https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/=



=C2=A0


After review of the document please indicate support=
 (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.


=C2=A0


Please also provide comments/reasons for your suppor=
t (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) suppor=
t as this
 is not a vote.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 


=C2=A0


If you are willing to work on or review the document=
, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the =
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 of people in the working group willing to work on the document.<=
/u>


=C2=A0


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel




______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
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I support the adoption. 

 

Best Regards,

Weiqiang Cheng

 

  _____  

From: spring  on behalf of
bruno.decraene@orange.com 
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 5:19 AM
To: SPRING WG 
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding 

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa
rding/
 

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.


 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________
 
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I support the =
adoption. 
 
Best =
Regards,
Weiqiang =
Cheng
 
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
bruno.decraene@orange.com =
<bruno.decraene@orange.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, =
2022 5:19 AM
To: SPRING WG =
<spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding 
 
Dear =
WG,=

 =
=

This message =
starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding=

https://datatracker.ietf.org/=
doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/=

 =
=

After review =
of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the =
document to the mailing list.=

 =
=

Please also =
provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as this is a =
stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a =
vote.      =

 =
=

If you are =
willing to work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. =
This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people in the =
working group willing to work on the document.=

 =
=

Thanks=
!=

Bruno, Jim, =
Joel=

_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________
 
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donc
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erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,
Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.
 
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they should not be =
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authorisation.
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=0A=0A=0AClean=0A=0A=0A21=0A=0A=0A=0Afalse=0Afalse=
=0Afalse=0A=0AFR=
=0AX-NONE=0AX-=
NONE=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A
Hi all,

=
    &=
nbsp;   &n=
bsp;   I support this adoption. The draft is completed and useful.
=0A

Best regards,
=0A
Haojie Wang
ChinaMobile
wanghaojie@chinamobile.com
=0A
 
From: SPRING WG
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-se=
gment-routing-proxy-forwarding
=0A=0A
=0A
Dear WG,
=0A
 
=0A
This message starts =
a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-=
routing-proxy-forwarding
=0A
https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/<=
/span>
=0A
 
=0A
After review of the document please indicate =
support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.=

=0A
 
=0A
<=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial"=
;,sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:EN-US">Please also provide comments/reasons=
 for your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate =
your (non) support as this=0A is not a vote.      
=0A
 
=0A
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state =
this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level=
=0A of people in the working group willing to work on the document.
=0A
 
=
=0A
Thanks<=
span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif">!=

=0A
Bruno, Jim, Joel<=
/o:p>
=0A
=0A
_________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________________________=
______=0ACe message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des information=
s confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=0Apas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par er=
reur, veuillez le signaler=0Aa l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les p=
ieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,=
=0AOrange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme=
 ou falsifie. Merci.=0AThis message and its attachments may contain confid=
ential or privileged information that may be protected by law;=0Athey shou=
ld not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.=0AIf you have=
 received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this me=
ssage and its attachments.=0AAs emails may be altered, Orange is not liabl=
e for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.=0AThank you.=
=0A
=0A
=0A
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To: "bruno.decraene" , SPRING WG 
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Hi WG=EF=BC=8C





I support this adoption.





Best Regards,

Liyan Gong




----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E6=96=87----=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=
=BC=9A"bruno.decraene" =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=
=BA=EF=BC=9ASPRING WG  =E6=8A=84=E3=80=80=E9=80=81: (=E6=
=97=A0)=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=EF=BC=9A2022-01-13 18:19:20=E4=
=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=9A[spring] WG adoption call -draft-hu-spring-segment-=
routing-proxy-forwarding
     =20

Dear WG,


=20


This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/


=20


After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.


=20


Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this  is not a vot=
e.     =20


=20


If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level  of people=
 in the working group willing to work on the document.


=20


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l39expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages e=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
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------=_Part_104226_819169387.1642643715768
Content-Type: text/html;charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi WG=EF=BC=8C

I =
;support this adoption.

Best Regards,
Liyan Gong

GIM2&=
gt;> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe =
from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as=
 simple as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of =
the SR policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If=
 the operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, =
I imagine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, =
e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?












options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, witho=
ut needing to worry about the extension header issue. =C2=A0<=
/p>









GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








=C2=A0 =C2=A0In terms of the classification given=







=C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change=C2=A0that?

=C2=A0


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for=
 active measurement because it=E2=80=99s not included in a user packet.











=C2=A0


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very w=
elcome. I=E2=80=99d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in =
scope and should be adopted by the working group.=C2=A0 If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/<=
/p>

=C2=A0


Thank you very much!


=C2=A0


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring












----=E9=82=AE=
=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E6=96=87----
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=
=BC=9A"bruno.decraene" <bruno.decraene@orange.co=
m>
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA=EF=BC=9ASPRING =
WG  <spring@ietf.org>
=E6=8A=84=E3=80=80=E9=80=
=81: (=E6=97=A0)
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4=
=EF=BC=9A2022-01-13 18:19:20
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98=EF=BC=
=9A[spring] WG adoption call -draft-hu-spring-=
segment-routing-proxy-forwarding


      
Dear=
 WG,
 
This message =
starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-se=
gment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-for=
warding/
 
After=
 review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of=
 the document to the mailing list.
 
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or =
lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as t=
his  is not a vote.      
 
If you are wi=
lling to work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. This=
 gives the chairs an indication of the energy level  of people in the =
working group willing to work on the document.
&nb=
sp;
Thanks!

------=_Part_104226_819169387.1642643715768--



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From: Lihao 
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Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi WG


 


 


I  Support the adoption.


 


 


thanks.


 


 


 






=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
=B4=FA=B1=ED
bruno.decraene@orang=
e.com

=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2022=
=C4=EA1=D4=
=C213=C8=D5
 18:19

=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

=D6=F7=CC=E2: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forward=
ing






 


Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.      &=
nbsp;



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.



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From: "Aijun Wang" 
To: , "'SPRING WG'" 
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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi, All:

 

I have read this draft and support its adoption.

It can provide the restoration of the routes to an adjacency segment, a node
segment and a binding segment of the path when one proxied node failures..

 

Best Regards

 

Aijun Wang

China Telecom

 

From: spring-bounces@ietf.org  On Behalf Of
bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:19 PM
To: SPRING WG 
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa
rding/

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.


 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________
 
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Hi, All:
 
I have read this draft and support its =
adoption.
It can provide the restoration of the routes to an =
adjacency segment, a node segment and a binding segment of the path when =
one proxied node failures..
 =

Best Regards
 
Aijun Wang
China Telecom
 
From: =
spring-bounces@ietf.org <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of =
bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 =
6:19 PM
To: SPRING WG =
<spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Dear =
WG,
 
This message =
starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segme=
nt-routing-proxy-forwarding/
 
After review =
of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the =
document to the mailing list.
 
Please also =
provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as this is a =
stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a =
vote.     
 
If you are =
willing to work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. =
This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people in the =
working group willing to work on the document.
 
Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, =
Joel
_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des =
informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent =
donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si =
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signaler
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Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete =
altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
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privileged information that may be protected by =
law;
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Hi Thomas,

I've read the draft and have some questions.
1) RFC 9160 introduces new protocol types for SR-MPLS top label. Considering that the MPLS top label is always the label to be processed, the user can know which protocol the SR-MPLS SID to be processed is learned from.
But this draft describes the routing protocol where the last SRv6 segment has been learned from, instead of the SRv6 segment to be processed by the current hop. 
As for my understanding, the current draft is inconsistent with RFC 9160 in this aspect.

2) Related to point 1，in SR-MPLS, exporting the top label can provide the information of the segment to be processed, but in SRv6, segment list and segments left(currently not defined in the draft) are both needed to provide the similar information. 

2) Element for SRH TLV is not defined in the draft, what's the consideration about that?

Best Regards,
Yao



------------------原始邮件------------------
发件人：Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com
收件人：spring@ietf.org;
日 期 ：2022年01月15日 17:27
主 题 ：[spring] New Version Notification for draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
Dear SPRING working group,
Following up on just released RFC 9160 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9160), IPFIX code points for MPLS Segment Routing,
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh has been submitted for the SRV6 data-plane.
The document aims to be on par with MPLS-SR. Describe the routing protocol or PCEP extension where the last SRv6 segment has been learned from, the SRv6 segment list and all other properties from the Segment Routing header.
I would appreciate your document review and feedback.
I aim to present at IETF 113 at OPSAWG and SPRING and request adoption at OPSAWG.
Best wishes
Thomas
-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org 
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2022 10:12 AM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-TCZ-ZH1 
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
A new version of I-D, draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Thomas Graf and posted to the IETF repository.
Name:        draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh
Revision:    00
Title:        Export of Segment Routing IPv6 Information in IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)
Document date:    2022-01-15
Group:        Individual Submission
Pages:        9
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh/
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh
Abstract:
This document introduces new IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) code
points to identify which traffic is being forwarded with which
Segemnt Routing Header dimensions based on which SRv6 control plane
protocol.
The IETF Secretariat
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


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From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" 
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG 
Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi WG,

I've read this document and support its adoption.

Best regards,
Jie

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@o=
range.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:19 PM
To: SPRING WG 
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
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Hi WG,



 


I’ve read this document and supp=
ort its adoption.



 


Best regards,


Jie


 








From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:19 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.      &=
nbsp;  



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.








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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Segment Protection for SR-TE Paths
        Authors         : Shraddha Hegde
                          Chris Bowers
                          Stephane Litkowski
                          Xiaohu Xu
                          Feng Xu
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths-02.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2022-01-21

Abstract:
   Segment routing supports the creation of explicit paths using Adj-
   Segment-ID (SID), Node-SIDs, and BSIDs.  It is important to provide
   fast reroute (FRR) mechanisms to respond to failures of links and
   nodes in the Segment-Routed Traffic-Engineered(SR-TE) path.  A point
   of local repair (PLR) can provide FRR protection against the failure
   of a link in an SR-TE path by examining only the first (top) label in
   the SR label stack.  In order to protect against the failure of a
   node, a PLR may need to examine the second label in the stack as
   well, in order to determine SR-TE path beyond the failed node.  This
   document specifies how a PLR can use the first and second label in
   the SR-MPLS label stack describing an SR-TE path to provide
   protection against node failures.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths-02


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s"
Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

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From yaojunda@huawei.com  Sun Jan 23 22:10:28 2022
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From: yaojunda 
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG , "draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
Thread-Index: AdgIZrGtJ4kNOcThSViQ7BuFbn/8LgIgja1Q
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 06:10:18 +0000
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Hi WG,

    I'm not aware of any undisclosed IPR related to this draft.

Best Regards,
Junda Yao

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:18 PM
To: SPRING WG ; draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding@ietf.org
Subject: IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

Hi authors, contributors, WG

In preparation of the WG adoption call on draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-p=
roxy-forwarding [1], this email starts a poll for IPR.

If you are an author or contributor to the subject document, please respond=
 to this email.
-       In your response, please indicate if all relevant IPR has been disc=
losed.
-       If you know of relevant IPR that has not been disclosed, please sta=
te that and describe how this gap is being addressed.

Even if you are not a contributor or author, if you know of relevant IPR, p=
lease ensure that it has been dislosed as discussed in BCP 79.

If you know of someone else IPR that you believe is relevant and not disclo=
sed, please file a third party IPR disclosure.

Thanks,
Regards,
Bruno, Jim, Joel
[1]        https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding/

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

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--_000_291e5d60084a413a82ea74bb64ba785fhuaweicom_
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Hi WG,


 =



    I'm n=
ot aware of any undisclosed IPR related to this draft.

 =



Best Regards,=



Junda Yao


 






From:<=
/span> bruno.decraene@orange=
.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]


Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:18 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; draft-hu-spring-segment-routi=
ng-proxy-forwarding@ietf.org

Subject: IPR poll - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding=







 


Hi authors, contributors, WG


 


In preparation of the WG adoption call on draft-hu-sp=
ring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding [1], this email starts a poll for IPR=
.


 


If you are an author or contributor to the subject do=
cument, please respond to this email.



-      
In your response, please indicate if all rele=
vant IPR has been disclosed.        =
;            &n=
bsp;            =
;            &n=
bsp;           




-      
If you know of relevant IPR that has not been=
 disclosed, please state that and describe how this gap is being addressed.=



 


Even if you are not a contributor or author, if you k=
now of relevant IPR, please ensure that it has been dislosed as discussed i=
n BCP 79.


 


If you know of someone else IPR that you believe is r=
elevant and not disclosed, please file a third party IPR disclosure.


 


Thanks,


Regards,


Bruno, Jim, Joel


[1]       

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/          &nbs=
p;            &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p;             =
      



____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


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ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


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--_000_291e5d60084a413a82ea74bb64ba785fhuaweicom_--


From nobody Sun Jan 23 22:16:29 2022
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From: yaojunda 
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG 
Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
Thread-Index: AdgIZuyr9yYdtjOrSFSQcPhMc9AmsAIgs5YQ
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 06:16:16 +0000
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Hi WG,

I support its adoption as a co-author. It Provides a complete FRR mechanism=
 for SR-TE Node/Link/Binding Sid failure. Including before IGP convergence,=
 and after IGP convergence to before TE convergence.

Best Regards,
Junda Yao

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@o=
range.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:19 PM
To: SPRING WG 
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

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modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.

--_000_49cdad9f951246378696ca179640c491huaweicom_
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Hi WG,


 


I support its adoption as a co-author. It =
Provides a complete FRR mechanism for SR-TE Node/Link/Binding Sid failure. =
Including before IGP convergence, and
 after IGP convergence to before TE convergence.


 


Best Regards,


Junda Yao


 






From:<=
/span> spring [mailto:spring=
-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 6:19 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending=
 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please indicate support =
(or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons for your support=
 (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support=
 as this is not a vote.       



 


If you are willing to work on or review the document,=
 please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the e=
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Subject: Re: [spring]  =?utf-8?q?New_Version_Notification_for_draft-tgraf-opsa?= =?utf-8?q?wg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00=2Etxt?=
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Hi Thomas,

Please see inline [Yao].

Best Regards,
Yao
------------------原始邮件------------------
发件人：Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com
收件人：刘尧00165286;
抄送人：spring@ietf.org;
日 期 ：2022年01月23日 01:16
主 题 ：Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
Hi Yao,
Many thanks for the review and feedback.
> 1) But this draft describes the routing protocol where the last SRv6 segment has been learned from, instead of the SRv6 segment to be processed by the current hop.
I am going to rephrase the sentences to refer to the active segment. Which should make it less ambiguous.
> 2) but in SRv6, segment list and segments left(currently not defined in the draft) are both needed to provide the similar information.
Could you elaborate the use case for segments left in this context. This document covers all dimensions being present in the SRv6 segment routing header described in section of RFC8754 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc8754#section-2) with the exception of "Last Entry".
[Yao] Segments left is one of the elements to identify an SRH. For example, (SA,DA=SIDB) (SIDB,SIDC,SIDB,SIDA; SL=2) and (SA,DA=SIDB) (SIDB,SIDC,SIDB,SIDA; SL=0) are different. So I think segments left is also useful when exporting SRv6 information.
> 3) Element for SRH TLV is not defined in the draft, what's the consideration about that?
Could you elaborate further please. The document refers to RFC 8754 where the SRH TLV is being described.
[Yao] I mean that IPFIX IE for SRH TLV is not defined in the draft while other main elements of SRH(SRHFlags,SRHTag,ipv6SRHSegmentList...) are defined. What if the user want to export the SRH TLV info of the packets?
Best wishes
Thomas
-----Original Message-----
From: liu.yao71@zte.com.cn 
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2022 10:23 AM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-TCZ-ZH1 
Cc: spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re:[spring] New Version Notification for draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
Hi Thomas,
I've read the draft and have some questions.
1) RFC 9160 introduces new protocol types for SR-MPLS top label. Considering that the MPLS top label is always the label to be processed, the user can know which protocol the SR-MPLS SID to be processed is learned from.
But this draft describes the routing protocol where the last SRv6 segment has been learned from, instead of the SRv6 segment to be processed by the current hop.
As for my understanding, the current draft is inconsistent with RFC 9160 in this aspect.
2) Related to point 1，in SR-MPLS, exporting the top label can provide the information of the segment to be processed, but in SRv6, segment list and segments left(currently not defined in the draft) are both needed to provide the similar information.
2) Element for SRH TLV is not defined in the draft, what's the consideration about that?
Best Regards,
Yao
------------------原始邮件------------------
发件人：Thomas.Graf@swisscom.com
收件人：spring@ietf.org;
日 期 ：2022年01月15日 17:27
主 题 ：[spring] New Version Notification for draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
Dear SPRING working group,
Following up on just released RFC 9160 (https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Frfc9160&data=04%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf855d5968f794d84c0dd08d9dbf67ec5%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C637782673999731326%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=0Ia7sA28DLJj994BZqOC6I0yARDGarhWPDAhnejuCyg%3D&reserved=0), IPFIX code points for MPLS Segment Routing,
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh&data=04%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf855d5968f794d84c0dd08d9dbf67ec5%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C637782673999731326%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qg5ezdJhAi2sdS3%2Fcz3mdvPyiVAd6YmIlr%2BXb1vy%2FJ8%3D&reserved=0 has been submitted for the SRV6 data-plane.
The document aims to be on par with MPLS-SR. Describe the routing protocol or PCEP extension where the last SRv6 segment has been learned from, the SRv6 segment list and all other properties from the Segment Routing header.
I would appreciate your document review and feedback.
I aim to present at IETF 113 at OPSAWG and SPRING and request adoption at OPSAWG.
Best wishes
Thomas
-----Original Message-----
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org 
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2022 10:12 AM
To: Graf Thomas, INI-NET-TCZ-ZH1 
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
A new version of I-D, draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Thomas Graf and posted to the IETF repository.
Name:        draft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh
Revision:    00
Title:        Export of Segment Routing IPv6 Information in IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX)
Document date:    2022-01-15
Group:        Individual Submission
Pages:        9
URL:            https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Farchive%2Fid%2Fdraft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh-00.txt&data=04%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf855d5968f794d84c0dd08d9dbf67ec5%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C637782673999731326%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=%2BEJY%2F%2Bxf7McrFQLXSveoc3OQh8XoWl56NoDE5GCROyo%3D&reserved=0
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Htmlized:       https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-tgraf-opsawg-ipfix-srv6-srh&data=04%7C01%7CThomas.Graf%40swisscom.com%7Cf855d5968f794d84c0dd08d9dbf67ec5%7C364e5b87c1c7420d9beec35d19b557a1%7C0%7C0%7C637782673999731326%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=qg5ezdJhAi2sdS3%2Fcz3mdvPyiVAd6YmIlr%2BXb1vy%2FJ8%3D&reserved=0
Abstract:
This document introduces new IP Flow Information Export (IPFIX) code points to identify which traffic is being forwarded with which Segemnt Routing Header dimensions based on which SRv6 control plane protocol.
The IETF Secretariat
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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi,

 

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

 

1.	The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this
problem, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions
for the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create
deployment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.

 

2.	Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without
adding a strong value.

 

The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] .
may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not
supporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat
and requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.

 

Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the
extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't support
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 

 

Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]

 

Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G
may have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution
allows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the
solution will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all
routers upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path
to F'. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work
tactically depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion
of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to
upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is
there. 

 

In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the
failed node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic
congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this
traffic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes
to this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some
part of the same path before reaching the destination.

 

So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.

 

 

3.	Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may
be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of
burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING (see next comment).

 

Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the
control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is
orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding
operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not
expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.

 

4.	The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as
it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.

 

 

 

Brgds,

 

Stephane

 

 

From: spring  On Behalf Of
bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG 
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa
rding/

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.


 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________
 
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Hi,
 
I’m =
NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:
 
  1. The WG already have a =
WG document which is dealing with this problem, I don’t think that =
WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for the same solution =
space as it may just confuse the industry and create deployment issues =
as different vendors may pick different =
solutions.
 
  1. Adding protocols =
extensions adds complexity in the solution without adding a strong =
value.
 
The document =
claims that “[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] =
… may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network =
not supporting this solution.”. While this is true, the proposed =
solution in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly =
the same caveat and requires all nodes in the network to support the =
solution.
 
Considering the =
following straight line network: A -B -C -D – E – F - G -H =
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support =
the extension to make the solution working, if one of the router =
doesn’t support the extension, traffic will be dropped. =

 
Then, there is no =
value compared to the timer-based solution of =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
 
Authors of =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G may have =
multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and the =
solution allows for F’ to support the extension while F may not =
support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’. Well yes, =
but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to support this =
extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’t =
think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically depending =
on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the network, =
but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrade all =
their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there. =

 
In addition, in =
term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the failed node =
which wasn’t initially on the path, could lead to traffic =
congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry =
this traffic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where =
traffic goes to this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then =
goes back over some part of the same path before reaching the =
destination.
 
So these protocol =
extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.
 
 
  1. Regarding BSID, =
I’m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds =
or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden =
in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING =
(see next comment).
 
Note that =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work with =
BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the =
control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling =
is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The =
forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in =
details, we could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups =
without any perf degradation.
 
  1. The document is =
currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good =
details about IGP protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it =
should detail reqs for protocols but nothing =
beyond.
 
 
 
Brgds,
 
Stephane
 
 
From: spring =
<spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of =
bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 =
11:19
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: =
[spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Dear =
WG,
 
This message =
starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segme=
nt-routing-proxy-forwarding/
 
After review =
of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the =
document to the mailing list.
 
Please also =
provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as this is a =
stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a =
vote.      
 
If you are =
willing to work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. =
This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people in the =
working group willing to work on the document.
 
Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, =
Joel
_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des =
informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent =
donc
pas etre diffuses, =
exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par =
erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. =
Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,
Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.
 
This =
message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged =
information that may be protected by =
law;
they should not be =
distributed, used or copied without =
authorisation.
If you have =
received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this =
message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages =
that have been modified, changed or =
falsified.
Thank =
you.

------=_NextPart_000_0693_01D81217.41BC8010--


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From: Huzhibo 
To: "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG' 
Thread-Topic: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi slitkows :

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

Thanks

Zhibo Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gm=
ail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

1)      The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this proble=
m, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for =
the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create depl=
oyment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.
-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behav=
iors to implement SR-TE node protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node protection. It optimized the number of e=
ntries in the Context Table. This solution solves the connectivity problem =
after IGP convergence, and protects binding segments.


2)      Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without=
 adding a strong value.



The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] =
... may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not su=
pporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in draf=
t-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat an=
d requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.



Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H =
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support th=
e extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't supp=
ort the extension, traffic will be dropped.



Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.ietf-s=
pring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]



Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G m=
ay have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution all=
ows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the solutio=
n will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all router=
s upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path to F'=
. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tacticall=
y depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the =
network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgra=
de all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there.



In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the fa=
iled node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic congest=
ion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traffi=
c. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to th=
is non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some par=
t of the same path before reaching the destination.



So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node tha=
t can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be=
 forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol =
extension is necessary.
This solution does not require that all network nodes support this extensio=
n, take the example you have mentioned :
but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extensio=
n ---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment i=
s node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds th=
e PF
node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C a=
nd D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.
In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In=
 addition, slow deletion is required for node faults. In addition, loop pre=
vention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately dire=
ct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding.

3)      Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there ma=
y be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot =
of burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in=
 SPRING (see next comment).


Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the c=
ontrol-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is o=
rthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding ope=
rations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not ex=
pect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.
-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and d=
o not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segme=
nts do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing a=
nd forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.SR-TE p=
rotection
takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path conver=
ges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal forward=
ing,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is accepta=
ble.

4)      The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR a=
s it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING =
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.
                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail reque=
sts for IGP protocols



Brgds,

Stephane


From: spring > On B=
ehalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.

--_000_0a418bde57354add875c44f02d18213dhuaweicom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi
slitkows :


 


Thanks for your comments, Please se=
e inline.


 


Thanks


 


Zhibo Hu






From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM

To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi 


 


I’m NOT supporting this d=
raft for the following reasons:


 



1=
)   &=
nbsp; 
The WG already have a W=
G document which is dealing with this problem, I don’t think that WG =
should come with multiple documents/solutions for the same solution space a=
s it may just confuse the industry and create
 deployment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.<=
/o:p>


-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] =
defines local behaviors to implement SR-TE node
 protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-T=
E node protection. It
optimi=
zed the number of entries in the Context Table.
This s=
olution solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects=
 binding segments.


 =




2=
)   &=
nbsp; 
Adding protocols extens=
ions adds complexity in the solution without adding a strong value.


 =



The document claims that “[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr=
-te-paths] … may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the=
 network not supporting this solution.”. While this
 is true, the proposed solution in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding has exactly the same caveat and requires all nodes in the network =
to support the solution.


 


Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D – E =
– F - G -H and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F h=
ave to support the extension to make the solution
 working, if one of the router doesn’t support the extension, traffic=
 will be dropped.



 


Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.i=
etf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]


 


Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued tha=
t G may have multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and=
 the solution allows for F’ to support the extension
 while F may not support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’=
. Well yes, but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to sup=
port this extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’=
;t think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically
 depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the n=
etwork, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrad=
e all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there.



 


In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of t=
he failed node which wasn’t initially on the path, could lead to traf=
fic congestion or high traffic peaks on links
 that were not sized to carry this traffic. We could easily expect some tra=
ffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this non-natural neighbor of the fai=
led node and then goes back over some part of the same path before reaching=
 the destination.


 


So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here=
.


---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct tr=
affic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding
 and solve the problem that traffic cannot be forwarded to a proxy forwardi=
ng node after IGP convergence. This protocol extension is necessary.


This solution does not require that=
 all network nodes support this extension, take the example you have mentio=
ned :


but it still requires that all rout=
ers upstream to F' support this extension ---> This
 description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is node B, w=
hen node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the PF


node F'=
 adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and D do=
 not support this protocol extension, this
 is not affected.



In addition, =
the Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-s=
r-te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In addition, sl=
ow deletion is required for node faults.
 In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it =
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwardin=
g.


 



3=
)   &=
nbsp; 
Regarding BSID, I’=
;m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds or thousand=
s of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden in IGP. The pro=
posed way will have to be discussed in LSR,
 not in SPRING (see next comment).


 


Note that [I-D.ietf-spri=
ng-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work with BSIDs as long as BS=
ID information of failed node is available in the control-plane of PLRs by =
whatever mechanism. I think this BSID
 handling is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The =
forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, w=
e could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf =
degradation.


-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only betw=
een neighbors and do not need to be flooded to
 the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments do not exert pressure o=
n IGP performance.The control-plane processing and forwarding-plane process=
ing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.SR-TE protection    =
;


takes effect only from the time duri=
ng a fault occurs to the TE path converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection doe=
s not take effect during normal forwarding,Compared
 with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is acceptable.


 



4=
)   &=
nbsp; 
The document is current=
ly a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good details abou=
t IGP protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it should detail req=
s for protocols but nothing beyond.


           =
;     ------->As you said, this document defines the detail
 requests for IGP protocols


 


 


 


Brgds,


 


Stephane


 


 






From: spring <spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of bruno.decr=
aene@orange.com

Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.     



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.






--_000_0a418bde57354add875c44f02d18213dhuaweicom_--


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From: 
To: "'Huzhibo'" , , "'SPRING WG'" 
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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

From: Huzhibo  
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG'

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi slitkows :

 

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

 

Thanks

 

Zhibo Hu

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING
WG'  >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi 

 

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

 

1.	The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this
problem, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions
for the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create
deployment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.

-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local
behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection.
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node
protection. 

 

It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution
solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding
segments.

 

[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion
below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion.
As there is already a WG doc, I don't see any reason for creating another
one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.

 

 

2.	Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without
adding a strong value.

 

The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] .
may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not
supporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat
and requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.

 

Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the
extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't support
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 

 

Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]

 

Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G
may have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution
allows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the
solution will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all
routers upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path
to F'. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work
tactically depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion
of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to
upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is
there. 

 

In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the
failed node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic
congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this
traffic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes
to this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some
part of the same path before reaching the destination.

 

So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.

---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that
can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol
extension is necessary.

This solution does not require that all network nodes support this
extension, take the example you have mentioned :

but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extension
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is
node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the
PF

node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C
and D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.

 

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

 

In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols,
but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required for node faults.
In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy
forwarding.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

 

 

3.	Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may
be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of
burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING (see next comment).

 

Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the
control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is
orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding
operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not
expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.

-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do
not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing and
forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.

 

[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and
forwarding aspects could be further described in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is
interesting to solve.

 

 

SR-TE protection    

takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal
forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is
acceptable.

 

4.	The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as
it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.

                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail
requests for IGP protocols

[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding: 

"For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called

   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a

   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello

   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)

   [RFC7356].

 

This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to
be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.

 

 

 

 

 

Brgds,

 

Stephane

 

 

From: spring  > On
Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com  
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG  >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa
rding/

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.


 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________
 
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Hi,
 
Please find more inline.
 
From: Huzhibo =
<huzhibo@huawei.com> 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 =
09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG =
adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi =
slitkows =
:
=
 
Thank=
s for your comments, Please see inline.
=
 
Thank=
s
=
 
Zhibo=
 Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi 
 
I’m =
NOT supporting this draft for the following =
reasons:
 
  1. The WG already have a WG document =
which is dealing with this problem, I don’t think that WG should =
come with multiple documents/solutions for the same solution space as it =
may just confuse the industry and create deployment issues as different =
vendors may pick different solutions.
-----> =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behaviors =
to implement SR-TE node protection. =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node =
protection. <=
/p>
 
It optim=
ized the number of entries in the Context Table. This =
solution solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and =
protects binding segments.
 
[SLI] While =
I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion below), =
this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion. As =
there is already a WG doc, I don’t see any reason for creating =
another one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing =
readers.
 
 
  1. Adding protocols extensions adds =
complexity in the solution without adding a strong =
value.
 
The document claims that =
“[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] … may not =
work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not supporting =
this solution.”. While this is true, the proposed solution in =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same =
caveat and requires all nodes in the network to support the =
solution.
 
Considering the following straight =
line network: A -B -C -D – E – F - G -H and an SR policy =
from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the extension to =
make the solution working, if one of the router doesn’t support =
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 
 
Then, there is no value compared to =
the timer-based solution of =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
 
Authors of =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G may have =
multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and the =
solution allows for F’ to support the extension while F may not =
support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’. Well yes, =
but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to support this =
extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’t =
think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically depending =
on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the network, =
but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrade all =
their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there. =

 
In addition, in term of traffic, =
forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the failed node which wasn’t =
initially on the path, could lead to traffic congestion or high traffic =
peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traffic. We could =
easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this =
non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some =
part of the same path before reaching the =
destination.
 
So these protocol extensions are =
bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> =
Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that can =
perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be =
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This =
protocol extension is necessary.
This =
solution does not require that all network nodes support this extension, =
take the example you have mentioned :
but =
it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this =
extension =
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous =
segment is node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the =
node B finds the PF
node =
F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and =
D do not support this protocol extension, this is not =
affected.
 
 
[SLI] Your statement is purely =
theoretical and life in real networks is not theoretical. You cannot =
predict which router will converge first (routers may have different =
CPUs, may have different tasks to execute…). B may converge first =
maybe, but maybe it will be C or D… no one knows and it’s =
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to =
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.
 
In =
addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend =
protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required =
for node faults. In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent =
loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can =
perform proxy forwarding.
[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and =
at the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the =
failure. It’s the solution, but it has major drawbacks from an =
operational point of view.
 
 
  1. Regarding BSID, I’m not fan =
of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds or thousands of =
BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden in IGP. The =
proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING (see next =
comment).
 
Note =
that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in =
the control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID =
handling is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. =
The forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in =
details, we could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups =
without any perf degradation.
-------> =
Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do not =
need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments =
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing =
and forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly =
coupled.<=
/p>
 
[SLI] =
Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in =
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and =
forwarding aspects could be further described in  =
;[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that =
BSID is interesting to solve.
 
 
SR-TE=
 protection    
takes=
 effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path =
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during =
normal forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance =
degradation is acceptable.<=
/p>
=
 
  1. The document is currently a bit =
borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good details about IGP =
protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it should detail reqs =
for protocols but nothing beyond.
 =
;            =
   ------->As =
you said, this document defines the detail requests for IGP =
protocols
[SLI] No it goes beyond =
requirements and already talks about encoding: =

“For =
supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, =
called
   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It =
contains a binding SID and a
   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV =
may be advertised in IS-IS Hello
   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped =
Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)
   [RFC7356].
 
This is not =
a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to be =
discussed in LSR not in SPRING.
 
 
=
 
 
 
Brgds,
 
Stephane
 
 
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> =
On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.comSent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG =
<spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Dear WG,
 
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending =
27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segme=
nt-routing-proxy-forwarding/
 
After review of the document please indicate support (or =
not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing =
list.
 
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or =
lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support =
as this is not a vote.      =

 
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please =
state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy =
level of people in the working group willing to work on the =
document.
 
Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel
________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________________________=
________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes =
peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne =
doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies =
sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si =
ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may =
contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by =
law;
they should not be distributed, used or =
copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in =
error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its =
attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not =
liable for messages that have been modified, changed or =
falsified.
Thank =
you.

------=_NextPart_000_07FC_01D8129A.A2EAF3C0--



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From: Huzhibo 
To: "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG' 
Thread-Topic: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi,

Please find more inline.


From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi,

Please find more inline.

From: Huzhibo >
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi slitkows :

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

Thanks

Zhibo Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gm=
ail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG=
' >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

1)      The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this proble=
m, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for =
the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create depl=
oyment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.
-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behav=
iors to implement SR-TE node protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node protection.

It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution solv=
es the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding seg=
ments.

[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion=
 below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion=
. As there is already a WG doc, I don't see any reason for creating another=
 one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.


2)      Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without=
 adding a strong value.



The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] =
... may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not su=
pporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in draf=
t-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat an=
d requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.



Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H =
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support th=
e extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't supp=
ort the extension, traffic will be dropped.



Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.ietf-s=
pring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]



Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G m=
ay have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution all=
ows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the solutio=
n will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all router=
s upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path to F'=
. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tacticall=
y depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the =
network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgra=
de all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there.



In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the fa=
iled node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic congest=
ion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traffi=
c. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to th=
is non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some par=
t of the same path before reaching the destination.



So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node tha=
t can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be=
 forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol =
extension is necessary.
This solution does not require that all network nodes support this extensio=
n, take the example you have mentioned :
but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extensio=
n ---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment i=
s node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds th=
e PF
node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C a=
nd D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.


[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute...). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D... no one knows and it's unp=
redictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, =
all routers have to support the mechanism.
                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-T=
E rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in =
the previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter=
 than the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network =
do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenar=
ios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result=
 in better convergence performance.

In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In=
 addition, slow deletion is required for node faults. In addition, loop pre=
vention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately dire=
ct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding.
[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major drawback=
s from an operational point of view.
   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document onl=
y filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, d=
ifferent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to=
 different PF nodes.

3)      Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there ma=
y be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot =
of burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in=
 SPRING (see next comment).


Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the c=
ontrol-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is o=
rthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding ope=
rations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not ex=
pect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.
-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and d=
o not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segme=
nts do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing a=
nd forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.

[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPR=
ING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and forward=
ing aspects could be further described in  [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protect=
ion-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is interesting to solve.
   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of =
it into the LSR.


SR-TE protection
takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path conver=
ges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal forward=
ing,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is accepta=
ble.

4)      The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR a=
s it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING =
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.
                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail reque=
sts for IGP protocols
[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding:

"For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called
   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a
   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello
   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)
   [RFC7356].

This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has t=
o be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.
--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it =
into the LSR.





Brgds,

Stephane


From: spring > On B=
ehalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.

--_000_2a26a47a258d49c8ab9a3a197cf5eac9huaweicom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi,


 


Please find more inline.


 


 






From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; '=
SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi,


 


Please find more inline.


 






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawe=
i.com>


Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi
slitkows :


 


Thanks for your comments, Please se=
e inline.


 


Thanks


 


Zhibo Hu






From: spring [mailto:sprin=
g-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of slitkows.iet=
f@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.=
org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi 


 


I’m NOT supporting this d=
raft for the following reasons:


 



1)     
The WG already have a W=
G document which is dealing with this problem, I don’t think that WG =
should come with multiple documents/solutions for the same solution space a=
s it may just confuse the industry and create
 deployment issues as different vendors may pic=
k different solutions.


-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defi=
nes local behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection.
 draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node prote=
ction.



&nbs=
p;


It
optimize=
d the number of entries in the Context Table.
This sol=
ution solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects b=
inding segments.


 


[SLI] While I think your argume=
nts are not completely valid (see discussion below), this has nothing to do=
 with the one draft vs two drafts discussion. As there is already a WG doc,=
 I don’t see any reason for creating
 another one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing rea=
ders.


 =




2=
)   &=
nbsp; 
Adding protocols extens=
ions adds complexity in the solution without adding a strong value.


 =



The document claims that “[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr=
-te-paths] … may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the=
 network not supporting this solution.”. While this
 is true, the proposed solution in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding has exactly the same caveat and requires all nodes in the network =
to support the solution.


 


Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D – E =
– F - G -H and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F h=
ave to support the extension to make the solution
 working, if one of the router doesn’t support the extension, traffic=
 will be dropped.



 


Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.i=
etf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]


 


Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued tha=
t G may have multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and=
 the solution allows for F’ to support the extension
 while F may not support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’=
. Well yes, but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to sup=
port this extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’=
;t think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically
 depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the n=
etwork, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrad=
e all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there.



 


In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of t=
he failed node which wasn’t initially on the path, could lead to traf=
fic congestion or high traffic peaks on links
 that were not sized to carry this traffic. We could easily expect some tra=
ffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this non-natural neighbor of the fai=
led node and then goes back over some part of the same path before reaching=
 the destination.


 


So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here=
.


---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffi=
c to a node that can perform proxy forwarding and
 solve the problem that traffic cannot be forwarded to a proxy forwarding n=
ode after IGP convergence. This protocol extension is necessary.=



This solution does not require that a=
ll network nodes support this extension, take the example you have mentione=
d :


but it still requires that all router=
s upstream to F' support this extension ---> This description is inaccur=
ate, assuming that the previous segment is
 node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the=
 PF


node F' a=
djacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and D do n=
ot support this protocol extension, this
 is not affected.


<=
o:p> 


 


[=
SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not =
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers m=
ay have different CPUs, may have different
 tasks to execute…). B may converge first maybe, but maybe it will be=
 C or D… no one knows and it’s unpredictable. So at the end, if=
 you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to support t=
he mechanism.


           =
;         --------->[HZB]IGP con=
vergence is much faster than SR-TE rerouting,
Theref=
ore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous exampl=
e, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergen=
ce time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes
 in the network do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 m=
s in some scenarios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, T=
hat would result in better convergence performance.


<=
o:p> 



In addition, th=
e Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-=
te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow=
 deletion is required for node faults.
 In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it =
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwardin=
g.


[=
SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have=
 serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has no=
thing to do with the failure. It’s the
 solution, but it has major drawbacks from an operational point of view.


   --------->[HZB] Sim=
ilar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out the node=
s that do not support PF. For the same fault point, different
 remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to differe=
nt PF nodes.


 



3=
)   &=
nbsp; 
Regarding BSID, I’=
;m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds or thousand=
s of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden in IGP. The pro=
posed way will have to be discussed in LSR,
 not in SPRING (see next comment).


 


Note that [I-D.ietf-spri=
ng-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work with BSIDs as long as BS=
ID information of failed node is available in the control-plane of PLRs by =
whatever mechanism. I think this BSID
 handling is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The =
forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, w=
e could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf =
degradation.


-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between =
neighbors and do not need to be flooded to the
 entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments do not exert pressure on IG=
P performance.The control-plane processing and forwarding-plane processing =
of the BSID are not strongly coupled.


 


[SLI] Control plane aspects of =
IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING. So please take the discuss=
ion to LSR for the control plane and forwarding aspects could be further de=
scribed in
 =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
if WGs agrees that B=
SID is interesting to solve.


   --------->[HZB]Sure=
.
We wil=
l consider whether we need to divest some of it into the LSR.


 


 


SR-TE protection    <=
/o:p>


takes effect only from the time during=
 a fault occurs to the TE path converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does =
not take effect during normal forwarding,Compared
 with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is acceptable.


 



4=
)   &=
nbsp; 
The document is current=
ly a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good details abou=
t IGP protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it should detail req=
s for protocols but nothing beyond.


            &=
nbsp;   --=
----->As
 you said, this document defines the detail requests for IGP protocols=



[SLI] No it goes beyond require=
ments and already talks about encoding:





=
“For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called



   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It=
 contains a binding SID and a



   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV m=
ay be advertised in IS-IS Hello



   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Li=
nk State PDUs (CS-LSP)



   [RFC7356].




 


This is not a requirement; this=
 is an IS-IS solution description that has to be discussed in LSR not in SP=
RING.


--------->[HZB]Sure.
We wil=
l consider whether we need to divest some of it into the LSR.


 


 


 


 


 


Brgds,


 


Stephane


 


 






From: spring <spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of bruno.decr=
aene@orange.com

Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.     



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________=



 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informatio=
ns confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vou=
s avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confidential or pri=
vileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisa=
tion.


If you have received this email in error, please notify the send=
er and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that=
 have been modified, changed or falsified.


Thank you.






--_000_2a26a47a258d49c8ab9a3a197cf5eac9huaweicom_--


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Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Segment Routing Policy Architecture
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Ketan Talaulikar
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Alex Bogdanov
                          Paul Mattes
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2022-01-26

Abstract:
   Segment Routing (SR) allows a headend node to steer a packet flow
   along any path.  Intermediate per-path states are eliminated thanks
   to source routing.  The headend node steers a flow into an SR Policy.
   The packets steered into an SR Policy carry an ordered list of
   segments associated with that SR Policy.  This document details the
   concepts of SR Policy and steering into an SR Policy.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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From: Nandan Saha 
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 09:52:06 -0800
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To: spring@ietf.org, draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt
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--000000000000caa20f05d67fdc07
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi folks,
 revision 15 has:

  The color is an unsigned *__non-zero__* 32-bit numerical


This seems like a backwards incompatible change since all this while 0 was
a valid color.
Has this been discussed on the list?
Also, are we going to make changes to
draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy to define the handling for NLRIs
that have color set to 0?

Thanks,
Nandan

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:11 AM  wrote:

>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of
> the IETF.
>
>         Title           : Segment Routing Policy Architecture
>         Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>                           Ketan Talaulikar
>                           Daniel Voyer
>                           Alex Bogdanov
>                           Paul Mattes
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt
>         Pages           : 39
>         Date            : 2022-01-26
>
> Abstract:
>    Segment Routing (SR) allows a headend node to steer a packet flow
>    along any path.  Intermediate per-path states are eliminated thanks
>    to source routing.  The headend node steers a flow into an SR Policy.
>    The packets steered into an SR Policy carry an ordered list of
>    segments associated with that SR Policy.  This document details the
>    concepts of SR Policy and steering into an SR Policy.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/
>
> There is also an htmlized version available at:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15
>
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org:
> :internet-drafts
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

--000000000000caa20f05d67fdc07
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi folks,
=C2=A0revision 15 has:
=
<quote>
=C2=A0 The color is an unsigned __non-zero__ 32-bit numerical =

</quote>

This seems like a ba=
ckwards incompatible change since all this while 0 was a valid color.
=

Has this been discussed on the list?
Also, are we going to m=
ake changes to draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy to define the handl=
ing for NLRIs that have color set to 0?

Thanks,
Nandan

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:11 AM <internet-drafts@ietf.org=
> wrote:


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.

This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of =
the IETF.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Segment Routing Policy Architecture

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Clar=
ence Filsfils

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ketan Talaulikar

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Daniel Voyer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alex Bogdanov

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Paul Mattes

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 39

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2022-01-26



Abstract:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing (SR) allows a headend node to steer a packet f=
low

=C2=A0 =C2=A0along any path.=C2=A0 Intermediate per-path states are elimina=
ted thanks

=C2=A0 =C2=A0to source routing.=C2=A0 The headend node steers a flow into a=
n SR Policy.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The packets steered into an SR Policy carry an ordered list of=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0segments associated with that SR Policy.=C2=A0 This document d=
etails the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0concepts of SR Policy and steering into an SR Policy.





The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:

https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/



There is also an htmlized version available at:

https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15



A diff from the previous version is available at:

https://www.ietf.org/=
rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15





Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-dra=
fts





_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring




--000000000000caa20f05d67fdc07--


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Subject: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, w=
ithout needing to worry about the extension header issue.

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu

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Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a =
network is necessary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culpr=
it for poor QoS but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when wor=
king with some efficient planning algorithm,
 to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Activ=
e Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach wh=
ich can support different options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, wi=
thout needing to worry about the extension header
 issue.  


 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very w=
elcome. I’d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in sc=
ope and should be adopted by the working group.  If you are interested=
 in contributing to this work, please also let
 me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/=



 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






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From: Greg Mirsky 
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2022 15:01:19 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
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Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the
concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft
 it seems
to me like adding the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right
thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song  wrote=
:

> Hi SPRING WG,
>
>
>
> Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary
> to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard
> to catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficien=
t
> planning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6
> In-situ Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement
> approach which can support different
>
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement
protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an
acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions,
including the SRPM draft
,
comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.

> options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry
> about the extension header issue.
>
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

>
>
> Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I=E2=80=99d l=
ike to
> know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopte=
d
> by the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work=
,
> please also let me know.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/
>
>
>
> Thank you very much!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Haoyu
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>

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Hi Haoyu,
thank you =
for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the concept of A=
ctive IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft=C2=A0it seems to me lik=
e adding the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.=
=C2=A0
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> =
tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, =
2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <=
haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote:











Hi SPRING WG,


=C2=A0


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a =
network is necessary to detect =C2=A0gray failures, which are the key culpr=
it for poor QoS but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when wor=
king with some efficient planning algorithm,
 to achieve that with low cost. =C2=A0=C2=A0Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Activ=
e Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple =C2=A0active measurement approach wh=
ich can support different
GIM>> I wo=
nder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protocols, e.g.,=
 STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym). It appear=
s to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including the SRPM =
draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.=C2=A0<=
/div>
 options of IOAM and other OAM meth=
ods in SRv6, without needing to worry about the extension header
 issue. =C2=A0
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm=
-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0In terms=
 of the classification given
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC7799] IOAM could=
 be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change=
=C2=A0that?


=C2=A0


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very w=
elcome. I=E2=80=99d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in =
scope and should be adopted by the working group.=C2=A0 If you are interest=
ed in contributing to this work, please also let
 me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/


=C2=A0


Thank you very much!


=C2=A0


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring




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From: Tianran Zhou 
To: Greg Mirsky , Haoyu Song 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Ketan Talaulikar 
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 10:01:08 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Nandan Saha 
Cc: SPRING WG , draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000041421e05d688ca2e"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt
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Hi Nandan,

The comment for clarification on zero value came during the Last-Call
review:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/d7XCsWsbiTyE588nHNrKhl4woYQ/

There have been previous discussions/suggestions on the list for the color
value 0. I am not able to readily find those threads.

We can revert this change to include the value 0 as a valid color if there
are concerns. Please let us know.

The draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy points to the SPRING draft for
validation so there would not need to be any changes in there.

Thanks,
Ketan


On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 11:22 PM Nandan Saha  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>  revision 15 has:
> 
>   The color is an unsigned *__non-zero__* 32-bit numerical
> 
>
> This seems like a backwards incompatible change since all this while 0 was
> a valid color.
> Has this been discussed on the list?
> Also, are we going to make changes to
> draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy to define the handling for NLRIs
> that have color set to 0?
>
> Thanks,
> Nandan
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:11 AM  wrote:
>
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG
>> of the IETF.
>>
>>         Title           : Segment Routing Policy Architecture
>>         Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>>                           Ketan Talaulikar
>>                           Daniel Voyer
>>                           Alex Bogdanov
>>                           Paul Mattes
>>         Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt
>>         Pages           : 39
>>         Date            : 2022-01-26
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    Segment Routing (SR) allows a headend node to steer a packet flow
>>    along any path.  Intermediate per-path states are eliminated thanks
>>    to source routing.  The headend node steers a flow into an SR Policy.
>>    The packets steered into an SR Policy carry an ordered list of
>>    segments associated with that SR Policy.  This document details the
>>    concepts of SR Policy and steering into an SR Policy.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/
>>
>> There is also an htmlized version available at:
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15
>>
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org:
>> :internet-drafts
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>
>

--00000000000041421e05d688ca2e
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Hi Nandan,

The comment for clarificatio=
n on zero value came during the Last-Call review:=C2=A0https://m=
ailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/d7XCsWsbiTyE588nHNrKhl4woYQ/
<=
div>
There have been previous discussions/suggestions on the =
list for the color value 0. I am not able to readily find those threads.

We can revert this change to include the value 0 as =
a valid color if there are concerns. Please let us know.

The draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy points to the SPRING dr=
aft for validation so there would not need to be any changes in there.

Thanks,
Ketan


=

On Wed, Ja=
n 26, 2022 at 11:22 PM Nandan Saha <nandan@arista.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
=C2=A0revision =
15 has:
<quote>
=C2=A0 The color is an =
unsigned __non-zero__=
 32-bit numerical 
</quote>

Th=
is seems like a backwards incompatible change since all this while 0 was a =
valid color.
Has this been discussed on the list?
Also,=
 are we going to make changes to draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy t=
o define the handling for NLRIs that have color set to 0?

Thanks,
Nandan

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:11 AM &=
lt;internet-d=
rafts@ietf.org> wrote:


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.

This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of =
the IETF.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Segment Routing Policy Architecture

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Clar=
ence Filsfils

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ketan Talaulikar

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Daniel Voyer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alex Bogdanov

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Paul Mattes

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 39

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2022-01-26



Abstract:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing (SR) allows a headend node to steer a packet f=
low

=C2=A0 =C2=A0along any path.=C2=A0 Intermediate per-path states are elimina=
ted thanks

=C2=A0 =C2=A0to source routing.=C2=A0 The headend node steers a flow into a=
n SR Policy.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The packets steered into an SR Policy carry an ordered list of=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0segments associated with that SR Policy.=C2=A0 This document d=
etails the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0concepts of SR Policy and steering into an SR Policy.





The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:

https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/



There is also an htmlized version available at:

https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15



A diff from the previous version is available at:

https://www.ietf.org/=
rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15





Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-dra=
fts





_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring






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From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 00:03:13 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Tianran Zhou 
Cc: Greg Mirsky , Haoyu Song , IETF IPPM WG , "spring@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9bd3605d6893c67"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm]  Active OAM in SRv6
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--000000000000e9bd3605d6893c67
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Hi Haoyu

I think it would be good to identify the problem statement and gap with
existing IPPM WG STAMP, TWAMP PM technologies and why they cannot be
utilized or fall short in what you are trying to achieve with Active OAM in
SRv6.

In-situ IOAM data packets is already possible with SRv6 as mentioned as
this draft mentions below as normative reference.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16

This draft as well mentioned as normative reference draft below provides
OAM ping and traceroute with SRH O flag to SRv6 PGM endpoints and SID list
tracing capabilities very handy for troubleshooting.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-1
3

This draft as well also mentioned as normative reference draft below
provides in-situ IOAM for OAM and PM information can be piggybacked in data
packets in SRH TLV SRv6 PGM SIF function SRv6.TLV recording the operational
and telemetry info in the data packets.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ali-spring-ioam-srv6-05



Thanks

Gyan

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:19 PM Tianran Zhou  wrote:

> Hi Haoyu,
>
>
>
> The application is really interesting and useful.
>
> I am not sure if it is necessary to create a new OAM protocol at transpor=
t
> layer.
>
> IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension based on STAMP could be more
> practical.
>
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.t=
xt
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Tianran
>
>
>
> *From:* ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM
> *To:* Haoyu Song 
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> *Subject:* Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
> thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the
> concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft
>  it
> seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the
> right thing to do.
>
> Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song 
> wrote:
>
> Hi SPRING WG,
>
>
>
> Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary
> to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard
> to catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficien=
t
> planning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6
> In-situ Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement
> approach which can support different
>
> GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement
> protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an
> acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions,
> including the SRPM draft
> ,
> comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
>
> options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry
> about the extension header issue.
>
> GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
>
>    In terms of the classification given
>
>    in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
>
> Does your proposal change that?
>
>
>
> Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I=E2=80=99d l=
ike to
> know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopte=
d
> by the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work=
,
> please also let me know.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/
>
>
>
> Thank you very much!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Haoyu
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>
--=20



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000e9bd3605d6893c67
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Haoyu=C2=A0

I think it would be good to identify the problem statement an=
d gap with existing IPPM WG STAMP, TWAMP PM technologies and why they canno=
t be utilized or fall short in what you are trying to=C2=A0achieve with Act=
ive OAM in SRv6.=C2=A0

I=
n-situ IOAM data packets is already possible with SRv6 as mentioned as this=
 draft mentions below as normative reference.

This draft as well mentioned as normative reference draft below provides=
 OAM ping and traceroute with SRH O flag to SRv6 PGM endpoints and SID list=
 tracing capabilities very handy for troubleshooting.

<=
/div>

This d=
raft as well also mentioned as normative reference draft below provides in-=
situ IOAM for OAM and PM information can be piggybacked in data packets in =
SRH TLV SRv6 PGM SIF function SRv6.TLV recording the operational and teleme=
try info in the data packets.


Thanks=C2=A0

Gyan=C2=A0

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:=
19 PM Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:











Hi Haoyu,


=
=C2=A0


The application is really interesting and us=
eful.


I am not sure if it is necessary to create a=
 new OAM protocol at transport layer.


IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension based =
on STAMP could be more practical.


https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm=
-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt


=
=C2=A0


Best,


Tianran =C2=A0


=
=C2=A0


From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.or=
g]
On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Thursday, January 27,=
 2022 7:01 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spri=
ng@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring=
] Active OAM in SRv6


=C2=A0








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the
IPPM WG draft=C2=A0it seems to me like adding the I=
PPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.=C2=A0






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






=C2=A0






Regards,






Greg






=C2=A0






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurew=
ei.com> wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


=C2=A0


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a =
network is necessary to detect =C2=A0gray failures, which are the key culpr=
it for poor QoS but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost. =C2=A0=C2=A0Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple =C2=A0active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and=
 its extensions, including the
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requ=
irements for SRv6.=C2=A0










options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, witho=
ut needing to worry about the extension header issue. =C2=A0<=
/p>









GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








=C2=A0 =C2=A0In terms of the classification given=







=C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change=C2=A0that?









=C2=A0


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very w=
elcome. I=E2=80=99d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in =
scope and should be adopted by the working group.=C2=A0 If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/<=
/p>

=C2=A0


Thank you very much!


=C2=A0


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring














_______________________________________________

ippm mailing list

ippm@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm




-- 
=

Gyan Mishra
Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0<=
/p>
Email gyan.s.mishra@ver=
izon.com<=
br>
M 301 502-1347




--000000000000e9bd3605d6893c67--


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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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WG,

I  don't support the adoption of this document as a WG document.

I am in agreement with stephane's comments on the list.


  1.  May cause congestion somewhere else in the network
There is already WG adopted document that is addressing the problem space
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.
This draft does not provide significant advantages over the proposed soluti=
ons in
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better s=
olution when all nodes
have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding in=
troduces protocol extensions
and the nodes that aren't upgraded to understand the extensions will drop t=
he traffic so there isn't
any significant improvement in the approach.

In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding may
cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking since it proposes that =
 any neighbor that
claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the protected traffic.

For ex:

[cid:image001.png@01D81379.DDE14C10]

In above diagram
SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5
Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding
On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4
RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path
RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5

In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.

Operationally this solution is very complex to manage. A network that start=
s with no segment protection,
It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have not been upgraded but c=
ausing congestion
somewhere else would be difficult to debug.


  1.  BSID solution
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discus=
s the solution for BSIDs.
Most of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is =
assigned on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. S=
ection 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths discusses th=
is approach.
             draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  provides a p=
rotection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.

 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection problem when anycast soluti=
on is not in use, I would prefer the
              Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spring-segment-pr=
otection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely   different s=
olution based on proxy forwarding which has other implications described in=
 point 1.


Rgds
Shraddha



Juniper Business Use Only
From: spring spring-bounces@ietf.org On Beh=
alf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM
To: SPRING WG 
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
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they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

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Thank you.

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WG,


 


I  don’t support the adoption of this doc=
ument as a WG document.


 


I am in agreement with stephane’s comments on =
the list.


 


    

  1. May cause congestion somewhere else in the network


There is already WG adopted document that is address=
ing the problem space


draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 


This draft does not provide significant advantages o=
ver the proposed solutions in



draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 


draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding cla=
ims to provide better solution when all nodes


have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-rout=
ing-proxy-forwarding introduces protocol extensions


and the nodes that aren’t upgraded to understa=
nd the extensions will drop the traffic so there isn’t


any significant improvement in the approach. 


 


In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-s=
egment-routing-proxy-forwarding may



cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking =
since it proposes that  any neighbor that


claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the =
protected traffic.


 


For ex:


 




 


In above diagram 


SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5 


Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding


On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via=
 RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4


RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path=



RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5


 


In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7-=
>RT4 link 3 times.


 


Operationally this solution is very complex to manag=
e. A network that starts with no segment protection,


It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have =
not been upgraded but causing congestion



somewhere else would be difficult to debug.


 


    

  1. BSID solution


draft-ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discuss the solution for BSIDs.=



Most of the BSID deployme=
nts use anycast based solution where same BSID is assigned on anycast nodes=
 and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. Section 2.2 in draft-ietf-=
spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
 discusses this approach.


        &nbs=
p;    draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  =
;provides a protection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.<=
/o:p>


        &nbs=
p;   


 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection=
 problem when anycast solution is not in use, I would prefer the=



        &nbs=
p;     Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spri=
ng-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely&=
nbsp;  different solution based on proxy forwarding which has other im=
plications described in point 1.


 


 


Rgds


Shraddha


 


 



Juniper Business Use Only






From: spring 
spring-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


<=
span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",san=
s-serif;color:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending=
 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-for=
warding/


 


After review of the document please indicate support =
(or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons for your support=
 (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support=
 as this is not a vote.



 


If you are willing to work on or review the document,=
 please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the e=
nergy level of people in the working group willing
 to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.








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Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi
Shradd=
ha:


 


&=
nbsp;    Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.


 


Thanks


 


Zhibo Hu


 


 






From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:15 PM

To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


WG,


 


I  don=A1=AFt support the =
adoption of this document as a WG document.


 


I am in agreement with stephane=
=A1=AFs comments on the list.


 =




1.  &nbs=
p;   
May cause conges=
tion somewhere else in the network


There is already WG adopted doc=
ument that is addressing the problem space


draft-ietf-spring-segment-prote=
ction-sr-te-paths.



This draft does not provide sig=
nificant advantages over the proposed solutions in



draft-ietf-spring-segment-prote=
ction-sr-te-paths.



draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better solution when all nodes


have not been upgraded. draft-h=
u-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding introduces protocol extensions


and the nodes that aren=A1=AFt =
upgraded to understand the extensions will drop the traffic so there isn=A1=
=AFt


any significant improvement in =
the approach.



 


In fact, the approach described=
 in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding may



cause other issues such as band=
width double booking since it proposes that  any neighbor that


claims proxy forwarding will be=
 used to forward the protected traffic.


 


For ex:


 


<=
/o:p>


 


In above diagram 


SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->R=
T7->RT5 


Only RT4 supports proxy-forward=
ing


On failure of RT3, RT1 would se=
nd traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4


RT4 will then send to RT7 as pe=
r the SR-TE path


RT7 will then send to RT5 via R=
T7->RT4->RT5


 


In this example, same traffic i=
s traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.


 


Operationally this solution is =
very complex to manage. A network that starts with no segment protection,


It may be ok to drop the traffi=
c if some nodes have not been upgraded but causing congestion



somewhere else would be difficu=
lt to debug.


------=A1=B7[HZB]
Traffi=
c detour may exist in all local FRR mechanisms and is not unique to this so=
lution, including TI-LFA.SR-TE Path protection etc=A3=AC

           =
;   The solution described in [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protecti=
on-sr-te-paths] also has this problem.for example you have mentioned,<=
/o:p>


If using the solution of [ draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-s=
r-te-paths],
On fai=
lure of RT3, If the last calculated reachable path to RT3 is RT1->RT6-&g=
t;RT7->RT4->RT3, RT1 maintains the path of RT1->RT6->RT7->RT=
4->RT3 for forwarding during the Holdtimer period. Then,
 RT4 performs Proxy Forwarding and RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT7->=
RT4->RT5. It also traverses the link 3 times from RT7 to RT4.=



I think extending the protocol is a much simpler way than slow ro=
ute deletion and loop solving.


 



2.  &nbs=
p;   
BSID solution


dr=
aft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discuss =
the solution for BSIDs.


Mo=
st of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is as=
signed on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. Sec=
tion 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
 discusses this approach.


     &=
nbsp;       draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-p=
roxy-forwarding  provides a protection solution for BSIDs when anycast=
 is not in use.


     &=
nbsp;      


 If WG is inclined to solv=
e the BSID protection problem when anycast solution is not in use, I would =
prefer the


     &=
nbsp;        Approach to be more aligned=
 with draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. I do not support In=
troducing completely   different solution based on proxy forwardi=
ng which has other implications described
 in point 1.


------=A1=B7[HZB]I don`t
 think that most of the=
 BSID deployments use anycast based solution=A3=ACStrict path control is required in most scenarios,
 and anycast is not introduced. 



         =
;        If Bsid is not addressed, =
it will not be a complete protection solution.


 


Rgds


Shraddha


 


 



Juniper Business=
 Use Only






From: spring
spring-bounces@ietf.org O=
n Behalf Of
bruno.decraene@orange.com<=
/a>

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


<=
span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Lato;color:black">[E=
xternal Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-ro=
uting-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


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From: 
To: "'Huzhibo'" , , "'SPRING WG'" 
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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi,

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the
previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than
the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If
all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result in
better convergence performance.

 

[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the head
end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechanism,
it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR
working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you are
mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: networks
are never converging in 50ms). 

 

 

 

 

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

 

--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point,
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to
different PF nodes.

 

[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FRR
shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that can
fit traffic. (See RFC7916).

So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any
control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates
congestion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow on,
you'll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not initially
flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to customers).
Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic. 

 

 

Stephane

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Huzhibo  
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG'

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

 

From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
[mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo  >;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

From: Huzhibo  > 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi slitkows :

 

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

 

Thanks

 

Zhibo Hu

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING
WG'  >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi 

 

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

 

1.	The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this
problem, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions
for the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create
deployment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.

-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local
behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection.
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node
protection. 

 

It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution
solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding
segments.

 

[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion
below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion.
As there is already a WG doc, I don't see any reason for creating another
one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.

 

2.	Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without
adding a strong value.

 

The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] .
may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not
supporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat
and requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.

 

Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the
extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't support
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 

 

Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]

 

Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G
may have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution
allows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the
solution will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all
routers upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path
to F'. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work
tactically depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion
of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to
upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is
there. 

 

In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the
failed node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic
congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this
traffic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes
to this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some
part of the same path before reaching the destination.

 

So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.

---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that
can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol
extension is necessary.

This solution does not require that all network nodes support this
extension, take the example you have mentioned :

but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extension
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is
node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the
PF

node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C
and D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.

 

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the
previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than
the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If
all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result in
better convergence performance.

 

In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols,
but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required for node faults.
In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy
forwarding.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point,
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to
different PF nodes.

 

3.	Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may
be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of
burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING (see next comment).

 

Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the
control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is
orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding
operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not
expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.

-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do
not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing and
forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.

 

[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and
forwarding aspects could be further described in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is
interesting to solve.

   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of
it into the LSR.

 

 

SR-TE protection    

takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal
forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is
acceptable.

 

4.	The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as
it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.

                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail
requests for IGP protocols

[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding: 

"For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called

   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a

   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello

   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)

   [RFC7356].

 

This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to
be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.

--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it
into the LSR.

 

 

 

 

 

Brgds,

 

Stephane

 

 

From: spring  > On
Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com  
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG  >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa
rding/

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.


 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________
 
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------=_NextPart_000_00BB_01D813AD.6A1E9A10
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi,
 
[SLI] Your statement is purely =
theoretical and life in real networks is not theoretical. You cannot =
predict which router will converge first (routers may have different =
CPUs, may have different tasks to execute…). B may converge first =
maybe, but maybe it will be C or D… no one knows and it’s =
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to =
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.
 =
;            =
     --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much =
faster than SR-TE rerouting, There=
fore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous =
example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the =
convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not =
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. =
If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result =
in better convergence performance.
=
 
[SLI2=
]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the head =
end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your =
mechanism, it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. =
To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension =
(seems you are mixing convergence and protection which are two different =
things: networks are never converging in 50ms). 
=
 
=
 
=
 
=
 
[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and =
at the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the =
failure. It’s the solution, but it has major drawbacks from an =
operational point of view.
 
-----=
---->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only =
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, =
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance =
traffic to different PF nodes.
=
 
[SLI2=
] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has =
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of =
FRR shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path =
that can fit traffic. (See RFC7916).
So, =
letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any =
control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates =
congestion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow =
on, you’ll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not =
initially flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain =
to customers). Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic. =

=
 
=
 
Steph=
ane
=
 
 =

 
=
 
=
 
 
 
From: Huzhibo =
<huzhibo@huawei.com> 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 =
12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG =
adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
Please find more =
inline.
=
 
=
 
From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: =
Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
Please find more =
inline.
 
From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> =

Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi =
slitkows =
:
=
 
Thank=
s for your comments, Please see inline.
=
 
Thank=
s
=
 
Zhibo=
 Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi 
 
I’m =
NOT supporting this draft for the following =
reasons:
 
  1. The WG already =
have a WG document which is dealing with this problem, I don’t =
think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for the same =
solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create deployment =
issues as different vendors may pick different =
solutions.
-----> =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behaviors =
to implement SR-TE node protection. =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node =
protection. 
 =

It optimiz=
ed the number of entries in the Context Table. This =
solution solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and =
protects binding segments.
 
[SLI] While =
I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion below), =
this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion. As =
there is already a WG doc, I don’t see any reason for creating =
another one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing =
readers.
 
  1. Adding protocols extensions adds =
complexity in the solution without adding a strong =
value.
 
The document claims that =
“[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] … may not =
work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not supporting =
this solution.”. While this is true, the proposed solution in =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same =
caveat and requires all nodes in the network to support the =
solution.
 
Considering the following straight =
line network: A -B -C -D – E – F - G -H and an SR policy =
from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the extension to =
make the solution working, if one of the router doesn’t support =
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 
 
Then, there is no value compared to =
the timer-based solution of =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
 
Authors of =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G may have =
multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and the =
solution allows for F’ to support the extension while F may not =
support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’. Well yes, =
but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to support this =
extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’t =
think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically depending =
on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the network, =
but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrade all =
their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there. =

 
In addition, in term of traffic, =
forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the failed node which wasn’t =
initially on the path, could lead to traffic congestion or high traffic =
peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traffic. We could =
easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this =
non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some =
part of the same path before reaching the =
destination.
 
So these protocol extensions are =
bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> =
Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that can =
perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be =
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This =
protocol extension is necessary.
This =
solution does not require that all network nodes support this extension, =
take the example you have mentioned :
but it =
still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extension =
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous =
segment is node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the =
node B finds the PF
node =
F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and =
D do not support this protocol extension, this is not =
affected.
 
 
[SLI] Your statement is purely =
theoretical and life in real networks is not theoretical. You cannot =
predict which router will converge first (routers may have different =
CPUs, may have different tasks to execute…). B may converge first =
maybe, but maybe it will be C or D… no one knows and it’s =
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to =
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.
 =
;            =
       --------->[HZB]IGP convergence =
is much faster than SR-TE rerouting, There=
fore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous =
example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the =
convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not =
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. =
If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result =
in better convergence performance.
 
In =
addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend =
protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required =
for node faults. In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent =
loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can =
perform proxy forwarding.
[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and =
at the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the =
failure. It’s the solution, but it has major drawbacks from an =
operational point of view.
 =
;  --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this =
document only filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same =
fault point, different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load =
balance traffic to different PF nodes.
 
  1. Regarding BSID, I’m not fan =
of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds or thousands of =
BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden in IGP. The =
proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING (see next =
comment).
 
Note =
that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in =
the control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID =
handling is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. =
The forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in =
details, we could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups =
without any perf degradation.
-------> =
Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do not =
need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments =
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing =
and forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly =
coupled.
 
[SLI] =
Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in =
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and =
forwarding aspects could be further described in  =
;[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that =
BSID is interesting to solve.
 =
;  --------->[HZB]Sure. We =
will consider whether we need to divest some of it into the =
LSR.
 
 
SR-TE =
protection    
takes =
effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path =
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during =
normal forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance =
degradation is acceptable.
=
 
  1. The document is currently a bit =
borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good details about IGP =
protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it should detail reqs =
for protocols but nothing beyond.
 =
;          &=
nbsp;    ------->As you =
said, this document defines the detail requests for IGP =
protocols=

[SLI] No it goes beyond =
requirements and already talks about encoding: =

“For supporting binding SID =
proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called
   Binding =
Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and =
a
   list of =
segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS =
Hello
   (IIH) PDUs, =
LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs =
(CS-LSP)
   =
[RFC7356].
 
This is not =
a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to be =
discussed in LSR not in SPRING.
-----=
---->[HZB]Sure. =
We =
will consider whether we need to divest some of it into the =
LSR.
 
 
=
 
 
 
Brgds,
 
Stephane
 
 
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> =
On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.comSent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG =
<spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Dear WG,
 
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending =
27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/
 
After review of the document please indicate support (or =
not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing =
list.
 
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or =
lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support =
as this is not a vote.      =

 
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please =
state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy =
level of people in the working group willing to work on the =
document.
 
Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel
________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________________________=
________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes =
peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne =
doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies =
sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si =
ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may =
contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by =
law;
they should not be distributed, used or =
copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in =
error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its =
attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not =
liable for messages that have been modified, changed or =
falsified.
Thank =
you.

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From: Haoyu Song 
To: Gyan Mishra , Tianran Zhou 
CC: Greg Mirsky , IETF IPPM WG , "spring@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm]  Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Gyan,

Thank you for your comments! Please see inline for response marked with [HS=
]

Best,
Haoyu

From: Gyan Mishra 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:03 PM
To: Tianran Zhou 
Cc: Greg Mirsky ; Haoyu Song ; IETF IPPM WG ; spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu

I think it would be good to identify the problem statement and gap with exi=
sting IPPM WG STAMP, TWAMP PM technologies and why they cannot be utilized =
or fall short in what you are trying to achieve with Active OAM in SRv6.

[HS] My understanding is that STAMP/TWAMP are for end-to-end measurements, =
here we want to collect data from every node and every link on any path, wi=
thout needing to set up any sessions. So the scope and coverage are differe=
nt.

In-situ IOAM data packets is already possible with SRv6 as mentioned as thi=
s draft mentions below as normative reference.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16

[HS] There's no accepted solution on how to support IOAM in SRv6 yet. Our p=
roposal aims to provide such a solution, and (1) the solution avoids the is=
sues on encapsulating the IOAM trace in EHs and (2) it's extensible to incl=
ude OAM methods beyond IOAM.

This draft as well mentioned as normative reference draft below provides OA=
M ping and traceroute with SRH O flag to SRv6 PGM endpoints and SID list tr=
acing capabilities very handy for troubleshooting.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-13

[HS] This is for in-band OAM for SRv6 user traffic and it only works for tr=
iggering postcard exports (i.e., don't allow the packet to carry data). Our=
 proposal support all the IOAM options and more important, it's an active m=
ethod which means one can generate and inject probing packets to cover arbi=
trary paths by crafting an SRH.

This draft as well also mentioned as normative reference draft below provid=
es in-situ IOAM for OAM and PM information can be piggybacked in data packe=
ts in SRH TLV SRv6 PGM SIF function SRv6.TLV recording the operational and =
telemetry info in the data packets.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ali-spring-ioam-srv6-05

[HS] This draft proposes to encapsulate IOAM in SRH TLV. Due to the overhea=
d concern (IOAM trace could be large) and other issues related to EH, I don=
't support such a solution.

[HS] The three drafts you mentioned are all be reference in our draft and d=
iscussed. We think our use cases are different and our approach is more gen=
eral and extensible to our use cases.

Thanks

Gyan

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:19 PM Tianran Zhou > wrote:
Hi Haoyu,

The application is really interesting and useful.
I am not sure if it is necessary to create a new OAM protocol at transport =
layer.
IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension based on STAMP could be more practica=
l.
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt=


Best,
Tianran

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like addi=
ng the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
--

[http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo-email]

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect

Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

M 301 502-1347


--_000_PH0PR13MB479582418405803B955A66359A219PH0PR13MB4795namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Gyan,


 


Thank you for your comments! Please see inline for r=
esponse marked with [HS]


 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com&g=
t; 

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:03 PM

To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Haoyu Song <haoyu.=
song@futurewei.com>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>; spring@ietf.org=


Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 






Hi Haoyu 






 






I think it would be good to identify the problem sta=
tement and gap with existing IPPM WG STAMP, TWAMP PM technologies and why t=
hey cannot be utilized or fall short in what you are trying to achieve=
 with Active OAM in SRv6. 






 


[HS] My understanding is that STAMP/TWAMP are for en=
d-to-end measurements, here we want to collect data from every node and eve=
ry link on any path, without needing to set up any sessions. So the scope a=
nd coverage are different.  


 






In-situ IOAM data packets is already possible with S=
Rv6 as mentioned as this draft mentions below as normative reference.<=
/o:p>






 








https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16


 


[HS] There’s no accepted solution on how to su=
pport IOAM in SRv6 yet. Our proposal aims to provide such a solution, and (=
1) the solution avoids the issues on encapsulating the IOAM trace in EHs an=
d (2) it’s extensible to include OAM methods
 beyond IOAM.




 






This draft as well mentioned as normative reference =
draft below provides OAM ping and traceroute with SRH O flag to SRv6 PGM en=
dpoints and SID list tracing capabilities very handy for troubleshooting.






 









 


[HS] This is for in-band OAM for SRv6 user traffic a=
nd it only works for triggering postcard exports (i.e., don’t allow t=
he packet to carry data). Our proposal support all the IOAM options and mor=
e important, it’s an active method which
 means one can generate and inject probing packets to cover arbitrary paths=
 by crafting an SRH.



 






This draft as well also mentioned as normative refer=
ence draft below provides in-situ IOAM for OAM and PM information can be pi=
ggybacked in data packets in SRH TLV SRv6 PGM SIF function SRv6.TLV recordi=
ng the operational and telemetry info
 in the data packets.









[HS] This draft proposes to encapsulate IOAM in SRH =
TLV. Due to the overhead concern (IOAM trace could be large) and other issu=
es related to EH, I don’t support such a solution.



 


[HS] The three drafts you mentioned are all be refer=
ence in our draft and discussed. We think our use cases are different and o=
ur approach is more general and extensible to our use cases.






 






Thanks 










 






Gyan 






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:19 PM Tianran Zhou <zh=
outianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:










Hi Haoyu,


 


The application is really interestin=
g and useful.


I am not sure if it is necessary to =
create a new OAM protocol at transport layer.


IMHO, a per hop/per segment extensio=
n based on STAMP could be more practical.


https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions=
-03.txt


 


Best,


Tianran  










 


From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6


 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. =
As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active mea=
surement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to u=
se an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;










options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:<=
o:p>








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1=
.








Does your proposal change that?










 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=















_______________________________________________

ippm mailing list

ippm@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm









-- 




















<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">


Gyan Mishra=



Network Solutions Architect&nb=
sp;


Email
gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com



M 301 =
502-1347






 
























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From: Haoyu Song 
To: Tianran Zhou , Greg Mirsky 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm]  Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Tianran,

We didn't invent any new protocol but to simply use UDP for the probing pac=
kets in SRv6.
What we want to avoid is SRH TLV in EH which can significantly increase the=
 EH overhead because the data needed to be carried may be too large.
Also, since IOAM options have been well defined, it's unnecessary to augmen=
t the other existing protocols to provide similar functionality. We just ne=
ed a way to encapsulate them.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Tianran Zhou 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 7:19 PM
To: Greg Mirsky ; Haoyu Song 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,

The application is really interesting and useful.
I am not sure if it is necessary to create a new OAM protocol at transport =
layer.
IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension based on STAMP could be more practica=
l.
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt=


Best,
Tianran

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding=
 the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--_000_PH0PR13MB4795FC71FE9560BCB10F3CAD9A219PH0PR13MB4795namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Tianran,


 


We didn’t invent any new protocol but to simp=
ly use UDP for the probing packets in SRv6.



What we want to avoid is SRH TLV in EH which can si=
gnificantly increase the EH overhead because the data needed to be carried =
may be too large.



Also, since IOAM options have been well defined, it=
’s unnecessary to augment the other existing protocols to provide sim=
ilar functionality. We just need a way to encapsulate
 them.


 


Best,


Haoyu


 






From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@h=
uawei.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 7:19 PM

To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Haoyu Song <haoyu.=
song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6





 


Hi Haoyu,


 


The application is really interesting=
 and useful.


I am not sure if it is necessary to c=
reate a new OAM protocol at transport layer.


IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension=
 based on STAMP could be more practical.


https://=
www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt


 


Best,


Tianran  


 


From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu=
.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wro=
te:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and=
 its extensions, including the

SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;










options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change that?










 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring













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From: Haoyu Song 
To: Greg Mirsky 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Greg,

Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding t=
he IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.

HS>> Let's give a few features of our proposal: (1) it's session-less and w=
e don't need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs for a return=
 path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely determined by =
the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and poten=
tially other OAM methods.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because i=
t's not included in a user packet.

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
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Hi Greg, 


 


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline resp=
onse. 



 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g=
t; 

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wro=
te:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and=
 its extensions, including the

SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;


 


HS>> Let’s give a few features of our pr=
oposal: (1) it’s session-less and we don’t need assign any role=
s (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measurement =
can start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3)
 udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other =
OAM methods.











options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change that?


 


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for=
 active measurement because it’s not included in a user packet.











 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring














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From: Huaimo Chen 
To: Shraddha Hegde , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG 
Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi Shraddha,

    Thank you for your comments.

    I remember that I talked to you face to face in IETF meeting and
suggested merging your draft and our draft a long time ago before
your draft is adopted. You said it would be ok to have the two drafts
in WG. In addition, I sent you an email to ask for merging the two drafts,
but did not receive any reply from you.

    I also remember that Zhibo supported the adoption of your draft.

    These two drafts have some overlaps and differences. Our draft
refers to yours for the overlaps, but focuses on the different
method for protection and the area your draft does not cover.

    For example, your draft talks about using anycast SID to protect
node failure. I remember that this was discussed in IETF meeting and
some issues were raised by others. We do not use anycast SID for
protection.

    Regarding to "May cause congestion somewhere else in the network",
this seems true for the two drafts when a node failed.

Best Regards,
Huaimo

________________________________
From: spring  on behalf of Shraddha Hegde 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:15 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com ; SPRING WG 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding


WG,



I  don=92t support the adoption of this document as a WG document.



I am in agreement with stephane=92s comments on the list.



  1.  May cause congestion somewhere else in the network

There is already WG adopted document that is addressing the problem space

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.

This draft does not provide significant advantages over the proposed soluti=
ons in

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.

draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better s=
olution when all nodes

have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding in=
troduces protocol extensions

and the nodes that aren=92t upgraded to understand the extensions will drop=
 the traffic so there isn=92t

any significant improvement in the approach.



In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding may

cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking since it proposes that =
 any neighbor that

claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the protected traffic.



For ex:



[cid:image001.png@01D81379.DDE14C10]



In above diagram

SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5

Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding

On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4

RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path

RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5



In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.



Operationally this solution is very complex to manage. A network that start=
s with no segment protection,

It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have not been upgraded but c=
ausing congestion

somewhere else would be difficult to debug.



  1.  BSID solution

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discus=
s the solution for BSIDs.

Most of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is =
assigned on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. S=
ection 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths discusses th=
is approach.

             draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  provides a p=
rotection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.



 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection problem when anycast soluti=
on is not in use, I would prefer the

              Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spring-segment-pr=
otection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely   different s=
olution based on proxy forwarding which has other implications described in=
 point 1.





Rgds

Shraddha





Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring spring-bounces@ietf.org On Beh=
alf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM
To: SPRING WG 
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



Dear WG,



This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/



After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.



If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.



Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi Shraddha,






    Thank you for your comments.







    I remember that I talked to you face to face in IETF mee=
ting and 


suggested merging your draft and our draft a long time ago before

your draft is adopted. You said it would be ok to have the two drafts =



in WG. In addition, I sent you an email to ask for merging the two dra=
fts,


but did not receive any reply from you.







    I also remember that Zhibo supported the adoption of you=
r draft.







    These two drafts have some overlaps and differences. Our=
 draft


refers to yours for the overlaps, but focuses on the different 


method for protection and the area your draft does not cover. 







    For example, your draft talks about using anycast SID to=
 protect 


node failure. I remember that this was discussed in IETF meeting and

some issues were raised by others. We do not use anycast SID for


protection.







    Regarding to "May cause congestion somewhere else i=
n the network",


this seems true for the two drafts when a node failed.







Best Regards,

Huaimo
















From: spring <spring-bou=
nces@ietf.org> on behalf of Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net@=
dmarc.ietf.org>

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:15 AM

To: bruno.decraene@orange.com <bruno.decraene@orange.com>; SPR=
ING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding

 









WG,



 



I  don=92t support the adoption of this document as a WG document.



 



I am in agreement with stephane=92s comments on the list.



 


    

  1. 
May cause congestion somewhere else in the network



There is already WG adopted document that is addressing the problem space


draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 



This draft does not provide significant advantages over the proposed soluti=
ons in




draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 



draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better s=
olution when all nodes



have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding in=
troduces protocol extensions



and the nodes that aren=92t upgraded to understand the extensions will drop=
 the traffic so there isn=92t



any significant improvement in the approach. 



 



In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding may




cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking since it proposes that =
 any neighbor that



claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the protected traffic.



 



For ex:



 







 



In above diagram 



SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5 



Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding



On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT=
4



RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path



RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5



 



In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.


 



Operationally this solution is very complex to manage. A network that start=
s with no segment protection,



It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have not been upgraded but c=
ausing congestion




somewhere else would be difficult to debug.



 


    

  1. 
BSID solution



draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discus=
s the solution for BSIDs.



Most of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is =
assigned on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. S=
ection 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths discusses th=
is approach.



             dr=
aft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  provides a protection =
solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.



            



 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection problem when anycast s=
olution is not in use, I would prefer the



            &nb=
sp; Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-s=
r-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely   different s=
olution based on proxy forwarding which has other implications described in=
 point 1.



 



 



Rgds



Shraddha



 



 



Juniper Business Use Only







From: spring spring-bounc=
es@ietf.org
On Behalf Of bruno.decr=
aene@orange.com

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding







 



[External Email. Be cautious of content]<=
/b>



 





=
Dear WG,



=
 



=
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding



=
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spr=
ing-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/



=
 



=
After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



=
 



=
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.




=
 



=
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
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References:   
In-Reply-To: 
From: Greg Mirsky 
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:00:49 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002fbb8a05d697748a"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Haoyu,
thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined
below under the GIM2>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song 
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Haoyu
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
> *To:* Haoyu Song 
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
> thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the
> concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft
>  it
> seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the
> right thing to do.
>
> Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song 
> wrote:
>
> Hi SPRING WG,
>
>
>
> Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary
> to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard
> to catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficien=
t
> planning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6
> In-situ Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement
> approach which can support different
>
> GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement
> protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an
> acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions,
> including the SRPM draft
> ,
> comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
>
>
>
> HS>> Let=E2=80=99s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=E2=80=99s =
session-less and
> we don=E2=80=99t need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs f=
or a
> return path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely
> determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM
> modes and potentially other OAM methods.
>
GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe from
an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as
simple as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of
the SR policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If
the operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I
imagine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol,
e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?

> options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry
> about the extension header issue.
>
> GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
>
>    In terms of the classification given
>
>    in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
>
> Does your proposal change that?
>
>
>
> HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because
> it=E2=80=99s not included in a user packet.
>
>
>
> Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I=E2=80=99d l=
ike to
> know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopte=
d
> by the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work=
,
> please also let me know.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/
> 
>
>
>
> Thank you very much!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Haoyu
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>
>

--0000000000002fbb8a05d697748a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Haoyu,
thank you =
for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined below unde=
r the GIM2>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote:











Hi Greg, 


=C2=A0


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline resp=
onse. 



=C2=A0


Best,


Haoyu


=C2=A0




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> 

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




=C2=A0








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft=C2=A0it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do.=C2=A0






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






=C2=A0






Regards,






Greg






=C2=A0






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurew=
ei.com> wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


=C2=A0


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a =
network is necessary to detect =C2=A0gray failures, which are the key culpr=
it for poor QoS but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost. =C2=A0=C2=A0Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple =C2=A0active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and=
 its extensions, including the

SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.=
=C2=A0


=C2=A0


HS>> Let=E2=80=99s give a few features of our =
proposal: (1) it=E2=80=99s session-less and we don=E2=80=99t need assign an=
y roles (e.g., =C2=A0reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measur=
ement can start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3)
 udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other =
OAM methods.




--0000000000002fbb8a05d697748a--


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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi Stephane,

    Thank you for your comments.

[SLI2].... To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the ex=
tension. ...
[HC]: When some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for som=
e failures.

Best Regards,
Huaimo
________________________________
From: spring  on behalf of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com=
 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:40 PM
To: 'Huzhibo' ; bruno.decraene@orange.com ; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding


Hi,



[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute=85). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D=85 no one knows and it=92s u=
npredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work=
, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE =
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in th=
e previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter t=
han the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do=
 not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenario=
s. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result i=
n better convergence performance.



[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the hea=
d end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechani=
sm, it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR=
 working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you ar=
e mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: network=
s are never converging in 50ms).









[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It=92s the solution, but it has major drawba=
cks from an operational point of view.



--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only f=
ilters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, diff=
erent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to di=
fferent PF nodes.



[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has =
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FR=
R shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that ca=
n fit traffic. (See RFC7916).

So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any co=
ntrol is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates conges=
tion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow on, you=
=92ll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not initially flowin=
g through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to customers). Keep=
ing control of FRR path is a very important topic.





Stephane













From: Huzhibo 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi,



Please find more inline.





From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitk=
ows.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo >; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi,



Please find more inline.



From: Huzhibo >
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi slitkows :



Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.



Thanks



Zhibo Hu

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gm=
ail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG=
' >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi



I=92m NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:



  1.  The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this problem,=
 I don=92t think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for =
the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create depl=
oyment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.

-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behav=
iors to implement SR-TE node protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node protection.



It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution solv=
es the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding seg=
ments.



[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion=
 below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion=
. As there is already a WG doc, I don=92t see any reason for creating anoth=
er one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.



  1.  Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without a=
dding a strong value.



The document claims that =93[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths=
] =85 may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not =
supporting this solution.=94. While this is true, the proposed solution in =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same cavea=
t and requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.



Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D =96 E =96 F - G=
 -H and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to suppor=
t the extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn=92=
t support the extension, traffic will be dropped.



Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.ietf-s=
pring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]



Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G m=
ay have multiple upstream neighbors let=92s say F and F=92 and the solution=
 allows for F=92 to support the extension while F may not support, so the s=
olution will send the traffic to F=92. Well yes, but this still requires al=
l routers upstream to F=92 to support this extension and maybe F is on the =
path to F=92. So, I don=92t think the argument is valid as it may possibly =
work tactically depending on the network topology when we look at a small p=
ortion of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will=
 have to upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the ben=
efit is there.



In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the fa=
iled node which wasn=92t initially on the path, could lead to traffic conge=
stion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traf=
fic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to =
this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some p=
art of the same path before reaching the destination.



So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.

---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node tha=
t can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be=
 forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol =
extension is necessary.

This solution does not require that all network nodes support this extensio=
n, take the example you have mentioned :

but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extensio=
n ---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment i=
s node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds th=
e PF

node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C a=
nd D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.





[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute=85). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D=85 no one knows and it=92s u=
npredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work=
, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-T=
E rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in =
the previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter=
 than the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network =
do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenar=
ios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result=
 in better convergence performance.



In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In=
 addition, slow deletion is required for node faults. In addition, loop pre=
vention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately dire=
ct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It=92s the solution, but it has major drawba=
cks from an operational point of view.

   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document onl=
y filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, d=
ifferent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to=
 different PF nodes.



  1.  Regarding BSID, I=92m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there ma=
y be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot =
of burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in=
 SPRING (see next comment).



Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the c=
ontrol-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is o=
rthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding ope=
rations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not ex=
pect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.

-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and d=
o not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segme=
nts do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing a=
nd forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.



[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPR=
ING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and forward=
ing aspects could be further described in  [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protect=
ion-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is interesting to solve.

   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of =
it into the LSR.





SR-TE protection

takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path conver=
ges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal forward=
ing,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is accepta=
ble.



  1.  The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as =
it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it=92s a SPRING =
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.

                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail reque=
sts for IGP protocols

[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding:

=93For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called

   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a

   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello

   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)

   [RFC7356].



This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has t=
o be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.

--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it =
into the LSR.











Brgds,



Stephane





From: spring > On B=
ehalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding



Dear WG,



This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/



After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.



If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.



Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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--_000_BY3PR13MB5044CCFD071515060750FEC3F2219BY3PR13MB5044namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi Stephane,









    Thank you for your comments.









[S=
LI2].... To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the exte=
nsion. ...





[H=
C]: When some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for some =
failures.













Best Regards,

Huaimo






From: spring <spring-bou=
nces@ietf.org> on behalf of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <slitkows.ietf@gm=
ail.com>

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:40 PM

To: 'Huzhibo' <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com =
<bruno.decraene@orange.com>; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding

 









Hi,



 



[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in rea=
l networks is not theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converg=
e first (routers may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execu=
te=85). B may converge first maybe,
 but maybe it will be C or D=85 no one knows and it=92s unpredictable. So a=
t the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have=
 to support the mechanism.



    &nb=
sp;            =
 --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE rerouting,
Therefore, even if n=
ode B is slower than node C and node D in the previous example, the converg=
ence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergence time of the=
 SR-TE path. If some nodes in the
 network do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in so=
me scenarios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That wou=
ld result in better convergence performance.



 



[SLI2]of course SR-TE will =
converge slower, I never discussed about the head end. My point:  If C=
 is faster than B and C does not support your mechanism, it will drop traff=
ic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore.
 To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (s=
eems you are mixing convergence and protection which are two different thin=
gs: networks are never converging in 50ms).




 



 



 



 



[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy f=
orwarding can have serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to t=
raffic that has nothing to do with the failure. It=92s the solution, but it=
 has major drawbacks from an operational
 point of view.



 



--------->[HZB] Similar =
to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out the nodes tha=
t do not support PF. For the same fault point, different remote nodes selec=
t different PF nodes and load balance
 traffic to different PF nodes.



 



[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA i=
s to try to keep the traffic on a path that has been sized properly (this i=
s one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FRR shown that this is import=
ant to constraint/steer FRR path on
 path that can fit traffic. (See RFC7916).



So, letting traffic going t=
o any neighbor of the failed node without any control is wrong and may crea=
te more damages. When FRR traffic creates congestion on some links the prot=
ected traffic was not intended to
 flow on, you=92ll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not ini=
tially flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to cus=
tomers). Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic.




 



 



Stephane



 







 



 



 



 



 







From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> 

Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' =
<spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 



Hi,



 



Please find more inline.



 


 







From: 
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mai=
lto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei=
.com>; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 



Hi,



 



Please find more inline.



 







From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>


Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 



Hi =
slitkows :



 



Thanks for your comments, P=
lease see inline.



 



Thanks



 



Zhibo Hu







From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of slitkows.iet=
f@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.=
org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 



Hi 



 



I=92m NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:=




 


    

  1. 
The WG already have a WG document which is=
 dealing with this problem, I don=92t think that WG should come with multip=
le documents/solutions for the same solution space as it may just confuse t=
he industry and create deployment issues
 as different vendors may pick different solutions.=




-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines lo=
cal behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-r=
outing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE
 node protection. 



 



It 
optimized the number of entri=
es in the Context Table.
This solution solves t=
he connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding segment=
s.



 



[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely vali=
d (see discussion below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two =
drafts discussion. As there is already a WG doc, I don=92t see any reason f=
or creating another one except creating
 artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.



 


    

  1. 
Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solutio=
n without adding a strong value.



 



The document claims that =93[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-prote=
ction-sr-te-paths] =85 may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in=
 the network not supporting this solution.=94. While this is true, the prop=
osed solution in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 has exactly the same caveat and requires all nodes in the network to suppo=
rt the solution.



 



Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -=
D =96 E =96 F - G -H and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to=
 F have to support the extension to make the solution working, if one of th=
e router doesn=92t support the extension,
 traffic will be dropped. 



 



Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based soluti=
on of [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]



 



Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwardin=
g argued that G may have multiple upstream neighbors let=92s say F and F=92=
 and the solution allows for F=92 to support the extension while F may not =
support, so the solution will send the traffic
 to F=92. Well yes, but this still requires all routers upstream to F=92 to=
 support this extension and maybe F is on the path to F=92. So, I don=92t t=
hink the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically depending on =
the network topology when we look at a small
 portion of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator wi=
ll have to upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the b=
enefit is there.




 



In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a n=
eighbor of the failed node which wasn=92t initially on the path, could lead=
 to traffic congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized t=
o carry this traffic. We could easily
 expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this non-natural nei=
ghbor of the failed node and then goes back over some part of the same path=
 before reaching the destination.



 



So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for n=
o value here.



---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a=
 node that can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic =
cannot be forwarded to a proxy forwarding
 node after IGP convergence. This protocol extension is necessary.


This solution does not requir=
e that all network nodes support this extension, take the example you have =
mentioned :



but it still requires that al=
l routers upstream to F' support this extension ---> This description is=
 inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is node B, when node G fail=
s. When the node B converges, the node
 B finds the PF



node F' adjacent to G, and ca=
n push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and D do not support this prot=
ocol extension, this is not affected.



 



 



[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in rea=
l networks is not theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converg=
e first (routers may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execu=
te=85). B may converge first maybe,
 but maybe it will be C or D=85 no one knows and it=92s unpredictable. So a=
t the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have=
 to support the mechanism.



    &nb=
sp;            =
   --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE re=
routing,
Therefore, even if n=
ode B is slower than node C and node D in the previous example, the converg=
ence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergence time of the=
 SR-TE path. If some nodes in the
 network do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in so=
me scenarios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That wou=
ld result in better convergence performance.



 



In addition, the Hold timers =
solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does=
 not extend protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is r=
equired for node faults. In addition,
 loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accura=
tely direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding.



[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy f=
orwarding can have serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to t=
raffic that has nothing to do with the failure. It=92s the solution, but it=
 has major drawbacks from an operational
 point of view.



   --------->[=
HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out =
the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, different remot=
e nodes select different PF nodes and load balance
 traffic to different PF nodes.



 


    

  1. 
Regarding BSID, I=92m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP =
as there may be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will cr=
eate a lot of burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in =
LSR, not in SPRING (see next comment).



 



Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]=
 could also work with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is a=
vailable in the control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this B=
SID handling is orthogonal to the
 proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding operations for BSID=
 will have to be discussed more in details, we could not expect all HW to b=
e able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.



-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighb=
ors and do not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, bind=
ing segments do not exert pressure on IGP
 performance.The control-plane processing and forwarding-plane processing o=
f the BSID are not strongly coupled.



 



[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed i=
n LSR, not in SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control =
plane and forwarding aspects could be further described in
 [I-D.ietf-spri=
ng-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
if WGs agrees that BSID is interest=
ing to solve.



   --------->[=
HZB]Sure.
We will consider whe=
ther we need to divest some of it into the LSR.



 



 



SR-TE protection =
   



takes effect only from the ti=
me during a fault occurs to the TE path converges. Therefore, SR-TE protect=
ion does not take effect during normal forwarding,Compared with impaired co=
nnectivity, performance degradation
 is acceptable.



 


    

  1. 
The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING =
and LSR as it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it=92=
s a SPRING doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.



    &nb=
sp;           ------->As y=
ou said, this document defines the detail requests
 for IGP protocols



[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks abo=
ut encoding:





=93For supporting binding SID=
 proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called



   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a b=
inding SID and a



   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be adverti=
sed in IS-IS Hello



   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs=
 (CS-LSP)



   [RFC7356].





 



This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution descr=
iption that has to be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.



--------->[HZB]Sure.
We will consider whe=
ther we need to divest some of it into the LSR.



 



 



 



 



 



Brgds,



 



Stephane



 



 







From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of bruno.decr=
aene@orange.com

Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding







 



=
Dear WG,



=
 



=
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr=
aft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


=
 



=
After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



=
 



=
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.     




=
 



=
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the
 document.



 



Thanks!



Bruno, Jim, Joel


___________________________________________________=
______________________________________________________________________


 


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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a=
 ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confid=
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they should not be distributed, used or copied with=
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If you have received this email in error, please no=
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From: Tianran Zhou 
To: Haoyu Song , Greg Mirsky 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
Thread-Index: AdgTBAVv6vallEwgQVCAy2m6n5m7fP//gxqA//8zIPCAAhkLgP//HqpQ
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 00:22:21 +0000
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Hi Haoyu,

I do not understand why the UDP encapsulation is better than SRH TLV.
IMO, IOAM is already too complex, some more work on TLV parsing is not crit=
ical.
If you care about the data length "because the data needed to be carried ma=
y be too large", what's the limit on SRH TLV?
What's your use case, and your requirement? Let's evaluate it with numbers.

Best,
Tianran

From: Haoyu Song [mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 2:50 AM
To: Tianran Zhou ; Greg Mirsky 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Tianran,

We didn't invent any new protocol but to simply use UDP for the probing pac=
kets in SRv6.
What we want to avoid is SRH TLV in EH which can significantly increase the=
 EH overhead because the data needed to be carried may be too large.
Also, since IOAM options have been well defined, it's unnecessary to augmen=
t the other existing protocols to provide similar functionality. We just ne=
ed a way to encapsulate them.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Tianran Zhou >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 7:19 PM
To: Greg Mirsky >; Haoy=
u Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,

The application is really interesting and useful.
I am not sure if it is necessary to create a new OAM protocol at transport =
layer.
IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension based on STAMP could be more practica=
l.
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt=


Best,
Tianran

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding=
 the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--_000_0d5bbca4caeb4c3e83d7117919aebadchuaweicom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Haoyu,


 


I do not understand why the UDP encap=
sulation is better than SRH TLV.


IMO, IOAM is already too complex, som=
e more work on TLV parsing is not critical.


If you care about the data length =
220;because the data needed to be carried may be too large”, whatR=
17;s the limit on SRH TLV?


What’s your use case, and your =
requirement? Let’s evaluate it with numbers.



 


Best,


Tianran



 






From: Haoyu Song [mailto:haoyu.song@=
futurewei.com]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 2:50 AM

To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>; Greg Mirsky <gre=
gimirsky@gmail.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6





 


Hi Tianran,


 


We didn’t invent any new protocol but to simp=
ly use UDP for the probing packets in SRv6.



What we want to avoid is SRH TLV in EH which can si=
gnificantly increase the EH overhead because the data needed to be carried =
may be too large.



Also, since IOAM options have been well defined, it=
’s unnecessary to augment the other existing protocols to provide sim=
ilar functionality. We just need a way to encapsulate
 them.


 


Best,


Haoyu


 






From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 7:19 PM

To: Greg Mirsky <gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com>; Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6





 


Hi Haoyu,


 


The application is really interesting=
 and useful.


I am not sure if it is necessary to c=
reate a new OAM protocol at transport layer.


IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension=
 based on STAMP could be more practical.


https://=
www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt


 


Best,


Tianran  


 


From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu=
.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wro=
te:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and=
 its extensions, including the

SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;










options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change that?










 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring













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From: Haoyu Song 
To: Greg Mirsky 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Greg, please see Inline

From: Greg Mirsky 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined =
below under the GIM2>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding t=
he IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.

HS>> Let's give a few features of our proposal: (1) it's session-less and w=
e don't need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs for a return=
 path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely determined by =
the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and poten=
tially other OAM methods.
GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe from =
an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as simp=
le as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of the S=
R policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the =
operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I ima=
gine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g.,=
 ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?

HS2>> For the first point: I don't think a protocol is needed here. If one =
wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he doesn't need to find a user packet=
 on that path to carry IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instead=
, he can generate a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe=
 packet to carry IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the =
IOAM data using the mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet.
For the second point: I don't think ICMP can achieve what IOAM can do. IOAM=
 is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. Moreover, the p=
roposal can be easily extended to support other kinds of OAM methods. One j=
ust carry it in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry about th=
e size if such info has to be carried in EH TLV.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because i=
t's not included in a user packet.

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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Hi Greg, please see Inline


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g=
t; 

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my fo=
llow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM2>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wr=
ote:










Hi Greg,



 


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.



 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. =
As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active mea=
surement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to u=
se an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;


 


HS>> Let’s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=
’s session-less and we don’t need assign any roles (e.g.,  =
;reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measurement can
 start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based wh=
ich can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other OAM methods.<=
o:p>


















GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that ca=
n generate a test probe from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 s=
upports multicast) is as simple as you present. If an operator needs to mon=
itor the performance of the SR policy used
 by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the operator want=
s to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I imagine IOAM can=
 be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g., ICMP. Am I m=
issing some of the requirements?


 


HS2>> For the first point: I don’t think=
 a protocol is needed here. If one wants to test the path a->b->c->=
;d->e, he doesn’t need to find a user packet on that path to carry=
 IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instead, he can generate
 a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe packet to carry =
IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the IOAM data using t=
he mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet.  =



For the second point: I don’t think ICMP can a=
chieve what IOAM can do. IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data it=
 can collect. Moreover, the proposal can be easily extended to support othe=
r kinds of OAM methods. One just carry it
 in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry about the size if su=
ch info has to be carried in EH TLV.






















options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:<=
o:p>








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1=
.








Does your proposal change that?


 


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measur=
ement because it’s not included in a user packet.











 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring=



























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From: Huzhibo 
To: "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG' 
Thread-Topic: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 1:41 AM
To: Huzhibo ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi,

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute...). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D... no one knows and it's unp=
redictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, =
all routers have to support the mechanism.
                  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE =
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in th=
e previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter t=
han the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do=
 not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenario=
s. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result i=
n better convergence performance.

[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the hea=
d end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechani=
sm, it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR=
 working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you ar=
e mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: network=
s are never converging in 50ms).
---------->[HZB2]As the example you have mentioned,  Packet loss occurs onl=
y when C converges, but B does not converge.
                The packet loss time depends on the IGP convergence time an=
d is much shorter than the SR-TE rerouting time.
                What I want to say is that even if some nodes you mentioned=
 do not support proxy forwarding, this solution is useful for speeding up c=
onvergence.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major drawback=
s from an operational point of view.

--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only f=
ilters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, diff=
erent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to di=
fferent PF nodes.

[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has =
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FR=
R shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that ca=
n fit traffic. (See RFC7916).
So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any co=
ntrol is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates conges=
tion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow on, you'l=
l start to impact and drop other traffic which was not initially flowing th=
rough the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to customers). Keeping =
control of FRR path is a very important topic.
---------->[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected tr=
affic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced on =
all different neighbor nodes.
Second: All local FRR mechanisms take effect before convergence. In this ca=
se, other nodes on the network still route to the faulty node. Can you give=
 an example?. FRR is performed when traffic does not need to be routed to t=
he neighboring node of the faulty node.

Stephane







From: Huzhibo >
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi,

Please find more inline.


From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitk=
ows.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo >; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi,

Please find more inline.

From: Huzhibo >
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi slitkows :

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

Thanks

Zhibo Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gm=
ail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG=
' >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

1)      The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this proble=
m, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for =
the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create depl=
oyment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.
-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behav=
iors to implement SR-TE node protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node protection.

It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution solv=
es the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding seg=
ments.

[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion=
 below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion=
. As there is already a WG doc, I don't see any reason for creating another=
 one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.


2)      Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without=
 adding a strong value.



The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] =
... may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not su=
pporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in draf=
t-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat an=
d requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.



Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H =
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support th=
e extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't supp=
ort the extension, traffic will be dropped.



Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.ietf-s=
pring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]



Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G m=
ay have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution all=
ows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the solutio=
n will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all router=
s upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path to F'=
. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tacticall=
y depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the =
network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgra=
de all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there.



In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the fa=
iled node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic congest=
ion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traffi=
c. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to th=
is non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some par=
t of the same path before reaching the destination.



So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node tha=
t can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be=
 forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol =
extension is necessary.
This solution does not require that all network nodes support this extensio=
n, take the example you have mentioned :
but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extensio=
n ---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment i=
s node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds th=
e PF
node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C a=
nd D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.


[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute...). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D... no one knows and it's unp=
redictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, =
all routers have to support the mechanism.
                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-T=
E rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in =
the previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter=
 than the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network =
do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenar=
ios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result=
 in better convergence performance.

In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In=
 addition, slow deletion is required for node faults. In addition, loop pre=
vention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately dire=
ct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding.
[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major drawback=
s from an operational point of view.
   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document onl=
y filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, d=
ifferent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to=
 different PF nodes.

3)      Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there ma=
y be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot =
of burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in=
 SPRING (see next comment).


Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the c=
ontrol-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is o=
rthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding ope=
rations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not ex=
pect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.
-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and d=
o not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segme=
nts do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing a=
nd forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.

[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPR=
ING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and forward=
ing aspects could be further described in  [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protect=
ion-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is interesting to solve.
   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of =
it into the LSR.


SR-TE protection
takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path conver=
ges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal forward=
ing,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is accepta=
ble.

4)      The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR a=
s it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING =
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.
                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail reque=
sts for IGP protocols
[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding:

"For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called
   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a
   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello
   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)
   [RFC7356].

This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has t=
o be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.
--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it =
into the LSR.





Brgds,

Stephane


From: spring > On B=
ehalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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ormation that may be protected by law;

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From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 1:41 AM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; '=
SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi,


 


[SLI] Your statement is purely =
theoretical and life in real networks is not theoretical. You cannot predic=
t which router will converge first (routers may have different CPUs, may ha=
ve different tasks to execute…). B may
 converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D… no one knows and =
it’s unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mecha=
nism to work, all routers have to support the mechanism.<=
/p>

           &=
nbsp;      --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is mu=
ch faster than SR-TE rerouting,
Therefor=
e, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous example,=
 the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergence=
 time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes
 in the network do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 m=
s in some scenarios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, T=
hat would result in better convergence performance.


 


[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about=
 the head end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support=
 your mechanism, it will drop traffic and your
 FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR working, no choice, all the node=
s must support the extension (seems you are mixing convergence and protecti=
on which are two different things: networks are never converging in 50ms).



---------->[HZB2]As the example you have mentioned,  Pack=
et loss occurs only when C converges, but B does not converge.
<=
/o:p>


           =
;     The packet loss time depends on the IGP conv=
ergence time and is much shorter than the SR-TE rerouting time.
<=
/o:p>


           =
;     What I want to say is that even if some node=
s you mentioned do not support proxy forwarding, this solution is useful fo=
r speeding up convergence.


 


[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and at=
 the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the failure. =
It’s the solution, but it has major
 drawbacks from an operational point of view.


 


--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this do=
cument only filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same faul=
t point, different remote nodes select different
 PF nodes and load balance traffic to different PF nodes.=



 


[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path=
 that has been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). His=
tory of FRR shown that this is important
 to constraint/steer FRR path on path that can fit traffic. (See RFC7916).<=
o:p>


So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node with=
out any control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic crea=
tes congestion on some links the protected
 traffic was not intended to flow on, you’ll start to impact and drop=
 other traffic which was not initially flowing through the failed link/node=
 (usually hard to explain to customers). Keeping control of FRR path is a v=
ery important topic.



---------->[HZB2]First: This document does not require that al=
l affected traffic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffi=
c is still balanced on all different neighbor nodes.


Second: All local FRR mechanisms tak=
e effect before convergence. In this case, other nodes on the network still=
 route to the faulty node. Can you give
 an example?. FRR is performed when traffic does not need to be routed to t=
he neighboring node of the faulty node.


 


Stephane


 


 


 


 


 


 


 






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawe=
i.com>


Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi,


 


Please find more inline.


 


 






From: 
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mai=
lto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei=
.com>; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi,


 


Please find more inline.


 






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawe=
i.com>


Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi
slitkows :


 


Thanks for your comments, Please se=
e inline.


 


Thanks


 


Zhibo Hu






From: spring [mailto:sprin=
g-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of slitkows.iet=
f@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.=
org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi 


 


I’m NOT supporting this d=
raft for the following reasons:


 



1)     
The WG already have a W=
G document which is dealing with this problem, I don’t think that WG =
should come with multiple documents/solutions for the same solution space a=
s it may just confuse the industry and create
 deployment issues as different vendors may pic=
k different solutions.


-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defi=
nes local behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection.
 draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node prote=
ction.



&nbs=
p;


It
optimize=
d the number of entries in the Context Table.
This sol=
ution solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects b=
inding segments.


 


[SLI] While I think your argume=
nts are not completely valid (see discussion below), this has nothing to do=
 with the one draft vs two drafts discussion. As there is already a WG doc,=
 I don’t see any reason for creating
 another one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing rea=
ders.


 =




2=
)   &=
nbsp; 
Adding protocols extens=
ions adds complexity in the solution without adding a strong value.


 =



The document claims that “[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr=
-te-paths] … may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the=
 network not supporting this solution.”. While this
 is true, the proposed solution in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding has exactly the same caveat and requires all nodes in the network =
to support the solution.


 


Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D – E =
– F - G -H and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F h=
ave to support the extension to make the solution
 working, if one of the router doesn’t support the extension, traffic=
 will be dropped.



 


Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.i=
etf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]


 


Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued tha=
t G may have multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and=
 the solution allows for F’ to support the extension
 while F may not support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’=
. Well yes, but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to sup=
port this extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’=
;t think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically
 depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the n=
etwork, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrad=
e all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there.



 


In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of t=
he failed node which wasn’t initially on the path, could lead to traf=
fic congestion or high traffic peaks on links
 that were not sized to carry this traffic. We could easily expect some tra=
ffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this non-natural neighbor of the fai=
led node and then goes back over some part of the same path before reaching=
 the destination.


 


So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here=
.


---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffi=
c to a node that can perform proxy forwarding and
 solve the problem that traffic cannot be forwarded to a proxy forwarding n=
ode after IGP convergence. This protocol extension is necessary.=



This solution does not require that a=
ll network nodes support this extension, take the example you have mentione=
d :


but it still requires that all router=
s upstream to F' support this extension ---> This description is inaccur=
ate, assuming that the previous segment is
 node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the=
 PF


node F' a=
djacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and D do n=
ot support this protocol extension, this
 is not affected.


<=
o:p> 


 


[=
SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not =
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers m=
ay have different CPUs, may have different
 tasks to execute…). B may converge first maybe, but maybe it will be=
 C or D… no one knows and it’s unpredictable. So at the end, if=
 you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to support t=
he mechanism.


           =
;         --------->[HZB]IGP con=
vergence is much faster than SR-TE rerouting,
Theref=
ore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous exampl=
e, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergen=
ce time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes
 in the network do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 m=
s in some scenarios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, T=
hat would result in better convergence performance.


<=
o:p> 



In addition, th=
e Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-=
te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow=
 deletion is required for node faults.
 In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it =
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwardin=
g.


[=
SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have=
 serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has no=
thing to do with the failure. It’s the
 solution, but it has major drawbacks from an operational point of view.


   --------->[HZB] Sim=
ilar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out the node=
s that do not support PF. For the same fault point, different
 remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to differe=
nt PF nodes.


 



3=
)   &=
nbsp; 
Regarding BSID, I’=
;m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds or thousand=
s of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden in IGP. The pro=
posed way will have to be discussed in LSR,
 not in SPRING (see next comment).


 


Note that [I-D.ietf-spri=
ng-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work with BSIDs as long as BS=
ID information of failed node is available in the control-plane of PLRs by =
whatever mechanism. I think this BSID
 handling is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The =
forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, w=
e could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf =
degradation.


-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between =
neighbors and do not need to be flooded to the
 entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments do not exert pressure on IG=
P performance.The control-plane processing and forwarding-plane processing =
of the BSID are not strongly coupled.


 


[SLI] Control plane aspects of =
IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING. So please take the discuss=
ion to LSR for the control plane and forwarding aspects could be further de=
scribed in
 =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
if WGs agrees that B=
SID is interesting to solve.


   --------->[HZB]Sure=
.
We wil=
l consider whether we need to divest some of it into the LSR.


 


 


SR-TE protection    <=
/o:p>


takes effect only from the time during=
 a fault occurs to the TE path converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does =
not take effect during normal forwarding,Compared
 with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is acceptable.


 



4=
)   &=
nbsp; 
The document is current=
ly a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good details abou=
t IGP protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it should detail req=
s for protocols but nothing beyond.


            &=
nbsp;   --=
----->As
 you said, this document defines the detail requests for IGP protocols=



[SLI] No it goes beyond require=
ments and already talks about encoding:





=
“For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called



   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It=
 contains a binding SID and a



   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV m=
ay be advertised in IS-IS Hello



   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Li=
nk State PDUs (CS-LSP)



   [RFC7356].




 


This is not a requirement; this=
 is an IS-IS solution description that has to be discussed in LSR not in SP=
RING.


--------->[HZB]Sure.
We wil=
l consider whether we need to divest some of it into the LSR.


 


 


 


 


 


Brgds,


 


Stephane


 


 






From: spring <spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of bruno.decr=
aene@orange.com

Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.     



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________=



 


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Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm]  Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Tianran,

The use case I target  is to generate probing packets to collect node/link =
data on arbitrary path. We have algorithms to generate such packets on a fe=
w path to cover the entire network (reference is given in the draft). If we=
 periodically do such measurements, we can gain the visibility of the whole=
 network and detect the gray failures, which can have countless  useful app=
lications.

Why using UDP rather than EH TLV? here's some of my thoughts. First, I don'=
t need to do it in user packets, so essentially the payload is free to use.
Second, there are a lot of discussions and debates on the size/location of =
the IPv6 EHs, and there are so many proposals want to use the EHs. I don't =
want to add more complexity to it.
Third, the proposal can be extended to support other OAM schemes using the =
same method. Of course, you can also keep introducing new TLV options to EH=
. But again, that's the path I don't want to go.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Tianran Zhou 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 4:22 PM
To: Haoyu Song ; Greg Mirsky 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,

I do not understand why the UDP encapsulation is better than SRH TLV.
IMO, IOAM is already too complex, some more work on TLV parsing is not crit=
ical.
If you care about the data length "because the data needed to be carried ma=
y be too large", what's the limit on SRH TLV?
What's your use case, and your requirement? Let's evaluate it with numbers.

Best,
Tianran

From: Haoyu Song [mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 2:50 AM
To: Tianran Zhou >; G=
reg Mirsky >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Tianran,

We didn't invent any new protocol but to simply use UDP for the probing pac=
kets in SRv6.
What we want to avoid is SRH TLV in EH which can significantly increase the=
 EH overhead because the data needed to be carried may be too large.
Also, since IOAM options have been well defined, it's unnecessary to augmen=
t the other existing protocols to provide similar functionality. We just ne=
ed a way to encapsulate them.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Tianran Zhou >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 7:19 PM
To: Greg Mirsky >; Haoy=
u Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,

The application is really interesting and useful.
I am not sure if it is necessary to create a new OAM protocol at transport =
layer.
IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension based on STAMP could be more practica=
l.
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt=


Best,
Tianran

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like ad=
ding the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Tianran,


 


The use case I target  is to generate probing =
packets to collect node/link data on arbitrary path. We have algorithms to =
generate such packets on a few path to cover the entire
 network (reference is given in the draft). If we periodically do such meas=
urements, we can gain the visibility of the whole network and detect the gr=
ay failures, which can have countless  useful applications.



 


Why using UDP rather than EH TLV? here’s some=
 of my thoughts. First, I don’t need to do it in user packets, so ess=
entially the payload is free to use.



Second, there are a lot of discussions and debates =
on the size/location of the IPv6 EHs, and there are so many proposals want =
to use the EHs. I don’t want to add more complexity
 to it.


Third, the proposal can be extended to support othe=
r OAM schemes using the same method. Of course, you can also keep introduci=
ng new TLV options to EH. But again, that’s the
 path I don’t want to go. 


 


Best,


Haoyu


 






From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@h=
uawei.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 4:22 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>; Greg Mirsky <gre=
gimirsky@gmail.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6





 


Hi Haoyu,


 


I do not understand why the UDP encap=
sulation is better than SRH TLV.


IMO, IOAM is already too complex, som=
e more work on TLV parsing is not critical.


If you care about the data length =
220;because the data needed to be carried may be too large”, whatR=
17;s the limit on SRH TLV?


What’s your use case, and your =
requirement? Let’s evaluate it with numbers.



 


Best,


Tianran



 






From: Haoyu Song [mailto:haoyu.song@futurewei.com]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 2:50 AM

To: Tianran Zhou <zhout=
ianran@huawei.com>; Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6





 


Hi Tianran,


 


We didn’t invent any new protocol but to simp=
ly use UDP for the probing packets in SRv6.



What we want to avoid is SRH TLV in EH which can si=
gnificantly increase the EH overhead because the data needed to be carried =
may be too large.



Also, since IOAM options have been well defined, it=
’s unnecessary to augment the other existing protocols to provide sim=
ilar functionality. We just need a way to encapsulate
 them.


 


Best,


Haoyu


 






From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 7:19 PM

To: Greg Mirsky <gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com>; Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6





 


Hi Haoyu,


 


The application is really interesting=
 and useful.


I am not sure if it is necessary to c=
reate a new OAM protocol at transport layer.


IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension=
 based on STAMP could be more practical.


https://=
www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt


 


Best,


Tianran  


 


From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu=
.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wro=
te:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and=
 its extensions, including the

SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;










options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change that?










 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring














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In-Reply-To: 
From: Greg Mirsky 
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:17:19 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000753b9105d69b0984"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Haoyu,
now, without in-lining my notes.
It appears that you propose not to use draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options
.
Thus, your proposal cannot be referred to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is
IOAM-inspired, IOAMish. As a result, a node supporting standardized IOAM
would not understand your probe packet without an SW upgrade. In my book,
that's a new protocol.
In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger Geib
, where
combining the defined techniques of steering test probes with standard IOAM
might reveal a lot of useful information about a network:

   - RFC 8403 
   - draft-ietf-ippm-connectivity-monitoring
   


Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song  wrote=
:

> Hi Greg, please see Inline
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky 
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM
> *To:* Haoyu Song 
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
> thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-line=
d
> below under the GIM2>> tag.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Haoyu
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
> *To:* Haoyu Song 
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
> thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the
> concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft
>  it
> seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the
> right thing to do.
>
> Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song 
> wrote:
>
> Hi SPRING WG,
>
>
>
> Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary
> to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard
> to catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficien=
t
> planning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6
> In-situ Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement
> approach which can support different
>
> GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement
> protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an
> acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions,
> including the SRPM draft
> ,
> comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
>
>
>
> HS>> Let=E2=80=99s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=E2=80=99s =
session-less and
> we don=E2=80=99t need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs f=
or a
> return path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely
> determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM
> modes and potentially other OAM methods.
>
> GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe fro=
m
> an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as
> simple as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of
> the SR policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. =
If
> the operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic,=
 I
> imagine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol,
> e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?
>
>
>
> HS2>> For the first point: I don=E2=80=99t think a protocol is needed her=
e. If one
> wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he doesn=E2=80=99t need to find a u=
ser packet
> on that path to carry IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instea=
d,
> he can generate a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe
> packet to carry IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the
> IOAM data using the mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet=
.
>
> For the second point: I don=E2=80=99t think ICMP can achieve what IOAM ca=
n do.
> IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. Moreover,
> the proposal can be easily extended to support other kinds of OAM methods=
.
> One just carry it in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry
> about the size if such info has to be carried in EH TLV.
>
> options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry
> about the extension header issue.
>
> GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
>
>    In terms of the classification given
>
>    in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
>
> Does your proposal change that?
>
>
>
> HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because
> it=E2=80=99s not included in a user packet.
>
>
>
> Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I=E2=80=99d l=
ike to
> know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopte=
d
> by the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work=
,
> please also let me know.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/
> 
>
>
>
> Thank you very much!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Haoyu
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>
>

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Hi Haoy=
u,
now, without in-lining my notes.
It appears that you propo=
se not to use draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, your propos=
al cannot be referred to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-inspired, IOA=
Mish. As a result, a node supporting standardized IOAM would not understand=
 your probe packet without an SW upgrade. In my book, that's a new prot=
ocol.
In closing, I'll reference two works by=C2=A0Ruediger Geib, where combining the defined techniques of steering te=
st probes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of useful information about=
 a network:
Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote=
:











Hi Greg, please see Inline


=C2=A0




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> 

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




=C2=A0








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my fo=
llow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM2>> tag.






=C2=A0






Regards,






Greg






=C2=A0






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@future=
wei.com> wrote:










Hi Greg,



=C2=A0


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline resp=
onse.



=C2=A0


Best,


Haoyu


=C2=A0




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




=C2=A0








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft=C2=A0it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do.=C2=A0






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






=C2=A0






Regards,






Greg






=C2=A0






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurew=
ei.com> wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


=C2=A0


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a =
network is necessary to detect =C2=A0gray failures, which are the key culpr=
it for poor QoS but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost. =C2=A0=C2=A0Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple =C2=A0active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.=
=C2=A0


=C2=A0


HS>> Let=E2=80=99s give a few features of our =
proposal: (1) it=E2=80=99s session-less and we don=E2=80=99t need assign an=
y roles (e.g., =C2=A0reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measur=
ement can
 start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based wh=
ich can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other OAM methods.<=
u>


















GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol tha=
t can generate a test probe from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SR=
v6 supports multicast) is as simple as you present. If an operator needs to=
 monitor the performance of the SR policy used
 by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the operator want=
s to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I imagine IOAM can=
 be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g., ICMP. Am I m=
issing some of the requirements?


=C2=A0


HS2>> For the first point: I don=E2=80=99t thi=
nk a protocol is needed here. If one wants to test the path a->b->c-&=
gt;d->e, he doesn=E2=80=99t need to find a user packet on that path to c=
arry IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instead, he can generate
 a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe packet to carry =
IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the IOAM data using t=
he mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet. =C2=A0<=
/u>


For the second point: I don=E2=80=99t think ICMP can=
 achieve what IOAM can do. IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data =
it can collect. Moreover, the proposal can be easily extended to support ot=
her kinds of OAM methods. One just carry it
 in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry about the size if su=
ch info has to be carried in EH TLV.






















options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, witho=
ut needing to worry about the extension header issue. =C2=A0<=
/p>









GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








=C2=A0 =C2=A0In terms of the classification given=







=C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change=C2=A0that?

=C2=A0


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for=
 active measurement because it=E2=80=99s not included in a user packet.











=C2=A0


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very w=
elcome. I=E2=80=99d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in =
scope and should be adopted by the working group.=C2=A0 If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/<=
/p>

=C2=A0


Thank you very much!


=C2=A0


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<=
/u>





























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To: Huzhibo , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Huzhibo,

Pls see inline for replies..



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Huzhibo 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:59 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRIN=
G WG 
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hi Shraddha:

     Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

Thanks

Zhibo Hu


From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:15 PM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRING WG =
>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

WG,

I  don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt support the adoption of this document as a WG document.

I am in agreement with stephane=1B$B!G=1B(Bs comments on the list.


  1.  May cause congestion somewhere else in the network
There is already WG adopted document that is addressing the problem space
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.
This draft does not provide significant advantages over the proposed soluti=
ons in
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better s=
olution when all nodes
have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding in=
troduces protocol extensions
and the nodes that aren=1B$B!G=1B(Bt upgraded to understand the extensions =
will drop the traffic so there isn=1B$B!G=1B(Bt
any significant improvement in the approach.

In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding may
cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking since it proposes that =
 any neighbor that
claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the protected traffic.

For ex:

[cid:image001.jpg@01D8142C.5BB980F0]

In above diagram
SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5
Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding
On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4
RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path
RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5

In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.

Operationally this solution is very complex to manage. A network that start=
s with no segment protection,
It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have not been upgraded but c=
ausing congestion
somewhere else would be difficult to debug.
------=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB] Traffic detour may exist in all local FRR mechanism=
s and is not unique to this solution, including TI-LFA.SR-TE Path protectio=
n etc=1B$B!$=1B(B
 The problem I am indicating is not traffic detour, it is about bandwid=
th double booking on interfaces.

              The solution described in [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protecti=
on-sr-te-paths] also has this problem.for example you have mentioned,
If using the solution of [ draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths=
], On failure of RT3, If the last calculated reachable path to RT3 is RT1->=
RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3,

RT1 maintains the path of RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3 for forwarding during the=
 Holdtimer period. Then, RT4 performs Proxy Forwarding and RT1->RT6->RT7->R=
T4->RT7->RT4->RT5. It also traverses the link 3 times from RT7 to RT4.
I think extending the protocol is a much simpler way than slow route deleti=
on and loop solving.

 This is incorrect example. Here the traffic is sent twice on RT7->RT4 =
interface twice even before the failure.
           This is problem with how SR-TE calculated the path and not a pro=
blem with procedures described in
            draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths



  1.  BSID solution
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discus=
s the solution for BSIDs.
Most of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is =
assigned on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. S=
ection 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths discusses th=
is approach.
             draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  provides a p=
rotection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.

 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection problem when anycast soluti=
on is not in use, I would prefer the
              Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spring-segment-pr=
otection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely   different s=
olution based on proxy forwarding which has other implications described in=
 point 1.
------=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB]I don`t think that most of the BSID deployments use =
anycast based solution=1B$B!$=1B(BStrict path control is required in most s=
cenarios, and anycast is not introduced.
                 If Bsid is not addressed, it will not be a complete protec=
tion solution.

Rgds
Shraddha



Juniper Business Use Only
From: spring spring-bounces@ietf.org On Beh=
alf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.

--_000_CO1PR05MB831457A3D14A2E2BA55D6049D5229CO1PR05MB8314namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Huzhibo,<=
o:p>


&nbs=
p;


Pls see i=
nline for replies..


&nbs=
p;


 =




Juniper Business Use Only






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo=3D40huawei.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org> 

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:59 PM

To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


<=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]


=
 




Hi Sh=
raddha:


 


   &nbs=
p; 
Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.


 


Thank=
s


 


Zhibo=
 Hu


=
 


=
 






From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:15 PM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.or=
g>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


WG,


 


I  don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt support the adoption of thi=
s document as a WG document.


 


I am in agreement with stephane=1B$B!G=1B(Bs comment=
s on the list.


 


    

  1. May cause congestion somewhere else in the network
    2. <=
/ol>

    There is already WG adopted document that is address=
ing the problem space
    

    draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 
    

    This draft does not provide significant advantages o=
ver the proposed solutions in

    

    draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 
    

    draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding cla=
ims to provide better solution when all nodes
    

    have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-rout=
ing-proxy-forwarding introduces protocol extensions
    

    and the nodes that aren=1B$B!G=1B(Bt upgraded to und=
erstand the extensions will drop the traffic so there isn=1B$B!G=1B(Bt=

    

    any significant improvement in the approach. 
    

     
    

    In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-s=
egment-routing-proxy-forwarding may

    

    cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking =
since it proposes that  any neighbor that
    

    claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the =
protected traffic.
    

     
    

    For ex:
    

     
    

    

     
    

    In above diagram 
    

    SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5 
    

    Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding
    

    On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via=
 RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4
    

    RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path=

    

    RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5
    

     
    

    In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7-=
>RT4 link 3 times.
    

     
    

    Operationally this solution is very complex to manag=
e. A network that starts with no segment protection,
    

    It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have =
not been upgraded but causing congestion

    

    somewhere else would be difficult to debug.
    

    -----=
-=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB]
Traffic detour may exist in =
all local FRR mechanisms and is not unique to this solution, including TI-L=
FA.SR-TE Path protection etc=1B$B!$=1B(B
    

    <SH> The problem I am indicating is not traffi=
c detour, it is about bandwidth double booking on interfaces.

            &nbs=
p;  
    

     =
;             T=
he solution described in [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]=
 also has this problem.for example you have mentioned,

    If us=
ing the solution of [ draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths],
On failure of RT3, If the la=
st calculated reachable path to RT3 is RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3,=

    

     
    

    RT1 m=
aintains the path of RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3 for forwarding dur=
ing the Holdtimer period. Then, RT4 performs Proxy Forwarding and RT1->R=
T6->RT7->RT4->RT7->RT4->RT5. It also traverses the
 link 3 times from RT7 to RT4.
    

    I thi=
nk extending the protocol is a much simpler way than slow route deletion an=
d loop solving.
    

     
    

    <SH> This is incorrect example. Here the traff=
ic is sent twice on RT7->RT4 interface twice even before the failure.
    

            &nbs=
p;  This is problem with how SR-TE calculated the path and not a probl=
em with procedures described in

    

     =
;           draft-ie=
tf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
    

     
    

    =
 
    

      

    1. BSID solution
    

    draft-ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discuss the solution for BSIDs.=

    

    Most of the BSID deployme=
nts use anycast based solution where same BSID is assigned on anycast nodes=
 and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. Section 2.2 in draft-ietf-=
spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
 discusses this approach.
    

            &nbs=
p;    draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  =
;provides a protection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.<=
/o:p>
    

            &nbs=
p;   
    

     If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection=
 problem when anycast solution is not in use, I would prefer the=

    

            &nbs=
p;     Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spri=
ng-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely&=
nbsp;  different solution based on proxy forwarding which has other im=
plications described in point 1.
    

    ------=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB]I don`t think that
most of the BSID deployments use anyca=
st based solution=1B$B!$=1B(BStrict path c=
ontrol is required in most scenarios, and anycast is
 not introduced. 

               &n=
bsp;     If Bsid is not addressed, it will not be =
a complete protection solution.
    

     
    

    Rgds
    

    Shraddha
    

     
    

     
    

    
Juniper Business Use Only
    

    

    

    From: spring 
spring-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
    
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM
    
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>
    
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding
    

    

    

     
    

    <=
span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",san=
s-serif;color:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]
    

     
    

    

    Dear WG,
    

     
    

    This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending=
 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
    

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-for=
warding/
    

     
    

    After review of the document please indicate support =
(or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.
    

     
    

    Please also provide comments/reasons for your support=
 (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support=
 as this is not a vote.

    

     
    

    If you are willing to work on or review the document,=
 please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the e=
nergy level of people in the working group willing
 to work on the document.
    

     
    

    Thanks!
    

    Bruno, Jim, Joel
    

    ________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________=

    

     
    

    Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informatio=
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--_000_CO1PR05MB831457A3D14A2E2BA55D6049D5229CO1PR05MB8314namp_--

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From: Shraddha Hegde 
To: Huaimo Chen , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG 
Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Huaimo,



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Huaimo Chen 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 2:39 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRIN=
G WG 
Subject: Re: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hi Shraddha,

    Thank you for your comments.

    I remember that I talked to you face to face in IETF meeting and
suggested merging your draft and our draft a long time ago before
your draft is adopted. You said it would be ok to have the two drafts
in WG.
 I honestly don't remember the conversation. I would be OK with two dra=
fts
If the proxy forwarding was adding value but I see that it has no significa=
nt benefits
As compared to the existing WG adopted draft.


In addition, I sent you an email to ask for merging the two drafts,
but did not receive any reply from you.

    I also remember that Zhibo supported the adoption of your draft.

    These two drafts have some overlaps and differences. Our draft
refers to yours for the overlaps, but focuses on the different
method for protection and the area your draft does not cover.
 BSID protection when anycast is not in use is the area your draft
Covers and is not covered by draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-pat=
hs.
proxy forwarding is a solution that overlaps existing solution space and is=
 completely different
from existing solution space. For BSID protection, proxy forwarding is not =
necessary.
It can be solved using context tables by learning the details of the BSID f=
rom neighbors.
It would be good to see how many operators are really interested in this ki=
nd of BSID protection.


    For example, your draft talks about using anycast SID to protect
node failure. I remember that this was discussed in IETF meeting and
some issues were raised by others.
 There are no open issues AFAIKT.
We do not use anycast SID for
protection.
The draft draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths  proposes
anycast SID as one of the ways to achieve protection (It is the most common=
 deployed
mechanisms to achieve protection in SR networks in my knowledge.)

    Regarding to "May cause congestion somewhere else in the network",
this seems true for the two drafts when a node failed.
 The issue I brought up was more for the bandwidth double booking on in=
terfaces and it
May happen in proxy forwarding as the proxy forwarder may not lie in the sh=
ortest path
But may be on the otherside.

Best Regards,
Huaimo

________________________________
From: spring > on b=
ehalf of Shraddha Hegde >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:15 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com >; SPRING WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding


WG,



I  don't support the adoption of this document as a WG document.



I am in agreement with stephane's comments on the list.



1.       May cause congestion somewhere else in the network

There is already WG adopted document that is addressing the problem space

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.

This draft does not provide significant advantages over the proposed soluti=
ons in

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.

draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better s=
olution when all nodes

have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding in=
troduces protocol extensions

and the nodes that aren't upgraded to understand the extensions will drop t=
he traffic so there isn't

any significant improvement in the approach.



In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding may

cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking since it proposes that =
 any neighbor that

claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the protected traffic.



For ex:



[cid:image001.png@01D8142C.DBA09380]



In above diagram

SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5

Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding

On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4

RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path

RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5



In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.



Operationally this solution is very complex to manage. A network that start=
s with no segment protection,

It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have not been upgraded but c=
ausing congestion

somewhere else would be difficult to debug.



2.       BSID solution

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discus=
s the solution for BSIDs.

Most of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is =
assigned on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. S=
ection 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths discusses th=
is approach.

             draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  provides a p=
rotection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.



 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection problem when anycast soluti=
on is not in use, I would prefer the

              Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spring-segment-pr=
otection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely   different s=
olution based on proxy forwarding which has other implications described in=
 point 1.





Rgds

Shraddha





Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring spring-bounces@ietf.org On Beh=
alf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



Dear WG,



This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/



After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.



If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.



Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.

--_000_CO1PR05MB8314A8CD514669F282A3F7B9D5229CO1PR05MB8314namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Huaimo,


 


 



Juniper Business Use Only






From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.c=
om> 

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 2:39 AM

To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


<=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 






Hi Shra=
ddha, 





&n=
bsp;






  =
  Thank you for your comments.






&n=
bsp;






  =
  I remember that I talked to you face to face in IETF meeting and







suggest=
ed merging your draft and our draft a long time ago before






your dr=
aft is adopted. You said it would be ok to have the two drafts







in WG. =



<SH> I honestly don’t remember the conve=
rsation. I would be OK with two drafts


If the proxy forwarding was adding value but I see t=
hat it has no significant benefits


As compared to the existing WG adopted draft.


 


 


In addi=
tion, I sent you an email to ask for merging the two drafts,






but did=
 not receive any reply from you.






&n=
bsp;






  =
  I also remember that Zhibo supported the adoption of your draft.






&n=
bsp;






  =
  These two drafts have some overlaps and differences. Our draft<=
/o:p>






refers =
to yours for the overlaps, but focuses on the different







method =
for protection and the area your draft does not cover.



<SH> BSID protection when anycast is not in us=
e is the area your draft


Covers and is not covered by draft-ietf-spring-segme=
nt-protection-sr-te-paths.


proxy forwarding is a solution that overlaps existin=
g solution space and is completely different


from existing solution space. For BSID protection, p=
roxy forwarding is not necessary.


It can be solved using context tables by learning th=
e details of the BSID from neighbors.


It would be good to see how many operators are reall=
y interested in this kind of BSID protection.


 






&n=
bsp;






  =
  For example, your draft talks about using anycast SID to protect







node fa=
ilure. I remember that this was discussed in IETF meeting and






some is=
sues were raised by others.



<SH> There are no open issues AFAIKT.


We do n=
ot use anycast SID for






protect=
ion.


<SH>The draft draft-ietf-spring-segment-protec=
tion-sr-te-paths  proposes


anycast SID as one of the ways to achieve protection=
 (It is the most common deployed


mechanisms to achieve protection in SR networks in m=
y knowledge.)






&n=
bsp;






  =
  Regarding to "May cause congestion somewhere else in the networ=
k",






this se=
ems true for the two drafts when a node failed.


<SH> The issue I brought up was more for the b=
andwidth double booking on interfaces and it


May happen in proxy forwarding as the proxy forwarde=
r may not lie in the shortest path


But may be on the otherside. 






&n=
bsp;






Best Re=
gards,




Huaimo<=
o:p>








&n=
bsp;












From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.ne=
t@dmarc.ietf.org>

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:15 AM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com <bruno.decraene@=
orange.com>; SPRING WG <spring=
@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding





 










WG,


 


I  don’t support the adoption of this do=
cument as a WG document.


 


I am in agreement with stephane’s comments on=
 the list.


 



1.      
May cause congestion somewhere else in the netwo=
rk


There is already WG adopted document that is addres=
sing the problem space


draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. <=
o:p>


This draft does not provide significant advantages =
over the proposed solutions in



draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. <=
o:p>


draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding cl=
aims to provide better solution when all nodes


have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding introduces protocol extensions


and the nodes that aren’t upgraded to underst=
and the extensions will drop the traffic so there isn’t

any significant improvement in the approach. <=
/o:p>


 


In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-=
segment-routing-proxy-forwarding may



cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking=
 since it proposes that  any neighbor that


claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the=
 protected traffic.


 


For ex:


 




 


In above diagram 


SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5 


Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding


On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 vi=
a RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4


RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path


RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5


 


In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7=
->RT4 link 3 times.


 


Operationally this solution is very complex to mana=
ge. A network that starts with no segment protection,


It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have=
 not been upgraded but causing congestion



somewhere else would be difficult to debug.


 



2.      
BSID solution


draft-ietf-spring-segmen=
t-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discuss the solution for BSIDs=
.


Most of the BSID deploym=
ents use anycast based solution where same BSID is assigned on anycast node=
s and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. Section 2.2 in draft-ietf=
-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
 discusses this approach.


        &nb=
sp;    draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding &nbs=
p;provides a protection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.=



        &nb=
sp;   


 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protectio=
n problem when anycast solution is not in use, I would prefer the


        &nb=
sp;     Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spr=
ing-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely=
   different solution based on proxy forwarding which has other i=
mplications described in point 1.


 


 


Rgds


Shraddha


 


 


Juniper Business Use Only






From: spring 
spring-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


=
[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, endin=
g 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spr=
ing-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please indicate support=
 (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.<=
/o:p>


 


Please also provide comments/reasons for your suppor=
t (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) suppor=
t as this is not a vote.



 


If you are willing to work on or review the document=
, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the =
energy level of people in the working group willing
 to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<=
o:p>


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<=
o:p>


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
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If you have received this email in error, please not=
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As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
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Thank you.
















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Content-Type: text/html; charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Shraddha,


 


Pls see inline for replies.


 


 






From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:20 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; S=
PRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


Huzhibo,


 


Pls see inline for replies..


 


&nbs=
p;



Juniper Business=
 Use Only






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:59 PM

To: Shraddha Hegde <shrad=
dha@juniper.net>;
bruno.decraene@orange.com;=
 SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


<=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Lato;color:black"=
>[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Hi Shraddha:


 


&=
nbsp;    Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.


 


Thanks


 


Zhibo Hu


 


 






From: spring [mailto:sprin=
g-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:15 PM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.or=
g>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


WG,


 


I  don=A1=AFt support the =
adoption of this document as a WG document.


 


I am in agreement with stephane=
=A1=AFs comments on the list.


 =




1.  &nbs=
p;   
May cause conges=
tion somewhere else in the network


There is already WG adopted doc=
ument that is addressing the problem space


draft-ietf-spring-segment-prote=
ction-sr-te-paths.



This draft does not provide sig=
nificant advantages over the proposed solutions in



draft-ietf-spring-segment-prote=
ction-sr-te-paths.



draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better solution when all nodes


have not been upgraded. draft-h=
u-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding introduces protocol extensions


and the nodes that aren=A1=AFt =
upgraded to understand the extensions will drop the traffic so there isn=A1=
=AFt


any significant improvement in =
the approach.



 


In fact, the approach described=
 in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding may



cause other issues such as band=
width double booking since it proposes that  any neighbor that


claims proxy forwarding will be=
 used to forward the protected traffic.


 


For ex:


 


3D"cid:image001.jpg@01D8144F.FFE59EC0"


 


In above diagram 


SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->R=
T7->RT5 


Only RT4 supports proxy-forward=
ing


On failure of RT3, RT1 would se=
nd traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4


RT4 will then send to RT7 as pe=
r the SR-TE path


RT7 will then send to RT5 via R=
T7->RT4->RT5


 


In this example, same traffic i=
s traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.


 


Operationally this solution is =
very complex to manage. A network that starts with no segment protection,


It may be ok to drop the traffi=
c if some nodes have not been upgraded but causing congestion



somewhere else would be difficu=
lt to debug.


------=A1=B7[HZB]
Traffi=
c detour may exist in all local FRR mechanisms and is not unique to this so=
lution, including TI-LFA.SR-TE Path protection etc=A3=AC


<SH> The problem I am ind=
icating is not traffic detour, it is about bandwidth double booking on inte=
rfaces.


     &=
nbsp;     


           =
;   The solution described in [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protecti=
on-sr-te-paths] also has this problem.for example you have mentioned,<=
/o:p>


If using the solution of [ draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-s=
r-te-paths],
On fai=
lure of RT3, If the last calculated reachable path to RT3 is RT1->RT6-&g=
t;RT7->RT4->RT3,


 


RT1 maintains the path of RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3 for=
 forwarding during the Holdtimer period. Then, RT4 performs Proxy Forwardin=
g and RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT7->RT4->RT5. It also traverse=
s
 the link 3 times from RT7 to RT4.


I think extending the protocol is a much simpler way than slow ro=
ute deletion and loop solving.


 


<SH> This is incorrect ex=
ample. Here the traffic is sent twice on RT7->RT4 interface twice even b=
efore the failure.


     &=
nbsp;     This is problem with how SR-TE calculated the=
 path and not a problem with procedures described in



           =
; draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths

------=A1=B7[HZB2]  draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-=
te-paths
 mentioned=A3=BA





If the Node-SID or Prefix-SID becomes



   unreachable, the event and resulting forwarding =
changes should not



   communicated to the forwarding planes on all con=
figured routers



   (including PLRs for the failed node) until the h=
old-timer expires.



   The traffic will continue to follow the previous=
 path and get FRR



   protection on the PLR.




         On failure of RT3=A3=
=ACRT1
 detects the Link RT3-RT2, Link RT3-RT6 and Link RT3-RT7 failure first. RT<=
/span>=
1`s  shorest Path to RT3 is
RT1-&g=
t;RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3, And then RT1
detects the Link RT3-RT4 failure.
 =
The Node-Sid of RT3 become unreachable.


         RT1 will keep th=
e previous path RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3. Packets are forwarded =
to RT4 for PLR, RT4 will send next segment RT7=A3=ACRT7
 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5.

The p=
ath described in this case is exactly the same as the forwarding path descr=
ibed in your example=A3=A8In
 both cases, RT4 is selected as the PLR, and the results are the same.=A3=A9 I don't know why you think one is 3 times and=
   the other is 2 times.
So, for draft-ietf-sp=
ring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths=
=A3=ACEven
 if all nodes support this draft, it is possible that traversing the RT7-&g=
t;RT4 link 3 times.
You actually gave an =
example of reacting [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] disa=
dvantages.


        


 



2.  &nbs=
p;   
BSID solution


dr=
aft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discuss =
the solution for BSIDs.


Mo=
st of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is as=
signed on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. Sec=
tion 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
 discusses this approach.


     &=
nbsp;       draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-p=
roxy-forwarding  provides a protection solution for BSIDs when anycast=
 is not in use.


     &=
nbsp;      


 If WG is inclined to solv=
e the BSID protection problem when anycast solution is not in use, I would =
prefer the


     &=
nbsp;        Approach to be more aligned=
 with draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. I do not support In=
troducing completely   different solution based on proxy forwardi=
ng which has other implications described
 in point 1.


------=A1=B7[HZB]I don`t
 think that most of the=
 BSID deployments use anycast based solution=A3=ACStrict path control is required in most scenarios,
 and anycast is not introduced. 



         =
;        If Bsid is not addressed, =
it will not be a complete protection solution.


 


Rgds


Shraddha


 


 



Juniper Business=
 Use Only






From: spring
spring-bounces@ietf.org O=
n Behalf Of
bruno.decraene@orange.com<=
/a>

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


<=
span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Lato;color:black">[E=
xternal Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segm=
ent-routing-proxy-forwarding/<=
/span>


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________=



 


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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi,

 

[SLI2].... To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the
extension. ...

[HC]: When some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for some
failures.

 

[SLI3]: MAY or MAY NOT, there is absolutely no guarantee, then an SP who
wants to keep the guarantee of FRR (FRR is a guaranteed SLA to their
customers), they must deploy everywhere.

I'm always trying to think with realistic deployments in mind, not just
theoretical case on paper.

 

 

From: Huaimo Chen  
Sent: jeudi 27 janvier 2022 23:03
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; 'Huzhibo' ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi Stephane,

 

    Thank you for your comments.

 

[SLI2].... To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the
extension. ...

[HC]: When some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for some
failures.

 

Best Regards, 

Huaimo

  _____  

From: spring  > on
behalf of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
 >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:40 PM
To: 'Huzhibo'  >;
bruno.decraene@orange.com 
 >; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding 

 

Hi,

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the
previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than
the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If
all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result in
better convergence performance.

 

[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the head
end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechanism,
it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR
working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you are
mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: networks
are never converging in 50ms). 

 

 

 

 

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

 

--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point,
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to
different PF nodes.

 

[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FRR
shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that can
fit traffic. (See RFC7916).

So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any
control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates
congestion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow on,
you'll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not initially
flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to customers).
Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic. 

 

 

Stephane

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Huzhibo  > 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

 

From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
[mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo  >;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

From: Huzhibo  > 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi slitkows :

 

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

 

Thanks

 

Zhibo Hu

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING
WG'  >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi 

 

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

 

1.	The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this
problem, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions
for the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create
deployment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.

-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local
behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection.
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node
protection. 

 

It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution
solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding
segments.

 

[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion
below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion.
As there is already a WG doc, I don't see any reason for creating another
one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.

 

2.	Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without
adding a strong value.

 

The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] .
may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not
supporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat
and requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.

 

Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the
extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't support
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 

 

Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]

 

Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G
may have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution
allows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the
solution will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all
routers upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path
to F'. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work
tactically depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion
of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to
upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is
there. 

 

In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the
failed node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic
congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this
traffic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes
to this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some
part of the same path before reaching the destination.

 

So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.

---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that
can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol
extension is necessary.

This solution does not require that all network nodes support this
extension, take the example you have mentioned :

but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extension
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is
node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the
PF

node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C
and D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.

 

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the
previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than
the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If
all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result in
better convergence performance.

 

In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols,
but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required for node faults.
In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy
forwarding.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point,
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to
different PF nodes.

 

3.	Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may
be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of
burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING (see next comment).

 

Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the
control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is
orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding
operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not
expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.

-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do
not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing and
forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.

 

[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and
forwarding aspects could be further described in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is
interesting to solve.

   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of
it into the LSR.

 

 

SR-TE protection    

takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal
forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is
acceptable.

 

4.	The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as
it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.

                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail
requests for IGP protocols

[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding: 

"For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called

   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a

   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello

   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)

   [RFC7356].

 

This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to
be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.

--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it
into the LSR.

 

 

 

 

 

Brgds,

 

Stephane

 

 

From: spring  > On
Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com  
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG  >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa
rding/

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.


 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
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falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been
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Thank you.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01D8142B.06FE0690
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi,
 
[SLI2].... To =
get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension. =
...
[HC]: When =
some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for some =
failures.
 
[SLI3]: MAY or MAY NOT, there is absolutely no =
guarantee, then an SP who wants to keep the guarantee of FRR (FRR is a =
guaranteed SLA to their customers), they must deploy =
everywhere.
I’m always trying =
to think with realistic deployments in mind, not just theoretical case =
on paper.
 
 
From: Huaimo Chen =
<huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> 
Sent: jeudi 27 janvier 2022 =
23:03
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; 'Huzhibo' =
<huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' =
<spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call =
- =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi Stephane,
 
=

    Thank you for your =
comments.
 
=

[SLI2].... To =
get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension. =
...
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal>[HC]: When =
some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for some =
failures.
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> 
=

Best Regards, =

Huaimo
=

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> =
on behalf of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com =
<slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:40 PM
To: =
'Huzhibo' <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com =
<bruno.decraene@orange.com&g=
t;; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding =

 
Hi,
 
[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life =
in real networks is not theoretical. You cannot predict which router =
will converge first (routers may have different CPUs, may have different =
tasks to execute…). B may converge first maybe, but maybe it will =
be C or D… no one knows and it’s unpredictable. So at the =
end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to =
support the mechanism.
     &n=
bsp;            =
--------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE =
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is =
slower than node C and node D in the previous example, the convergence =
time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergence time of the =
SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not support the convergence, =
convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If all nodes in the =
network support the convergence, That would result in better convergence =
performance.
 
[SLI2]of course SR-TE will =
converge slower, I never discussed about the head end. My point: =
 If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechanism, it =
will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR =
working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you =
are mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: =
networks are never converging in 50ms). 
 
 
 
 
[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do =
proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and at the end cause =
damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the failure. It’s =
the solution, but it has major drawbacks from an operational point of =
view.
 
--------->[HZB] Similar to =
the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out the nodes =
that do not support PF. For the same fault point, different remote nodes =
select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to different PF =
nodes.
 
[SLI2] =
The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has been =
sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FRR =
shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that =
can fit traffic. (See RFC7916).
So, =
letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any =
control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates =
congestion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow =
on, you’ll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not =
initially flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain =
to customers). Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic. =

 
 
Stephane
 
 
 
 
 
 
From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> =

Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
Please find more inline.
 
 
From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: =
Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
Please find more inline.
 
From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> =

Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi slitkows =
:
 
Thanks for your comments, =
Please see inline.
 
Thanks
 
Zhibo =
Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi =

 
I’m NOT supporting this draft for the following =
reasons:
 
  1. The WG already have a WG document =
which is dealing with this problem, I don’t think that WG should =
come with multiple documents/solutions for the same solution space as it =
may just confuse the industry and create deployment issues as different =
vendors may pick different solutions.
-----> =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behaviors =
to implement SR-TE node protection. =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node =
protection. 
 
It optimized the number of entries =
in the Context Table. This solution solves the =
connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding =
segments.
 
[SLI] While I think your arguments are not =
completely valid (see discussion below), this has nothing to do with the =
one draft vs two drafts discussion. As there is already a WG doc, I =
don’t see any reason for creating another one except creating =
artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.
 
  1. Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution =
without adding a strong value.
 
The document =
claims that “[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] =
… may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network =
not supporting this solution.”. While this is true, the proposed =
solution in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly =
the same caveat and requires all nodes in the network to support the =
solution.
 
Considering the =
following straight line network: A -B -C -D – E – F - G -H =
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support =
the extension to make the solution working, if one of the router =
doesn’t support the extension, traffic will be dropped. =

 
Then, there is no =
value compared to the timer-based solution of =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
 
Authors of =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G may have =
multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and the =
solution allows for F’ to support the extension while F may not =
support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’. Well yes, =
but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to support this =
extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’t =
think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically depending =
on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the network, =
but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrade all =
their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there. =

 
In addition, in =
term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the failed node =
which wasn’t initially on the path, could lead to traffic =
congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry =
this traffic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where =
traffic goes to this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then =
goes back over some part of the same path before reaching the =
destination.
 
So these protocol =
extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> Protocols extensions can =
accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding =
and solve the problem that traffic cannot be forwarded to a proxy =
forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol extension is =
necessary.
This solution does not require =
that all network nodes support this extension, take the example you have =
mentioned :
but it still requires that all =
routers upstream to F' support this extension ---> This description =
is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is node B, when node G =
fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the =
PF
node F' =
adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and D =
do not support this protocol extension, this is not =
affected.
 
 
[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in =
real networks is not theoretical. You cannot predict which router will =
converge first (routers may have different CPUs, may have different =
tasks to execute…). B may converge first maybe, but maybe it will =
be C or D… no one knows and it’s unpredictable. So at the =
end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to =
support the mechanism.
     &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE =
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is =
slower than node C and node D in the previous example, the convergence =
time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergence time of the =
SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not support the convergence, =
convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If all nodes in the =
network support the convergence, That would result in better convergence =
performance.
 
In addition, the Hold timers =
solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] =
does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow =
deletion is required for node faults. In addition, loop prevention is =
implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately direct =
traffic to a node that can perform proxy =
forwarding.
[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy =
forwarding can have serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages =
to traffic that has nothing to do with the failure. It’s the =
solution, but it has major drawbacks from an operational point of =
view.
   --------->[HZB] =
Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out =
the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, different =
remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to =
different PF nodes.
 
  1. Regarding BSID, I’m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as =
there may be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will =
create a lot of burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be =
discussed in LSR, not in SPRING (see next =
comment).
 
Note that =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work with =
BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the =
control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling =
is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The =
forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in =
details, we could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups =
without any perf degradation.
-------> Binding segments need to be =
exchanged only between neighbors and do not need to be flooded to the =
entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments do not exert pressure on =
IGP performance.The control-plane processing and forwarding-plane =
processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.
 
[SLI] Control plane aspects of =
IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING. So please take the =
discussion to LSR for the control plane and forwarding aspects could be =
further described in  [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-p=
rotection-sr-te-paths] if WGs =
agrees that BSID is interesting to solve.
   =
--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we =
need to divest some of it into the LSR.
 
 
SR-TE protection =
   
takes effect only from the time =
during a fault occurs to the TE path converges. Therefore, SR-TE =
protection does not take effect during normal forwarding,Compared with =
impaired connectivity, performance degradation is =
acceptable.
 
  1. The =
document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as it =
talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it’s a =
SPRING doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing =
beyond.
     &n=
bsp;         &nbs=
p;------->As you said, this document =
defines the detail requests for IGP protocols
[SLI] No it goes beyond =
requirements and already talks about encoding: 
&=
#8220;For supporting =
binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called
   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It =
contains a binding SID and a
   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV =
may be advertised in IS-IS Hello
   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped =
Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)
   [RFC7356].
 
This is not a requirement; this =
is an IS-IS solution description that has to be discussed in LSR not in =
SPRING.
--------->[HZB]Sure. =
We will consider whether =
we need to divest some of it into the LSR.
 
 
 
 
 
Brgds,
 
Stephane
 
 
From: spring =
<spring-bounces@ietf.org> =
On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.comSent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG =
<spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Dear =
WG,
 
This message =
starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/
 
After review =
of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the =
document to the mailing list.
 
Please also =
provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as this is a =
stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a =
vote.      
 
If you are =
willing to work on or review the document, please state this explicitly. =
This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people in the =
working group willing to work on the document.
 
Thanks!<=
o:p>
Bruno, Jim, =
Joel
_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent =
contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent =
donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies =
sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si =
ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may =
contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by =
law;
they should not be distributed, used or =
copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in =
error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its =
attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not =
liable for messages that have been modified, changed or =
falsified.
Thank you.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01D8142B.06FE0690--


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From: Shraddha Hegde 
To: Huzhibo , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG 
Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Huzhibo,


Pls see inline..



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Huzhibo 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:04 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRIN=
G WG 
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Shraddha,

Pls see inline for replies.


From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:20 PM
To: Huzhibo >; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; SPRING WG >
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding

Huzhibo,

Pls see inline for replies..



Juniper Business Use Only
From: Huzhibo >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:59 PM
To: Shraddha Hegde >; bru=
no.decraene@orange.com; SPRING WG >
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Hi Shraddha:

     Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

Thanks

Zhibo Hu


From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:15 PM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRING WG =
>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

WG,

I  don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt support the adoption of this document as a WG document.

I am in agreement with stephane=1B$B!G=1B(Bs comments on the list.


  1.  May cause congestion somewhere else in the network
There is already WG adopted document that is addressing the problem space
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.
This draft does not provide significant advantages over the proposed soluti=
ons in
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better s=
olution when all nodes
have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding in=
troduces protocol extensions
and the nodes that aren=1B$B!G=1B(Bt upgraded to understand the extensions =
will drop the traffic so there isn=1B$B!G=1B(Bt
any significant improvement in the approach.

In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding may
cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking since it proposes that =
 any neighbor that
claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the protected traffic.

For ex:

[cid:image001.jpg@01D8144D.30DC4950]

In above diagram
SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5
Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding
On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4
RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path
RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5

In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.

Operationally this solution is very complex to manage. A network that start=
s with no segment protection,
It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have not been upgraded but c=
ausing congestion
somewhere else would be difficult to debug.
------=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB] Traffic detour may exist in all local FRR mechanism=
s and is not unique to this solution, including TI-LFA.SR-TE Path protectio=
n etc=1B$B!$=1B(B
 The problem I am indicating is not traffic detour, it is about bandwid=
th double booking on interfaces.

              The solution described in [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protecti=
on-sr-te-paths] also has this problem.for example you have mentioned,
If using the solution of [ draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths=
], On failure of RT3, If the last calculated reachable path to RT3 is RT1->=
RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3,

RT1 maintains the path of RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3 for forwarding during the=
 Holdtimer period. Then, RT4 performs Proxy Forwarding and RT1->RT6->RT7->R=
T4->RT7->RT4->RT5. It also traverses the link 3 times from RT7 to RT4.
I think extending the protocol is a much simpler way than slow route deleti=
on and loop solving.

 This is incorrect example. Here the traffic is sent twice on RT7->RT4 =
interface twice even before the failure.
           This is problem with how SR-TE calculated the path and not a pro=
blem with procedures described in
            draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
------=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB2]  draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths =
mentioned=1B$B!'=1B(B
If the Node-SID or Prefix-SID becomes
   unreachable, the event and resulting forwarding changes should not
   communicated to the forwarding planes on all configured routers
   (including PLRs for the failed node) until the hold-timer expires.
   The traffic will continue to follow the previous path and get FRR
   protection on the PLR.
         On failure of RT3=1B$B!$=1B(BRT1 detects the Link RT3-RT2, Link RT=
3-RT6 and Link RT3-RT7 failure first. RT1`s  shorest Path to RT3 is RT1->RT=
6->RT7->RT4->RT3, And then RT1 detects the Link RT3-RT4 failure.  The Node-=
Sid of RT3 become unreachable.
         RT1 will keep the previous path RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3. Packets a=
re forwarded to RT4 for PLR, RT4 will send next segment RT7=1B$B!$=1B(BRT7 =
will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5.
The path described in this case is exactly the same as the forwarding path =
described in your example=1B$B!J=1B(BIn both cases, RT4 is selected as the =
PLR, and the results are the same.=1B$B!K=1B(B I don't know why you think o=
ne is 3 times and   the other is 2 times. So, for draft-ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths=1B$B!$=1B(BEven if all nodes support this draft, it=
 is possible that traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times. You actually gave a=
n example of reacting [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] di=
sadvantages.

 What you are describing in above text is a case when the link down eve=
nts are reaching RT1 in a particular
           Order and one particular link down event is reaching very late o=
n all the nodes on the path which is a corner case. There are already exist=
ing solutions such as spf-delay that can ensure most correlated events are =
clubbed together in one SPF. The local computations on RT1 can also be opti=
mized to detect node down events and the previous paths to hold down.
What you claim about fully upgraded network is not correct in this particul=
ar  example is not true.
When all the nodes are supporting context tables, RT6 will make sure to loo=
kup next label and send to RT7.

I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt see any strong justification how proxy forwarding is imp=
roving the situation of partially upgraded network
which it claims to be doing.





  1.  BSID solution
draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discus=
s the solution for BSIDs.
Most of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is =
assigned on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. S=
ection 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths discusses th=
is approach.
             draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  provides a p=
rotection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.

 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection problem when anycast soluti=
on is not in use, I would prefer the
              Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spring-segment-pr=
otection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely   different s=
olution based on proxy forwarding which has other implications described in=
 point 1.
------=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB]I don`t think that most of the BSID deployments use =
anycast based solution=1B$B!$=1B(BStrict path control is required in most s=
cenarios, and anycast is not introduced.
                 If Bsid is not addressed, it will not be a complete protec=
tion solution.

Rgds
Shraddha



Juniper Business Use Only
From: spring spring-bounces@ietf.org On Beh=
alf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

[External Email. Be cautious of content]

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.



This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;

they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.

If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-2022-jp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Huzhibo,<=
o:p>


&nbs=
p;


&nbs=
p;


Pls see i=
nline..


&nbs=
p;


 =




Juniper Business Use Only






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo=3D40huawei.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org> 

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:04 PM

To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


<=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]


=
 




Shraddha,=



&nbs=
p;


Pls see i=
nline for replies.


=
 


=
 






From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.i=
etf.org]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:20 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei=
.com>; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


Huzhibo,<=
o:p>


&nbs=
p;


Pls see i=
nline for replies..


&nbs=
p;


 =




Juniper Business Use Only






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g=
t;


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:59 PM

To: Shraddha Hegde <shrad=
dha@juniper.net>;
bruno.decraene@orange.com;=
 SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


<=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",sans-serif;colo=
r:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]


=
 




Hi Sh=
raddha:


 


   &nbs=
p; 
Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.


 


Thank=
s


 


Zhibo=
 Hu


=
 


=
 






From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:15 PM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.or=
g>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


WG,


 


I  don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt support the adoption of thi=
s document as a WG document.


 


I am in agreement with stephane=1B$B!G=1B(Bs comment=
s on the list.


 


    

  1. May cause congestion somewhere else in the network
    2. <=
/ol>

    There is already WG adopted document that is address=
ing the problem space
    

    draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 
    

    This draft does not provide significant advantages o=
ver the proposed solutions in

    

    draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 
    

    draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding cla=
ims to provide better solution when all nodes
    

    have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-rout=
ing-proxy-forwarding introduces protocol extensions
    

    and the nodes that aren=1B$B!G=1B(Bt upgraded to und=
erstand the extensions will drop the traffic so there isn=1B$B!G=1B(Bt=

    

    any significant improvement in the approach. 
    

     
    

    In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-s=
egment-routing-proxy-forwarding may

    

    cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking =
since it proposes that  any neighbor that
    

    claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the =
protected traffic.
    

     
    

    For ex:
    

     
    

    

     
    

    In above diagram 
    

    SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5 
    

    Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding
    

    On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via=
 RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4
    

    RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path=

    

    RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5
    

     
    

    In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7-=
>RT4 link 3 times.
    

     
    

    Operationally this solution is very complex to manag=
e. A network that starts with no segment protection,
    

    It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have =
not been upgraded but causing congestion

    

    somewhere else would be difficult to debug.
    

    -----=
-=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB]
Traffic detour may exist in =
all local FRR mechanisms and is not unique to this solution, including TI-L=
FA.SR-TE Path protection etc=1B$B!$=1B(B
    

    <SH> The problem I am indicating is not traffi=
c detour, it is about bandwidth double booking on interfaces.

            &nbs=
p;  
    

     =
;             T=
he solution described in [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]=
 also has this problem.for example you have mentioned,

    If us=
ing the solution of [ draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths],
On failure of RT3, If the la=
st calculated reachable path to RT3 is RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3,=

    

     
    

    RT1 m=
aintains the path of RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3 for forwarding dur=
ing the Holdtimer period. Then, RT4 performs Proxy Forwarding and RT1->R=
T6->RT7->RT4->RT7->RT4->RT5. It also traverses the
 link 3 times from RT7 to RT4.
    

    I thi=
nk extending the protocol is a much simpler way than slow route deletion an=
d loop solving.
    

     
    

    <SH> This is incorrect example. Here the traff=
ic is sent twice on RT7->RT4 interface twice even before the failure.
    

            &nbs=
p;  This is problem with how SR-TE calculated the path and not a probl=
em with procedures described in

    

     =
;           draft-ie=
tf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
    

    -----=
-=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB2]  draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
 mentioned=1B$B!'=1B(B
    

    

    
If the Node-SID or Prefix-SID becomes
    

    
   unreachable, the event and resulting forwarding =
changes should not
    

    
   communicated to the forwarding planes on all con=
figured routers
    

    
   (including PLRs for the failed node) until the h=
old-timer expires.
    

    
   The traffic will continue to follow the previous=
 path and get FRR
    

    
   protection on the PLR.
    

    

     =
;        On failure of RT3=1B$B!$=1B(BRT1 detects
 the Link RT3-RT2, Link RT3-RT6 and Link RT3-RT7 failure first. RT1`s  shorest Path to RT3 is
RT1->RT6->RT7-&=
gt;RT4->RT3, And then RT1
de=
tects the Link RT3-RT4 failure.
 The Node-Sid of=
 RT3 become unreachable.
    

     =
;        RT1 will keep the previous path=
 RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3. Packets are forwarded to RT4 for PLR,=
 RT4 will send next segment RT7=1B$B!$=1B(BRT7
 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5.
    

    The path described in this ca=
se is exactly the same as the forwarding path described in your example=1B$B!J=1B(BIn both cases, RT4 is selected
 as the PLR, and the results are the same.=1B$B!K=1B(B=
 I don't know why you think one is 3 times and   the other=
 is 2 times.

So, for draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths=1B$B!$=1B(BEven if all nodes support this draft, it is possible t=
hat traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.

You actually gave an example of reacting [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protect=
ion-sr-te-paths] disadvantages.
    

     
    

    <SH> What you are describing in above text is =
a case when the link down events are reaching RT1 in a particular
    

            &nbs=
p;  Order and one particular link down event is reaching very late on =
all the nodes on the path which is a corner case. There are already existin=
g solutions such as spf-delay that can ensure most correlated events are cl=
ubbed together
 in one SPF. The local computations on RT1 can also be optimized to detect =
node down events and the previous paths to hold down.

    

    What you claim about fully upgraded network is not c=
orrect in this particular  example is not true.
    

    When all the nodes are supporting context tables, RT=
6 will make sure to lookup next label and send to RT7.

    

     
    

    I don=1B$B!G=1B(Bt see any strong justification how =
proxy forwarding is improving the situation of partially upgraded network
    

    which it claims to be doing.
    

     
    

     
    

     =
;       
    

    =
 
    

      

    1. BSID solution
    

    draft-ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discuss the solution for BSIDs.=

    

    Most of the BSID deployme=
nts use anycast based solution where same BSID is assigned on anycast nodes=
 and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. Section 2.2 in draft-ietf-=
spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
 discusses this approach.
    

            &nbs=
p;    draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  =
;provides a protection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.<=
/o:p>
    

            &nbs=
p;   
    

     If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection=
 problem when anycast solution is not in use, I would prefer the=

    

            &nbs=
p;     Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spri=
ng-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely&=
nbsp;  different solution based on proxy forwarding which has other im=
plications described in point 1.
    

    ------=1B$B!U=1B(B[HZB]I don`t think that
most of the BSID deployments use anyca=
st based solution=1B$B!$=1B(BStrict path c=
ontrol is required in most scenarios, and anycast is
 not introduced. 

               &n=
bsp;     If Bsid is not addressed, it will not be =
a complete protection solution.
    

     
    

    Rgds
    

    Shraddha
    

     
    

     
    

    
Juniper Business Use Only
    

    

    

    From: spring 
spring-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
    
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM
    
To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>
    
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding
    

    

    

     
    

    <=
span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Lato",san=
s-serif;color:black">[External Email. Be cautious of content]
    

     
    

    

    Dear WG,
    

     
    

    This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending=
 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
    

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-for=
warding/
    

     
    

    After review of the document please indicate support =
(or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list.
    

     
    

    Please also provide comments/reasons for your support=
 (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support=
 as this is not a vote.

    

     
    

    If you are willing to work on or review the document,=
 please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the e=
nergy level of people in the working group willing
 to work on the document.
    

     
    

    Thanks!
    

    Bruno, Jim, Joel
    

    ________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________=

    

     
    

    Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informatio=
ns confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

    pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vou=
s avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

    a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

    Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
    

     
    

    This message and its attachments may contain confidential or pri=
vileged information that may be protected by law;
    

    they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisa=
tion.
    

    If you have received this email in error, please notify the send=
er and delete this message and its attachments.
    

    As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that=
 have been modified, changed or falsified.
    

    Thank you.
    

    









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=0A=0A
This document provides a comprehensive=
 SR-TE node failure protection solution.
I think it is useful for SR network reliability.
=0A
B.R.
Lijie Deng

=0A
=CD=F8=C2=E7=BC=BC=CA=F5=D1=D0=BE=BF=CB=F9-=B5=CB=C0=F6=BD=
=E0
18922187259
denglj4@chinatelecom.cn
=0A
 
Date: 2022-01-13 18:19
Su=
bject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routin=
g-proxy-forwarding
=0A=0A
=0A
Dear WG,
=0A
 
=0A
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, endi=
ng 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
=0A
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-ro=
uting-proxy-forwarding/
=0A
 
=0A
After review of=
 the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the docu=
ment to the mailing list.
=0A
<=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial"=
;,sans-serif;mso-ansi-language:EN-US"> 
=0A
Please also provi=
de comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as this is a strong=
er way to indicate your (non) support as this=0A is not a vote.      
=0A
 
=0A
If you are willing to work on or review the document, ple=
ase state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the ener=
gy level=0A of people in the working group willing to work on the document=
.
=0A
 <=
/p>=0A
Thanks!<=
o:p>
=0A
Bruno, Jim, Joel=

=0A
=0A
______________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________________________=
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=0A
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From: 
To: "'Huzhibo'" , , "'SPRING WG'" 
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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi

 

[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected traffic be
directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced on all
different neighbor nodes.

 

[SLI3] Again, purely theoretical, it depends on the network topology, where
is the traffic coming from and number of neighbor nodes supporting the PF
behavior.  Traffic will follow SPT to the closest PF node: there could be
ECMP or not, the path to PF node could be well-sized or not. 

 

 

From: Huzhibo  
Sent: vendredi 28 janvier 2022 02:56
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG'

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

 

 

From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
[mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 1:41 AM
To: Huzhibo  >;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the
previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than
the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If
all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result in
better convergence performance.

 

[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the head
end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechanism,
it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR
working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you are
mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: networks
are never converging in 50ms). 

---------->[HZB2]As the example you have mentioned,  Packet loss occurs only
when C converges, but B does not converge. 

                The packet loss time depends on the IGP convergence time and
is much shorter than the SR-TE rerouting time. 

                What I want to say is that even if some nodes you mentioned
do not support proxy forwarding, this solution is useful for speeding up
convergence.

 

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

 

--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point,
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to
different PF nodes.

 

[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FRR
shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that can
fit traffic. (See RFC7916).

So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any
control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates
congestion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow on,
you'll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not initially
flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to customers).
Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic. 

---------->[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected
traffic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced on
all different neighbor nodes.

Second: All local FRR mechanisms take effect before convergence. In this
case, other nodes on the network still route to the faulty node. Can you
give an example?. FRR is performed when traffic does not need to be routed
to the neighboring node of the faulty node.

 

Stephane

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Huzhibo  > 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

 

From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
[mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo  >;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

From: Huzhibo  > 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi slitkows :

 

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

 

Thanks

 

Zhibo Hu

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING
WG'  >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi 

 

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

 

1.	The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this
problem, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions
for the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create
deployment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.

-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local
behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection.
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node
protection. 

 

It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution
solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding
segments.

 

[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion
below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion.
As there is already a WG doc, I don't see any reason for creating another
one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.

 

2.	Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without
adding a strong value.

 

The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] .
may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not
supporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat
and requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.

 

Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the
extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't support
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 

 

Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]

 

Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G
may have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution
allows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the
solution will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all
routers upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path
to F'. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work
tactically depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion
of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to
upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is
there. 

 

In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the
failed node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic
congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this
traffic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes
to this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some
part of the same path before reaching the destination.

 

So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.

---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that
can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol
extension is necessary.

This solution does not require that all network nodes support this
extension, take the example you have mentioned :

but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extension
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is
node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the
PF

node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C
and D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.

 

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the
previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than
the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If
all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result in
better convergence performance.

 

In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols,
but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required for node faults.
In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy
forwarding.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point,
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to
different PF nodes.

 

3.	Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may
be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of
burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING (see next comment).

 

Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the
control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is
orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding
operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not
expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.

-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do
not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing and
forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.

 

[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and
forwarding aspects could be further described in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is
interesting to solve.

   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of
it into the LSR.

 

 

SR-TE protection    

takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal
forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is
acceptable.

 

4.	The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as
it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.

                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail
requests for IGP protocols

[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding: 

"For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called

   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a

   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello

   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)

   [RFC7356].

 

This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to
be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.

--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it
into the LSR.

 

 

 

 

 

Brgds,

 

Stephane

 

 

From: spring  > On
Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com  
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG  >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa
rding/

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.


 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________
 
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Hi
 
[HZB2=
]First: This document does not require that all affected traffic be =
directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced =
on all different neighbor nodes.
=
 
[SLI3] Again, purely =
theoretical, it depends on the network topology, where is the traffic =
coming from and number of neighbor nodes supporting the PF behavior. =
 Traffic will follow SPT to the closest PF node: there could be =
ECMP or not, the path to PF node could be well-sized or not. =

 
 
From: Huzhibo =
<huzhibo@huawei.com> 
Sent: vendredi 28 janvier 2022 =
02:56
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG =
adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
=
 
=
 
From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 1:41 AM
To: =
Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
[SLI] Your =
statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not =
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first =
(routers may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to =
execute…). B may converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or =
D… no one knows and it’s unpredictable. So at the end, if =
you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to support =
the mechanism.
 &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster =
than SR-TE rerouting, Therefo=
re, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous =
example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the =
convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not =
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. =
If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result =
in better convergence performance.
&n=
bsp;
[SLI2]o=
f course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the head =
end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your =
mechanism, it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. =
To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension =
(seems you are mixing convergence and protection which are two different =
things: networks are never converging in 50ms). 
-----=
----->[HZB2]As the example you have mentioned,  Packet loss =
occurs only when C converges, but B does not converge. =

 =
;            =
   The packet loss time depends on the IGP convergence =
time and is much shorter than the SR-TE rerouting time. =

 =
;            =
   What I want to say is that even if some nodes you =
mentioned do not support proxy forwarding, this solution is useful for =
speeding up convergence.
=
 
[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and =
at the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the =
failure. It’s the solution, but it has major drawbacks from an =
operational point of view.
 
-----=
---->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only =
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, =
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance =
traffic to different PF nodes.
=
 
[SLI2=
] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has =
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of =
FRR shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path =
that can fit traffic. (See RFC7916).
So, =
letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any =
control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates =
congestion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow =
on, you’ll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not =
initially flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain =
to customers). Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic. =

-----=
----->[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected =
traffic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is =
still balanced on all different neighbor nodes.
Secon=
d: All local FRR mechanisms take effect before convergence. In this =
case, other nodes on the network still route to the faulty node. Can you =
give an example?. FRR is performed when traffic does not need to be =
routed to the neighboring node of the faulty =
node.
=
 
Steph=
ane
=
 
=
 
 
=
 
=
 
 
 
From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> =

Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
Please find more =
inline.
=
 
=
 
From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: =
Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
Please find more =
inline.
 
From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> =

Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi =
slitkows =
:
=
 
Thank=
s for your comments, Please see inline.
=
 
Thank=
s
=
 
Zhibo=
 Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi 
 
I’m =
NOT supporting this draft for the following =
reasons:
 
  1. The WG already =
have a WG document which is dealing with this problem, I don’t =
think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for the same =
solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create deployment =
issues as different vendors may pick different =
solutions.
-----> =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behaviors =
to implement SR-TE node protection. =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node =
protection. 
 =

It optimiz=
ed the number of entries in the Context Table. This =
solution solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and =
protects binding segments.
 
[SLI] While =
I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion below), =
this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion. As =
there is already a WG doc, I don’t see any reason for creating =
another one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing =
readers.
 
  1. Adding protocols extensions adds =
complexity in the solution without adding a strong =
value.
 
The document claims that =
“[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] … may not =
work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not supporting =
this solution.”. While this is true, the proposed solution in =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same =
caveat and requires all nodes in the network to support the =
solution.
 
Considering the following straight =
line network: A -B -C -D – E – F - G -H and an SR policy =
from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the extension to =
make the solution working, if one of the router doesn’t support =
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 
 
Then, there is no value compared to =
the timer-based solution of =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
 
Authors of =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G may have =
multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and the =
solution allows for F’ to support the extension while F may not =
support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’. Well yes, =
but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to support this =
extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’t =
think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically depending =
on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the network, =
but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrade all =
their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there. =

 
In addition, in term of traffic, =
forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the failed node which wasn’t =
initially on the path, could lead to traffic congestion or high traffic =
peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traffic. We could =
easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this =
non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some =
part of the same path before reaching the =
destination.
 
So these protocol extensions are =
bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> =
Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that can =
perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be =
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This =
protocol extension is necessary.
This =
solution does not require that all network nodes support this extension, =
take the example you have mentioned :
but it =
still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extension =
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous =
segment is node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the =
node B finds the PF
node =
F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and =
D do not support this protocol extension, this is not =
affected.
 
 
[SLI] Your statement is purely =
theoretical and life in real networks is not theoretical. You cannot =
predict which router will converge first (routers may have different =
CPUs, may have different tasks to execute…). B may converge first =
maybe, but maybe it will be C or D… no one knows and it’s =
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to =
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.
 =
;            =
       --------->[HZB]IGP convergence =
is much faster than SR-TE rerouting, There=
fore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous =
example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the =
convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not =
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. =
If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result =
in better convergence performance.
 
In =
addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend =
protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required =
for node faults. In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent =
loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can =
perform proxy forwarding.
[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and =
at the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the =
failure. It’s the solution, but it has major drawbacks from an =
operational point of view.
 =
;  --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this =
document only filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same =
fault point, different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load =
balance traffic to different PF nodes.
 
  1. Regarding BSID, I’m not fan =
of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds or thousands of =
BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden in IGP. The =
proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING (see next =
comment).
 
Note =
that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in =
the control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID =
handling is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. =
The forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in =
details, we could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups =
without any perf degradation.
-------> =
Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do not =
need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments =
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing =
and forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly =
coupled.
 
[SLI] =
Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in =
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and =
forwarding aspects could be further described in  =
;[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that =
BSID is interesting to solve.
 =
;  --------->[HZB]Sure. We =
will consider whether we need to divest some of it into the =
LSR.
 
 
SR-TE =
protection    
takes =
effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path =
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during =
normal forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance =
degradation is acceptable.
=
 
  1. The document is currently a bit =
borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good details about IGP =
protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it should detail reqs =
for protocols but nothing beyond.
 =
;          &=
nbsp;    ------->As you =
said, this document defines the detail requests for IGP =
protocols=

[SLI] No it goes beyond =
requirements and already talks about encoding: =

“For supporting binding SID =
proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called
   Binding =
Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and =
a
   list of =
segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS =
Hello
   (IIH) PDUs, =
LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs =
(CS-LSP)
   =
[RFC7356].
 
This is not =
a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to be =
discussed in LSR not in SPRING.
-----=
---->[HZB]Sure. =
We =
will consider whether we need to divest some of it into the =
LSR.
 
 
=
 
 
 
Brgds,
 
Stephane
 
 
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> =
On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.comSent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG =
<spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Dear WG,
 
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending =
27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/
 
After review of the document please indicate support (or =
not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing =
list.
 
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or =
lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support =
as this is not a vote.      =

 
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please =
state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy =
level of people in the working group willing to work on the =
document.
 
Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel
________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________________________=
________
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes =
peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne =
doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies =
sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si =
ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may =
contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by =
law;
they should not be distributed, used or =
copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in =
error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its =
attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not =
liable for messages that have been modified, changed or =
falsified.
Thank =
you.

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01D8142D.91BCE830--


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<SH> What you are describ=
ing in above text is a case when the link down events are reaching RT1 in a=
 particular


     &=
nbsp;     Order and one particular link down event is r=
eaching very late on all the nodes on the path which is a corner case. Ther=
e are already existing solutions such as spf-delay that can ensure most cor=
related events
 are clubbed together in one SPF. The local computations on RT1 can also be=
 optimized to detect node down events and the previous paths to hold down.



What you claim about fully upgr=
aded network is not correct in this particular  example is not true.


When all the nodes are supporti=
ng context tables, RT6 will make sure to lookup next label and send to RT7.



------=A1=B7[HZB]No,RT6 won`t,
draft-=
ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths mentioned:





During network convergence, the micro-loop avoidance mechansi=
ms as



   described in [I-D.bashandy-rtgwg-segment-routing=
-uloop] may be



   applied.For the failed node, all the nodes in th=
e network should



   consistently detect the failure and maintain the=
 pre-failure shortest



   path in the forwarding plane so that the traffic=
 can follow pre-



   failure shortest path and take the node-protecti=
ng backup path at the




RT1 will converge to the avoidance-microloop path and needs to en=
capsulate the avoidance-microloop segment list. Therefore, even if RT6 supp=
orts SR-TE node protection, RT6 won't
 look up next label.


 


I don=A1=AFt see any strong jus=
tification how proxy forwarding is improving the situation of partially upg=
raded network


which it claims to be doing.


------=A1=B7[HZB]
When t=
he network is upgraded, you can use commands to control the advertisement o=
f PF capabilities. When the network is stable, you can advertise PF capabil=
ities of nodes on the entire network.



           =
;   Controls like this are common during network upgrades.


 


 








From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 4:41 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; S=
PRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


Huzhibo,


 


 


Pls see inline..


 


&nbs=
p;



Juniper Business=
 Use Only






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:04 PM

To: Shraddha Hegde <shrad=
dha@juniper.net>;
bruno.decraene@orange.com;=
 SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


<=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Lato;color:black"=
>[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Shraddha,


 


Pls see inline for replies.


 


 






From: Shraddha Hegde [mailto:shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:20 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei=
.com>; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


Huzhibo,


 


Pls see inline for replies..


 


&nbs=
p;



Juniper Business=
 Use Only






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:59 PM

To: Shraddha Hegde <shrad=
dha@juniper.net>;
bruno.decraene@orange.com;=
 SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding






 


<=
span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Lato;color:black"=
>[External Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Hi Shraddha:


 


&=
nbsp;    Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.


 


Thanks


 


Zhibo Hu


 


 






From: spring [mailto:sprin=
g-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Shraddha Hegde

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:15 PM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.or=
g>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


WG,


 


I  don=A1=AFt support the =
adoption of this document as a WG document.


 


I am in agreement with stephane=
=A1=AFs comments on the list.


 =




1.  &nbs=
p;   
May cause conges=
tion somewhere else in the network


There is already WG adopted doc=
ument that is addressing the problem space


draft-ietf-spring-segment-prote=
ction-sr-te-paths.



This draft does not provide sig=
nificant advantages over the proposed solutions in



draft-ietf-spring-segment-prote=
ction-sr-te-paths.



draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better solution when all nodes


have not been upgraded. draft-h=
u-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding introduces protocol extensions


and the nodes that aren=A1=AFt =
upgraded to understand the extensions will drop the traffic so there isn=A1=
=AFt


any significant improvement in =
the approach.



 


In fact, the approach described=
 in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding may



cause other issues such as band=
width double booking since it proposes that  any neighbor that


claims proxy forwarding will be=
 used to forward the protected traffic.


 


For ex:


 




 


In above diagram 


SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->R=
T7->RT5 


Only RT4 supports proxy-forward=
ing


On failure of RT3, RT1 would se=
nd traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4


RT4 will then send to RT7 as pe=
r the SR-TE path


RT7 will then send to RT5 via R=
T7->RT4->RT5


 


In this example, same traffic i=
s traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.


 


Operationally this solution is =
very complex to manage. A network that starts with no segment protection,


It may be ok to drop the traffi=
c if some nodes have not been upgraded but causing congestion



somewhere else would be difficu=
lt to debug.


------=A1=B7[HZB]
Traffi=
c detour may exist in all local FRR mechanisms and is not unique to this so=
lution, including TI-LFA.SR-TE Path protection etc=A3=AC


<SH> The problem I am ind=
icating is not traffic detour, it is about bandwidth double booking on inte=
rfaces.


     &=
nbsp;     


           =
;   The solution described in [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protecti=
on-sr-te-paths] also has this problem.for example you have mentioned,<=
/o:p>


If using the solution of [ draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-s=
r-te-paths],
On fai=
lure of RT3, If the last calculated reachable path to RT3 is RT1->RT6-&g=
t;RT7->RT4->RT3,


 


RT1 maintains the path of RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3 for=
 forwarding during the Holdtimer period. Then, RT4 performs Proxy Forwardin=
g and RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT7->RT4->RT5. It also traverse=
s
 the link 3 times from RT7 to RT4.


I think extending the protocol is a much simpler way than slow ro=
ute deletion and loop solving.


 


<SH> This is incorrect ex=
ample. Here the traffic is sent twice on RT7->RT4 interface twice even b=
efore the failure.


     &=
nbsp;     This is problem with how SR-TE calculated the=
 path and not a problem with procedures described in



           =
; draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths

------=A1=B7[HZB2]  draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-=
te-paths
 mentioned=A3=BA





If the Node-SID or Prefix-SID becomes



   unreachable, the event and resulting forwarding =
changes should not



   communicated to the forwarding planes on all con=
figured routers



   (including PLRs for the failed node) until the h=
old-timer expires.



   The traffic will continue to follow the previous=
 path and get FRR



   protection on the PLR.




         On failure =
of RT3=A3=ACRT1 detects the Link RT3-RT2, Link RT3=
-RT6 and Link RT3-RT7 failure
 first. RT1`s  shorest Path to RT3 is
RT1-&g=
t;RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3, And then RT1
detects the Link RT3-RT4 failure.
 =
The Node-Sid of RT3 become unreachable.


         RT1 will keep th=
e previous path RT1->RT6->RT7->RT4->RT3. Packets are forwarded =
to RT4 for PLR, RT4 will send next segment RT7=A3=ACRT7
 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5.

The p=
ath described in this case is exactly the same as the forwarding path descr=
ibed in your example=A3=A8In
 both cases, RT4 is selected as the PLR, and the results are the same.=A3=A9 I don't know why you think one is 3 times and=
   the other is 2 times.
So, for draft-ietf-sp=
ring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths=
=A3=ACEven
 if all nodes support this draft, it is possible that traversing the RT7-&g=
t;RT4 link 3 times.
You actually gave an =
example of reacting [draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] disa=
dvantages.


 


<SH> What you are describ=
ing in above text is a case when the link down events are reaching RT1 in a=
 particular


     &=
nbsp;     Order and one particular link down event is r=
eaching very late on all the nodes on the path which is a corner case. Ther=
e are already existing solutions such as spf-delay that can ensure most cor=
related events
 are clubbed together in one SPF. The local computations on RT1 can also be=
 optimized to detect node down events and the previous paths to hold down.



What you claim about fully upgr=
aded network is not correct in this particular  example is not true.


When all the nodes are supporti=
ng context tables, RT6 will make sure to lookup next label and send to RT7.



 


I don=A1=AFt see any strong jus=
tification how proxy forwarding is improving the situation of partially upg=
raded network


which it claims to be doing.


 


 


        


 



2.  &nbs=
p;   
BSID solution


dr=
aft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discuss =
the solution for BSIDs.


Mo=
st of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is as=
signed on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. Sec=
tion 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths
 discusses this approach.


     &=
nbsp;       draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-p=
roxy-forwarding  provides a protection solution for BSIDs when anycast=
 is not in use.


     &=
nbsp;      


 If WG is inclined to solv=
e the BSID protection problem when anycast solution is not in use, I would =
prefer the


     &=
nbsp;        Approach to be more aligned=
 with draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. I do not support In=
troducing completely   different solution based on proxy forwardi=
ng which has other implications described
 in point 1.


------=A1=B7[HZB]I don`t
 think that most of the=
 BSID deployments use anycast based solution=A3=ACStrict path control is required in most scenarios,
 and anycast is not introduced. 



         =
;        If Bsid is not addressed, =
it will not be a complete protection solution.


 


Rgds


Shraddha


 


 



Juniper Business=
 Use Only






From: spring
spring-bounces@ietf.org O=
n Behalf Of
bruno.decraene@orange.com<=
/a>

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


<=
span lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Lato;color:black">[E=
xternal Email. Be cautious of content]


 




Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segm=
ent-routing-proxy-forwarding/<=
/span>


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________=



 


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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


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From: Huzhibo 
To: "slitkows.ietf@gmail.com" , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG' 
Thread-Topic: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Please see inline.

From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 4:58 PM
To: Huzhibo ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi

[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected traffic be di=
rected to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced on all differe=
nt neighbor nodes.

[SLI3] Again, purely theoretical, it depends on the network topology, where=
 is the traffic coming from and number of neighbor nodes supporting the PF =
behavior.  Traffic will follow SPT to the closest PF node: there could be E=
CMP or not, the path to PF node could be well-sized or not.

[HZB3]Sure,    I mean the same is true with other local FRR technologies, e=
ven with IGP, and IGP shortest path can't guarantee that traffic will not c=
onverge at certain node.

From: Huzhibo >
Sent: vendredi 28 janvier 2022 02:56
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitk=
ows.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 1:41 AM
To: Huzhibo >; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi,

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute...). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D... no one knows and it's unp=
redictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, =
all routers have to support the mechanism.
                  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE =
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in th=
e previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter t=
han the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do=
 not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenario=
s. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result i=
n better convergence performance.

[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the hea=
d end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechani=
sm, it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR=
 working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you ar=
e mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: network=
s are never converging in 50ms).
---------->[HZB2]As the example you have mentioned,  Packet loss occurs onl=
y when C converges, but B does not converge.
                The packet loss time depends on the IGP convergence time an=
d is much shorter than the SR-TE rerouting time.
                What I want to say is that even if some nodes you mentioned=
 do not support proxy forwarding, this solution is useful for speeding up c=
onvergence.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major drawback=
s from an operational point of view.

--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only f=
ilters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, diff=
erent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to di=
fferent PF nodes.

[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has =
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FR=
R shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that ca=
n fit traffic. (See RFC7916).
So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any co=
ntrol is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates conges=
tion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow on, you'l=
l start to impact and drop other traffic which was not initially flowing th=
rough the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to customers). Keeping =
control of FRR path is a very important topic.
---------->[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected tr=
affic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced on =
all different neighbor nodes.
Second: All local FRR mechanisms take effect before convergence. In this ca=
se, other nodes on the network still route to the faulty node. Can you give=
 an example?. FRR is performed when traffic does not need to be routed to t=
he neighboring node of the faulty node.

Stephane







From: Huzhibo >
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi,

Please find more inline.


From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitk=
ows.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo >; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi,

Please find more inline.

From: Huzhibo >
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi slitkows :

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

Thanks

Zhibo Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gm=
ail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG=
' >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding

Hi

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

1)      The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this proble=
m, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for =
the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create depl=
oyment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.
-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behav=
iors to implement SR-TE node protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node protection.

It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution solv=
es the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding seg=
ments.

[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion=
 below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion=
. As there is already a WG doc, I don't see any reason for creating another=
 one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.


2)      Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without=
 adding a strong value.



The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] =
... may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not su=
pporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in draf=
t-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat an=
d requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.



Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H =
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support th=
e extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't supp=
ort the extension, traffic will be dropped.



Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.ietf-s=
pring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]



Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G m=
ay have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution all=
ows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the solutio=
n will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all router=
s upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path to F'=
. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tacticall=
y depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the =
network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgra=
de all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there.



In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the fa=
iled node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic congest=
ion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traffi=
c. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to th=
is non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some par=
t of the same path before reaching the destination.



So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node tha=
t can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be=
 forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol =
extension is necessary.
This solution does not require that all network nodes support this extensio=
n, take the example you have mentioned :
but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extensio=
n ---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment i=
s node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds th=
e PF
node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C a=
nd D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.


[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute...). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D... no one knows and it's unp=
redictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, =
all routers have to support the mechanism.
                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-T=
E rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in =
the previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter=
 than the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network =
do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenar=
ios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result=
 in better convergence performance.

In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In=
 addition, slow deletion is required for node faults. In addition, loop pre=
vention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately dire=
ct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding.
[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major drawback=
s from an operational point of view.
   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document onl=
y filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, d=
ifferent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to=
 different PF nodes.

3)      Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there ma=
y be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot =
of burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in=
 SPRING (see next comment).


Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the c=
ontrol-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is o=
rthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding ope=
rations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not ex=
pect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.
-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and d=
o not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segme=
nts do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing a=
nd forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.

[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPR=
ING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and forward=
ing aspects could be further described in  [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protect=
ion-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is interesting to solve.
   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of =
it into the LSR.


SR-TE protection
takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path conver=
ges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal forward=
ing,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is accepta=
ble.

4)      The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR a=
s it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING =
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.
                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail reque=
sts for IGP protocols
[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding:

"For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called
   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a
   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello
   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)
   [RFC7356].

This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has t=
o be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.
--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it =
into the LSR.





Brgds,

Stephane


From: spring > On B=
ehalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding

Dear WG,

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.

Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
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Please see inline.


 








From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 4:58 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; '=
SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi


 


[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected tra=
ffic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still bal=
anced on all different neighbor nodes.


 


[SLI3] Again, purely theoretica=
l, it depends on the network topology, where is the traffic coming from and=
 number of neighbor nodes supporting the PF behavior.  Traffic will fo=
llow SPT to the closest PF node: there could
 be ECMP or not, the path to PF node could be well-sized or not. 


 


[HZB3]Sure,    I mean the same is true with other =
local FRR technologies, even with IGP, and IGP shortest path can't guarante=
e that traffic will not converge at certain node.


 






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawe=
i.com>


Sent: vendredi 28 janvier 2022 02:56

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


 


 






From: 
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mai=
lto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 1:41 AM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei=
.com>; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi,


 


[SLI] Your statement is purely =
theoretical and life in real networks is not theoretical. You cannot predic=
t which router will converge first (routers may have different CPUs, may ha=
ve different tasks to execute…). B may
 converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D… no one knows and =
it’s unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mecha=
nism to work, all routers have to support the mechanism.<=
/p>

           &=
nbsp;      --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is mu=
ch faster than SR-TE rerouting,
Therefor=
e, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous example,=
 the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergence=
 time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes
 in the network do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 m=
s in some scenarios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, T=
hat would result in better convergence performance.


 


[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about=
 the head end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support=
 your mechanism, it will drop traffic and your
 FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR working, no choice, all the node=
s must support the extension (seems you are mixing convergence and protecti=
on which are two different things: networks are never converging in 50ms).



---------->[HZB2]As the example you have mentioned,  Pack=
et loss occurs only when C converges, but B does not converge.
<=
/o:p>


           =
;     The packet loss time depends on the IGP conv=
ergence time and is much shorter than the SR-TE rerouting time.
<=
/o:p>


           =
;     What I want to say is that even if some node=
s you mentioned do not support proxy forwarding, this solution is useful fo=
r speeding up convergence.


 


[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and at=
 the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the failure. =
It’s the solution, but it has major
 drawbacks from an operational point of view.


 


--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this do=
cument only filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same faul=
t point, different remote nodes select different
 PF nodes and load balance traffic to different PF nodes.=



 


[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path=
 that has been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). His=
tory of FRR shown that this is important
 to constraint/steer FRR path on path that can fit traffic. (See RFC7916).<=
o:p>


So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node with=
out any control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic crea=
tes congestion on some links the protected
 traffic was not intended to flow on, you’ll start to impact and drop=
 other traffic which was not initially flowing through the failed link/node=
 (usually hard to explain to customers). Keeping control of FRR path is a v=
ery important topic.



---------->[HZB2]First: This document does not require that al=
l affected traffic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffi=
c is still balanced on all different neighbor nodes.


Second: All local FRR mechanisms tak=
e effect before convergence. In this case, other nodes on the network still=
 route to the faulty node. Can you give
 an example?. FRR is performed when traffic does not need to be routed to t=
he neighboring node of the faulty node.


 


Stephane


 


 


 


 


 


 


 






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawe=
i.com>


Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi,


 


Please find more inline.


 


 






From: 
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mai=
lto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com]


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei=
.com>; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi,


 


Please find more inline.


 






From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawe=
i.com>


Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi
slitkows :


 


Thanks for your comments, Please se=
e inline.


 


Thanks


 


Zhibo Hu






From: spring [mailto:sprin=
g-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of slitkows.iet=
f@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.=
org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 


Hi 


 


I’m NOT supporting this d=
raft for the following reasons:


 



1)     
The WG already have a W=
G document which is dealing with this problem, I don’t think that WG =
should come with multiple documents/solutions for the same solution space a=
s it may just confuse the industry and create
 deployment issues as different vendors may pic=
k different solutions.


-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defi=
nes local behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection.
 draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node prote=
ction.



&nbs=
p;


It
optimize=
d the number of entries in the Context Table.
This sol=
ution solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects b=
inding segments.


 


[SLI] While I think your argume=
nts are not completely valid (see discussion below), this has nothing to do=
 with the one draft vs two drafts discussion. As there is already a WG doc,=
 I don’t see any reason for creating
 another one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing rea=
ders.


 =




2=
)   &=
nbsp; 
Adding protocols extens=
ions adds complexity in the solution without adding a strong value.


 =



The document claims that “[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr=
-te-paths] … may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the=
 network not supporting this solution.”. While this
 is true, the proposed solution in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding has exactly the same caveat and requires all nodes in the network =
to support the solution.


 


Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D – E =
– F - G -H and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F h=
ave to support the extension to make the solution
 working, if one of the router doesn’t support the extension, traffic=
 will be dropped.



 


Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.i=
etf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]


 


Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued tha=
t G may have multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and=
 the solution allows for F’ to support the extension
 while F may not support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’=
. Well yes, but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to sup=
port this extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’=
;t think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically
 depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the n=
etwork, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrad=
e all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there.



 


In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of t=
he failed node which wasn’t initially on the path, could lead to traf=
fic congestion or high traffic peaks on links
 that were not sized to carry this traffic. We could easily expect some tra=
ffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this non-natural neighbor of the fai=
led node and then goes back over some part of the same path before reaching=
 the destination.


 


So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here=
.


---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffi=
c to a node that can perform proxy forwarding and
 solve the problem that traffic cannot be forwarded to a proxy forwarding n=
ode after IGP convergence. This protocol extension is necessary.=



This solution does not require that a=
ll network nodes support this extension, take the example you have mentione=
d :


but it still requires that all router=
s upstream to F' support this extension ---> This description is inaccur=
ate, assuming that the previous segment is
 node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the=
 PF


node F' a=
djacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and D do n=
ot support this protocol extension, this
 is not affected.


<=
o:p> 


 


[=
SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not =
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers m=
ay have different CPUs, may have different
 tasks to execute…). B may converge first maybe, but maybe it will be=
 C or D… no one knows and it’s unpredictable. So at the end, if=
 you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to support t=
he mechanism.


           =
;         --------->[HZB]IGP con=
vergence is much faster than SR-TE rerouting,
Theref=
ore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous exampl=
e, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergen=
ce time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes
 in the network do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 m=
s in some scenarios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, T=
hat would result in better convergence performance.


<=
o:p> 



In addition, th=
e Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-=
te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow=
 deletion is required for node faults.
 In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it =
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwardin=
g.


[=
SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have=
 serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has no=
thing to do with the failure. It’s the
 solution, but it has major drawbacks from an operational point of view.


   --------->[HZB] Sim=
ilar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out the node=
s that do not support PF. For the same fault point, different
 remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to differe=
nt PF nodes.


 



3=
)   &=
nbsp; 
Regarding BSID, I’=
;m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds or thousand=
s of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden in IGP. The pro=
posed way will have to be discussed in LSR,
 not in SPRING (see next comment).


 


Note that [I-D.ietf-spri=
ng-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work with BSIDs as long as BS=
ID information of failed node is available in the control-plane of PLRs by =
whatever mechanism. I think this BSID
 handling is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The =
forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, w=
e could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf =
degradation.


-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between =
neighbors and do not need to be flooded to the
 entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments do not exert pressure on IG=
P performance.The control-plane processing and forwarding-plane processing =
of the BSID are not strongly coupled.


 


[SLI] Control plane aspects of =
IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING. So please take the discuss=
ion to LSR for the control plane and forwarding aspects could be further de=
scribed in
 =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
if WGs agrees that B=
SID is interesting to solve.


   --------->[HZB]Sure=
.
We wil=
l consider whether we need to divest some of it into the LSR.


 


 


SR-TE protection    <=
/o:p>


takes effect only from the time during=
 a fault occurs to the TE path converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does =
not take effect during normal forwarding,Compared
 with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is acceptable.


 



4=
)   &=
nbsp; 
The document is current=
ly a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good details abou=
t IGP protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it should detail req=
s for protocols but nothing beyond.


            &=
nbsp;   --=
----->As
 you said, this document defines the detail requests for IGP protocols=



[SLI] No it goes beyond require=
ments and already talks about encoding:





=
“For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called



   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It=
 contains a binding SID and a



   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV m=
ay be advertised in IS-IS Hello



   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Li=
nk State PDUs (CS-LSP)



   [RFC7356].




 


This is not a requirement; this=
 is an IS-IS solution description that has to be discussed in LSR not in SP=
RING.


--------->[HZB]Sure.
We wil=
l consider whether we need to divest some of it into the LSR.


 


 


 


 


 


Brgds,


 


Stephane


 


 






From: spring <spring-bo=
unces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of bruno.decr=
aene@orange.com

Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding






 


Dear WG,


 


This message starts a 2 week WG adopti=
on call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/


 


After review of the document please in=
dicate support (or not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing list=
.


 


Please also provide comments/reasons f=
or your support (or lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate you=
r (non) support as this is not a vote.     



 


If you are willing to work on or revie=
w the document, please state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indi=
cation of the energy level of people in the working
 group willing to work on the document.


 


Thanks!


Bruno, Jim, Joel


________________________________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________=



 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informatio=
ns confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vou=
s avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confidential or pri=
vileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisa=
tion.


If you have received this email in error, please notify the send=
er and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that=
 have been modified, changed or falsified.


Thank you.








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From: Huaimo Chen 
To: Shraddha Hegde , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG 
Thread-Topic: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi Shraddha,

    Thank you for the reply.

    My responses are inline below with [HC].

Best Regards,
Huaimo
________________________________
From: Shraddha Hegde 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:05 AM
To: Huaimo Chen ; bruno.decraene@orange.com ; SPRING WG 
Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding


Huaimo,





Juniper Business Use Only

From: Huaimo Chen 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 2:39 AM
To: Shraddha Hegde ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRIN=
G WG 
Subject: Re: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa=
rding



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



Hi Shraddha,



    Thank you for your comments.



    I remember that I talked to you face to face in IETF meeting and

suggested merging your draft and our draft a long time ago before

your draft is adopted. You said it would be ok to have the two drafts

in WG.

 I honestly don=92t remember the conversation. I would be OK with two d=
rafts

If the proxy forwarding was adding value but I see that it has no significa=
nt benefits

As compared to the existing WG adopted draft.

[HC]: It provides more protection coverage in some cases as compared to

the existing WG adopted draft. This improves the reliability of networks,
and QoE. This is a significant benefit.





In addition, I sent you an email to ask for merging the two drafts,

but did not receive any reply from you.



    I also remember that Zhibo supported the adoption of your draft.



    These two drafts have some overlaps and differences. Our draft

refers to yours for the overlaps, but focuses on the different

method for protection and the area your draft does not cover.

 BSID protection when anycast is not in use is the area your draft

Covers and is not covered by draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-pat=
hs.

proxy forwarding is a solution that overlaps existing solution space and is=
 completely different

from existing solution space. For BSID protection, proxy forwarding is not =
necessary.

It can be solved using context tables by learning the details of the BSID f=
rom neighbors.

It would be good to see how many operators are really interested in this ki=
nd of BSID protection.

[HC]: There is no solution for BSID protection in your draft yet even thoug=
h

you say that it can be solved using context tables ....

The solution for BSID protection in our draft has been there for a couple o=
f years.



    For example, your draft talks about using anycast SID to protect

node failure. I remember that this was discussed in IETF meeting and

some issues were raised by others.

 There are no open issues AFAIKT.

We do not use anycast SID for

protection.

The draft draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths  proposes

anycast SID as one of the ways to achieve protection (It is the most common=
 deployed

mechanisms to achieve protection in SR networks in my knowledge.)

[HC]: How do you protect transit node failure using anycast SID in general?

It seems very hard. Your draft seems talking about some specific cases

for a given/specific network topology.



    Regarding to "May cause congestion somewhere else in the network",

this seems true for the two drafts when a node failed.

 The issue I brought up was more for the bandwidth double booking on in=
terfaces and it

May happen in proxy forwarding as the proxy forwarder may not lie in the sh=
ortest path

But may be on the otherside.

[HC]: Can you give a simple example for node failure and SR path with the S=
ID of the node,

in which your solution does not have the bandwidth double booking and ours

has the bandwidth double booking?



Best Regards,

Huaimo



________________________________

From: spring > on b=
ehalf of Shraddha Hegde >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:15 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com >; SPRING WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



WG,



I  don=92t support the adoption of this document as a WG document.



I am in agreement with stephane=92s comments on the list.



1.       May cause congestion somewhere else in the network

There is already WG adopted document that is addressing the problem space

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.

This draft does not provide significant advantages over the proposed soluti=
ons in

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths.

draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better s=
olution when all nodes

have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding in=
troduces protocol extensions

and the nodes that aren=92t upgraded to understand the extensions will drop=
 the traffic so there isn=92t

any significant improvement in the approach.



In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding may

cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking since it proposes that =
 any neighbor that

claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the protected traffic.



For ex:



[cid:image001.png@01D8142C.DBA09380]



In above diagram

SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5

Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding

On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT4

RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path

RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5



In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.



Operationally this solution is very complex to manage. A network that start=
s with no segment protection,

It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have not been upgraded but c=
ausing congestion

somewhere else would be difficult to debug.



2.       BSID solution

draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discus=
s the solution for BSIDs.

Most of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is =
assigned on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. S=
ection 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths discusses th=
is approach.

             draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  provides a p=
rotection solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.



 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection problem when anycast soluti=
on is not in use, I would prefer the

              Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spring-segment-pr=
otection-sr-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely   different s=
olution based on proxy forwarding which has other implications described in=
 point 1.





Rgds

Shraddha





Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring spring-bounces@ietf.org On Beh=
alf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



Dear WG,



This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/



After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.



If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.



Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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Hi Shraddha,









    Thank you for the reply.









    My responses are inline below with [HC].













Best Regards,



Huaimo




From: Shraddha Hegde <sh=
raddha@juniper.net>

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:05 AM

To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; bruno.decraene@or=
ange.com <bruno.decraene@orange.com>; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org&g=
t;

Subject: RE: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding

 









Huaimo,



 



 



Juniper Business Use Only







From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> 

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 2:39 AM

To: Shraddha Hegde <shraddha@juniper.net>; bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-prox=
y-forwarding







 



[External Email. Be cautious of content]



 







Hi Shraddha, 





 







    Thank you for y=
our comments.







 







    I remember that=
 I talked to you face to face in IETF meeting and








suggested merging your draft =
and our draft a long time ago before







your draft is adopted. You sa=
id it would be ok to have the two drafts








in WG. 



<SH> I honestly don=92t remember the conversation. I would be OK with=
 two drafts



If the proxy forwarding was adding value but I see that it has no significa=
nt benefits



As compared to the existing WG adopted draft.



[HC]: It provides more protection coverage in some cases as compared t=
o 



the existing WG adopted draft. This improves the reliability of networks,




and QoE. This is a significant benefit.



 



 



In addition, I sent you an em=
ail to ask for merging the two drafts,







but did not receive any reply=
 from you.







 







    I also remember=
 that Zhibo supported the adoption of your draft.







 







    These two draft=
s have some overlaps and differences. Our draft







refers to yours for the overl=
aps, but focuses on the different








method for protection and the=
 area your draft does not cover.




<SH> BSID protection when anycast is not in use is the area your draf=
t



Covers and is not covered by draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-pat=
hs.



proxy forwarding is a solution that overlaps existing solution space and is=
 completely different



from existing solution space. For BSID protection, proxy forwarding is not =
necessary.



It can be solved using context tables by learning the details of the BSID f=
rom neighbors.



It would be good to see how many operators are really interested in this ki=
nd of BSID protection.



[HC]: There is no solution for BSID protection in your draft yet even =
though



you say that it can be solved using context tables ....



The solution for BSID protection in our draft has been there f=
or a couple of years.







 







    For example, yo=
ur draft talks about using anycast SID to protect








node failure. I remember that=
 this was discussed in IETF meeting and







some issues were raised by ot=
hers. 




<SH> There are no open issues AFAIKT.



We do not use anycast SID for=








protection.



<SH>The draft draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths  =
proposes



anycast SID as one of the ways to achieve protection (It is the most common=
 deployed



mechanisms to achieve protection in SR networks in my knowledge.)



[HC]: How do you protect transit node failure using anycast SID in general?=




It seems=
 very hard. Your draft seems talking about some specific cases =




for a gi=
ven/specific network topology. 









 







    Regarding to &q=
uot;May cause congestion somewhere else in the network",







this seems true for the two d=
rafts when a node failed.



<SH> The issue I brought up was more for the bandwidth double booking=
 on interfaces and it



May happen in proxy forwarding as the proxy forwarder may not lie in the sh=
ortest path



But may be on the otherside. 



[HC]: Can you give a simple example for node failure and SR path with the S=
ID of the node,



in which your solution does not have the bandwidth double booking a=
nd ours



has the bandwidth double booking?



 









Best Regards,





Huaimo









 













From:=
 spring <spring-bounces@ietf.=
org> on behalf of Shraddha Hegde <shraddha=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>=


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:15 AM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com <bruno.decraene@=
orange.com>; SPRING WG <spring=
@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 











WG,



 



I  don=92t support the adoption of this document as a WG document.



 



I am in agreement with stephane=92s comments on the list.



 



1.      
May cause congestion somewhere else in the network



There is already WG adopted document that is addressing the problem space


draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 



This draft does not provide significant advantages over the proposed soluti=
ons in




draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths. 



draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding claims to provide better s=
olution when all nodes



have not been upgraded. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding in=
troduces protocol extensions



and the nodes that aren=92t upgraded to understand the extensions will drop=
 the traffic so there isn=92t



any significant improvement in the approach. 



 



In fact, the approach described in draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-fo=
rwarding may




cause other issues such as bandwidth double booking since it proposes that =
 any neighbor that



claims proxy forwarding will be used to forward the protected traffic.



 



For ex:



 







 



In above diagram 



SR-TE path is RT1->RT3->RT7->RT5 



Only RT4 supports proxy-forwarding



On failure of RT3, RT1 would send traffic to RT4 via RT1->RT6->RT7-RT=
4



RT4 will then send to RT7 as per the SR-TE path



RT7 will then send to RT5 via RT7->RT4->RT5



 



In this example, same traffic is traversing the RT7->RT4 link 3 times.


 



Operationally this solution is very complex to manage. A network that start=
s with no segment protection,



It may be ok to drop the traffic if some nodes have not been upgraded but c=
ausing congestion




somewhere else would be difficult to debug.



 



2.      
BSID solution



draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths does not explicitly discus=
s the solution for BSIDs.



Most of the BSID deployments use anycast based solution where same BSID is =
assigned on anycast nodes and BSID is always preceded by the anycast SID. S=
ection 2.2 in draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths discusses th=
is approach.



             dr=
aft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding  provides a protection =
solution for BSIDs when anycast is not in use.



            



 If WG is inclined to solve the BSID protection problem when anycast s=
olution is not in use, I would prefer the



            &nb=
sp; Approach to be more aligned with draft-ietf-spring-segment-protection-s=
r-te-paths. I do not support Introducing completely   different s=
olution based on proxy forwarding which has other implications described in=
 point 1.



 



 



Rgds



Shraddha



 



 



Juniper Business Use Only







From: spring spring-bounc=
es@ietf.org
On Behalf Of bruno.decr=
aene@orange.com

Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2022 3:49 PM

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding







 



[External Email. Be cautious of content]<=
/b>



 





=
Dear WG,



=
 



=
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding



=
https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwardin=
g/



=
 



=
After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



=
 



=
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.




=
 



=
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the
 document.



 



Thanks!



Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
__________


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peu=
vent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doiven=
t donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copi=
es sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi =
que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alt=
eration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite =
si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may=
 contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by la=
w;


they should not be distributed, used=
 or copied without authorisation.


If you have received this email in e=
rror, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.=



As emails may be altered, Orange is =
not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.


Thank you.




















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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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Hi Stephane,

     Thank you for your reply.
     My response is inline below with [HC2].

Best Regards,
Huaimo
________________________________
From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 3:40 AM
To: Huaimo Chen ; 'Huzhibo' =
; bruno.decraene@orange.com ; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding


Hi,



[SLI2].... To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the ex=
tension. ...

[HC]: When some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for som=
e failures.



[SLI3]: MAY or MAY NOT, there is absolutely no guarantee, then an SP who wa=
nts to keep the guarantee of FRR (FRR is a guaranteed SLA to their customer=
s), they must deploy everywhere.

I=92m always trying to think with realistic deployments in mind, not just t=
heoretical case on paper.

[HC2]: In some real networks, there are some features that are deployed on =
some nodes but not all their nodes.





From: Huaimo Chen 
Sent: jeudi 27 janvier 2022 23:03
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; 'Huzhibo' ; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' 
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi Stephane,



    Thank you for your comments.



[SLI2].... To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the ex=
tension. ...

[HC]: When some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for som=
e failures.



Best Regards,

Huaimo

________________________________

From: spring > on b=
ehalf of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:40 PM
To: 'Huzhibo' >; bruno.decrae=
ne@orange.com >; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi,



[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute=85). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D=85 no one knows and it=92s u=
npredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work=
, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE =
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in th=
e previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter t=
han the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do=
 not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenario=
s. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result i=
n better convergence performance.



[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the hea=
d end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechani=
sm, it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR=
 working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you ar=
e mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: network=
s are never converging in 50ms).









[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It=92s the solution, but it has major drawba=
cks from an operational point of view.



--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only f=
ilters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, diff=
erent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to di=
fferent PF nodes.



[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has =
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FR=
R shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that ca=
n fit traffic. (See RFC7916).

So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any co=
ntrol is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates conges=
tion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow on, you=
=92ll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not initially flowin=
g through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to customers). Keep=
ing control of FRR path is a very important topic.





Stephane













From: Huzhibo >
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi,



Please find more inline.





From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitk=
ows.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo >; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi,



Please find more inline.



From: Huzhibo >
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene=
@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi slitkows :



Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.



Thanks



Zhibo Hu

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gm=
ail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG=
' >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding



Hi



I=92m NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:



  1.  The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this problem,=
 I don=92t think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for =
the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create depl=
oyment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.

-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behav=
iors to implement SR-TE node protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-pr=
oxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node protection.



It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution solv=
es the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding seg=
ments.



[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion=
 below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion=
. As there is already a WG doc, I don=92t see any reason for creating anoth=
er one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.



  1.  Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without a=
dding a strong value.



The document claims that =93[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths=
] =85 may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not =
supporting this solution.=94. While this is true, the proposed solution in =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same cavea=
t and requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.



Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D =96 E =96 F - G=
 -H and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to suppor=
t the extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn=92=
t support the extension, traffic will be dropped.



Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.ietf-s=
pring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]



Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G m=
ay have multiple upstream neighbors let=92s say F and F=92 and the solution=
 allows for F=92 to support the extension while F may not support, so the s=
olution will send the traffic to F=92. Well yes, but this still requires al=
l routers upstream to F=92 to support this extension and maybe F is on the =
path to F=92. So, I don=92t think the argument is valid as it may possibly =
work tactically depending on the network topology when we look at a small p=
ortion of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will=
 have to upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the ben=
efit is there.



In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the fa=
iled node which wasn=92t initially on the path, could lead to traffic conge=
stion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traf=
fic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to =
this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some p=
art of the same path before reaching the destination.



So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.

---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node tha=
t can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be=
 forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol =
extension is necessary.

This solution does not require that all network nodes support this extensio=
n, take the example you have mentioned :

but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extensio=
n ---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment i=
s node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds th=
e PF

node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C a=
nd D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.





[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute=85). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D=85 no one knows and it=92s u=
npredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to work=
, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-T=
E rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in =
the previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter=
 than the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network =
do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenar=
ios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result=
 in better convergence performance.



In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment=
-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols, but is also complex. In=
 addition, slow deletion is required for node faults. In addition, loop pre=
vention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately dire=
ct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It=92s the solution, but it has major drawba=
cks from an operational point of view.

   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document onl=
y filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, d=
ifferent remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to=
 different PF nodes.



  1.  Regarding BSID, I=92m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there ma=
y be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot =
of burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in=
 SPRING (see next comment).



Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the c=
ontrol-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is o=
rthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding ope=
rations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not ex=
pect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.

-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and d=
o not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segme=
nts do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing a=
nd forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.



[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPR=
ING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and forward=
ing aspects could be further described in  [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protect=
ion-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is interesting to solve.

   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of =
it into the LSR.





SR-TE protection

takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path conver=
ges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal forward=
ing,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is accepta=
ble.



  1.  The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as =
it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it=92s a SPRING =
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.

                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail reque=
sts for IGP protocols

[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding:

=93For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called

   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a

   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello

   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)

   [RFC7356].



This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has t=
o be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.

--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it =
into the LSR.











Brgds,



Stephane





From: spring > On B=
ehalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-=
forwarding



Dear WG,



This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forw=
arding/



After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.



If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the document.



Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________



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--_000_BY3PR13MB5044FE3A54E860E0678B7B5CF2229BY3PR13MB5044namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Hi Stephane,






     Thank you for your =
reply.


     My response is inli=
ne below with [HC2].














Best Regards,

Huaimo






From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om <slitkows.ietf@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 3:40 AM

To: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com>; 'Huzhibo' <huz=
hibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com <bruno.decraene@orange.co=
m>; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding

 









Hi,



 



[SLI2]...=
. To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension. =
...



[HC]: Whe=
n some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for some failure=
s.



 



[SLI3]: MAY or MAY NOT, there is absolutely no guarantee, then an SP who wa=
nts to keep the guarantee of FRR (FRR is a guaranteed SLA to their customer=
s), they must deploy everywhere.



I=92m always trying to think with realistic deployments in mind, not just t=
heoretical case on paper.



[HC2]: In some real networks, there are some features that are deployed on =
some nodes but not all their nodes.



 



 







From: Huaimo Chen <huaimo.chen@futurewei.com> 

Sent: jeudi 27 janvier 2022 23:03

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; 'Huzhibo' <huzhibo@huawei.com>; b=
runo.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 





Hi Stephane,







 







    Thank you for y=
our comments.







 







[SLI2]...=
. To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension. =
...







[HC]: Whe=
n some nodes (not all) support the extension, FRR may work for some failure=
s.







 









Best Regards, 





Huaimo















From:=
 spring <spring-bounces@ietf.=
org> on behalf of
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com <=
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com><=
br>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 12:40 PM

To: 'Huzhibo' <huzhibo@huaw=
ei.com>;
bruno.decraene@orange.com =
<bruno.decraene@orange.com<=
/a>>; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding






 











Hi,



 



[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute=85). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will
 be C or D=85 no one knows and it=92s unpredictable. So at the end, if you =
want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to support the me=
chanism.



    &nb=
sp;            =
 --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE rerouting,
Therefore, even if node B i=
s slower than node C and node D in the previous example, the convergence ti=
me of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergence time of the SR-TE =
path. If some nodes in the network
 do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scena=
rios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would resul=
t in better convergence performance.



 



[SLI2]of course SR-TE will =
converge slower, I never discussed about the head end. My point:  If C=
 is faster than B and C does not support your mechanism, it will drop traff=
ic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore.
 To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (s=
eems you are mixing convergence and protection which are two different thin=
gs: networks are never converging in 50ms).




 



 



 



 



[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It=92s the solution, but it has major drawba=
cks from an operational point of view.



 



--------->[HZB] Similar =
to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out the nodes tha=
t do not support PF. For the same fault point, different remote nodes selec=
t different PF nodes and load balance
 traffic to different PF nodes.



 



[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA i=
s to try to keep the traffic on a path that has been sized properly (this i=
s one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FRR shown that this is import=
ant to constraint/steer FRR path on
 path that can fit traffic. (See RFC7916).



So, letting traffic going t=
o any neighbor of the failed node without any control is wrong and may crea=
te more damages. When FRR traffic creates congestion on some links the prot=
ected traffic was not intended to
 flow on, you=92ll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not ini=
tially flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to cus=
tomers). Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic.




 



 



Stephane



 



 



 



 



 



 







From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huaw=
ei.com>


Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 



Hi,



 



Please find more inline.



 


 







From: slitkows.ietf@gmail=
.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@g=
mail.com]


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM

To: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei=
.com>; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 



Hi,



 



Please find more inline.



 







From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huaw=
ei.com>


Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31

To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.c=
om; 
bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 



Hi slitkows :



 



Thanks for your comments, P=
lease see inline.



 



Thanks



 



Zhibo Hu







From: spring [mailto:spri=
ng-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of slitkows.iet=
f@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM

To: bruno.decraene@oran=
ge.com; 'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.=
org>

Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-rou=
ting-proxy-forwarding







 



Hi 



 



I=92m NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:



 


    

  1. 
The WG already have a WG document which is=
 dealing with this problem, I don=92t think that WG should come with multip=
le documents/solutions for the same solution space as it may just confuse t=
he industry and create deployment issues
 as different vendors may pick different solutions.



-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines lo=
cal behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection. draft-hu-spring-segment-r=
outing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE
 node protection. 



 



It 
optimized the number of entri=
es in the Context Table.
This solution solves t=
he connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding segment=
s.



 



[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion=
 below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion=
. As there is already a WG doc, I don=92t see any reason for creating anoth=
er one except creating artificial
 work for the IETF and confusing readers.



 


    

  1. 
Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without adding =
a strong value.



 



The document claims that =93[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths=
] =85 may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not =
supporting this solution.=94. While this is true, the proposed solution in =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 has exactly the same caveat and requires all nodes in the network to suppo=
rt the solution.



 



Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D =96 E =96 F - G=
 -H and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to suppor=
t the extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn=92=
t support the extension, traffic will
 be dropped. 



 



Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of [I-D.ietf-s=
pring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]



 



Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G m=
ay have multiple upstream neighbors let=92s say F and F=92 and the solution=
 allows for F=92 to support the extension while F may not support, so the s=
olution will send the traffic to F=92. Well
 yes, but this still requires all routers upstream to F=92 to support this =
extension and maybe F is on the path to F=92. So, I don=92t think the argum=
ent is valid as it may possibly work tactically depending on the network to=
pology when we look at a small portion
 of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have =
to upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit i=
s there.




 



In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the fa=
iled node which wasn=92t initially on the path, could lead to traffic conge=
stion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traf=
fic. We could easily expect some traffic
 tromboning, where traffic goes to this non-natural neighbor of the failed =
node and then goes back over some part of the same path before reaching the=
 destination.



 



So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.



---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a=
 node that can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic =
cannot be forwarded to a proxy forwarding
 node after IGP convergence. This protocol extension is necessary.


This solution does not requir=
e that all network nodes support this extension, take the example you have =
mentioned :



but it still requires that al=
l routers upstream to F' support this extension ---> This description is=
 inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is node B, when node G fail=
s. When the node B converges, the node
 B finds the PF



node F' adjacent to G, and ca=
n push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and D do not support this prot=
ocol extension, this is not affected.



 



 



[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not=
 theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers =
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute=85). B may con=
verge first maybe, but maybe it will
 be C or D=85 no one knows and it=92s unpredictable. So at the end, if you =
want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to support the me=
chanism.



    &nb=
sp;            =
   --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE re=
routing,
Therefore, even if node B i=
s slower than node C and node D in the previous example, the convergence ti=
me of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the convergence time of the SR-TE =
path. If some nodes in the network
 do not support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scena=
rios. If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would resul=
t in better convergence performance.



 



In addition, the Hold timers =
solution mentioned in [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does=
 not extend protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is r=
equired for node faults. In addition,
 loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it cannot accura=
tely direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy forwarding.



[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can hav=
e serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has n=
othing to do with the failure. It=92s the solution, but it has major drawba=
cks from an operational point of view.



   --------->[=
HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only filters out =
the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, different remot=
e nodes select different PF nodes and load balance
 traffic to different PF nodes.



 


    

  1. 
Regarding BSID, I=92m not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be h=
undreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of bur=
den in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRIN=
G (see next comment).



 



Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the c=
ontrol-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is o=
rthogonal to the proxy-forwarding
 controlplane behavior. The forwarding operations for BSID will have to be =
discussed more in details, we could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or=
 4 lookups without any perf degradation.



-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighb=
ors and do not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, bind=
ing segments do not exert pressure on IGP
 performance.The control-plane processing and forwarding-plane processing o=
f the BSID are not strongly coupled.



 



[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPR=
ING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and forward=
ing aspects could be further described in
 [I-D.ietf-spring-segm=
ent-protection-sr-te-paths]
if WGs agrees that BSID is interest=
ing to solve.



   --------->[=
HZB]Sure. 
We will consider whether we need to divest some of it into the LSR.<=
/p>


 



 



SR-TE protection =
   



takes effect only from the ti=
me during a fault occurs to the TE path converges. Therefore, SR-TE protect=
ion does not take effect during normal forwarding,Compared with impaired co=
nnectivity, performance degradation
 is acceptable.



 


    

  1. 
The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as it tal=
ks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it=92s a SPRING doc, i=
t should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.



    &nb=
sp;           ------->As y=
ou said, this document defines the detail requests
 for IGP protocols



[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding: 




=93For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called



   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a b=
inding SID and a



   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be adverti=
sed in IS-IS Hello



   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs=
 (CS-LSP)



   [RFC7356].





 



This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has t=
o be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.



--------->[HZB]Sure. 
We will consider whether we need to divest some of it into the LSR.<=
/p>


 



 



 



 



 



Brgds,



 



Stephane



 



 







From: spring <spring-b=
ounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of bruno.decr=
aene@orange.com

Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19

To: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org=
>

Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing=
-proxy-forwarding







 



=
Dear WG,



=
 



=
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for draft=
-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segme=
nt-routing-proxy-forwarding/



=
 



=
After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG adopti=
on of the document to the mailing list.



=
 



=
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as =
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote=
.     




=
 



=
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this exp=
licitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of people =
in the working group willing to work on the
 document.



 



Thanks!



Bruno, Jim, Joel


____________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
__________


 


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In-Reply-To: 
From: Nandan Saha 
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 08:59:40 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Ketan Talaulikar 
Cc: SPRING WG , draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fee85f05d6a75cc9"
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Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt
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Thanks Ketan. It should be fine to keep the latest text to disallow 0.


On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 8:31 PM Ketan Talaulikar 
wrote:

> Hi Nandan,
>
> The comment for clarification on zero value came during the Last-Call
> review:
> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/d7XCsWsbiTyE588nHNrKhl4woYQ/
>
> There have been previous discussions/suggestions on the list for the color
> value 0. I am not able to readily find those threads.
>
> We can revert this change to include the value 0 as a valid color if there
> are concerns. Please let us know.
>
> The draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy points to the SPRING draft
> for validation so there would not need to be any changes in there.
>
> Thanks,
> Ketan
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 11:22 PM Nandan Saha  wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>  revision 15 has:
>> 
>>   The color is an unsigned *__non-zero__* 32-bit numerical
>> 
>>
>> This seems like a backwards incompatible change since all this while 0
>> was a valid color.
>> Has this been discussed on the list?
>> Also, are we going to make changes to
>> draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy to define the handling for NLRIs
>> that have color set to 0?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nandan
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:11 AM  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>> directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG
>>> of the IETF.
>>>
>>>         Title           : Segment Routing Policy Architecture
>>>         Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
>>>                           Ketan Talaulikar
>>>                           Daniel Voyer
>>>                           Alex Bogdanov
>>>                           Paul Mattes
>>>         Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt
>>>         Pages           : 39
>>>         Date            : 2022-01-26
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>    Segment Routing (SR) allows a headend node to steer a packet flow
>>>    along any path.  Intermediate per-path states are eliminated thanks
>>>    to source routing.  The headend node steers a flow into an SR Policy.
>>>    The packets steered into an SR Policy carry an ordered list of
>>>    segments associated with that SR Policy.  This document details the
>>>    concepts of SR Policy and steering into an SR Policy.
>>>
>>>
>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/
>>>
>>> There is also an htmlized version available at:
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15
>>>
>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15
>>>
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org:
>>> :internet-drafts
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> spring mailing list
>>> spring@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>>>
>>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Thanks Ketan. It should be fine to keep the latest text to=
 disallow 0.


<=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 8:31 PM Ketan =
Talaulikar <ketant.ietf@gmail.c=
om> wrote:
Hi Nandan,

The comment for clarificat=
ion on zero value came during the Last-Call review:=C2=A0https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/d7XCsWsbiTyE588nHN=
rKhl4woYQ/

There have been previous discussion=
s/suggestions on the list for the color value 0. I am not able to readily f=
ind those threads.

We can revert this change to in=
clude the value 0 as a valid color if there are concerns. Please let us kno=
w.

The draft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy po=
ints to the SPRING draft for validation so there would not need to be any c=
hanges in there.

Thanks,
Ketan


On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 11:22 PM Nandan Saha <nandan@arista.com> wrote:
<=
div>Hi folks,
=C2=A0revision 15 has:
<quote>
<=
/div>
=C2=A0 The color is an unsigned __non-zero__ 32-bit numerical 
<=
;/quote>

This seems like a backwards incompatib=
le change since all this while 0 was a valid color.
Has this been=
 discussed on the list?
Also, are we going to make changes to dra=
ft-ietf-idr-segment-routing-te-policy to define the handling for NLRIs that=
 have color set to 0?

Thanks,
Nandan
=


On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 7:11 AM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.

This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of =
the IETF.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Segment Routing Policy Architecture

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Clar=
ence Filsfils

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ketan Talaulikar

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Daniel Voyer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alex Bogdanov

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Paul Mattes

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-spring-segment-routing-policy-15.txt

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 39

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2022-01-26



Abstract:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing (SR) allows a headend node to steer a packet f=
low

=C2=A0 =C2=A0along any path.=C2=A0 Intermediate per-path states are elimina=
ted thanks

=C2=A0 =C2=A0to source routing.=C2=A0 The headend node steers a flow into a=
n SR Policy.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The packets steered into an SR Policy carry an ordered list of=


=C2=A0 =C2=A0segments associated with that SR Policy.=C2=A0 This document d=
etails the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0concepts of SR Policy and steering into an SR Policy.





The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:

https://datatracker.ietf.o=
rg/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/



There is also an htmlized version available at:

https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15



A diff from the previous version is available at:

https://www.ietf.org/=
rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-15





Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-dra=
fts





_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring








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From: Haoyu Song 
To: Greg Mirsky 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Greg,

Thanks for the info. I'd like to clarify this work means to use the standar=
dized IOAM options to support active measurement, so it's fair to say we us=
e IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement. Another point I'd like to mention is=
 that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SRv6 s=
pecifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, and i=
t means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.

In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv6 networks prevail, it'=
s natural to use the traffic steering feature for probing and measurements =
as well. If we have a unified method to cover as many techniques as possibl=
e, we can imagine new techniques can also be introduced easily. Without nee=
ding to set up any sessions and maintain any states, the controller can inj=
ect probing packets from any node, steer them on any path, terminate them a=
t any node, and collect any data we like. Such in-network measurement doesn=
't need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be used for traffic engineer=
ing (e.g., evaluating different paths at background) and for gray failure d=
etection and prevention.

I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility, and great application =
potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constructive suggestions to i=
mprove it.

Thanks!
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
now, without in-lining my notes.
It appears that you propose not to use draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, y=
our proposal cannot be referred to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-ins=
pired, IOAMish. As a result, a node supporting standardized IOAM would not =
understand your probe packet without an SW upgrade. In my book, that's a ne=
w protocol.
In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger Geib, where combining the defined=
 techniques of steering test probes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot o=
f useful information about a network:

  *   RFC 8403
  *   draft-ietf-ippm-connectivity-monitoring

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg, please see Inline

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined =
below under the GIM2>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding t=
he IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.

HS>> Let's give a few features of our proposal: (1) it's session-less and w=
e don't need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs for a return=
 path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely determined by =
the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and poten=
tially other OAM methods.
GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe from =
an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as simp=
le as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of the S=
R policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the =
operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I ima=
gine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g.,=
 ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?

HS2>> For the first point: I don't think a protocol is needed here. If one =
wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he doesn't need to find a user packet=
 on that path to carry IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instead=
, he can generate a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe=
 packet to carry IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the =
IOAM data using the mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet.
For the second point: I don't think ICMP can achieve what IOAM can do. IOAM=
 is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. Moreover, the p=
roposal can be easily extended to support other kinds of OAM methods. One j=
ust carry it in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry about th=
e size if such info has to be carried in EH TLV.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because i=
t's not included in a user packet.

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
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Hi Greg,


 


Thanks for the info. I’d like to clarify this =
work means to use the standardized IOAM options to support active measureme=
nt, so it’s fair to say we use IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement. A=
nother point I’d like to mention is that

draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SR=
v6 specifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, a=
nd it means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.


 


In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv=
6 networks prevail, it’s natural to use the traffic steering feature =
for probing and measurements as well. If we have a unified method to cover =
as many techniques as possible, we can imagine
 new techniques can also be introduced easily. Without needing to set up an=
y sessions and maintain any states, the controller can inject probing packe=
ts from any node, steer them on any path, terminate them at any node, and c=
ollect any data we like. Such in-network
 measurement doesn’t need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be u=
sed for traffic engineering (e.g., evaluating different paths at background=
) and for gray failure detection and prevention.   

 


I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility,=
 and great application potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constr=
uctive suggestions to improve it.


 


Thanks!


Haoyu  


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g=
t; 

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 










Hi Haoyu,




now, without in-lining my notes.






It appears that you propose not to use 
draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, your proposal cannot be referr=
ed to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-inspired, IOAMish. As a result, =
a node supporting standardized IOAM would not understand your probe packet =
without an SW upgrade. In my book,
 that's a new protocol.






In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger
 Geib, where combining the defined techniques of steering test p=
robes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of useful information about a n=
etwork:







Regards,






Greg












 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wro=
te:










Hi Greg, please see Inline


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes =
in-lined below under the GIM2>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
; wrote:










Hi Greg,



 


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.



 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. =
As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active mea=
surement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to u=
se an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;


 


HS>> Let’s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=
’s session-less and we don’t need assign any roles (e.g.,  =
;reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measurement can
 start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based wh=
ich can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other OAM methods.<=
o:p>


















GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a t=
est probe from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multic=
ast) is as simple as you present. If an operator
 needs to monitor the performance of the SR policy used by data packets, IO=
AM can be applied to data packets. If the operator wants to explore a polic=
y that is not used for data traffic, I imagine IOAM can be added to a test =
packet of the existing OAM protocol,
 e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?


 


HS2>> For the first point: I don’t think a protocol is=
 needed here. If one wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he d=
oesn’t need to find a user packet on that path to carry IOAM
 (there could be no such packet at all). Instead, he can generate a probe p=
acket with an SRH for the path and use the probe packet to carry IOAM. At t=
he path end, it simply extracts and exports the IOAM data using the mechani=
sm defined for IOAM and drops the
 probe packet.  


For the second point: I don’t think ICMP can achieve what IO=
AM can do. IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. =
Moreover, the proposal can be easily extended
 to support other kinds of OAM methods. One just carry it in UDP payload us=
ing different port. No need to worry about the size if such info has to be =
carried in EH TLV.






















options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:<=
o:p>








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1=
.








Does your proposal change that?


 


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measur=
ement because it’s not included in a user packet.











 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring


































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From: Haoyu Song 
To: Tianran Zhou , Greg Mirsky 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm]  Active OAM in SRv6
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See inline

-Haoyu

From: Tianran Zhou 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:53 PM
To: Greg Mirsky ; Haoyu Song 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,

I agree with Greg. I think IOAM with existing OAM protocol can address your=
 case.
Again, I can show you some more details on your motivation.
(1) it's session-less and we don't need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector)=
;
ZTR> I am not sure if I understand what the "session-less" mean.
But I think in your application, the sender should keep the session state, =
right?
Reflector is not always required. OWAMP is one way, so no reflector. STAMP,=
 IMHO, could also be one way.
In RFC8762, STAMP "enables the measurement of both one-way and round-trip p=
erformance metrics".

HS> It means "stateless". The state could be some identifier kept by the ne=
twork device. Augmenting some existing protocols to cover new function requ=
ire the same amount of work and in many cases, due to the limitations of th=
e original protocol, the extensibility is seriously limited. The protocols =
you mentioned were designed for e2e measurement. Each new patch adding to t=
hem will raise the concern for the standard updates and eventually make the=
 protocol itself unwieldy because the new things are beyond the original de=
sign scope. In other words, having the existing protocol doesn't help here =
but exert unnecessary limitations.

(2) no needs for a return path. The measurement can start and end at any no=
de (solely determined by the SRH);
ZTR> This is achieved by SRH, you did not create anything on OAM after UDP.=
 So this applies for any one way OAM protocol.
On the other hand, many measurement need two ways (e.g., delay). Even data =
collections need two ways, because the forward and backward are totally dif=
ferent two paths.
Of cause, you can use one way protocol to travel both way.
Two way need a reflector, but will also reduce a lot of resources. For exam=
ple the length of the SID list.

HS> Two way can easily be supported by SRH itself (just add the round trip =
path in segment list). There's no need to introduce any other mechanism.

(3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially oth=
er OAM methods.
ZTR> STAMP is UDP based.

HS> If so, it can also be supported by our framework. But there's no need t=
o force IOAM functions as a part of STAMP. That's like reinventing the whee=
l.

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 6:01 AM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined =
below under the GIM2>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding=
 the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.

HS>> Let's give a few features of our proposal: (1) it's session-less and w=
e don't need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs for a return=
 path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely determined by =
the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and poten=
tially other OAM methods.
GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe from =
an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as simp=
le as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of the S=
R policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the =
operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I ima=
gine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g.,=
 ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because i=
t's not included in a user packet.

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--_000_BY3PR13MB478770C4B53E19D5F06912569A229BY3PR13MB4787namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











See inline


 


-Haoyu


 






From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@h=
uawei.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 3:53 PM

To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Haoyu Song <haoyu.=
song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6





 


Hi Haoyu,


 


I agree with Greg. I think IOAM with =
existing OAM protocol can address your case.


Again, I can show you some more detai=
ls on your motivation.


(1) it’s session-less and we don’t need =
assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector);



ZTR> I am not sure if I understand=
 what the “session-less” mean.


But I think in your application, the =
sender should keep the session state, right?


Reflector is not always required. OWA=
MP is one way, so no reflector. STAMP, IMHO, could also be one way.



In RFC8762, STAMP “enables the =
measurement of both one-way and round-trip performance metrics”.=



 


HS> It means “stateless”. The state =
could be some identifier kept by the network device. Augmenting some existi=
ng protocols to cover new function require the same amount of
 work and in many cases, due to the limitations of the original protocol, t=
he extensibility is seriously limited. The protocols you mentioned were des=
igned for e2e measurement. Each new patch adding to them will raise the con=
cern for the standard updates and
 eventually make the protocol itself unwieldy because the new things are be=
yond the original design scope. In other words, having the existing protoco=
l doesn’t help here but exert unnecessary limitations.  


 


(2) no needs for a return path. The measurement can =
start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH);



ZTR> This is achieved by SRH, you =
did not create anything on OAM after UDP. So this applies for any one way O=
AM protocol.


On the other hand, many measurement n=
eed two ways (e.g., delay). Even data collections need two ways, because th=
e forward and backward are totally different two
 paths. 


Of cause, you can use one way protoco=
l to travel both way.


Two way need a reflector, but will al=
so reduce a lot of resources. For example the length of the SID list.


 


HS> Two way can easily be supported by SRH itsel=
f (just add the round trip path in segment list). There’s no need to =
introduce any other mechanism.



 


(3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM mo=
des and potentially other OAM methods.


ZTR> STAMP is UDP based.


 


HS> If so, it can also be supported by our frame=
work. But there’s no need to force IOAM functions as a part of STAMP.=
 That’s like reinventing the wheel.


 


From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 6:01 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu=
.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my fo=
llow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM2>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wr=
ote:










Hi Greg,



 


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.



 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. =
As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active mea=
surement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to u=
se an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;


 


HS>> Let’s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=
’s session-less and we don’t need assign any roles (e.g.,  =
;reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measurement can
 start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based wh=
ich can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other OAM methods.<=
o:p>


















GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that ca=
n generate a test probe from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 s=
upports multicast) is as simple as you present. If an operator needs to mon=
itor the performance of the SR policy used
 by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the operator want=
s to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I imagine IOAM can=
 be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g., ICMP. Am I m=
issing some of the requirements?






















options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:<=
o:p>








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1=
.








Does your proposal change that?


 


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measur=
ement because it’s not included in a user packet.











 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

























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In-Reply-To: 
From: Greg Mirsky 
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 12:02:53 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003c5c3705d6a9ec92"
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Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Haoyu,
I'm surprised that you suggest an alternative to the IPv6 way of collecting
IOAM data. SRv6 must use all of IPv6 OAM. Would you agree? In some rare
cases, SRv6-specific extensions to IPv6 OAMAs for the limited amount of
information that can be collected using IPv6 extension headers, IOAM Direct
Export
, or
the Hybrid Two-step

provide the solution. Both solve this problem by separating the generation
of the IOAM data set from the collection and transport. You are
well-familiar with both drafts.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM Haoyu Song 
wrote:

> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info. I=E2=80=99d like to clarify this work means to use t=
he
> standardized IOAM options to support active measurement, so it=E2=80=99s =
fair to
> say we use IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement. Another point I=E2=80=99d=
 like to
> mention is that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options
> 
> is for IPv6 in general but not for SRv6 specifically. Moreover, it also u=
se
> EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, and it means to support in-band
> measurement for user traffic.
>
>
>
> In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv6 networks prevail,
> it=E2=80=99s natural to use the traffic steering feature for probing and
> measurements as well. If we have a unified method to cover as many
> techniques as possible, we can imagine new techniques can also be
> introduced easily. Without needing to set up any sessions and maintain an=
y
> states, the controller can inject probing packets from any node, steer th=
em
> on any path, terminate them at any node, and collect any data we like. Su=
ch
> in-network measurement doesn=E2=80=99t need to involve end hosts like PIN=
G. It can
> be used for traffic engineering (e.g., evaluating different paths at
> background) and for gray failure detection and prevention.
>
>
>
> I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility, and great applicatio=
n
> potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constructive suggestions to
> improve it.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Haoyu
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky 
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM
> *To:* Haoyu Song 
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
> now, without in-lining my notes.
>
> It appears that you propose not to use draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options
> .
> Thus, your proposal cannot be referred to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is
> IOAM-inspired, IOAMish. As a result, a node supporting standardized IOAM
> would not understand your probe packet without an SW upgrade. In my book,
> that's a new protocol.
>
> In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger Geib
> ,
> where combining the defined techniques of steering test probes with
> standard IOAM might reveal a lot of useful information about a network:
>
>    - RFC 8403
>    
>    - draft-ietf-ippm-connectivity-monitoring
>    
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg, please see Inline
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky 
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM
> *To:* Haoyu Song 
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
> thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-line=
d
> below under the GIM2>> tag.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Haoyu
>
>
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
> *To:* Haoyu Song 
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
> thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the
> concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft
>  it
> seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the
> right thing to do.
>
> Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song 
> wrote:
>
> Hi SPRING WG,
>
>
>
> Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary
> to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard
> to catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficien=
t
> planning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6
> In-situ Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement
> approach which can support different
>
> GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement
> protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an
> acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions,
> including the SRPM draft
> ,
> comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
>
>
>
> HS>> Let=E2=80=99s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=E2=80=99s =
session-less and
> we don=E2=80=99t need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs f=
or a
> return path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely
> determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM
> modes and potentially other OAM methods.
>
> GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe fro=
m
> an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as
> simple as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of
> the SR policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. =
If
> the operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic,=
 I
> imagine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol,
> e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?
>
>
>
> HS2>> For the first point: I don=E2=80=99t think a protocol is needed her=
e. If one
> wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he doesn=E2=80=99t need to find a u=
ser packet
> on that path to carry IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instea=
d,
> he can generate a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe
> packet to carry IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the
> IOAM data using the mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet=
.
>
> For the second point: I don=E2=80=99t think ICMP can achieve what IOAM ca=
n do.
> IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. Moreover,
> the proposal can be easily extended to support other kinds of OAM methods=
.
> One just carry it in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry
> about the size if such info has to be carried in EH TLV.
>
> options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry
> about the extension header issue.
>
> GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
>
>    In terms of the classification given
>
>    in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
>
> Does your proposal change that?
>
>
>
> HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because
> it=E2=80=99s not included in a user packet.
>
>
>
> Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I=E2=80=99d l=
ike to
> know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopte=
d
> by the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work=
,
> please also let me know.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/
> 
>
>
>
> Thank you very much!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Haoyu
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>
>

--0000000000003c5c3705d6a9ec92
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Haoyu,
I'm surprised that you suggest an altern=
ative to the IPv6 way of collecting IOAM data. SRv6 must use all of IPv6 OA=
M. Would you agree? In some rare cases, SRv6-specific extensions to IPv6 OA=
MAs for the limited amount of information that can be collected using IPv6 =
extension headers, IOAM Direct Export, or the Hybrid Two-ste=
p provide the solution. Both solve this problem by separating the gener=
ation of the IOAM data set from the collection and transport. You are well-=
familiar with both drafts.

Regards,
Greg=


On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote:











Hi Greg,


=C2=A0


Thanks for the info. I=E2=80=99d like to clarify thi=
s work means to use the standardized IOAM options to support active measure=
ment, so it=E2=80=99s fair to say we use IOAM in SRv6 for active measuremen=
t. Another point I=E2=80=99d like to mention is that

draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SR=
v6 specifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, a=
nd it means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.<=
/p>

=C2=A0


In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv=
6 networks prevail, it=E2=80=99s natural to use the traffic steering featur=
e for probing and measurements as well. If we have a unified method to cove=
r as many techniques as possible, we can imagine
 new techniques can also be introduced easily. Without needing to set up an=
y sessions and maintain any states, the controller can inject probing packe=
ts from any node, steer them on any path, terminate them at any node, and c=
ollect any data we like. Such in-network
 measurement doesn=E2=80=99t need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be=
 used for traffic engineering (e.g., evaluating different paths at backgrou=
nd) and for gray failure detection and prevention. =C2=A0=C2=A0


=C2=A0


I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility,=
 and great application potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constr=
uctive suggestions to improve it.


=C2=A0


Thanks!


Haoyu =C2=A0


=C2=A0




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> 

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




=C2=A0










Hi Haoyu,




now, without in-lining my notes.






It appears that you propose not to use 
draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, your proposal cannot be referr=
ed to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-inspired, IOAMish. As a result, =
a node supporting standardized IOAM would not understand your probe packet =
without an SW upgrade. In my book,
 that's a new protocol.






In closing, I'll reference two works by=C2=A0Ruediger
 Geib, where combining the defined techniques of steering test p=
robes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of useful information about a n=
etwork:







Regards,






Greg












=C2=A0






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurew=
ei.com> wrote:










Hi Greg, please see Inline


=C2=A0




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




=C2=A0








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my fo=
llow-up notes in-lined below under the GIM2>> tag.






=C2=A0






Regards,






Greg






=C2=A0






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@future=
wei.com> wrote:










Hi Greg,



=C2=A0


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline resp=
onse.



=C2=A0


Best,


Haoyu


=C2=A0




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




=C2=A0








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft=C2=A0it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do.=C2=A0






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






=C2=A0






Regards,






Greg






=C2=A0






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurew=
ei.com> wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


=C2=A0


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a =
network is necessary to detect =C2=A0gray failures, which are the key culpr=
it for poor QoS but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost. =C2=A0=C2=A0Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple =C2=A0active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.=
=C2=A0


=C2=A0


HS>> Let=E2=80=99s give a few features of our =
proposal: (1) it=E2=80=99s session-less and we don=E2=80=99t need assign an=
y roles (e.g., =C2=A0reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measur=
ement can
 start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based wh=
ich can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other OAM methods.<=
u>


















GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol tha=
t can generate a test probe from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SR=
v6 supports multicast) is as simple as you present. If an operator
 needs to monitor the performance of the SR policy used by data packets, IO=
AM can be applied to data packets. If the operator wants to explore a polic=
y that is not used for data traffic, I imagine IOAM can be added to a test =
packet of the existing OAM protocol,
 e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?


=C2=A0


HS2>> For the first point: I don=E2=80=99t thi=
nk a protocol is needed here. If one wants to test the path a->b->c-&=
gt;d->e, he doesn=E2=80=99t need to find a user packet on that path to c=
arry IOAM
 (there could be no such packet at all). Instead, he can generate a probe p=
acket with an SRH for the path and use the probe packet to carry IOAM. At t=
he path end, it simply extracts and exports the IOAM data using the mechani=
sm defined for IOAM and drops the
 probe packet. =C2=A0


For the second point: I don=E2=80=99t think ICMP can=
 achieve what IOAM can do. IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data =
it can collect. Moreover, the proposal can be easily extended
 to support other kinds of OAM methods. One just carry it in UDP payload us=
ing different port. No need to worry about the size if such info has to be =
carried in EH TLV.






















options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, witho=
ut needing to worry about the extension header issue. =C2=A0<=
/p>









GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








=C2=A0 =C2=A0In terms of the classification given=







=C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change=C2=A0that?

=C2=A0


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for=
 active measurement because it=E2=80=99s not included in a user packet.











=C2=A0


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very w=
elcome. I=E2=80=99d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in =
scope and should be adopted by the working group.=C2=A0 If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/<=
/p>

=C2=A0


Thank you very much!


=C2=A0


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring





































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From: Haoyu Song 
To: Greg Mirsky 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Greg,

Sure, SRv6 is IPv6 but SRv6 doesn't equal to IPv6. If you define IOAM in IP=
v6, then what's its behavior in SRv6? Shall it be applied on every node or =
every SR node? But the more fundamental issue is that I don't think putting=
 all of such things in EH TLVs is a good idea. All of the discussions aroun=
d this which you are also very familiar make me think we should avoid it if=
 we can.

Best,
Haoyu
From: Greg Mirsky 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:03 PM
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
I'm surprised that you suggest an alternative to the IPv6 way of collecting=
 IOAM data. SRv6 must use all of IPv6 OAM. Would you agree? In some rare ca=
ses, SRv6-specific extensions to IPv6 OAMAs for the limited amount of infor=
mation that can be collected using IPv6 extension headers, IOAM Direct Expo=
rt,=
 or the Hybrid Two-step provide the solution. Both solve this problem by separa=
ting the generation of the IOAM data set from the collection and transport.=
 You are well-familiar with both drafts.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the info. I'd like to clarify this work means to use the standar=
dized IOAM options to support active measurement, so it's fair to say we us=
e IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement. Another point I'd like to mention is=
 that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SRv6 s=
pecifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, and i=
t means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.

In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv6 networks prevail, it'=
s natural to use the traffic steering feature for probing and measurements =
as well. If we have a unified method to cover as many techniques as possibl=
e, we can imagine new techniques can also be introduced easily. Without nee=
ding to set up any sessions and maintain any states, the controller can inj=
ect probing packets from any node, steer them on any path, terminate them a=
t any node, and collect any data we like. Such in-network measurement doesn=
't need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be used for traffic engineer=
ing (e.g., evaluating different paths at background) and for gray failure d=
etection and prevention.

I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility, and great application =
potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constructive suggestions to i=
mprove it.

Thanks!
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
now, without in-lining my notes.
It appears that you propose not to use draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, y=
our proposal cannot be referred to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-ins=
pired, IOAMish. As a result, a node supporting standardized IOAM would not =
understand your probe packet without an SW upgrade. In my book, that's a ne=
w protocol.
In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger Geib, where combining the defined techn=
iques of steering test probes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of usef=
ul information about a network:

  *   RFC 8403
  *   draft-ietf-ippm-connectivity-monitoring

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg, please see Inline

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined =
below under the GIM2>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding=
 the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.

HS>> Let's give a few features of our proposal: (1) it's session-less and w=
e don't need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs for a return=
 path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely determined by =
the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and poten=
tially other OAM methods.
GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe from =
an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as simp=
le as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of the S=
R policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the =
operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I ima=
gine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g.,=
 ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?

HS2>> For the first point: I don't think a protocol is needed here. If one =
wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he doesn't need to find a user packet=
 on that path to carry IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instead=
, he can generate a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe=
 packet to carry IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the =
IOAM data using the mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet.
For the second point: I don't think ICMP can achieve what IOAM can do. IOAM=
 is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. Moreover, the p=
roposal can be easily extended to support other kinds of OAM methods. One j=
ust carry it in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry about th=
e size if such info has to be carried in EH TLV.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because i=
t's not included in a user packet.

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--_000_BY3PR13MB4787B727C76FE5B767E952049A229BY3PR13MB4787namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Greg,


 


Sure, SRv6 is IPv6 but SRv6 doesn’t equal to I=
Pv6. If you define IOAM in IPv6, then what’s its behavior in SRv6? Sh=
all it be applied on every node or every SR node? But the more fundamental =
issue is that I don’t think putting all of such
 things in EH TLVs is a good idea. All of the discussions around this which=
 you are also very familiar make me think we should avoid it if we can.



 


Best,


Haoyu




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com&g=
t; 

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:03 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 




Hi Haoyu,




I'm surprised that you suggest an alternative to the=
 IPv6 way of collecting IOAM data. SRv6 must use all of IPv6 OAM. Would you=
 agree? In some rare cases, SRv6-specific extensions to IPv6 OAMAs for the =
limited amount of information that
 can be collected using IPv6 extension headers, 
IOAM Direct Export, or the 
Hybrid Two-step provide the solution. Both solve this problem by separa=
ting the generation of the IOAM data set from the collection and transport.=
 You are well-familiar with both drafts.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wr=
ote:










Hi Greg,


 


Thanks for the info. I’d like to clarify this work means to =
use the standardized IOAM options to support active measurement, so it̵=
7;s fair to say we use IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement.
 Another point I’d like to mention is that 
draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SR=
v6 specifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, a=
nd it means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.


 


In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv6 networks pre=
vail, it’s natural to use the traffic steering feature for probing an=
d measurements as well. If we have a unified
 method to cover as many techniques as possible, we can imagine new techniq=
ues can also be introduced easily. Without needing to set up any sessions a=
nd maintain any states, the controller can inject probing packets from any =
node, steer them on any path, terminate
 them at any node, and collect any data we like. Such in-network measuremen=
t doesn’t need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be used for tra=
ffic engineering (e.g., evaluating different paths at background) and for g=
ray failure detection and prevention.
   


 


I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility, and great app=
lication potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constructive suggest=
ions to improve it.


 


Thanks!


Haoyu  


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 










Hi Haoyu,




now, without in-lining my notes.






It appears that you propose not to use

draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, your proposal cannot be referr=
ed to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-inspired, IOAMish. As a result, =
a node supporting standardized IOAM would not understand your probe packet =
without an SW upgrade. In my book,
 that's a new protocol.






In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger
 Geib, where combining the defined techniques of steering test p=
robes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of useful information about a n=
etwork:







Regards,






Greg












 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi Greg, please see Inline


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes =
in-lined below under the GIM2>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
; wrote:










Hi Greg,



 


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.



 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. =
As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active mea=
surement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to u=
se an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;


 


HS>> Let’s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=
’s session-less and we don’t need assign any roles (e.g.,  =
;reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measurement can
 start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based wh=
ich can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other OAM methods.<=
o:p>


















GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a t=
est probe from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multic=
ast) is as simple as you present. If an operator
 needs to monitor the performance of the SR policy used by data packets, IO=
AM can be applied to data packets. If the operator wants to explore a polic=
y that is not used for data traffic, I imagine IOAM can be added to a test =
packet of the existing OAM protocol,
 e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?


 


HS2>> For the first point: I don’t think a protocol is=
 needed here. If one wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he d=
oesn’t need to find a user packet on that path to carry IOAM
 (there could be no such packet at all). Instead, he can generate a probe p=
acket with an SRH for the path and use the probe packet to carry IOAM. At t=
he path end, it simply extracts and exports the IOAM data using the mechani=
sm defined for IOAM and drops the
 probe packet.  


For the second point: I don’t think ICMP can achieve what IO=
AM can do. IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. =
Moreover, the proposal can be easily extended
 to support other kinds of OAM methods. One just carry it in UDP payload us=
ing different port. No need to worry about the size if such info has to be =
carried in EH TLV.






















options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:<=
o:p>








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1=
.








Does your proposal change that?


 


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measur=
ement because it’s not included in a user packet.











 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring










































--_000_BY3PR13MB4787B727C76FE5B767E952049A229BY3PR13MB4787namp_--


From nobody Fri Jan 28 19:44:36 2022
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From: Tianran Zhou 
To: Haoyu Song , Greg Mirsky 
CC: "spring@ietf.org" , IETF IPPM WG 
Thread-Topic: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Hi Haoyu and Greg,

I think we are getting clear, the discussion falls into two points:
1. new protocol vs reuse existing protocol
2. IPv6 EH vs UDP

Best,
Tianran

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoyu Song
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 4:10 AM
To: Greg Mirsky 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Greg,

Sure, SRv6 is IPv6 but SRv6 doesn't equal to IPv6. If you define IOAM in IP=
v6, then what's its behavior in SRv6? Shall it be applied on every node or =
every SR node? But the more fundamental issue is that I don't think putting=
 all of such things in EH TLVs is a good idea. All of the discussions aroun=
d this which you are also very familiar make me think we should avoid it if=
 we can.

Best,
Haoyu
From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:03 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
I'm surprised that you suggest an alternative to the IPv6 way of collecting=
 IOAM data. SRv6 must use all of IPv6 OAM. Would you agree? In some rare ca=
ses, SRv6-specific extensions to IPv6 OAMAs for the limited amount of infor=
mation that can be collected using IPv6 extension headers, IOAM Direct Expo=
rt,=
 or the Hybrid Two-step provide the solution. Both solve this problem by separa=
ting the generation of the IOAM data set from the collection and transport.=
 You are well-familiar with both drafts.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the info. I'd like to clarify this work means to use the standar=
dized IOAM options to support active measurement, so it's fair to say we us=
e IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement. Another point I'd like to mention is=
 that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SRv6 s=
pecifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, and i=
t means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.

In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv6 networks prevail, it'=
s natural to use the traffic steering feature for probing and measurements =
as well. If we have a unified method to cover as many techniques as possibl=
e, we can imagine new techniques can also be introduced easily. Without nee=
ding to set up any sessions and maintain any states, the controller can inj=
ect probing packets from any node, steer them on any path, terminate them a=
t any node, and collect any data we like. Such in-network measurement doesn=
't need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be used for traffic engineer=
ing (e.g., evaluating different paths at background) and for gray failure d=
etection and prevention.

I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility, and great application =
potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constructive suggestions to i=
mprove it.

Thanks!
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
now, without in-lining my notes.
It appears that you propose not to use draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, y=
our proposal cannot be referred to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-ins=
pired, IOAMish. As a result, a node supporting standardized IOAM would not =
understand your probe packet without an SW upgrade. In my book, that's a ne=
w protocol.
In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger Geib, where combining the defined techn=
iques of steering test probes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of usef=
ul information about a network:

  *   RFC 8403
  *   draft-ietf-ippm-connectivity-monitoring

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg, please see Inline

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined =
below under the GIM2>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding=
 the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.

HS>> Let's give a few features of our proposal: (1) it's session-less and w=
e don't need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs for a return=
 path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely determined by =
the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and poten=
tially other OAM methods.
GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe from =
an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as simp=
le as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of the S=
R policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the =
operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I ima=
gine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g.,=
 ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?

HS2>> For the first point: I don't think a protocol is needed here. If one =
wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he doesn't need to find a user packet=
 on that path to carry IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instead=
, he can generate a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe=
 packet to carry IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the =
IOAM data using the mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet.
For the second point: I don't think ICMP can achieve what IOAM can do. IOAM=
 is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. Moreover, the p=
roposal can be easily extended to support other kinds of OAM methods. One j=
ust carry it in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry about th=
e size if such info has to be carried in EH TLV.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because i=
t's not included in a user packet.

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--_000_92572d9dd6b545c8993a9945f2e51f97huaweicom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Hi Haoyu and Greg,


 


I think we are getting=
 clear, the discussion falls into two points:


1. new protocol vs reu=
se existing protocol


2. IPv6 EH vs UDP=



 


Best,


Tianran


 






From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] =
On Behalf Of
Haoyu Song

Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 4:10 AM

To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6






 


Hi Greg,


 


Sure, SRv6 is IPv6 but SRv6 doesn’t equal to I=
Pv6. If you define IOAM in IPv6, then what’s its behavior in SRv6? Sh=
all it be applied on every node or every SR node? But the more fundamental =
issue is that I don’t think putting all of such
 things in EH TLVs is a good idea. All of the discussions around this which=
 you are also very familiar make me think we should avoid it if we can.



 


Best,


Haoyu




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:03 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu=
.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 




Hi Haoyu,




I'm surprised that you suggest an alternative to the=
 IPv6 way of collecting IOAM data. SRv6 must use all of IPv6 OAM. Would you=
 agree? In some rare cases, SRv6-specific extensions to IPv6 OAMAs for the =
limited amount of information that
 can be collected using IPv6 extension headers, 
IOAM Direct Export, or the 
Hybrid Two-step provide the solution. Both solve this problem by separa=
ting the generation of the IOAM data set from the collection and transport.=
 You are well-familiar with both drafts.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wr=
ote:










Hi Greg,


 


Thanks for the info. I’d like to clarify this work means to =
use the standardized IOAM options to support active measurement, so it̵=
7;s fair to say we use IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement.
 Another point I’d like to mention is that 
draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SR=
v6 specifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, a=
nd it means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.


 


In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv6 networks pre=
vail, it’s natural to use the traffic steering feature for probing an=
d measurements as well. If we have a unified
 method to cover as many techniques as possible, we can imagine new techniq=
ues can also be introduced easily. Without needing to set up any sessions a=
nd maintain any states, the controller can inject probing packets from any =
node, steer them on any path, terminate
 them at any node, and collect any data we like. Such in-network measuremen=
t doesn’t need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be used for tra=
ffic engineering (e.g., evaluating different paths at background) and for g=
ray failure detection and prevention.
   


 


I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility, and great app=
lication potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constructive suggest=
ions to improve it.


 


Thanks!


Haoyu  


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 










Hi Haoyu,




now, without in-lining my notes.






It appears that you propose not to use

draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, your proposal cannot be referr=
ed to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-inspired, IOAMish. As a result, =
a node supporting standardized IOAM would not understand your probe packet =
without an SW upgrade. In my book,
 that's a new protocol.






In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger
 Geib, where combining the defined techniques of steering test p=
robes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of useful information about a n=
etwork:







Regards,






Greg












 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi Greg, please see Inline


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes =
in-lined below under the GIM2>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
; wrote:










Hi Greg,



 


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.



 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. =
As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active mea=
surement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to u=
se an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;


 


HS>> Let’s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=
’s session-less and we don’t need assign any roles (e.g.,  =
;reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measurement can
 start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based wh=
ich can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other OAM methods.<=
o:p>


















GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a t=
est probe from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multic=
ast) is as simple as you present. If an operator
 needs to monitor the performance of the SR policy used by data packets, IO=
AM can be applied to data packets. If the operator wants to explore a polic=
y that is not used for data traffic, I imagine IOAM can be added to a test =
packet of the existing OAM protocol,
 e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?


 


HS2>> For the first point: I don’t think a protocol is=
 needed here. If one wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he d=
oesn’t need to find a user packet on that path to carry IOAM
 (there could be no such packet at all). Instead, he can generate a probe p=
acket with an SRH for the path and use the probe packet to carry IOAM. At t=
he path end, it simply extracts and exports the IOAM data using the mechani=
sm defined for IOAM and drops the
 probe packet.  


For the second point: I don’t think ICMP can achieve what IO=
AM can do. IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. =
Moreover, the proposal can be easily extended
 to support other kinds of OAM methods. One just carry it in UDP payload us=
ing different port. No need to worry about the size if such info has to be =
carried in EH TLV.






















options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:<=
o:p>








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1=
.








Does your proposal change that?


 


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measur=
ement because it’s not included in a user packet.











 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring










































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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Segment Routing Policy Architecture
        Authors         : Clarence Filsfils
                          Ketan Talaulikar
                          Daniel Voyer
                          Alex Bogdanov
                          Paul Mattes
	Filename        : draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-16.txt
	Pages           : 39
	Date            : 2022-01-28

Abstract:
   Segment Routing (SR) allows a headend node to steer a packet flow
   along any path.  Intermediate per-path states are eliminated thanks
   to source routing.  The headend node steers a flow into an SR Policy.
   The packets steered into an SR Policy carry an ordered list of
   segments associated with that SR Policy.  This document details the
   concepts of SR Policy and steering into an SR Policy.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy/

There is also an htmlized version available at:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-16

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-16


Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts



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Hi Matthew,

Thanks for your detailed review and please find responses inline below.

Also, we've posted an updated version to address your comments. Request you
to please check and let us know your feedback.
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-16


On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 5:21 PM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB) <
matthew.bocci@nokia.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this draft.
>
> The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or routing-related
>
> drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG review, and
>
> sometimes on special request. The purpose of the review is to provide
>
> assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing
>
> Directorate, please see
>
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>
>
>
> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the Routing ADs, it
>
> would be helpful if you could consider them along with any other IETF
>
> Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve them through
>
> discussion or by updating the draft.
>
>
>
> Document: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-14
>
> Reviewer: Matthew Bocci
>
> Review Date: 28 January 2022
>
> Intended Status: Standards Track
>
>
>
> Summary:
>
>
>
> In general, this is a well written document. Thank you.
>
>
>
> However, I have some minor concerns about this
>
> document that I think should be resolved before publication. This mostly
> revolve around
>
> the clarity of the document and the use (or lack thereof) of RFC2119
> language.
>
>
>
> Comments:
>
>
>
> Major Issues: No major issues found
>
>
>
> Minor Issues:
>
>
>
> 1) This is a standards track document, but in general I found that clear
> specification language
>
> is missing. For example, in section 2.3: "A headend may be.." Should this
> be "A headend MAY be..."?
>
> There are many other cases like this where MUST/SHOULD/MAY would be better
> used rather than
>
> 'is' or 'can'.
>

KT> Ack. Fixed in some places and please let us know if we've missed any.


>
>
> 2) The references to control planes for provisioning and maintaining SR
> Policies are only
>
> informational, but they are referred to in a manner in the text that I
> read as normative
>
> (although the language is not always clear). For example, in section 2.5:
> "When signaling
>
> is via PCEP..." and then the paragraph refers to an informative reference
> to the
>
> PCE draft for the SR policy control plane. Given that this is a standards
> track architecture
>
> document, it would be much better to be clear about what the normative
> parts of the
>
> architecture are. If these parts are not normative (for example even if I
> use BGP it is not
>
> mandatory to use it according to a particular specification) then please
> be explicit
>
> and use 'MAY' or 'SHOULD'.
>

KT> Given that this is an architecture document, it describes the
architecture and not really the protocol mechanisms. This is in line with
other SPRING documents. The normative language for the BGP mechanism is in
the IDR document. The informative references, in this document, to those
protocol mechanisms are only to give a better reference/info to the reader.


>
>
> 3) Section 2.2: Candidate Path and Segment List. This section describes a
> hierarchical
>
> relationship between composite candidate paths, SR Policies, candidate
> paths, and segment lists.
>
> It would be much clearer if you could provide a diagram illustrating this
> hierarchy.
>

KT> The sec 2.13 illustrates this. We will add a forward reference to it in
Sec 2.2.


>
>
> 3) Terminology section. Since this draft
>
> is really the overall guide to all things SR Policy, it would really help
> to include a
>
> terminology section summarising  new terms and acronyms.
>

KT> The document currently describes the constructs in the flow. A
terminology section would just end up repeating the text up front and
without proper context. I prefer to keep the current structure. If there is
any specific terminology that you believe is better dealt with in the
Terminology section, please let us know.


>
>
>
>
> Nits:
>
>
>
> 1) The definite/indefinite article ('the', 'a', etc) is missing from the
> text in many places.
>
> I would suggest going through the text carefully and correcting these
> issues.
>

KT> Ack. Fixed in a few places. Please let us know if any others were
missed out.


>
>
> 2) Section 2.13:
>
>
>
> In the information model:
>
>
>
> SR policy POL1 
>
>         Candidate-path CP1 
>    100:1.1.1.1, discriminator = 1>
>
>              Preference 200
>
>              Priority 10
>
>              Weight W1, SID-List1 
>
>              Weight W2, SID-List2 
>
>                         ^^^^^^^^^
>
>
>
> These are referred to as segment lists in the main text, so maybe you
> should align the
>
> terminology.
>

KT> Ack. Fixed.


>
>
> Section 4: Segment Types.
>
> Type A: SR-MPLS Label: "...Additionally, reserved labels..." These are now
> commonly
>
> referred to in MPLS as "special purpose labels".
>
>
>

KT> Ack. Fixed.

Thanks,
Ketan

--000000000000569bea05d6b1e270
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Matthew,

Thanks for=
 your detailed review and please find responses inline below.
Also, we've posted an updated version to address your comme=
nts. Request you to please check and let us know your feedback.
<=
a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-r=
outing-policy-16" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-16
=



On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 5:21 PM Bocci, Matthew (Nokia - GB)=
 <matthew.b=
occi@nokia.com> wrote:











Hello,


=C2=A0


I have been selected as the Routing Directorate revi=
ewer for this draft.


The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing =
or routing-related


drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG =
review, and


sometimes on special request. The purpose of the rev=
iew is to provide


assistance to the Routing ADs. For more information =
about the Routing


Directorate, please see


http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wik=
i/RtgDir


=C2=A0


Although these comments are primarily for the use of=
 the Routing ADs, it


would be helpful if you could consider them along wi=
th any other IETF


Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to r=
esolve them through


discussion or by updating the draft.

=C2=A0


Document: draft-ietf-spring-segment-routing-policy-1=
4


Reviewer: Matthew Bocci


Review Date: 28 January 2022


Intended Status: Standards Track


=C2=A0


Summary: 


=C2=A0


In general, this is a well written document. Thank y=
ou. 



=C2=A0


However, I have some minor concerns about this


document that I think should be resolved before publ=
ication. This mostly revolve around



the clarity of the document and the use (or lack the=
reof) of RFC2119 language.



=C2=A0


Comments:


=C2=A0


Major Issues: No major issues found

=C2=A0


Minor Issues:


=C2=A0


1) This is a standards track document, but in genera=
l I found that clear specification language


is missing. For example, in section 2.3: "A hea=
dend may be.." Should this be "A headend MAY be..."?



There are many other cases like this where MUST/SHOU=
LD/MAY would be better used rather than


'is' or 'can'.

KT> Ack. Fixed in some places and please let =
us know if we've missed any.
=C2=A0
 


=C2=A0


2) The references to control planes for provisioning=
 and maintaining SR Policies are only



informational, but they are referred to in a manner =
in the text that I read as normative


(although the language is not always clear). For exa=
mple, in section 2.5: "When signaling



is via PCEP..." and then the paragraph refers t=
o an informative reference to the


PCE draft for the SR policy control plane. Given tha=
t this is a standards track architecture


document, it would be much better to be clear about =
what the normative parts of the



architecture are. If these parts are not normative (=
for example even if I use BGP it is not


mandatory to use it according to a particular specif=
ication) then please be explicit


and use 'MAY' or 'SHOULD'.
=


KT> Given that this is an archite=
cture document, it describes the architecture and not really the protocol m=
echanisms. This is in line with other SPRING documents. The normative langu=
age for the BGP mechanism is in the IDR document. The informative reference=
s, in this document, to those protocol mechanisms are only to give a better=
 reference/info to the reader.=C2=A0
=C2=A0


=C2=A0


3) Section 2.2: Candidate Path and Segment List. Thi=
s section describes a hierarchical


relationship between composite candidate paths, SR P=
olicies, candidate paths, and segment lists.


It would be much clearer if you could provide a diag=
ram illustrating this hierarchy.

KT> The sec 2.13 illustrates this. We will add a forward reference=
 to it in Sec 2.2.
=C2=A0
<=
/u>


=C2=A0


3) Terminology section. Since this draft


is really the overall guide to all things SR Policy,=
 it would really help to include a



terminology section summarising=C2=A0 new terms and =
acronyms.

KT> The docume=
nt currently describes the constructs in the flow. A terminology section wo=
uld just end up repeating the text up front and without proper context. I p=
refer to keep the current structure. If there is any specific terminology t=
hat you believe is better dealt with in the Terminology section, please let=
 us know.
=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


Nits:


=C2=A0


1) The definite/indefinite article ('the', &=
#39;a', etc) is missing from the text in many places.



I would suggest going through the text carefully and=
 correcting these issues.

K=
T> Ack. Fixed in a few places. Please let us know if any others were mis=
sed out.
=C2=A0


=C2=A0


2) Section 2.13:


=C2=A0


In the information model:


=C2=A0


=
SR policy POL1 <headend =3D H1, color =3D 1, endpoint =3D E1><=
u>


=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Candidate-path CP1 <protocol-=
origin =3D 20, originator =3D


=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 100:1.1.1.1, discriminator =3D 1>


=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Pr=
eference 200


=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Pr=
iority 10


=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We=
ight W1, SID-List1 <SID11...SID1i>


=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 We=
ight W2, SID-List2 <SID21...SID2j>


=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ^^^^^^^^^


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 


These are referred to as segment lists in the main t=
ext, so maybe you should align the


terminology.

KT> Ack. Fixed.
=C2=A0


=C2=A0


Section 4: Segment Types.


Type A: SR-MPLS Label: "...Additionally, reserv=
ed labels..." These are now commonly



referred to in MPLS as "special purpose labels&=
quot;.


=C2=A0

<=
/div>
KT> Ack. Fixed.

Thanks,
Ket=
an
=C2=A0


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References:   <97ee51feb17c4bcc84bc575768c06c3e@huawei.com>  
In-Reply-To: 
From: Gyan Mishra 
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 12:40:31 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: Greg Mirsky , IETF IPPM WG ,  Tianran Zhou ,  "spring@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4d55905d6d02a91"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm]  Active OAM in SRv6
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--000000000000c4d55905d6d02a91
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Hi Haoyu

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 1:42 PM Haoyu Song  wrote=
:

> Hi Gyan,
>
>
>
> Thank you for your comments! Please see inline for response marked with
> [HS]
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Haoyu
>
>
>
> *From:* Gyan Mishra 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:03 PM
> *To:* Tianran Zhou 
> *Cc:* Greg Mirsky ; Haoyu Song <
> haoyu.song@futurewei.com>; IETF IPPM WG ; spring@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu
>
>
>
> I think it would be good to identify the problem statement and gap with
> existing IPPM WG STAMP, TWAMP PM technologies and why they cannot be
> utilized or fall short in what you are trying to achieve with Active OAM =
in
> SRv6.
>
>
>
> [HS] My understanding is that STAMP/TWAMP are for end-to-end measurements=
,
> here we want to collect data from every node and every link on any path,
> without needing to set up any sessions. So the scope and coverage are
> different.
>
>  Gyan> Understood.  STAMP/TWAMP can be used as well to collect from every
> node as well.
>
> In-situ IOAM data packets is already possible with SRv6 as mentioned as
> this draft mentions below as normative reference.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16
> 
>
>
>
> [HS] There=E2=80=99s no accepted solution on how to support IOAM in SRv6 =
yet. Our
> proposal aims to provide such a solution, and (1) the solution avoids the
> issues on encapsulating the IOAM trace in EHs and (2) it=E2=80=99s extens=
ible to
> include OAM methods beyond IOAM.
>
>  Gyan> IPPM WG can speak to this document which has been adopted and been
> developed since 2016 and provides in-situ OAM as you desire and supports
> Segment Routing SRv6 as well as other encapsulations.
>
> This draft as well mentioned as normative reference draft below provides
> OAM ping and traceroute with SRH O flag to SRv6 PGM endpoints and SID lis=
t
> tracing capabilities very handy for troubleshooting.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-1
> 
> 3
>
>
>
> [HS] This is for in-band OAM for SRv6 user traffic and it only works for
> triggering postcard exports (i.e., don=E2=80=99t allow the packet to carr=
y data).
> Our proposal support all the IOAM options and more important, it=E2=80=99=
s an
> active method which means one can generate and inject probing packets to
> cover arbitrary paths by crafting an SRH.
>
>  Gyan> Understood
>
> This draft as well also mentioned as normative reference draft below
> provides in-situ IOAM for OAM and PM information can be piggybacked in da=
ta
> packets in SRH TLV SRv6 PGM SIF function SRv6.TLV recording the operation=
al
> and telemetry info in the data packets.
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ali-spring-ioam-srv6-05
> 
>
>
>
> [HS] This draft proposes to encapsulate IOAM in SRH TLV. Due to the
> overhead concern (IOAM trace could be large) and other issues related to
> EH, I don=E2=80=99t support such a solution.
>
>  Gyan> Understood.  Work is being done in 6MAN WG to address EH headers
> issues below as well as other drafts to make EH viable and reduce overhea=
d.
>

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-6man-eh-limits-00.txt


[HS] The three drafts you mentioned are all be reference in our draft and
> discussed. We think our use cases are different and our approach is more
> general and extensible to our use cases.
>
> Gyan> Understood.  I think if you can add some additional verbiage as to
> problem statement and why existing solutions drafts mentioned are not
> sufficient for your requirements.  Maybe listing out your requirements
> would help couple to your proposed solution.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Gyan
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:19 PM Tianran Zhou  40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
>
>
> The application is really interesting and useful.
>
> I am not sure if it is necessary to create a new OAM protocol at transpor=
t
> layer.
>
> IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension based on STAMP could be more
> practical.
>
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.t=
xt
> 
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Tianran
>
>
>
> *From:* ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM
> *To:* Haoyu Song 
> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
> *Subject:* Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
>
>
>
> Hi Haoyu,
>
> thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the
> concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft
>  it
> seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the
> right thing to do.
>
> Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song 
> wrote:
>
> Hi SPRING WG,
>
>
>
> Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary
> to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard
> to catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficien=
t
> planning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6
> In-situ Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement
> approach which can support different
>
> GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement
> protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an
> acronym). It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions,
> including the SRPM draft
> ,
> comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
>
> options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry
> about the extension header issue.
>
> GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
>
>    In terms of the classification given
>
>    in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
>
> Does your proposal change that?
>
>
>
> Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I=E2=80=99d l=
ike to
> know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopte=
d
> by the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work=
,
> please also let me know.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/
> 
>
>
>
> Thank you very much!
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Haoyu
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> 
>
> --
>
>
> 
>
> *Gyan Mishra*
>
> *Network Solutions Architect *
>
> *Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *
>
> *M 301 502-1347*
>
>
>
--=20



*Gyan Mishra*

*Network Solutions A**rchitect *

*Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com *



*M 301 502-1347*

--000000000000c4d55905d6d02a91
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi=C2=A0Haoyu

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 1:42 PM Haoyu S=
ong <haoyu.song@futurewei.co=
m> wrote:











Hi Gyan,


=C2=A0


Thank you for your comments! Please see inline for r=
esponse marked with [HS]


=C2=A0


Best,


Haoyu


=C2=A0




From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> 

Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:03 PM

To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>

Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com&g=
t;; IETF IPPM WG <ipp=
m@ietf.org>; sp=
ring@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




=C2=A0






Hi Haoyu=C2=A0






=C2=A0






I think it would be good to identify the problem sta=
tement and gap with existing IPPM WG STAMP, TWAMP PM technologies and why t=
hey cannot be utilized or fall short in what you are trying to=C2=A0achieve=
 with Active OAM in SRv6.=C2=A0






=C2=A0


[HS] My understanding is that STAMP/TWAMP are for en=
d-to-end measurements, here we want to collect data from every node and eve=
ry link on any path, without needing to set up any sessions. So the scope a=
nd coverage are different. =C2=A0


=C2=A0Gyan> Understood.=C2=A0=
 STAMP/TWAMP can be used as well to collect from every node as well.=







In-situ IOAM data packets is already possible with S=
Rv6 as mentioned as this draft mentions below as normative reference.






=C2=A0








https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16


=C2=A0


[HS] There=E2=80=99s no accepted solution on how to =
support IOAM in SRv6 yet. Our proposal aims to provide such a solution, and=
 (1) the solution avoids the issues on encapsulating the IOAM trace in EHs =
and (2) it=E2=80=99s extensible to include OAM methods
 beyond IOAM.




=C2=A0Gyan> IPPM WG can speak=
 to this document which has been adopted and been developed since 2016 and =
provides in-situ OAM as you desire and supports Segment Routing SRv6 as wel=
l as other encapsulations.






This draft as well mentioned as normative reference =
draft below provides OAM ping and traceroute with SRH O flag to SRv6 PGM en=
dpoints and SID list tracing capabilities very handy for troubleshooting.






=C2=A0









=C2=A0


[HS] This is for in-band OAM for SRv6 user traffic a=
nd it only works for triggering postcard exports (i.e., don=E2=80=99t allow=
 the packet to carry data). Our proposal support all the IOAM options and m=
ore important, it=E2=80=99s an active method which
 means one can generate and inject probing packets to cover arbitrary paths=
 by crafting an SRH.



=C2=A0Gyan> Understood=C2=A0<=
u>






This draft as well also mentioned as normative refer=
ence draft below provides in-situ IOAM for OAM and PM information can be pi=
ggybacked in data packets in SRH TLV SRv6 PGM SIF function SRv6.TLV recordi=
ng the operational and telemetry info
 in the data packets.









[HS] This draft proposes to encapsulate IOAM in SRH =
TLV. Due to the overhead concern (IOAM trace could be large) and other issu=
es related to EH, I don=E2=80=99t support such a solution.



=C2=A0Gyan> Understood.=C2=A0=
 Work is being done in 6MAN WG to address EH headers issues below as well a=
s other drafts to make EH viable and reduce overhead.
=






[HS] The three drafts you mentioned are all be refer=
ence in our draft and discussed. We think our use cases are different and o=
ur approach is more general and extensible to our use cases.<=
/p>





Gyan> Understood.=C2=A0 I thi=
nk if you can add some additional verbiage as to problem statement and why =
existing solutions drafts mentioned are not sufficient for your requirement=
s.=C2=A0 Maybe listing out your requirements would help couple to your prop=
osed solution.=C2=A0






Thanks=C2=A0










=C2=A0






Gyan=C2=A0






=C2=A0






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:19 PM Tianran Zhou <zh=
outianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:










Hi Haoyu,


=C2=A0


The application=
 is really interesting and useful.


I am not sure i=
f it is necessary to create a new OAM protocol at transport layer.


IMHO, a per hop=
/per segment extension based on STAMP could be more practical.


https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm=
-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt


=C2=A0


Best,=



Tianran =C2=A0<=
/span>










=C2=A0


From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6


=C2=A0








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to th=
e discussion. As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft=C2=A0it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do.=C2=A0






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>=
;> tag.






=C2=A0






Regards,






Greg






=C2=A0






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurew=
ei.com> wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


=C2=A0


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a =
network is necessary to detect =C2=A0gray failures, which are the key culpr=
it for poor QoS but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost. =C2=A0=C2=A0Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple =C2=A0active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the exist=
ing active measurement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more c=
onvenient to use an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.=
=C2=A0










options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, witho=
ut needing to worry about the extension header issue. =C2=A0<=
/p>









GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOA=
M as follows:








=C2=A0 =C2=A0In terms of the classification given=







=C2=A0 =C2=A0in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as=
 Hybrid Type 1.








Does your proposal change=C2=A0that?









=C2=A0


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very w=
elcome. I=E2=80=99d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in =
scope and should be adopted by the working group.=C2=A0 If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/<=
/p>

=C2=A0


Thank you very much!


=C2=A0


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<=
/u>














_______________________________________________

ippm mailing list

ippm@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm=











-- 




















=



Gyan Mishra


Network Solutions Architect=C2=A0


Email
gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



M 301 502-1347






=C2=A0

























-- 


--000000000000c4d55905d6d02a91--


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From: 
To: "'Huzhibo'" , , "'SPRING WG'" 
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Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
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[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected traffic be
directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced on all
different neighbor nodes.

 

[SLI3] Again, purely theoretical, it depends on the network topology, where
is the traffic coming from and number of neighbor nodes supporting the PF
behavior.  Traffic will follow SPT to the closest PF node: there could be
ECMP or not, the path to PF node could be well-sized or not. 

 

[HZB3]Sure,    I mean the same is true with other local FRR technologies,
even with IGP, and IGP shortest path can't guarantee that traffic will not
converge at certain node.

 

[SLI4] Yes and No, in IP/SR FRR solutions (not talking about midpoint
protection), when upstream nodes are converging, they converge on a path
that will forward the traffic properly to the destination. Exception is if
uloop forms but this is solved using uloop avoidance mechanism. Here the
problem is slightly different, as even with uloop avoidance, traffic may
still break.

 

I just want to re-emphasis my point which is your solution doesn't solve
completely the problem in partial deployment, so complete deployment is
necessary, so the gain is questionable and not really measurable.

 

 

 

 

 

From: Huzhibo  
Sent: vendredi 28 janvier 2022 10:57
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG'

Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Please see inline.

 

From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
[mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 4:58 PM
To: Huzhibo  >;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi

 

[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected traffic be
directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced on all
different neighbor nodes.

 

[SLI3] Again, purely theoretical, it depends on the network topology, where
is the traffic coming from and number of neighbor nodes supporting the PF
behavior.  Traffic will follow SPT to the closest PF node: there could be
ECMP or not, the path to PF node could be well-sized or not. 

 

[HZB3]Sure,    I mean the same is true with other local FRR technologies,
even with IGP, and IGP shortest path can't guarantee that traffic will not
converge at certain node.

 

From: Huzhibo  > 
Sent: vendredi 28 janvier 2022 02:56
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

 

 

From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
[mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 1:41 AM
To: Huzhibo  >;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                  --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the
previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than
the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If
all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result in
better convergence performance.

 

[SLI2]of course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the head
end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your mechanism,
it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. To get FRR
working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension (seems you are
mixing convergence and protection which are two different things: networks
are never converging in 50ms). 

---------->[HZB2]As the example you have mentioned,  Packet loss occurs only
when C converges, but B does not converge. 

                The packet loss time depends on the IGP convergence time and
is much shorter than the SR-TE rerouting time. 

                What I want to say is that even if some nodes you mentioned
do not support proxy forwarding, this solution is useful for speeding up
convergence.

 

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

 

--------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point,
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to
different PF nodes.

 

[SLI2] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of FRR
shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path that can
fit traffic. (See RFC7916).

So, letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any
control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates
congestion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow on,
you'll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not initially
flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain to customers).
Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic. 

---------->[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected
traffic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced on
all different neighbor nodes.

Second: All local FRR mechanisms take effect before convergence. In this
case, other nodes on the network still route to the faulty node. Can you
give an example?. FRR is performed when traffic does not need to be routed
to the neighboring node of the faulty node.

 

Stephane

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Huzhibo  > 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

 

From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com 
[mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: Huzhibo  >;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi,

 

Please find more inline.

 

From: Huzhibo  > 
Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  ;
bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING WG'
 >
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi slitkows :

 

Thanks for your comments, Please see inline.

 

Thanks

 

Zhibo Hu

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
slitkows.ietf@gmail.com  
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com  ; 'SPRING
WG'  >
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Hi 

 

I'm NOT supporting this draft for the following reasons:

 

1.	The WG already have a WG document which is dealing with this
problem, I don't think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions
for the same solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create
deployment issues as different vendors may pick different solutions.

-----> [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local
behaviors to implement SR-TE node protection.
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node
protection. 

 

It optimized the number of entries in the Context Table. This solution
solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and protects binding
segments.

 

[SLI] While I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion
below), this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion.
As there is already a WG doc, I don't see any reason for creating another
one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing readers.

 

2.	Adding protocols extensions adds complexity in the solution without
adding a strong value.

 

The document claims that "[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] .
may not work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not
supporting this solution.". While this is true, the proposed solution in
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same caveat
and requires all nodes in the network to support the solution.

 

Considering the following straight line network: A -B -C -D - E - F - G -H
and an SR policy from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the
extension to make the solution working, if one of the router doesn't support
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 

 

Then, there is no value compared to the timer-based solution of
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]

 

Authors of draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G
may have multiple upstream neighbors let's say F and F' and the solution
allows for F' to support the extension while F may not support, so the
solution will send the traffic to F'. Well yes, but this still requires all
routers upstream to F' to support this extension and maybe F is on the path
to F'. So, I don't think the argument is valid as it may possibly work
tactically depending on the network topology when we look at a small portion
of the network, but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to
upgrade all their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is
there. 

 

In addition, in term of traffic, forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the
failed node which wasn't initially on the path, could lead to traffic
congestion or high traffic peaks on links that were not sized to carry this
traffic. We could easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes
to this non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some
part of the same path before reaching the destination.

 

So these protocol extensions are bringing complexity for no value here.

---------> Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that
can perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This protocol
extension is necessary.

This solution does not require that all network nodes support this
extension, take the example you have mentioned :

but it still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extension
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous segment is
node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the node B finds the
PF

node F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C
and D do not support this protocol extension, this is not affected.

 

 

[SLI] Your statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first (routers
may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to execute.). B may
converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or D. no one knows and it's
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.

                    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster than SR-TE
rerouting, Therefore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the
previous example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than
the convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. If
all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result in
better convergence performance.

 

In addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend protocols,
but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required for node faults.
In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent loops.Moreover, it
cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can perform proxy
forwarding.

[SLI] Directing traffic to few nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have
serious traffic impact and at the end cause damages to traffic that has
nothing to do with the failure. It's the solution, but it has major
drawbacks from an operational point of view.

   --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point,
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance traffic to
different PF nodes.

 

3.	Regarding BSID, I'm not fan of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may
be hundreds or thousands of BSID on a node which again will create a lot of
burden in IGP. The proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING (see next comment).

 

Note that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in the
control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID handling is
orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. The forwarding
operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in details, we could not
expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups without any perf degradation.

-------> Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do
not need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing and
forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly coupled.

 

[SLI] Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and
forwarding aspects could be further described in
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that BSID is
interesting to solve.

   --------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of
it into the LSR.

 

 

SR-TE protection    

takes effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during normal
forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance degradation is
acceptable.

 

4.	The document is currently a bit borderline between SPRING and LSR as
it talks in good details about IGP protocol extensions. If it's a SPRING
doc, it should detail reqs for protocols but nothing beyond.

                ------->As you said, this document defines the detail
requests for IGP protocols

[SLI] No it goes beyond requirements and already talks about encoding: 

"For supporting binding SID proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called

   Binding Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and a

   list of segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS Hello

   (IIH) PDUs, LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs (CS-LSP)

   [RFC7356].

 

This is not a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to
be discussed in LSR not in SPRING.

--------->[HZB]Sure. We will consider whether we need to divest some of it
into the LSR.

 

 

 

 

 

Brgds,

 

Stephane

 

 

From: spring  > On
Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.com  
Sent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG  >
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call -
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

Dear WG,

 

This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending 27/01/2022, for
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwa
rding/

 

After review of the document please indicate support (or not) for WG
adoption of the document to the mailing list.

 

Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or lack thereof) as
this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support as this is not a vote.


 

If you are willing to work on or review the document, please state this
explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy level of
people in the working group willing to work on the document.

 

Thanks!

Bruno, Jim, Joel

____________________________________________________________________________
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[HZB2=
]First: This document does not require that all affected traffic be =
directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced =
on all different neighbor nodes.
=
 
[SLI3] Again, purely theoretical, =
it depends on the network topology, where is the traffic coming from and =
number of neighbor nodes supporting the PF behavior.  Traffic will =
follow SPT to the closest PF node: there could be ECMP or not, the path =
to PF node could be well-sized or not. 
 
[HZB3=
]Sure,    I mean the same is true with other local FRR =
technologies, even with IGP, and IGP shortest path can't guarantee that =
traffic will not converge at certain node.
 
[SLI4] Yes =
and No, in IP/SR FRR solutions (not talking about midpoint protection), =
when upstream nodes are converging, they converge on a path that will =
forward the traffic properly to the destination. Exception is if uloop =
forms but this is solved using uloop avoidance mechanism. Here the =
problem is slightly different, as even with uloop avoidance, traffic may =
still break.
 
I just want to re-emphasis my point which is your =
solution doesn’t solve completely the problem in partial =
deployment, so complete deployment is necessary, so the gain is =
questionable and not really measurable.
 
 
 
 
 
From: Huzhibo =
<huzhibo@huawei.com> 
Sent: vendredi 28 janvier 2022 =
10:57
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG =
adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Pleas=
e see inline.
=
 
From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 4:58 PM
To: =
Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi
 
[HZB2=
]First: This document does not require that all affected traffic be =
directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is still balanced =
on all different neighbor nodes.
=
 
[SLI3] Again, purely theoretical, =
it depends on the network topology, where is the traffic coming from and =
number of neighbor nodes supporting the PF behavior.  Traffic will =
follow SPT to the closest PF node: there could be ECMP or not, the path =
to PF node could be well-sized or not. 
 
[HZB3=
]Sure,    I mean the same is true with other local FRR =
technologies, even with IGP, and IGP shortest path can't guarantee that =
traffic will not converge at certain node.
 
From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> =

Sent: vendredi 28 janvier 2022 02:56
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
=
 
=
 
From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 1:41 AM
To: =
Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
[SLI] Your =
statement is purely theoretical and life in real networks is not =
theoretical. You cannot predict which router will converge first =
(routers may have different CPUs, may have different tasks to =
execute…). B may converge first maybe, but maybe it will be C or =
D… no one knows and it’s unpredictable. So at the end, if =
you want to guarantee the mechanism to work, all routers have to support =
the mechanism.
 &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;    --------->[HZB]IGP convergence is much faster =
than SR-TE rerouting, Therefo=
re, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous =
example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the =
convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not =
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. =
If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result =
in better convergence performance.
&n=
bsp;
[SLI2]o=
f course SR-TE will converge slower, I never discussed about the head =
end. My point:  If C is faster than B and C does not support your =
mechanism, it will drop traffic and your FRR is not guaranteed anymore. =
To get FRR working, no choice, all the nodes must support the extension =
(seems you are mixing convergence and protection which are two different =
things: networks are never converging in 50ms). 
-----=
----->[HZB2]As the example you have mentioned,  Packet loss =
occurs only when C converges, but B does not converge. =

 =
;            =
   The packet loss time depends on the IGP convergence =
time and is much shorter than the SR-TE rerouting time. =

 =
;            =
   What I want to say is that even if some nodes you =
mentioned do not support proxy forwarding, this solution is useful for =
speeding up convergence.
=
 
[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and =
at the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the =
failure. It’s the solution, but it has major drawbacks from an =
operational point of view.
 
-----=
---->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this document only =
filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same fault point, =
different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load balance =
traffic to different PF nodes.
=
 
[SLI2=
] The goal of TI-LFA is to try to keep the traffic on a path that has =
been sized properly (this is one of the key point of TI-LFA). History of =
FRR shown that this is important to constraint/steer FRR path on path =
that can fit traffic. (See RFC7916).
So, =
letting traffic going to any neighbor of the failed node without any =
control is wrong and may create more damages. When FRR traffic creates =
congestion on some links the protected traffic was not intended to flow =
on, you’ll start to impact and drop other traffic which was not =
initially flowing through the failed link/node (usually hard to explain =
to customers). Keeping control of FRR path is a very important topic. =

-----=
----->[HZB2]First: This document does not require that all affected =
traffic be directed to "one" neighbor node, and traffic is =
still balanced on all different neighbor nodes.
Secon=
d: All local FRR mechanisms take effect before convergence. In this =
case, other nodes on the network still route to the faulty node. Can you =
give an example?. FRR is performed when traffic does not need to be =
routed to the neighboring node of the faulty =
node.
=
 
Steph=
ane
=
 
=
 
 
=
 
=
 
 
 
From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> =

Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 12:49
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
Please find more =
inline.
=
 
=
 
From: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com [mailto:slitkows.ietf@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 4:54 PM
To: =
Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi,
 
Please find more =
inline.
 
From: Huzhibo <huzhibo@huawei.com> =

Sent: mercredi 26 janvier 2022 09:31
To: slitkows.ietf@gmail.com; bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi =
slitkows =
:
=
 
Thank=
s for your comments, Please see inline.
=
 
Thank=
s
=
 
Zhibo=
 Hu
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of slitkows.ietf@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 1:13 AM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; =
'SPRING WG' <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Hi 
 
I’m =
NOT supporting this draft for the following =
reasons:
 
  1. The WG already =
have a WG document which is dealing with this problem, I don’t =
think that WG should come with multiple documents/solutions for the same =
solution space as it may just confuse the industry and create deployment =
issues as different vendors may pick different =
solutions.
-----> =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] defines local behaviors =
to implement SR-TE node protection. =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding enhances SR-TE node =
protection. 
 =

It optimiz=
ed the number of entries in the Context Table. This =
solution solves the connectivity problem after IGP convergence, and =
protects binding segments.
 
[SLI] While =
I think your arguments are not completely valid (see discussion below), =
this has nothing to do with the one draft vs two drafts discussion. As =
there is already a WG doc, I don’t see any reason for creating =
another one except creating artificial work for the IETF and confusing =
readers.
 
  1. Adding protocols extensions adds =
complexity in the solution without adding a strong =
value.
 
The document claims that =
“[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] … may not =
work for some cases such as some of nodes in the network not supporting =
this solution.”. While this is true, the proposed solution in =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding has exactly the same =
caveat and requires all nodes in the network to support the =
solution.
 
Considering the following straight =
line network: A -B -C -D – E – F - G -H and an SR policy =
from A to H using SID_G, routers A to F have to support the extension to =
make the solution working, if one of the router doesn’t support =
the extension, traffic will be dropped. 
 
Then, there is no value compared to =
the timer-based solution of =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths]
 
Authors of =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding argued that G may have =
multiple upstream neighbors let’s say F and F’ and the =
solution allows for F’ to support the extension while F may not =
support, so the solution will send the traffic to F’. Well yes, =
but this still requires all routers upstream to F’ to support this =
extension and maybe F is on the path to F’. So, I don’t =
think the argument is valid as it may possibly work tactically depending =
on the network topology when we look at a small portion of the network, =
but when we look at the whole network, operator will have to upgrade all =
their nodes to support the extension to ensure the benefit is there. =

 
In addition, in term of traffic, =
forwarding traffic to a neighbor of the failed node which wasn’t =
initially on the path, could lead to traffic congestion or high traffic =
peaks on links that were not sized to carry this traffic. We could =
easily expect some traffic tromboning, where traffic goes to this =
non-natural neighbor of the failed node and then goes back over some =
part of the same path before reaching the =
destination.
 
So these protocol extensions are =
bringing complexity for no value here.
---------> =
Protocols extensions can accurately direct traffic to a node that can =
perform proxy forwarding and solve the problem that traffic cannot be =
forwarded to a proxy forwarding node after IGP convergence. This =
protocol extension is necessary.
This =
solution does not require that all network nodes support this extension, =
take the example you have mentioned :
but it =
still requires that all routers upstream to F' support this extension =
---> This description is inaccurate, assuming that the previous =
segment is node B, when node G fails. When the node B converges, the =
node B finds the PF
node =
F' adjacent to G, and can push the node Sid of the node F',Even if C and =
D do not support this protocol extension, this is not =
affected.
 
 
[SLI] Your statement is purely =
theoretical and life in real networks is not theoretical. You cannot =
predict which router will converge first (routers may have different =
CPUs, may have different tasks to execute…). B may converge first =
maybe, but maybe it will be C or D… no one knows and it’s =
unpredictable. So at the end, if you want to guarantee the mechanism to =
work, all routers have to support the mechanism.
 =
;            =
       --------->[HZB]IGP convergence =
is much faster than SR-TE rerouting, There=
fore, even if node B is slower than node C and node D in the previous =
example, the convergence time of the SR-TE path is far shorter than the =
convergence time of the SR-TE path. If some nodes in the network do not =
support the convergence, convergence may exceed 50 ms in some scenarios. =
If all nodes in the network support the convergence, That would result =
in better convergence performance.
 
In =
addition, the Hold timers solution mentioned in =
[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] does not extend =
protocols, but is also complex. In addition, slow deletion is required =
for node faults. In addition, loop prevention is implemented to prevent =
loops.Moreover, it cannot accurately direct traffic to a node that can =
perform proxy forwarding.
[SLI] Directing traffic to few =
nodes that could do proxy forwarding can have serious traffic impact and =
at the end cause damages to traffic that has nothing to do with the =
failure. It’s the solution, but it has major drawbacks from an =
operational point of view.
 =
;  --------->[HZB] Similar to the existing FRR mechanism, this =
document only filters out the nodes that do not support PF. For the same =
fault point, different remote nodes select different PF nodes and load =
balance traffic to different PF nodes.
 
  1. Regarding BSID, I’m not fan =
of advertising BSIDs in IGP as there may be hundreds or thousands of =
BSID on a node which again will create a lot of burden in IGP. The =
proposed way will have to be discussed in LSR, not in SPRING (see next =
comment).
 
Note =
that [I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] could also work =
with BSIDs as long as BSID information of failed node is available in =
the control-plane of PLRs by whatever mechanism. I think this BSID =
handling is orthogonal to the proxy-forwarding controlplane behavior. =
The forwarding operations for BSID will have to be discussed more in =
details, we could not expect all HW to be able to do 3 or 4 lookups =
without any perf degradation.
-------> =
Binding segments need to be exchanged only between neighbors and do not =
need to be flooded to the entire IGP domain. Therefore, binding segments =
do not exert pressure on IGP performance.The control-plane processing =
and forwarding-plane processing of the BSID are not strongly =
coupled.
 
[SLI] =
Control plane aspects of IGPs have to be discussed in LSR, not in =
SPRING. So please take the discussion to LSR for the control plane and =
forwarding aspects could be further described in  =
;[I-D.ietf-spring-segment-protection-sr-te-paths] if WGs agrees that =
BSID is interesting to solve.
 =
;  --------->[HZB]Sure. We =
will consider whether we need to divest some of it into the =
LSR.
 
 
SR-TE =
protection    
takes =
effect only from the time during a fault occurs to the TE path =
converges. Therefore, SR-TE protection does not take effect during =
normal forwarding,Compared with impaired connectivity, performance =
degradation is acceptable.
=
 
  1. The document is currently a bit =
borderline between SPRING and LSR as it talks in good details about IGP =
protocol extensions. If it’s a SPRING doc, it should detail reqs =
for protocols but nothing beyond.
 =
;          &=
nbsp;    ------->As you =
said, this document defines the detail requests for IGP =
protocols=

[SLI] No it goes beyond =
requirements and already talks about encoding: =

“For supporting binding SID =
proxy forwarding, a new IS-IS TLV, called
   Binding =
Segment TLV, is defined.  It contains a binding SID and =
a
   list of =
segments (SIDs).  This TLV may be advertised in IS-IS =
Hello
   (IIH) PDUs, =
LSPs, or in Circuit Scoped Link State PDUs =
(CS-LSP)
   =
[RFC7356].
 
This is not =
a requirement; this is an IS-IS solution description that has to be =
discussed in LSR not in SPRING.
-----=
---->[HZB]Sure. =
We =
will consider whether we need to divest some of it into the =
LSR.
 
 
=
 
 
 
Brgds,
 
Stephane
 
 
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> =
On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orange.comSent: jeudi 13 janvier 2022 11:19
To: SPRING WG =
<spring@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] WG adoption call - =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
 
Dear WG,
 
This message starts a 2 week WG adoption call, ending =
27/01/2022, for =
draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding
https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hu-spring-segment-routing-proxy-forwarding/
 
After review of the document please indicate support (or =
not) for WG adoption of the document to the mailing =
list.
 
Please also provide comments/reasons for your support (or =
lack thereof) as this is a stronger way to indicate your (non) support =
as this is not a vote.      =

 
If you are willing to work on or review the document, please =
state this explicitly. This gives the chairs an indication of the energy =
level of people in the working group willing to work on the =
document.
 
Thanks!
Bruno, Jim, Joel
________________________________________=
_________________________________________________________________________=
________
 
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doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies =
sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le =
signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles =
d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si =
ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may =
contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by =
law;
they should not be distributed, used or =
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If you have received this email in =
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you.

------=_NextPart_000_00E2_01D816AB.C7AAD530--


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Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Tianran,

Your summary is basically correct.
But for the first point, I don't think using UDP is a new protocol. And ext=
ending an existing protocol beyond its original scope in many cases is like=
 designing a new protocol.  The pros and cons all need to be carefully cons=
idered.

Best,
Haoyu


From: Tianran Zhou 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 7:44 PM
To: Haoyu Song ; Greg Mirsky 
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG 
Subject: RE: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu and Greg,

I think we are getting clear, the discussion falls into two points:
1. new protocol vs reuse existing protocol
2. IPv6 EH vs UDP

Best,
Tianran

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Haoyu Song
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 4:10 AM
To: Greg Mirsky >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Greg,

Sure, SRv6 is IPv6 but SRv6 doesn't equal to IPv6. If you define IOAM in IP=
v6, then what's its behavior in SRv6? Shall it be applied on every node or =
every SR node? But the more fundamental issue is that I don't think putting=
 all of such things in EH TLVs is a good idea. All of the discussions aroun=
d this which you are also very familiar make me think we should avoid it if=
 we can.

Best,
Haoyu
From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:03 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
I'm surprised that you suggest an alternative to the IPv6 way of collecting=
 IOAM data. SRv6 must use all of IPv6 OAM. Would you agree? In some rare ca=
ses, SRv6-specific extensions to IPv6 OAMAs for the limited amount of infor=
mation that can be collected using IPv6 extension headers, IOAM Direct Expo=
rt, or the Hybrid Two-step provide the solution. Both solve this problem by sepa=
rating the generation of the IOAM data set from the collection and transpor=
t. You are well-familiar with both drafts.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thanks for the info. I'd like to clarify this work means to use the standar=
dized IOAM options to support active measurement, so it's fair to say we us=
e IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement. Another point I'd like to mention is=
 that draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SRv6 s=
pecifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, and i=
t means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.

In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv6 networks prevail, it'=
s natural to use the traffic steering feature for probing and measurements =
as well. If we have a unified method to cover as many techniques as possibl=
e, we can imagine new techniques can also be introduced easily. Without nee=
ding to set up any sessions and maintain any states, the controller can inj=
ect probing packets from any node, steer them on any path, terminate them a=
t any node, and collect any data we like. Such in-network measurement doesn=
't need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be used for traffic engineer=
ing (e.g., evaluating different paths at background) and for gray failure d=
etection and prevention.

I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility, and great application =
potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constructive suggestions to i=
mprove it.

Thanks!
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
now, without in-lining my notes.
It appears that you propose not to use draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, y=
our proposal cannot be referred to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-ins=
pired, IOAMish. As a result, a node supporting standardized IOAM would not =
understand your probe packet without an SW upgrade. In my book, that's a ne=
w protocol.
In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger Geib, where combining the defined t=
echniques of steering test probes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of =
useful information about a network:

  *   RFC 8403
  *   draft-ietf-ippm-connectivity-monitoring

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg, please see Inline

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes in-lined =
below under the GIM2>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Greg,

Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding=
 the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.

HS>> Let's give a few features of our proposal: (1) it's session-less and w=
e don't need assign any roles (e.g.,  reflector); (2) no needs for a return=
 path. The measurement can start and end at any node (solely determined by =
the SRH); (3) udp-based which can support any existing IOAM modes and poten=
tially other OAM methods.
GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a test probe from =
an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multicast) is as simp=
le as you present. If an operator needs to monitor the performance of the S=
R policy used by data packets, IOAM can be applied to data packets. If the =
operator wants to explore a policy that is not used for data traffic, I ima=
gine IOAM can be added to a test packet of the existing OAM protocol, e.g.,=
 ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?

HS2>> For the first point: I don't think a protocol is needed here. If one =
wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he doesn't need to find a user packet=
 on that path to carry IOAM (there could be no such packet at all). Instead=
, he can generate a probe packet with an SRH for the path and use the probe=
 packet to carry IOAM. At the path end, it simply extracts and exports the =
IOAM data using the mechanism defined for IOAM and drops the probe packet.
For the second point: I don't think ICMP can achieve what IOAM can do. IOAM=
 is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. Moreover, the p=
roposal can be easily extended to support other kinds of OAM methods. One j=
ust carry it in UDP payload using different port. No need to worry about th=
e size if such info has to be carried in EH TLV.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measurement because i=
t's not included in a user packet.

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--_000_BY3PR13MB4787502E904309D44AECE31B9A259BY3PR13MB4787namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable











Tianran,


 


Your summary is basically correct.


But for the first point, I don’t think using U=
DP is a new protocol. And extending an existing protocol beyond its origina=
l scope in many cases is like designing a new protocol.  The pros and =
cons all need to be carefully considered.


 


Best,


Haoyu


 


 






From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com=
> 

Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 7:44 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>; Greg Mirsky <gre=
gimirsky@gmail.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: RE: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6






 


Hi Haoyu and Greg,


 


I think we are getting=
 clear, the discussion falls into two points:


1. new protocol vs reu=
se existing protocol


2. IPv6 EH vs UDP=



 


Best,


Tianran


 






From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Haoyu Song

Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2022 4:10 AM

To: Greg Mirsky <gregimi=
rsky@gmail.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6






 


Hi Greg,


 


Sure, SRv6 is IPv6 but SRv6 doesn’t equal to I=
Pv6. If you define IOAM in IPv6, then what’s its behavior in SRv6? Sh=
all it be applied on every node or every SR node? But the more fundamental =
issue is that I don’t think putting all of such
 things in EH TLVs is a good idea. All of the discussions around this which=
 you are also very familiar make me think we should avoid it if we can.



 


Best,


Haoyu




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Friday, January 28, 2022 12:03 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu=
.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPP=
M WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 




Hi Haoyu,




I'm surprised that you suggest an alternative to the=
 IPv6 way of collecting IOAM data. SRv6 must use all of IPv6 OAM. Would you=
 agree? In some rare cases, SRv6-specific extensions to IPv6 OAMAs for the =
limited amount of information that
 can be collected using IPv6 extension headers, 
IOAM Direct Export, or the 
Hybrid Two-step provide the solution. Both solve this problem by separa=
ting the generation of the IOAM data set from the collection and transport.=
 You are well-familiar with both drafts.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wr=
ote:










Hi Greg,


 


Thanks for the info. I’d like to clarify this work means to =
use the standardized IOAM options to support active measurement, so it̵=
7;s fair to say we use IOAM in SRv6 for active measurement.
 Another point I’d like to mention is that 
draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options is for IPv6 in general but not for SR=
v6 specifically. Moreover, it also use EH TLVs and we propose to use UDP, a=
nd it means to support in-band measurement for user traffic.


 


In my view, SRv6 is the way to steer traffic. If SRv6 networks pre=
vail, it’s natural to use the traffic steering feature for probing an=
d measurements as well. If we have a unified
 method to cover as many techniques as possible, we can imagine new techniq=
ues can also be introduced easily. Without needing to set up any sessions a=
nd maintain any states, the controller can inject probing packets from any =
node, steer them on any path, terminate
 them at any node, and collect any data we like. Such in-network measuremen=
t doesn’t need to involve end hosts like PING. It can be used for tra=
ffic engineering (e.g., evaluating different paths at background) and for g=
ray failure detection and prevention.
   


 


I hope the WG can see the simplicity, extensibility, and great app=
lication potential of the proposed scheme, and provide constructive suggest=
ions to improve it.


 


Thanks!


Haoyu  


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 6:17 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 










Hi Haoyu,




now, without in-lining my notes.






It appears that you propose not to use

draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-ipv6-options. Thus, your proposal cannot be referr=
ed to as IOAM in SRv6. At best, it is IOAM-inspired, IOAMish. As a result, =
a node supporting standardized IOAM would not understand your probe packet =
without an SW upgrade. In my book,
 that's a new protocol.






In closing, I'll reference two works by Ruediger
 Geib, where combining the defined techniques of steering test p=
robes with standard IOAM might reveal a lot of useful information about a n=
etwork:







Regards,






Greg












 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 5:44 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi Greg, please see Inline


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 2:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for your detailed reply. Please find my follow-up notes =
in-lined below under the GIM2>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 11:00 AM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
; wrote:










Hi Greg,



 


Thank you for your questions. Please see inline response.



 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 3:01 PM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. =
As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active mea=
surement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to u=
se an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;


 


HS>> Let’s give a few features of our proposal: (1) it=
’s session-less and we don’t need assign any roles (e.g.,  =
;reflector); (2) no needs for a return path. The measurement can
 start and end at any node (solely determined by the SRH); (3) udp-based wh=
ich can support any existing IOAM modes and potentially other OAM methods.<=
o:p>


















GIM2>> I don't think adding a protocol that can generate a t=
est probe from an arbitrary node to arbitrary targets (SRv6 supports multic=
ast) is as simple as you present. If an operator
 needs to monitor the performance of the SR policy used by data packets, IO=
AM can be applied to data packets. If the operator wants to explore a polic=
y that is not used for data traffic, I imagine IOAM can be added to a test =
packet of the existing OAM protocol,
 e.g., ICMP. Am I missing some of the requirements?


 


HS2>> For the first point: I don’t think a protocol is=
 needed here. If one wants to test the path a->b->c->d->e, he d=
oesn’t need to find a user packet on that path to carry IOAM
 (there could be no such packet at all). Instead, he can generate a probe p=
acket with an SRH for the path and use the probe packet to carry IOAM. At t=
he path end, it simply extracts and exports the IOAM data using the mechani=
sm defined for IOAM and drops the
 probe packet.  


For the second point: I don’t think ICMP can achieve what IO=
AM can do. IOAM is much more powerful in terms of the data it can collect. =
Moreover, the proposal can be easily extended
 to support other kinds of OAM methods. One just carry it in UDP payload us=
ing different port. No need to worry about the size if such info has to be =
carried in EH TLV.






















options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:<=
o:p>








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1=
.








Does your proposal change that?


 


HS>> In this particular case, IOAM is used for active measur=
ement because it’s not included in a user packet.











 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring










































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From: Haoyu Song 
To: Gyan Mishra 
CC: Greg Mirsky , IETF IPPM WG , Tianran Zhou , "spring@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6
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Subject: Re: [spring] [ippm]  Active OAM in SRv6
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Thanks Gyan!
In the next revision, I'll add more information on the requirements and com=
parisons with the other approaches.

Best,
Haoyu

From: Gyan Mishra 
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 9:41 AM
To: Haoyu Song 
Cc: Greg Mirsky ; IETF IPPM WG ; Tian=
ran Zhou ; spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 1:42 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi Gyan,

Thank you for your comments! Please see inline for response marked with [HS=
]

Best,
Haoyu

From: Gyan Mishra >
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:03 PM
To: Tianran Zhou >
Cc: Greg Mirsky >; Haoy=
u Song >; IETF IP=
PM WG >; spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu

I think it would be good to identify the problem statement and gap with exi=
sting IPPM WG STAMP, TWAMP PM technologies and why they cannot be utilized =
or fall short in what you are trying to achieve with Active OAM in SRv6.

[HS] My understanding is that STAMP/TWAMP are for end-to-end measurements, =
here we want to collect data from every node and every link on any path, wi=
thout needing to set up any sessions. So the scope and coverage are differe=
nt.
 Gyan> Understood.  STAMP/TWAMP can be used as well to collect from every n=
ode as well.
In-situ IOAM data packets is already possible with SRv6 as mentioned as thi=
s draft mentions below as normative reference.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16

[HS] There's no accepted solution on how to support IOAM in SRv6 yet. Our p=
roposal aims to provide such a solution, and (1) the solution avoids the is=
sues on encapsulating the IOAM trace in EHs and (2) it's extensible to incl=
ude OAM methods beyond IOAM.
 Gyan> IPPM WG can speak to this document which has been adopted and been d=
eveloped since 2016 and provides in-situ OAM as you desire and supports Seg=
ment Routing SRv6 as well as other encapsulations.
This draft as well mentioned as normative reference draft below provides OA=
M ping and traceroute with SRH O flag to SRv6 PGM endpoints and SID list tr=
acing capabilities very handy for troubleshooting.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-13

[HS] This is for in-band OAM for SRv6 user traffic and it only works for tr=
iggering postcard exports (i.e., don't allow the packet to carry data). Our=
 proposal support all the IOAM options and more important, it's an active m=
ethod which means one can generate and inject probing packets to cover arbi=
trary paths by crafting an SRH.
 Gyan> Understood
This draft as well also mentioned as normative reference draft below provid=
es in-situ IOAM for OAM and PM information can be piggybacked in data packe=
ts in SRH TLV SRv6 PGM SIF function SRv6.TLV recording the operational and =
telemetry info in the data packets.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ali-spring-ioam-srv6-05

[HS] This draft proposes to encapsulate IOAM in SRH TLV. Due to the overhea=
d concern (IOAM trace could be large) and other issues related to EH, I don=
't support such a solution.
 Gyan> Understood.  Work is being done in 6MAN WG to address EH headers iss=
ues below as well as other drafts to make EH viable and reduce overhead.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-herbert-6man-eh-limits-00.txt


[HS] The three drafts you mentioned are all be reference in our draft and d=
iscussed. We think our use cases are different and our approach is more gen=
eral and extensible to our use cases.
Gyan> Understood.  I think if you can add some additional verbiage as to pr=
oblem statement and why existing solutions drafts mentioned are not suffici=
ent for your requirements.  Maybe listing out your requirements would help =
couple to your proposed solution.
Thanks

Gyan

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:19 PM Tianran Zhou > wrote:
Hi Haoyu,

The application is really interesting and useful.
I am not sure if it is necessary to create a new OAM protocol at transport =
layer.
IMHO, a per hop/per segment extension based on STAMP could be more practica=
l.
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensions-03.txt=


Best,
Tianran

From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM
To: Haoyu Song >
Cc: spring@ietf.org; IETF IPPM WG >
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6

Hi Haoyu,
thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. As the co=
ncept of Active IOAM is introduced in the IPPM WG draft it seems to me like addi=
ng the IPPM WG community to the discussion is the right thing to do.
Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song > wrote:
Hi SPRING WG,

Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is necessary to=
 detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor QoS but hard to =
catch. SR provides an ideal mechanism, when working with some efficient pla=
nning algorithm, to achieve that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ=
 Active Measurement (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach w=
hich can support different
GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active measurement protoc=
ols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to use an acronym).=
 It appears to me that, for example, STAMP and its extensions, including th=
e SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.
options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to worry abo=
ut the extension header issue.
GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:
   In terms of the classification given
   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1.
Does your proposal change that?

Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to kno=
w your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should be adopted by =
the working group.  If you are interested in contributing to this work, ple=
ase also let me know. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-si=
am/

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Haoyu
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
_______________________________________________
ippm mailing list
ippm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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[http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo-email]

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect

Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

M 301 502-1347

--

[http://ss7.vzw.com/is/image/VerizonWireless/vz-logo-email]

Gyan Mishra

Network Solutions Architect

Email gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

M 301 502-1347


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Thanks Gyan!


In the next revision, I’ll add more informatio=
n on the requirements and comparisons with the other approaches.



 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com&g=
t; 

Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 9:41 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm=
@ietf.org>; Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g=
t;; spring@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 




Hi Haoyu






 






On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 1:42 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wro=
te:










Hi Gyan,


 


Thank you for your comments! Please see inline for response marked=
 with [HS]


 


Best,


Haoyu


 




From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>


Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:03 PM

To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com@dmarc.ietf.org>

Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com&g=
t;; IETF IPPM WG <ipp=
m@ietf.org>;
spring@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6




 






Hi Haoyu 






 






I think it would be good to identify the problem statement and gap=
 with existing IPPM WG STAMP, TWAMP PM technologies and why they cannot be =
utilized or fall short in what you are
 trying to achieve with Active OAM in SRv6. 






 


[HS] My understanding is that STAMP/TWAMP are for end-to-end measu=
rements, here we want to collect data from every node and every link on any=
 path, without needing to set up any
 sessions. So the scope and coverage are different.  


 Gyan> Understood.  STAMP/TWAMP can be used as well t=
o collect from every node as well.






In-situ IOAM data packets is already possible with SRv6 as mention=
ed as this draft mentions below as normative reference.






 








https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/html/draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data-16


 


[HS] There’s no accepted solution on how to support IOAM in =
SRv6 yet. Our proposal aims to provide such a solution, and (1) the solutio=
n avoids the issues on encapsulating the IOAM
 trace in EHs and (2) it’s extensible to include OAM methods beyond I=
OAM.




 Gyan> IPPM WG can speak to this document which has been a=
dopted and been developed since 2016 and provides in-situ OAM as you desire=
 and supports Segment Routing SRv6 as well as
 other encapsulations.






This draft as well mentioned as normative reference draft below pr=
ovides OAM ping and traceroute with SRH O flag to SRv6 PGM endpoints and SI=
D list tracing capabilities very handy
 for troubleshooting.






 









 


[HS] This is for in-band OAM for SRv6 user traffic and it only wor=
ks for triggering postcard exports (i.e., don’t allow the packet to c=
arry data). Our proposal support all the IOAM
 options and more important, it’s an active method which means one ca=
n generate and inject probing packets to cover arbitrary paths by crafting =
an SRH.



 Gyan> Understood 






This draft as well also mentioned as normative reference draft bel=
ow provides in-situ IOAM for OAM and PM information can be piggybacked in d=
ata packets in SRH TLV SRv6 PGM SIF
 function SRv6.TLV recording the operational and telemetry info in the data=
 packets.









[HS] This draft proposes to encapsulate IOAM in SRH TLV. Due to th=
e overhead concern (IOAM trace could be large) and other issues related to =
EH, I don’t support such a solution.



 Gyan> Understood.  Work is being done in 6MAN WG to =
address EH headers issues below as well as other drafts to make EH viable a=
nd reduce overhead.














 







 






 














[HS] The three drafts you mentioned are all be reference in our dr=
aft and discussed. We think our use cases are different and our approach is=
 more general and extensible to our
 use cases.






Gyan> Understood.  I think if you can add some additional =
verbiage as to problem statement and why existing solutions drafts mentione=
d are not sufficient for your requirements. 
 Maybe listing out your requirements would help couple to your proposed sol=
ution. 






Thanks 


















 






Gyan 






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 10:19 PM Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=3D40huawei.com=
@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:










Hi Haoyu,


 


The application is really interestin=
g and useful.


I am not sure if it is necessary to =
create a new OAM protocol at transport layer.


IMHO, a per hop/per segment extensio=
n based on STAMP could be more practical.


https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-wang-ippm-stamp-hbh-extensio=
ns-03.txt


 


Best,


Tianran  










 


From: ippm [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky

Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2022 7:01 AM

To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>

Cc: spring@ietf=
.org; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [ippm] [spring] Active OAM in SRv6


 








Hi Haoyu,




thank you for bringing the topic of Active OAM to the discussion. =
As the concept of Active IOAM is introduced in the

IPPM WG draft it seems to me like adding the IPPM WG community to =
the discussion is the right thing to do. 






Please find my notes in-lined below under the GIM>> tag.






 






Regards,






Greg






 






On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 2:37 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>=
 wrote:










Hi SPRING WG,


 


Real time monitor on every node and every link on a network is nec=
essary to detect  gray failures, which are the key culprit for poor Qo=
S but hard to catch. SR provides an ideal
 mechanism, when working with some efficient planning algorithm, to achieve=
 that with low cost.   Our proposal SRv6 In-situ Active Measureme=
nt (SIAM) suggests a simple  active measurement approach which can sup=
port different










GIM>> I wonder what gaps you find in the existing active mea=
surement protocols, e.g., STAMP and RFC 6734 (would be more convenient to u=
se an acronym). It appears to me that, for
 example, STAMP and its extensions, including the 
SRPM draft, comprehensively address the PM OAM requirements for SRv6.&n=
bsp;










options of IOAM and other OAM methods in SRv6, without needing to =
worry about the extension header issue.  










GIM>> draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data classifies IOAM as follows:<=
o:p>








   In terms of the classification given






   in [RFC7799] IOAM could be portrayed as Hybrid Type 1=
.








Does your proposal change that?










 


Your comments, questions, and suggestions are very welcome. I̵=
7;d like to know your opinion if you think this work is in scope and should=
 be adopted by the working group.  If you
 are interested in contributing to this work, please also let me know. 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-song-spring-siam/


 


Thank you very much!


 


Best regards,


Haoyu






_______________________________________________

spring mailing list

spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring














_______________________________________________

ippm mailing list

ippm@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm









--





















<=
o:p>


Gyan Mishra


Network Solutions Architect 

Email
gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com


M 301 502-1347






 






























-- 




















<=
span style=3D"color:#222222">


Gyan Mishra=



Network Solutions Architect&nb=
sp;


Email
gyan.s.mishr=
a@verizon.com



M 301 =
502-1347






 
























--_000_BY3PR13MB47877F5B9F4CAED75CD457C29A259BY3PR13MB4787namp_--


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