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10.157.80.42 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 10:43:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <16556.1509475872@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <71CC2B06-F342-45F5-A0B2-EF822B2F2D54@arm.com> <17522.1509411065@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <16556.1509475872@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 13:43:54 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: qB5bzcr2fJxkmDEN1gDSOTxwp1E Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: Henk Birkholz , suit@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest format encodings X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 17:43:57 -0000 Having written three ASN.1 parser/encoders, I have a few opinions on them. For cryptographic applications, some use of ASN.1 is inevitable. Its just the legacy infrastructure and there is no way to escape it. But unless you are trying to do something unusual, you can almost always make use of the ASN.1 code that is provided in crypto libraries for the operations you need to use crypto. In many if not most cases, those ASN.1 libraries are not general purpose and can't be used to encode or decode other data structures without a LOT of additional work. As in five to ten times the amount of work it would take me to write a JSON encoder/decoder from scratch. So my policy on ASN.1 is: No new ASN.1. The way I implemented ASN.1 in the Mesh was to manually convert the insane schema format to something I could parse with my own tools and used that to develop an encoder/decoder for DER encoding. If I had to write a specification round ASN.1, I would emit the ASN.1 schema from my tool as an output. This is exactly the same way that I make use of XML Schema. When I was editing the SAML 1.0 spec, people's ideas on how to encode data structures in XML changed every couple of weeks. Use model groups! No don't! etc. It is now my firm belief that the fact that there are at least six ways to encode a data set in XML means that XML is the wrong tool. I have even abandoned use of XML for my documentation tooling in favor of what is essentially Markdown but using XML-ish tags in place of punctuation characters as I find
easier to remember than whatever colon mess Markdown is using. At this point, the industry is very very fixed on JSON as the future. It might turn out to be a flavor of the month thing but I doubt it. JSON is essentially just a variation on S-expression syntax which has been used since the 60s. It matches the data model of virtually every modern programming language, at least as far as what is relevant to a serialization format. What ASN.1 got wrong is that there is no such thing as a set in a serialization since a sequence of bytes will ALWAYS be a list. So I would very much like it if we decided to make the JSON data model the basis for the encoding of the manifest data. I believe that is going to be the future. From nobody Wed Nov 1 12:52:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8EE513FE8B for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R3433gKidFiZ for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 12:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94B8213F5B7 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 12:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2509420089 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 15:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC46882639 for ; Wed, 1 Nov 2017 15:52:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: "suit\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <71CC2B06-F342-45F5-A0B2-EF822B2F2D54@arm.com> <17522.1509411065@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <16556.1509475872@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest format encodings X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2017 19:52:49 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brendan Moran wrote: > This is not the only use-case for multiple inspection of the manifest. > Manifests could support configuration data (it=E2=80=99s just another= binary > blob, right?) and this complicates matters. It might not be a binary blog, it may well be signed JSON. > Suppose an OEM has retained the sole right to write firmware for a > device, but they have delegated the authority to write configuration > data to an Operator. The Operator may have many different device > vendors and, therefore, may need to support many different OEMs. If > each OEM has the right to select any encoding they want for the > manifest, then the Operator will need to have many toolchains for > creating manifests. It becomes easy for the Operator to produce the > wrong encoding of manifest for each device. I don't buy your argument. Incompetent operators might do that, but I don't see why this should force the manufacturer to put multiple sets of possibly buggy code in their bootloader. You seem to be suggesting that: a) the manifest contains the configuration data. An alternative is that the configuration data is a second blob with a second manifest. b) that toolchains running on non-constrained hosts are expensive. I claim otherwise. > Contrast this with a single encoding, regardless of what that encoding > is: the Operator needs a single, standard toolchain for producing > manifests for any managed device. The devices can always parse the > manifest, and produce useful messages about the content. I don't really want to have an encoding war. > This is not the only use-case. Multiple-signature of manifests may be > used to assert qualification by third parties, such as test labs. If = an > Operator wants to ensure that a particular firmware or configuration > works as expected on one or more networks, they may contract a > third-party test lab to qualify the update package (manifest + > payload). This third-party test lab will then sign the manifest when > they have finished qualification. Third-party testing is not cheap. If the format of the manifest is an issue, then the third-party will die. > I don=E2=80=99t have a strong preference for which encoding to use, h= owever the > revised draft that we submitted on 2017-10-30 used CBOR/COSE due to t= he > reduced encoded size. I don=E2=80=99t think that JSON or XML are good= choices > for resource-constrained devices. I'm all for COSE, but it depends upon what you sign it with. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAln6JgwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUv8Af/fayqW0vKbrMq0e2aLJgYVUFuONejzJ8oJ8FFLZIYoVlm1nfkMHwXRoHW j+7n4wmEyKshKibVLSsLU+fXI5uT3edQSfLOyD+uKoShE4cH8dJZgnZ3ER9L+Vgf 3AJGssO+21AakuUU+H3t8BKCbQiMHO8AnyKgMb/6A98Cwr6T6Ajyxk79+is4uH1V fUBWSC6krQ5y7xlfOxIk86bXmrUgwoS/ru90KCCVAhpbhle3GxG27VHS7E3sFj+T ir33m9JQItOLGhchzH8fr3CbhN76JQLxE0bBq4ClmvUKuN7DatDHWpVaNIaPoxEf UVSGXXtmD5rL21NqPx2GLRIfCOEnsg== =Hxzn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Nov 2 14:01:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9776913F95E for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:01:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aKPC6SB9Afel for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua0-x230.google.com (mail-ua0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0970813F682 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua0-x230.google.com with SMTP id f46so616147uae.1 for ; Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:01:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AG2WmIrlHG5E3j0SQTpTzonN0PjKn7HZ1DHYhEXeP2c=; b=WRCk65xeZSRn77WXLBVCOdYr5+2LD+UZJIkfB8FIyvj2Xhf3se29hB1303I/izgmzX ask6gKlXilsh7ZGWFHtop+9n7Le9CF9BChSQlFFVYzUF4tOFOXeDW0jrr5d9N/5yMAiH ubeWfTHQQIp+V0v5HD/ezzOQtk5V8nnnv+PmFVh1rfk2kPQEJSgxfna2ayIGXb9zUWyd EBh6zVwscq7BZEzoQvEx9POWUymiiXkd2ARVWOG2JGmvpQ4zTHIK3ZX2R0+bo89nw7vi EaMv+m4bn+0kf9G0eWRNpQ0GxnsdnULULdOoKNYGvzyAxxEEvxzLQYKKMHUHMv6W1kmM W9fg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=AG2WmIrlHG5E3j0SQTpTzonN0PjKn7HZ1DHYhEXeP2c=; b=mgehO+tYPy6LV5jNR/kTQPsQH4baEorkE5+X37rmcoOtX0HrYkEZb6gwdh8zB4Utxk NoWPExM1IPpvkye/iVUE1wXvFy2K5wP43nbkID7OvjUvSlx/Qoze2yjlZe5MYjZGhhku Vm/tDlom9zODX/Xrr87Xrn6kPlQprcjOu03NycTXGziBbtOKGi0T35y4emW7DVFcgbxZ YqSS0huLBOuh1PvUgLVPA7hfkjyhCwOY5Gb+g8EQ8zM62ManikX/0U9u+9vYkQ7cJrxD liZPB/9Gx8794V4AEDs/h2VPEeDDWjP3v1E1OvNamXS0QrphLSfSULhZlbaNRDi9rTQK +Ptg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7l9ybG3tOYJMWFaEj7NVaLe8wsyhmmAdcQkUnykeiirBg1svJN 3pNJaEyZwibNao6P1w3W+cd0Wmu6aoL2jfbkpzOstw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QH4flK1zK879UCZmHOGuVe0ZGJYZBRFUZZct0jGwgWp+lZAjBI8++g5j194KN8OY5lyM7Bqu1WG8QkcG9LBY4= X-Received: by 10.176.22.10 with SMTP id k10mr2489724uae.6.1509656464878; Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:01:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.58.102 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:01:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:01:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1145761a52736b055d064973" Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] ASN.1 Encoding Format for Manifest X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2017 21:01:07 -0000 --001a1145761a52736b055d064973 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would want to discuss on the topic of ASN.1 encoding format that seems to presume that the IoT device has the parser for ASN.1 as part of the application stack (say TLS) outside the boot-loader I don't think we can have that assumption that the firmware update process will always have enough space for two copies of application software, so that it can download a new one before replacing the old one. Many devices have a small downloader plus enough space for one copy of the application firmware. Hence I don=E2=80=99t think the assumptions that there is already an ASN.1 = parser available is true. I would recommend that the charter allows the WG to reconsider ASN.1 choice as the default for the manifest encoding format and allow encodings that are suitable to the device in question. Cheers Suhas --001a1145761a52736b055d064973 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would want to discuss on the topic = of ASN.1 encoding format that seems to presume that the IoT device has the = parser for ASN.1 as part of the application stack (say TLS) outside the boo= t-loader


I don't think we can = have that assumption that the firmware update process will always have enou= gh space =C2=A0for two copies of application software, so that it can downl= oad a new one before replacing the old one. Many devices have a small downl= oader plus enough space for one copy of the application firmware.

Hence I don=E2=80=99t think the assumption= s that there is already an ASN.1 parser available is true.=C2=A0 I would re= commend that the charter allows the WG to reconsider ASN.1 choice as the de= fault for the manifest encoding format and allow encodings that are suitabl= e to the device in question.



Cheers

Suhas

--001a1145761a52736b055d064973-- From nobody Thu Nov 2 14:02:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7616D13F971 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kqZp5e_fl4yA for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E792F13F970 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id i133so561284vke.9 for ; Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:02:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uJtsW+/HDBLBSQn7s+cOLPWFJ2lB+LsaKd5enSBWs1k=; b=DX6qI3Ukk4mVs4huIsX5SJ/QxIwUlHBQ996jtVk78t8oB8V8G9DTsa1ROx4Nliog9c 0m6Nt4myntJ6lm0lqWaNcUC9tipM3EKGBV5Mh8CnV8pqAlH6REmzTEs3CWvpe1NbhAWL H+0SVdd5xl7ejWavOk2N4fCJbG3xJULPnruSCJrPxqF0NCIPiqRfXP9X/Ayf1jVyxT6w 7aWvmAlyD4m3pzl9bXHCNxD2VoAvVr7UUCL1cEpjtL2wdem/tx2zpAUI99a6hdg7EC+G 72D4RJ6bVXnIDpb59PxtO7jckR37Ig2IgBuwgdgN5ishVLyb59eNGmhPk19TmZRTs/ko 8ZuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uJtsW+/HDBLBSQn7s+cOLPWFJ2lB+LsaKd5enSBWs1k=; b=M3R1/+hOBZH2FsAt41UBsLEPcZNXnaWc+lg9k0/U3cY42KFVCngrLs6AdQSBQoElzQ XnJvHwMEEnO5Xpj9N3HVXJeA2W2/Oxe1gvDNjyb7kvDnx5wTvr3/N6bjCENXxgN4pVf5 9/7tbTItnMTW4MZSIVHok3MJp6Uvqwb3nICiTstRgedJtStmNmJp8Dxq74w/FqeXI7nu j4w8laZMsfjZ/fuqghd+yNI1LRhIzIfaIU2dDS/k46qA9+qULdQN/oNhtVbu3VsSUPyP 6CiM2tLx2UhmE91YsNED96NPo5fMx0FguHwTr7s0DF9DzN0P7bCW7ATJZmC/17zSncOw qrOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVB2/nJeczgj9c60/0oEOE4FpW4z0tZmdMbYj8vDJIvSFrBn4um eydSTUvd19sE0Nj8Ss4OgfZyVu8ynDgso7+tsP3/9w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+T2vkCa7mjAH+iKepVpFIVBx79GRHVNq/ngu/v+GqpRgccMX31RLT62RrGE7obbCASx2xwh1JmTUTAF9bpMPOg= X-Received: by 10.31.180.143 with SMTP id d137mr3723112vkf.40.1509656552907; Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:02:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.58.102 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:02:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:02:32 -0700 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1143fc2491a8af055d064eae" Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Firmware Update Architecture X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2017 21:02:35 -0000 --001a1143fc2491a8af055d064eae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi All On the topic of firmware update architecture, having a standardized way to locate the firmware server is critical for the SUIT WG. There are several deployments where the IoT device operating under restricted network access cannot reach out to the manufacturer's/OEM's website to download the firmware. Often one does not want to have a device with unpatched firmware using the open internet to contact the vendor's web site to get a firmware update and instead a local firmware server is used to cache the firmware. One can expect to have local firmware server managed by the enterprise/factory to serve the firmware. Having charter make provision on process to discover such local server and locate the manifest (and firmware) on that server at a well-known location will be super beneficial. My draft does talk at a higher level on how this can be achieved along with reaching out to manufacturer's server in the alternate scenarios. If the WG think such a mechanism is useful, we should work on getting that requirement as part of the charter. This part of the problem is more in need of standardization than than the format of the manifest as it is actually needed for interoperability. Cheers Suhas --001a1143fc2491a8af055d064eae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<= br>

Hi All


On the topic of firmware update architecture, having =C2=A0a standardize= d way to locate the firmware server is critical for the SUIT WG.

=

There are several deployments where the IoT = device operating under restricted network access cannot reach out to the ma= nufacturer's/OEM's website to download the firmware. Often one does= not want to have a device with unpatched firmware using the open internet = to contact the vendor's web site to get a firmware update and instead a= local firmware server is used to cache the firmware.=C2=A0 One can expect = to have local firmware server managed by the enterprise/factory to serve th= e firmware.


Having charter make pr= ovision on process to discover such local server and locate the manifest (a= nd firmware) on that server at a well-known location will be super benefici= al.


My draft does talk at a higher= level on how this can be achieved along with reaching out to manufacturer&= #39;s server in the alternate scenarios.


If the WG think such a mechanism is useful, we should work on gettin= g that requirement as part of the charter. This part of the problem is more= in need of standardization than than the format of the manifest as it is a= ctually needed for interoperability.

<= br>

Cheers

Suhas

--001a1143fc2491a8af055d064eae-- From nobody Thu Nov 2 14:03:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3599413F7FA for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:03:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LHkL7RcweTdJ for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71F7813F682 for ; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id x65so579692vkx.1 for ; Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:03:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xjzLBhJoYm6HE1hfglN+O8X/GXuxfpn3TeSukPG94wc=; b=oHax7Op0FjQnGBM2C5KRV4j/Hv3nMRpvhaGt3pH8HhEH5NjQorkTLLyT0Zo1QOUmI1 iCTKtl5jrdPcM852xVl1Od5v7hC3wYcmA3FoLJMFsiv6cDQXMHzOIxYNWz6I6SUxKfA3 7DzMtHSgFfuN4icykkmRHq+2qw1vmeYUG70kxsepk+DdXI2E9syrGJoLQZ0hY+btNnes xnal28zaA6cbkq2Ub3MBYhoZKEBGFXhrlPOxdqgHUcgPVJerI5SnqYT3pmYrHF3/E/F9 1O7aPT9lAiJAMQhCfIOiUbKSInd/RsaRfdo2x4o7XJFV5m19HerO7gCa0gxgs5AkQ7wR uH4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xjzLBhJoYm6HE1hfglN+O8X/GXuxfpn3TeSukPG94wc=; b=pqhv3KpX73ZUcD4vNZe7TxoMljJCcE8ZYaqyAbeiI6lgAdOk+E+XYZ9Pki4jHeIKS6 unlVMJJkMHSXbb1JbXx2sfLbU7gt5+M2eKEy3/8BQbhlcRqoaAUrvrbpCqhSRU4aikv7 v2MHtBdjbObwux6Nydjilnbl8Z5cAPEqUkqmcFUrRm1v48CREkTeHRsvvGm5E82IkjVB Go3tacBEM+lwTyBO1Ebns6zQR34sEJV50wpHLnZxzQsO0aruSmUFn1PH/egD0wDDL3Xw pE3pkyqDs1n6EQPP4R5yfTpTSKmhB2GrmC3BZXh8XIyzekjh4LziKnOcdHYnx7Kjbht6 dsZA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXYoatCTTWXHeOF0A7NGZgxZ5HQVEH+d2MhD66kzyF9SbCkrMvt an2GkP4gjxfmdTrjoDWPKJ+PK9Mlv6ggPad/dU6bTw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Tk/mB2wqDN/+r7lfjzEPgudRjkbnYcluJu5g6HRp+rbTQPSNQUhk3I7HI2xTsWQGo9sETdgResymMoH3+RxRo= X-Received: by 10.31.41.149 with SMTP id p143mr4066713vkp.21.1509656634453; Thu, 02 Nov 2017 14:03:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.58.102 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:03:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2017 14:03:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ee6a46df79f055d0653bd" Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Manifest Content Semantics (not the syntax) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2017 21:03:57 -0000 --001a113ee6a46df79f055d0653bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" One of the main goals for SUIT is to standardize the container format for describing the manifest and firmware. Different vendors, and different devices, have different preferences on, if the syntax is based on JSON, ASN.1 CBOR, etc. The important thing from a design and security point of view is that the semantic information is correct not the syntax. The charter should focus the WG on figuring out the right semantic information that needs to be in the manifest and allow that to be mapped to multiple different encodings that work with the tools and development practices that are appropriate for the device that is using it. Cheers Suhas --001a113ee6a46df79f055d0653bd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<= span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent= ;vertical-align:baseline">=C2=A0

One of the = main goals for SUIT is to standardize the container format for describing t= he manifest and firmware.=C2=A0 Different vendors, and different devices, h= ave different preferences on, if the syntax is based on JSON, ASN.1 CBOR, e= tc.=C2=A0

The important thing from a design = and security point of view is that the semantic information is correct not = the syntax.


The charter should fo= cus the WG on figuring out the right semantic information that needs to be = in the manifest and allow that to be mapped to multiple different encodings= that work with the tools and development practices that are appropriate fo= r the device that is using it.


Cheers

Suhas

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Fri, 3 Nov 2017 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.64.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: suit@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 09:32:03 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 16:32:03 -0000 The Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) WG in the Security Area of the IETF is undergoing rechartering. The IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2017-11-13. Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: BOF WG Chairs: Dave Thaler David Waltermire Russ Housley Assigned Area Director: Kathleen Moriarty Security Area Directors: Kathleen Moriarty Eric Rescorla Mailing list: Address: suit@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=suit Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/suit/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for constrained devices. Security experts, researchers, and regulators recommend that all IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism. While there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, there is a lack of a modern interoperable approach of securely updating the software in IoT devices. A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: * A mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices. * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion. * The firmware image itself. RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years have passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater experience with IoT deployments has led to additional functionality, requiring the work done with RFC 4108 to be revisited. This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution for Class 1 devices, as defined in RFC 7228, that is -- IoT devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more capable devices as well. This group will not define any transport mechanisms. In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland. The main goal of the workshop was to foster a discussion on requirements, challenges, and solutions for bringing software and firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop also made clear that there are challenges with misaligned incentives and complex value chains. It is nevertheless seen as important to create standard building blocks that help interested parties implement and deploy a solid firmware update mechanism. In particular this group aims to publish three documents, namely: * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. * One or more manifest format specifications. The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. Use of the ASN.1 encoding is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used within current IoT operating systems. The group may later adopt alternate manifest formats using other serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic software update mechanism for use by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead this group will focus on software development practices in the embedded industry. "Software update solutions that target updating software other than the firmware binary (e.g. updating scripts) are also out of scope. This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. Milestones: Dec 2017 - Adopt RFC 4108bis document as WG item. Dec 2017 - Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. Dec 2017 - Adopt "Manifest Format" specification as WG item. Jan 2018 - Adopt "Architecture" to the IESG for publication as an Informational RFC. Mar 2018 - Calendar item: Release initial version of the manifest creation tools as open source. Apr 2018 - Calendar item: Release first version of manifest test tools as open source. Jun 2018 - Calendar item: Release first IoT OS implementation of firmware update mechanisms as open source. Nov 2018 - Submit RFC 4108bis document to the IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard. Nov 2018 - Submit "Manifest Format" to the IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard. From nobody Fri Nov 3 09:43:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747E013FEEF for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 09:43:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gNfZ3caYLyJB for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gcc01-dm2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm2gcc01on0111.outbound.protection.outlook.com [23.103.201.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83A1513FF0D for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nist-gov; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=jz2bESB7ea0gp6SSDjj+OtSpyGHi1CqTfXGr2xYd12Y=; b=2bSyUSKQkmCAQQWgLzZK2JBwLrSwvy3gtII7845B6/Q6LY/O44ZYlg9POYdOGBLqDW9HFnuQiqdLOZxBUYDr2tvzFWQ9h7Fv6cjdqJkzrgdezwfY9kkFaIO3SEcS8mKR2tu7oUsd4BIa1hwOeS6r2EQRZWAiNTtkkpjocpfV7I0= Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.141) by CY4PR09MB1493.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.197.13; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 16:43:13 +0000 Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) by CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) with mapi id 15.20.0197.013; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 16:43:13 +0000 From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" To: "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) Thread-Index: AQHTVMFRwLvJJm6/L02nsHYjmbMeoKMC2jSw Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 16:43:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=david.waltermire@nist.gov; x-originating-ip: [129.6.224.58] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY4PR09MB1493; 6:h1SjKt7fm08GwyJ2lnnvHwCGytI/5ILbeyoYoIj08CQXo2+1HnF5Pg8mRyPme7l8yhBg5iipkwk68v7eR+2VYadS7ihxWU6g8VhZXGA+H0aNIAUd2OZNnRfr+NqW9xS9qUU9Y1x7KIF9lJkUNwYxSIjEwp/iMAdvFOTaf63DPtFg1+ue4AG+XvNQkqpueccQECTtBsQKOF7kxzOCwDarBL1GSBZpPqwzs8X1/8k69mqxmjtA0lRzUjraoEOHH/xpi0Pcc/EMeYWysCCh4IBSqH975tIE18a1Bo1o4LVpuZslMVsEpof4723L81kkY9wgOJdHw6kv2Fh+d4m3Cbdq1b6kFHSSdWb8jbJ6vLAvuN8=; 5:SQhVRrPbwFvBF20kgDd7d43MAyYL5xaXoiGo4dGDhdWusw5TFkTfUHezg4hfvQNB1dsiiSKAE3VaLSK4qhLiU8kEW154GmQUCAoxUaOgGwaAAAsmO1SO5eXFwIH/QHeQGcLZSERjlA2MBg+I/t3LAX1m6IHK0T+k13QBDviHEUg=; 24:B6EtZH3zIotAaKXztT96L4h03PnAPyTQGqw/YWIr6Rt6JoeVXbDKCNjFF5y13VHPIuYGS2Vjj/mir+6BUG844bTtFJ1knLEe9QiB8fvPh9s=; 7:Mzqyfj3uqGx35/7R9m2xKRx2/wp9cGBjIzippas7PwgS9/qYnjrOS98FNSCObbhQ4H1xIrdI2EdF7S/Hu+qmiN0ryVWjVgvRWwYe1tSlYJTsKQ45adIiM7n7b9Rtv6PHsUixGYVeKq0XBqegvIyPar5BGLGVR0HBfsRrQeWyQt7J+wqYIcv4lKFvMbkJtqGvdzvrL3hVK5HG13BR2VopoYSttfCctOH4StA1qrF9PxvA+sYWm1KBLS4NmI2cPTtL x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: fb1063ea-f838-4131-97ea-08d522d9f98c x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(4534020)(4602075)(4627115)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(48565401081)(2017052603199); SRVR:CY4PR09MB1493; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR09MB1493: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(65766998875637)(89211679590171)(192374486261705)(189930954265078)(219752817060721); x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000700101)(100105000095)(100000701101)(100105300095)(100000702101)(100105100095)(6040450)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(93006095)(93001095)(10201501046)(3231021)(3002001)(100000703101)(100105400095)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123562025)(20161123564025)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123555025)(20161123560025)(20161123558100)(6072148)(201708071742011)(100000704101)(100105200095)(100000705101)(100105500095); SRVR:CY4PR09MB1493; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000800101)(100110000095)(100000801101)(100110300095)(100000802101)(100110100095)(100000803101)(100110400095)(100000804101)(100110200095)(100000805101)(100110500095); SRVR:CY4PR09MB1493; x-forefront-prvs: 0480A51D4A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(376002)(346002)(45074003)(189002)(13464003)(199003)(66066001)(6246003)(68736007)(4001150100001)(86362001)(99286004)(3280700002)(2906002)(7696004)(8936002)(2950100002)(2501003)(6916009)(15650500001)(3660700001)(5660300001)(101416001)(54356999)(97736004)(76176999)(50986999)(575784001)(316002)(5640700003)(6436002)(55016002)(229853002)(6306002)(53936002)(9686003)(6506006)(77096006)(105586002)(45080400002)(14454004)(74316002)(53546010)(7736002)(305945005)(966005)(102836003)(106356001)(33656002)(81156014)(8676002)(1730700003)(81166006)(189998001)(3846002)(6116002)(478600001)(2900100001)(25786009)(2351001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR09MB1493; H:CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nist.gov does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fb1063ea-f838-4131-97ea-08d522d9f98c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Nov 2017 16:43:13.0594 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR09MB1493 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 16:43:19 -0000 Going forward I'd like to focus our discussion of the charter around specif= ic textual changes that need to be made to this charter. Please focus your = comments around proposing new text to address any concerns you might have. I will keep a working copy of the charter based on the conversation going f= orward, which we will review at the IETF 100 SUIT BoF on Monday, November 1= 3, 2017 in Singapore. Regards, Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of The IESG > Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 12:32 PM > To: IETF-Announce > Cc: suit@ietf.org > Subject: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) >=20 > The Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) WG in the Security Are= a of > the IETF is undergoing rechartering. The IESG has not made any determinat= ion > yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for > informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailin= g list > (iesg@ietf.org) by 2017-11-13. >=20 > Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Current status: BOF WG >=20 > Chairs: > Dave Thaler > David Waltermire > Russ Housley >=20 > Assigned Area Director: > Kathleen Moriarty >=20 > Security Area Directors: > Kathleen Moriarty > Eric Rescorla >=20 > Mailing list: > Address: suit@ietf.org > To subscribe: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ie= t > f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40 > nist.gov%7Cd192afbbaa384fa3a58d08d522d86ca6%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93 > e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636453235286858513&sdata=3DQztGtSdbI9GjF > Ui%2BtcbEirxM026iG%2BT0Yztmex4Ghbo%3D&reserved=3D0 > Archive: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmailar= chi > ve.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fsearch%2F%3Femail_list%3Dsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cd > avid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7Cd192afbbaa384fa3a58d08d522d86ca6%7C2a > b5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636453235286858513&s > data=3DxbYnoky%2FpcGtkA9EJJwjeMBJO5k6gB5PyE5A0PGDQ%2Bw%3D&reserv > ed=3D0 >=20 > Group page: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatr= ac > ker.ietf.org%2Fgroup%2Fsuit%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nis > t.gov%7Cd192afbbaa384fa3a58d08d522d86ca6%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e0 > 54655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636453235286858513&sdata=3D1wVU3kU%2FtTw > 7YpjxNyGV1Dj5P20FcxzE%2FbaLYrJ8%2F%2BQ%3D&reserved=3D0 >=20 > Charter: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatr= ac > ker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf- > suit%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7Cd192afbbaa384 > fa3a58d08d522d86ca6%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0 > %7C636453235286858513&sdata=3DW7XS6qSxpFjmjTgv9SUtJh%2FhGV67IaQr > 11e6dMTd9lM%3D&reserved=3D0 >=20 > Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need = for a > secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for constrained de= vices. > Security experts, researchers, and regulators recommend that all IoT devi= ces be > equipped with such a mechanism. While there are many proprietary firmwar= e > update mechanisms in use today, there is a lack of a modern interoperable > approach of securely updating the software in IoT devices. >=20 > A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: > * A mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices. > * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image > (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package > needs to run, and dependencies on other firmware packages), as > well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware > image in an end-to-end fashion. > * The firmware image itself. >=20 > RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message > Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. >=20 > More than ten years have passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and gr= eater > experience with IoT deployments has led to additional functionality, requ= iring > the work done with RFC 4108 to be revisited. > This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution for Class > 1 devices, as defined in RFC 7228, that is -- IoT devices with ~10 KiB RA= M and > ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more capable devices as well. = This > group will not define any transport mechanisms. >=20 > In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on > 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place at T= rinity > College in Dublin, Ireland. The main goal of the workshop was to foster = a > discussion on requirements, challenges, and solutions for bringing softwa= re and > firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop also made clear that there= are > challenges with misaligned incentives and complex value chains. It is > nevertheless seen as important to create standard building blocks that he= lp > interested parties implement and deploy a solid firmware update mechanism= . >=20 > In particular this group aims to publish three documents, namely: > * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of > the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. > * One or more manifest format specifications. >=20 > The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest approac= h based > on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result in a revision of RFC= 4108 > that reflects the current best practices. Use of the ASN.1 encoding is de= sirable > due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used within current IoT > operating systems. The group may later adopt alternate manifest formats u= sing > other serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). This group does not aim to c= reate a > standard for a generic software update mechanism for use by rich operatin= g > systems, like Linux, but instead this group will focus on software develo= pment > practices in the embedded industry. "Software update solutions that targ= et > updating software other than the firmware binary (e.g. > updating scripts) are also out of scope. >=20 > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors= and > OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt RFC 4108bis document as WG item. >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt "Manifest Format" specification as WG item. >=20 > Jan 2018 - Adopt "Architecture" to the IESG for publication as an > Informational RFC. >=20 > Mar 2018 - Calendar item: Release initial version of the manifest creat= ion > tools as open source. >=20 > Apr 2018 - Calendar item: Release first version of manifest test tools = as > open source. >=20 > Jun 2018 - Calendar item: Release first IoT OS implementation of firmwa= re > update mechanisms as open source. >=20 > Nov 2018 - Submit RFC 4108bis document to the IESG for publication as a > Proposed Standard. >=20 > Nov 2018 - Submit "Manifest Format" to the IESG for publication as a > Proposed Standard. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ie= t > f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40 > nist.gov%7Cd192afbbaa384fa3a58d08d522d86ca6%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93 > e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636453235286858513&sdata=3DQztGtSdbI9GjF > Ui%2BtcbEirxM026iG%2BT0Yztmex4Ghbo%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Fri Nov 3 10:48:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29FA613FF0E; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 10:48:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RC-bbXjOl3Jv; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 10:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC8CF13FF0D; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 10:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vA3HmMBu007813; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:48:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from pptp-218-2.informatik.uni-bremen.de (pptp-218-2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yT8ZG0V1mzDXbQ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:48:22 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:48:21 +0100 Cc: suit@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 531424100.884258-5359bc26237c4c6f17a9b4c2e3de21ac Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3FFD3EC9-EB6C-4102-83C3-EB0A6CC248E9@tzi.org> References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: The IESG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 17:48:29 -0000 I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. Is this the current proposed text? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Nov 3, 2017, at 17:32, The IESG wrote: >=20 > The Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) WG in the Security = Area of > the IETF is undergoing rechartering. The IESG has not made any = determination > yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for > informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG = mailing > list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2017-11-13. >=20 > Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Current status: BOF WG >=20 > Chairs: > Dave Thaler > David Waltermire > Russ Housley >=20 > Assigned Area Director: > Kathleen Moriarty >=20 > Security Area Directors: > Kathleen Moriarty > Eric Rescorla >=20 > Mailing list: > Address: suit@ietf.org > To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=3Dsuit >=20 > Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/suit/ >=20 > Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ >=20 > Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the > need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for > constrained devices. Security experts, researchers, and regulators > recommend that all IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism. = While > there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, = there > is a lack of a modern interoperable approach of securely updating the > software in IoT devices. >=20 > A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: > * A mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices. > * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image > (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package > needs to run, and dependencies on other firmware packages), as > well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware > image in an end-to-end fashion. > * The firmware image itself. >=20 > RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic = Message > Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. >=20 > More than ten years have passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and > greater experience with IoT deployments has led to additional > functionality, requiring the work done with RFC 4108 to be revisited. > This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution for Class > 1 devices, as defined in RFC 7228, that is -- IoT devices with ~10 KiB > RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more capable = devices > as well. This group will not define any transport mechanisms. >=20 > In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop = on > 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place = at > Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland. The main goal of the workshop was > to foster a discussion on requirements, challenges, and solutions for > bringing software and firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop > also made clear that there are challenges with misaligned incentives > and complex value chains. It is nevertheless seen as important to > create standard building blocks that help interested parties implement > and deploy a solid firmware update mechanism. >=20 > In particular this group aims to publish three documents, namely: > * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of > the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. > * One or more manifest format specifications. >=20 > The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest = approach > based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result in a = revision of > RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. Use of the ASN.1 = encoding > is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used = within > current IoT operating systems. The group may later adopt alternate = manifest > formats using other serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). This group = does > not aim to create a standard for a generic software update mechanism = for use > by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead this group will = focus on > software development practices in the embedded industry. "Software = update > solutions that target updating software other than the firmware binary = (e.g. > updating scripts) are also out of scope. >=20 > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon = vendors > and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt RFC 4108bis document as WG item. >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt "Manifest Format" specification as WG item. >=20 > Jan 2018 - Adopt "Architecture" to the IESG for publication as an > Informational RFC. >=20 > Mar 2018 - Calendar item: Release initial version of the manifest = creation > tools as open source. >=20 > Apr 2018 - Calendar item: Release first version of manifest test = tools as > open source. >=20 > Jun 2018 - Calendar item: Release first IoT OS implementation of = firmware > update mechanisms as open source. >=20 > Nov 2018 - Submit RFC 4108bis document to the IESG for publication as = a > Proposed Standard. >=20 > Nov 2018 - Submit "Manifest Format" to the IESG for publication as a > Proposed Standard. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >=20 From nobody Fri Nov 3 10:50:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 133BC13FF0D; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 10:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TMMOkEDfoHrt; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B598213FEFD; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 10:49:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vA3HnqTr008762; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:49:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from pptp-218-2.informatik.uni-bremen.de (pptp-218-2.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yT8bz5X4qzDXbS; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:49:51 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:49:50 +0100 Cc: suit@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 531424190.537806-0c37800fd692cf858956f7c7b48d0b8c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: The IESG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 17:50:09 -0000 I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. Is this the current proposed text? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Nov 3, 2017, at 17:32, The IESG wrote: >=20 > The Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) WG in the Security = Area of > the IETF is undergoing rechartering. The IESG has not made any = determination > yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for > informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG = mailing > list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2017-11-13. >=20 > Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Current status: BOF WG >=20 > Chairs: > Dave Thaler > David Waltermire > Russ Housley >=20 > Assigned Area Director: > Kathleen Moriarty >=20 > Security Area Directors: > Kathleen Moriarty > Eric Rescorla >=20 > Mailing list: > Address: suit@ietf.org > To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=3Dsuit >=20 > Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/suit/ >=20 > Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ >=20 > Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the > need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for > constrained devices. Security experts, researchers, and regulators > recommend that all IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism. = While > there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, = there > is a lack of a modern interoperable approach of securely updating the > software in IoT devices. >=20 > A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: > * A mechanism to transport firmware images to IoT devices. > * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image > (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package > needs to run, and dependencies on other firmware packages), as > well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware > image in an end-to-end fashion. > * The firmware image itself. >=20 > RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic = Message > Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. >=20 > More than ten years have passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and > greater experience with IoT deployments has led to additional > functionality, requiring the work done with RFC 4108 to be revisited. > This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution for Class > 1 devices, as defined in RFC 7228, that is -- IoT devices with ~10 KiB > RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more capable = devices > as well. This group will not define any transport mechanisms. >=20 > In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop = on > 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place = at > Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland. The main goal of the workshop was > to foster a discussion on requirements, challenges, and solutions for > bringing software and firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop > also made clear that there are challenges with misaligned incentives > and complex value chains. It is nevertheless seen as important to > create standard building blocks that help interested parties implement > and deploy a solid firmware update mechanism. >=20 > In particular this group aims to publish three documents, namely: > * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of > the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. > * One or more manifest format specifications. >=20 > The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest = approach > based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result in a = revision of > RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. Use of the ASN.1 = encoding > is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used = within > current IoT operating systems. The group may later adopt alternate = manifest > formats using other serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). This group = does > not aim to create a standard for a generic software update mechanism = for use > by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead this group will = focus on > software development practices in the embedded industry. "Software = update > solutions that target updating software other than the firmware binary = (e.g. > updating scripts) are also out of scope. >=20 > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon = vendors > and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. >=20 > Milestones: >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt RFC 4108bis document as WG item. >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. >=20 > Dec 2017 - Adopt "Manifest Format" specification as WG item. >=20 > Jan 2018 - Adopt "Architecture" to the IESG for publication as an > Informational RFC. >=20 > Mar 2018 - Calendar item: Release initial version of the manifest = creation > tools as open source. >=20 > Apr 2018 - Calendar item: Release first version of manifest test tools = as > open source. >=20 > Jun 2018 - Calendar item: Release first IoT OS implementation of = firmware > update mechanisms as open source. >=20 > Nov 2018 - Submit RFC 4108bis document to the IESG for publication as = a > Proposed Standard. >=20 > Nov 2018 - Submit "Manifest Format" to the IESG for publication as a > Proposed Standard. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit >=20 _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit From nobody Fri Nov 3 11:04:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2534F13FF1D; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:04:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a0XKuWOdbyCA; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D987513FF0F; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [169.254.25.119] (50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id vA3I2evk075757 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:02:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141] claimed to be [169.254.25.119] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "The IESG" Cc: suit@ietf.org Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 11:04:03 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.7r5425) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 18:04:07 -0000 On 3 Nov 2017, at 10:49, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest >> approach >> based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result in a >> revision of >> RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. > I’m slightly confused by this charter proposal. > The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. > Is this the current proposed text? I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was aiming for. The draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I don't see any list traffic asking for that. Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There seems to be nearly no implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none that have spoken up about it. >> Use of the ASN.1 encoding >> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used >> within >> current IoT operating systems. The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to cite "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each implement its own ASN.1 stack. >> The group may later adopt alternate manifest >> formats using other serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). Why not let the WG decide which it wants? --Paul Hoffman From nobody Fri Nov 3 11:44:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E71D13FF42; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:44:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dB8Ecau0ZfD; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gcc01-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cy1gcc01on0103.outbound.protection.outlook.com [23.103.200.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F7A113FF43; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 11:43:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nist-gov; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=4gM7WgxIWb2FtaZTudPr552I5MxGeTKEwdK2EGal5i4=; b=HJ39K8AisRz+QAvpPmBul6ErM/yQIQs/r4nZ4measZuDsyiLY9HIYB6Iw5yH7c+/OyoligtKg+m6ep+7uHvi5SEeknAkRfJOvRHy0pxXQKB7eUKbkAxRxoc609oW1coqi8kTZCTo9ISAyiBdb7oSEtP2JS/NeVCOwrycB1m0doM= Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.141) by CY4PR09MB1494.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.197.13; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:43:58 +0000 Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) by CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) with mapi id 15.20.0197.013; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:43:58 +0000 From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" To: Paul Hoffman , The IESG CC: "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) Thread-Index: AQHTVMFRwLvJJm6/L02nsHYjmbMeoKMC7scAgAAD+YCAAAeHgA== Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:43:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=david.waltermire@nist.gov; x-originating-ip: [129.6.224.58] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY4PR09MB1494; 6:SCT+d1KWMNC/BG5di6Rkt9B9yATbJkfyW/AnfEPzeBFraWl2yhj1Hp40QxSxyVGVJFgYZDJ6IC3IekrUw42Ace0wZofwlGQsLuWsH5Y4+zn5HfxBIf7ZxazOF3/BiGd/k/iINkMheinfoUcVMeyVuNFHDPK+VhEkIuOxJQgS2eQTAtX80Z3Idmyi7IuRUhmf3xLO04aJXWkzf3RH0AWc5pA/T94v0pfX7vVv/xRJkZfKlDpELm+cmL/L4ZSseIGbdc75V8PHv4xNVRPffBAlsfu7kb7EYp9IL92/OwuZ9biqxS1wGjsj56C/Nb5GrinAfEjW1eA16uqKvEKQf8ue/0FZAz1NmYnPVVlMi5KiUH8=; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR09MB1494; H:CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nist.gov does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9989f958-a50f-4c6f-074d-08d522ead7d4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Nov 2017 18:43:58.0700 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR09MB1494 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 18:44:02 -0000 UGF1bCBhbmQgQ2Fyc3RlbiwNCg0KTXkgY29tbWVudHMgYXJlIGlubGluZSBiZWxvdy4NCg0KPiA+ PiBUaGUgaW5pdGlhbCBmb2N1cyBvZiB0aGlzIGdyb3VwIHdpbGwgYmUgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgb2Yg YSBtYW5pZmVzdA0KPiA+PiBhcHByb2FjaCBiYXNlZCBvbiBDTVMgYW5kIHRoZSBBU04uMSBlbmNv ZGluZy4gVGhpcyB3b3JrIHdpbGwgcmVzdWx0DQo+ID4+IGluIGEgcmV2aXNpb24gb2YgUkZDIDQx MDggdGhhdCByZWZsZWN0cyB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBiZXN0IHByYWN0aWNlcy4NCj4gDQo+ID4gSeKA mW0gc2xpZ2h0bHkgY29uZnVzZWQgYnkgdGhpcyBjaGFydGVyIHByb3Bvc2FsLg0KPiA+IFRoZSBy ZWNlbnQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IGRpc2N1c3Npb24gd2VudCBpbnRvIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IGRpcmVj dGlvbi4NCj4gPiBJcyB0aGlzIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IHByb3Bvc2VkIHRleHQ/DQo+IA0KPiBJIGFn cmVlIHdpdGggQ2Fyc3RlbjogdGhhdCdzIG5vdCB3aGF0IHRoZSByZWNlbnQgbGlzdCB0cmFmZmlj IHdhcyBhaW1pbmcgZm9yLiBUaGUNCj4gZHJhZnQgY2hhcnRlciBmcm9tIGEgbW9udGggYWdvIGRp ZG4ndCBmb3JjZSB0aGUgV0cgaW50byBBU04uMSwgYW5kIEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlDQo+IGFueSBsaXN0 IHRyYWZmaWMgYXNraW5nIGZvciB0aGF0Lg0KDQpUaGUgZ3VpZGFuY2Ugd2UgcmVjZWl2ZWQgZnJv bSB0aGUgSUVTRyBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZXkgd2FudCB0aGUgcXVlc3Rpb24gYXJvdW5kIG9uZSBvciBt b3JlIGZvcm1hdHMgcmVzb2x2ZWQgZHVyaW5nIHRoZSBjaGFydGVyaW5nIHByb2Nlc3MuIFdlIGhh dmUgaGFkIGEgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHZpZXdzIGV4cHJlc3NlZCBvbiB0aGUgbGlzdC4gV2UgbmVlZCB0 byBmb2N1cyBpbiBvbiB3aGF0IHRoZSBjb25zZW5zdXMgd2l0aGluIHRoZSBncm91cCBpcy4gV2Ug bmVlZCB0byBpZGVudGlmeSB3aGF0IG91ciBpbml0aWFsIHdvcmsgaXRlbXMgd2lsbCBiZSByZWdh cmRpbmcgZm9ybWF0KHMpLg0KDQpUbyB0aGF0IGVuZCwgdGhpcyB0ZXh0IGNhbiBiZSB1cGRhdGVk LiBEbyB5b3UgaGF2ZSBhbHRlcm5hdGUgdGV4dCB0byBwcm9wb3NlPw0KDQo+IEFsc286IGlzIFJG QyA0MTA4IHJlYWxseSBhICJjdXJyZW50IGJlc3QgcHJhY3RpY2UiPyBUaGVyZSBzZWVtcyB0byBi ZSBuZWFybHkgbm8NCj4gaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIG9mIHRoYXQgaW4gdGhlIElvVCBzcGFjZSwg b3IgYXQgbGVhc3Qgbm9uZSB0aGF0IGhhdmUgc3Bva2VuIHVwDQo+IGFib3V0IGl0Lg0KPiANCj4g Pj4gVXNlIG9mIHRoZSBBU04uMSBlbmNvZGluZw0KPiA+PiBpcyBkZXNpcmFibGUgZHVlIHRvIGV4 aXN0aW5nIEFTTi4xIHN1cHBvcnQgaW4gY3J5cHRvIGxpYnJhcmllcyB1c2VkDQo+ID4+IHdpdGhp biBjdXJyZW50IElvVCBvcGVyYXRpbmcgc3lzdGVtcy4NCj4gDQo+IFRoZSBzYW1lIGNvdWxkIGJl IHNhaWQgZm9yIENCT1IvQ09TRS4gSXQgaXMgcHJvYmFibHkgaW5hY2N1cmF0ZSB0byBjaXRlDQo+ ICJBU04uMSBzdXBwb3J0IiBnaXZlbiB0aGF0IGRpZmZlcmVudCBwYXJ0cyBvZiBhIHN5c3RlbSBt aWdodCBlYWNoIGltcGxlbWVudCBpdHMNCj4gb3duIEFTTi4xIHN0YWNrLg0KDQpIb3cgd291bGQg eW91IGNoYW5nZSB0aGlzIHRleHQgdG8gaW1wcm92ZSBpdD8NCg0KPiA+PiBUaGUgZ3JvdXAgbWF5 IGxhdGVyIGFkb3B0IGFsdGVybmF0ZSBtYW5pZmVzdCBmb3JtYXRzIHVzaW5nIG90aGVyDQo+ID4+ IHNlcmlhbGl6YXRpb24gYXBwcm9hY2hlcyAoZS5nLiwgQ0JPUikuDQo+IA0KPiBXaHkgbm90IGxl dCB0aGUgV0cgZGVjaWRlIHdoaWNoIGl0IHdhbnRzPw0KDQpUaGlzIHN0YXRlbWVudCBpcyBpbnRl bmRlZCB0byBkbyB0aGF0LiBXZSBuZWVkIHRvIGZpZ3VyZSBvdXQgd2hhdCB3ZSBhcmUgd29ya2lu ZyBvbiBpbml0aWFsbHkgYW5kIHJlZmxlY3QgdGhhdCBpbiB0aGUgY2hhcnRlciBhbmQgbWlsZXN0 b25lcy4gQXJlIHlvdSBzdWdnZXN0aW5nIHRoYXQgdGhlIHRleHQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIG1hZGUgbW9y ZSBjbGVhcj8gSWYgc28sIHRoZW4gaG93Pw0KDQo+IA0KPiAtLVBhdWwgSG9mZm1hbg0KDQpUaGFu a3MsDQpEYXZlDQo= From nobody Fri Nov 3 11:51:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDEB13FF3B for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=dIQa2hWHngSN/ls6ccxRdCKtHTl/YplCedLTXGi4DK0=; b=hNY9iPXEEIF7CXsJ8NxPex86tnYmm4kIQzQzb4a70f1kTcTCwd2OH27PnBMG+wG9LL1g9m9YTF8A/9Qdq8fQyMCw8FFOSCFqnaM8zEsLqJLO+cIN+J7wsbhsOrnbJFDmbSab1vvAxaLon4/Ec1T8/ceZ/rBOO1FGObNDdniErqM= Received: from CY4PR21MB0856.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.173.192.145) by CY4PR21MB0693.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.175.121.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.20.218.2; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:51:02 +0000 Received: from CY4PR21MB0856.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.192.145]) by CY4PR21MB0856.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.192.145]) with mapi id 15.20.0218.004; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:51:01 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: "suit@ietf.org" CC: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" Thread-Topic: Notetaker and jabber scribe Thread-Index: AdNU1IR0DzyGN83xRFaulYtahQWBBg== Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:51:01 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2001:4898:80e8:9::51b] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY4PR21MB0693; 6:UrZ82Ng9IdgDg8GN3xZEFofao/FnQoXoHllbOkfwVBhfsF7f0Vht3npkq+vvC049vU/EtKLCfHTgmgrDvF89QALYogupKjPPJ2GNV75C4GyMSFcBPWFCn/XUAdi1NdcPVYCzMv89U5Ng5jhUP6Y4IKxQW50TVuMn0ekiYhqPi0KHbty5LQe4rfJnbkzCQryLLgNawmW8wgtSZAtFeNv+Cs3PyqxPmapmU5vUapP4FDb2mYaxIJE4+/Sa1nB341yrTwhsp16uCo76uZ79uupFzIvOF3a5foavKwG8Lnrt0YxKvU4tnX3q+cn5w1EkNuVtANNR7nTGST/TRxzLylo8mWElIGdHLQY/LRsc/h9C0CY=; 5:vFs470DcP71TR9FPvx8DOdHmjTVtoqFEq1rlp5pov0W1x4cLxz5VTJHV9ELXN0STTK4t7+Jh8U5xRtc6aNzjEw1PrLhzvTdphJy26dBOanJj/+jeFFsjacgK6pFiX0KszLtWFQjgju8Nststi17ttqgX9+0G1pvrs6u73ze/HNY=; 24:3+EmZScd51WNdhI/Rx/T2hFu4zzseiggHoV8TiUFwCZ754HreKl/i0F38DtMZzK06gBNBOULgELbN4FgYWSl2hLrbQ3wwjZi+arYZSkOoCQ=; 7:czUgWe35KUq/QHLoBS/E/XsoEviVMkoLK3afDkiX0HA8cG9QeYkHTryas6Yob5aIu/xAyR9SoFuWlq43dlxVB7ZyCdKG9XhpVabHQ1chCf1Y8xDbAFQftIVSBrYLI7zuDIRO05OVzSczNNVlZbb+glF5+w+O15RaCqYGdmEtyCF3zMThURpNIvdHaXAveo+7L6cKDAwPwqo2GmN3rfYT8NEzYwxpUmTQr/9dVbVZaMemZ52J+d0Yr0rSGQvpmf1k x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 97c2816a-45fd-4849-1313-08d522ebd470 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(48565401081)(4534020)(4602075)(4627115)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(2017052603240); SRVR:CY4PR21MB0693; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR21MB0693: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(21748063052155); x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000700101)(100105000095)(100000701101)(100105300095)(100000702101)(100105100095)(61425038)(6040450)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(3231021)(10201501046)(93006095)(93001095)(100000703101)(100105400095)(3002001)(6055026)(61426038)(61427038)(6041248)(20161123558100)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123560025)(20161123562025)(20161123555025)(20161123564025)(6072148)(201708071742011)(100000704101)(100105200095)(100000705101)(100105500095); SRVR:CY4PR21MB0693; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000800101)(100110000095)(100000801101)(100110300095)(100000802101)(100110100095)(100000803101)(100110400095)(100000804101)(100110200095)(100000805101)(100110500095); SRVR:CY4PR21MB0693; x-forefront-prvs: 0480A51D4A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(979002)(6009001)(376002)(346002)(39860400002)(47760400005)(189002)(199003)(25786009)(50986999)(105586002)(54356999)(2351001)(9686003)(478600001)(106356001)(10290500003)(97736004)(101416001)(53936002)(33656002)(3280700002)(2906002)(7696004)(4326008)(22452003)(2501003)(316002)(54896002)(6306002)(5660300001)(6916009)(3660700001)(14454004)(77096006)(8676002)(6436002)(68736007)(86362001)(5640700003)(8990500004)(10090500001)(189998001)(86612001)(2900100001)(790700001)(3480700004)(8936002)(5630700001)(55016002)(74316002)(6116002)(558084003)(7736002)(102836003)(8656006)(6506006)(99286004)(81156014)(1730700003)(81166006)(969003)(989001)(999001)(1009001)(1019001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR21MB0693; H:CY4PR21MB0856.namprd21.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=dthaler@microsoft.com; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY4PR21MB0856B450302BE103100D2989A35D0CY4PR21MB0856namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 97c2816a-45fd-4849-1313-08d522ebd470 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 03 Nov 2017 18:51:01.7848 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR21MB0693 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Notetaker and jabber scribe X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 18:51:22 -0000 --_000_CY4PR21MB0856B450302BE103100D2989A35D0CY4PR21MB0856namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The SUIT BoF is now just over one week away. Do we have any volunteers who= would be willing to be either a note taker or a jabber scribe? If so, please send email to the BoF chairs (Dave and Dave). Dave Thaler --_000_CY4PR21MB0856B450302BE103100D2989A35D0CY4PR21MB0856namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The SUIT BoF is now just over one week away.  D= o we have any volunteers who would be willing to be

either a note taker or a jabber scribe?

 

If so, please send email to the BoF chairs (Dave and= Dave).

 

Dave Thaler

 

--_000_CY4PR21MB0856B450302BE103100D2989A35D0CY4PR21MB0856namp_-- From nobody Fri Nov 3 22:17:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE32213FB41 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:17:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=talasecure-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJUSHBInotfC for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6F0113FB45 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x233.google.com with SMTP id m16so10567765iod.1 for ; Fri, 03 Nov 2017 22:17:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=talasecure-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pTLj8xn6rAc6HWwiXv3HgCiILn8e9AF5NFSO6+pwwOo=; b=Uo/kKCqZ4wFXliucsh6/IcQVZcqvkcUdifjuF7ZupgWomzVK3GNmV2EK3dPoW9WZw9 8tDxucL0jqZUSgrAo6O8z8tFOgw/vOL5I8deVkbMs7P8PWK86Qq9cJczael0Jjtjocc7 8sfMGrgva0nEfnv1LWy+jqgjXY2Q9F8e6CD8p/yUw89Yz9Vsu23zg6vsG1DGbz9diInT nSZrWA6q6v8TxDve6H/IyRpSKqPoTYY2bDe2x0AMOKswIJXn5nBs7nVwHacXjIUjvMXE qwI7SyvNmVxUg4za/v0GkGBHnhGRaeFrwvtpemOCuswlYl5dBuIirVJSvj1IdSPWVReH WxdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=pTLj8xn6rAc6HWwiXv3HgCiILn8e9AF5NFSO6+pwwOo=; b=U85BeHIOyTmrsMOrwjZzRyRSYybHxix6fdSq02REtxPXtYTGS8R689WGggf7xZtLrA paywOdvsq6sT+65OBnwYMeMrctOXnYpRrMngP6GD4Dox05H8eqVeI8Cey0NXA28pEhNC RlckL3T37qQUT9YR8+fYbnjvpIcRW4a/KtjiPJtFoh2cwUd1HvaRIuTWCMvKWAK6/lXm hDmK9r0XW4kkC/sOnCqetNiB0aoGaYYuQNvceMFOrpIPcfHzcjlxieXDDl3m0s64s/nF m6RnmdfEAAeP/j1Sru/6nte0aof4SSZfauFP1B0/5CxfAWBVsn5sMupEjLgzO2LEYD7e EfsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVNCrfvwNnwi5nWERnG6KkdRTRxysAhPhS3nnZNusx5cHtoyHtQ qBr3EOZv11xIogIdZnvAMZSR3MBLMpcF5Tzc3+NUuMBfRvk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QhewWjGuGofAZL5eYC0gzqAdxoWq+H66s8r3NBSi9qNpsA9y5iYQdqXvDQVbQdo6bjW7MO5r7/2Uef+E1Fm1s= X-Received: by 10.107.37.143 with SMTP id l137mr11762137iol.104.1509772631031; Fri, 03 Nov 2017 22:17:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.5.196 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:17:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Rajesh Kanungo Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:47:10 +0530 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11402b185d5768055d2155b4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 05:17:15 -0000 --001a11402b185d5768055d2155b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2 questions and a comment: Question: Any idea about the timestamp start, granularity, end? Question about signatures: would you consider a more structured signature field? Something like: https://github.com/multiformats/multihash fn code dig size hash digest -------- -------- ------------------------------------ 00010001 00000100 101101100 11111000 01011100 10110101 sha1 4 bytes 4 byte sha1 digest Comment: > Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There seems to be nearly no implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none that have spoken up about it. I don't know if it is a current best practice or not but I introduced CMS as a method to update Itron's smart electricity meters over the air roughly 6 years ago. There are probably 20 million of them out there by now and counting. CMS allows one feature that I really liked: co-signing. This allows a firmware update to be co-signed by an operator so that the devices would accept only firmware approved by the operator (e.g. Utility) . Many times, the operator would test out a manufacturer signed firmware update in their own setup, work with the manufacturer to fix any issues, then co-sign the firmware before distribution. The target device would only accept utility signed firmware ... CMS also allows customers to use standard OpenSSL tools to examine the contents of the payload. However: There is no reason the proposed format can't be nested to provide the above properties especially if the manufacturer's signed firmware release is not re-encrypted. Hence, even though I used CMS, I think it is overkill for smaller limited devices. Rajesh ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Paul Hoffman To: The IESG Cc: suit@ietf.org Bcc: Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 11:04:03 -0700 Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) On 3 Nov 2017, at 10:49, Carsten Bormann wrote: The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest approach >> based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result in a revision >> of >> RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. >> > I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. > The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. > Is this the current proposed text? > I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was aiming for. The draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I don't see any list traffic asking for that. Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There seems to be nearly no implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none that have spoken up about it. Use of the ASN.1 encoding >> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used with= in >> current IoT operating systems. >> > The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to cite "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each implement its own ASN.1 stack. The group may later adopt alternate manifest >> formats using other serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). >> > Why not let the WG decide which it wants? --Paul Hoffman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" To: Paul Hoffman , The IESG Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Bcc: Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:43:57 +0000 Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) Paul and Carsten, My comments are inline below. > >> The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest > >> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result > >> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. > > > I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. > > The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. > > Is this the current proposed text? > > I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was aiming for. The > draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I don't see > any list traffic asking for that. The guidance we received from the IESG is that they want the question around one or more formats resolved during the chartering process. We have had a number of views expressed on the list. We need to focus in on what the consensus within the group is. We need to identify what our initial work items will be regarding format(s). To that end, this text can be updated. Do you have alternate text to propose? > Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There seems to be nearly no > implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none that have spoken up > about it. > > >> Use of the ASN.1 encoding > >> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used > >> within current IoT operating systems. > > The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to cite > "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each implement its > own ASN.1 stack. How would you change this text to improve it? > >> The group may later adopt alternate manifest formats using other > >> serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). > > Why not let the WG decide which it wants? This statement is intended to do that. We need to figure out what we are working on initially and reflect that in the charter and milestones. Are you suggesting that the text should be made more clear? If so, then how? > > --Paul Hoffman Thanks, Dave ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dave Thaler To: "suit@ietf.org" Cc: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" Bcc: Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:51:01 +0000 Subject: [Suit] Notetaker and jabber scribe The SUIT BoF is now just over one week away. Do we have any volunteers who would be willing to be either a note taker or a jabber scribe? If so, please send email to the BoF chairs (Dave and Dave). Dave Thaler _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit --=20 Rajesh Kanungo President and CTO TalaSecure, Inc. (408) 431-3035 --001a11402b185d5768055d2155b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2 questions and a comment:

Question: = Any idea about the timestamp start, granularity, end?=C2=A0=C2=A0

Question about = signatures: would you consider a more structured signature field? Something= like:=C2=A0
https://github.com/multiformats/multihash

fn c=
ode  dig size hash digest
-------- -------- ------------------------------------
00010001 00000100 101101100 11111000 01011100 10110101
sha1     4 bytes  4 byte sha1 digest

Comment:

> Also: is RFC 4108 reall= y a "current best practice"? There seems to be nearly no implemen= tations of that in the IoT space, or at least none that have spoken up abou= t it.

= I don't know if it is a current best practice or not but I introduced C= MS as a method to update Itron's smart electricity meters over the air = roughly 6 years ago. There are probably 20 million of them out there by now= and counting.=C2=A0=C2=A0

CMS allows one feature that I really liked:=C2=A0 co-s= igning.=C2=A0 This allows a firmware update to be co-signed by an operator = so that the devices would accept only firmware approved by the operator (e.= g. Utility) .=C2=A0 Many times, the operator would test out a manufacturer = signed firmware update in their own setup, work with the manufacturer to fi= x any issues, then co-sign the firmware before distribution.=C2=A0 The targ= et device would only accept utility signed firmware ...

CMS also allows customers= to use standard OpenSSL tools to examine the contents of the payload.

However:
There is no reason the proposed format can&#= 39;t be nested to provide the above properties especially if the manufactur= er's signed firmware release is not re-encrypted.=C2=A0 Hence, even tho= ugh I used CMS, I think it is overkill for smaller limited devices.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

Rajesh


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Paul Hoffman &l= t;paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>To:=C2=A0The IESG <iesg@ietf.org&g= t;
Cc:=C2=A0suit@ietf.org
Bcc:= =C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri, 03 Nov 2017 11:04:03 -0700
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [= Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit)
On 3 Nov= 2017, at 10:49, Carsten Bormann wrote:

The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest approach<= br> based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result in a revision of=
RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices.

I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal.
The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction.
Is this the current proposed text?

I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was aimin= g for. The draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.= 1, and I don't see any list traffic asking for that.

Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There seems t= o be nearly no implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none t= hat have spoken up about it.

Use of the ASN.1 encoding
is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used within<= br> current IoT operating systems.

The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to cite &qu= ot;ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each im= plement its own ASN.1 stack.

The group may later adopt alternate manifest
formats using other serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR).

Why not let the WG decide which it wants?

--Paul Hoffman




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0"Walterm= ire, David A. (Fed)" <= david.waltermire@nist.gov>
To:=C2=A0Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc:=C2=A0"suit@ietf.org" <suit@ietf.org>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri, 3 Nov= 2017 18:43:57 +0000
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Update= s for Internet of Things (suit)
Paul and Carsten,

My comments are inline below.

> >> The initial focus of this group will be development of a mani= fest
> >> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will = result
> >> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best prac= tices.
>
> > I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal.
> > The recent mailing list discussion went into a different directio= n.
> > Is this the current proposed text?
>
> I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was = aiming for. The
> draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and= I don't see
> any list traffic asking for that.

The guidance we received from the IESG is that they want the question aroun= d one or more formats resolved during the chartering process. We have had a= number of views expressed on the list. We need to focus in on what the con= sensus within the group is. We need to identify what our initial work items= will be regarding format(s).

To that end, this text can be updated. Do you have alternate text to propos= e?

> Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There se= ems to be nearly no
> implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none that have s= poken up
> about it.
>
> >> Use of the ASN.1 encoding
> >> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto librarie= s used
> >> within current IoT operating systems.
>
> The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to cit= e
> "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might= each implement its
> own ASN.1 stack.

How would you change this text to improve it?

> >> The group may later adopt alternate manifest formats using ot= her
> >> serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR).
>
> Why not let the WG decide which it wants?

This statement is intended to do that. We need to figure out what we are wo= rking on initially and reflect that in the charter and milestones. Are you = suggesting that the text should be made more clear? If so, then how?

>
> --Paul Hoffman

Thanks,
Dave


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Dave Thaler &= lt;dthaler@microsoft.com>To:=C2=A0"suit@ietf.org" &= lt;suit@ietf.org>
Cc:=C2=A0"= ;Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date:=C2=A0Fri, = 3 Nov 2017 18:51:01 +0000
Subject:=C2=A0[Suit] Notetaker and jabber scri= be

The SUIT BoF is now just over one week away.=C2=A0 D= o we have any volunteers who would be willing to be

either a note taker or a jabber scribe?

=C2=A0

If so, please send email to the BoF chairs (Dave and= Dave).

=C2=A0

Dave Thaler

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit




--
Rajesh Kanungo
Preside= nt and CTO
TalaSecure, Inc.
(408) 431-3035
<= /div>
--001a11402b185d5768055d2155b4-- From nobody Fri Nov 3 22:26:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A9213FB47 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:26:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=augustcellars.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7hDWQB0L16LA for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail4.augustcellars.com (augustcellars.com [50.45.239.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EA4513FB45 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01D354F2.BD84C450" Content-Language: en-us DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=augustcellars.com; s=winery; c=simple/simple; t=1509773169; h=from:subject:to:date:message-id; bh=FUp64SklV16edLio0COJSzqF3eVOsN1XU6oJ5kuz+Rs=; b=T2N0Ed0igpwiX/CrVnCqkTSmPc0bsFlRCHZK+enwxMduymuynhsO/zhhmrWeFnkMj96ZWodwEPU YSvdyMDC3YWN7TSU2QTetJDDbSCbaqVEGxxdQyviydq3Ch9PP1PMLR4nWQm95Q92n55jspGLMfJc3 h7e46VLIu5d562C6e4+EyaJG0JnOGsfnI1U+Qo2JhivO+cZdKoW+4PlJBlxfbjaFV5atiS8MvNLVS sCkObHULCBEb+DV0JNg1IHiAxQqVClRebu7mxh+ehFqdQEK7ilsOFVROY33rRoyOB3rcGj4gu3YXZ 6BF4LBOxxYZCWxZaBZ/mr9x2vPIFqCgG+lag== Received: from mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.201) by mail4.augustcellars.com (192.168.1.153) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:26:08 -0700 Received: from Hebrews (73.180.8.170) by mail2.augustcellars.com (192.168.0.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:25:06 -0700 From: Jim Schaad To: 'Rajesh Kanungo' , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 22:26:03 -0700 Message-ID: <002d01d3552d$69ddcff0$3d996fd0$@augustcellars.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQH3NfPW6ulKKe0VzLZGS5srUnH6E6K77jjg X-Originating-IP: [73.180.8.170] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 05:26:16 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01D354F2.BD84C450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rajesh Kanungo Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 10:17 PM To: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things = (suit) =20 2 questions and a comment: =20 Question: Any idea about the timestamp start, granularity, end? =20 =20 Question about signatures: would you consider a more structured = signature field? Something like:=20 https://github.com/multiformats/multihash =20 fn code dig size hash digest -------- -------- ------------------------------------ 00010001 00000100 101101100 11111000 01011100 10110101 sha1 4 bytes 4 byte sha1 digest =20 =20 [JLS] I am not sure what you think you are going to get from this. What = is the end goal you are asking for. =20 Comment: =20 > Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There seems to be = nearly no implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none = that have spoken up about it. =20 I don't know if it is a current best practice or not but I introduced = CMS as a method to update Itron's smart electricity meters over the air = roughly 6 years ago. There are probably 20 million of them out there by = now and counting. =20 =20 CMS allows one feature that I really liked: co-signing. This allows a = firmware update to be co-signed by an operator so that the devices would = accept only firmware approved by the operator (e.g. Utility) . Many = times, the operator would test out a manufacturer signed firmware update = in their own setup, work with the manufacturer to fix any issues, then = co-sign the firmware before distribution. The target device would only = accept utility signed firmware ... =20 [JLS] You will be happy to know that this is natively supported by COSE = =E2=80=93 either as a co-signature or a counter-signature just like CMS. =20 Jim =20 =20 CMS also allows customers to use standard OpenSSL tools to examine the = contents of the payload. =20 However: There is no reason the proposed format can't be nested to provide the = above properties especially if the manufacturer's signed firmware = release is not re-encrypted. Hence, even though I used CMS, I think it = is overkill for smaller limited devices. =20 =20 Rajesh =20 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Paul Hoffman = > To: The IESG > Cc: suit@ietf.org =20 Bcc:=20 Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 11:04:03 -0700 Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things = (suit) On 3 Nov 2017, at 10:49, Carsten Bormann wrote: The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest = approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result in a revision = of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. =20 I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. Is this the current proposed text? I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was aiming = for. The draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, = and I don't see any list traffic asking for that. Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There seems to be = nearly no implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none = that have spoken up about it. Use of the ASN.1 encoding is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used = within current IoT operating systems. The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to cite = "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each = implement its own ASN.1 stack. The group may later adopt alternate manifest formats using other serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). Why not let the WG decide which it wants? --Paul Hoffman ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" > To: Paul Hoffman = >, The IESG > Cc: "suit@ietf.org " > Bcc:=20 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:43:57 +0000 Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things = (suit) Paul and Carsten, My comments are inline below. > >> The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest > >> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result > >> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. > > > I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. > > The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. > > Is this the current proposed text? > > I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was = aiming for. The > draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I = don't see > any list traffic asking for that. The guidance we received from the IESG is that they want the question = around one or more formats resolved during the chartering process. We = have had a number of views expressed on the list. We need to focus in on = what the consensus within the group is. We need to identify what our = initial work items will be regarding format(s). To that end, this text can be updated. Do you have alternate text to = propose? > Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best practice"? There seems to be = nearly no > implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none that have = spoken up > about it. > > >> Use of the ASN.1 encoding > >> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used > >> within current IoT operating systems. > > The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to = cite > "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each = implement its > own ASN.1 stack. How would you change this text to improve it? > >> The group may later adopt alternate manifest formats using other > >> serialization approaches (e.g., CBOR). > > Why not let the WG decide which it wants? This statement is intended to do that. We need to figure out what we are = working on initially and reflect that in the charter and milestones. Are = you suggesting that the text should be made more clear? If so, then how? > > --Paul Hoffman Thanks, Dave ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dave Thaler = > To: "suit@ietf.org " > Cc: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" > Bcc:=20 Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:51:01 +0000 Subject: [Suit] Notetaker and jabber scribe The SUIT BoF is now just over one week away. Do we have any volunteers = who would be willing to be either a note taker or a jabber scribe? =20 If so, please send email to the BoF chairs (Dave and Dave). =20 Dave Thaler =20 _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org =20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit =20 --=20 Rajesh Kanungo President and CTO TalaSecure, Inc. (408) 431-3035 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01D354F2.BD84C450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

 

From: Suit = [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rajesh = Kanungo
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2017 10:17 PM
To: = suit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates = for Internet of Things (suit)

 

2 = questions and a comment:

 

Question: Any idea about the timestamp start, = granularity, end?  

 

Question about signatures: would you consider a more = structured signature field? Something = like: 

 

fn code=C2=A0 dig size hash =
digest
-------- -------- =
------------------------------------
00010001 00000100 101101100 11111000 01011100 =
10110101
sha1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4 bytes=C2=A0 4 byte =
sha1 digest

 

 

[JLS] I am not sure what you think you are going = to get from this.=C2=A0 What is the end goal you are asking = for.

 

Comment:

 

> Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best = practice"? There seems to be nearly no implementations of that in = the IoT space, or at least none that have spoken up about = it.

 

I = don't know if it is a current best practice or not but I introduced CMS = as a method to update Itron's smart electricity meters over the air = roughly 6 years ago. There are probably 20 million of them out there by = now and counting.  

 

CMS allows one feature that I really liked:  = co-signing.  This allows a firmware update to be co-signed by an = operator so that the devices would accept only firmware approved by the = operator (e.g. Utility) .  Many times, the operator would test out = a manufacturer signed firmware update in their own setup, work with the = manufacturer to fix any issues, then co-sign the firmware before = distribution.  The target device would only accept utility signed = firmware ...

 

[JLS] You will be happy = to know that this is natively supported by COSE =E2=80=93 either as a = co-signature or a counter-signature just like = CMS.

 

Jim

 

 

CMS also allows customers to use standard OpenSSL = tools to examine the contents of the = payload.

 

However:

There is no reason the proposed format can't be nested = to provide the above properties especially if the manufacturer's signed = firmware release is not re-encrypted.  Hence, even though I used = CMS, I think it is overkill for smaller limited = devices.  

 

Rajesh

 


---------- Forwarded message = ----------
From: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
To= : The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: suit@ietf.org
Bcc: 
Date:&nb= sp;Fri, 03 Nov 2017 11:04:03 -0700
Subject: Re: [Suit] WG = Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit)
On 3 Nov 2017, = at 10:49, Carsten Bormann wrote:

The = initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest = approach
based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result = in a revision of
RFC 4108 that reflects the current best = practices.

 

I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter = proposal.
The recent mailing list discussion went into a different = direction.
Is this the current proposed = text?


I agree with Carsten: that's not what = the recent list traffic was aiming for. The draft charter from a month = ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I don't see any list traffic = asking for that.

Also: is RFC 4108 really a "current best = practice"? There seems to be nearly no implementations of that in = the IoT space, or at least none that have spoken up about = it.

Use of = the ASN.1 encoding
is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in = crypto libraries used within
current IoT operating = systems.


The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. = It is probably inaccurate to cite "ASN.1 support" given that = different parts of a system might each implement its own ASN.1 = stack.

The group = may later adopt alternate manifest
formats using other serialization = approaches (e.g., CBOR).


Why not let the WG decide which it = wants?

--Paul Hoffman




---------- Forwarded = message ----------
From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" = <david.waltermire@nist.gov&g= t;
To: Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>, The = IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" <suit@ietf.org>
Bcc: 
Date= : Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:43:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [Suit] WG = Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit)
Paul and = Carsten,

My comments are inline below.

> >> The = initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest
> = >> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will = result
> >> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the = current best practices.
>
> > I=E2=80=99m slightly = confused by this charter proposal.
> > The recent mailing list = discussion went into a different direction.
> > Is this the = current proposed text?
>
> I agree with Carsten: that's not = what the recent list traffic was aiming for. The
> draft charter = from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I don't see
> = any list traffic asking for that.

The guidance we received from = the IESG is that they want the question around one or more formats = resolved during the chartering process. We have had a number of views = expressed on the list. We need to focus in on what the consensus within = the group is. We need to identify what our initial work items will be = regarding format(s).

To that end, this text can be updated. Do = you have alternate text to propose?

> Also: is RFC 4108 really = a "current best practice"? There seems to be nearly no
> = implementations of that in the IoT space, or at least none that have = spoken up
> about it.
>
> >> Use of the ASN.1 = encoding
> >> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in = crypto libraries used
> >> within current IoT operating = systems.
>
> The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is = probably inaccurate to cite
> "ASN.1 support" given that = different parts of a system might each implement its
> own ASN.1 = stack.

How would you change this text to improve it?

> = >> The group may later adopt alternate manifest formats using = other
> >> serialization approaches (e.g., = CBOR).
>
> Why not let the WG decide which it = wants?

This statement is intended to do that. We need to figure = out what we are working on initially and reflect that in the charter and = milestones. Are you suggesting that the text should be made more clear? = If so, then how?

>
> --Paul = Hoffman

Thanks,
Dave


---------- Forwarded message = ----------
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To= : "suit@ietf.org" = <suit@ietf.org>
Cc: "Wal= termire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov&g= t;
Bcc: 
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2017 18:51:01 = +0000
Subject: [Suit] Notetaker and jabber = scribe

The SUIT = BoF is now just over one week away.  Do we have any volunteers who = would be willing to be

either a = note taker or a jabber scribe?

 <= /o:p>

If so, = please send email to the BoF chairs (Dave and Dave).

 <= /o:p>

Dave = Thaler

 <= /o:p>


______________________________________= _________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit



 

-- =

Rajesh = Kanungo

President and = CTO

TalaSecure, = Inc.

(408) = 431-3035

------=_NextPart_000_002E_01D354F2.BD84C450-- From nobody Sat Nov 4 04:02:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C56513FBA7 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 04:02:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iP4f_c1LAYop for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 04:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD08813FAE9 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 04:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vA4B27FO001641; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 12:02:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from pptp-218-1.informatik.uni-bremen.de (pptp-218-1.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yTbW31nrFzDXjn; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 12:02:07 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 12:02:05 +0100 Cc: suit@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 531486125.25622-91198e043d164c4b3b784fa9da1abfce Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <80676780-A83B-4DE8-93F4-2C0D78C8250E@tzi.org> References: To: Rajesh Kanungo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 11:02:14 -0000 On Nov 4, 2017, at 06:17, Rajesh Kanungo wrote: >=20 > one feature that I really liked: co-signing. This allows a firmware = update to be co-signed by an operator so that the devices would accept = only firmware approved by the operator (e.g. Utility) . Many times, the = operator would test out a manufacturer signed firmware update in their = own setup, work with the manufacturer to fix any issues, then co-sign = the firmware before distribution. The target device would only accept = utility signed firmware =E2=80=A6 Thank you for adding content here that leads us away from the format = wars. So basically, you have two signed claims: Issuer: manufacturer Subject: (the firmware) Claim: This firmware is appropriate for manufx model 0815 rev 4 to 17, = when equipped with 128 KiB of RAM Claim: This firmware provides feature set A, B, M Claim: This firmware has version 2.17.33 and replaces all numerically = smaller firmware versions Issuer: utility Subject: (the firmware) Claim: This firmware is appropriate for use in Wesernetz in eastern = Bremen, contract types 17, 32, and 38, installation types beta, gamma, = and ny. Claim: Do not replace 2.17.31 with this just yet, there is a bug in the = updater that will be worked around later. The authorization policy for the upgrade would check all these claims = for (authorized authentication and) the requirements that are specific = to the device/model and the installation/usage/contract type. Of course, a very constrained device would prefer to (also?) get one = claim from its authorization manager: Issuer: authorization manager Subject: (the firmware) Audience: You, the device Claim: This is good for you Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Nov 4 05:48:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4DCE13FB1F for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 05:48:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=talasecure-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jurxAq4pCu-m for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 05:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60A7F13F920 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 05:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id b186so11271749iof.8 for ; Sat, 04 Nov 2017 05:48:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=talasecure-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Nzh/uLjJa1iLljdoS1BHm4eVvrUEPoo0/Br650mLSW0=; b=ttkSGfePAvODzaY3aVWXi2eMOw1QZ1xFr92njQ5rMODE7KgMcjexNvZO0D5B25Sq4w YxGYcRvkCMiWIpWSgbrs0X8Y5VOtorlueHtoG29Dghy4Dtc4yzsJBXTiiscMPF+MWp/k wuf6ayEBhbOriDBLYvMP9U7XLGsk/GeM8JCB0D9v3VoY79fTbhhjkx54vczaz6XoQPOc 2StQBOXt+tuT+Zd5gOCGNpLYN9G7luZq9NmQmhqyI/Nq4pQj0JJnU1SbLv+X3Tmb5JSW A/fPQBWX2+q3xMhEzv9aVQoC16asN66UJilTLjNiv/riGDWfDGjTuzjvLKneHzh0rr/W bqEw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Nzh/uLjJa1iLljdoS1BHm4eVvrUEPoo0/Br650mLSW0=; b=LeuV4LlHjSUpFm/JEzbwSyEFnucVusmOpC23hAJ2DmrcUF/li83F4FH6Cv78QgYf2r vTzt1P2ux8AxPOjZO2fs3sm6Ypdo2Lo3+tfBhGIHgAHSXQvg9fO3Q+3/JeeuDahMatJM +Y1BMLwJ4Ud0utFpT938d6TtvuqgKLhqRT2fEc7XChiAkDjME0HB9Jfnhf3EIfbw8Z8M iHB16PuFU8U+ChHkaryy/qKDLKGlSYKzj6PgnXJH+P8EmUDK+89UDjCwStmOjGXT+kWY ElFP48OmZdc/gfapwj8r/iRfZXsZiT2VvL+up0VZqXaE5j7H2SeczibwLI6vk1OSazIY 98OQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaVaW8SN14/4VEansQJHyauJFs6M7wdSzrfWCvPiEUkeXRUTKwOj rHvHAluX/BNMzzf6Ipd6IbTUxM5WMeryyMazdqYypdQV X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QHtIgJ9ifCOUnukd/r+QMYAEaOYzTNaHupcc7VhGFAM3QfuTm/4SIkFuyYKLPLu6qLzLZmsvgplIfiL4uyeZw= X-Received: by 10.107.37.143 with SMTP id l137mr12747644iol.104.1509799711462; Sat, 04 Nov 2017 05:48:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.5.196 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 05:48:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <80676780-A83B-4DE8-93F4-2C0D78C8250E@tzi.org> References: <80676780-A83B-4DE8-93F4-2C0D78C8250E@tzi.org> From: Rajesh Kanungo Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 18:18:30 +0530 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11402b187bea1e055d27a3ef" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 12:48:35 -0000 --001a11402b187bea1e055d27a3ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable About Claims: JNLP allowed similar constraints but for JVM versions. Come to think f it, accidentally bricking a remote IoT device is high up on my list of worries. Your constraints definition is good. Questions: I am not clear about the signer's public key or certificate is matched to the signature. I am also not clear regarding how the signing public keys or certificates are distributed and/or revoked. Is that outside the scope of the document? Or am I just not reading the spec properly. Also, I am not clear if we can insert run some prescribed actions to be run before or after firmware installation. Rajesh On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Nov 4, 2017, at 06:17, Rajesh Kanungo wrote: > > > > one feature that I really liked: co-signing. This allows a firmware > update to be co-signed by an operator so that the devices would accept on= ly > firmware approved by the operator (e.g. Utility) . Many times, the > operator would test out a manufacturer signed firmware update in their ow= n > setup, work with the manufacturer to fix any issues, then co-sign the > firmware before distribution. The target device would only accept utilit= y > signed firmware =E2=80=A6 > > Thank you for adding content here that leads us away from the format wars= . > > So basically, you have two signed claims: > > Issuer: manufacturer > Subject: (the firmware) > Claim: This firmware is appropriate for manufx model 0815 rev 4 to 17, > when equipped with 128 KiB of RAM > Claim: This firmware provides feature set A, B, M > Claim: This firmware has version 2.17.33 and replaces all numerically > smaller firmware versions > > Issuer: utility > Subject: (the firmware) > Claim: This firmware is appropriate for use in Wesernetz in eastern > Bremen, contract types 17, 32, and 38, installation types beta, gamma, an= d > ny. > Claim: Do not replace 2.17.31 with this just yet, there is a bug in the > updater that will be worked around later. > > The authorization policy for the upgrade would check all these claims for > (authorized authentication and) the requirements that are specific to the > device/model and the installation/usage/contract type. > > Of course, a very constrained device would prefer to (also?) get one clai= m > from its authorization manager: > > Issuer: authorization manager > Subject: (the firmware) > Audience: You, the device > Claim: This is good for you > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --=20 Rajesh Kanungo President and CTO TalaSecure, Inc. (408) 431-3035 --001a11402b187bea1e055d27a3ef Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
About Claims:
JNLP allowed similar constraints but for= JVM versions.=C2=A0=C2=A0
Come to think f it, accidentally bricking a = remote IoT device is high up on my list of worries.=C2=A0 Your constraints = definition is good.=C2=A0

Questions:
I am not clear about the signer's public key or certificate is match= ed to the signature.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I am also not cle= ar regarding how the signing public keys or certificates are distributed an= d/or revoked.=C2=A0 Is that outside the scope of the document?=C2=A0 Or am = I just not reading the spec properly.

Also, I am n= ot clear if we can insert run some prescribed actions to be run before or a= fter firmware installation.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Rajesh


On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Carsten Bormann <= ;cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On Nov 4, 2017, at 06:17, Raje= sh Kanungo <rajesh@talasecure.c= om> wrote:
>
> one feature that I really liked:=C2=A0 co-signing.=C2=A0 This allows a= firmware update to be co-signed by an operator so that the devices would a= ccept only firmware approved by the operator (e.g. Utility) .=C2=A0 Many ti= mes, the operator would test out a manufacturer signed firmware update in t= heir own setup, work with the manufacturer to fix any issues, then co-sign = the firmware before distribution.=C2=A0 The target device would only accept= utility signed firmware =E2=80=A6

Thank you for adding content here that leads us away from the format wars.<= br>
So basically, you have two signed claims:

Issuer: manufacturer
Subject: (the firmware)
Claim: This firmware is appropriate for manufx model 0815 rev 4 to 17, when= equipped with 128 KiB of RAM
Claim: This firmware provides feature set A, B, M
Claim: This firmware has version 2.17.33 and replaces all numerically small= er firmware versions

Issuer: utility
Subject: (the firmware)
Claim: This firmware is appropriate for use in Wesernetz in eastern Bremen,= contract types 17, 32, and 38, installation types beta, gamma, and ny.
Claim: Do not replace 2.17.31 with this just yet, there is a bug in the upd= ater that will be worked around later.

The authorization policy for the upgrade would check all these claims for (= authorized authentication and) the requirements that are specific to the de= vice/model and the installation/usage/contract type.

Of course, a very constrained device would prefer to (also?) get one claim = from its authorization manager:

Issuer: authorization manager
Subject: (the firmware)
Audience: You, the device
Claim: This is good for you

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten




--
Rajesh Kanungo
President and CTO
TalaSecu= re, Inc.
(408) 431-3035
--001a11402b187bea1e055d27a3ef-- From nobody Sat Nov 4 06:11:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F2A013FB00 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 06:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ocZp66S41eOn for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 06:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F6B913FAF5 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 06:11:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.201.11]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vA4DBR6J017343; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 14:11:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from pptp-218-1.informatik.uni-bremen.de (pptp-218-1.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yTfNH0H7KzDXkS; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 14:11:26 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 14:11:26 +0100 Cc: suit@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 531493886.2081-ca8ec5f9a32378cca2233103ab3304a6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <88586B11-2277-4A8F-A529-0A198BCB60AC@tzi.org> References: <80676780-A83B-4DE8-93F4-2C0D78C8250E@tzi.org> To: Rajesh Kanungo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 13:11:33 -0000 On Nov 4, 2017, at 13:48, Rajesh Kanungo wrote: >=20 > I am not clear about the signer's public key or certificate is matched = to the signature. =20 I hand-waved over that as it is part of the =E2=80=9Cauthorized = authentication=E2=80=9D. I generally try to avoid thinking about these authorization problems in = terms of certificates, as these are a hammer that may not fit a specific = kind of workpiece (which may, after all, not be a nail). > I am also not clear regarding how the signing public keys or = certificates are distributed and/or revoked. Is that outside the scope = of the document? Or am I just not reading the spec properly. If you think in terms of certificates, that problem can somehow be = considered solved. But I think in general certificates are just one way to authorize = authentication, and we should cast a wider net here. If you don=E2=80=99t have (want to rely on) the authorization manager, = the device will need to be configured with some trusted information that = can be used to transitively authorize the authentication of the = manufacturer and the operator; authorization chains for these two can be = combined or kept separate. In your applications, do you have a secure real-time clock (i.e., can = you securely check not-before and expiration times)? That may help getting rid of older certificates, but it also means that = a firmware image that is delivered together with such certificates ages = out. Revocation can be done in a push (e.g., CRL) or a pull (e.g., OCSP or = token introspection) manner; CRLs are not really appropriate for = embedded devices. > Also, I am not clear if we can insert run some prescribed actions to = be run before or after firmware installation. =20 That sounds good and would need to be added to the signed claims. Is there a good way to specify these actions in a way that is somewhat = detached from a specific system or platform? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Nov 4 07:11:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DA4D13FBB4 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 07:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=talasecure-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z8dx9UOCvULv for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 07:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4209113FB00 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 07:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x234.google.com with SMTP id f20so11407461ioj.9 for ; Sat, 04 Nov 2017 07:11:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=talasecure-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rwp2frA1VwWaJZdMjo0EGmSz1zGtQc/R3wuhwQkhD10=; b=PTGyZukLoXoeEqyV7sk4rFXJijkQmTDDLGOdb5Ax+5fCpsNYaVKjh92T6OBelDpvhd k4GjDRm71eCdsuRUWIpP98P3+PSITMb3zczCVQh/sKo8QDAKmUs7UJTzuTQoDTYX6DFs JxZj7WY+lvHvfsTYjx8PW5D36QkczHYi1KX5TnwZKgfGGERJzv0/z+hx2EHvvzhum55L oILVe5pYvySdiWwM8nzKOzqJndG5eYkqELoFJjhLguy6Rf65mBgrvgKp+Glp5zLqxyfE tUX/KNIL07nTGL6ObBLbAi1LQ6XzQK38V/fqshxX5JuKvHQ8PRJD7qzAE5Lro2QAJrV6 t97A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rwp2frA1VwWaJZdMjo0EGmSz1zGtQc/R3wuhwQkhD10=; b=lDND8wHckkaPIj1ZTwbKediLWRed/g47NSDE/ICwPTP282HyBi1j2OspR325hNTklT vlMz41ndiv6eEe8hSVfEW7Nnjs94rXgiA7/+46gK+Q55dT/HF6tIMh4Z5V5XKLIg8nie V10lOvl9JTgy9HNJNrOkQtce+0PG9W4BbmGoudGwaWorvxL6iMIHYr7XhXrTIZCj7JZn Gc3wRyv40zVn70oq0nD9d1NCQ9/ecPLKSPcG2dgN98Zml6BcgqTN/seoB0KnMY3/Zc3d 8suca4KnzuBcYeIFpx8twkSzxR7TCk7JkgKdOxokh7cleKprwbb1arnNQbXjcieF8Vq/ jm/g== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5DRzJwuetAwyPAaIhL8zQxVo+qciXw5Z+cAYRomAIsbzlbbfGp OsEYpegADXlNpE9ChOcm3lsQTZO0nF7jk6APqVtUyQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+Qq3tjfU6BdhA1eFH6DU1HYABr7lCg94J1KOqBMlQ40cW92W0umIvxkoBgiDqRo96a96V/XzdUJuo66PUUoP4E= X-Received: by 10.107.10.82 with SMTP id u79mr13039125ioi.252.1509804688528; Sat, 04 Nov 2017 07:11:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.5.196 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 07:11:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <88586B11-2277-4A8F-A529-0A198BCB60AC@tzi.org> References: <80676780-A83B-4DE8-93F4-2C0D78C8250E@tzi.org> <88586B11-2277-4A8F-A529-0A198BCB60AC@tzi.org> From: Rajesh Kanungo Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:41:27 +0530 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113f9b4a23ea34055d28cc1c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 14:11:31 -0000 --001a113f9b4a23ea34055d28cc1c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Nov 4, 2017, at 13:48, Rajesh Kanungo wrote: > > > > I am not clear about the signer's public key or certificate is matched > to the signature. > > I hand-waved over that as it is part of the =E2=80=9Cauthorized authentic= ation=E2=80=9D. > > I generally try to avoid thinking about these authorization problems in > terms of certificates, as these are a hammer that may not fit a specific > kind of workpiece (which may, after all, not be a nail). > I had a simpler problem: A device may have 10 public keys. The firmware update arrives with a signature. How do you use the right public key to verify the signature? Remember that signature checks on these devices (especially energy limited devices) can have a small but not so insignificant drain. > > > I am also not clear regarding how the signing public keys or > certificates are distributed and/or revoked. Is that outside the scope o= f > the document? Or am I just not reading the spec properly. > > If you think in terms of certificates, that problem can somehow be > considered solved. > But I think in general certificates are just one way to authorize > authentication, and we should cast a wider net here. > > If you don=E2=80=99t have (want to rely on) the authorization manager, th= e device > will need to be configured with some trusted information that can be used > to transitively authorize the authentication of the manufacturer and the > operator; authorization chains for these two can be combined or kept > separate. > > In your applications, do you have a secure real-time clock (i.e., can you > securely check not-before and expiration times)? > That may help getting rid of older certificates, but it also means that a > firmware image that is delivered together with such certificates ages out= . > > Revocation can be done in a push (e.g., CRL) or a pull (e.g., OCSP or > token introspection) manner; CRLs are not really appropriate for embedded > devices. > Unfortunately turns out to be an issue if the headend gets compromised. Utilities have demanded this mechanism. We do need to revoke older keys and install new public keys. > > > Also, I am not clear if we can insert run some prescribed actions to be > run before or after firmware installation. > > That sounds good and would need to be added to the signed claims. > Is there a good way to specify these actions in a way that is somewhat > detached from a specific system or platform? > > The crudest thing is a reference to entries in table of actions. Fairly language independent. I said fairly because I can foresee format wars ... your favorite ... The installed firmware must support preinstall actions. The post install actions must be supported by the complete installed firmware. I doubt we can enforce transactional semantics in these devices. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --=20 Rajesh Kanungo President and CTO TalaSecure, Inc. (408) 431-3035 --001a113f9b4a23ea34055d28cc1c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org= > wrote:
On Nov 4, 2017, at= 13:48, Rajesh Kanungo <rajesh@= talasecure.com> wrote:
>
> I am not clear about the signer's public key or certificate is mat= ched to the signature.

I hand-waved over that as it is part of the =E2=80=9Cauthorized authenticat= ion=E2=80=9D.

I generally try to avoid thinking about these authorization problems in ter= ms of certificates, as these are a hammer that may not fit a specific kind = of workpiece (which may, after all, not be a nail).
I had a simpler problem:=C2=A0 A device may have 10 public key= s.=C2=A0 The firmware update arrives with a signature.=C2=A0 =C2=A0How do y= ou use the right public key to verify the signature?=C2=A0=C2=A0
=
Remember that signature checks on these devices (especially = energy limited devices) can have a small but not so insignificant drain.=C2= =A0=C2=A0

> I am also not clear regarding how the signing public keys or certifica= tes are distributed and/or revoked.=C2=A0 Is that outside the scope of the = document?=C2=A0 Or am I just not reading the spec properly.

If you think in terms of certificates, that problem can somehow be consider= ed solved.
But I think in general certificates are just one way to authorize authentic= ation, and we should cast a wider net here.

If you don=E2=80=99t have (want to rely on) the authorization manager, the = device will need to be configured with some trusted information that can be= used to transitively authorize the authentication of the manufacturer and = the operator; authorization chains for these two can be combined or kept se= parate.

In your applications, do you have a secure real-time clock (i.e., can you s= ecurely check not-before and expiration times)?
That may help getting rid of older certificates, but it also means that a f= irmware image that is delivered together with such certificates ages out.
Revocation can be done in a push (e.g., CRL) or a pull (e.g., OCSP or token= introspection) manner; CRLs are not really appropriate for embedded device= s.

Unfortunately turns out to be an iss= ue if the headend gets compromised. Utilities have demanded this mechanism.= =C2=A0 We do need to revoke older keys and install new public keys.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

> Also, I am not clear if we can insert run some prescribed actions to b= e run before or after firmware installation.

That sounds good and would need to be added to the signed claims.
Is there a good way to specify these actions in a way that is somewhat deta= ched from a specific system or platform?

=C2=A0
The crudest thing is a reference to = entries in table of actions.=C2=A0 Fairly language independent.=C2=A0 I sai= d fairly because I can foresee format wars ... your favorite ...
=
The installed firmware must support preinstall actions.=C2= =A0 The post install actions must be supported by the complete installed fi= rmware.

I doubt we can enforce transactional seman= tics in these devices.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten




--
Rajesh Kanungo
President and CTO
TalaSecu= re, Inc.
(408) 431-3035
--001a113f9b4a23ea34055d28cc1c-- From nobody Sat Nov 4 10:15:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED7413FBB4 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:15:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U-ZXFZ8eJT01 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C7BF13FBAF for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:15:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A073005D6 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:15:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id W_r7TaZdH-EO for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.home (pool-108-45-101-150.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.45.101.150]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D35A430026A; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:15:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Message-Id: <4740CCB5-7CC7-4998-8C61-99A597B23DB3@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_CA70CA6A-F871-4757-8983-009AED95EC03" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:15:17 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: suit@ietf.org To: Rajesh Kanungo References: <80676780-A83B-4DE8-93F4-2C0D78C8250E@tzi.org> <88586B11-2277-4A8F-A529-0A198BCB60AC@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 17:15:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_CA70CA6A-F871-4757-8983-009AED95EC03 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Nov 4, 2017, at 10:11 AM, Rajesh Kanungo = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Carsten Bormann > wrote: > On Nov 4, 2017, at 13:48, Rajesh Kanungo > wrote: > > > > I am not clear about the signer's public key or certificate is = matched to the signature. >=20 > I hand-waved over that as it is part of the =E2=80=9Cauthorized = authentication=E2=80=9D. >=20 > I generally try to avoid thinking about these authorization problems = in terms of certificates, as these are a hammer that may not fit a = specific kind of workpiece (which may, after all, not be a nail). >=20 > I had a simpler problem: A device may have 10 public keys. The = firmware update arrives with a signature. How do you use the right = public key to verify the signature? =20 In CMS, there are two mechanisms to selecting the certificate of the = signer: 1) issuer and serial number of the signer's certificate; and 2) subject public key identifier, which is essentially the hash = of the signer's public key. Either of these should let you select the certificate of the signer from = the 10 that you have stored. The second one will also work if you = stored 10 raw public keys. > Remember that signature checks on these devices (especially energy = limited devices) can have a small but not so insignificant drain. =20 >=20 > > I am also not clear regarding how the signing public keys or = certificates are distributed and/or revoked. Is that outside the scope = of the document? Or am I just not reading the spec properly. >=20 > If you think in terms of certificates, that problem can somehow be = considered solved. > But I think in general certificates are just one way to authorize = authentication, and we should cast a wider net here. >=20 > If you don=E2=80=99t have (want to rely on) the authorization manager, = the device will need to be configured with some trusted information that = can be used to transitively authorize the authentication of the = manufacturer and the operator; authorization chains for these two can be = combined or kept separate. >=20 > In your applications, do you have a secure real-time clock (i.e., can = you securely check not-before and expiration times)? > That may help getting rid of older certificates, but it also means = that a firmware image that is delivered together with such certificates = ages out. >=20 > Revocation can be done in a push (e.g., CRL) or a pull (e.g., OCSP or = token introspection) manner; CRLs are not really appropriate for = embedded devices. >=20 > Unfortunately turns out to be an issue if the headend gets = compromised. Utilities have demanded this mechanism. We do need to = revoke older keys and install new public keys. =20 The Trust Anchor Management Protocol (TAMP) is one way to do this. Russ --Apple-Mail=_CA70CA6A-F871-4757-8983-009AED95EC03 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Nov 4, 2017, at 10:11 AM, Rajesh Kanungo <rajesh@talasecure.com> wrote:



On Sat, = Nov 4, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On Nov 4, 2017, at 13:48, Rajesh Kanungo <rajesh@talasecure.com> wrote:
>
> I am not clear about the signer's public key or certificate is = matched to the signature.

I hand-waved over that as it is part of the =E2=80=9Cauthorized = authentication=E2=80=9D.

I generally try to avoid thinking about these authorization problems in = terms of certificates, as these are a hammer that may not fit a specific = kind of workpiece (which may, after all, not be a nail).

I had a simpler problem:  A device may have 10 public = keys.  The firmware update arrives with a signature.  =  How do you use the right public key to verify the = signature?  

In CMS, there are two mechanisms to selecting the = certificate of the signer:

1) issuer = and serial number of the signer's certificate; and

2) subject public key identifier, = which is essentially the hash of the signer's public key.

Either of these should let you select the = certificate of the signer from the 10 that you have stored.  The = second one will also work if you stored 10 raw public = keys.


Remember = that signature checks on these devices (especially energy limited = devices) can have a small but not so insignificant = drain.  

> I am also not clear regarding how the signing public keys or = certificates are distributed and/or revoked.  Is that outside the = scope of the document?  Or am I just not reading the spec = properly.

If you think in terms of certificates, that problem can somehow be = considered solved.
But I think in general certificates are just one way to authorize = authentication, and we should cast a wider net here.

If you don=E2=80=99t have (want to rely on) the authorization manager, = the device will need to be configured with some trusted information that = can be used to transitively authorize the authentication of the = manufacturer and the operator; authorization chains for these two can be = combined or kept separate.

In your applications, do you have a secure real-time clock (i.e., can = you securely check not-before and expiration times)?
That may help getting rid of older certificates, but it also means that = a firmware image that is delivered together with such certificates ages = out.

Revocation can be done in a push (e.g., CRL) or a pull (e.g., OCSP or = token introspection) manner; CRLs are not really appropriate for = embedded devices.

Unfortunately turns out to be an issue = if the headend gets compromised. Utilities have demanded this = mechanism.  We do need to revoke older keys and install new public = keys.  

The Trust Anchor Management Protocol (TAMP) is one way = to do this.

Russ

= --Apple-Mail=_CA70CA6A-F871-4757-8983-009AED95EC03-- From nobody Sat Nov 4 10:16:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE2F13FBBD for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:16:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LucaoB3kWQgU for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 071CE13FBB8 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722F13005D6 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:16:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id DO0d4qmlXyAH for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a860b60074bd.home (pool-108-45-101-150.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.45.101.150]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 256ED30026A; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:16:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3331877F-3C4B-4AD3-A8AF-31ED0B43AE6D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 13:16:10 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: suit@ietf.org To: Rajesh Kanungo References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 17:16:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3331877F-3C4B-4AD3-A8AF-31ED0B43AE6D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Question: Any idea about the timestamp start, granularity, end? =20 >=20 > Question about signatures: would you consider a more structured = signature field? Something like:=20 > https://github.com/multiformats/multihash = >=20 > fn code dig size hash digest > -------- -------- ------------------------------------ > 00010001 00000100 101101100 11111000 01011100 10110101 > sha1 4 bytes 4 byte sha1 digest I do not see what is gained over an IANA registry with registered = algorithm identifiers. Russ --Apple-Mail=_3331877F-3C4B-4AD3-A8AF-31ED0B43AE6D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Question: Any idea about the = timestamp start, granularity, end?  

Question about signatures: would you consider a = more structured signature field? Something like: 
https://github.com/multiformats/multihash

fn =
code  dig size hash digest
-------- -------- ------------------------------------
00010001 00000100 101101100 11111000 01011100 10110101
sha1     4 bytes  4 byte sha1 =
digest
I do not see what is = gained over an IANA registry with registered algorithm identifiers.

Russ

= --Apple-Mail=_3331877F-3C4B-4AD3-A8AF-31ED0B43AE6D-- From nobody Sat Nov 4 10:16:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8D413FBB8 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:16:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V4KJ8c1pCwnQ for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2D3113FBB9 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 10:16:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vA4HG9J7003462; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 18:16:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from pptp-218-1.informatik.uni-bremen.de (pptp-218-1.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yTlpd5MJtzDXlm; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 18:16:09 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 18:16:08 +0100 Cc: suit@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 531508568.086904-7b7f1cf2201906e64266aef1b6fe0c07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <80676780-A83B-4DE8-93F4-2C0D78C8250E@tzi.org> <88586B11-2277-4A8F-A529-0A198BCB60AC@tzi.org> To: Rajesh Kanungo X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 17:16:19 -0000 > I had a simpler problem: A device may have 10 public keys. The = firmware update arrives with a signature. How do you use the right = public key to verify the signature? =20 Both CMS and COSE have key identifiers, so that should be solvable. > Remember that signature checks on these devices (especially energy = limited devices) can have a small but not so insignificant drain. =20 Right. Re CRLs: > Unfortunately turns out to be an issue if the headend gets = compromised. Utilities have demanded this mechanism. We do need to = revoke older keys and install new public keys. =20 Indeed. A CRL can help you with the former, not with the latter. Any = push mechanism that authorizes a new key can also de-authorize an old = one. (If you want to flood the de-authorization, you just need a signed = claim that the compromised key is now de-authorized.) Re actions around an upgrade: > The crudest thing is a reference to entries in table of actions. = Fairly language independent. I said fairly because I can foresee format = wars ... your favorite =E2=80=A6 Which form would these references take? Text string? Byte string? Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat Nov 4 19:56:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0FA013FC41 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:56:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=talasecure-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LxYRDaI9x-pl for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1B9713FAE7 for ; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id h70so12407343ioi.4 for ; Sat, 04 Nov 2017 19:56:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=talasecure-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WWj1iD2rbX48WSJRPAjWiL8sDrd8/H8pzUnpqf3Ylb4=; b=pZVZ4XNmytdQUAOakFJzWq07BvnhBKXr4ApaSBWW0SJzTr1sZ4hP31a4V2O+Q2Pvng HTAhMjGR3KYOrzyIYttm9iwtb43bJftdD08p9M35RnLJxd3dlSCm7ZefLxannBv7U9KI pGEWEg0uLYhLZKZ8AXjbS/U1kMTRQfSR2ESbtp7QCQoyouLi7/ztLR/4BrOiXXC3U0i3 rY1VOsUbDtCsOoYlIVJv0r8bYxM/Kq0Ge/J2J9lknejb2iu6qyuN+ZAdoRXOeSpUYplB PSb3fK8nw+gjVfC2HKV6Hz6xg2gYG9GgQ/0L/jUwY0uw9tV0xrHAoSPD86mwwRM1SgDY xw0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WWj1iD2rbX48WSJRPAjWiL8sDrd8/H8pzUnpqf3Ylb4=; b=kZ55Xnjo7qVRNknlbBktmkBF64Cls3zq68Vf+22J3SVm0yFU0M8w2wDXzBQ16U45ru nlOgZPuv99UfR7qmH/EOHKXCyji6dSWTYsgJPummx12H857blN4bcqwXYEzmkB0bH2am RVlTXNdXntqj+VYym+onn4pyMbD42+n3CSqsO7lgshqrwJXRX9+gQMC5VVnZ0JaYgd42 omG3JrHGit6TXnt4QszIXYrrk2ZyEUKju92wD3djx/AupE3ZswYUvynnO1u416licLv6 hrhwLIjoG6M1MyV5OAe+yGQ/6LnrPpTG0JMWnbMr/rkz4rfhCVrkWeXAAmn9E3goVu8d LbUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX70w7+2XcWsq1XUUYTbQBP6mP5ieEgOVaarRohU9TiWOiE2qgzg aySznTHZGlUW+M8siUqaIgZEgVJy2mpQY2lPYVhf5+5hJoc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+SL9MgcIdeq0nF1cYbZwVCDYwnJ6NZmRuy5mf8vfplQZpH8BmFOmU8EOhP9tsEL7k1MUBYMWNDaZENpTnEe3k8= X-Received: by 10.107.175.28 with SMTP id y28mr14760910ioe.216.1509850578776; Sat, 04 Nov 2017 19:56:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.2.5.196 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Nov 2017 19:56:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <80676780-A83B-4DE8-93F4-2C0D78C8250E@tzi.org> <88586B11-2277-4A8F-A529-0A198BCB60AC@tzi.org> From: Rajesh Kanungo Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 08:26:18 +0530 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a11445a8e698510055d337b2b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Nov 2017 02:56:23 -0000 --001a11445a8e698510055d337b2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for your other responses. On Sat, Nov 4, 2017 at 10:46 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > The crudest thing is a reference to entries in table of actions. Fairl= y > language independent. I said fairly because I can foresee format wars ..= . > your favorite =E2=80=A6 > > Which form would these references take? Text string? Byte string? > EBCDIC? More seriously, the general form is a REST API type string. May be too much. Using index numbers is fairly dangerous as it is hard to prevent collisions. REST is good but the system can be misused or misunderstood and can open security holes. A GUID has no meaning; it would be easy to define and almost impossible to use. Almost feel like using a URN. It is a named procedure we will be invoking. Mightier minds might want to chime in. --=20 Rajesh Kanungo President and CTO TalaSecure, Inc. (408) 431-3035 --001a11445a8e698510055d337b2b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for your other respo= nses.

On Sat= , Nov 4, 2017 at 10:46 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:<= br>

> The crudest thing is a reference to entries in table of actions.=C2=A0= Fairly language independent.=C2=A0 I said fairly because I can foresee for= mat wars ... your favorite =E2=80=A6

Which form would these references take?=C2=A0 Text string?=C2=A0 Byte strin= g?

EBCDIC?=C2=A0=C2=A0
More seriously, the general form is a REST API type string.=C2=A0 May be= too much.=C2=A0 Using index numbers is fairly dangerous as it is hard to p= revent collisions.=C2=A0 REST is good but the system can be misused or misu= nderstood and can open security holes. A GUID has no meaning; it would be e= asy to define and almost impossible to use.=C2=A0 Almost feel like using a = URN.=C2=A0 It is a named procedure we will be invoking.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Mightier minds might want to chime in.

--
Rajesh Kanungo
President and CTO
TalaSecure, Inc.
(408) 431-3035
--001a11445a8e698510055d337b2b-- From nobody Sun Nov 5 22:45:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A146313FAD3 for ; Sun, 5 Nov 2017 22:45:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nYVrSLl_C93a for ; Sun, 5 Nov 2017 22:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x22b.google.com (mail-oi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8427813FB35 for ; Sun, 5 Nov 2017 22:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id f66so6354052oib.2 for ; Sun, 05 Nov 2017 22:45:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xJJcLOOUm3+Ud+pdw8bptjI2W9QCQxncIuCEE2dgSmg=; b=VdMO2fBkJNJ0+DyIF2SoycwgRN6CMO/sxUukBFp/qVPphoEauES/bS8BGCXdec4Y7k xbaUKlzTFoTrak5QB2SB3DeulYjGIJ5GDMlwhBUto73P8ZjKfxjUlI/UNOyLstCJ4jzG noDW9y4qjrPMijLNetxv8CFFJGg4XssY22uVnAhbbD03oh0L72lcBHbCPDP8U8kNisJe th6ZC6qdW1r7cuRdlRek+qy+n1hyfjgYtOoOzQu0F3u3Zjo/u6oaQEnkK+mkxI53sNM9 59e7N2u6YXUQ8fokVvAnBqB2/qjV6FaLkJJBEk1KtSei+mQB9/5DbQYGrvFwYgwYsiM3 J0rA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=xJJcLOOUm3+Ud+pdw8bptjI2W9QCQxncIuCEE2dgSmg=; b=qaSmUR0V/NwS+64EMNnVW5alt8JOZQqrM9+vLUOprHZ2ebsswriKl16vM4j3df7IlX KhsxKMmUq2MKlcIPAoHSRVOpt3f+Wv1hbhObEfHpEq7SCHggjS4dzuznINjJel7EFu37 u9TaZruKwKcdrNmSJJccME90OmkYUXEEgdVWCEidxcclxdyGQ/CfkRmEas5sHt+vfhpt 0odFnDf5i9zrAKFOebeslzavxpcGote0tqvTeaVwxjRFiGHcILjP4fBCOAimnC0My8QH 3J4cdywX/jHZznYoF/5ImduXPCtjNPmnao0sp1GFafuzYlqSJ8T1pDtrnD5W5j/3sMXJ o6+w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXppW1P5VgpmvxvYmWIIYopRauoVCyqRRGG276lZmxSpcWIUax7 pGbgTjBdCIAFuFFx+0IFVSQ0e/EmHdEwlKN9UNWLy1r6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+S+C80Jyfqxs+kBU9UGv7VbklpwIbY52ox+lossovmj4pZ0msN1TVB/TwrJno8Emi2u+bAcuXbTSkytK9oTOPg= X-Received: by 10.202.217.197 with SMTP id q188mr7488960oig.83.1509950727577; Sun, 05 Nov 2017 22:45:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.15.155 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Nov 2017 22:45:27 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Thomson Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 17:45:27 +1100 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 06:45:33 -0000 Given that we are having a BOF, it's most appropriate to concentrate on requirements and scope. I've reviewed draft-moran-* and draft-nandakumar-* and I think that there is considerable overlap in stated requirements. The two key points of contention seem to be: 1. whether the firmware retrieval mechanism is in scope or not (I'm including discovery here) I don't see any easy path to agreeing on an MTI for delivery mechanism - these things are just to disparate - and that would be the primary outcome of taking on that part of the work. That said, it would be a huge win if an agreement could be reached. Here, draft-moran-suit-manifest confuses things by insisting on the presence of a field that identifies the location of the firmware image. If delivery/retrieval mechanisms are intentionally out of scope, then a named-data approach would avoid any need to reference them (i.e., identify using a hash or the via the signature of an authorization). 2. manifest format, whether it be specific or not Frankly, I don't find the claims in draft-nandakumar-* to be convincing. Flexibility in terms of format needs some pretty strong justification. If this is done well, the cost of implementing the manifest format will be dwarfed by the cost of the crypto code. Other than those two issues, I don't see much divergence. There is the minor point about encryption of images that Suhas makes. I don't think that we *need* to fight about this one. If a vendor wants to encrypt their images, then they can create a package format that encrypts the update without touching the manifest in any way. That would move the encryption keys (and cryptography) to the update itself. In other words, it could be proprietary. There is some loss of value to the ecosystem in not having a generic, vetted design, so I'd say that the question instead boils down to whether the group wants to take on the work. Based on the solutions in front of us, it looks like encryption could easily be done as an extension. 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(protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 0532f620-78eb-4f85-0221-08d524ee4f83 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2017 08:13:49.6189 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR0801MB2706 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Manifest details ... was RE: WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 08:13:55 -0000 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dz0g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUFOHvvSo56gDbu2Ei/chxkf/z4KxA2xkorOwu5EYYc2kjnjZwZ K0Utn5WkCJSNPyBuhJWb2a9OtEve9W6VmvX1lC9Ho0/v X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QL2k3QfQWxpyyiAXioZ7fr7iGdvTSEYSgRREs7uJLlb/p3zcW/yD+fS3JGpsqZTY7kOiZZbOYHymBtygjWIkI= X-Received: by 10.202.217.197 with SMTP id q188mr7588095oig.83.1509957423351; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 00:37:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.15.155 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 00:37:02 -0800 (PST) From: Martin Thomson Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:37:02 +1100 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] draft-moran manifest thoughts X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 08:37:06 -0000 On the design in draft-moran-suit-manifest, it seems like there are a bunch of things that could be cut down. I think that expanding on Carsten's set of use cases [1] might be a better way to drive the addition of fields. >From my perspective, there is just one question: should this update be applied to this device? The minimal example does work, but it requires a per-device signature and that isn't awesome, so we create policies that can be more broadly applied to attributes (or claims). The 4122 identifiers seem overly prescriptive; I can't see why a vendor-specified string is not OK: one for the type of device, and one for the specific device. Part of the motivation for 4122-style identifiers is to avoid collisions, but I don't see that as necessary here - any party that is authorizing changes can manage to ensure that the identifiers they sign don't collide. I'm also a little leery about the justification for some of the meta-information, like timestamp, all of payload info, the nonce (let the crypto do that bit). storageIdentifier seems especially problematic. If you have a device type identifier, then that should suffice for those cases where there are multiple update targets on a device. That is, you can identify by generically identifying the type of thing that this update applies to: "vendor foo alarm clock configuration" rather than "vendor foo alarm clock" and it all works neatly. Right now the storageIdentifier is all tied up in the way that the update is identified. The draft identifies timestamp as critical, but does not motivate this at all well (and the minimal example in [1] doesn't support that view either). I think that directives, conditions, and extensions could be phrased more generically as attributes (or "claims" [1]). In particular, the reason that directives exist seem to be driven by a goal that only really exists in the context of a protocol. That is, you have a protocol that pushes updates out ahead of time so that they can be applied on a specific schedule later. Having two axes for extension and variation (directives and conditions) is expensive, especially if one or other is more rarely added to. Unused extension points become unusable. Unless there is a stronger reason for having two things, I'd argue for having one. An extensible "attributes" or "claims" setup instead with core attributes and the ability to extend is a more robust design overall. One thing that is likely missing here is the ability to identify minimum versions for related software loads. If you have configuration that relies on software of a specific version, you want to be able to express that dependency (so that the configuration doesn't get applied to an earlier version, for example). This appears to rely on dependencies right now, but I think that you want something that uses the same identifiers consistently, that is the type of thing that is the target of an update. [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/suit/0kEo_RsNu7RTPkOraRw7Xsn98pk From nobody Mon Nov 6 01:31:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB4813FB79 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 01:31:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lZMcG8QmJAUw for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 01:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur01on0063.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.0.63]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E66C13F963 for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 787d1ebd-a3ef-440d-7db7-08d524f9350a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2017 09:31:49.6254 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR0801MB2706 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 09:31:57 -0000 Hi Martin, Thanks for the reviewing the drafts and for your questions. 1. whether the firmware retrieval mechanism is in scope or not (I'm includi= ng discovery here) I don't see any easy path to agreeing on an MTI for delivery mechanism - = these things are just to disparate - and that would be the primary outcome = of taking on that part of the work. That said, it would be a huge win if a= n agreement could be reached. [Hannes] I will be impossible to agree on the distribution / retrieval mech= anism since many companies already have ways to do so and different deploym= ents require different firmware distribution mechanisms. TFTP, for example,= is not used to send firmware updates to Bluetooth Low Energy devices nor i= s HTTP. Here, draft-moran-suit-manifest confuses things by insisting on the pres= ence of a field that identifies the location of the firmware image. If del= ivery/retrieval mechanisms are intentionally out of scope, then a named-dat= a approach would avoid any need to reference them (i.e., identify using a h= ash or the via the signature of an authorization). [Hannes] There are two possible ways to provision firmware, namely either b= y attaching the firmware image to the manifest or by separating it from the= manifest. For the former the field just points to the "body" where the fir= mware image is found. In the latter case the firmware image needs to be obt= ained from somewhere. As said above, that can happen using a number of ways= . A common mechanism today is to download it from an HTTPS server. Since th= e URL is included in the manifest there is no need for discovery. Fetching = a file from a server isn't rocket science either and does not require stand= ardization. (A multicast distribution mechanism, as also discussed on the l= ist, might, however require standardization.) The named data approach sounds nice but leads to the question of how the de= vice then finds the firmware image. Note that we are not arguing the firmware distribution mechanism shouldn't = be standardized at all. However, that's not what we would be starting with = since * there is already ongoing work in standardization in context of the larger= device management framework (e.g., from OMA DM, OIC) * there is nothing to standardize (e.g., HTTP transporting a blob), * or the work falls outside the scope of the IETF (e.g., defining an new se= rvice and characteristic in Bluetooth Low Energy), * or would potentially require a fair amount of standardization (e.g., the = multicast mechanism discussed on the list). Maybe such work should better b= e done in the transport area, IMHO. There is the minor point about encryption of images that Suhas makes. I don't think that we *need* to fight about this one. If a vendor wants to= encrypt their images, then they can create a package format that encrypts = the update without touching the manifest in any way. That would move the encryption keys (and cryptography) to the update itself= . In other words, it could be proprietary. There is some loss of value to= the ecosystem in not having a generic, vetted design, so I'd say that the = question instead boils down to whether the group wants to take on the work.= Based on the solutions in front of us, it looks like encryption could easi= ly be done as an extension. [Hannes] I am somewhat surprised to hear that there are people in the indus= try that do not believe that encrypting firmware isn't a requirement freque= ntly raised. Note that this is not a requirement we at ARM came up with. It= is a requirement coming from the industry partners. course, we can make ev= erything proprietary as we do today. If some people don't want to use encry= pted firmware images then they do not need to use that part of the spec. Ciao Hannes _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3e87406d-8fc3-49ec-ff9e-08d524fb88e8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2017 09:48:29.3749 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR0801MB2706 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] draft-moran manifest thoughts X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 09:48:35 -0000 Hi Martin, Thanks for these further comments. I will only address a few of them now. * Terminology: Should conditions and directives better be called "claims"? I personally don't have a preference. Any name is fine for me. * storageIdentifier As mentioned in the description, there are cases where a single IoT device = has multiple microcontrollers. A given firmware is useful for a specific mi= crocontroller only. You might have to update all microntrollers on a single= device or only one. You can leave this to proprietary extensions or you ca= n standardize such a field. Is this an exotic case? Not really. Just look at some basic consumer device= s and you will notice that they are actually consisting of multiple micro-c= ontrollers, which are connected using some bus (such as SPI). This sounds complicated. Why are companies do this? To meet the real-time r= equirements you often want to just use a single chip for a given task, such= as a BLE chip and a IEEE 802.15.4 chip for a device that supports multiple= radio technologies. Then, you need yet another chip on top of it that runs= the actual application + IP + ... * minimum versions I guess this appears to be a difference between firmware updates and softwa= re updates. With firmware updates you replace everything on the device whil= e with software updates you are focused on specific parts. This is maybe something we should look into when we extend the work to more= generic software updates. * nonce While the timestamp is great to determine the freshness of the created mani= fest some IoT devices are not equipped with network time. For those devices= a nonce (or call it sequence number) would be more appropriate. Ciao Hannes -----Original Message----- From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Thomson Sent: 06 November 2017 09:37 To: suit@ietf.org Subject: [Suit] draft-moran manifest thoughts On the design in draft-moran-suit-manifest, it seems like there are a bunch= of things that could be cut down. I think that expanding on Carsten's set= of use cases [1] might be a better way to drive the addition of fields. >From my perspective, there is just one question: should this update be applied to this device? The minimal example does work, but it requires a p= er-device signature and that isn't awesome, so we create policies that can = be more broadly applied to attributes (or claims). The 4122 identifiers seem overly prescriptive; I can't see why a vendor-spe= cified string is not OK: one for the type of device, and one for the specif= ic device. Part of the motivation for 4122-style identifiers is to avoid c= ollisions, but I don't see that as necessary here - any party that is autho= rizing changes can manage to ensure that the identifiers they sign don't co= llide. I'm also a little leery about the justification for some of the meta-inform= ation, like timestamp, all of payload info, the nonce (let the crypto do th= at bit). storageIdentifier seems especially problematic. If you have a device type = identifier, then that should suffice for those cases where there are multip= le update targets on a device. That is, you can identify by generically id= entifying the type of thing that this update applies to: "vendor foo alarm clock configuration" rather than "vendor foo alarm clock"= and it all works neatly. Right now the storageIdentifier is all tied up i= n the way that the update is identified. The draft identifies timestamp as critical, but does not motivate this at a= ll well (and the minimal example in [1] doesn't support that view either). I think that directives, conditions, and extensions could be phrased more g= enerically as attributes (or "claims" [1]). In particular, the reason that= directives exist seem to be driven by a goal that only really exists in th= e context of a protocol. That is, you have a protocol that pushes updates = out ahead of time so that they can be applied on a specific schedule later.= Having two axes for extension and variation (directives and conditions) i= s expensive, especially if one or other is more rarely added to. Unused ex= tension points become unusable. Unless there is a stronger reason for havi= ng two things, I'd argue for having one. An extensible "attributes" or "cl= aims" setup instead with core attributes and the ability to extend is a more robu= st design overall. One thing that is likely missing here is the ability to identify minimum ve= rsions for related software loads. If you have configuration that relies o= n software of a specific version, you want to be able to express that depen= dency (so that the configuration doesn't get applied to an earlier version,= for example). This appears to rely on dependencies right now, but I think= that you want something that uses the same identifiers consistently, that = is the type of thing that is the target of an update. [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/suit/0kEo_RsNu7RTPkOraRw7Xsn98pk _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. From nobody Mon Nov 6 02:38:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65EEC13FC1B for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:38:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jceg60YxRjQB for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x22b.google.com (mail-ot0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C5D913FBC8 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id u41so8003828otf.12 for ; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 02:38:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=m8gw29mHFQHMPaeLIK2XO3bw7Kl3mwTOwcmpoBLdaoo=; b=o4Y3fe+JOSFAIuPZx3+PX85n3zkRdmaFMZR1JRqwk+H2n0KzqinkQ6ZWZ/Rw9chRCi AROgz1kXzJkclMAFliCCz0Z6mZJOVP5hIMPLszyUndiroOlY6uSnfNA/p1oH+tH010bZ JAvhZfqj3PqjygjLErDI3BVxfIf/vRPko7e8Cxhk/YomDGijyO4b4yI3g0im0M+2+bY2 Cadesviqaz7o4iDsmcsgTt3bDM6xtrtEiLUUnZ8rWXKreOfBFRlGwpH5vIDI3liNsKT7 RwrDSgKV970aN34GeYCpj+JWV5Ohe9KPVyrrTd0FEMsLKNbcRSM49sw5/cPVOY/fPy9E URvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=m8gw29mHFQHMPaeLIK2XO3bw7Kl3mwTOwcmpoBLdaoo=; b=O4ub8QLvHJvcJ+PBC6tTB3Ok3JxenQf4s6j6bBbyaMb7O3JKDWBmoNH4TzZyb6Ow+B +L4OXYkYa8jmmDQcBtCxH3eJrstDz/A/74sLQxN2r86IomIvy4xe14Qg+f3YtqJmdzzZ GdxofB7XYy9IRh6auFEQYTpUKX3v+Gb6qgW1svCjdY4QNgVUpLTZjgrPOMD6+985w56w rFph1alh8+cyMU12qb2s7nCSQMcCGo/aytjotvVM/m8FRCFScMhlK1AMnCS/mrt69MKS AfqdZhL/78zD+jwe7QMbIpHfWKTlKJ/15djiFz1HV2tmNJ3wbCObnCIGuduABzCpr+Cg TXaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX6ETAuGTL8EUd9zskhHGJFunacZjjJJEazmyNclYXc4o2QcdgrJ zE2r+K+sXpwQ+ZFDkBrBOxfh7Jy9SVO24DqAOsncIQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+RkySSaV3kuj+bU+55LTDOKSfwgVT1H4rSK9CSIJcYb62Xxve0IN+pPmOa4D/IV3hj8IgT4BxHLWN10DKamgOw= X-Received: by 10.157.38.1 with SMTP id a1mr1289295otb.112.1509964726227; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 02:38:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.15.155 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:38:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Martin Thomson Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:38:45 +1100 Message-ID: To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 10:38:48 -0000 Hi Hannes, I think perhaps I'm not communicating clearly enough. Just a few responses= . On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > The named data approach sounds nice but leads to the question of how the = device then finds the firmware image. I see, so you would still insist on pointing to the image somehow, but you don't want to define the mechanism (or play kingmaker for existing mechanisms). But that's where the seams start to show. You need to pick a framework into which this fits, because the assumptions about delivery mechanisms matter if you are relying on the locator to actually find you the firmware. If, as you suggest, this is done as part of a larger framework that addresses delivery, why could you not assume that the update and manifest are already present? That the larger framework can be responsible for matching manifest to update? For example, if you choose HTTP, link relation between one and t'other would be simple enough and neatly put finding firmware out of scope for the manifest. Then you avoid having the manifest deal with the messy details of locators (which is the area in the draft that is messiest, at least in my view). (Something in one of the previous discussions suggested to me that there might be multiple manifests. That is, claims about validity could be made independently. What do you think of that?) > [Hannes] I am somewhat surprised to hear that there are people in the ind= ustry that do not believe that encrypting firmware isn't a requirement freq= uently raised. Note that this is not a requirement we at ARM came up with. = It is a requirement coming from the industry partners. course, we can make = everything proprietary as we do today. If some people don't want to use enc= rypted firmware images then they do not need to use that part of the spec. You will note that I did not contest the requirement, I'm just questioning whether it is necessary to do up front, or even as critical part of the manifest. I observed that it is not strictly necessary to define where proprietary solutions exist, but also suggested that an extension might be reasonable. An extension would allow us to a) concentrate on finishing a core, and b) allow for more detail. I can't make a whole lot of sense of the design the draft proposes, probably because it is missing critical descriptions of how keys are expected to be managed. From nobody Mon Nov 6 02:48:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6580613FB57 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:48:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wsCuM7K8lHKI for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x234.google.com (mail-ot0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AC7D13FB4C for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:48:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x234.google.com with SMTP id s88so8032489ota.4 for ; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 02:48:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=O3+eXL9HFFKq9QKsVTAjT7fOgfz/GDZlqV17aqEHAtA=; b=ieHnLhKdbBXNAiOh9yOnJQx+QHlD57T7d7VKVRfZmE1uZkq5PLh6eztEgVQRUCSM+g PSINQ7asF/ZsyVtMhm6BJsoMjQy9h/K7WLbLWeRtqKvnn/cnrcj9oaDmHSIv8pJY6Lhp K3BAknxRjwTAEdZ0fg4lZwD9LzHfrBWVzHGD23Klp1TH3Sqa7ZekRmRzWa6Q6o/8UsAb yaA0YPqn9bCa548HXXhr0kjMZ9PrTZuOs7XR50Z/hE2T0WiwXDMmwqvQYt5iFCVjCvNN mQkqydDUKmxF8CYPBf2VfBSD3eSKccqoBt/wblUgukyphkWVni0pKAuGB6AFPY5D3feU PJfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=O3+eXL9HFFKq9QKsVTAjT7fOgfz/GDZlqV17aqEHAtA=; b=ZTMzFunfXIR9K/ITHZK0G/cjVlVAz3a9fI9rxRWizWRkaTdwyE0x7PN041nCWlAG1O N53I+fn8qJaGrrkbeUTcgzKw8HOm8HMP0Tsd3r0VdY2QK3FltUQU18HH186m0MNJriEd Agfi7batBcvMUiy0T0Y55rhMweSNk3fKhtR0klAW6sAOzvkXTBtj764LT5Qzh2oEZFl7 t4SU5uZuXwIBhjku09RVrhutPlWPlO533kEndrYBVb5+944IJCRxtYzHuN2YJnYhA9M4 yY5UHLqi7lGIOAz7bFXl2tGelNHZMCRdCWvBEjw+HJfAHhMeJuaVJ6GxNUhxBBSn1hXt DU/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7QtIENVilCySPD3LukJV3/tI2V0vnG3QGOwrj0yR2FkzcNcr61 vYWQoKCCzoWTtmyTLPxxyLSLnsjn6BEqjb+TSHnq8g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QHK+5IGLqLpREjcCMbMaOv4u+rFqJxVjsZdxQHBl++n7jGE8RVjjaWrKQGWXyftZZ3L2DqD4IB5Ulj3XMM1/c= X-Received: by 10.157.51.146 with SMTP id u18mr8415234otc.98.1509965281599; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 02:48:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.15.155 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 02:48:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Martin Thomson Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:48:01 +1100 Message-ID: To: Hannes Tschofenig Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] draft-moran manifest thoughts X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 10:48:04 -0000 On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Hi Martin, > > Thanks for these further comments. > > I will only address a few of them now. > > * Terminology: Should conditions and directives better be called "claims"= ? > > I personally don't have a preference. Any name is fine for me. It's not just terminology. There are three discrete fields in the draft for conditions, directives and extensions. I am suggesting that there only needs to be one. > * storageIdentifier > > As mentioned in the description, there are cases where a single IoT devic= e has multiple microcontrollers. A given firmware is useful for a specific = microcontroller only. You might have to update all microntrollers on a sing= le device or only one. You can leave this to proprietary extensions or you = can standardize such a field. > Is this an exotic case? Not really. Just look at some basic consumer devi= ces and you will notice that they are actually consisting of multiple micro= -controllers, which are connected using some bus (such as SPI). > This sounds complicated. Why are companies do this? To meet the real-time= requirements you often want to just use a single chip for a given task, su= ch as a BLE chip and a IEEE 802.15.4 chip for a device that supports multip= le radio technologies. Then, you need yet another chip on top of it that ru= ns the actual application + IP + ... I understood all of that. I was suggesting a simplification. Let the vendor create the names for the things it intends to update and how they recognize themselves in a manifest that targets them. Rather than the combination of vendorID, deviceTypeID, deviceID and storageID, you have a string that the vendor can do with as they please. A device with three microcontrollers could use the strings "A", "B", and "C" to identify each, and "All" to identify all of them. We don't need to tell them to register a vendor ID in some registry and manage their own registry of identifiers when key separation does most of the work of ensuring that updates end up in the right place. Conventions will help more, of course, but the neat thing with strings is that they can be user-friendly too. > * minimum versions > > I guess this appears to be a difference between firmware updates and soft= ware updates. With firmware updates you replace everything on the device wh= ile with software updates you are focused on specific parts. > This is maybe something we should look into when we extend the work to mo= re generic software updates. Not really a thought that I had, but sure. Incremental updates are usually managed by identifying pre-requisites (i.e., you need version X.Y or this won't work). > * nonce > > While the timestamp is great to determine the freshness of the created ma= nifest some IoT devices are not equipped with network time. For those devic= es a nonce (or call it sequence number) would be more appropriate. How is that different to a version number? Also, a nonce is less useful, because nonces aren't necessarily ordered. From nobody Mon Nov 6 03:05:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF0413FB4C for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 03:05:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QCW26ZZj5ZGD for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 03:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2862911d-d4ba-48b3-88cf-08d525064017 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2017 11:05:11.7483 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR0801MB2705 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 11:05:17 -0000 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suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C01F13FAFF for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:34:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONqLk3RlZAVe for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05FE213FAD9 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (199-7-159-58.eng.wind.ca [199.7.159.58]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCE751F8FB for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 15:34:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id C2E0635A3; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:33:24 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "suit\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Hannes Tschofenig message dated "Mon, 06 Nov 2017 09:31:49 +0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 10:33:24 -0500 Message-ID: <1600.1509982404@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 15:34:20 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > [Hannes] I am somewhat surprised to hear that there are people in the > industry that do not believe that encrypting firmware isn't a > requirement frequently raised. Note that this is not a requirement we > at ARM came up with. It is a requirement coming from the industry > partners. course, we can make everything proprietary as we do today. = If > some people don't want to use encrypted firmware images then they do > not need to use that part of the spec. I believe that we are all in agreement that integrity checks for the firmwa= re image is mandatory. There are different ways that we can accomplish this, but if we go the way of using an already specified container format that supports signatures, it's usually the case that one can have encryption as well. Container formats would include: CMS, JOSE, COSE. Signatures are sort of easy as the creator of the firmware signs it, and the devices validate it with a (public) key. The challenge with encryption is that one has to figure out how the decryption key is distributed. Of course, it could be baked in symmetric key, but many would suggest that is as good as no key at all. I think that this difficulty is where the conflict comes from. So my suggestion is that we should be focused on containers that support encryption, even if we choose not to provide a standard way to distribute t= he decryption key(s). =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJaAIDEAAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQiVUH/jF45fxPHO7CI+SX5aPbbKwY 97NEHpZHgQS12D/IMuVBB+padZqKaqWQIWN7sBzLZpsGy0sEAF4apv8Z48n65Ise +mc06/Yg70vdZb4kMqXuLPCup2zOhe+1Hz4SmxwRFYb2EOPxDYjH5E4HFESr21+B a+U2L5KBP8TwdA0IX869yrusqNtEmXP7UkwN6rf2M3rWyRYz3xWJBtWp0/QdTtqz V5UbQdqsz3+tOKvTIPPqIp+PurZBSi60jogY8qvRoiHw4biiZbL8VaTa4vquG/23 78h3W0+R4K74mrof/puFNN+e1nwjMaFtc54HgCYpm4jJ4hgq4LoD9Aq5neK3Q+0= =Kaqy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 6 07:48:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA7413FAE8; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:48:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RszMYYieY9pY; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:48:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF7B813FAD9; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:48:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.32.60.122] (50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id vA6FlACc070746 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:47:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141] claimed to be [10.32.60.122] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "The IESG" Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 07:48:34 -0800 Message-ID: <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.7r5425) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 15:48:38 -0000 On 3 Nov 2017, at 11:43, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) wrote: >>>> The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest >>>> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result >>>> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. >> >>> I’m slightly confused by this charter proposal. >>> The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. >>> Is this the current proposed text? >> >> I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was >> aiming for. The >> draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I >> don't see >> any list traffic asking for that. > > The guidance we received from the IESG is that they want the question > around one or more formats resolved during the chartering process. That's not the way that I read the charter balloting comments on this list. The mailing list clearly has no consensus yet, and nothing in the proposed manifest contents so far would make using ASN.1 or CBOR a more obvious choice. > We have had a number of views expressed on the list. We need to focus > in on what the consensus within the group is. We need to identify what > our initial work items will be regarding format(s). > > To that end, this text can be updated. Do you have alternate text to > propose? The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents of a manifest. Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick one format (and its associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest. >>>> Use of the ASN.1 encoding >>>> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used >>>> within current IoT operating systems. >> >> The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to >> cite >> "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each >> implement its >> own ASN.1 stack. > > How would you change this text to improve it? Two likely candidates for encoding are ASN.1 and CBOR, both of which already have support in current IoT crypto libraries. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Mon Nov 6 07:51:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EF913FC33 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:51:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AMRrtSVLolES for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F2FF13FC07 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (199-7-159-58.eng.wind.ca [199.7.159.58]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E3311F8FB; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 15:51:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2E4A135A3; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:50:18 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "suit\@ietf.org" cc: Martin Thomson In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Martin Thomson message dated "Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:38:45 +1100." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 10:50:18 -0500 Message-ID: <2309.1509983418@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 15:51:16 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Martin Thomson wrote: > If, as you suggest, this is done as part of a larger framework that > addresses delivery, why could you not assume that the update and > manifest are already present? That the larger framework can be > responsible for matching manifest to update? For example, if you > choose HTTP, link relation between one and t'other would be simple > enough and neatly put finding firmware out of scope for the manifest. > Then you avoid having the manifest deal with the messy details of > locators (which is the area in the draft that is messiest, at least in > my view). I want to make sure that I understand you correctly. You are saying, if the device found the manifest at: https://example.com/foo/bar/device/manufest.ext and the manifest says the load firmware, "XQN456.bin" that one would find it at: https://example.com/foo/bar/device/XQN456.bin and if it came from: tftp://192.168.1.1/foo/bar/device/manufest.ext that the firmware is at: tftp://192.168.1.1/foo/bar/device/XQN456.bin =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJaAIS5AAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQPtsH/3X2BvhHPfQcucefeTAiQF/A YZQJ/onZeqBPRdZZYQZhx3nXfMbe3Ij96lR6GcSoXRfvujVIttJSu3KXgC17Ik7U sPCWpDZ0T0G9Y8TkO4BvRdab9WuLzw0qlXFX1DmTBxaIzXObWQkGp5roJ037UrCP 4lFNhps16ortAfNZ8pCbS0edaWKV7klJKqQ+2FnNitH7eLngb5RhvViC7caYa5S+ 2Ly56xZUpjRpLBcI80G5MP4eQjrujz3UrhrseCKBqjTQuR/hDViOOJiKvA/f/TqV ArTACyWiHmwnY+f8LnDZRe7CFnugoqrToVYtzt5Bx66HA9CbDKO7NZbJilhYqZw= =8HyO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 6 08:14:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D5113FC52; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:14:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id etxDRtBrQ2da; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (relay2-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B07413FC07; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:14:27 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: 192.44.77.209 Received: from zax.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr (nat-asr-incub-b209.rennes.enst-bretagne.fr [192.44.77.209]) (Authenticated sender: alex@ackl.io) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4ABBDC5A56; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 17:14:24 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Alexander Pelov In-Reply-To: <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 17:14:24 +0100 Cc: The IESG , "suit@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 16:14:29 -0000 Dear Paul, all, > Le 6 nov. 2017 =C3=A0 16:48, Paul Hoffman a = =C3=A9crit : >=20 > On 3 Nov 2017, at 11:43, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) wrote: >=20 >>>>> The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest >>>>> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will = result >>>>> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best = practices. >>>=20 >>>> I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. >>>> The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. >>>> Is this the current proposed text? >>>=20 >>> I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was = aiming for. The >>> draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I = don't see >>> any list traffic asking for that. >>=20 >> The guidance we received from the IESG is that they want the question = around one or more formats resolved during the chartering process. >=20 > That's not the way that I read the charter balloting comments on this = list. The mailing list clearly has no consensus yet, and nothing in the = proposed manifest contents so far would make using ASN.1 or CBOR a more = obvious choice. I agree with this one. Lots of things changed from the proposed charter = discussed on the mailing list and the approved proposed one. (which is = of course something to work out around the BoF) (It seems to me that = there is a pretty wide interest in the topic, so at least that one seems = a spot-on.) We=E2=80=99ve already had a very interesting mail from Philip = Hallam-Baker that had strong arguments AGAINST ASN.1, and I have not = seen a response to it on the ML. If anyone has a view on this I would be = very interested in having more information. Best, Alexander >=20 >> We have had a number of views expressed on the list. We need to focus = in on what the consensus within the group is. We need to identify what = our initial work items will be regarding format(s). >>=20 >> To that end, this text can be updated. Do you have alternate text to = propose? >=20 > The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents of = a manifest. > Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick = one format > (and its associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest. >=20 >>>>> Use of the ASN.1 encoding >>>>> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries = used >>>>> within current IoT operating systems. >>>=20 >>> The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to = cite >>> "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each = implement its >>> own ASN.1 stack. >>=20 >> How would you change this text to improve it? >=20 > Two likely candidates for encoding are ASN.1 and CBOR, both of which = already have > support in current IoT crypto libraries. >=20 > --Paul Hoffman >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit From nobody Mon Nov 6 08:17:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BA113FADB; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:17:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <4C07D6A28C09CB4F89C170DF03D803FB@akamai.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-06_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1711060225 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-11-06_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1707230000 definitions=main-1711060225 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 16:17:51 -0000 4p6iIFdl4oCZdmUgYWxyZWFkeSBoYWQgYSB2ZXJ5IGludGVyZXN0aW5nIG1haWwgZnJvbSBQaGls aXAgSGFsbGFtLUJha2VyIHRoYXQgaGFkIHN0cm9uZyBhcmd1bWVudHMgQUdBSU5TVCBBU04uMSwg YW5kIEkgaGF2ZSBub3Qgc2VlbiBhIHJlc3BvbnNlIHRvIGl0IG9uIHRoZSBNTC4gSWYgYW55b25l IGhhcyBhIHZpZXcgb24gdGhpcyBJIHdvdWxkIGJlIHZlcnkgaW50ZXJlc3RlZCBpbiBoYXZpbmcg bW9yZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi4NCiAgICANCkkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCBQaGlsaXAgdGhhdCB3ZSBzaG91 bGQgbm90IGJlIGNyZWF0aW5nIG5ldyBkYXRhIHN0cnVjdHVyZXMgaW4gQVNOLjE7IHRoZXJlIGFy ZSBzaW1wbGVyLCBwZXJmb3JtYW50LCBmb3JtYXRzIHJlYWRpbHkgYXZhaWxhYmxlLg0KDQooSeKA mW0gYSBtZW1iZXIgb2YgdGhlIGRldmVsb3BtZW50IHRlYW0gb2YgT3BlblNTTCwgYW5kIHdoaWxl IHdl4oCZbGwgbmV2ZXIgZ2V0IGF3YXkgZnJvbSBBU04uMS9ERVIgZm9yIGNyeXB0byB3b3JrLCB0 aGVyZeKAmXMgZW5vdWdoIHNjaGFkZW5mcmV1ZGUgaW4gdGhlIHdvcmxkIHRoYXQgd2UgZG9u4oCZ dCBuZWVkIHRvIGFkZCB0byBpdC4pDQoNCg0K From nobody Mon Nov 6 08:24:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CA513FC55; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:24:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8IdfuYfFP0_3; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76EF613FC07; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:24:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (ipv6.dooku.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:6::1]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47E291F8FB; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 16:24:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 880973507; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 11:23:20 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: The IESG , "suit\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> Comments: In-reply-to "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" message dated "Fri, 03 Nov 2017 18:43:57 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 11:23:20 -0500 Message-ID: <4043.1509985400@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 16:24:17 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Waltermire, David A. (Fed) wrote: > My comments are inline below. >> >> The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest >> >> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will resu= lt >> >> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practice= s. >>=20 >> > I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. > The rec= ent >> mailing list discussion went into a different direction. > Is this >> the current proposed text? >>=20 >> I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was >> aiming for. The draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG >> into ASN.1, and I don't see any list traffic asking for that. > The guidance we received from the IESG is that they want the question > around one or more formats resolved during the chartering process. We > have had a number of views expressed on the list. We need to focus in > on what the consensus within the group is. We need to identify what o= ur > initial work items will be regarding format(s). I can understand why the IESG would like the question resolved in the chart= er so that we can make progress rather than have a format war. I do not believe that we have consensus for an RFC4108/ASN.1 based format, and I think that writing that into the charter at this time will render the WG dysfunctional. (People will go elsewhere). I'm not convinced that we have consensus that we must have a single firmware container format (a few people say it must be a single format).=20=20 I also do not think that we have consensus that multiple formats is bad, there is still a tuscle here. I think that the problem may be solved by splitting the manifest semantics contents from the implementation format. We have done this in ANIMA with draft-ietf-anima-voucher: we abstracted to YANG, and then present examples based upon a CMS/PKCS based solution as an example. We did this based upon feedback from some developers that they needed this, yet we want to move forward to JOSE and COSE/CWT solutions.=20 =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJaAIx4AAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQa5MH/iM+RsfkSfVDOYtHe7dAIUyx rhDPzbwgkJeV2q8c/mI7u78OrfoES5kfI9G/fL3AENBEvvpmbu82FtiZUO7Xk5PC rtW9KrAcA9vxa1wcRZdj5ZgIkhetqr9qofrQQMS8tf3H0mqOcArraaOWkyBunQ6o /E9nYcMeva+CCffBkVlcbYJ6CRHotDC+BO07+YAAxghxTkpqKC6bcUjyhUYne2F9 +J7JT4oK0gEo1jYGuZa6GCxwKYUsMb75fnBynbir8HwlM14H2Gg+fZ1oFJIL7pgC Pw9ef4c5Kz3mE7kETRq2i+GiI2c3S1xf0CAQpOquajc12VuWlnHhi4Cj8kakjIU= =R24b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 6 08:25:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A260213FB80 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:24:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L-_Ge6HOor-h for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x230.google.com (mail-yw0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF85413FB27 for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x230.google.com with SMTP id k11so8306395ywh.1 for ; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 08:24:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dlg6fL9vQc4I/K2A0h24XXxnhwyD2NHsRqddAsiUR6s=; b=nDMB7+Th1b6kmyx5IM8TEBUeT1+YfD0OexRwX/67T5kHg7SeH+wojxVpzhSMPq9JSt MgoBSQ7mrUWIPCo4SBVsIc4/oOxX0jFjlUlse+RGmg9HqdaN07tnCVYYNs48ABL+hJ1W yknkP0dnyC90R4RSdvt18v3o8r0nVD1OFj7l6Ed41C/kIXAna3dPwusgGu/1CoEJepop tnUVla7RHAiiFpTedkNcLs1Nsai3Kc7TiHjquzjA0RsuzFX6HVxM/8B9iT96csateQeO LDTXxPo0HbzqKosEavO/b/ZMaukHp/fn+sq6pRyfjl3anhl0Ym0GUCVTV6MYsrKkPibH Shtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dlg6fL9vQc4I/K2A0h24XXxnhwyD2NHsRqddAsiUR6s=; b=Izk61spfZmfTTgy04ovTvRBjCr4S8o1F9ZUEt8/vbIY2kG6SbbP87Wx/rNzrKBww1M LU7r9sdY/MwUIvNlWaLVir/rrAOafVLevb0P8h9a4eSWgI6wepLit04Uz4AcNydtMeKm OZNDMjmLe4Zp9JIeGM3LwQ300RXj5nIBvxS+5mulCj46BwQoP7IasZUhJlproS3CqFPr /IsdGH7LYJGE265DfX1aMEMSQEa0jTohvvKFYeX4niSRD0x9N1Lmz3r/pPQWLfUe01d4 6fhxkUQJHmJGRZS725YbTax5rk1+Zz/6yhZFYvBYt8NRk+EYyhpyOOurdohwFmu5VgIE YKYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaUfznAXpgHL+DEW/fqLvEf6W2oX+kSk7Q0jADmKEb1bhI2agSaf o/BNiZdfs0Hxne58JfIfRIATYpyAIjEv8w6i6NcdOw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+SOuxmupFhQhZ9qD8lLqsGF7LuL3Ruu2vVdrrO/1fi9vAznuPGQlI5p7Qc9i0NRT8m5JWcOzVVhPA3Y/j9SO1s= X-Received: by 10.13.192.196 with SMTP id b187mr10376987ywd.416.1509985491980; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 08:24:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.129.61.12 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:24:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:24:11 -0800 Message-ID: To: Alexander Pelov Cc: Paul Hoffman , "suit@ietf.org" , The IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114edd48ddacd5055d52e4a6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 16:24:56 -0000 --001a114edd48ddacd5055d52e4a6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:14 AM, Alexander Pelov wrote: > Dear Paul, all, > > > Le 6 nov. 2017 =C3=A0 16:48, Paul Hoffman a =C3= =A9crit : > > > > On 3 Nov 2017, at 11:43, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) wrote: > > > >>>>> The initial focus of this group will be development of a manifest > >>>>> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This work will result > >>>>> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current best practices. > >>> > >>>> I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. > >>>> The recent mailing list discussion went into a different direction. > >>>> Is this the current proposed text? > >>> > >>> I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traffic was > aiming for. The > >>> draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into ASN.1, and I > don't see > >>> any list traffic asking for that. > >> > >> The guidance we received from the IESG is that they want the question > around one or more formats resolved during the chartering process. > > > > That's not the way that I read the charter balloting comments on this > list. The mailing list clearly has no consensus yet, and nothing in the > proposed manifest contents so far would make using ASN.1 or CBOR a more > obvious choice. > > I agree with this one. Lots of things changed from the proposed charter > discussed on the mailing list and the approved proposed one. (which is of > course something to work out around the BoF) (It seems to me that there i= s > a pretty wide interest in the topic, so at least that one seems a spot-on= .) > > We=E2=80=99ve already had a very interesting mail from Philip Hallam-Bake= r that > had strong arguments AGAINST ASN.1, and I have not seen a response to it = on > the ML. If anyone has a view on this I would be very interested in having > more information. > I don't feel strongly about this, but RFC 4108 already is in ASN.1, so presumably the argument is "we're revising that" -Ekr > Best, > Alexander > > > > > > >> We have had a number of views expressed on the list. We need to focus > in on what the consensus within the group is. We need to identify what ou= r > initial work items will be regarding format(s). > >> > >> To that end, this text can be updated. Do you have alternate text to > propose? > > > > The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents of = a > manifest. > > Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick on= e > format > > (and its associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest. > > > >>>>> Use of the ASN.1 encoding > >>>>> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto libraries used > >>>>> within current IoT operating systems. > >>> > >>> The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurate to ci= te > >>> "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a system might each > implement its > >>> own ASN.1 stack. > >> > >> How would you change this text to improve it? > > > > Two likely candidates for encoding are ASN.1 and CBOR, both of which > already have > > support in current IoT crypto libraries. > > > > --Paul Hoffman > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Suit mailing list > > Suit@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > --001a114edd48ddacd5055d52e4a6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:14 AM, Alexander Pelov <<= a href=3D"mailto:alexander@ackl.io" target=3D"_blank">alexander@ackl.io= > wrote:
Dear Paul, all,

> Le 6 nov. 2017 =C3=A0 16:48, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> a =C3=A9crit :
>
> On 3 Nov 2017, at 11:43, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) wrote:
>
>>>>> The initial focus of this group will be development of= a manifest
>>>>> approach based on CMS and the ASN.1 encoding. This wor= k will result
>>>>> in a revision of RFC 4108 that reflects the current be= st practices.
>>>
>>>> I=E2=80=99m slightly confused by this charter proposal. >>>> The recent mailing list discussion went into a different d= irection.
>>>> Is this the current proposed text?
>>>
>>> I agree with Carsten: that's not what the recent list traf= fic was aiming for. The
>>> draft charter from a month ago didn't force the WG into AS= N.1, and I don't see
>>> any list traffic asking for that.
>>
>> The guidance we received from the IESG is that they want the quest= ion around one or more formats resolved during the chartering process.
>
> That's not the way that I read the charter balloting comments on t= his list.=C2=A0 The mailing list clearly has no consensus yet, and nothing = in the proposed manifest contents so far would make using ASN.1 or CBOR a m= ore obvious choice.

I agree with this one. Lots of things changed from the proposed char= ter discussed on the mailing list and the approved proposed one. (which is = of course something to work out around the BoF) (It seems to me that there = is a pretty wide interest in the topic, so at least that one seems a spot-o= n.)

We=E2=80=99ve already had a very interesting mail from Philip Hallam-Baker = that had strong arguments AGAINST ASN.1, and I have not seen a response to = it on the ML. If anyone has a view on this I would be very interested in ha= ving more information.

I don't feel= strongly about this, but RFC 4108 already is in ASN.1, so presumably the a= rgument is "we're revising that"

-Ek= r


Best,
Alexander



>
>> We have had a number of views expressed on the list. We need to fo= cus in on what the consensus within the group is. We need to identify what = our initial work items will be regarding format(s).
>>
>> To that end, this text can be updated. Do you have alternate text = to propose?
>
> The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents of= a manifest.
> Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick o= ne format
> (and its associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest.<= br> >
>>>>> Use of the ASN.1 encoding
>>>>> is desirable due to existing ASN.1 support in crypto l= ibraries used
>>>>> within current IoT operating systems.
>>>
>>> The same could be said for CBOR/COSE. It is probably inaccurat= e to cite
>>> "ASN.1 support" given that different parts of a syst= em might each implement its
>>> own ASN.1 stack.
>>
>> How would you change this text to improve it?
>
> Two likely candidates for encoding are ASN.1 and CBOR, both of which a= lready have
> support in current IoT crypto libraries.
>
> --Paul Hoffman
>
> _______________________= ________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

--001a114edd48ddacd5055d52e4a6-- From nobody Mon Nov 6 08:47:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617F513FB36; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:47:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LFPCjmPA7Nfr; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:47:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-he1eur01on0054.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.0.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22F1B13FAF6; 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SRVR:AM4PR0801MB2708; x-forefront-prvs: 048396AFA0 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(376002)(39860400002)(346002)(40434004)(189002)(199003)(3846002)(2950100002)(102836003)(3280700002)(74316002)(25786009)(5660300001)(7696004)(33656002)(101416001)(50986999)(76176999)(54356999)(305945005)(7736002)(105586002)(15650500001)(6506006)(6246003)(6116002)(106356001)(4326008)(189998001)(53936002)(55016002)(6436002)(9686003)(3660700001)(8936002)(8676002)(81156014)(2906002)(81166006)(68736007)(229853002)(14454004)(86362001)(93886005)(97736004)(478600001)(5890100001)(5250100002)(99286004)(2900100001)(66066001)(316002)(72206003)(110136005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM4PR0801MB2708; H:AM4PR0801MB2706.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 52697f10-5057-4f0c-f254-08d525360446 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2017 16:47:07.1607 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR0801MB2708 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 16:47:12 -0000 UGF1bCBzYWlkOg0KDQo+IFR3byBsaWtlbHkgY2FuZGlkYXRlcyBmb3IgZW5jb2RpbmcgYXJlIEFT Ti4xIGFuZCBDQk9SLCBib3RoIG9mIHdoaWNoIGFscmVhZHkgaGF2ZSBzdXBwb3J0IGluIGN1cnJl bnQgSW9UIGNyeXB0byBsaWJyYXJpZXMuDQoNCldoaWxlIGFuIEFTTi4xIHBhcnNlciBpcyBwcmV0 dHkgbXVjaCBpbiBldmVyeSBjcnlwdG8gbGlicmFyeSB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIENCT1IgKHBhcnRpY3Vs YXJseSB3aXRoIENPU0UpIGlzIHN0aWxsIGF0IGEgdmVyeSBlYXJseSBzdGFnZS4NCg0KQ2lhbw0K SGFubmVzDQoNCklNUE9SVEFOVCBOT1RJQ0U6IFRoZSBjb250ZW50cyBvZiB0aGlzIGVtYWlsIGFu ZCBhbnkgYXR0YWNobWVudHMgYXJlIGNvbmZpZGVudGlhbCBhbmQgbWF5IGFsc28gYmUgcHJpdmls ZWdlZC4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSBub3QgdGhlIGludGVuZGVkIHJlY2lwaWVudCwgcGxlYXNlIG5vdGlm eSB0aGUgc2VuZGVyIGltbWVkaWF0ZWx5IGFuZCBkbyBub3QgZGlzY2xvc2UgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnRz IHRvIGFueSBvdGhlciBwZXJzb24sIHVzZSBpdCBmb3IgYW55IHB1cnBvc2UsIG9yIHN0b3JlIG9y IGNvcHkgdGhlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGluIGFueSBtZWRpdW0uIFRoYW5rIHlvdS4NCg== From nobody Mon Nov 6 09:12:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA4213FAF7; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:12:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AKs12Yxmcdln; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D80BF13FC58; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [169.254.83.43] (50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id vA6HAtVj079676 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 6 Nov 2017 10:10:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141] claimed to be [169.254.83.43] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "The IESG" Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 09:12:20 -0800 Message-ID: <3E237CA3-A36E-4DAA-AFD7-601611798C4B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.7r5425) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 17:12:25 -0000 On 6 Nov 2017, at 8:24, Eric Rescorla wrote: > I don't feel strongly about this, but RFC 4108 already is in ASN.1, so > presumably the argument is "we're revising that" I have not seen much desire for actually revising RFC 4108 on the mailing list. There is definitely interest in looking at the manifest in RFC 4108 and using the appropriate parts. RFC 4108 was an individual submission for a specific use case that preceded the idea of almost-unmanaged lightweight IoT devices, and thus might not be appropriate for revision in the eventual WG. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Mon Nov 6 12:41:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6764F13FBC9; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:41:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id geTCQ0zsY5h5; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:41:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F73C13FBC5; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:41:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:1885:6aa7:3888:140e]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F242C1F8FB; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:41:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 6773535A3; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 15:40:52 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "The IESG" , "suit\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> Comments: In-reply-to "Paul Hoffman" message dated "Mon, 06 Nov 2017 07:48:34 -0800." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 15:40:52 -0500 Message-ID: <18637.1510000852@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 20:41:53 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Hoffman wrote: > The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents o= f a > manifest. > Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick = one > format > (and its associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest. This seems good for me. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJaAMjUAAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQSVMH/0WQtE6f0y/4nE2Uu4BdUgml x0y+A1I/oRIPbI0e+P9JRCs8/PU7cdWoFhJ1zDLzxIk5HBGZN7sV46SfMfkc5zzJ JPB6OkS0Ksf0iIm7vvO9PpadzaaUQUIEmRIjx/QDgWDnVaaYLyChXOtAO0XBYPc4 z6TbImX7yu9PAZtXxUBG1EAgA8tnrpuofwIc3BcJzqeECfuFpCFXEtJI/fBAEpzH uEqQAtkZYNxCsbns/i/lX37rwxcWA2AU65P8pIe7f1Dr5RBQNHtmK9vYMUhlOPSX PudX2A9Pn5j2IKMMAoeNRBMKtb8KjeE06tbFTZdx4bnh3WA7ELzgnr7jHYTU5T0= =Py7l -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 6 13:31:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 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-0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=armh.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-arm-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=WUmyA4ij5fAU4GuphZ2Gag4bh+ueg8K5Q5HEHB9r53c=; b=hG3HwH+IawVeLMBfk26wnzGlPcIqP61NP4NxbYE259v/8RBu5abPzHzco8UKUPqDDB+kvtiARJ43RmOZX4nZsY9Dy4ykL7L18UjX7meBKXlRp0zZKVvBjrPrnXtbq9G4R/xwXpqUn6Sd8PEv9DBS9nfHV2STBCfidCy4uPsbKpM= Received: from DB5PR08MB0615.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.169.32.149) by DB5PR08MB0614.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.169.32.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.197.13; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:31:34 +0000 Received: from DB5PR08MB0615.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b123:af71:1ed2:1057]) by DB5PR08MB0615.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b123:af71:1ed2:1057%14]) with mapi id 15.20.0197.019; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:31:34 +0000 From: Brendan Moran To: Michael Richardson CC: "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Suit] Manifest format encodings 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received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e8bb9402-350e-4b4f-075c-08d5255dc0fa X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Nov 2017 21:31:34.1184 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5PR08MB0614 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest format encodings X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:31:39 -0000 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eSBtZWRpdW0uIFRoYW5rIHlvdS4NCg== From nobody Mon Nov 6 14:50:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90B513FB70; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 14:50:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.083 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.083 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_TAG_BALANCE_HEAD=0.817, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ojyfnee_QC-5; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 14:50:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from iron02.fraunhofer.de (iron02.fraunhofer.de [153.96.1.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC33D13FAC5; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 14:50:50 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A2HUAgAh299Z/xoHYZleGwEBAQMBAQEJAQEBgwZXZG4nB4NzmVGBdpBwh1EKH4FigzoChD9XAQIBAQEBAQIDaCiEBywtPgEFI08XCQIEARMqAgJXBgESih0FAY4FnWeCJ4s8AQEBAQEBAQMBAQEBAQEBAQEBAR2DLYIHgVGCFYJ/hGUBAR6DEy+CMgWKHJcogQiBJpRQgXSEAINVBYcukgKDPAIEBgUCGQGBOViBDlMmbwGHC3WJIoEkAYEQAQEB X-IPAS-Result: A2HUAgAh299Z/xoHYZleGwEBAQMBAQEJAQEBgwZXZG4nB4NzmVGBdpBwh1EKH4FigzoChD9XAQIBAQEBAQIDaCiEBywtPgEFI08XCQIEARMqAgJXBgESih0FAY4FnWeCJ4s8AQEBAQEBAQMBAQEBAQEBAQEBAR2DLYIHgVGCFYJ/hGUBAR6DEy+CMgWKHJcogQiBJpRQgXSEAINVBYcukgKDPAIEBgUCGQGBOViBDlMmbwGHC3WJIoEkAYEQAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.43,368,1503352800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="81710361" Received: from mail-mtas26.fraunhofer.de ([153.97.7.26]) by iron02.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 06 Nov 2017 23:50:47 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.44,354,1505772000"; d="scan'208,217";a="955206" Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de ([141.12.72.89]) by mail-mtaS26.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Nov 2017 23:50:46 +0100 Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id vA6Moikn005341 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:50:45 +0100 Received: from [10.142.7.89] (80.187.123.134) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:50:39 +0100 Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 23:50:35 +0100 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <18637.1510000852@dooku.sandelman.ca> References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> <18637.1510000852@dooku.sandelman.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----DCZ5ISUPAWWWXPNOX0M4XIQUBZAIP0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: , Michael Richardson , The IESG From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <31D7BECD-9B00-4D4F-AFE6-27FE38D8E742@sit.fraunhofer.de> X-Originating-IP: [80.187.123.134] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 22:50:57 -0000 ------DCZ5ISUPAWWWXPNOX0M4XIQUBZAIP0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, my intend is not to annoy anyone, really, but I think I have to ask this o= ne question: If the initial focus is not about format (+1) - in respect to = rfc3444 - does this imply that the initial focus will be about a data model= , including data types and the interconnected relationship of its contents? Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Henk On November 6, 2017 9:40:52 PM GMT+01:00, Michael Richardson wrote: > >Paul Hoffman wrote: >> The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents >of a > > manifest=2E >> Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick >one > > format >> (and its associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest=2E > >This seems good for me=2E > >--=20 >] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh >networks [=20 >] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network >architect [=20 >] mcr@sandelman=2Eca http://www=2Esandelman=2Eca/ | ruby on >rails [=20 >=09 --=20 Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E ------DCZ5ISUPAWWWXPNOX0M4XIQUBZAIP0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
my intend is not to annoy anyone, really, but I think I have to ask this o= ne question: If the initial focus is not about format (+1) - in respect to = rfc3444 - does this imply that the initial focus will be about a data model= , including data types and the interconnected relationship of its contents?=

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

that the initial focus is to create a data model, including d= ata types?^
On November 6, 2017 9:40:52 PM GMT= 3;01:00, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman=2Eca> wrote: 

Paul Hoffman <paul=2Ehoffman@vpnc=2Eorg> w=
rote:
 The initial fo=
cus of this group will be development of the contents of a
 manifest=2E<=
br> Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick on=
e
 format
 (and its associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode th=
e manifest=2E

-- 

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2Ekq=
uote>
This seems good for me=2E
------DCZ5ISUPAWWWXPNOX0M4XIQUBZAIP0-- From nobody Mon Nov 6 16:03:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4D013FCA1; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 16:03:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EBDBGbQa_4uO; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 16:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (honeydukes.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2a01:7e00::3d:b021]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2018E13F698; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 16:03:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [199.119.235.201]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 250461F8FB; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 00:03:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 7DEA935A3; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 19:02:26 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Henk Birkholz cc: suit@ietf.org, The IESG In-reply-to: <31D7BECD-9B00-4D4F-AFE6-27FE38D8E742@sit.fraunhofer.de> References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> <18637.1510000852@dooku.sandelman.ca> <31D7BECD-9B00-4D4F-AFE6-27FE38D8E742@sit.fraunhofer.de> Comments: In-reply-to Henk Birkholz message dated "Mon, 06 Nov 2017 23:50:35 +0100." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2017 19:02:26 -0500 Message-ID: <24616.1510012946@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:03:23 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Henk Birkholz wrote: > my intend is not to annoy anyone, really, but I think I have to ask > this one question: If the initial focus is not about format (+1) - in > respect to rfc3444 - does this imply that the initial focus will be > about a data model, including data types and the interconnected > relationship of its contents?=20=20 > initial focus is to create a data model, including data types?^ If you mean, are we writing YANG (or some other meta-language), then then answer could yes, but I interpret things to mean that it doesn't have to be. It could be just english. Having said this, I have read draft-moran-suit-manifest-00 finally, and I think that I could live with this specification.=20=20 =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJaAPgSAAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQuKgH/13uH4SdQyr9wTaCEJtowSwj XmsFHlNSzGhhaTqq7LQFwkX6YCicVUR3ccNE64ucB7g8n0+VQDUAZznqkC4LtTcf 2idb05DLFA+Sndj+Sv42yLRyPIWjOq+0sK1rPVEraD7fndeUjcCR/bSSedbpmX1V dfmsZ9A/4N4rkp8/qeeotNWat0KIr2nr5jmpKldKJwJ//bDt3ChUhkd92wap74Eq XpZJrMAKJMShBusBgm9F0vdADefUtgESXFenejpN+RYrLS80AkIGM6ye7RdVgmc2 0FcxRIswEf1jsXxt1LLXKxTIihwJotzVyU5dmwb4zoWPH8Q3SFViO+LsksjQg4o= =ivPl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Nov 6 20:03:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15DF313FADE for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:03:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1AQ_jPCZtg_l for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x22d.google.com (mail-ot0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FD3713FACD for ; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id k10so11007787otb.0 for ; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 20:03:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aMaILnSBexQcA/ePtg2i+5/cVUfSNTVj9jdUvuwwR70=; b=b0ocVhfDtgFaBNnMzozYoaD7masPUirwa65kcWEziVMMujApGRIXRE9Ae3UV2EZLiw iANfClFXCb7/fXilLfsWxUD1g6VNvlz1eF1AyOetDwpkdv0Ka7w0PyjJKS9HORJCrTQz qh9A/LFd37msq5/d6k/Az9dj1umDyiJkX71gh3gP0us6dfKlT14Hj/V530FH4R91wY4L IaM1i0R0IsyWo4kTF29FiiYhqmL4+kk7ItwSi7O22/+UneMeByUGgVdyJZO5zaPmfOU7 x1KZUdtNaGI+QskLZlQc50x2M4jY646XyvLItTr9mT5FtFrPvM86iON9rfKsdwq0gwB4 3Kmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aMaILnSBexQcA/ePtg2i+5/cVUfSNTVj9jdUvuwwR70=; b=kVphtrKYebJ5fNPvpb5ZV8GTGPTu6vUvGmGROspMHixVNh4H5S3pF8YtT+2ktWFm7F NgN9CnjuB5IStlOYrdCIgxWBPZ0K2qs2gh6Tp7LReE/DFjyAfDo7CEaIUDMOtIbwFRoj HSnZffnu+85DOWxpAJzcdfNczfZp9T/cDnc4lN7kDis8I57x90SwUQeLFlLLpLdeAXlj GH5OxIkAaWIU12h3Cgp68anvClosnsUts38jCdQwRDquvXdkX1KdL+7oCp3ULA7NKpZQ nlhT2fhRTzc8/WcHc+eDIGhfII4Dl5H+82RC/faHZXJtDO3k0ZRVevUeo/3x8VIjlqvQ 6iJQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5clggB/j4D6Nv/aMd1GW4UNG0yL8+e7g1jBnx1lYro12ZaW2yQ yNzXwFh69P0Qg/SjazJleZuRLejs7EezLSVzB6s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QZ6B9boZrQDPaVxHeHD7bsZEB0Iwh2sNr4MpGb97ywOmXnC+bpEDDmEnJ6mlq/Ukb/cFRO8q2agV0Yv5KXjc8= X-Received: by 10.157.89.159 with SMTP id u31mr577550oth.401.1510027413753; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 20:03:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.157.15.155 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Nov 2017 20:03:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Martin Thomson Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 15:03:33 +1100 Message-ID: To: Brendan Moran Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] draft-moran manifest thoughts X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 04:03:37 -0000 On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Brendan Moran wrote= : > Hi Martin, > > This is a great place to start. But I don=E2=80=99t think that =E2=80=9Cs= hould this update be applied=E2=80=9D is complete. There also needs to be = =E2=80=9COkay, it should be applied, now what do I do with it.=E2=80=9D > > Here is the list of questions I have collected that devices need to answe= r: > > * Does the device trust the author of the update? > * Has the update been corrupted? > * Is the update authentic? > * Does the update apply to this device? > * Is the update older than a previous update? > * What kind of update is it? > * When should the device apply the update? > * How should the device apply the update? > * Where should it obtain the update from? > * Where should it store the update? > > There are certain to be more questions to answer. You miss my point. Those are questions that might help you reach a decision about whether to apply the update. They might important (though not all seem equally important in this context, see below), but only to the extent that they aid in answering the primary question. They are only relevant to the extent that a decision depends on them. And that depends on the policy that the device is applying. Of the questions you have, I think that there might be several policies that are implied. Concentrating on the policies is more likely to be productive. 1. Only apply updates that are authorized by the entity that I understand to be an "owner" of this device. 2. Only apply updates that are identified as applying to this type of device, as certified by the device manufacturer. 3. As 2, but identifying the component rather than the entire "thing". 4. Only apply updates that increase in version number, unless additionally authorized by the "owner" of the device. 5. Only apply updates that increase the major version number if they are explicitly authorized by the "owner" of the device. 6. Only apply updates if the version of all components the update depends on matches those required by the update. I don't understand why questions of storage can't be answered by the device, using the information presented. I mean, if the update is for component X, then it should have a process for managing that update, including how it applies it (i.e., storageIdentifer.type isn't needed) and where it stores it. >> The 4122 identifiers seem overly prescriptive; I can't see why a >> vendor-specified string is not OK: one for the type of device, and one >> for the specific device. Part of the motivation for 4122-style >> identifiers is to avoid collisions, but I don't see that as necessary >> here - any party that is authorizing changes can manage to ensure that >> the identifiers they sign don't collide. > > This is partly about identifier collision. You=E2=80=99re quite right tha= t this is not a concerning problem in the simple case. If the device trusts= the author of an update, then it should be fine. But things get more compl= icated the deeper a supply chain gets. Eventually, it=E2=80=99s entirely po= ssible to have two, identically named models of IoT light switch with ident= ical manufacturer names on the same network. If that happens and an operato= r has the rights to provision configuration on both of them, there could be= serious interoperability consequences to this situation. > > Now, I=E2=80=99ll admit that this sounds a little far-fetched. I think it= =E2=80=99s just on the edge of plausibility. That being said, what does it = cost to guarantee it doesn=E2=80=99t happen? OK, there are two different things: controller X in device A and controller X in device B. Isn't that how the manifest would identify them? "Vendor Foo, Device A, Controller X" ? You are saying that you want to use the same identification all the way through the supply chain. And you want that because you have a single manifest. I think that's potentially problematic. Taking Carsten's example of signed claims, why could you not say two things: Issuer: Controller X manufacturer Audience: Controller X Claim: This is a valid software update for controller X Claim: This is version X.1.37 And separately: Issuer: Device A Manufacturer Audience: Device A Claim: This is a valid software update for device A Claim: This update requires that Controller Y have version Y.0.2 The device could then have a general policy that checked the second set of claims. If those checks pass, it applies the policy for the controller, which only accepts updates for that controller. The problem with a single flat manifest is that you have to have both controller X manufacturer and device A manufacturer sign the same manifest. That doesn't suit a serialized supply chain. > The timestamp is not properly justified in the manifest draft. The timest= amp is in place for rollback protection. Originally, we had intended to inc= lude a monotonic counter field for rollback protection, however this create= s usability problems when multiple actors may need to transmit updates. To = ensure that all authorised actors would be able to transmit updates without= needing to first determine the value of the monotonic rollback counter, we= decided to use an integer UTC epoch timestamp. This ensures a monotonicall= y increasing anti-rollback counter, that just happens to be globally synchr= onised. That still doesn't justify making it mandatory. It's a fine solution, but you are recommending making everyone accept your design. And there are many devices that don't have clocks. > The payload info is in place to answer these questions: > * What kind of update is it? > * Where should the device obtain the update from? > * Where should the device store the update? > * How big is the update? > * Has the update been corrupted? You need to better motivate why any of these questions need answers. If the update needs to be authorized, and the update bits are signed, then corruption is managed. And the "kind of update" should be "the kind of update that this device expects". As for the rest of these, you argue elsewhere that delivery of the bits is out of scope, but these fields drag that delivery mechanism right back into scope. > I=E2=80=99m sure another data organisation could answer these questions a= s well, however each of the existing fields has a justification. Great. I look forward to reading it. >> storageIdentifier seems especially problematic. If you have a device >> type identifier, then that should suffice for those cases where there >> are multiple update targets on a device. That is, you can identify by >> generically identifying the type of thing that this update applies to: >> "vendor foo alarm clock configuration" rather than "vendor foo alarm >> clock" and it all works neatly. Right now the storageIdentifier is >> all tied up in the way that the update is identified. > > I fail to see how this is substantially different than two fields. If I a= m reading this correctly, then you are suggesting that it is better to say > > Firmware: [vendor foo alarm clock] > Config: [vendor foo alarm clock configuration] > > Instead of: > Firmware: [vendor foo alarm clock][firmware] > Config: [vendor foo alarm clock][configuration] > > This looks to me like it is conflating two different concepts. What probl= em are you trying to solve? Yes, I'm intentionally merging the two things. The point being that you have a single way to identify the *target* of the update. We do this with URIs all the time. At the level at which we generally use a URI, it's treated as an opaque string, and that goes double for paths. The problem with splitting these down is that you risk making the cuts at the wrong place. You haven't really established that a split is necessary for interoperability to have that split in the identifier, and without that it is better to leave the structure of these identifiers to those that manage those namespaces. > There is a strong reason for having conditions and directives as distinct= concepts. > * Conditions are tests that must be performed prior to accepting an updat= e. > * Directives are directions for how to use an update. That's not a strong reason, that's an argument from taxonomy: you are saying that because you can find a taxonomic difference, it is better to put the fields into separate buckets. But when it comes to interoperable formats, the fewer extension points you have, the more likely you are to find that those extensibility points work in 10 years time. Generic claims might sound to you like a regression, but we've experience that shows that fewer and better-used extension points work more reliably. Given that you have precisely one directive, and the one directive could be trivially recast as a condition (apply this update only when time >=3D X), that weakens the case for more buckets. > Dependencies certainly are the intended mechanism as it stands. I have se= en version-based dependency matching go quite badly in some situations, so = I=E2=80=99m leery to specify in something equivalent to semantic versioning= of dependencies, for example. Using hashes for versions provides a very st= rong assertion about the suitability of a particular dependency version. An= d is not vulnerable to the same problems with dependency mismatches. You are explicitly ruling out the possibility of using versioning for dependencies? That seems unwise to me. I agree that semantic version can be a minefield, but I wouldn't go so far as to deny others the possibility of using it. Also, on the last subject... why isn't a dependency a condition? You could realistically create multiple types over time (a hash-based one, and a version-based one later). > I can see an argument for placing storage IDs in dependencies, since that= shortcuts the requirement to walk a tree of manifests, which is a major pr= oblem in the storage of manifests on constrained devices. Are you talking about software that queries a database of updates searching for a compatible set of updates that it can apply? For a constrained device, I would have assumed that the device would more or less be given marching orders rather than go out searching for an upgrade path on its own. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8ff3dab6-b8d3-4b6d-b7bd-08d525d257f0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Nov 2017 11:26:09.0296 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0801MB2719 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 11:26:14 -0000 Hi Michael, > So my suggestion is that we should be focused on containers that support = encryption, even if we choose not to provide a standard way to distribute t= he decryption key(s). I completely agree with you. We should focus on the requirements rather tha= n what is easy to do. Funny enough, it turns out that we have already a standardized way to distr= ibute keys. Ciao Hannes -----Original Message----- From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: 06 November 2017 16:33 To: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > [Hannes] I am somewhat surprised to hear that there are people in the > industry that do not believe that encrypting firmware isn't a > requirement frequently raised. Note that this is not a requirement we > at ARM came up with. It is a requirement coming from the industry > partners. course, we can make everything proprietary as we do today. = If > some people don't want to use encrypted firmware images then they do > not need to use that part of the spec. I believe that we are all in agreement that integrity checks for the firmwa= re image is mandatory. There are different ways that we can accomplish thi= s, but if we go the way of using an already specified container format that= supports signatures, it's usually the case that one can have encryption as= well. Container formats would include: CMS, JOSE, COSE. Signatures are sort of easy as the creator of the firmware signs it, and th= e devices validate it with a (public) key. The challenge with encryption is that one has to figure out how the decrypt= ion key is distributed. Of course, it could be baked in symmetric key, but= many would suggest that is as good as no key at all. I think that this difficulty is where the conflict comes from. So my suggestion is that we should be focused on containers that support en= cryption, even if we choose not to provide a standard way to distribute the= decryption key(s). -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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Tue Nov 7 05:03:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6B113FE67; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 05:03:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7YfcwEluTLIg; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 05:03:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-edgeKA27.fraunhofer.de (mail-edgeka27.fraunhofer.de [153.96.1.27]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6724D13FE68; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 05:03:04 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: 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mail-mtaS26.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 07 Nov 2017 14:02:30 +0100 Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id vA7D2SEe029700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 7 Nov 2017 14:02:29 +0100 Received: from [134.102.160.167] (134.102.160.167) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 14:02:23 +0100 To: Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" , Michael Richardson , The IESG References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> <18637.1510000852@dooku.sandelman.ca> <31D7BECD-9B00-4D4F-AFE6-27FE38D8E742@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <6957528f-7a65-77b8-800e-ce52a1c79b2f@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 14:02:22 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.160.167] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 13:03:12 -0000 Hi Hannes, that was why I suggested a data model and not an information model in this scope. A data model can be serialized in several encodings - the only requirement is that the encoding can represent the types required by the data model - at least on a level that enables unambiguous/canonical transcoding and therefore interoperability. In a small scope like suit ("small" being relative in respect to other charters), I think one could start laying out a data model without requiring the extra steps of "finding the information elements". I also have to voice to support the approach to "learn" from CMS and RFC 4108 - and not just refactoring the concepts/contents. Also I would like to voice support for Phillip's and Rich's approach "that we should not be creating new data structures in ASN.1" as "there are simpler, performant, formats readily available." Just yesterday I met with a vendor that does firmware upgrades in isolated computing context slices of singular things - and they were amazed that "providing the capability of indicating block-device lables/indexes", "block-offsets in a block-device" and semantic relationships, such as "requires", "supersedes", or "patches" is not an obvious thing to be included in a manifest. The literal question they voiced was: "Why going through the hassle of creating a manifest for metadata, if you are not going to put useful metadata in it?" And I could understand their point of view. Additionally - on one hand - I would like to support the term claim in respect to the mix of terms highlighted by Martin: > It's not just terminology. There are three discrete fields in the > draft for conditions, directives and extensions. I am suggesting that > there only needs to be one. On the other hand, I am not so certain about this statement, Martin: > storageIdentifier seems especially problematic. If you have a device > type identifier, then that should suffice for those cases where there > are multiple update targets on a device. That is, you can identify by > generically identifying the type of thing that this update applies to: > "vendor foo alarm clock configuration" rather than "vendor foo alarm > clock" and it all works neatly. Right now the storageIdentifier is > all tied up in the way that the update is identified. Optional standard claims that MAY be used to provide additional semantics to a manifest do not sound so bad to me. Am I missing something here? Viele Grüße, Henk On 11/07/2017 12:33 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Henk, > > we could of course separate the encoding from the semantic of the > information we want to convey. If we do (using RFC 3444 terminology) > that then we would be working on the information model in one document > and in one or more documents on the data models. > > This would just delay the discussion about encodings not necessarily > resolve it. That may help since people have more time to think about it. > On the other hand, we didn’t want to turn this into a lifelong project. > > Ciao > Hannes > > *From:*Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Henk Birkholz > *Sent:* 06 November 2017 23:51 > *To:* suit@ietf.org; Michael Richardson; The IESG > *Subject:* Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things > (suit) > > > my intend is not to annoy anyone, really, but I think I have to ask this > one question: If the initial focus is not about format (+1) - in respect > to rfc3444 - does this imply that the initial focus will be about a data > model, including data types and the interconnected relationship of its > contents? > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > that the initial focus is to create a data model, including data types?^ > > On November 6, 2017 9:40:52 PM GMT+01:00, Michael Richardson > > wrote: > > > Paul Hoffman > wrote: > > The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents of a > manifest. > Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick one > format > (and its associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest. > > -- > > Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.kquote> > This seems good for me. > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy > the information in any medium. Thank you. From nobody Tue Nov 7 05:12:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62F3813FE6C; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 05:12:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdzx9w1Ep5J2; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 05:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR01-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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([fe80::65d5:69ef:ba63:1cf9]) by VI1PR0801MB2717.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::65d5:69ef:ba63:1cf9%14]) with mapi id 15.20.0197.020; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:12:25 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: Henk Birkholz , "suit@ietf.org" , Michael Richardson , The IESG Thread-Topic: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) Thread-Index: AQHTVMFL+iLnYCwU0kOnFPZGIVVbDKMC7sgAgAAD+ICAAAsmgIAEhf4AgABRqwCAACQ+gIAA0+9ggAAaDgCAAAFMwA== Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:12:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <150972672329.16422.18367622832369820976.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <3DBC689C-8369-47DB-9B81-ACA8C28B5926@tzi.org> <1A13A291-F0E9-4F03-96D7-0393C6F12F5B@vpnc.org> <18637.1510000852@dooku.sandelman.ca> <31D7BECD-9B00-4D4F-AFE6-27FE38D8E742@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6957528f-7a65-77b8-800e-ce52a1c79b2f@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <6957528f-7a65-77b8-800e-ce52a1c79b2f@sit.fraunhofer.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: dc7bbc46-ca14-4234-3271-08d525e33374 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Nov 2017 13:26:49.3068 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0801MB2720 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 13:26:54 -0000 SGkgUGF1bCwNCg0KSnVzdCBhIGZldyBub3Rlcy4NCg0KPiBJIGFncmVlIHdpdGggQ2Fyc3Rlbjog dGhhdCdzIG5vdCB3aGF0IHRoZSByZWNlbnQgbGlzdCB0cmFmZmljIHdhcyBhaW1pbmcgZm9yLiBU aGUgZHJhZnQgY2hhcnRlciBmcm9tIGEgbW9udGggYWdvIGRpZG4ndCBmb3JjZSB0aGUgV0cgaW50 byBBU04uMSwgYW5kIEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIGFueSBsaXN0IHRyYWZmaWMgYXNraW5nIGZvciB0aGF0 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suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6B313301B for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:25:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UWp6QIYiaGux for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 073B6127522 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE8520096; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B135880696; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:25:02 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Hannes Tschofenig cc: "suit\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <1600.1509982404@dooku.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 18:25:06 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hannes Tschofenig wrote: >> So my suggestion is that we should be focused on containers that >> support encryption, even if we choose not to provide a standard way = to >> distribute the decryption key(s). > I completely agree with you. We should focus on the requirements rath= er > than what is easy to do. good... > Funny enough, it turns out that we have already a standardized way to > distribute keys. We already have *A* method? :-) :-) I know of many standardized non-interactive ways in which to distribute keys to groups, (from SMIME asymmetric methods to kerberos method). Then there a= re online ways like MIKEY, and we can also use ACE mechanisms too now! I think that all of them require that the identities of the devices that wi= ll receive the keys be known to some entity/controller. If not in advance, then perhaps online. I think there are a very diverse set of situations and resulting requirements, which is why I'm surprised to learn that we have a solution that solves them all. (and... even the DVDCSS method has some merit in some scenarios) =2D-=20 Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAloB+n4ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWx/Qf+IHHfnluei9CxjB1biN/PO+9/roIaVqOGeBr2Qb/8Vt8jAvsZOi/sOydP FydQYaz2aFziJPm230AN73/4G4fN4SyU4hpzHbptw3RSUMj3W1fPpo5H/hbOk+4b th4jGXw+NslOH5KimGyCdmq7+BDHWSXe6WUyYRhrIL6L7MIN5/xqlAl+nxmYm1gu TFACsBrwOlZNUGruDap8q47ZZUoxT1JYioQcLi2xy2mLR0OgrWBN2OefSwFKWoo7 ebAesuN1zLn9i/jo1H0A1CoRUBH1fF5C4T0n/eq7IV8OZxNMbcPXYBfSF0i/PPyV 4c5/wgSX7eslKaZiaPVU37PRNHy/RA== =Jhs0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Nov 7 10:32:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D53133163 for ; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:32:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VI1PR0801MB2718; H:VI1PR0801MB2717.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b9161aec-1099-4638-2a81-08d5260de794 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Nov 2017 18:32:30.3220 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0801MB2718 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Thoughts on requirements and scope X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 18:32:37 -0000 I guess I should have said that we already have plenty of ways .... ;-) > Funny enough, it turns out that we have already a standardized way to > distribute keys. We already have *A* method? :-) :-) I know of many standardized non-interactive ways in which to distribute key= s to groups, (from SMIME asymmetric methods to kerberos method). Then there= are online ways like MIKEY, and we can also use ACE mechanisms too now! I think that all of them require that the identities of the devices that wi= ll receive the keys be known to some entity/controller. If not in advance, = then perhaps online. I think there are a very diverse set of situations and resulting requiremen= ts, which is why I'm surprised to learn that we have a solution that solves= them all. (and... even the DVDCSS method has some merit in some scenarios) -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D = IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <14707A2992EA4B4186B5B618DBB4FA3C@eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 04d53d81-9378-4783-6839-08d5262af4a0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Nov 2017 22:00:27.5240 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5PR08MB0616 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] draft-moran manifest thoughts X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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<2BC46EC0CE232148B555FC01A899D176@eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b0da17bf-ea91-4072-1af1-08d526352c25 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Nov 2017 23:13:35.7607 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5PR08MB0614 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 23:14:05 -0000 SSBmaW5kIGl0IHVzZWZ1bCB0byBkaXN0aW5ndWlzaCBiZXR3ZWVuIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHRoYXQg YSBkZXZpY2UgbmVlZHMgdG8ga25vdyBpbiBvcmRlciB0byBhdXRob3Jpc2UgYW4gdXBkYXRlLCBh 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1.0 Received: by 10.79.145.16 with HTTP; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 21:03:01 -0800 (PST) From: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 00:03:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Cc: Justin Cappos , Vladimir Diaz , Shikhar Sakhuja , Ariella C Feuchtwanger , Sebastien Awwad Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114aa3747aa55b055d719c04" Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 05:03:45 -0000 --001a114aa3747aa55b055d719c04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello everyone, I'm a Ph.D. graduate from NYU Tandon who worked on The Update Framework (TUF) , an open security standard for building compromise-resilient software repositories. The Linux Foundation recently named TUF as one of two new security projects hosted by its Cloud Native Computing Foundation. TUF is being used in production by LEAP , VMware, Flynn , Kolide , DigitalOcean , Cloudflare , CoreOS, and Docker . I write to this group because I think the design principles behind TUF may also be useful to secure software updates for IoT. The problem with two common off-the-shelf systems used to transport updates from repositories --- or servers used to host and distribute updates --- to devices is that they are not compromise-resilient . The first system, where repositories uses an encrypted transport mechanism such as SSL / TLS, protects devices from man-in-the-middle attacks. However, it does not protect devices when the repository itself has been compromised, because attackers can use the same online SSL / TLS key to sign and distribute malicious updates. This is true even if the private key is protected behind a Hardware Security Module (HSM), because the point is that attackers can use the HSM to sign malicious updates, even without access to the private key itself. In order to protect updates at rest, the second system uses an offline key, typically using GPG or RSA, to sign all updates. Unfortunately, this system usually suffers from problems with key revocation, or signing for new metadata about updates on-demand. TUF uses several design principles to protect users as much as possible from installing malicious updates, even if the repository used to serve those updates itself has been compromised: 1. *Separation of duties*: different types of metadata are signed by different roles using different keys, so that a key compromise does not necessarily impact the security of the whole system. 2. *Threshold signatures*: *m* out of *n* signatures may be required to sign an update, so that this minimum number of keys must be compromised in order to sign malware. 3. *Implicit and explicit key revocation*: there must be ways to revoke and replace keys, because they may be lost or compromised. 4. *Minimizing risk with offline keys*: metadata may be signed using signing keys kept off the repository, so that a repository compromise does not immediately result in signed malware. 5. *Selective delegation of trust*: different developers may be trusted to sign for only a subset of updates, so that a developer key compromise does not affect all devices. Delegations are also useful for distributing, revoking, and replacing public keys belonging to developers. 6. *Diversity of signing and hashing algorithms*: using multiple algorithms allows for surviving a compromise of one of them. Uptane is a variant of TUF which is especially designed for automobiles. It allows vehicle manufactures to customize which updates are installed on which vehicles without compromising security. It is being integrated by at least three automotive suppliers, including Advanced Telematic Systems , Lear Corporation, and OTAinfo . The research group at NYU and I feel that many of the design principles behind Uptane may be used in the IoT domain, as they appear to be share some of the same requirements. Despite offering high security, Uptane is flexible enough to accommodate a wide variety of deployment configurations. For example, Uptane is agnostic to the precise data encoding format used to describe metadata, so that ASN.1, CBOR, or XML may be used by different implementors. More information about TUF is available at: https://www.theupdateframework.com/ More information about Uptane, a variant of TUF for automobiles, is available at: https://uptane.github.io/ My thesis on TUF and Uptane is availabe at: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5-9MEQ0SQN2SjdmdUxueThQNmM/view?usp=sharing We hope to collaborate with you on designing a secure yet flexible software update standard for IoT. In particular, we are interested in learning about unique challenges in this domain that pertain to software updates. We look forward to hearing from you! With best regards, Trishank --001a114aa3747aa55b055d719c04 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everyone,

I'm a Ph= .D. graduate from NYU Tandon who worked on The Update Framework (TUF), an open security standard= for building compromise-resilient software repositories. The Linux Foundat= ion recently named TUF as one of= two new security projects hosted by its Cloud Native Computing Foundation.= TUF is being used in production by LEAP, VMware, Flynn, Kolide, DigitalOcean, Cloudflare, CoreOS, and Docker.
<= br>
I write to this group because I think the design principles b= ehind TUF may also be useful to secure software updates for IoT. The proble= m with two common off-the-shelf systems used to transport updates from repo= sitories --- or servers used to host and distribute updates --- to devices = is that they are not compromise-resilient.

The first system, where repositories uses an encrypted tra= nsport mechanism such as SSL / TLS, protects devices from man-in-the-middle= attacks. However, it does not protect devices when the repository itself h= as been compromised, because attackers can use the same online SSL / TLS ke= y to sign and distribute malicious updates. This is true even if the privat= e key is protected behind a Hardware Security Module (HSM), because the poi= nt is that attackers can use the HSM to sign malicious updates, even withou= t access to the private key itself.

In order to pr= otect updates at rest, the second system uses an offline key, typically usi= ng GPG or RSA, to sign all updates. Unfortunately, this system usually suff= ers from problems with key revocation, or signing for new metadata about up= dates on-demand.

TUF uses several design pr= inciples to protect users as much as possible from installing malicious= updates, even if the repository used to serve those updates itself has bee= n compromised:
  1. Separation of duties: different typ= es of metadata are signed by different roles using different keys, so that = a key compromise does not necessarily impact the security of the whole syst= em.
  2. Threshold signatures: m out of n signa= tures may be required to sign an update, so that this minimum number of key= s must be compromised in order to sign malware.
  3. Implicit and= explicit key revocation: there must be ways to revoke and replace keys= , because they may be lost or compromised.
  4. Minimizing risk w= ith offline keys: metadata may be signed using signing keys kept off th= e repository, so that a repository compromise does not immediately result i= n signed malware.
  5. Selective delegation of trust: differe= nt developers may be trusted to sign for only a subset of updates, so that = a developer key compromise does not affect all devices. Delegations are als= o useful for distributing, revoking, and replacing public keys belonging to= developers.
  6. Diversity of signing and hashing algorithms= : using multiple algorithms allows for surviving a compromise of one of the= m.
Uptane is = a variant of TUF which is especially designed for automobiles. It allows ve= hicle manufactures to customize which updates are installed on which vehicl= es without compromising security. It is being integrated by at least three = automotive suppliers, including Advanced Telematic S= ystems, Lear Corporation, and OTAinfo.

The research group= at NYU and I feel that many of the design principles behind Uptane may be = used in the IoT domain, as they appear to be share some of the same require= ments. Despite offering high security, Uptane is flexible enough to accommo= date a wide variety of deployment configurations. For example, Uptane is ag= nostic to the precise data encoding format used to describe metadata, so th= at ASN.1, CBOR, or XML may be used by different implementors.
More information about TUF is available at: https://www.theupdateframework.com/
<= div>
More information about Uptane, a variant of TUF for auto= mobiles, is available at: https://upt= ane.github.io/


W= e hope to collaborate with you on designing a secure yet flexible software = update standard for IoT. In particular, we are interested in learning about= unique challenges in this domain that pertain to software updates. We look= forward to hearing from you!

With best rega= rds,
Trishank
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PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A50279111A2C4707BD7705D3FE1DAA88armcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 18e35d1d-6c5b-4647-636b-08d526922d13 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Nov 2017 10:19:20.4712 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5PR0801MB2712 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 10:19:27 -0000 --_000_A50279111A2C4707BD7705D3FE1DAA88armcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7 Nov 2017, at 13:02, Henk Birkholz > wrote: I also have to voice to support the approach to "learn" from CMS and RFC 41= 08 - and not just refactoring the concepts/contents. Here are some thoughts on the differences between the manifest proposal and= RFC 4108: The initial submission of the [FUD] manifest format shares many properties = RFC4108, such as serial numbers (Device IDs), community identifiers (Device= Class IDs), and the Cryptographic Message Syntax. The current [Suit] manif= est format still shares most of these properties, but uses COSE instead of = CMS. * RFC4108 specifies that signing should occur after encryption. This ca= uses some problems: * The entire package must be downloaded, then verified, then decrypt= ed in-place, then installed, requiring double the flash cycles as decryptin= g in-RAM, then verifying after decryption. * The installed binary cannot have its signature verified. * It is preferable to include multiple hashes of the firmware packag= e in different states, such as: * Ciphertext * Plaintext * Installed * (Others, dependent on firmware format) * RFC4108 defines a wrapped firmware object, whereas the [Suit] draft i= ntentionally separates the metadata from the firmware. This has several ben= efits: * Signature verification can be done early, to ensure that the signe= r(s) has the correct rights (in aggregate, for multiple signers) to perform= installation * Manifests are small and can be distributed over a pre-established = link, even if it is expensive. The manifest can contain discovery hints for= firmware acquisition, (e.g. a ranked list of URIs to search) which allows = distribution over low-cost links. * An example here is distribution in mesh networks. The manifest = is small enough to be sent to every node, via LwM2M, for example, and the m= anifest can contain a URI/directive that instructs the device to listen for= a broadcast firmware, which the whole of the mesh will receive. Only devic= es that have been primed with a manifest will store the firmware. The rest = will just participate in mesh broadcast. * Storage is simpler. The same firmware can be distributed in multip= le batches to different sets of devices without uploading multiple copies o= f the firmware. Because it is merely linked by the manifest, rather than co= ntained within a signed object, many manifests can refer to the same firmwa= re. * Key distribution is not well-specified in RFC4108. The only specified= option uses the EnvelopedData mechanism from RFC5652, and comes with drawb= acks where broadcast (physical, or logical, i.e. untrusted CDNs) distributi= on is used. * The [Suit] draft no longer specifies key table distribution. Some = of this can be handled within COSE, however there is some specification wor= k to be done on how encrypted payloads can be made broadcast-friendly. I ex= pect either tables of encrypted COSE Keys, or tables of key-wrapped bare ke= ys to play a role. * Firmware component naming is conflated with versioning. This is probl= ematic for rollback protection, since the version number may require text p= rocessing. Preferred firmware package names are a combination of the firmware package object identifier and a version number. * A fat boot loader is mandated by the standard, which makes unbrickabl= e updates of network stacks problematic: The bootstrap loader MUST have access to a physical interface and any related driver or protocol software necessary to obtain a firmware package. Best Regards, Brendan Moran IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_A50279111A2C4707BD7705D3FE1DAA88armcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 7 Nov 2017, at 13:02, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.= de> wrote:

I also have to voice to support the approach to "learn" from CMS = and RFC 4108 - and not just refactoring the concepts/contents.

Here are some thoughts on the differences between the manif= est proposal and RFC 4108:

The initial submission of the [FUD] manifest format shares = many properties RFC4108, such as serial numbers (Device IDs), community ide= ntifiers (Device Class IDs), and the Cryptographic Message Syntax. The curr= ent [Suit] manifest format still shares most of these properties, but uses COSE instead of CMS.
  • RFC4108 specifies that signing should occur after encry= ption. This causes some problems:
    • The entire package must be downloaded, then verified, then d= ecrypted in-place, then installed, requiring double the flash cycles as dec= rypting in-RAM, then verifying after decryption.
    • The ins= talled binary cannot have its signature verified.
    • It is = preferable to include multiple hashes of the firmware package in different = states, such as:
      • Ciphertext
      • Plaintext
      • I= nstalled
      • (Others, dependent on firmware format)
    • RFC4108 defines a wrapped firmware object, whereas the = [Suit] draft intentionally separates the metadata from the firmware. This h= as several benefits:
      • Signature verification can be done early, to ensure that the= signer(s) has the correct rights (in aggregate, for multiple signers) to p= erform installation 
      • Manifests are small and can be= distributed over a pre-established link, even if it is expensive. The mani= fest can contain discovery hints for firmware acquisition, (e.g. a ranked l= ist of URIs to search) which allows distribution over low-cost links. 
        • An example here is distribution in mesh networks. The manife= st is small enough to be sent to every node, via LwM2M, for example, and th= e manifest can contain a URI/directive that instructs the device to listen = for a broadcast firmware, which the whole of the mesh will receive. Only devices that have been primed with a = manifest will store the firmware. The rest will just participate in mesh br= oadcast.
      • Storage is simpler. The same firmware can be distribute= d in multiple batches to different sets of devices without uploading multip= le copies of the firmware. Because it is merely linked by the manifest, rat= her than contained within a signed object, many manifests can refer to the same firmware.
    • Key distribution is not well-specified in RFC4108. The = only specified option uses the EnvelopedData mechanism from RFC5652, and co= mes with drawbacks where broadcast (physical, or logical, i.e. untrusted CD= Ns) distribution is used.
      • The [Suit] draft no longer specifies key table distribution.= Some of this can be handled within COSE, however there is some specificati= on work to be done on how encrypted payloads can be made broadcast-friendly= . I expect either tables of encrypted COSE Keys, or tables of key-wrapped bare keys to play a role.
      • Firmware component naming is conflated with versioning.= This is problematic for rollback protection, since the version number may = require text processing.
      

      

         Preferred firmware package names=
 are a combination of the firmware
   package object identifier and a version number. 
      

      

      

      





    

  • A fat boot loader is mandated by the standard, which makes u=
nbrickable updates of network stacks problematic:








   The bootstrap loader MUST have a=
ccess to a physical interface and any
   related driver or protocol software necessary to obtain a firmware
   package. 

















Best Regards,


Brendan Moran

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.



--_000_A50279111A2C4707BD7705D3FE1DAA88armcom_--


From rod@proteancode.com  Wed Nov  8 03:10:22 2017
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The guys from ARM have encouraged me to join this list.


Last year, I led a team that built an implementation of RFC 4108,

following NCSC guidance and technical specifications on choice of

crypto algorithms, key sizes and so on.


A short, and rather lacking-in-detail, presentation about our work

is here: 
http://www.his-2017.co.uk/session/secure-updates-for-embedded-systems.


I'll be happy to report on our experiences where possible.

  All the best,

  Rod Chapman, Protean Code Limited





--------------3EBD5DE9B82026A7964AA760
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The guys from ARM have encouraged me to join this
        list.

    


      

    
Last year, I led a team that built an implementation
        of RFC 4108,

    
following NCSC guidance and technical specifications
        on choice of

    
crypto algorithms, key sizes and so on.

      

    


      

    
A short, and rather lacking-in-detail,
        presentation about our work

    
is here:
        http://www.his-2017.co.uk/session/secure-updates-for-embedded-systems.

    


      

    
I'll be happy to report on our experiences where
        possible.

    
 All the best,

    
 Rod Chapman, Protean Code Limited

    


      

    


      

    


      

  


--------------3EBD5DE9B82026A7964AA760--


From nobody Wed Nov  8 07:26:36 2017
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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
cc: suit@ietf.org, Shikhar Sakhuja , Justin Cappos , Sebastien Awwad , Vladimir Diaz , Ariella C Feuchtwanger 
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Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy  wrote:
    > I'm a Ph.D. graduate from NYU Tandon who worked on The Update Framewo=
rk
    > (TUF), an open security standard for building compromise-resilient

Awesome, so happy to have you join the discussion!

    > Uptane is a variant of TUF which is especially designed for
    > automobiles. It allows vehicle manufactures to customize which updates
    > are installed on which vehicles without compromising security. It is
    > being integrated by at least three automotive suppliers, including
    > Advanced Telematic Systems, Lear Corporation, and OTAinfo.

Can you tell us a bit about how uptane indicates which vehicles should apply
the update?  Can it get down to a single vehicle?  If so, are there any
privacy protections involved?

    > The research group at NYU and I feel that many of the design principl=
es
    > behind Uptane may be used in the IoT domain, as they appear to be sha=
re
    > some of the same requirements. Despite offering high security, Uptane
    > is flexible enough to accommodate a wide variety of deployment
    > configurations. For example, Uptane is agnostic to the precise data
    > encoding format used to describe metadata, so that ASN.1, CBOR, or XML
    > may be used by different implementors.

Very interesting.

I'm reading your github source code.

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From nobody Fri Nov 10 06:49:23 2017
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To: suit@ietf.org
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The proposed architectures that we have either assume a relatively capable
bootloader, or the ability to double buffer images.

One of the advantages of the double buffering is that the firmware update
code itself can easily be updated.
Updating a bootloader image may be significantly more risky, and so I imagine
that it might rarely or never occur in a device's lifetime.

So my question is: how much concern should we put into quantum resistant
signature algorithms?  Is it worth the risk of being on the bleeding edge
here with the hope of winning?  Should we perhaps plan on our manifests (and
images) being signed more than once by the same entity using different
algorithms?


--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Brendan Moran 
To: Michael Richardson 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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To: , Brendan Moran 
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From: Henk Birkholz 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Threat Model and User Stories for draft-moran-suit-manifest-00
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+1 to STRIDE in respect to achievable threat models=2E Please consider that=
 additional use cases e=2Eg from Richard & Caraten might have to be taken i=
nto account, resulting in merged or added use cases (or usage scenarios, so=
me of the use cases look more like those)=2E

In any case, your approach is commendable and should be applied more rigor=
ously in many cases, I think=2E

Alas, it is a very resource consuming  process, but I will try my best to =
provide comments and feedback after =2Esg, because your approach deserves b=
oth attention and support=2E

Thank you for taking on the effort, Brendon=2E You are addressing an impor=
tant prerequisite=2E

Hochachtungsvoll,

Henk

On November 10, 2017 11:27:09 PM GMT+08:00, Brendan Moran  wrote:
>The manifest format as described in draft-moran-suit-manifest-00 was
>designed using a threat model and a set of User stories=2E From the
>threat model, we extracted security requirements that mitigate the
>threats and placed fields in the manifest that enable implementation of
>the security requirements=2E From the user stories, we extracted
>usability requirements that enable those user stories, and placed
>fields in the manifest that implement those usability requirements=2E
>
>Note that not all user stories are covered here=2E This is intentional,
>since there are a great many possible user stories, only sufficient
>user stories to cover the fields in the Manifest have been included=2E
>
>Best Regards,
>Brendan Moran
>
>Threat Model
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>I will describe the threats we have considered, the security
>requirements that are derived from those threats and the fields that
>permit implementation of the security requirements=2E I will address the
>threats in the order that the relevant fields appear=2E
>
>This model uses the S=2ET=2ER=2EI=2ED=2EE=2E approach=2E Each threat is c=
lassified
>according to:
>* Spoofing Identity
>* Tampering with data
>* Repudiation
>* Information disclosure
>* Denial of service
>* Elevation of privilege
>See here for more information on The STRIDE Threat Model:
>https://msdn=2Emicrosoft=2Ecom/en-us/library/ee823878(v=3Dcs=2E20)=2Easpx
>
>N=2EB=2E In firmware update, it is common for an attack to expose all
>classes of threat=2E
>
>Threat Descriptions
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Threat MFT1: Old Firmware
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: Escalation of Privilege
>
>An attacker sends an old, but valid manifest to a device with an old,
>but valid payload=2E If there is a known vulnerability in the payload,
>this can allow an attacker to gain complete control of a device=2E
>
>Threat Escalation: If the attacker is able to exploit the known
>vulnerability, then this threat can be escalated to ALL TYPES
>
>Threat MFT2: Mismatched Firmware
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: Denial of Service
>
>An attacker sends valid firmware, for the wrong type of device, signed
>by an actor with firmware installation authority on both types of
>device=2E The firmware is trusted by the device because it is signed by
>an actor with firmware installation authority=2E This could have
>wide-ranging consequences=2E For devices that are similar, it could cause
>minor breakage, or expose security vulnerabilities=2E For devices that
>are very different, it is likely to render devices inoperable=2E
>
>Threat MFT3: Offline device + Old Firmware
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: Escalation of Privilege
>
>An attacker targets a device that has been offline for a long time and
>runs an old firmware version=2E The attacker sends an old, but valid
>manifest to a device with an old, but valid payload=2E The
>attacker-provided firmware is newer than the installed one but older
>than the most recently available firmware=2E If there is a known
>vulnerability in the payload, this can allow an attacker to gain
>complete control of a device=2E Because the device has been offline for a
>long time, it is unaware of any new updates=2E As such it will treat the
>old manifest as the most current=2E
>
>Threat Escalation: If the attacker is able to exploit the known
>vulnerability, then this threat can be escalated to ALL TYPES
>
>Threat MFT4: The target device misinterprets the type of payload=2E
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: Denial of Service
>
>If a device misinterprets the payload type, it may cause a device to
>install a payload incorrectly=2E An incorrectly installed payload would
>likely cause the device to stop functioning=2E
>
>Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to misinterpret
>the received code and could gain an Escalation of Privilege and
>potentially expand this to all types of threat=2E
>
>Threat MFT5: The target device installs the payload to the wrong
>location
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: Denial of Service
>
>If a device installs code or data to the wrong part of the device, then
>it is likely to break=2E A firmware installed as configuration or a
>network stack installed as an application could cause a device to stop
>functioning=2E
>
>Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to misinterpret
>the received code and could gain an Escalation of Privilege and
>potentially expand this to all types of threat=2E
>
>Threat MFT6: Redirection
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: Denial of Service
>
>If a device does not know where to obtain the payload for an update, it
>may be redirected to an attacker=E2=80=99s server=2E This would allow an =
attacker
>to provide broken payloads to devices without needing to construct a
>Man in the Middle=2E
>
>Threat MFT7: Payload Verification on Boot
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: All Types
>
>An attacker replaces a newly downloaded firmware after a device
>finishes verifying a manifest=2E This could cause the device to execute
>the attacker=E2=80=99s code=2E This attack likely requires physical acces=
s to the
>device, however it is possible that it could be carried out when
>combined with another threat that allows remote execution=2E
>
>Threat MFT8: Unauthenticated Updates
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: All Types
>
>If an attacker can install their firmware on a device, by manipulating
>either payload or metadata, then they have complete control of the
>device=2E
>
>Threat MFT9: Unexpected Precursor images
>-----------------------------------
>Classification: Denial of Service
>
>An attacker sends a valid, current manifest to a device that has an
>unexpected precursor image=2E If a payload format requires a precursor
>image (for example, delta updates) and that precursor image is not
>available on the target device, it could cause the update to break=2E
>
>Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to install a
>payload against the wrong precursor image could gain an Escalation of
>Privilege and potentially expand this to all types of threat=2E
>
>
>Security Requirements
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>The security requirements here are a set of policies that mitigate the
>threats described in the previous section
>
>Security Requirement MFSR1: monotonic sequence numbers
>-----------------------------------
>Only an actor with firmware installation authority is permitted to
>decide when device firmware can be installed=2E To enforce this rule,
>Manifests MUST contain a monotonic sequence number=2E Manifests MAY use
>UTC epoch timestamps to coordinate monotonic sequence numbers across
>many actors in many locations=2E Devices MUST reject manifests with
>sequence numbers smaller than any onboard sequence number=2E
>
>N=2EB=2E This is not a firmware version=2E It is a manifest sequence numb=
er=2E
>A firmware version may be rolled back by creating a new manifest for
>the old firmware version with a later sequence number=2E
>
>Mitigates: Threat MFT1
>
>Security Requirement MFSR2: Vendor, device-type identifiers
>-----------------------------------
>Devices MUST only apply firmware that is intended for them=2E Devices
>MUST know with fine granularity that a given update applies to their
>vendor, model, hardware revision, software revision=2E Human-readable
>identifiers are often error-prone in this regard, so Unique-IDs SHOULD
>be used=2E
>
>Mitigates: Threat MFT2
>
>Security Requirement MFSR3: Best-Before timestamps
>-----------------------------------
>Firmware MAY expire after a given time=2E Devices MAY provide a secure
>clock (local or remote)=2E If a secure clock is provided and the Firmware
>Manifest has a best-before timestamp, the device MUST reject the
>manifest if current time is larger than the best-before time=2E
>
>Mitigates: Threat MFT3
>
>Security Requirement MFSR4: Signed Payload Descriptor
>-----------------------------------
>All descriptive information about the payload MUST be signed=2E This MUST
>include:
>* The location to store the payload
>* The payload digest, in each state of installation (encrypted,
>plaintext, installed, etc=2E)
>* The payload size
>* The payload format
>* Where to obtain the payload
>* All instructions or parameters for applying the payload
>* Any rules that identify whether or not the payload can be used on
>this device
>
>Mitigates: Threats MFT5, MFT6, MFT7, MFT9
>
>Security Requirement MFSR5: Provable authenticity
>-----------------------------------
>The authenticity of an update must be provable, with sufficient levels
>of entropy to remain secure for the lifetime of the device=2E Typically,
>this means that updates must be signed=2E Other proof mechanisms are
>acceptable, such as MACs, or Authenticated Encryption, or AEAD
>algorithms=2E Because the manifest contains information about how to
>install the update, the manifest's authenticity must be provable=2E To
>reduce the overhead required for validation, the manifest contains the
>digest of the payload, rather than another signature=2E This does not
>change the provability of the payload=2E The authenticity of the manifest
>is provable with a signature, the authenticity of the payload digest is
>provable with the manifest, and the authenticity of the payload is
>provable with the payload digest=2E
>
>Mitigates: Threat MFT8
>
>User Stories
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>User stories provide expected use-cases=2E These are used to feed into
>usability requirements=2E
>
>Use Case MFUC1: Installation Instructions
>-----------------------------------
>As an OEM for IoT devices, I want to provide my devices with additional
>installation instructions so that I can keep process detail out of my
>payload data=2E
>
>Some installation instructions might be:
>* Specify a package handler
>* Use a table of hashes to ensure that each block of the payload is
>validate before writing=2E
>* Run post-processing script after the update is installed
>* Do not report progress
>* Pre-cache the update, but do not install
>* Install the pre-cached update matching this manifest
>* Install this update immediately, overriding any long-running tasks=2E
>
>
>Use Case MFUC2: Operator Infrastructure
>-----------------------------------
>As an Operator of IoT devices, I would like to tell my devices to look
>at my own infrastructure for payloads so that I can manage the traffic
>generated by firmware updates on my network and my peers=E2=80=99 network=
s=2E
>
>Use Case MFUC3: Modular Update
>-----------------------------------
>As an OEM of IoT devices, I want to divide my firmware into frequently
>updated and infrequently updated components, so that I can reduce the
>size of updates and make different parties responsible for different
>components=2E
>
>Use Case MFUC4: Multiple Authorisations
>-----------------------------------
>As an Operator, I want to ensure the quality of a firmware update
>before installing it, so that I can ensure a high standard of
>reliability on my network=2E The OEM may restrict my ability to create
>firmware, so I cannot be the only authority on the device=2E
>
>Use Case MFUC5: Multiple Payload Formats
>-----------------------------------
>As a OEM or Operator of devices, I want to be able to send multiple
>payload formats to suit the needs of my update, so that I can optimise
>the bandwidth used by my devices=2E
>
>
>Usability Requirements
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>The following usability requirements satisfy the user stories listed
>above=2E
>
>Usability Requirement MFUR1:
>It must be possible to write additional installation instructions into
>the manifest=2E
>
>Satisfies Use-Case MFUC1
>
>Usability Requirement MFUR2:
>-----------------------------------
>It must be possible to redirect payload fetches=2E This applies where two
>manifests are used in conjunction=2E For example, an OEM manifest
>specifies a payload and signs it, and provides a URI for that payload=2E
>An Operator creates a second manifest, with a dependency on the first=2E
>They use this second manifest to override the URIs provided by the OEM,
>directing them into their own infrastructure instead=2E
>
>Satisfies Use-Case MFUC2
>
>Usability Requirement MFUR3:
>-----------------------------------
>It MUST be possible to link multiple manifests together so that a
>multi-component update can be described=2E This allows multiple parties
>with different permissions to collaborate in creating a single update
>for the IoT device, across multiple components=2E
>
>Satisfies Use-Case MFUC2, MFUC3
>
>Usability Requirement MFUR4:
>-----------------------------------
>It MUST be possible to sign a manifest multiple times so that
>signatures from multiple parties with different permissions can be
>required in order to authorise installation of a manifest=2E
>
>Satisfies Use-Case MFUC4
>
>Usability Requirement MFUR5:
>-----------------------------------
>The manifest format MUST accommodate any payload format that an
>operator or OEM wishes to use=2E Some examples of payload format would
>be:
>* Binary
>* Elf
>* Differential
>* Compressed
>* Packed configuration
>
>Satisfies Use-Case MFUC5
>
>
>Manifest Fields:
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>Each manifest field is anchored in a security requirement or a
>usability requirement=2E The manifest fields are described below and
>justified by their requirements=2E
>
>Manifest Field: Timestamp
>-----------------------------------
>A monotonic sequence number, implemented as an integer Timestamp=2E
>
>Implements: Security Requirement MFSR1=2E
>
>Manifest Field: Vendor ID condition
>-----------------------------------
>Vendor IDs MUST be unique=2E This is to prevent similarly, or identically
>named entities from different geographic regions from colliding in
>their customer=E2=80=99s infrastructure=2E Recommended practice is to use=
 type 5
>UUIDs with the vendor=E2=80=99s domain name and the UUID DNS prefix=2E Ot=
her
>options include type 1 and type 4 UUIDs=2E
>
>Implements: Security Requirement MFSR2, MFSR4=2E
>
>Manifest Field: Class ID condition
>-----------------------------------
>Class Identifiers MUST be unique within a Vendor ID=2E This is to prevent
>similarly, or identically named devices colliding in their customer=E2=80=
=99s
>infrastructure=2E Recommended practice is to use type 5 UUIDs with the
>model, hardware revision, etc=2E and use the Vendor ID as the UUID
>prefix=2E Other options include type 1 and type 4 UUIDs=2E A device =E2=
=80=9CClass=E2=80=9D
>is defined as any device that can run the same firmware without
>modification=2E Classes MAY be implemented in a more granular way=2E
>Classes MUST NOT be implemented in a less granular way=2E Class ID can
>encompass model name, hardware revision, software revision=2E Devices MAY
>have multiple Class IDs=2E
>
>Implements: Security Requirement MFSR2, MFSR4=2E
>
>Manifest Field: Precursor Image Digest Condition
>-----------------------------------
>When a precursor image is required by the payload format, a precursor
>image digest condition MUST be present in the conditions list=2E
>
>Implements: Security Requirement MFSR4
>
>Manifest Field: Best-Before timestamp
>-----------------------------------
>This field tells a device the last application time=2E This is only
>usable in conjunction with a secure clock=2E
>
>Implements Security Requirement MFSR3
>
>Manifest Field: Payload Format
>-----------------------------------
>The format of the payload must be indicated to devices is in an
>unambiguous way=2E This field provides a mechanism to describe the
>payload format, within the signed metadata=2E
>
>Implements Security Requirement MFSR4, Usability Requirement MFUR5
>
>Manifest Field: Storage Location
>-----------------------------------
>This field tells the device which component is being updated=2E The
>device can use this to establish which permissions are necessary and
>the physical location to use=2E
>
>Implements Security Requirement MFSR4
>
>Manifest Field: URIs
>-----------------------------------
>This field is a list of weighted URIs that the device uses to select
>where to obtain a payload=2E
>
>Implements Security Requirement MFSR4
>
>Manifest Field: digests
>-----------------------------------
>This field is a map of digests, each for a separate stage of
>installation=2E This allows the target device to ensure authenticity of
>the payload at every step of installation=2E
>
>Implements Security Requirement MFSR4
>
>Manifest Field: Size
>-----------------------------------
>The size of the payload in bytes=2E
>
>Implements Security Requirement MFSR4
>
>Manifest Field: Signature
>-----------------------------------
>This is not strictly a manifest field=2E Instead, the manifest is wrapped
>by a standardised signature container, such as a COSE or CMS signature
>object=2E The signature container MUST support multiple signatures=2E
>
>Implements Security Requirement MFSR5, MFUR4
>
>Manifest Field: Directives
>-----------------------------------
>A list of instructions that the device should execute, in order, when
>installing the payload=2E
>
>Implements Usability Requirement MFUR1
>
>Manifest Field: Aliases
>-----------------------------------
>A list of URI/Digest pairs=2E A device should build an alias table while
>paring a manifest tree and treat any aliases as top-ranked URIs for the
>corresponding digest=2E
>
>Implements Usability Requirement MFUR2
>
>Manifest Field: Dependencies
>-----------------------------------
>A list of URI/Digest pairs that refer to other manifests by digest=2E The
>manifests that are linked in this way must be acquired and installed
>simultaneously in order to form a complete update=2E
>
>Implements Usability Requirement MFUR3
>
>
>IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>confidential and may also be privileged=2E If you are not the intended
>recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
>contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy
>the information in any medium=2E Thank you=2E

--=20
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------XOP3XW6MU6GYAXVJJOVY9V8LRH2L9D
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




+1 to STRIDE in respect to =
achievable threat models=2E Please consider that additional use cases e=2Eg=
 from Richard & Caraten might have to be taken into account, resulting =
in merged or added use cases (or usage scenarios, some of the use cases loo=
k more like those)=2E



In any case, your approach is commendable and should be applied more rigor=
ously in many cases, I think=2E



Alas, it is a very resource consuming  process, but I will try my best to =
provide comments and feedback after =2Esg, because your approach deserves b=
oth attention and support=2E



Thank you for taking on the effort, Brendon=2E You are addressing an impor=
tant prerequisite=2E



Hochachtungsvoll,



Henk

On November 10, 2017 11:27:09 PM GM=
T+08:00, Brendan Moran <Brendan=2EMoran@arm=2Ecom> wrote:




The manifest format as described in draft-moran-suit-manifest-00 was desig=
ned using a threat model and a set of User stories=2E From the threat model=
, we extracted security requirements that mitigate the threats and placed f=
ields in the manifest that enable implementation
 of the security requirements=2E From the user stories, we extracted =
usability requirements that enable those user stories, and placed fields in=
 the manifest that implement those usability requirements=2E
<=
/p>









Note that not all user stories are covered here=2E This is intentional, si=
nce there are a great many possible user stories, only sufficient user stor=
ies to cover the fields in the Manifest have been included=2E









Best Regards,



Brendan Moran




 



Threat Model



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


I will describe the threats we=
 have considered, the security requirements that are derived from those thr=
eats and the fields that permit implementation of the security requirements=
=2E I will address the threats in the order
 that the relevant fields appear=2E








 



This model uses the S=2ET=2ER=2EI=2ED=2EE=2E approach=2E Each threat is cl=
assified according to:



* Spoofing Identity



* Tampering with data



* Repudiation



* Information disclosure



* Denial of service



* Elevation of privilege



See here for more information on The STRIDE Threat Model: https://msdn=2Emicrosoft=2Ecom/en-us/library/=
ee823878(v=3Dcs=2E20)=2Easpx




 



N=2EB=2E In firmware update, it is common for an attack to expose all clas=
ses of threat=2E




 




Threat Descriptions



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


 



Threat MFT1: Old Firmware



-----------------------------------



Classification: Escalation of Privilege




 



An attacker sends an old, but valid manifest to a device with an old, but =
valid payload=2E If there is a known vulnerability in the payload, this can=
 allow an attacker to gain complete control of a device=2E




 



Threat Escalation: If the attacker is able to exploit the known vulnerabil=
ity, then this threat can be escalated to ALL TYPES




 



Threat MFT2: Mismatched Firmware



-----------------------------------



Classification: Denial of Service




 



An attacker sends valid firmware, for the wrong type of device, signed by =
an actor with firmware installation authority on both types of device=2E Th=
e firmware is trusted by the device because it is signed by an actor with f=
irmware installation authority=2E This
 could have wide-ranging consequences=2E For devices that are similar, it =
could cause minor breakage, or expose security vulnerabilities=2E For devic=
es that are very different, it is likely to render devices inoperable=2E




 



Threat MFT3: Offline device + Old Firmware



-----------------------------------



Classification: Escalation of Privilege








An attacker targets a device that has been offline for a long =
time and runs an old firmware version=2E The attacker
 sends an old, but valid manifest to a device with an old, but valid =
payload=2E The attacker-provided firmware is newer than the installed one b=
ut older than the most recently available firmware=2E If there is a known v=
ulnerability in the payload, this can allow
 an attacker to gain complete control of a device=2E Because the device ha=
s been offline for a long time, it is unaware of any new updates=2E As such=
 it will treat the old manifest as the most current=2E









Threat Escalation: If the attacker is able to exploit the known vulnerabil=
ity, then this threat can be escalated to ALL TYPES




 



Threat MFT4: The target device misinterprets the type of payload=2E



-----------------------------------



Classification: Denial of Service




 



If a device misinterprets the payload type, it may cause a device to insta=
ll a payload incorrectly=2E An incorrectly installed payload would likely c=
ause the device to stop functioning=2E








Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to misi=
nterpret the received code and could gain an Escalation
 of Privilege and potentially expand this to all types of threat=2E










Threat MFT5: The target device installs the payload to the wrong location<=
p class=3D"">



-----------------------------------



Classification: Denial of Service




 



If a device installs code or data to the wrong part of the device, then it=
 is likely to break=2E A firmware installed as configuration or a network s=
tack installed as an application could cause a device to stop functioning=
=2E








Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to misi=
nterpret the received code and could gain an Escalation
 of Privilege and potentially expand this to all types of threat=2E










Threat MFT6: Redirection




---=
--------------------------------


Classification=
: Denial of Service










 



If a device does not know where to obtain the payload for an update, it ma=
y be redirected to an attacker’s server=2E This would allow an attack=
er to provide broken payloads to devices without needing to construct a Man=
 in the Middle=2E




 



Threat MFT7: Payload Verification on Boot



-----------------------------------



Classification: All Types




 



An attacker replaces a newly downloaded firmware after a device finishes v=
erifying a manifest=2E This could cause the device to execute the attacker&=
rsquo;s code=2E This attack likely requires physical access to the device, =
however it is possible that it could be carried
 out when combined with another threat that allows remote execution=2E








Threat MFT8: Unauthenticated Updates





-----------------------------------



Classification: All Types









If an attacker can install their firmware on a device, by manipulating eit=
her payload or metadata, then they have complete control of the device=2E








Threat MFT9: Unexpected Precursor images





-----------------------------------



Classification: Denial of Service








An at=
tacker sends a valid, current manifest to a device that has an unexpected p=
recursor image=2E If a payload format requires a
 precursor image (for example, delta updates) and that precursor image is =
not available on the target device, it could cause the update to break=2E







Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to install a payloa=
d against the wrong precursor image could gain
 an Escalation of Privilege and potentially expand this to all types of&nb=
sp;threat=2E



















Security Requirements




=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


The security requirements here are a set of policies that =
mitigate the threats described in the previous section












Security Requirement MFSR1: monotonic sequence numbers 
=




------------------------------=
-----


Only an actor with firmware =
installation authority is permitted to decide when device firmware can be i=
nstalled=2E To enforce this rule, Manifests
 MUST contain a monotonic sequence number=2E Manifests MAY use UTC e=
poch timestamps
 to coordinate monotonic sequence numbers across many actors in many locat=
ions=2E Devices MUST reject manifests with sequence numbers smaller than an=
y onboard sequence number=2E








 



N=2EB=2E This is not a firmware version=2E It is a manifest sequence numbe=
r=2E A firmware version may be rolled back by creating a new manifest for t=
he old firmware version with a later sequence number=2E




 



Mitigates: Threat MFT1




 



Security Requirement MFSR2: Vendor, device-type identifiers 



-----------------------------------



Devices MUST only apply firmwa=
re that is intended for them=2E Devices MUST know with fine granularity tha=
t a given update applies to their vendor, model, hardware revision, softwar=
e revision=2E Human-readable identifiers
 are often error-prone in this regard, so Unique-IDs SHOULD be used=2E








 



Mitigates: Threat MFT2




 



Security Requirement MFSR3: Best-Before timestamps





-----------------------------------


Firmware MAY expire after a given time=2E Devices MAY provide =
a secure clock (local or remote)=2E If a secure clock
 is provided and the Firmware Manifest has a best-before timestamp, t=
he device MUST reject the manifest if current time is larger than the =
best-before time=2E

 

Mitigates: Threat MFT3










Security Requirement MFSR4: Signed Payload Descriptor



-----------------------------------



All descriptive information ab=
out the payload MUST be signed=2E This MUST include:







* The location to store the payload



* The payload digest, in each state of installation (encrypted, plaintext,=
 installed, etc=2E)



* The payload size



* The payload format



* Where to obtain the payload



* All instructions or parameters for applying the payload



* Any rules that identify whether or not the payload can be used on this d=
evice




 



Mitigates: Threats MFT5, MFT6, MFT7, 
MFT9









Security Requirement MFSR5: Provable authenticity





-----------------------------------


The authenticity of an u=
pdate must be provable, with sufficient levels of entropy to remain secure =
for the lifetime of the device=2E Typically, this
 means that updates must be signed=2E Other proof mechanisms are acceptabl=
e, such as MACs, or Authenticated Encryption, or AEAD algorithms=2E Because=
 the manifest contains information about how to install the update, th=
e manifest's authenticity must be provable=2E
 To reduce the overhead required for validation, the manifest contains the=
 digest of the payload, rather than another signature=2E This does not=
 change the provability of the payload=2E The authenticity of the manifest =
is provable with a signature, the authenticity
 of the payload digest is provable with the manifest, and the authent=
icity of the payload is provable with the payload digest=2E






Mitigates: Threat MFT8






 







User Stories



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


User stories provide expected use-cases=2E These are used to feed into usa=
bility requirements=2E




 



Use Case MFUC1: Installation Instructions



-----------------------------------



As an OEM for IoT devices, I want to provide my devices with additional in=
stallation instructions so that I can keep process detail out of my payload=
 data=2E




 



Some installation instructions might be:



* Specify a package handler



* Use a table of hashes to ensure that each block of the payload is valida=
te before writing=2E



* Run post-processing script after the update is installed



* Do not report progress



* Pre-cache the update, but do not install



* Install the pre-cached update matching this manifest



* Install this update immediately, overriding any long-running tasks=2E




 




 



Use Case MFUC2: Operator Infrastructure



-----------------------------------



As an Operator of IoT devices, I would like to tell my devices to look at =
my own infrastructure for payloads so that I can manage the traffic generat=
ed by firmware updates on my network and my peers’ networks=2E




 



Use Case MFUC3: Modular Update



-----------------------------------



As an OEM of IoT devices, I want to divide my firmware into frequently upd=
ated and infrequently updated components, so that I can reduce the size of =
updates and make different parties responsible for different components=2E<=
p class=3D"">











Use Case MFUC4: Multiple Authorisations



-----------------------------------




As an Operator, I want to ensure the quality of a firmware u=
pdate before installing it, so that I can ensure a high standard of reliabi=
lity on my network=2E The OEM may restrict my ability to create firmware, s=
o I cannot be the only authority on
 the device=2E











Use Case MFUC5: Multiple Payload Formats



-----------------------------------




As a OEM or Operator of devices, I want to be able to send m=
ultiple payload formats to suit the needs of my update, so that I can optim=
ise the bandwidth used by my devices=2E









 



Usability Requirements



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


The following usability requirements satisfy the user stories listed above=
=2E




 



Usability Requirement MFUR1:



It must be possible to write additional installation instructions into the=
 manifest=2E




 



Satisfies Use-Case MFUC1




 



Usability Requirement MFUR2:



-----------------------------------



It must be possible to redirect payload fetches=2E This applies where two =
manifests are used in conjunction=2E For example, an OEM manifest specifies=
 a payload and signs it, and provides a URI for that payload=2E An Operator=
 creates a second manifest, with a dependency
 on the first=2E They use this second manifest to override the URIs provid=
ed by the OEM, directing them into their own infrastructure instead=2E




 



Satisfies Use-Case MFUC2




 



Usability Requirement MFUR3:



-----------------------------------



It MUST be possible to link multiple manifests together so that a multi-co=
mponent update can be described=2E This allows multiple parties with differ=
ent permissions to collaborate in creating a single update for the IoT devi=
ce, across multiple components=2E




 



Satisfies Use-Case MFUC2, MFUC3




 



Usability Requirement MFUR4:




---=
--------------------------------


It MUST be possible to sign a manifest multiple times so t=
hat signatures from multiple parties with different permissions can be requ=
ired in order to authorise installation of a manifest=2E







Satisfies Use-Case MFUC4







Usa=
bility Requirement MFUR5:




---=
--------------------------------




The manifest format MUST accommodate any payload format th=
at an operator or OEM wishes to use=2E Some examples of payload format would be: 


* Binary


* Elf


* Differential


* Compressed


* P=
acked configuration







Satisfies Use-=
Case MFUC5















Manifest Fields:



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


Each manifest field is anchored in a security requirement or a usability r=
equirement=2E The manifest fields are described below and justified by thei=
r requirements=2E




 



Manifest Field: Timestamp



-----------------------------------



A monotonic sequence number, implemented as an integer Timestamp=2E
=





 



Implements: Security Requirement MFSR1=2E




 



Manifest Field: Vendor ID condition



-----------------------------------



Vendor IDs MUST be unique=2E This is to prevent similarly, or identically =
named entities from different geographic regions from colliding in their cu=
stomer’s infrastructure=2E Recommended practice is to use type 5 UUID=
s with the vendor’s domain name and the UUID
 DNS prefix=2E Other options include type 1 and type 4 UUIDs=2E




 



Implements: Security Requirement MFSR2, MFSR4=2E




 



Manifest Field: Class ID condition



-----------------------------------



Class Identifiers MUST be unique within a Vendor ID=2E This is to prevent =
similarly, or identically named devices colliding in their customer’s=
 infrastructure=2E Recommended practice is to use type 5 UUIDs with the mod=
el, hardware revision, etc=2E and use the Vendor
 ID as the UUID prefix=2E Other options include type 1 and type 4 UUIDs=2E=
 A device “Class” is defined as any device that can run the sam=
e firmware without modification=2E Classes MAY be implemented in a more gra=
nular way=2E Classes MUST NOT be implemented in a less
 granular way=2E Class ID can encompass model name, hardware revision, sof=
tware revision=2E Devices MAY have multiple Class IDs=2E
<=
/div>



 



Implements: Security Requirement MFSR2, MFSR4=2E




 




Manifest Field: Precursor Image Digest Condition






-----------------------------------
When a precursor =
image is required by the payload format, a precursor image digest condition=
 MUST be present in the conditions list=2E







Implements: Security Requirement MFSR4










Manifest Field: Best-Before timestamp



-----------------------------------



This field tells a device the last application time=2E This is only usable=
 in conjunction with a secure clock=2E




 



Implements Security Requirement MFSR3




 



Manifest Field: Payload Format



-----------------------------------



The format of the payload must be indicated to devices is in an unambiguou=
s way=2E This field provides a mechanism to describe the payload format, wi=
thin the signed metadata=2E




 



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4, Usability Requirement 
MFUR5




 



Manifest Field: Storage Location



-----------------------------------



This field tells the device which component is being updated=2E The device=
 can use this to establish which permissions are necessary and the physical=
 location to use=2E




 



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4




 



Manifest Field: URIs



-----------------------------------



This field is a list of weighted URIs that the device uses to select where=
 to obtain a payload=2E




 



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4




 



Manifest Field: digests



-----------------------------------



This field is a map of digests, each for a separate stage of installation=
=2E This allows the target device to ensure authenticity of the payload at =
every step of installation=2E




 



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4




 



Manifest Field: Size



-----------------------------------



The size of the payload in bytes=2E




 



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4










Manifest Field: Signature




-----------------------------------


This is not strictly a manifest field=2E Instead, the manifest is =
wrapped by a standardised=
 signature
 container, such as a COSE or CMS signature object=2E The signature contai=
ner MUST support multiple signatures=2E







Implements Security Requirement MFSR5, MFUR4




 



Manifest Field: Directives



-----------------------------------



A list of instructions that the device should execute, in order, when inst=
alling the payload=2E




 



Implements Usability Requirement MFUR1




 



Manifest Field: Aliases



-----------------------------------



A list of URI/Digest pairs=2E A device should build an alias table while p=
aring a manifest tree and treat any aliases as top-ranked URIs for the corr=
esponding digest=2E




 



Implements Usability Requirement MFUR2




 



Manifest Field: Dependencies



-----------------------------------



A list of URI/Digest pairs that refer to other manifests by digest=2E The =
manifests that are linked in this way must be acquired and installed simult=
aneously in order to form a complete update=2E




 



Implements Usability Requirement MFUR3

























IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confi=
dential and may also be privileged=2E If you are not the intended recipient=
, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to =
any other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium=2E Thank you=2E




-- 

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------XOP3XW6MU6GYAXVJJOVY9V8LRH2L9D--


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org
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Hi Michael,

Only a quick remark (since I am jetlagged).

When quantum resistance was mentioned in earlier discussions it referred to=
 the use of different algorithms rather than signing multiple times (see Se=
ction 10 of RFC 8240).

I haven't looked at the quantum resistant crypto proposals, such as https:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-housley-cms-mts-hash-sig-07, and their performan=
ce implications myself. It would indeed be useful/interesting if someone co=
uld explore this space a bit more and collect some data. While large signat=
ure sizes have been reported those may not necessary matter as much since t=
he firmware updates are less frequent and the firmware images are generally=
 larger (and therefore the overhead from the signature itself may be relati=
vely small).
In general, however, IoT device security will not look great if quantum com=
puters become a reality since IoT devices are typically tailored for the gi=
ven task. OEMs do not seem to over-dimension the CPU, and other aspects of =
the system (unless there are other reasons). These devices have limited spa=
ce for storing keys in secure memory, and switching to other algorithms may=
 not be easy either when hardware crypto is used.

Authorizing a firmware update by multiple parties is a requirement, as expl=
ained in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/suit/Hq8NjQJG-EEvHSWjIXMXhCg=
x1OA. It has surfaced also on the mailing list in discussions before. Hence=
, I think this functionality should be covered. Authorizing a firmware upda=
te by multiple parties will not necessarily imply signing it multiple times=
 (as discussed in Section 3 of RFC 8240). It remains to be seen how often i=
t will be used in low end IoT devices a lot.

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
Sent: 10 November 2017 22:49
To: suit@ietf.org
Subject: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats


The proposed architectures that we have either assume a relatively capable =
bootloader, or the ability to double buffer images.

One of the advantages of the double buffering is that the firmware update c=
ode itself can easily be updated.
Updating a bootloader image may be significantly more risky, and so I imagi=
ne that it might rarely or never occur in a device's lifetime.

So my question is: how much concern should we put into quantum resistant si=
gnature algorithms?  Is it worth the risk of being on the bleeding edge her=
e with the hope of winning?  Should we perhaps plan on our manifests (and
images) being signed more than once by the same entity using different algo=
rithms?


--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works  -=3D =
IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.


From nobody Fri Nov 10 08:37:33 2017
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From: Russ Housley 
In-Reply-To: <21176.1510325360@obiwan.sandelman.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 11:37:28 -0500
Cc: suit@ietf.org
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References: <21176.1510325360@obiwan.sandelman.ca>
To: Michael Richardson 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273)
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org
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Please take a look at draft-housley-cms-mts-hash-sig-07.  It show how =
hash-based signatures would be used with RFC 4108.

Russ


> On Nov 10, 2017, at 9:49 AM, Michael Richardson =
 wrote:
>=20
>=20
> The proposed architectures that we have either assume a relatively =
capable
> bootloader, or the ability to double buffer images.
>=20
> One of the advantages of the double buffering is that the firmware =
update
> code itself can easily be updated.
> Updating a bootloader image may be significantly more risky, and so I =
imagine
> that it might rarely or never occur in a device's lifetime.
>=20
> So my question is: how much concern should we put into quantum =
resistant
> signature algorithms?  Is it worth the risk of being on the bleeding =
edge
> here with the hope of winning?  Should we perhaps plan on our =
manifests (and
> images) being signed more than once by the same entity using different
> algorithms?
>=20
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-


From nobody Fri Nov 10 09:52:44 2017
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Brendan Moran  wrote:
    > This is very interesting. I don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s a pro=
blem in terms of
    > multiple signatures so far.

Agreed.

    > The way that I envision signature verification working is that the
    > device must simply accrue sufficient permissions to install an update:
    > * Each signer has a set of permissions for each component/storageId *
    > Each component specifies which permissions are required to install to
    > that component/storageId

Sure... but I was specifically thinking is that a manufacturer could
introduce the new Quantum-resistant signatures to the packages as soon as
such a standard (in the form of an OID or IANA allocation) became available.
I think that there is some concern that the quantum-resistant methods may
prove to be secure.  But, if one introduced them soon, and continued to rely
on E{C,d}DSA signatures as well, then there a double hedge against each one
being defeated.
(If both are defeated, then we are in short-term trouble if we have no third
method, but in any case, we have to get third method deployed)

    > To keep the boot loader simple, you can terminate the trust
    > relationship with the update authority in the suit client. If that=E2=
=80=99s
    > the case, then the boot loader can work with MAC instead. This does n=
ot
    > provide for a full secure-boot story, but it does provide for updated
    > cryptographic primitives.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
I think you are talking about secure boot (validating the image is good
before booting it), vs validating the image is good before storing it to fl=
ash?

=2D-
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
    > I haven't looked at the quantum resistant crypto proposals, such as
    > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-housley-cms-mts-hash-sig-07, and
    > their performance implications myself. It would indeed be
    > useful/interesting if someone could explore this space a bit more and
    > collect some data. While large signature sizes have been reported those

Agreed.

...

    > Authorizing a firmware update by multiple parties is a requirement, as
    > explained in
    > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/suit/Hq8NjQJG-EEvHSWjIXMXhCgx1OA. It
    > has surfaced also on the mailing list in discussions before. Hence, I
    > think this functionality should be covered. Authorizing a firmware
    > update by multiple parties will not necessarily imply signing it
    > multiple times (as discussed in Section 3 of RFC 8240). It remains to
    > be seen how often it will be used in low end IoT devices a lot.

exactly: multiple signatures from different parties was already in scope.
I'm suggesting that multiple signatures from the same entity should be in
scope.  (Note this also covers some ways of doing key-rollover!)


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Russ Housley  wrote:
    > Please take a look at draft-housley-cms-mts-hash-sig-07.  It show how
    > hash-based signatures would be used with RFC 4108.

Yes, I had no doubt that we had options we could include.

For a bootloader that won't get updated ever for the lifetime (20yr) of a
device, do you think that mts-hash SHOULD be a MTI?

(And if not, how would we transition to such a scheme?)

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From: Brendan Moran 
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From: Marti Bolivar 
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 14:03:13 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Henk Birkholz 
Cc: suit@ietf.org, Brendan Moran ,  Hannes Tschofenig , trishank@nyu.edu
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Threat Model and User Stories for draft-moran-suit-manifest-00
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Hi,

This is my first post to the list, so as a partial introduction, I'm a
developer who has done some work on mcuboot [1]. SUIT invited the mcuboot
developers to lurk / participate, and here I am.

First off, let me emphatically second Henk's comments regarding the
commendable and important work done here, and add another +1 to STRIDE.

As a question to Brendan, do you have any comments on the relationship
between the threats listed here and the goals discussed by Trishank in his
recent email to the list regarding TUF / Uptane, especially those
pertaining to compromise resiliency? My company is also interested in TUF /
Notary / etc. in the Linux arena [2], and it'd be useful to have your
perspective comparing and contrasting TUF's threat model and SUIT's.

Thanks,
Marti


[1] https://github.com/runtimeco/mcuboot
[2]
http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/embedded-linux-conference-europe/p=
rogram/schedule

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Henk Birkholz <
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> +1 to STRIDE in respect to achievable threat models. Please consider that
> additional use cases e.g from Richard & Caraten might have to be taken in=
to
> account, resulting in merged or added use cases (or usage scenarios, some
> of the use cases look more like those).
>
> In any case, your approach is commendable and should be applied more
> rigorously in many cases, I think.
>
> Alas, it is a very resource consuming process, but I will try my best to
> provide comments and feedback after .sg, because your approach deserves
> both attention and support.
>
> Thank you for taking on the effort, Brendon. You are addressing an
> important prerequisite.
>
> Hochachtungsvoll,
>
> Henk
>
>
> On November 10, 2017 11:27:09 PM GMT+08:00, Brendan Moran <
> Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:
>>
>> The manifest format as described in draft-moran-suit-manifest-00 was
>> designed using a threat model and a set of User stories. From the threat
>> model, we extracted security requirements that mitigate the threats and
>> placed fields in the manifest that enable implementation of the security
>> requirements. From the user stories, we extracted usability requirements
>> that enable those user stories, and placed fields in the manifest that
>> implement those usability requirements.
>>
>>
>> Note that not all user stories are covered here. This is intentional,
>> since there are a great many possible user stories, only sufficient user
>> stories to cover the fields in the Manifest have been included.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Brendan Moran
>>
>>
>> Threat Model
>>
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> I will describe the threats we have considered, the security requirement=
s
>> that are derived from those threats and the fields that permit
>> implementation of the security requirements. I will address the threats =
in
>> the order that the relevant fields appear.
>>
>>
>> This model uses the S.T.R.I.D.E. approach. Each threat is classified
>> according to:
>>
>> * Spoofing Identity
>>
>> * Tampering with data
>>
>> * Repudiation
>>
>> * Information disclosure
>>
>> * Denial of service
>>
>> * Elevation of privilege
>>
>> See here for more information on The STRIDE Threat Model:
>> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee823878(v=3Dcs.20).aspx
>>
>>
>> N.B. In firmware update, it is common for an attack to expose all classe=
s
>> of threat.
>>
>>
>>
>> Threat Descriptions
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
>> Threat MFT1: Old Firmware
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: Escalation of Privilege
>>
>>
>> An attacker sends an old, but valid manifest to a device with an old, bu=
t
>> valid payload. If there is a known vulnerability in the payload, this ca=
n
>> allow an attacker to gain complete control of a device.
>>
>>
>> Threat Escalation: If the attacker is able to exploit the known
>> vulnerability, then this threat can be escalated to ALL TYPES
>>
>>
>> Threat MFT2: Mismatched Firmware
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: Denial of Service
>>
>>
>> An attacker sends valid firmware, for the wrong type of device, signed b=
y
>> an actor with firmware installation authority on both types of device. T=
he
>> firmware is trusted by the device because it is signed by an actor with
>> firmware installation authority. This could have wide-ranging consequenc=
es.
>> For devices that are similar, it could cause minor breakage, or expose
>> security vulnerabilities. For devices that are very different, it is lik=
ely
>> to render devices inoperable.
>>
>>
>> Threat MFT3: Offline device + Old Firmware
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: Escalation of Privilege
>>
>> An attacker targets a device that has been offline for a long time and
>> runs an old firmware version. The attacker sends an old, but valid manif=
est
>> to a device with an old, but valid payload. The attacker-provided firmwa=
re
>> is newer than the installed one but older than the most recently availab=
le
>> firmware. If there is a known vulnerability in the payload, this can all=
ow
>> an attacker to gain complete control of a device. Because the device has
>> been offline for a long time, it is unaware of any new updates. As such =
it
>> will treat the old manifest as the most current.
>>
>> Threat Escalation: If the attacker is able to exploit the known
>> vulnerability, then this threat can be escalated to ALL TYPES
>>
>>
>> Threat MFT4: The target device misinterprets the type of payload.
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: Denial of Service
>>
>>
>> If a device misinterprets the payload type, it may cause a device to
>> install a payload incorrectly. An incorrectly installed payload would
>> likely cause the device to stop functioning.
>>
>>
>> Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to misinterpret
>> the received code and could gain an Escalation of Privilege and potentia=
lly
>> expand this to all types of threat.
>>
>> Threat MFT5: The target device installs the payload to the wrong locatio=
n
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: Denial of Service
>>
>>
>> If a device installs code or data to the wrong part of the device, then
>> it is likely to break. A firmware installed as configuration or a networ=
k
>> stack installed as an application could cause a device to stop functioni=
ng.
>>
>> Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to misinterpret
>> the received code and could gain an Escalation of Privilege and potentia=
lly
>> expand this to all types of threat.
>>
>> Threat MFT6: Redirection
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: Denial of Service
>>
>>
>> If a device does not know where to obtain the payload for an update, it
>> may be redirected to an attacker=E2=80=99s server. This would allow an a=
ttacker to
>> provide broken payloads to devices without needing to construct a Man in
>> the Middle.
>>
>>
>> Threat MFT7: Payload Verification on Boot
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: All Types
>>
>>
>> An attacker replaces a newly downloaded firmware after a device finishes
>> verifying a manifest. This could cause the device to execute the attacke=
r=E2=80=99s
>> code. This attack likely requires physical access to the device, however=
 it
>> is possible that it could be carried out when combined with another thre=
at
>> that allows remote execution.
>>
>> Threat MFT8: Unauthenticated Updates
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: All Types
>>
>> If an attacker can install their firmware on a device, by manipulating
>> either payload or metadata, then they have complete control of the devic=
e.
>>
>> Threat MFT9: Unexpected Precursor images
>> -----------------------------------
>> Classification: Denial of Service
>>
>> An attacker sends a valid, current manifest to a device that has an
>> unexpected precursor image. If a payload format requires a precursor ima=
ge
>> (for example, delta updates) and that precursor image is not available o=
n
>> the target device, it could cause the update to break.
>>
>> Threat Escalation: An attacker that can cause a device to install a
>> payload against the wrong precursor image could gain an Escalation of
>> Privilege and potentially expand this to all types of threat.
>>
>>
>> Security Requirements
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> The security requirements here are a set of policies that mitigate the
>> threats described in the previous section
>>
>> Security Requirement MFSR1: monotonic sequence numbers
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Only an actor with firmware installation authority is permitted to decid=
e
>> when device firmware can be installed. To enforce this rule, Manifests M=
UST
>> contain a monotonic sequence number. Manifests MAY use UTC epoch timesta=
mps
>> to coordinate monotonic sequence numbers across many actors in many
>> locations. Devices MUST reject manifests with sequence numbers smaller t=
han
>> any onboard sequence number.
>>
>>
>> N.B. This is not a firmware version. It is a manifest sequence number. A
>> firmware version may be rolled back by creating a new manifest for the o=
ld
>> firmware version with a later sequence number.
>>
>>
>> Mitigates: Threat MFT1
>>
>>
>> Security Requirement MFSR2: Vendor, device-type identifiers
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Devices MUST only apply firmware that is intended for them. Devices MUST
>> know with fine granularity that a given update applies to their vendor,
>> model, hardware revision, software revision. Human-readable identifiers =
are
>> often error-prone in this regard, so Unique-IDs SHOULD be used.
>>
>>
>> Mitigates: Threat MFT2
>>
>>
>> Security Requirement MFSR3: Best-Before timestamps
>> -----------------------------------
>> Firmware MAY expire after a given time. Devices MAY provide a secure
>> clock (local or remote). If a secure clock is provided and the Firmware
>> Manifest has a best-before timestamp, the device MUST reject the
>> manifest if current time is larger than the best-before time.
>>
>> Mitigates: Threat MFT3
>>
>> Security Requirement MFSR4: Signed Payload Descriptor
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> All descriptive information about the payload MUST be signed. This MUST
>> include:
>>
>> * The location to store the payload
>>
>> * The payload digest, in each state of installation (encrypted,
>> plaintext, installed, etc.)
>>
>> * The payload size
>>
>> * The payload format
>>
>> * Where to obtain the payload
>>
>> * All instructions or parameters for applying the payload
>>
>> * Any rules that identify whether or not the payload can be used on this
>> device
>>
>>
>> Mitigates: Threats MFT5, MFT6, MFT7,
>>
>> MFT9
>>
>> Security Requirement MFSR5: Provable authenticity
>> -----------------------------------
>> The authenticity of an update must be provable, with sufficient levels o=
f
>> entropy to remain secure for the lifetime of the device. Typically, this
>> means that updates must be signed. Other proof mechanisms are acceptable=
,
>> such as MACs, or Authenticated Encryption, or AEAD algorithms. Because t=
he
>> manifest contains information about how to install the update, the
>> manifest's authenticity must be provable. To reduce the overhead require=
d
>> for validation, the manifest contains the digest of the payload, rather
>> than another signature. This does not change the provability of the
>> payload. The authenticity of the manifest is provable with a signature, =
the
>> authenticity of the payload digest is provable with the manifest, and th=
e
>> authenticity of the payload is provable with the payload digest.
>>
>> Mitigates: Threat MFT8
>>
>>
>> User Stories
>>
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> User stories provide expected use-cases. These are used to feed into
>> usability requirements.
>>
>>
>> Use Case MFUC1: Installation Instructions
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> As an OEM for IoT devices, I want to provide my devices with additional
>> installation instructions so that I can keep process detail out of my
>> payload data.
>>
>>
>> Some installation instructions might be:
>>
>> * Specify a package handler
>>
>> * Use a table of hashes to ensure that each block of the payload is
>> validate before writing.
>>
>> * Run post-processing script after the update is installed
>>
>> * Do not report progress
>>
>> * Pre-cache the update, but do not install
>>
>> * Install the pre-cached update matching this manifest
>>
>> * Install this update immediately, overriding any long-running tasks.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Use Case MFUC2: Operator Infrastructure
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> As an Operator of IoT devices, I would like to tell my devices to look a=
t
>> my own infrastructure for payloads so that I can manage the traffic
>> generated by firmware updates on my network and my peers=E2=80=99 networ=
ks.
>>
>>
>> Use Case MFUC3: Modular Update
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> As an OEM of IoT devices, I want to divide my firmware into frequently
>> updated and infrequently updated components, so that I can reduce the si=
ze
>> of updates and make different parties responsible for different componen=
ts.
>>
>>
>> Use Case MFUC4: Multiple Authorisations
>> -----------------------------------
>>
>> As an Operator, I want to ensure the quality of a firmware update before
>> installing it, so that I can ensure a high standard of reliability on my
>> network. The OEM may restrict my ability to create firmware, so I cannot=
 be
>> the only authority on the device.
>>
>>
>> Use Case MFUC5: Multiple Payload Formats
>> -----------------------------------
>>
>> As a OEM or Operator of devices, I want to be able to send multiple
>> payload formats to suit the needs of my update, so that I can optimise t=
he
>> bandwidth used by my devices.
>>
>>
>> Usability Requirements
>>
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> The following usability requirements satisfy the user stories listed
>> above.
>>
>>
>> Usability Requirement MFUR1:
>>
>> It must be possible to write additional installation instructions into
>> the manifest.
>>
>>
>> Satisfies Use-Case MFUC1
>>
>>
>> Usability Requirement MFUR2:
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> It must be possible to redirect payload fetches. This applies where two
>> manifests are used in conjunction. For example, an OEM manifest specifie=
s a
>> payload and signs it, and provides a URI for that payload. An Operator
>> creates a second manifest, with a dependency on the first. They use this
>> second manifest to override the URIs provided by the OEM, directing them
>> into their own infrastructure instead.
>>
>>
>> Satisfies Use-Case MFUC2
>>
>>
>> Usability Requirement MFUR3:
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> It MUST be possible to link multiple manifests together so that a
>> multi-component update can be described. This allows multiple parties wi=
th
>> different permissions to collaborate in creating a single update for the
>> IoT device, across multiple components.
>>
>>
>> Satisfies Use-Case MFUC2, MFUC3
>>
>>
>> Usability Requirement MFUR4:
>> -----------------------------------
>> It MUST be possible to sign a manifest multiple times so that signatures
>> from multiple parties with different permissions can be required in orde=
r
>> to authorise installation of a manifest.
>>
>> Satisfies Use-Case MFUC4
>>
>> Usability Requirement MFUR5:
>> -----------------------------------
>> The manifest format MUST accommodate any payload format that an operator
>> or OEM wishes to use. Some examples of payload format would be:
>>
>> * Binary
>>
>> * Elf
>>
>> * Differential
>>
>> * Compressed
>> * Packed configuration
>>
>> Satisfies Use-Case MFUC5
>>
>>
>> Manifest Fields:
>>
>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> Each manifest field is anchored in a security requirement or a usability
>> requirement. The manifest fields are described below and justified by th=
eir
>> requirements.
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Timestamp
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> A monotonic sequence number, implemented as an integer Timestamp.
>>
>>
>> Implements: Security Requirement MFSR1.
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Vendor ID condition
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Vendor IDs MUST be unique. This is to prevent similarly, or identically
>> named entities from different geographic regions from colliding in their
>> customer=E2=80=99s infrastructure. Recommended practice is to use type 5=
 UUIDs with
>> the vendor=E2=80=99s domain name and the UUID DNS prefix. Other options =
include
>> type 1 and type 4 UUIDs.
>>
>>
>> Implements: Security Requirement MFSR2, MFSR4.
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Class ID condition
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Class Identifiers MUST be unique within a Vendor ID. This is to prevent
>> similarly, or identically named devices colliding in their customer=E2=
=80=99s
>> infrastructure. Recommended practice is to use type 5 UUIDs with the mod=
el,
>> hardware revision, etc. and use the Vendor ID as the UUID prefix. Other
>> options include type 1 and type 4 UUIDs. A device =E2=80=9CClass=E2=80=
=9D is defined as any
>> device that can run the same firmware without modification. Classes MAY =
be
>> implemented in a more granular way. Classes MUST NOT be implemented in a
>> less granular way. Class ID can encompass model name, hardware revision,
>> software revision. Devices MAY have multiple Class IDs.
>>
>>
>> Implements: Security Requirement MFSR2, MFSR4.
>>
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Precursor Image Digest Condition
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> When a precursor image is required by the payload format, a precursor
>> image digest condition MUST be present in the conditions list.
>>
>> Implements: Security Requirement MFSR4
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Best-Before timestamp
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> This field tells a device the last application time. This is only usable
>> in conjunction with a secure clock.
>>
>>
>> Implements Security Requirement MFSR3
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Payload Format
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> The format of the payload must be indicated to devices is in an
>> unambiguous way. This field provides a mechanism to describe the payload
>> format, within the signed metadata.
>>
>>
>> Implements Security Requirement MFSR4, Usability Requirement
>>
>> MFUR5
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Storage Location
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> This field tells the device which component is being updated. The device
>> can use this to establish which permissions are necessary and the physic=
al
>> location to use.
>>
>>
>> Implements Security Requirement MFSR4
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: URIs
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> This field is a list of weighted URIs that the device uses to select
>> where to obtain a payload.
>>
>>
>> Implements Security Requirement MFSR4
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: digests
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> This field is a map of digests, each for a separate stage of
>> installation. This allows the target device to ensure authenticity of th=
e
>> payload at every step of installation.
>>
>>
>> Implements Security Requirement MFSR4
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Size
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> The size of the payload in bytes.
>>
>>
>> Implements Security Requirement MFSR4
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Signature
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>>
>> This is not strictly a manifest field. Instead, the manifest is wrapped
>> by a standardised signature container, such as a COSE or CMS signature
>> object. The signature container MUST support multiple signatures.
>>
>>
>> Implements Security Requirement MFSR5, MFUR4
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Directives
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> A list of instructions that the device should execute, in order, when
>> installing the payload.
>>
>>
>> Implements Usability Requirement MFUR1
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Aliases
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> A list of URI/Digest pairs. A device should build an alias table while
>> paring a manifest tree and treat any aliases as top-ranked URIs for the
>> corresponding digest.
>>
>>
>> Implements Usability Requirement MFUR2
>>
>>
>> Manifest Field: Dependencies
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> A list of URI/Digest pairs that refer to other manifests by digest. The
>> manifests that are linked in this way must be acquired and installed
>> simultaneously in order to form a complete update.
>>
>>
>> Implements Usability Requirement MFUR3
>>
>>
>>
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy t=
he
>> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>
>

--f403045f538c97aebd055da59223
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi,

This is my first post to the list, =
so as a partial introduction, I'm a developer who has done some work on=
 mcuboot [1]. SUIT invited the mcuboot developers to lurk / participate, an=
d here I am.

First off, let me emphatically second=
 Henk's comments regarding the commendable and important work done here=
, and add another +1 to STRIDE.

As a question to B=
rendan, do you have any comments on the relationship between the threats li=
sted here and the goals discussed by Trishank in his recent email to the li=
st regarding TUF / Uptane, especially those pertaining to compromise resili=
ency? My company is also interested in TUF / Notary / etc. in the Linux are=
na [2], and it'd be useful to have your perspective comparing and contr=
asting TUF's threat model and SUIT's.

Than=
ks,
Marti



On Fr=
i, Nov 10, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@si=
t.fraunhofer.de> wrote:




+1 to STRIDE in respect to achievable t=
hreat models. Please consider that additional use cases e.g from Richard &a=
mp; Caraten might have to be taken into account, resulting in merged or add=
ed use cases (or usage scenarios, some of the use cases look more like thos=
e).



In any case, your approach is commendable and should be applied more rigoro=
usly in many cases, I think.



Alas, it is a very resource consuming  process, but I will try my best to p=
rovide comments and feedback after .sg, because your approach deserves both=
 attention and support.



Thank you for taking on the effort, Brendon. You are addressing an importan=
t prerequisite.



Hochachtungsvoll,



Henk


On November 1=
0, 2017 11:27:09 PM GMT+08:00, Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:



The manifest format as described in draft-moran-suit-manifest-00 was design=
ed using a threat model and a set of User stories. From the threat model, w=
e extracted security requirements that mitigate the threats and placed fiel=
ds in the manifest that enable implementation
 of the security requirements. From the=C2=A0user stories, we extracted usa=
bility requirements that enable those user stories, and placed fields in th=
e manifest that implement those usability requirements.









Note that not all user stories are covered here. This is intentional, since=
 there are a great many possible user stories, only sufficient user stories=
 to cover the fields in the Manifest have been included.









Best Regards,



Brendan Moran




=C2=A0



Threat Model



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



I will describe the threats we have consider=
ed, the security requirements that are derived from those threats and the f=
ields that permit implementation of the security requirements. I will addre=
ss the threats in the order
 that the relevant fields appear.








=C2=A0



This model uses the S.T.R.I.D.E. approach. Each threat is classified accord=
ing to:



* Spoofing Identity



* Tampering with data



* Repudiation



* Information disclosure



* Denial of service



* Elevation of privilege



See here for more information on The STRIDE Threat Model:=C2=A0https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee823878(v=3D=
cs.20).aspx




=C2=A0



N.B. In firmware update, it is common for an attack to expose all classes o=
f threat.




=C2=A0




Threat Descriptions



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



=C2=A0



Threat MFT1: Old Firmware



-----------------------------------



Classification: Escalation of Privilege




=C2=A0



An attacker sends an old, but valid manifest to a device with an old, but v=
alid payload. If there is a known vulnerability in the payload, this can al=
low an attacker to gain complete control of a device.




=C2=A0



Threat Escalation: If the attacker is able to exploit the known vulnerabili=
ty, then this threat can be escalated to ALL TYPES




=C2=A0



Threat MFT2: Mismatched Firmware



-----------------------------------



Classification: Denial of Service




=C2=A0



An attacker sends valid firmware, for the wrong type of device, signed by a=
n actor with firmware installation authority on both types of device. The f=
irmware is trusted by the device because it is signed by an actor with firm=
ware installation authority. This
 could have wide-ranging consequences. For devices that are similar, it cou=
ld cause minor breakage, or expose security vulnerabilities. For devices th=
at are very different, it is likely to render devices inoperable.




=C2=A0



Threat MFT3: Offline device + Old Firmware



-----------------------------------



Classification: Escalation of Privilege








<=
span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">An attacker targets a device =
that has been offline for a long time and runs an old firmware version. The=
 attacker
 sends an old, but valid manifest to a device with an old, but=C2=A0valid p=
ayload. The attacker-provided firmware is newer than the installed one but =
older than the most recently available firmware. If there is a known vulner=
ability in the=C2=A0payload, this can allow
 an attacker to gain complete control of a device. Because the device has b=
een offline for a long time, it is unaware of any new updates. As such it w=
ill=C2=A0treat the old manifest as the most current.


<=
span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">







Threat Escalation: If the attacker is able to exploit the known vulnerabili=
ty, then this threat can be escalated to ALL TYPES




=C2=A0



Threat MFT4: The target device misinterprets the type of payload.



-----------------------------------



Classification: Denial of Service




=C2=A0



If a device misinterprets the payload type, it may cause a device to instal=
l a payload incorrectly. An incorrectly installed payload would likely caus=
e the device to stop functioning.








<=
span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">Threat Escalation: An attacke=
r that can cause a device to misinterpret the received code and could gain =
an Escalation
 of Privilege and potentially expand this to all types of=C2=A0threat.


<=
span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">







Threat MFT5: The target device installs the payload to the wrong location



-----------------------------------



Classification: Denial of Service




=C2=A0



If a device installs code or data to the wrong part of the device, then it =
is likely to break. A firmware installed as configuration or a network stac=
k installed as an application could cause a device to stop functioning.







<=
span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">Threat Escalation: An attacke=
r that can cause a device to misinterpret the received code and could gain =
an Escalation
 of Privilege and potentially expand this to all types of=C2=A0threat.


<=
span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">







Threat MFT6: Redirection




---------------------=
--------------


Classification: Denial of Service










=C2=A0



If a device does not know where to obtain the payload for an update, it may=
 be redirected to an attacker=E2=80=99s server. This would allow an attacke=
r to provide broken payloads to devices without needing to construct a Man =
in the Middle.




=C2=A0



Threat MFT7: Payload Verification on Boot



-----------------------------------



Classification: All Types




=C2=A0



An attacker replaces a newly downloaded firmware after a device finishes ve=
rifying a manifest. This could cause the device to execute the attacker=E2=
=80=99s code. This attack likely requires physical access to the device, ho=
wever it is possible that it could be carried
 out when combined with another threat that allows remote execution.









Threat MFT8: Unauthenticated Updates





-----------------------------------



Classification: All Types









If an attacker can install their firmware on a device, by manipulating eith=
er payload or metadata, then they have complete control of the device.








Threat MFT9: Unexpected Precursor images





-----------------------------------



Classification:=C2=A0Denial of Service








<=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt">An attacker sends a valid, current manifest t=
o a device that has an unexpected precursor image. If a payload format requ=
ires a
 precursor image (for example, delta updates) and that precursor image is n=
ot available on the target device, it could=C2=A0cause=C2=
=A0the update to break.


<=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt">




Threat Escalation: An attacker th=
at can cause a device to install a payload against the wrong precursor imag=
e could gain
 an Escalation of Privilege and potentially expand this to all types of=C2=
=A0threat.



















Security Requirements




=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


The security requirements here are a set of policies that mitigate the=
 threats described in the previous section












Security Requirement MFSR1: monotonic sequence numbers=C2=A0



-----------------------------------


Only an actor with firmware installation authority is perm=
itted to decide when device firmware can be installed. To enforce this rule=
, Manifests
 MUST contain a monotonic sequence number. Manifests MAY use=C2=A0UTC epoch=C2=A0timestamps
 to coordinate monotonic sequence numbers across many actors in many locati=
ons. Devices MUST reject manifests with sequence numbers smaller than any o=
nboard sequence number.








=C2=A0



N.B. This is not a firmware version. It is a manifest sequence number. A fi=
rmware version may be rolled back by creating a new manifest for the old fi=
rmware version with a later sequence number.




=C2=A0



Mitigates: Threat MFT1




=C2=A0



Security Requirement MFSR2: Vendor, device-type identifiers=C2=A0



-----------------------------------



Devices MUST only apply firmware that is int=
ended for them. Devices MUST know with fine granularity that a given update=
 applies to their vendor, model, hardware revision, software revision. Huma=
n-readable identifiers
 are often error-prone in this regard, so Unique-IDs SHOULD be used.=









=C2=A0



Mitigates: Threat MFT2




=C2=A0



Security Requirement MFSR3: Best-Before timestamps





-----------------------------------


<=
span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">Firmware MAY expire after a g=
iven time. Devices MAY provide a secure clock (local or remote). If a secur=
e clock
 is provided and the Firmware Manifest has a best-before=C2=A0timestamp, th=
e device MUST reject the manifest=C2=A0if current time is larger than the b=
est-before time.

=C2=A0

Mitigates: Threat MFT3


<=
span style=3D"font-size:14.666666984558105px">







Security Requirement MFSR4: Signed Payload Descriptor



-----------------------------------



All descriptive information about the payloa=
d MUST be signed. This MUST include:







* The location to store the payload



* The payload digest, in each state of installation (encrypted, plaintext, =
installed, etc.)



* The payload size



* The payload format



* Where to obtain the payload



* All instructions or parameters for applying the payload



* Any rules that identify whether or not the payload can be used on this de=
vice




=C2=A0



Mitigates: Threats MFT5, MFT6, MFT7,=C2=A0
MFT9









Security Requirement MFSR5: Provable authenticity





-----------------------------------


The authenticity of an update must be provable, with sufficient=
 levels of entropy to remain secure for the lifetime of the device. Typical=
ly, this
 means that updates must be signed. Other proof mechanisms are acceptable, =
such as MACs, or Authenticated Encryption, or AEAD algorithms. Because the =
manifest contains=C2=A0information about how to install the update, the man=
ifest's authenticity must be provable.
 To reduce the overhead required for validation, the manifest contains the =
digest of the payload,=C2=A0rather than another signature. This does not ch=
ange the provability of the payload. The authenticity of the manifest is pr=
ovable with a signature, the authenticity
 of the payload digest is=C2=A0provable with the manifest, and the authenti=
city of the payload is provable with the payload digest.






Mitigates: Thr=
eat MFT8






=C2=A0







User Stories



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



User stories provide expected use-cases. These are used to feed into usabil=
ity requirements.




=C2=A0



Use Case MFUC1: Installation Instructions



-----------------------------------



As an OEM for IoT devices, I want to provide my devices with additional ins=
tallation instructions so that I can keep process detail out of my payload =
data.




=C2=A0



Some installation instructions might be:



* Specify a package handler



* Use a table of hashes to ensure that each block of the payload is validat=
e before writing.



* Run post-processing script after the update is installed



* Do not report progress



* Pre-cache the update, but do not install



* Install the pre-cached update matching this manifest



* Install this update immediately, overriding any long-running tasks.




=C2=A0




=C2=A0



Use Case MFUC2: Operator Infrastructure



-----------------------------------



As an Operator of IoT devices, I would like to tell my devices to look at m=
y own infrastructure for payloads so that I can manage the traffic generate=
d by firmware updates on my network and my peers=E2=80=99 networks.
<=
/div>



=C2=A0



Use Case MFUC3: Modular Update



-----------------------------------



As an OEM of IoT devices, I want to divide my firmware into frequently upda=
ted and infrequently updated components, so that I can reduce the size of u=
pdates and make different parties responsible for different components.
<=
/p>











Use Case MFUC4: Multiple Authorisations



-----------------------------------




As an Operator, I want to ensure the quality of a firmware update before=
 installing it, so that I can ensure a high standard of reliability on my n=
etwork. The OEM may restrict my ability to create firmware, so I cannot be =
the only authority on
 the device.











Use Case MFUC5: Multiple Payload Formats



-----------------------------------




As a OEM or Operator of devices, I want to be able to send multiple payl=
oad formats to suit the needs of my update, so that I can optimise the band=
width used by my devices.









=C2=A0



Usability Requirements



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



The following usability requirements satisfy the user stories listed above.=





=C2=A0



Usability Requirement MFUR1:



It must be possible to write additional installation instructions into the =
manifest.




=C2=A0



Satisfies Use-Case MFUC1




=C2=A0



Usability Requirement MFUR2:



-----------------------------------



It must be possible to redirect payload fetches. This applies where two man=
ifests are used in conjunction. For example, an OEM manifest specifies a pa=
yload and signs it, and provides a URI for that payload. An Operator create=
s a second manifest, with a dependency
 on the first. They use this second manifest to override the URIs provided =
by the OEM, directing them into their own infrastructure instead.




=C2=A0



Satisfies Use-Case MFUC2




=C2=A0



Usability Requirement MFUR3:



-----------------------------------



It MUST be possible to link multiple manifests together so that a multi-com=
ponent update can be described. This allows multiple parties with different=
 permissions to collaborate in creating a single update for the IoT device,=
 across multiple components.




=C2=A0



Satisfies Use-Case MFUC2, MFUC3




=C2=A0



Usability Requirement MFUR4:




---------------------=
--------------


It MUST be possible to sign a manifest multiple times so that signatur=
es from multiple parties with different permissions can be required in orde=
r to authorise installation of a manifest.







Satisfies Use-Case MFUC4







Usability Requirement=
 MFUR5:




---------------------=
--------------




The manifest format MUST accommodate any payload format that an operat=
or or OEM wishes to use.=C2=A0Some examples =
of payload format would be:=C2=A0


* Binary


* Elf


* Differential
=



* Compressed


* Packed configuratio=
n







Satisfies Use-Case MFUC5















Manifest Fields:



=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



Each manifest field is anchored in a security requirement or a usability re=
quirement. The manifest fields are described below and justified by their r=
equirements.




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Timestamp



-----------------------------------



A monotonic sequence number, implemented as an integer=C2=A0Timestamp.




=C2=A0



Implements: Security Requirement MFSR1.




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Vendor ID condition



-----------------------------------



Vendor IDs MUST be unique. This is to prevent similarly, or identically nam=
ed entities from different geographic regions from colliding in their custo=
mer=E2=80=99s infrastructure. Recommended practice is to use type 5 UUIDs w=
ith the vendor=E2=80=99s domain name and the UUID
 DNS prefix. Other options include type 1 and type 4 UUIDs.




=C2=A0



Implements: Security Requirement MFSR2, MFSR4.




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Class ID condition



-----------------------------------



Class Identifiers MUST be unique within a Vendor ID. This is to prevent sim=
ilarly, or identically named devices colliding in their customer=E2=80=99s =
infrastructure. Recommended practice is to use type 5 UUIDs with the model,=
 hardware revision, etc. and use the Vendor
 ID as the UUID prefix. Other options include type 1 and type 4 UUIDs. A de=
vice =E2=80=9CClass=E2=80=9D is defined as any device that can run the same=
 firmware without modification. Classes MAY be implemented in a more granul=
ar way. Classes MUST NOT be implemented in a less
 granular way. Class ID can encompass model name, hardware revision, softwa=
re revision. Devices MAY have multiple Class IDs.




=C2=A0



Implements: Security Requirement MFSR2, MFSR4.




=C2=A0




Manifest Field: Precursor Image Digest Condition






-----------------=
------------------
When a precursor image is required by the=
 payload format, a precursor image digest condition MUST be present in the =
conditions list.







Implements: Security Requirement MFSR4










Manifest Field: Best-Before timestamp



-----------------------------------



This field tells a device the last application time. This is only usable in=
 conjunction with a secure clock.




=C2=A0



Implements Security Requirement MFSR3




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Payload Format



-----------------------------------



The format of the payload must be indicated to devices is in an unambiguous=
 way. This field provides a mechanism to describe the payload format, withi=
n the signed metadata.




=C2=A0



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4, Usability Requirement=C2=A0
MF=
UR5




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Storage Location



-----------------------------------



This field tells the device which component is being updated. The device ca=
n use this to establish which permissions are necessary and the physical lo=
cation to use.




=C2=A0



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: URIs



-----------------------------------



This field is a list of weighted URIs that the device uses to select where =
to obtain a payload.




=C2=A0



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: digests



-----------------------------------



This field is a map of digests, each for a separate stage of installation. =
This allows the target device to ensure authenticity of the payload at ever=
y step of installation.




=C2=A0



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Size



-----------------------------------



The size of the payload in bytes.




=C2=A0



Implements Security Requirement MFSR4










Manifest Field: Signature




-----------------------------------


This is not strictly a manifest field. Ins=
tead, the manifest is wrapped by a=C2=A0standardised=C2=A0=
signature
 container, such as a COSE or CMS signature object. The signature container=
 MUST support multiple signatures.







Implements Security Requirement MFSR5, MFU=
R4




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Directives



-----------------------------------



A list of instructions that the device should execute, in order, when insta=
lling the payload.




=C2=A0



Implements Usability Requirement MFUR1




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Aliases



-----------------------------------



A list of URI/Digest pairs. A device should build an alias table while pari=
ng a manifest tree and treat any aliases as top-ranked URIs for the corresp=
onding digest.




=C2=A0



Implements Usability Requirement MFUR2




=C2=A0



Manifest Field: Dependencies



-----------------------------------



A list of URI/Digest pairs that refer to other manifests by digest. The man=
ifests that are linked in this way must be acquired and installed simultane=
ously in order to form a complete update.




=C2=A0



Implements Usability Requirement MFUR3

























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 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.




-- 

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.=

_______________________________________________

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From: Brendan Moran 
To: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" , Shikhar Sakhuja , "Justin Cappos" , Sebastien Awwad , Vladimir Diaz , Ariella C Feuchtwanger 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT
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--_000_59D85B3EF8384FBC901282ABC997024Barmcom_--


From nobody Fri Nov 10 13:43:27 2017
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 05:43:11 +0800
Cc: suit@ietf.org, Shikhar Sakhuja , Justin Cappos , Sebastien Awwad , Vladimir Diaz , Ariella C Feuchtwanger 
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To: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT
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At the HRPC RG meeting on Friday, there will be talk on Chainiac [1].

I think there is a lot we can learn from the ongoing academic work on =
software updating.
We do need to find a translation of these principles to the IoT, though, =
and Brendan has started pointing out some technical considerations.  =
There may also be differences in the kinds of stakeholders involved =
which lead to different security workflows.

For SUIT, we may want to layer the approach a bit so we can separate =
properties of the software update itself from the signed claims we need =
about (1) its provenance and (2) its appropriateness for installation at =
the specific device targeted.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

[1]: =
https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity17/technical-sessions/pres=
entation/nikitin


From nobody Fri Nov 10 14:08:26 2017
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 06:08:12 +0800
Cc: Brendan Moran , "suit@ietf.org" 
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References: <21176.1510325360@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <0C94DD02-3E70-41B2-B594-F500DD14E4C7@arm.com> <2360.1510336359@obiwan.sandelman.ca>
To: Michael Richardson 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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On Nov 11, 2017, at 01:52, Michael Richardson  =
wrote:
>=20
>> To keep the boot loader simple, you can terminate the trust
>> relationship with the update authority in the suit client. If =
that=E2=80=99s
>> the case, then the boot loader can work with MAC instead. This does =
not
>> provide for a full secure-boot story, but it does provide for updated
>> cryptographic primitives.
>=20
> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.
> I think you are talking about secure boot (validating the image is =
good
> before booting it), vs validating the image is good before storing it =
to flash?

I think Brendan is saying that a device that delegates most of its =
authorization functions to an authorization manager may be able to use =
its security association with that to check a simple MAC on a signed =
(here really: MACed) claim by the authorization manager.

Complexity arguments about the format are important.
But we also need to keep in mind that support in the format for more =
complex validation may not be needed in specific deployments.  As long =
as there is a way to express simple cases (such as the single-MAC based =
one above) in the format without undue complexity, there is no problem =
with supporting more complex validation as well for those deployments =
that need it and can support it.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Madjid Nakhjiri 
To: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-topic: Feedback/ comments on moran-suit-architecture
Thread-index: AQHTWnQ3dXo+ZwOWZUW3U3xb08I8gg==
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:35:31 +0000
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Archived-At: 
Subject: [Suit] Feedback/ comments on moran-suit-architecture
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Hi all, suit-architecture authors

I reviewed the draft and have some comments. I had originally embedded the =
comments in a txt file and sent to Hannes, but he asked to send to the list=
 and I am assuming the list does not accept attachment, so here it is. Sorr=
y for the long-winded list.

Introduction:
I wonder if 3rd use case is "Augmenting uninitiated devices with provisioni=
ng and configuration data from service operators"

Section 3.2 on broadcast delivery not relying on transport security. True a=
nd it should be pointed out:
integrity or confidentiality protection mechanisms should be applied during=
 image preparation and later installation process, instead. The same applie=
s for requirements regarding authorization for receiving the update by devi=
ces.
Note: I am wondering what the use case for FW update broadcast in true sens=
e is?

Section 3.3 regarding "the information that is encrypted individually for e=
ach device must be an absolute
   minimum."
This is hard to meet if the entire firmware image has to be protected.

Regarding "All information necessary for a device to make a decision about =
the
   installation of an update must fit into the available RAM of a
   constrained IoT device.  This prevents flash write exhaustion."

I am not clear on this ,if I hash the entire image and sign the hash, what =
is "all information necessary" in that case?
Are we saying all image has to fit in the RAM when the hash is being calcul=
ated? What if it resides on external flash?

Section 3.4
To be added IMO: download/distribution servers shall properly log informati=
on on download operation along with relevant metadata, such as device ident=
ity, FW metadata (manifest), result of download. Access to the logs shall b=
e protected through proper IAM mechanisms.


Section 6
Manifest should include "signing time" and version of image, so it can read=
ily be available for distribution servers w/o having to parse the image bef=
ore sending..


Regards,
Madjid Nakhjiri,
Sr. Director, ARTIK Security Architect


From nobody Fri Nov 10 14:48:20 2017
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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>> Please take a look at draft-housley-cms-mts-hash-sig-07.  It show how
>> hash-based signatures would be used with RFC 4108.
>=20
> Yes, I had no doubt that we had options we could include.
>=20
> For a bootloader that won't get updated ever for the lifetime (20yr) =
of a
> device, do you think that mts-hash SHOULD be a MTI?

If we do not deploy a quantum-resistant signature algorithm now, then we =
will not be able to trust the signature on the firmware that deploys the =
next generation of cryptographic algorithm after a large-scale quantum =
computer gets invented.  We need to deploy this protection now.  We will =
not get enough notice to roll it out later.  Look how long it too to =
transition away from SHA-1.

Russ


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From: Madjid Nakhjiri 
To: Russ Housley , Michael Richardson 
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-topic: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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References: <21176.1510325360@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <74B896C8-2C93-4AEB-9508-69E8CE5CB7CE@vigilsec.com> <8387.1510337691@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <6FFC42C7-5049-432B-B608-598D2596B3A2@vigilsec.com>
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Hi Russ,=20

Has been a long time. Are there SOCs out there with quantum resistant
signature algorithm support?


Regards,
Madjid Nakhjiri,=20
Sr. Director, ARTIK Security Architect




On 11/10/17, 2:48 PM, "Suit on behalf of Russ Housley"
 wrote:

>
>>> Please take a look at draft-housley-cms-mts-hash-sig-07.  It show how
>>> hash-based signatures would be used with RFC 4108.
>>=20
>> Yes, I had no doubt that we had options we could include.
>>=20
>> For a bootloader that won't get updated ever for the lifetime (20yr) of
>>a
>> device, do you think that mts-hash SHOULD be a MTI?
>
>If we do not deploy a quantum-resistant signature algorithm now, then we
>will not be able to trust the signature on the firmware that deploys the
>next generation of cryptographic algorithm after a large-scale quantum
>computer gets invented.  We need to deploy this protection now.  We will
>not get enough notice to roll it out later.  Look how long it too to
>transition away from SHA-1.
>
>Russ
>
>_______________________________________________
>Suit mailing list
>Suit@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>


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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:55:47 -0500
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Cc: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy , suit@ietf.org, Shikhar Sakhuja ,  Sebastien Awwad , Vladimir Diaz ,  Ariella C Feuchtwanger 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT
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--f403045fbb06813583055da8d3e7
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Good to hear about this!  I'm an author on Chainiac as well as being the
BDFL for TUF.

We're happy to help however we can (join a call, Skype, answer questions
via email, etc.)...

Thanks,
Justin

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 4:43 PM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:

> At the HRPC RG meeting on Friday, there will be talk on Chainiac [1].
>
> I think there is a lot we can learn from the ongoing academic work on
> software updating.
> We do need to find a translation of these principles to the IoT, though,
> and Brendan has started pointing out some technical considerations.  Ther=
e
> may also be differences in the kinds of stakeholders involved which lead =
to
> different security workflows.
>
> For SUIT, we may want to layer the approach a bit so we can separate
> properties of the software update itself from the signed claims we need
> about (1) its provenance and (2) its appropriateness for installation at
> the specific device targeted.
>
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>
> [1]: https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity17/
> technical-sessions/presentation/nikitin
>
>

--f403045fbb06813583055da8d3e7
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Good to hear about this!=C2=A0 I'm an author on Chaini=
ac as well as being the BDFL for TUF.=C2=A0=C2=A0

We'=
;re happy to help however we can (join a call, Skype, answer questions via =
email, etc.)...

Thanks,
Justin

On Fri, Nov 10,=
 2017 at 4:43 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
At the HRPC RG meeting on Friday, there will be ta=
lk on Chainiac [1].



I think there is a lot we can learn from the ongoing academic work on softw=
are updating.

We do need to find a translation of these principles to the IoT, though, an=
d Brendan has started pointing out some technical considerations.=C2=A0 The=
re may also be differences in the kinds of stakeholders involved which lead=
 to different security workflows.



For SUIT, we may want to layer the approach a bit so we can separate proper=
ties of the software update itself from the signed claims we need about (1)=
 its provenance and (2) its appropriateness for installation at the specifi=
c device targeted.



Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



[1]: https=
://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity17/technical-sessions/=
presentation/nikitin







--f403045fbb06813583055da8d3e7--


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From: Bryan Ford 
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Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:43:09 +0100
To: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] Chainiac software update transparency work, presentations at CFRG and HRPC
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Dear SUIT folks,

I just wanted to let you know about some recent transparency work from =
my lab at EPFL, which we presented at USENIX Security =E2=80=9917 and =
may be of interest to this group:

CHAINIAC: Proactive Software-Update Transparency via Collectively Signed =
Skipchains and Verified Builds
=
https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity17/technical-sessions/pres=
entation/nikitin =


Abstract: Software-update mechanisms are critical to the security of =
modern systems, but their typically centralized design presents a =
lucrative and frequently attacked target. In this work, we propose =
CHAINIAC, a decentralized software-update framework that eliminates =
single points of failure, enforces transparency, and provides efficient =
verifiability of integrity and authenticity for software-release =
processes. Independent witness servers collectively verify conformance =
of software updates to release policies, build verifiers validate the =
source-to-binary correspondence, and a tamper-proof release log stores =
collectively signed updates, thus ensuring that no release is accepted =
by clients before being widely disclosed and validated. The release log =
embodies a skipchain, a novel data structure, enabling arbitrarily =
out-of-date clients to efficiently validate updates and signing keys. =
Evaluation of our CHAINIAC prototype on reproducible Debian packages =
shows that the automated update process takes the average of 5 minutes =
per release for individual packages, and only 20 seconds for the =
aggregate timeline. We further evaluate the framework using real-world =
data from the PyPI package repository and show that it offers clients =
security comparable to verifying every single update themselves while =
consuming only one-fifth of the bandwidth and having a minimal =
computational overhead.

I=E2=80=99ll be at IETF 100 but unfortunately can=E2=80=99t make it =
until after the trans meeting.  But I will be doing two brief =
Chainiac-related presentations in two IRTF meetings later in the week:

- In the CFRG meeting on Wednesday I=E2=80=99ll talk about SkipChains, =
the cryptographically traversable blockchain structure enabling offline =
and peer-to-peer verification of updates.
- In the HRPC meeting on Friday I=E2=80=99ll talk about the end-to-end =
software supply chain security and transparency issues that the Chainiac =
architecture addresses.

Thanks
Bryan


--Apple-Mail=_91B9B2CD-1548-4EAF-AB43-D71594589812
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Dear SUIT folks,

I just wanted to let you know about some recent transparency =
work from my lab at EPFL, which we presented at USENIX Security =E2=80=991=
7 and may be of interest to this group:

CHAINIAC: Proactive =
Software-Update Transparency via Collectively =
Signed Skipchains and Verified Builds
https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity17/technical-se=
ssions/presentation/nikitin

Abstract: Software-update mechanisms =
are critical to the security of modern systems, but their typically =
centralized design presents a lucrative and frequently attacked =
target. In this work, we propose CHAINIAC, a decentralized =
software-update framework that eliminates single points of failure, =
enforces transparency, and provides efficient verifiability of integrity =
and authenticity for software-release processes. =
Independent witness servers collectively verify conformance of =
software updates to release policies, build verifiers validate =
the source-to-binary correspondence, and a tamper-proof release log =
stores collectively signed updates, thus ensuring that no release is =
accepted by clients before being widely disclosed and validated. =
The release log embodies a skipchain, a novel data structure, =
enabling arbitrarily out-of-date clients to efficiently validate =
updates and signing keys. Evaluation of our CHAINIAC prototype on =
reproducible Debian packages shows that the automated update =
process takes the average of 5 minutes per release for individual =
packages, and only 20 seconds for the aggregate timeline. We =
further evaluate the framework using real-world data from the PyPI =
package repository and show that it offers clients =
security comparable to verifying every single update themselves =
while consuming only one-fifth of the bandwidth and having a =
minimal computational overhead.

I=E2=80=99ll be =
at IETF 100 but unfortunately can=E2=80=99t make it until after the =
trans meeting.  But I will be doing two brief Chainiac-related =
presentations in two IRTF meetings later in the week:

- In the CFRG meeting on Wednesday =
I=E2=80=99ll talk about SkipChains, the cryptographically traversable =
blockchain structure enabling offline and peer-to-peer verification of =
updates.
- In the HRPC meeting on Friday I=E2=80=99ll=
 talk about the end-to-end software supply chain security and =
transparency issues that the Chainiac architecture addresses.

Thanks
Bryan

=

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On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:

>
>
> Complexity arguments about the format are important.
> [...] As long as there is a way to express simple cases (such as the
> single-MAC based one above) in the format without undue complexity, there
> is no problem with supporting more complex validation as well for those
> deployments that need it and can support it.
>
>
+1

We need to keep in mind the basic case of:

- single authority/signature,
- IoT devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash,
- single firmware,

which *cannot* be burdened with too much complexity while we try to cover
more elaborate use-cases.

Best,

Emmanuel

--001a1143dfd6c4cbff055db3991b
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On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Carsten Bormann <=
;cabo@tzi.org> wrote:




Complexity arguments about the format are important.

[...] As long as there is a way to express simple cases (such as the single=
-MAC based one above) in the format without undue complexity, there is no p=
roblem with supporting more complex validation as well for those deployment=
s that need it and can support it.



+1

We need to=
 keep in mind the basic case of:

- single authorit=
y/signature,
- IoT devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash,
- single firmware,

which *cannot* be burd=
ened with too much complexity while we try to cover more elaborate use-case=
s.

Best,

Emmanuel
=C2=A0


--001a1143dfd6c4cbff055db3991b--


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To: Madjid Nakhjiri 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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On Nov 11, 2017, at 06:55, Madjid Nakhjiri  =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Russ,=20
>=20
> Has been a long time. Are there SOCs out there with quantum resistant
> signature algorithm support?

All of them do support verifying Merkle-tree signatures (as long as they =
can run programs).

draft-mcgrew-hash-sigs-07 is based on SHA-256, which you can either run =
in CPU code or may have hardware support for.  Since firmware upgrades =
don=E2=80=99t happen every second, the overhead for that should be =
negligible (and is dominated by computing the hash of the firmware =
itself, anyway).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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To: suit@ietf.org, Brendan Moran , Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
CC: Justin Cappos , "suit@ietf.org" , Shikhar Sakhuja , Ariella C Feuchtwanger , Sebastien Awwad , Vladimir Diaz 
From: "David A. Wheeler" 
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>By the way it is written, I think it is fair to say that TUF is largely
>aimed at high-bandwidth networks and homogenous thick clients,
>particularly with human interface=2E Uptane deals with many of these
>issues=2E The problem is different in the IoT space=2E=2E=2E

I think the suit spec should specifically note TUF and uptane, and do a qu=
ick comparison of the differences and rationales for them=2E Many people wi=
ll want to know the difference is, and why=2E Making the relationship clear=
 would really help=2E

--- David A=2EWheeler


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--=-=-=
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Madjid Nakhjiri  wrote:
    > Has been a long time. Are there SOCs out there with quantum resistant
    > signature algorithm support?

As Carsten said, we can run SHA256-based merkle-tree algorithms today.

There are some quantum resistant asymmetric methods which are being
development (NIST is having a competition I think), but my understanding that
none have the confidence we need, and there are IPR on some of them.

So, I think that I agree strongly with Russ.

Russ said:
    >> If we do not deploy a quantum-resistant signature algorithm now, then
    >> we will not be able to trust the signature on the firmware that
    >> deploys the next generation of cryptographic algorithm after a
    >> large-scale quantum computer gets invented.  We need to deploy this
    >> protection now.  We will not get enough notice to roll it out later.
    >> Look how long it too to transition away from SHA-1.


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 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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--=-=-=
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Brendan Moran  wrote:
    mcr> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.  I think you are
    mcr> talking about secure boot (validating the image is good before booting
    mcr> it), vs validating the image is good before storing it to flash?

    > Yes, the point I am making is that you can handle boot loader
    > verification by using MAC with a key that is shared only between the
    > Suit client and the boot loader. Then, the boot loader trusts the Suit
    > client to validate the update using up-to-date cryptographic

    > primitives. In IoT devices that support a secure execution context,
    > delegating this to the Suit client on behalf of the boot loader may be
    > a more acceptable tradeoff, provided that the signature verification
    > portion of the Suit client runs in the secure context.

i.e. the SUIT client has to have enough priveledge to update the MAC
     that the boot loader uses to validate the firmware.

In a double-buffer approach, the SUIT client would be in the main firmware.
You are saying, I think that the problem with this approach is that an
exploit again the SUIT client permits the attacker to write/update the MAC
that the boot loader uses, while an asymetric validation by the boot loader
requires no priveledged write.

I feel uncomfortable with the assumption that the SUIT manifest->boot loader
can be run in a trusted environment.  I think we are just trading one set of
potentially reviewable trusted code for another set of unreviewable trusted code.

{I keep typing "boat loader"...}

    > So, there is a tradeoff here. Either the bootloader becomes complex and
    > must contain several modern asymmetric cryptographic primitives, or it
    > becomes simple, but trusts the Suit client.

But, I think that we can consider this all an implementation detail, and that
really it does not affect whether or not we can support a Quantum resistant
signature.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [


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To: Emmanuel Baccelli 
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Emmanuel Baccelli  wrote:
    > Complexity arguments about the format are important.
    > [...] As long as there is a way to express simple cases (such as
    > the single-MAC based one above) in the format without undue
    > complexity, there is no problem with supporting more complex
    > validation as well for those deployments that need it and can
    > support it.



    > +1

    > We need to keep in mind the basic case of:

    > - single authority/signature,
    > - IoT devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash,
    > - single firmware,

    > which *cannot* be burdened with too much complexity while we try to
    > cover more elaborate use-cases.

So, by "single firmware" are you saying that boot-loader downloads and validates?
Do you think we need need to make transfer protocol accomodations for such a
boot-loader?   This might be LWIG rather than SUIT work.


--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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To: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] Observation on Manifest discussions
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Fellow suits from one of the real IETF suits...  :)

I was pointed today to this work and the Manifest discussion.  I would 
like to share some work I am involved in along with Carsten Bormann and 
Henk Birkholz:

Building "CBOR Concise Identities", or said in another way, mapping 
X.509 content into CBOR.

Here is a paste of a slide I have been using:

Goal is to use CBOR to replace all encodings in constrained IoT

  * Where possible
  * e.g. COSE – RFC8152
      o CBOR Object Signing and Encryption
  * Next step is elimination of need of ASN.1
      o And thus replacement for X.509

So work on the basis that there will be IoT devices with NO ASN.1.

Bob


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    Fellow suits from one of the real IETF suits...  :)

    

    I was pointed today to this work and the Manifest discussion.  I
    would like to share some work I am involved in along with Carsten
    Bormann and Henk Birkholz:  

    

    Building "CBOR Concise Identities", or said in another way, mapping
    X.509 content into CBOR.

    

    Here is a paste of a slide I have been using:

    

    Goal is to use CBOR to replace all encodings in constrained IoT

    
    
      
  • Where possible
    • 
      
  • e.g. COSE – RFC8152
    • 
      
      
        
    • CBOR Object Signing and Encryption
      • 
      
    
      
  • Next step is elimination of need of ASN.1
    • 
      
      
        
    • And thus replacement for X.509
      • 
      
    
    

    So work on the basis that there will be IoT devices with NO ASN.1.

    

    Bob

    

  


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To: suit@ietf.org
From: "Dr. Pala" 
Organization: OpenCA Labs
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:15:02 +0800
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Subject: [Suit] Possible additional considerations for Suit
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Hi all,

after reading the material for the meeting, few high-level=20
considerations popped into my mind that I think it might be useful to=20
raise early. Here's the laundry list:

  * *Device Credentials for Firmware Access.* It seems that an
    alternative to per-device encryption is the possibility of allowing
    only authenticated devices to access/download/retrieve the firmware
    itself (This requires a transport protocol that would support the
    use of device-provided credentials)

  * *IP vs. non-IP Devices.* I wonder if some special considerations
    shall be given for IP vs. non-IP devices that might still be
    targeted for data extraction via device gateways.

  * *Firmware and Deployment.* How to allow for separation of device
    manufacturer firmware validation and deployment enabling in selected
    environments (i.e., another way to target the deployment of the
    firmware). For example, environments where deployment of the
    update(s) could be controlled by a third party (e.g., network
    operator). How to address that ?

  * *Public Crypto.* Is there any interest in providing any special
    considerations for devices that have support for public crypto
    (e.g., small crypto accelerators - ECDSA-P256/SHA256)? The
    availability of small crypto chip that allow for secure storage and
    off-chip crypto ops might benefit from special
    treatment/considerations... ?

  * *Trust Anchor Management.* Key management is a hard problem, but
    Trust Anchor management is often ignored or left to the
    application/device manufacturer. Should the group also provide
    guidance about how to handle TAs and their updates? For example, in
    the case where TLS is used for authentication of the source, what is
    the relationship between the certificate used on the server and the
    firmware development?

Last comment, personally I think that the proposed approaches might all=20
provide a piece of the puzzle (authenticated manifest, signed firmware,=20
encryption, per-device encryption, and TLS). From the experience I have=20
with device manufacturers, the lack of experience on their part (in many =

cases) needs to be addressed by keeping the complexity of=20
implementation, deployment, and long-term management/support to a minimum=
=2E

Just my 2 cents...

Looking forward to the Bof discussion :-D

Cheers,
Max

--=20
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
OpenCA Logo

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--------------5B096B6492E2DDD467D7C974
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


  

    
  
  
    
Hi all,

    
after reading the material for the meeting, few high-level
      considerations popped into my mind that I think it might be useful
      to raise early. Here's the laundry list:

    
    
      
  • Device Credentials for Firmware Access. It seems that
        an alternative to per-device encryption is the possibility of
        allowing only authenticated devices to access/download/retrieve
        the firmware itself (This requires a transport protocol that
        would support the use of device-provided credentials)
    
        
    
      
    • 
      
  • IP vs. non-IP Devices. I wonder if some special
        considerations shall be given for IP vs. non-IP devices that
        might still be targeted for data extraction via device gateways.<=
br>
        
    
      
    • 
      
  • Firmware and Deployment. How to allow for separation of
        device manufacturer firmware validation and deployment enabling
        in selected environments (i.e., another way to target the
        deployment of the firmware). For example, environments where
        deployment of the update(s) could be controlled by a third party
        (e.g., network operator). How to address that ?
    
        
    
      
    • 
      
  • Public Crypto. Is there any interest in providing any
        special considerations for devices that have support for public
        crypto (e.g., small crypto accelerators - ECDSA-P256/SHA256)?
        The availability of small crypto chip that allow for secure
        storage and off-chip crypto ops might benefit from special
        treatment/considerations... ?
    
        
    
      
    • 
      
  • Trust Anchor Management. Key management is a hard
        problem, but Trust Anchor management is often ignored or left to
        the application/device manufacturer. Should the group also
        provide guidance about how to handle TAs and their updates? For
        example, in the case where TLS is used for authentication of the
        source, what is the relationship between the certificate used on
        the server and the firmware development?
    • 
    

    
Last comment, personally I think that the proposed approaches
      might all provide a piece of the puzzle (authenticated manifest,
      signed firmware, encryption, per-device encryption, and TLS). From
      the experience I have with device manufacturers, the lack of
      experience on their part (in many cases) needs to be addressed by
      keeping the complexity of implementation, deployment, and
      long-term management/support to a minimum.

    
Just my 2 cents...

    
Looking forward to the Bof discussion :-D

    

    
Cheers,

      Max

    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        3D"OpenCA

      

    

  


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From nobody Sun Nov 12 23:22:39 2017
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To: suit@ietf.org
From: "Dr. Pala" 
Organization: OpenCA Labs
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Subject: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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Hi all,

I quickly skimmed the draft and I have a question for the authors. In=20
particular, it seems that the authors mandate for the use of CBOR for=20
authentication/encryption of Payload (COSE_Encrypt) and Manifest=20
(COSE_Mac, COSE_Mac) without, AFAIK, ever mentioning CBOR explicitly.

If that is correct (I got through it VERY quickly), since the Charter=20
explicitly focuses on ASN.1 encoding (and CBOR, if ever, might be=20
considered in the future), I am a little confused about the use of COSE=20
in the I-D.

Can the author(s) provide some clarification on this point ?

Cheers,
Max

--=20
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
OpenCA Logo

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Hi all,

    
I quickly skimmed the draft and I have a question for the
      authors. In particular, it seems that the authors mandate for the
      use of CBOR for authentication/encryption of Payload
      (COSE_Encrypt) and Manifest (COSE_Mac, COSE_Mac) without, AFAIK,
      ever mentioning CBOR explicitly. 

    

    
If that is correct (I got through it VERY quickly), since the
      Charter explicitly focuses on ASN.1 encoding (and CBOR, if ever,
      might be considered in the future), I am a little confused about
      the use of COSE in the I-D.

    
Can the author(s) provide some clarification on this point ?

    

    
Cheers,

      Max

    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        3D"OpenCA

      

    

  


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From nobody Mon Nov 13 00:04:28 2017
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 16:04:12 +0800
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To: "Dr. Pala" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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On Nov 13, 2017, at 15:22, Dr. Pala  wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I quickly skimmed the draft and I have a question for the authors. In =
particular, it seems that the authors mandate for the use of CBOR for =
authentication/encryption of Payload (COSE_Encrypt) and Manifest =
(COSE_Mac, COSE_Mac) without, AFAIK, ever mentioning CBOR explicitly.=20
> If that is correct (I got through it VERY quickly), since the Charter =
explicitly focuses on ASN.1 encoding (and CBOR, if ever, might be =
considered in the future), I am a little confused about the use of COSE =
in the I-D.
>=20
> Can the author(s) provide some clarification on this point ?

I=E2=80=99m not an author, but I think it is abundantly clear that the =
current draft charter text does not reflect the current consensus.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



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To: "Dr. Pala" , suit@ietf.org
References: 
From: Robert Moskowitz 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Possible additional considerations for Suit
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On 11/13/2017 03:15 PM, Dr. Pala wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> after reading the material for the meeting, few high-level 
> considerations popped into my mind that I think it might be useful to 
> raise early. Here's the laundry list:
>
>   * *Device Credentials for Firmware Access.* It seems that an
>     alternative to per-device encryption is the possibility of
>     allowing only authenticated devices to access/download/retrieve
>     the firmware itself (This requires a transport protocol that would
>     support the use of device-provided credentials)
>
>   * *IP vs. non-IP Devices.* I wonder if some special considerations
>     shall be given for IP vs. non-IP devices that might still be
>     targeted for data extraction via device gateways.
>

If transport is out of scope, distinction between IP vs non-IP is not 
possible.  Of course it might be possible to profile different 
mechanisms that work over one or both of these.

>
>   * *Firmware and Deployment.* How to allow for separation of device
>     manufacturer firmware validation and deployment enabling in
>     selected environments (i.e., another way to target the deployment
>     of the firmware). For example, environments where deployment of
>     the update(s) could be controlled by a third party (e.g., network
>     operator). How to address that ?
>
>   * *Public Crypto.* Is there any interest in providing any special
>     considerations for devices that have support for public crypto
>     (e.g., small crypto accelerators - ECDSA-P256/SHA256)? The
>     availability of small crypto chip that allow for secure storage
>     and off-chip crypto ops might benefit from special
>     treatment/considerations... ?
>

Why do you stop at ECDSA?  What of ED25519?  We can get smaller with 
that.  Is it the job of SUIT to specify this?  I feel it might be an 
barrier to progress rather than a help.


>
>   * *Trust Anchor Management.* Key management is a hard problem, but
>     Trust Anchor management is often ignored or left to the
>     application/device manufacturer. Should the group also provide
>     guidance about how to handle TAs and their updates? For example,
>     in the case where TLS is used for authentication of the source,
>     what is the relationship between the certificate used on the
>     server and the firmware development?
>
> Last comment, personally I think that the proposed approaches might 
> all provide a piece of the puzzle (authenticated manifest, signed 
> firmware, encryption, per-device encryption, and TLS). From the 
> experience I have with device manufacturers, the lack of experience on 
> their part (in many cases) needs to be addressed by keeping the 
> complexity of implementation, deployment, and long-term 
> management/support to a minimum.
>
> Just my 2 cents...
>
> Looking forward to the Bof discussion :-D
>
> Cheers,
> Max
>
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
> OpenCA Labs Director
> OpenCA Logo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


--------------5BCBBF4E863723E4F41D75AB
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On 11/13/2017 03:15 PM, Dr. Pala wrote:

    

    

      
      
Hi all,

      
after reading the material for the meeting, few high-level
        considerations popped into my mind that I think it might be
        useful to raise early. Here's the laundry list:

      
    
        
  • Device Credentials for Firmware Access. It seems that
          an alternative to per-device encryption is the possibility of
          allowing only authenticated devices to
          access/download/retrieve the firmware itself (This requires a
          transport protocol that would support the use of
          device-provided credentials)
    
          
    
        
    • 
        
  • IP vs. non-IP Devices. I wonder if some special
          considerations shall be given for IP vs. non-IP devices that
          might still be targeted for data extraction via device
          gateways.
    
        
    • 
      

    

    

    If transport is out of scope, distinction between IP vs non-IP is
    not possible.  Of course it might be possible to profile different
    mechanisms that work over one or both of these.

    

    


      
    
        
  • Firmware and Deployment. How to allow for separation
          of device manufacturer firmware validation and deployment
          enabling in selected environments (i.e., another way to target
          the deployment of the firmware). For example, environments
          where deployment of the update(s) could be controlled by a
          third party (e.g., network operator). How to address that ?
    
          
    
        
    • 
        
  • Public Crypto. Is there any interest in providing any
          special considerations for devices that have support for
          public crypto (e.g., small crypto accelerators -
          ECDSA-P256/SHA256)? The availability of small crypto chip that
          allow for secure storage and off-chip crypto ops might benefit
          from special treatment/considerations... ?
    
        
    • 
      

    

    

    Why do you stop at ECDSA?  What of ED25519?  We can get smaller with
    that.  Is it the job of SUIT to specify this?  I feel it might be an
    barrier to progress rather than a help.

    

    

    


      
    
        
  • Trust Anchor Management. Key management is a hard
          problem, but Trust Anchor management is often ignored or left
          to the application/device manufacturer. Should the group also
          provide guidance about how to handle TAs and their updates?
          For example, in the case where TLS is used for authentication
          of the source, what is the relationship between the
          certificate used on the server and the firmware development?
    • 
      

      
Last comment, personally I think that the proposed approaches
        might all provide a piece of the puzzle (authenticated manifest,
        signed firmware, encryption, per-device encryption, and TLS).
        From the experience I have with device manufacturers, the lack
        of experience on their part (in many cases) needs to be
        addressed by keeping the complexity of implementation,
        deployment, and long-term management/support to a minimum.

      
Just my 2 cents...

      
Looking forward to the Bof discussion :-D

      

      
Cheers,

        Max

      

      
-- 

        
 Best Regards,
          
 Massimiliano
            Pala, Ph.D.

            OpenCA Labs Director

          

          OpenCA Logo

        

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


    

    

  


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From: "Dr. Pala" 
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Hi Robert, all,


On 11/13/17 4:15 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> [...]
>>
>>   * *IP vs. non-IP Devices.* I wonder if some special considerations
>>     shall be given for IP vs. non-IP devices that might still be
>>     targeted for data extraction via device gateways.
>>
> If transport is out of scope, distinction between IP vs non-IP is not 
> possible.  Of course it might be possible to profile different 
> mechanisms that work over one or both of these.
I had a different interpretation of the charter textl. In particular, I 
thought that although the WG would NOT define a new transport protocol, 
it might adopt existing ones (e.g., TLS) since it is listed as one of 
the component of the "firmware update solution."

This bullet point was meant to highlight that if specifying one or more 
transport protocol(s) and how they can be used for firmware updates is 
in scope, then we should be mindful of non-IP devices and how they 
should interact with the proposed protocol (e.g., via gateway devices).
> [...]
>>
>>   * *Public Crypto.* Is there any interest in providing any special
>>     considerations for devices that have support for public crypto
>>     (e.g., small crypto accelerators - ECDSA-P256/SHA256)? The
>>     availability of small crypto chip that allow for secure storage
>>     and off-chip crypto ops might benefit from special
>>     treatment/considerations... ?
>>
>
> Why do you stop at ECDSA?  What of ED25519?  We can get smaller with 
> that.  Is it the job of SUIT to specify this?  I feel it might be an 
> barrier to progress rather than a help.
The algorithms were provided just as an example as this is, currently, 
the industry standard for small IoT cryptography (both on devices and 
cloud providers' services). Personally, I think that the WG should 
provide guidance about what and how to use as algorithms.

IMHO, providing complete and easy-to-follow solutions is paramount to 
increase the chances of a wide-spread adoption of the standard(s).

Cheers,
Max



--------------E01F7674813B1530C486161B
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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Hi Robert, all,

    

    

    
On 11/13/17 4:15 PM, Robert Moskowitz
      wrote:

    

    

      
      [...]
      

        
    
          
  • IP vs. non-IP Devices. I wonder if some special
            considerations shall be given for IP vs. non-IP devices that
            might still be targeted for data extraction via device
            gateways.
    
          
    • 
        

      

      If transport is out of scope, distinction between IP vs non-IP is
      not possible.  Of course it might be possible to profile different
      mechanisms that work over one or both of these.

    

    I had a different interpretation of the charter textl. In
    particular, I thought that although the WG would NOT define a new
    transport protocol, it might adopt existing ones (e.g., TLS) since
    it is listed as one of the component of the "firmware update
    solution." 

    

    This bullet point was meant to highlight that if specifying one or
    more transport protocol(s) and how they can be used for firmware
    updates is in scope, then we should be mindful of non-IP devices and
    how they should interact with the proposed protocol (e.g., via
    gateway devices).

    
[...]
      

        
    
          
  • Public Crypto. Is there any interest in providing
            any special considerations for devices that have support for
            public crypto (e.g., small crypto accelerators -
            ECDSA-P256/SHA256)? The availability of small crypto chip
            that allow for secure storage and off-chip crypto ops might
            benefit from special treatment/considerations... ?
    
          
    • 
        

      

      

      Why do you stop at ECDSA?  What of ED25519?  We can get smaller
      with that.  Is it the job of SUIT to specify this?  I feel it
      might be an barrier to progress rather than a help.

    

    The algorithms were provided just as an example as this is,
    currently, the industry standard for small IoT cryptography (both on
    devices and cloud providers' services). Personally, I think that the
    WG should provide guidance about what and how to use as algorithms.
    

    

    IMHO, providing complete and easy-to-follow solutions is paramount
    to increase the chances of a wide-spread adoption of the
    standard(s).

    

    Cheers,

    Max

    

    

  


--------------E01F7674813B1530C486161B--


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To: "Dr. Pala" , suit@ietf.org
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On 11/13/2017 04:43 PM, Dr. Pala wrote:
>
> Hi Robert, all,
>
>
> On 11/13/17 4:15 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>> [...]
>>>
>>>   * *IP vs. non-IP Devices.* I wonder if some special considerations
>>>     shall be given for IP vs. non-IP devices that might still be
>>>     targeted for data extraction via device gateways.
>>>
>> If transport is out of scope, distinction between IP vs non-IP is not 
>> possible.  Of course it might be possible to profile different 
>> mechanisms that work over one or both of these.
> I had a different interpretation of the charter textl. In particular, 
> I thought that although the WG would NOT define a new transport 
> protocol, it might adopt existing ones (e.g., TLS) since it is listed 
> as one of the component of the "firmware update solution."
>
> This bullet point was meant to highlight that if specifying one or 
> more transport protocol(s) and how they can be used for firmware 
> updates is in scope, then we should be mindful of non-IP devices and 
> how they should interact with the proposed protocol (e.g., via gateway 
> devices).

Think CAN-FD devices.  Of course automotive has their own firmware 
update standards.

I also think a lot about devices that are on PHYs that do not/can not 
support IP.

But then it is hard for the IETF to talk about non-IP communicating devices!

>> [...]
>>>
>>>   * *Public Crypto.* Is there any interest in providing any special
>>>     considerations for devices that have support for public crypto
>>>     (e.g., small crypto accelerators - ECDSA-P256/SHA256)? The
>>>     availability of small crypto chip that allow for secure storage
>>>     and off-chip crypto ops might benefit from special
>>>     treatment/considerations... ?
>>>
>>
>> Why do you stop at ECDSA?  What of ED25519?  We can get smaller with 
>> that.  Is it the job of SUIT to specify this?  I feel it might be an 
>> barrier to progress rather than a help.
> The algorithms were provided just as an example as this is, currently, 
> the industry standard for small IoT cryptography (both on devices and 
> cloud providers' services). Personally, I think that the WG should 
> provide guidance about what and how to use as algorithms.
>
> IMHO, providing complete and easy-to-follow solutions is paramount to 
> increase the chances of a wide-spread adoption of the standard(s).
>
> Cheers,
> Max
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


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On 11/13/2017 04:43 PM, Dr. Pala wrote:

    

    

      
      
Hi Robert, all,

      

      

      
On 11/13/17 4:15 PM, Robert Moskowitz
        wrote:

      

      

        
        [...]
        

          
    
            
  • IP vs. non-IP Devices. I wonder if some special
              considerations shall be given for IP vs. non-IP devices
              that might still be targeted for data extraction via
              device gateways.
    
            
    • 
          

        

        If transport is out of scope, distinction between IP vs non-IP
        is not possible.  Of course it might be possible to profile
        different mechanisms that work over one or both of these.

      

      I had a different interpretation of the charter textl. In
      particular, I thought that although the WG would NOT define a new
      transport protocol, it might adopt existing ones (e.g., TLS) since
      it is listed as one of the component of the "firmware update
      solution." 

      

      This bullet point was meant to highlight that if specifying one or
      more transport protocol(s) and how they can be used for firmware
      updates is in scope, then we should be mindful of non-IP devices
      and how they should interact with the proposed protocol (e.g., via
      gateway devices).

    

    

    Think CAN-FD devices.  Of course automotive has their own firmware
    update standards.

    

    I also think a lot about devices that are on PHYs that do not/can
    not support IP.

    

    But then it is hard for the IETF to talk about non-IP communicating
    devices!

    

    

      
[...]
        

          
    
            
  • Public Crypto. Is there any interest in providing
              any special considerations for devices that have support
              for public crypto (e.g., small crypto accelerators -
              ECDSA-P256/SHA256)? The availability of small crypto chip
              that allow for secure storage and off-chip crypto ops
              might benefit from special treatment/considerations... ?
    
            
    • 
          

        

        

        Why do you stop at ECDSA?  What of ED25519?  We can get smaller
        with that.  Is it the job of SUIT to specify this?  I feel it
        might be an barrier to progress rather than a help.

      

      The algorithms were provided just as an example as this is,
      currently, the industry standard for small IoT cryptography (both
      on devices and cloud providers' services). Personally, I think
      that the WG should provide guidance about what and how to use as
      algorithms. 

      

      IMHO, providing complete and easy-to-follow solutions is paramount
      to increase the chances of a wide-spread adoption of the
      standard(s).

      

      Cheers,

      Max

      

      

      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


    

    

  


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From nobody Mon Nov 13 01:05:30 2017
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 10:05:22 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert 
To: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] suit charter points
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To repeat my comments on the mike in the BOF:

1. I would like to make sure that the charter allows for the following two points to
be defined into the architecture mentioned by the charter, even if not
all devices may be able to support them. IMHO these are mandatory for really
reliable firmware upgrade and it would be a wasted opportunity to do all this work
and yet only produce results for devices thart will not provide real reliable
ugprade solutions.

a) Ability for automatic downgrade, eg: automatic unless some external verification of
correct operation of the new firmware has succeeded. Ideally, verification of
the new firmware is trial-run download of yet another firmware image or the
like.. 

b) ability to query the device for capabilities thart will allow to understand
what firmware/signing/etc of a firmware will be accepted by the device.

2. Wrt to "new" components: Instead of saying "charter does not allow new work XXX"
(XXX = transport, serialization etc..). A better rule would be not do something new unless
evaluation shows that new work is required especially because of footprint of existing
solutions being too large for class 1 devices.

Toerless


From nobody Mon Nov 13 01:10:29 2017
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Subject: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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The meeting is running out of time.=20

But I wanted to followup to the discussion relating to my comment on the =
mic.

Hannes had responded by saying that we cannot specify who the potential =
sources are.

That wasn=E2=80=99t what I suggested or said. I would like the charter =
to say that there=E2=80=99s sufficient expressive power in the format to =
handle situations that go beyond the 1 source 1 permission case. The =
architecture draft already talks about this, although from a slightly =
different angle. The actual potential sources and styles of permissions =
are up to individual deployments. What we do in the IETF is =
capabilities, in formats and protocols and so on to enable individual =
deployments to express their situation with our tools. Obviously within =
some reasonable limits, given that we are talking about small, =
constrained devices.

I was thinking of something along the following lines:

"The format is expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of =
different software sources and permission models."

Jari


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From nobody Mon Nov 13 06:30:13 2017
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To: suit@ietf.org
References: <6437dc89-4706-dcdd-3b7a-f073c44ccfdb@openca.org> 
From: "Dr. Pala" 
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 22:29:58 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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Hi Hannes,

thanks for the clarification :D My personal experience is that with 
device vendors is that they will go long way to even "simplify" dealing 
with encoding (or, as it seems in this case, more decoding).

Maybe there could be also some space for considering ad-hoc (instead of 
generic encoding rules) binary formats that can be better understood by 
device manufacturer (that usually complain about having even a 5-10k 
enc/dec library... :D).

Thanks Again,

Ciao,
Max


On 11/13/17 5:57 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>
> Hi Max,
>
> Our initial submission described the implementation we have with the 
> mbed update service. It uses ASN.1 and we described why we thought the 
> choice of ASN.1.
>
> From the mailing list we learned that the cool kid in town is now 
> COSE/CBOR. Hence, we have tried to reflect this aspect in the design. 
> Of course, the current version of the document is not inline with our 
> implementation anymore.
>
> What format(s) the group will select in the end remains to be seen.
>
> Ciao
>
> Hannes
>
> *From:*Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Dr. Pala
> *Sent:* 13 November 2017 15:22
> *To:* suit@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
>
> Hi all,
>
> I quickly skimmed the draft and I have a question for the authors. In 
> particular, it seems that the authors mandate for the use of CBOR for 
> authentication/encryption of Payload (COSE_Encrypt) and Manifest 
> (COSE_Mac, COSE_Mac) without, AFAIK, ever mentioning CBOR explicitly.
>
> If that is correct (I got through it VERY quickly), since the Charter 
> explicitly focuses on ASN.1 encoding (and CBOR, if ever, might be 
> considered in the future), I am a little confused about the use of 
> COSE in the I-D.
>
> Can the author(s) provide some clarification on this point ?
>
> Cheers,
> Max
>
> -- 
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
> OpenCA Labs Director
>
> OpenCA Logo
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose 
> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or 
> copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


--------------FBD02134C2C191424B60DB88
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--------------57E18968470EAB32FE46FC72
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    
Hi Hannes,

    
thanks for the clarification :D My personal experience is that
      with device vendors is that they will go long way to even
      "simplify" dealing with encoding (or, as it seems in this case,
      more decoding). 

    

    
Maybe there could be also some space for considering ad-hoc
      (instead of generic encoding rules) binary formats that can be
      better understood by device manufacturer (that usually complain
      about having even a 5-10k enc/dec library... :D).

    
Thanks Again,

    
Ciao,

      Max

    

    

    
On 11/13/17 5:57 PM, Hannes Tschofenig
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
      
      
      

        
Hi
            Max,
            

        
 

        
Our
            initial submission described the implementation we have with
            the mbed update service. It uses ASN.1 and we described why
            we thought the choice of ASN.1.
            

        
 

        
From
            the mailing list we learned that the cool kid in town is now
            COSE/CBOR. Hence, we have tried to reflect this aspect in
            the design. Of course, the current version of the document
            is not inline with our implementation anymore. 

        
 

        
What
            format(s) the group will select in the end remains to be
            seen.
            

        
 

        
Ciao

        
Hannes

        
 

        

          

            
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org]
                On Behalf Of Dr. Pala

                Sent: 13 November 2017 15:22

                To: suit@ietf.org

                Subject: [Suit] Question about
                draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt

          

        

        
 

        
Hi all,

        
I quickly skimmed the draft and I have a question for the
          authors. In particular, it seems that the authors mandate for
          the use of CBOR for authentication/encryption of Payload
          (COSE_Encrypt) and Manifest (COSE_Mac, COSE_Mac) without,
          AFAIK, ever mentioning CBOR explicitly. 

        
If that is correct (I got through it VERY quickly), since the
          Charter explicitly focuses on ASN.1 encoding (and CBOR, if
          ever, might be considered in the future), I am a little
          confused about the use of COSE in the I-D.

        
Can the author(s) provide some clarification on this point ?

        
Cheers,

          Max

        

          
-- 

          

            
Best Regards, 

            

              
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

                OpenCA Labs Director

            

            
OpenCA
                Logo

          

        

      

      IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments
      are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the
      intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do
      not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any
      purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank
      you.
      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


    

    

  


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--------------57E18968470EAB32FE46FC72--

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To: "Dr. Pala" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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On Nov 13, 2017, at 22:29, Dr. Pala  wrote:
>=20
> Maybe there could be also some space for considering ad-hoc (instead =
of generic encoding rules) binary formats that can be better understood =
by device manufacturer (that usually complain about having even a 5-10k =
enc/dec library... :D).

Prepare to spend 722 bytes of code for the CBOR decoder library (unless =
you need floating point data, then it becomes around 800).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Hi Carsten,

that is really interesting! Can you please provide a reference to such 
implementation?

Thanks,
Max


On 11/13/17 11:21 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On Nov 13, 2017, at 22:29, Dr. Pala  wrote:
>> Maybe there could be also some space for considering ad-hoc (instead of generic encoding rules) binary formats that can be better understood by device manufacturer (that usually complain about having even a 5-10k enc/dec library... :D).
> Prepare to spend 722 bytes of code for the CBOR decoder library (unless you need floating point data, then it becomes around 800).
>


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From: Brendan Moran 
To: "Dr. Pala" 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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Hi Max,

There are many implementations listed here: http://cbor.io/impls.html
I believe the one that Carsten is referring to is this one: https://github.=
com/cabo/cn-cbor

Best Regards,
Brendan

On 13 Nov 2017, at 16:15, Dr. Pala > wrote:

Hi Carsten,

that is really interesting! Can you please provide a reference to such impl=
ementation?

Thanks,
Max


On 11/13/17 11:21 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
On Nov 13, 2017, at 22:29, Dr. Pala > wrote:
Maybe there could be also some space for considering ad-hoc (instead of gen=
eric encoding rules) binary formats that can be better understood by device=
 manufacturer (that usually complain about having even a 5-10k enc/dec libr=
ary... :D).
Prepare to spend 722 bytes of code for the CBOR decoder library (unless you=
 need floating point data, then it becomes around 800).


_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
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Hi Max,






There are many implementations listed here: http://cbor.io/impls.html


I believe the one that Carsten is referring to is this one:=
 https://github=
.com/cabo/cn-cbor







Best Regards,


Brendan









On 13 Nov 2017, at 16:15, Dr. Pala <madwolf@openca.org> wrote:






Hi Carsten,



that is really interesting! Can you please provide a reference to such impl=
ementation?



Thanks,

Max





On 11/13/17 11:21 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:


On Nov 13, 2017, at 22:29, Dr. Pala &l=
t;madwolf@openca.org&g=
t; wrote:


Maybe there could be also some space f=
or considering ad-hoc (instead of generic encoding rules) binary formats th=
at can be better understood by device manufacturer (that usually complain a=
bout having even a 5-10k enc/dec library...
 :D).



Prepare to spend 722 bytes of code for the CBOR decoder library (unless you=
 need floating point data, then it becomes around 800).







_______________________________________________

Suit mailing list

Suit@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit













IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.



--_000_2D8E2F4B9D264B84BC4C4CE2436BEF8Darmcom_--


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From: Madjid Nakhjiri 
To: Jari Arkko , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-topic: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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References:  
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Hi Jari,=20

Sorry, I am catching up on the context, as I subscribed a few days ago.
Can anybody point me to where examples for permission models are described?


Regards,
Madjid Nakhjiri,=20
Sr. Director, ARTIK Security Architect




On 11/13/17, 1:10 AM, "Suit on behalf of Jari Arkko"
 wrote:

>The meeting is running out of time.
>
>But I wanted to followup to the discussion relating to my comment on the
>mic.
>
>Hannes had responded by saying that we cannot specify who the potential
>sources are.
>
>That wasn=B9t what I suggested or said. I would like the charter to say
>that there=B9s sufficient expressive power in the format to handle
>situations that go beyond the 1 source 1 permission case. The
>architecture draft already talks about this, although from a slightly
>different angle. The actual potential sources and styles of permissions
>are up to individual deployments. What we do in the IETF is capabilities,
>in formats and protocols and so on to enable individual deployments to
>express their situation with our tools. Obviously within some reasonable
>limits, given that we are talking about small, constrained devices.
>
>I was thinking of something along the following lines:
>
>"The format is expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of
>different software sources and permission models."
>
>Jari
>
>_______________________________________________
>Suit mailing list
>Suit@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


From nobody Mon Nov 13 15:21:10 2017
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To: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] CBOR on MicroControllers (was Re: Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt)
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Hi Brendan,

thanks for the reference. From a quick scan of the C implementation it 
seems they all seem implementations that require an OS and/or stdlib (I 
might be wrong, though :D). Does anybody on the list have experience (or 
references) with developing CBOR on a microcontroller ?

Cheers,
Max


On 11/14/17 3:25 AM, Brendan Moran wrote:
> Hi Max,
>
> There are many implementations listed here: http://cbor.io/impls.html
> I believe the one that Carsten is referring to is this one: 
> https://github.com/cabo/cn-cbor
>
> Best Regards,
> Brendan
>
>> On 13 Nov 2017, at 16:15, Dr. Pala > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Carsten,
>>
>> that is really interesting! Can you please provide a reference to 
>> such implementation?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Max
>>
>>
>> On 11/13/17 11:21 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> On Nov 13, 2017, at 22:29, Dr. Pala >> > wrote:
>>>> Maybe there could be also some space for considering ad-hoc 
>>>> (instead of generic encoding rules) binary formats that can be 
>>>> better understood by device manufacturer (that usually complain 
>>>> about having even a 5-10k enc/dec library... :D).
>>> Prepare to spend 722 bytes of code for the CBOR decoder library 
>>> (unless you need floating point data, then it becomes around 800).
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


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Hi Brendan,

    
thanks for the reference. From a quick scan of the C
      implementation it seems they all seem implementations that require
      an OS and/or stdlib (I might be wrong, though :D). Does anybody on
      the list have experience (or references) with developing CBOR on a
      microcontroller ?

    
Cheers,

      Max

    

    

    
On 11/14/17 3:25 AM, Brendan Moran
      wrote:

    

    

      
      Hi Max,
      


      

      
There are many implementations listed here:http://cbor.io/impls.html

      
I believe the one that Carsten is referring to is
        this one:https://github.com/cabo/cn-cbor

      


      

      
Best Regards,

      
Brendan

      


        

          

            
On 13 Nov 2017, at 16:15, Dr. Pala <madwolf@openca.org> wrote:

            

            

              
Hi Carsten,

                

                that is really interesting! Can you please provide a
                reference to such implementation?

                

                Thanks,

                Max

                

                

                On 11/13/17 11:21 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:

                
On Nov 13, 2017, at
                  22:29, Dr. Pala <madwolf@openca.org>
                  wrote:

                  
Maybe there could be
                    also some space for considering ad-hoc (instead of
                    generic encoding rules) binary formats that can be
                    better understood by device manufacturer (that
                    usually complain about having even a 5-10k enc/dec
                    library... :D).

                  

                  Prepare to spend 722 bytes of code for the CBOR
                  decoder library (unless you need floating point data,
                  then it becomes around 800).

                  

                

                

                _______________________________________________

                Suit mailing list

                Suit@ietf.org

                https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

              

            

          

        

        

      

      IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments
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      intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do
      not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any
      purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank
      you.
      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


    

    

  


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> On Nov 14, 2017, at 07:20, Dr. Pala  wrote:
>=20
> Hi Brendan,
>=20
> thanks for the reference. =46rom a quick scan of the C implementation =
it seems they all seem implementations that require an OS and/or stdlib =
(I might be wrong, though :D). Does anybody on the list have experience =
(or references) with developing CBOR on a microcontroller ?

cn-cbor was specifically designed to run in an environment without =
malloc (even though it defaults to using it) =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s =
where the code size measurements are from.  There are a few other =
implementations of this kind, e.g. the one in RIOT (which does need some =
serious attention, though). Of course, the majority of the 45 =
implementations for 20 programming languages are for general purpose =
environments, if only because the language itself is so.  C, C++, and =
maybe Rust are the languages used in the embedded space.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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To: Jari Arkko , suit@ietf.org
References: 
From: Eliot Lear 
Message-ID: <03b5cdc4-3388-3d11-7126-54e9bfcebe95@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:15:49 +0800
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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From: Eliot Lear 
To: Jari Arkko , suit@ietf.org
Message-ID: <03b5cdc4-3388-3d11-7126-54e9bfcebe95@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources
 and permissions
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Hi Jari,

On 11/13/17 5:10 PM, Jari Arkko wrote:
> I was thinking of something along the following lines:
>
> "The format is expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of dif=
ferent software sources and permission models."
>

I wasn't in the room for the whole discussion, but I presume there are
two possible use cases here:

  * the case where a particular deployment wants to authorize and
    inventory specific releases for a given set of devices; and
  * the case where a manufacturer is about to drop dead, and you want
    someone else to be able to continue development in a deployable fashi=
on.

Is this something where what we are really talking about is just
cross-signed signing certificates?=C2=A0 The reason I'm asking is that it=

would be good to scope DOWN the work where possible.=C2=A0 The point is t=
hat
if we are able to scope toe work to at least prefer as much existing
infrastructure where practicable, that would be good.

Eliot



--------------4DEEA334352C314EECC8EDD4
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Hi Jari,

    

    
On 11/13/17 5:10 PM, Jari Arkko wrote:=


    

    

      
I was thinking of something along the following lines:

"The format is expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of diffe=
rent software sources and permission models."



    

    

    I wasn't in the room for the whole discussion, but I presume there
    are two possible use cases here:

    
    
      
  • the case where a particular deployment wants to authorize and
        inventory specific releases for a given set of devices; and
    • 
      
  • the case where a manufacturer is about to drop dead, and you
        want someone else to be able to continue development in a
        deployable fashion.
    • 
    

    
Is this something where what we are really talking about is just
      cross-signed signing certificates?=C2=A0 The reason I'm asking is t=
hat
      it would be good to scope DOWN the work where possible.=C2=A0 The p=
oint
      is that if we are able to scope toe work to at least prefer as
      much existing infrastructure where practicable, that would be
      good.

    

    
Eliot

    


    

  


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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
To: Toerless Eckert , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] suit charter points
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Subject: Re: [Suit] suit charter points
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Comments are inline below marked DAW.


Thanks,

Dave

________________________________
From: Suit  on behalf of Toerless Eckert 
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 5:05 PM
To: suit@ietf.org
Subject: [Suit] suit charter points

To repeat my comments on the mike in the BOF:

1. I would like to make sure that the charter allows for the following two =
points to
be defined into the architecture mentioned by the charter, even if not
all devices may be able to support them. IMHO these are mandatory for reall=
y
reliable firmware upgrade and it would be a wasted opportunity to do all th=
is work
and yet only produce results for devices thart will not provide real reliab=
le
ugprade solutions.

a) Ability for automatic downgrade, eg: automatic unless some external veri=
fication of
correct operation of the new firmware has succeeded. Ideally, verification =
of
the new firmware is trial-run download of yet another firmware image or the
like..

b) ability to query the device for capabilities thart will allow to underst=
and
what firmware/signing/etc of a firmware will be accepted by the device.

[DAW: (As chair) The charter does not prevent a resulting solution from sup=
porting these capabilities. If chartered, the group will need to discuss th=
is as part of our work on the architecture.

(as a participant) I believe there is room for this proposed working group =
to develop guidance on why some of these features are desirable, and to dis=
cuss how the solution may be used to support these features.]

2. Wrt to "new" components: Instead of saying "charter does not allow new w=
ork XXX"
(XXX =3D transport, serialization etc..). A better rule would be not do som=
ething new unless
evaluation shows that new work is required especially because of footprint =
of existing
solutions being too large for class 1 devices.

[DAW: (as chair) I think we need to do more work in this space before we ge=
t to a point where this might even be proven true. If we discover gaps in e=
xisting work, we can always recharter in the future to take on new work, or=
 work with other WGs (or SDOs) to address these gaps, whichever is most app=
ropriate.]

Toerless

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf=
.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.g=
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Comments are inline below marked DAW.









Thanks,


Dave












From: Suit <suit-bounc=
es@ietf.org> on behalf of Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>

Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 5:05 PM

To: suit@ietf.org

Subject: [Suit] suit charter points

 






To repeat my comments on the mike in the BOF:



1. I would like to make sure that the charter allows for the following two =
points to

be defined into the architecture mentioned by the charter, even if not

all devices may be able to support them. IMHO these are mandatory for reall=
y

reliable firmware upgrade and it would be a wasted opportunity to do all th=
is work

and yet only produce results for devices thart will not provide real reliab=
le

ugprade solutions.



a) Ability for automatic downgrade, eg: automatic unless some external veri=
fication of

correct operation of the new firmware has succeeded. Ideally, verification =
of

the new firmware is trial-run download of yet another firmware image or the=


like.. 



b) ability to query the device for capabilities thart will allow to underst=
and

what firmware/signing/etc of a firmware will be accepted by the device.









[DAW: (As chair) The charter does not prevent=
 a resulting solution from supporting these capabilities. If chartered=
, the group will need to discuss this as part of our wo=
rk on the architecture.







(as a participant) I believe there is room for thi=
s proposed working group to develop guidance on why some of these features =
are desirable, and to discuss how the solution may be used to support these=
 features.]




2. Wrt to "new" components: Instead of saying "charter does =
not allow new work XXX"

(XXX =3D transport, serialization etc..). A better rule would be not do som=
ething new unless

evaluation shows that new work is required especially because of footprint =
of existing

solutions being too large for class 1 devices.









[DAW: (as chair) I think we need to do more work i=
n this space before we get to a point where this might even be proven =
true. If we discover gaps in existing work, we can always recharter in the =
future to take on new work, or work with
 other WGs (or SDOs) to address these gaps, whichever is most appropri=
ate.]




Toerless



_______________________________________________

Suit mailing list

Suit@ietf.org

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%=
3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid=
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pMgg%2BgU8fpRi2vXPHy7DaNVpDs9W8%3D&reserved=3D0












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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Robert Moskowitz 
cc: "Dr. Pala" , suit@ietf.org
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Robert Moskowitz  wrote:
    drpala> * Public Crypto. Is there any interest in providing any special
    drpala> considerations for devices that have support for public crypto
    drpala> (e.g., small crypto accelerators - ECDSA-P256/SHA256)? The
    drpala> availability of small crypto chip that allow for secure storage
    drpala> and off-chip crypto ops might benefit from special
    drpala> treatment/considerations... ?

    > Why do you stop at ECDSA? What of ED25519? We can get smaller with
    > that. Is it the job of SUIT to specify this? I feel it might be an
    > barrier to progress rather than a help.

I am very enthusiastic about Ed25519, and I'm pretty sure that whatever
container we use will have the algorithm agility to permit it.

There isn't deployed Ed25519 specific [hw] acceleration out there.
(I've been told that some ECDSA hardware acceleration options will accelerate
both, but I don't have details or first hand knowledge)

I don't believe that Ed25519 has any particular Quantum resistance over
ECDSA; rather it has higher assurance against state actors who may have a
backdoor.

So, if one is going to put a new algorithm into a boot loader, and it might
be in software, then I'd like to have a long-term quantum safe algorithm.

(The NIST competition deadline is the end of the month, and maybe we'll have a
miracle in late 2018 to save our bacon...)

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Robert Moskowitz  wrote:
    > I also think a lot about devices that are on PHYs that do not/can not
    > support IP.

sure, but that's why we have a requirement for multi-blob manifests, so that
the device that has IP (the router the PHY is in?) can collect the blob and
pass it on to the PHY. (whether the PHY has a trusted relationship with the
router, or can validate the blob itself is not in scope)

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
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Hi Toerless,

> a) Ability for automatic downgrade, eg: automatic unless some external ve=
rification of correct operation of the new firmware has succeeded. Ideally,=
 verification of the new firmware is trial-run download of yet another firm=
ware image or the like..

[Hannes] Wouldn't this be an implementation detail?

> b) ability to query the device for capabilities thart will allow to under=
stand what firmware/signing/etc of a firmware will be accepted by the devic=
e.

[Hannes] I am trying to understand what you are trying to design here. Do y=
ou expect the firmware update server to reach out to IoT devices, to ask th=
em for the firmware version being installed, and then send a firmware updat=
e?

Ciao
Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
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any medium. Thank you.


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Jari Arkko , "suit@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Carsten Bormann , "Dr. Pala" 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
Thread-Index: AQHTXFApItURWUU1KEq7pVapJwrIhKMSEjyAgABM5gCAAA5ggIAA/XHQ
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:29:03 +0000
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References: <6437dc89-4706-dcdd-3b7a-f073c44ccfdb@openca.org>   <7507EE90-328A-4D30-BD75-FCED69B906A7@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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From nobody Mon Nov 13 22:42:51 2017
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To: Hannes Tschofenig , Madjid Nakhjiri 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Hannes =E2=80=94 the manufacturer example was just that, an example. I =
definitely agree that we shouldn=E2=80=99t write anything about =
manufacturers or owners! What I=E2=80=99d like to have, however, is a =
recognition that there=E2=80=99s a need to support a bit more expressive =
power in our mechanisms to support some of the cases that can come up. I =
sent some suggested text earlier in this thread, but other text would =
work as well.

Madjid =E2=80=94 I was thinking of the kinds of permission models that =
e.g., the architecture draft (draft-moran-suit-architecture) talks about =
in Section 3.7. That example is from a slightly different use case than =
I had in mind, but it is another example.

Jari




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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
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Thread-Topic: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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From nobody Mon Nov 13 22:48:31 2017
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From: "Dr. Pala" 
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 14:48:15 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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Hi Hannes,

Maybe I am wrong, but I it might not necessarily be true. Could, for 
example, the authentication data be a PKIX detached signature over the 
CBOR blob ?

Cheers,
Max


On 11/14/17 2:29 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Carsten,
>
> It is not just CBOR but also COSE that needs to be implemented.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carsten Bormann
> Sent: 13 November 2017 23:21
> To: Dr. Pala
> Cc: suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
>
> On Nov 13, 2017, at 22:29, Dr. Pala  wrote:
>> Maybe there could be also some space for considering ad-hoc (instead of generic encoding rules) binary formats that can be better understood by device manufacturer (that usually complain about having even a 5-10k enc/dec library... :D).
> Prepare to spend 722 bytes of code for the CBOR decoder library (unless you need floating point data, then it becomes around 800).
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


From nobody Mon Nov 13 22:52:07 2017
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: "Dr. Pala" , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 06:51:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
To: Hannes Tschofenig , Jari Arkko , Madjid Nakhjiri 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 07:03:25 +0000
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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--_000_CY4PR09MB14956551250680822D0F8773F0280CY4PR09MB1495namp_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Given that we are working to post updated charter text in the next couple d=
ays for review, it would be good to hear about any concerns with or support=
 for adding Jari's text to the charter. Please also indicate if you would l=
ike to see adjusted text instead.


Thanks,

Dave


________________________________
From: Suit  on behalf of Hannes Tschofenig 
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 2:47 PM
To: Jari Arkko; Madjid Nakhjiri
Cc: suit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software source=
s and permissions

Hi Jari,

I believe I understand where you are heading with your remarks.

The question to me is whether this is something that has to go into the cha=
rter text or into a document of the group.

Ciao
Hannes


-----Original Message-----
From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net]
Sent: 14 November 2017 14:43
To: Hannes Tschofenig; Madjid Nakhjiri
Cc: suit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software source=
s and permissions

Hannes =97 the manufacturer example was just that, an example. I definitely=
 agree that we shouldn=92t write anything about manufacturers or owners! Wh=
at I=92d like to have, however, is a recognition that there=92s a need to s=
upport a bit more expressive power in our mechanisms to support some of the=
 cases that can come up. I sent some suggested text earlier in this thread,=
 but other text would work as well.

Madjid =97 I was thinking of the kinds of permission models that e.g., the =
architecture draft (draft-moran-suit-architecture) talks about in Section 3=
.7. That example is from a slightly different use case than I had in mind, =
but it is another example.

Jari



IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.
_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
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.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.g=
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--_000_CY4PR09MB14956551250680822D0F8773F0280CY4PR09MB1495namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable










Given that we are working to post updated charter text in the next =
couple days for review, it would be good to hear about any concerns wi=
th or support for adding Jari's text to the charter. Please also indic=
ate if you would like to see adjusted text instead.







Thanks,


Dave












From: Suit <suit-bounc=
es@ietf.org> on behalf of Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.co=
m>

Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2017 2:47 PM

To: Jari Arkko; Madjid Nakhjiri

Cc: suit@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software=
 sources and permissions

 






Hi Jari,



I believe I understand where you are heading with your remarks.



The question to me is whether this is something that has to go into the cha=
rter text or into a document of the group.



Ciao

Hannes





-----Original Message-----

From: Jari Arkko [mailto:jari.arkko=
@piuha.net]

Sent: 14 November 2017 14:43

To: Hannes Tschofenig; Madjid Nakhjiri

Cc: suit@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software source=
s and permissions



Hannes =97 the manufacturer example was just that, an example. I definitely=
 agree that we shouldn=92t write anything about manufacturers or owners! Wh=
at I=92d like to have, however, is a recognition that there=92s a need to s=
upport a bit more expressive power in our
 mechanisms to support some of the cases that can come up. I sent some sugg=
ested text earlier in this thread, but other text would work as well.



Madjid =97 I was thinking of the kinds of permission models that e.g., the =
architecture draft (draft-moran-suit-architecture) talks about in Section 3=
.7. That example is from a slightly different use case than I had in mind, =
but it is another example.



Jari







IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________

Suit mailing list

Suit@ietf.org

https://na01.safelinks.protec=
tion.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fs=
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From: Brendan Moran 
To: "Dr. Pala" 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Question about draft-moran-suit-manifest-00.txt
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From: Brendan Moran 
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
CC: Hannes Tschofenig , Jari Arkko , Madjid Nakhjiri , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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> While I am happy with Jari=E2=80=99s text in principle, I=E2=80=99d =
like to know what he intended by =E2=80=9Csoftware sources=E2=80=9D =
prior to inclusion in the charter text.

I meant the abstract notion of being able to process images that came =
possibly from different entities (e.g., a device is capable of accepting =
a firmware signed by either your IT department or the vendor). I did =
*not* mean software sources in any server, TFTP-server IP address or =
similar sense :-)

Jari


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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Jari Arkko 
cc: Hannes Tschofenig , Madjid Nakhjiri , "suit\@ietf.org" 
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--=-=-=
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Jari Arkko  wrote:
    > Hannes =E2=80=94 the manufacturer example was just that, an example. I
    > definitely agree that we shouldn=E2=80=99t write anything about manuf=
acturers
    > or owners! What I=E2=80=99d like to have, however, is a recognition t=
hat
    > there=E2=80=99s a need to support a bit more expressive power in our =
mechanisms
    > to support some of the cases that can come up. I sent some suggested
    > text earlier in this thread, but other text would work as well.

For instance, a manufacturer might provide ten different images that are
signed.  (Different versions and/or feature sets, or even because the same
valve controller is used in both sewage and building control...)

The operator of the building/sewage system might get to select among them.

Then iterate (recursive really) for the fact that the we might have a
compound device which contains many such valves in different configurations,
requiring different feature sets within the same manifest.

=2D-
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From: Madjid Nakhjiri 
To: Jari Arkko , Hannes Tschofenig , Madjid Nakhjiri 
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-topic: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Hi Jari,=20

Ok. Thanks for pointing me to the permissions in the architecture draft.
Some the permissions are fuzzy to me, e.g. Approve or qualify. Are we
expecting that level of complexity? Approve but not apply? I could think
of say store but not apply (install) yet, which could be solved with some
timing information in the metadata.

These permissions are making the job of a update manager module (sorry for
the invented term) much more complex. I personally would think of a
permission system as policies that allows device HW/SW to perform or
reject some actions requested by a requestor. Examples: install, execute,
etc. Implementing multiple signatures (e.g. from both code author and
device operator) would be straight forward, as a signature would
implicitly mean approval.

What use case did you have in  mind?

Hannes, I guess more description on the permissions would clarify this
better.



Regards,
Madjid Nakhjiri,=20
Sr. Director, ARTIK Security Architect




On 11/13/17, 10:42 PM, "Jari Arkko"  wrote:

>Hannes =8B the manufacturer example was just that, an example. I definitel=
y
>agree that we shouldn=B9t write anything about manufacturers or owners!
>What I=B9d like to have, however, is a recognition that there=B9s a need t=
o
>support a bit more expressive power in our mechanisms to support some of
>the cases that can come up. I sent some suggested text earlier in this
>thread, but other text would work as well.
>
>Madjid =8B I was thinking of the kinds of permission models that e.g., the
>architecture draft (draft-moran-suit-architecture) talks about in Section
>3.7. That example is from a slightly different use case than I had in
>mind, but it is another example.
>
>Jari
>
>
>
>


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Jari Arkko , Brendan Moran 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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From nobody Tue Nov 14 15:57:28 2017
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 00:57:19 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert 
To: Michael Richardson 
Cc: Jari Arkko , Madjid Nakhjiri , Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" 
Message-ID: <20171114235719.GG19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Client<->controller connection. Allow initiation from either side,
individual client device (classes) may support only one direction.

Controller retrieves necessary information from device to make decision
what firmware to use on device. Tells device what firmware to use. URL
or direct download.

As soon as you start trying to embed firmware selection decision mechanisms
into the device itself, you've just created IMHO another dead end solution.

If you do not automate retrieval of all decision parameters that can be
automated, you are wasting money and reliability into manual processes.

Not all automated information retrieval needs to be from device itself,
a lot could be in manufacturing databases, but if you can not guarantee
that the decision maker can reliably automatically retrieve it, a protocol
with the device itself should provide this information.

yada yada yada. This is the type of architectural outline stuff i would love
to see in a firmware download RFC.


On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 02:00:33PM -0500, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Jari Arkko  wrote:
>     > Hannes ??? the manufacturer example was just that, an example. I
>     > definitely agree that we shouldn???t write anything about manufacturers
>     > or owners! What I???d like to have, however, is a recognition that
>     > there???s a need to support a bit more expressive power in our mechanisms
>     > to support some of the cases that can come up. I sent some suggested
>     > text earlier in this thread, but other text would work as well.
> 
> For instance, a manufacturer might provide ten different images that are
> signed.  (Different versions and/or feature sets, or even because the same
> valve controller is used in both sewage and building control...)
> 
> The operator of the building/sewage system might get to select among them.
> 
> Then iterate (recursive really) for the fact that the we might have a
> compound device which contains many such valves in different configurations,
> requiring different feature sets within the same manifest.
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 



> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: Madjid Nakhjiri 
To: Michael Richardson , Jari Arkko 
Cc: Madjid Nakhjiri , Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-topic: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Is this an example for permissions? Or a use case for multiple signatures?

 why can=B9t sewage versus building control information be included in
metadata (manifest) of the image? The devices come with model numbers and
the device configuration would know based on the metadata whether it
should install a package or not. Plus, I would think the device would be
notified that an update is available and then it goes and pulls the
update. Rather than a distribution server just blasts data to all devices
(sewage or building  and it is up to each device to figure out whether it
is the target for an image or not. I am not sure if that is the most
efficient way to handle network bandwidth or device battery/ bandwidth.



Regards,
Madjid Nakhjiri,=20
Sr. Director, ARTIK Security Architect




On 11/14/17, 11:00 AM, "Suit on behalf of Michael Richardson"
 wrote:

>
>Jari Arkko  wrote:
>    > Hannes =8B the manufacturer example was just that, an example. I
>    > definitely agree that we shouldn=B9t write anything about
>manufacturers
>    > or owners! What I=B9d like to have, however, is a recognition that
>    > there=B9s a need to support a bit more expressive power in our
>mechanisms
>    > to support some of the cases that can come up. I sent some suggested
>    > text earlier in this thread, but other text would work as well.
>
>For instance, a manufacturer might provide ten different images that are
>signed.  (Different versions and/or feature sets, or even because the same
>valve controller is used in both sewage and building control...)
>
>The operator of the building/sewage system might get to select among them.
>
>Then iterate (recursive really) for the fact that the we might have a
>compound device which contains many such valves in different
>configurations,
>requiring different feature sets within the same manifest.
>
>--
>Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>


From nobody Wed Nov 15 09:16:17 2017
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From: "David A. Wheeler" 
To: "suit" 
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 12:16:11 -0500 (EST)
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Archived-At: 
Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to N=
OT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner
should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler


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From: Madjid Nakhjiri 
To: Brendan Moran , Jari Arkko 
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-topic: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Follow-up re: my comment on charter and software sources and permissions
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Hi Brendan,=20

Sorry for jumping in. to me =B3Author=B2 has more to do with the source
(signing), whereas =B3 authority=B2 has more to do with the operations:
distribution server the image came from, or polled the device to go fetch
the update (e.g. Device management operator). So depends on what you want
to mean!!
Still, I have a hard time to see how some of the permissions are enforced.


Regards,
Madjid Nakhjiri,=20
Sr. Director, ARTIK Security Architect




On 11/14/17, 3:11 AM, "Suit on behalf of Brendan Moran"
 wrote:

>> On 14 Nov 2017, at 10:16, Jari Arkko  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> While I am happy with Jari=B9s text in principle, I=B9d like to know wh=
at
>>>he intended by =B3software sources=B2 prior to inclusion in the charter
>>>text.
>>
>> I meant the abstract notion of being able to process images that came
>>possibly from different entities (e.g., a device is capable of accepting
>>a firmware signed by either your IT department or the vendor). I did
>>*not* mean software sources in any server, TFTP-server IP address or
>>similar sense :-)
>>
>> Jari
>
>Hi Jari,
>That is what I suspected. Would it be alright to change the phrasing to
>either of these so it=B9s a bit more clear?
>
>> "The format is expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of
>>diverse update authorities and permission models."
>OR
>> "The format is expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of
>>diverse update authors and permission models."
>
>Best Regards,
>Brendan
>IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
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>contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy
>the information in any medium. Thank you.
>_______________________________________________
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>Suit@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


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From: Madjid Nakhjiri 
To: Michael Richardson , Madjid Nakhjiri 
Cc: Russ Housley , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-topic: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Hi Michael,

So SHA-256 is just the hash, but I was referring to the signature
algorithm (Lamport, Diffie,
Winternitz, and Merkle (LDWM)) that requires its own public/private key
pair. So I need to use LDWM private key to sign and public key to verify?
The questions are: 1) is LDWM quantum resistant? And more importantly 2)
and 3) here
2) Is there an HSM out there today that hosts a LDWM private key signing
storage and operation?
3) Do I have accelerate the LDWM public key verification or just run it in
SW? And in the latter case, which crypto libraries support LDWM?

If I am going to go to my implementer and ask to implement this, there is
little implementation guidance..

Regards,
Madjid Nakhjiri,=20
Sr. Director, ARTIK Security Architect




On 11/11/17, 9:47 AM, "Michael Richardson"  wrote:

>
>Madjid Nakhjiri  wrote:
>    > Has been a long time. Are there SOCs out there with quantum
>resistant
>    > signature algorithm support?
>
>As Carsten said, we can run SHA256-based merkle-tree algorithms today.
>
>There are some quantum resistant asymmetric methods which are being
>development (NIST is having a competition I think), but my understanding
>that
>none have the confidence we need, and there are IPR on some of them.
>
>So, I think that I agree strongly with Russ.
>
>Russ said:
>    >> If we do not deploy a quantum-resistant signature algorithm now,
>then
>    >> we will not be able to trust the signature on the firmware that
>    >> deploys the next generation of cryptographic algorithm after a
>    >> large-scale quantum computer gets invented.  We need to deploy this
>    >> protection now.  We will not get enough notice to roll it out
>later.
>    >> Look how long it too to transition away from SHA-1.
>
>
>--
>Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>


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From: Madjid Nakhjiri 
To: Carsten Bormann , Madjid Nakhjiri 
Cc: Russ Housley , Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-topic: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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References: <21176.1510325360@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <74B896C8-2C93-4AEB-9508-69E8CE5CB7CE@vigilsec.com> <8387.1510337691@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <6FFC42C7-5049-432B-B608-598D2596B3A2@vigilsec.com>  
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Hi Carsten=20

As I mentioned in my other email. Regarding, it is not just the
verification, it is also secure signing and HSM support.
Regarding verification, it won=B9t just happen on the occasional firmware
update. If you need to build the entire stack based on this update, then
it will need to happen every time you boot up.


Regards,
Madjid Nakhjiri,=20
Sr. Director, ARTIK Security Architect




On 11/11/17, 5:19 AM, "Carsten Bormann"  wrote:

>On Nov 11, 2017, at 06:55, Madjid Nakhjiri  wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Russ,=20
>>=20
>> Has been a long time. Are there SOCs out there with quantum resistant
>> signature algorithm support?
>
>All of them do support verifying Merkle-tree signatures (as long as they
>can run programs).
>
>draft-mcgrew-hash-sigs-07 is based on SHA-256, which you can either run
>in CPU code or may have hardware support for.  Since firmware upgrades
>don=B9t happen every second, the overhead for that should be negligible
>(and is dominated by computing the hash of the firmware itself, anyway).
>
>Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten
>
>


From nobody Wed Nov 15 13:57:08 2017
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To: suit@ietf.org
References: 
From: "Dr. Pala" 
Organization: OpenCA Labs
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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--------------ms090506090908090201020006
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 boundary="------------3C27B2A5740E25F033A96E0F"
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Hi David, all,

this is a really good point... but I think there might be some=20
considerations that could complicate this view. For example, what are=20
the considerations about the fact that if you decide not to upgrade=20
(BTW, the majority of people who owns IoT would probably not even know=20
what a firmware upgrade is...) and your device gets hacked and used to=20
participate in botnets or to attack other devices in your own home=20
network ? Even if the light bulb that was compromised does not have=20
access/collect sensitive information per se, other devices connected to=20
your network might. To make it all more scary, think about when you have =

some medical devices that are connected to your network (e.g., patient=20
monitoring, etc.) that might be targeted via smaller / not updated=20
devices...

IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large number of=20
devices with (most of the time) IP capabilities can be really dangerous=20
because they can be used as botnet and gateways to deploy more=20
sophisticated attacks. If we do not mandate for automatic upgrades that=20
would (besides functional upgrades) fix security issues, the situation=20
might be quite eerie.

This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully so!) in control=20
of her own devices... so, what do we do ?

I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be the=20
possibility do distinguish between devices that have User Interfaces=20
(UIs) that the user can use to accept or deny updates and devices that=20
do not.

Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how annoyed=20
would you be if you had to accept/reject updates for all your=20
home-installed IoTs (20 light bulbs) or, even worst, for all your=20
work-installed IoTs (50k smart light bulbs) ?

If we take, for example, the situation today with OS updates/upgrades,=20
we see that the vast vast vast majority of installations do leverage the =

deployment of automatic updates nevertheless the possibility for the=20
user to opt-out.

Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to suggest using an =

update-by-default policies and for devices that might have a UI (or a=20
controller that can more easily interact with the user) to provide the=20
possibility to (a) follow the same policy by accepting automatic=20
updates, or (b) allow the user to confirm/reject every update, or (c)=20
allow the user to automatically reject (dangerous) any updates.

What do you think ?

Cheers,
Max


On 11/16/17 1:16 AM, David A. Wheeler wrote:
> I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able =
to NOT update software.
>
> In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
> internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.
>
> But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
> There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
> increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/own=
er
> should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --- David A. Wheeler

--=20
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
OpenCA Logo

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Hi David, all,

    
this is a really good point... but I think there might be some
      considerations that could complicate this view. For example, what
      are the considerations about the fact that if you decide not to
      upgrade (BTW, the majority of people who owns IoT would probably
      not even know what a firmware upgrade is...) and your device gets
      hacked and used to participate in botnets or to attack other
      devices in your own home network ? Even if the light bulb that was
      compromised does not have access/collect sensitive information per
      se, other devices connected to your network might. To make it all
      more scary, think about when you have some medical devices that
      are connected to your network (e.g., patient monitoring, etc.)
      that might be targeted via smaller / not updated devices...

    

    
IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large number
      of devices with (most of the time) IP capabilities can be really
      dangerous because they can be used as botnet and gateways to
      deploy more sophisticated attacks. If we do not mandate for
      automatic upgrades that would (besides functional upgrades) fix
      security issues, the situation might be quite eerie.

    

    
This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully so!) in
      control of her own devices... so, what do we do ?

    
I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be the
      possibility do distinguish between devices that have User
      Interfaces (UIs) that the user can use to accept or deny updates
      and devices that do not.

    
Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how
      annoyed would you be if you had to accept/reject updates for all
      your home-installed IoTs (20 light bulbs) or, even worst, for all
      your work-installed IoTs (50k smart light bulbs) ?

    

    
If we take, for example, the situation today with OS
      updates/upgrades, we see that the vast vast vast majority of
      installations do leverage the deployment of automatic updates
      nevertheless the possibility for the user to opt-out.

    
Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to suggest
      using an update-by-default policies and for devices that might
      have a UI (or a controller that can more easily interact with the
      user) to provide the possibility to (a) follow the same policy by
      accepting automatic updates, or (b) allow the user to
      confirm/reject every update, or (c) allow the user to
      automatically reject (dangerous) any updates.

    
What do you think ?

    
Cheers,

      Max

    

    

    
On 11/16/17 1:16 AM, David A. Wheeler
      wrote:

    

    

      
I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-=
users MUST be able to NOT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner=

should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler


    

    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        3D"OpenCA

      

    

  


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From: "Dr. Pala" 
Organization: OpenCA Labs
Message-ID: <3b157673-23d9-d804-86c4-c6b51a56b040@openca.org>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 06:02:17 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Hi Madjid,


On 11/16/17 1:43 AM, Madjid Nakhjiri wrote:
> [...]
> Regarding verification, it won=C2=B9t just happen on the occasional fir=
mware
> update. If you need to build the entire stack based on this update, the=
n
> it will need to happen every time you boot up.
Not necessarily. In particular, after the firmware is verified for=20
installation, the device could use simpler mechanisms (e.g., HMAC w/ a=20
device-specific secret - hopefully HW protected like we have in many=20
chips today) to quickly validate that the image has not changed across=20
boots (that is actually all is needed after the initial validation has=20
occurred during "installation").

Cheers,
Max


--=20
Best Regards,
Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
OpenCA Labs Director
OpenCA Logo

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--------------C62566F140B7A167F62CEE93
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Hi Madjid,

    

    
On 11/16/17 1:43 AM, Madjid Nakhjiri
      wrote:

    

    

      
[...]
Regarding verification, it won=C2=B9t just happen on the occasional firmw=
are
update. If you need to build the entire stack based on this update, then
it will need to happen every time you boot up.


    

    Not necessarily. In particular, after the firmware is verified for
    installation, the device could use simpler mechanisms (e.g., HMAC w/
    a device-specific secret - hopefully HW protected like we have in
    many chips today) to quickly validate that the image has not changed
    across boots (that is actually all is needed after the initial
    validation has occurred during "installation").

    

    Cheers,

    Max

    

    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        3D"OpenCA

      

    

  


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From: Thomas Eichinger 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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Hi Max,

An earlier comment of mine was that updates should clearly be marked as secu=
rity or feature updates (more fine grained differentiation would be possible=
) and ideally both should be mutually exclusive.=20

This way, with the proper management tools at hand, a user can decide to sti=
ll allow security updates being deployed automatically while being able to r=
eview others before consenting to install the updates.=20

Best,=20
Thomas=20

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Dr. Pala  wrote:
>=20
> Hi David, all,
>=20
> this is a really good point... but I think there might be some considerati=
ons that could complicate this view. For example, what are the consideration=
s about the fact that if you decide not to upgrade (BTW, the majority of peo=
ple who owns IoT would probably not even know what a firmware upgrade is...)=
 and your device gets hacked and used to participate in botnets or to attack=
 other devices in your own home network ? Even if the light bulb that was co=
mpromised does not have access/collect sensitive information per se, other d=
evices connected to your network might. To make it all more scary, think abo=
ut when you have some medical devices that are connected to your network (e.=
g., patient monitoring, etc.) that might be targeted via smaller / not updat=
ed devices...
> IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large number of device=
s with (most of the time) IP capabilities can be really dangerous because th=
ey can be used as botnet and gateways to deploy more sophisticated attacks. I=
f we do not mandate for automatic upgrades that would (besides functional up=
grades) fix security issues, the situation might be quite eerie.
> This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully so!) in control of=
 her own devices... so, what do we do ?
>=20
> I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be the possibilit=
y do distinguish between devices that have User Interfaces (UIs) that the us=
er can use to accept or deny updates and devices that do not.
>=20
> Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how annoyed would y=
ou be if you had to accept/reject updates for all your home-installed IoTs (=
20 light bulbs) or, even worst, for all your work-installed IoTs (50k smart l=
ight bulbs) ?
> If we take, for example, the situation today with OS updates/upgrades, we s=
ee that the vast vast vast majority of installations do leverage the deploym=
ent of automatic updates nevertheless the possibility for the user to opt-ou=
t.
>=20
> Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to suggest using an u=
pdate-by-default policies and for devices that might have a UI (or a control=
ler that can more easily interact with the user) to provide the possibility t=
o (a) follow the same policy by accepting automatic updates, or (b) allow th=
e user to confirm/reject every update, or (c) allow the user to automaticall=
y reject (dangerous) any updates.
>=20
> What do you think ?
>=20
> Cheers,
> Max
>=20
>> On 11/16/17 1:16 AM, David A. Wheeler wrote:
>> I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to=
 NOT update software.
>>=20
>> In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
>> internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.
>>=20
>> But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
>> There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
>> increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner=

>> should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.
>>=20
>> Thanks.
>>=20
>> --- David A. Wheeler
>=20
> --=20
> Best Regards,
> Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
> OpenCA Labs Director
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

--Apple-Mail-CCD2631B-4232-484E-90AE-02D24C8991F1
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Hi Max,

An earlier comment of mine was that updates should clearly be marked as security or feature updates (more fine grained differentiation would be possible) and ideally both should be mutually exclusive. 

This way, with the proper management tools at hand, a user can decide to still allow security updates being deployed automatically while being able to review others before consenting to install the updates. 

Best, 
Thomas 

On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Dr. Pala <director@openca.org> wrote:


  
    
  
  
    
Hi David, all,

    
this is a really good point... but I think there might be some
      considerations that could complicate this view. For example, what
      are the considerations about the fact that if you decide not to
      upgrade (BTW, the majority of people who owns IoT would probably
      not even know what a firmware upgrade is...) and your device gets
      hacked and used to participate in botnets or to attack other
      devices in your own home network ? Even if the light bulb that was
      compromised does not have access/collect sensitive information per
      se, other devices connected to your network might. To make it all
      more scary, think about when you have some medical devices that
      are connected to your network (e.g., patient monitoring, etc.)
      that might be targeted via smaller / not updated devices...

    

    
IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large number
      of devices with (most of the time) IP capabilities can be really
      dangerous because they can be used as botnet and gateways to
      deploy more sophisticated attacks. If we do not mandate for
      automatic upgrades that would (besides functional upgrades) fix
      security issues, the situation might be quite eerie.

    

    
This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully so!) in
      control of her own devices... so, what do we do ?

    
I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be the
      possibility do distinguish between devices that have User
      Interfaces (UIs) that the user can use to accept or deny updates
      and devices that do not.

    
Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how
      annoyed would you be if you had to accept/reject updates for all
      your home-installed IoTs (20 light bulbs) or, even worst, for all
      your work-installed IoTs (50k smart light bulbs) ?

    

    
If we take, for example, the situation today with OS
      updates/upgrades, we see that the vast vast vast majority of
      installations do leverage the deployment of automatic updates
      nevertheless the possibility for the user to opt-out.

    
Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to suggest
      using an update-by-default policies and for devices that might
      have a UI (or a controller that can more easily interact with the
      user) to provide the possibility to (a) follow the same policy by
      accepting automatic updates, or (b) allow the user to
      confirm/reject every update, or (c) allow the user to
      automatically reject (dangerous) any updates.

    
What do you think ?

    
Cheers,

      Max

    

    

    
On 11/16/17 1:16 AM, David A. Wheeler
      wrote:

    

    

      
I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to NOT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner
should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler


    

    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        <njjfjnmliggaogck.png>

      

    

  


_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

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From: Justin Cappos 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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What about a model where you can elect to either choose to manage the
application of updates yourself or let it be managed by the manufacturer?

It seems the consumer is in the best position to choose and understand what
works best for them.

Justin

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Thomas Eichinger 
wrote:

> Hi Max,
>
> An earlier comment of mine was that updates should clearly be marked as
> security or feature updates (more fine grained differentiation would be
> possible) and ideally both should be mutually exclusive.
>
> This way, with the proper management tools at hand, a user can decide to
> still allow security updates being deployed automatically while being able
> to review others before consenting to install the updates.
>
> Best,
> Thomas
>
> On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Dr. Pala  wrote:
>
> Hi David, all,
>
> this is a really good point... but I think there might be some
> considerations that could complicate this view. For example, what are the
> considerations about the fact that if you decide not to upgrade (BTW, the
> majority of people who owns IoT would probably not even know what a
> firmware upgrade is...) and your device gets hacked and used to participate
> in botnets or to attack other devices in your own home network ? Even if
> the light bulb that was compromised does not have access/collect sensitive
> information per se, other devices connected to your network might. To make
> it all more scary, think about when you have some medical devices that are
> connected to your network (e.g., patient monitoring, etc.) that might be
> targeted via smaller / not updated devices...
>
> IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large number of
> devices with (most of the time) IP capabilities can be really dangerous
> because they can be used as botnet and gateways to deploy more
> sophisticated attacks. If we do not mandate for automatic upgrades that
> would (besides functional upgrades) fix security issues, the situation
> might be quite eerie.
>
> This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully so!) in control of
> her own devices... so, what do we do ?
>
> I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be the
> possibility do distinguish between devices that have User Interfaces (UIs)
> that the user can use to accept or deny updates and devices that do not.
>
> Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how annoyed would
> you be if you had to accept/reject updates for all your home-installed IoTs
> (20 light bulbs) or, even worst, for all your work-installed IoTs (50k
> smart light bulbs) ?
>
> If we take, for example, the situation today with OS updates/upgrades, we
> see that the vast vast vast majority of installations do leverage the
> deployment of automatic updates nevertheless the possibility for the user
> to opt-out.
>
> Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to suggest using an
> update-by-default policies and for devices that might have a UI (or a
> controller that can more easily interact with the user) to provide the
> possibility to (a) follow the same policy by accepting automatic updates,
> or (b) allow the user to confirm/reject every update, or (c) allow the user
> to automatically reject (dangerous) any updates.
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Cheers,
> Max
>
> On 11/16/17 1:16 AM, David A. Wheeler wrote:
>
> I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to NOT update software.
>
> In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
> internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.
>
> But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
> There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
> increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner
> should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --- David A. Wheeler
>
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.
> OpenCA Labs Director
> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>
>

--94eb2c08025411e2ec055e0cf965
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


What about a model where you can elect to either choose to=
 manage the application of updates yourself or let it be managed by the man=
ufacturer?=C2=A0=C2=A0

It seems the consumer is in the b=
est position to choose and understand what works best for them.
<=
br>
Justin

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Thomas Eichinger <thoma=
s@riot-os.org> wrote:
Hi Max,

An earlier co=
mment of mine was that updates should clearly be marked as security or feat=
ure updates (more fine grained differentiation would be possible) and ideal=
ly both should be mutually exclusive.=C2=A0

This w=
ay, with the proper management tools at hand, a user can decide to still al=
low security updates being deployed automatically while being able to revie=
w others before consenting to install the updates.=C2=A0

Best,=C2=A0
Thomas=C2=A0
=

On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Dr. Pala <director@openca.org> wrote:


 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
    
Hi David, all,

    
this is a really good point... but I think there might be some
      considerations that could complicate this view. For example, what
      are the considerations about the fact that if you decide not to
      upgrade (BTW, the majority of people who owns IoT would probably
      not even know what a firmware upgrade is...) and your device gets
      hacked and used to participate in botnets or to attack other
      devices in your own home network ? Even if the light bulb that was
      compromised does not have access/collect sensitive information per
      se, other devices connected to your network might. To make it all
      more scary, think about when you have some medical devices that
      are connected to your network (e.g., patient monitoring, etc.)
      that might be targeted via smaller / not updated devices...

    

    
IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large number
      of devices with (most of the time) IP capabilities can be really
      dangerous because they can be used as botnet and gateways to
      deploy more sophisticated attacks. If we do not mandate for
      automatic upgrades that would (besides functional upgrades) fix
      security issues, the situation might be quite eerie.

    

    
This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully so!) in
      control of her own devices... so, what do we do ?

    
I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be the
      possibility do distinguish between devices that have User
      Interfaces (UIs) that the user can use to accept or deny updates
      and devices that do not.

    
Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how
      annoyed would you be if you had to accept/reject updates for all
      your home-installed IoTs (20 light bulbs) or, even worst, for all
      your work-installed IoTs (50k smart light bulbs) ?

    

    
If we take, for example, the situation today with OS
      updates/upgrades, we see that the vast vast vast majority of
      installations do leverage the deployment of automatic updates
      nevertheless the possibility for the user to opt-out.

    
Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to suggest
      using an update-by-default policies and for devices that might
      have a UI (or a controller that can more easily interact with the
      user) to provide the possibility to (a) follow the same policy by
      accepting automatic updates, or (b) allow the user to
      confirm/reject every update, or (c) allow the user to
      automatically reject (dangerous) any updates.

    
What do you think ?

    
Cheers,

      Max

    

    

    
On 11/16/17 1:16 A=
M, David A. Wheeler
      wrote:

    

    

      
I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST b=
e able to NOT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner
should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler


    

    

    
-- 

      

        Best Regards,
        

          Massimiliano Pala, Ph.D.

          OpenCA Labs Director

        

        <njjfjnmliggaogck.png>

      

    

 =20


__=
_____________________________________________
Suit mai=
ling list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/suit

__________________=
_____________________________

Suit mailing list

Suit@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit





--94eb2c08025411e2ec055e0cf965--


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To: suit@ietf.org
References:  <7de914f2-b82a-9ca3-5f3f-f158a10e4dc9@openca.org> 
From: "Dr. Pala" 
Message-ID: 
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Hi Thomas,

initially I was thinking something along those same lines, but my 
personal experience with manufacturer/vendors (M/F) is that even that 
level of sophistication might be a bit too much if we go all the way 
down to security vs. feature (or more fine grained) differentiation.

Maybe a possible solution would be to have some flags that mark the 
update as containing (but not in a mutually exclusively fashion) a 
security-related fix indicator (i.e., maybe a simple flag in the 
manifest ?). I would be supportive of that idea, but I think that 
something more complicated could hinder the adoption by M/F.

AFTER we manage to have a solution out there that is adopted and that 
IoTs M/F can build their experience on (and for this, I would stress the 
need to keep any initial proposal/solution as simple as possible... but 
not simpler :D), we might extend the model and propose optional features 
(that inevitably will complicate the whole lifetime and management of 
firmware updates) that build on top of the initial work.

Would do you think ? Would this be a good path ?

Cheers,
Max


On 11/16/17 6:11 AM, Thomas Eichinger wrote:
> Hi Max,
>
> An earlier comment of mine was that updates should clearly be marked 
> as security or feature updates (more fine grained differentiation 
> would be possible) and ideally both should be mutually exclusive.
>
> This way, with the proper management tools at hand, a user can decide 
> to still allow security updates being deployed automatically while 
> being able to review others before consenting to install the updates.
>
> Best,
> Thomas
>
> On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Dr. Pala  > wrote:
>
>> Hi David, all,
>>
>> this is a really good point... but I think there might be some 
>> considerations that could complicate this view. For example, what are 
>> the considerations about the fact that if you decide not to upgrade 
>> (BTW, the majority of people who owns IoT would probably not even 
>> know what a firmware upgrade is...) and your device gets hacked and 
>> used to participate in botnets or to attack other devices in your own 
>> home network ? Even if the light bulb that was compromised does not 
>> have access/collect sensitive information per se, other devices 
>> connected to your network might. To make it all more scary, think 
>> about when you have some medical devices that are connected to your 
>> network (e.g., patient monitoring, etc.) that might be targeted via 
>> smaller / not updated devices...
>>
>> IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large number of 
>> devices with (most of the time) IP capabilities can be really 
>> dangerous because they can be used as botnet and gateways to deploy 
>> more sophisticated attacks. If we do not mandate for automatic 
>> upgrades that would (besides functional upgrades) fix security 
>> issues, the situation might be quite eerie.
>>
>> This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully so!) in 
>> control of her own devices... so, what do we do ?
>>
>> I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be the 
>> possibility do distinguish between devices that have User Interfaces 
>> (UIs) that the user can use to accept or deny updates and devices 
>> that do not.
>>
>> Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how annoyed 
>> would you be if you had to accept/reject updates for all your 
>> home-installed IoTs (20 light bulbs) or, even worst, for all your 
>> work-installed IoTs (50k smart light bulbs) ?
>>
>> If we take, for example, the situation today with OS 
>> updates/upgrades, we see that the vast vast vast majority of 
>> installations do leverage the deployment of automatic updates 
>> nevertheless the possibility for the user to opt-out.
>>
>> Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to suggest using 
>> an update-by-default policies and for devices that might have a UI 
>> (or a controller that can more easily interact with the user) to 
>> provide the possibility to (a) follow the same policy by accepting 
>> automatic updates, or (b) allow the user to confirm/reject every 
>> update, or (c) allow the user to automatically reject (dangerous) any 
>> updates.
>>
>> What do you think ?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Max
>>
>>
>> On 11/16/17 1:16 AM, David A. Wheeler wrote:
>>> I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to NOT update software.
>>>
>>> In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
>>> internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.
>>>
>>> But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
>>> There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
>>> increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner
>>> should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> --- David A. Wheeler
>>


--------------2E431705C804608613080DB5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    
Hi Thomas,

    
initially I was thinking something along those same lines, but my
      personal experience with manufacturer/vendors (M/F) is that even
      that level of sophistication might be a bit too much if we go all
      the way down to security vs. feature (or more fine grained)
      differentiation.

    
Maybe a possible solution would be to have some flags that mark
      the update as containing (but not in a mutually exclusively
      fashion) a security-related fix indicator (i.e., maybe a simple
      flag in the manifest ?). I would be supportive of that idea, but I
      think that something more complicated could hinder the adoption by
      M/F.

    
AFTER we manage to have a solution out there that is adopted and
      that IoTs M/F can build their experience on (and for this, I would
      stress the need to keep any initial proposal/solution as simple as
      possible... but not simpler :D), we might extend the model and
      propose optional features (that inevitably will complicate the
      whole lifetime and management of firmware updates) that build on
      top of the initial work.

    

    
Would do you think ? Would this be a good path ?

    

    
Cheers,

      Max

    

    

    
On 11/16/17 6:11 AM, Thomas Eichinger
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
Hi Max,

      


      

      
An earlier comment of mine was that updates should clearly be
        marked as security or feature updates (more fine grained
        differentiation would be possible) and ideally both should be
        mutually exclusive. 

      


      

      
This way, with the proper management tools at hand, a user
        can decide to still allow security updates being deployed
        automatically while being able to review others before
        consenting to install the updates. 

      


      

      
Best, 

      
Thomas 

      


        On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Dr. Pala <director@openca.org>
        wrote:

        

      

      

        

          
          
Hi David, all,

          
this is a really good point... but I think there might be
            some considerations that could complicate this view. For
            example, what are the considerations about the fact that if
            you decide not to upgrade (BTW, the majority of people who
            owns IoT would probably not even know what a firmware
            upgrade is...) and your device gets hacked and used to
            participate in botnets or to attack other devices in your
            own home network ? Even if the light bulb that was
            compromised does not have access/collect sensitive
            information per se, other devices connected to your network
            might. To make it all more scary, think about when you have
            some medical devices that are connected to your network
            (e.g., patient monitoring, etc.) that might be targeted via
            smaller / not updated devices...

          

          
IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large
            number of devices with (most of the time) IP capabilities
            can be really dangerous because they can be used as botnet
            and gateways to deploy more sophisticated attacks. If we do
            not mandate for automatic upgrades that would (besides
            functional upgrades) fix security issues, the situation
            might be quite eerie.

          

          
This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully
            so!) in control of her own devices... so, what do we do ?

          
I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be
            the possibility do distinguish between devices that have
            User Interfaces (UIs) that the user can use to accept or
            deny updates and devices that do not.

          
Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how
            annoyed would you be if you had to accept/reject updates for
            all your home-installed IoTs (20 light bulbs) or, even
            worst, for all your work-installed IoTs (50k smart light
            bulbs) ?

          

          
If we take, for example, the situation today with OS
            updates/upgrades, we see that the vast vast vast majority of
            installations do leverage the deployment of automatic
            updates nevertheless the possibility for the user to
            opt-out.

          
Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to
            suggest using an update-by-default policies and for devices
            that might have a UI (or a controller that can more easily
            interact with the user) to provide the possibility to (a)
            follow the same policy by accepting automatic updates, or
            (b) allow the user to confirm/reject every update, or (c)
            allow the user to automatically reject (dangerous) any
            updates.

          
What do you think ?

          
Cheers,

            Max

          

          

          
On 11/16/17 1:16 AM, David A.
            Wheeler wrote:

          

          

            
I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to NOT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner
should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler


          

          

        

      

    

    

  


--------------2E431705C804608613080DB5--


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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 00:47:41 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert 
To: "Dr. Pala" 
Cc: suit@ietf.org
Message-ID: <20171115234741.GV19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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It would be nice to have a solution layer that is independent of
the interfaces supported by the device. button... display/more-buttons,
audio, GUI, holo-projector,... there is just way too much diverstiy
to be fair in any solution if we assume a specific one. And most
devices will only have some four-digit number printed on the product
label as the only interface anyhow (in support of initial authentication
happening via some other interface and the cloud).

One way we could think about defining the update experience in an
IETF compatible and IMHO even (gasp!) useful way is to think
that every device has a "cloud-based" device management service.
The management service would include the aspects of interest to us,
eg: establish device ownership, review, observe, control upgrade/downgrade,
etc. pp.

We could then define this cloud device management service as a yang
model and say it must be supported via restconf. Then we would have a standard
interfac on which even third parties could build all type software
supporting te variety of possible HW interfaces mentined above. The
most simple example of course is that this would enable the
"one-fits-all" app for the usrs smartphone that allows it now to control
all the IoT devices in the home, because they are all controlled via
the same yang model based cloud interface.

On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 06:30:19AM +0800, Dr. Pala wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
> 
> initially I was thinking something along those same lines, but my
> personal experience with manufacturer/vendors (M/F) is that even
> that level of sophistication might be a bit too much if we go all
> the way down to security vs. feature (or more fine grained)
> differentiation.
> 
> Maybe a possible solution would be to have some flags that mark the
> update as containing (but not in a mutually exclusively fashion) a
> security-related fix indicator (i.e., maybe a simple flag in the
> manifest ?). I would be supportive of that idea, but I think that
> something more complicated could hinder the adoption by M/F.
> 
> AFTER we manage to have a solution out there that is adopted and
> that IoTs M/F can build their experience on (and for this, I would
> stress the need to keep any initial proposal/solution as simple as
> possible... but not simpler :D), we might extend the model and
> propose optional features (that inevitably will complicate the whole
> lifetime and management of firmware updates) that build on top of
> the initial work.
> 
> Would do you think ? Would this be a good path ?
> 
> Cheers,
> Max
> 
> 
> On 11/16/17 6:11 AM, Thomas Eichinger wrote:
> >Hi Max,
> >
> >An earlier comment of mine was that updates should clearly be
> >marked as security or feature updates (more fine grained
> >differentiation would be possible) and ideally both should be
> >mutually exclusive.
> >
> >This way, with the proper management tools at hand, a user can
> >decide to still allow security updates being deployed
> >automatically while being able to review others before consenting
> >to install the updates.
> >
> >Best,
> >Thomas
> >
> >On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:57 PM, Dr. Pala  >> wrote:
> >
> >>Hi David, all,
> >>
> >>this is a really good point... but I think there might be some
> >>considerations that could complicate this view. For example,
> >>what are the considerations about the fact that if you decide
> >>not to upgrade (BTW, the majority of people who owns IoT would
> >>probably not even know what a firmware upgrade is...) and your
> >>device gets hacked and used to participate in botnets or to
> >>attack other devices in your own home network ? Even if the
> >>light bulb that was compromised does not have access/collect
> >>sensitive information per se, other devices connected to your
> >>network might. To make it all more scary, think about when you
> >>have some medical devices that are connected to your network
> >>(e.g., patient monitoring, etc.) that might be targeted via
> >>smaller / not updated devices...
> >>
> >>IMHO, one of the biggest fears in IoTs is that this large number
> >>of devices with (most of the time) IP capabilities can be really
> >>dangerous because they can be used as botnet and gateways to
> >>deploy more sophisticated attacks. If we do not mandate for
> >>automatic upgrades that would (besides functional upgrades) fix
> >>security issues, the situation might be quite eerie.
> >>
> >>This said, I am a big fan of the user to be (rightfully so!) in
> >>control of her own devices... so, what do we do ?
> >>
> >>I do not really have an answer for this, but there might be the
> >>possibility do distinguish between devices that have User
> >>Interfaces (UIs) that the user can use to accept or deny updates
> >>and devices that do not.
> >>
> >>Another aspect to consider is usability. In particular, how
> >>annoyed would you be if you had to accept/reject updates for all
> >>your home-installed IoTs (20 light bulbs) or, even worst, for
> >>all your work-installed IoTs (50k smart light bulbs) ?
> >>
> >>If we take, for example, the situation today with OS
> >>updates/upgrades, we see that the vast vast vast majority of
> >>installations do leverage the deployment of automatic updates
> >>nevertheless the possibility for the user to opt-out.
> >>
> >>Maybe a possible solution to this dichotomy would be to suggest
> >>using an update-by-default policies and for devices that might
> >>have a UI (or a controller that can more easily interact with
> >>the user) to provide the possibility to (a) follow the same
> >>policy by accepting automatic updates, or (b) allow the user to
> >>confirm/reject every update, or (c) allow the user to
> >>automatically reject (dangerous) any updates.
> >>
> >>What do you think ?
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>Max
> >>
> >>
> >>On 11/16/17 1:16 AM, David A. Wheeler wrote:
> >>>I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to NOT update software.
> >>>
> >>>In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
> >>>internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.
> >>>
> >>>But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
> >>>There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
> >>>increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner
> >>>should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks.
> >>>
> >>>--- David A. Wheeler
> >>
> 

> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: Dave Thaler 
To: "David A. Wheeler" , suit 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org
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Requiring counter-signing is one example of a solution that has been discus=
sed which meets that requirement.
In any case, I agree with the requirement, and it should be is a policy dec=
ision.

Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 1:16 AM
To: suit 
Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to N=
OT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and internet=
-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are increasingl=
y not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner should be ab=
le to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: "David A. Wheeler" , suit 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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That's a fair requirement, David.

I do believe, however, that this is something that has no impact on a manif=
est format. Particularly in the IoT context it often happens that the end u=
ser is not sitting in the front of the device nor may the device even have =
a UI. So, the consent needs to happen to "outside" .

What is your view on how the consent could influence the manifest?

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Wheeler
Sent: 16 November 2017 01:16
To: suit
Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to N=
OT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and internet=
-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are increasingl=
y not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner should be ab=
le to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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From nobody Wed Nov 15 18:21:45 2017
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From: Dave Thaler 
To: Hannes Tschofenig , "David A. Wheeler" , suit 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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My opinion: the only requirement I can think of is that the manifest format=
 has to support multiple signatures (countersigning)
so that one could have a policy based on them.

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:06 AM
To: David A. Wheeler ; suit 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

That's a fair requirement, David.

I do believe, however, that this is something that has no impact on a manif=
est format. Particularly in the IoT context it often happens that the end u=
ser is not sitting in the front of the device nor may the device even have =
a UI. So, the consent needs to happen to "outside" .

What is your view on how the consent could influence the manifest?

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Wheeler
Sent: 16 November 2017 01:16
To: suit
Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to N=
OT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and internet=
-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are increasingl=
y not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner should be ab=
le to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
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IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
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From nobody Wed Nov 15 19:09:01 2017
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Dave Thaler , "David A. Wheeler" , suit 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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That's perfectly fine for me, Dave. We need this also for other purposes.

However, I don't think it is realistic for end users to assume that they ha=
ve a firmware signing certificate (+ private key) to sign firmware updates =
as a way to demonstrate consent for an update.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Thaler [mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com]
Sent: 16 November 2017 10:22
To: Hannes Tschofenig; David A. Wheeler; suit
Subject: RE: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

My opinion: the only requirement I can think of is that the manifest format=
 has to support multiple signatures (countersigning) so that one could have=
 a policy based on them.

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:06 AM
To: David A. Wheeler ; suit 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

That's a fair requirement, David.

I do believe, however, that this is something that has no impact on a manif=
est format. Particularly in the IoT context it often happens that the end u=
ser is not sitting in the front of the device nor may the device even have =
a UI. So, the consent needs to happen to "outside" .

What is your view on how the consent could influence the manifest?

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Wheeler
Sent: 16 November 2017 01:16
To: suit
Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to N=
OT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and internet=
-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are increasingl=
y not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner should be ab=
le to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler

_______________________________________________
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To: suit@ietf.org
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From: "Dr. Pala" 
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:26:49 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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Hi Hannes, David,

+1 to multiple signatures.

The use case I have in mind, however, is not for the user to 
counter-sign the firmware but for one or more additional "deployment" 
authority to "bless" the update for deployment in its environment. We 
already have this in the cable industry and I think it would be a good 
feature to have.

Cheers,
Max


On 11/16/17 11:08 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> That's perfectly fine for me, Dave. We need this also for other purposes.
>
> However, I don't think it is realistic for end users to assume that they have a firmware signing certificate (+ private key) to sign firmware updates as a way to demonstrate consent for an update.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Thaler [mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com]
> Sent: 16 November 2017 10:22
> To: Hannes Tschofenig; David A. Wheeler; suit
> Subject: RE: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
>
> My opinion: the only requirement I can think of is that the manifest format has to support multiple signatures (countersigning) so that one could have a policy based on them.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:06 AM
> To: David A. Wheeler ; suit 
> Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
>
> That's a fair requirement, David.
>
> I do believe, however, that this is something that has no impact on a manifest format. Particularly in the IoT context it often happens that the end user is not sitting in the front of the device nor may the device even have a UI. So, the consent needs to happen to "outside" .
>
> What is your view on how the consent could influence the manifest?
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Wheeler
> Sent: 16 November 2017 01:16
> To: suit
> Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
>
> I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to NOT update software.
>
> In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.
>
> But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
> There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --- David A. Wheeler
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C7215b35bed3043c20b6508d52c96a230%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636463947840714659&sdata=Xjz9tS4yuuiB%2Bp39yKYM%2B%2B00y4oKNqyBB8ddeSp%2Fr3U%3D&reserved=0
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> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


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On 15/11/2017 22:11, Thomas Eichinger wrote:
> An earlier comment of mine was that updates should clearly be marked 
> as security or feature updates 

This doesn't really sound plausible to me.  If only it were that simple.

In deploying a new "feature", a developer might introduce a bunch of new,

previously unknown security-related defects, making the system

worse, not better.


If a developer tells me "this update fixes bugs but doesn't add any new 
bugs"

why on earth should I believe them?

  - Rod



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On 15/11/2017 22:11, Thomas Eichinger
      wrote:

    

    
An
      earlier comment of mine was that updates should clearly be marked
      as security or feature updates 

    
This doesn't really sound plausible to me.  If
        only it were that simple.

    
In deploying a new "feature", a developer might
        introduce a bunch of new,

    
previously unknown security-related defects,
        making the system

    
worse, not better.

    


      

    
If a developer tells me "this update fixes bugs
        but doesn't add any new bugs"

    
why on earth should I believe them?

    
 - Rod

    


      

  


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Max: If you use delegations, you can have the flexibility to cover this
case, multiple signatures, and many other features.  It seems likely to
cover more cases than trying to pre-define different roles which all
perform the same task.

Thanks,
Justin

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Dr. Pala  wrote:

> Hi Hannes, David,
>
> +1 to multiple signatures.
>
> The use case I have in mind, however, is not for the user to counter-sign
> the firmware but for one or more additional "deployment" authority to
> "bless" the update for deployment in its environment. We already have this
> in the cable industry and I think it would be a good feature to have.
>
> Cheers,
> Max
>
>
>
> On 11/16/17 11:08 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>
>> That's perfectly fine for me, Dave. We need this also for other purposes.
>>
>> However, I don't think it is realistic for end users to assume that they
>> have a firmware signing certificate (+ private key) to sign firmware
>> updates as a way to demonstrate consent for an update.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dave Thaler [mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com]
>> Sent: 16 November 2017 10:22
>> To: Hannes Tschofenig; David A. Wheeler; suit
>> Subject: RE: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT
>> update
>>
>> My opinion: the only requirement I can think of is that the manifest
>> format has to support multiple signatures (countersigning) so that one
>> could have a policy based on them.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
>> Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:06 AM
>> To: David A. Wheeler ; suit 
>> Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT
>> update
>>
>> That's a fair requirement, David.
>>
>> I do believe, however, that this is something that has no impact on a
>> manifest format. Particularly in the IoT context it often happens that the
>> end user is not sitting in the front of the device nor may the device even
>> have a UI. So, the consent needs to happen to "outside" .
>>
>> What is your view on how the consent could influence the manifest?
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Wheeler
>> Sent: 16 November 2017 01:16
>> To: suit
>> Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
>>
>> I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to
>> NOT update software.
>>
>> In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
>> internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.
>>
>> But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
>> There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
>> increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner
>> should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --- David A. Wheeler
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
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>>
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>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
>> information in any medium. Thank you.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Max: If you use delegations, you can have the flexibility =
to cover this case, multiple signatures, and many other features.=C2=A0 It =
seems likely to cover more cases than trying to pre-define different roles =
which all perform the same task.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Thanks,
Justin

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Dr. Pala <madwolf@openca.org> wrote:
Hi Hannes, David,



+1 to multiple signatures.



The use case I have in mind, however, is not for the user to counter-sign t=
he firmware but for one or more additional "deployment" authority=
 to "bless" the update for deployment in its environment. We alre=
ady have this in the cable industry and I think it would be a good feature =
to have.



Cheers,

Max






On 11/16/17 11:08 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:



That's perfectly fine for me, Dave. We need this also for other purpose=
s.



However, I don't think it is realistic for end users to assume that the=
y have a firmware signing certificate (+ private key) to sign firmware upda=
tes as a way to demonstrate consent for an update.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Thaler [mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com]

Sent: 16 November 2017 10:22

To: Hannes Tschofenig; David A. Wheeler; suit

Subject: RE: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update=




My opinion: the only requirement I can think of is that the manifest format=
 has to support multiple signatures (countersigning) so that one could have=
 a policy based on them.



-----Original Message-----

From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig

Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:06 AM

To: David A. Wheeler <dwheeler@dwheeler.com>; suit <suit@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update=




That's a fair requirement, David.



I do believe, however, that this is something that has no impact on a manif=
est format. Particularly in the IoT context it often happens that the end u=
ser is not sitting in the front of the device nor may the device even have =
a UI. So, the consent needs to happen to "outside" .



What is your view on how the consent could influence the manifest?



Ciao

Hannes



-----Original Message-----

From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Wheeler

Sent: 16 November 2017 01:16

To: suit

Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update



I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to N=
OT update software.



In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and inte=
rnet-connected devices make that relatively easy.



But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.

There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are increas=
ingly not allowed to control them.=C2=A0 In the end, the end-user/owner sho=
uld be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.



Thanks.



--- David A. Wheeler



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Suit mailing list

Suit@ietf.org

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any medium. Thank you.



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Suit mailing list

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ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
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_______________________________________________

Suit mailing list

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit





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Suit@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit





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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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I agree. Delegations and multiple signatures are the appropriate way to han=
dle user consent. Signed policies-as-data might be an interesting way to ha=
ndle switching between automatic updates, automatic security updates, and u=
ser consent required.

Thanks,
Brendan


On 16 Nov 2017, at 14:41, Justin Cappos > wrote:

Max: If you use delegations, you can have the flexibility to cover this cas=
e, multiple signatures, and many other features.  It seems likely to cover =
more cases than trying to pre-define different roles which all perform the =
same task.

Thanks,
Justin

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Dr. Pala > wrote:
Hi Hannes, David,

+1 to multiple signatures.

The use case I have in mind, however, is not for the user to counter-sign t=
he firmware but for one or more additional "deployment" authority to "bless=
" the update for deployment in its environment. We already have this in the=
 cable industry and I think it would be a good feature to have.

Cheers,
Max



On 11/16/17 11:08 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
That's perfectly fine for me, Dave. We need this also for other purposes.

However, I don't think it is realistic for end users to assume that they ha=
ve a firmware signing certificate (+ private key) to sign firmware updates =
as a way to demonstrate consent for an update.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Thaler [mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com]
Sent: 16 November 2017 10:22
To: Hannes Tschofenig; David A. Wheeler; suit
Subject: RE: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

My opinion: the only requirement I can think of is that the manifest format=
 has to support multiple signatures (countersigning) so that one could have=
 a policy based on them.

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:06 AM
To: David A. Wheeler >;=
 suit >
Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

That's a fair requirement, David.

I do believe, however, that this is something that has no impact on a manif=
est format. Particularly in the IoT context it often happens that the end u=
ser is not sitting in the front of the device nor may the device even have =
a UI. So, the consent needs to happen to "outside" .

What is your view on how the consent could influence the manifest?

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of David A. Wheeler
Sent: 16 November 2017 01:16
To: suit
Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update

I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to N=
OT update software.

In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and internet=
-connected devices make that relatively easy.

But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are increasingl=
y not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner should be ab=
le to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.

Thanks.

--- David A. Wheeler

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
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ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
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any medium. Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

_______________________________________________
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Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

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--_000_943BB5D479C4437E9E2E70A822647489armcom_
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I agree. Delegations and multiple signatures are the appropriate way to han=
dle user consent. Signed policies-as-data might be an interesting way to ha=
ndle switching between automatic updates, automatic security updates, and u=
ser consent required.










Thanks,


Brendan












On 16 Nov 2017, at 14:41, Justin Cappos <jcappos@nyu.edu> wrote:






Max: If you use delegations, you can have the f=
lexibility to cover this case, multiple signatures, and many other features=
.  It seems likely to cover more cases than trying to pre-define diffe=
rent roles which all perform the same task.  






Thanks,


Justin







On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 10:26 PM, Dr. Pala 
<madw=
olf@openca.org> wrote:



Hi Hannes, David,



+1 to multiple signatures.



The use case I have in mind, however, is not for the user to counter-sign t=
he firmware but for one or more additional "deployment" authority=
 to "bless" the update for deployment in its environment. We alre=
ady have this in the cable industry and I think it would
 be a good feature to have.



Cheers,

Max









On 11/16/17 11:08 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:



That's perfectly fine for me, Dave. We need this also for other purposes.


However, I don't think it is realistic for end users to assume that they ha=
ve a firmware signing certificate (+ private key) to sign firmware upda=
tes as a way to demonstrate consent for an update.



-----Original Message-----

From: Dave Thaler [mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com]

Sent: 16 November 2017 10:22

To: Hannes Tschofenig; David A. Wheeler; suit

Subject: RE: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update=




My opinion: the only requirement I can think of is that the manifest format=
 has to support multiple signatures (countersigning) so that one could have=
 a policy based on them.



-----Original Message-----

From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig

Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2017 10:06 AM

To: David A. Wheeler <dwheeler@dwheeler.com>; suit <suit@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update=




That's a fair requirement, David.



I do believe, however, that this is something that has no impact on a manif=
est format. Particularly in the IoT context it often happens that the end u=
ser is not sitting in the front of the device nor may the device even have =
a UI. So, the consent needs to happen
 to "outside" .



What is your view on how the consent could influence the manifest?



Ciao

Hannes



-----Original Message-----

From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of David A. Wheeler

Sent: 16 November 2017 01:16

To: suit

Subject: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update



I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able to N=
OT update software.



In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and internet=
-connected devices make that relatively easy.



But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.

There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are increasingl=
y not allowed to control them.  In the end, the end-user/owner should =
be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.



Thanks.



--- David A. Wheeler



_______________________________________________

Suit mailing list

Suit@ietf.org=


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tlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%4=
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lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
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 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.



_______________________________________________

Suit mailing list

Suit@ietf.org=


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From: Brendan Moran 
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Thread-Topic: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:31:43 -0700
From: David Brown 
To: Brendan Moran 
Cc: "Dr. Pala" , "suit@ietf.org" 
Message-ID: <20171116173143.GA13094@davidb.org>
References: <21176.1510325360@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <74B896C8-2C93-4AEB-9508-69E8CE5CB7CE@vigilsec.com> <8387.1510337691@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <6FFC42C7-5049-432B-B608-598D2596B3A2@vigilsec.com>    <3b157673-23d9-d804-86c4-c6b51a56b040@openca.org> <10A09BC4-0726-4E7A-B70C-8122F61308D7@arm.com>
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 03:26:30PM +0000, Brendan Moran wrote:
>Hi Max,
>
>> On 15 Nov 2017, at 22:02, Dr. Pala  wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> Regarding verification, it won¹t just happen on the occasional firmware
>>> update. If you need to build the entire stack based on this update, then
>>> it will need to happen every time you boot up.
>> Not necessarily. In particular, after the firmware is verified for installation, the device could use simpler mechanisms (e.g., HMAC w/ a device-specific secret - hopefully HW protected like we have in many chips today) to quickly validate that the image has not changed across boots (that is actually all is needed after the initial validation has occurred during "installation”).
>
>I’ve discussed this option a bit in the past. The challenge here is
>that there are two steps in the chain of trust. The boot loader
>trusts the verifier. The verifier trusts the update authority(s).
>Now, if the verifier is in the boot loader, this is a single trust
>relationship. However, if the verifier lives outside the boot loader,
>then things are more complex. The boot loader must trust the
>application. This suggests that the application will require some
>sort of secure processing environment and some form of attestation.

If we have the situation where it is the trusted bootloader that is
doing the HMAC, it also has to have the capability to verify the
signature, which reduces the benefit of using the HMAC for
verification.

It can still be useful, though, if considered a performance
improvement.  For example, a small implementation of Ed25519 might
take several seconds to verify a signature.  If the bootloader could
verify the signature once, and then write an HMAC with a device key
only it has access to, subsequent boots could be much faster.

David


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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Madjid Nakhjiri 
cc: Russ Housley , "suit\@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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Madjid Nakhjiri  wrote:
    > So SHA-256 is just the hash, but I was referring to the signature
    > algorithm (Lamport, Diffie, Winternitz, and Merkle (LDWM)) that
    > requires its own public/private key pair.

yes, but LDWM is repeated hashing in a particular way.
Yes, you are right, it still has a private key, which the generator of the
firmware needs to know.

    > key to sign and public key to verify?  The questions are: 1) is LDWM
    > quantum resistant?

That's my understanding.

    > And more importantly 2) and 3) here 2) Is there an
    > HSM out there today that hosts a LDWM private key signing storage and
    > operation?

I'm sure that one could be built.
I'll bet that https://cryptech.is/ could be adapted to keep the private key.

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Thu Nov 16 14:12:30 2017
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Brendan Moran  wrote:
    > I=E2=80=99ve discussed this option a bit in the past. The challenge h=
ere is
    > that there are two steps in the chain of trust. The boot loader trusts
    > the verifier. The verifier trusts the update authority(s). Now, if the
    > verifier is in the boot loader, this is a single trust
    > relationship. However, if the verifier lives outside the boot loader,
    > then things are more complex. The boot loader must trust the
    > application. This suggests that the application will require some sort
    > of secure processing environment and some form of attestation.

You describe the situation well.

As far as I can see, this has no affect on the shape of the bits on wire.
Do you agree that this is an implementation issue.  Not a trivial one, but
never-the-less, not "our" problem.

(And yes, it's possible to do it wrong and wind up having very long boot
times as a result)

It might matter as to how many firmware packages are sent, as perhaps one of
them needs to be signed in a teep-happy way either in-addition-to, or
instead-of, the other signature.

So in the end, the requirement for multiple signatures seems to capture this
situation?

=2D-
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Hi Justin,

nice to read you again :D I hope everything is great with you :D

On 11/16/17 10:41 PM, Justin Cappos wrote:
> Max: If you use delegations, you can have the flexibility to cover 
> this case, multiple signatures, and many other features.  It seems 
> likely to cover more cases than trying to pre-define different roles 
> which all perform the same task.
Can you elaborate more about what you mean by "delegation" ? Keep in 
mind the constraints that these devices have (class1) - a 
delegation/role based model might be difficult to support or scare 
device vendors in case it is complex. Can you provide some more details 
about what you mean by using delegations ?

Cheers,
Max


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Some of you might find this of interest:

http://nap.edu/24833

  - Rod

  


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Some of you might find this of interest:

    
http://nap.edu/24833

 - Rod



    
 

    

  


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--94eb2c09d308b6293d055e33b157
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When you say class1, do you mean the Class 1 individual certificates
intended for individuals / email?

The delegation support I'm talking about is pretty straightforward (
https://isis.poly.edu/~jcappos/papers/samuel_tuf_ccs_2010.pdf
https://isis.poly.edu/~jcappos/papers/kuppusamy_nsdi_16.pdf ).  It's
basically just letting one say what other keys to trust in addition to what
hashes to trust.

So, normally you might sign a piece of metadata with image / hash names
like this:

"""
foo-1.0.tgz ab1234...
bar-1.0.tgz fedcba...
bar-1.1.tgz 987654...
zap-2.0.tgz 938271...

SIGNATURE (ACME co):
XXX
"""

The problem is that ACME co may have a lot of different developers or
suppliers and now you need to sign everything with ACME co's key.  With
delegations, you can selectively enable different parties to sign for some
files like this:

"""
foo-1.0.tgz ab1234...
bar* Alice(Alice pub...)
zap* Zapco(Zapco pub...)

SIGNATURE (ACME co):
XXX
"""

Now you can have separate pieces of metadata for Alice and Zapco that sign
for the files they are trusted to provide.

This really simple and lightweight mechanism provides the ability to handle
a whole lot of very complex situations, including things like letting users
choose whether they should manage when updates are applied vs letting
vendors do so, situations where Alice gets an intern and wants them to
build test versions of software, prevents key sharing, makes key
compromises less impactful, etc.

Delegations are the fundamental basis for TUF (used in desktop systems /
cloud) and Uptane (used in embedded systems like automobiles).

Thanks,
Justin



On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 6:22 PM, Dr. Pala  wrote:

> Hi Justin,
>
> nice to read you again :D I hope everything is great with you :D
>
> On 11/16/17 10:41 PM, Justin Cappos wrote:
>
>> Max: If you use delegations, you can have the flexibility to cover this
>> case, multiple signatures, and many other features.  It seems likely to
>> cover more cases than trying to pre-define different roles which all
>> perform the same task.
>>
> Can you elaborate more about what you mean by "delegation" ? Keep in mind
> the constraints that these devices have (class1) - a delegation/role based
> model might be difficult to support or scare device vendors in case it is
> complex. Can you provide some more details about what you mean by using
> delegations ?
>
> Cheers,
> Max
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>

--94eb2c09d308b6293d055e33b157
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


When you say class1, do you mean the Class 1 individual ce=
rtificates intended for individuals / email?

The delegat=
ion support I'm talking about is pretty straightforward ( https://isis.p=
oly.edu/~jcappos/papers/samuel_tuf_ccs_2010.pdf https://isis.poly.edu/~jca=
ppos/papers/kuppusamy_nsdi_16.pdf=C2=A0).=C2=A0 It's basically just=
 letting one say what other keys to trust in addition to what hashes to tru=
st.

So, normally you might sign a piece of metadat=
a with image / hash names like this:

""&=
quot;
foo-1.0.tgz ab1234...
bar-1.0.tgz fedcba...
=

bar-1.1.tgz 987654...
zap-2.0.tgz 938271...

SIGNATURE (ACME co):
XXX
"""

The problem is that ACME co may have a lot of differ=
ent developers or suppliers and now you need to sign everything with ACME c=
o's key.=C2=A0 With delegations, you can selectively enable different p=
arties to sign for some files like this:

"&qu=
ot;"
foo-1.0.tgz ab1234...
bar* Alice(Alice p=
ub...)
zap* Zapco(Zapco pub...)

SIGNATURE (ACME co):
XXX
"""

Now you can have separate pieces of metadata for Ali=
ce and Zapco that sign for the files they are trusted to provide.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0

This really simple and lightweight mechanism p=
rovides the ability to handle a whole lot of very complex situations, inclu=
ding things like letting users choose whether they should manage when updat=
es are applied vs letting vendors do so, situations where Alice gets an int=
ern and wants them to build test versions of software, prevents key sharing=
, makes key compromises less impactful, etc.

Deleg=
ations are the fundamental basis for TUF (used in desktop systems / cloud) =
and Uptane (used in embedded systems like automobiles).

Thanks,
Justin



On Thu, Nov 16, 2017=
 at 6:22 PM, Dr. Pala <madwolf@openca.org> wrote:
Hi Justin,



nice to read you again :D I hope everything is great with you :D



On 11/16/17 10:41 PM, Justin Cappos wrote:



Max: If you use delegations, you can have the flexibility to cover this cas=
e, multiple signatures, and many other features.=C2=A0 It seems likely to c=
over more cases than trying to pre-define different roles which all perform=
 the same task.



Can you elaborate more about what you mean by "delegation" ? Keep=
 in mind the constraints that these devices have (class1) - a delegation/ro=
le based model might be difficult to support or scare device vendors in cas=
e it is complex. Can you provide some more details about what you mean by u=
sing delegations ?



Cheers,

Max




_______________________________________________

Suit mailing list

Suit@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit





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References:         <16230.1510957152@obiwan.sandelman.ca>
From: Justin Cappos 
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Okay thanks for clarifying!  Class 1 devices look similar to what people
use for partial verification secondaries

in Uptane...

Thanks,
Justin



On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 5:19 PM, Michael Richardson 
wrote:

>
> Justin Cappos  wrote:
>     > When you say class1, do you mean the Class 1 individual certificates
>     > intended for individuals / email?
>
> Unlikely.
> Probably class 1 device, according to RFC7228.
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7228#section-3
>
>
> --
> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>
>
>
>

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Okay thanks for clarifying!=C2=A0 Class 1 devices look sim=
ilar to what people use for =
partial verification secondaries in Uptane...

Thanks=
,
Justin



On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 5:1=
9 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:<=
br>


Justin Cappos <jcappos@nyu.edu>=
; wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > When you say class1, do you mean the Class 1 individual =
certificates

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > intended for individuals / email?



Unlikely.

Probably class 1 device, according to RFC7228.



https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7228#section-3<=
br>




--

Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@=
sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works

=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-











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From: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 00:46:55 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Michael Richardson 
Cc: suit , Shikhar Sakhuja , Justin Cappos ,  Sebastien Awwad , Vladimir Diaz ,  Ariella C Feuchtwanger , trishank.kuppusamy@datadoghq.com
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT
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Hello Michael,

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Michael Richardson 
wrote:

>
> Awesome, so happy to have you join the discussion!
>

Thanks! Sorry for the late reply, I have been OOO...


> Can you tell us a bit about how uptane indicates which vehicles should
> apply
> the update?  Can it get down to a single vehicle?  If so, are there any
> privacy protections involved?


In Uptane, a server called the *director repository* is used to indicate
which ECUs on a vehicle installs which updates. You can think of the
director repository as a robot running on the cloud, performing dependency
resolution on behalf of vehicles.

Yes, customization can get down to a single vehicle: two different vehicles
of the same make and model can be instructed to install different updates
(e.g., because one has paid for premium packages, whereas the other has
not).

Could you elaborate on what sort of privacy protections you would need? It
is possible, for example, to use TLS to protect sensitive information from
MitM attacks.


> Very interesting.
>
> I'm reading your github source code.
>

Please let us know if you have questions. Thanks!

--94eb2c0b10fe99880c055e639f27
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Hello Michael,

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:26 AM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


Awesome, so happy to have you join the discussion!<=
br>

Thanks! Sorry for the late reply=
, I have been OOO... 
=C2=A0

Can you tell us a bit about how uptane indicates which vehicles shou=
ld apply

the update?=C2=A0 Can it get down to a single vehicle?=C2=A0 If so, are the=
re any

privacy protections involved?

In Uptane, a =
server called the director repository is used to indicate which ECUs=
 on a vehicle installs which updates. You can think of the director reposit=
ory as a robot running on the cloud, performing dependency resolution on be=
half of vehicles.

Yes, customization can get down =
to a single vehicle: two different vehicles of the same make and model can =
be instructed to install different updates (e.g., because one has paid for =
premium packages, whereas the other has not).

Coul=
d you elaborate on what sort of privacy protections you would need? It is p=
ossible, for example, to use TLS to protect sensitive information from MitM=
 attacks.
=C2=A0

Very interesting.



I'm reading your github source code.

Please let us know if you have questions. Thanks! 
<=
/div>


--94eb2c0b10fe99880c055e639f27--


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From: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 01:22:59 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Brendan Moran 
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" , Shikhar Sakhuja , Justin Cappos ,  Sebastien Awwad , Vladimir Diaz ,  Ariella C Feuchtwanger , trishank.kuppusamy@datadoghq.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140ae2c92a46c055e6420b9"
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Hello Brendan,

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Brendan Moran 
wrote:

>
> We are glad to have your input!
>

Thanks for your feedback! Please accept my apologies for the late reply. I
have been OOO...


> Most of these concepts are already covered in
> draft-moran-suit-manifest-00. We have not explicitly laid out Threshold
> signatures, nor diversity of signing and hashing algorithms, though there
> is nothing in draft-moran-suit-manifest-00 that should prevent either of
> these concepts from working. On constrained devices, diversity of
> cryptographic primitives is a difficult tradeoff since cryptographic
> algorithms, particularly asymmetric ones, consume a lot of code space.
>

Understood. For constrained devices, is there a notion of using a
per-device symmetric key

?

We explicitly leave key revocation out of scope. Because we don=E2=80=99t d=
efine
> key provisioning mechanisms, this is a problem that is not solved in
> draft-moran-suit-manifest-00. Since IoT platforms are so disparate in
> nature, it is difficult to prescribe the handling of keys, since any
> specified mechanism may not be practical for a given application.
>

Interesting. Do you think we could make a few optional recommendations, for
those who are interested in guidance?


> I think that TUF and Suit cover many of the same goals. I think that our
> threat models are largely compatible; I=E2=80=99ve just finished sending =
out the
> threat model that we used for the suit manifest draft. I fully anticipate
> that you could construct a TUF endpoint using the Suit manifest.
>

Very good to know!

By the way it is written, I think it is fair to say that TUF is largely
> aimed at high-bandwidth networks and homogenous thick clients, particular=
ly
> with human interface. Uptane deals with many of these issues. The problem
> is different in the IoT space. For example, TUF says:
>

I am not yet fully aware of all of the differences in the IoT space, which
is why I reached out to this group, and I am confident that we can resolve
them.

An IoT device may not know the time or, if it does, the time may be
> considered suspect unless a secure time source is available (and indeed
> this is the solution that Uptane seems to recommend). That creates a new
> trust relationship that must also be managed. This is far more problemati=
c
> on an IoT device, since a user would typically not have time set wrong by
> more than a few hours, which are mostly irrelevant in key rotation
> schedules. In IoT devices without realtime clocks, they must obtain a
> trusted time at each power-on for any implicit key revocation, or freeze
> attack detection to work.
>

Yes, and we need not make a rigid prescription for this time server.
Implementors may be free to use an external time server (e.g., NTP;
something like the one in Uptane; Google Roughtime), or they may obtain a
trusted time some other way (e.g., on system).


> TUF doesn=E2=80=99t specify any way to perform matching of target hardwar=
e, but
> Uptane handles this in the Custom block of Targets.
>

Correct. In fact, Uptane inherits this Custom block of Targets from TUF,
and use it to match images to hardware.

TUF=E2=80=99s specification requires the existence of a filesystem, however=
 I=E2=80=99m
> sure you could construct a reasonable TUF endpoint while ignoring this. T=
UF
> also specifies a signature verification overhead that is problematic for
> IoT. Based on the TUF update process outlined here: https://github.com/
> theupdateframework/specification/blob/master/tuf-
> spec.md#5-detailed-workflows, I count a minimum of 3 signature
> verifications for a first-time update:
>

Yes, the TUF and Uptane specifications are written from the point of view
of filesystems, although, as you noted, this assumption is not required
.
The important point is that different metadata "files" are located in
different locations / addresses (which may be strings or even numbers, as
long as they are unique).

As for the number of signatures, my comment follows.


> T * (N + 3) signature verifications
>
> Where:
> * there are N intermediate root metadata files,
> * there is 1 timestamp file
> * there is 1 snapshot file
> * there is 1 targets file
> * a threshold of T signatures are needed (I=E2=80=99m assuming it=E2=80=
=99s the same for
> all files, but this may not be the case)
>
> Even with a relatively modest number of root metadata files, and a small
> number for T, this could consume a significant quantity of a
> battery-powered device=E2=80=99s lifetime power budget.
>

You are right that for a first-time update, this could be the case.
However, there are a few important observations.

First, T is not the same for all files. For most cases, it could be set to
1.

Second, N may not necessarily be large. Since the root metadata file is not
expected to be frequently updated, it can be safely refreshed every year or
so (unless there has been a compromise).

Thus, a typical update is likely to refresh at most 3 files: timestamp,
snapshot, and targets. However, we should certainly discuss common
configurations of roles to see how large metadata may be.


> One other consideration for IoT devices is that writing to flash is an
> expensive operation. This means that it should be limited, particularly
> when a device may be under attack. This is why we specify metadata that c=
an
> easily fit in RAM, with no attached payload. This allows signature
> verification prior to storage on constrained devices.
>

Indeed. We discuss in Uptane how to reduce writing unnecessary metadata to
flash
.
It is necessary to cache some metadata, such as version numbers and keys.


> The tiered metadata approach in TUF is interesting. Previously, I had
> considered the device-side =E2=80=9Cpolicies=E2=80=9D of how to apply upd=
ates (such as how
> many signatures to require) to be a firmware problem, but it could be don=
e
> with signed metadata as well. I think that for the most constrained
> clients, leaving policies in firmware is likely the best choice, still.
>

Certainly we should be able to accommodate both approaches.

I look forward to our continued collaboration. Please let us know if you
have more questions!

Best regards,
Trishank

--001a1140ae2c92a46c055e6420b9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hello Brendan,

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Brendan Moran <Brendan.Moran@arm.com> wrote:








We are glad to have your input!

Thanks for your feedbac=
k! Please accept my apologies for the late reply. I have been OOO...
=C2=A0

Most of these concepts are already covered in draft-moran-suit-manif=
est-00. We have not explicitly laid out Threshold signatures, nor diversity=
 of signing and hashing algorithms, though there is nothing in draft-moran-=
suit-manifest-00 that should prevent
 either of these concepts from working. On constrained devices, diversity o=
f cryptographic primitives is a difficult tradeoff since cryptographic algo=
rithms, particularly asymmetric ones, consume a lot of code space.


Understood. For constrai=
ned devices, is there a notion of using a per-device symmetric key?



We explicitly leave key revocation out of scope. Because we don=E2=80=
=99t define key provisioning mechanisms, this is a problem that is not solv=
ed in draft-moran-suit-manifest-00. Since IoT platforms are so disparate in=
 nature, it is difficult to prescribe the
 handling of keys, since any specified mechanism may not be practical for a=
 given application.


=C2=A0
Interesting. Do=
 you think we could make a few optional recommendations, for those who are =
interested in guidance?
=C2=A0


I think that TUF and Suit cover many of the same goals. I think that o=
ur threat models are largely compatible; I=E2=80=99ve just finished sending=
 out the threat model that we used for the suit manifest draft. I fully ant=
icipate that you could construct a TUF endpoint
 using the Suit manifest.

Very good to know!
 



By the way it is written, I think it is fair to say that TUF is largel=
y aimed at high-bandwidth networks and homogenous thick clients, particular=
ly with human interface. Uptane deals with many of these issues. The proble=
m is different in the IoT
 space. For example, TUF says:

<=
/div>
I am not yet fully aware of all of the differences in the IoT spa=
ce, which is why I reached out to this group, and I am confident that we ca=
n resolve them.

An IoT device may not know the time or, if=
 it does, the time may be considered suspect unless a secure time source is=
 available (and indeed this is the solution that Uptane seems to recommend)=
. That creates a new trust relationship that must also
 be managed. This is far more problematic on an IoT device, since a user wo=
uld typically not have time set wrong by more than a few hours, which are m=
ostly irrelevant in key rotation schedules. In IoT devices without realtime=
 clocks, they must obtain a trusted
 time at each power-on for any implicit key revocation, or freeze attack de=
tection to work.

Yes, and we ne=
ed not make a rigid prescription for this time server. Implementors may be =
free to use an external time server (e.g., NTP; something like the one in U=
ptane; Google Roughtime), or they may obtain a trusted time some other way =
(e.g., on system).
=C2=A0



TUF doesn=E2=80=99t specify any way to perform matching of target hard=
ware, but Uptane handles this in the Custom block of Targets.

Correct. In fact, Uptane inherits this=
 Custom block of Targets from TUF, and use it to match images to hardware.<=
br>
 



TUF=E2=80=99s specification requires the existence of a filesystem, ho=
wever I=E2=80=99m sure you could construct a reasonable TUF endpoint while =
ignoring this. TUF also specifies a signature verification overhead that is=
 problematic for IoT. Based on the TUF
 update process outlined here:=C2=A0https://github.com/theupdateframework/specification/=
blob/master/tuf-spec.md#5-detailed-workflows, I count
 a minimum of 3 signature verifications for a first-time update:

Yes, the TUF and Uptane specificati=
ons are written from the point of view of filesystems, although, as you not=
ed, this assumption is not r=
equired. The important point is that different metadata "files&quo=
t; are located in different locations / addresses (which may be strings or =
even numbers, as long as they are unique).

As for =
the number of signatures, my comment follows.
=C2=A0



T * (N + 3) signature verifications







Where:


* there are N intermediate root metadata files,


* there is 1 timestamp file


* there is 1 snapshot file


* there is 1 targets file


* a threshold of T signatures are needed (I=E2=80=99m assuming it=E2=
=80=99s the same for all files, but this may not be the case)







Even with a relatively modest number of root metadata files, and a sma=
ll number for T, this could consume a significant quantity of a battery-pow=
ered device=E2=80=99s lifetime power budget.
=


You are right that for a first-time update, this could =
be the case. However, there are a few important observations.
First, T is not the same for all files. For most cases, it coul=
d be set to 1.

Second, N may not necessarily be la=
rge. Since the root metadata file is not expected to be frequently updated,=
 it can be safely refreshed every year or so (unless there has been a compr=
omise).

Thus, a typical update is likely to refres=
h at most 3 files: timestamp, snapshot, and targets. However, we should cer=
tainly discuss common configurations of roles to see how large metadata may=
 be.
=C2=A0





One other consideration for IoT devices is that writing to flash is an=
 expensive operation. This means that it should be limited, particularly wh=
en a device may be under attack. This is why we specify metadata that can e=
asily fit in RAM, with
 no attached payload. This allows signature verification prior to storage o=
n constrained devices.

Indeed. =
We discuss in Uptane how to =
reduce writing unnecessary metadata to flash. It is necessary to cache =
some metadata, such as version numbers and keys.
=C2=A0
=




The tiered metadata approach in TUF is interesting. Previously, I had =
considered the device-side =E2=80=9Cpolicies=E2=80=9D of how to apply updat=
es (such as how many signatures to require) to be a firmware problem, but i=
t could be done with signed metadata as
 well. I think that for the most constrained clients, leaving policies in f=
irmware is likely the best choice, still.

=

Certainly we should be able to accommodate both approaches.

I look forward to our continued collaboration. Please =
let us know if you have more questions!

Best regar=
ds,
Trishank


--001a1140ae2c92a46c055e6420b9--


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From: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 01:24:18 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: "David A. Wheeler" 
Cc: suit , Brendan Moran ,  Justin Cappos , Shikhar Sakhuja ,  Ariella C Feuchtwanger , Sebastien Awwad ,  Vladimir Diaz , trishank.kuppusamy@datadoghq.com
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Hello David,

On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 10:13 AM, David A. Wheeler 
wrote:

>
> I think the suit spec should specifically note TUF and uptane, and do a
> quick comparison of the differences and rationales for them. Many people
> will want to know the difference is, and why. Making the relationship clear
> would really help.
>

I would be happy to help with this effort. Please let me know how I may
contribute.

Best,
Trishank

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Hello David,

On Sat, Nov 11, 2017 at 10:13 AM, David A. Wheeler <d=
wheeler@dwheeler.com> wrote:

I think the suit spec should specifically not=
e TUF and uptane, and do a quick comparison of the differences and rational=
es for them. Many people will want to know the difference is, and why. Maki=
ng the relationship clear would really help.

I would be happy to help with this effort. Please let me know how I m=
ay contribute.

Best,
Trishank
<=
/div>


--001a114abe345370e8055e6425f0--


From nobody Mon Nov 20 03:41:18 2017
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT
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(Cleaning up the CCs a bit.)

> On Nov 20, 2017, at 07:22, Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy =
 wrote:
>=20
> Understood. For constrained devices, is there a notion of using a =
per-device symmetric key?

Certainly, and for many devices this is a good way to obtain good =
security while using limited resources.

However, this is not the right way to secure all deployments.

The most important question is: Who holds the other copy of the =
symmetric key?

* The manufacturer?

Some manufacturers don=E2=80=99t want to have liability for being able =
to control the devices.
Some very much do want full control, but rather prefer to secure a chain =
of asymmetric keys instead of a large number of symmetric keys.
(In any case, the asymmetric key will then be used to agree a symmetric =
key, and unless the device has lots of energy, one may not want to do =
this very often.  So the manufacturer will often still have to store =
symmetric keys, but these can then be limited in lifetime and dumped in =
an emergency.)

* The owner?

Many users are not set up for securely storing keys of this kind.
If the key is stored in a smartphone or general purpose computer, that =
may get lost or damaged.
Unless special software such as a password manager is used, there is =
also a good likelihood of key compromise.

In case of loss (or compromise), there needs to be a key replacement =
mechanism.

If physical access to the device is reasonably easy, and also can be =
limited to the owner (in multi-tenant situations it usually can=E2=80=99t)=
, key replacement can be achieved by a physical connection or by =
printing a key recovery password on a part of the device that is not =
visible to an attacker.

(E.g., IKEA prints a representation of the key itself on each Tr=C3=A5dfri=
 gateway.  A better way might be to print a password that can be used =
for setting a new key.)

* What about others?

None of this discusses the need for delegation =E2=80=94 the owner may =
be a company that needs to delegate authorization to employees and =
contractors.  This can be done by giving them symmetric keys with =
specific authorizations attached (tickets), or tokens that can be =
checked by the device with its authorization manager (for which the =
device may use a symmetric key with the authorization manager, possibly =
using this key in an offline validation of the token).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Mon Nov 20 05:59:31 2017
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To: suit 
cc: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
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Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy  wrote:
    > Could you elaborate on what sort of privacy protections you would
    > need? It is possible, for example, to use TLS to protect sensitive
    > information from MitM attacks.

While TLS gives us privacy in transit, it does not necessarily provide
privacy at rest.  For instance, imagine the need to carry the firmware upda=
te
From=20vehicle to vehicle on a USB key:  a firmware update that causes reca=
ll
requiring an update at the garage.  (Maybe due to a vulnerability in the
online update mechanism!).

Such a key could easily get misplaced or the contents could become table.

Such a firmware update might contain a list of vehicles to which the update
applies.   It would be bad if the list of VINs or EUI-48/64s that that will
accept the update was easily visible from the firmware contents.
At the same time, there is the hassle of finding out what's really on the
(usb) key! ("Do we still need this one? Is the software on it up to date?")


=2D-
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Michael Richardson  wrote:

    > Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy  wrote:
    >> Could you elaborate on what sort of privacy protections you would
    >> need? It is possible, for example, to use TLS to protect sensitive
    >> information from MitM attacks.

    > While TLS gives us privacy in transit, it does not necessarily provide
    > privacy at rest.  For instance, imagine the need to carry the firmware update
    > From vehicle to vehicle on a USB key:  a firmware update that causes recall
    > requiring an update at the garage.  (Maybe due to a vulnerability in the
    > online update mechanism!).

    > Such a key could easily get misplaced or the contents could become
    > table.

ENOTENOUGHCOFFEE.  Should read "become public"
(Not a typo or an autocorrect)

    > Such a firmware update might contain a list of vehicles to which the update
    > applies.   It would be bad if the list of VINs or EUI-48/64s that that will
    > accept the update was easily visible from the firmware contents.
    > At the same time, there is the hassle of finding out what's really on the
    > (usb) key! ("Do we still need this one? Is the software on it up to
    > date?")

There are ways in which I can see making the list unreadable and yet each
vehicle can be named, but it probably doesn't simultaenously work for the
"legitimate" query of what's on this key.


--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Apostolos Malatras 
To: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: ENISA study "Baseline Security Recommendations for IoT in the context of CII" is out
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Subject: [Suit] ENISA study "Baseline Security Recommendations for IoT in the context of CII" is out
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Dear all,

We are very happy to announce that the ENISA Study "Baseline Security Recom=
mendations for IoT in the context of CII" study is out:
https://www.enisa.europa.eu/news/enisa-news/defining-and-securing-the-inter=
net-of-things       =20

Please feel free to share the study with your networks.

Sincerely,
-Apostolos

---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------
Dr Apostolos Malatras

Network and Information Security Expert
European Union Agency for Network & Information Security
Address:              1 Vass Sofias Str, Marousi 151 24, Attica, Greece
E- mail:                 Apostolos.Malatras@enisa.europa.eu
Office:                   +30 2814 409 630
Mobile:                 +30 6985 051 401

=20


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Apostolos Malatras , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: ENISA study "Baseline Security Recommendations for IoT in the context of CII" is out
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Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 10:57:25 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Suit] ENISA study "Baseline Security Recommendations for IoT in the context of CII" is out
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Thanks for sharing, Apostolos.

The recommendations also include firmware updates:

Secure Software / Firmware updates
- GP-TM-18: Ensure that the device software/firmware, its configuration and=
 its applications have the
ability to update Over-The-Air (OTA), that the update server is secure, tha=
t the update file is transmitted
via a secure connection, that it does not contain sensitive data (e.g. hard=
coded credentials), that it is
signed by an authorised trust entity and encrypted using accepted encryptio=
n methods, and that the
update package has its digital signature, signing certificate and signing c=
ertificate chain, verified by the
device before the update process begins.
-  GP-TM-19: Offer an automatic firmware update mechanism.
-  GP-TM-20: Backward compatibility of firmware updates. Automatic firmware=
 updates should not modify
user-configured preferences, security, and/or privacy settings without user=
 notification.

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Apostolos Malatras
Sent: 21 November 2017 11:54
To: suit@ietf.org
Subject: [Suit] ENISA study "Baseline Security Recommendations for IoT in t=
he context of CII" is out

Dear all,

We are very happy to announce that the ENISA Study "Baseline Security Recom=
mendations for IoT in the context of CII" study is out:
https://www.enisa.europa.eu/news/enisa-news/defining-and-securing-the-inter=
net-of-things

Please feel free to share the study with your networks.

Sincerely,
-Apostolos

---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------------
Dr Apostolos Malatras

Network and Information Security Expert
European Union Agency for Network & Information Security
Address:              1 Vass Sofias Str, Marousi 151 24, Attica, Greece
E- mail:                 Apostolos.Malatras@enisa.europa.eu
Office:                   +30 2814 409 630
Mobile:                 +30 6985 051 401



_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
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any medium. Thank you.


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In-Reply-To: 
References:  <59D85B3E-F838-4FBC-9012-82ABC997024B@arm.com>  
From: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 21:13:06 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Carsten Bormann 
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1135337c9beae0055e88de78"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT
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--001a1135337c9beae0055e88de78
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Hello Carsten,

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:

>
> Certainly, and for many devices this is a good way to obtain good securit=
y
> while using limited resources.
>
> However, this is not the right way to secure all deployments.
>
> The most important question is: Who holds the other copy of the symmetric
> key?
>
> * The manufacturer?
>
> Some manufacturers don=E2=80=99t want to have liability for being able to=
 control
> the devices.
> Some very much do want full control, but rather prefer to secure a chain
> of asymmetric keys instead of a large number of symmetric keys.
> (In any case, the asymmetric key will then be used to agree a symmetric
> key, and unless the device has lots of energy, one may not want to do thi=
s
> very often.  So the manufacturer will often still have to store symmetric
> keys, but these can then be limited in lifetime and dumped in an emergenc=
y.)
>
> * The owner?
>
> Many users are not set up for securely storing keys of this kind.
> If the key is stored in a smartphone or general purpose computer, that ma=
y
> get lost or damaged.
> Unless special software such as a password manager is used, there is also
> a good likelihood of key compromise.
>
> In case of loss (or compromise), there needs to be a key replacement
> mechanism.
>
> If physical access to the device is reasonably easy, and also can be
> limited to the owner (in multi-tenant situations it usually can=E2=80=99t=
), key
> replacement can be achieved by a physical connection or by printing a key
> recovery password on a part of the device that is not visible to an
> attacker.
>
> (E.g., IKEA prints a representation of the key itself on each Tr=C3=A5dfr=
i
> gateway.  A better way might be to print a password that can be used for
> setting a new key.)
>
> * What about others?
>
> None of this discusses the need for delegation =E2=80=94 the owner may be=
 a
> company that needs to delegate authorization to employees and contractors=
.
> This can be done by giving them symmetric keys with specific authorizatio=
ns
> attached (tickets), or tokens that can be checked by the device with its
> authorization manager (for which the device may use a symmetric key with
> the authorization manager, possibly using this key in an offline validati=
on
> of the token).
>
>
Thanks for your detailed reply!

I don't have much to say here, except to note that my only concern is what
happens when this symmetric key is compromised. Can it be used to
impersonate an OEM and / or an end-device? This is something to think about
when designing any compromise-resilient update mechanism, and recovering
from a key compromise.

Best regards,
Trishank

--001a1135337c9beae0055e88de78
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hello Carsten,

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.or=
g> wrote:
=


Certainly, and for many devices this is a good way to obtain good se=
curity while using limited resources.



However, this is not the right way to secure all deployments.



The most important question is: Who holds the other copy of the symmetric k=
ey?



* The manufacturer?



Some manufacturers don=E2=80=99t want to have liability for being able to c=
ontrol the devices.

Some very much do want full control, but rather prefer to secure a chain of=
 asymmetric keys instead of a large number of symmetric keys.

(In any case, the asymmetric key will then be used to agree a symmetric key=
, and unless the device has lots of energy, one may not want to do this ver=
y often.=C2=A0 So the manufacturer will often still have to store symmetric=
 keys, but these can then be limited in lifetime and dumped in an emergency=
.)



* The owner?



Many users are not set up for securely storing keys of this kind.

If the key is stored in a smartphone or general purpose computer, that may =
get lost or damaged.

Unless special software such as a password manager is used, there is also a=
 good likelihood of key compromise.



In case of loss (or compromise), there needs to be a key replacement mechan=
ism.



If physical access to the device is reasonably easy, and also can be limite=
d to the owner (in multi-tenant situations it usually can=E2=80=99t), key r=
eplacement can be achieved by a physical connection or by printing a key re=
covery password on a part of the device that is not visible to an attacker.=




(E.g., IKEA prints a representation of the key itself on each Tr=C3=A5dfri =
gateway.=C2=A0 A better way might be to print a password that can be used f=
or setting a new key.)



* What about others?



None of this discusses the need for delegation =E2=80=94 the owner may be a=
 company that needs to delegate authorization to employees and contractors.=
=C2=A0 This can be done by giving them symmetric keys with specific authori=
zations attached (tickets), or tokens that can be checked by the device wit=
h its authorization manager (for which the device may use a symmetric key w=
ith the authorization manager, possibly using this key in an offline valida=
tion of the token).





Thanks for your detailed reply!

I don't have much to say here, =
except to note that my only concern is what happens when this symmetric key=
 is compromised. Can it be used to impersonate an OEM and / or an end-devic=
e? This is something to think about when designing any compromise-resilient=
 update mechanism, and recovering from a key compromise.

Best regards,
Trishank


--001a1135337c9beae0055e88de78--


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References:  <16295.1510154792@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <28125.1511186367@obiwan.sandelman.ca>
From: Trishank Karthik Kuppusamy 
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 21:46:32 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Michael Richardson 
Cc: suit 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1140ae2c2a6d39055e895615"
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Towards building a secure software update standard for IoT
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On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Michael Richardson 
wrote:

>
> While TLS gives us privacy in transit, it does not necessarily provide
> privacy at rest.  For instance, imagine the need to carry the firmware
> update
> From vehicle to vehicle on a USB key:  a firmware update that causes recall
> requiring an update at the garage.  (Maybe due to a vulnerability in the
> online update mechanism!).
>
> Such a key could easily get misplaced or the contents could become table.
>
> Such a firmware update might contain a list of vehicles to which the update
> applies.   It would be bad if the list of VINs or EUI-48/64s that that will
> accept the update was easily visible from the firmware contents.
> At the same time, there is the hassle of finding out what's really on the
> (usb) key! ("Do we still need this one? Is the software on it up to date?")
>

Yes, I think you're right, there are ways to solve this problem (e.g.,
end-to-end encryption) without hampering with software update security.

Regards,
Trishank

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On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Michael Richardson <=
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
<=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<=
/span>

While TLS gives us privacy in transit, it does not necessarily provi=
de

privacy at rest.=C2=A0 For instance, imagine the need to carry the firmware=
 update

>From vehicle to vehicle on a USB key:=C2=A0 a firmware update that causes r=
ecall

requiring an update at the garage.=C2=A0 (Maybe due to a vulnerability in t=
he

online update mechanism!).



Such a key could easily get misplaced or the contents could become table.


Such a firmware update might contain a list of vehicles to which the update=


applies.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It would be bad if the list of VINs or EUI-48/64s that=
 that will

accept the update was easily visible from the firmware contents.

At the same time, there is the hassle of finding out what's really on t=
he

(usb) key! ("Do we still need this one? Is the software on it up to da=
te?")

Yes, I think you're righ=
t, there are ways to solve this problem (e.g., end-to-end encryption) witho=
ut hampering with software update security.

Regard=
s,
Trishank


--001a1140ae2c2a6d39055e895615--


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:29:26 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: suit@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c047deac3018c055e9ab02c"
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Subject: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Hi,

I would like to propose additions to charter on scoping the work for
firmware server discovery and mechanism to download the same. This is very
important for interoperability and needed to make this work under several
controlled IOT deployments. IIRC, this was one of the updates that was
agreed upon during BOF discussions.

In this regard, the current charter says

"""

A firmware update solution consists of several components, including:

- A mechanism to transport firmware images to compatible devices.

- A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a
firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and
dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic
information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion.

- The firmware image itself.

"""



I would like to propose following addition to the above list

   -

   Mechanisms to discover new firmware is available and the location to
   download it from


Cheers
Suhas Nandakumar

--94eb2c047deac3018c055e9ab02c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi,=

 I would like to propos=
e additions to charter on scoping the work for firmware server discovery an=
d mechanism to download the same. This is very important for interoperabili=
ty and needed to make this work under several controlled IOT deployments. I=
IRC, this was one of the updates that was agreed upon during BOF discussion=
s.
In this regard=
, the current charter says 
""&quo=
t;
A firmware update solution consists of se=
veral components, including:
- A mechanism t=
o transport firmware images to compatible devices.
- A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such =
as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, an=
d dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic inform=
ation for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion.
- The firmware image itself.
""&q=
uot;
=C2=A0
I would like to propose following ad=
dition to the above list
  • Mechanisms to discover new firmwar=
e is available and the location to download it from

Cheers
Suha=
s Nandakumar


--94eb2c047deac3018c055e9ab02c--


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:31:14 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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Hello All

The charter current says the following on the CMS or RFC 4108

"""

RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message
Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years have passed
since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater experience with IoT
deployments has led to additional functionality, requiring a contemporary
standardized solution to be defined.

"""

I feel this para is not adding value to the WG objectives and should be
removed from the charter. IIRC the BOF discussions also indicated something
on the similar lines and RFC4108 is not in widespread use as of today.


Cheers

Suhas Nandakumar

--94eb2c096da22a6f62055e9ab736
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hello All<=
/span>
The charter curre=
nt says the following on the CMS or RFC 4108 
RFC 4108 provides a man=
ifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to protect fi=
rmware packages. More than ten years have passed since the publication of R=
FC 4108, and greater experience with IoT deployments has led to additional =
functionality, requiring a contemporary standardized solution to be defined=
.
"""
I feel this para is not adding value t=
o the WG objectives and should be removed from the charter. IIRC the BOF di=
scussions also indicated something on the similar lines and RFC4108 is not =
in widespread use as of today.

Cheers
Suhas Nandakumar
=



--94eb2c096da22a6f62055e9ab736--


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:34:06 -0800
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To: suit@ietf.org, suit-chairs@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
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Hi Kathleen and Chairs

I am bit confused on the actual process followed in updating the Suit
Charter. It looks like the current charter doesn=E2=80=99t seem to reflect =
fully
the consensus or discussion points from the BOF.

Also it would have been of great help if the updated charter was sent to
the SUIT mailing list for questions/consensus before getting uploaded to
the datatracker. I had to accidentally find it embedded in the BOF report
sent to saag mailing list.

Should questions/comments about the current charter sent to Suit mailing
list be the right way to follow up ? Also, Who is actually updating the
charter?

Please advice


Thanks

Suhas Nandakumar

--001a1149815c6ea59b055e9ac143
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Hi Kathlee=
n and Chairs
	<=
span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;background-color:transparent=
;vertical-align:baseline;white-space:pre-wrap">I am bit confused on the act=
ual process followed in updating the Suit Charter. It looks like the curren=
t charter doesn=E2=80=99t seem to reflect fully the consensus or discussion=
 points from the BOF. 
Also it would have been of great help if the updated charter was sent=
 to the SUIT mailing list for questions/consensus before getting uploaded t=
o the datatracker. I had to accidentally find it embedded in the BOF report=
 sent to saag mailing list. 
Should questions/comments about the current charter sent to Sui=
t mailing list be the right way to follow up ? Also, Who is actually updating the charter?
Please advice

Thanks
Suhas Nandakuma=
r



--001a1149815c6ea59b055e9ac143--


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:39:45 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: suit@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ef980a8021a055e9ad501"
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Subject: [Suit] Suit Charter: Working Group Objectives - Another Try
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Hello All

The current charter has following text on the deliverables for this working
group. Having explicitly listing out of the objectives might be really
helpful here.

Also the current text misses elements on firmware server discovery that
gathered support during the BOF discussions as seen in the current charter
text

"""

In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely:

- An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the
involved entities, security threats, and assumptions.

- One or more manifest format specifications.=E2=80=9D

 """

Below (in italicized) is an an attempt to help clarify the WG objectives.
Please let me know your thoughts.



This WG will work on developing an interoperable secure firmware upgrade
solution for IoT devices that are constrained in their resources (such as
RAM, Flash). The solution must enable firmware upgrades for the IoT devices
under various deployment options (such as, deployments under constrained
network access typically controlled by an Enterprise IT department or
factory OT group as well as with open Internet access deployments).

An extensible manifest format to describe metadata about the firmware and
its security properties will be developed by this WG. The working group
will also develop and architect solution that enable the IoT devices to
locate the firmware update server (and manifest) via existing transport
protocol mechanisms.

In particular, this WG will perform the following work:

   -

   Document that defines the requirements for secure firmware upgrade
   solution.
   -

   Define a general architecture that enables secure IoT firmware upgrade
   describing involved elements, security threats, update server discovery =
and
   assumptions.
   -

   Document that describes the data model  that captures metadata and
   security properties about the firmware in the form of a manifest.
   -

   Define one or more encoding formats for the manifest.
   -

   Document describing use of existing transport and protocol mechanisms to
   locate and download the firmware.
   -

   A best current practices document that defines firmware installation
   process on the IoT device.


I believe something on the similar lines clearly identifies the working
objectives and deliverables for this effort.

Cheers
Suhas Nandakumar

--001a113ef980a8021a055e9ad501
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Hello All<=
/span>
The current chart=
er has following text on the deliverables for this working group. Having ex=
plicitly listing out of the objectives might be really helpful here. 
Also the current text =
misses elements on firmware server discovery that gathered support during t=
he BOF discussions as seen in the current charter text
"""
In particular =
this group aims to publish several documents, namely:
- An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description=
 of the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions.
- One or more manifest format specifications.=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0"""
Below (in italiciz=
ed) is an  an attempt to help clarify the WG objectives. Please let me know=
 your thoughts.
=C2=A0
 T=
his WG will work on developing an interoperable secure firmware upgrade sol=
ution for IoT devices that are constrained in their resources (such as RAM,=
 Flash). The solution must enable firmware upgrades for the IoT devices und=
er various deployment options (such as, deployments under constrained netwo=
rk access typically controlled by an Enterprise IT department or factory OT=
 group as well as with open Internet access deployments).
An extensible manifest f=
ormat to describe metadata about the firmware and its security properties w=
ill be developed by this WG. The working group will also develop and archit=
ect solution that enable the IoT devices to locate the firmware update serv=
er (and manifest) via existing transport protocol mechanisms.
In particular, this =
WG will perform the following work:
  • Document that defines the requirements for secure firmware upgra=
de solution.
  • Define a general architecture that enables secure IoT =
firmware upgrade describing involved elements, security threats, update ser=
ver discovery and assumptions.
  • Document that describes the data mod=
el =C2=A0that captures metadata and security properties about the firmware =
in the form of a manifest.
  • Define one or more encoding formats for =
the manifest.
  • Document describing use of existing transport and pr=
otocol mechanisms to locate and download the firmware.
  • A best cur=
rent practices document that defines firmware installation process on the I=
oT device.
=

I believe something on the similar lines clearly iden=
tifies the working objectives and deliverables for this effort.

C=
heers
Suhas Nandakumar



--001a113ef980a8021a055e9ad501--


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:40:56 -0800
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To: suit@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043eca8cdcef4d055e9ad95e"
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Subject: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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Hi,

Current charter says

""" A lower number of formats is preferred to reduce code size for
supporting decoders on devices receiving a manifest and to maximize
interoperability of solutions

"""

I don=E2=80=99t think this is applicable since a device will support just o=
ne
format, The multiplicity of the formats is needed on the Firmware server to
support devices with different capabilities on the manifest encoding
format. This comment in the charter seems incorrect.


Cheers

Suhas Nandakumar

--f403043eca8cdcef4d055e9ad95e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hi, 
Current charter says
"""
A lower number of formats is preferred to reduc=
e code size for supporting decoders on devices receiving a manifest and to =
maximize interoperability of solutions
"""=C2=A0
I don=E2=80=99t think this is appli=
cable since a device will support just one format, The multiplicity of the =
formats is needed on the Firmware server to support devices with different =
capabilities on the manifest encoding format. This comment in the charter s=
eems incorrect.

Chee=
rs
Suhas Nandakumar
=



--f403043eca8cdcef4d055e9ad95e--


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:43:46 -0800
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To: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Multisource signed manifest and permission model
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Hi All,

The current charter says the following about allowing manifest and firmware
signed by different sources and having an expressive permissions model.

"""

To support a wide range of deployment scenarios, the formats are expected
to be expressive enough to allow the use of different software sources and
permission models.

"""


I think the whole idea of multiple people signing is very unclear on the
requirements and its applicability or its widespread use. Most common
deployments today follow the model of single vendor signing the firmware. A
certification lab might certify that a given version meets some
requirements and and an operator might use that information to decide what
version they deploy but neither the certification lab or the operator sign
anything.

I propose that the WG should reconsider this requirement for scoping
purposes and should consider multi-vendor signing/permissions model  as a
future extension instead. This should be removed unless we can specify what
the need is and be clear on the trust models supported.


Cheers
Suhas Nandakumar

--94eb2c047deafc65b6055e9ae3e8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi All,
The curren=
t charter says the following about allowing manifest and firmware signed by=
 different sources and having an expressive permissions model.
"""
To sup=
port a wide range of deployment scenarios, the formats are expected to be e=
xpressive enough to allow the use of different software sources and permiss=
ion models. 
"""
=
=C2=A0
I think the whole idea of multiple people si=
gning is very unclear on the requirements and its applicability or its wide=
spread use. Most common deployments today follow the model of single vendor=
 signing the firmware. A certification lab might  that a given version meets some requi=
rements and and an operator might use that information to decide what versi=
on they deploy but  neither the certification lab or the operator sign anything. 

I propose that the WG should reconsider this requirement for =
scoping purposes and should consider multi-vendor signing/permissions model=
 =C2=A0as a future extension instead. This should be removed unless we can specify what the ne=
ed is and be clear on the trust models supported. 


Cheers<=
/span>
Suhas Nandakumar<=
/span>


--94eb2c047deafc65b6055e9ae3e8--


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:45:06 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: suit@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403045d7a24ca4d15055e9ae8cd"
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Subject: [Suit] Suit Charter: WG Relationships to Others
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Hello All


Current charter text says the following on the matter in the subject

"""

This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors
and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems.

"""


I suggest that it is more important for this group=E2=80=99s success is als=
o to
maintain relationships with the people that actually build and deploy IOT
devices and these should also be added here.


Cheers

Suhas Nandakumar

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Hello All

Current ch=
arter text says the following on the matter in the subject
"""
This group will aim to maintain a close relat=
ionship with silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems.
"""

I suggest that it is more important for this group=E2=
=80=99s success is also to maintain relationships with the people that actu=
ally build and deploy IOT devices and these should also be added here.

Cheers
Suhas Nandakumar



--f403045d7a24ca4d15055e9ae8cd--


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To: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] Suit Charter: IOTSU Workshop information in the Charter
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Hello All

I am trying to get my head around the purpose of the following text in the
charter about IOTSU workshop to the WG objectives and deliverables. If we
think capturing IOTSU workshop background aids in WG objectives, we might
have to reword the current text to capture the intent. Otherwise, i propose
removing the below text from the charter.

=E2=80=9CIn June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a worksh=
op on
'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place at
Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland. The main goal of the workshop was to
foster a discussion on requirements, challenges, and solutions for bringing
software and firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop also made clear
that there are challenges with misaligned incentives and complex value
chains. It is nevertheless seen as important to create=E2=80=9D

Thanks
Suhas Nandakumar

--001a1143e9b60ff455055e9aec53
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Hello All<=
/span>
I am trying to ge=
t my head around the purpose of the following text in the charter about IOT=
SU workshop to the WG objectives and deliverables. If we think capturing IO=
TSU workshop background aids in WG objectives, we might have to reword the =
current text to capture the intent. Otherwise, i propose removing the below=
 text from the charter.
=E2=80=9CIn June of =
2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on 'Internet =
of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place at Trinity C=
ollege in Dublin, Ireland. The main goal of the workshop was to foster a di=
scussion on requirements, challenges, and solutions for bringing software a=
nd firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop also made clear that ther=
e are challenges with misaligned incentives and complex value chains. It is=
 nevertheless seen as important to create=E2=80=9D

Thanks
<=
div>Suhas Nandakumar



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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Suhas Nandakumar 
cc: suit@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
    > I would like to propose following addition to the above list

    > *   Mechanisms to discover new firmware is available and the location
    > to download it from

I'm actually okay with this in the charter, provided that we don't invent
anything new.   I can imagine doint this with CoAP OBSERVE, DNS-SD, HTTP requests,
and I'm sure I'll think of four more in a minute.

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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References:  <589.1511394367@obiwan.sandelman.ca>
From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 15:50:53 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Michael Richardson 
Cc: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Hi Micheal,

 My thinking was same on not inventing new mechanism and re-use existing
ones.

Cheers
Suhas

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 3:46 PM, Michael Richardson 
wrote:

>
> Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
>     > I would like to propose following addition to the above list
>
>     > *   Mechanisms to discover new firmware is available and the location
>     > to download it from
>
> I'm actually okay with this in the charter, provided that we don't invent
> anything new.   I can imagine doint this with CoAP OBSERVE, DNS-SD, HTTP
> requests,
> and I'm sure I'll think of four more in a minute.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>
>
>
>

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References:   <48439ED2-6618-4987-BC56-0D059F012890@tzi.org>   
From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 08:36:04 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Hannes Tschofenig 
Cc: Carsten Bormann , "suit@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1149815c49fa72055ea9081b"
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 8:13 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <
Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

> Hi Suhas,
>
>
>
> The way we would like this to work is not to have the update server creat=
e
> these manifests in real-time, based on what the device asks for. Instead,
> the manifests are created and signed by the developer (using a tool or a
> web service). The update server is mainly a repository. This approach
> provides better security.
>
>
>


Hello Hannes,

  I think i am not stating it should be real-time created either and you
are right that update server is just a repository. I don't think I am
disagreeing on that either.
  More than one encoding is created an stored on the server



> If you look back in the history of the IETF security work then defining
> multiple, similar solution has not been a great success story.
>
>
>
> Ciao
>
> Hannes
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Suhas Nandakumar [mailto:suhasietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 23 November 2017 16:52
> *To:* Hannes Tschofenig
> *Cc:* Carsten Bormann; suit@ietf.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <
> Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Carsten,
>
> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of the
> manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).
>
> For us offering operating systems we fear that one customer will want
> ASN.1 and the other want JSON, like they do with IoT protocols (e.g., CoA=
P
> and MQTT) today as well. The result is that we have to support everything
> and while they will not be compiled into the code at the same time they
> need to be available and need to be maintained.
>
> When you then update a fleet of devices, some of them may support foo and
> some bar. Imagine a vehicle that comes with many different processors and
> they require a mixture of different formats. The backend infrastructure
> then needs to know what format is supported by which device/processor.
>
>
>
> The device will ask for the format that it supports. Say, the device need=
s
> manifest in CBOR format for example
>
>  The device is basically dumb in that context and I am saying we don't
> need to complicate that. Let the burden of having multiple encodings
> support be on the update server and the device will ask the only thing it
> supports.
>
>
>
>
> I hope this makes sense.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]
> Sent: 23 November 2017 09:02
> To: Hannes Tschofenig
> Cc: Suhas Nandakumar; suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
>
> On Nov 23, 2017, at 08:31, Hannes Tschofenig 
> wrote:
> >
> > Do you agree that having multiple formats will cause additional pain an=
d
> lower interoperability?
>
> I=E2=80=99m not Suhas, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that while this =
is trivially
> true, it may also be trivially irrelevant, as demonstrated by a sentence
> like:
>
> > having both UDP and TCP as transport protocols for IP will cause
> additional pain and lower interoperability
>
> (I=E2=80=99m not sure what =E2=80=9Cformat=E2=80=9D means here; if this i=
s about serializations,
> different considerations apply than if this is about information models a=
nd
> security models.)
>
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>

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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 8:13 AM, Hannes Tschofenig &l=
t;Hannes.Tsc=
hofenig@arm.com> wrote:











Hi Suhas,



=C2=A0


The way we would like thi=
s to work is not to have the update server create these manifests in real-t=
ime, based on what the device asks for. Instead, the manifests
 are created and signed by the developer (using a tool or a web service). T=
he update server is mainly a repository. This approach provides better secu=
rity.



=C2=A0
<=
/div>


Hello Hannes,

=C2=A0 I think i am not stating it should be real-ti=
me created either and you are right that update server is just a repository=
. I don't think I am disagreeing on that either.
=C2=A0 More =
than one encoding is created an stored on the server

=C2=A0


If you look back in the h=
istory of the IETF security work then defining multiple, similar solution h=
as not been a great success story.



=C2=A0


Ciao=



Hannes


=C2=A0


<=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1f497d">=C2=A0


From: Suhas Nandakumar [mailto:suhasietf@gmail.com]


Sent: 23 November 2017 16:52

To: Hannes Tschofenig

Cc: Carsten Bormann; suit@ietf.org


Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats


=C2=A0




=C2=A0




=C2=A0




On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig =
<Hannes.T=
schofenig@arm.com> wrote:


Hi Carsten,



Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of the m=
anifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).



For us offering operating systems we fear that one customer will want ASN.1=
 and the other want JSON, like they do with IoT protocols (e.g., CoAP and M=
QTT) today as well. The result is that we have to support everything and wh=
ile they will not be compiled into
 the code at the same time they need to be available and need to be maintai=
ned.



When you then update a fleet of devices, some of them may support foo and s=
ome bar. Imagine a vehicle that comes with many different processors and th=
ey require a mixture of different formats. The backend infrastructure then =
needs to know what format is supported
 by which device/processor.




=C2=A0






The device will ask for the format that it supports.=
 Say, the device needs manifest in CBOR format for example





=C2=A0The device is basically dumb in that context a=
nd I am saying we don't need to complicate that. Let the burden of havi=
ng multiple encodings support be on the update server and the device will a=
sk the only thing it supports.=C2=A0






=C2=A0








I hope this makes sense.



Ciao

Hannes





-----Original Message-----

From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]

Sent: 23 November 2017 09:02

To: Hannes Tschofenig

Cc: Suhas Nandakumar; su=
it@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats



On Nov 23, 2017, at 08:31, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrot=
e:

>

> Do you agree that having multiple formats will cause additional pain a=
nd lower interoperability?



I=E2=80=99m not Suhas, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that while this is=
 trivially true, it may also be trivially irrelevant, as demonstrated by a =
sentence like:



> having both UDP and TCP as transport protocols for IP will cause addit=
ional pain and lower interoperability



(I=E2=80=99m not sure what =E2=80=9Cformat=E2=80=9D means here; if this is =
about serializations, different considerations apply than if this is about =
information models and security models.)



Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten








IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.









=C2=A0







IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.







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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Suhas Nandakumar 
CC: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Suhas Nandakumar 
CC: Carsten Bormann , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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To: Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" 
References:  <589.1511394367@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <512a039b-ca00-5cf7-bee1-988942e4656b@sit.fraunhofer.de>    <9ed2fd3e-4fe9-28dd-1b29-e93c2d9880d8@sit.fraunhofer.de> <93c16682-3ee7-9e0e-28c4-f03bc724b0a0@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
From: Henk Birkholz 
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 18:05:36 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Hm... if that is not clear by reading the draft, I would very welcome a 
review, Hannes!

Software Identifiers (SWID) are documents that provide metadata about 
software components. The traditional audience (and I mean "draft 
readers", not SWID consumers) are the entities creating and or 
distributing software to be installed on (composite) system entities.



Some more detail:

SWID documents can be created by the manufacturer/vendor/distributor and 
can be signed (CoSWID also be encrypted). If they include, for examples 
hash-values about the software components and are signed they can 
provide so called "golden measurements"/"well known values" -> reference 
integrity measurements manifests (RIM manifests). In general, they can 
express a multitude of additional metadata (e.g. various types of 
versions, the roles of the creator or issuer, etc.), and semantic 
dependencies between software components (e.g. patches, requires, 
supersedes, etc.), as well as the different forms in which software 
components exist in (installation package, installed, associated with 
license, even running). SWID documents can also be created by "everyone 
else", e.g. by 3rd party products on the system entities - and therefore 
can compose Evidence.

StrongSwan, for example, an open source IPSec VPN solution 
(https://www.strongswan.org/), includes a SWID generator on the client 
side to provide evidence for network access control.

There are various usage scenarios - one of them: a Firmware Update Manifest.

SWID are defined by ISO (19770-2:2015 Software Identification Tags). 
There is a freely available schema for XML encoding 
(http://standards.iso.org/iso/19770/-2/2015-current/schema.xsd) and a 
guidance document of how to use them by NIST 
(http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf). Concise 
Software Identifier use CBOR/CDDL instead of XML/XSD, include 
clarification provided by NIST about firmware and signatures, reduce 
some ambiguity that is found in the XSD, etc 
(https://github.com/sacmwg/draft-ietf-sacm-coswid).


Viele Grüße,

Henk





On 11/23/2017 05:29 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> Maybe you need to explain what you are doing with your Concise Software Identifier draft and who the target audience was for it.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
> Sent: 23 November 2017 17:26
> To: suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
> 
> And again... I meant SUIT, this now seems to be stuck in my head *sigh*
> 
> On 11/23/2017 05:21 PM, Henk Birkholz wrote:
>> Oh Im sorry, I was confusing TEEP and SUIT again... my fault! :)
>>
>> So please %s/TEEP/SUIT/g
>>
>> That said, we added a firmware resource collection to the Concise
>> Software Identifier draft in early February this year, which enables
>> this document type to be used as a (Reference Integrity Measurement)
>> Manifest and/or Container for firmware components.
>>
>> When the TEEP BoF formed, we separated that part from the core data
>> definition and moved it as an extension data definition into an
>> appendix of the same draft in expectation of more input.
>>
>> As we aim for WGLC in December this year (and there will be no
>> decisions on firmware related content available until then for sure,
>> unfortunately), we will now only include a minimal set of core
>> attributes about firmware resources in the core document and create
>> another draft that will extend this resource collection in order to
>> become a TEEP conform representation later on.
>>
>>
>> Viele Grüße,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> p.s.
>>
>> The contradiction I see is that you could use ASN.1 (which is not a
>> format/encoding - which I was trying to hint at wrt your list of
>> formats, but Carsten was way more elaborate as me on that topic as I
>> just saw) in a CMS scenario, but cannot (only) use ASN.1, if you want
>> to accommodate more than encodings that are typically defined via the
>> ASN.1 data model language.
>>
>> Typically, you (have to / should?) decide on a "clever intermediate
>> language", if you do the latter, or am I missing something here? You
>> could use multiple languages at once - I guess - and try to keep them
>> aligned during the design period of the vocabulary, but I would not
>> like to be the person who has to do that.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/23/2017 04:27 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>> Hi Henk,
>>>
>>>> Hello Hannes,
>>>
>>>> tl;dr I though the consensus was going into the direction of a small
>>>> list of formats. I consider this to be correct unless consensus
>>>> shows otherwise.
>>>
>>> [Hannes] That would be good. But let's see when we get to the point
>>> of selecting.
>>>
>>>
>>> The remainder of this email are just observations:
>>>
>>> This statement
>>>
>>> On 11/23/2017 11:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>> I may be hard to believe but some companies are actually interested
>>>> in bringing a standardized manifest format to the market.
>>>
>>> in combination with these statements
>>>
>>> On 11/23/2017 10:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>> There is separate text in the charter that says the group will pick
>>>> one or multiple encoding formats.
>>>
>>> On 11/23/2017 09:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings
>>>> of the manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).
>>>
>>> seem to contradict each other?
>>>
>>>
>>> Either there is a standardized manifest format, or there are multiple
>>> based on the same data model? Also including ASN.1 in the list is
>>> somehow confusing to me. If we are talking about format here, I think
>>> ASN.1 does not fit that list.
>>>
>>> [Hannes] I don't see the contradiction. When we submitted our initial
>>> draft version, which described a solution based on ASN1./DER + CMS,
>>> some folks said "I want JSON/JOSE" and yet others said "I want
>>> CBOR/COSE". Hence, the charter text changed by delaying the decision
>>> to a later time in the working group. What matters ultimately is what
>>> one has to implement rather than what clever intermediate language we
>>> use or how we structure documents.
>>>
>>> And it might also sound surprising, but because some companies (e.g.
>>> a few that rely on SOTA) are interested in to market solutions, we
>>> started to address this in drafts before the first TEEP BoF. Now that
>>> TEEP is emerging, we are splitting the work wrt firmware, and
>>> suspended some of it to wait for TEEP manifest definition output in
>>> order to retain interoperability - which is effectively a delay
>>> already (but addressing a bigger group of stakeholder seems vital,
>>> so... viable & necessary).
>>>
>>> [Hannes] I am not sure I understood this statement. The Open Trust
>>> Protocol, which is the only solution so far submitted to the TEEP
>>> group, does not define a manifest format. At the TEEP BOF folks
>>> argued that it would be a good idea to re-use the manifest format
>>> from SUIT in TEEP but that hasn't been done so far (although I think
>>> it is a good idea).
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>> Hannes
>>>
>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Suit mailing list
>>> Suit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose
>>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or
>>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


From nobody Thu Nov 23 09:35:49 2017
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Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
    > I am bit confused on the actual process followed in updating the Suit
    > Charter. It looks like the current charter doesn=E2=80=99t seem to re=
flect
    > fully the consensus or discussion points from the BOF.

I think that you should consider that the text gets uploaded on a
quasi-periodic basis so that we can all be talking about the same thing.

    > Also it would have been of great help if the updated charter was sent
    > to the SUIT mailing list for questions/consensus before getting
    > uploaded to the datatracker. I had to accidentally find it embedded in
    > the BOF report sent to saag mailing list.

Yes, I agree that this is less than ideal.
But, for many people this is a down week, both because of US Thanksgiving a=
nd
because it's the week after the IETF meeting, and many people need recovery
time, so please be patient.

    > Should questions/comments about the current charter sent to Suit
    > mailing list be the right way to follow up ? Also, Who is actually
    > updating the charter?

Generally, the BOF chairs and/or proponents do that in consultation with the
sponsoring AD and the ML.

=2D-
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From nobody Thu Nov 23 09:44:51 2017
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Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
    > Below (in italicized) is an an attempt to help clarify the WG

Not everyone will see your italics.
Please stick to text/plan if you want to be universally understood.

    > objectives. Please let me know your thoughts.

I don't like putting the number of documents into the charter as it
restricts the WG from splitting or merging documents as it sees fit.

Documents will get listed in the milestones which are much more easily
mutable (they require only the AD to approve).

Instead, I'd rather discuss the topics that need to be covered.

    > This WG will work on developing an interoperable secure firmware
    > upgrade solution for IoT devices that are constrained in their
    > resources (such as RAM, Flash). The solution must enable firmware
    > upgrades for the IoT devices under various deployment options (such
    > as, deployments under constrained network access typically controlled
    > by an Enterprise IT department or factory OT group as well as with
    > open Internet access deployments).

I like that you have included Enterprise IT and OT in this list.
References to IOTSF meeting and RFC7228 terminology as was in the posted
document will help many people keep us in the right context.

The reference to 4108 as posted online is now much less prescriptive, and I
actually can live with the sentence that was there:
         RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic
         Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years have
         passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater experience with IoT
         deployments has led to additional functionality, requiring a contemporary
         standardized solution to be defined.

as it no longer mandates us to do anything other than acknoledge that it
existed, and might have some good ideas.

    > An extensible manifest format to describe metadata about the firmware
    > and its security properties will be developed by this WG. The working
    > group will also develop and architect solution that enable the IoT
    > devices to locate the firmware update server (and manifest) via
    > existing transport protocol mechanisms.

    > In particular, this WG will perform the following work:

    > *   Document that defines the requirements for secure firmware upgrade
    > solution.

"The requirements for secure firmware upgrade will be documented"

    > *   Define a general architecture that enables secure IoT firmware
    > upgrade describing involved elements, security threats, update
    > server discovery and assumptions.

    > *   Document that describes the data model that captures metadata and
    > security properties about the firmware in the form of a manifest.

"An extensible data model that captures metadata and security properties
about the firmware will be developed and codified in a manifest"

    > *   Define one or more encoding formats for the manifest.

    > *   Document describing use of existing transport and protocol
    > mechanisms to locate and download the firmware.

"One or more optional mechanisms will be described that use existing
transport and discovery protocols to locate and transfer the firmware"

    > *   A best current practices document that defines firmware
    > installation process on the IoT device.

I'm unclear what this means.  I suggest that it be left out, and instead we
write:

"Future work, presently out of scope, could include a best current practices
document that defines firmware installation process on the IoT device."


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From nobody Thu Nov 23 09:46:40 2017
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Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
    > """ A lower number of formats is preferred to reduce code size for
    > supporting decoders on devices receiving a manifest and to maximize
    > interoperability of solutions

    > """

    > I don=E2=80=99t think this is applicable since a device will support =
just one
    > format, The multiplicity of the formats is needed on the Firmware
    > server to support devices with different capabilities on the manifest
    > encoding format. This comment in the charter seems incorrect.

I have made that point as well, and I think it bears repeating.

I understand that operating systems vendors might have to maintain more than
one set of code (of which they will compile one or the other).

Frankly I'd rather have two simple formats that as easily (code) reviewed
than a single format that has gotten complex due to hacks.

=2D-
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
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Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
    > Yes, there are lots of details to discuss but do you think that any of
    > this should go into the charter (given that the current version of the
    > charter already says that we will discuss this and pick one or multiple
    > formats)?

The charter needs to say one of:
     1) the format shall be X. (at one point it said to enhance 4108, so
          ASN.1 was the data model and DER was the serialization).

     2) there shall be one format, please hold taste test.
          (cf: http://www.redballoon.net/humor/alice.txt )

     3) there can be many serializations, but only one data model.

     4) whatever you want.

I prefer (3), btw.

I have good experience with YANG as the data model, and CBOR+COSE as the
serialization using SID based keys.
{I could live with CMS signed JSON if it wasn't the only possibility}

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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
    > The way we would like this to work is not to have the update server
    > create these manifests in real-time, based on what the device asks
    > for. Instead, the manifests are created and signed by the developer
    > (using a tool or a web service). The update server is mainly a
    > repository. This approach provides better security.

Yes, and the developer knows what the device is going to ask for, so this
isn't a problem.

The reason the device should still ask is because it is entirely possible
that devices might evolve over time and change their default.


--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
    > the problem is the slippery slope here: as mentioned on the mailing
    > list (not by me) it is not only about discovering the server but very
    > quickly you are talking about "how do I push firmware updates to
    > devices (instead of just polling)", "how do I learn what capabilities

That's why we argue about the charter now and not leave it open.

    > I am wondering why you don't create your own working group just to work
    > on this topic. This would help to create more focused work.

If we would like the same device to be deployable and upgradeable in
unmanaged (call home to vendor) and air-gap firewall situations, then we had
better not bake in the update URL.

Given that the updates are properly signed from an authorized entity, it
doesn't matter where they come from.

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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To: Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" 
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From: Henk Birkholz 
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 18:59:25 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Hello Hannes,

if you (or - by any means - anyone interested) find the time, please 
have a look at the editor's version found at github. Thank you!


Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11/23/2017 06:54 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> Give me a few days to digest this info and to read the referenced documents. I have not paid attention to the SACM group since I wasn't aware that it has anything to do with IoT.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Birkholz [mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de]
> Sent: 23 November 2017 18:06
> To: Hannes Tschofenig; suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
> 
> Hm... if that is not clear by reading the draft, I would very welcome a review, Hannes!
> 
> Software Identifiers (SWID) are documents that provide metadata about software components. The traditional audience (and I mean "draft readers", not SWID consumers) are the entities creating and or distributing software to be installed on (composite) system entities.
> 
> 
> 
> Some more detail:
> 
> SWID documents can be created by the manufacturer/vendor/distributor and can be signed (CoSWID also be encrypted). If they include, for examples hash-values about the software components and are signed they can provide so called "golden measurements"/"well known values" -> reference integrity measurements manifests (RIM manifests). In general, they can express a multitude of additional metadata (e.g. various types of versions, the roles of the creator or issuer, etc.), and semantic dependencies between software components (e.g. patches, requires, supersedes, etc.), as well as the different forms in which software components exist in (installation package, installed, associated with license, even running). SWID documents can also be created by "everyone else", e.g. by 3rd party products on the system entities - and therefore can compose Evidence.
> 
> StrongSwan, for example, an open source IPSec VPN solution (https://www.strongswan.org/), includes a SWID generator on the client side to provide evidence for network access control.
> 
> There are various usage scenarios - one of them: a Firmware Update Manifest.
> 
> SWID are defined by ISO (19770-2:2015 Software Identification Tags).
> There is a freely available schema for XML encoding
> (http://standards.iso.org/iso/19770/-2/2015-current/schema.xsd) and a guidance document of how to use them by NIST (http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf). Concise Software Identifier use CBOR/CDDL instead of XML/XSD, include clarification provided by NIST about firmware and signatures, reduce some ambiguity that is found in the XSD, etc (https://github.com/sacmwg/draft-ietf-sacm-coswid).
> 
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/23/2017 05:29 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi Henk,
>>
>> Maybe you need to explain what you are doing with your Concise Software Identifier draft and who the target audience was for it.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
>> Sent: 23 November 2017 17:26
>> To: suit@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and
>> Download Mechanism
>>
>> And again... I meant SUIT, this now seems to be stuck in my head
>> *sigh*
>>
>> On 11/23/2017 05:21 PM, Henk Birkholz wrote:
>>> Oh Im sorry, I was confusing TEEP and SUIT again... my fault! :)
>>>
>>> So please %s/TEEP/SUIT/g
>>>
>>> That said, we added a firmware resource collection to the Concise
>>> Software Identifier draft in early February this year, which enables
>>> this document type to be used as a (Reference Integrity Measurement)
>>> Manifest and/or Container for firmware components.
>>>
>>> When the TEEP BoF formed, we separated that part from the core data
>>> definition and moved it as an extension data definition into an
>>> appendix of the same draft in expectation of more input.
>>>
>>> As we aim for WGLC in December this year (and there will be no
>>> decisions on firmware related content available until then for sure,
>>> unfortunately), we will now only include a minimal set of core
>>> attributes about firmware resources in the core document and create
>>> another draft that will extend this resource collection in order to
>>> become a TEEP conform representation later on.
>>>
>>>
>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>> p.s.
>>>
>>> The contradiction I see is that you could use ASN.1 (which is not a
>>> format/encoding - which I was trying to hint at wrt your list of
>>> formats, but Carsten was way more elaborate as me on that topic as I
>>> just saw) in a CMS scenario, but cannot (only) use ASN.1, if you want
>>> to accommodate more than encodings that are typically defined via the
>>> ASN.1 data model language.
>>>
>>> Typically, you (have to / should?) decide on a "clever intermediate
>>> language", if you do the latter, or am I missing something here? You
>>> could use multiple languages at once - I guess - and try to keep them
>>> aligned during the design period of the vocabulary, but I would not
>>> like to be the person who has to do that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/23/2017 04:27 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Hannes,
>>>>
>>>>> tl;dr I though the consensus was going into the direction of a
>>>>> small list of formats. I consider this to be correct unless
>>>>> consensus shows otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> [Hannes] That would be good. But let's see when we get to the point
>>>> of selecting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The remainder of this email are just observations:
>>>>
>>>> This statement
>>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2017 11:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>>> I may be hard to believe but some companies are actually interested
>>>>> in bringing a standardized manifest format to the market.
>>>>
>>>> in combination with these statements
>>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2017 10:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>>> There is separate text in the charter that says the group will pick
>>>>> one or multiple encoding formats.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2017 09:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>>> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings
>>>>> of the manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).
>>>>
>>>> seem to contradict each other?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Either there is a standardized manifest format, or there are
>>>> multiple based on the same data model? Also including ASN.1 in the
>>>> list is somehow confusing to me. If we are talking about format
>>>> here, I think
>>>> ASN.1 does not fit that list.
>>>>
>>>> [Hannes] I don't see the contradiction. When we submitted our
>>>> initial draft version, which described a solution based on ASN1./DER
>>>> + CMS, some folks said "I want JSON/JOSE" and yet others said "I
>>>> want CBOR/COSE". Hence, the charter text changed by delaying the
>>>> decision to a later time in the working group. What matters
>>>> ultimately is what one has to implement rather than what clever
>>>> intermediate language we use or how we structure documents.
>>>>
>>>> And it might also sound surprising, but because some companies (e.g.
>>>> a few that rely on SOTA) are interested in to market solutions, we
>>>> started to address this in drafts before the first TEEP BoF. Now
>>>> that TEEP is emerging, we are splitting the work wrt firmware, and
>>>> suspended some of it to wait for TEEP manifest definition output in
>>>> order to retain interoperability - which is effectively a delay
>>>> already (but addressing a bigger group of stakeholder seems vital,
>>>> so... viable & necessary).
>>>>
>>>> [Hannes] I am not sure I understood this statement. The Open Trust
>>>> Protocol, which is the only solution so far submitted to the TEEP
>>>> group, does not define a manifest format. At the TEEP BOF folks
>>>> argued that it would be a good idea to re-use the manifest format
>>>> from SUIT in TEEP but that hasn't been done so far (although I think
>>>> it is a good idea).
>>>>
>>>> Ciao
>>>> Hannes
>>>>
>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Suit mailing list
>>>> Suit@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose
>>>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store
>>>> or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Suit mailing list
>>> Suit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Carsten Bormann  wrote:
    > If CoAP (or the CoRE discovery mechanisms) have gaps or shortcomings
    > for applications that need to do firmware transfer, I think the CoRE WG
    > would be interested to hear about that.  A draft not unlike
    > draft-birkholz-yang-push-coap-problemstatement would be wonderful to
    > prime this discussion.

Carsten, the discovery mechanism might be as simple as stating what
parameters to use for the CoRE discovery process.

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Hi Michael,

None of this answers the question why you are not doing your discovery work=
 in one of the existing groups (CORE, DHC, ...) or create a new working gro=
up.

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
Sent: 23 November 2017 18:58
To: suit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Me=
chanism


Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
    > the problem is the slippery slope here: as mentioned on the mailing
    > list (not by me) it is not only about discovering the server but very
    > quickly you are talking about "how do I push firmware updates to
    > devices (instead of just polling)", "how do I learn what capabilities

That's why we argue about the charter now and not leave it open.

    > I am wondering why you don't create your own working group just to wo=
rk
    > on this topic. This would help to create more focused work.

If we would like the same device to be deployable and upgradeable in unmana=
ged (call home to vendor) and air-gap firewall situations, then we had bett=
er not bake in the update URL.

Given that the updates are properly signed from an authorized entity, it do=
esn't matter where they come from.

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works  -=3D =
IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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From: Michael Richardson 
To: "suit\@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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Carsten Bormann  wrote:
    >> As mentioned to Suhas the purpose of mentioning RFC 4108 and also the
    >>IAB workshop is to highlight that the IETF has been looking into this
    >>topic before. You prefer not to mention anything about prior IETF work
    >>in this area to the reader. Is that correct?

    > I=E2=80=99m not Henk, but the charter is there to guide (and constrai=
n) the work of the WG.

    > I believe it is good if WG participants know about RFC 4108 and the
    > IoTSU workshop.

+1.

    > The reference to IoTSU is somewhat unambiguous, but, as I mentioned
    > previously a few times already, it is too easy to raise the
    > misconception that SUIT is the RFC 4108 tweaking WG.  The sense of the
    > BOF in Singapore was quite different.

I am happy with the reference that occurs in the text posted on the
datatracker now.  I was unhappy with the prior version.

=2D-
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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To: Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" 
References:  <589.1511394367@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <512a039b-ca00-5cf7-bee1-988942e4656b@sit.fraunhofer.de>    <9ed2fd3e-4fe9-28dd-1b29-e93c2d9880d8@sit.fraunhofer.de> <93c16682-3ee7-9e0e-28c4-f03bc724b0a0@sit.fraunhofer.de>  <4efd6388-61e1-a437-99c8-f3df5aa40fcf@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
From: Henk Birkholz 
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 19:15:43 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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And to add why this work is done in SACM. There are a lot more reasons 
than "IoT" to use a concise representation.

The RIM manifests of software components (especially those deployed in 
file systems) can become quite... extensive. In some usage scenarios it 
is therefore useful, to just reduce the size of the data in motion, e.g. 
TEE attestations of mobile phones or thousands of VNF in a cloud domain.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11/23/2017 06:54 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> Give me a few days to digest this info and to read the referenced documents. I have not paid attention to the SACM group since I wasn't aware that it has anything to do with IoT.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Birkholz [mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de]
> Sent: 23 November 2017 18:06
> To: Hannes Tschofenig; suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
> 
> Hm... if that is not clear by reading the draft, I would very welcome a review, Hannes!
> 
> Software Identifiers (SWID) are documents that provide metadata about software components. The traditional audience (and I mean "draft readers", not SWID consumers) are the entities creating and or distributing software to be installed on (composite) system entities.
> 
> 
> 
> Some more detail:
> 
> SWID documents can be created by the manufacturer/vendor/distributor and can be signed (CoSWID also be encrypted). If they include, for examples hash-values about the software components and are signed they can provide so called "golden measurements"/"well known values" -> reference integrity measurements manifests (RIM manifests). In general, they can express a multitude of additional metadata (e.g. various types of versions, the roles of the creator or issuer, etc.), and semantic dependencies between software components (e.g. patches, requires, supersedes, etc.), as well as the different forms in which software components exist in (installation package, installed, associated with license, even running). SWID documents can also be created by "everyone else", e.g. by 3rd party products on the system entities - and therefore can compose Evidence.
> 
> StrongSwan, for example, an open source IPSec VPN solution (https://www.strongswan.org/), includes a SWID generator on the client side to provide evidence for network access control.
> 
> There are various usage scenarios - one of them: a Firmware Update Manifest.
> 
> SWID are defined by ISO (19770-2:2015 Software Identification Tags).
> There is a freely available schema for XML encoding
> (http://standards.iso.org/iso/19770/-2/2015-current/schema.xsd) and a guidance document of how to use them by NIST (http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf). Concise Software Identifier use CBOR/CDDL instead of XML/XSD, include clarification provided by NIST about firmware and signatures, reduce some ambiguity that is found in the XSD, etc (https://github.com/sacmwg/draft-ietf-sacm-coswid).
> 
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/23/2017 05:29 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi Henk,
>>
>> Maybe you need to explain what you are doing with your Concise Software Identifier draft and who the target audience was for it.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
>> Sent: 23 November 2017 17:26
>> To: suit@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and
>> Download Mechanism
>>
>> And again... I meant SUIT, this now seems to be stuck in my head
>> *sigh*
>>
>> On 11/23/2017 05:21 PM, Henk Birkholz wrote:
>>> Oh Im sorry, I was confusing TEEP and SUIT again... my fault! :)
>>>
>>> So please %s/TEEP/SUIT/g
>>>
>>> That said, we added a firmware resource collection to the Concise
>>> Software Identifier draft in early February this year, which enables
>>> this document type to be used as a (Reference Integrity Measurement)
>>> Manifest and/or Container for firmware components.
>>>
>>> When the TEEP BoF formed, we separated that part from the core data
>>> definition and moved it as an extension data definition into an
>>> appendix of the same draft in expectation of more input.
>>>
>>> As we aim for WGLC in December this year (and there will be no
>>> decisions on firmware related content available until then for sure,
>>> unfortunately), we will now only include a minimal set of core
>>> attributes about firmware resources in the core document and create
>>> another draft that will extend this resource collection in order to
>>> become a TEEP conform representation later on.
>>>
>>>
>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>> p.s.
>>>
>>> The contradiction I see is that you could use ASN.1 (which is not a
>>> format/encoding - which I was trying to hint at wrt your list of
>>> formats, but Carsten was way more elaborate as me on that topic as I
>>> just saw) in a CMS scenario, but cannot (only) use ASN.1, if you want
>>> to accommodate more than encodings that are typically defined via the
>>> ASN.1 data model language.
>>>
>>> Typically, you (have to / should?) decide on a "clever intermediate
>>> language", if you do the latter, or am I missing something here? You
>>> could use multiple languages at once - I guess - and try to keep them
>>> aligned during the design period of the vocabulary, but I would not
>>> like to be the person who has to do that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/23/2017 04:27 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Hannes,
>>>>
>>>>> tl;dr I though the consensus was going into the direction of a
>>>>> small list of formats. I consider this to be correct unless
>>>>> consensus shows otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> [Hannes] That would be good. But let's see when we get to the point
>>>> of selecting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The remainder of this email are just observations:
>>>>
>>>> This statement
>>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2017 11:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>>> I may be hard to believe but some companies are actually interested
>>>>> in bringing a standardized manifest format to the market.
>>>>
>>>> in combination with these statements
>>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2017 10:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>>> There is separate text in the charter that says the group will pick
>>>>> one or multiple encoding formats.
>>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2017 09:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>>>> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings
>>>>> of the manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).
>>>>
>>>> seem to contradict each other?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Either there is a standardized manifest format, or there are
>>>> multiple based on the same data model? Also including ASN.1 in the
>>>> list is somehow confusing to me. If we are talking about format
>>>> here, I think
>>>> ASN.1 does not fit that list.
>>>>
>>>> [Hannes] I don't see the contradiction. When we submitted our
>>>> initial draft version, which described a solution based on ASN1./DER
>>>> + CMS, some folks said "I want JSON/JOSE" and yet others said "I
>>>> want CBOR/COSE". Hence, the charter text changed by delaying the
>>>> decision to a later time in the working group. What matters
>>>> ultimately is what one has to implement rather than what clever
>>>> intermediate language we use or how we structure documents.
>>>>
>>>> And it might also sound surprising, but because some companies (e.g.
>>>> a few that rely on SOTA) are interested in to market solutions, we
>>>> started to address this in drafts before the first TEEP BoF. Now
>>>> that TEEP is emerging, we are splitting the work wrt firmware, and
>>>> suspended some of it to wait for TEEP manifest definition output in
>>>> order to retain interoperability - which is effectively a delay
>>>> already (but addressing a bigger group of stakeholder seems vital,
>>>> so... viable & necessary).
>>>>
>>>> [Hannes] I am not sure I understood this statement. The Open Trust
>>>> Protocol, which is the only solution so far submitted to the TEEP
>>>> group, does not define a manifest format. At the TEEP BOF folks
>>>> argued that it would be a good idea to re-use the manifest format
>>>> from SUIT in TEEP but that hasn't been done so far (although I think
>>>> it is a good idea).
>>>>
>>>> Ciao
>>>> Hannes
>>>>
>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Suit mailing list
>>>> Suit@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose
>>>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store
>>>> or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Suit mailing list
>>> Suit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


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To: "suit\@ietf.org" 
cc: Henk Birkholz 
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Henk Birkholz  wrote:
    > SWID are defined by ISO (19770-2:2015 Software Identification Tags). There is
    > a freely available schema for XML encoding
    > (http://standards.iso.org/iso/19770/-2/2015-current/schema.xsd) and a
    > guidance document of how to use them by NIST
    > (http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf). Concise Software
    > Identifier use CBOR/CDDL instead of XML/XSD, include clarification provided
    > by NIST about firmware and signatures, reduce some ambiguity that is found in
    > the XSD, etc (https://github.com/sacmwg/draft-ietf-sacm-coswid).

Very cool, thank for posting this.
I was unaware of this work.

It seems like COSWID is so close to the manifest that it should be extended
rather than replaced.

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Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
    > None of this answers the question why you are not doing your discovery
    > work in one of the existing groups (CORE, DHC, ...) or create a new
    > working group.

Because we don't to invent a new discovery protocol.
For that we might need a new WG.
We just want to *use* one in an standard way.
It could be as simple as multicast CoAP for /.well-known/core?rt=suit,
or use DNS-SD.

This might need an IANA action for instance, or we might need to declare a
category of service names.  And perhaps how to interpret the results.

Here, for instance, is the text from BRSKI about discovery using DNS-SD:

   The Pledge MAY perform DNS-based Service Discovery [RFC6763] over
   Multicast DNS [RFC6762] searching for the service
   "_bootstrapks._tcp.local.".

{In fact, that's optional, we use GRASP discovery normatively}
That's it (well, we go on a bunch about congestion concerns, and then IPv4
considerations..., but that's all informative)


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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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>
> When you then update a fleet of devices, some of them may support foo and
> some bar. Imagine a vehicle that comes with many different processors and
> they require a mixture of different formats. The backend infrastructure
> then needs to know what format is supported by which device/processor.
>

The Uptane project , which handles secure
updates for automobiles intentionally doesn't standardize the format.  In a
car, the communication protocol used by the ECUs is effectively defined by
the Ford, GM, etc. even though most of the parts are made by vendors.  When
a vendor sells the same part to different automakers, they will change
their part to support the different formats needed.

In Uptane, we originally had the same goal of a standardized format which
Hannes mentioned.  However, when we started to work with the automakers, we
learned that a standardized format was a show stopper.  They wanted the
flexibility to customize things slightly for their environment because the
networks and existing toolchains are so different.

This has made testing implementations of Uptane a bit more difficult, but
it seems like we've had better adoption as a result.

Thanks,
Justin

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When you then update a fleet =
of devices, some of them may support foo and some bar. Imagine a vehicle th=
at comes with many different processors and they require a mixture of diffe=
rent formats. The backend infrastructure then needs to know what format is =
supported by which device/processor.






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To: Justin Cappos , Hannes Tschofenig 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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Hi Justin,

I guess there is also a different interpretation about what format means
here.

If you look at draft-moran-suit-manifest-00 you will see that the
content maps to your terminology of "metadata" (for which you happen to
have used ASN.1).

Hence, I believe we are exactly on the same page as far as the goals and
values for standardization goes.

Ciao
Hannes

On 11/25/2017 07:12 AM, Justin Cappos wrote:
>     When you then update a fleet of devices, some of them may support
>     foo and some bar. Imagine a vehicle that comes with many different
>     processors and they require a mixture of different formats. The
>     backend infrastructure then needs to know what format is supported
>     by which device/processor.
> 
> 
> The Uptane project , which handles secure
> updates for automobiles intentionally doesn't standardize the format. 
> In a car, the communication protocol used by the ECUs is effectively
> defined by the Ford, GM, etc. even though most of the parts are made by
> vendors.  When a vendor sells the same part to different automakers,
> they will change their part to support the different formats needed.  
> 
> In Uptane, we originally had the same goal of a standardized format
> which Hannes mentioned.  However, when we started to work with the
> automakers, we learned that a standardized format was a show stopper. 
> They wanted the flexibility to customize things slightly for their
> environment because the networks and existing toolchains are so different.
> 
> This has made testing implementations of Uptane a bit more difficult,
> but it seems like we've had better adoption as a result.
> 
> Thanks,
> Justin
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> 


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Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 17:21:57 +0100
From: Toerless Eckert 
To: Michael Richardson 
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" 
Message-ID: <20171125162157.GW19390@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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1) +1, but let me rephase this with an ask:

IMHO the charter MUST make a statement whether the group is expected to
define ONE or multiple DATA MODELs for metadata/manifest. So far
i can not see the term data model in the charter text at all (-07).

Once that charter decision is aggreed on, it will become a lot less
controversial whether the scope of the WG should be restricted to one
set of (serialization) formats or not - and how to write that into the
charter.

2) Having been around the block arguing between different formats
and the pettiness by which different interest groups proliferate redundant
choices, the best i would hope for is that the charter could serialize
format RFCs: Do not make drafts for a second, redundant format option
WG adopted until the first set is in RFC editor queue. And if you do not like for
your format to be second in queue, think about how this can help you
improve on shortcomings made in the first format RFCs. Heck, you're
even given chance to do a -bis on the data format definition to improve
your formats results.

Toerless

On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:51:45PM -0500, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
>     > Yes, there are lots of details to discuss but do you think that any of
>     > this should go into the charter (given that the current version of the
>     > charter already says that we will discuss this and pick one or multiple
>     > formats)?
> 
> The charter needs to say one of:
>      1) the format shall be X. (at one point it said to enhance 4108, so
>           ASN.1 was the data model and DER was the serialization).
> 
>      2) there shall be one format, please hold taste test.
>           (cf: http://www.redballoon.net/humor/alice.txt )
> 
>      3) there can be many serializations, but only one data model.
> 
>      4) whatever you want.
> 
> I prefer (3), btw.
> 
> I have good experience with YANG as the data model, and CBOR+COSE as the
> serialization using SID based keys.
> {I could live with CMS signed JSON if it wasn't the only possibility}
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 



> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


-- 
---
tte@cs.fau.de


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From: Dave Thaler 
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" , "Hannes Tschofenig" , Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Suit Charter: WG Relationships to Others
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter: WG Relationships to Others
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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
To: Michael Richardson , Suhas Nandakumar 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" , "suit-chairs@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
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Subject: [Suit] Adam Roach's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-07: (with COMMENT)
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Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-suit-00-07: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This paragraph appears to be missing some line breaks:

> In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely:
> - An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the
> involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. - One or more manifest
> format specifications.



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In-Reply-To: 
From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 08:04:33 +0000
Message-ID: 
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
Cc: Michael Richardson , "suit-chairs@ietf.org" ,  "suit@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1143e9b6c77247055f06789b"
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
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Thanks David and Michael for the responses.  I have followed up with few
concerns/requests correspondences  via email to the list for charter
updates and scope of the WG.
Here is one on the charter text suggestions.
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/suit/current/msg00239.html

Hope this helps

Thanks
Suhas

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 11:24 AM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <
david.waltermire@nist.gov> wrote:

>
> Comments inline below.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Richardson [mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2017 12:36 PM
> > To: Suhas Nandakumar 
> > Cc: suit@ietf.org; suit-chairs@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
> >
> >
> > Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
> >     > I am bit confused on the actual process followed in updating the
> Suit
> >     > Charter. It looks like the current charter doesn=E2=80=99t seem t=
o reflect
> >     > fully the consensus or discussion points from the BOF.
> >
> > I think that you should consider that the text gets uploaded on a
> quasi-periodic
> > basis so that we can all be talking about the same thing.
>
> The latest charter text is posted on the SUIT Datatracker page here:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/
>
> This text was updated after the BoF on November 15th.
>
> The charter text at this link is intended to represent the consensus
> reached from the hums during BoF. To confirm these changes on the list, w=
e
> have posted updated charter text. If anyone believes there are concerns
> with the charter text that have not been adequately addressed, please rai=
se
> those concerns ASAP.
>
> >     > Also it would have been of great help if the updated charter was
> sent
> >     > to the SUIT mailing list for questions/consensus before getting
> >     > uploaded to the datatracker. I had to accidentally find it
> embedded in
> >     > the BOF report sent to saag mailing list.
> >
> > Yes, I agree that this is less than ideal.
> > But, for many people this is a down week, both because of US
> Thanksgiving and
> > because it's the week after the IETF meeting, and many people need
> recovery
> > time, so please be patient.
>
> Michael, thanks for responding while I was away recovering from jet lag
> and enjoying time with family over the Thanksgiving holiday.
>
> I will post to the list if any changes are made to the charter going
> forward.
>
> >     > Should questions/comments about the current charter sent to Suit
> >     > mailing list be the right way to follow up ?
>
> Yes. Please send any concerns to the list. Also, please provide new
> suggested charter text for any proposed changes. This will help everyone
> better consider the change.
>
> >     > Also, Who is actually
> >     > updating the charter?
> >
> > Generally, the BOF chairs and/or proponents do that in consultation wit=
h
> the
> > sponsoring AD and the ML.
>
> Dave and I are working with Kathleen to edit the charter based on the
> ongoing discussion on the list. Kathleen has been posting changes as they
> have occurred to the Datatracker.
>
> >
> > --
> > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works  -
> > =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
> >
> >
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>

--001a1143e9b6c77247055f06789b
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Hope this helps

Thanks=C2=A0
Suhas=C2=A0
<=
div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Mon, Nov 27, 20=
17 at 11:24 AM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <david.waltermire@nist.gov><=
/span> wrote:


Comments inline below.



> -----Original Message-----

> From: Michael Richardson [mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca]

> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2017 12:36 PM

> To: Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>

> Cc: suit@ietf.org; suit-chairs@i=
etf.org

> Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question

>

>

> Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com> wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> I am bit confused on the actual process follow=
ed in updating the Suit

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Charter. It looks like the current charter doe=
sn=E2=80=99t seem to reflect

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> fully the consensus or discussion points from =
the BOF.

>

> I think that you should consider that the text gets uploaded on a quas=
i-periodic

> basis so that we can all be talking about the same thing.



The latest charter text is posted on the SUIT Datatracker page here:=




https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-sui=
t/



This text was updated after the BoF on November 15th.



The charter text at this link is intended to represent the consensus reache=
d from the hums during BoF. To confirm these changes on the list, we have p=
osted updated charter text. If anyone believes there are concerns with the =
charter text that have not been adequately addressed, please raise those co=
ncerns ASAP.



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Also it would have been of great help if the u=
pdated charter was sent

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> to the SUIT mailing list for questions/consens=
us before getting

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> uploaded to the datatracker. I had to accident=
ally find it embedded in

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> the BOF report sent to saag mailing list.

>

> Yes, I agree that this is less than ideal.

> But, for many people this is a down week, both because of US Thanksgiv=
ing and

> because it's the week after the IETF meeting, and many people need=
 recovery

> time, so please be patient.



Michael, thanks for responding while I was away recovering from jet =
lag and enjoying time with family over the Thanksgiving holiday.



I will post to the list if any changes are made to the charter going forwar=
d.



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Should questions/comments about the current ch=
arter sent to Suit

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> mailing list be the right way to follow up ?


Yes. Please send any concerns to the list. Also, please provide new =
suggested charter text for any proposed changes. This will help everyone be=
tter consider the change.



>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Also, Who is actually

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> updating the charter?

>

> Generally, the BOF chairs and/or proponents do that in consultation wi=
th the

> sponsoring AD and the ML.



Dave and I are working with Kathleen to edit the charter based on th=
e ongoing discussion on the list. Kathleen has been posting changes as they=
 have occurred to the Datatracker.



>

> --

> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0=
 -

> =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-

>

>



Regards,

Dave





Hi Micheal,

=C2=A0My thinking was same =
on not inventing new mechanism and re-use existing ones.

Cheers
Suhas

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 3:46 PM, Michael Richardson <=
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail=
.com> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I would like to propose following addition to the above =
list



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mechanisms to discover new firmware=
 is available and the location

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to download it from



I'm actually okay with this in the charter, provided that we don't =
invent

anything new.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I can imagine doint this with CoAP OBSERVE, DNS-S=
D, HTTP requests,

and I'm sure I'll think of four more in a minute.



--

Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@=
sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works

=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-











--94eb2c1497ca72a404055e9afde5--


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
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To: Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Multisource signed manifest and permission model
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Suit Charter: WG Relationships to Others
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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To: Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter: IOTSU Workshop information in the Charter
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To: Michael Richardson , Suhas Nandakumar 
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Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Hi Suhas, Hi Michael,

the problem is the slippery slope here: as mentioned on the mailing list (n=
ot by me) it is not only about discovering the server but very quickly you =
are talking about "how do I push firmware updates to devices (instead of ju=
st polling)", "how do I learn what capabilities the device has (since the s=
erver wants to offer the appropriate firmware to the device)", "how do get =
information about the current state of the firmware update (has it been dow=
nloaded already, has the device successfully replaced the firmware, etc.)",=
 "can I reset the device to a previous version of the firmware that is alre=
ady on the device", "how much flash space is still left on the device", etc=
.

Some standardization work has been done in this field already, which I had =
pointed out in previous email discussions.

I am wondering why you don't create your own working group just to work on =
this topic. This would help to create more focused work.

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
Sent: 23 November 2017 00:46
To: Suhas Nandakumar
Cc: suit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Me=
chanism


Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
    > I would like to propose following addition to the above list

    > *   Mechanisms to discover new firmware is available and the location
    > to download it from

I'm actually okay with this in the charter, provided that we don't invent
anything new.   I can imagine doint this with CoAP OBSERVE, DNS-SD, HTTP re=
quests,
and I'm sure I'll think of four more in a minute.

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works  -=3D =
IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 09:01:37 +0100
Cc: Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
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References:  
To: Hannes Tschofenig 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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On Nov 23, 2017, at 08:31, Hannes Tschofenig  =
wrote:
>=20
> Do you agree that having multiple formats will cause additional pain =
and lower interoperability?

I=E2=80=99m not Suhas, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that while this =
is trivially true, it may also be trivially irrelevant, as demonstrated =
by a sentence like:

> having both UDP and TCP as transport protocols for IP will cause =
additional pain and lower interoperability

(I=E2=80=99m not sure what =E2=80=9Cformat=E2=80=9D means here; if this =
is about serializations, different considerations apply than if this is =
about information models and security models.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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CC: Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
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From: Henk Birkholz 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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Hello,

calling RFC 4108 "state-of-the-art" is some kind of euphemism, right?

I know it is the only good reference in the RFC space - the Concise 
Software Identifier I-D also references 4108 for over a year now... but 
we decided to leave only the very basic information elements from RFC 
4108 in the CoSWID draft, will finish the current draft and create a 
corresponding extension draft when SUIT has come to life and agreed on 
mandatory metadata and optional metatdata information elements to be 
included in the manifest.

RFC 4108 is "pre-IoT" and is based on assumptions that mostly do not 
exactly apply anymore today, especially encoding wise.

I am strongly against encoding wars: but either we extend the 
expressiveness of 4108 and continue the use of CMS (which, I think, is a 
lesson learned and might be one of the things we do not want to repeat) 
or we create a way forward that take into account the requirements 
today. And Richard and others, for example, had some very good use cases 
at the first Bar BoF, if I remember correctly.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11/23/2017 08:40 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Suhas,
> 
> I think it is helpful in two ways:
> 
> -First RFC 4108 illustrates that the IETF has published a document in 
> this area already.
> 
> -Second, it is useful background material. I always find it interesting 
> to take the state-of-the-art into account. Too often we ignore prior 
> work and repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
> 
> I agree that RFC 4108 is not in widespread use but is the text does not 
> claim that.
> 
> Ciao
> 
> Hannes
> 
> *From:*Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Suhas Nandakumar
> *Sent:* 23 November 2017 00:31
> *To:* suit@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
> 
> Hello All
> 
> The charter current says the following on the CMS or RFC 4108
> 
> """
> 
> RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message 
> Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years have 
> passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater experience with 
> IoT deployments has led to additional functionality, requiring a 
> contemporary standardized solution to be defined.
> 
> """
> 
> I feel this para is not adding value to the WG objectives and should be 
> removed from the charter. IIRC the BOF discussions also indicated 
> something on the similar lines and RFC4108 is not in widespread use as 
> of today.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Suhas Nandakumar
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> 


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Henk Birkholz , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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From nobody Thu Nov 23 01:02:15 2017
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To: 
References:   <48439ED2-6618-4987-BC56-0D059F012890@tzi.org>
From: Henk Birkholz 
Message-ID: <59cfc088-0bfb-5012-cf8a-c2a06fff8a8e@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 10:01:39 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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Hello,

my assumption is that we are talking about a serialization of a data 
model for data in motion here.

And a personal note: I would really like not to have to to nest 
sequences in sets with one item nested in sequences again, anymore.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11/23/2017 09:01 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On Nov 23, 2017, at 08:31, Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
>>
>> Do you agree that having multiple formats will cause additional pain and lower interoperability?
> 
> I’m not Suhas, but I’d like to point out that while this is trivially true, it may also be trivially irrelevant, as demonstrated by a sentence like:
> 
>> having both UDP and TCP as transport protocols for IP will cause additional pain and lower interoperability
> 
> (I’m not sure what “format” means here; if this is about serializations, different considerations apply than if this is about information models and security models.)
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> 


From nobody Thu Nov 23 01:10:41 2017
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To: Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" 
References:    
From: Henk Birkholz 
Message-ID: <308e17f9-e5db-2bb5-3377-c4c19cc177a6@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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Very good,

still, the information elements derived from the data model of RFC 4108 
would have to be discussed,revised with scrutiny and have to be 
refactored. It is only state-of-the-art in the sense that VHS is 
state-of-the-art for analog video tapes, I think.

The point here is, is the content of 4108 vital enough to be included in 
the charter? And I would dare to say it is not.

Starting with requirements from scratch seems to be more productive to 
me in contrast to make some of the "old things" fit into the "old thing" 
just because it is there (and afak not even used significantly).

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11/23/2017 10:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> This is not about coding wars. We are only talking about whether it is useful to mention prior IETF work in the charter. Nothing more.
> 
> There is separate text in the charter that says the group will pick one or multiple encoding formats.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
> Sent: 23 November 2017 09:59
> To: suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
> 
> Hello,
> 
> calling RFC 4108 "state-of-the-art" is some kind of euphemism, right?
> 
> I know it is the only good reference in the RFC space - the Concise Software Identifier I-D also references 4108 for over a year now... but we decided to leave only the very basic information elements from RFC
> 4108 in the CoSWID draft, will finish the current draft and create a corresponding extension draft when SUIT has come to life and agreed on mandatory metadata and optional metatdata information elements to be included in the manifest.
> 
> RFC 4108 is "pre-IoT" and is based on assumptions that mostly do not exactly apply anymore today, especially encoding wise.
> 
> I am strongly against encoding wars: but either we extend the expressiveness of 4108 and continue the use of CMS (which, I think, is a lesson learned and might be one of the things we do not want to repeat) or we create a way forward that take into account the requirements today. And Richard and others, for example, had some very good use cases at the first Bar BoF, if I remember correctly.
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> On 11/23/2017 08:40 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi Suhas,
>>
>> I think it is helpful in two ways:
>>
>> -First RFC 4108 illustrates that the IETF has published a document in
>> this area already.
>>
>> -Second, it is useful background material. I always find it
>> interesting to take the state-of-the-art into account. Too often we
>> ignore prior work and repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
>>
>> I agree that RFC 4108 is not in widespread use but is the text does
>> not claim that.
>>
>> Ciao
>>
>> Hannes
>>
>> *From:*Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Suhas
>> Nandakumar
>> *Sent:* 23 November 2017 00:31
>> *To:* suit@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
>>
>> Hello All
>>
>> The charter current says the following on the CMS or RFC 4108
>>
>> """
>>
>> RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic
>> Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years
>> have passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater experience
>> with IoT deployments has led to additional functionality, requiring a
>> contemporary standardized solution to be defined.
>>
>> """
>>
>> I feel this para is not adding value to the WG objectives and should
>> be removed from the charter. IIRC the BOF discussions also indicated
>> something on the similar lines and RFC4108 is not in widespread use as
>> of today.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Suhas Nandakumar
>>
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose
>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or
>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


From nobody Thu Nov 23 01:24:09 2017
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To: 
References:  <589.1511394367@obiwan.sandelman.ca> 
From: Henk Birkholz 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Hello,

I am not surprised that people expect a whole work-flow to be in scope 
if text, such as "secure firmware update mechanism", is in the charter. 
Maybe we just prerequisite enrollment, or imprint, or "zerotouch" 
solutions? Maybe we recommend a best practice?

I would recommend to elaborate on "A mechanism to transport firmware 
images to compatible devices", highlighting the scope of the "mechanism".

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 11/23/2017 08:59 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Suhas, Hi Michael,
> 
> the problem is the slippery slope here: as mentioned on the mailing list (not by me) it is not only about discovering the server but very quickly you are talking about "how do I push firmware updates to devices (instead of just polling)", "how do I learn what capabilities the device has (since the server wants to offer the appropriate firmware to the device)", "how do get information about the current state of the firmware update (has it been downloaded already, has the device successfully replaced the firmware, etc.)", "can I reset the device to a previous version of the firmware that is already on the device", "how much flash space is still left on the device", etc.
> 
> Some standardization work has been done in this field already, which I had pointed out in previous email discussions.
> 
> I am wondering why you don't create your own working group just to work on this topic. This would help to create more focused work.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
> Sent: 23 November 2017 00:46
> To: Suhas Nandakumar
> Cc: suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
> 
> 
> Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
>      > I would like to propose following addition to the above list
> 
>      > *   Mechanisms to discover new firmware is available and the location
>      > to download it from
> 
> I'm actually okay with this in the charter, provided that we don't invent
> anything new.   I can imagine doint this with CoAP OBSERVE, DNS-SD, HTTP requests,
> and I'm sure I'll think of four more in a minute.
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> 


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Henk Birkholz , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Henk Birkholz , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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From: Carsten Bormann 
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 11:13:59 +0100
Cc: Henk Birkholz , "suit@ietf.org" 
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References:     <308e17f9-e5db-2bb5-3377-c4c19cc177a6@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
To: Hannes Tschofenig 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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On Nov 23, 2017, at 11:01, Hannes Tschofenig  =
wrote:
>=20
> As mentioned to Suhas the purpose of mentioning RFC 4108 and also the =
IAB workshop is to highlight that the IETF has been looking into this =
topic before. You prefer not to mention anything about prior IETF work =
in this area to the reader. Is that correct?

I=E2=80=99m not Henk, but the charter is there to guide (and constrain) =
the work of the WG.

I believe it is good if WG participants know about RFC 4108 and the =
IoTSU workshop.
But what guidance, what constraints are you trying to derive from these?
The reference to IoTSU is somewhat unambiguous, but, as I mentioned =
previously a few times already, it is too easy to raise the =
misconception that SUIT is the RFC 4108 tweaking WG.  The sense of the =
BOF in Singapore was quite different.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Carsten Bormann 
CC: Henk Birkholz , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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From nobody Thu Nov 23 02:31:44 2017
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To: Hannes Tschofenig 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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On Nov 23, 2017, at 09:09, Hannes Tschofenig  =
wrote:
>=20
> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of =
the manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).

But that list is rather confused/ing.

ASN.1 is an abstract syntax notation, i.e. a data model specification =
language.
It comes with a number of serializations such as BER/DER and OER (or =
even XER).
While BER/DER has history in the IETF, you=E2=80=99d probably want to =
use OER in a car.

XML is a generic data model with two serializations: XML character =
format and EXI.  It is often used with one of three data model =
specification languages: XML DTD, XSD, and Relax-NG (ASN.1 via XER is =
theoretically possible, but rarely used).  IETF also uses YANG to =
specify data models that are then serialized in XML.

JSON and CBOR are two serializations for a common generic data model =
(which has been made extensible, and was extended, for CBOR).
No dominating data model specification language has evolved in this =
space, although IETF has been using YANG and CDDL.

BER/DER has PKCS7/CMS as a security spec (which uses ASN.1 as its data =
model specification language).

I don=E2=80=99t know a security spec that would be applicable for XML in =
this space.

JSON and CBOR come with JOSE and COSE, respectively; the latter uses =
CDDL as its data model specification language.  There is currently no =
way to specify these security data models in YANG.

What exactly do you mean by =E2=80=9Cformat" now?  I would have thought =
that would be the specific data model of the manifest, including =
security mechanisms, combined with a preferred serialization.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From nobody Thu Nov 23 02:42:25 2017
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 11:42:08 +0100
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" , Suhas Nandakumar 
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To: Hannes Tschofenig 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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On Nov 23, 2017, at 11:38, Hannes Tschofenig  =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Carsten,
>=20
> Yes, there are lots of details to discuss but do you think that any of =
this should go into the charter (given that the current version of the =
charter already says that we will discuss this and pick one or multiple =
formats)?

Well, I=E2=80=99d say we=E2=80=99ll design a format and pick one or more =
serializations for it.
I was just trying to explain why the term =E2=80=9Cformat=E2=80=9D maybe =
is a bit too fuzzy in those places of the charter where we want to be =
specific.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


>=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]
> Sent: 23 November 2017 11:31
> To: Hannes Tschofenig
> Cc: Suhas Nandakumar; suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
>=20
> On Nov 23, 2017, at 09:09, Hannes Tschofenig =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of =
the manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).
>=20
> But that list is rather confused/ing.
>=20
> ASN.1 is an abstract syntax notation, i.e. a data model specification =
language.
> It comes with a number of serializations such as BER/DER and OER (or =
even XER).
> While BER/DER has history in the IETF, you=E2=80=99d probably want to =
use OER in a car.
>=20
> XML is a generic data model with two serializations: XML character =
format and EXI.  It is often used with one of three data model =
specification languages: XML DTD, XSD, and Relax-NG (ASN.1 via XER is =
theoretically possible, but rarely used).  IETF also uses YANG to =
specify data models that are then serialized in XML.
>=20
> JSON and CBOR are two serializations for a common generic data model =
(which has been made extensible, and was extended, for CBOR).
> No dominating data model specification language has evolved in this =
space, although IETF has been using YANG and CDDL.
>=20
> BER/DER has PKCS7/CMS as a security spec (which uses ASN.1 as its data =
model specification language).
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t know a security spec that would be applicable for XML =
in this space.
>=20
> JSON and CBOR come with JOSE and COSE, respectively; the latter uses =
CDDL as its data model specification language.  There is currently no =
way to specify these security data models in YANG.
>=20
> What exactly do you mean by =E2=80=9Cformat" now?  I would have =
thought that would be the specific data model of the manifest, including =
security mechanisms, combined with a preferred serialization.
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>=20
>=20


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Carsten Bormann 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" , Suhas Nandakumar 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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From: Henk Birkholz 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Hello Hannes,

tl;dr I though the consensus was going into the direction of a small 
list of formats. I consider this to be correct unless consensus shows 
otherwise.




The remainder of this email are just observations:

This statement

On 11/23/2017 11:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> I may be hard to believe but some companies are actually interested in bringing a standardized manifest format to the market.

in combination with these statements

On 11/23/2017 10:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> There is separate text in the charter that says the group will pick one or multiple encoding formats.

On 11/23/2017 09:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of the manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).

seem to contradict each other?


Either there is a standardized manifest format, or there are multiple 
based on the same data model? Also including ASN.1 in the list is 
somehow confusing to me. If we are talking about format here, I think 
ASN.1 does not fit that list.

And it might also sound surprising, but because some companies (e.g. a 
few that rely on SOTA) are interested in to market solutions, we started 
to address this in drafts before the first TEEP BoF. Now that TEEP is 
emerging, we are splitting the work wrt firmware, and suspended some of 
it to wait for TEEP manifest definition output in order to retain 
interoperability - which is effectively a delay already (but addressing 
a bigger group of stakeholder seems vital, so... viable & necessary).


Viele Grüße,

Henk











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To: Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" 
References:     <308e17f9-e5db-2bb5-3377-c4c19cc177a6@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
From: Henk Birkholz 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
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Hello Hannes,

because it is misleading, I think (and I was only talking about the RFC 
not the WS) in combination with:

> greater experience with IoT deployments has led to additional functionality

SUIT is not about additional functionality, I think. It is about new work.

And I think the VHS analogy is okay, because like RFC 4108 it is a 
standard and only a relatively small number of stakeholders are planning 
to use it as a guideline for future technology. It is a good reference 
for an existing standard though.

In consequence, RFC 4108 should be mentioned in a corresponding 
documents that cover actual information elements or structure.

In respect to referring to a whole workshop... I have no strong opinion. 
It is just little bit general, I think.


Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11/23/2017 11:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> I fail to understand why you are so much against even mentioning prior art in the charter. Just because RFC 4108 or the IAB workshop are mentioned in the charter text does not mean that the group cannot list the requirements in a document again. Where do you get this impression from?
> 
> I am not sure the comparison with VHS is appropriate since we are not writing a charter for a technology that replaces VHS.
> 
> As mentioned to Suhas the purpose of mentioning RFC 4108 and also the IAB workshop is to highlight that the IETF has been looking into this topic before. You prefer not to mention anything about prior IETF work in this area to the reader. Is that correct?
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henk Birkholz [mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de]
> Sent: 23 November 2017 10:10
> To: Hannes Tschofenig; suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
> 
> Very good,
> 
> still, the information elements derived from the data model of RFC 4108 would have to be discussed,revised with scrutiny and have to be refactored. It is only state-of-the-art in the sense that VHS is state-of-the-art for analog video tapes, I think.
> 
> The point here is, is the content of 4108 vital enough to be included in the charter? And I would dare to say it is not.
> 
> Starting with requirements from scratch seems to be more productive to me in contrast to make some of the "old things" fit into the "old thing"
> just because it is there (and afak not even used significantly).
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> On 11/23/2017 10:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi Henk,
>>
>> This is not about coding wars. We are only talking about whether it is useful to mention prior IETF work in the charter. Nothing more.
>>
>> There is separate text in the charter that says the group will pick one or multiple encoding formats.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
>> Sent: 23 November 2017 09:59
>> To: suit@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> calling RFC 4108 "state-of-the-art" is some kind of euphemism, right?
>>
>> I know it is the only good reference in the RFC space - the Concise
>> Software Identifier I-D also references 4108 for over a year now...
>> but we decided to leave only the very basic information elements from
>> RFC
>> 4108 in the CoSWID draft, will finish the current draft and create a corresponding extension draft when SUIT has come to life and agreed on mandatory metadata and optional metatdata information elements to be included in the manifest.
>>
>> RFC 4108 is "pre-IoT" and is based on assumptions that mostly do not exactly apply anymore today, especially encoding wise.
>>
>> I am strongly against encoding wars: but either we extend the expressiveness of 4108 and continue the use of CMS (which, I think, is a lesson learned and might be one of the things we do not want to repeat) or we create a way forward that take into account the requirements today. And Richard and others, for example, had some very good use cases at the first Bar BoF, if I remember correctly.
>>
>> Viele Grüße,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> On 11/23/2017 08:40 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>> Hi Suhas,
>>>
>>> I think it is helpful in two ways:
>>>
>>> -First RFC 4108 illustrates that the IETF has published a document in
>>> this area already.
>>>
>>> -Second, it is useful background material. I always find it
>>> interesting to take the state-of-the-art into account. Too often we
>>> ignore prior work and repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
>>>
>>> I agree that RFC 4108 is not in widespread use but is the text does
>>> not claim that.
>>>
>>> Ciao
>>>
>>> Hannes
>>>
>>> *From:*Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Suhas
>>> Nandakumar
>>> *Sent:* 23 November 2017 00:31
>>> *To:* suit@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
>>>
>>> Hello All
>>>
>>> The charter current says the following on the CMS or RFC 4108
>>>
>>> """
>>>
>>> RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic
>>> Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten
>>> years have passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater
>>> experience with IoT deployments has led to additional functionality,
>>> requiring a contemporary standardized solution to be defined.
>>>
>>> """
>>>
>>> I feel this para is not adding value to the WG objectives and should
>>> be removed from the charter. IIRC the BOF discussions also indicated
>>> something on the similar lines and RFC4108 is not in widespread use
>>> as of today.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Suhas Nandakumar
>>>
>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
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>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Suit mailing list
>>> Suit@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
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> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


From nobody Thu Nov 23 03:22:30 2017
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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On Nov 23, 2017, at 08:59, Hannes Tschofenig  =
wrote:
>=20
> I am wondering why you don't create your own working group just to =
work on this topic. This would help to create more focused work.

Or use an existing one.  SUIT would be the wrong one, as it focuses on =
securely authorizing firmware updates, although many of the properties =
conveyed in a SUIT manifest will be important for discovery, too.

LWM2M uses CoAP for firmware transfer.
If CoAP (or the CoRE discovery mechanisms) have gaps or shortcomings for =
applications that need to do firmware transfer, I think the CoRE WG =
would be interested to hear about that.  A draft not unlike =
draft-birkholz-yang-push-coap-problemstatement would be wonderful to =
prime this discussion.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Henk Birkholz , "suit@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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In-Reply-To: 
References:  
From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 07:37:02 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Hannes Tschofenig 
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113ef9803103df055ea835c2"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org
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--001a113ef9803103df055ea835c2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hello Hannes,

  Comments inline

Thanks


On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:40 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <
Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

> Hi Suhas,
>
>
>
> I think it is helpful in two ways:
>
>
>
> -          First RFC 4108 illustrates that the IETF has published a
> document in this area already.
>
>
>
> -          Second, it is useful background material. I always find it
> interesting to take the state-of-the-art into account. Too often we ignore
> prior work and repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
>
>
Not disputing it is useful as background information and i do think it
should be mentioned in the architecture document, for example .
FWIW its preferred the charter text focus on the work the group will
perform and more streamlined it is , the better it is.


>
>
> I agree that RFC 4108 is not in widespread use but is the text does not
> claim that.
>
>
>
> Ciao
>
> Hannes
>
>
>
> *From:* Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Suhas
> Nandakumar
> *Sent:* 23 November 2017 00:31
> *To:* suit@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter
>
>
>
> Hello All
>
> The charter current says the following on the CMS or RFC 4108
>
> """
>
> RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message
> Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years have passed
> since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater experience with IoT
> deployments has led to additional functionality, requiring a contemporary
> standardized solution to be defined.
>
> """
>
> I feel this para is not adding value to the WG objectives and should be
> removed from the charter. IIRC the BOF discussions also indicated something
> on the similar lines and RFC4108 is not in widespread use as of today.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Suhas Nandakumar
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>

--001a113ef9803103df055ea835c2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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Hello Hannes,

=C2=A0 Comments inline

Thanks


On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:40 PM, Hannes T=
schofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:











Hi Suhas,



=C2=A0


I think it is helpful in =
two ways:



=C2=A0


-=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
First RFC 4108 illus=
trates that the IETF has published a document in this area already.<=
u>


=C2=A0


-=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
Second, it is useful=
 background material. I always find it interesting to take the state-of-the=
-art into account. Too often we ignore prior work and
 repeat the same mistakes over and over again. 


<=
/div>

Not disputing it is useful as backgro=
und information and i do think it should be mentioned in the architecture d=
ocument, for example .=C2=A0
FWIW its preferred the charter text =
focus on the work the group will perform and more streamlined it is , the b=
etter it is.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0


I agree that RFC 4108 is =
not in widespread use but is the text does not claim that.



=C2=A0


Ciao=



Hannes


<=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-s=
erif";color:#1f497d">=C2=A0


From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org]
On Behalf Of Suhas Nandakumar

Sent: 23 November 2017 00:31

To: suit@ietf.org=


Subject: [Suit] SUIT Charter: RFC4108 Reference in the charter


=C2=A0





Hello All



The charter current says the following on the CMS or RFC 4108




"""



RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic =
Message Syntax (CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years have=
 passed since the publication of RFC 4108, and greater
 experience with IoT deployments has led to additional functionality, requi=
ring a contemporary standardized solution to be defined.



"""



I feel this para is not adding value to the WG objectives and sh=
ould be removed from the charter. IIRC the BOF discussions also indicated s=
omething on the similar lines and RFC4108 is not in widespread
 use as of today.



=C2=A0



Cheers



Suhas Nandakumar




=C2=A0







IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.







--001a113ef9803103df055ea835c2--


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References:  <589.1511394367@obiwan.sandelman.ca> 
From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 07:48:17 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Hannes Tschofenig 
Cc: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c0e9c765fae5c055ea85d37"
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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--94eb2c0e9c765fae5c055ea85d37
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Hello Hannes,

 please see responses inline.

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <
Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

> Hi Suhas, Hi Michael,
>
> the problem is the slippery slope here: as mentioned on the mailing list
> (not by me) it is not only about discovering the server but very quickly
> you are talking about "how do I push firmware updates to devices (instead
> of just polling)", "how do I learn what capabilities the device has (since
> the server wants to offer the appropriate firmware to the device)", "how do
> get information about the current state of the firmware update (has it been
> downloaded already, has the device successfully replaced the firmware,
> etc.)", "can I reset the device to a previous version of the firmware that
> is already on the device", "how much flash space is still left on the
> device", etc.
>
>
I think we are mixing different things here. What I am proposing is a need
to discover the location of the firmware server that has the manifest and
the image, when the device is ready to upgrade  (say, using polling, for
example)
The above list of things you have is way more complicated than what is
being asked. I think we shouldn't mix "firmware server location discovery"
with "capabilities discovery or negotiation mechanism"



> Some standardization work has been done in this field already, which I had
> pointed out in previous email discussions.
>
> I am wondering why you don't create your own working group just to work on
> this topic. This would help to create more focused work.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
> Sent: 23 November 2017 00:46
> To: Suhas Nandakumar
> Cc: suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download
> Mechanism
>
>
> Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
>     > I would like to propose following addition to the above list
>
>     > *   Mechanisms to discover new firmware is available and the location
>     > to download it from
>
> I'm actually okay with this in the charter, provided that we don't invent
> anything new.   I can imagine doint this with CoAP OBSERVE, DNS-SD, HTTP
> requests,
> and I'm sure I'll think of four more in a minute.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works  -=
> IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>

--94eb2c0e9c765fae5c055ea85d37
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hello Hannes,

=C2=A0please see response=
s inline.

On=
 Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofen=
ig@arm.com> wrote:
Hi Suhas=
, Hi Michael,



the problem is the slippery slope here: as mentioned on the mailing list (n=
ot by me) it is not only about discovering the server but very quickly you =
are talking about "how do I push firmware updates to devices (instead =
of just polling)", "how do I learn what capabilities the device h=
as (since the server wants to offer the appropriate firmware to the device)=
", "how do get information about the current state of the firmwar=
e update (has it been downloaded already, has the device successfully repla=
ced the firmware, etc.)", "can I reset the device to a previous v=
ersion of the firmware that is already on the device", "how much =
flash space is still left on the device", etc.



I think we are mixing different things=
 here. What I am proposing is a need to discover the location of the firmwa=
re server that has the manifest and the image, when the device is ready to =
upgrade=C2=A0 (say, using polling, for example)
The above list of=
 things you have is way more complicated than what is being asked. I think =
we shouldn't mix "firmware server location discovery" with &q=
uot;capabilities discovery or negotiation mechanism"
=C2=A0

Some standardization work has been done in this field already, which I had =
pointed out in previous email discussions.



I am wondering why you don't create your own working group just to work=
 on this topic. This would help to create more focused work.



Ciao

Hannes




-----Original Message-----

From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ie=
tf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson

Sent: 23 November 2017 00:46

To: Suhas Nandakumar

Cc: suit@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Me=
chanism





Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail=
.com> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I would like to propose following addition to the above =
list



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > *=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mechanisms to discover new firmware is ava=
ilable and the location

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to download it from



I'm actually okay with this in the charter, provided that we don't =
invent

anything new.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I can imagine doint this with CoAP OBSERVE, DNS-S=
D, HTTP requests,

and I'm sure I'll think of four more in a minute.



--

Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@=
sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulti=
ng =3D-








IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachment=
s are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the con=
tents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the inf=
ormation in any medium. Thank you.





--94eb2c0e9c765fae5c055ea85d37--


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 07:52:22 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Hannes Tschofenig 
Cc: Carsten Bormann , "suit@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c096da2ffa229055ea86b72"
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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <
Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

> Hi Carsten,
>
> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of the
> manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).
>
> For us offering operating systems we fear that one customer will want
> ASN.1 and the other want JSON, like they do with IoT protocols (e.g., CoA=
P
> and MQTT) today as well. The result is that we have to support everything
> and while they will not be compiled into the code at the same time they
> need to be available and need to be maintained.
>
> When you then update a fleet of devices, some of them may support foo and
> some bar. Imagine a vehicle that comes with many different processors and
> they require a mixture of different formats. The backend infrastructure
> then needs to know what format is supported by which device/processor.
>

The device will ask for the format that it supports. Say, the device needs
manifest in CBOR format for example
 The device is basically dumb in that context and I am saying we don't need
to complicate that. Let the burden of having multiple encodings support be
on the update server and the device will ask the only thing it supports.


>
> I hope this makes sense.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org]
> Sent: 23 November 2017 09:02
> To: Hannes Tschofenig
> Cc: Suhas Nandakumar; suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
>
> On Nov 23, 2017, at 08:31, Hannes Tschofenig 
> wrote:
> >
> > Do you agree that having multiple formats will cause additional pain an=
d
> lower interoperability?
>
> I=E2=80=99m not Suhas, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that while this =
is trivially
> true, it may also be trivially irrelevant, as demonstrated by a sentence
> like:
>
> > having both UDP and TCP as transport protocols for IP will cause
> additional pain and lower interoperability
>
> (I=E2=80=99m not sure what =E2=80=9Cformat=E2=80=9D means here; if this i=
s about serializations,
> different considerations apply than if this is about information models a=
nd
> security models.)
>
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>

--94eb2c096da2ffa229055ea86b72
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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 12:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig &=
lt;Hannes.Ts=
chofenig@arm.com> wrote:
Hi=
 Carsten,



Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of the m=
anifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).



For us offering operating systems we fear that one customer will want ASN.1=
 and the other want JSON, like they do with IoT protocols (e.g., CoAP and M=
QTT) today as well. The result is that we have to support everything and wh=
ile they will not be compiled into the code at the same time they need to b=
e available and need to be maintained.



When you then update a fleet of devices, some of them may support foo and s=
ome bar. Imagine a vehicle that comes with many different processors and th=
ey require a mixture of different formats. The backend infrastructure then =
needs to know what format is supported by which device/processor.

The device will ask for the format that it suppo=
rts. Say, the device needs manifest in CBOR format for example
=
=C2=A0The device is basically dumb in that context and I am saying we don&#=
39;t need to complicate that. Let the burden of having multiple encodings s=
upport be on the update server and the device will ask the only thing it su=
pports.=C2=A0
=C2=A0



I hope this makes sense.



Ciao

Hannes





-----Original Message-----

From: Carsten Bormann [mailto:cabo@tzi.org<=
/a>]

Sent: 23 November 2017 09:02

To: Hannes Tschofenig

Cc: Suhas Nandakumar; suit@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats



On Nov 23, 2017, at 08:31, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

>

> Do you agree that having multiple formats will cause additional pain a=
nd lower interoperability?



I=E2=80=99m not Suhas, but I=E2=80=99d like to point out that while =
this is trivially true, it may also be trivially irrelevant, as demonstrate=
d by a sentence like:



> having both UDP and TCP as transport protocols for IP will cause addit=
ional pain and lower interoperability



(I=E2=80=99m not sure what =E2=80=9Cformat=E2=80=9D means here; if this is =
about serializations, different considerations apply than if this is about =
information models and security models.)



Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten




IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.





--94eb2c096da2ffa229055ea86b72--


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Suhas Nandakumar 
CC: Carsten Bormann , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:13:15 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Suhas Nandakumar 
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Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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To: Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" 
References:  <589.1511394367@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <512a039b-ca00-5cf7-bee1-988942e4656b@sit.fraunhofer.de>   
From: Henk Birkholz 
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 17:21:01 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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Oh Im sorry, I was confusing TEEP and SUIT again... my fault! :)

So please %s/TEEP/SUIT/g

That said, we added a firmware resource collection to the Concise 
Software Identifier draft in early February this year, which enables 
this document type to be used as a (Reference Integrity Measurement) 
Manifest and/or Container for firmware components.

When the TEEP BoF formed, we separated that part from the core data 
definition and moved it as an extension data definition into an appendix 
of the same draft in expectation of more input.

As we aim for WGLC in December this year (and there will be no decisions 
on firmware related content available until then for sure, 
unfortunately), we will now only include a minimal set of core 
attributes about firmware resources in the core document and create 
another draft that will extend this resource collection in order to 
become a TEEP conform representation later on.


Viele Grüße,

Henk

p.s.

The contradiction I see is that you could use ASN.1 (which is not a 
format/encoding - which I was trying to hint at wrt your list of 
formats, but Carsten was way more elaborate as me on that topic as I 
just saw) in a CMS scenario, but cannot (only) use ASN.1, if you want to 
accommodate more than encodings that are typically defined via the ASN.1 
data model language.

Typically, you (have to / should?) decide on a "clever intermediate 
language", if you do the latter, or am I missing something here? You 
could use multiple languages at once - I guess - and try to keep them 
aligned during the design period of the vocabulary, but I would not like 
to be the person who has to do that.



On 11/23/2017 04:27 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
>> Hello Hannes,
> 
>> tl;dr I though the consensus was going into the direction of a small list of formats. I consider this to be correct unless consensus shows otherwise.
> 
> [Hannes] That would be good. But let's see when we get to the point of selecting.
> 
> 
> The remainder of this email are just observations:
> 
> This statement
> 
> On 11/23/2017 11:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> I may be hard to believe but some companies are actually interested in bringing a standardized manifest format to the market.
> 
> in combination with these statements
> 
> On 11/23/2017 10:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> There is separate text in the charter that says the group will pick one or multiple encoding formats.
> 
> On 11/23/2017 09:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of the manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).
> 
> seem to contradict each other?
> 
> 
> Either there is a standardized manifest format, or there are multiple based on the same data model? Also including ASN.1 in the list is somehow confusing to me. If we are talking about format here, I think
> ASN.1 does not fit that list.
> 
> [Hannes] I don't see the contradiction. When we submitted our initial draft version, which described a solution based on ASN1./DER + CMS, some folks said "I want JSON/JOSE" and yet others said "I want CBOR/COSE". Hence, the charter text changed by delaying the decision to a later time in the working group. What matters ultimately is what one has to implement rather than what clever intermediate language we use or how we structure documents.
> 
> And it might also sound surprising, but because some companies (e.g. a few that rely on SOTA) are interested in to market solutions, we started to address this in drafts before the first TEEP BoF. Now that TEEP is emerging, we are splitting the work wrt firmware, and suspended some of it to wait for TEEP manifest definition output in order to retain interoperability - which is effectively a delay already (but addressing a bigger group of stakeholder seems vital, so... viable & necessary).
> 
> [Hannes] I am not sure I understood this statement. The Open Trust Protocol, which is the only solution so far submitted to the TEEP group, does not define a manifest format. At the TEEP BOF folks argued that it would be a good idea to re-use the manifest format from SUIT in TEEP but that hasn't been done so far (although I think it is a good idea).
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


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To: 
References:  <589.1511394367@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <512a039b-ca00-5cf7-bee1-988942e4656b@sit.fraunhofer.de>    <9ed2fd3e-4fe9-28dd-1b29-e93c2d9880d8@sit.fraunhofer.de>
From: Henk Birkholz 
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Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 17:26:06 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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And again... I meant SUIT, this now seems to be stuck in my head *sigh*

On 11/23/2017 05:21 PM, Henk Birkholz wrote:
> Oh Im sorry, I was confusing TEEP and SUIT again... my fault! :)
> 
> So please %s/TEEP/SUIT/g
> 
> That said, we added a firmware resource collection to the Concise 
> Software Identifier draft in early February this year, which enables 
> this document type to be used as a (Reference Integrity Measurement) 
> Manifest and/or Container for firmware components.
> 
> When the TEEP BoF formed, we separated that part from the core data 
> definition and moved it as an extension data definition into an appendix 
> of the same draft in expectation of more input.
> 
> As we aim for WGLC in December this year (and there will be no decisions 
> on firmware related content available until then for sure, 
> unfortunately), we will now only include a minimal set of core 
> attributes about firmware resources in the core document and create 
> another draft that will extend this resource collection in order to 
> become a TEEP conform representation later on.
> 
> 
> Viele Grüße,
> 
> Henk
> 
> p.s.
> 
> The contradiction I see is that you could use ASN.1 (which is not a 
> format/encoding - which I was trying to hint at wrt your list of 
> formats, but Carsten was way more elaborate as me on that topic as I 
> just saw) in a CMS scenario, but cannot (only) use ASN.1, if you want to 
> accommodate more than encodings that are typically defined via the ASN.1 
> data model language.
> 
> Typically, you (have to / should?) decide on a "clever intermediate 
> language", if you do the latter, or am I missing something here? You 
> could use multiple languages at once - I guess - and try to keep them 
> aligned during the design period of the vocabulary, but I would not like 
> to be the person who has to do that.
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/23/2017 04:27 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>> Hi Henk,
>>
>>> Hello Hannes,
>>
>>> tl;dr I though the consensus was going into the direction of a small 
>>> list of formats. I consider this to be correct unless consensus shows 
>>> otherwise.
>>
>> [Hannes] That would be good. But let's see when we get to the point of 
>> selecting.
>>
>>
>> The remainder of this email are just observations:
>>
>> This statement
>>
>> On 11/23/2017 11:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>> I may be hard to believe but some companies are actually interested 
>>> in bringing a standardized manifest format to the market.
>>
>> in combination with these statements
>>
>> On 11/23/2017 10:01 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>> There is separate text in the charter that says the group will pick 
>>> one or multiple encoding formats.
>>
>> On 11/23/2017 09:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>>> Format here means having an ASN.1, XML, JSON, CBOR, etc. encodings of 
>>> the manifest (+ the appropriate security mechanisms).
>>
>> seem to contradict each other?
>>
>>
>> Either there is a standardized manifest format, or there are multiple 
>> based on the same data model? Also including ASN.1 in the list is 
>> somehow confusing to me. If we are talking about format here, I think
>> ASN.1 does not fit that list.
>>
>> [Hannes] I don't see the contradiction. When we submitted our initial 
>> draft version, which described a solution based on ASN1./DER + CMS, 
>> some folks said "I want JSON/JOSE" and yet others said "I want 
>> CBOR/COSE". Hence, the charter text changed by delaying the decision 
>> to a later time in the working group. What matters ultimately is what 
>> one has to implement rather than what clever intermediate language we 
>> use or how we structure documents.
>>
>> And it might also sound surprising, but because some companies (e.g. a 
>> few that rely on SOTA) are interested in to market solutions, we 
>> started to address this in drafts before the first TEEP BoF. Now that 
>> TEEP is emerging, we are splitting the work wrt firmware, and 
>> suspended some of it to wait for TEEP manifest definition output in 
>> order to retain interoperability - which is effectively a delay 
>> already (but addressing a bigger group of stakeholder seems vital, 
>> so... viable & necessary).
>>
>> [Hannes] I am not sure I understood this statement. The Open Trust 
>> Protocol, which is the only solution so far submitted to the TEEP 
>> group, does not define a manifest format. At the TEEP BOF folks argued 
>> that it would be a good idea to re-use the manifest format from SUIT 
>> in TEEP but that hasn't been done so far (although I think it is a 
>> good idea).
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
>>
>> Viele Grüße,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose 
>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or 
>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Henk Birkholz , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
Thread-Index: AQHTY+nKOBJ15iHy80Of+kwRfWqQtaMhEE6AgACHNyCAABorAIAACz8wgAARgoCAAER7EIAAE1qAgAABbACAAADAYA==
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 16:29:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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In-Reply-To: 
References:  <589.1511394367@obiwan.sandelman.ca>   
From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2017 08:32:51 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: Hannes Tschofenig 
Cc: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 8:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <
Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:

> Hi Suhas,
>
>
>
> I think we are mixing different things here. What I am proposing is a nee=
d
> to discover the location of the firmware server that has the manifest and
> the image, when the device is ready to upgrade  (say, using polling, for
> example)
>
> The above list of things you have is way more complicated than what is
> being asked. I think we shouldn't mix "firmware server location discovery=
"
> with "capabilities discovery or negotiation mechanism"
>
>
>
> But there are also other people in this and they have raised additional
> ideas. That=E2=80=99s the slippery slope.
>

As long as we separate the concerns and ask for consensus , it is not a
slippery slope. From BOF discussions, there was more support for former
than the latter, IIRC.

Thanks
Suhas


>
>
> Ciao
>
> Hannes
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>

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On Thu, Nov 23, 2017 at 8:09 AM, Hannes Tschofenig &l=
t;Hannes.Tsc=
hofenig@arm.com> wrote:



















Hi Suhas, 


=C2=A0


I think we are mixing different things here. What I =
am proposing is a need to discover the location of the firmware server that=
 has the manifest and the image, when the device is ready to upgrade=C2=A0 =
(say, using polling, for example)






The above list of things you have is way more compli=
cated than what is being asked. I think we shouldn't mix "firmware=
 server location discovery" with "capabilities discovery or negot=
iation mechanism"






=C2=A0


But there are also other =
people in this and they have raised additional ideas. That=E2=80=99s the sl=
ippery slope.

As long as we separate the concerns and ask for consensus=
 , it is not a slippery slope. From BOF discussions, there was more support=
 for former than the latter, IIRC.

Thanks
Suhas
=C2=A0




=C2=A0






Ciao


Hannes







IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.







--001a1143e9b6c77247055f06789b--


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From: Brendan Moran 
To: Michael Richardson 
CC: "Dr. Pala" , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Quantum resistance in firmware formats
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From: Cullen Jennings 
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 21:52:59 -0700
Cc: Michael Richardson , Suhas Nandakumar , "suit-chairs@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" 
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To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" , The IESG 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
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> On Nov 27, 2017, at 12:24 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) =
 wrote:
>=20
>=20
> The charter text at this link is intended to represent the consensus =
reached from the hums during BoF. To confirm these changes on the list, =
we have posted updated charter text. If anyone believes there are =
concerns with the charter text that have not been adequately addressed, =
please raise those concerns ASAP.

Yep, I have concerns. I don't think what I see in the tracker is at all =
representing consensus from the list or the BOF.=20

Can we get an actual answer to who is editing this and who is deciding =
what has consensus or not? We also have an issue in that the =
charter-ietf-suit-00-07 in the data tracker and charter-ietf-suit-00-08 =
look identical to me. Is this a tracker bug? Do you think they changed?=20=


I think whoever is editing the charter should be emailing it to the suit =
list along with changes and explanation of what changed. There has been =
a lot of discussion and agreement on the list and I do not see any =
changes in the charter to reflect nor do I see discussion on the list to =
indicate what went in the charter and what people decided there was no =
consensus on.=20

Could someone on the IESG post the text they see for this and let me =
know if has changed since the BOF?


Thanks, Cullen=20





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From: Cullen Jennings 
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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 21:58:16 -0700
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To: Michael Richardson 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] SUIT Charter: Firmware Server Discovery and Download Mechanism
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> On Nov 22, 2017, at 4:46 PM, Michael Richardson =
 wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
>> I would like to propose following addition to the above list
>=20
>> *   Mechanisms to discover new firmware is available and the location
>> to download it from
>=20
> I'm actually okay with this in the charter, provided that we don't =
invent
> anything new.   I can imagine doint this with CoAP OBSERVE, DNS-SD, =
HTTP requests,
> and I'm sure I'll think of four more in a minute.


I'm in favor of using one of those ( or one of the other likely =
candidates ). I think this is much more important for real world =
deployments than things like multiple signatures and we have lots of =
experience with actual systems that do this. This is also one of the =
areas that actually needs standardization to have interoperable systems =
vs something like the manifest which is more "here is a nice well =
reviewed design you can use".=20



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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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I don't think we can pick any absolute way this work. I think we have to =
have a framework flexible enough to require this and not require it. =
Many firmware updates of devices come along with accepting a new Terms =
Of Service. Some people run systems, be they in a home, factory, or =
large network, and they want to ensure upgrades don't happen unless if =
is a version that has been verified tow work with the rest of the =
system. I'm not keen on an upgrade to a device in my house that add =
analytics that impact my privacy.=20

So yes, some IoT device will be built to upgrade automatically whenever =
the vendor wants regardless of anyone else. But some other IoT device =
will allow for a model where someone other than the vendor can grant =
permission to install a certain upgrade. (I don't think this permission =
implies a need for second signature). I think what we do here needs to =
support both of these models.=20

Similarly there is a downgrade issue. Some vendors will want to be able =
to downgrade their devices and in particular may want to support a =
factor reset that takes the device back to the version of the firmware =
it had when it left the factory. Obviously in some cases this reduces =
the security so some device will not allow it but it can reduce the odds =
of bricking a few million devices. Again, I think we will need to =
support both models.=20




> On Nov 15, 2017, at 10:16 AM, David A. Wheeler  =
wrote:
>=20
> I think a vitally-important requirement is that end-users MUST be able =
to NOT update software.
>=20
> In many cases, it's valuable to automatically update software, and
> internet-connected devices make that relatively easy.
>=20
> But there are many situations where updates must NOT occur.
> There's a disturbing trend where people who own the devices are
> increasingly not allowed to control them.  In the end, the =
end-user/owner
> should be able to decide if updates are acceptable, and when.
>=20
> Thanks.
>=20
> --- David A. Wheeler
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


From nobody Tue Nov 28 21:06:47 2017
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To: Hannes Tschofenig 
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> On Nov 23, 2017, at 9:13 AM, Hannes Tschofenig =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Suhas,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> The way we would like this to work is not to have the update server =
create these manifests in real-time, based on what the device asks for. =
Instead, the manifests are created and signed by the developer (using a =
tool or a web service). The update server is mainly a repository. This =
approach provides better security.
>=20
> =20

How would that work? Would the update server, an online computer on the =
internet, need have the private key to sign the manifests? I can assure =
you that many IoT vendors do not handle their software signing keys that =
way.=20

I imagine this working that a given vendor would likely only use one =
format but an update server could serve up manifests in any format. Sure =
one format would be nice but no matter which one you choose, a bunch of =
vendors will not like it and will do something else. The important part =
is the deciding the semantic level information and design choices. The =
syntax is really not the hard part of any of this yet different vendors =
have strong opinions about this often with very good reasons.=20







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To: Cullen Jennings , "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" , The IESG 
Cc: Michael Richardson , "suit-chairs@ietf.org" , Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
References:  <19053.1511458544@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <991ECBD7-3005-48D9-A7C7-C79189D48284@iii.ca>
From: Adam Roach 
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On 11/28/17 22:52, Cullen Jennings wrote:
> Could someone on the IESG post the text they see for this and let me know if has changed since the BOF?


This seems to capture the changes between the BOF version and the 
version that is up for approval:

https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2Fwithmilestones-00-08.txt

/a


From nobody Wed Nov 29 05:04:41 2017
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From: Cullen Jennings 
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 06:04:34 -0700
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To: Adam Roach , The IESG 
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Thanks Adam.

OK, the text you are getting in that diff is different that what I got =
from the data tracker as the -08 version. Suhas also got the same thing =
as me.  Both Hannes and I have been surprised by what is in the tracker =
and I think it has become clear to me that the tracker is broken.  =46rom =
a procedural point of view, I think you need to email the charter, =
preferably with diffs, to the mailing list. I for one have not reviews =
this text in Adam's diff.   I'm sure other people have also not seen =
this. It seems reasonable to send a clear charter to the list and give =
people reasonable time to comment on that before the IESG makes a =
decision.=20

I don't believe this text in adams diff represents consensus on the list =
so back to question that no one seems to answer   ... Who is editing =
this text and who is deciding consensus on the list?


As FYI ... the text I got from data tracker for -08 was=20


Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need
for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for =
constrained
devices.  Security experts, researchers, and regulators recommend that =
all IoT
devices be equipped with such a mechanism.  While there are many =
proprietary
firmware update mechanisms in use today, there is a lack of a modern
interoperable approach of securely updating the firmware in IoT devices.

A firmware update solution consists of several components, including:
- A mechanism to transport firmware images to compatible devices.
- A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a
firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and
dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic =
information
for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion. - The =
firmware
image itself.

RFC 4108 provides a manifest format that uses the Cryptographic Message =
Syntax
(CMS) to protect firmware packages. More than ten years have passed =
since the
publication of RFC 4108, and greater experience with IoT deployments has =
led to
additional functionality, requiring a contemporary standardized solution =
to be
defined.

This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution that will =
be
usable on Class 1 (as defined in RFC 7228) devices, that is usable on =
devices
with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash.  The solution may apply to more =
capable
devices as well.  This group will not define any new transport or =
discovery
mechanisms, but may describe how to use existing mechanisms within the =
solution.

In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on
'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', which took place at =
Trinity
College in Dublin, Ireland.  The main goal of the workshop was to foster =
a
discussion on requirements, challenges, and solutions for bringing =
software and
firmware updates to IoT devices. This workshop also made clear that =
there are
challenges with misaligned incentives and complex value chains.  It is
nevertheless seen as important to create standard building blocks that =
help
interested parties implement and deploy a solid firmware update =
mechanism.

In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely:
- An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the
involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. - One or more =
manifest
format specifications.

The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents of a
manifest. Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group =
will pick
a small number of formats (and their associated cryptographic =
mechanisms) to
encode the manifest. A lower number of formats is preferred to reduce =
code size
for supporting decoders on devices receiving a manifest and to maximize
interoperability of solutions. To support a wide range of deployment =
scenarios,
the formats are expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of =
different
software sources and permission models.

This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic software =
update
mechanism for use by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead =
this group
will focus on firmware development practices in the embedded industry.=20=

Software update solutions that target updating software other than the =
firmware
binaries are also out of scope.

This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon =
vendors and
OEMs that develop IoT operating systems.





> On Nov 28, 2017, at 11:05 PM, Adam Roach  wrote:
>=20
> On 11/28/17 22:52, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>> Could someone on the IESG post the text they see for this and let me =
know if has changed since the BOF?
>=20
>=20
> This seems to capture the changes between the BOF version and the =
version that is up for approval:
>=20
> =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fd=
oc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdat=
atracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2Fwithmilestones-00-08.txt
>=20
> /a
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


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To: The IESG , "suit\@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
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{trimming the CC list a bit}

Adam Roach  wrote:
    > On 11/28/17 22:52, Cullen Jennings wrote:
    >> Could someone on the IESG post the text they see for this and let me
    >> know if has changed since the BOF?


    > This seems to capture the changes between the BOF version and the
    > version that is up for approval:

    > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2Fwithmilestones-00-05.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2Fwithmilestones-00-08.txt

Adam: Given that Cullen has raised questions about whether the datatracker is
      returning the correct text, it would have been better to have posted
      the text to the list....  The side-by-side diff format wouldn't have
      worked, but rfcdiff has a unidiff format I think.

      {On this charter I wish that we had github-style pull requests that we could
      discuss in the mailing list....   I seem to see the same text Cullen saw, so
      that's good.}

Three minor editing suggestions for the chairs, or whomever is editing:
1) the bullet points were better off with *, and the third bullet point got
   wrapped.  Also the bullet points in "In particular this group aims..."
   have gotten wrapped and are hard to see.

2) I suggest that "In June of 2016 the "... be moved up.  I'd even make it
   the first intro paragraph, if not the second.  it's awkward where it is.

3) RFC 4108... More than... I'd have written, "While RFC4108...; in the ten
   years since, greater experience with..."
   But, this is also creates more complex sentence structure, which is often
   a bad thing.

On substantive comments about the -08 text:

many have pointed out that this makes no sense:

  A lower number of formats is preferred to reduce code size
  for supporting decoders on devices receiving a manifest and to maximize
  interoperability of solutions.

constrained devices are unlikely to support more than one format.
The reason to have fewer formats is so that tools to generate and audit
manifests will be easier to develop and interoperate.  Change to:

  A lower number of formats is preferred as it increases the likely hood
  that there will be widely available and complete tools for generating
  and auditing the manifests.
  The number of formats is unlikely to affect the devices receiving the
  updates and they are likely to support only a single format.

>This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic software update
>mechanism for use by rich operating systems, like Linux, but instead this group

I suggest maybe: "s/like Linux/like Linux, or Android/"

(I think it's worth marking Android which can upgrade via blob as out of
scope: at least for now. There are many other interactions involving other
OTA updates, and I think we all agree that APKs or applications are out of
scope. Apple iPhone iOS being a single vendor totally vertical integration, I
don't think will ever be in scope)

>Software update solutions that target updating software other than the firmware
>binaries are also out of scope.

I'm not sure what this means.  It seems like maybe it might be excluding an
embedded system from updating the firmware in it's wifi or 3G baseband
processor.   Maybe it has to do with software configuration stuff?

If Android or home routers that run Linux were in scope, would an update to
the DTS be in scope?  https://elinux.org/Device_Tree_Reference  I know that
there are other embedded operating systems that contain configuration data.

For instance, two identical actuators might run exactly the same code, yet
one of them controls a normally open valve on GPIO pin 12 and the other
controls a normally closed value on GPIO pin 9.  Is the update of what might
be considered configuration in scope?    It probably all looks like firmware
to the installers...

>This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and
>OEMs that develop IoT operating systems.

It would be nice if someone could indicate how we are going to do that.
For instance, would having an interim meeting at some embedded conference be
within this scope?    Should have have some formal liason process?

Would the chairs be willing to maintain a set of canonical (having been
subject to a WG consensus call...) slides as to what we are doing, where we
are, such that participants in the WG would feel confident representing the
views of the WG in other fora?

--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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To: suit 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Make it clear that end-users MUST be able to NOT update
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Cullen Jennings  wrote:
    > I don't think we can pick any absolute way this work. I think we have
    > to have a framework flexible enough to require this and not require
    > it. Many firmware updates of devices come along with accepting a new
    > Terms Of Service. Some people run systems, be they in a home, factory,
    > or large network, and they want to ensure upgrades don't happen unless
    > if is a version that has been verified tow work with the rest of the
    > system. I'm not keen on an upgrade to a device in my house that add
    > analytics that impact my privacy.

At the IOTSF NYC meeting, a speaker mentioned that the entertainment system
was upgraded in-flight.... and then... because it didn't work, they went back
to a version from 2008 or something, and as a result none of the certificates
worked!
So clearly the airline (device owner!) needs to control this, yet the
manufacturer has to release the fixes as quickly as they can so that those
who want to upgrade can do so.

    > So yes, some IoT device will be built to upgrade automatically whenever
    > the vendor wants regardless of anyone else. But some other IoT device
    > will allow for a model where someone other than the vendor can grant
    > permission to install a certain upgrade. (I don't think this permission
    > implies a need for second signature). I think what we do here needs to
    > support both of these models.

I agree: a second signature is only one way to do this. It does have nice
scaling properties.

{am I the only one writing down movie plots as we go?}

--
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To: Michael Richardson , The IESG , "suit@ietf.org" 
References:  <19053.1511458544@obiwan.sandelman.ca>  <991ECBD7-3005-48D9-A7C7-C79189D48284@iii.ca> <97c9f8d9-7d8c-5d86-a87a-1807c82e5fd2@nostrum.com> <3395.1511969104@obiwan.sandelman.ca>
From: Eliot Lear 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
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Hi Michael,


On 11/29/17 4:25 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
> I suggest maybe: "s/like Linux/like Linux, or Android/"
>
> (I think it's worth marking Android which can upgrade via blob as out o=
f
> scope: at least for now. There are many other interactions involving ot=
her
> OTA updates, and I think we all agree that APKs or applications are out=
 of
> scope. Apple iPhone iOS being a single vendor totally vertical integrat=
ion, I don't think will ever be in scope)

I don't mind one way or the other,=C2=A0 but in the new text, there is on=
e
aspect that confuses me:

> ... but instead this group=C2=A0 will focus on firmware development
practices in the embedded industry.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

development practices or distribution mechanisms?

The former seems to be quite broad.

Eliot



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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:18:24 -0500
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To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Michael Richardson , The IESG ,  "suit@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
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To briefly answer some of the questions asked on process, I am
updating the charter, per the consensus decisions by the chairs.  The
chairs typically make the consensus calls for all working groups and
BoFs.  The calls were made in the meeting and reflected in the charter
text that was posted shortly after the meeting.  The charter review
text is separate from a working charter in how the tools handle it.
For a BOF, there should only be working text, so I am not sure what
happened to create working text.

The chairs will respond to the other questions asked.  I will wait for
their assessment before any changes are made to the text or to the
charter review since it has been posted for a couple of weeks.  If
there are just simple edits, there is no reason to postpone the
telechat date.  The WG decided some of the major decisions would
happen within the WG and not in the charter discussion, which should
alleviate some possible concerns.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
>
> On 11/29/17 4:25 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>> I suggest maybe: "s/like Linux/like Linux, or Android/"
>>
>> (I think it's worth marking Android which can upgrade via blob as out of
>> scope: at least for now. There are many other interactions involving other
>> OTA updates, and I think we all agree that APKs or applications are out of
>> scope. Apple iPhone iOS being a single vendor totally vertical integration, I don't think will ever be in scope)
>
> I don't mind one way or the other,  but in the new text, there is one
> aspect that confuses me:
>
>> ... but instead this group  will focus on firmware development
> practices in the embedded industry.
>
> development practices or distribution mechanisms?
>
> The former seems to be quite broad.
>
> Eliot
>
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Wed Nov 29 08:33:04 2017
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Subject: [Suit] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with COMMENT)
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Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-suit-00-08: Yes

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for doing this one.

For "While there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today,
there is a lack of a modern interoperable approach of securely updating the
firmware in IoT devices", perhaps "there is no modern interoperable approach
allowing secure updates to firmware in IoT devices" might be easier to read.

Since you mention IoTSU, perhaps it's worth providing a pointer to the workshop
report, now available as https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc8240/.

I wasn't able to connect "In particular this group aims to publish several
documents, namely: - An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a
description of the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. - One
or more manifest format specifications"

with

"The initial focus of this group will be development of the contents of a
manifest".

So, the initial focus of the group is *not* to specify an architecture? I lack
comprehension.

As an aside, as Adam noted, if that's a bullet list with two list elements, it
would be clearer if it was formatted that way :-)



From nobody Wed Nov 29 08:41:08 2017
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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 11:40:19 -0500
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To: Eliot Lear 
Cc: Michael Richardson , The IESG ,  "suit@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question
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Also, the difference between 7 and 8 was an attempt to fix the wrap
around issue on bullets, but it was not successful.  This is just
editorial and can be adjusted at any time.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 11:18 AM, Kathleen Moriarty
 wrote:
> To briefly answer some of the questions asked on process, I am
> updating the charter, per the consensus decisions by the chairs.  The
> chairs typically make the consensus calls for all working groups and
> BoFs.  The calls were made in the meeting and reflected in the charter
> text that was posted shortly after the meeting.  The charter review
> text is separate from a working charter in how the tools handle it.
> For a BOF, there should only be working text, so I am not sure what
> happened to create working text.
>
> The chairs will respond to the other questions asked.  I will wait for
> their assessment before any changes are made to the text or to the
> charter review since it has been posted for a couple of weeks.  If
> there are just simple edits, there is no reason to postpone the
> telechat date.  The WG decided some of the major decisions would
> happen within the WG and not in the charter discussion, which should
> alleviate some possible concerns.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 10:38 AM, Eliot Lear  wrote:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>>
>> On 11/29/17 4:25 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>> I suggest maybe: "s/like Linux/like Linux, or Android/"
>>>
>>> (I think it's worth marking Android which can upgrade via blob as out of
>>> scope: at least for now. There are many other interactions involving other
>>> OTA updates, and I think we all agree that APKs or applications are out of
>>> scope. Apple iPhone iOS being a single vendor totally vertical integration, I don't think will ever be in scope)
>>
>> I don't mind one way or the other,  but in the new text, there is one
>> aspect that confuses me:
>>
>>> ... but instead this group  will focus on firmware development
>> practices in the embedded industry.
>>
>> development practices or distribution mechanisms?
>>
>> The former seems to be quite broad.
>>
>> Eliot
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Wed Nov 29 11:21:59 2017
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Subject: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-suit-00-08: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

>From reading the mailing list and doing my own review, there seem to be a bunch
of open issues with this charter that would benefit from further discussion by
interested participants before the WG gets chartered. Some of these might just
be the result of lack of precision in the language used, but I think that is
actually pretty important for clarity in a WG charter. The issues are:

1. On the list there seems to be disagreement about the interpretation of this
text: "A lower number of formats is preferred to reduce code size for
supporting decoders on devices receiving a manifest and to maximize
interoperability of solutions." I also find myself confused by this (lower than
what? is there some upper bound?).

2. Michael Richardson raised some good question about this text that seem like
they warrant clarification, or at least a consensus call: "Software update
solutions that target updating software other than the firmware binaries are
also out of scope."

3. The milestones seem to use the term "Manifest format" to refer to something
that the charter calls "the contents of a mainfest" (I think), in contrast to
the multiple "formats" discussed in the charter. Given that there has also been
discussion on the list about format vs. serialization and the absence of a data
model specification, I think the charter and milestones would benefit from
being crystal clear about what deliverables the WG is expected to produce and
should use the same language throughout to name those deliverables.

4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle of the
external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing list.
There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work that
could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it to be
re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important part of
external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.

I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought I would
check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out these
issues.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Some lesser issues:

5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of existing
discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated milestone(s)
for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.

6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the background
material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
(preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and edited so that
it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to constrain what
the group does going forward.



From nobody Wed Nov 29 11:29:56 2017
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From: Dave Thaler 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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From nobody Wed Nov 29 11:33:44 2017
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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 14:32:54 -0500
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To: Alissa Cooper 
Cc: The IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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The chairs wanted to respond to the questions on list, so I will leave
that to them, but need to make an important correction below.

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Alissa Cooper  wrote:
> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-suit-00-08: Block
>
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>
>
>
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> BLOCK:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >From reading the mailing list and doing my own review, there seem to be a bunch
> of open issues with this charter that would benefit from further discussion by
> interested participants before the WG gets chartered. Some of these might just
> be the result of lack of precision in the language used, but I think that is
> actually pretty important for clarity in a WG charter. The issues are:
>
> 1. On the list there seems to be disagreement about the interpretation of this
> text: "A lower number of formats is preferred to reduce code size for
> supporting decoders on devices receiving a manifest and to maximize
> interoperability of solutions." I also find myself confused by this (lower than
> what? is there some upper bound?).
>
> 2. Michael Richardson raised some good question about this text that seem like
> they warrant clarification, or at least a consensus call: "Software update
> solutions that target updating software other than the firmware binaries are
> also out of scope."
>
> 3. The milestones seem to use the term "Manifest format" to refer to something
> that the charter calls "the contents of a mainfest" (I think), in contrast to
> the multiple "formats" discussed in the charter. Given that there has also been
> discussion on the list about format vs. serialization and the absence of a data
> model specification, I think the charter and milestones would benefit from
> being crystal clear about what deliverables the WG is expected to produce and
> should use the same language throughout to name those deliverables.
>
> 4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle of the
> external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing list.
> There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work that
> could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it to be
> re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important part of
> external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.

The charter did NOT change during the external review period.  The
charter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the external
review, then the external review was requested.  The changes from
version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus calls during the BoF.  The
update to 8 was an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
was no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus calls
in the room with the exact text being displayed and discussed.

The re-charter was likely because when the page was first created,
someone had put the charter text where charter text goes for an
established WG.

>
> I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought I would
> check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out these
> issues.

The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an earlier email,
I would like to see the outcome before changing anything as I'd like
to follow our normal process and respect the chairs roll in the
process to assess consensus and drive the work forward.

Best regards,
Kathleen

>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Some lesser issues:
>
> 5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of existing
> discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated milestone(s)
> for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.
>
> 6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the background
> material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
> (preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and edited so that
> it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to constrain what
> the group does going forward.
>
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Alissa Cooper 
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> On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> 4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle =
of the
>> external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing =
list.
>> There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work =
that
>> could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it =
to be
>> re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important =
part of
>> external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.
>=20
> The charter did NOT change during the external review period. =20

In the datatracker I see that the external review period began 11/3/17 =
with the -04 version of the charter and the message to new-work went out =
that day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/ =


Perhaps folks disagree about whether the changes are material, but the =
charter certainly changed from -04 to -07/-08.

Alissa

> The
> charter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the external
> review, then the external review was requested.  The changes from
> version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus calls during the BoF.  The
> update to 8 was an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
> was no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus calls
> in the room with the exact text being displayed and discussed.
>=20
> The re-charter was likely because when the page was first created,
> someone had put the charter text where charter text goes for an
> established WG.
>=20
>>=20
>> I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought =
I would
>> check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out =
these
>> issues.
>=20
> The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an earlier email,
> I would like to see the outcome before changing anything as I'd like
> to follow our normal process and respect the chairs roll in the
> process to assess consensus and drive the work forward.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Some lesser issues:
>>=20
>> 5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of =
existing
>> discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated =
milestone(s)
>> for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.
>>=20
>> 6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the =
background
>> material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
>> (preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and =
edited so that
>> it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to =
constrain what
>> the group does going forward.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen


--Apple-Mail=_7E9A0B2D-4B56-4D8A-81E9-693037E7A43C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=us-ascii


On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

4. This charter changed in some pretty =
important ways in the middle of the
external review =
period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing list.
There was also an error in the original announcement sent to =
new-work that
could cause confusion (it said this was a =
re-charter). I asked for it to be
re-sent but it doesn't =
look like it was. Since this is an important part of
external review, I really don't think this step should be =
skipped.

The charter did NOT change during the =
external review period.  

In the datatracker I see that the external review =
period began 11/3/17 with the -04 version of the charter and the message =
to new-work went out that day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/=


Perhaps folks disagree about =
whether the changes are material, but the charter certainly changed from =
-04 to -07/-08.

Alissa

The
charter was updated to version 7 prior to =
the start of the external
review, then the external review was =
requested.  The changes from
version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus =
calls during the BoF.  The
update to 8 was an attempt to fix a =
formatting issue, but the result
was no change. The BoF chairs were very =
clear with the consensus calls
in the room with the exact text being =
displayed and discussed.

The re-charter was likely because when the page =
was first created,
someone had put the charter text where charter =
text goes for an
established WG.


I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I =
thought I would
check to see if folks would be willing to =
take the time to sort out these
issues.

The chairs will be responding on list and I said =
in an earlier email,
I would like to see the outcome before =
changing anything as I'd like
to follow our normal process and respect =
the chairs roll in the
process to assess consensus and drive the =
work forward.

Best =
regards,
Kathleen



---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
COMMENT:
---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Some lesser issues:
5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe =
the use of existing
discovery and transport mechanisms, =
but there are not associated milestone(s)
for this work. =
Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.

6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the =
background
material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 =
should either be removed
(preferably), or shifted around =
to the beginning of the text and edited so that
it's clear =
that it's there for background purposes and not to constrain what
the group does going forward.





-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

=

--Apple-Mail=_7E9A0B2D-4B56-4D8A-81E9-693037E7A43C--


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 15:27:23 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Alissa Cooper 
Cc: IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alissa Cooper  wrote:
>
> On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>  wrote:
>
>
> 4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle of the
> external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing list.
> There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work that
> could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it to be
> re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important part of
> external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.
>
>
> The charter did NOT change during the external review period.
>
>
> In the datatracker I see that the external review period began 11/3/17 with
> the -04 version of the charter and the message to new-work went out that
> day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/

Right, I forgot, however, the external review was set for an extended
period of time with the understanding that it could change from the
BoF, leaving 2 additional weeks for discussion after the changes were
made.

>
> Perhaps folks disagree about whether the changes are material, but the
> charter certainly changed from -04 to -07/-08.

The updates reflect consensus decisions of the BoF.  I was careful to
make sure they were posted 2 weeks prior to this telechat.

Regards,
Kathleen

>
> Alissa
>
> The
> charter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the external
> review, then the external review was requested.  The changes from
> version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus calls during the BoF.  The
> update to 8 was an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
> was no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus calls
> in the room with the exact text being displayed and discussed.
>
> The re-charter was likely because when the page was first created,
> someone had put the charter text where charter text goes for an
> established WG.
>
>
> I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought I
> would
> check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out these
> issues.
>
>
> The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an earlier email,
> I would like to see the outcome before changing anything as I'd like
> to follow our normal process and respect the chairs roll in the
> process to assess consensus and drive the work forward.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Some lesser issues:
>
> 5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of
> existing
> discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated
> milestone(s)
> for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.
>
> 6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the background
> material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
> (preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and edited so
> that
> it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to constrain what
> the group does going forward.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 15:33:52 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Alissa Cooper 
Cc: IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
 wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alissa Cooper  wrote:
>>
>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> 4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle of the
>> external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing list.
>> There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work that
>> could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it to be
>> re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important part of
>> external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.
>>
>>
>> The charter did NOT change during the external review period.
>>
>>
>> In the datatracker I see that the external review period began 11/3/17 with
>> the -04 version of the charter and the message to new-work went out that
>> day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/
>
> Right, I forgot, however, the external review was set for an extended
> period of time with the understanding that it could change from the
> BoF, leaving 2 additional weeks for discussion after the changes were
> made.
>
>>
>> Perhaps folks disagree about whether the changes are material, but the
>> charter certainly changed from -04 to -07/-08.
>
> The updates reflect consensus decisions of the BoF.  I was careful to
> make sure they were posted 2 weeks prior to this telechat.

I do recall raising this point in one of the IESG/IAB joint
discussions on hot topics.

Regards,
Kathleen
>
> Regards,
> Kathleen
>
>>
>> Alissa
>>
>> The
>> charter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the external
>> review, then the external review was requested.  The changes from
>> version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus calls during the BoF.  The
>> update to 8 was an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
>> was no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus calls
>> in the room with the exact text being displayed and discussed.
>>
>> The re-charter was likely because when the page was first created,
>> someone had put the charter text where charter text goes for an
>> established WG.
>>
>>
>> I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought I
>> would
>> check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out these
>> issues.
>>
>>
>> The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an earlier email,
>> I would like to see the outcome before changing anything as I'd like
>> to follow our normal process and respect the chairs roll in the
>> process to assess consensus and drive the work forward.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Some lesser issues:
>>
>> 5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of
>> existing
>> discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated
>> milestone(s)
>> for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.
>>
>> 6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the background
>> material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
>> (preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and edited so
>> that
>> it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to constrain what
>> the group does going forward.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen



-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Alissa Cooper 
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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 15:51:07 -0500
Cc: IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
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To: Kathleen Moriarty 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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> On Nov 29, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
 wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alissa Cooper > wrote:
>>=20
>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> 4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle =
of the
>> external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing =
list.
>> There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work =
that
>> could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it =
to be
>> re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important =
part of
>> external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The charter did NOT change during the external review period.
>>=20
>>=20
>> In the datatracker I see that the external review period began =
11/3/17 with
>> the -04 version of the charter and the message to new-work went out =
that
>> day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/
>=20
> Right, I forgot, however, the external review was set for an extended
> period of time with the understanding that it could change from the
> BoF, leaving 2 additional weeks for discussion after the changes were
> made.

My point is that external review is, in part, targeted towards reviewers =
external to the IETF (i.e., folks participating in other SDOs). This is =
why we send proposed charters to new-work. Subscribers to that list saw =
an announcement of a charter (listed as a re-charter) on 11/3, asking =
for feedback by 11/13. Nothing further was sent to that list after the =
changes were made on 11/15, and there=E2=80=99s no reason why external =
reviewers subscribed to that list would know that the charter had =
changed or that the external review period was extended.

I think we need to act the way we would want other SDOs to act towards =
us.

>=20
>>=20
>> Perhaps folks disagree about whether the changes are material, but =
the
>> charter certainly changed from -04 to -07/-08.
>=20
> The updates reflect consensus decisions of the BoF.  I was careful to
> make sure they were posted 2 weeks prior to this telechat.

See above =E2=80=94 they were posted to the datatracker, but not to =
new-work.

Alissa

>=20
> Regards,
> Kathleen
>=20
>>=20
>> Alissa
>>=20
>> The
>> charter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the external
>> review, then the external review was requested.  The changes from
>> version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus calls during the BoF.  The
>> update to 8 was an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
>> was no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus =
calls
>> in the room with the exact text being displayed and discussed.
>>=20
>> The re-charter was likely because when the page was first created,
>> someone had put the charter text where charter text goes for an
>> established WG.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought =
I
>> would
>> check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out =
these
>> issues.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an earlier email,
>> I would like to see the outcome before changing anything as I'd like
>> to follow our normal process and respect the chairs roll in the
>> process to assess consensus and drive the work forward.
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Some lesser issues:
>>=20
>> 5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of
>> existing
>> discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated
>> milestone(s)
>> for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.
>>=20
>> 6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the =
background
>> material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
>> (preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and =
edited so
>> that
>> it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to =
constrain what
>> the group does going forward.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen


--Apple-Mail=_60B4EF7C-8EDB-4650-8CC6-9546FDC2899B
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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On Nov 29, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alissa Cooper =
<alissa@cooperw.in> =
wrote:

On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:


4. This charter changed in some =
pretty important ways in the middle of the
external review =
period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing list.
There was also an error in the original announcement sent to =
new-work that
could cause confusion (it said this was a =
re-charter). I asked for it to be
re-sent but it doesn't =
look like it was. Since this is an important part of
external review, I really don't think this step should be =
skipped.


The charter did NOT =
change during the external review period.

In the datatracker I see that the external review period =
began 11/3/17 with
the -04 version of the charter and the =
message to new-work went out that
day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/=


Right, I forgot, however, the external =
review was set for an extended
period of time with the understanding =
that it could change from the
BoF, leaving 2 additional weeks for =
discussion after the changes were
made.

My =
point is that external review is, in part, targeted towards reviewers =
external to the IETF (i.e., folks participating in other SDOs). This is =
why we send proposed charters to new-work. Subscribers to that list saw =
an announcement of a charter (listed as a re-charter) on 11/3, asking =
for feedback by 11/13. Nothing further was sent to that list after the =
changes were made on 11/15, and there=E2=80=99s no reason why external =
reviewers subscribed to that list would know that the charter had =
changed or that the external review period was extended.

I think we need to act the way we would want other =
SDOs to act towards us.



Perhaps folks disagree about whether the =
changes are material, but the
charter certainly changed =
from -04 to -07/-08.

The updates reflect consensus decisions =
of the BoF.  I was careful to
make sure they were posted 2 weeks prior =
to this telechat.

See above =
=E2=80=94 they were posted to the datatracker, but not to =
new-work.

Alissa


Regards,
Kathleen


Alissa

Thecharter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the =
external
review, then the external review was requested. =
 The changes from
version 6 to 7 were a result of =
consensus calls during the BoF.  The
update to 8 was =
an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
was =
no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus calls
in the room with the exact text being displayed and =
discussed.

The re-charter was likely =
because when the page was first created,
someone had put =
the charter text where charter text goes for an
established =
WG.


I'm willing to move to =
ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought I
would
check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to =
sort out these
issues.


The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an =
earlier email,
I would like to see the outcome before =
changing anything as I'd like
to follow our normal process =
and respect the chairs roll in the
process to assess =
consensus and drive the work forward.

Best =
regards,
Kathleen



---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
COMMENT:
---------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

Some lesser issues:
5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe =
the use of
existing
discovery and transport =
mechanisms, but there are not associated
milestone(s)
for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an =
oversight.

6. I agree with the folks on the =
list who have said that the background
material about the =
IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
(preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text =
and edited so
that
it's clear that it's =
there for background purposes and not to constrain what
the =
group does going forward.





--

Best regards,
Kathleen





-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

=

--Apple-Mail=_60B4EF7C-8EDB-4650-8CC6-9546FDC2899B--


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 16:07:43 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Alissa Cooper 
Cc: IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Alissa Cooper  wrote:
>
> On Nov 29, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alissa Cooper  wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>  wrote:
>
>
> 4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle of th=
e
> external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing lis=
t.
> There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work tha=
t
> could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it to =
be
> re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important part =
of
> external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.
>
>
> The charter did NOT change during the external review period.
>
>
> In the datatracker I see that the external review period began 11/3/17 wi=
th
> the -04 version of the charter and the message to new-work went out that
> day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/
>
>
> Right, I forgot, however, the external review was set for an extended
> period of time with the understanding that it could change from the
> BoF, leaving 2 additional weeks for discussion after the changes were
> made.
>
>
> My point is that external review is, in part, targeted towards reviewers
> external to the IETF (i.e., folks participating in other SDOs). This is w=
hy
> we send proposed charters to new-work. Subscribers to that list saw an
> announcement of a charter (listed as a re-charter) on 11/3, asking for
> feedback by 11/13. Nothing further was sent to that list after the change=
s
> were made on 11/15, and there=E2=80=99s no reason why external reviewers =
subscribed
> to that list would know that the charter had changed or that the external
> review period was extended.
>
> I think we need to act the way we would want other SDOs to act towards us=
.

I didn't think it was a big deal with the extended phase since the
IESG changes charters in external review regularly prior to final
publication.  The external review notification is a polite
communication and we sometimes skip that step with recharters and
often have text changes from list or IESG discussion prior to final
publication. This is the first time I've seen this called out to block
a charter progressing.  I had mentioned putting it in external review
early to dredge up external comments sooner and progress this faster
in case external entities were alerted to the BoF and to the charter
discussions.  The discussions all took place on list where there was
major text replacements.  There were other text updates that were no
accepted since there wasn't much agreement.  I haven't seen any
external responses from the review.  An email with an updated charter
should have gone out to your point, but it was posted 2 weeks prior to
the telechat.

>
>
>
> Perhaps folks disagree about whether the changes are material, but the
> charter certainly changed from -04 to -07/-08.

This was based on discussions on list and supported by polls in the
BoF.  The last set of changes were made 2 weeks in advance of the
telechat.  This was mentioned in the joint IESG/IAB meetings.

>
>
> The updates reflect consensus decisions of the BoF.  I was careful to
> make sure they were posted 2 weeks prior to this telechat.
>
>
> See above =E2=80=94 they were posted to the datatracker, but not to new-w=
ork.

Noted, but that doesn't happen with other charters under review
either.  If you want to change process and tools, this shouldn't get
held up in that discussion.  The charter changes removed major
decisions from the charter to happen within the formed WG.  That alone
should alleviate concerns you might have.  If the chairs decide
additional changes are agreed, we'll update again as is normal in a
review phase.

Regards,
Kathleen

>
> Alissa
>
>
> Regards,
> Kathleen
>
>
> Alissa
>
> The
> charter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the external
> review, then the external review was requested.  The changes from
> version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus calls during the BoF.  The
> update to 8 was an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
> was no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus calls
> in the room with the exact text being displayed and discussed.
>
> The re-charter was likely because when the page was first created,
> someone had put the charter text where charter text goes for an
> established WG.
>
>
> I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought I
> would
> check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out these
> issues.
>
>
> The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an earlier email,
> I would like to see the outcome before changing anything as I'd like
> to follow our normal process and respect the chairs roll in the
> process to assess consensus and drive the work forward.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Some lesser issues:
>
> 5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of
> existing
> discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated
> milestone(s)
> for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.
>
> 6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the background
> material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
> (preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and edited s=
o
> that
> it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to constrain w=
hat
> the group does going forward.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


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From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 15:31:50 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: suit@ietf.org
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Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
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--94eb2c14ada6360907055f278ad4
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Hello Chairs

  Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and attempting to
sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus match, i
thought will share few points for us to ponder upon.

As a follow up from BOF,

   1. minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT mailing
   list. I discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead (
   https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-100-suit)

          Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
               - Use of RFC4108

   -            - Hum on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???


   -            - Hum on if we should leave 4108

            - Should we constrain this to Class 1
          - Clarification on text revolving around transport mechanisms

   -           - Hum: Should we avoid the development of new transport
   mechanisms - Yes is louder in the room

          - Should the charter have text to talk about capabilities

   -           - Hum: Charter needs text


   -          - Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architecture

         - Should the charter restrict to one

   -         - Hum: Yes


   -        - Hum: No - Much Stronger

       - Do we need a charter text update or leave it to a discussion for
discovery

   -      - Hum: Stronger for leaving it to discussion


      - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: The architecture should
provide a way to discover the firmware server

   -      - Hum: ???


   -

        - AD says we need to put this back on the list again

As requested by the AD (last bullet point), the consensus confirming email
never made to the list.

   1. From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in
   meeting are not reflected in charter


   1. None of this has has been sent to list. Not the minutes from the
   meeting. Not the charter.


   1. People have not had time to review or comment on it


What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?

Thanks
Suhas Nandakumar

--94eb2c14ada6360907055f278ad4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hello Chairs

=C2=A0 Having spent someti=
me to browse through different lists and attempting to sharer concerns to e=
nsure that the charter text and consensus match, i thought will share few p=
oints for us to ponder upon.

As a follow up from B=
OF,
  1. minutes are not p=
ublished to the data-tracker or the SUIT mailing list. I discovered the fol=
lowing notes from the etherpad instead (https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf=
-100-suit)
=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0- Use of RFC4108
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hum=
 on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???
  • =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hum on if we should leave 4108
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Should w=
e constrain this to Class 1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 - Clarification on text revolving around transport mechanisms
  • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Hum: Should we avoid the develo=
pment of new transport mechanisms - Yes is louder in the room
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Should the charter h=
ave text to talk about capabilities
  • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 - Hum: Charter needs text
<=
ul class=3D"gmail-list-indent1" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 1.5em;padding:0=
px;list-style-type:none">
  • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architecture
    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Should the charte=
r restrict to one
      =

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Hum: Yes
    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hum: No - Much Stronger
      • <=
/ul>
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Do we need a charter text u=
pdate or leave it to a discussion for discovery
    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0- Hum: Stronger for leaving it to discussion

    =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: The architecture sh=
ould provide a way to discover the firmware server
    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0- Hum: ???

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - AD says we=
 need to put this back on the list again
    As requested by the AD (l=
ast bullet point), the consensus confirming email never made to the list.
    1. From the ab=
ove notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in meeting are not reflec=
ted in charter=C2=A0=C2=A0
    1. None of this has ha=
s been sent to list. Not the minutes from the meeting. Not the charter.
    1. People have not had time to review or comment on it=


    What should be the plan forward in addressing=
 the concerns here ?

    Thanks
    Suhas Nandak=
umar

    

--94eb2c14ada6360907055f278ad4--


From nobody Wed Nov 29 15:58:20 2017
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From: Ben Campbell 
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Subject: [Suit] Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with COMMENT)
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Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-suit-00-08: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Alissa's block position points.

I believe this work is critically important, and I hope we charter it. But it's
the day before the telechat, and there are still ongoing questions on the SUIT
list about the process and correct charter text. I suspect starting external
review prior to the BoF, then making material changes has cause confusion. I
think this would benefit from more time to work out the various elements of
confusion. It might help to defer to the next telechat.



From nobody Wed Nov 29 15:59:12 2017
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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
To: Suhas Nandakumar , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
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--_000_s7nkptckpnl1rxbia0cxm23y1511999943689emailandroidcom_
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Thank you for raising these concerns, I plan to spend time tomorrow reviewi=
ng the meetecho recording from the BoF, reviewing the recent mailing list d=
iscuaaion, the BoF notes (which I'll post), and the current charter. Once t=
he chairs have had a chance to review and discuss these materials we will c=
ome back to the list with a plan to move forward.

We want to make sure the charter reflects the consensus of the group and ad=
dresses any concerns raised by the IESG. Please give us some time to make s=
ure this happens in a productive way forward.

Thanks,
Dave

-------- Original Message --------
From: Suit  on behalf of Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:32 PM -0500
To: suit@ietf.org
Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed

Hello Chairs

  Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and attempting to=
 sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus match, i tho=
ught will share few points for us to ponder upon.

As a follow up from BOF,

  1.  minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT mailing lis=
t. I discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead (https://ethe=
rpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-100-suit=
)

          Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
               - Use of RFC4108

  *              - Hum on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???

  *              - Hum on if we should leave 4108

            - Should we constrain this to Class 1
          - Clarification on text revolving around transport mechanisms

  *             - Hum: Should we avoid the development of new transport mec=
hanisms - Yes is louder in the room

          - Should the charter have text to talk about capabilities

  *             - Hum: Charter needs text

  *            - Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architecture

         - Should the charter restrict to one

  *           - Hum: Yes

  *          - Hum: No - Much Stronger

       - Do we need a charter text update or leave it to a discussion for d=
iscovery

  *        - Hum: Stronger for leaving it to discussion

      - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: The architecture should pro=
vide a way to discover the firmware server

  *        - Hum: ???

  *

        - AD says we need to put this back on the list again

As requested by the AD (last bullet point), the consensus confirming email =
never made to the list.

  1.  From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in meeti=
ng are not reflected in charter

  1.  None of this has has been sent to list. Not the minutes from the meet=
ing. Not the charter.

  1.  People have not had time to review or comment on it

What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?

Thanks
Suhas Nandakumar


--_000_s7nkptckpnl1rxbia0cxm23y1511999943689emailandroidcom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable







Thank you for raising these concerns, I plan to spend time tomorrow reviewi=
ng the meetecho recording from the BoF, reviewing the recent mailing list d=
iscuaaion, the BoF notes (which I'll post), and the current charter. Once t=
he chairs have had a chance to review
 and discuss these materials we will come back to the list with a plan to m=
ove forward.
    

    
We want to make sure the charter reflects the consensus of the group and ad=
dresses any concerns raised by the IESG. Please give us some time to make s=
ure this happens in a productive way forward.
    

    
Thanks,
    
Dave
    

    
-------- Original Message --------
    
From: Suit <suit-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Suhas Nandakumar <=
suhasietf@gmail.com>
    
Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:32 PM -0500
    
To: suit@ietf.org
    
Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
    

    

    

    Hello Chairs


    

    

      Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and att=
empting to sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus ma=
tch, i thought will share few points for us to ponder upon.
    


    

    

    As a follow up from BOF,
    

    

    

    

      

    1. minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT ma=
iling list. I discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead (https://etherpad.tool=
s.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-100-suit)
    

          &nb=
sp;   Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
    

    
  =
             - Use of RFC4108

    

      

    •            - Hu=
m on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???
    

    

    

      

    •            - Hu=
m on if we should leave 4108
    

    

    
  =
          - Should we constrain this to Class 1
    

    
  =
        - Clarification on text revolving around transp=
ort mechanisms
    

    

      

    •           - Hum: Sho=
uld we avoid the development of new transport mechanisms - Yes
 is louder in the room
    

    

    
  =
        - Should the charter have text to talk about ca=
pabilities
    

    

      

    •           - Hum: Cha=
rter needs text
    

    

    

      

    •          - Hum: Leav=
e out of charter, but add to architecture
    

    

    
  =
       - Should the charter restrict to one

    

      

    •         - Hum: Yes=

    

    

    

      

    •        - Hum: No - Much S=
tronger
    

    

    
  =
     - Do we need a charter text update or leave it to a dis=
cussion for discovery
    

    

      

    •      - Hum: Stronger for leavi=
ng it to discussion
    

    

    

    

    

    
  =
    - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: The architecture sh=
ould provide a way to discover the firmware server
    

    

      

    •      - Hum: ???
      • 

    

    

      


    • 

    

    

    
  =
      - AD says we need to put this back on the list again
    

    

    

    

    As requested by the AD (last bul=
let point), the consensus confirming email never
 made to the list.
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus=
 in meeting are not reflected in charter  
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. None of this has has been sent to list. Not the minutes from=
 the meeting. Not the charter.
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. People have not had time to review or comment on it
      2. 


      

      

      What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?


      

      

      Thanks
      

      Suhas Nandakumar
      


      

      

      

    

    

    

    



--_000_s7nkptckpnl1rxbia0cxm23y1511999943689emailandroidcom_--


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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
To: Ben Campbell , The IESG 
CC: "suit-chairs@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with COMMENT)
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I just sent an email to the list suggesting that the chairs need to huddle =
to organize a way forward to resolve the confusion and drive discussion of =
the charter to a conclusion. We will need to defer the telechat for now as =
you and Alissa have suggested. We will work with Kathleen to set a new tele=
chat date one we resolve the current issues.

Thanks,
Dave


-------- Original Message --------
From: Ben Campbell 
Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:58 PM -0500
To: The IESG 
CC: suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
Subject: Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with COMM=
ENT)

Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-suit-00-08: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatrac=
ker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire=
%40nist.gov%7C17e03c990cca4888fff408d537851103%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655=
c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636475967026699331&sdata=3DntK1mo%2BVxvKr9bzv%2BuGJAtyWB6R=
8%2FaOQXC7WCbO6iPs%3D&reserved=3D0



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I support Alissa's block position points.

I believe this work is critically important, and I hope we charter it. But =
it's
the day before the telechat, and there are still ongoing questions on the S=
UIT
list about the process and correct charter text. I suspect starting externa=
l
review prior to the BoF, then making material changes has cause confusion. =
I
think this would benefit from more time to work out the various elements of
confusion. It might help to defer to the next telechat.



--_000_7cvbal5uxtcrgi98cyespa691512000812603emailandroidcom_
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    I just sent an email to the list suggesting =
that the chairs need to huddle to organize a way forward to resolve the con=
fusion and drive discussion of the charter to a conclusion. We will need to=
 defer the telechat for now as you
 and Alissa have suggested. We will work with Kathleen to set a new telecha=
t date one we resolve the current issues.
    


    

    

    Thanks,
    

    Dave
    

    

    
-------- Original Message --------
    
From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
    
Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:58 PM -0500
    
To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
    
CC: suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
    
Subject: Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with COMM=
ENT)
    

    

    


    Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot posi=
tion for
    
charter-ietf-suit-00-08: No Objection
    

    
When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
    
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
    
introductory paragraph, however.)
    

    

    

    
The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
    
https://na01.saf=
elinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fd=
oc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%=
7C17e03c990cca4888fff408d537851103%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7=
C0%7C636475967026699331&sdata=3DntK1mo%2BVxvKr9bzv%2BuGJAtyWB6R8%2FaOQX=
C7WCbO6iPs%3D&reserved=3D0
    

    

    

    
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
COMMENT:
    
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    

    
I support Alissa's block position points.
    

    
I believe this work is critically important, and I hope we charter it. But =
it's
    
the day before the telechat, and there are still ongoing questions on the S=
UIT
    
list about the process and correct charter text. I suspect starting externa=
l
    
review prior to the BoF, then making material changes has cause confusion. =
I
    
think this would benefit from more time to work out the various elements of=

    
confusion. It might help to defer to the next telechat.
    

    

    

    
    



--_000_7cvbal5uxtcrgi98cyespa691512000812603emailandroidcom_--


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Cc: The IESG , "suit-chairs@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" 
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with COMMENT)
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Hi Dave,

I think that=E2=80=99s the right approach. Again, I think this is =
critically important work, but that just makes it even more important to =
get the charter details right.

Thanks!

Ben.

> On Nov 29, 2017, at 6:13 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) =
 wrote:
>=20
> I just sent an email to the list suggesting that the chairs need to =
huddle to organize a way forward to resolve the confusion and drive =
discussion of the charter to a conclusion. We will need to defer the =
telechat for now as you and Alissa have suggested. We will work with =
Kathleen to set a new telechat date one we resolve the current issues.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Dave
>=20
>=20
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Ben Campbell 
> Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:58 PM -0500
> To: The IESG 
> CC: suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with =
COMMENT)
>=20
> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-suit-00-08: No Objection
>=20
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> =
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra=
cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermi=
re%40nist.gov%7C17e03c990cca4888fff408d537851103%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054=
655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636475967026699331&sdata=3DntK1mo%2BVxvKr9bzv%2BuGJAty=
WB6R8%2FaOQXC7WCbO6iPs%3D&reserved=3D0
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> I support Alissa's block position points.
>=20
> I believe this work is critically important, and I hope we charter it. =
But it's
> the day before the telechat, and there are still ongoing questions on =
the SUIT
> list about the process and correct charter text. I suspect starting =
external
> review prior to the BoF, then making material changes has cause =
confusion. I
> think this would benefit from more time to work out the various =
elements of
> confusion. It might help to defer to the next telechat.


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In-Reply-To: 
References:  
From: Suhas Nandakumar 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 16:53:38 -0800
Message-ID: 
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
Cc: "suit@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c14ada6bb7a6c055f28ae6c"
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
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Thanks Dave for the response and considering the concerns.

Also i was wondering, would it makes sense to have the charter on the
github, so people can comment and generate pull requests if needed

Thanks
Suhas

On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <
david.waltermire@nist.gov> wrote:

> Thank you for raising these concerns, I plan to spend time tomorrow
> reviewing the meetecho recording from the BoF, reviewing the recent maili=
ng
> list discuaaion, the BoF notes (which I'll post), and the current charter=
.
> Once the chairs have had a chance to review and discuss these materials w=
e
> will come back to the list with a plan to move forward.
>
> We want to make sure the charter reflects the consensus of the group and
> addresses any concerns raised by the IESG. Please give us some time to ma=
ke
> sure this happens in a productive way forward.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Suit  on behalf of Suhas Nandakumar <
> suhasietf@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:32 PM -0500
> To: suit@ietf.org
> Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
>
> Hello Chairs
>
>   Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and attempting
> to sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus match, i
> thought will share few points for us to ponder upon.
>
> As a follow up from BOF,
>
>    1. minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT mailing
>    list. I discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead (
>    https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-100-suit
>    
>    )
>
>           Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
>                - Use of RFC4108
>
>    -            - Hum on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???
>
>
>    -            - Hum on if we should leave 4108
>
>             - Should we constrain this to Class 1
>           - Clarification on text revolving around transport mechanisms
>
>    -           - Hum: Should we avoid the development of new transport
>    mechanisms - Yes is louder in the room
>
>           - Should the charter have text to talk about capabilities
>
>    -           - Hum: Charter needs text
>
>
>    -          - Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architecture
>
>          - Should the charter restrict to one
>
>    -         - Hum: Yes
>
>
>    -        - Hum: No - Much Stronger
>
>        - Do we need a charter text update or leave it to a discussion for
> discovery
>
>    -      - Hum: Stronger for leaving it to discussion
>
>
>       - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: The architecture should
> provide a way to discover the firmware server
>
>    -      - Hum: ???
>
>
>    -
>
>         - AD says we need to put this back on the list again
>
> As requested by the AD (last bullet point), the consensus confirming emai=
l
> never made to the list.
>
>    1. From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in
>    meeting are not reflected in charter
>
>
>    1. None of this has has been sent to list. Not the minutes from the
>    meeting. Not the charter.
>
>
>    1. People have not had time to review or comment on it
>
>
> What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?
>
> Thanks
> Suhas Nandakumar
>
>

--94eb2c14ada6bb7a6c055f28ae6c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    Thanks Dave for the response and considering the concerns.=
=C2=A0

    Also i was wondering, would it makes sense to hav=
e the charter on the github, so people can comment and generate pull reques=
ts if needed

    Thanks
    Suhas

    On Wed, Nov 29, 2017=
 at 3:59 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <david.waltermire@nist.gov=
> wrote:
    





    
Thank you for raising these concerns, I plan to spend time tomorrow reviewi=
ng the meetecho recording from the BoF, reviewing the recent mailing list d=
iscuaaion, the BoF notes (which I'll post), and the current charter. On=
ce the chairs have had a chance to review
 and discuss these materials we will come back to the list with a plan to m=
ove forward.
    

    
We want to make sure the charter reflects the consensus of the group and ad=
dresses any concerns raised by the IESG. Please give us some time to make s=
ure this happens in a productive way forward.
    

    
Thanks,
    
Dave

    

    
-------- Original Message --------
    
From: Suit <s=
uit-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:32 PM -0500
    
To: suit@ietf.org
Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
    

    

    

    Hello Chairs


    

    

    =C2=A0 Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and att=
empting to sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus ma=
tch, i thought will share few points for us to ponder upon.
    


    

    

    As a follow up from BOF,
    

    

    

    

      

    1. minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT mailing list.=
 I discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead (https://etherp=
ad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-100-suit)
    

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Use of =
RFC4108
    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hum on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???
    

    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hum on if we should leave 4108
    

    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Should we constrain =
this to Class 1
    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Clarification on text revol=
ving around transport mechanisms
    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 - Hum: Should we avoid the development of new transport mechanisms =
- Yes
 is louder in the room
    

    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Should the charter have tex=
t to talk about capabilities
    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 - Hum: Charter needs text
    

    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0- Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architecture
      • 

    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Should the charter restrict =
to one
    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 - Hum: Yes
    

    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
- Hum: No - Much Stronger
    

    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Do we need a charter text update or=
 leave it to a discussion for discovery
    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hum: =
Stronger for leaving it to discussion
    

    

    

    

    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: T=
he architecture should provide a way to discover the firmware server=

    

    

      

    • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Hum: =
???
    

    

    

      


    • 

    

    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - AD says we need to put this back o=
n the list again
    

    

    

    

    As requested by the AD (last bullet point), the consensus confirmi=
ng email never
 made to the list.
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in meeting=
 are not reflected in charter=C2=A0=C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. None of this has has been sent to list. Not the minutes from the meetin=
g. Not the charter.
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. People have not had time to review or comment on it
    


    

    

    What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?


    

    

    Thanks
    

    Suhas Nandakumar
    


    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    



    

--94eb2c14ada6bb7a6c055f28ae6c--


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:38:28 -0500
Cc: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" , "suit-chairs@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" , IESG 
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References: <151199989848.4805.16847403443008510445.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7cvbal5uxtcrgi98cyespa69.1512000812603@email.android.com> 
To: Ben Campbell 
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124)
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with COMMENT)
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> On Nov 29, 2017, at 7:37 PM, Ben Campbell  wrote:
>=20
> Hi Dave,
>=20
> I think that=E2=80=99s the right approach. Again, I think this is =
critically important work, but that just makes it even more important to =
get the charter details right.

+1

Thanks,
Alissa

>=20
> Thanks!
>=20
> Ben.
>=20
>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 6:13 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> I just sent an email to the list suggesting that the chairs need to =
huddle to organize a way forward to resolve the confusion and drive =
discussion of the charter to a conclusion. We will need to defer the =
telechat for now as you and Alissa have suggested. We will work with =
Kathleen to set a new telechat date one we resolve the current issues.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Dave
>>=20
>>=20
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> From: Ben Campbell 
>> Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:58 PM -0500
>> To: The IESG 
>> CC: suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
>> Subject: Ben Campbell's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: =
(with COMMENT)
>>=20
>> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
>> charter-ietf-suit-00-08: No Objection
>>=20
>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut =
this
>> introductory paragraph, however.)
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
>> =
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatra=
cker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-suit%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermi=
re%40nist.gov%7C17e03c990cca4888fff408d537851103%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054=
655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636475967026699331&sdata=3DntK1mo%2BVxvKr9bzv%2BuGJAty=
WB6R8%2FaOQXC7WCbO6iPs%3D&reserved=3D0
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> I support Alissa's block position points.
>>=20
>> I believe this work is critically important, and I hope we charter =
it. But it's
>> the day before the telechat, and there are still ongoing questions on =
the SUIT
>> list about the process and correct charter text. I suspect starting =
external
>> review prior to the BoF, then making material changes has cause =
confusion. I
>> think this would benefit from more time to work out the various =
elements of
>> confusion. It might help to defer to the next telechat.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit


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From: Alissa Cooper 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:51:43 -0500
Cc: IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
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To: Kathleen Moriarty 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Since the IESG evaluation of this will be delayed, I think it would be =
beneficial to circulate an updated charter notification to new-work.

I think what is unusual here is running the external review process in =
parallel with the BoF process, rather than running the BoF first. I =
can=E2=80=99t recall another working group that has followed that path =
in recent memory.

Alissa


> On Nov 29, 2017, at 4:07 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
 wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Alissa Cooper  =
wrote:
>>=20
>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alissa Cooper  =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>>  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> 4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle =
of the
>> external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing =
list.
>> There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work =
that
>> could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it =
to be
>> re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important =
part of
>> external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The charter did NOT change during the external review period.
>>=20
>>=20
>> In the datatracker I see that the external review period began =
11/3/17 with
>> the -04 version of the charter and the message to new-work went out =
that
>> day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/
>>=20
>>=20
>> Right, I forgot, however, the external review was set for an extended
>> period of time with the understanding that it could change from the
>> BoF, leaving 2 additional weeks for discussion after the changes were
>> made.
>>=20
>>=20
>> My point is that external review is, in part, targeted towards =
reviewers
>> external to the IETF (i.e., folks participating in other SDOs). This =
is why
>> we send proposed charters to new-work. Subscribers to that list saw =
an
>> announcement of a charter (listed as a re-charter) on 11/3, asking =
for
>> feedback by 11/13. Nothing further was sent to that list after the =
changes
>> were made on 11/15, and there=E2=80=99s no reason why external =
reviewers subscribed
>> to that list would know that the charter had changed or that the =
external
>> review period was extended.
>>=20
>> I think we need to act the way we would want other SDOs to act =
towards us.
>=20
> I didn't think it was a big deal with the extended phase since the
> IESG changes charters in external review regularly prior to final
> publication.  The external review notification is a polite
> communication and we sometimes skip that step with recharters and
> often have text changes from list or IESG discussion prior to final
> publication. This is the first time I've seen this called out to block
> a charter progressing.  I had mentioned putting it in external review
> early to dredge up external comments sooner and progress this faster
> in case external entities were alerted to the BoF and to the charter
> discussions.  The discussions all took place on list where there was
> major text replacements.  There were other text updates that were no
> accepted since there wasn't much agreement.  I haven't seen any
> external responses from the review.  An email with an updated charter
> should have gone out to your point, but it was posted 2 weeks prior to
> the telechat.
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Perhaps folks disagree about whether the changes are material, but =
the
>> charter certainly changed from -04 to -07/-08.
>=20
> This was based on discussions on list and supported by polls in the
> BoF.  The last set of changes were made 2 weeks in advance of the
> telechat.  This was mentioned in the joint IESG/IAB meetings.
>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The updates reflect consensus decisions of the BoF.  I was careful to
>> make sure they were posted 2 weeks prior to this telechat.
>>=20
>>=20
>> See above =E2=80=94 they were posted to the datatracker, but not to =
new-work.
>=20
> Noted, but that doesn't happen with other charters under review
> either.  If you want to change process and tools, this shouldn't get
> held up in that discussion.  The charter changes removed major
> decisions from the charter to happen within the formed WG.  That alone
> should alleviate concerns you might have.  If the chairs decide
> additional changes are agreed, we'll update again as is normal in a
> review phase.
>=20
> Regards,
> Kathleen
>=20
>>=20
>> Alissa
>>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Kathleen
>>=20
>>=20
>> Alissa
>>=20
>> The
>> charter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the external
>> review, then the external review was requested.  The changes from
>> version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus calls during the BoF.  The
>> update to 8 was an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
>> was no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus =
calls
>> in the room with the exact text being displayed and discussed.
>>=20
>> The re-charter was likely because when the page was first created,
>> someone had put the charter text where charter text goes for an
>> established WG.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought =
I
>> would
>> check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out =
these
>> issues.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an earlier email,
>> I would like to see the outcome before changing anything as I'd like
>> to follow our normal process and respect the chairs roll in the
>> process to assess consensus and drive the work forward.
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> COMMENT:
>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> Some lesser issues:
>>=20
>> 5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of
>> existing
>> discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated
>> milestone(s)
>> for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.
>>=20
>> 6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the =
background
>> material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
>> (preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and =
edited so
>> that
>> it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to =
constrain what
>> the group does going forward.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen


From nobody Wed Nov 29 18:54:44 2017
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References: <151198331193.7984.4323886922842709646.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>  <2063B475-1451-42F2-A627-B34A574B6A78@cooperw.in>  <6B113166-9C17-42B3-905C-539CAE3AED7A@cooperw.in>  <3F743DF0-FC58-49CF-8552-D04B0722C018@cooperw.in>
From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:53:55 -0500
Message-ID: 
To: Alissa Cooper 
Cc: IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 9:51 PM, Alissa Cooper  wrote:
> Since the IESG evaluation of this will be delayed, I think it would be be=
neficial to circulate an updated charter notification to new-work.
>
> I think what is unusual here is running the external review process in pa=
rallel with the BoF process, rather than running the BoF first. I can=E2=80=
=99t recall another working group that has followed that path in recent mem=
ory.

Sure, I thought it would be helpful to get the discussion all at once
rather than the external review possibly revisiting discussion points
that had been made.  The external review was set for a longer than
normal time period as well.  Since this work is bringing in new people
to the IETF and possibly interest from other SDOs, I thought this
would be helpful to further the work in a positive and collaborative
way.

Kathleen

>
> Alissa
>
>
>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 4:07 PM, Kathleen Moriarty  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:51 PM, Alissa Cooper  wrote=
:
>>>
>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Alissa Cooper  wrot=
e:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 29, 2017, at 2:32 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
>>>  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> 4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle of =
the
>>> external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing l=
ist.
>>> There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work t=
hat
>>> could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it t=
o be
>>> re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important par=
t of
>>> external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.
>>>
>>>
>>> The charter did NOT change during the external review period.
>>>
>>>
>>> In the datatracker I see that the external review period began 11/3/17 =
with
>>> the -04 version of the charter and the message to new-work went out tha=
t
>>> day. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/history/
>>>
>>>
>>> Right, I forgot, however, the external review was set for an extended
>>> period of time with the understanding that it could change from the
>>> BoF, leaving 2 additional weeks for discussion after the changes were
>>> made.
>>>
>>>
>>> My point is that external review is, in part, targeted towards reviewer=
s
>>> external to the IETF (i.e., folks participating in other SDOs). This is=
 why
>>> we send proposed charters to new-work. Subscribers to that list saw an
>>> announcement of a charter (listed as a re-charter) on 11/3, asking for
>>> feedback by 11/13. Nothing further was sent to that list after the chan=
ges
>>> were made on 11/15, and there=E2=80=99s no reason why external reviewer=
s subscribed
>>> to that list would know that the charter had changed or that the extern=
al
>>> review period was extended.
>>>
>>> I think we need to act the way we would want other SDOs to act towards =
us.
>>
>> I didn't think it was a big deal with the extended phase since the
>> IESG changes charters in external review regularly prior to final
>> publication.  The external review notification is a polite
>> communication and we sometimes skip that step with recharters and
>> often have text changes from list or IESG discussion prior to final
>> publication. This is the first time I've seen this called out to block
>> a charter progressing.  I had mentioned putting it in external review
>> early to dredge up external comments sooner and progress this faster
>> in case external entities were alerted to the BoF and to the charter
>> discussions.  The discussions all took place on list where there was
>> major text replacements.  There were other text updates that were no
>> accepted since there wasn't much agreement.  I haven't seen any
>> external responses from the review.  An email with an updated charter
>> should have gone out to your point, but it was posted 2 weeks prior to
>> the telechat.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps folks disagree about whether the changes are material, but the
>>> charter certainly changed from -04 to -07/-08.
>>
>> This was based on discussions on list and supported by polls in the
>> BoF.  The last set of changes were made 2 weeks in advance of the
>> telechat.  This was mentioned in the joint IESG/IAB meetings.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The updates reflect consensus decisions of the BoF.  I was careful to
>>> make sure they were posted 2 weeks prior to this telechat.
>>>
>>>
>>> See above =E2=80=94 they were posted to the datatracker, but not to new=
-work.
>>
>> Noted, but that doesn't happen with other charters under review
>> either.  If you want to change process and tools, this shouldn't get
>> held up in that discussion.  The charter changes removed major
>> decisions from the charter to happen within the formed WG.  That alone
>> should alleviate concerns you might have.  If the chairs decide
>> additional changes are agreed, we'll update again as is normal in a
>> review phase.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Kathleen
>>
>>>
>>> Alissa
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>>
>>> Alissa
>>>
>>> The
>>> charter was updated to version 7 prior to the start of the external
>>> review, then the external review was requested.  The changes from
>>> version 6 to 7 were a result of consensus calls during the BoF.  The
>>> update to 8 was an attempt to fix a formatting issue, but the result
>>> was no change. The BoF chairs were very clear with the consensus calls
>>> in the room with the exact text being displayed and discussed.
>>>
>>> The re-charter was likely because when the page was first created,
>>> someone had put the charter text where charter text goes for an
>>> established WG.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought I
>>> would
>>> check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out the=
se
>>> issues.
>>>
>>>
>>> The chairs will be responding on list and I said in an earlier email,
>>> I would like to see the outcome before changing anything as I'd like
>>> to follow our normal process and respect the chairs roll in the
>>> process to assess consensus and drive the work forward.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> COMMENT:
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Some lesser issues:
>>>
>>> 5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of
>>> existing
>>> discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated
>>> milestone(s)
>>> for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.
>>>
>>> 6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the background
>>> material about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed
>>> (preferably), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and edited=
 so
>>> that
>>> it's clear that it's there for background purposes and not to constrain=
 what
>>> the group does going forward.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kathleen
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


From nobody Thu Nov 30 01:21:32 2017
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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Alissa Cooper , The IESG 
CC: "suit-chairs@ietf.org" , "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org
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My 5 cents.

Since the chartering work on this effort took so long there are obviously d=
iscussions ongoing already on the list that should actually better be done =
in a working group rather than on the charter itself.

I understand that you all want to have this charter to be as precise as pos=
sible. But, based on earlier discussions, we wanted to postpone some decisi=
ons to a later phase when those have been investigated in the group. For th=
is reason I believe it is not possible to say how many formats we want to s=
tandardize other than stating the intention that the number ideally be smal=
l. The same is true for the actual data model/serialization format. Needles=
s to say that different formats have different properties and offer more or=
 less flexibility regarding the serialization format. Everyone seems to hav=
e a different preference for a format and the serialization. This is quite =
natural given that we are engineers and that's pretty much the only things =
we care about in life (besides the name of the group, of course).

Maybe we can, at this point in time, just say that the group will decide on=
 the format. I am sure it is not the first time in the IETF history that th=
ere have been disagreements about formats. I am convinced that the IESG is =
actually very experienced in finding the most diplomatic wording for such a=
 situation.

Since charters can be updated later I prefer to have the group figure out t=
he technical pieces and that they are not captured in the charter yet. This=
 should also remove the chicken-and-egg situation.

Ciao
Hannes

-----Original Message-----
From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alissa Cooper
Sent: 29 November 2017 20:22
To: The IESG
Cc: suit-chairs@ietf.org; suit@ietf.org
Subject: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLO=
CK and COMMENT)

Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-suit-00-08: Block

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email=
 addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introduc=
tory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

>From reading the mailing list and doing my own review, there seem to be
>a bunch
of open issues with this charter that would benefit from further discussion=
 by interested participants before the WG gets chartered. Some of these mig=
ht just be the result of lack of precision in the language used, but I thin=
k that is actually pretty important for clarity in a WG charter. The issues=
 are:

1. On the list there seems to be disagreement about the interpretation of t=
his
text: "A lower number of formats is preferred to reduce code size for suppo=
rting decoders on devices receiving a manifest and to maximize interoperabi=
lity of solutions." I also find myself confused by this (lower than what? i=
s there some upper bound?).

2. Michael Richardson raised some good question about this text that seem l=
ike they warrant clarification, or at least a consensus call: "Software upd=
ate solutions that target updating software other than the firmware binarie=
s are also out of scope."

3. The milestones seem to use the term "Manifest format" to refer to someth=
ing that the charter calls "the contents of a mainfest" (I think), in contr=
ast to the multiple "formats" discussed in the charter. Given that there ha=
s also been discussion on the list about format vs. serialization and the a=
bsence of a data model specification, I think the charter and milestones wo=
uld benefit from being crystal clear about what deliverables the WG is expe=
cted to produce and should use the same language throughout to name those d=
eliverables.

4. This charter changed in some pretty important ways in the middle of the =
external review period, but was never re-sent to the new-work mailing list.
There was also an error in the original announcement sent to new-work that =
could cause confusion (it said this was a re-charter). I asked for it to be=
 re-sent but it doesn't look like it was. Since this is an important part o=
f external review, I really don't think this step should be skipped.

I'm willing to move to ABSTAIN if no one agrees with me but I thought I wou=
ld check to see if folks would be willing to take the time to sort out thes=
e issues.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Some lesser issues:

5. The charter now talks about how the group may describe the use of existi=
ng discovery and transport mechanisms, but there are not associated milesto=
ne(s) for this work. Not sure if this is intentional or an oversight.

6. I agree with the folks on the list who have said that the background mat=
erial about the IAB workshop and RFC 4108 should either be removed (prefera=
bly), or shifted around to the beginning of the text and edited so that it'=
s clear that it's there for background purposes and not to constrain what t=
he group does going forward.


_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.


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From: Hannes Tschofenig 
To: Suhas Nandakumar , "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Github? RE: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
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To: , Suhas Nandakumar , "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" 
CC: "suit@ietf.org" 
From: Henk Birkholz 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
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A happy, wholehearted, +1 with 100% support=2E

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On November 30, 2017 1:53:38 AM GMT+01:00, Suhas Nandakumar  wrote:
>Thanks Dave for the response and considering the concerns=2E
>
>Also i was wondering, would it makes sense to have the charter on the
>github, so people can comment and generate pull requests if needed
>
>Thanks
>Suhas
>
>On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Waltermire, David A=2E (Fed) <
>david=2Ewaltermire@nist=2Egov> wrote:
>
>> Thank you for raising these concerns, I plan to spend time tomorrow
>> reviewing the meetecho recording from the BoF, reviewing the recent
>mailing
>> list discuaaion, the BoF notes (which I'll post), and the current
>charter=2E
>> Once the chairs have had a chance to review and discuss these
>materials we
>> will come back to the list with a plan to move forward=2E
>>
>> We want to make sure the charter reflects the consensus of the group
>and
>> addresses any concerns raised by the IESG=2E Please give us some time
>to make
>> sure this happens in a productive way forward=2E
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> From: Suit  on behalf of Suhas Nandakumar <
>> suhasietf@gmail=2Ecom>
>> Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:32 PM -0500
>> To: suit@ietf=2Eorg
>> Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
>>
>> Hello Chairs
>>
>>   Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and
>attempting
>> to sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus
>match, i
>> thought will share few points for us to ponder upon=2E
>>
>> As a follow up from BOF,
>>
>>    1=2E minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT
>mailing
>>    list=2E I discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead (
>>    https://etherpad=2Etools=2Eietf=2Eorg/p/notes-ietf-100-suit
>>  =20
>
>>    )
>>
>>           Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
>>                - Use of RFC4108
>>
>>    -            - Hum on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???
>>
>>
>>    -            - Hum on if we should leave 4108
>>
>>             - Should we constrain this to Class 1
>>           - Clarification on text revolving around transport
>mechanisms
>>
>>    -           - Hum: Should we avoid the development of new
>transport
>>    mechanisms - Yes is louder in the room
>>
>>           - Should the charter have text to talk about capabilities
>>
>>    -           - Hum: Charter needs text
>>
>>
>>    -          - Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architecture
>>
>>          - Should the charter restrict to one
>>
>>    -         - Hum: Yes
>>
>>
>>    -        - Hum: No - Much Stronger
>>
>>        - Do we need a charter text update or leave it to a discussion
>for
>> discovery
>>
>>    -      - Hum: Stronger for leaving it to discussion
>>
>>
>>       - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: The architecture
>should
>> provide a way to discover the firmware server
>>
>>    -      - Hum: ???
>>
>>
>>    -
>>
>>         - AD says we need to put this back on the list again
>>
>> As requested by the AD (last bullet point), the consensus confirming
>email
>> never made to the list=2E
>>
>>    1=2E From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in
>>    meeting are not reflected in charter
>>
>>
>>    1=2E None of this has has been sent to list=2E Not the minutes from
>the
>>    meeting=2E Not the charter=2E
>>
>>
>>    1=2E People have not had time to review or comment on it
>>
>>
>> What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Suhas Nandakumar
>>
>>

--=20
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------MV770T7Z73CGCX1PPT1ZSFC986KIWE
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A happy, wholehearted, +1 with 100% support=2E
    

    
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
    

    
Henk

    On November 30, 2017 1:53:38 AM GMT=
+01:00, Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail=2Ecom> wrote:
    

    Thanks Dave for the response and considering the concerns=
=2E 

    Also i was wondering, would it makes sense t=
o have the charter on the github, so people can comment and generate pull r=
equests if needed

    Thanks
    Suhas

    On Wed, Nov=
 29, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Waltermire, David A=2E (Fed) <david=2Ewa=
ltermire@nist=2Egov> wrote:
    





    
Thank you for raising these concerns, I plan to spend time tomorrow review=
ing the meetecho recording from the BoF, reviewing the recent mailing list =
discuaaion, the BoF notes (which I'll post), and the current charter=2E Onc=
e the chairs have had a chance to review
 and discuss these materials we will come back to the list with a plan to =
move forward=2E
    

    
We want to make sure the charter reflects the consensus of the group and a=
ddresses any concerns raised by the IESG=2E Please give us some time to mak=
e sure this happens in a productive way forward=2E
    

    
Thanks,
    
Dave

    

    
-------- Original Message --------
    
From: Suit <suit-bounces@ietf=2Eorg> on behalf of Suhas Nandakumar <suhasietf@gmail=2Ecom>
    
Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:32 PM -0500
    
To:     suit@ietf=2Eorg
    
Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
    

    

    

    Hello Chairs


    

    

      Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and at=
tempting to sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus m=
atch, i thought will share few points for us to ponder upon=2E
    


    

    

    As a follow up from BOF,
    

    

    

    

      

    1. minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT mailing list=
=2E I discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead (https://etherpad=2Etools=2Eietf=2Eorg/p/notes-ietf-100-suit)
    

          &nb=
sp;   Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
    

    
               - Use of=
 RFC4108
    

    

      

    •        =
;    - Hum on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???
    

    

    

      

    •        =
;    - Hum on if we should leave 4108
    

    

    
            - Should we constrain=
 this to Class 1
    

    
          - Clarification on text revo=
lving around transport mechanisms
    

    

      

    •        =
;   - Hum: Should we avoid the development of new transport mechanisms=
 - Yes
 is louder in the room
    

    

    
          - Should the charter have te=
xt to talk about capabilities
    

    

      

    •        =
;   - Hum: Charter needs text
    

    

    

      

    •        =
;  - Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architecture
      • 

    

    
         - Should the charter restrict=
 to one
    

    

      

    •        =
; - Hum: Yes
    

    

    

      

    •        =
;- Hum: No - Much Stronger
    

    

    
       - Do we need a charter text update o=
r leave it to a discussion for discovery
    

    

      

    •      - Hum:=
 Stronger for leaving it to discussion
    

    

    

    

    

    
      - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: =
The architecture should provide a way to discover the firmware server
    

    

      

    •      - Hum:=
 ???
    

    

    

      


    • 

    

    

    
        - AD says we need to put this back =
on the list again
    

    

    

    

    As requested by the AD (last bullet point), the consensus confirm=
ing email never
 made to the list=2E
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in meetin=
g are not reflected in charter  
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. None of this has has been sent to list=2E Not the minutes from the mee=
ting=2E Not the charter=2E
    

    

    

    

    

    

    

      

    1. People have not had time to review or comment on it
    


    

    

    What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?


    

    

    Thanks
    

    Suhas Nandakumar
    


    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    



    


    
-- 
    
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------MV770T7Z73CGCX1PPT1ZSFC986KIWE--


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From: Kathleen Moriarty 
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 09:39:01 -0500
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To: Hannes Tschofenig 
Cc: Suhas Nandakumar ,  "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" , "suit@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Github? RE: Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
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Hello all,

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:55 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
 wrote:
> Hi Suhas,
>
>
>
> Sometimes tools are not the solution to the problem. The IESG should make
> these small clarifications needed to get the charter finalized.


I agree that tools are not the answer here.  The chairs will be
following up on list to the discussions over the past few days.  The
updated text will be discussed and moved to a future telechat (very
soon, likely in 2 weeks) for review.  As the sponsoring AD, I will
continue to follow the discussions and ensure points have been
considered.  The charter has changed mostly to move decisions out of
the charter and to the WG, so I think we'll be able to wrap this up
soon and get started on the work.

Thank you,
Kathleen

>
>
>
> Ciao
>
> Hannes
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Suhas Nandakumar
> Sent: 30 November 2017 01:54
> To: Waltermire, David A. (Fed)
> Cc: suit@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
>
>
>
> Thanks Dave for the response and considering the concerns.
>
>
>
> Also i was wondering, would it makes sense to have the charter on the
> github, so people can comment and generate pull requests if needed
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Suhas
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed)
>  wrote:
>
> Thank you for raising these concerns, I plan to spend time tomorrow
> reviewing the meetecho recording from the BoF, reviewing the recent maili=
ng
> list discuaaion, the BoF notes (which I'll post), and the current charter=
.
> Once the chairs have had a chance to review and discuss these materials w=
e
> will come back to the list with a plan to move forward.
>
> We want to make sure the charter reflects the consensus of the group and
> addresses any concerns raised by the IESG. Please give us some time to ma=
ke
> sure this happens in a productive way forward.
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Suit  on behalf of Suhas Nandakumar
> 
> Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:32 PM -0500
> To: suit@ietf.org
> Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
>
> Hello Chairs
>
>
>
>   Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and attempting =
to
> sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus match, i
> thought will share few points for us to ponder upon.
>
>
>
> As a follow up from BOF,
>
> minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT mailing list. I
> discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead
> (https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-100-suit)
>
>           Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
>
>                - Use of RFC4108
>
> =C2=B7                  - Hum on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum?=
??
>
> =C2=B7                  - Hum on if we should leave 4108
>
>             - Should we constrain this to Class 1
>
>           - Clarification on text revolving around transport mechanisms
>
> =C2=B7                 - Hum: Should we avoid the development of new tran=
sport
> mechanisms - Yes is louder in the room
>
>           - Should the charter have text to talk about capabilities
>
> =C2=B7                 - Hum: Charter needs text
>
> =C2=B7                - Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architectur=
e
>
>          - Should the charter restrict to one
>
> =C2=B7               - Hum: Yes
>
> =C2=B7              - Hum: No - Much Stronger
>
>        - Do we need a charter text update or leave it to a discussion for
> discovery
>
> =C2=B7            - Hum: Stronger for leaving it to discussion
>
>
>
>       - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: The architecture should
> provide a way to discover the firmware server
>
> =C2=B7            - Hum: ???
>
> =C2=B7
>
>         - AD says we need to put this back on the list again
>
>
>
> As requested by the AD (last bullet point), the consensus confirming emai=
l
> never made to the list.
>
> From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in meeting a=
re
> not reflected in charter
>
> None of this has has been sent to list. Not the minutes from the meeting.
> Not the charter.
>
> People have not had time to review or comment on it
>
>
>
> What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Suhas Nandakumar
>
>
>
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Suit mailing list
> Suit@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen


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To: 
References:  
From: Henk Birkholz 
Message-ID: <89a707e4-8f3a-2a28-8dd3-16f539c9af05@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 16:16:16 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Github? RE: Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
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Hello all,

if the visibility problem of current state/version of charter and its 
review, open AI that require call for consensus on the list, and update 
proposals to the charter can be improved as is, I would agree that this 
is not a "tool question".

I would like to highlight an example I kept tracking:

On 11/23/2017 11:22 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> If the BOF chairs feel that the RFC 4108 reference upsets readers too much then I will not fight for it.

This seemed to be one of the hot topics. There were suggestions on the 
lists including ballot positions and to quote Dave on removing RFC 4108 
content from charter:

On 11/29/2017 08:29 PM, Dave Thaler wrote:
> The consensus at the BoF was, from my recollection anyway, indeed to do so for RFC 4108.

Alas, it still feels like this is an open topic still. And I think 
Hannes saw that one coming:

On 11/23/2017 11:48 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
> Let us finish the charter and start the real work.

And I am totally with him :)


Viele Grüße,

Henk



On 11/30/2017 03:39 PM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 4:55 AM, Hannes Tschofenig
>  wrote:
>> Hi Suhas,
>>
>>
>>
>> Sometimes tools are not the solution to the problem. The IESG should make
>> these small clarifications needed to get the charter finalized.
> 
> 
> I agree that tools are not the answer here.  The chairs will be
> following up on list to the discussions over the past few days.  The
> updated text will be discussed and moved to a future telechat (very
> soon, likely in 2 weeks) for review.  As the sponsoring AD, I will
> continue to follow the discussions and ensure points have been
> considered.  The charter has changed mostly to move decisions out of
> the charter and to the WG, so I think we'll be able to wrap this up
> soon and get started on the work.
> 
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> 
>>
>>
>>
>> Ciao
>>
>> Hannes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Suhas Nandakumar
>> Sent: 30 November 2017 01:54
>> To: Waltermire, David A. (Fed)
>> Cc: suit@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks Dave for the response and considering the concerns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also i was wondering, would it makes sense to have the charter on the
>> github, so people can comment and generate pull requests if needed
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Suhas
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed)
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Thank you for raising these concerns, I plan to spend time tomorrow
>> reviewing the meetecho recording from the BoF, reviewing the recent mailing
>> list discuaaion, the BoF notes (which I'll post), and the current charter.
>> Once the chairs have had a chance to review and discuss these materials we
>> will come back to the list with a plan to move forward.
>>
>> We want to make sure the charter reflects the consensus of the group and
>> addresses any concerns raised by the IESG. Please give us some time to make
>> sure this happens in a productive way forward.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> From: Suit  on behalf of Suhas Nandakumar
>> 
>> Date: Wed, November 29, 2017 6:32 PM -0500
>> To: suit@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Suit] Concerns about Charter and Process Followed
>>
>> Hello Chairs
>>
>>
>>
>>    Having spent sometime to browse through different lists and attempting to
>> sharer concerns to ensure that the charter text and consensus match, i
>> thought will share few points for us to ponder upon.
>>
>>
>>
>> As a follow up from BOF,
>>
>> minutes are not published to the data-tracker or the SUIT mailing list. I
>> discovered the following notes from the etherpad instead
>> (https://etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-100-suit)
>>
>>            Co-Chairs summarize concerns with current Charter text
>>
>>                 - Use of RFC4108
>>
>> ·                  - Hum on if we should remove 4108 - Stronger hum???
>>
>> ·                  - Hum on if we should leave 4108
>>
>>              - Should we constrain this to Class 1
>>
>>            - Clarification on text revolving around transport mechanisms
>>
>> ·                 - Hum: Should we avoid the development of new transport
>> mechanisms - Yes is louder in the room
>>
>>            - Should the charter have text to talk about capabilities
>>
>> ·                 - Hum: Charter needs text
>>
>> ·                - Hum: Leave out of charter, but add to architecture
>>
>>           - Should the charter restrict to one
>>
>> ·               - Hum: Yes
>>
>> ·              - Hum: No - Much Stronger
>>
>>         - Do we need a charter text update or leave it to a discussion for
>> discovery
>>
>> ·            - Hum: Stronger for leaving it to discussion
>>
>>
>>
>>        - Cullen Jennings via Jabber text to add: The architecture should
>> provide a way to discover the firmware server
>>
>> ·            - Hum: ???
>>
>> ·
>>
>>          - AD says we need to put this back on the list again
>>
>>
>>
>> As requested by the AD (last bullet point), the consensus confirming email
>> never made to the list.
>>
>>  From the above notes excerpt, the changes that had consensus in meeting are
>> not reflected in charter
>>
>> None of this has has been sent to list. Not the minutes from the meeting.
>> Not the charter.
>>
>> People have not had time to review or comment on it
>>
>>
>>
>> What should be the plan forward in addressing the concerns here ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Suhas Nandakumar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
>> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
>> information in any medium. Thank you.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Suit mailing list
>> Suit@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit
>>
> 
> 
> 


From nobody Thu Nov 30 08:50:14 2017
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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Hannes Tschofenig 
cc: Alissa Cooper , The IESG , "suit-chairs\@ietf.org" , "suit\@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-suit-00-08: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Hannes Tschofenig  wrote:
    > I understand that you all want to have this charter to be as precise as
    > possible. But, based on earlier discussions, we wanted to postpone some
    > decisions to a later phase when those have been investigated in the
    > group. For this reason I believe it is not possible to say how many
    > formats we want to standardize other than stating the intention that
    > the number ideally be small. The same is true for the actual data
    > model/serialization format. Needless to say that different formats have
    > different properties and offer more or less flexibility regarding the
    > serialization format. Everyone seems to have a different preference for
    > a format and the serialization. This is quite natural given that we are
    > engineers and that's pretty much the only things we care about in life
    > (besides the name of the group, of course).

+1

    > Since charters can be updated later I prefer to have the group figure
    > out the technical pieces and that they are not captured in the charter
    > yet. This should also remove the chicken-and-egg situation.

Agreed.

    alissa> 2. Michael Richardson raised some good question about this text
    alissa> that seem like they warrant clarification, or at least a
    alissa> consensus call: "Software update solutions that target updating
    alissa> software other than the  firmware binaries are also out of scope."

BTW, this would not be a blocking comment from me.
I can live with the text as is, I'd just prefer clarification.


--
Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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