From nobody Mon Dec 4 12:11:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F37912706D for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:11:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6RDFGqSWL6KL for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 12:11:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr10070.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.1.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 857AF128B88 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VI1PR0801MB2719; H:DB5PR08MB0615.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <115295BBF73FC440A826DFD191BE97F6@eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: db353139-f9c5-4aab-47de-08d53b532c54 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Dec 2017 20:11:15.3900 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0801MB2719 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Manifest Formats X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 20:11:23 -0000 > On 29 Nov 2017, at 04:58, Cullen Jennings wrote: > > >> On Nov 23, 2017, at 9:13 AM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: >> >> Hi Suhas, >> >> >> >> The way we would like this to work is not to have the update server crea= te these manifests in real-time, based on what the device asks for. Instead= , the manifests are created and signed by the developer (using a tool or a = web service). The update server is mainly a repository. This approach provi= des better security. >> >> > > How would that work? Would the update server, an online computer on the i= nternet, need have the private key to sign the manifests? I can assure you = that many IoT vendors do not handle their software signing keys that way. > > I imagine this working that a given vendor would likely only use one form= at but an update server could serve up manifests in any format. Sure one fo= rmat would be nice but no matter which one you choose, a bunch of vendors w= ill not like it and will do something else. The important part is the decid= ing the semantic level information and design choices. The syntax is really= not the hard part of any of this yet different vendors have strong opinion= s about this often with very good reasons. The expectation in draft-moran-suit-manifest00 is that end-to-end security = is used, and all online repositories are inherently distrusted. The argument is that the author of an update will know which serialisation = is expected by the recipient device. I think that it is more complex than t= his, however, so I believe that it is best to support a single canonical re= presentation. Best Regards, Brendan IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. From nobody Mon Dec 4 13:36:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42A08128BB6 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 13:36:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2NVu2lT0cyJ for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 13:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from gcc01-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cy1gcc01on0112.outbound.protection.outlook.com [23.103.200.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4372126BF0 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 13:36:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nist-gov; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=oyYGY++AwZ6PXXeb2tN1gzxfcojlBboeRuy/r/3H0eQ=; b=gRcr5fNXeD8t1ojSAdagwWFK3XRG1TmM6h8MQtpkAqQx5b0vNyYdaKy0ggGYKB9f72SxfZY/KVON7acPm0JZJmcMEziqe6bN9G7MqTE6LouyqfcdDeqwES13L4Nopeyi8fuux0rsvYKJYlUYxuAtFo/KMFBPiL7M1gqcO7b2DB4= Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.141) by CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.141) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.282.5; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 21:36:49 +0000 Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) by CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) with mapi id 15.20.0282.012; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 21:36:49 +0000 From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" To: "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Updated Charter Text and Way Forward Thread-Index: AdNtR/i5arvLnzJLRyKJjV+wsexVBA== Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 21:36:49 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=david.waltermire@nist.gov; x-originating-ip: [129.6.224.58] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY4PR09MB1495; 6:wUur65aPkjT2ZWb/p/wWqWQZG1nOQNixW7p2CxYBZELaazgN5SVQ0UBl69i6aiVzQlXvf9GjLA7zsyz0N412YK6vFcvxCrUa0XK633CxwfICZ6EJoH9V850GmYh9AXppSRAfpK/tIVUzbOIKO2RPCMZOe8lidmm1FaWp5D+ZZ6CiZ/nGk7GP1fhP4dPw+BSj4lqSTGXQSYUxBrNi6e7dKXA/4OV9I4zIqnxcplgaQ7+XB19a4UhEuJ+sEwmWNNeDibQOg5b2hJuDESBKi8SC59eUKri/2Re9aIA7s0G5dAVaW4t12fI7TvAP9c+xk8VbKFIepsFBPiQm9ASNGrg0ELQBLueaHVNYG5VbQm47vTg=; 5:TZpVw72HY4pRv9TbtxPP3kiOd4m33nEZ0mgpuZXx5Wp3u0OUzyMAN+x5bJxKK10+f5mHqdPykNffq1cqMvCpXAbfQYU4Gh1PMAXLuG1z5rH+LKBuu7Sf5SiFFYiOuqLglz9uvY99vCE2UpB7+U1j9Zoa+yODPezNw89/cDGS74c=; 24:DhHJgbXt56J95z1Ley85nKl++ag04r1wDNUrUIAGd6IP4oSenr08m20QL+/OpizPtcBxCUaDzZS8+NQ4ZDIe5fehiIJrdf0JM79mUbJzGq4=; 7:lNaAIzlmoXHYrxbN/QkSe1AT7Jkfk7AcpS7RJ7RY2TGxjAvKvqhH97XK/cLxYIyJtAMRJ7Yxahe6xAj0wkz69eU2Y+k6810onEcp1+QJG91ecqUYnd4vqRPDIpxGbPZ1EGUOBw4gSt/cvCMhAHX90hyCcHeaVYkEgyJimZQNpA9Ke0aPQK9rzucZyHTTaTFi7C4e/4s4DFkuRAiDNdYtb1QZVQCOq1DVck5QQQIb474704jEKg5kkfl0i0D3m9j1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5eff12e4-af63-43f1-285c-08d53b5f2058 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(4534020)(4602075)(4627115)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(48565401081)(5600026)(4604075)(2017052603286); SRVR:CY4PR09MB1495; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CY4PR09MB1495: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(278428928389397)(192374486261705)(100405760836317); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040450)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(93006095)(93001095)(10201501046)(3231022)(3002001)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123555025)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123562025)(20161123564025)(20161123558100)(20161123560025)(6072148)(201708071742011); SRVR:CY4PR09MB1495; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000803101)(100110400095); SRVR:CY4PR09MB1495; x-forefront-prvs: 051158ECBB x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(376002)(346002)(39860400002)(366004)(189002)(199003)(2906002)(316002)(6116002)(2900100001)(5660300001)(102836003)(1730700003)(7736002)(6916009)(101416001)(99286004)(25786009)(3846002)(7696005)(8936002)(33656002)(15650500001)(2351001)(105586002)(106356001)(68736007)(189998001)(3280700002)(305945005)(53936002)(74316002)(3660700001)(86362001)(9686003)(478600001)(66066001)(8676002)(5640700003)(14454004)(6506006)(77096006)(81156014)(97736004)(55016002)(6436002)(2501003)(81166006)(54356011); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR09MB1495; H:CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nist.gov does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5eff12e4-af63-43f1-285c-08d53b5f2058 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Dec 2017 21:36:49.2123 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR09MB1495 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Updated Charter Text and Way Forward X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 21:36:53 -0000 Kathleen, Dave, and I met earlier today to discuss the charter and the way = forward. This email includes updated charter text and milestones, and a bri= ef description of the changes we have made based on the input from the mail= ing list. The following is updated charter text and milestones based on the mailing l= ist conversation since the BoF. We are posting this text for review on the = SUIT mailing list for 1 week, ending on Monday, December 11th at 23:59 UTC.= This review is a call for consensus on the full charter. Please indicate i= f you support this text or if you have any objections or blocking concerns = on this text. Please provide comments including proposed text changes ASAP = to provide ample time for discussion.=20 Kathleen will post updated text to the Datatracker at a future date once we= get a sense of the mailing list discussion to follow. This will likely be = before we have assessed consensus. We will update the Datatracker and post = these updates to the list as needed per agreement on the list. -- start charter text --- Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need fo= r a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for constrained = devices. Security experts, researchers, and regulators recommend that all = IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism. While there are many propri= etary firmware update mechanisms in use today, there is a lack of a modern = interoperable approach of securely updating the firmware in IoT devices. In= June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on 'Inte= rnet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', and RFC 8240 documents vario= us requirements and challenges that are specific to IoT devices. A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: * A mechanism to transport firmware images to compatible devices. * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a fi= rmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and depen= dencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic information f= or protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion.=20 * The firmware image itself. This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution (taking into a= ccount past learnings from RFC 4108 and other firmware update solutions) th= at will be usable on Class 1 (as defined in RFC 7228) devices, i.e., device= s with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more capa= ble devices as well. This group will not define any new transport or disco= very mechanisms, but may describe how to use existing mechanisms within the= architecture. In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely: * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the in= volved entities, security threats, and assumptions.=20 * One or more manifest format specifications. The initial focus of this group will be development of the information mode= l for the contents of a manifest. Once there is general agreement on the co= ntents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats such as= CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encod= e the manifest. A small number of formats is preferred to reduce the comple= xity of a firmware management solution, where each IoT device would typical= ly only support one format, but the same tool or service might support all = such formats. To support a wide range of deployment scenarios, the formats = are expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of different firmware= sources and permission models. This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic application soft= ware update mechanism, but instead this group will focus on firmware develo= pment practices in the embedded industry. Software update solutions that ta= rget updating software other than the firmware binaries (e.g., applications= ) are also out of scope. This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors a= nd OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. -- end charter text --- -- start proposed milestones -- Date Milestone Nov 2018 Submit an initial manifest serialization format to the IESG for p= ublication as a Proposed Standard.=20 Jul 2018 Submit manifest information model to the IESG for publication a= s Informational.=20 Jul 2018 Calendar item: Second interoperability event at IETF 102.=20 Mar 2018 Calendar item: First interoperability event at IETF 101. Mar 2018 Adopt a manifest information model as a WG item. Mar 2018 Adopt initial manifest serialization format(s) as WG item(s). Jan 2018 Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. -- end proposed milestones -- The updated charter and milestones addresses the following concerns raised = on the mailing list: - The text around the IAB workshop on the Internet of Things (IoT) Software= Update (IOTSU) has been minimized, with a single sentence left to provide = historical backgroud information. - Bulleted items in the second and fourth paragraphs are now indicated by a= n asterisk. The formatting is fixed. - Text about RFC 4108 has been further minimized, with only a reference to = RFC 4108 included as a source of past learnings on update solutions along w= ith existing other work on firmware update solutions. This makes RFC 4108 p= art of the larger body of work to consider as lessons-learned in this space= . - Discussion of defining the use of existing transport or discovery mechani= sms is now referenced to be described in the architecture. - The text on formats has been clarified to be more consistent with the dis= cussions on the mailing list. The new text discusses the development of a m= anifest information model that describes the manifest contents, and the dev= elopment of one or more manifest serialization formats and crypto mechanism= s. The information model and serialization format split has also been refle= cted in the milestones. This leaves the actual document organization up to = the WG, the milestones do not dictate that documents be separated (or not s= eparated). - The term "firmware" has been used where appropriate instead of "software"= to better reflect the focus of the WG on firmware update mechanisms and to= be consistent with the BoF meeting consensus. The milestones have been upd= ated for more consistent use of terminology as well. - The last paragraph has been rewritten to avoid singling out a single OS o= r enumerating a larger list of OS's, and instead to focus on the difference= between firmware and applications, as discussed at the BoF. Regards, Dave Waltermire and Dave Thaler From nobody Mon Dec 4 15:21:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844E0128D69 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:21:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KT8wr8My1VFz for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:21:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F27DC128D44 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:21:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D723220072 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACAB83C61 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 18:21:54 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "suit\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Updated Charter Text and Way Forward X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 23:21:56 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Waltermire, David A. (Fed) wrote: > Kathleen, Dave, and I met earlier today to discuss the charter and the way > forward. This email includes updated charter text and milestones, and a brief > description of the changes we have made based on the input from the mailing > list. Thank you, I have no significant objections to the text, and if we went ahead as-is, I'd consider my nitpick comments below to be in the rough. > In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely: > * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the > involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. > * One or more manifest format specifications. Do you want to change, "namely" to "including", such that the chairs can decide how/if we are creating a seperate requirements document (which the IESG is not keen on anymore), or simply having architecture and requirements as part of another document? > The initial focus of this group will be development of the information model > for the contents of a manifest. If this means YANG, please say so. If it could be some other modelling language, then please say so. If the idea is have just descriptive text, again, I'd like to know. (I'd prefer it to use YANG. I'm not a YANG lawyer, I feel confident I could play one on TV now, and I believe I might volunteer to write part of a document. The YANG->SID->CBOR path is very close to being ready for prime time.) > Once there is general agreement on the > contents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats such as > CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode With the caveat that ASN.1 and CBOR are in difference categories. ASN.1 <-> YANG information model DER <-> CBOR serialization format > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and > OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. As I said before, I'd like to know what this means from a concrete point of view. What metrics might the IESG use to decide if we are succeeding? ("Tell me how you'll measure me, and I'll tell you how I'll behave") > Jul 2018 Calendar item: Second interoperability event at IETF 102. > Mar 2018 Calendar item: First interoperability event at IETF 101. If we can get there by then, great. I'm doubtful. > Mar 2018 Adopt a manifest information model as a WG item. > Mar 2018 Adopt initial manifest serialization format(s) as WG item(s). > Jan 2018 Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. I don't know if the informational model or the requirements go in the architecture document. I think that they do? > Regards, > Dave Waltermire and Dave Thaler Thanks, I really like the new text. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlol2JEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVb0wgAprnNCywsi95MfhAl58vGQv7ooXycY2GHcc5aFEPVVevW9gWZ7RLKUkN/ ms6O2gXNglo2EvytqZTm3SftOL+o0D6n1Ww9g8P/i1yRiO0nQ26YRNDKIT7luJ4z ObKs5EEAmBqRgr5KUQgN/QA3vcYpbI1qMaoZGCsPFYstZaqmqERw6CYs1pUWBuK3 x+NRiYYlp5eemOA1Fd2XfCfmM+2DKkJp7tnN1qs+yOvkieHwJjDy2h+5qpUX8aav FcrXabxdqqJL7G3iNmA8EGUF+taDrHIq9VEN+F+bVn2y9sbLSYH2Pk2drZPV69do zjW6SXM/T0+t/ZiryDd5UJzciNLd2A== =tTvW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Dec 4 15:41:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E78128D69 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:41:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kTVgQ8gGX1WN for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:41:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-BN3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn3nam01on0118.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.33.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CB37128D40 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:41:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=nv4Ht6H6DxeqIFa3worB+1G/AEXso8h+IIzHgX/r4kk=; b=EQHJNcADgaQO2ZzmSFJzLRrjKltayhByFW+5uMDjZKQyaNV6z8ZoBc8KLc+UzktH/2RxsC0UeSnM5CBQnjqgzCsf/8ndJhU2KaByT46FeRsuqTS5Y+utiu6wI4NQbgtcN3X4XAueGS97BLIOX8TuSpxEbsA237WkxU8ropH/BUA= Received: from CY4PR21MB0856.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.173.192.145) by CY4PR21MB0280.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.173.193.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.323.0; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR21MB0280; H:CY4PR21MB0856.namprd21.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 7191dd37-d00e-4d2d-a740-08d53b70991d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Dec 2017 23:41:53.2151 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR21MB0280 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Updated Charter Text and Way Forward X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 23:41:57 -0000 > > The initial focus of this group will be development of the informati= on model > > for the contents of a manifest. > > If this means YANG, please say so. > If it could be some other modelling language, then please say so. > If the idea is have just descriptive text, again, I'd like to know. I believe our (the chairs') intent was just to generically say that even if= there's different serialization=20 formats, there is just one common conceptual information model so that the = same tool/UI/service/whatever could be used with devices that use different serialization formats, which = is how we read the BoF/list consensus.=20 Whether that is in a YANG data model or something else is left to the WG to= decide, as opposed to being constrained by charter. That's because we want to charter while t= hat discussion is still=20 ongoing, rather than wait. Dave Thaler From nobody Mon Dec 4 15:52:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9171250B8 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VypLqj_BIZU6 for ; Mon, 4 Dec 2017 15:51:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02on0118.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EBDF6120724 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR21MB0743; H:CY4PR21MB0856.namprd21.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CY4PR21MB085694F5C0F1EE6C0C7D2CC2A33C0CY4PR21MB0856namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 73c7baa5-fb4a-41f0-7152-08d53b71ff5e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Dec 2017 23:51:54.3109 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR21MB0743 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 23:51:59 -0000 --_000_CY4PR21MB085694F5C0F1EE6C0C7D2CC2A33C0CY4PR21MB0856namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the discussions we had during the BoF was about the relationship bet= ween SUIT and TEEP, and there was consensus that SUIT would focus on "firmware" used for boot, = as opposed to "applications" that could be installed later which was the focus of TEEP. = As such, I believe we said that the term "firmware" was more precise for SUIT than "software" = in general. So when Dave W. and I did the latest edits that he just sent out, the text = is careful to always use the term "firmware" when it's talking about what's in scope, and "software" is = only used in more generic text (e.g., about what's NOT in scope), etc. The last remaining use is in the BoF title "Software Update for the Interne= t of Things (SUIT)". We discussed possible alternatives, and would like to suggest the name FiRmware Update for the Internet of Things (FRUIT) We believe this change (s/Software/FiRmware/) would be more consistent with= the charter text and the consensus of the BoF and the list. It's also important for all t= o understand that, even if the mailing list name changes, the full email archive would be kept and mov= ed to the new list, so email history is not a blocker. Comments on the proposed FRUIT name? Dave --_000_CY4PR21MB085694F5C0F1EE6C0C7D2CC2A33C0CY4PR21MB0856namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One of the discussions we had during the BoF was abo= ut the relationship between SUIT and TEEP,
and there was consensus that SUIT would focus on “firmware” use= d for boot, as opposed to

“applications” that could be installed l= ater which was the focus of TEEP.   As such, I believe=

we said that the term “firmware” was mor= e precise for SUIT than “software” in general.

 

So when Dave W. and I did the latest edits that he j= ust sent out, the text is careful to always use the

term “firmware” when it’s talking = about what’s in scope, and “software” is only used in mor= e generic

text (e.g., about what’s NOT in scope), etc.

 

The last remaining use is in the BoF title “So= ftware Update for the Internet of Things (SUIT)”.

We discussed possible alternatives, and would like t= o suggest the name

 

FiRmware Update for the I= nternet of Things (FRUIT)

 

We believe this change (s/Software/FiRmware/) would = be more consistent with the charter text

and the consensus of the BoF and the list. &nbs= p;  It’s also important for all to understand that, even if=

the mailing list name changes, the full email archiv= e would be kept and moved to the new list,

so email history is not a blocker.

 

Comments on the proposed FRUIT name?

 

Dave

--_000_CY4PR21MB085694F5C0F1EE6C0C7D2CC2A33C0CY4PR21MB0856namp_-- From nobody Tue Dec 5 02:07:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3DD124205 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iMHAe9l0Ga7d for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:07:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr20066.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.2.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B00E127876 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:07:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=armh.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-arm-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=Y7/ALbHfTrSuCLSUW+IGUJKh1M8TZqJIntiZRrwzdXk=; b=BnAT0y0q0jB52KXzuNKpv/5Y0QWhTVeMcUEh1/NzQCFud5Ya9RnIZHw56/3CU3024Rny+Z85ldoSi/ZGjwC6049QsR+n/Qo50raChAVwOcMGjZpvXs6NbEOm0PITpsw90EEx44c7WL6rW3pAZPHEmWXshlCUnW9AsNpEhaY7BTA= Received: from AM4PR0801MB2706.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.167.90.148) by AM4PR0801MB2705.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com (10.167.90.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.282.5; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 10:07:09 +0000 Received: from AM4PR0801MB2706.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::edae:da33:a0c9:fe3f]) by AM4PR0801MB2706.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::edae:da33:a0c9:fe3f%13]) with mapi id 15.20.0282.012; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 10:07:09 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: Dave Thaler , "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposed WG name and software vs firmware Thread-Index: AdNtWt0+xxh2Dc57S0ulw5X6AmBVOgAVbohA Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 10:07:09 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [217.140.96.140] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM4PR0801MB2705; 6:Z95ws3BFD7ILhuC4N4NXTVJ02Ac0Dc+H3FODN5ATrXvTFqHWm/dOV7MAvYROdg8QOSYm0IVHm+qHjHKQ7cbFI1ijBKvSI7m7rGC0q79CrL4JNG7K7DLaSuAzM6xoPFfMjff+4zzv6rva6C9PmC21QkP/zmnsNgUIPWCfFf10G1kbvL40rzkRSZK1v3vI3ig/PhEswbS+wWT5ok6rxA5GEbZY24c/bo972N0dtmOFtlx+PcKF7pC21wfVi63t5Ll3LtGkXOsB3mFJ+lp19MkC3Yu9CAncO61QsVvduDKldLU8JQu7PcYfd1utOMb1bb1RvAQU+mxLfSjIZACTJ7KFRVa4T4dHUqaV/Ynh1Rx4p2U=; 5:EXYko2jA5ib/ahgIfYSch9Zdh79jXRJXUPV96MyFGsDXcI7suYLfkJXR9Rwomd4wBdwGTq/ItHZdmVxCKLyj/XSL6XHmKAoz/kfd4zlyorblRz/edjj+OVsM3uhhfOAxi6VCgutNq21J5a3pIuG4t2CARwAllxCOQxus4/buvzw=; 24:ioN8pnlx+4iCpkxBkHO+Of0AM5qDONe6KOihbVT+QF6uWf63hE3uFBDabOG5e41fygbOVp3c0T1hu+rjN8AgVtBKZPCV1qjNUi5GFki2beI=; 7:oz3YNkcJc1yxp0BhPt6/IrpIoRKpaVnL8fYxMghR28ia6gpHeM5seBF2Bd4b+V7Vrpm1PLy4Tk5H1/iNlo91WDacChEIFvgTpAZwzQgF/hxW0eehD0WH36r1A7dRNV5g0wjxqVsp/ykdxyT4wsApeo9Sq4difp0TI9o4BzCO8oHDhfoAgdLzHd5Vnbbo9kgDCSifoDvnsPFfs1xy6s/yqWM26D252q/PH4gfKq3KeTd4JB6SMza8zaMdJRb+nVMA x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM4PR0801MB2705; H:AM4PR0801MB2706.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_AM4PR0801MB2706C4B1E3A1C676E72B44DFFA3D0AM4PR0801MB2706_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bce37f07-45c5-44f6-f086-08d53bc7f2a8 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Dec 2017 10:07:09.7700 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR0801MB2705 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 10:07:16 -0000 --_000_AM4PR0801MB2706C4B1E3A1C676E72B44DFFA3D0AM4PR0801MB2706_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds good for me. It makes sense to me to be more precise regarding the S= UIT/TEEP separation. From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Thaler Sent: 04 December 2017 23:52 To: suit@ietf.org Subject: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware One of the discussions we had during the BoF was about the relationship bet= ween SUIT and TEEP, and there was consensus that SUIT would focus on "firmware" used for boot, = as opposed to "applications" that could be installed later which was the focus of TEEP. = As such, I believe we said that the term "firmware" was more precise for SUIT than "software" = in general. So when Dave W. and I did the latest edits that he just sent out, the text = is careful to always use the term "firmware" when it's talking about what's in scope, and "software" is = only used in more generic text (e.g., about what's NOT in scope), etc. The last remaining use is in the BoF title "Software Update for the Interne= t of Things (SUIT)". We discussed possible alternatives, and would like to suggest the name FiRmware Update for the Internet of Things (FRUIT) We believe this change (s/Software/FiRmware/) would be more consistent with= the charter text and the consensus of the BoF and the list. It's also important for all t= o understand that, even if the mailing list name changes, the full email archive would be kept and mov= ed to the new list, so email history is not a blocker. Comments on the proposed FRUIT name? Dave IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM4PR0801MB2706C4B1E3A1C676E72B44DFFA3D0AM4PR0801MB2706_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sounds good for me. It= makes sense to me to be more precise regarding the SUIT/TEEP separation.

 

From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dave Thaler
Sent: 04 December 2017 23:52
To: suit@ietf.org
Subject: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware=

 

One of the discussions we had d= uring the BoF was about the relationship between SUIT and TEEP,
and there was consensus that SUIT would focus on “firmware” use= d for boot, as opposed to

“applications” that= could be installed later which was the focus of TEEP.   As such,= I believe

we said that the term “fi= rmware” was more precise for SUIT than “software” in gene= ral.

 

So when Dave W. and I did the l= atest edits that he just sent out, the text is careful to always use the

term “firmware” whe= n it’s talking about what’s in scope, and “software”= ; is only used in more generic

text (e.g., about what’s = NOT in scope), etc.

 

The last remaining use is in th= e BoF title “Software Update for the Internet of Things (SUIT)”= .

We discussed possible alternati= ves, and would like to suggest the name

 

Fi= Rmware Update for the Internet of Things (FRUIT)

 

We believe this change (s/Softw= are/FiRmware/) would be more consistent with the charter text

and the consensus of the BoF an= d the list.    It’s also important for all to understa= nd that, even if

the mailing list name changes, = the full email archive would be kept and moved to the new list,<= /span>

so email history is not a block= er.

 

Comments on the proposed FRUIT = name?

 

Dave

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_AM4PR0801MB2706C4B1E3A1C676E72B44DFFA3D0AM4PR0801MB2706_-- From nobody Tue Dec 5 02:31:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B4A31292CE for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nztXa7vpqtIf for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 02:31:11 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port 10024) with ESMTP id d5-LJYxf8YeX for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 05:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7538129465 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 05:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5045720072; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A846482C46; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:05:36 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Dave Thaler cc: "suit\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 13:05:39 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I prefer SUIT to FRUIT, but you make a good point that we carefully talk about firmware except in the title. I can live with either. Perhaps someone can come up with an expansion of "FRUITFUL" :-) or some other non-english word as Brendan Moran suggests. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlommaAACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWjDwf/ZTkwY7HzRlKwVNhMXsi7KcamrnqCW+uHlt7k9NWQGORiXRXw/R5mY34Q NOeeG3d3d73R3HxtR/A+pG3wmEghP3KRCFa6SI18z9dQvRiwkfGBaZBHbfzB4y5x Skz0jdWR3bhNVwMP1Ut8q0Ow3/tdbeHLI0X/nRR8rKmMolNkVMjR1Eg0C0Jad88d OJgYK/hp4UYhe/fZItC5mTXyHa9iavE/4YYq7GXC5uqSOWxy2sRZ+FS09dY9DsLB qHFOYaHBXFw6ue4NvtsFlOFxKiANwMKHVgChSq+1dHDyiRG3aOkqOxvT3j64428s lfEK890kwsvRRT0mV7L6I1V/Bc8TzQ== =cyi2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Dec 5 05:58:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3156612949F for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 05:58:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WkLpxax-3uYW for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 05:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A855A12949B for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 05:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vB5Dw8Bp000569; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:58:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.217.119] (p5DC7E827.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.232.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3yrjxr1zT4zDWwq; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:58:08 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:58:07 +0100 Cc: Dave Thaler , "suit@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 534175087.037186-70ad284d102983ca12c484324cc1e539 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C7963B9-29E9-47F5-867E-1028CE507215@tzi.org> References: To: Hannes Tschofenig X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 13:58:14 -0000 On Dec 5, 2017, at 11:07, Hannes Tschofenig = wrote: >=20 > FiRmware Update for the Internet of Things (FRUIT) Aw. I wanted Firmware Replacement for the Internet of ThingZ (FRITZ) (Sorry. Not really googleable either.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Dec 5 06:37:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8FC124F57 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:37:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Z9_0HFCpNeo for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3F3C127076 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA9A20072 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:40:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD7383C61 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:37:41 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: suit@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <19053.1511458544@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <991ECBD7-3005-48D9-A7C7-C79189D48284@iii.ca> <97c9f8d9-7d8c-5d86-a87a-1807c82e5fd2@nostrum.com> <3395.1511969104@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <30575.1512429985@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 14:37:44 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Kathleen points out that I thought I was posting to the list, but I was not. I had asked: charter> This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon charter> vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. mcr> It would be nice if someone could indicate how we are going to do that. mcr> For instance, would having an interim meeting at some embedded conference mcr> be mcr> within this scope? Should have have some formal liason process? mcr> mcr> Would the chairs be willing to maintain a set of canonical (having been subject mcr> to a WG consensus call...) slides as to what we are doing, where we are, such mcr> that participants in the WG would feel confident representing the views of the mcr> WG in other fora? I then said: mcr> I realize re-reading this that I am communicating with the BOF chairs, and we mcr> have no idea who the WG chairs might be, so of course "they" can not answer. mcr> My question is therefore to the ML: what do you think this part means, and mcr> what do yo think about producing some useful educational material that is not mcr> in the form of an internet-draft? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlomrzUACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXqcggApsFAMH07NJuEnbtvNgxEaCH7bhoAwJin8UZpGV+c/y4v6Pl4DhsPFI6D t+FkKlrv1oINc1W8Qie+II33ExtNfMBLqPpcmr6ACs5hNc+Q6PjpiLs3nzj+C76Y Ypu2idaN9nIl7BzHOU8N1CBBaBlSjDmVBCdjIJ/NfikwFNMA+oenkgirgEqUcyzq c6OhzZrTjIm7d1/Lr31IJL2CfoC1FPi+y9FfQVxS8OGboOmkdwPFxZevZBxrlrdH KAp++5grPikUqt6PXOJbS1sNCsz51bTdiXngBOE5Ygfjgll1S179wbVF1DOx8VDw WspOb8HEzzcnhxV8BT+BMBR7KK2qBA== =JOVo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Dec 5 06:47:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC821294F5 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:47:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QIVCHCrauE2e for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22a.google.com (mail-pg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A1241294EC for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:47:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id k15so284469pgr.7 for ; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 06:47:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2TUintcbmRxlTCEn/u9hU0boz5liygiryurKgEhE6nY=; b=VCbFvBR+yqeQ9LzQ7oNzU6n33bexKoBRaXvQKEQmqMbpZHyBe+dnr9YYqMbM/h+fuv gp0RDg7RgLD0nrDFHu+RbkqSOLdW+siKk8dL/TlnUXDM7L3g0gY1mtOflFIgSlaN8s/p ZdvpCQo6/Y8mRDCzHjullc1a/dYNNvX5L+cL0l4hoFW4ktGaEdVSoOiMYbWg7p7IgOXn HtrPRgCw2I+gRbs8MUGdVPsk8b6BUQtm5Kup/E7/02lGUG7+S5zTsaQ7QTcaZUtAijPM P2uzHx09Dx7SPeJ6H4syUIvb0WZ1C85f2l7OanJ2FW26hCvqygtgX0U2nI1OYtdDENW4 GUBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2TUintcbmRxlTCEn/u9hU0boz5liygiryurKgEhE6nY=; b=lgofGJ5rlwS+IaGPYTioUElsW8QQ9Q/9wncuLpVkJ7kn6AuCS8eDR38q2lKJYxiQfW ZYO0d+dGpjjPZnzrS/tWO1yuFv7O674Sh4KWIRw+A3dFa5ix5SehtH5LJNms3q22oQfJ AADDanKrSjFVBqI3h5IdXPofaxDYYRjg2Pu1e0sW5mR/5c8abrTgdDgHn5CFj/nTYcgz +4oB9yqt94hTk8KHYxK9ct666FcEiVqgP78tzwx9+y1KCFmZMoxdhI8QfMazPIRWulgl /VDEp9znJ85XxxPHma7ktuiL7u3MroY3X5fFbiFdOxxhGz6rLnO6Uyvgbwxr8FABmxWy CV9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX7pqJrS3+D01s3YTxe+dQ3dJwUJUj4RhPLWR9vkHTVq0P1t06Dr +Rcvh6KmwwTmYEQltUkqafwmpp0LRseH4VxpEZA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMbl7s6OaLt31NWx1xQJ2PA+Kv1edRpU+HoDSBqmELl7BVhefQ5WeP2GeH1USZRI8Xg4mwLM5IJNJIOa7FFy6XM= X-Received: by 10.84.173.1 with SMTP id o1mr18926874plb.135.1512485226967; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 06:47:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.208 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:46:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <0C7963B9-29E9-47F5-867E-1028CE507215@tzi.org> References: <0C7963B9-29E9-47F5-867E-1028CE507215@tzi.org> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:46:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Hannes Tschofenig , "suit@ietf.org" , Dave Thaler Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 14:47:09 -0000 In terms of searching, if you just add IETF into the search, it will pop out on top. IETF SUIT IETF FRUIT - once it is changed. Best regards, Kathleen On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Dec 5, 2017, at 11:07, Hannes Tschofenig w= rote: >> >> FiRmware Update for the Internet of Things (FRUIT) > > Aw. I wanted > > Firmware Replacement for the Internet of ThingZ (FRITZ) > > (Sorry. Not really googleable either.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit --=20 Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Tue Dec 5 06:51:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A436E127444 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:51:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w8rTFsZSMR-C for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from gcc01-CY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-cy1gcc01on0112.outbound.protection.outlook.com [23.103.200.112]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8610C127369 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:51:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nistgov.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nist-gov; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=XShhf86CJT09QaSV0lltXST89OwSP8XcNk1Fl70pyRE=; b=JDwWgmXLOcT7sOCoQiZYOT8DN6339ZNij+znWI8XgYJiX2YsiexvPn7Ce9oENQRQzWphFWBZSU7sFPhs0HiAj9jQhMWmmZqgxLykVzksPYHG/Q+mt7EhOPKWDt03CjlEY9dqiTa9UHnVfBwYBsEkNP+Ohn5HIbk1A21uH6i8lpk= Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.141) by CY4PR09MB1494.namprd09.prod.outlook.com (10.173.191.140) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P256) id 15.20.282.5; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:51:28 +0000 Received: from CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) by CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com ([10.173.191.141]) with mapi id 15.20.0282.012; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:51:28 +0000 From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" To: Michael Richardson , "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question Thread-Index: AQHTY+ps2NnfCkDXrkOFGcxpIv1Q2qMiOyUAgAZiS+CAAjaWgIAAFCQAgACcdgCACEPc4IAAHkmAgAD7CQCAAAOSgIAAAVIQ Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:51:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <19053.1511458544@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <991ECBD7-3005-48D9-A7C7-C79189D48284@iii.ca> <97c9f8d9-7d8c-5d86-a87a-1807c82e5fd2@nostrum.com> <3395.1511969104@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <30575.1512429985@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <16181.1512484661@obiwan.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <16181.1512484661@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=david.waltermire@nist.gov; x-originating-ip: [129.6.224.58] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY4PR09MB1494; 6:HQS1Z+ukPnWybKcVZV+6YOY14q4HwAGcOZc5jc6A+feFo4KiLim9mFmJ5NqBU8/OOVNxO8Jlh4gaJaHb5v+Ti6QEK0+y4rC7uGGCi9QCu5iE5aiCnCBOj+MuYf3oXsuQ8ez81kcUTPC76gpTLS39adLwvXURYIcEz0wm6/zV8SjXSKmj/VME62iTfUjvjTiu9QqF8EJq3Li/ioF3PAnMPWKRMV0e4JAM27aBGs6DcnXq4nYVagN9NDf1UMGRxfiaAoe+45FuYmc7vznVd9+iqTDoZNT6b/Up1xiMiCy2m949QYHDf1jz39ReMZF06oHgIB1B+DGDfl/sMPzmOx5Fv7ANdZjzAKYN8TPuPzTpiE8=; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CY4PR09MB1494; H:CY4PR09MB1495.namprd09.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: nist.gov does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9087ef70-3bd0-45ab-192f-08d53befaa2f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 05 Dec 2017 14:51:27.9666 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR09MB1494 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 14:51:32 -0000 Michael, Comments below. > From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 9:38 AM > To: suit@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Suit] Suit Charter Updates Process Question >=20 > Kathleen points out that I thought I was posting to the list, but I was n= ot. >=20 > I had asked: >=20 > charter> This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with si= licon > charter> vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. >=20 > mcr> It would be nice if someone could indicate how we are going to d= o that. > mcr> For instance, would having an interim meeting at some embedded > conference > mcr> be > mcr> within this scope? Should have have some formal liason proces= s? > mcr> > mcr> Would the chairs be willing to maintain a set of canonical (havi= ng been > subject > mcr> to a WG consensus call...) slides as to what we are doing, where= we are, > such > mcr> that participants in the WG would feel confident representing th= e views > of the > mcr> WG in other fora? I have expressed interest in staying on as a chair after the WG is formed. = If I am asked to stay as chair, I would be happy to maintain some slides wi= th some help from the key protagonists in the group. Otherwise, I cannot sp= eak for the new chairs as Michael has stated below. > I then said: > mcr> I realize re-reading this that I am communicating with the BOF c= hairs, > and we > mcr> have no idea who the WG chairs might be, so of course "they" can= not > answer. >=20 > mcr> My question is therefore to the ML: what do you think this part= means, > and > mcr> what do yo think about producing some useful educational materia= l that > is not > mcr> in the form of an internet-draft? As a participant, I think once we have a solution, we will need to increase= awareness of the solution. Having some shared education materials could be= useful to help with this. > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works - > =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- Thanks, Dave From nobody Tue Dec 5 06:56:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71172127599 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 06:56:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rGni0T_nRctA for ; 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d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="708530" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 05 Dec 2017 14:56:00 +0000 Received: from [10.61.92.65] (ams3-vpn-dhcp7234.cisco.com [10.61.92.65]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vB5Eu0do011932; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:56:00 GMT To: Dave Thaler , "suit@ietf.org" References: From: Eliot Lear Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 15:56:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="f71ajFR9m7J26BuxTeUtkoO1VOElCfGL3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 14:56:05 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --f71ajFR9m7J26BuxTeUtkoO1VOElCfGL3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Iekp567q9oPb8dMEnkRAQ2j8r18xbFfHT"; protected-headers="v1" From: Eliot Lear To: Dave Thaler , "suit@ietf.org" Message-ID: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware References: In-Reply-To: --Iekp567q9oPb8dMEnkRAQ2j8r18xbFfHT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------47101D42C89F968170E9B029" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------47101D42C89F968170E9B029 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May we have fruitful discussions that lead to a suitable set of solutions= =2E On 12/5/17 12:51 AM, Dave Thaler wrote: > > One of the discussions we had during the BoF was about the > relationship between SUIT and TEEP, > and there was consensus that SUIT would focus on =E2=80=9Cfirmware=E2=80= =9D used for > boot, as opposed to > > =E2=80=9Capplications=E2=80=9D that could be installed later which was = the focus of > TEEP.=C2=A0=C2=A0 As such, I believe > > we said that the term =E2=80=9Cfirmware=E2=80=9D was more precise for S= UIT than > =E2=80=9Csoftware=E2=80=9D in general. > > =C2=A0 > > So when Dave W. and I did the latest edits that he just sent out, the > text is careful to always use the > > term =E2=80=9Cfirmware=E2=80=9D when it=E2=80=99s talking about what=E2= =80=99s in scope, and > =E2=80=9Csoftware=E2=80=9D is only used in more generic > > text (e.g., about what=E2=80=99s NOT in scope), etc. > > =C2=A0 > > The last remaining use is in the BoF title =E2=80=9CSoftware Update for= the > Internet of Things (SUIT)=E2=80=9D. > > We discussed possible alternatives, and would like to suggest the name > > =C2=A0 > > FiRmware Update for the Internet of Things (FRUIT) > > =C2=A0 > > We believe this change (s/Software/FiRmware/) would be more consistent > with the charter text > > and the consensus of the BoF and the list.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99= s also important for > all to understand that, even if > > the mailing list name changes, the full email archive would be kept > and moved to the new list, > > so email history is not a blocker. > > =C2=A0 > > Comments on the proposed FRUIT name? > > =C2=A0 > > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit --------------47101D42C89F968170E9B029 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

May we have fruitful discussions that lead to a suitable set of solutions.


On 12/5/17 12:51 AM, Dave Thaler wrote= :

One of the discussions we had during the BoF was about the relationship between SUIT and TEEP,
and there was consensus that SUIT would focus on =E2=80=9Cfirmw= are=E2=80=9D used for boot, as opposed to

=E2=80=9Capplications=E2=80=9D that could = be installed later which was the focus of TEEP.=C2=A0=C2=A0 As such, I belie= ve

we said that the term =E2=80=9Cfirmware=E2= =80=9D was more precise for SUIT than =E2=80=9Csoftware=E2=80=9D in general.

=C2=A0

So when Dave W. and I did the latest edits= that he just sent out, the text is careful to always use the

term =E2=80=9Cfirmware=E2=80=9D when it=E2= =80=99s talking about what=E2=80=99s in scope, and =E2=80=9Csoftware=E2=80=9D is only= used in more generic

text (e.g., about what=E2=80=99s NOT in sc= ope), etc.

=C2=A0

The last remaining use is in the BoF title= =E2=80=9CSoftware Update for the Internet of Things (SUIT)=E2=80= =9D.

We discussed possible alternatives, and would like to suggest the name

=C2=A0

FiRmware Update= for the Internet of Things (FRUIT)

=C2=A0

We believe this change (s/Software/FiRmware/) would be more consistent with the charter text

and the consensus of the BoF and the list.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s also important for all to = understand that, even if

the mailing list name changes, the full email archive would be kept and moved to the new list,

so email history is not a blocker.

=C2=A0

Comments on the proposed FRUIT name?<= /o:p>

=C2=A0

Dave



_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@=
ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

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On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 6:21 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Waltermire, David A. (Fed) wrote: > > Kathleen, Dave, and I met earlier today to discuss the charter and the way > > forward. This email includes updated charter text and milestones, and a brief > > description of the changes we have made based on the input from the mailing > > list. > > Thank you, I have no significant objections to the text, and if we went ahead > as-is, I'd consider my nitpick comments below to be in the rough. > > > In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely: > > * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the > > involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. > > > * One or more manifest format specifications. > > Do you want to change, "namely" to "including", such that the chairs can > decide how/if we are creating a seperate requirements document (which the > IESG is not keen on anymore), or simply having architecture and requirements > as part of another document? > > > The initial focus of this group will be development of the information model > > for the contents of a manifest. > > If this means YANG, please say so. > If it could be some other modelling language, then please say so. > If the idea is have just descriptive text, again, I'd like to know. > > (I'd prefer it to use YANG. > I'm not a YANG lawyer, I feel confident I could play one on TV now, and I > believe I might volunteer to write part of a document. The YANG->SID->CBOR > path is very close to being ready for prime time.) > > > Once there is general agreement on the > > contents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats such as > > CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode > > With the caveat that ASN.1 and CBOR are in difference categories. > ASN.1 <-> YANG information model > DER <-> CBOR serialization format > > > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and > > OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. > > As I said before, I'd like to know what this means from a concrete point of > view. What metrics might the IESG use to decide if we are succeeding? > ("Tell me how you'll measure me, and I'll tell you how I'll behave Liaisons should be sent when appropriate to inform related groups of progress or with potential issues to discuss. If issues bubble up to the IESG needing more than a WG chair liaison statement, then the IESG will be concerned. > > > Jul 2018 Calendar item: Second interoperability event at IETF 102. > > Mar 2018 Calendar item: First interoperability event at IETF 101. > > If we can get there by then, great. I'm doubtful. > > > Mar 2018 Adopt a manifest information model as a WG item. > > Mar 2018 Adopt initial manifest serialization format(s) as WG item(s). > > Jan 2018 Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. > > I don't know if the informational model or the requirements go in the architecture document. > I think that they do? This depends on how you scope the architecture document. Some really nice ones have come through the IESG recently that were very well received. The ones that seemed the most useful (at least to the IESG) were architecture documents that connected the various WG documents and documents outside of the WG and came late in the WG process. They are helpful documents that will live on and be useful to someone wanting to piece together the architecture for the protocol(s) with explicit pointers to documents. The requirements could be in such a draft and then the requirements could change as needed when the work evolves as opposed to a set of requirements that holds the WG to early requirements. I'd keep the information model separate, but that's me as an individual, not AD. The AD is here to support WG decisions and offer guidance. > > > Regards, > > Dave Waltermire and Dave Thaler > > Thanks, I really like the new text. Excellent. Nice work, everyone! Thank you, Kathleen > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > -- Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Tue Dec 5 11:34:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C436126C2F for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 11:34:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oVny5rcCTh0l for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 11:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 321EC124B09 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 11:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555C520072; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B641C83C61; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:34:21 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Kathleen Moriarty cc: "suit\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <29584.1512429714@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Updated Charter Text and Way Forward X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 19:34:25 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and >> > OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. >> >> As I said before, I'd like to know what this means from a concrete point of >> view. What metrics might the IESG use to decide if we are succeeding? >> ("Tell me how you'll measure me, and I'll tell you how I'll behave > Liaisons should be sent when appropriate to inform related groups of > progress or with potential issues to discuss. If issues bubble up to > the IESG needing more than a WG chair liaison statement, then the IESG > will be concerned. The Liason process has always seemed very formal; I suspect that this is because we mostly liason with other entities (so-called SDOs) that do not really recognize individuals. I think that the liason system is not a good way to keep in touch with silicon vendors and OEMs. I am taking this to mean that we need to reach into the places that they communicate and talk. Ones that are relatively close (due to shared people) might include Fairhair, Thread, OCF, OIC, and IOTSF. I'm sure that ARM has some kind of conference or meeting that Hannes can tell us about.... I'd like to see us deputize someone (maybe Hannes) to socialize things there. Kathleen, so you told us about metrics that if non-zero would alarm the IESG. (Things that WG chairs could not deal with). But what metrics would the IESG use to know if we were doing a good job here? > This depends on how you scope the architecture document. Some really > nice ones have come through the IESG recently that were very well > received. The ones that seemed the most useful (at least to the IESG) > were architecture documents that connected the various WG documents > and documents outside of the WG and came late in the WG process. I also like such documents. Can you point to specific examples here? I think that they should be started now, be maintained as we go, and should get published last. The work on it should be specifically iterative, and not waterfall in nature. > They > are helpful documents that will live on and be useful to someone > wanting to piece together the architecture for the protocol(s) with > explicit pointers to documents. The requirements could be in such a > draft and then the requirements could change as needed when the work > evolves as opposed to a set of requirements that holds the WG to early > requirements. +1 > I'd keep the information model separate, but that's me as an > individual, not AD. The AD is here to support WG decisions and offer > guidance. I think that this is reasonable, but is not reflected in the milestones. Should I suggest some radical changes to the milestones, or shall I wait for chartering? I think we are not on the agenda for the telechat on the 14th anymore? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlom9L0ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXMiQf/Xxb70/RJA4U+gW1Kj1Zn1Gm7lGAYHpQl5kmgZlo1JX2MIin7w0S8bDFe QouSis01tL6WAXdCRxGDaE4D5Fj2EFr0rCMruvXiB17KV4C3U6e70mWqnjzI/kQf Cy5uoNhd4a8VWrB6UdirGqT4Hmzjt9TaRqJHzvCX+aJ1VZdEsX2oik8Wk+8klrN6 GO5ySuR6qA2dNCtLfF37k3F3CKHI9rcFWLZiPYcp6jls1nbjWPsM7eWt+fCSv+1a Pr+u9kxacmSniQ+LtwRd5EsCN5W+dXmjYibmMFsyb6LxPraU0ZYh9L5U+2kOHMh9 fJopxUQX893u6JF26y15vSblXE3MPg== =1iDN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Dec 5 12:19:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A04C4127869 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:19:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s1FUWI7fLwQl for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x233.google.com (mail-pg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46C261270AC for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:19:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x233.google.com with SMTP id m25so935080pgv.12 for ; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 12:19:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XTYegSwCLuO7f/PGfjk629TLeaKHqkmnWTE9l86ehiE=; b=Rrt2HL1APuT4KYqEQpSb9G7Zbbo2lmXcnv7z9Au7Gebixi6K2jvjIu9M8ZwjOrRuXO AYKV28FrQn+QCAfT6Z2Rt7X1OiOI+iB6N4RCPmaiXJN09QDxvsv/RpEfdQUlXxDYLSnX k3kijjs2Q8xl2tkHMuULPhhaUJ8xS2fl9QEKpYBg9A/MasX6kAih47u6+Dk/Uc7jomDC ZA5BrUho5UQa/LDTSxatQuryWPllbMH0mdVxnpkGKlotAbkpvn/BczHNTsHEKYYkSLjl PCuu19dJeZy/GeKcATMaIHF9Q+r5KeJCGjpcXdn31cQHubRtToHCRH/oPOOJTGIlo3ZT gojw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XTYegSwCLuO7f/PGfjk629TLeaKHqkmnWTE9l86ehiE=; b=N+qxuEJaClvv4XaUgIEgFgZ76zwo2nJijtMiltsLQOvV+rQRqA3FNCc0mmEEFmCimX MoylV6wEQd5M7j3hnNfcx8lyxCO5L2eC/E2gs7PqV8K6QrsH4Cmcid1Y3SSxg21QegZk ve/JNot4KuBTqtyvfgYOD+uL1MMxS59fwNszkLtfEzcXhe9NYeOCqaoUHBD4pIcPd10w kLxO/yW6XVzUwTMmgP95K3aGOS3zUUhQIgNsMvKL8gom+5/E1f6pPh83alBZ/gi4kVfp LZMfKSrsCSPOJiLRraLifthP2MGppXdmx2OA6EtOO3vAqDznsDE5l1IdBL1XvRZ7Qr+V vdBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX75wtihEeeDguRlBvp001QRiRLABMTu9OjI6rk5ejPe5JbFgoI6 QOqFs+DRJTarqfyjp3BpJ+75H56QDN1r6EYL5gwgjw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYNNnO8xQflxCe2jYa9JnbeCOxchSLmR+bADTWUlO1H27VuFyrmnGdldhG1yUu5uO2Re1SoDkn2Ca6ED9T7Prk= X-Received: by 10.84.172.195 with SMTP id n61mr19035262plb.78.1512505151513; Tue, 05 Dec 2017 12:19:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.208 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:18:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <21682.1512502461@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <29584.1512429714@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <21682.1512502461@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 15:18:30 -0500 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Updated Charter Text and Way Forward X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 20:19:14 -0000 Hi Michael, On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > >> > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and > >> > OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. > >> > >> As I said before, I'd like to know what this means from a concrete point of > >> view. What metrics might the IESG use to decide if we are succeeding? > >> ("Tell me how you'll measure me, and I'll tell you how I'll behave > > > Liaisons should be sent when appropriate to inform related groups of > > progress or with potential issues to discuss. If issues bubble up to > > the IESG needing more than a WG chair liaison statement, then the IESG > > will be concerned. > > The Liason process has always seemed very formal; I suspect that this is > because we mostly liason with other entities (so-called SDOs) that do not > really recognize individuals. > > I think that the liason system is not a good way to keep in touch with > silicon vendors and OEMs. I am taking this to mean that we need to reach > into the places that they communicate and talk. Ones that are relatively > close (due to shared people) might include Fairhair, Thread, OCF, OIC, and > IOTSF. I'm sure that ARM has some kind of conference or meeting that Hannes > can tell us about.... I'd like to see us deputize someone (maybe Hannes) to > socialize things there. Good point, thank you. I was mainly thinking about the BoF discussion on GP in this response. > > Kathleen, so you told us about metrics that if non-zero would alarm the IESG. > (Things that WG chairs could not deal with). > But what metrics would the IESG use to know if we were doing a good job here? Meeting milestones and staying within the charter (or altered charter) of work is the first metric. The IESG is also concerns with working groups that spin there wheels in bike shed arguments for too long. So, if the WG gets hung up on format prioritization or something similar, this will raise a concern. If the WG makes decisions, they should not be revisited at a high frequency, but rather clearly documented for reference so the WG can continue based on that agreement. I have spoken to the BoF chairs about this already and have some strategies to assist with this goal of being productive. Producing useful and implemented specs is also a measure of success - probably the most important one. I'm partial to having them documented in CodeStand.ietf.org as it will be integrated with the tracker soon and you'll be able to see how many implementations there are for any draft or RFC if used consistently. > > > This depends on how you scope the architecture document. Some really > > nice ones have come through the IESG recently that were very well > > received. The ones that seemed the most useful (at least to the IESG) > > were architecture documents that connected the various WG documents > > and documents outside of the WG and came late in the WG process. > > I also like such documents. > Can you point to specific examples here? Sure, and I meant to do that. The RTCweb one was received extremely well. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview/> > I think that they should be started now, be maintained as we go, and should > get published last. The work on it should be specifically iterative, and > not waterfall in nature. Agreed. > > > They > > are helpful documents that will live on and be useful to someone > > wanting to piece together the architecture for the protocol(s) with > > explicit pointers to documents. The requirements could be in such a > > draft and then the requirements could change as needed when the work > > evolves as opposed to a set of requirements that holds the WG to early > > requirements. > > +1 > > > I'd keep the information model separate, but that's me as an > > individual, not AD. The AD is here to support WG decisions and offer > > guidance. > > I think that this is reasonable, but is not reflected in the milestones. > Should I suggest some radical changes to the milestones, or shall I wait for > chartering? Suggest away, it would be good to get agreement on these and see what the BoF chairs and list participants have to say. > > I think we are not on the agenda for the telechat on the 14th anymore? As of right now, it is still reasonable per the timeline Dave posted. If there is agreement, why hold things up? I'll post the updated text to the datatracker in the next day or so and make edits as needed. We could then send out the charter to the announce lists for external reviewers as well, giving them another week to review and comment. I don't think any of the charter changes were radical. Best regards, Kathleen > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > -- Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Tue Dec 5 16:54:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135351279EB for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:54:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y0DF0Qs59Rwm for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BFE01273E2 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:77]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 290DF58C5CD; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:53:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 1209AB0D392; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:53:55 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:53:55 +0100 From: Toerless Eckert To: Dave Thaler Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20171206005355.GD1942@faui40p.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 00:54:03 -0000 Suspicions about the geek nature of participants make me think this is just a trick to get a more funny WG name, but i ca not find a flaw in your argument. On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:51:54PM +0000, Dave Thaler wrote: > One of the discussions we had during the BoF was about the relationship between SUIT and TEEP, > and there was consensus that SUIT would focus on "firmware" used for boot, as opposed to > "applications" that could be installed later which was the focus of TEEP. As such, I believe > we said that the term "firmware" was more precise for SUIT than "software" in general. > > So when Dave W. and I did the latest edits that he just sent out, the text is careful to always use the > term "firmware" when it's talking about what's in scope, and "software" is only used in more generic > text (e.g., about what's NOT in scope), etc. > > The last remaining use is in the BoF title "Software Update for the Internet of Things (SUIT)". > We discussed possible alternatives, and would like to suggest the name > > FiRmware Update for the Internet of Things (FRUIT) > > We believe this change (s/Software/FiRmware/) would be more consistent with the charter text > and the consensus of the BoF and the list. It's also important for all to understand that, even if > the mailing list name changes, the full email archive would be kept and moved to the new list, > so email history is not a blocker. > > Comments on the proposed FRUIT name? > > Dave > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit From nobody Tue Dec 5 18:16:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D2B128C82 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:16:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PG3d54YTx-Oa for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:16:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-edgeKA27.fraunhofer.de (mail-edgeka27.fraunhofer.de [153.96.1.27]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDC77128B51 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:16:49 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A2GdAwBp299Z/xoHYZleHAEBBAEBCgEBg11kA2snB44SjzKBSyuWLw6CBAoYC4FegzoChD8/GAECAQEBAQEBAQNoKIJqRiwBAQEBAQFPAj4tAQEEAQEwAQU2BBcLDgouJzAGAQwGAgEBihkBBAyuCYs8AQEBAQYBAQEBAQEdBYMtggeBUYFqK4J/hFIBCwcBhhMFihyHKo9+gQiBJpRQgXSHVQWHLoohix0CBAYFAhkBgTkfOYEDC1MmMyqFGhyBaHWJEw8YgQwBgRABAQE X-IPAS-Result: A2GdAwBp299Z/xoHYZleHAEBBAEBCgEBg11kA2snB44SjzKBSyuWLw6CBAoYC4FegzoChD8/GAECAQEBAQEBAQNoKIJqRiwBAQEBAQFPAj4tAQEEAQEwAQU2BBcLDgouJzAGAQwGAgEBihkBBAyuCYs8AQEBAQYBAQEBAQEdBYMtggeBUYFqK4J/hFIBCwcBhhMFihyHKo9+gQiBJpRQgXSHVQWHLoohix0CBAYFAhkBgTkfOYEDC1MmMyqFGhyBaHWJEw8YgQwBgRABAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.43,368,1503352800"; d="scan'208";a="1701530" Received: from mail-mtas26.fraunhofer.de ([153.97.7.26]) by mail-edgeKA27.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 06 Dec 2017 03:16:48 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.45,366,1508796000"; d="scan'208";a="5628781" X-IronPort-Outbreak-Status: No, level 0, Unknown - Unknown Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de ([141.12.72.89]) by mail-mtaS26.fraunhofer.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 06 Dec 2017 03:16:46 +0100 Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-4.1ubuntu1) with ESMTP id vB62Gi64004207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 6 Dec 2017 03:16:45 +0100 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (134.102.43.163) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.361.1; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 03:16:39 +0100 To: Dave Thaler , "suit@ietf.org" References: From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <41e1e365-455b-15ba-4f57-c236831452d5@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 03:16:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.43.163] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 02:16:54 -0000 Hello, there seem to be a lot of pros and cons, but as Kathleen highlighted "search results provided by a search engine" seems not to be a deciding factor here, I think. Instead, I would like to raise a pair of individually selected pro&con: Pro: The name FirmwareUIT will probably create a better demarcation line - wrt the initial proposal of Hannes - between two potential WG, which helps associating contributions with the right working group (i.e. firmware vs. applications). Con: We are starting to differentiate firmware and software. This is done in a lot of places... and does not always makes sense in a lot of places also, I think. In consequence, this approach probably requires a useful definition of firmware that distinguishes it from any other kind of software (otherwise software - or, in extension of that term, applications or apps - will also be in scope of the manifest at some point, I assume). I.e., one vital question seems to be: Is this correct? 1.) firmware is limited to the "booting of a thing" 2.) software is about the scope of every other software that is not about the "booting of a thing". If so, FRUIT it is. If not, stay with SUIT, I guess. Any comments on trying to provide a more focused decision point here? Viele Grüße, Henk p.s. I realize that this is just a discussion about how to name a WG... On 12/05/2017 12:51 AM, Dave Thaler wrote: > One of the discussions we had during the BoF was about the relationship > between SUIT and TEEP, > and there was consensus that SUIT would focus on “firmware” used for > boot, as opposed to > > “applications” that could be installed later which was the focus of > TEEP.   As such, I believe > > we said that the term “firmware” was more precise for SUIT than > “software” in general. > > So when Dave W. and I did the latest edits that he just sent out, the > text is careful to always use the > > term “firmware” when it’s talking about what’s in scope, and “software” > is only used in more generic > > text (e.g., about what’s NOT in scope), etc. > > The last remaining use is in the BoF title “Software Update for the > Internet of Things (SUIT)”. > > We discussed possible alternatives, and would like to suggest the name > > FiRmware Update for the Internet of Things (FRUIT) > > We believe this change (s/Software/FiRmware/) would be more consistent > with the charter text > > and the consensus of the BoF and the list.    It’s also important for > all to understand that, even if > > the mailing list name changes, the full email archive would be kept and > moved to the new list, > > so email history is not a blocker. > > Comments on the proposed FRUIT name? > > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > From nobody Tue Dec 5 23:15:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5B5124D37 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 23:15:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q8r-QlI2B4lX for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 23:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0A9F124B18 for ; Tue, 5 Dec 2017 23:15:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::b]) by mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id vB67FfVc007442; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:15:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from client-0128.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0128.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.128]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by submithost.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3ys8z056d4zDX6D; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:15:40 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <41e1e365-455b-15ba-4f57-c236831452d5@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:15:35 +0100 Cc: "suit@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 534237335.610227-b735de10135d8c25443661a8ec5b268f Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71ACF7B4-EC73-4F19-84B7-F681BCF288DE@tzi.org> References: <41e1e365-455b-15ba-4f57-c236831452d5@sit.fraunhofer.de> To: Henk Birkholz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 07:15:47 -0000 On Dec 6, 2017, at 03:16, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > p.s. I realize that this is just a discussion about how to name a = WG=E2=80=A6 Indeed. The protocols we create do not have to (and probably should = not) be named after the WG name, and those are what will mostly be = searched for. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Wed Dec 6 00:43:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88CB51241FC for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 00:43:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.8, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=armh.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lfej7GbuF_Pd for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 00:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com 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boundary="_000_BE0B8771ECCE49FCB891D38DCFDD59ADarmcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 44a61e7c-ede4-44e3-33c6-08d53c856a58 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Dec 2017 08:43:25.4494 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5PR08MB0614 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 08:43:32 -0000 --_000_BE0B8771ECCE49FCB891D38DCFDD59ADarmcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSB2ZXJ5IG11Y2ggcHJlZmVyIFNVSVQgdG8gRlJVSVQuIEkgZmVlbCB0aGF0IGl0IGlzIHJlYXNv 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--_000_BE0B8771ECCE49FCB891D38DCFDD59ADarmcom_-- From nobody Wed Dec 6 07:00:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AD18126DD9 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:00:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3brxQXora68P for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C9BA128BBB for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:00:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:cae:753c:b3be:28d0]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA69E1F91F; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 15:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 1407835E1; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 09:59:08 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Brendan Moran cc: Eliot Lear , "suit\@ietf.org" , Dave Thaler In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Brendan Moran message dated "Wed, 06 Dec 2017 08:43:25 +0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 09:59:08 -0500 Message-ID: <25032.1512572348@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 15:00:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Brendan Moran wrote: > I very much prefer SUIT to FRUIT. I feel that it is reasonable to > take some artistic license in the terminology when constructing an > acronym for a working group. However, if the WG name really must > contain "firmware" instead of "software," may I suggest: I agree, SUIT is just fine, but if we must change: > ENUF: Embedded Network-Updatable Firmware That's cool. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJaKAW7AAoJEJVM4Vb9/EKQPQUH/1a0QN4GebQG+IvHs5vV50EC HC4SozYLZefSE3DsPOmEZBPB2A3QzGryiT1/+juxrccAiqpOPw7vxhdJ/kegP5Yk t8LQ6NexMbU0E6pgLNqdIiIj8bH3EGSvmGpBf3QOsxUJIaf91a3UWs3PTc90H1T/ WJpMqFQ65r80IYL/LtgbqYIG9OHB13xdXWmjqUuGoU/zwU1TswS3N3Jo5y8FVgwG 4ZYKa+btGOc8iyTH/dV9ll66aIVV2B8mlYOm+zHgz1QxFdMFJsZ8QeGRh0QGiC62 ka7d41lvcBqYiQVeIr+nTx4AjnwcjitODGpKGUXiS8+ghsbN9lVy+0RsuY1qyZU= =JRLT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Dec 6 07:28:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE1C1274D2 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:27:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fPbUI7UVlUeP for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95CA2120725 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 07:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.32.60.148] (50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.14.9) with ESMTPSA id vB6FQLwe001462 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:26:23 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-141.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.141] claimed to be [10.32.60.148] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Carsten Bormann" Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 07:27:55 -0800 Message-ID: <04A3BEBB-D316-4E3E-8119-FFC45B8BC1DD@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <71ACF7B4-EC73-4F19-84B7-F681BCF288DE@tzi.org> References: <41e1e365-455b-15ba-4f57-c236831452d5@sit.fraunhofer.de> <71ACF7B4-EC73-4F19-84B7-F681BCF288DE@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: MailMate (1.9.7r5425) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 15:28:00 -0000 On 5 Dec 2017, at 23:15, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On Dec 6, 2017, at 03:16, Henk Birkholz > wrote: >> >> p.s. I realize that this is just a discussion about how to name a >> WG… > > Indeed. The protocols we create do not have to (and probably should > not) be named after the WG name, and those are what will mostly be > searched for. ...initially. The IETF has a long history of WG names that overlap with English (and sometimes French) words, and people end up searching by RFC number. It is unlikely that someone who is developing IoT software will say "I need to find the format for manifests, they came from something called FRUIT, I couldn't find it in Google, so I will not develop this software". Basically anyone who knows that FRUIT is/was part of the IETF will search for "ietf fruit" and will find what they are looking for. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Wed Dec 6 08:24:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28658127444 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:24:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dUsReNdSpOn9 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1643E12741D for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 08:24:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F203005E0 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 11:24:13 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ewZn99Obd73N for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 11:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.home (pool-108-45-101-150.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.45.101.150]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 97B643002C6 for ; Wed, 6 Dec 2017 11:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 11:24:12 -0500 References: <41e1e365-455b-15ba-4f57-c236831452d5@sit.fraunhofer.de> <71ACF7B4-EC73-4F19-84B7-F681BCF288DE@tzi.org> To: "suit@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <71ACF7B4-EC73-4F19-84B7-F681BCF288DE@tzi.org> Message-Id: <81F0D8FE-2E19-47B1-A0F8-329AF1D41FE4@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 16:24:15 -0000 I am not thrilled to have the name changed again. It started as FUD, = then became SUIT. That said, I can see the reason to go back to = something that begins with "F". How about FWLOAD? Russ From nobody Thu Dec 7 00:17:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7F6126C26 for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 00:17:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.199, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tAQLGbRNw6_l for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 00:17:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x232.google.com (mail-vk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8EB2126C0F for ; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 00:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id n63so4370734vkf.2 for ; Thu, 07 Dec 2017 00:17:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=QM1KJ8ct02XXWFZAjcdQXeYugyHGHKvljR+3jq7vY8o=; b=rHdvJe8nrlml+YQSRCQdzw9NiRLkymmGtCRRC4yoAqt8vdA1umD0mOXGDDXTYKUpIV PAIAhQCwGzQB99QvQ4Ly4kucMzqkw5u0ZDhRNsXoql5XX8wW6TtBVwtCfYvgkvbYaQnw hz/bEtoSonG6dsXU+53F3UIDIiVw7vbJEPPBthH5TFlydf3ynXkbx/zmo0uTLOgPvABo U9cfrgDjv0rZweOCJkoyLnfUOIY6u87ASUfxrVkF7OTUUasOghs+rkTPlaeX+KbdiCca cZ1nNmCpZ6oXeqj+zGNGr70Pit7GDLQt6kEhoiwCEFUp58iFdJhZBtPBGeKusOOUYWXK tflA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=QM1KJ8ct02XXWFZAjcdQXeYugyHGHKvljR+3jq7vY8o=; b=SpUObixdJUMm2khYhJ/h1enTg8cONStZ29Nj7FkejHQ5YBq26SXvtgcO+XMQd9oLwk PY+/ERNOhBOh7VrLNMv1rr2aHsqKcALYcTtlz5PHMMav7Ou80Ga/IxIS9yxdbtisDEI+ P05/AiKWm0BWznNIYly0djBk6K2cdqfRdYcYnmdTIdYq8CUtVHCSQ4pvgHCnAdx3RVLb Es2cjvN2k0znnSvEJoK/FfsfiDx2kboXeZNzQjGcV3alG6h2QpJv2dILTbhMDtH1OAnK rVVZw7YMew5gq294hNhlFqBhHKUy+ObsMGuHEl1GQ+l3kDd9byLWqrf8dhOfStCh0urJ i7Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mILryQK1DsbiRjTWWzgjAV+ZyAnA0YBdyu11RD2NlaaJomVstcR HzXDip066JK1q4n1n20aBl+5J9QeyH91OqAjzcg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYsXUBz1ZiEjlfTbFZ1jtUfe3bjyGzKgEXZUp9du5U/fYrEKMNAijAshAJYRrH+tn/PEP/kM0tU7oQ/wwU5A30= X-Received: by 10.31.216.129 with SMTP id p123mr12530919vkg.71.1512634643635; Thu, 07 Dec 2017 00:17:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: emmanuel.baccelli@gmail.com Received: by 10.159.40.41 with HTTP; Thu, 7 Dec 2017 00:17:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <81F0D8FE-2E19-47B1-A0F8-329AF1D41FE4@vigilsec.com> References: <41e1e365-455b-15ba-4f57-c236831452d5@sit.fraunhofer.de> <71ACF7B4-EC73-4F19-84B7-F681BCF288DE@tzi.org> <81F0D8FE-2E19-47B1-A0F8-329AF1D41FE4@vigilsec.com> From: Emmanuel Baccelli Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:17:03 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: q9ALuM86CXKIHPv0h5LiunBlLBY Message-ID: To: "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114ef4ae9be35b055fbbb299" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 08:17:27 -0000 --001a114ef4ae9be35b055fbbb299 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I like FRUIT. That said, SUIT remains suitable. If a clearer distinction is needed between software vs firmware on those devices, we could/should allocate some space for that in one of the WG docs, e.g. the architecture document? Emmanuel On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Russ Housley wrote: > I am not thrilled to have the name changed again. It started as FUD, then > became SUIT. That said, I can see the reason to go back to something that > begins with "F". > > How about FWLOAD? > > Russ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > --001a114ef4ae9be35b055fbbb299 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I like FRUIT. That said, SUIT remains suitable.

If a clearer distinction is needed between software vs firmware on those= devices,=C2=A0
we could/should allocate some space for that in o= ne of the WG docs, e.g. the architecture document?

=
Emmanuel





O= n Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com= > wrote:
I am not thrilled to h= ave the name changed again.=C2=A0 It started as FUD, then became SUIT.=C2= =A0 That said, I can see the reason to go back to something that begins wit= h "F".

How about FWLOAD?

Russ



_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

--001a114ef4ae9be35b055fbbb299-- From nobody Fri Dec 8 12:07:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7335B127076 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 12:07:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LddVQiB6-K9G for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 12:07:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x231.google.com (mail-pg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46D09126BF7 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 12:07:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x231.google.com with SMTP id m25so7532006pgv.12 for ; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:07:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Hjl3HGx1UpYWnzHUhFWQeB/sQDkSNAN71AL2y+vtGmk=; b=KlKyq/w1xeCW5HTWl0whOZgmp9NMxskFO70HUPJn0cPoIuUN7if1JbzAEBmrzTS+vh 0BRgVIbFB34eb/eb+qyjdDYIrJX90YjPV3QM9uok6d/gAdszqDfrUVolWPA9n4kAYulJ Kq8J0WZpMzRW3TQ1SGOCHnm98R6QgLGY785nTCGXgD2E9UtCX85pcRKDrEIXDThLiqbR dRjlZ3e/AT673ePmLMi2eiu1SzD5q87tz9T6ZxsmU34kjFfViPfHEfLexaHdi9qe4F2t Aa1WdTtXeWQ9Cf0DiQ+PdH8uXMwGUposiHAfnRwT6kvq5CHmlmq/Hiydj98O9mwuwerF DtZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Hjl3HGx1UpYWnzHUhFWQeB/sQDkSNAN71AL2y+vtGmk=; b=cy+Y0S5h7jYislSLKanFD3k6/A3nSAlSnPGeExpQ3ZEmM5ZEPdU6HbEMq5V8Y3tq08 iz+/l2zZqbt+FEkliUHHYjLP+8dPCt0Q4bqr7TtI5qmMsmtZ3F8ykNaHoHADO2T0wSxU hc0Ont+oyQjGFCDAlc6O9lHV4umxqduak69I5FU3iI7erxflT8mvqxkuSg0hkMOJZieF v4qWbnhuA4MYVm4eR+snX4LhpwrAbAby7I0Cbe2mlCsnLV3KAbNxyodMaJQXRHUt2YcZ UmRUX80z8JfLtYiQghQzRRzZe7F8NpEE46LKxP0XZYlUv2Zqo5AWbOnOEeEv69HNvpXU akYQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5ygQGwjLuV9qK8HHpqjomE4jc+6KY6+6Zvj9nUe6DCnFx1ueWO MHkeumm4xO8bo0PUON6AWxL3hsRdbFaHahKksk8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGs4zMYwDg5rx7Bj8aJCFIz01BMiTUOoLqV5pyoSUnYinEpgPOEqyFQEhJpNrBIyCGRxW/Mub4B1qhvA0mxq/v/SIJA= X-Received: by 10.84.173.1 with SMTP id o1mr32127928plb.135.1512763660751; Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:07:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.208 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 12:07:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <29584.1512429714@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <21682.1512502461@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:07:00 -0500 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Updated Charter Text and Way Forward X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 20:07:43 -0000 The updated charter text is now posted as version 9 on the datatracker for review: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ The milestones will be updated in the next few minutes. Best regards, Kathleen On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > Hi Michael, > > On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Michael Richardson > wrote: >> >> Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> >> > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and >> >> > OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. >> >> >> >> As I said before, I'd like to know what this means from a concrete point of >> >> view. What metrics might the IESG use to decide if we are succeeding? >> >> ("Tell me how you'll measure me, and I'll tell you how I'll behave >> >> > Liaisons should be sent when appropriate to inform related groups of >> > progress or with potential issues to discuss. If issues bubble up to >> > the IESG needing more than a WG chair liaison statement, then the IESG >> > will be concerned. >> >> The Liason process has always seemed very formal; I suspect that this is >> because we mostly liason with other entities (so-called SDOs) that do not >> really recognize individuals. >> >> I think that the liason system is not a good way to keep in touch with >> silicon vendors and OEMs. I am taking this to mean that we need to reach >> into the places that they communicate and talk. Ones that are relatively >> close (due to shared people) might include Fairhair, Thread, OCF, OIC, and >> IOTSF. I'm sure that ARM has some kind of conference or meeting that Hannes >> can tell us about.... I'd like to see us deputize someone (maybe Hannes) to >> socialize things there. > > Good point, thank you. I was mainly thinking about the BoF discussion > on GP in this response. > >> >> Kathleen, so you told us about metrics that if non-zero would alarm the IESG. >> (Things that WG chairs could not deal with). >> But what metrics would the IESG use to know if we were doing a good job here? > > Meeting milestones and staying within the charter (or altered charter) > of work is the first metric. The IESG is also concerns with working > groups that spin there wheels in bike shed arguments for too long. > So, if the WG gets hung up on format prioritization or something > similar, this will raise a concern. If the WG makes decisions, they > should not be revisited at a high frequency, but rather clearly > documented for reference so the WG can continue based on that > agreement. I have spoken to the BoF chairs about this already and > have some strategies to assist with this goal of being productive. > > Producing useful and implemented specs is also a measure of success - > probably the most important one. I'm partial to having them > documented in CodeStand.ietf.org as it will be integrated with the > tracker soon and you'll be able to see how many implementations there > are for any draft or RFC if used consistently. > >> >> > This depends on how you scope the architecture document. Some really >> > nice ones have come through the IESG recently that were very well >> > received. The ones that seemed the most useful (at least to the IESG) >> > were architecture documents that connected the various WG documents >> > and documents outside of the WG and came late in the WG process. >> >> I also like such documents. >> Can you point to specific examples here? > > Sure, and I meant to do that. The RTCweb one was received extremely well. > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview/> > >> I think that they should be started now, be maintained as we go, and should >> get published last. The work on it should be specifically iterative, and >> not waterfall in nature. > > Agreed. > >> >> > They >> > are helpful documents that will live on and be useful to someone >> > wanting to piece together the architecture for the protocol(s) with >> > explicit pointers to documents. The requirements could be in such a >> > draft and then the requirements could change as needed when the work >> > evolves as opposed to a set of requirements that holds the WG to early >> > requirements. >> >> +1 >> >> > I'd keep the information model separate, but that's me as an >> > individual, not AD. The AD is here to support WG decisions and offer >> > guidance. >> >> I think that this is reasonable, but is not reflected in the milestones. >> Should I suggest some radical changes to the milestones, or shall I wait for >> chartering? > > Suggest away, it would be good to get agreement on these and see what > the BoF chairs and list participants have to say. > >> >> I think we are not on the agenda for the telechat on the 14th anymore? > > As of right now, it is still reasonable per the timeline Dave posted. > If there is agreement, why hold things up? I'll post the updated text > to the datatracker in the next day or so and make edits as needed. We > could then send out the charter to the announce lists for external > reviewers as well, giving them another week to review and comment. > > I don't think any of the charter changes were radical. > > Best regards, > Kathleen > >> >> -- >> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- >> >> >> > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen -- Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Fri Dec 8 12:44:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietf.org Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B10DE12009C; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 12:44:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF Announcement List" Cc: suit@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.67.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: <151276589370.5866.16698906941523120152.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 12:44:53 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Review: Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 20:44:54 -0000 The draft charter for the proposed Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) WG underwent a few revisions during the external review process. The current version of the charter is -09, below. The charter is on the IESG agenda for 2017-12-14. -- charter-ietf-suit-00-09 Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for constrained devices. Security experts, researchers, and regulators recommend that all IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism. While there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, there is a lack of a modern interoperable approach of securely updating the firmware in IoT devices. In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', and RFC 8240 documents various requirements and challenges that are specific to IoT devices. A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: * A mechanism to transport firmware images to compatible devices. * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion. * The firmware image itself. This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution (taking into account past learnings from RFC 4108 and other firmware update solutions) that will be usable on Class 1 (as defined in RFC 7228) devices, i.e., devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more capable devices as well. This group will not define any new transport or discovery mechanisms, but may describe how to use existing mechanisms within the architecture. In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely: * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. * One or more manifest format specifications. The initial focus of this group will be development of the information model for the contents of a manifest. Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats such as CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest. A small number of formats is preferred to reduce the complexity of a firmware management solution, where each IoT device would typically only support one format, but the same tool or service might support all such formats. To support a wide range of deployment scenarios, the formats are expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of different firmware sources and permission models. This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic application software update mechanism, but instead this group will focus on firmware development practices in the embedded industry. Software update solutions that target updating software other than the firmware binaries (e.g., applications) are also out of scope. This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. Proposed milestones Date Milestone Nov 2018 Submit an initial manifest serialization format to the IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard. Jul 2018 Submit manifest information model to the IESG for publication as Informational. Jul 2018 Calendar item: Second interoperability event at IETF 102. Mar 2018 Adopt initial manifest serialization format(s) as WG item(s). Mar 2018 Calendar item: First interoperability event at IETF 101. Mar 2018 Adopt a manifest information model as a WG item. Jan 2018 Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. On Nov 3, 2017, at 9:32 AM, The IESG wrote: > The Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) WG in the Security > Area of the IETF is undergoing rechartering. The IESG has not made any > determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is > provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to > the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2017-11-13. > > Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Current status: BOF WG > > Chairs: > Dave Thaler > David Waltermire > Russ Housley > > Assigned Area Director: > Kathleen Moriarty > > Security Area Directors: > Kathleen Moriarty > Eric Rescorla > > Mailing list: > Address: suit@ietf.org > To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=suit > > Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/suit/ > > Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ From nobody Fri Dec 8 16:06:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1B4D120227 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 16:06:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EnOalprkmtX4 for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 16:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C8741200CF for ; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 16:06:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BC320090; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 19:09:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47078067D; Fri, 8 Dec 2017 19:06:13 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Kathleen Moriarty cc: "suit@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <29584.1512429714@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <21682.1512502461@obiwan.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7-RC3; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 19:06:13 -0500 Message-ID: <13951.1512777973@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Updated Charter Text and Way Forward X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 00:06:18 -0000 Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > The updated charter text is now posted as version 9 on the datatrack= er > for review: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ Looks good. Still some wrapping problems with the point form, but meh. I think that I missed the message in between, but that's okay. >>> > This depends on how you scope the architecture document. Some r= eally >>> > nice ones have come through the IESG recently that were very wel= l >>> > received. The ones that seemed the most useful (at least to the= IESG) >>> > were architecture documents that connected the various WG docume= nts >>> > and documents outside of the WG and came late in the WG process. >>> >>> I also like such documents. >>> Can you point to specific examples here? >> >> Sure, and I meant to do that. The RTCweb one was received extremel= y well. >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-overview/> Thanks! >>> I think that this is reasonable, but is not reflected in the miles= tones. >>> Should I suggest some radical changes to the milestones, or shall = I wait for >>> chartering? >> >> Suggest away, it would be good to get agreement on these and see wh= at >> the BoF chairs and list participants have to say. >> >>> >>> I think we are not on the agenda for the telechat on the 14th anym= ore? >> >> As of right now, it is still reasonable per the timeline Dave poste= d. >> If there is agreement, why hold things up? I'll post the updated t= ext >> to the datatracker in the next day or so and make edits as needed. = We >> could then send out the charter to the announce lists for external >> reviewers as well, giving them another week to review and comment. >> >> I don't think any of the charter changes were radical. okay! -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networ= ks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architec= t [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ From nobody Wed Dec 13 09:07:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C4D127863 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:07:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oLCi9cRGjgsu for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl0-x235.google.com (mail-pl0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 248401270B4 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl0-x235.google.com with SMTP id bi12so1348275plb.6 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:07:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ngNezEDUMTUVlNzdbbJsaoi8UMIH3wabruJxsxuIRGs=; b=BUBx6Tgrvowxh3EvhnVXQBLgBRttU9pBDwv8mX3R0EKailk5EIwzCu0vQvkzqLf3LB tGeotqyHqN3ERRcP7LoVXxNyKJornkJlY9osthJmtE6/ep1a7l1sjGmnmzGUubH4SEiG jpPoeGKbl1S7tVXsyuLFf7QKsnmmWIvnKmSnCbcBxu01Aq9qvvSm1Cx22LhqxG7Dqri/ +atFNYx/XnI/s+98rJ6Yfj9C/uatnQ34fAay1bBjA1cEop7N1XfThQoW2bsDJTaJwVp9 82+zDlRDh1gxAPJVsZg2Z/vbybbrx9BNdECe0oo299gjEIWfk+zB5DGQ5Un/HDMxjtw6 JPrQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ngNezEDUMTUVlNzdbbJsaoi8UMIH3wabruJxsxuIRGs=; b=ShyOngeC7vQibcK6FOEiSlXF6Vw/GG1m6cYitFgxFMA+fzbqfwCFWUcZPyYmnO0JBM pXvhStNi+ObWM517cyYUI43Z9I82FOpDtBdQMlIqIzmePjTJpi6BjSoVCuGSNonfMFS5 Wc7FnkarRZoHJr4wZ/TJuaaM1ycvQtZx6iLqXGBON1LTzOGxI2fEtOueD9SD2/45TbO8 8+7K2CdwS2DI3xnWd7XXfQpae3XdpU1CHbOoQs8UEgZlXAsXql/EhKc5eVnOfyIeS88i p630rDYTplM0Uf7fWA8/418WDBtMKw59C9Y/L2RiJBDA2G7nU8SKSR8m/USRNk/Fxlc9 8ITg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mJBIKgdWm+vbasH1C5a+2mX6Xp5Xjjy//GUtSTsFu9OL9vf5fv+ f4So7Mv4AQDEJTwnM1e7XERC8dYg/l/7RZ7zBe0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosDvNCY+eBziSjJ5o88GgEGUZZL1P3KvhmMoc6nF5/skvm7CooY1EWI6WPSzaS2INpe/nJ/We+mB3O9OceCZtM= X-Received: by 10.159.234.68 with SMTP id c4mr6478821plr.305.1513184840561; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:07:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.208 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:06:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <41e1e365-455b-15ba-4f57-c236831452d5@sit.fraunhofer.de> <71ACF7B4-EC73-4F19-84B7-F681BCF288DE@tzi.org> <81F0D8FE-2E19-47B1-A0F8-329AF1D41FE4@vigilsec.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 12:06:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Proposed WG name and software vs firmware X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 17:07:23 -0000 Hello, Thank you to those who weighed in on a possible name change. We'll leave the name as SUIT to avoid a name change since this was not conclusive and most were fine with SUIT. Best regards, Kathleen On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote: > I like FRUIT. That said, SUIT remains suitable. > > If a clearer distinction is needed between software vs firmware on those > devices, > we could/should allocate some space for that in one of the WG docs, e.g. the > architecture document? > > Emmanuel > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Russ Housley wrote: >> >> I am not thrilled to have the name changed again. It started as FUD, then >> became SUIT. That said, I can see the reason to go back to something that >> begins with "F". >> >> How about FWLOAD? >> >> Russ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Suit mailing list >> Suit@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > > > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > -- Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Wed Dec 13 09:29:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3139D1270B4 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:29:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.711 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.711 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N8ck_NdCIJYH for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:29:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x234.google.com (mail-ua0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA0D7126DFF for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:29:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x234.google.com with SMTP id l2so2102635uak.2 for ; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:29:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ak27B1FePd7PmuVINaeO1IhB2W7iT0Lq0fbO+FlpLKs=; b=YVIctYVZ5wHVE+GCTSy4qswkNQQZVCqArF4K0QEemneUkJhqbRPf3p7pOtm8IKbwd4 pMbxTiSmFSPp34C6WGz53xyzQSj/JKYiApUgZOzyjakUMBYNSHw45hXWm/WlDsz8Jru4 7ug62p0K570Uf+w02WHHNMQaNnwurT2kZetlBfVW/X4Q6H8ABWMfJRGsSjGiu36p2BpM 4U+EzCrUvx5KpmVcJF6L+hjeW0+Zpy4psZkwM+8fVmhXLg3QPSXKcEzj8SpDzt5LFRFl 0wUXuYaT6EJdo1GGA1NNeZnjDSeZrqgtpvUzOjfqiG5VZYvjhbb68mZrSTcjfzfiuKT3 9rxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ak27B1FePd7PmuVINaeO1IhB2W7iT0Lq0fbO+FlpLKs=; b=G+sZJgFLp6aY+YWHDb0bcEJgrZmMPjGXczbK+Uf37399kAq9AhBquFpVbpMZJRK4OM dJzagfYN4Tj6Iv9Y+yNoVh7CiIdzOktkZD4E5BlaDQABtoNqkbADIx8d8PtPkdMn/6yS 6tXp3snv+Vgi8YmTKWP1vgPK0WSR0NWO/PfEPIpHdxCqCyiS5FIThIejffMkhMzw3Nlx a46AAZqSb6zsU9+ouO/iop5Vj0gmZAwEebnf+fMNoGfmBB3RrDwr2yZTrNi1s9HzKH2w /zv/CV26VdrBSuiUscolkHCGCyCwT/sholxefXwC0990s0OR7EvgtJ68yWMDB8xUCOp1 +TTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKmEbmwRZicDh+JMP9N4kPphQdtp1JLmX0v7YYVSGgtKlYIlr5z XQXjV/SJoCv8USdTyAZKRA6frZISUzGTSM4TkL4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBovvV6/ROgR6eqkL//RbRyhz0eOovIgdRj8Knx2ArvUi/lSXKnSKvHul7Zx7MJHKxb4gf9hhyYpPsM05ixCM5Wk= X-Received: by 10.176.49.90 with SMTP id e26mr55205uam.17.1513186145854; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:29:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.33.194 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:29:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Suhas Nandakumar Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:29:05 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" Cc: "suit@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f4030437c7f4b3e7ee05603c1aac" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Updated Charter Text and Way Forward X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 17:29:11 -0000 --f4030437c7f4b3e7ee05603c1aac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Chairs Thanks chairs for sharing the updated charter. My apologies for delay in responding. I totally lost track of the deadline (my bad) Here are few concerns regarding the current charter text and would greatly appreciate if these can be discussed or taken into consideration by the chairs and the WG. Major Issue: Firmware update service discovery and mechanisms to download the firmware The current charter says " This group will not define any new transport or discovery mechanisms, but may describe how to use existing mechanisms within the architecture " Couple of points of concerns 1. From my recollection of BOF discussions, there was support to charter work to discover the firmware server, the manifest and using existing mechanisms to download the firmware image. 2. The strength of "may" in the current charter text and lacking explicit deliverable for this, makes one conclude such a work by the WG is optional. There are several deployments where the IoT device operating under restricted network access cannot reach out to the manufacturer's/OEM's website to download the firmware. Often one does not want to have a device with unpatched firmware using the open internet to contact the vendor's website to get a firmware update and instead a local firmware server is used to cache the firmware. One can expect to have local firmware server managed by the enterprise/factory to serve the firmware. Having charter make explicit provision for discovering such local server & locate the manifest (and firmware) on that server at a well-known location, as a WG deliverable, will be super beneficial and helps in a great deal towards building interoperable solution. To that extent, may i propose splitting the WG deliverables as below ( including some text suggestions posted by Michael as well, from https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/suit/current/msg00286.html) * One or more optional mechanisms will be described that use existing transport and discovery protocols to locate and transfer the firmware * The requirements for secure firmware upgrade will be documented * Define a general architecture the enables secure IoT firmware upgrade describing involved elements, security threats * An extensible data model that captures metadata and security properties about the firmware will be developed and codified in a manifest. * Define one or more encoding formats for the maifest Minor Issues Below are some of the issues which have been raised on the mailing list earlier and I haven=E2=80=99t heard consensus either in support or against = them. I feel these issues as unresolved and would love to hear input form the chairs and the WG how do we proceed further. 1. Manifest Formats The charter says "A small number of formats is preferred to reduce the complexity of a firmware management solution, where each IoT device would typically only support one format, but the same tool or service might support all such formats. " It is not very clear from the charter what tool or service are being referred to and its influence on the complexity or the number of serialization formats to constitute as a restriction in the charter deliverable. Would it be fine if the the charter just says one or more serialization formats will be developed by the working group and then leave it to the WG to decide the number and formats based on the use-cases. 2. Relationship to others The charter says "This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems." I would like to reiterate that it is quite important that this WG maintain relationships with the people who build and deploy the IOT devices as well. Hannes had the following proposal ( https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/suit/current/msg00249.html) and may we use the same ? "This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. Additionally, the group will reach out to companies who build and deploy IoT devices." 3. Permission Model involving multiple sources I think the whole idea of multiple people signing is very unclear on the requirements and its applicability or its widespread use. Most common deployments today follow the model of single vendor signing. Would the WG be open to start with a simple permission model (single vendor based) that is readily applicable to majority of today deployments and possibly extend it as necessary. please let me know your thoughts On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) < david.waltermire@nist.gov> wrote: > Kathleen, Dave, and I met earlier today to discuss the charter and the wa= y > forward. This email includes updated charter text and milestones, and a > brief description of the changes we have made based on the input from the > mailing list. > > The following is updated charter text and milestones based on the mailing > list conversation since the BoF. We are posting this text for review on t= he > SUIT mailing list for 1 week, ending on Monday, December 11th at 23:59 UT= C. > This review is a call for consensus on the full charter. Please indicate = if > you support this text or if you have any objections or blocking concerns = on > this text. Please provide comments including proposed text changes ASAP t= o > provide ample time for discussion. > > Kathleen will post updated text to the Datatracker at a future date once > we get a sense of the mailing list discussion to follow. This will likely > be before we have assessed consensus. We will update the Datatracker and > post these updates to the list as needed per agreement on the list. > > -- start charter text --- > > Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need > for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for > constrained devices. Security experts, researchers, and regulators > recommend that all IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism. While > there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, there > is a lack of a modern interoperable approach of securely updating the > firmware in IoT devices. In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board > organized a workshop on 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)= ', > and RFC 8240 documents various requirements and challenges that are > specific to IoT devices. > > A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: > * A mechanism to transport firmware images to compatible devices. > * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a > firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and > dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic > information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion. > * The firmware image itself. > > This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution (taking into > account past learnings from RFC 4108 and other firmware update solutions) > that will be usable on Class 1 (as defined in RFC 7228) devices, i.e., > devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to > more capable devices as well. This group will not define any new transpo= rt > or discovery mechanisms, but may describe how to use existing mechanisms > within the architecture. > > In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely: > * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the > involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. > * One or more manifest format specifications. > > The initial focus of this group will be development of the information > model for the contents of a manifest. Once there is general agreement on > the contents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats > such as CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) > to encode the manifest. A small number of formats is preferred to reduce > the complexity of a firmware management solution, where each IoT device > would typically only support one format, but the same tool or service mig= ht > support all such formats. To support a wide range of deployment scenarios= , > the formats are expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of > different firmware sources and permission models. > > This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic application > software update mechanism, but instead this group will focus on firmware > development practices in the embedded industry. Software update solutions > that target updating software other than the firmware binaries (e.g., > applications) are also out of scope. > > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors > and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. > > -- end charter text --- > > -- start proposed milestones -- > Date Milestone > Nov 2018 Submit an initial manifest serialization format to the IESG for > publication as a Proposed Standard. > Jul 2018 Submit manifest information model to the IESG for publication > as Informational. > Jul 2018 Calendar item: Second interoperability event at IETF 102. > Mar 2018 Calendar item: First interoperability event at IETF 101. > Mar 2018 Adopt a manifest information model as a WG item. > Mar 2018 Adopt initial manifest serialization format(s) as WG item(s). > Jan 2018 Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. > -- end proposed milestones -- > > The updated charter and milestones addresses the following concerns raise= d > on the mailing list: > - The text around the IAB workshop on the Internet of Things (IoT) > Software Update (IOTSU) has been minimized, with a single sentence left t= o > provide historical backgroud information. > - Bulleted items in the second and fourth paragraphs are now indicated by > an asterisk. The formatting is fixed. > - Text about RFC 4108 has been further minimized, with only a reference t= o > RFC 4108 included as a source of past learnings on update solutions along > with existing other work on firmware update solutions. This makes RFC 410= 8 > part of the larger body of work to consider as lessons-learned in this > space. > - Discussion of defining the use of existing transport or discovery > mechanisms is now referenced to be described in the architecture. > - The text on formats has been clarified to be more consistent with the > discussions on the mailing list. The new text discusses the development o= f > a manifest information model that describes the manifest contents, and th= e > development of one or more manifest serialization formats and crypto > mechanisms. The information model and serialization format split has also > been reflected in the milestones. This leaves the actual document > organization up to the WG, the milestones do not dictate that documents b= e > separated (or not separated). > - The term "firmware" has been used where appropriate instead of > "software" to better reflect the focus of the WG on firmware update > mechanisms and to be consistent with the BoF meeting consensus. The > milestones have been updated for more consistent use of terminology as we= ll. > - The last paragraph has been rewritten to avoid singling out a single OS > or enumerating a larger list of OS's, and instead to focus on the > difference between firmware and applications, as discussed at the BoF. > > Regards, > Dave Waltermire and Dave Thaler > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit > --f4030437c7f4b3e7ee05603c1aac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Chairs


Thanks chairs for sharing the updated charter. My apol= ogies for delay in responding. I totally lost track of the deadline (my bad= )

Here are few concerns regardin= g the current charter text and would greatly appreciate if these can be dis= cussed or taken into consideration by the chairs and the WG.


Major Issue:


Firmware update service discovery and mechanisms to do= wnload the firmware


The curre= nt charter says

"

This group will not define any new transport or discovery mechani= sms,

but may describe how to use existing mechanisms with= in the architecture

"=


Couple of points of concerns=

1. From my recollection of BOF discussi= ons, there was support to charter work to discover the firmware server, the= manifest and using existing mechanisms to download the firmware image.

2. The strength of "may" i= n the current charter text and lacking explicit deliverable for this, makes= one conclude such a work by the WG is optional.


There are several deployments where the IoT device ope= rating under restricted network access cannot reach out to the manufacturer= 's/OEM's website to download the firmware. Often one does not want = to have a device with unpatched firmware using the open internet to contact= the vendor's website to get a firmware update and instead a local firm= ware server is used to cache the firmware.=C2=A0 One can expect to have loc= al firmware server managed by the enterprise/factory to serve the firmware.=

Having charter make explicit pr= ovision for discovering such local server & locate the manifest (and fi= rmware) on that server at a well-known location, as a WG deliverable, will = be super beneficial and helps in a great deal towards building interoperab= le solution.


To that extent,= may i propose splitting the WG deliverables as below ( including some text= suggestions posted by Michael as well, from https://www.ietf.org/mail-ar= chive/web/suit/current/msg00286.html)

* One or more optional mechanisms will be described that use exis= ting transport and discovery protocols to locate and transfer the firmware<= /span>

* The requirements for secure fi= rmware upgrade will be documented

* Define a general architecture the enables secure IoT firmware upgrade d= escribing involved elements, security threats

* An extensible data model that captures metadata and securit= y properties about the firmware will be developed and codified in a manifes= t.

* Define one or more encoding= formats for the maifest


Mino= r Issues

=C2=A0Below are some of= the issues which have been raised on the mailing list earlier and I haven= =E2=80=99t heard consensus either in support or against them. I feel these = issues as unresolved and would love to hear input form the chairs and the W= G how do we proceed further.


= 1. Manifest Formats


The chart= er says

"A small number of formats is p= referred to reduce the complexity of a firmware management solution, where = each IoT device would typically only support one format, but the same tool = or service might support all such formats. "


It is not very clear from the charter what tool or ser= vice are being referred to and its influence on the complexity or the numb= er of serialization formats to constitute as a restriction in the charter d= eliverable. Would it be fine if the the charter just says one or more seria= lization formats will be developed by the working group and then leave it t= o the WG to decide the number and formats based on the use-cases.

2. Relationship to others

The charter says

"This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with s= ilicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems."

I would like to reiterate that it is q= uite important that this WG maintain relationships with the people who buil= d and deploy the IOT devices as well. Hannes had the following proposal (= https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/suit/current/msg00249.html) and m= ay we use the same ?


"This group will aim to maintain a close relationship w= ith silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. Additional= ly, the group will reach out to companies who build and deploy IoT devices.= "



3. Permission Mode= l involving multiple sources


I think the whole idea of multiple people signing is very unclear on the = requirements and its applicability or its widespread use. Most common deplo= yments today follow the model of single vendor signing. Would the WG be ope= n to start with a simple permission model (single vendor based) that is rea= dily applicable to majority of today deployments and possibly extend it as = necessary.


please let me know your thoughts

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <david.waltermire@nist.gov> wrote:
Kathleen, Dave, and I met earlier today to discuss the charte= r and the way forward. This email includes updated charter text and milesto= nes, and a brief description of the changes we have made based on the input= from the mailing list.

The following is updated charter text and milestones based on the mailing l= ist conversation since the BoF. We are posting this text for review on the = SUIT mailing list for 1 week, ending on Monday, December 11th at 23:59 UTC.= This review is a call for consensus on the full charter. Please indicate i= f you support this text or if you have any objections or blocking concerns = on this text. Please provide comments including proposed text changes ASAP = to provide ample time for discussion.

Kathleen will post updated text to the Datatracker at a future date once we= get a sense of the mailing list discussion to follow. This will likely be = before we have assessed consensus. We will update the Datatracker and post = these updates to the list as needed per agreement on the list.

-- start charter text ---

Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need fo= r a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for constrained = devices.=C2=A0 Security experts, researchers, and regulators recommend that= all IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism.=C2=A0 While there are m= any proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, there is a lack of= a modern interoperable approach of securely updating the firmware in IoT d= evices. In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a worksho= p on 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', and RFC 82= 40 documents various requirements and challenges that are specific to IoT d= evices.

A firmware update solution consists of several components, including:
* A mechanism to transport firmware images to compatible devices.
* A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a fi= rmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and depen= dencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic information f= or protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion.
* The firmware image itself.

This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution (taking into a= ccount past learnings from RFC 4108 and other firmware update solutions) th= at will be usable on Class 1 (as defined in RFC 7228) devices, i.e., device= s with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash.=C2=A0 The solution may apply to more= capable devices as well.=C2=A0 This group will not define any new transpor= t or discovery mechanisms, but may describe how to use existing mechanisms = within the architecture.

In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely:
* An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the in= volved entities, security threats, and assumptions.
* One or more manifest format specifications.

The initial focus of this group will be development of the information mode= l for the contents of a manifest. Once there is general agreement on the co= ntents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats such as= CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encod= e the manifest. A small number of formats is preferred to reduce the comple= xity of a firmware management solution, where each IoT device would typical= ly only support one format, but the same tool or service might support all = such formats. To support a wide range of deployment scenarios, the formats = are expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of different firmware= sources and permission models.

This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic application soft= ware update mechanism, but instead this group will focus on firmware develo= pment practices in the embedded industry. Software update solutions that ta= rget updating software other than the firmware binaries (e.g., applications= ) are also out of scope.

This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors a= nd OEMs that develop IoT operating systems.

-- end charter text ---

-- start proposed milestones --
Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Milestone
Nov 2018=C2=A0 Submit an initial manifest serialization format to the IESG = for publication as a Proposed Standard.
Jul 2018=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Submit manifest information model to the IESG for pub= lication as Informational.
Jul 2018=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Calendar item: Second interoperability event at IETF = 102.
Mar 2018 Calendar item: First interoperability event at IETF 101.
Mar 2018 Adopt a manifest information model as a WG item.
Mar 2018 Adopt initial manifest serialization format(s) as WG item(s).
Jan 2018 Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item.
-- end proposed milestones --

The updated charter and milestones addresses the following concerns raised = on the mailing list:
- The text around the IAB workshop on the Internet of Things (IoT) Software= Update (IOTSU) has been minimized, with a single sentence left to provide = historical backgroud information.
- Bulleted items in the second and fourth paragraphs are now indicated by a= n asterisk. The formatting is fixed.
- Text about RFC 4108 has been further minimized, with only a reference to = RFC 4108 included as a source of past learnings on update solutions along w= ith existing other work on firmware update solutions. This makes RFC 4108 p= art of the larger body of work to consider as lessons-learned in this space= .
- Discussion of defining the use of existing transport or discovery mechani= sms is now referenced to be described in the architecture.
- The text on formats has been clarified to be more consistent with the dis= cussions on the mailing list. The new text discusses the development of a m= anifest information model that describes the manifest contents, and the dev= elopment of one or more manifest serialization formats and crypto mechanism= s. The information model and serialization format split has also been refle= cted in the milestones. This leaves the actual document organization up to = the WG, the milestones do not dictate that documents be separated (or not s= eparated).
- The term "firmware" has been used where appropriate instead of = "software" to better reflect the focus of the WG on firmware upda= te mechanisms and to be consistent with the BoF meeting consensus. The mile= stones have been updated for more consistent use of terminology as well. - The last paragraph has been rewritten to avoid singling out a single OS o= r enumerating a larger list of OS's, and instead to focus on the differ= ence between firmware and applications, as discussed at the BoF.

Regards,
Dave Waltermire and Dave Thaler

_______________________________________________
Suit mailing list
Suit@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit

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(PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alissa Cooper To: "The IESG" Cc: suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.67.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151319698517.30209.6965883605390561.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 12:29:45 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 20:29:45 -0000 Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-suit-00-09: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The new version addresses the points I raised in the last round. Thanks! From nobody Wed Dec 13 16:32:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietf.org Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7C4124B18; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 16:32:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ben Campbell To: "The IESG" Cc: suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.67.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151321157001.6166.17857040456576534840.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 16:32:50 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Ben Campbell's Yes on charter-ietf-suit-00-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 00:32:50 -0000 Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-suit-00-09: Yes When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Adam’s comment about line breaks is still true in this version. From nobody Wed Dec 13 18:07:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24BA1279EB; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:07:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TbC2OzjFtFcd; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBB7C127517; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id v26so2568341pfl.7; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:07:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dzuQdCQuog026gJaUpdWOQgIMOL0wa6+vvIUawa5PX0=; b=lM6QCbWCpYI4rxjoA5UCZWUyZLOtmCstEL+hqihJm17wuGhnSdPVWOZirF+WgKys/k 7U9BijxeNs0J0aYn40S7gRuN1ogKHs19AHkylk3SXqN3fhqna0GgDs5TBSAnUrk/QDiq ZAdwQtxjGBAwed0RaMkn5ZkfbE/4U4vrF7vu0DjWKVsQbbVX8CO92QCCJG3Kn1qH2HOT fyNBlLXmKk5GpzRxDZNJstXurIkm3xuUcREjTHWkAvQF62olk8QQMF7rtlmNZUddGtqU fdKCQiGvo7+OgQM13mKNuOv+kUz0YoFsGPJf2QbGCZsc09BNpkaMPEVfNvoK6+QVrtuR /TBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dzuQdCQuog026gJaUpdWOQgIMOL0wa6+vvIUawa5PX0=; b=o5+d6JrqDi2jFufILACiTaSZiMv5wWp8fitoMnp1+wg8exurRX+7o+uP4BmUCRDKRI KHqSGYpu8ctMsHmYq1zUWFwmJyQ0ZV//TOLjKoJRYuVcbIEGoOmFylr0vfTL+h4Ia+IK 7i2LyHp2aJk2jTcTp7XgvqiX8riha7p6ZVvFixd/fr+hdXtMI2ACjoWDO3Da81n6+qFn JZsdhvbEFF8PbhHs0K2vL264RWkv7NQCPtS/+OgMjUhZcXXhSrAj2wpjRYnYANVfC5s/ LCpKOgi2CF8OH6FGb6AuCIWtHXpcI2a6dOJEQhxVKV0aZsoEZMUNNvCu26IObDvsGXVd oslw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKT4n5GL/qDZqgrqaJ3UrYSynZKTWNKLDjnd4cs/YRy3h2geBdB ICan/yXiPUoGqA/4ZhkesUnNX4BDPKUyHZXikrA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotMDf7EzpTTt/1+BpMq4Kbtfr5jWCIDGKVcdrJK2MWyuB16mloZoxtzxM27jAn+TbYRwF4dUan6Cz1yP7Fiwh4= X-Received: by 10.98.248.67 with SMTP id c3mr8022928pfm.205.1513217240292; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:07:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.208 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:06:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <151321157001.6166.17857040456576534840.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <151321157001.6166.17857040456576534840.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 21:06:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: The IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Ben Campbell's Yes on charter-ietf-suit-00-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 02:07:23 -0000 On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 7:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-suit-00-09: Yes > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Adam=E2=80=99s comment about line breaks is still true in this version. Yes, I'm going to ask the secretariat for help. Something funny is happening that I haven't been able to correct and don't want to generate a bunch of new versions in the process. Thanks! > > > _______________________________________________ > Suit mailing list > Suit@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit --=20 Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Thu Dec 14 06:56:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietf.org Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F1A1293E9; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 06:56:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benoit Claise To: "The IESG" Cc: suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.67.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151326336837.6075.678625045785179657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 06:56:08 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 14:56:08 -0000 Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-suit-00-09: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't understand why the charter wants to focus on specific serialization formats. "The initial focus of this group will be development of the information model for the contents of a manifest. Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats such as CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest." Because it's IoT and it has to be efficient? In the end, you care about a data model [RFC3444] as opposed to a information model [RFC3444], from which you can automate your serialization formats. Actually, the serialization of the day... Btw, This doesn't prevent to specify a default for interoperability. I'll trust the responsible AD on that matter. From nobody Thu Dec 14 07:07:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24A99129412; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 07:07:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opxUJikNY0St; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 07:07:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22e.google.com (mail-pg0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D211129407; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 07:07:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id g7so3590952pgs.0; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 07:07:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4R6brdHsTF6nfixDPcZKJHAfLNfmqhBOjMur4KBV9os=; b=V16g9H4FhJ2CMlVzTchiNWLWLbtCqK8cXsvrYfpypWj5JpqvyH8aI1wJtn3gTsdX2V eToyOceXzIUR/pteS4drD0cDg59ap/gf1ThY1oZVW7mslK06H8/ZyELeu1xFu3iMfYuJ TG92a5D6so6pG8pKoiRsRGh52oEu8jt9e5F/M+UA82FfeOonSrNGEqBKVduyaBOhbjU0 ewtSQENDhRZXa4RRQlUsAGItA/PkEr2t4x0JD6yQhUBNvFX/SNz3GshE5tvtes/sDkKw ofDTtinjRLhtbSe6buP5BTY1YIlZ/CK5DNaZMfesQH9bDxcBKY15BaHXuPHo/x8Xq84J 3kaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4R6brdHsTF6nfixDPcZKJHAfLNfmqhBOjMur4KBV9os=; b=HEZYmLV85AdkLNJWmhVCCH46jkK0Ay7k7h6TRx7kOOGY0X/eO7+xlKnk8HuAJ3/NNh +Sqdqt4fgIubNSj7mg6nNknt+z+KFIhbfnpRhZmuaxmS6XHtSDYyFEGXxx8wDO0SFOZh tXdIq50CkSu9lLJbnUZ5883wJA26qEvR2IRbsp0QuOg2g+eRMGa+rsYsCnoA/xo2CevU I1t0lItPZCZgYR876rDE7AdWF9sj4SF/cIs0x4AFlSSmyOVrvec6Kv2kATh5QM+sTl1e Sc0XKzMKzxI4ywXphYjWsbH6YoZtwhVw0/8kHqyn7NpElE6A54B9t5qLhCGdsw4KXMuc Q7cA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mK9KMJn6pQiPbZhTO5/S8EqEzf5Dl3reKdMiIx+ueX9L+jtUUza LVZfE+Nq8EynilNpXB/qq41zGqxjuhrzH/k4wzE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouq3SpBqohP/q6ChIKXUMh3TUTCSG0nav14VrhtBSzv+Wf8pWvfOetBP4AiBUskSu+kiiILL5bkDV09pWaco7k= X-Received: by 10.159.197.5 with SMTP id bj5mr9956427plb.219.1513264052171; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 07:07:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.208 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 07:06:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <151326336837.6075.678625045785179657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <151326336837.6075.678625045785179657.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 10:06:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: Benoit Claise Cc: The IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-suit-00-09: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:07:52 -0000 Benoit, On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-suit-00-09: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I don't understand why the charter wants to focus on specific serialization > formats. > > "The initial focus of this group will be development of the information model > for the contents of a manifest. Once there is general agreement on the > contents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats such as > CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the > manifest." > > Because it's IoT and it has to be efficient? > In the end, you care about a data model [RFC3444] as opposed to a information > model [RFC3444], from which you can automate your serialization formats. > Actually, the serialization of the day... Btw, This doesn't prevent to specify > a default for interoperability. Thanks for your comments. The additional language for serialization formats, data model, and information model was the outcome from the BoF and recent list discussion. Hence, the language tried to clarify the discussion and open up the options for this. The result is just what you are saying, the WG will be open to what's needed and no decision has been made in the charter. I believe the charter lines up with your request and that's how the chairs see it. We'll keep your comments in mind and appreciate your review. Thank you. > > I'll trust the responsible AD on that matter. > > -- Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Fri Dec 15 09:59:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietf.org Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5395127419; Fri, 15 Dec 2017 09:59:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.67.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: The IESG , suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <151336078880.30458.12600778391854850970.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 09:59:48 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] WG Action: Formed Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 17:59:49 -0000 A new IETF WG has been formed in the Security Area. For additional information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Active WG Chairs: Dave Thaler David Waltermire Russ Housley Assigned Area Director: Kathleen Moriarty Security Area Directors: Kathleen Moriarty Eric Rescorla Mailing list: Address: suit@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=suit Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/suit/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-suit/ Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for constrained devices. Security experts, researchers, and regulators recommend that all IoT devices be equipped with such a mechanism. While there are many proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, there is no modern interoperable approach allowing secure updates to firmware in IoT devices. In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized a workshop on 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', and RFC 8240 documents various requirements and challenges that are specific to IoT devices. A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: * A mechanism to transport firmware images to compatible devices. * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, and dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion. * The firmware image itself. This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution (taking into account past learnings from RFC 4108 and other firmware update solutions) that will be usable on Class 1 (as defined in RFC 7228) devices, i.e., devices with ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more capable devices as well. This group will not define any new transport or discovery mechanisms, but may describe how to use existing mechanisms within the architecture. In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely: * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. * One or more manifest format specifications. To support specification of manifest format(s), this group will first develop the information model for the contents of a manifest. Once there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick a small number of serialization formats such as CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and their associated cryptographic mechanisms) to encode the manifest. A small number of formats is preferred to reduce the complexity of a firmware management solution, where each IoT device would typically only support one format, but the same tool or service might support all such formats. To support a wide range of deployment scenarios, the formats are expected to be expressive enough to allow the use of different firmware sources and permission models. This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic application software update mechanism, but instead this group will focus on firmware development practices in the embedded industry. Software update solutions that target updating software other than the firmware binaries (e.g., applications) are also out of scope. This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. Milestones: Jan 2018 - Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. Mar 2018 - Adopt a manifest information model as a WG item. Mar 2018 - Calendar item: First interoperability event at IETF 101. Mar 2018 - Adopt initial manifest serialization format(s) as WG item(s). Jul 2018 - Calendar item: Second interoperability event at IETF 102. Jul 2018 - Submit manifest information model to the IESG for publication as Informational. Nov 2018 - Submit an initial manifest serialization format to the IESG for publication as a Proposed Standard. 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(Fed)" To: "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: WG Action: Formed Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) Thread-Index: AQHTdc6G+fgxBGjRFkeOFHWC7t6vpaNEscmQ Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 18:03:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <151336078880.30458.12600778391854850970.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <151336078880.30458.12600778391854850970.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=david.waltermire@nist.gov; x-originating-ip: [129.6.224.58] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; CY4PR09MB1496; 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nist.gov X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bd5c7903-c955-4059-4596-08d543e61f27 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Dec 2017 18:03:18.6062 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 2ab5d82f-d8fa-4797-a93e-054655c61dec X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CY4PR09MB1496 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Action: Formed Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 18:03:23 -0000 Q29uZ3JhdHVsYXRpb25zIHRvIHRoZSBXRyEgVGhhbmtzIHRvIGV2ZXJ5b25lIHdobyBoZWxwZWQg Z2V0IHVzIHRvIHRoaXMgcG9pbnQuIFNwZWNpYWwgdGhhbmtzIHRvIEthdGhsZWVuIGZvciBhbGwg aGVyIGhlbHAhDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsDQpEYXZlDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0t 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(Fed)" , "suit@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: WG Action: Formed Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) Thread-Index: AQHTdc8DOClbbt4ZwUaSTCGiMRi7jKNHaa+g Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:32:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <151336078880.30458.12600778391854850970.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [80.92.123.79] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM4PR0801MB2707; 6:UiIKt8CG4HY/HAyKFSVnksNHpOnA8bOfrq4BHXhamt2iKzwRySyg69QBSKdCoJHDPVCIjgiCVbC8Ll7NmoFMSyPyT6oN0JdnLiyevz3d5HTd6BJpQLYuebWdGpg30RdWHDUYflEWSY9yOWIrWkcWsAIibTEMP0D11+dfKayzhOLingGyXhT5xsXmaDGLk9wLOrz/1cyp1bzwvHzdqTGYCX8tJcEa6Jh/gsq0/p209DJ/jSVdDgiEVph33Xn5I+3Iif/g093nuVGwdiK1W83sMUdlRnaDm65M65UDblAQa0ljVq+ZQIC8L9GBt01L8j3rG4qn73NYgfzfM28gHgGjuaWlHBzs3ScCx+fjMH0M+/s=; 5:fUED7UCpXFAx6lXvMucz+6vlr+YYF5nM1uCcicoZW28DkM5kzBjXv0rHPjuP13yvMZgJufGlh7L+R3CVjA/Q0RjuTMQeVq+bZioEkHqhiAuAQfIvXUTBnEgXhF4zjhiz0hFmR4h8UPyD0rD64doEOsc6LkOMLu1VHIST7BLWEqM=; 24:vzCf1DjupGgTr9PDW5wd+bRczQWgJ/gavryC87QXrZrb1xjS2P8f/Kh4+OXUuIvOYubgBrZVxhX5/7zagJJMDs8ba3RBjTXO6kS0TTUTPjU=; 7:CDM8xVjvNMAQ2akWYBIqlSyWJuqNpfXbO5Y8C//K1Rcyju/CJprB2i8BZFRqSWvFLVzOPuG2CRAbBp2L6EG/FTlAEnfj7UEfbEUL1643aGm8/uuJB2f9QkgdcrL6SMHu+LoyKAhpPVvIHqmP7zexVeSVRJ7qoo4F7W2PnXnfAozlDX1pbk6E9M+eWis3vgDPgtaFqMPrUFcLPFBSC+JL15/4VczazYlakXpNib/nZH1pYesitZv1Nhn5C1MPmD+e x-ms-exchange-antispam-srfa-diagnostics: SSOS; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e099095d-1e5c-4056-d370-08d54541dab3 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(5600026)(4604075)(4534020)(4602075)(4627115)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(48565401081)(2017052603307); SRVR:AM4PR0801MB2707; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM4PR0801MB2707: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(65766998875637)(278428928389397)(89211679590171)(192374486261705)(189930954265078)(219752817060721); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040450)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046)(93006095)(93001095)(3231023)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123564025)(20161123562025)(20161123555025)(201703131423075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(201703061406153)(20161123560025)(20161123558100)(6072148)(201708071742011); SRVR:AM4PR0801MB2707; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(100000803101)(100110400095); SRVR:AM4PR0801MB2707; x-forefront-prvs: 05245CA661 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(39850400004)(376002)(396003)(346002)(366004)(199004)(189003)(40434004)(13464003)(54164003)(45074003)(51914003)(3846002)(2900100001)(66066001)(3280700002)(2906002)(229853002)(3660700001)(110136005)(2950100002)(33656002)(102836003)(72206003)(6246003)(316002)(25786009)(45080400002)(478600001)(8676002)(6506007)(97736004)(81156014)(81166006)(53546011)(6116002)(53936002)(14454004)(15650500001)(59450400001)(575784001)(2501003)(5890100001)(6306002)(8936002)(5880100001)(9686003)(86362001)(7736002)(74316002)(6436002)(7696005)(106356001)(305945005)(68736007)(5250100002)(105586002)(76176011)(55016002)(966005)(99286004)(5660300001)(8656006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM4PR0801MB2707; H:AM4PR0801MB2706.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: arm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: arm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e099095d-1e5c-4056-d370-08d54541dab3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Dec 2017 11:32:28.6108 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f34e5979-57d9-4aaa-ad4d-b122a662184d X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4PR0801MB2707 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Action: Formed Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:32:36 -0000 That's great news. Thanks for the chairs and the AD for their work! -----Original Message----- From: Suit [mailto:suit-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Waltermire, David A.= (Fed) Sent: 15 December 2017 19:03 To: suit@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Suit] WG Action: Formed Software Updates for Internet of Thin= gs (suit) Congratulations to the WG! Thanks to everyone who helped get us to this poi= nt. Special thanks to Kathleen for all her help! Regards, Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: The IESG [mailto:iesg-secretary@ietf.org] > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2017 1:00 PM > To: IETF-Announce > Cc: The IESG ; suit-chairs@ietf.org; suit@ietf.org > Subject: WG Action: Formed Software Updates for Internet of Things > (suit) > > A new IETF WG has been formed in the Security Area. For additional > information, please contact the Area Directors or the WG Chairs. > > Software Updates for Internet of Things (suit) > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Current status: Active WG > > Chairs: > Dave Thaler > David Waltermire > Russ Housley > > Assigned Area Director: > Kathleen Moriarty > > Security Area Directors: > Kathleen Moriarty > Eric Rescorla > > Mailing list: > Address: suit@ietf.org > To subscribe: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > et > f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40 > nist.gov%7C8a0ab9e49c3741e391be08d543e5a2c2%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a9 > 3e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636489575912792168&sdata=3DV37%2BTBjPE > 7eQvx9AeOgvKrEQAqMOa%2F7baGQ62hQwKAo%3D&reserved=3D0 > Archive: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fmaila > rchi > ve.ietf.org%2Farch%2Fsearch%2F%3Femail_list%3Dsuit&data=3D02%7C01%7Cd > avid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C8a0ab9e49c3741e391be08d543e5a2c2%7C2a > b5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636489575912792168&s > data=3DyGYKDKiyyD4Z%2F19aU5YH%2BGxXLhaEPIeUGz3qiibRSDc%3D&reserve > d=3D0 > > Group page: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatat > rac > ker.ietf.org%2Fgroup%2Fsuit%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nis > t.gov%7C8a0ab9e49c3741e391be08d543e5a2c2%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e > 054655c61dec%7C1%7C0%7C636489575912792168&sdata=3Dy71rAPQ%2FlBhl > 5d%2BmrUCxsTJEqvJIZOciBUo1gy3PTl0%3D&reserved=3D0 > > Charter: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatat > rac > ker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf- > suit%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C8a0ab9e49c374 > 1e391be08d543e5a2c2%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C0 > %7C636489575912792168&sdata=3DdjuseCGbCGdeSDSpxtb%2BFim4YTb5rUNT > 5wMSer%2FGuPY%3D&reserved=3D0 > > Vulnerabilities in Internet of Things (IoT) devices have raised the > need for a secure firmware update mechanism that is also suitable for con= strained devices. > Security experts, researchers, and regulators recommend that all IoT > devices be equipped with such a mechanism. While there are many > proprietary firmware update mechanisms in use today, there is no > modern interoperable approach allowing secure updates to firmware in > IoT devices. In June of 2016 the Internet Architecture Board organized > a workshop on 'Internet of Things (IoT) Software Update (IOTSU)', and > RFC 8240 documents various requirements and challenges that are specific = to IoT devices. > > A firmware update solution consists of several components, including: > * A mechanism to transport firmware images to compatible devices. > * A manifest that provides meta-data about the firmware image (such as > a firmware package identifier, the hardware the package needs to run, > and dependencies on other firmware packages), as well as cryptographic > information for protecting the firmware image in an end-to-end fashion. > * The firmware image itself. > > This group will focus on defining a firmware update solution (taking > into account past learnings from RFC 4108 and other firmware update > solutions) that will be usable on Class 1 (as defined in RFC 7228) > devices, i.e., devices with > ~10 KiB RAM and ~100 KiB flash. The solution may apply to more > capable devices as well. This group will not define any new transport > or discovery mechanisms, but may describe how to use existing > mechanisms within the architecture. > > In particular this group aims to publish several documents, namely: > * An IoT firmware update architecture that includes a description of > the involved entities, security threats, and assumptions. > * One or more manifest format specifications. > > To support specification of manifest format(s), this group will first > develop the information model for the contents of a manifest. Once > there is general agreement on the contents, the group will pick a > small number of serialization formats such as CBOR and/or ASN.1 (and > their associated cryptographic > mechanisms) to encode the manifest. A small number of formats is > preferred to reduce the complexity of a firmware management solution, > where each IoT device would typically only support one format, but the > same tool or service might support all such formats. To support a wide > range of deployment scenarios, the formats are expected to be > expressive enough to allow the use of different firmware sources and perm= ission models. > > This group does not aim to create a standard for a generic application > software update mechanism, but instead this group will focus on > firmware development practices in the embedded industry. Software > update solutions that target updating software other than the firmware > binaries (e.g., > applications) are also out of scope. > > This group will aim to maintain a close relationship with silicon > vendors and OEMs that develop IoT operating systems. > > Milestones: > > Jan 2018 - Adopt "Architecture" document as WG item. > > Mar 2018 - Adopt a manifest information model as a WG item. > > Mar 2018 - Calendar item: First interoperability event at IETF 101. > > Mar 2018 - Adopt initial manifest serialization format(s) as WG item(s)= . > > Jul 2018 - Calendar item: Second interoperability event at IETF 102. > > Jul 2018 - Submit manifest information model to the IESG for publicatio= n as > Informational. > > Nov 2018 - Submit an initial manifest serialization format to the IESG = for > publication as a Proposed Standard. > _______________________________________________ Suit mailing list Suit@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/suit IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. From nobody Tue Dec 19 10:07:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D25141241F5 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:07:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ddSE9R8EUJaZ for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x235.google.com (mail-pg0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2DDA1289B0 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:07:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x235.google.com with SMTP id b18so10841305pgv.10 for ; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:07:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1VGsiVxaWqMCYLhn8vtOIhllzWhU4dQAtqgbG7u9yy4=; b=Dzzn5Hh2GqJATaUHpmAokBpmehVC4IOITDATflrHOV1aCyLz2OcDNOtBrXfDafFho1 4z1bZvC9Npr3FmXxy42zLlxgYrYn2LHvONx5kekGFtnxxQ+uzzPOO1sPDq3UBI5TouYL Nw3Y9dPNG/315+fIN5DfuEREHbrQOLPWtpWAxRuZNI+eBcDCshC5++3b1W3uiIhZ8X6A bHPgwqybmsx23sS+dFsDxUZaHVGwex6xj6h/HK3YPeLGvr8Gw6mg2f4PaxyaeMkaZstM 2mNAQI31CSq2DJ9CoODAwO9+Hyl8D4Jnm5a5vTNB7EQQTD6ZHo+tLuq1lpIaIcfUovzR kKPw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=1VGsiVxaWqMCYLhn8vtOIhllzWhU4dQAtqgbG7u9yy4=; b=jrvKgkK+/3KoqQ/sy+P5TAEkqJ3Aaj9EauIJx29Jb/FCyHXqv+BbXDljUD+DbDfvQq jiLDl0oqLkHUa6irVNenIkA6TcAa1XjZzVLOWiQ1/4QN1R/3wMTQ22cKKIXNBzYLpdnv fz57+IZlQTzlhobbWIwlSyDWgMg/ZmSonQMU/DoJ5uzohkeWo2dKc17Af8/REJVp5OOr 8HqkXdFK6UAnulht05I1U2ctnUrCT4lnng6pa79KWVNTQnESSrjDwipnC0eGAv1ebXSQ hz7KxqIjcDI1zW5PnHb/NFa+cga/TyGXDKiPpaAxuDsFHjZ1SBNzsBRR5bmbEMySVArx mxmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mL0SSEmQNuEo8QnWlfLpSq5p6AX5bmUSoFRQAnHDnl88abdEwSf 7/5BTIjS5kicpE4h1s6D+n+0mHte85nqLmWwya8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBosLFAmGbEIJngsnRNsGIyUInS7154EUGibVeLULl7bX0/SdDb9H1x2pip927rW7vlKAp3P9RDZS/n9z2R7EvAs= X-Received: by 10.98.72.69 with SMTP id v66mr4048933pfa.135.1513706825207; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:07:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.186.208 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:06:24 -0800 (PST) From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:06:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: suit@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] SUIT WG chairs X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 18:07:07 -0000 Hello, To help SUIT get started quickly and smoothly, we will maintain the 3 chairs from the BoF work who have agreed to stay on for the WG. A big thanks to all those that volunteered and to our chairs who helped move this quickly to a WG to get the work started. Russ Housley Dave Thaler Dave Waltermire I look forward to seeing lots of progress. Happy holidays! -- Best regards, Kathleen From nobody Thu Dec 21 07:53:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: suit@ietf.org Delivered-To: suit@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD42C1252BA; Thu, 21 Dec 2017 07:53:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: housley@vigilsec.com, suit-chairs@ietf.org, suit@ietf.org, Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.68.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <151387162174.12859.12296158417762257311.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 07:53:41 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Suit] suit - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 101 X-BeenThere: suit@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: Software Updates for Internet of Things List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 15:53:42 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Russ Housley, a Chair of the suit working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Software Updates for Internet of Things Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Russ Housley Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: ipwave lamps stir ipsecme tls sipbrandy curdle dispatch sacm mile teep core ace Second Priority: t2trg lwig 6lo cfrg saag acme perc cbor Third Priority: tcpinc v6ops 6man intarea People who must be present: Russ Housley Dave Thaler Kathleen Moriarty David Waltermire Resources Requested: Special Requests: ---------------------------------------------------------