
From nobody Fri Jul  1 05:20:18 2016
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-01.txt
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Hi,

this is an update to keep the document alive with basically no changes. I'm 
more or less waiting for myself to completely finish the implementation and 
then adapt some stuff in the appendix accordingly. Sorry for the delay!

Mirja


On 30.06.2016 10:44, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : More Accurate ECN Feedback in TCP
>          Authors         : Bob Briscoe
>                            Mirja Kühlewind
>                            Richard Scheffenegger
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 37
> 	Date            : 2016-06-30
>
> Abstract:
>     Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) is a mechanism where network
>     nodes can mark IP packets instead of dropping them to indicate
>     incipient congestion to the end-points.  Receivers with an ECN-
>     capable transport protocol feed back this information to the sender.
>     ECN is specified for TCP in such a way that only one feedback signal
>     can be transmitted per Round-Trip Time (RTT).  Recently, new TCP
>     mechanisms like Congestion Exposure (ConEx) or Data Center TCP
>     (DCTCP) need more accurate ECN feedback information whenever more
>     than one marking is received in one RTT.  This document specifies an
>     experimental scheme to provide more than one feedback signal per RTT
>     in the TCP header.  Given TCP header space is scarce, it overloads
>     the three existing ECN-related flags in the TCP header and provides
>     additional information in a new TCP option.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-01
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-01
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
>


From nobody Fri Jul  8 03:36:08 2016
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: Hagen Paul Pfeifer <hagen@jauu.net>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tsvwg] Linux TCP RTO
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] Linux TCP RTO
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Thanks a lot for sharing this!

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: tsvwg [mailto:tsvwg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hagen Paul Pfeifer
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2016 4:52 PM
To: tcpm@ietf.org
Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org
Subject: [tsvwg] Linux TCP RTO

For the fellows not constantly following the Linux kernel maillinglist: we =
are currently try to adjust Linux's TCP RTO behavior to implement a RFC 629=
8 compliant calculation[1]:

	https://www.mail-archive.com/netdev@vger.kernel.org/msg114487.html


We wrote an small document where we highlighted the current Linux implement=
ation, validated our 6298 compliant implementation and presented measuremen=
ts comparing both mechanisms:

	https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pKmPfnQb6fDK4qpiNVkN8cQyGE4wYDZukcuZfR=
-BnnM


Yuchung tested the modification in large scale at Googles web servers (HTTP=
,
HTTP2) and first results looks promising:

	https://www.mail-archive.com/netdev@vger.kernel.org/msg116052.html


Hagen


[1] some aspects of Linux differs too much to implement a 100% compliant RF=
C
6298 mechanism - especially the MinRTO definition differs.


From nobody Fri Jul  8 03:50:14 2016
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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Hi all,

A first draft for the agenda for IETF 96 can be found at https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/meeting/96/agenda/tcpm/ and is also copied below.

Please let us know if there are any suggestions.

Thanks

Michael


************************************************

TCPM meeting at IETF-96
Berlin, Germany
Monday, July 18, 10:00-12:30
         =20
WG Status
---------

10:00 WG status
      Speaker: Chairs
      Time: 5 min

       =20
Working Group Items
-------------------
         =20
10:05 TCP Extended Data Offset Option
      Draft: draft-ietf-tcpm-tcp-edo
      Speaker: Chairs for the authors
      Time: 5 min
         =20
10:10 RFC793bis
      Draft: draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis
      Speaker: Chairs for editor
      Time: 5 min
         =20
10:15 Moving forward draft-ietf-tcpm-rto-consider
      Draft: draft-ietf-tcpm-rto-consider
      Speaker: Chairs
      Time: 20 min


Other Items
-----------

10:35 Updates of RACK Linux implementation
      Draft: draft-cheng-tcpm-rack
      Speaker: Yuchung Cheng
      Time: 20 min

10:55 Transports advancements in the Windows networking stack
      Draft: N/A
      Speaker: Praveen Balasubramanian
      Time: 25 min

11:20 TCP Alternative Backoff with ECN (ABE)
      Draft: draft-khademi-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn
      Speaker: Naeem Khademi
      Time: 20 min

11:40 TCP Control Block Interdependence (2140bis)
      Draft: draft-touch-tcpm-2140bis
      Speaker: Michael Welzl
      Time: 15 min

11:55 TCP over Constrained-Node Networks
      Draft: draft-gomez-core-tcp-constrained-node-networks=20
      Speaker: Carles Gomez
      Time: 10 min


From nobody Fri Jul  8 05:44:49 2016
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Subject: [tcpm] Milestones changed for tcpm WG
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Changed milestone "Submit document obsoleting undeployed TCP
extensions to the IESG for publication as an Informational RFC",
resolved as "Done".

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/tcpm/charter/


From nobody Fri Jul  8 14:18:54 2016
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Subject: [tcpm] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt-00.txt
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Hi,

We just submitted this draft for consideration of the WG. Comments are 
appreciated.

Regards, marcelo




-------- Mensaje reenviado --------
Asunto: 	I-D Action: draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt-00.txt
Fecha: 	Fri, 08 Jul 2016 14:16:35 -0700
De: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
Responder a: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
Para: 	i-d-announce@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


         Title           : Recommendations for increasing TCP performance in low RTT networks.
         Authors         : Marcelo Bagnulo
                           Koen De Schepper
                           Glenn Judd
	Filename        : draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt-00.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
    This documents compiles a set of issues that negatively affect TCP
    performance in low RTT networks as well as the recommendations to
    overcome them.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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From nobody Fri Jul  8 18:01:30 2016
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From: Joe Touch <touch@isi.edu>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt-00.txt
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Hi, Marcelo (et al.),

- regarding the receive buffer (Sec 5):

There are TCPs that autoconfigure this value, but it's not part of the
protocol spec - it's an "app layer" resource as far as TCP is concerned.
Although it's useful to discuss here, it needs to be considered as
external to the protocol.

The size of the receive buffer limits TCP performance only in the
following ways:
    - it needs to be large enough to accommodate reordering
    - it needs to be large enough to hold arriving data while gaps are
filled-in (using SACK or timeouts)
    - it needs to buffer enough data between OS scheduling of the user
app that drains the buffer
    - the buffer size is limited by what the OS allocates to the
connection (either by default or by user override)

The first two are things TCP could measure and tune, but generally the
last two are the constraining factors.

Joe

On 7/8/2016 2:18 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> Hi,
>
> We just submitted this draft for consideration of the WG. Comments are
> appreciated.
>
> Regards, marcelo
>
>
>
>
> -------- Mensaje reenviado --------
> Asunto:     I-D Action: draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt-00.txt
> Fecha:     Fri, 08 Jul 2016 14:16:35 -0700
> De:     internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Responder a:     internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Para:     i-d-announce@ietf.org
>
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>
>
>         Title           : Recommendations for increasing TCP
> performance in low RTT networks.
>         Authors         : Marcelo Bagnulo
>                           Koen De Schepper
>                           Glenn Judd
>     Filename        : draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt-00.txt
>     Pages           : 7
>     Date            : 2016-07-08
>
> Abstract:
>    This documents compiles a set of issues that negatively affect TCP
>    performance in low RTT networks as well as the recommendations to
>    overcome them.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt-00
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


From nobody Sun Jul 10 12:37:18 2016
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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Given a corresponding request, I have added draft-bagnulo-tcpm-tcp-low-rtt =
at the end of the planned TCPM agenda.

Thanks

Michael


From nobody Fri Jul 15 00:59:22 2016
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@Presenters: Please send your slides to the chairs until Sunday 17:00 CET, =
given that TCPM meets Monday morning. Follow-up updates of slides are possi=
ble, if required.

Michael


PS: Please add slide numbers.





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Subject: [tcpm] Case for ECN-capable TCP control packets: draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn
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David, [re-sending to include tsvwg & tcpm, which is what I had intended 
to do first time.]

Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as suggested,
And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument below.
Pls bash the arguments.

Summary:
The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must not be ECN 
capable.
This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and articulates a 
rebuttal against each one:
draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn>
Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down every reason 
given, so that all these packets could safely be ECN-capable.

Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before responding).

Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet follows, 
starting with some arguments common to many:
___________________________________________________________________________________________

*Common arguments against ECT*

 1. Unreliable congestion notification delivery
 2. DoS Attacks

Common rebuttals (respectively):

 1. No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control packet, and
    better performance
 2. Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT for flooding.
    Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard control packets not
    meant to be ECT., however this would negate the benefit of ECT for
    compliant transports and seems unnecessary for the following reason.
    RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn off ECN
    support if under persistent overload. This makes it hard for
    flooding packets to gain from ECT, but more experiments needed to
    see how much might be gained by an attacker flying "just under the
    radar".


*SYN/ACK**
*ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562

*SYN**
*Arguments against ECT:

 1. Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may discard ECT SYN or RST
    connection)
 2. Loss of congestion notification due to lack of support for feeding
    back CE on SYN at the responder.
 3. DoS attacks.

Rebuttals (respectively):

 1. No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but 0.6% - 0.8% of Alexa
    top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit this. Could
    retransmit the SYN without ECT, and cache this knowledge to avoid 1
    RTT delay in future
 2. Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP wire protocol.
    Solution proposed in AccECN
    <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn> draft: if
    SYN/ACK shows lack of support for feeding back CE on SYN (i.e. no
    support for AccECN) IW MUST be reduced conservatively as if CE on
    SYN (no need to be as conservative as drop of SYN - cannot be severe
    congestion as packet got through). Could cache this knowledge.
 3. See common DoS Attack rebuttal


*Pure ACK**
*Arguments against ECT:

 1. Unreliable congestion notification delivery
 2. No means to feed back congestion notifications (no ACKs of ACKs)

Rebuttals (respectively):

 1. See common unreliability rebuttal
 2. No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better performance


*Retransmission**
*Arguments against ECT:

 1. Unreliable congestion notification delivery
 2. DoS attacks
 3. Over-reacting to congestion.

Rebuttals (respectively):

 1. See common unreliability rebuttal
 2. See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by recommendation to
    ignore CE on out of window packets
 3. Correct to react twice to congestion in different RTTs


*Window Probe**
*
Arguments against ECT:

 1. Unreliable congestion notification delivery

Rebuttal:

 1. See common unreliability rebuttal

*FIN**
*
No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.
To be discussed in next rev of draft.

*RST**
*
No arguments against using ECT in RFCs
To be discussed in next rev of draft.

Cheers


Bob & Marcelo


On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David wrote:
> Marcelo and Bob,
>
> Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my "copious spare time" this week ;-).
>
> While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I suspect
> that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of the TCPM WG,
> as was the case for RFC 5562.
>
> Thanks, --David
> ----------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
> EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 293-7953     Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
> david.black@emc.com         
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> -- 
> ________________________________________________________________
> Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/

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<html>
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  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    David, [re-sending to include tsvwg &amp; tcpm, which is what I had
    intended to do first time.]<br>
    <br>
    Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as
    suggested,<br>
    And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument below.<br>
    Pls bash the arguments.<br>
    <br>
    Summary:<br>
    The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must not be
    ECN capable.<br>
    This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and articulates
    a rebuttal against each one:<br>
    <a
      href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn">draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn</a><br>
    Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down every
    reason given, so that all these packets could safely be ECN-capable.<br>
    <br>
    Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before responding).<br>
    <br>
    Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet follows,
    starting with some arguments common to many:<br>
___________________________________________________________________________________________<br>
    <br>
    <b>Common arguments against ECT</b><br>
    <ol>
      <li>Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li>DoS Attacks</li>
    </ol>
    Common rebuttals (respectively):<br>
    <ol>
      <li>No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control packet, and
        better performance<br>
      </li>
      <li>Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT for
        flooding. Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard
        control packets not meant to be ECT., however this would negate
        the benefit of ECT for compliant transports and seems
        unnecessary for the following reason. <br>
        RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn off
        ECN support if under persistent overload. This makes it hard for
        flooding packets to gain from ECT, but more experiments needed
        to see how much might be gained by an attacker flying "just
        under the radar".<br>
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br>
    <b>SYN/ACK</b><b><br>
    </b>ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562<br>
    <br>
    <b>SYN</b><b><br>
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may discard ECT SYN
        or RST connection)</li>
      <li>Loss of congestion notification due to lack of support for
        feeding back CE on SYN at the responder.</li>
      <li>DoS attacks.</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):<br>
    <ol>
      <li>No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but 0.6% - 0.8% of
        Alexa top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit this.
        Could retransmit the SYN without ECT, and cache this knowledge
        to avoid 1 RTT delay in future</li>
      <li>Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP wire
        protocol. Solution proposed in <a
          href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn">AccECN</a>
        draft: if SYN/ACK shows lack of support for feeding back CE on
        SYN (i.e. no support for AccECN) IW MUST be reduced
        conservatively as if CE on SYN (no need to be as conservative as
        drop of SYN - cannot be severe congestion as packet got
        through). Could cache this knowledge.<br>
      </li>
      <li>See common DoS Attack rebuttal<br>
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br>
    <b>Pure ACK</b><b><br>
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li>No means to feed back congestion notifications (no ACKs of
        ACKs)</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):
    <ol>
      <li>See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
      <li>No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better performance<br>
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br>
    <b>Retransmission</b><b><br>
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li>DoS attacks</li>
      <li>Over-reacting to congestion.<br>
      </li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):<br>
    <ol>
      <li>See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
      <li>See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by recommendation
        to ignore CE on out of window packets<br>
      </li>
      <li>Correct to react twice to congestion in different RTTs<br>
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br>
    <b>Window Probe</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    Arguments against ECT:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttal:<br>
    <ol>
      <li>See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
    </ol>
    <b>FIN</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.<br>
    To be discussed in next rev of draft.<br>
    <br>
    <b>RST</b><b><br>
    </b><br>
    No arguments against using ECT in RFCs<br>
    To be discussed in next rev of draft.<br>
    <br>
    Cheers<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Bob &amp; Marcelo<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362F5D88C0@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Marcelo and Bob,

Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my "copious spare time" this week ;-).

While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I suspect
that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of the TCPM WG,
as was the case for RFC 5562.

Thanks, --David
----------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 293-7953     Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:david.black@emc.com">david.black@emc.com</a>        
---------------------------------------------------
</pre>
      <br>
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bobbriscoe.net/">http://bobbriscoe.net/</a></pre>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Case for ECN-capable TCP control packets: draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn
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Hi,

I think this is interesting stuff!  Definitely good to work on, I=E2=80=99=
m interested to help out if needed.

Cheers,
Michael


> On 15. jul. 2016, at 20.31, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
>=20
> David, [re-sending to include tsvwg & tcpm, which is what I had =
intended to do first time.]
>=20
> Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as suggested,
> And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument below.
> Pls bash the arguments.
>=20
> Summary:
> The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must not be =
ECN capable.
> This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and articulates a =
rebuttal against each one:
> draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn>
> Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down every =
reason given, so that all these packets could safely be ECN-capable.
>=20
> Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before responding).
>=20
> Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet follows, =
starting with some arguments common to many:
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_________________
>=20
> Common arguments against ECT
> Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> DoS Attacks
> Common rebuttals (respectively):
> No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control packet, and better =
performance
> Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT for flooding. =
Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard control packets not =
meant to be ECT., however this would negate the benefit of ECT for =
compliant transports and seems unnecessary for the following reason.=20
> RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn off ECN =
support if under persistent overload. This makes it hard for flooding =
packets to gain from ECT, but more experiments needed to see how much =
might be gained by an attacker flying "just under the radar".
>=20
> SYN/ACK
> ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562
>=20
> SYN
> Arguments against ECT:
> Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may discard ECT SYN or RST =
connection)
> Loss of congestion notification due to lack of support for feeding =
back CE on SYN at the responder.
> DoS attacks.
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but 0.6% - 0.8% of Alexa =
top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit this. Could retransmit =
the SYN without ECT, and cache this knowledge to avoid 1 RTT delay in =
future
> Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP wire protocol. =
Solution proposed in AccECN =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn> draft: if =
SYN/ACK shows lack of support for feeding back CE on SYN (i.e. no =
support for AccECN) IW MUST be reduced conservatively as if CE on SYN =
(no need to be as conservative as drop of SYN - cannot be severe =
congestion as packet got through). Could cache this knowledge.
> See common DoS Attack rebuttal
>=20
> Pure ACK
> Arguments against ECT:
> Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> No means to feed back congestion notifications (no ACKs of ACKs)
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> See common unreliability rebuttal
> No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better performance
>=20
> Retransmission
> Arguments against ECT:
> Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> DoS attacks
> Over-reacting to congestion.
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> See common unreliability rebuttal
> See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by recommendation to =
ignore CE on out of window packets
> Correct to react twice to congestion in different RTTs
>=20
> Window Probe
>=20
> Arguments against ECT:
> Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> Rebuttal:
> See common unreliability rebuttal
> FIN
>=20
> No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.
> To be discussed in next rev of draft.
>=20
> RST
>=20
> No arguments against using ECT in RFCs
> To be discussed in next rev of draft.
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
>=20
> Bob & Marcelo
>=20
>=20
> On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David wrote:
>> Marcelo and Bob,
>>=20
>> Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my =
"copious spare time" this week ;-).
>>=20
>> While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I =
suspect
>> that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of =
the TCPM WG,
>> as was the case for RFC 5562.
>>=20
>> Thanks, --David
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
>> EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
>> +1 (508) 293-7953     Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
>> david.black@emc.com <mailto:david.black@emc.com>       =20
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> --=20
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/ =
<http://bobbriscoe.net/>_______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think this is interesting stuff! &nbsp;Definitely good to work on, I=E2=80=
=99m interested to help out if needed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div =
class=3D"">Michael</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 15. jul. 2016, at 20.31, Bob Briscoe &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@bobbriscoe.net" class=3D"">ietf@bobbriscoe.net</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20
    <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
    David, [re-sending to include tsvwg &amp; tcpm, which is what I had
    intended to do first time.]<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as
    suggested,<br class=3D"">
    And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument below.<br =
class=3D"">
    Pls bash the arguments.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Summary:<br class=3D"">
    The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must not be
    ECN capable.<br class=3D"">
    This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and articulates
    a rebuttal against each one:<br class=3D"">
    <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn" =
class=3D"">draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn</a><br class=3D"">
    Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down every
    reason given, so that all these packets could safely be =
ECN-capable.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before =
responding).<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet follows,
    starting with some arguments common to many:<br class=3D"">
=
__________________________________________________________________________=
_________________<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <b class=3D"">Common arguments against ECT</b><br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li class=3D"">DoS Attacks</li>
    </ol>
    Common rebuttals (respectively):<br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control =
packet, and
        better performance<br class=3D"">
      </li>
      <li class=3D"">Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT =
for
        flooding. Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard
        control packets not meant to be ECT., however this would negate
        the benefit of ECT for compliant transports and seems
        unnecessary for the following reason. <br class=3D"">
        RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn off
        ECN support if under persistent overload. This makes it hard for
        flooding packets to gain from ECT, but more experiments needed
        to see how much might be gained by an attacker flying "just
        under the radar".<br class=3D"">
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br class=3D"">
    <b class=3D"">SYN/ACK</b><b class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </b>ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <b class=3D"">SYN</b><b class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may =
discard ECT SYN
        or RST connection)</li>
      <li class=3D"">Loss of congestion notification due to lack of =
support for
        feeding back CE on SYN at the responder.</li>
      <li class=3D"">DoS attacks.</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):<br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but =
0.6% - 0.8% of
        Alexa top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit this.
        Could retransmit the SYN without ECT, and cache this knowledge
        to avoid 1 RTT delay in future</li>
      <li class=3D"">Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP =
wire
        protocol. Solution proposed in <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn" =
class=3D"">AccECN</a>
        draft: if SYN/ACK shows lack of support for feeding back CE on
        SYN (i.e. no support for AccECN) IW MUST be reduced
        conservatively as if CE on SYN (no need to be as conservative as
        drop of SYN - cannot be severe congestion as packet got
        through). Could cache this knowledge.<br class=3D"">
      </li>
      <li class=3D"">See common DoS Attack rebuttal<br class=3D"">
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br class=3D"">
    <b class=3D"">Pure ACK</b><b class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li class=3D"">No means to feed back congestion notifications (no =
ACKs of
        ACKs)</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
      <li class=3D"">No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better =
performance<br class=3D"">
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br class=3D"">
    <b class=3D"">Retransmission</b><b class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li class=3D"">DoS attacks</li>
      <li class=3D"">Over-reacting to congestion.<br class=3D"">
      </li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):<br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
      <li class=3D"">See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by =
recommendation
        to ignore CE on out of window packets<br class=3D"">
      </li>
      <li class=3D"">Correct to react twice to congestion in different =
RTTs<br class=3D"">
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br class=3D"">
    <b class=3D"">Window Probe</b><b class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </b><br class=3D"">
    Arguments against ECT:<br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttal:<br class=3D"">
    <ol class=3D"">
      <li class=3D"">See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
    </ol>
    <b class=3D"">FIN</b><b class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </b><br class=3D"">
    No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.<br class=3D"">
    To be discussed in next rev of draft.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <b class=3D"">RST</b><b class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </b><br class=3D"">
    No arguments against using ECT in RFCs<br class=3D"">
    To be discussed in next rev of draft.<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Cheers<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    Bob &amp; Marcelo<br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <br class=3D"">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David =
wrote:<br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362F5D88C0@MX307CL04.corp.emc.co=
m" type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
      <pre wrap=3D"" class=3D"">Marcelo and Bob,

Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my "copious =
spare time" this week ;-).

While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I =
suspect
that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of the =
TCPM WG,
as was the case for RFC 5562.

Thanks, --David
----------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA&nbsp; 01748
+1 (508) 293-7953&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:david.black@emc.com">david.black@emc.com</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
---------------------------------------------------
</pre>
      <br class=3D"">
      <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               <a =
class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"http://bobbriscoe.net/">http://bobbriscoe.net/</a></pre>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">tcpm =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:tcpm@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">tcpm@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Sat Jul 16 02:14:31 2016
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From: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] Case for ECN-capable TCP control packets: draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn
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hi Bob, all,

Interesting stuff.

There is one argument against ECN-marked control packets not appearing =
in 3168: the presence of ECT or CE marked TCP control packets is =
currently an indication of ECN signaling malfunction in the Internet, =
either due to buggy implementations or deployed boxes who still believe =
the ToS byte is the ToS byte.

In our measurement we haven't seen a lot of this (10^-5 - 10^-6 or so), =
but it seems relatively stable as long as we've been looking at it.

Allowing TCP control packets to use ECN marking will cause confusion =
between correct signaling and incorrect signaling, which makes this =
measurement methodology no longer available.

It's a minor problem, admittedly, but it will blind us to the ability to =
continue monitoring the de-deployemnt of these broken middleboxes and =
endpoints.

Cheers,

Brian

> On 15 Jul 2016, at 20:31, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
>=20
> David, [re-sending to include tsvwg & tcpm, which is what I had =
intended to do first time.]
>=20
> Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as suggested,
> And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument below.
> Pls bash the arguments.
>=20
> Summary:
> The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must not be =
ECN capable.
> This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and articulates a =
rebuttal against each one:
> draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn
> Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down every =
reason given, so that all these packets could safely be ECN-capable.
>=20
> Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before responding).
>=20
> Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet follows, =
starting with some arguments common to many:
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_________________
>=20
> Common arguments against ECT
> 	=E2=80=A2 Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> 	=E2=80=A2 DoS Attacks
> Common rebuttals (respectively):
> 	=E2=80=A2 No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control =
packet, and better performance
> 	=E2=80=A2 Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT =
for flooding. Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard control =
packets not meant to be ECT., however this would negate the benefit of =
ECT for compliant transports and seems unnecessary for the following =
reason.
> RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn off ECN =
support if under persistent overload. This makes it hard for flooding =
packets to gain from ECT, but more experiments needed to see how much =
might be gained by an attacker flying "just under the radar".
>=20
> SYN/ACK
> ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562
>=20
> SYN
> Arguments against ECT:
> 	=E2=80=A2 Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may discard =
ECT SYN or RST connection)
> 	=E2=80=A2 Loss of congestion notification due to lack of support =
for feeding back CE on SYN at the responder.
> 	=E2=80=A2 DoS attacks.
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> 	=E2=80=A2 No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but 0.6% - =
0.8% of Alexa top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit this. =
Could retransmit the SYN without ECT, and cache this knowledge to avoid =
1 RTT delay in future
> 	=E2=80=A2 Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP wire =
protocol. Solution proposed in AccECN draft: if SYN/ACK shows lack of =
support for feeding back CE on SYN (i.e. no support for AccECN) IW MUST =
be reduced conservatively as if CE on SYN (no need to be as conservative =
as drop of SYN - cannot be severe congestion as packet got through). =
Could cache this knowledge.
> 	=E2=80=A2 See common DoS Attack rebuttal
>=20
> Pure ACK
> Arguments against ECT:
> 	=E2=80=A2 Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> 	=E2=80=A2 No means to feed back congestion notifications (no =
ACKs of ACKs)
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> 	=E2=80=A2 See common unreliability rebuttal
> 	=E2=80=A2 No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better performance
>=20
> Retransmission
> Arguments against ECT:
> 	=E2=80=A2 Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> 	=E2=80=A2 DoS attacks
> 	=E2=80=A2 Over-reacting to congestion.
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> 	=E2=80=A2 See common unreliability rebuttal
> 	=E2=80=A2 See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by =
recommendation to ignore CE on out of window packets
> 	=E2=80=A2 Correct to react twice to congestion in different RTTs
>=20
> Window Probe
>=20
> Arguments against ECT:
> 	=E2=80=A2 Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> Rebuttal:
> 	=E2=80=A2 See common unreliability rebuttal
> FIN
>=20
> No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.
> To be discussed in next rev of draft.
>=20
> RST
>=20
> No arguments against using ECT in RFCs
> To be discussed in next rev of draft.
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
>=20
> Bob & Marcelo
>=20
>=20
> On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David wrote:
>> Marcelo and Bob,
>>=20
>> Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my =
"copious spare time" this week ;-).
>>=20
>> While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I =
suspect
>> that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of =
the TCPM WG,
>> as was the case for RFC 5562.
>>=20
>> Thanks, --David
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
>> EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
>> +1 (508) 293-7953     Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
>>=20
>> david.black@emc.com
>>=20
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Bob Briscoe
>> http://bobbriscoe.net/


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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tsvwg] Case for ECN-capable TCP control packets: draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn
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On Jul 16, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch> wrote:
>=20
> There is one argument against ECN-marked control packets not appearing =
in 3168: the presence of ECT or CE marked TCP control packets is =
currently an indication of ECN signaling malfunction in the Internet, =
either due to buggy implementations or deployed boxes who still believe =
the ToS byte is the ToS byte.
>=20
> In our measurement we haven't seen a lot of this (10^-5 - 10^-6 or =
so), but it seems relatively stable as long as we've been looking at it.
>=20
> Allowing TCP control packets to use ECN marking will cause confusion =
between correct signaling and incorrect signaling, which makes this =
measurement methodology no longer available.
>=20
> It's a minor problem, admittedly, but it will blind us to the ability =
to continue monitoring the de-deployemnt of these broken middleboxes and =
endpoints.

So, it isn=E2=80=99t a feature, it=E2=80=99s a bug?=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">On Jul 16, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Brian Trammell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" class=3D"">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">There is one argument against ECN-marked control =
packets not appearing in 3168: the presence of ECT or CE marked TCP =
control packets is currently an indication of ECN signaling malfunction =
in the Internet, either due to buggy implementations or deployed boxes =
who still believe the ToS byte is the ToS byte.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: =
11px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">In our measurement we haven't =
seen a lot of this (10^-5 - 10^-6 or so), but it seems relatively stable =
as long as we've been looking at it.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: =
11px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Allowing TCP control packets to use ECN marking =
will cause confusion between correct signaling and incorrect signaling, =
which makes this measurement methodology no longer available.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Menlo-Regular; font-size: 11px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: =
11px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">It's a minor problem, =
admittedly, but it will blind us to the ability to continue monitoring =
the de-deployemnt of these broken middleboxes and =
endpoints.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">So, it isn=E2=80=99t a feature, it=E2=80=99s a =
bug?</div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Case for ECN-capable TCP control packets: draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn
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Bob,

This is interesting and promising work.
It looks like it's scheduled in tcpm if time permits; let's hope time =
does permit!

David


> On Jul 15, 2016, at 20:31, Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net> wrote:
>=20
> David, [re-sending to include tsvwg & tcpm, which is what I had =
intended to do first time.]
>=20
> Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as suggested,
> And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument below.
> Pls bash the arguments.
>=20
> Summary:
> The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must not be =
ECN capable.
> This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and articulates a =
rebuttal against each one:
> draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn>
> Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down every =
reason given, so that all these packets could safely be ECN-capable.
>=20
> Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before responding).
>=20
> Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet follows, =
starting with some arguments common to many:
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_________________
>=20
> Common arguments against ECT
> Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> DoS Attacks
> Common rebuttals (respectively):
> No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control packet, and better =
performance
> Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT for flooding. =
Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard control packets not =
meant to be ECT., however this would negate the benefit of ECT for =
compliant transports and seems unnecessary for the following reason.=20
> RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn off ECN =
support if under persistent overload. This makes it hard for flooding =
packets to gain from ECT, but more experiments needed to see how much =
might be gained by an attacker flying "just under the radar".
>=20
> SYN/ACK
> ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562
>=20
> SYN
> Arguments against ECT:
> Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may discard ECT SYN or RST =
connection)
> Loss of congestion notification due to lack of support for feeding =
back CE on SYN at the responder.
> DoS attacks.
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but 0.6% - 0.8% of Alexa =
top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit this. Could retransmit =
the SYN without ECT, and cache this knowledge to avoid 1 RTT delay in =
future
> Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP wire protocol. =
Solution proposed in AccECN =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn> draft: if =
SYN/ACK shows lack of support for feeding back CE on SYN (i.e. no =
support for AccECN) IW MUST be reduced conservatively as if CE on SYN =
(no need to be as conservative as drop of SYN - cannot be severe =
congestion as packet got through). Could cache this knowledge.
> See common DoS Attack rebuttal
>=20
> Pure ACK
> Arguments against ECT:
> Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> No means to feed back congestion notifications (no ACKs of ACKs)
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> See common unreliability rebuttal
> No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better performance
>=20
> Retransmission
> Arguments against ECT:
> Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> DoS attacks
> Over-reacting to congestion.
> Rebuttals (respectively):
> See common unreliability rebuttal
> See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by recommendation to =
ignore CE on out of window packets
> Correct to react twice to congestion in different RTTs
>=20
> Window Probe
>=20
> Arguments against ECT:
> Unreliable congestion notification delivery
> Rebuttal:
> See common unreliability rebuttal
> FIN
>=20
> No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.
> To be discussed in next rev of draft.
>=20
> RST
>=20
> No arguments against using ECT in RFCs
> To be discussed in next rev of draft.
>=20
> Cheers
>=20
>=20
> Bob & Marcelo
>=20
>=20
> On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David wrote:
>> Marcelo and Bob,
>>=20
>> Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my =
"copious spare time" this week ;-).
>>=20
>> While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I =
suspect
>> that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of =
the TCPM WG,
>> as was the case for RFC 5562.
>>=20
>> Thanks, --David
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
>> EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
>> +1 (508) 293-7953     Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
>> david.black@emc.com <mailto:david.black@emc.com>       =20
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>=20
>> --=20
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/ =
<http://bobbriscoe.net/>_______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Bob,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is interesting and promising work.</div><div class="">It looks like it's scheduled in tcpm <i class="">if time permits</i>; let's hope time does permit!</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">David</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jul 15, 2016, at 20:31, Bob Briscoe &lt;<a href="mailto:ietf@bobbriscoe.net" class="">ietf@bobbriscoe.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
  
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
  
  <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
    David, [re-sending to include tsvwg &amp; tcpm, which is what I had
    intended to do first time.]<br class="">
    <br class="">
    Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as
    suggested,<br class="">
    And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument below.<br class="">
    Pls bash the arguments.<br class="">
    <br class="">
    Summary:<br class="">
    The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must not be
    ECN capable.<br class="">
    This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and articulates
    a rebuttal against each one:<br class="">
    <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn" class="">draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn</a><br class="">
    Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down every
    reason given, so that all these packets could safely be ECN-capable.<br class="">
    <br class="">
    Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before responding).<br class="">
    <br class="">
    Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet follows,
    starting with some arguments common to many:<br class="">
___________________________________________________________________________________________<br class="">
    <br class="">
    <b class="">Common arguments against ECT</b><br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li class="">DoS Attacks</li>
    </ol>
    Common rebuttals (respectively):<br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control packet, and
        better performance<br class="">
      </li>
      <li class="">Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT for
        flooding. Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard
        control packets not meant to be ECT., however this would negate
        the benefit of ECT for compliant transports and seems
        unnecessary for the following reason. <br class="">
        RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn off
        ECN support if under persistent overload. This makes it hard for
        flooding packets to gain from ECT, but more experiments needed
        to see how much might be gained by an attacker flying "just
        under the radar".<br class="">
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br class="">
    <b class="">SYN/ACK</b><b class=""><br class="">
    </b>ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562<br class="">
    <br class="">
    <b class="">SYN</b><b class=""><br class="">
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may discard ECT SYN
        or RST connection)</li>
      <li class="">Loss of congestion notification due to lack of support for
        feeding back CE on SYN at the responder.</li>
      <li class="">DoS attacks.</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):<br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but 0.6% - 0.8% of
        Alexa top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit this.
        Could retransmit the SYN without ECT, and cache this knowledge
        to avoid 1 RTT delay in future</li>
      <li class="">Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP wire
        protocol. Solution proposed in <a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn" class="">AccECN</a>
        draft: if SYN/ACK shows lack of support for feeding back CE on
        SYN (i.e. no support for AccECN) IW MUST be reduced
        conservatively as if CE on SYN (no need to be as conservative as
        drop of SYN - cannot be severe congestion as packet got
        through). Could cache this knowledge.<br class="">
      </li>
      <li class="">See common DoS Attack rebuttal<br class="">
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br class="">
    <b class="">Pure ACK</b><b class=""><br class="">
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li class="">No means to feed back congestion notifications (no ACKs of
        ACKs)</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
      <li class="">No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better performance<br class="">
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br class="">
    <b class="">Retransmission</b><b class=""><br class="">
    </b>Arguments against ECT:<br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
      <li class="">DoS attacks</li>
      <li class="">Over-reacting to congestion.<br class="">
      </li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttals (respectively):<br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
      <li class="">See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by recommendation
        to ignore CE on out of window packets<br class="">
      </li>
      <li class="">Correct to react twice to congestion in different RTTs<br class="">
      </li>
    </ol>
    <br class="">
    <b class="">Window Probe</b><b class=""><br class="">
    </b><br class="">
    Arguments against ECT:<br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">Unreliable congestion notification delivery</li>
    </ol>
    Rebuttal:<br class="">
    <ol class="">
      <li class="">See common unreliability rebuttal</li>
    </ol>
    <b class="">FIN</b><b class=""><br class="">
    </b><br class="">
    No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.<br class="">
    To be discussed in next rev of draft.<br class="">
    <br class="">
    <b class="">RST</b><b class=""><br class="">
    </b><br class="">
    No arguments against using ECT in RFCs<br class="">
    To be discussed in next rev of draft.<br class="">
    <br class="">
    Cheers<br class="">
    <br class="">
    <br class="">
    Bob &amp; Marcelo<br class="">
    <br class="">
    <br class="">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David wrote:<br class="">
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CE03DB3D7B45C245BCA0D243277949362F5D88C0@MX307CL04.corp.emc.com" type="cite" class="">
      <pre wrap="" class="">Marcelo and Bob,

Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my "copious spare time" this week ;-).

While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I suspect
that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of the TCPM WG,
as was the case for RFC 5562.

Thanks, --David
----------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA&nbsp; 01748
+1 (508) 293-7953&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:david.black@emc.com">david.black@emc.com</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
---------------------------------------------------
</pre>
      <br class="">
      <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bobbriscoe.net/">http://bobbriscoe.net/</a></pre>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br class="">tcpm mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:tcpm@ietf.org" class="">tcpm@ietf.org</a><br class="">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>
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To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Black, David" <david.black@emc.com>, tsvwg IETF list <tsvwg@ietf.org>, tcpm IETF list <tcpm@ietf.org>
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From: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>
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Cc: "draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn@ietf.org" <draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [tcpm] Case for ECN-capable TCP control packets: draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn
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Praveen,

On 16/07/16 17:13, Praveen Balasubramanian wrote:
>
> This is certainly interesting work and very relevant.
>
> Marking ECT on SYN makes sense and data shows that for schemes like 
> DCTCP, not marking SYN puts new flows establishment at a disadvantage 
> especially when schemes like Dual Q AQM are in play.
>
Not just for DCTCP.
For just normal public Internet, if the loss probability is say 0.2%, 
then 1 in 500 flows will lose the SYN and stall for a timeout when it 
starts. Given there are so many small flows, that's surprisingly often.

Nothing to do with this draft, but I've written-up some tips for 
configuring the AQM in a DC to mitigate this problem if you are not 
using ECT SYNs. See "{Note 1}" at the end.

> FIN occupies a byte in sequence number space so marking ECT on packet 
> with FIN (with or without data) seems reasonable. Marking RST is 
> probably harmless. I don’t have a strong opinion about window probes 
> and retransmissions but the consistency argument should hold unless 
> there is a demonstrable DoS attack.
>
See draft for argument about DoS.
>
> My main concern is with pure ACKs. If the receiver is a dumb reflector 
> by sending ECE upon receiving any control packet marked with CE then 
> it could interfere with “accurate ECN” like schemes. For example if 
> the application has bi-directional traffic then how would the sender 
> distinguish a ECE was in response to a mark on a data packet versus an 
> ACK packet? I am of the opinion that the receiver should not echo ECN 
> marks on pure ACK packets. Any other ideas?
>
In AccECN at the moment, we have a dumb receiver with two feedback 
methods so the sender can choose not to react to CE on Pure ACKs (or it 
can react - it has the info to do either). If the sender were to set ECT 
on pure ACKs:
i) the count of CE marked packets it would get back from the receiver in 
the ACE field would include pure ACKS
ii) the count of CE-marked bytes it would get back from the receiver in 
the (optional) ECEB field would not count marked pure ACKS (because they 
contain no bytes).

You have told me already that you don't want to use the TCP option part 
of AccECN (part (ii) above). Well, then what can I say - you can't have 
the features of the optional part you choose not to use :|
If you can work out a way to do this that suits you better, without 
adding complexity, that would save me having to!

If you don't set ECT on pure ACKs you lose the benefit of near-zero loss 
of ACKs (quantified in the draft - marginal - you just get occasional 
pauses in the clocking out of packets, then a little catch-up burst when 
the next ACK arrives).

> I think bringing this up for discussion in working group would be very 
> valuable.
>

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.



Bob

{Note 1}:
For DCTCP in your own DC, surely you can use ECT SYNs (and ECT on DNS?).

If not (why?), you can improve the situation (depending on the 
capabilities of your switches) by configuring WRED on each switch with 
two AQMs using the ECN field as the classifier between them (one for 
Not-ECT, the other for any other ECN codepoint). You can still config 
both REDs as for DCTCP with a step at K packets. And config the EWMA 
parameter of the ECN RED to zero as normal for DCTCP, but config the 
other (drop) with a higher EWMA parameter so it uses a moving average of 
the queue to determine drop. Then
a) it won't be so jumpy for drop, avoiding losing so many SYNs and DNS 
datagrams; but
b) it will still have the same threshold for marking vs drop in the 
long-run, ensuring roughly equal throughput for any long-running non-ECN 
flows.


> Thanks
>
> *From:*tcpm [mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Bob Briscoe
> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2016 11:31 AM
> *To:* Black, David <david.black@emc.com>; tsvwg IETF list 
> <tsvwg@ietf.org>; tcpm IETF list <tcpm@ietf.org>
> *Cc:* draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [tcpm] Case for ECN-capable TCP control packets: 
> draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn
>
> David, [re-sending to include tsvwg & tcpm, which is what I had 
> intended to do first time.]
>
> Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as suggested,
> And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument below.
> Pls bash the arguments.
>
> Summary:
> The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must not be 
> ECN capable.
> This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and articulates a 
> rebuttal against each one:
> draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn>
> Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down every 
> reason given, so that all these packets could safely be ECN-capable.
>
> Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before responding).
>
> Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet follows, 
> starting with some arguments common to many:
> ___________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> *Common arguments against ECT*
>
>  1. Unreliable congestion notification delivery
>  2. DoS Attacks
>
> Common rebuttals (respectively):
>
>  1. No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control packet, and
>     better performance
>  2. Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT for flooding.
>     Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard control packets
>     not meant to be ECT., however this would negate the benefit of ECT
>     for compliant transports and seems unnecessary for the following
>     reason.
>     RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn off
>     ECN support if under persistent overload. This makes it hard for
>     flooding packets to gain from ECT, but more experiments needed to
>     see how much might be gained by an attacker flying "just under the
>     radar".
>
>
> *SYN/ACK
> *ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562
>
> *SYN
> *Arguments against ECT:
>
>  1. Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may discard ECT SYN or
>     RST connection)
>  2. Loss of congestion notification due to lack of support for feeding
>     back CE on SYN at the responder.
>  3. DoS attacks.
>
> Rebuttals (respectively):
>
>  1. No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but 0.6% - 0.8% of
>     Alexa top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit this.
>     Could retransmit the SYN without ECT, and cache this knowledge to
>     avoid 1 RTT delay in future
>  2. Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP wire protocol.
>     Solution proposed in AccECN
>     <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn> draft:
>     if SYN/ACK shows lack of support for feeding back CE on SYN (i.e.
>     no support for AccECN) IW MUST be reduced conservatively as if CE
>     on SYN (no need to be as conservative as drop of SYN - cannot be
>     severe congestion as packet got through). Could cache this knowledge.
>  3. See common DoS Attack rebuttal
>
>
> *Pure ACK
> *Arguments against ECT:
>
>  1. Unreliable congestion notification delivery
>  2. No means to feed back congestion notifications (no ACKs of ACKs)
>
> Rebuttals (respectively):
>
>  1. See common unreliability rebuttal
>  2. No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better performance
>
>
> *Retransmission
> *Arguments against ECT:
>
>  1. Unreliable congestion notification delivery
>  2. DoS attacks
>  3. Over-reacting to congestion.
>
> Rebuttals (respectively):
>
>  1. See common unreliability rebuttal
>  2. See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by recommendation to
>     ignore CE on out of window packets
>  3. Correct to react twice to congestion in different RTTs
>
>
> *Window Probe
> *
> Arguments against ECT:
>
>  1. Unreliable congestion notification delivery
>
> Rebuttal:
>
>  1. See common unreliability rebuttal
>
> *FIN
> *
> No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.
> To be discussed in next rev of draft.
>
> *RST
> *
> No arguments against using ECT in RFCs
> To be discussed in next rev of draft.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Bob & Marcelo
>
> On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David wrote:
>
>     Marcelo and Bob,
>
>     Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my "copious spare time" this week ;-).
>
>     While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I suspect
>
>     that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of the TCPM WG,
>
>     as was the case for RFC 5562.
>
>     Thanks, --David
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------
>
>     David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
>
>     EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
>
>     +1 (508) 293-7953     Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754
>
>     david.black@emc.com <mailto:david.black@emc.com>         
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>     -- 
>
>     ________________________________________________________________
>
>     Bob Briscoehttp://bobbriscoe.net/
>

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/


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    Praveen,<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 16/07/16 17:13, Praveen
      Balasubramanian wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">This
            is certainly interesting work and very relevant.
            <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">Marking
            ECT on SYN makes sense and data shows that for schemes like
            DCTCP, not marking SYN puts new flows establishment at a
            disadvantage especially when schemes like Dual Q AQM are in
            play. </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Not just for DCTCP. <br>
    For just normal public Internet, if the loss probability is say
    0.2%, then 1 in 500 flows will lose the SYN and stall for a timeout
    when it starts. Given there are so many small flows, that's
    surprisingly often.<br>
    <br>
    Nothing to do with this draft, but I've written-up some tips for
    configuring the AQM in a DC to mitigate this problem if you are not
    using ECT SYNs. See "{Note 1}" at the end.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:BN1PR03MB008869F87113A749F089AB9B6340@BN1PR03MB008.namprd03.prod.outlook.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">FIN
            occupies a byte in sequence number space so marking ECT on
            packet with FIN (with or without data) seems reasonable.
            Marking RST is probably harmless. I don’t have a strong
            opinion about window probes and retransmissions but the
            consistency argument should hold unless there is a
            demonstrable DoS attack. </span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    See draft for argument about DoS.<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:BN1PR03MB008869F87113A749F089AB9B6340@BN1PR03MB008.namprd03.prod.outlook.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">My
            main concern is with pure ACKs. If the receiver is a dumb
            reflector by sending ECE upon receiving any control packet
            marked with CE then it could interfere with “accurate ECN”
            like schemes. For example if the application has
            bi-directional traffic then how would the sender distinguish
            a ECE was in response to a mark on a data packet versus an
            ACK packet? I am of the opinion that the receiver should not
            echo ECN marks on pure ACK packets. Any other ideas?</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    In AccECN at the moment, we have a dumb receiver with two feedback
    methods so the sender can choose not to react to CE on Pure ACKs (or
    it can react - it has the info to do either). If the sender were to
    set ECT on pure ACKs:<br>
    i) the count of CE marked packets it would get back from the
    receiver in the ACE field would include pure ACKS<br>
    ii) the count of CE-marked bytes it would get back from the receiver
    in the (optional) ECEB field would not count marked pure ACKS
    (because they contain no bytes).<br>
    <br>
    You have told me already that you don't want to use the TCP option
    part of AccECN (part (ii) above). Well, then what can I say - you
    can't have the features of the optional part you choose not to use
    :|<br>
    If you can work out a way to do this that suits you better, without
    adding complexity, that would save me having to!<br>
    <br>
    If you don't set ECT on pure ACKs you lose the benefit of near-zero
    loss of ACKs (quantified in the draft - marginal - you just get
    occasional pauses in the clocking out of packets, then a little
    catch-up burst when the next ACK arrives).<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:BN1PR03MB008869F87113A749F089AB9B6340@BN1PR03MB008.namprd03.prod.outlook.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">I
            think bringing this up for discussion in working group would
            be very valuable.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Bob<br>
    <br>
    {Note 1}:<br>
    For DCTCP in your own DC, surely you can use ECT SYNs (and ECT on
    DNS?). <br>
    <br>
    If not (why?), you can improve the situation (depending on the
    capabilities of your switches) by configuring WRED on each switch
    with two AQMs using the ECN field as the classifier between them
    (one for Not-ECT, the other for any other ECN codepoint). You can
    still config both REDs as for DCTCP with a step at K packets. And
    config the EWMA parameter of the ECN RED to zero as normal for
    DCTCP, but config the other (drop) with a higher EWMA parameter so
    it uses a moving average of the queue to determine drop. Then <br>
    a) it won't be so jumpy for drop, avoiding losing so many SYNs and
    DNS datagrams; but<br>
    b) it will still have the same threshold for marking vs drop in the
    long-run, ensuring roughly equal throughput for any long-running
    non-ECN flows.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:BN1PR03MB008869F87113A749F089AB9B6340@BN1PR03MB008.namprd03.prod.outlook.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
            1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:windowtext">
                tcpm [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Briscoe<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 15, 2016 11:31 AM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Black, David <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:david.black@emc.com">&lt;david.black@emc.com&gt;</a>;
                tsvwg IETF list <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tsvwg@ietf.org">&lt;tsvwg@ietf.org&gt;</a>; tcpm IETF list
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tcpm@ietf.org">&lt;tcpm@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn@ietf.org">draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> [tcpm] Case for ECN-capable TCP control
                packets: draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">David, [re-sending to include tsvwg &amp;
          tcpm, which is what I had intended to do first time.]<br>
          <br>
          Here's a heads-up for tsvwg, plus cross-posting to tcpm as
          suggested,<br>
          And for a fast read, there's a summary of every argument
          below.<br>
          Pls bash the arguments.<br>
          <br>
          Summary:<br>
          The ECN spec [RFC 3168] says various TCP control packets must
          not be ECN capable.<br>
          This draft lays out each argument given in the RFCs, and
          articulates a rebuttal against each one:<br>
          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
            href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn">draft-bagnulo-tsvwg-generalized-ecn</a><br>
          Subject to some more experiments, we think this knocks down
          every reason given, so that all these packets could safely be
          ECN-capable.<br>
          <br>
          Pls read the draft for more details (preferably before
          responding).<br>
          <br>
          Enumeration of arguments about each type of control packet
          follows, starting with some arguments common to many:<br>
___________________________________________________________________________________________<br>
          <br>
          <b>Common arguments against ECT</b><o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            Unreliable congestion notification delivery<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
            level1 lfo1">
            DoS Attacks<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Common rebuttals (respectively):<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l8
            level1 lfo2">
            No worse than undetectable loss of Not-ECT control packet,
            and better performance<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l8
            level1 lfo2">
            Mandating Not-ECT does not stop attackers using ECT for
            flooding. Nonetheless, it would allow firewalls to discard
            control packets not meant to be ECT., however this would
            negate the benefit of ECT for compliant transports and seems
            unnecessary for the following reason. <br>
            RFC3168 (Sec.7) and RFC7567 (Sec.4.2.1) say an AQM MUST turn
            off ECN support if under persistent overload. This makes it
            hard for flooding packets to gain from ECT, but more
            experiments needed to see how much might be gained by an
            attacker flying "just under the radar".<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          <b>SYN/ACK<br>
          </b>ECT on SYN/ACK already justified in RFC5562<br>
          <br>
          <b>SYN<br>
          </b>Arguments against ECT:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l9
            level1 lfo3">
            Unknown ECN capability at the responder (may discard ECT SYN
            or RST connection)<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l9
            level1 lfo3">
            Loss of congestion notification due to lack of support for
            feeding back CE on SYN at the responder.<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l9
            level1 lfo3">
            DoS attacks.<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Rebuttals (respectively):<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5
            level1 lfo4">
            No RFC mandates these responder behaviours, but 0.6% - 0.8%
            of Alexa top 1M Web sites (or their network paths) exhibit
            this. Could retransmit the SYN without ECT, and cache this
            knowledge to avoid 1 RTT delay in future<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5
            level1 lfo4">
            Support for CE feedback in SYN needed in the TCP wire
            protocol. Solution proposed in
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn">AccECN</a>
            draft: if SYN/ACK shows lack of support for feeding back CE
            on SYN (i.e. no support for AccECN) IW MUST be reduced
            conservatively as if CE on SYN (no need to be as
            conservative as drop of SYN - cannot be severe congestion as
            packet got through). Could cache this knowledge.<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l5
            level1 lfo4">
            See common DoS Attack rebuttal<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          <b>Pure ACK<br>
          </b>Arguments against ECT:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4
            level1 lfo5">
            Unreliable congestion notification delivery<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l4
            level1 lfo5">
            No means to feed back congestion notifications (no ACKs of
            ACKs)<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Rebuttals (respectively): <o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l6
            level1 lfo6">
            See common unreliability rebuttal<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l6
            level1 lfo6">
            No worse than drop of Pure ACK, and better performance<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          <b>Retransmission<br>
          </b>Arguments against ECT:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
            level1 lfo7">
            Unreliable congestion notification delivery<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
            level1 lfo7">
            DoS attacks<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l3
            level1 lfo7">
            Over-reacting to congestion.<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Rebuttals (respectively):<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
            level1 lfo8">
            See common unreliability rebuttal<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
            level1 lfo8">
            See common DoS Attack rebuttal, complemented by
            recommendation to ignore CE on out of window packets<o:p></o:p></li>
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1
            level1 lfo8">
            Correct to react twice to congestion in different RTTs<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
          <b>Window Probe<br>
          </b><br>
          Arguments against ECT:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2
            level1 lfo9">
            Unreliable congestion notification delivery<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Rebuttal:<o:p></o:p></p>
        <ol start="1" type="1">
          <li class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l7
            level1 lfo10">
            See common unreliability rebuttal<o:p></o:p></li>
        </ol>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>FIN<br>
          </b><br>
          No arguments against using ECT in RFCs.<br>
          To be discussed in next rev of draft.<br>
          <br>
          <b>RST<br>
          </b><br>
          No arguments against using ECT in RFCs<br>
          To be discussed in next rev of draft.<br>
          <br>
          Cheers<br>
          <br>
          <br>
          Bob &amp; Marcelo<br>
          <br>
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">On 11/07/16 21:28, Black, David wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
        </div>
        <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
          <pre>Marcelo and Bob,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Interesting draft - I need to read it in more detail ... in my "copious spare time" this week ;-).<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>While it is of interest to TSVWG, as general ECN work happens here, I suspect<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>that as a proposed modification to TCP it would be in the domain of the TCPM WG,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>as was the case for RFC 5562.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
          <pre>Thanks, --David<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>----------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>+1 (508) 293-7953     Cell: +1 (978) 394-7754<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:david.black@emc.com">david.black@emc.com</a>        <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>---------------------------------------------------<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>________________________________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Bob Briscoe                               <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://bobbriscoe.net/">http://bobbriscoe.net/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bobbriscoe.net/">http://bobbriscoe.net/</a></pre>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Review of draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp-01
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, "draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp@tools.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Some comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp
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Sorry for the late response. Inline prefixed with <Praveen>. The next updat=
e to the draft will include these changes.

-----Original Message-----
From: tcpm [mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Scharf, Michael (Nok=
ia - DE)
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 8:25 PM
To: draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp@tools.ietf.org
Cc: tcpm@ietf.org Extensions <tcpm@ietf.org>
Subject: [tcpm] Some comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp

Dear authors,

As individual contributor to TCPM, I have read -01 of the DCTCP draft and I=
've run into some minor issues:

* Section 1: I think the following wording was discussed already in the pas=
t:

   It is recommended that DCTCP be deployed in a datacenter environment
   where the endpoints and the switching fabric are under a single
   administrative domain.  This protocol is not meant for uncontrolled
   deployment in the global Internet.

  Reading the document again, I'd prefer a wording that would not generally=
 recommend DCTCP to all single domain datacenter environments. The smallest=
 change I could think of would be to add the word "only":
  =20
   It is recommended that DCTCP be only deployed in a datacenter environmen=
t
   where the endpoints and the switching fabric are under a single
   administrative domain.  This protocol is not meant for uncontrolled
   deployment in the global Internet.

<Praveen> fixed


* Section 2+3: This is an informative document so RFC 2119 should be used w=
ith care, if at all. My impression is that at least some use of RFC 2119 la=
nguage could be avoided. Examples:

    Section 3.1: "Therefore, sender and receiver MUST NOT assume that a par=
ticular marking algorithm is implemented by the switching fabric."

    =3D> I think an implementation of DCTCP inherently follows this and thi=
s does not require RFC 2119 statements.

<Praveen> Fair enough. I will rephrase this to say lowercase should not.

    Section 3.3: "The congestion estimator on the sender MUST process accep=
table ACKs as follows:"

    =3D> This is a sender-side algorithm that relies on internal TCP state =
variables. I am not sure if an implementation really has to implement the a=
lgorithm exactly in this way or if slight variations could yield the same r=
esult. A "MUST" on the exact algorithm seems a bit restrictive in that case=
. =20

<Praveen> As Lars pointed out this is already violated in the Linux impleme=
ntation. I am changing this to SHOULD.


    (... possibly more ...)

* Section 4: This section discusses both discusses implementation issues fo=
r DCTCP as well as further TCP tuning that may be used in combination with =
DCTCP (lower MinRTO, cwnd idle, ...) but that is not tightly related to the=
 actual DCTCP protocol mechanisms. Also, partly related to this, Section 4 =
is a relatively long text without subsections. I think that Section 4 could=
 be better structured, e.g., by adding two or three subsection distinguishi=
ng DCTCP implementation from other (related) implementation guidance. The a=
ctual content may not require rewording, except possibly some reordering of=
 paragraphs.

<Praveen> Yes the discussion of minrto, delack timeout and cwnd restart is =
confusing and not strictly needed in a RFC focused on DCTCP. I am removing =
these 2 paragraphs and after this the section is shorter and I think does n=
ot need sub-sections.=20


* Section 5: I am not sure if the following comment on UDP is compatible wi=
th draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis-12:

   If the datacenter traffic consists
   of such traffic (including UDP), one possible mitigation would be to
   mark IP packets as ECT even when there is no transport that is
   reacting to the marking.

  Also, I don't fully understand the contect, e.g., what marking/drop profi=
les are here referred to. Maybe some additional explanation could help. As =
far as I know, this can be quite device-specific, e.g., many routers would =
allow separate queues for non-TCP/non-IP traffic. In any case, the handling=
 of UDP seems to me rather unrelated to DCTCP, right? If this is considered=
 useful information for potential implementers, Section 5 should also be be=
tter structured into DCTCP deployment issues and other related deployment e=
xperiences in environments running DCTCP.

<Praveen> I am changing this text to suggest that deployments must take int=
o account segregation of non-TCP traffic and use schemes to ensure such tra=
ffic does not suffer by being on the same queue as DCTCP traffic.

Thanks

Michael

_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
tcpm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


From nobody Sun Jul 17 23:54:27 2016
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Subject: [tcpm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions of the IETF.

        Title           : Datacenter TCP (DCTCP): TCP Congestion Control for Datacenters
        Authors         : Stephen Bensley
                          Lars Eggert
                          Dave Thaler
                          Praveen Balasubramanian
                          Glenn Judd
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp-02.txt
	Pages           : 14
	Date            : 2016-07-17

Abstract:
   This informational memo describes Datacenter TCP (DCTCP), an
   improvement to TCP congestion control for datacenter traffic.  DCTCP
   uses improved Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) processing to
   estimate the fraction of bytes that encounter congestion, rather than
   simply detecting that some congestion has occurred.  DCTCP then
   scales the TCP congestion window based on this estimate.  This method
   achieves high burst tolerance, low latency, and high throughput with
   shallow-buffered switches.  This memo also discusses deployment
   issues related to the coexistence of DCTCP and conventional TCP, the
   lack of a negotiating mechanism between sender and receiver, and
   presents some possible mitigations.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Some comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp
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On 7/17/2016 1:27 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian wrote:
>   Reading the document again, I'd prefer a wording that would not generally recommend DCTCP to all single domain datacenter environments. The smallest change I could think of would be to add the word "only":
>    
>    It is recommended that DCTCP be only deployed in a datacenter environment
>    where the endpoints and the switching fabric are under a single
>    administrative domain.  This protocol is not meant for uncontrolled
>    deployment in the global Internet.
FWIW, the word "only should be relocated. In its location above, it
implies that DCTCP should be only deployed, not something else (e.g.,
not operated, talked about, etc.).

If you intend to use "only" to constrain location, it has to precede the
location clause as follows:

     It is recommended that DCTCP be deployed only in a ...

Joe



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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WG acceptance of draft-cheng-tcpm-rack-01
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Subject: [tcpm] WG acceptance of draft-cheng-tcpm-rack-01
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Hi all,

Yesterday we had uniform consensus in the room to adopt draft-cheng-tcpm-ra=
ck-01 as a new TCPM working group item. As a remark, the support was the st=
rongest I have recently seen in TCPM.=20

Therefore I'd like to confirm on the list that it is working group consensu=
s to add a new milestone to the TCPM charter

  Submit document on a time-based fast loss detection algorithm for TCP (RA=
CK) to the IESG for publication as an Experimental RFC

and to use draft-cheng-tcpm-rack-01 as a starting point.

Two additional notes:

- It has been mentioned that further experimentation is needed e.g. regardi=
ng the parameters and therefore the suggested status is Experimental

- It has been proposed to also document TLP in this document as it is timer=
-based mechanism as well

If you have any feedback or suggestions, please let us know in the next two=
 weeks.

Thanks

Michael


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From: Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 11:08:58 +0200
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To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
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Subject: [tcpm] Eifel on Windows stack
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First thanks for the presentation on W stack. For years it has remained
mysterious for many of us (at least myself). We had to use inference
technique to find Windows settings if they are not clearly publicly
documented. (e.g., delayed-ACK timeout)

Does Windows support RFC4015 and RFC3522, ie. cwnd undo, aka Eifel?

I am curiously its support in Windows (as well FreeBSD). TCP undo is one of
the most complicated esoteric code in Linux. It is somewhat helpful using
the TS-opt approach. The DSACK approach is not that useful but is more
complicated.

Also does Windows use the standard RTO formula (RFC6298)?

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<div dir=3D"ltr">First thanks for the presentation on W stack. For years it=
 has remained mysterious for many of us (at least myself). We had to use in=
ference technique to find Windows settings if they are not clearly publicly=
 documented. (e.g., delayed-ACK timeout)<div><br></div><div>Does Windows su=
pport RFC4015 and RFC3522, ie. cwnd undo, aka Eifel?</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>I am curiously its support in Windows (as well FreeBSD).=C2=A0TCP undo i=
s one of the most complicated esoteric code in Linux. It is somewhat helpfu=
l using the TS-opt approach. The DSACK approach is not that useful but is m=
ore complicated.</div><div><br></div><div>Also does Windows use the standar=
d RTO formula (RFC6298)?</div></div>

--001a1144535cc5ce490537f97132--


From nobody Tue Jul 19 09:23:23 2016
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Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 09:22:46 -0700
From: hiren panchasara <hiren@strugglingcoder.info>
To: Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Eifel on Windows stack
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(Quoting relevant message)
On 07/19/16 at 11:08P, Yuchung Cheng wrote:
> Does Windows support RFC4015 and RFC3522, ie. cwnd undo, aka Eifel?
>=20
> I am curiously its support in Windows (as well FreeBSD).

AFAIK, FreeBSD doesn't support Eifel detection/response.

Cheers,
Hiren

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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp@tools.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tcpm] Some comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Some comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp
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Thanks for addressing my review. In general, I believe my concerns are suff=
iciently sorted out.

I am not a native speaker and thus I cannot really comment on Joe's remark =
regarding the location of the word "only".

<chair hat on>
>From a procedural perspective, I want to note that the new Terminology sect=
ion contains new some wording:

   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
   document are to be interpreted as described in [RFC2119].  Normative
   language is used to describe how necessary the various aspects of the
   Microsoft implementation are for interoperability, but even compliant
   implementations without the measures in sections 4-6 would still only
   be safe to deploy in controlled environments.

I have no particular suggestion how to change that wording but I want to en=
sure the WG is aware of this use of RFC 2199.
</chair hat on>

Michael


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Praveen Balasubramanian [mailto:pravb@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2016 10:27 PM
> To: Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE); draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp@tools.ietf.org
> Cc: tcpm@ietf.org Extensions; lars@netapp.com
> Subject: RE: [tcpm] Some comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp
>=20
> Sorry for the late response. Inline prefixed with <Praveen>. The next
> update to the draft will include these changes.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcpm [mailto:tcpm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Scharf, Michael
> (Nokia - DE)
> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2016 8:25 PM
> To: draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp@tools.ietf.org
> Cc: tcpm@ietf.org Extensions <tcpm@ietf.org>
> Subject: [tcpm] Some comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-dctcp
>=20
> Dear authors,
>=20
> As individual contributor to TCPM, I have read -01 of the DCTCP draft
> and I've run into some minor issues:
>=20
> * Section 1: I think the following wording was discussed already in the
> past:
>=20
>    It is recommended that DCTCP be deployed in a datacenter environment
>    where the endpoints and the switching fabric are under a single
>    administrative domain.  This protocol is not meant for uncontrolled
>    deployment in the global Internet.
>=20
>   Reading the document again, I'd prefer a wording that would not
> generally recommend DCTCP to all single domain datacenter environments.
> The smallest change I could think of would be to add the word "only":
>=20
>    It is recommended that DCTCP be only deployed in a datacenter
> environment
>    where the endpoints and the switching fabric are under a single
>    administrative domain.  This protocol is not meant for uncontrolled
>    deployment in the global Internet.
>=20
> <Praveen> fixed
>=20
>=20
> * Section 2+3: This is an informative document so RFC 2119 should be
> used with care, if at all. My impression is that at least some use of
> RFC 2119 language could be avoided. Examples:
>=20
>     Section 3.1: "Therefore, sender and receiver MUST NOT assume that a
> particular marking algorithm is implemented by the switching fabric."
>=20
>     =3D> I think an implementation of DCTCP inherently follows this and
> this does not require RFC 2119 statements.
>=20
> <Praveen> Fair enough. I will rephrase this to say lowercase should
> not.
>=20
>     Section 3.3: "The congestion estimator on the sender MUST process
> acceptable ACKs as follows:"
>=20
>     =3D> This is a sender-side algorithm that relies on internal TCP
> state variables. I am not sure if an implementation really has to
> implement the algorithm exactly in this way or if slight variations
> could yield the same result. A "MUST" on the exact algorithm seems a
> bit restrictive in that case.
>=20
> <Praveen> As Lars pointed out this is already violated in the Linux
> implementation. I am changing this to SHOULD.
>=20
>=20
>     (... possibly more ...)
>=20
> * Section 4: This section discusses both discusses implementation
> issues for DCTCP as well as further TCP tuning that may be used in
> combination with DCTCP (lower MinRTO, cwnd idle, ...) but that is not
> tightly related to the actual DCTCP protocol mechanisms. Also, partly
> related to this, Section 4 is a relatively long text without
> subsections. I think that Section 4 could be better structured, e.g.,
> by adding two or three subsection distinguishing DCTCP implementation
> from other (related) implementation guidance. The actual content may
> not require rewording, except possibly some reordering of paragraphs.
>=20
> <Praveen> Yes the discussion of minrto, delack timeout and cwnd restart
> is confusing and not strictly needed in a RFC focused on DCTCP. I am
> removing these 2 paragraphs and after this the section is shorter and I
> think does not need sub-sections.
>=20
>=20
> * Section 5: I am not sure if the following comment on UDP is
> compatible with draft-ietf-tsvwg-rfc5405bis-12:
>=20
>    If the datacenter traffic consists
>    of such traffic (including UDP), one possible mitigation would be to
>    mark IP packets as ECT even when there is no transport that is
>    reacting to the marking.
>=20
>   Also, I don't fully understand the contect, e.g., what marking/drop
> profiles are here referred to. Maybe some additional explanation could
> help. As far as I know, this can be quite device-specific, e.g., many
> routers would allow separate queues for non-TCP/non-IP traffic. In any
> case, the handling of UDP seems to me rather unrelated to DCTCP, right?
> If this is considered useful information for potential implementers,
> Section 5 should also be better structured into DCTCP deployment issues
> and other related deployment experiences in environments running DCTCP.
>=20
> <Praveen> I am changing this text to suggest that deployments must take
> into account segregation of non-TCP traffic and use schemes to ensure
> such traffic does not suffer by being on the same queue as DCTCP
> traffic.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Michael
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


From nobody Wed Jul 20 14:03:23 2016
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 23:03:57 +0200
From: "Carles Gomez Montenegro" <carlesgo@entel.upc.edu>
To: tcpm@ietf.org
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Subject: [tcpm] About long TCP connections for energy-constrained devices
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Hello,

(First of all, and once again, thanks a lot for the great feedback
received about draft-gomez-core-tcp-constrained-node-networks-00.)

I would like to clarify one aspect with regard to a comment that was made
during the tcpm session on Monday. The comment was that "it is not a good
idea to keep long TCP connections for energy-constrained devices".

If an energy-constrained device does not use any energy saving mechanism,
the above statement is indeed correct. However, it is expected that such
devices will use techniques such as radio duty-cycling (often related with
MAC layer behavior) [1], which allow e.g. multiyear lifetime for devices
powered by a coin cell battery (of course, assuming the relatively
infrequent communication pattern typical of constrained node networks, and
with appropriate configuration).

Best regards,

Carles

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lwig-energy-efficient-04


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Subject: Re: [tcpm] About long TCP connections for energy-constrained devices
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On 7/20/2016 2:03 PM, Carles Gomez Montenegro wrote:
> Hello,
>
> (First of all, and once again, thanks a lot for the great feedback
> received about draft-gomez-core-tcp-constrained-node-networks-00.)
>
> I would like to clarify one aspect with regard to a comment that was made
> during the tcpm session on Monday. The comment was that "it is not a good
> idea to keep long TCP connections for energy-constrained devices".
>
> If an energy-constrained device does not use any energy saving mechanism,
> the above statement is indeed correct. However, it is expected that such
> devices will use techniques such as radio duty-cycling (often related with
> MAC layer behavior) [1], which allow e.g. multiyear lifetime for devices
> powered by a coin cell battery (of course, assuming the relatively
> infrequent communication pattern typical of constrained node networks, and
> with appropriate configuration).
Idle TCP, without keepalives activated, is just state. Keeping it
"alive" doesn't "require" anything on such a device except low (or
no)-energy memory (e.g., flash).

The only issue is whether the device wants to continue interacting - it
is that desire, not anything about TCP, which would require leaving the
receive radio active.

Joe


From nobody Fri Jul 22 02:20:48 2016
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To: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
From: Bob Briscoe <research@bobbriscoe.net>
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Subject: [tcpm] Another requirement that L4S/TCPPrague depends on
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Marcelo,

We need to add this I-D to the list of requirements that TCP Prague will 
have to depend on - in the L4S Problem Statement (assuming it could turn 
into an L4S architecture draft).

A Mechanism for ECN Path Probing and Fallback
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kuehlewind-tcpm-ecn-fallback-01

Just asked one of the authors (Mirja). She says it has some wrong stuff 
in it, so it will need updating quite a bit anyway.
And it will need to be updated wrt L4S changes.

The probing and fall-back logic relevant to AccECN is already in 
draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn, which will have to be a prerequisite for 
L4S in TCP.

Nonetheless, this draft is broader than AccECN, and broader than L4S:
* It ought to cover any transport, not just TCP.
* And even in the case of TCP, it covers Classic ECN
* and even in the case of TCP Prague, it would cover the fall-back 
behaviour of the sending handler (at either end of a TCP connection), 
because that was ruled out of scope for AccECN.



Bob

-- 
________________________________________________________________
Bob Briscoe                               http://bobbriscoe.net/


From nobody Sat Jul 23 12:37:23 2016
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From: Pasi Sarolahti <pasi.sarolahti@iki.fi>
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Hi,

The meeting notes from Berlin are at =
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/minutes/minutes-96-tcpm . Please =
tell tcpm-chairs if there are errors or if we missed something.

Thanks to Gorry and Brian for excellent note taking!

- Pasi


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Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 10:18:00 -0700
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 4:45 PM, Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org> wrote:
>
> In the absence of a TFO cookie, what is the behavior of TCP in the presen=
ce of data in the SYN packet? The ability of ENO to send early data on sess=
ion resumption to servers that potentially don't understand ENO depends on =
the servers throwing this data away so it can be replaced in the following =
ACK.
>
> RFC 4987 section 3.5 (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4987#section-3.5) st=
ates that:
>
> q( If data accompanies the SYN segment, then this data is not
>    acknowledged or stored by the receiver, and will require
>    retransmission. )
>
> But I have read elsewhere that the server might queue it up and wait for =
the 3WHS to complete (though if it is conformant, it will ACK only a single=
 byte for the SYN and have the blob retransmitted by the client anyway).

We did some tests with this when during TFO development. AFAIK Linux,
*BSD/iOS, Windows all return a SYN that acks only the ISN but not the
data. None of them queues the data hence the active side needs to
retransmit the data. But my knowledge is 5 years old.

FWIW I and other TFO developers in other stacks (cc'd) have all found
that some middle-boxes will crash or hang on receiving SYN-data
(regardless of TFO cookie option or not). For instance, I found a bug
in Linux netfliter that the conntrack module assumes SYN never carries
data, so the internal sequence was only incremented by one on SYN-data
packe, and led to rejecting every packet afterward. Others have found
FW blocking the IP completely (see last meetings material by Praveen).
We were talking about putting a TFO-bis on these issues.

>
> I guess I'm interested in both normative and observed behavior. I'm happy=
 to inquire elsewhere if someone has a suggestion. (tcpm?)
>
> Kyle
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tcpinc mailing list
> Tcpinc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpinc


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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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--94eb2c08ca7c148b8c0538912ca5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

> > But I have read elsewhere that the server might queue it up and wait for
> the 3WHS to complete (though if it is conformant, it will ACK only a single
> byte for the SYN and have the blob retransmitted by the client anyway).
>
> We did some tests with this when during TFO development. AFAIK Linux,
> *BSD/iOS, Windows all return a SYN that acks only the ISN but not the
> data. None of them queues the data hence the active side needs to
> retransmit the data. But my knowledge is 5 years old.
>

Which naturally makes me curious if this behavior has changed since TFO was
implemented. What sort of tools do/did you have to do this kind of probing?


> FWIW I and other TFO developers in other stacks (cc'd) have all found
> that some middle-boxes will crash or hang on receiving SYN-data
> (regardless of TFO cookie option or not). For instance, I found a bug
> in Linux netfliter that the conntrack module assumes SYN never carries
> data, so the internal sequence was only incremented by one on SYN-data
> packe, and led to rejecting every packet afterward. Others have found
> FW blocking the IP completely (see last meetings material by Praveen).
> We were talking about putting a TFO-bis on these issues.
>

This is really good information: thanks! I think if tcpinc decides to
pursue early data, we'll want to learn as much as possible from your
experience.

Kyle

--94eb2c08ca7c148b8c0538912ca5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><span class=3D""></span><span class=3D""></span><br><span =
class=3D""></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><span class=3D"">
&gt; But I have read elsewhere that the server might queue it up and wait f=
or the 3WHS to complete (though if it is conformant, it will ACK only a sin=
gle byte for the SYN and have the blob retransmitted by the client anyway).=
<br>
<br>
</span>We did some tests with this when during TFO development. AFAIK Linux=
,<br>
*BSD/iOS, Windows all return a SYN that acks only the ISN but not the<br>
data. None of them queues the data hence the active side needs to<br>
retransmit the data. But my knowledge is 5 years old.<br></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>Which naturally makes me curious if this behavior has =
changed since TFO was implemented. What sort of tools do/did you have to do=
 this kind of probing?<br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div>
FWIW I and other TFO developers in other stacks (cc&#39;d) have all found<b=
r>
that some middle-boxes will crash or hang on receiving SYN-data<br>
(regardless of TFO cookie option or not). For instance, I found a bug<br>
in Linux netfliter that the conntrack module assumes SYN never carries<br>
data, so the internal sequence was only incremented by one on SYN-data<br>
packe, and led to rejecting every packet afterward. Others have found<br>
FW blocking the IP completely (see last meetings material by Praveen).<br>
We were talking about putting a TFO-bis on these issues.<br>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is really good information: tha=
nks! I think if tcpinc decides to pursue early data, we&#39;ll want to lear=
n as much as possible from your experience.<br><br></div><div>Kyle<br></div=
><div><br></div></div></div></div>

--94eb2c08ca7c148b8c0538912ca5--


From nobody Wed Jul 27 10:35:14 2016
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org> writes:

> This is really good information: thanks! I think if tcpinc decides to
> pursue early data, we'll want to learn as much as possible from your
> experience.

So just to scope what we had in mind, "pursue early data" sounds a bit
aggressive.  What I think we had in mind is just saying something about
what receivers MUST do when receiving a SYN segment with data, not
encouraging people to do that.

Since TFO will eventually cause people to address these middlebox
issues, it would be nice to avoid creating a second round of problems
where TCP-ENO implementations also crash or do weird stuff.  And it
would also be nice if TCP-ENO didn't disable this possible optimization.

What I had in mind was something along the lines of saying that the last
TEP suboption in host A's SYN segment is the SYN TEP, and that host B
MUST ignore and MUST NOT ACK any data in SYN segments unless the
negotiated TEP is the SYN TEP and that TEP explicitly defines the use of
data in SYN segments.  Furthermore, SYN data MUST be discarded in the
event that TCP-ENO is disabled, even when such data has already been
ACKed.  TEPs MAY define the use of data in SYN segments for when they
are the SYN TEP, but SHOULD limit such usage to cases in which it is
known that the passive opener and network path both support ENO.

David


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From: Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 14:11:28 -0400
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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--001a11493a044599260538a1f2b8
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On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 1:35 PM, David Mazieres <
dm-list-tcpcrypt@scs.stanford.edu> wrote:

> What I had in mind was something along the lines of saying that the last
> TEP suboption in host A's SYN segment is the SYN TEP, and that host B
> MUST ignore and MUST NOT ACK any data in SYN segments unless the
> negotiated TEP is the SYN TEP and that TEP explicitly defines the use of
> data in SYN segments.  Furthermore, SYN data MUST be discarded in the
> event that TCP-ENO is disabled, even when such data has already been
> ACKed.  TEPs MAY define the use of data in SYN segments for when they
> are the SYN TEP, but SHOULD limit such usage to cases in which it is
> known that the passive opener and network path both support ENO.
>

It's interoperability with older stacks that drove my question: if there
are multiple machines behind an IP, some of which support ENO and some of
which don't, do we break the charter by sending *any* data in the SYN
(outside of TFO, which as we've established is unusable for tcpinc)?

The charter says: q( The protocol must gracefully fall-back to TCP if the
remote peer does not support the proposed extensions. )

If TCP's behavior in the absence of a TFO cookie is to discard data in the
SYN, normatively and (especially) observationally, then your second
sentence ("Furthermore, SYN data MUST be dscarded...") is true when a host
doesn't support ENO, and so we can safely put whatever we like in the SYN.

If not, then unexpected data in the SYN *might* be forwarded to the
application as garbage by some TCP stacks, resulting in mostly-undefined
behavior but almost certainly connection breakage; in that case, do we need
some explicit signaling from the server on a prior connection for when SYN
data on resumption attempts is okay, or is "...but SHOULD limit such
usage..." good enough?

Kyle

--001a11493a044599260538a1f2b8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 1:35 PM, David Mazieres <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dm-list-tcpcrypt@scs.stanf=
ord.edu">dm-list-tcpcrypt@scs.stanford.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" =
class=3D"gmail_quote">What I had in mind was something along the lines of s=
aying that the last<br>
TEP suboption in host A&#39;s SYN segment is the SYN TEP, and that host B<b=
r>
MUST ignore and MUST NOT ACK any data in SYN segments unless the<br>
negotiated TEP is the SYN TEP and that TEP explicitly defines the use of<br=
>
data in SYN segments.=C2=A0 Furthermore, SYN data MUST be discarded in the<=
br>
event that TCP-ENO is disabled, even when such data has already been<br>
ACKed.=C2=A0 TEPs MAY define the use of data in SYN segments for when they<=
br>
are the SYN TEP, but SHOULD limit such usage to cases in which it is<br>
known that the passive opener and network path both support ENO.<span class=
=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></blockquote><d=
iv><br></div><div>It&#39;s interoperability with older stacks that drove my=
 question: if there are multiple machines behind an IP, some of which suppo=
rt ENO and some of which don&#39;t, do we break the charter by sending *any=
* data in the SYN (outside of TFO, which as we&#39;ve established is unusab=
le for tcpinc)?<br><br>The charter says: q( The protocol must gracefully fa=
ll-back to TCP if the remote peer does not support the proposed extensions.=
 )<br><br>If TCP&#39;s behavior in the absence of a TFO cookie is to discar=
d data in the SYN, normatively and (especially) observationally, then your =
second sentence (&quot;Furthermore, SYN data MUST be dscarded...&quot;) is =
true when a host doesn&#39;t support ENO, and so we can safely put whatever=
 we like in the SYN.<br><br>If not, then unexpected data in the SYN *might*=
 be forwarded to the application as garbage by some TCP stacks, resulting i=
n mostly-undefined behavior but almost certainly connection breakage; in th=
at case, do we need some explicit signaling from the server on a prior conn=
ection for when SYN data on resumption attempts is okay, or is &quot;...but=
 SHOULD limit such usage...&quot; good enough?<br><br></div><div>Kyle<br></=
div></div><br></div></div>

--001a11493a044599260538a1f2b8--


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From: Jeremy Harris <jgh@wizmail.org>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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On 27/07/16 18:35, David Mazieres wrote:
>  Furthermore, SYN data MUST be discarded in the
> event that TCP-ENO is disabled, even when such data has already been
> ACKed.

                                   ^^^^^^^^^
This sounds like a recipe for implementation errors and confusion.
-- 
Cheers,
  Jeremy


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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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On 7/27/2016 11:18 AM, Jeremy Harris wrote:
> On 27/07/16 18:35, David Mazieres wrote:
>>  Furthermore, SYN data MUST be discarded in the
>> event that TCP-ENO is disabled, even when such data has already been
>> ACKed.
>                                    ^^^^^^^^^
> This sounds like a recipe for implementation errors and confusion.

Sounds like a semantics error. TCP should never ACK data it discards. It
is possible to ACK the segment without ACKing the data -- I presume
that's what is intended here.

Joe


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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org> writes:

> do we need some explicit signaling from the server on a prior
> connection for when SYN data on resumption attempts is okay, or is
> "...but SHOULD limit such usage..." good enough?

This is precisely the question on which some input from more experienced
members of the working group could be helpful.

Basically I'd like to ensure that ENO conflicts as little as possible
with future use of data in SYN segments.  So rather than just flat-out
prohibiting it (and having people not even test the corner case), I
think it would be good to specify that receivers explicitly ignore the
data in places where it couldn't possibly be useful.  And then once you
are there, why not say that TEPs MAY define data but probably shouldn't
send it for the time being in the remaining cases.

David


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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 00:24:19 +0100
From: Derek Fawcus <dfawcus+lists-tcpcrypt@employees.org>
To: tcpinc <tcpinc@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <20160727232419.GA45841@cowbell.employees.org>
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Cc: "tcpm@ietf.org Extensions" <tcpm@ietf.org>, Kyle Rose <krose@krose.org>, "Mirja Kuehlewind \(IETF\)" <ietf@kuehlewind.net>, David Mazieres expires 2016-10-25 PDT <mazieres-5mehvxfqtr38mvjvf6tfwgcy62@temporary-address.scs.stanford.edu>
Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 02:45:11PM -0700, David Mazieres wrote:
> 
> Basically I'd like to ensure that ENO conflicts as little as possible
> with future use of data in SYN segments.

My understanding of what TCP _allows_ (absent FO) is that one can send
data in the SYN,  it can be ACK'ed in the SYN-ACK,  but there may be
some text indicating it is not to be delivered to the receiving
application unless and until the 3whs completes.

Implying that a passive opener which chose to ack such data bytes would
have to buffer such data until the handshake completes;  but I'm not
aware of any stack which actually works that way. (Due to DOS attack).

So I'd expect it would probably be safe to start defining some new
expectations / constraints for use of such data in SYN segments.

However,  one could envisage say a user space TCP stack (for a SERVER)
which supported the following sequence:

        CLIENT                                         SERVER

   1)   SYN-SENT     --> <SYN, data1> -->             SYN-RECEIVED

   2)   ESTABLISHED  <-- <SYN, ACK(data1), data2> <-- ESTABLISHED

   3)   FIN-WAIT-1   --> <FIN, ACK(data2)> -->        CLOSE-WAIT

followed by the rest of the normal close sequence.

i.e. something slightly similar to T/TCP but without trying to optimise
the close sequence,  while still allowing a request-response exchange
to be done in 1-RTT if all goes well.

DF


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Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2016 07:37:54 +0100
From: Derek Fawcus <dfawcus+lists-tcpcrypt@employees.org>
To: Derek Fawcus <dfawcus+lists-tcpcrypt@employees.org>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [tcpinc] TCP's treatment of data in SYN packets
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On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 12:24:19am +0100, Derek Fawcus wrote:
> 
> Implying that a passive opener which chose to ack such data bytes would
> have to buffer such data until the handshake completes;  but I'm not
> aware of any stack which actually works that way.

Except the old KA9Q NOS,  which was tickling my memory...

It did have the ability to send such SYN data.

DF

