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From: Bob Briscoe <B.Briscoe-contractor@cablelabs.com>
Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Scheffenegger, Richard" <Richard.Scheffenegger@netapp.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tcpm/FQm0YayHns4i7DsO0pBZDE0dTuI>
Subject: [tcpm] Accurate ECN update: draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04
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TCPM folks,

We've updated this draft.

* Added feedback and testing for mangling of IP/ECN on SYN & SYN/ACK
   in draft-03 these had been potential options in an appendix, but 
we've promoted them to requirements as a result of a measurement study 
that finds ECN bleaching in mobile (details can be provided).
* MUST use change-triggered ACKs with conditional exception for hardware 
offload (as promised in last tcpm meeting)
* All open issues now closed. Deleted last 3 appendices that were "To be 
deleted before publication"
* No change to IANA section, as agreed by hum in last tcpm

* Ready for WGLC.

See: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04



Bob

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	[tcpm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04.txt
Date: 	Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:56:38 -0700
From: 	internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: 	i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: 	tcpm@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions WG of the IETF.

         Title           : More Accurate ECN Feedback in TCP
         Authors         : Bob Briscoe
                           Mirja Kühlewind
                           Richard Scheffenegger
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04.txt
	Pages           : 43
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
    Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) is a mechanism where network
    nodes can mark IP packets instead of dropping them to indicate
    incipient congestion to the end-points.  Receivers with an ECN-
    capable transport protocol feed back this information to the sender.
    ECN is specified for TCP in such a way that only one feedback signal
    can be transmitted per Round-Trip Time (RTT).  Recently, new TCP
    mechanisms like Congestion Exposure (ConEx) or Data Center TCP
    (DCTCP) need more accurate ECN feedback information whenever more
    than one marking is received in one RTT.  This document specifies an
    experimental scheme to provide more than one feedback signal per RTT
    in the TCP header.  Given TCP header space is scarce, it overloads
    the three existing ECN-related flags in the TCP header and provides
    additional information in a new TCP option.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
tcpm@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


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<html>
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    TCPM folks,<br>
    <br>
    We've updated this draft.<br>
    <br>
    * Added feedback and testing for mangling of IP/ECN on SYN &amp;
    SYN/ACK <br>
      in draft-03 these had been potential options in an appendix, but
    we've promoted them to requirements as a result of a measurement
    study that finds ECN bleaching in mobile (details can be provided).<br>
    * MUST use change-triggered ACKs with conditional exception for
    hardware offload (as promised in last tcpm meeting)<br>
    * All open issues now closed. Deleted last 3 appendices that were
    "To be deleted before publication"  <br>
    * No change to IANA section, as agreed by hum in last tcpm<br>
    <br>
    * Ready for WGLC.
    <div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
      See: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04</a><br>
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Bob<br>
      <br>
      -------- Forwarded Message --------
      <table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellspacing="0"
        cellpadding="0" border="0">
        <tbody>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Subject:
            </th>
            <td>[tcpm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04.txt</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
            <td>Mon, 30 Oct 2017 16:56:38 -0700</td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
          <tr>
            <th nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE" align="RIGHT">CC: </th>
            <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tcpm@ietf.org">tcpm@ietf.org</a></td>
          </tr>
        </tbody>
      </table>
      <br>
      <br>
      <pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions WG of the IETF.

        Title           : More Accurate ECN Feedback in TCP
        Authors         : Bob Briscoe
                          Mirja Kühlewind
                          Richard Scheffenegger
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04.txt
	Pages           : 43
	Date            : 2017-10-30

Abstract:
   Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) is a mechanism where network
   nodes can mark IP packets instead of dropping them to indicate
   incipient congestion to the end-points.  Receivers with an ECN-
   capable transport protocol feed back this information to the sender.
   ECN is specified for TCP in such a way that only one feedback signal
   can be transmitted per Round-Trip Time (RTT).  Recently, new TCP
   mechanisms like Congestion Exposure (ConEx) or Data Center TCP
   (DCTCP) need more accurate ECN feedback information whenever more
   than one marking is received in one RTT.  This document specifies an
   experimental scheme to provide more than one feedback signal per RTT
   in the TCP header.  Given TCP header space is scarce, it overloads
   the three existing ECN-related flags in the TCP header and provides
   additional information in a new TCP option.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn/</a>

There are also htmlized versions available at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04</a>

A diff from the previous version is available at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-04</a>


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a>

_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tcpm@ietf.org">tcpm@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm</a>
</pre>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

--------------E91924968F1AAE4A16153C8A--


From nobody Sun Nov  5 12:12:22 2017
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Subject: [tcpm] IETF 100 agenda
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--94eb2c0d7e8a34886a055d41f41b
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Hi, I've uploaded the current agenda on the following url.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/agenda-100-tcpm/

Please feel free to let us know if you have questions or suggestions.

Thanks,
--
Yoshi

--94eb2c0d7e8a34886a055d41f41b
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>Hi, I&#39;ve uploaded the current agenda on=
 the following url.<div><br><div><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/me=
eting/100/materials/agenda-100-tcpm/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/=
100/materials/agenda-100-tcpm/</a><br></div></div><div><br></div><div>Pleas=
e feel free to let us know if you have questions or suggestions.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>--</div><div>Yoshi</div></div>

--94eb2c0d7e8a34886a055d41f41b--


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tcpm/AWXKtMvLYp-f16c4RUHWj5vh0qg>
Subject: [tcpm] ECN and ECN++ traversal experiments: draft-ietf-tcpm-generalized-ecn-02
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TCPM folks,

We've updated this draft, mainly to add a ref to the paper below, which 
outlines a large measurement study on traversal of ECN++ and ECN.
It is the first major study of ECN traversal over both mobile and fixed 
networks.

It's "to appear" in IEEE Comms Mag, but here's a link to the accepted draft:
"Measuring ECN++: Good News for ++, Bad News for ECN over Mobile 
<http://www.it.uc3m.es/amandala/ecn++/ecn_commag_2018.html>"

It's fairly short, but here's an even shorter summary, solely of the 
results.

*Terminology: **
** outgoing -> from client to server; otherwise incoming.
* Classic TCP/ECN:     All TCP control packets and retransmissions are 
not ECN-capable
* TCP/ECN+      TCP SYN/ACK is ECN-capable, but other TCP control 
packets and retransmissions are not
* TCP/ECN++     all TCP packets are ECN-capable

*Highlights:**
*Bad news: 7.5 out of 11 mobile operators tested bleach ECN in outgoing 
packets at or before the first IP hop. {Note 1}
Good news: ECN ﬁelds do not cause packet drop.
Good news: ECN++ support is as good as ECN support.
Good news: 61% of Alexa top 500k Web servers support ECN.
Good news: All the ECN-capable top-500k Alexa servers we were able to 
test have the same response to ECE as to 3 DupACKs.
Good news: At least, 51% of the Alexa top-500k servers support IW of 10 
segments.
Bad news: 0.4% of the Alexa top-500k servers (1,745 servers) use IW 
larger than 10.
           Of these, 1,121 servers deliver the whole file in the IW 
(largest: 585 packets * 100 B = 58,500 B)
Bad news: Apparent ECN+ servers respond oddly (IW + 1) to congestion 
marking on the SYN/ACK: 3.51% of Alexa 500k


____________________
{Note 1}: Supplementary details related to the first bullet:
* Limited outgoing tests over 7 more mobile operators, find 3 more that 
bleach all ECN at or before the first IP hop.
* The "0.5 of an operator" bleaches ECN only on port 80 (non-ECN Web 
proxy).
* 2 operators use ECN-capable proxies.
* Over the 3 mobile networks that do not bleach ECN,
     0.53% of upstream paths to Alexa-500k suffer ECN bleaching >5 hops 
from the client
* Over fixed access (PlanetLab)
   - no upstream ECN bleaching close to client
   - 0.23% of upstream paths to Alexa-500k suffer ECN bleaching >5 hops 
from the client
* No downstream ECN bleaching measured over fixed or mobile,
   - except the non-ECN proxy,
   - however, limited paths tested (limited to servers we controlled)


Bob and co-authors

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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    TCPM folks,<br>
    <br>
    We've updated this draft, mainly to add a ref to the paper below,
    which outlines a large measurement study on traversal of ECN++ and
    ECN. <br>
    It is the first major study of ECN traversal over both mobile and
    fixed networks.<br>
    <br>
    It's "to appear" in IEEE Comms Mag, but here's a link to the
    accepted draft:<br>
    "<a moz-do-not-send="true"
      href="http://www.it.uc3m.es/amandala/ecn++/ecn_commag_2018.html">Measuring
      ECN++: Good News for ++, Bad News for ECN over Mobile</a>"<br>
    <br>
    It's fairly short, but here's an even shorter summary, solely of the
    results.<br>
     <br>
    <b>Terminology:  </b><b><br>
    </b>* outgoing -&gt; from client to server; otherwise incoming. <br>
    * Classic TCP/ECN:     All TCP control packets and retransmissions
    are not ECN-capable <br>
    * TCP/ECN+      TCP SYN/ACK is ECN-capable, but other TCP control
    packets and retransmissions are not <br>
    * TCP/ECN++     all TCP packets are ECN-capable <br>
    <br>
    <b>Highlights:</b><b><br>
    </b>Bad news: 7.5 out of 11 mobile operators tested bleach ECN in
    outgoing packets at or before the first IP hop. {Note 1}<br>
    Good news: ECN ﬁelds do not cause packet drop. <br>
    Good news: ECN++ support is as good as ECN support. <br>
    Good news: 61% of Alexa top 500k Web servers support ECN. <br>
    Good news: All the ECN-capable top-500k Alexa servers we were able
    to test have the same response to ECE as to 3 DupACKs.  <br>
    Good news: At least, 51% of the Alexa top-500k servers support IW of
    10 segments.  <br>
    Bad news: 0.4% of the Alexa top-500k servers (1,745 servers) use IW
    larger than 10.  <br>
              Of these, 1,121 servers deliver the whole file in the IW
    (largest: 585 packets * 100 B = 58,500 B) <br>
    Bad news: Apparent ECN+ servers respond oddly (IW + 1) to congestion
    marking on the SYN/ACK: 3.51% of Alexa 500k  <br>
      <br>
    <br>
    ____________________<br>
    {Note 1}: Supplementary details related to the first bullet: <br>
    * Limited outgoing tests over 7 more mobile operators, find 3 more
    that bleach all ECN at or before the first IP hop. <br>
    * The "0.5 of an operator" bleaches ECN only on port 80 (non-ECN Web
    proxy). <br>
    * 2 operators use ECN-capable proxies. <br>
    * Over the 3 mobile networks that do not bleach ECN,  <br>
        0.53% of upstream paths to Alexa-500k suffer ECN bleaching &gt;5
    hops from the client <br>
    * Over fixed access (PlanetLab)  <br>
      - no upstream ECN bleaching close to client  <br>
      - 0.23% of upstream paths to Alexa-500k suffer ECN bleaching &gt;5
    hops from the client <br>
    * No downstream ECN bleaching measured over fixed or mobile,  <br>
      - except the non-ECN proxy,  <br>
      - however, limited paths tested (limited to servers we controlled)<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Bob and co-authors<br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 16:21:52 +0000
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From: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [mpls] LDP Security
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Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 16:21:52 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [mpls] LDP Security
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To: "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
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From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [mpls] LDP Security
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Hi, all,

I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to
include/require other algorithms. It was intended to be extensible.

I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on
extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters and
keys, but it stalled twice:

M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U. Chunduri,
A. Tian, J. Touch, “Negotiation for Keying Pairwise Routing Protocols in
IKEv2 <http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt>,”
(RFC in progress), Nov. 2013.

U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “Using IKEv2 with TCP-AO
<http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt>,”
(RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.

AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues with its
use outside routing environments where keys are already considered
sufficiently managed.

However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no
implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a new
solution simply to avoid implementing an existing one would be a
significant waste of time.

Joe


On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:
>
> +TCPM
>
>  
>
> Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO on the TCPM list, or speak up
> at the upcoming TCPM meeting.
>
>  
>
> The addition of SHA-256 has been discussed in TCPM already (see
> draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but so far there was not much energy and no
> interest from potential TCP-AO implementers or users.
>
>  
>
> Michael
>
> (TCPM co-chair)
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM
> *To:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>
> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org;
> <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>
>  
>
> Hi Stewart
>
>  
>
> Thanks for your note.
>
>  
>
> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>
>  
>
> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>
> - It uses weak algorithms
>
> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>
>  
>
> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so
> remedies the algorithm
>
> issue but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much
> progress on the key
>
> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying
> either of these
>
> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use).
> We should probably
>
> talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to get better any
> time soon.
>
>  
>
> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
> "SHA-256", with
>
> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>
>  
>
> -Ekr
>
>  
>
>  
>
> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a
> huge improvement.
>
> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
> opportunistic.  That said,
>
> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link
> after connection
>
> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>
>  
>
> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant
> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>
>     I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>     PALS WG Chairs.
>
>     There is a concern shared among the security community and the
>     working groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer
>     adequately secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic
>     security of its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no
>     longer considered to meet current security requirements.
>
>     In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element
>     2. Session communication carried by TCP the following statements
>     is made:
>
>     "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for
>     the authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>
>     "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by
>     some to be too weak for this application.  It also points out that
>     a similar TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites
>     SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such
>     TCP option has been defined and deployed.  However, we note that
>     LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available,
>     and when one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented,
>     upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively straightforward."
>
>     We note that BGP has already been through this process, and
>     replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow
>     the same approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we are able to
>     ascertain, there is currently no recommended, mandatory to
>     implement, cryptographic function specified. We are concerned that
>     without such a mandatory function, implementations will simply
>     fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>
>     We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar
>     to RFC 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>
>     "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to
>     secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently
>     required TCP MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the TBD
>     cryptographic mechanism must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO
>     to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred option,
>     and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is unavailable."
>
>     We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that
>     TCP security negotiation is still work in progress. If we are
>     wrong, then we need to include a requirement that such negotiation
>     is also required. In the absence of a negotiation protocol,
>     however, we need to leave this as a configuration process until
>     such time as the negotiation protocol work is complete. On
>     completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue a
>     further update requiring its use.
>
>     Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an
>     indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF
>     anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>
>     The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that
>     it can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route
>     processor, and which will provide adequate security without
>     significantly degrading the convergence time of an LSR. Without a
>     function that does not significantly impact router convergence we
>     simply close one vulnerability and open another.
>
>     As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms,
>     we  need to ask the security area for a review of our proposed
>     approach, and help correcting any misunderstanding of the security
>     issues or our misunderstanding of the existing security
>     mechanisms. We also need the recommendations of a suitable
>     security function (TBD in the above text).
>
>     Best regards
>
>     The MPLS WG Chairs
>     The PALS WG Chairs
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


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    <p>Hi, all,</p>
    <p>I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to
      include/require other algorithms. It was intended to be
      extensible.</p>
    <p>I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on
      extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters
      and keys, but it stalled twice:</p>
    <p>M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U.
      Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “<a
        href="http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt">Negotiation
        for Keying Pairwise Routing Protocols in IKEv2</a>,” (RFC in
      progress), Nov. 2013.</p>
    <p>U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “<a
href="http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt">Using
        IKEv2 with TCP-AO</a>,” (RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.</p>
    <p>AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues
      with its use outside routing environments where keys are already
      considered sufficiently managed.</p>
    <p>However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no
      implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a
      new solution simply to avoid implementing an existing one would be
      a significant waste of time.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Joe<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael
      (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoPlainText">+TCPM <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO
          on the TCPM list, or speak up at the upcoming TCPM meeting.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">The addition of SHA-256 has been
          discussed in TCPM already (see draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but
          so far there was not much energy and no interest from
          potential TCP-AO implementers or users.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText">(TCPM co-chair)<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
                </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:pals@ietf.org">pals@ietf.org</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state of play
                is, I think much like yours.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major
                respects:<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">- It has a bad negotiation/setuop
                story (manual key management)<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in
                replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies the algorithm<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">issue but not the key management
                issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on the key<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">management story, and that seems to
                be a major impediment to deploying either of these<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">technologies (which I am given to
                understand don't see a lot of use). We should probably<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">talk in Singapore about that, but
                that's not going to get better any time soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the text you
                have is OK, and "TBD" should read "SHA-256", with<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt;
                SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">-Ekr<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better support
                for rollover, but this is not a huge improvement.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal
                here as it's unauthenticated but opportunistic.  That
                said,<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">it would provide defense against
                attackers who gain access to the link after connection<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">setup and doesn't require
                configuration.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM,
                Stewart Bryant &lt;<a
                  href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the
                  SEC and RTG ADs,<br>
                  <br>
                  I am sending the following message on behalf of the
                  MPLS and the<br>
                  PALS WG Chairs.<br>
                  <br>
                  There is a concern shared among the security community
                  and the working groups that develop the LDP protocol
                  that LDP is no longer adequately secured. LDP
                  currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of
                  its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no
                  longer considered to meet current security
                  requirements.<br>
                  <br>
                  In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) ,
                  List element 2. Session communication carried by TCP
                  the following statements is made:<br>
                  <br>
                  "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to
                  provide for the authenticity and integrity of session
                  messages.<br>
                  <br>
                  "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now
                  considered by some to be too weak for this
                  application.  It also points out that a similar TCP
                  option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites
                  SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.  To our
                  knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and
                  deployed.  However, we note that LDP can use whatever
                  TCP message digest techniques are available, and when
                  one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented,
                  upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
                  straightforward."<br>
                  <br>
                  We note that BGP has already been through this
                  process, and replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I
                  would be logical to follow the same approach to secure
                  LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain,
                  there is currently no recommended, mandatory to
                  implement, cryptographic function specified. We are
                  concerned that without such a mandatory function,
                  implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we
                  will be no further forward<br>
                  <br>
                  We think that the best way forward is to publish a
                  draft similar to RFC 7454 that contains the following
                  requirement:<br>
                  <br>
                  "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement
                  TCP-AO to secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in
                  addition to the currently required TCP MD5 Signature
                  Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism
                  must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure
                  LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred
                  option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
                  unavailable."<br>
                  <br>
                  We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but
                  it seems that TCP security negotiation is still work
                  in progress. If we are wrong, then we need to include
                  a requirement that such negotiation is also required.
                  In the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we
                  need to leave this as a configuration process until
                  such time as the negotiation protocol work is
                  complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation
                  protocol we need to issue a further update requiring
                  its use.<br>
                  <br>
                  Additionally we should note that no cryptographic
                  mechanism has an indefinite lifetime, and that
                  implementation should note the IETF anticipates
                  updating the default cryptographic mechanism over
                  time.<br>
                  <br>
                  The TBD default security function will need to be
                  chosen such that it can reasonably be implemented on a
                  typical router route processor, and which will provide
                  adequate security without significantly degrading the
                  convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that
                  does not significantly impact router convergence we
                  simply close one vulnerability and open another.<br>
                  <br>
                  As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security
                  mechanisms, we  need to ask the security area for a
                  review of our proposed approach, and help correcting
                  any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
                  misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms.
                  We also need the recommendations of a suitable
                  security function (TBD in the above text).<br>
                  <br>
                  Best regards<br>
                  <br>
                  The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
                  The PALS WG Chairs<br>
                  <br>
                  <o:p></o:p></p>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
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To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tcpm/66oZiGJYz77gEpgEq9SdBX78fS0>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [mpls]   LDP Security
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Joe,

There=92s no problem with updating, the problem is with adoption...

Regards,
Jeff

> On Nov 11, 2017, at 08:48, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi, all,
>=20
> I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to include/req=
uire other algorithms. It was intended to be extensible.
>=20
> I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on extension=
s to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters and keys, but it stal=
led twice:
>=20
> M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U. Chunduri, A. T=
ian, J. Touch, =93Negotiation for Keying Pairwise Routing Protocols in IKEv2=
,=94 (RFC in progress), Nov. 2013.
>=20
> U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, =93Using IKEv2 with TCP-AO,=94 (RFC in pro=
gress), Feb. 2014.
>=20
> AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues with its us=
e outside routing environments where keys are already considered sufficientl=
y managed.
>=20
> However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no implementatio=
ns available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a new solution simply to=
 avoid implementing an existing one would be a significant waste of time.
> Joe
>=20
>> On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:
>> +TCPM
>> =20
>> Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO on the TCPM list, or speak up at=
 the upcoming TCPM meeting.
>> =20
>> The addition of SHA-256 has been discussed in TCPM already (see draft-nay=
ak-tcp-sha2-02), but so far there was not much energy and no interest from p=
otential TCP-AO implementers or users.
>> =20
>> Michael
>> (TCPM co-chair)
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Eric Rescorla
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM
>> To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>> Cc: mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> <rtg-ad=
s@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ad=
s@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>> =20
>> Hi Stewart
>> =20
>> Thanks for your note.
>> =20
>> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>> =20
>> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>> - It uses weak algorithms
>> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>> =20
>> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedie=
s the algorithm
>> issue but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much progress=
 on the key
>> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to deploying ei=
ther of these
>> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of use). We s=
hould probably
>> talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to get better any time=
 soon.
>> =20
>> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read "S=
HA-256", with
>> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>> =20
>> -Ekr
>> =20
>> =20
>> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not a hug=
e improvement.
>> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but oppor=
tunistic.  That said,
>> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the link af=
ter connection
>> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>> =20
>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>> To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>>=20
>> I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>> PALS WG Chairs.
>>=20
>> There is a concern shared among the security community and the working gr=
oups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer adequately secured.=
 LDP currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of its messages, but=
 MD5 is a hash function that is no longer considered to meet current securit=
y requirements.
>>=20
>> In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List element 2. Sess=
ion communication carried by TCP the following statements is made:
>>=20
>> "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide for the aut=
henticity and integrity of session messages.
>>=20
>> "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by some to b=
e too weak for this                   application.  It also points out that a=
 similar TCP                   option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it c=
ites                   SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowl=
edge, no such TCP option has been defined and deployed.  However, we note th=
at LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are available, and whe=
n one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented, upgrading LDP to use i=
t would be relatively straightforward."
>>=20
>> We note that BGP has already been through this process, and replaced MD5 w=
ith TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to follow the same approach to se=
cure LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain, there is currently no=
 recommended, mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified. We a=
re concerned that without such a mandatory function, implementations will si=
mply fall back to MD5 and we will be no further forward
>>=20
>> We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar to RFC 7=
454 that contains the following requirement:
>>=20
>> "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to secure t=
he TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the currently required TCP MD5 S=
ignature Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism must be implem=
ented and provided to TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is th=
e preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is unavailable."
>>=20
>> We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems that TCP se=
curity negotiation is still work in progress. If we are wrong, then we need t=
o include a requirement that such negotiation is also required. In the absen=
ce of a negotiation protocol, however, we need to leave this as a configurat=
ion process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is complete. On=
 completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we need to issue a further up=
date requiring its use.
>>=20
>> Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has an indefi=
nite lifetime, and that implementation should note the IETF anticipates upda=
ting the default cryptographic mechanism over time.
>>=20
>> The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such that it can=
 reasonably be implemented on a typical router route processor, and which wi=
ll provide adequate security without significantly degrading the convergence=
 time of an LSR. Without a function that does not significantly impact route=
r convergence we simply close one vulnerability and open another.
>>=20
>> As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms, we  need t=
o ask the security area for a review of our proposed approach, and help corr=
ecting any misunderstanding of the security issues or our misunderstanding o=
f the existing security mechanisms. We also need the recommendations of a su=
itable security function (TBD in the above text).
>>=20
>> Best regards
>>=20
>> The MPLS WG Chairs
>> The PALS WG Chairs
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> tcpm mailing list
>> tcpm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Joe,<div><br></div><div>There=E2=80=99s no p=
roblem with updating, the problem is with adoption...<br><br><div id=3D"Appl=
eMailSignature">Regards,<div>Jeff</div></div><div><br>On Nov 11, 2017, at 08=
:48, Joe Touch &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:touch@strayalpha.com">touch@strayalpha.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"=
>
 =20
 =20
    <p>Hi, all,</p>
    <p>I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to
      include/require other algorithms. It was intended to be
      extensible.</p>
    <p>I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on
      extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters
      and keys, but it stalled twice:</p>
    <p>M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U.
      Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://www.isi.edu/to=
uch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt">Negotiation
        for Keying Pairwise Routing Protocols in IKEv2</a>,=E2=80=9D (RFC in=

      progress), Nov. 2013.</p>
    <p>U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, =E2=80=9C<a href=3D"http://www.isi.ed=
u/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt">Using
        IKEv2 with TCP-AO</a>,=E2=80=9D (RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.</p>
    <p>AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues
      with its use outside routing environments where keys are already
      considered sufficiently managed.</p>
    <p>However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no
      implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a
      new solution simply to avoid implementing an existing one would be
      a significant waste of time.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Joe<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael
      (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B=
393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com">
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      <div class=3D"WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">+TCPM <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO
          on the TCPM list, or speak up at the upcoming TCPM meeting.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">The addition of SHA-256 has been
          discussed in TCPM already (see draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but
          so far there was not much energy and no interest from
          potential TCP-AO implementers or users.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText">(TCPM co-chair)<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm
          0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls
                [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:mpls-boun=
ces@ietf.org">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
                </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant
                <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:stewart.br=
yant@gmail.com">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mai=
lto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" h=
ref=3D"mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>;
                <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ie=
tf.org">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>;
                <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:mpls-ch=
airs@ietf.org">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>; <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviate=
d" href=3D"mailto:pals@ietf.org">pals@ietf.org</a>;
                <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ie=
tf.org">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=
=3D"mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state of play
                is, I think much like yours.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major
                respects:<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<o:p></o:p></p=
>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- It has a bad negotiation/setuop
                story (manual key management)<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in
                replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies the algorithm<o:p></=
o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">issue but not the key management
                issue [0]. We haven't made much progress on the key<o:p></o:=
p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">management story, and that seems to
                be a major impediment to deploying either of these<o:p></o:p=
></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">technologies (which I am given to
                understand don't see a lot of use). We should probably<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">talk in Singapore about that, but
                that's not going to get better any time soon.<o:p></o:p></p>=

            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the text you
                have is OK, and "TBD" should read "SHA-256", with<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256 -&gt;
                SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better support
                for rollover, but this is not a huge improvement.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal
                here as it's unauthenticated but opportunistic.&nbsp; That
                said,<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">it would provide defense against
                attackers who gain access to the link after connection<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">setup and doesn't require
                configuration.<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM,
                Stewart Bryant &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;
                wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
              <blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
                1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the=

                  SEC and RTG ADs,<br>
                  <br>
                  I am sending the following message on behalf of the
                  MPLS and the<br>
                  PALS WG Chairs.<br>
                  <br>
                  There is a concern shared among the security community
                  and the working groups that develop the LDP protocol
                  that LDP is no longer adequately secured. LDP
                  currently relies on MD5 for cryptographic security of
                  its messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is no
                  longer considered to meet current security
                  requirements.<br>
                  <br>
                  In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) ,
                  List element 2. Session communication carried by TCP
                  the following statements is made:<br>
                  <br>
                  "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to
                  provide for the authenticity and integrity of session
                  messages.<br>
                  <br>
                  "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now
                  considered by some to be too weak for this
                  application.&nbsp; It also points out that a similar TCP
                  option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it cites
                  SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.&nbsp; To our
                  knowledge, no such TCP option has been defined and
                  deployed.&nbsp; However, we note that LDP can use whatever=

                  TCP message digest techniques are available, and when
                  one stronger than MD5 is specified and implemented,
                  upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
                  straightforward."<br>
                  <br>
                  We note that BGP has already been through this
                  process, and replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I
                  would be logical to follow the same approach to secure
                  LDP. However, as far as we are able to ascertain,
                  there is currently no recommended, mandatory to
                  implement, cryptographic function specified. We are
                  concerned that without such a mandatory function,
                  implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we
                  will be no further forward<br>
                  <br>
                  We think that the best way forward is to publish a
                  draft similar to RFC 7454 that contains the following
                  requirement:<br>
                  <br>
                  "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement
                  TCP-AO to secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in
                  addition to the currently required TCP MD5 Signature
                  Option. Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism
                  must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to secure
                  LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the preferred
                  option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
                  unavailable."<br>
                  <br>
                  We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but
                  it seems that TCP security negotiation is still work
                  in progress. If we are wrong, then we need to include
                  a requirement that such negotiation is also required.
                  In the absence of a negotiation protocol, however, we
                  need to leave this as a configuration process until
                  such time as the negotiation protocol work is
                  complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation
                  protocol we need to issue a further update requiring
                  its use.<br>
                  <br>
                  Additionally we should note that no cryptographic
                  mechanism has an indefinite lifetime, and that
                  implementation should note the IETF anticipates
                  updating the default cryptographic mechanism over
                  time.<br>
                  <br>
                  The TBD default security function will need to be
                  chosen such that it can reasonably be implemented on a
                  typical router route processor, and which will provide
                  adequate security without significantly degrading the
                  convergence time of an LSR. Without a function that
                  does not significantly impact router convergence we
                  simply close one vulnerability and open another.<br>
                  <br>
                  As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security
                  mechanisms, we&nbsp; need to ask the security area for a
                  review of our proposed approach, and help correcting
                  any misunderstanding of the security issues or our
                  misunderstanding of the existing security mechanisms.
                  We also need the recommendations of a suitable
                  security function (TBD in the above text).<br>
                  <br>
                  Best regards<br>
                  <br>
                  The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
                  The PALS WG Chairs<br>
                  <br>
                  <o:p></o:p></p>
              </blockquote>
            </div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:tcpm@ietf.org">tcpm@iet=
f.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/tcpm">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>mpls mailing list</span><br><spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/mpls</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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On 11/10/2017 7:11 PM, Jeff Tantsura wrote:
> Joe,
>
> There’s no problem with updating, the problem is with adoption...

Sure, but I hope designing a new solution isn't assumed to be the best
way to achieve that. tcpinc showed that it's easy to get it wrong (it
may provide help to TCP content, but "TCP security" it isn't).

Joe


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Joe:=20

No - the mentioning of deployment issues was just background on =
discussion and an expression of my personal angst on this topic.=20

Sue Hares=20
-----Original Message-----
From: mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2017 11:06 AM
To: Jeff Tantsura
Cc: mpls@ietf.org; Eric Rescorla; tcpm@ietf.org; =
pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; =
pals@ietf.org; <sec-ads@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [tcpm] LDP Security



On 11/10/2017 7:11 PM, Jeff Tantsura wrote:
> Joe,
>
> There=E2=80=99s no problem with updating, the problem is with =
adoption...

Sure, but I hope designing a new solution isn't assumed to be the best =
way to achieve that. tcpinc showed that it's easy to get it wrong (it =
may provide help to TCP content, but "TCP security" it isn't).

Joe

_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
mpls@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls


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Hello,
If you are going to give a presentation on this Thursday, please send your
slide by Wednesday (11/15) morning.

Thanks!
--
tcpm co-chairs

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<div dir="ltr"><div>Hello,</div><div><div>If you are going to give a presentation on this Thursday, please send your slide by Wednesday (11/15) morning.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div>--</div><div>tcpm co-chairs</div></div></div>

--001a1146b4a2d86c6f055dc91062--


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Subject: [tcpm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Transmission Control Protocol Specification
        Author          : Wesley M. Eddy
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07.txt
	Pages           : 101
	Date            : 2017-11-12

Abstract:
   This document specifies the Internet's Transmission Control Protocol
   (TCP).  TCP is an important transport layer protocol in the Internet
   stack, and has continuously evolved over decades of use and growth of
   the Internet.  Over this time, a number of changes have been made to
   TCP as it was specified in RFC 793, though these have only been
   documented in a piecemeal fashion.  This document collects and brings
   those changes together with the protocol specification from RFC 793.
   This document obsoletes RFC 793, as well as 879, 6093, 6429, 6528,
   and 6691.  It updates RFC 1122, and should be considered as a
   replacement for the portions of that document dealing with TCP
   requirements.  It updates RFC 5961 due to a small clarification in
   reset handling while in the SYN-RECEIVED state.  (TODO: double-check
   this list for all actual RFCs when finished)

   RFC EDITOR NOTE: If approved for publication as an RFC, this should
   be marked additionally as "STD: 7" and replace RFC 793 in that role.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: [tcpm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions WG of the IETF.

        Title           : More Accurate ECN Feedback in TCP
        Authors         : Bob Briscoe
                          Mirja Kühlewind
                          Richard Scheffenegger
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05.txt
	Pages           : 43
	Date            : 2017-11-12

Abstract:
   Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) is a mechanism where network
   nodes can mark IP packets instead of dropping them to indicate
   incipient congestion to the end-points.  Receivers with an ECN-
   capable transport protocol feed back this information to the sender.
   ECN is specified for TCP in such a way that only one feedback signal
   can be transmitted per Round-Trip Time (RTT).  Recently, new TCP
   mechanisms like Congestion Exposure (ConEx) or Data Center TCP
   (DCTCP) need more accurate ECN feedback information whenever more
   than one marking is received in one RTT.  This document specifies an
   experimental scheme to provide more than one feedback signal per RTT
   in the TCP header.  Given TCP header space is scarce, it overloads
   the three existing ECN-related flags in the TCP header and provides
   additional information in a new TCP option.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Bob Briscoe <ietf@bobbriscoe.net>
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 13:00:45 +0800
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Subject: [tcpm] Minor rev to draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05
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--------------CCA4146D3EBB70940E6FE1D3
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Folks,

We've just posted a minor rev to the AccECN draft, URLs below. Summary 
of diffs:

  * AccECN applicability is irrespective of whether ECN (of whatever
    flavour) is in the network.
  * Details missed in the previous rev wrt testing for IP/ECN mangling
    of SYN/ACK:
      o Defines what exactly the 3rd ACK of the 3WHS is  (by ACKNO),
        which includes ACK of retransmission of SYN/ACK
      o Implications if 3rd ACK of 3WHS doesn't arrive.
  * Also, ironically, added some acknowledgements (of human effort).

Now we reckon it's really ready for WGLC.

Cheers


Bob


On 13/11/2017 12:47, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Bob Briscoe and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:		draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn
> Revision:	05
> Title:		More Accurate ECN Feedback in TCP
> Document date:	2017-11-11
> Group:		tcpm
> Pages:		43
> URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05
> Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05
> Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05
>
> Abstract:
>     Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) is a mechanism where network
>     nodes can mark IP packets instead of dropping them to indicate
>     incipient congestion to the end-points.  Receivers with an ECN-
>     capable transport protocol feed back this information to the sender.
>     ECN is specified for TCP in such a way that only one feedback signal
>     can be transmitted per Round-Trip Time (RTT).  Recently, new TCP
>     mechanisms like Congestion Exposure (ConEx) or Data Center TCP
>     (DCTCP) need more accurate ECN feedback information whenever more
>     than one marking is received in one RTT.  This document specifies an
>     experimental scheme to provide more than one feedback signal per RTT
>     in the TCP header.  Given TCP header space is scarce, it overloads
>     the three existing ECN-related flags in the TCP header and provides
>     additional information in a new TCP option.
>
>                                                                                    
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>


--------------CCA4146D3EBB70940E6FE1D3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>Folks,</p>
    <p>We've just posted a minor rev to the AccECN draft, URLs below.
      Summary of diffs:</p>
    <ul>
      <li>AccECN applicability is irrespective of whether ECN (of
        whatever flavour) is in the network.</li>
      <li>Details missed in the previous rev wrt testing for IP/ECN
        mangling of SYN/ACK:<br>
      </li>
      <ul>
        <li>Defines what exactly the 3rd ACK of the 3WHS is  (by ACKNO),
          which includes ACK of retransmission of SYN/ACK</li>
        <li>Implications if 3rd ACK of 3WHS doesn't arrive.</li>
      </ul>
      <li>Also, ironically, added some acknowledgements (of human
        effort).<br>
      </li>
    </ul>
    <p>Now we reckon it's really ready for WGLC.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Cheers</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Bob<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13/11/2017 12:47,
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:151054842265.21374.8946387844025665185.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com">
      <pre wrap="">
A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05.txt
has been successfully submitted by Bob Briscoe and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn
Revision:	05
Title:		More Accurate ECN Feedback in TCP
Document date:	2017-11-11
Group:		tcpm
Pages:		43
URL:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05.txt</a>
Status:         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn/</a>
Htmlized:       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05</a>
Htmlized:       <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05</a>
Diff:           <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-accurate-ecn-05</a>

Abstract:
   Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) is a mechanism where network
   nodes can mark IP packets instead of dropping them to indicate
   incipient congestion to the end-points.  Receivers with an ECN-
   capable transport protocol feed back this information to the sender.
   ECN is specified for TCP in such a way that only one feedback signal
   can be transmitted per Round-Trip Time (RTT).  Recently, new TCP
   mechanisms like Congestion Exposure (ConEx) or Data Center TCP
   (DCTCP) need more accurate ECN feedback information whenever more
   than one marking is received in one RTT.  This document specifies an
   experimental scheme to provide more than one feedback signal per RTT
   in the TCP header.  Given TCP header space is scarce, it overloads
   the three existing ECN-related flags in the TCP header and provides
   additional information in a new TCP option.

                                                                                  


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------CCA4146D3EBB70940E6FE1D3--


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Hello,

Here is some context information about the latest revision of the 
converter draft.

> Name:           draft-bonaventure-mptcp-converters
> Revision:       02
 > URL: 
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bonaventure-mptcp-converters-02.txt
> Title:          0-RTT TCP Converter

You can find the full diff at :

https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-bonaventure-mptcp-converters-02

The new version of the draft has benefited from discussions with two 
implementors and other IETFers that have lead to many editorial changes. 
We have mainly tried to improve the readability of the document and make 
it easier for implementors to support the converter protocol.

The main modifications are the following :

1. Introduction

We have update the motivation for the utilisation of converters

2. Applicability

The document is now written with the assumption of the Multipath TCP to 
TCP conversion because there is a clear demand for this feature.

3. Architecture

We have improved the explanation and added a description of the 
Bootstrap process.

We have also clarified a point that was raised by implementors. In the 
"graphical" description of the protocol at IETF99, we showed figures like :


                             Transport
    Client                   Converter                       Server
         -------------------->
         SYN, MPC [->Server:port]

                                     -------------------->
                                           SYN, MPC

                                     <--------------------
                                             SYN+ACK, MPC
         <--------------------
           SYN+ACK, MPC [ MPC supported ] (*)

         -------------------->
             ACK, MPC
                                     -------------------->
                                              ACK, MPC


The packet with a (*) indicates that the converter confirms the
establishment of the connection with the client (the SYN+ACK) and 
provides a converter TLV in the payload to indicate that the Server 
supports Multipath TCP. In practice, an implementation will likely send 
this information in two packets : the SYN+ACK and a packet containing 
the data. We have clarified in the text that this is a perfectly valid 
behaviour, although the figures only show a single arrow for graphical 
reasons.

4. The converter protocol

We have clarified the format of some messages and updated some error 
codes. We have also removed some examples to make the text more compact.

5. Interactions with middleboxes

Editorial changes only

6. Security considerations

We have expanded this section



Best regards,


Olivier Bonaventure


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To: tcpm@ietf.org
From: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 14:22:55 -0500
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Subject: [tcpm] 793bis: New security considerations section
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Hi, one thing that I want to make the WG aware of in the latest RFC 
793bis draft is the new security and privacy considerations section.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07#section-6

The original RFC 793 predates security considerations sections, so I 
didn't have much to start from.  My goal was to point to relevant 
references without creating dozens of pages of meandering text on every 
little possible security issue (most of which are well-known by now).

This is a first crack at it, and it could likely be improved in big 
ways.  Your feedback, suggestions, corrections, etc. is appreciated.



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To: tcpm@ietf.org
From: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 14:43:40 -0500
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Subject: [tcpm] 793bis: Reducing TIME-WAIT (RFC 6191)
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In the latest RFC 796bis update, I added references in a few places to 
mention RFC 6191 (it is reference "[26]" to aid your grepping).  Since 
6191 uses Timestamp options, that are not part of the base 
specification, I think it's proper to have references encouraging it, 
but not requiring it or including it directly in 793bis.

The mentions I've added are:

(1) On page 31, when TIME-WAIT is described, and the reduction algorithm 
from 1122 is included now.  I put "SHOULD be implemented" for this, 
since it's definitely helpful, but one could live without it.

(2) On page 71, with relation to handing sequence number validation for 
incoming segments in the synchronized states. (since the TIME-WAIT 
reduction from 1122 uses the sequence number comparison here)

(3) On page 74, in the description specific to the SYN bit being set 
when already in the synchronized states.

Please shout if you think this should be handled differently.



From nobody Mon Nov 13 11:45:50 2017
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Subject: [tcpm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions WG of the IETF.

        Title           : CUBIC for Fast Long-Distance Networks
        Authors         : Injong Rhee
                          Lisong Xu
                          Sangtae Ha
                          Alexander Zimmermann
                          Lars Eggert
                          Richard Scheffenegger
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic-07.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2017-11-13

Abstract:
   CUBIC is an extension to the current TCP standards.  It differs from
   the current TCP standards only in the congestion control algorithm in
   the sender side.  In particular, it uses a cubic function instead of
   a linear window increase function of the current TCP standards to
   improve scalability and stability under fast and long distance
   networks.  CUBIC and its predecessor algorithm have been adopted as
   default by Linux and have been used for many years.  This document
   provides a specification of CUBIC to enable third party
   implementations and to solicit the community feedback through
   experimentation on the performance of CUBIC.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic-07
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic-07


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Nov 13 11:51:26 2017
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Subject: [tcpm] CUBIC Internet Draft - version 7
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Greetings,

We just submitted a new Internet draft for TCP CUBIC available at the 
following link

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic/

In this version, we made the following changes based on the comments 
received on tcpm-cubic@ietf.org after September 2017.

* fixed some typo and grammatical errors
* reworded some sentences and paragraphs
* changed Section 4.5 to ensure that slow start threshold is at least 2 MSS
* replaced all ``loss event'' with ``congestion event'' to be consistent 
and more accurate for ECN
* replaced all ``bandwidth share'' with ``throughput ratios'' to be clearer

* Mirja's comments on 9/18/2017
    + called CUBIC a congestion control algorithm, instead of a protocol
    + some other editorial changes: like adding more references to ECN, 
fast recovery, timeout.

* Qin's comments on 9/23/2017
    + Revised Section 5.10 "Incremental Deployment" to specific that 
CUBIC does not make any change to TCP receivers.
    + (major revision) Revised Section 3 to better explain the convex 
increase functions, to summarize the design principles, to more clearly 
describe the RTT fairness.
    + Revised Tables 1 and 2 to be consistent

* Sean's comments on 9/26/2017
    + Revised Section 6 to add RFC5681 for TCP security discussion

* Mirja's comments on 9/26/2017
    + Revised Section 4.7 to more clearly describe the timeout behaviors

* Hiren's comments on 10/3/2017
    + Revised Section 4.8 to more clearly describe the slow start behaviors

* Spencer's comments on 10/10/2017
    + (major revision) revised Section 3 to more clearly describe the 
TCP friendliness
    + fixed typo and many other editorial changes

* Benoit's comments on 10/11/2017
    + addressed Qin's comments

* Ben's comments on 10/11/2017
    + clarified the relation between the draft and original CUBIC paper

* Qin's comments on 10/31/2017
    + replaced all "window growth rate" with "window increase rate" to 
avoid confusion

Thanks
Lisong


--------------4E6CD7E2925A6CA5C3076953
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    Greetings,
    <br>
    <br>
    We just submitted a new Internet draft for TCP CUBIC available at
    the following link
    <br>
    <br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
      href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic/</a>
    <br>
    <br>
    In this version, we made the following changes based on the comments
    received on <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
      href="mailto:tcpm-cubic@ietf.org">tcpm-cubic@ietf.org</a> after
    September 2017. <br>
    <br>
    * fixed some typo and grammatical errors
    <br>
    * reworded some sentences and paragraphs
    <br>
    * changed Section 4.5 to ensure that slow start threshold is at
    least 2 MSS
    <br>
    * replaced all ``loss event'' with ``congestion event'' to be
    consistent and more accurate for ECN
    <br>
    * replaced all ``bandwidth share'' with ``throughput ratios'' to be
    clearer
    <br>
    <br>
    * Mirja's comments on 9/18/2017
    <br>
       + called CUBIC a congestion control algorithm, instead of a
    protocol
    <br>
       + some other editorial changes: like adding more references to
    ECN, fast recovery, timeout.
    <br>
    <br>
    * Qin's comments on 9/23/2017
    <br>
       + Revised Section 5.10 "Incremental Deployment" to specific that
    CUBIC does not make any change to TCP receivers.
    <br>
       + (major revision) Revised Section 3 to better explain the convex
    increase functions, to summarize the design principles, to more
    clearly describe the RTT fairness.
    <br>
       + Revised Tables 1 and 2 to be consistent
    <br>
    <br>
    * Sean's comments on 9/26/2017
    <br>
       + Revised Section 6 to add RFC5681 for TCP security discussion
    <br>
    <br>
    * Mirja's comments on 9/26/2017
    <br>
       + Revised Section 4.7 to more clearly describe the timeout
    behaviors
    <br>
    <br>
    * Hiren's comments on 10/3/2017
    <br>
       + Revised Section 4.8 to more clearly describe the slow start
    behaviors
    <br>
    <br>
    * Spencer's comments on 10/10/2017
    <br>
       + (major revision) revised Section 3 to more clearly describe the
    TCP friendliness
    <br>
       + fixed typo and many other editorial changes
    <br>
    <br>
    * Benoit's comments on 10/11/2017
    <br>
       + addressed Qin's comments
    <br>
    <br>
    * Ben's comments on 10/11/2017
    <br>
       + clarified the relation between the draft and original CUBIC
    paper
    <br>
    <br>
    * Qin's comments on 10/31/2017
    <br>
       + replaced all "window growth rate" with "window increase rate"
    to avoid confusion
    <br>
    <br>
    Thanks<br>
    Lisong<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------4E6CD7E2925A6CA5C3076953--


From lstewart@freebsd.org  Sun Nov 12 19:20:10 2017
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To: "tcpm@ietf.org Extensions" <tcpm@ietf.org>
Cc: "Bless, Roland (TM)" <roland.bless@kit.edu>, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>, Naeem Khademi <naeemk@ifi.uio.no>
References: <bd5142c3-6ea9-f703-4a57-78ccb3679574@kit.edu>
From: Lawrence Stewart <lstewart@freebsd.org>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Review of draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-02
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On 23/10/2017 18:12, Bless, Roland (TM) wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> as promised at the last IETF meeting, here is my (lengthy)
> review of draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-02.

I made use of the plane trip to Singapore to scribble some comments into
the -02 draft, which you'll find in the attached .txt in between

==LAS==
<...>
=======

I'm in Singapore until Friday morning if the authors want to
discuss/clarify anything in person.

The patch to implement ABE for FreeBSD's NewReno CC algo module is ready
to land and just waiting on me to pull the trigger. Should be real soon
now...

Cheers,
Lawrence

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--------------99D66E5233C9C54E89BA714C--


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To: Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Cc: "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, "<rtg-ads@ietf.org>" <rtg-ads@ietf.org>, "Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart)" <michael.scharf@nokia.com>, "mpls-chairs@ietf.org" <mpls-chairs@ietf.org>, "pals@ietf.org" <pals@ietf.org>, "<sec-ads@ietf.org>" <sec-ads@ietf.org>
References: <2da71163-cf29-cba6-df61-d75a2cfc9c43@gmail.com> <CAA=duU2YLjSg8Q5PDT+u9cxn9u2xsiPu-imBJrnyL3bfkQFW7A@mail.gmail.com> <7ee4fd77-7d8d-0db2-527e-9cf91d87e634@gmail.com> <CAA=duU3nJsS86udidgkH9jhB9ZD+xaRa2A4MniAVL1BpGE78ZQ@mail.gmail.com> <cf0cb5a4-cc21-97e1-1c26-38974bf9c0be@pi.nu> <51b9e5b4-0a44-1449-a4df-91e4f9df5d6b@pi.nu> <CAA=duU2R9kBMWnRdwPPO49LF1Jc1tyrxvwkyTgaE6SC6jsVruw@mail.gmail.com> <02a50f02-779e-bc39-505c-5a51d066b3f0@pi.nu> <CAA=duU1qV-LiU5pR7VtLLVGtb-8nZHrnUqVyOKpST3-6Dr-Xgw@mail.gmail.com> <ce2c75b6-156d-da80-91d7-b7e6ba2059a0@gmail.com> <CAA=duU1xvV0genbR0CBx2rmpOWUkFmRJX3qrMEp21gTd1HOVww@mail.gmail.com> <f0d553da-0ac4-e794-5cd5-d9cc95063dc6@pi.nu> <15335748-e900-280d-554f-24c55c0f3ba5@gmail.com> <CABcZeBOr5x=98nXeBCT8O-wjk90ga1F3EVk2ktMYoAj9Q8tRkg@mail.gmail.com> <AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <4f634e7c-f3b9-f0ab-abc7-80ec1062b52a@strayalpha.com> <697AC959-60C2-401D-9E64-D88E16F35EBB@gmail.com>
From: Ignas Bagdonas <ibagdona.ietf@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1817bcab-e088-b822-bf6d-07e52b9fb998@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 09:24:00 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [mpls]  LDP Security
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An operator’s view here. Addressing multiple points in a single message 
here.

Yes, the issue is with adoption. It is not being adopted because the 
problem solution does not necessary address the actual problem.

Taking BGP as an example (and most of this applies to LDP as well) – we 
need to differentiate what security means in BGP context. Is it BGP 
transport security – the confidentiality of BGP messages exchanged 
between the peers (which MD5 or AO can address), or BGP information 
security – whether the peer is authorized to advertise a prefix and with 
what attributes (to which the presence or absence of MD5 and AO is 
orthogonal).

Any cryptographically strong security mechanism is not a substitute for 
practical operational hygiene. If you have right confidentiality 
mechanism for BGP transport but do not implement proper edge filtering – 
you will run into problems. Not because there will be a compromise of 
BGP session transport, but because there will be a variety of DoS forms 
on the BGP component itself and the platform on which it is running. 
Proper edge filtering plus TTL validation is good enough and simple 
enough to be universally deployed, and MD5 option is used to validate 
that you are indeed speaking to the same peer to which you were speaking 
before the maintenance window, it is a form of a strong checksum. AO or 
BGP over TLS (dare I to say that :-) ) does nothing to address the BGP 
information security aspects of who is or is not allowed to advertise 
certain types of BGP routing information – which is the source of 
virtually all of practical (and successful) attacks happening in BGP 
context. This is the reason why AO or some other strong cryptographic 
mechanism for BGP transport session is not on the top of the list of 
operational worries, if at that list at all. RPKI family of solutions 
tries to address the BGP information security part. It tries, not 
necessary addresses it in a practical way. But that is above the session 
level security problems.

Any cryptographically strong security mechanism is not a substitute for 
proper network design. Taking the DC example, if the attack vector is 
based on the tenant’s ability to interfere with BGP sessions used for 
controlling the topology that does not belong to the tenant – that is a 
broken network design, and it should be fixed first before trying to fix 
BGP itself. BGP is not at fault here, the design of the network that 
does not allow for sufficient isolation between entities is. No protocol 
is able to fix the design problems by itself.

This does not mean that AO or some other transport security mechanism is 
not relevant or not needed. At least the solution for key rollover that 
is better than manual synchronization over phone is definitely of value.

Ignas


On 11/11/2017 03:11, Jeff Tantsura wrote:
> Joe,
>
> There’s no problem with updating, the problem is with adoption...
>
> Regards,
> Jeff
>
> On Nov 11, 2017, at 08:48, Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com 
> <mailto:touch@strayalpha.com>> wrote:
>
>> Hi, all,
>>
>> I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating TCP-AO to 
>> include/require other algorithms. It was intended to be extensible.
>>
>> I agree with the issue of key management. There was some work on 
>> extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage TCP-AO parameters and 
>> keys, but it stalled twice:
>>
>> M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman, U. 
>> Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “Negotiation for Keying Pairwise Routing 
>> Protocols in IKEv2 
>> <http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt>,” (RFC 
>> in progress), Nov. 2013.
>>
>> U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “Using IKEv2 with TCP-AO 
>> <http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt>,” 
>> (RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.
>>
>> AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the issues with 
>> its use outside routing environments where keys are already 
>> considered sufficiently managed.
>>
>> However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are no 
>> implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT). Designing a 
>> new solution simply to avoid implementing an existing one would be a 
>> significant waste of time.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>>
>> On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf, Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:
>>>
>>> +TCPM
>>>
>>> Please free to discuss changes to TCP-AO on the TCPM list, or speak 
>>> up at the upcoming TCPM meeting.
>>>
>>> The addition of SHA-256 has been discussed in TCPM already (see 
>>> draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but so far there was not much energy and 
>>> no interest from potential TCP-AO implementers or users.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> (TCPM co-chair)
>>>
>>> *From:* mpls [mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Eric Rescorla
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00 PM
>>> *To:* Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
>>> *Cc:* mpls@ietf.org; pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org; <rtg-ads@ietf.org> 
>>> <rtg-ads@ietf.org>; mpls-chairs@ietf.org; pals@ietf.org; 
>>> <sec-ads@ietf.org> <sec-ads@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] LDP Security
>>>
>>> Hi Stewart
>>>
>>> Thanks for your note.
>>>
>>> My overall sense of the state of play is, I think much like yours.
>>>
>>> TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two major respects:
>>>
>>> - It uses weak algorithms
>>>
>>> - It has a bad negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)
>>>
>>> TCP-AO is intended to be a drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so 
>>> remedies the algorithm
>>>
>>> issue but not the key management issue [0]. We haven't made much 
>>> progress on the key
>>>
>>> management story, and that seems to be a major impediment to 
>>> deploying either of these
>>>
>>> technologies (which I am given to understand don't see a lot of 
>>> use). We should probably
>>>
>>> talk in Singapore about that, but that's not going to get better any 
>>> time soon.
>>>
>>> In the interim, I think the text you have is OK, and "TBD" should 
>>> read "SHA-256", with
>>>
>>> the fallback being SHA-256 -> SHA-1 -> MD5.
>>>
>>> -Ekr
>>>
>>> [0] Technically It has better support for rollover, but this is not 
>>> a huge improvement.
>>>
>>> [1] tcpcrypt is kind of orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but 
>>> opportunistic.  That said,
>>>
>>> it would provide defense against attackers who gain access to the 
>>> link after connection
>>>
>>> setup and doesn't require configuration.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Stewart Bryant 
>>> <stewart.bryant@gmail.com <mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     To the SEC and RTG ADs,
>>>
>>>     I am sending the following message on behalf of the MPLS and the
>>>     PALS WG Chairs.
>>>
>>>     There is a concern shared among the security community and the
>>>     working groups that develop the LDP protocol that LDP is no
>>>     longer adequately secured. LDP currently relies on MD5 for
>>>     cryptographic security of its messages, but MD5 is a hash
>>>     function that is no longer considered to meet current security
>>>     requirements.
>>>
>>>     In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1 (Spoofing) , List
>>>     element 2. Session communication carried by TCP the following
>>>     statements is made:
>>>
>>>     "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature Option to provide
>>>     for the authenticity and integrity of session messages.
>>>
>>>     "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is now considered by
>>>     some to be too weak for this application.  It also points out
>>>     that a similar TCP option with a stronger hashing algorithm (it
>>>     cites SHA-1 as an example) could be deployed.  To our knowledge,
>>>     no such TCP option has been defined and deployed. However, we
>>>     note that LDP can use whatever TCP message digest techniques are
>>>     available, and when one stronger than MD5 is specified and
>>>     implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be relatively
>>>     straightforward."
>>>
>>>     We note that BGP has already been through this process, and
>>>     replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC 7454. I would be logical to
>>>     follow the same approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we
>>>     are able to ascertain, there is currently no recommended,
>>>     mandatory to implement, cryptographic function specified. We are
>>>     concerned that without such a mandatory function,
>>>     implementations will simply fall back to MD5 and we will be no
>>>     further forward
>>>
>>>     We think that the best way forward is to publish a draft similar
>>>     to RFC 7454 that contains the following requirement:
>>>
>>>     "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST implement TCP-AO to
>>>     secure the TCP sessions carrying LDP in addition to the
>>>     currently required TCP MD5 Signature Option. Furthermore, the
>>>     TBD cryptographic mechanism must be implemented and provided to
>>>     TCP-AO to secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the
>>>     preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used when TBD is
>>>     unavailable."
>>>
>>>     We are not an experts on this part of the stack, but it seems
>>>     that TCP security negotiation is still work in progress. If we
>>>     are wrong, then we need to include a requirement that such
>>>     negotiation is also required. In the absence of a negotiation
>>>     protocol, however, we need to leave this as a configuration
>>>     process until such time as the negotiation protocol work is
>>>     complete. On completion of a suitable negotiation protocol we
>>>     need to issue a further update requiring its use.
>>>
>>>     Additionally we should note that no cryptographic mechanism has
>>>     an indefinite lifetime, and that implementation should note the
>>>     IETF anticipates updating the default cryptographic mechanism
>>>     over time.
>>>
>>>     The TBD default security function will need to be chosen such
>>>     that it can reasonably be implemented on a typical router route
>>>     processor, and which will provide adequate security without
>>>     significantly degrading the convergence time of an LSR. Without
>>>     a function that does not significantly impact router convergence
>>>     we simply close one vulnerability and open another.
>>>
>>>     As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on security mechanisms,
>>>     we  need to ask the security area for a review of our proposed
>>>     approach, and help correcting any misunderstanding of the
>>>     security issues or our misunderstanding of the existing security
>>>     mechanisms. We also need the recommendations of a suitable
>>>     security function (TBD in the above text).
>>>
>>>     Best regards
>>>
>>>     The MPLS WG Chairs
>>>     The PALS WG Chairs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> tcpm mailing list
>>> tcpm@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list
>> mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> mpls@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls


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    <p>An operator’s view here. Addressing multiple points in a single
      message here. <br>
      <br>
      Yes, the issue is with adoption. It is not being adopted because
      the problem solution does not necessary address the actual
      problem. <br>
      <br>
      Taking BGP as an example (and most of this applies to LDP as well)
      – we need to differentiate what security means in BGP context. Is
      it BGP transport security – the confidentiality of BGP messages
      exchanged between the peers (which MD5 or AO can address), or BGP
      information security – whether the peer is authorized to advertise
      a prefix and with what attributes (to which the presence or
      absence of MD5 and AO is orthogonal). <br>
      <br>
      Any cryptographically strong security mechanism is not a
      substitute for practical operational hygiene. If you have right
      confidentiality mechanism for BGP transport but do not implement
      proper edge filtering – you will run into problems. Not because
      there will be a compromise of BGP session transport, but because
      there will be a variety of DoS forms on the BGP component itself
      and the platform on which it is running. Proper edge filtering
      plus TTL validation is good enough and simple enough to be
      universally deployed, and MD5 option is used to validate that you
      are indeed speaking to the same peer to which you were speaking
      before the maintenance window, it is a form of a strong checksum.
      AO or BGP over TLS (dare I to say that :-) ) does nothing to
      address the BGP information security aspects of who is or is not
      allowed to advertise certain types of BGP routing information –
      which is the source of virtually all of practical (and successful)
      attacks happening in BGP context. This is the reason why AO or
      some other strong cryptographic mechanism for BGP transport
      session is not on the top of the list of operational worries, if
      at that list at all. RPKI family of solutions tries to address the
      BGP information security part. It tries, not necessary addresses
      it in a practical way. But that is above the session level
      security problems. <br>
      <br>
      Any cryptographically strong security mechanism is not a
      substitute for proper network design. Taking the DC example, if
      the attack vector is based on the tenant’s ability to interfere
      with BGP sessions used for controlling the topology that does not
      belong to the tenant – that is a broken network design, and it
      should be fixed first before trying to fix BGP itself. BGP is not
      at fault here, the design of the network that does not allow for
      sufficient isolation between entities is. No protocol is able to
      fix the design problems by itself. <br>
      <br>
      This does not mean that AO or some other transport security
      mechanism is not relevant or not needed. At least the solution for
      key rollover that is better than manual synchronization over phone
      is definitely of value. <br>
      <br>
      Ignas<br>
      <br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/11/2017 03:11, Jeff Tantsura
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:697AC959-60C2-401D-9E64-D88E16F35EBB@gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      Joe,
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>There’s no problem with updating, the problem is with
        adoption...<br>
        <br>
        <div id="AppleMailSignature">Regards,
          <div>Jeff</div>
        </div>
        <div><br>
          On Nov 11, 2017, at 08:48, Joe Touch &lt;<a
            href="mailto:touch@strayalpha.com" moz-do-not-send="true">touch@strayalpha.com</a>&gt;
          wrote:<br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div>
            <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
              charset=utf-8">
            <p>Hi, all,</p>
            <p>I don't see a problem if there's a need for updating
              TCP-AO to include/require other algorithms. It was
              intended to be extensible.</p>
            <p>I agree with the issue of key management. There was some
              work on extensions to IKE to enable its use to manage
              TCP-AO parameters and keys, but it stalled twice:</p>
            <p>M. Jethanandani, B. Weis, K. Patel, D. Zhang, S. Hartman,
              U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “<a
                href="http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-mahesh-karp-rkmp-05.txt"
                moz-do-not-send="true">Negotiation for Keying Pairwise
                Routing Protocols in IKEv2</a>,” (RFC in progress), Nov.
              2013.</p>
            <p>U. Chunduri, A. Tian, J. Touch, “<a
href="http://www.isi.edu/touch/pubs/draft-chunduri-karp-using-ikev2-with-tcp-ao-06.txt"
                moz-do-not-send="true">Using IKEv2 with TCP-AO</a>,”
              (RFC in progress), Feb. 2014.</p>
            <p>AFAICT, that would go a long way towards addressing the
              issues with its use outside routing environments where
              keys are already considered sufficiently managed.</p>
            <p>However, the larger problem with TCP-AO is that there are
              no implementations available in end system OSes (AFAICT).
              Designing a new solution simply to avoid implementing an
              existing one would be a significant waste of time.<br>
            </p>
            <p>Joe<br>
            </p>
            <br>
            <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2017 8:21 AM, Scharf,
              Michael (Nokia - DE/Stuttgart) wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:AM5PR0701MB25472EFBB94C1C98EA2606B393540@AM5PR0701MB2547.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com">
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              <div class="WordSection1">
                <p class="MsoPlainText">+TCPM <o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText">Please free to discuss changes
                  to TCP-AO on the TCPM list, or speak up at the
                  upcoming TCPM meeting.<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText">The addition of SHA-256 has been
                  discussed in TCPM already (see
                  draft-nayak-tcp-sha2-02), but so far there was not
                  much energy and no interest from potential TCP-AO
                  implementers or users.<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText">(TCPM co-chair)<o:p></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoPlainText"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue
                  1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">
                  <div>
                    <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
                      1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> mpls [<a
                          class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                          href="mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
                        <b>On Behalf Of </b>Eric Rescorla<br>
                        <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 08, 2017 7:00
                        PM<br>
                        <b>To:</b> Stewart Bryant <a
                          class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;stewart.bryant@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
                        <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a>; <a
                          class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">pals-chairs@tools.ietf.org</a>;
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:rtg-ads@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rtg-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>;
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:mpls-chairs@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">mpls-chairs@ietf.org</a>;
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                          href="mailto:pals@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">pals@ietf.org</a>; <a
                          class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                          href="mailto:sec-ads@ietf.org"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;sec-ads@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                        <b>Subject:</b> Re: [mpls] LDP Security<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Stewart<o:p></o:p></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks for your note.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">My overall sense of the state
                        of play is, I think much like yours.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">TCP-MD5 is inadequate in two
                        major respects:<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">- It uses weak algorithms<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">- It has a bad
                        negotiation/setuop story (manual key management)<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">TCP-AO is intended to be a
                        drop-in replacement for TCP-MD5 and so remedies
                        the algorithm<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">issue but not the key
                        management issue [0]. We haven't made much
                        progress on the key<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">management story, and that
                        seems to be a major impediment to deploying
                        either of these<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">technologies (which I am
                        given to understand don't see a lot of use). We
                        should probably<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">talk in Singapore about that,
                        but that's not going to get better any time
                        soon.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">In the interim, I think the
                        text you have is OK, and "TBD" should read
                        "SHA-256", with<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">the fallback being SHA-256
                        -&gt; SHA-1 -&gt; MD5.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">-Ekr<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">[0] Technically It has better
                        support for rollover, but this is not a huge
                        improvement.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">[1] tcpcrypt is kind of
                        orthogonal here as it's unauthenticated but
                        opportunistic.  That said,<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">it would provide defense
                        against attackers who gain access to the link
                        after connection<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">setup and doesn't require
                        configuration.<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:27
                        AM, Stewart Bryant &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">stewart.bryant@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                      <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                        #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
                        6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                          style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">To the SEC and
                          RTG ADs,<br>
                          <br>
                          I am sending the following message on behalf
                          of the MPLS and the<br>
                          PALS WG Chairs.<br>
                          <br>
                          There is a concern shared among the security
                          community and the working groups that develop
                          the LDP protocol that LDP is no longer
                          adequately secured. LDP currently relies on
                          MD5 for cryptographic security of its
                          messages, but MD5 is a hash function that is
                          no longer considered to meet current security
                          requirements.<br>
                          <br>
                          In RFC5036 (published 2007) Section 5.1
                          (Spoofing) , List element 2. Session
                          communication carried by TCP the following
                          statements is made:<br>
                          <br>
                          "LDP specifies use of the TCP MD5 Signature
                          Option to provide for the authenticity and
                          integrity of session messages.<br>
                          <br>
                          "[RFC2385] asserts that MD5 authentication is
                          now considered by some to be too weak for this
                          application.  It also points out that a
                          similar TCP option with a stronger hashing
                          algorithm (it cites SHA-1 as an example) could
                          be deployed.  To our knowledge, no such TCP
                          option has been defined and deployed. 
                          However, we note that LDP can use whatever TCP
                          message digest techniques are available, and
                          when one stronger than MD5 is specified and
                          implemented, upgrading LDP to use it would be
                          relatively straightforward."<br>
                          <br>
                          We note that BGP has already been through this
                          process, and replaced MD5 with TCP-AO in RFC
                          7454. I would be logical to follow the same
                          approach to secure LDP. However, as far as we
                          are able to ascertain, there is currently no
                          recommended, mandatory to implement,
                          cryptographic function specified. We are
                          concerned that without such a mandatory
                          function, implementations will simply fall
                          back to MD5 and we will be no further forward<br>
                          <br>
                          We think that the best way forward is to
                          publish a draft similar to RFC 7454 that
                          contains the following requirement:<br>
                          <br>
                          "Implementations conforming to this RFC MUST
                          implement TCP-AO to secure the TCP sessions
                          carrying LDP in addition to the currently
                          required TCP MD5 Signature Option.
                          Furthermore, the TBD cryptographic mechanism
                          must be implemented and provided to TCP-AO to
                          secure LDP messages. The TBD mechanism is the
                          preferred option, and MD5 is only to be used
                          when TBD is unavailable."<br>
                          <br>
                          We are not an experts on this part of the
                          stack, but it seems that TCP security
                          negotiation is still work in progress. If we
                          are wrong, then we need to include a
                          requirement that such negotiation is also
                          required. In the absence of a negotiation
                          protocol, however, we need to leave this as a
                          configuration process until such time as the
                          negotiation protocol work is complete. On
                          completion of a suitable negotiation protocol
                          we need to issue a further update requiring
                          its use.<br>
                          <br>
                          Additionally we should note that no
                          cryptographic mechanism has an indefinite
                          lifetime, and that implementation should note
                          the IETF anticipates updating the default
                          cryptographic mechanism over time.<br>
                          <br>
                          The TBD default security function will need to
                          be chosen such that it can reasonably be
                          implemented on a typical router route
                          processor, and which will provide adequate
                          security without significantly degrading the
                          convergence time of an LSR. Without a function
                          that does not significantly impact router
                          convergence we simply close one vulnerability
                          and open another.<br>
                          <br>
                          As experts on the LDP protocol, but not on
                          security mechanisms, we  need to ask the
                          security area for a review of our proposed
                          approach, and help correcting any
                          misunderstanding of the security issues or our
                          misunderstanding of the existing security
                          mechanisms. We also need the recommendations
                          of a suitable security function (TBD in the
                          above text).<br>
                          <br>
                          Best regards<br>
                          <br>
                          The MPLS WG Chairs<br>
                          The PALS WG Chairs<br>
                          <br>
                          <o:p></o:p></p>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
              <br>
              <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tcpm@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">tcpm@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm</a>
</pre>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
            <span>mpls mailing list</span><br>
            <span><a href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">mpls@ietf.org</a></span><br>
            <span><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls"
                moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a></span><br>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mpls@ietf.org">mpls@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------12525C3C2481F53811CFBDBA--


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From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] [mpls]  LDP Security
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On 11/13/2017 1:24 AM, Ignas Bagdonas wrote:
>
> An operator’s view here. Addressing multiple points in a single
> message here.
>
> Yes, the issue is with adoption. It is not being adopted because the
> problem solution does not necessary address the actual problem.
>
> Taking BGP as an example (and most of this applies to LDP as well) –
> we need to differentiate what security means in BGP context. Is it BGP
> transport security – the confidentiality of BGP messages exchanged
> between the peers (which MD5 or AO can address), or BGP information
> security – whether the peer is authorized to advertise a prefix and
> with what attributes (to which the presence or absence of MD5 and AO
> is orthogonal).
>
I had thought it was widely understood that there are two components to
protecting BGP:

        - TCP-AO - to protect the TCP connections from attack and
authenticate the endpoint pairs
        - BGPsec - to validate the authenticity of relayed prefix
advertisements and ensure its legitimacy

Is there a third aspect that isn't included here that you feel is
missing? Or do you feel one of these inadequate in performing *the
function it is designed for*?

Joe



From nobody Tue Nov 14 14:23:39 2017
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Subject: [tcpm] Document Action: 'CUBIC for Fast Long-Distance Networks' to Informational RFC (draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic-07.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'CUBIC for Fast Long-Distance Networks'
  (draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic-07.txt) as Informational RFC

This document is the product of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions
Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Mirja Kühlewind and Spencer Dawkins.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-cubic/





Technical Summary

   This document describes CUBIC which is a congestion control algorithm
   used in TCP. CUBIC modifies the standard congestion control mechanism in 
   TCP in order to address low utilization issues for networks with large BDP.
   CUBIC is well deployed in the current Internet since it has been used as
   the default congestion control scheme in Linux. The objective of the draft 
   is to document the mechanism of CUBIC in Linux code as an informational RFC.

Working Group Summary

   The TCPM working group has discussed how to document CUBIC mechanism 
   and reached the consensus to describe what is currently implemented as an
   informational RFC. While the WG spent two year to discuss the draft, no major 
   controversial point has been raised during this process.

Document Quality

   The draft has been reviewed and discussed by various participants in the WG 
   including experts from Linux kernel development community which have been 
   useful to adjust the description of detailed logics.

Personnel

  The document shepherd is Yoshifumi Nishida <nishida@sfc.wide.ad.jp>.
  The responsible Area Director is Mirja Kuehlewind <ietf@kuehlewind.net>.


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Dear CoRE WG,

As we discussed during Monday=E2=80=99s CoRE session, the cocoa draft is =
in good shape for WGLC.=20
We will do a 4 week WGLC to give time to the folks at ICCRG and TCPM =
(cced) to provide feedback.=20

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-cocoa-02 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-cocoa-02>=20

Best Regards,
- - Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14px;">Dear CoRE WG,</div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">As we =
discussed during Monday=E2=80=99s CoRE session, the cocoa draft is in =
good shape for WGLC.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">We will do a 4 week WGLC to give =
time to the folks at ICCRG and TCPM (cced) to provide =
feedback.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-cocoa-02" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-cocoa-02</a><font =
face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></font></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Best =
Regards,</div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px;">- - Jaime Jim=C3=A9nez</div></body></html>=

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From: Naeem Khademi <naeemk@ifi.uio.no>
To: Lawrence Stewart <lstewart@freebsd.org>
CC: "tcpm@ietf.org Extensions" <tcpm@ietf.org>, "Bless, Roland (TM)" <roland.bless@kit.edu>, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>
Thread-Topic: [tcpm] Review of draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-02
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:14:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Review of draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-02
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--_004_195D08F413114A91B55840D4370F8F00ifiuiono_
Content-Type: text/plain;
	name="draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-04.txt"
Content-Description: draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-04.txt
Content-Disposition: attachment;
	filename="draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-04.txt"; size=28568;
	creation-date="Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:14:02 GMT";
	modification-date="Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:14:02 GMT"
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From: Naeem Khademi <naeemk@ifi.uio.no>
To: "Bless, Roland (TM)" <roland.bless@kit.edu>
CC: "tcpm@ietf.org Extensions" <tcpm@ietf.org>, Michael Welzl <michawe@ifi.uio.no>, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, "grenville armitage" <garmitage@swin.edu.au>
Thread-Topic: Review of draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-02
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Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:53:57 +0000
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Review of draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-02
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From nobody Wed Nov 15 06:31:00 2017
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Subject: [tcpm] I-D Action: draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the TCP Maintenance and Minor Extensions WG of the IETF.

        Title           : TCP Alternative Backoff with ECN (ABE)
        Authors         : Naeem Khademi
                          Michael Welzl
                          Grenville Armitage
                          Godred Fairhurst
	Filename        : draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-04.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2017-11-15

Abstract:
   Recent Active Queue Management (AQM) mechanisms allow for burst
   tolerance while enforcing short queues to minimise the time that
   packets spend enqueued at a bottleneck.  This can cause noticeable
   performance degradation for TCP connections traversing such a
   bottleneck, especially if they are only a few or their bandwidth-
   delay-product is large.  An Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN)
   signal indicates that an AQM mechanism is used at the bottleneck, and
   therefore the bottleneck network queue is likely to be short.  This
   document therefore proposes an update to the TCP sender-side ECN
   reaction in congestion avoidance to reduce the Congestion Window
   (cwnd) by a smaller amount than the congestion control algorithm's
   reaction to inferred packet loss.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-04
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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I volunteered to review this draft in Prague, so in classic "just before th=
e deadline" IETF style, here are some comments.

The draft is applicable to use of AQM in general, but seems to limit its fo=
cus/analysis to modern AQM mechanisms such as PIE and CoDel.  Some broader =
discussion of older AQM mechanisms would be a good idea, although it may no=
t be necessary to go all the way back to RED.
As part of that, this text at the end of Section 4.1:

           ([RFC7567<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7567>] notes the curren=
t status of RED as an AQM method.)
should be strengthened to indicate that current usage of RED is limited.

--Section 3:



   This specification describes an update to the congestion control

   algorithm of an ECN-capable TCP transport protocol.  It allows a TCP

   stack to update the TCP sender response when it receives feedback

   indicating reception of a CE-marked packet.  It RECOMMENDS that a TCP

   sender multiplies the slow start threshold (ssthresh) by 0.8 times of

   the FlightSize (with its minimum value set to 2 * SMSS) and reduces

   the cwnd in congestion avoidance following reception of a TCP segment

   that sets the ECN-Echo flag (defined in [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/rfc3168>]).

This text has several problems including:
               - it's not clear what the update is
               - "allows" is too weak a verb
               - "RECOMMENDS" is not an RFC 2119 keyword

Attempted rewrite, including additional editorial changes:


   This specification updates the congestion control

   algorithm of an ECN-capable TCP transport protocol by changing the

   the TCP sender response to feedback from the TCP receiver that

   indicates reception of a CE-marked packet, i.e., receipt of a packet

   with the ECN-Echo flag (defined in [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
rfc3168>]) set.  The updated

   TCP sender response specification is that the slow

   start threshold (ssthresh) SHOULD be multiplied by 0.8 times

   the FlightSize with the result increased to the minimum ssthresh

   value of 2 * SMSS if necessary.  The TCP sender also reduces the

   the cwnd value to that new ssthresh value.

In Section 4.3, the text is not clear that the same cwnd reduction applies =
to both ECN and packet loss.

Section 5:

OLD

   The currently published ECN specification requires that the

   congestion control response to a CE-marked packet is the same as the

   response to a dropped packet [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc316=
8>].  The specification is

   currently being updated to allow for specifications that do not

   follow this rule [I-D.ECN-exp<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcp=
m-alternativebackoff-ecn-03#ref-I-D.ECN-exp>].  The present specification d=
efines

   such an experiment and has thus been assigned an Experimental status

   before being proposed as a Standards-Track update.
NEW

   The original ECN specification, RFC 3168 [RFC3168], required that the

   congestion control response to a CE-marked packet be the same as the

   response to a dropped packet [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc316=
8>].  That requirement has been

   relaxed by RFC YYYY [I-D.ECN-exp<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-=
tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03#ref-I-D.ECN-exp>] to enable experimentation =
with different

   congestion control responses.  The present specification is one such

   experiment; if the experiment succeeds, the changed congestion control

   response will be published in a standards track RFC to encourage deploym=
ent.

In:


   To evaluate the benefit, this experiment therefore requires support

   in AQM routers (except to enable an ECN-marking mechanism [RFC3168<https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3168>]

   [RFC7567<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7567>]) for ECN-marking of packe=
ts carrying the ECN Capable

   Transport, ECT(0), codepoint [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc316=
8>].

I don't understand the parenthetical "(except to ...)" text - can that just=
 be deleted?

Thanks, --David
----------------------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 293-7953    Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
David.Black@dell.com<mailto:David.Black@dell.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I volunteered to review this draft in Prague, so in =
classic &#8220;just before the deadline&#8221; IETF style, here are some co=
mments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft is applicable to use of AQM in general, bu=
t seems to limit its focus/analysis to modern AQM mechanisms such as PIE an=
d CoDel.&nbsp; Some broader discussion of older AQM mechanisms would be a g=
ood idea, although it may not be necessary
 to go all the way back to RED.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As part of that, this text at the end of Section 4.1=
:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ([<a href=3D"h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7567" title=3D"&quot;IETF Recommendations Reg=
arding Active Queue Management&quot;">RFC7567</a>] notes the current status=
 of RED as an AQM method.)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">should be strengthened to indicate that current usag=
e of RED is limited.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--Section 3:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; This specification describes an update to the congestion =
control<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; algorithm of an ECN-capable TCP transport protocol.&nbsp;=
 It allows a TCP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; stack to update the TCP sender response when it receives =
feedback<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; indicating reception of a CE-marked packet.&nbsp; It RECO=
MMENDS that a TCP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; sender multiplies the slow start threshold (ssthresh) by =
0.8 times of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the FlightSize (with its minimum value set to 2 * SMSS) a=
nd reduces<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the cwnd in congestion avoidance following reception of a=
 TCP segment<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; that sets the ECN-Echo flag (defined in [<a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Con=
gestion Notification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>]). <o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This text has several problems including:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - it&#8217;s not clear what the update is =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - &#8220;allows&#8221; is too weak a verb<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - &#8220;RECOMMENDS&#8221; is not an RFC 2=
119 keyword<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Attempted rewrite, including additional editorial ch=
anges: <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; This specification updates the congestion control<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; algorithm of an ECN-capable TCP transport protocol by cha=
nging the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the TCP sender response to feedback from the TCP receiver=
 that<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; indicates reception of a CE-marked packet, i.e., receipt =
of a packet<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; with the ECN-Echo flag (defined in [<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Congesti=
on Notification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>]) set.&nbsp; The updated<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; TCP sender response specification is that the slow<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; start threshold (ssthresh) SHOULD be multiplied by 0.8 ti=
mes<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the FlightSize with the result increased to the minimum s=
sthresh<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; value of 2 * SMSS if necessary.&nbsp; The TCP sender also=
 reduces the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the cwnd value to that new ssthresh value.<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Section 4.3, the text is not clear that the same =
cwnd reduction applies to both ECN and packet loss.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 5:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OLD<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The currently published ECN specification requires that t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; congestion control response to a CE-marked packet is the =
same as the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; response to a dropped packet [<a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Congestion Not=
ification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>].&nbsp; The specification is<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; currently being updated to allow for specifications that =
do not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; follow this rule [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03#ref-I-D.ECN-exp">I-D.ECN-exp</a>]=
.&nbsp; The present specification defines<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; such an experiment and has thus been assigned an Experime=
ntal status<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; before being proposed as a Standards-Track update.<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">NEW<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The original ECN specification, RFC 3168 [RFC3168], requi=
red that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; congestion control response to a CE-marked packet be the =
same as the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; response to a dropped packet [<a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Congestion Not=
ification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>].&nbsp; That requirement has been<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; relaxed by RFC YYYY [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03#ref-I-D.ECN-exp">I-D.ECN-exp</=
a>] to enable experimentation with different<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; congestion control responses.&nbsp; The present specifica=
tion is one such<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; experiment; if the experiment succeeds, the changed conge=
stion control<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; response will be published in a standards track RFC to en=
courage deployment.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; To evaluate the benefit, this experiment therefore requir=
es support<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; in AQM routers (except to enable an ECN-marking mechanism=
 [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Additi=
on of Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>]<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7567" title=3D=
"&quot;IETF Recommendations Regarding Active Queue Management&quot;">RFC756=
7</a>]) for ECN-marking of packets carrying the ECN Capable<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Transport, ECT(0), codepoint [<a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Congestion Not=
ification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t understand the parenthetical &#8220;(e=
xcept to &#8230;)&#8221; text &#8211; can that just be deleted?&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, --David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------------=
------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA&nbsp; 01748<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#43;1 (508) 293-7953&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mobile: &#43=
;1 (978) 394-7754<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:David.Black@dell.com"><span style=
=3D"color:#0563C1">David.Black@dell.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------------=
------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03
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Updating to -04 inline ...

Thanks, --David

From: Black, David
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 9:46 AM
To: tcpm@ietf.org
Cc: Black, David <david.black@emc.com>
Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03

I volunteered to review this draft in Prague, so in classic "just before th=
e deadline" IETF style, here are some comments.

The draft is applicable to use of AQM in general, but seems to limit its fo=
cus/analysis to modern AQM mechanisms such as PIE and CoDel.  Some broader =
discussion of older AQM mechanisms would be a good idea, although it may no=
t be necessary to go all the way back to RED.
As part of that, this text at the end of Section 4.1:

           ([RFC7567<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7567>] notes the curren=
t status of RED as an AQM method.)
should be strengthened to indicate that current usage of RED is limited.
[David>] Still the case - both the scope of AQMs considered and the specifi=
c language about RED.

--Section 3:



   This specification describes an update to the congestion control

   algorithm of an ECN-capable TCP transport protocol.  It allows a TCP

   stack to update the TCP sender response when it receives feedback

   indicating reception of a CE-marked packet.  It RECOMMENDS that a TCP

   sender multiplies the slow start threshold (ssthresh) by 0.8 times of

   the FlightSize (with its minimum value set to 2 * SMSS) and reduces

   the cwnd in congestion avoidance following reception of a TCP segment

   that sets the ECN-Echo flag (defined in [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/rfc3168>]).

This text has several problems including:
               - it's not clear what the update is
               - "allows" is too weak a verb
               - "RECOMMENDS" is not an RFC 2119 keyword
[David>] Still the case, although the original text has been slightly edite=
d in -04.

Attempted rewrite, including additional editorial changes:


   This specification updates the congestion control

   algorithm of an ECN-capable TCP transport protocol by changing the

   the TCP sender response to feedback from the TCP receiver that

   indicates reception of a CE-marked packet, i.e., receipt of a packet

   with the ECN-Echo flag (defined in [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
rfc3168>]) set.  The updated

   TCP sender response specification is that the slow

   start threshold (ssthresh) SHOULD be multiplied by 0.8 times

   the FlightSize with the result increased to the minimum ssthresh

   value of 2 * SMSS if necessary.  The TCP sender also reduces the

   the cwnd value to that new ssthresh value.

In Section 4.3, the text is not clear that the same cwnd reduction applies =
to both ECN and packet loss.
[David>] Still the case - it's not clear whether "cwnd =3D ssthresh" applie=
s to both preceding assignments or just the immediately preceding one.

Section 5:

OLD

   The currently published ECN specification requires that the

   congestion control response to a CE-marked packet is the same as the

   response to a dropped packet [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc316=
8>].  The specification is

   currently being updated to allow for specifications that do not

   follow this rule [I-D.ECN-exp<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcp=
m-alternativebackoff-ecn-03#ref-I-D.ECN-exp>].  The present specification d=
efines

   such an experiment and has thus been assigned an Experimental status

   before being proposed as a Standards-Track update.
NEW

   The original ECN specification, RFC 3168 [RFC3168], required that the

   congestion control response to a CE-marked packet be the same as the

   response to a dropped packet [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc316=
8>].  That requirement has been

   relaxed by RFC YYYY [I-D.ECN-exp<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-=
tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03#ref-I-D.ECN-exp>] to enable experimentation =
with different

   congestion control responses.  The present specification is one such

   experiment; if the experiment succeeds, the changed congestion control

   response will be published in a standards track RFC to encourage deploym=
ent.

[David>] Fixed in -04 w/different text.

In:


   To evaluate the benefit, this experiment therefore requires support

   in AQM routers (except to enable an ECN-marking mechanism [RFC3168<https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3168>]

   [RFC7567<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7567>]) for ECN-marking of packe=
ts carrying the ECN Capable

   Transport, ECT(0), codepoint [RFC3168<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc316=
8>].

I don't understand the parenthetical "(except to ...)" text - can that just=
 be deleted?
[David>] Still a concern in -04.


Thanks, --David
----------------------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer
Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 293-7953    Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
David.Black@dell.com<mailto:David.Black@dell.com>
----------------------------------------------------------------


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D">Updating to -04 inline &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks, --David<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Black, David <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 15, 2017 9:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> tcpm@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Black, David &lt;david.black@emc.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Comments on draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I volunteered to review this draft in Prague, so in =
classic &#8220;just before the deadline&#8221; IETF style, here are some co=
mments.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft is applicable to use of AQM in general, bu=
t seems to limit its focus/analysis to modern AQM mechanisms such as PIE an=
d CoDel.&nbsp; Some broader discussion of older AQM mechanisms would be a g=
ood idea, although it may not be necessary
 to go all the way back to RED.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As part of that, this text at the end of Section 4.1=
:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ([<a href=3D"h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7567" title=3D"&quot;IETF Recommendations Reg=
arding Active Queue Management&quot;">RFC7567</a>] notes the current status=
 of RED as an AQM method.)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">should be strengthened to indicate that current usag=
e of RED is limited.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[David&gt;] Stil=
l the case &#8211; both the scope of AQMs considered and the specific langu=
age about RED.</span></i></b><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">--Section 3:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; This specification describes an update to the congestion =
control<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; algorithm of an ECN-capable TCP transport protocol.&nbsp;=
 It allows a TCP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; stack to update the TCP sender response when it receives =
feedback<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; indicating reception of a CE-marked packet.&nbsp; It RECO=
MMENDS that a TCP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; sender multiplies the slow start threshold (ssthresh) by =
0.8 times of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the FlightSize (with its minimum value set to 2 * SMSS) a=
nd reduces<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the cwnd in congestion avoidance following reception of a=
 TCP segment<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; that sets the ECN-Echo flag (defined in [<a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Con=
gestion Notification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>]). <o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This text has several problems including:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - it&#8217;s not clear what the update is =
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - &#8220;allows&#8221; is too weak a verb<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - &#8220;RECOMMENDS&#8221; is not an RFC 2=
119 keyword<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[David&gt;] Stil=
l the case, although the original text has been slightly edited in -04.</sp=
an></i></b><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Attempted rewrite, including additional editorial ch=
anges: <o:p>
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; This specification updates the congestion control<o:p></o=
:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; algorithm of an ECN-capable TCP transport protocol by cha=
nging the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the TCP sender response to feedback from the TCP receiver=
 that<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; indicates reception of a CE-marked packet, i.e., receipt =
of a packet<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; with the ECN-Echo flag (defined in [<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Congesti=
on Notification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>]) set.&nbsp; The updated<o:p=
></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; TCP sender response specification is that the slow<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; start threshold (ssthresh) SHOULD be multiplied by 0.8 ti=
mes<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the FlightSize with the result increased to the minimum s=
sthresh<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; value of 2 * SMSS if necessary.&nbsp; The TCP sender also=
 reduces the <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the cwnd value to that new ssthresh value.<o:p></o:p=
></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Section 4.3, the text is not clear that the same =
cwnd reduction applies to both ECN and packet loss.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[David&gt;] Stil=
l the case &#8211; it&#8217;s not clear whether &#8220;cwnd =3D ssthresh&#8=
221; applies to both preceding assignments or just the immediately precedin=
g one.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 5:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">OLD<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The currently published ECN specification requires that t=
he<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; congestion control response to a CE-marked packet is the =
same as the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; response to a dropped packet [<a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Congestion Not=
ification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>].&nbsp; The specification is<o:p><=
/o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; currently being updated to allow for specifications that =
do not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; follow this rule [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03#ref-I-D.ECN-exp">I-D.ECN-exp</a>]=
.&nbsp; The present specification defines<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; such an experiment and has thus been assigned an Experime=
ntal status<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; before being proposed as a Standards-Track update.<o:p></=
o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">NEW<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The original ECN specification, RFC 3168 [RFC3168], requi=
red that the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; congestion control response to a CE-marked packet be the =
same as the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; response to a dropped packet [<a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Congestion Not=
ification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>].&nbsp; That requirement has been<=
o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; relaxed by RFC YYYY [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-tcpm-alternativebackoff-ecn-03#ref-I-D.ECN-exp">I-D.ECN-exp</=
a>] to enable experimentation with different<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; congestion control responses.&nbsp; The present specifica=
tion is one such<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; experiment; if the experiment succeeds, the changed conge=
stion control<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; response will be published in a standards track RFC to en=
courage deployment.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:#1F497D">[David&gt;] Fixed in -04 w/different text.</span>=
</i></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,san=
s-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; To evaluate the benefit, this experiment therefore requir=
es support<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; in AQM routers (except to enable an ECN-marking mechanism=
 [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Additi=
on of Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>]<o:p>=
</o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7567" title=3D=
"&quot;IETF Recommendations Regarding Active Queue Management&quot;">RFC756=
7</a>]) for ECN-marking of packets carrying the ECN Capable<o:p></o:p></pre=
>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Transport, ECT(0), codepoint [<a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/rfc3168" title=3D"&quot;The Addition of Explicit Congestion Not=
ification (ECN) to IP&quot;">RFC3168</a>].<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t understand the parenthetical &#8220;(e=
xcept to &#8230;)&#8221; text &#8211; can that just be deleted?<span style=
=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[David&gt;] Stil=
l a concern in -04.<o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, --David<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------------=
------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">David L. Black, Distinguished Engineer<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dell EMC, 176 South St., Hopkinton, MA&nbsp; 01748<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#43;1 (508) 293-7953&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Mobile: &#43=
;1 (978) 394-7754<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:David.Black@dell.com">David.Black@=
dell.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">----------------------------------------------------=
------------<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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To: tcpm IETF list <tcpm@ietf.org>, "pravb@microsoft.com" <pravb@microsoft.com>, ANNA MARIA MANDALARI <amandala@it.uc3m.es>
From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
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Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:13:04 +0800
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tcpm/hfraWu1Wb4TEGqk0-LZWlpOJaPA>
Subject: [tcpm] IW distribution
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Hi,
Find attached the detail about the Initial window we measured in the 
Alexa top 500k that was requested in the meeting.
If you need further data, let us know.
Regards, marcelo


--------------CE905D634DD661ECD5C4CAD8
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--------------CE905D634DD661ECD5C4CAD8--


From nobody Thu Nov 16 19:47:40 2017
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To: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>, tcpm@ietf.org
References: <5043d1eb-c98b-647d-af66-8fb47def432f@mti-systems.com>
From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 19:47:29 -0800
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tcpm/ByaQ2kd1Smnu_dbk_unH95HrUVM>
Subject: Re: [tcpm] 793bis: New security considerations section
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Hi, Wes (et al.),

It looks OK but appears to omit some of the advice from various
non-cryptographic security methods, notably that they are recommended
only in particular environments (e.g., see RFC 5961 Sec 1.1). IMO, the
same could be said of others that predate that consideration.

Joe

On 11/13/2017 11:22 AM, Wesley Eddy wrote:
> Hi, one thing that I want to make the WG aware of in the latest RFC
> 793bis draft is the new security and privacy considerations section.
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07#section-6
>
> The original RFC 793 predates security considerations sections, so I
> didn't have much to start from.  My goal was to point to relevant
> references without creating dozens of pages of meandering text on
> every little possible security issue (most of which are well-known by
> now).
>
> This is a first crack at it, and it could likely be improved in big
> ways.  Your feedback, suggestions, corrections, etc. is appreciated.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


From nobody Fri Nov 17 10:14:28 2017
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To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>, tcpm@ietf.org
References: <5043d1eb-c98b-647d-af66-8fb47def432f@mti-systems.com> <75ac651c-c99b-5923-388e-9f8a957a3ee5@strayalpha.com>
From: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] 793bis: New security considerations section
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Hi Joe, that is a great point, and I agree that the applicability 
statement you mention should be noted.

Additionally I wanted to mention that the way I currently handled RFC 
5961 in the document should be reviewed along with the Errata on 5961.

(1) I added references to 5961 added in the relevant places where 
validations are taking place, and content has been taken from the 
"Mitigation" subsections of 5961 where the state machine modifications live.

(2) I put in errata 5068 on RFC 5961 in order to correct a problem I 
found, but it isn't yet verified (but I so far assumed that it will be 
in 793bis).  See: 
https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5961&eid=5068

My description in the Notes there is:

    The text in section 3.2 begins by stating a change from RFC 793 for
    RST bit handling "when in a synchronized state" (which means all
    states except for LISTEN, SYN-SENT, and SYN-RECEIVED). Later in the
    section, the same change is described more loosely and text states
    that it's applicable "In all states except SYN-SENT", and separate
    behavior is provided for SYN-SENT, but the earlier text leaves
    uncertainty if the former is supposed to apply to SYN-RECEIVED as
    well, since the earlier text in the section section begins by
    discussing only "synchronized" states.

    Since the check is totally valid for SYN-RECEIVED, and the behavior
    in steps 1, 2, and 3 are valid for SYN-RECEIVED, it seems
    appropriate to make sure this is clarified in the earlier text.

If there isn't agreement that this should be Verified as an Errata to 
5961, then we'll have to change 793bis accordingly.





On 11/16/2017 10:47 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
> Hi, Wes (et al.),
>
> It looks OK but appears to omit some of the advice from various
> non-cryptographic security methods, notably that they are recommended
> only in particular environments (e.g., see RFC 5961 Sec 1.1). IMO, the
> same could be said of others that predate that consideration.
>
> Joe
>
> On 11/13/2017 11:22 AM, Wesley Eddy wrote:
>> Hi, one thing that I want to make the WG aware of in the latest RFC
>> 793bis draft is the new security and privacy considerations section.
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07#section-6
>>
>> The original RFC 793 predates security considerations sections, so I
>> didn't have much to start from.  My goal was to point to relevant
>> references without creating dozens of pages of meandering text on
>> every little possible security issue (most of which are well-known by
>> now).
>>
>> This is a first crack at it, and it could likely be improved in big
>> ways.  Your feedback, suggestions, corrections, etc. is appreciated.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tcpm mailing list
>> tcpm@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm


--------------FBB9DEFB9F84C72B9BAC7FA5
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>Hi Joe, that is a great point, and I agree that the applicability
      statement you mention should be noted.</p>
    <p>Additionally I wanted to mention that the way I currently handled
      RFC 5961 in the document should be reviewed along with the Errata
      on 5961.</p>
    <p>(1) I added references to 5961 added in the relevant places where
      validations are taking place, and content has been taken from the
      "Mitigation" subsections of 5961 where the state machine
      modifications live.</p>
    <p>(2) I put in errata 5068 on RFC 5961 in order to correct a
      problem I found, but it isn't yet verified (but I so far assumed
      that it will be in 793bis).  See:
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5961&amp;eid=5068">https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=5961&amp;eid=5068</a></p>
    <p>My description in the Notes there is:</p>
    <blockquote>
      <p><span style="color: rgb(44, 67, 83); font-family: &quot;Noto
          Sans&quot;, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
          font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
          text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
          white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(227,
          227, 227); text-decoration-style: initial;
          text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important;
          float: none;">The text in section 3.2 begins by stating a
          change from RFC 793 for RST bit handling "when in a
          synchronized state" (which means all states except for LISTEN,
          SYN-SENT, and SYN-RECEIVED). Later in the section, the same
          change is described more loosely and text states that it's
          applicable "In all states except SYN-SENT", and separate
          behavior is provided for SYN-SENT, but the earlier text leaves
          uncertainty if the former is supposed to apply to SYN-RECEIVED
          as well, since the earlier text in the section section begins
          by discussing only "synchronized" states.</span><br
          style="color: rgb(44, 67, 83); font-family: &quot;Noto
          Sans&quot;, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
          font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
          text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
          white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(227,
          227, 227); text-decoration-style: initial;
          text-decoration-color: initial;">
        <br style="color: rgb(44, 67, 83); font-family: &quot;Noto
          Sans&quot;, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
          font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
          text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
          white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(227,
          227, 227); text-decoration-style: initial;
          text-decoration-color: initial;">
        <span style="color: rgb(44, 67, 83); font-family: &quot;Noto
          Sans&quot;, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
          font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2;
          text-align: left; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
          white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(227,
          227, 227); text-decoration-style: initial;
          text-decoration-color: initial; display: inline !important;
          float: none;">Since the check is totally valid for
          SYN-RECEIVED, and the behavior in steps 1, 2, and 3 are valid
          for SYN-RECEIVED, it seems appropriate to make sure this is
          clarified in the earlier text.</span></p>
    </blockquote>
    <p>If there isn't agreement that this should be Verified as an
      Errata to 5961, then we'll have to change 793bis accordingly.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/16/2017 10:47 PM, Joe Touch
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:75ac651c-c99b-5923-388e-9f8a957a3ee5@strayalpha.com">
      <pre wrap="">Hi, Wes (et al.),

It looks OK but appears to omit some of the advice from various
non-cryptographic security methods, notably that they are recommended
only in particular environments (e.g., see RFC 5961 Sec 1.1). IMO, the
same could be said of others that predate that consideration.

Joe

On 11/13/2017 11:22 AM, Wesley Eddy wrote:
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Hi, one thing that I want to make the WG aware of in the latest RFC
793bis draft is the new security and privacy considerations section.

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07#section-6">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tcpm-rfc793bis-07#section-6</a>

The original RFC 793 predates security considerations sections, so I
didn't have much to start from.  My goal was to point to relevant
references without creating dozens of pages of meandering text on
every little possible security issue (most of which are well-known by
now).

This is a first crack at it, and it could likely be improved in big
ways.  Your feedback, suggestions, corrections, etc. is appreciated.


_______________________________________________
tcpm mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tcpm@ietf.org">tcpm@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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To: Wesley Eddy <wes@mti-systems.com>, tcpm@ietf.org
References: <5043d1eb-c98b-647d-af66-8fb47def432f@mti-systems.com> <75ac651c-c99b-5923-388e-9f8a957a3ee5@strayalpha.com> <3672e7a6-02d3-07db-78ce-6f9bcd40570c@mti-systems.com>
From: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] 793bis: New security considerations section
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On 11/17/2017 10:14 AM, Wesley Eddy wrote:
> Hi Joe, that is a great point, and I agree that the applicability
> statement you mention should be noted.

FWIW, I also think that the security section should be a little more
clear on the following:

    - if you want TCP security, you need IPsec or TCP-AO
        anything else protects only a small fraction of TCP control
(tcpcrypt) or no TCP control at all (TLS)
    - all other "security" measures only partially hinder attacks at
best (they might be better at anti-tracking than attack resistance)
        e.g., ISN generation, RST sequence number checks, etc.

Joe


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From: Marc <gaardiolor@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 15:59:12 +0100
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Subject: [tcpm] increased back-off across different retransmissions
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Hello,

I'm reading RFC 6298, which mentions the TCP back-off algorithm. One detail
is not very clear in this RFC, or maybe I'm missing it. Hope someone can
point me in the right direction!

In our network we have a link that's sometimes congested. When that's the
case, sometimes we have a TCP connection that just has a streak of bad luck
and loses multiple packets in a row. See attachment for an example, taken
on a switch connected to the server. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to share
the PCAP.. But I think / hope the tcpdump information contains everything
needed (time, ip, port, win, seq, len, ack, sack, sle, sre..)

Client: 1.1.1.1
Server: 2.2.2.2

So some packets from Server to Client are dropped. I've marked the packets
below in attachment with P1 until P7.

Packet 1: seq 135650, len 1348, dropped
Packet 2: seq 136998, len 1348, received <-- so this one is not dropped
Packet 3: seq 138346, len 1348, dropped
Packet 4: seq 139694, len 81, dropped
Packet 5: seq 139775, len 1348, dropped
Packet 6: seq 141123, len 1348, dropped
Packet 7: seq 142471, len 1221, dropped

Then the retransmissions, marked in attachment with R1 until R5:
- Retransmission 1: 0.5 sec after dropped 'Packet 1', packet with seq
135650, len 1348 is retransmitted.
Ack <10ms. Now the ack # is 138346, higher than seq135650 + len1348 =
136998, the client is also ack'ing 'Packet 2'.

- Retransmission 2: 1.1 seconds after Retransmission 1, packet with seq
138346, len 1348 is retransmitted.
Ack <10ms, ack # 139694 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 2). This
Retransmission covers dropped 'Packet 3'

- Retransmission 3: 2.8 seconds after Retransmission 2, packet with seq
139694, len 1348 is retransmitted.
Ack <10ms, ack # 141042 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 3). Note that
this packet contains data from dropped 'Packet 4' and 'Packet 5'

- Retransmission 4: 7.1 seconds after Retransmission 3, packet with seq
141042, len 1348 is retransmitted.
Ack <10ms, ack # 142390 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 4). Note that
this packet contains data from dropped 'Packet 5' and 'Packet 6'

- Retransmission 5: 17.8 seconds after Retransmission 4, packet with seq
142390, len 1302 is retransmitted.
Ack <10ms, ack # 143692 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 5). Note that
this packet contains data from dropped 'Packet 6' and 'Packet 7'

So the back-off is increased across _different_ retransmissions, despite
the fact those retransmissions are ack'ed very quickly. Now I know there is
a chance those acks are coming from the original tranmission so the server
can't calculate a new RTT, but well.. I'm not sure if exponentially (~ x2.5
in my case actually..) increasing the timer across different ack'ed
retransmissions is the right strategy here. 10 lost packets (which isn't
pretty, I know) in my case would mean 500 seconds of waiting.

Am I right that the RFC (or Karn's algorithm) doesn't make a statement
about this particular scenario ? In that case, should it be clarified ? Or
is this such an obvious bad strategy that it's overkill to explicitly
forbid it per RFC ?

Thanks,

Marc

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<br><br>I&#39;m reading RFC 6298, which mentions the=
 TCP back-off algorithm. One detail is not very clear in this RFC, or maybe=
 I&#39;m missing it. Hope someone can point me in the right direction!<div>=
<br></div><div>In our network we have a link that&#39;s sometimes congested=
. When that&#39;s the case, sometimes we have a TCP connection that just ha=
s a streak of bad luck and loses multiple packets in a row. See attachment =
for an example, taken on a switch connected to the server. Unfortunately I&=
#39;m not allowed to share the PCAP.. But I think / hope the tcpdump inform=
ation contains everything needed (time, ip, port, win, seq, len, ack, sack,=
 sle, sre..)</div><div><br></div><div>Client: 1.1.1.1</div><div>Server: 2.2=
.2.2</div><div><br></div><div>So some packets from Server to Client are dro=
pped. I&#39;ve marked the packets below in attachment with P1 until P7.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div><div>Packet 1: seq 135650, len 1348, dropped</=
div><div>Packet 2: seq 136998, len 1348, received &lt;-- so this one is not=
 dropped=C2=A0</div><div>Packet 3: seq 138346, len 1348, dropped=C2=A0</div=
><div>Packet 4: seq 139694, len 81, dropped=C2=A0</div><div>Packet 5: seq 1=
39775, len 1348, dropped=C2=A0</div><div>Packet 6: seq 141123, len 1348, dr=
opped=C2=A0</div><div>Packet 7: seq 142471, len 1221, dropped=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Then the retransmissions, marked in attachment with R1 un=
til R5:</div><div>- Retransmission 1: 0.5 sec after dropped &#39;Packet 1&#=
39;, packet with seq 135650, len 1348 is retransmitted.=C2=A0</div><div><sp=
an style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Ack &lt;10ms. Now the ack # is 13=
8346, higher than seq135650 + len1348 =3D 136998, the client is also ack&#3=
9;ing &#39;Packet 2&#39;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>- Retransmission 2=
: 1.1 seconds after Retransmission 1, packet with seq 138346, len 1348 is r=
etransmitted.=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>=
Ack &lt;10ms, ack # 139694 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 2). This Retr=
ansmission covers dropped &#39;Packet 3&#39;</div><div><br></div><div>- Ret=
ransmission 3: 2.8 seconds after Retransmission 2, packet with seq 139694, =
len 1348 is retransmitted.=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-w=
rap">	</span>Ack &lt;10ms, ack # 141042 (matches seq+len of Retransmission =
3). Note that this packet contains data from dropped &#39;Packet 4&#39; and=
 &#39;Packet 5&#39;</div><div><br></div><div>- Retransmission 4: 7.1 second=
s after Retransmission 3, packet with seq 141042, len 1348 is retransmitted=
.=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Ack &lt;10ms=
, ack # 142390 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 4). Note that this packet=
 contains data from dropped &#39;Packet 5&#39; and &#39;Packet 6&#39;</div>=
<div><br></div><div>- Retransmission 5: 17.8 seconds after Retransmission 4=
, packet with seq 142390, len 1302 is retransmitted.=C2=A0</div><div><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Ack &lt;10ms, ack # 143692 (matches =
seq+len of Retransmission 5). Note that this packet contains data from drop=
ped &#39;Packet 6&#39; and &#39;Packet 7&#39;</div></div><div><br></div><di=
v>So the back-off is increased across _different_ retransmissions, despite =
the fact those retransmissions are ack&#39;ed very quickly. Now I know ther=
e is a chance those acks are coming from the original tranmission so the se=
rver can&#39;t calculate a new RTT, but well.. I&#39;m not sure if exponent=
ially (~ x2.5 in my case actually..) increasing the timer across different =
ack&#39;ed retransmissions is the right strategy here. 10 lost packets (whi=
ch isn&#39;t pretty, I know) in my case would mean 500 seconds of waiting.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Am I right that the RFC (or Karn&#39;s algo=
rithm) doesn&#39;t make a statement about this particular scenario ? In tha=
t case, should it be clarified ? Or is this such an obvious bad strategy th=
at it&#39;s overkill to explicitly forbid it per RFC ?</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Marc</div></div>

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--94eb2c062734cefe59055e2efa7b--


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From: Yuchung Cheng <ycheng@google.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2017 15:56:06 -0800
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] increased back-off across different retransmissions
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On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 6:59 AM, Marc <gaardiolor@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I'm reading RFC 6298, which mentions the TCP back-off algorithm. One
> detail is not very clear in this RFC, or maybe I'm missing it. Hope someone
> can point me in the right direction!
>
> In our network we have a link that's sometimes congested. When that's the
> case, sometimes we have a TCP connection that just has a streak of bad luck
> and loses multiple packets in a row. See attachment for an example, taken
> on a switch connected to the server. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to share
> the PCAP.. But I think / hope the tcpdump information contains everything
> needed (time, ip, port, win, seq, len, ack, sack, sle, sre..)
>
> Client: 1.1.1.1
> Server: 2.2.2.2
>
> So some packets from Server to Client are dropped. I've marked the packets
> below in attachment with P1 until P7.
>
> Packet 1: seq 135650, len 1348, dropped
> Packet 2: seq 136998, len 1348, received <-- so this one is not dropped
> Packet 3: seq 138346, len 1348, dropped
> Packet 4: seq 139694, len 81, dropped
> Packet 5: seq 139775, len 1348, dropped
> Packet 6: seq 141123, len 1348, dropped
> Packet 7: seq 142471, len 1221, dropped
>
> Then the retransmissions, marked in attachment with R1 until R5:
> - Retransmission 1: 0.5 sec after dropped 'Packet 1', packet with seq
> 135650, len 1348 is retransmitted.
> Ack <10ms. Now the ack # is 138346, higher than seq135650 + len1348 =
> 136998, the client is also ack'ing 'Packet 2'.
>
> - Retransmission 2: 1.1 seconds after Retransmission 1, packet with seq
> 138346, len 1348 is retransmitted.
> Ack <10ms, ack # 139694 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 2). This
> Retransmission covers dropped 'Packet 3'
>
The sender does not seem to implement TCP RFCs correctly. According to the
RFC5681, upon the first timeout the sender should reduce cwnd to 1 and
enter slow start. Upon receiving the ACK of rtx of P2, cwnd would be 2 so
the sender should have retransmitted P3 and P4 right away. The next round
trip would retransmit P5,P6,P7. This is called slow start after timeout and
it should take only 0.5s + 10ms * 3.

Regarding the exponential backoff, RFC6298 section 5.2 (end) states that
RTO is recomputed whenever a new RTT sample is acquired, hence clearing the
backoff. But in your case there shouldn't be backoff at all. Normally we'd
see exponentially backoffs if the first unacked packet after timeout is
lost again (and again), which indicates severe congestion.

HTH


>
> - Retransmission 3: 2.8 seconds after Retransmission 2, packet with seq
> 139694, len 1348 is retransmitted.
> Ack <10ms, ack # 141042 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 3). Note that
> this packet contains data from dropped 'Packet 4' and 'Packet 5'
>
> - Retransmission 4: 7.1 seconds after Retransmission 3, packet with seq
> 141042, len 1348 is retransmitted.
> Ack <10ms, ack # 142390 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 4). Note that
> this packet contains data from dropped 'Packet 5' and 'Packet 6'
>
> - Retransmission 5: 17.8 seconds after Retransmission 4, packet with seq
> 142390, len 1302 is retransmitted.
> Ack <10ms, ack # 143692 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 5). Note that
> this packet contains data from dropped 'Packet 6' and 'Packet 7'
>
> So the back-off is increased across _different_ retransmissions, despite
> the fact those retransmissions are ack'ed very quickly. Now I know there is
> a chance those acks are coming from the original tranmission so the server
> can't calculate a new RTT, but well.. I'm not sure if exponentially (~ x2.5
> in my case actually..) increasing the timer across different ack'ed
> retransmissions is the right strategy here. 10 lost packets (which isn't
> pretty, I know) in my case would mean 500 seconds of waiting.
>
> Am I right that the RFC (or Karn's algorithm) doesn't make a statement
> about this particular scenario ? In that case, should it be clarified ? Or
> is this such an obvious bad strategy that it's overkill to explicitly
> forbid it per RFC ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marc
>
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm
>
>

--001a11461c722b9f32055e4a9bab
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 6:59 AM, Marc <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:gaardiolor@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gaardiolor@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<br=
><br>I&#39;m reading RFC 6298, which mentions the TCP back-off algorithm. O=
ne detail is not very clear in this RFC, or maybe I&#39;m missing it. Hope =
someone can point me in the right direction!<div><br></div><div>In our netw=
ork we have a link that&#39;s sometimes congested. When that&#39;s the case=
, sometimes we have a TCP connection that just has a streak of bad luck and=
 loses multiple packets in a row. See attachment for an example, taken on a=
 switch connected to the server. Unfortunately I&#39;m not allowed to share=
 the PCAP.. But I think / hope the tcpdump information contains everything =
needed (time, ip, port, win, seq, len, ack, sack, sle, sre..)</div><div><br=
></div><div>Client: 1.1.1.1</div><div>Server: 2.2.2.2</div><div><br></div><=
div>So some packets from Server to Client are dropped. I&#39;ve marked the =
packets below in attachment with P1 until P7.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><di=
v><div>Packet 1: seq 135650, len 1348, dropped</div><div>Packet 2: seq 1369=
98, len 1348, received &lt;-- so this one is not dropped=C2=A0</div><div>Pa=
cket 3: seq 138346, len 1348, dropped=C2=A0</div><div>Packet 4: seq 139694,=
 len 81, dropped=C2=A0</div><div>Packet 5: seq 139775, len 1348, dropped=C2=
=A0</div><div>Packet 6: seq 141123, len 1348, dropped=C2=A0</div><div>Packe=
t 7: seq 142471, len 1221, dropped=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Then the =
retransmissions, marked in attachment with R1 until R5:</div><div>- Retrans=
mission 1: 0.5 sec after dropped &#39;Packet 1&#39;, packet with seq 135650=
, len 1348 is retransmitted.=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre=
-wrap">	</span>Ack &lt;10ms. Now the ack # is 138346, higher than seq135650=
 + len1348 =3D 136998, the client is also ack&#39;ing &#39;Packet 2&#39;.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>- Retransmission 2: 1.1 seconds after Retra=
nsmission 1, packet with seq 138346, len 1348 is retransmitted.=C2=A0</div>=
<div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Ack &lt;10ms, ack # 13969=
4 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 2). This Retransmission covers dropped=
 &#39;Packet 3&#39;</div></div></div></blockquote><div>The sender does not =
seem to implement TCP RFCs correctly. According to the RFC5681, upon the fi=
rst timeout the sender should reduce cwnd to 1 and enter slow start. Upon r=
eceiving the ACK of rtx of P2, cwnd would be 2 so the sender should have re=
transmitted P3 and P4 right away. The next round trip would retransmit P5,P=
6,P7. This is called slow start after timeout and it should take only 0.5s =
+ 10ms * 3.</div><div><br></div><div>Regarding the exponential backoff, RFC=
6298 section 5.2 (end) states that RTO is recomputed whenever a new RTT sam=
ple is acquired, hence clearing the backoff. But in your case there shouldn=
&#39;t be backoff at all. Normally we&#39;d see exponentially backoffs if t=
he first unacked packet after timeout is lost again (and again), which indi=
cates severe congestion.</div><div><br></div><div>HTH=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br></di=
v><div>- Retransmission 3: 2.8 seconds after Retransmission 2, packet with =
seq 139694, len 1348 is retransmitted.=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white=
-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Ack &lt;10ms, ack # 141042 (matches seq+len of Ret=
ransmission 3). Note that this packet contains data from dropped &#39;Packe=
t 4&#39; and &#39;Packet 5&#39;</div><div><br></div><div>- Retransmission 4=
: 7.1 seconds after Retransmission 3, packet with seq 141042, len 1348 is r=
etransmitted.=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>=
Ack &lt;10ms, ack # 142390 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 4). Note that=
 this packet contains data from dropped &#39;Packet 5&#39; and &#39;Packet =
6&#39;</div><div><br></div><div>- Retransmission 5: 17.8 seconds after Retr=
ansmission 4, packet with seq 142390, len 1302 is retransmitted.=C2=A0</div=
><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Ack &lt;10ms, ack # 1436=
92 (matches seq+len of Retransmission 5). Note that this packet contains da=
ta from dropped &#39;Packet 6&#39; and &#39;Packet 7&#39;</div></div><div><=
br></div><div>So the back-off is increased across _different_ retransmissio=
ns, despite the fact those retransmissions are ack&#39;ed very quickly. Now=
 I know there is a chance those acks are coming from the original tranmissi=
on so the server can&#39;t calculate a new RTT, but well.. I&#39;m not sure=
 if exponentially (~ x2.5 in my case actually..) increasing the timer acros=
s different ack&#39;ed retransmissions is the right strategy here. 10 lost =
packets (which isn&#39;t pretty, I know) in my case would mean 500 seconds =
of waiting.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Am I right that the RFC (or Karn=
&#39;s algorithm) doesn&#39;t make a statement about this particular scenar=
io ? In that case, should it be clarified ? Or is this such an obvious bad =
strategy that it&#39;s overkill to explicitly forbid it per RFC ?</div><div=
><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Marc</div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tcpm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tcpm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tcpm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/tcpm</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11461c722b9f32055e4a9bab--


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From: Marc <gaardiolor@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2017 12:34:33 +0100
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Thanks Yuchung & Richard, I think this will certainly be of help. Some more
RFC's for me to study! The misbehaving component is an SSL offloading
appliance. The vendor states they're using the BSD tcp implementation,
which could be true.. but perhaps a very dated version. Hope this info
helps them to improve.

Marc

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks=C2=A0Yuchung &amp; Richard, I think this will certa=
inly be of help. Some more RFC&#39;s for me to study! The misbehaving compo=
nent is an SSL offloading appliance. The vendor states they&#39;re using th=
e BSD tcp implementation, which could be true.. but perhaps a very dated ve=
rsion. Hope this info helps them to improve.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Marc<=
br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br></div></di=
v></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [tcpm] increased back-off across different retransmissions
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Marc,

One thing you could be trying though - I've seen in the past misbehavior =
(not quite like this, with the exponential backoff - just multiple =
rounds of timeout loss recovery for all trailing packets) similiar to =
this for SACK-enabled sessions when tail packets were dropped. Loss =
recovery then was significantly worse than with NewReno alone...

In that particular circumstance shown in your trace, disabling SACK and =
forcing the sender to regular NewReno behavior should improve latency. =
For bulk transfers, SACK is usually better though. With incomplete SACK =
recovery, NewReno can have benefits for the high-percentile transaction =
latency.

IIRC, that observation was exactly what ultimately led to having =
RescueRxmt in 6675.

Something you could try with changing only on the client side (and =
potentially on a per session basis).

Best regards,
  Richard


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Marc=20
  To: Yuchung Cheng=20
  Cc: tcpm@ietf.org Extensions=20
  Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 12:34 PM
  Subject: Re: [tcpm] increased back-off across different =
retransmissions


  Thanks Yuchung & Richard, I think this will certainly be of help. Some =
more RFC's for me to study! The misbehaving component is an SSL =
offloading appliance. The vendor states they're using the BSD tcp =
implementation, which could be true.. but perhaps a very dated version. =
Hope this info helps them to improve.=20


  Marc






       Virus-free. www.avg.com =20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----


  _______________________________________________
  tcpm mailing list
  tcpm@ietf.org
  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Marc,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>One thing you could be trying though - =
I've seen in=20
the past misbehavior (not quite like this, with the exponential backoff =
- just=20
multiple rounds of timeout loss recovery for all trailing packets) =
similiar to=20
this for SACK-enabled sessions when tail packets were dropped. Loss =
recovery=20
then was significantly worse than with NewReno alone...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>In that particular circumstance shown =
in your=20
trace, disabling SACK and forcing the sender&nbsp;to regular NewReno =
behavior=20
should improve latency. For bulk transfers, SACK is usually better =
though. With=20
incomplete SACK recovery, NewReno can have benefits for the =
high-percentile=20
transaction latency.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>IIRC, that observation was exactly what =
ultimately=20
led to having RescueRxmt in 6675.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Something you could try with changing =
only on the=20
client side (and potentially on a per session basis).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>&nbsp; Richard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dgaardiolor@gmail.com =
href=3D"mailto:gaardiolor@gmail.com">Marc</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dycheng@google.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:ycheng@google.com">Yuchung Cheng</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dtcpm@ietf.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:tcpm@ietf.org Extensions">tcpm@ietf.org Extensions</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 19, 2017 =
12:34=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [tcpm] increased =
back-off=20
  across different retransmissions</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr>Thanks&nbsp;Yuchung &amp; Richard, I think this will =
certainly be=20
  of help. Some more RFC's for me to study! The misbehaving component is =
an SSL=20
  offloading appliance. The vendor states they're using the BSD tcp=20
  implementation, which could be true.. but perhaps a very dated =
version. Hope=20
  this info helps them to improve.&nbsp;
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Marc<BR>
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_extra><BR>
  <DIV class=3Dgmail_quote><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
  <DIV id=3DDAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><BR>
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rce=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Demailclient"=20
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  <P>
  <HR>

  <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>tcpm mailing =

  =
list<BR>tcpm@ietf.org<BR>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm<BR></=
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Subject: [tcpm] Comments on ECN++ (rev 02)
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tcpm@ietf.org

I reviewed this draft prior to the IETF-100 meeting, but did not manage 
to send notes until just now. Thanks for this revison!

Overall, I had three observations and some comments on the writing iof 
the current ID.

* It seems like a silly question, but as I read this I do wonder: Do we 
**need** to allow ECT(1) on SYN as in 3.2.2.1?

* I think the AccECN studff requires a decision on how to present the 
info differently. This talks about recommending AccECN implementation, 
which implies a reader beds ti read both this and AccECN together. Both 
of these are long documents, and when you read these together one 
discovers many areas of overlap - but the pieces neded are in both drafts.

... One thing I suggest we consider is whether the ECN++ draft simply 
defines the method when AccECN is not supported. The AccECN draft 
appears to contain the machinery to allow ECT on SYN. One drawback is 
that the AccECN draft does not define mechanisms to react, but does 
define fallback. It could even be that the simplest is to write 3 drafts 
- having one just on AccECN+ECTonSYN?

... The considerations for reaction to CE-marked SYN and the 
implications of loss seem to be one area of experimentation, hence 
placing this in one place may help identify whether that experiment has 
suceeded. I'll type-up my notes on AccECN next.

Whatever, the two drafts are not consistent on the use of caching, and 
specifying the SYN processing once I think would help to simplify things.

If this is the direction, Table 1 could then be simplified, and one 
could add a column showing the section number where the topic is discussed?

* The section 4 is quite long. I'm not sure of who is the real target 
(or tragets) for section 4 and I think this therefore needs to be made 
clearer, so that people would know beforehand whether they should read 
the whole of this section.

Gorry

---

Some more specific comments on the text in the -02 draft:

(1) Style: The introduction sectionc contains a "RECOMMENDS: statement 
recommending AccECN. This comes before the IETF keyword declaration, and 
is not normal for an introduction. I suggest you avoid keywords in the 
intro.

(2) Final para of 1.1
- I really dislike the way this statemnent somehow reads as asserting 
the value of "ongoing experimental efforts to promote the adoption of a 
***slightly*** modified variant of DCTP". I suggest the should be 
English improved here, to avoid making the prior claim that this is 
"slight" (even if it may turn out to be so).  e.g., if the WG thinks the 
work should be based on DCTP, I'm sure the ID can say ths, but I'd 
really prefer we simply state the effort to build an IETF transport for L4S.

(3)Final para of 1.1: Is there really a problem with the SYN packet 
travelling via a different queue? The text suggests reordering is an 
issue, which I do not understand.  I'd have thought a SYN packet was the 
only packet in flight when the connection is being setup, what is the 
ordering wrt?

(4) I think in this case you could refer to the RFC: There is a phrase 
/When this specification/. This phrase always seems problematic in ID, 
with ambiguity to know whether it refers to the present document.

(5) TEXT: "MAY be adopted if found to be more effective".
- To me that seems like the document is almost defining working group 
process surrounding this. I don't think this document ought to do this. 
I suggest you delete the text, or at least don't use a RFC2119 keyword.

(6) TEXT: "MAY also implement AckCC".
-  Is this a /It is RECOMMENDED that AckCC is implemented/ - from text 
elsewhere this seems correct. I think some people prefer to say "is 
RECOMMNDED" when the text refers to an implemementation requirement, 
rather than protocol requirement.

(7) 3.2.3
- I do see the logic in not setting ECT unless there is feedback 
sup[ported to report CE.

(8) 3.2.4
- Please rephrase the first para in terms of citing the ECN-Experiments 
ID (in TSVWG) that enables this, rather than talking of the prohibition 
that has passed and the need to ignore - there is no need for this, 
since the TSVWG ID *WILL* be published before this.

(9) 3.2.6
- This recommends RFC5961. This seems an odd thing to suddently place an 
implementation requirement, if there are important requirements then I 
would hope these appear earlier in the document and are justified. I 
really encourage the WG to put all implementation requirements in a 
separate section, so implementors know what depends on what.

(10) Setion 4
- The section seems to call out a number of things that need to be done. 
Some of these may be neded before WGLC... but I don't know see which? 
Some are evidently targeting IETF experimentation, some are discussion 
of the background (could be an appendix?). At the moment this makes for 
quite a long read.

(11) Section 5.3, Para 1
The style of the SCTP discussion seems well-intentioned, but 
inappropriate, since it is based on a long-expired draft. (I strongly 
suggest we do not publish RFCs that discuss IDs that have not been 
progressed in WGs.) I suggest that more appropriate text could simply 
say "RFC4960 describes how ECN would be supported for SCTP, but at the 
time of writing there is no IETF Specification for this", or something 
similar.

Gorry






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Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2017 08:15:34 +0100
From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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Subject: [tcpm] Detailed review of  AccECN rev -04
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tcpm@ietf.org

I've read the -04 rev of teh above ID, and I have the following comments 
for the TCPM WG.

Overall,

* This document reads well, and seems mature.

* There are several references to other IETF activities, and the text 
concerning these appears to need to be revised before this is ready to 
proceed. See below.

* Since this document was adopted, work on ECN++ appears to have become 
inter-twined with this ID. I did not find this helpful, and made 
comments on ECN++ today that voiced this concern and requested we 
consider as a WG to best frame the proposed modification on the TCP SYN 
permitting ECT(?) to be set. See comment (6).

* I wonder if this document updates any other RFCs - I'd assume not -  
but it may if a future work proceeds along the standards track. I think 
it would be good to specifically identify in one section of the intro 
what these implications are.
For instance:
- The discussion of ECN on SYN is predecated by ECN-Experimentation 
(targeting publication as PS)
- The discussion of ECN on SYN has implications on ECN++, which 
recommends AccECN is implemented.
- A future standards-track document based on the AccECN experimental RFC 
could update RFC3168.
- etc.

* The document may intend a proposed change to RFC 5681 (4.2.  
Generating Acknowledgments). See comment (8).

Gorry

---

Some more specific comments on the text in the -04 AccECN draft:

(1) The introduction - "until the AccECN experiment suceeds, [RFC3168] 
will remain as the standards track specification for adding ECN to TCP."
- This seems odd. I think this is not the case:
Quite simply: "RFC3168 defines the current TCP feedback method."
- It may be you think a  future standards-track document based on the 
AccECN experimental RFC could update RFC3168, that is possible, but 
there is no need for an EXP to make that direct claim against as PS.

(2) Section 1.5. First para. (On loss v drop using ECN)
- I'd feel happier also noting that a router implementing AQM is still 
allowed to drop packets marked as ECT() when this is needed - and you 
could refer to the BCP to say so: /RFC/7567.

(3) Section 1.5. Last para.
- Please remove the discussion of Nonce from here!
- It is OK simply to refer to the PS specifying ECN Experimentation - or 
the process document to do this.
- If it is really necessary to discuss this, please use the form of 
words expressed in that draft, rather than saying "was never deployed".

(4) Section 3.1.1
"is being reclassified as historic."
- Again this text is now out-of-date, see comment (3).

(5) Section 3.1.1, ECN Nonce.
- This definition also contains text later that say "does not need...". 
It's not that it doesn't need, more that the IETF has changed the use of 
this field. I think it would be easy to simply remove this definition - 
but the WG wants to keep it please align the text precisely with the ECN 
Experimentation draft. The last para of section 4 repeats this and has 
the smae problem.

(6) Section 3.1.2. ECN on SYN
- This section seems to be a variant of the section expressed in the 
ECN++ draft (sect 4.2). That draft rather awkwardly refers back to thsi 
draft recommending AccECN is implemented - but the two specs differ.

I do encourage the WG to think about where the update on ECN for SYN is 
best described. There are specific issues for experimentation and for 
cahcing in ECN++ and other issues here. I'd like a cleaner spec so that 
**IF** there are results from the experiments we know how to then 
publish a PS and declare the experiment as historic. At the moment this 
seems awkard.

- Section 3.2.7.2 is also about the SYN negotiation. And similar to ECN++.

(7) Section 3.2.3 (First segment after SYN)
- TCP segments can be re-ordered, so saying the "first segment after 
SYN" should (I think) probably be the segment numbered after the SYN 
segment - noting that this is not necessarily the next segment received 
(in time order).

(8) Section 3.2.5
- The modified delayed ACK policy stated here is an experimental update 
to the IETF recommended procedure in a PS (RFC5681, 4.2.  Generating 
Acknowledgments). I think it is important that the change is referenced 
back to this RFC. The proposed change could have implications on the 
capacity used for the ACK stream - and this should be noted.

(9) RFC2119:  Section 3.2.7.1, para 1
- The ID says the client MUST NOT include the AccECN option on the SYN. 
What does a server do that receives such an option?

(10) RFC2119:   Section 3.2.7.1, para 2
- "A TCP server that confirms its support ... SHOULD also"
- I couldn't parse that sentence... Is that to imply there are valid 
reasons why the server could be implemented in a way that does not do 
this? (That doesn't seem to be explained).
- What is the meaning of "also" here. Does that mean the support is 
already confirmed in some other way? (I'm not sure also after SHOULD is 
a helpful construction of a clause).

(11) RFC2119: Section 3.2.7.1, para 3
- I think the sentence starting "A TCP Client" also contains two SHOULD 
clauses without saying what are the conditions for not doing this.  I 
think it is often wiser to start these sort of clauses by saying 
something like this order to avoid this:

... A host that receives an AccECN option SHOULD respond by returning 
the AccECN option in the first ACK at the end of the 3WHS. ... There are 
three cases when the host could decide not to ...

When the TCP client returns the ECN option, it SHOULD also include an 
AccECN option on the first data segment it sends... This is to ensure 
that...

(12) RFC2119: Please also avoid "MAY NOT" as a construct, since this can 
be mis-interpretted by different varients of English usage.

(13) Section 3.3 appears to make string normative requirements (MUST) on 
the operation of middleboxes. This may be the intention, but if so, I 
think it would be much wider to then make this evident in the section 
title and the document introduction.

(14) RFC2119: Section 3.3 appears to make mixed normative requirements 
(MUST attempt) on offload. I don't know what that means. I think this 
could be equivalent to "SHOULD" with an explanation of WHY this is so 
needed (which is sort of there).

(15) Section 3.3 on offload.
- If this is intended to change offload behaviour, I think it needs a 
separate section to say this, mentioned in the intro, otherewise people 
implementing offload will not see and read this.

(16) Section 4, Section 5, Appendix A, intro.
- You could remove (not normative) to be even clearer.

(17) For the avoidance of doubt it may be wise to state the standards 
status of the TCP AO and Conex work... e.g., "TCP AO is a 
standards-track method to ..."

Best wishes,

Gorry


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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
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Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-bagnulo-tcpm-esn
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Subject: [tcpm] Comments on draft-bagnulo-tcpm-esn
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Hi,

after my half-baked idea during the Singapore session (i.e., WS option =
15 means "multiply by 64 or other large value), here's another one, even =
less baked:

Make WS option 15 mean "no flow control".

If you're doing >100G/s for a single flow, you're very unlikely to still =
rely on flow control to protect you from being overrun. Your problem is =
likely the exact opposite, i.e., making sure that there are no local =
bottlenecks that would prevent you from reaching that level of =
throughput. Plus, the number of slots in your NIC ring is probably =
already enforcing some sort of FC on you...

Lars

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From: marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Comments on draft-bagnulo-tcpm-esn
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Hi,

Reply below...

El 21/11/17 a las 16:23, Eggert, Lars escribi:
> Hi,
>
> after my half-baked idea during the Singapore session (i.e., WS option 15 means "multiply by 64 or other large value), here's another one, even less baked:

I understand what you are saying here is that the units to which a 
sequence number is assigned is no longer a byte, but a multiple of n 
bytes, e.g. 64 bytes.

I guess a first issue here is what happens if the amount of data that 
the sender wants to send in a segment is not multiple of 64 bytes (and 
it is not the last segment in the connection)?

The problem is which seq number you put to the next segment, since the 
first byte of data in the next segment was part of the previous segment 
64-byte word. Moreover, what happens if you want to send n packets of 
one single byte?

Regards, marcelo
> Make WS option 15 mean "no flow control".



> If you're doing >100G/s for a single flow, you're very unlikely to still rely on flow control to protect you from being overrun. Your problem is likely the exact opposite, i.e., making sure that there are no local bottlenecks that would prevent you from reaching that level of throughput. Plus, the number of slots in your NIC ring is probably already enforcing some sort of FC on you...
>
> Lars
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tcpm mailing list
> tcpm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tcpm



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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: Marcelo Bagnulo <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
CC: "tcpm@ietf.org" <tcpm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [tcpm] Comments on draft-bagnulo-tcpm-esn
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Comments on draft-bagnulo-tcpm-esn
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Hi,

On 2017-11-21, at 17:56, marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es> =
wrote:
> El 21/11/17 a las 16:23, Eggert, Lars escribi=C3=B3:
>> after my half-baked idea during the Singapore session (i.e., WS =
option 15 means "multiply by 64 or other large value), here's another =
one, even less baked:
>=20
> I understand what you are saying here is that the units to which a =
sequence number is assigned is no longer a byte, but a multiple of n =
bytes, e.g. 64 bytes.
>=20
> I guess a first issue here is what happens if the amount of data that =
the sender wants to send in a segment is not multiple of 64 bytes (and =
it is not the last segment in the connection)?
>=20
> The problem is which seq number you put to the next segment, since the =
first byte of data in the next segment was part of the previous segment =
64-byte word. Moreover, what happens if you want to send n packets of =
one single byte?

I said "half-baked" for a reason :-)

I'd observe that if you intent to go 100G on a single flow, you are =
unlikely to be successful if you are sending packets with less than 64B =
of data.

There are ugly ways to handle such corner cases, such as padding to 64B =
with dummy data and adding a new TCP option to remove that data from the =
byte stream delivered to applications.

>> Make WS option 15 mean "no flow control".
>=20
>> If you're doing >100G/s for a single flow, you're very unlikely to =
still rely on flow control to protect you from being overrun. Your =
problem is likely the exact opposite, i.e., making sure that there are =
no local bottlenecks that would prevent you from reaching that level of =
throughput. Plus, the number of slots in your NIC ring is probably =
already enforcing some sort of FC on you...

Lars

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https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/100/materials/minutes-100-tcpm/

Please feel free to let us know any mistakes or omissions.

Many thanks to Gorry as note taker

Michael

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Michael<o:p></o:p></p>
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To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
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Subject: Re: [tcpm] Comments on draft-bagnulo-tcpm-esn
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On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 12:07 AM, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 2017-11-21, at 17:56, marcelo bagnulo braun <marcelo@it.uc3m.es> wrote=
:
> > El 21/11/17 a las 16:23, Eggert, Lars escribi=C3=B3:
> >> after my half-baked idea during the Singapore session (i.e., WS option
> 15 means "multiply by 64 or other large value), here's another one, even
> less baked:
> >
> > I understand what you are saying here is that the units to which a
> sequence number is assigned is no longer a byte, but a multiple of n byte=
s,
> e.g. 64 bytes.
> >
> > I guess a first issue here is what happens if the amount of data that
> the sender wants to send in a segment is not multiple of 64 bytes (and it
> is not the last segment in the connection)?
> >
> > The problem is which seq number you put to the next segment, since the
> first byte of data in the next segment was part of the previous segment
> 64-byte word. Moreover, what happens if you want to send n packets of one
> single byte?
>
> I said "half-baked" for a reason :-)
>
> I'd observe that if you intent to go 100G on a single flow, you are
> unlikely to be successful if you are sending packets with less than 64B o=
f
> data.
>
> There are ugly ways to handle such corner cases, such as padding to 64B
> with dummy data and adding a new TCP option to remove that data from the
> byte stream delivered to applications.
>
>
I would like to think about it a bit more, but this approach will
definitely require to investigate middlebox interventions as it looks
inconsistent retransmissions from them.
Some proxies that try to cache the segments might be confused by it.

BTW, I'm not sure how we do "no flow control".. Do we still use sliding
window?
--
Yoshi

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 12:07 AM, Eggert, Lars <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com" target=3D"_blank">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
<span><br>
On 2017-11-21, at 17:56, marcelo bagnulo braun &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marcel=
o@it.uc3m.es" target=3D"_blank">marcelo@it.uc3m.es</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; El 21/11/17 a las 16:23, Eggert, Lars escribi=C3=B3:<br>
</span><span>&gt;&gt; after my half-baked idea during the Singapore session=
 (i.e., WS option 15 means &quot;multiply by 64 or other large value), here=
&#39;s another one, even less baked:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I understand what you are saying here is that the units to which a seq=
uence number is assigned is no longer a byte, but a multiple of n bytes, e.=
g. 64 bytes.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I guess a first issue here is what happens if the amount of data that =
the sender wants to send in a segment is not multiple of 64 bytes (and it i=
s not the last segment in the connection)?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The problem is which seq number you put to the next segment, since the=
 first byte of data in the next segment was part of the previous segment 64=
-byte word. Moreover, what happens if you want to send n packets of one sin=
gle byte?<br>
<br>
</span>I said &quot;half-baked&quot; for a reason :-)<br>
<br>
I&#39;d observe that if you intent to go 100G on a single flow, you are unl=
ikely to be successful if you are sending packets with less than 64B of dat=
a.<br>
<br>
There are ugly ways to handle such corner cases, such as padding to 64B wit=
h dummy data and adding a new TCP option to remove that data from the byte =
stream delivered to applications.<br>
<div class=3D"m_-2727249271386454884HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-27272492713864=
54884h5"><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would like to t=
hink about it a bit more, but this approach will definitely require to inve=
stigate middlebox interventions as it looks inconsistent retransmissions fr=
om them.</div><div>Some proxies that try to cache the segments might be con=
fused by it.</div><div><br></div><div>BTW, I&#39;m not sure how we do &quot=
;no flow control&quot;.. Do we still use sliding window?</div><div>--</div>=
<div>Yoshi</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div>

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