From ternli-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 12 05:07:34 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FpiOU-0006c2-AN; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 05:07:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FpiOT-0006bw-HC for ternli@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 05:07:33 -0400 Received: from stsc1260-eth-s1-s1p1-vip.va.neustar.com ([156.154.16.129] helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FphAo-0000JZ-Mi for ternli@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:49:22 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fph8J-0002B2-QJ for ternli@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 03:46:50 -0400 Received: from lars.local (unknown [192.100.124.156]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C3F1BAC4D for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:36:01 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lars.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC64D10CDFE for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:46:43 +0300 (EEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) To: ternli@ietf.org Message-Id: <69DACCFC-405E-44D1-8C61-6342DEB943AB@netlab.nec.de> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-8--7489107; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" From: Lars Eggert Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:46:42 +0300 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 03fb21b15d5177c512a4caa19876f30a Subject: [TERNLI] updated BOF description X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org --Apple-Mail-8--7489107 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi, compared to the announcement I sent a few minutes ago, this version of the agenda adds a new ID to the reading list. Lars Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface (TERNLI) (pronounce: "turn-ly") BOF Chairs: Sponsoring Area Directors: Lars Eggert Magnus Westerlund Jari Arkko Mailing List: General Discussion: ternli@ietf.org To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ternli Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ternli/index.html BACKGROUND The communication abstraction provided by IP at the network layer delivers packets in an unordered, unreliable manner and does not protect against duplication. The users of this abstraction, i.e., the transport protocols, have made additional assumptions about this abstraction. Many of these assumptions are critical to the effective operation of important transport mechanisms, such as congestion control, flow control or reliability. These assumptions include, for example, that hosts remain at network locations identified by an IP address on timescales that are orders of magnitude larger than the duration of a communication instance. Another such assumption is that packets flowing from a source to a destination mostly follow the same path and that changes to that path occur on timescales that are several orders of magnitude larger than the RTT between the two hosts. Similarly, transport mechanisms have assumed that the characteristics of such paths, such as bandwidth, delay, reordering and loss probabilities, also change on timescales much larger than the RTT. In the current Internet, many of these assumptions are no longer generally true, because it has become much more dynamic in recent years. Mobile hosts and whole subnetworks have started to move between network locations on relatively short timescales. A growing number of hosts is multi-homed, connected through multiple links with possibly very different properties at the same time. The Internet has incorporated new link technologies with characteristics that are much more dynamic than in the past, due to functionality such as link- layer retransmissions, adaptive coding or support for link-local mobility. Several extensions to the internal functionality of the network layer, such as Mobile IP, NEMO, HIP or SHIM6, support communication in such dynamic environments. These extensions maintain the traditional interface between network and transport layers, isolating the transports from some of the dynamic effects present at and below the network layer, similar to how transports remain unaware of routing changes or packet fragmentation. They consequently allow existing transport protocols to continue to operate without modifications. This isolation, however, comes at a cost, because the traditional communication abstraction maintained by these new network-layer extensions hides information that transport-layer protocols should act on. Many common transport mechanisms, such as congestion window estimation, RTT measurements or path MTU discovery, are not agile enough to properly handle the significant instantaneous changes to path characteristics that these network-layer extensions introduce. This can, in turn, decrease the effectiveness of important transport mechanisms, such as congestion control. Consequently, although existing transports can operate on top of these network-layer extensions to some degree, their performance and efficiency decreases. SCOPE This BOF brings together the INT and TSV communities to discuss how this inter-area problem space can be successfully approached within the IETF and IRTF. Consequently, detailed presentations of specific technical proposals are out-of-scope for this BOF. The BOF will also *not* lead to the formation of a working group. The goal is to give interested parties a venue for discussing how this problem space might be sliced. The simple, general purpose interface between the network and transport layers is one of the key features that has guaranteed the evolvability of the Internet architecture, because it maintains the independence of transport layers from functionality located below it, and vice versa. Approaches for extending this core component must therefore be broadly applicable and be of general usefulness. Point solutions that optimize for specific deployment scenarios or technologies are thus not relevant to this discussion. DISCUSSION MATERIAL A possible approach might be to identify a generic, technology- independent set of well-defined network- and lower-layer information that has the potential to improve performance and operation of a large number of different transport mechanisms and protocols and can be provided in different ways by different specific underlying mechanisms and technologies. This information must be optional, i.e., it might improve transport operation if present, but transports must not depend on its presence. One existing example of an extension that follows this general approach is Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN). The ECN signal is well-defined and can be provided in different ways by network-layer mechanisms; transport protocols act on the signal independently of where and how it was generated. Another example of such an extension in this spirit is Quick-Start, were routers in the network explicitly signal source hosts the available capacity along the path to their destinations. Transport protocols can utilize this generic, technology-independent, network-layer information in different ways to improve operation and performance. One approach forward may be to integrate these existing or proposed mechanisms with additional, similar extensions that result in a uniform extension to the current network-layer interface. The BOF organizers are interested in soliciting additional approaches that attempt to address this problem space. FURTHER READING Lars Eggert and Wesley Eddy. Towards More Expressive Transport-Layer Interfaces. Under Submission, June 2006. http://larseggert.de/papers/2006-ccr-transport-interfaces.pdf B. Aboba (ed.) Architectural Implications of Link Indications. Internet Draft draft-iab-link-indications-04, Work in Progress, December 2005. http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcmarkup/rfcmarkup.cgi?draft=draft-iab- link-indications-04.txt K. Ramakrishnan, S. Floyd and D. Black. The Addition of Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN) to IP. RFC 3168, September 2001. http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcmarkup/rfcmarkup.cgi?rfc=3168 A. Jain, S. Floyd, M. Allman and P. Sarolahti. Quick-Start for TCP and IP. Internet Draft draft-ietf-tsvwg-quickstart-03, Work in Progress, April 2006. http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcmarkup/rfcmarkup.cgi?draft=draft-ietf- tsvwg-quickstart-03 S. Schuetz, L. Eggert, W. Eddy, Y. Swami and K. Le. TCP Response to Lower-Layer Connectivity-Change Indications. Internet Draft draft- schuetz-tcpm-tcp-rlci-00, Work in Progress, May 2006. http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcmarkup/rfcmarkup.cgi?rfc=&draft=draft- schuetz-tcpm-tcp-rlci-00 J. Korhonen, S. Park, J. Zhang, C. Hwang and P. Sarolahti. Link Characteristic Information for IP Mobility Problem Statement. Internet Draft draft-korhonen-mobopts-link-characteristics-ps-01, Work in Progress, June 2006. http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcmarkup/rfcmarkup.cgi?draft=draft- korhonen-mobopts-link-characteristics-ps-01 -- Lars Eggert NEC Network Laboratories --Apple-Mail-8--7489107 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKgzCCAyAw ggKJoAMCAQICAw9TWTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDUwODE4MTAyOTU2WhcNMDYwODE4MTAyOTU2WjBgMQ8wDQYDVQQE EwZFZ2dlcnQxDTALBgNVBCoTBExhcnMxFDASBgNVBAMTC0xhcnMgRWdnZXJ0MSgwJgYJKoZIhvcN AQkBFhlsYXJzLmVnZ2VydEBuZXRsYWIubmVjLmRlMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIB CgKCAQEA2gsuG8tAmM6U2ESsQjhcijJSq6oDG2c+KvvXJ/xcJXbSIOY8IInezIP0DP41H0gxwHNv 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10:17:28 -0400 Received: from lars.local (unknown [192.100.124.156]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E86D1BAC4D; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:06:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lars.local (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA48110DD38; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:17:22 +0300 (EEST) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-35-15949864; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: From: Lars Eggert Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:17:21 +0300 To: Bernard Aboba X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 Cc: ternli@ietf.org Subject: [TERNLI] Re: [Int-area] BOF: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface (TERNLI) X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org --Apple-Mail-35-15949864 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed (Redirecting the reply to the TERNLI list.) On Jun 12, 2006, at 15:25, Bernard Aboba wrote: >> This isolation, however, comes at a cost, because the traditional >> communication abstraction maintained by these new network-layer >> extensions >> hides information that transport-layer protocols should act on. > > The information is hidden only for the purposes of connection > management, > not for parameter estimation. What we tried to express by "isolation" is that one doesn't really want to implement optimizations that are MIP-, HIP-, SHIM6- or MULTI6- specific into each of the transport protocols, even if one could. (And we'd like to standardize such extensions even less.) A better approach could be to define an extension to the interface between network and transport that is independent of a specific network-layer technology, and extend transport protocols to act on the generic extension. >> Many common >> transport mechanisms, such as congestion window estimation, RTT >> measurements >> or path MTU discovery, are not agile enough to properly handle the >> significant >> instantaneous changes to path characteristics that these network- >> layer >> extensions introduce. > > I might say that "Many current transport algorithms for...", so > that it > is not implied that there are no algorithms that would work. Good point, will change this. Thanks! Lars -- Lars Eggert NEC Network Laboratories --Apple-Mail-35-15949864 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKgzCCAyAw ggKJoAMCAQICAw9TWTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDUwODE4MTAyOTU2WhcNMDYwODE4MTAyOTU2WjBgMQ8wDQYDVQQE EwZFZ2dlcnQxDTALBgNVBCoTBExhcnMxFDASBgNVBAMTC0xhcnMgRWdnZXJ0MSgwJgYJKoZIhvcN AQkBFhlsYXJzLmVnZ2VydEBuZXRsYWIubmVjLmRlMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIB CgKCAQEA2gsuG8tAmM6U2ESsQjhcijJSq6oDG2c+KvvXJ/xcJXbSIOY8IInezIP0DP41H0gxwHNv AyOuwM6nh0r2wOhzdr77GlKXiij0LoFOpurScPKsC9KTykGAfZtAuCnWIRdDo67Urcw1e306yYgK xF1UzYwGamLalPjejQTRcjLPIbzM4c7fUN/sxmpkpzT2p6OCJDyPhBfSaZWtv3UEoKF+xssNYzOF DRCTHcLc3iXgF7z7J0ud8maUAadfb/25Gm7tJHzBOEonMPkHx2N8Ci0qNce0MMH/LVOVQlNO5kYJ 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D974B4F5E5; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 05:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by internaut.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCB5E4F5E4; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 05:25:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Mail-Handler: MailHop Outbound by DynDNS X-Originating-IP: 24.16.73.85 X-Report-Abuse-To: abuse@dyndns.com (see http://www.mailhop.org/outbound/abuse.html for abuse reporting information) X-MHO-User: aboba Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 05:25:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Bernard Aboba To: ternli@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:10:23 -0400 Cc: mobopts@irtf.org, int-area@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org Subject: [TERNLI] Re: [Int-area] BOF: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface (TERNLI) X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org > This isolation, however, comes at a cost, because the traditional > communication abstraction maintained by these new network-layer extensions > hides information that transport-layer protocols should act on. The information is hidden only for the purposes of connection management, not for parameter estimation. > Many common > transport mechanisms, such as congestion window estimation, RTT measurements > or path MTU discovery, are not agile enough to properly handle the significant > instantaneous changes to path characteristics that these network-layer > extensions introduce. I might say that "Many current transport algorithms for...", so that it is not implied that there are no algorithms that would work. From ternli-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 13 08:10:24 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fq7iy-00036S-Mr; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:10:24 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fpqky-0005Lx-Q9; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:03:20 -0400 Received: from mgw-ext13.nokia.com ([131.228.20.172]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Fpqkx-00027C-CM; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:03:20 -0400 Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-ext13.nokia.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5CI3FvX023490; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:03:17 +0300 Received: from esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.28]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:03:17 +0300 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([172.18.141.68]) by esebh001.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6881); Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:03:16 +0300 Message-ID: <448DAC60.5030002@iprg.nokia.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:03:12 -0700 From: Rajeev Koodli User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ternli@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2006 18:03:16.0833 (UTC) FILETIME=[7AF66510:01C68E4A] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 08:10:23 -0400 Cc: int-area@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, mobopts@irtf.org Subject: [TERNLI] Re: [Mobopts] BOF: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface (TERNLI) X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org Hi Lars, thanks for the pointer. We are discussing a specific mobility-related problem: when to change an IP address which we can discuss at the BOF (and at MobOpts meeting). Thanks, -Rajeev From ternli-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 13 12:04:05 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqBN6-000659-Q9; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:04:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqBN5-000654-Oq for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:04:03 -0400 Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqBN4-0002O0-Eo for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:04:03 -0400 Received: from [128.9.168.63] (bet.isi.edu [128.9.168.63]) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id k5DG39624213; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <448EE1B6.1080100@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:03:02 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ternli@ietf.org X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig8FBD9126A61CCAC1491D4AF1" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Subject: [TERNLI] question about layer focus X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig8FBD9126A61CCAC1491D4AF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, all, I noticed that the BOF title and description focuses on transport interactions with network layer indications. However, some of the background reading suggests link-transport interaction. IMO, this has been the previous issue with some previous attempts near this solution space; is this difference being addressed in this BOF, or is the BOF setting a boundary (i.e., only transport-net and net-link are allowed, but not transport-link?) Joe --------------enig8FBD9126A61CCAC1491D4AF1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEjuG2E5f5cImnZrsRAoInAKDeE41Ooh5iPebtFahrZ5ai6amKTgCg6ztf Cu9Kwe76jsa7IUMRVP/k70E= =sYMb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig8FBD9126A61CCAC1491D4AF1-- From ternli-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 13 12:37:19 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqBtH-0005BJ-21; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqBtG-0005B9-9r for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:18 -0400 Received: from mx2.grc.nasa.gov ([128.156.11.69]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqBtD-0003qy-Vz for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:18 -0400 Received: from lombok-fi.grc.nasa.gov (seraph1.grc.nasa.gov [128.156.10.10]) by mx2.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AECC262 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apataki.grc.nasa.gov (apataki.grc.nasa.gov [139.88.112.35]) by lombok-fi.grc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC TCPD 8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5DGbEl3001490; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by apataki.grc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC TCPD 8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5DGbEiK017484; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apataki.grc.nasa.gov ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (apataki.grc.nasa.gov [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 12364-29; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from drpepper.grc.nasa.gov (gr2134391.grc.nasa.gov [139.88.44.123]) by apataki.grc.nasa.gov (NASA GRC TCPD 8.13.6/8.13.1) with ESMTP id k5DGbCcV017461; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by drpepper.grc.nasa.gov (Postfix, from userid 501) id E31324FCA9; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:36:33 -0400 From: Wesley Eddy To: Joe Touch Subject: Re: [TERNLI] question about layer focus Message-ID: <20060613163633.GB13127@grc.nasa.gov> References: <448EE1B6.1080100@isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+QahgC5+KEYLbs62" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <448EE1B6.1080100@isi.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.5.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Cc: ternli@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: weddy@grc.nasa.gov List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org --+QahgC5+KEYLbs62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 09:03:02AM -0700, Joe Touch wrote: > Hi, all, >=20 > I noticed that the BOF title and description focuses on transport > interactions with network layer indications. >=20 > However, some of the background reading suggests link-transport > interaction. IMO, this has been the previous issue with some previous > attempts near this solution space; is this difference being addressed in > this BOF, or is the BOF setting a boundary (i.e., only transport-net and > net-link are allowed, but not transport-link?) >=20 I think one idea that some people share is that while transport-link has been used pretty frequently, implementing these hacks doesn't scale as the number of link technologies with subtle differences grows, and so it is architecturally vital to transition to a transport-net model where link-independent signals are passed. --=20 Wesley M. Eddy Verizon Federal Network Systems --+QahgC5+KEYLbs62 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEjumRzBuYqbnj3IwRAvzCAJ96dwoB7CQcXH5OQyswEGOGrzYTowCfZ0ZB Y/RABCTCL/DIEnFAMA5QtI0= =DGtY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+QahgC5+KEYLbs62-- From ternli-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 13 13:08:13 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqCNB-0002fC-No; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:08:13 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqCNB-0002f7-8w for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:08:13 -0400 Received: from vapor.isi.edu ([128.9.64.64]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqCN9-0006UM-U2 for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:08:13 -0400 Received: from [128.9.168.63] (bet.isi.edu [128.9.168.63]) by vapor.isi.edu (8.11.6p2+0917/8.11.2) with ESMTP id k5DH7c612003; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <448EF0D4.6090404@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:07:32 -0700 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weddy@grc.nasa.gov Subject: Re: [TERNLI] question about layer focus References: <448EE1B6.1080100@isi.edu> <20060613163633.GB13127@grc.nasa.gov> In-Reply-To: <20060613163633.GB13127@grc.nasa.gov> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.94.0.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigFFB3DFAFB6EA68D05D16C071" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Cc: ternli@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigFFB3DFAFB6EA68D05D16C071 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wesley Eddy wrote: > On Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 09:03:02AM -0700, Joe Touch wrote: >> Hi, all, >> >> I noticed that the BOF title and description focuses on transport >> interactions with network layer indications. >> >> However, some of the background reading suggests link-transport >> interaction. IMO, this has been the previous issue with some previous >> attempts near this solution space; is this difference being addressed = in >> this BOF, or is the BOF setting a boundary (i.e., only transport-net a= nd >> net-link are allowed, but not transport-link?) >> >=20 > I think one idea that some people share is that while transport-link ha= s > been used pretty frequently, implementing these hacks doesn't scale as > the number of link technologies with subtle differences grows, and so i= t > is architecturally vital to transition to a transport-net model where > link-independent signals are passed. It's more than that, IMO. Any property that is of a link, rather than of a path, is inappropriate to expose to the transport layer. There are current exceptions that are based on 'best guess', i.e., starting PMTU at the MTU of the first link hop as a starting point; that's fine, as would any other similar starting guess. However, I think of that as a guess that could as easily have been passed through the layers (i.e., the network layer indicates that all paths originating from this IP address start with the MTU of its link, passing that then from the net to the transport). Joe --------------enigFFB3DFAFB6EA68D05D16C071 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEjvDUE5f5cImnZrsRAteMAKDnAuo+ByXBa3yIfpK8PQW6EgsxOwCgxJgK MgYP6+gYq/8ZnlpWbsqEE/Y= =Z0hq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigFFB3DFAFB6EA68D05D16C071-- From ternli-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 13 17:34:58 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqGXK-0005sM-Gi; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:34:58 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqGXJ-0005rX-Fo for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:34:57 -0400 Received: from kyoto.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FqGXH-0001vL-VW for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 17:34:57 -0400 Received: from pc-a81120.wlan.inet.fi (pc-a81120.wlan.inet.fi [194.111.81.120]) by kyoto.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58E81BAC4D; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 23:23:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc-a81120.wlan.inet.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id C88DB10EFF9; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 00:34:40 +0300 (EEST) In-Reply-To: <448EE1B6.1080100@isi.edu> References: <448EE1B6.1080100@isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-39-128586527; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Message-Id: From: Lars Eggert Subject: Re: [TERNLI] question about layer focus Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 00:34:37 +0300 To: Joe Touch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 Cc: ternli@ietf.org X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org --Apple-Mail-39-128586527 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On Jun 13, 2006, at 19:03, Joe Touch wrote: > However, some of the background reading suggests link-transport > interaction. IMO, this has been the previous issue with some previous > attempts near this solution space; is this difference being > addressed in > this BOF, or is the BOF setting a boundary (i.e., only transport- > net and > net-link are allowed, but not transport-link?) The reading list contains both high-level background material as well as documents on specific proposals that various groups have brought forth. I'll try to structure the reading list by topic in the next update of the BOF proposal. > Any property that is of a link, rather than of > a path, is inappropriate to expose to the transport layer. There are > current exceptions that are based on 'best guess', i.e., starting PMTU > at the MTU of the first link hop as a starting point; that's fine, as > would any other similar starting guess. However, I think of that as a > guess that could as easily have been passed through the layers (i.e., > the network layer indicates that all paths originating from this IP > address start with the MTU of its link, passing that then from the net > to the transport). I agree with you on this. There will likely be a presentation on the approach to the problem space that this document is related to during the BOF, hence I listed this as part of the reading list. Lars -- Lars Eggert NEC Network Laboratories --Apple-Mail-39-128586527 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKgzCCAyAw ggKJoAMCAQICAw9TWTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDUwODE4MTAyOTU2WhcNMDYwODE4MTAyOTU2WjBgMQ8wDQYDVQQE EwZFZ2dlcnQxDTALBgNVBCoTBExhcnMxFDASBgNVBAMTC0xhcnMgRWdnZXJ0MSgwJgYJKoZIhvcN AQkBFhlsYXJzLmVnZ2VydEBuZXRsYWIubmVjLmRlMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIB CgKCAQEA2gsuG8tAmM6U2ESsQjhcijJSq6oDG2c+KvvXJ/xcJXbSIOY8IInezIP0DP41H0gxwHNv AyOuwM6nh0r2wOhzdr77GlKXiij0LoFOpurScPKsC9KTykGAfZtAuCnWIRdDo67Urcw1e306yYgK xF1UzYwGamLalPjejQTRcjLPIbzM4c7fUN/sxmpkpzT2p6OCJDyPhBfSaZWtv3UEoKF+xssNYzOF DRCTHcLc3iXgF7z7J0ud8maUAadfb/25Gm7tJHzBOEonMPkHx2N8Ci0qNce0MMH/LVOVQlNO5kYJ 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To: ternli@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <0DF5D6CA-D2CC-40A5-9950-DB32BFEFECC3@netlab.nec.de> References: <0DF5D6CA-D2CC-40A5-9950-DB32BFEFECC3@netlab.nec.de> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: University of Innsbruck Message-Id: <1150299739.4774.170.camel@lap10-c703.uibk.ac.at> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.2.2 (1.2.2-4) Date: 14 Jun 2006 17:42:19 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.4 () ALL_TRUSTED,RCV_SMTP_UIBK X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.52 at uibk.ac.at on 138.232.1.140 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2bf730a014b318fd3efd65b39b48818c X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 08:17:19 -0400 Cc: iccrg Subject: [TERNLI] Re: [Iccrg] ICCRG-related BOF in Montreal: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface (TERNLI) X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I also think that discussing this together with ICCRG'ers is a good idea (and another reason for them to get moving a bit :-) ). As for a presentation, I can't make it to Montreal - Keshav, can you? Cheers, Michael On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 09:07, Lars Eggert wrote: > Hi, > > please note that the TSV and INT areas are sponsoring the following > non-WG-forming BOF in Montreal. We'd welcome any input that ICCRG may > have on the scope or content of this BOF. We'd also be interested in > maybe seeing a short presentation from the congestion control > research community during the BOF. > > Thanks, > Lars > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface (TERNLI) > (pronounce: "turn-ly") > > BOF Chairs: > > > Sponsoring Area Directors: > Lars Eggert > Magnus Westerlund > Jari Arkko > > Mailing List: > General Discussion: ternli@ietf.org > To Subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ternli > Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ternli/index.html > > > BACKGROUND > > The communication abstraction provided by IP at the network layer > delivers packets in an unordered, unreliable manner and does not > protect against duplication. The users of this abstraction, i.e., the > transport protocols, have made additional assumptions about this > abstraction. Many of these assumptions are critical to the effective > operation of important transport mechanisms, such as congestion > control, flow control or reliability. These assumptions include, for > example, that hosts remain at network locations identified by an IP > address on timescales that are orders of magnitude larger than the > duration of a communication instance. Another such assumption is that > packets flowing from a source to a destination mostly follow the same > path and that changes to that path occur on timescales that are > several orders of magnitude larger than the RTT between the two > hosts. Similarly, transport mechanisms have assumed that the > characteristics of such paths, such as bandwidth, delay, reordering > and loss probabilities, also change on timescales much larger than > the RTT. > > In the current Internet, many of these assumptions are no longer > generally true, because it has become much more dynamic in recent > years. Mobile hosts and whole subnetworks have started to move > between network locations on relatively short timescales. A growing > number of hosts is multi-homed, connected through multiple links with > possibly very different properties at the same time. The Internet has > incorporated new link technologies with characteristics that are much > more dynamic than in the past, due to functionality such as link- > layer retransmissions, adaptive coding or support for link-local > mobility. > > Several extensions to the internal functionality of the network > layer, such as Mobile IP, NEMO, HIP or SHIM6, support communication > in such dynamic environments. These extensions maintain the > traditional interface between network and transport layers, isolating > the transports from some of the dynamic effects present at and below > the network layer, similar to how transports remain unaware of > routing changes or packet fragmentation. They consequently allow > existing transport protocols to continue to operate without > modifications. > > This isolation, however, comes at a cost, because the traditional > communication abstraction maintained by these new network-layer > extensions hides information that transport-layer protocols should > act on. Many common transport mechanisms for congestion window > estimation, RTT measurements or path MTU discovery are not agile > enough to properly handle the significant instantaneous changes to > path characteristics that these network-layer extensions introduce. > This can, in turn, decrease the effectiveness of important transport > mechanisms, such as congestion control. Consequently, although > existing transports can operate on top of these network-layer > extensions to some degree, their performance and efficiency decreases. > > > SCOPE > > This BOF brings together the INT and TSV communities to discuss how > this inter-area problem space can be successfully approached within > the IETF and IRTF. Consequently, detailed presentations of specific > technical proposals are out-of-scope for this BOF. The BOF will also > *not* lead to the formation of a working group. The goal is to give > interested parties a venue for discussing how this problem space > might be sliced. > > The simple, general purpose interface between the network and > transport layers is one of the key features that has guaranteed the > evolvability of the Internet architecture, because it maintains the > independence of transport layers from functionality located below it, > and vice versa. Approaches for extending this core component must > therefore be broadly applicable and be of general usefulness. Point > solutions that optimize for specific deployment scenarios or > technologies are thus not relevant to this discussion. > > > DISCUSSION MATERIAL > > A possible approach might be to identify a generic, technology- > independent set of well-defined network- and lower-layer information > that has the potential to improve performance and operation of a > large number of different transport mechanisms and protocols and can > be provided in different ways by different specific underlying > mechanisms and technologies. This information must be optional, i.e., > it might improve transport operation if present, but transports must > not depend on its presence. > > One existing example of an extension that follows this general > approach is Explicit Congestion Notification (ECN). The ECN signal is > well-defined and can be provided in different ways by network-layer > mechanisms; transport protocols act on the signal independently of > where and how it was generated. Another example of such an extension > in this spirit is Quick-Start, were routers in the network explicitly > signal source hosts the available capacity along the path to their > destinations. Transport protocols can utilize this generic, > technology-independent, network-layer information in different ways > to improve operation and performance. > > One approach forward may be to integrate these existing or proposed > mechanisms with additional, similar extensions that result in a > uniform extension to the current network-layer interface. > > The BOF organizers are interested in soliciting additional approaches > that attempt to address this problem space. > > > FURTHER READING > > L. Eggert and W. Eddy. Towards More Expressive Transport-Layer > Interfaces. Under Submission, June 2006. > http://larseggert.de/papers/2006-ccr-transport-interfaces.pdf > > B. Aboba (ed.) Architectural Implications of Link Indications. > Internet Draft draft-iab-link-indications-04, Work in Progress, > December 2005. > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-link-indications-04 > > K. Ramakrishnan, S. Floyd and D. Black. The Addition of Explicit > Congestion Notification (ECN) to IP. RFC 3168, September 2001. > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3168 > > A. Jain, S. Floyd, M. Allman and P. Sarolahti. Quick-Start for TCP > and IP. Internet Draft draft-ietf-tsvwg-quickstart-03, Work in > Progress, April 2006. > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tsvwg-quickstart-03 > > S. Schuetz, L. Eggert, W. Eddy, Y. Swami and K. Le. TCP Response to > Lower-Layer Connectivity-Change Indications. Internet Draft draft- > schuetz-tcpm-tcp-rlci-00, Work in Progress, May 2006. > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schuetz-tcpm-tcp-rlci-00 > > J. Korhonen, S. Park, J. Zhang, C. Hwang and P. Sarolahti. Link > Characteristic Information for IP Mobility Problem Statement. > Internet Draft draft-korhonen-mobopts-link-characteristics-ps-01, > Work in Progress, June 2006. > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-korhonen-mobopts-link- > characteristics-ps-01 -- Michael Welzl University of Innsbruck From ternli-bounces@ietf.org Tue Jun 20 19:29:58 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FspfR-0000jC-UX; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:29:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FspfQ-0000ix-Ag for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:29:56 -0400 Received: from mailout1.samsung.com ([203.254.224.24]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FspfO-00087M-PB for ternli@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:29:56 -0400 Received: from ep_mmp2 (mailout1.samsung.com [203.254.224.24]) by mailout1.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 Patch 2 (built Jul 14 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J160040MMLS0O@mailout1.samsung.com> for ternli@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:52 +0900 (KST) Received: from daniellaptop ([124.235.139.4]) by mmp2.samsung.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 1.17 (built Jun 23 2003)) with ESMTPA id <0J1600FGRMLQI8@mmp2.samsung.com> for ternli@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:51 +0900 (KST) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2006 08:29:51 +0900 From: Soohong Daniel Park To: mobopts@irtf.org Message-id: <034601c694c1$6e94c3c0$bd01640a@daniellaptop> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: ternli@ietf.org Subject: [TERNLI] Fw: I-D ACTION:draft-korhonen-mobopts-delivery-analysis-00.txt X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org FYI. Daniel (Soohong Daniel Park) Mobile Convergence Laboratory, SAMSUNG Electronics. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2006 7:50 AM Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-korhonen-mobopts-delivery-analysis-00.txt >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > > > Title : Link and Path Characteristic Information Delivery Analysis > Author(s) : J. Korhonen, et al. > Filename : draft-korhonen-mobopts-delivery-analysis-00.txt > Pages : 19 > Date : 2006-6-20 > > This document analyses capabilities and applicability of various IP > Mobility, signaling and transport protocols for delivering Link and > Path Characteristic Information between communicating end points. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-korhonen-mobopts-delivery-analysis-00.txt From ternli-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 28 10:56:07 2006 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FvbSZ-0002yg-0Q; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:56:07 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FvbSX-0002tL-27; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:56:05 -0400 Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de ([195.37.70.40]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1FvbSU-0008VO-Hr; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:56:05 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCCD20031DD; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:56:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (atlas1.office [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 08448-03; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:56:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from venus.office (europa.netlab.nec.de [10.1.1.25]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF1620031DC; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:56:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from n-eggert.office ([10.1.1.112]) by venus.office over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:56:01 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by n-eggert.office (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBD6612B3A8; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:56:01 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) To: ternli@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, int-area@ietf.org, mobopts@irtf.org, iccrg Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-17--746815637; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" References: From: Lars Eggert Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:55:59 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Jun 2006 14:56:01.0836 (UTC) FILETIME=[F8FDE6C0:01C69AC2] X-Virus-Scanned: Amavisd on Debian GNU/Linux (atlas1.office) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 Cc: Subject: [TERNLI] Fwd: 66th IETF - TERNLI BOF Cancelled X-BeenThere: ternli@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Transport-Enhancing Refinements to the Network Layer Interface List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: ternli-bounces@ietf.org --Apple-Mail-17--746815637 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Begin forwarded message: > From: IETF Agenda > Date: June 28, 2006 4:24:42 PM GMT+02:00 > To: IETF Announcement list > Subject: 66th IETF - TERNLI BOF Cancelled > > The TERNLI BOF session scheduled for Monday at 1520-1720 has been > cancelled. > > BOF preparations were much more elaborate than initially estimated, > due to the > complex problem space that this BOF targeted. Because a poor BOF is > worse than > no BOF, the organizers have decided to postpone TERNLI until the > San Diego > meeting. This will give the interested parties more time to prepare > for a > successful session. > > In order to attract additional people interested in this topic, the > Montreal > TSVAREA and INTAREA meetings will have a short talk on the overall > problem > space. > > TSV and INT ADs -- Lars Eggert NEC Network Laboratories --Apple-Mail-17--746815637 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIKgzCCAyAw ggKJoAMCAQICAw9TWTANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMGA1UEChMcVGhh d3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNvbmFsIEZyZWVt YWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwHhcNMDUwODE4MTAyOTU2WhcNMDYwODE4MTAyOTU2WjBgMQ8wDQYDVQQE EwZFZ2dlcnQxDTALBgNVBCoTBExhcnMxFDASBgNVBAMTC0xhcnMgRWdnZXJ0MSgwJgYJKoZIhvcN AQkBFhlsYXJzLmVnZ2VydEBuZXRsYWIubmVjLmRlMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIB 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