From nobody Thu Apr 8 18:08:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96503A24A5 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:08:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I6vV1Ujg-2p3 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:08:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B762E3A24A3 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:08:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <5E29F0D0-1C95-4167-8FA7-BD9AEDAB0D26@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:08:00 +1200 To: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-arch] Follow up for TAS Team on I-D authors survey X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:08:09 -0000 Hi All As agreed with Martin I=E2=80=99m sending this to the TAS Team with the = aim of starting a major discussion on a number of architecture/strategy = issues that come from the I-D authors survey we conducted last year. = Each of these issues is encapsulated in a recommendation in the survey = report, authored by me and John Levine, in response to data and feedback = in the survey. These recommendations are set out with some further = explanation in this document: = https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ua0tedgRoY8C_f4Wh-TNn5UtDSDsJr-kMQ_p2a= OzK5A/edit?usp=3Dsharing For reference, the results of this survey are available as a basic web = report: https://ql.tc/T0WvDV And the full report of analysis and recommendations is: = https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/REPORT__Survey_of_I-D_Authors_on_Form= ats_and_Tools.pdf cheers Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Thu Apr 8 18:12:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3973A24CB for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:12:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRu_mzw0dWYG for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:12:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E2563A24CA for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:12:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D6B9452A-DBB2-4292-BCFD-4A40B0109CC4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <303C8EC5-1D35-48A6-A69E-667491EC4972@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:12:25 +1200 To: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:12:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D6B9452A-DBB2-4292-BCFD-4A40B0109CC4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 =3D Recommendation Recommendation 6: This survey has identified four broad categories of = client that are in use: Editor, Build System, Web Service and Command = Line Tool; and four broad categories of functionality provided by the = tools: Editing, Boilerplate, Validation and Format Conversion. An = architectural model is needed that sits above and incorporates these = categories of clients and functionality, and determines how new and = existing services/tools integrate, easily and efficiently.=20 =3D Commentary Respondents have been clear that they use the tools from a variety of = clients and the current de facto interoperability model is the = filesystem. =20 =E2=80=A2 Editors directly invoke tools locally by pushing the = edited content to a temporary file and then reading in the results =E2=80=A2 Build systems invoke multiple tools sequentially = passing the output from one to another using a filesystem =E2=80=A2 Using a web service as an interactive UI to a tool = with the document provided as input =E2=80=A2 Direct invocation front the command line on a local = document. If these categories of clients are explicitly recognised and put on an = equal footing then this leads to a big question: Should our tools development adopt a modern paradigm for supporting a = variety of clients doing the same thing, which is a single backend API = with different front ends all calling that same API? If that is to be the case then it is worthwhile considering = standardising aspects of those APIs so that new tools authors do not = have to start from scratch and so that clients do not need to support = too many different APIs. Such standardisation might include: =E2=80=A2 The expected action of the tools =E2=80=A2 Editing - alter the existing document/fragment =E2=80=A2 Boilerplate - insert into an existing = document/fragment =E2=80=A2 Validation - make no changes to the existing = document/fragment but provide a set of annotations of it =E2=80=A2 Format conversion - provide an entirely new = document/fragment =E2=80=A2 Fragment identification, selection, annotation etc. This could come under a single architectural model such as:: Clients API Services =20 =20 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 = = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = Extract =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82= Elements =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Editor =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90= =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 Insert =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=98 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 Custom or =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Boilerplate =E2=94=82= =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Build =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98= =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 System =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90= =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Validate =E2=94=82= =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=90 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 Full or =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Web =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 Partial =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Service =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98= =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Convert =E2=94=82= =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Command =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = Between =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Line Tool =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 Formats =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = Datatracker =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82= Submission =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 = = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_D6B9452A-DBB2-4292-BCFD-4A40B0109CC4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
=3D  Recommendation

Recommendation 6:  This survey has identified four = broad categories of client that are in use: Editor, Build System, Web = Service and Command Line Tool; and four broad categories of = functionality provided by the tools: Editing, Boilerplate, Validation = and Format Conversion.  An architectural model is needed that sits = above and incorporates these categories of clients and functionality, = and determines how new and existing services/tools integrate, easily and = efficiently. 

=3D  Commentary

Respondents have been clear that they use the = tools from a variety of clients and the current de facto = interoperability model is the filesystem.  

=E2=80=A2 Editors directly invoke = tools locally by pushing the edited content to a temporary file and then = reading in the results

= =E2=80=A2 Build systems invoke multiple tools sequentially = passing the output from one to another using a filesystem

=E2=80=A2 = Using a web service as an interactive UI to a tool with the document = provided as input

=E2=80=A2 = Direct invocation front the command line on a local document.

If these categories of clients are = explicitly recognised and put on an equal footing then this leads to a = big question:

Should our tools development = adopt a modern paradigm for supporting a variety of clients doing the = same thing, which is a single backend API with different front ends all = calling that same API?

If that is to be the = case then it is worthwhile considering standardising aspects of those = APIs so that new tools authors do not have to start from scratch and so = that clients do not need to support too many different APIs.  Such = standardisation might include:

= =E2=80=A2 The expected action of the tools
= =E2=80=A2 Editing - alter the existing document/fragment
=E2=80=A2 Boilerplate - = insert into an existing document/fragment
= =E2=80=A2 Validation - make no changes to the existing = document/fragment but provide a set of annotations of it
=E2=80=A2 Format = conversion - provide an entirely new document/fragment
=E2=80=A2 Fragment = identification, selection, annotation etc.

This could come under a single architectural model such = as::

        Clients =                     =        API Services      
                =                     =                     =     
=E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =90             = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90
=E2=94=82               =        =E2=94=82           =   =E2=94=82                 =      =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82     =                  =E2=94=82 =             =E2=94=82   = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         =             =  =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82   Extract    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82=E2=94=82               =        =E2=94=82           =   =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   Elements   =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =   =E2=94=82             =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98=   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   =  Editor    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82     =         =E2=94=82   = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82     =          =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   =           =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   = Insert     =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98=   =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82   Custom or  =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =   =E2=94=82             =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82 Boilerplate  =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82    Build     = =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82             =E2=94= =82   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=98   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   =  System    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82     =         =E2=94=82   = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =   =E2=94=82             =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82   Validate   =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =   =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82   Full or    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82     Web     =  =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82           =   =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   Partial    =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   Service =    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82         =     =E2=94=82   = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =   =E2=94=82             =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90=   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =   =E2=94=82             =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82   Convert    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   Command    =E2=94=82=   =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82   Between    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82  Line Tool   =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82             =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82   Formats    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82=E2=94=82   = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =   =E2=94=82             =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98=   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         =              =E2=94=82     =         =E2=94=82   = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         =             =  =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82  Datatracker =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82               =        =E2=94=82           =   =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82  Submission  =E2=94=82 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         =              =E2=94=82     =         =E2=94=82   = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         =              =E2=94=82     =         =E2=94=82           =            =E2=94=82
=E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =98             = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98<= br class=3D"">

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_D6B9452A-DBB2-4292-BCFD-4A40B0109CC4-- From nobody Thu Apr 8 18:13:33 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4A13A24D8 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2HkkTPHhBMvE for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 031923A24D7 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:13:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <47196E4E-2CA7-4A4F-800F-45A7620E5A79@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:13:22 +1200 To: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 10: One-stop shop tool X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:13:32 -0000 =3D Recommendation Recommendation 10: A =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool should be = investigated.=20 =3D Commentary By a =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool we meant a tool with the = following characteristics: =E2=80=A2 GUI based, single tool that works on most OSs and = allows an author to do everything they need on I-D drafting/processing = in that one place.=20 =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG interface that hides the complexity of the = underlying XML, in much the same way that any modern word processor = does. (This does not have to be the only interface as some may want to = work on the underlying XML). =E2=80=A2 Has a plugin mechanism so that any I-D processing = tools can be added in for direct invocation. =E2=80=A2 Interacts with the Datatracker for submission and = retrieval of I-Ds and associated metadata. =E2=80=A2 Interacts with =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 IETF GitHub = repositories, including for the processing of issues, pull requests and = other collaboration features. (Also see recommendation 13 below) =E2=80=A2 Directly supports the AUTH48 process. In order to produce such a tool, the various I-D processing tools would = need to be refactored to work as plugins, going back to the concept = under recommendation 6 with them all implemented as APIs, supporting any = variety of client. Is this something the TAS Team would like to start the ball rolling on = recognising that there would be lots of community discussion required? --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Thu Apr 8 18:14:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496163A24E9 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WhZv2YJLoR7T for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 076C63A24DF for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:14:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:14:39 +1200 To: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 11: Tools ease of use and quality X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:14:53 -0000 =3D Recommendation Recommendation 11: Initiate a project to raise the overall ease of use = and quality of authoring tools, probably involving a UX professional to = create a consistent interaction model for all IETF-supported tools. = This is closely linked to recommendation 8 as the end-to-end support of = tools is a key element of their ease of use.=20 =3D Commentary For info, recommendation 8 is intended for RSOC: =E2=80=9CAn end-to-end = analysis is carried out to ensure that v3 XML can be used effectively = and seamlessly at all stages of the authoring process.=E2=80=9D. An application interaction model is a description of the actions someone = can perform in an application and the objects they can perform those on, = all expressed in a set of simple concepts and terminology, such that = once someone understands those concepts and terminology, understanding = how to interact with unfamiliar actions or objects becomes intuitive.=20 This is recommending using a UX professional to develop such a model and = document it in a style guide that is used for all IETF-commissioned work = and recommended to third parties who voluntarily develop tools. =20 To give an example, an interaction model may define the concept of = =E2=80=98validator=E2=80=99 as follows: =E2=80=A2 A =E2=80=98validator=E2=80=99 is passed a = document/fragment which it makes no changes to. It returns a list of = annotations and an overall status for the document/fragment. Each = annotation consists of [=E2=80=A6]. The list of statuses and their = meanings is [...].=20 An interaction model would generally be developed before or as part of = any standardisation of APIs as discussed under recommendation 6. The TAS Team may feel this is more of an implementation issue and so = best left to the Tools Team. --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Thu Apr 8 18:15:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D1BD3A24E9 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:15:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZqDFkgiEjvix for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 766833A24E8 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <26A2EC09-9D15-46EB-8300-E3BAD0B31EBD@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 13:15:45 +1200 To: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 13: Baking in support for git etc X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:15:55 -0000 =3D Recommendation Recommendation 13: A conversation needs to start on whether our tools = should be adapted to integrate with one or more collaboration platforms = or whether collaboration is achieved by third party services and tools = that work side-by-side the IETF tools. =3D Commentary A document collaboration platform, such as GitHub, comprises a set of = tools: version control, issue management, documentation, release = management, build system, etc. This is a rapidly developing area with = much of the innovation taking place in non-standard ways (i.e. the git = level is stable, but such things as roadmaps are changing fast). = Currently our tools do not support any collaboration platform and in = doing so are not taking advantage of the services they provide. =20 The question posed in this recommendation is should our tools be adapted = to integrate with such collaboration platforms? For example, should = idnits be able to pull a document directly from GitHub and record the = problems it finds as GitHub issues? --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Thu Apr 8 21:37:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B08E3A2B95; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:37:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=W0Fl3Vpw; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Tw4EOTTC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Eg3ogjtMCpkb; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487C03A2B97; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:37:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 300481647; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:37:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=4 EZ9vbPuIknM4nC91mIIg/1bVQ8JFmSv2zzBdbs0XFs=; b=W0Fl3VpwVyPHDhvQR /qKp1JA1Hrby71ehXeuG5gBj2EnShYMCc6kD1QzBBm4rG2/jwjzlvxvzkXud4C9b 7inLJw/f5dbTR69+bF2udp89h809BYxMGy3CLjVPfUk2Nh+nIKSImPFlfpRQ/US2 9dkrzukR7MdTnL9MLb+U1DH+Y3xbHpk/jpgjnumH/kEioikK43lQrbmUQAPIGtxE KxnbfYND+UEI98W+pEFwyc3kQzGHt2DYgXTFspUNdMLNi0HGSRNB1yM5RqQfUriV xsSc6hfAI6RuLIyI1S4QwdRiq6Fs8lOGW/56Wu3t/FIuzDQZK/7+DrqYrMfavUxB Jcdjg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=4EZ9vbPuIknM4nC91mIIg/1bVQ8JFmSv2zzBdbs0X Fs=; b=Tw4EOTTChlnOOWVR1Vx8dtJ63NPx8a/umBIkt9G5H9JolUqYTEZFM0NPr hdV3qGTsK3D2rTCxqdVL/+SNNfI08wuM1G9AYp7HzJzt0oAC+mGiVGZ+42D3B8Ag nGq2ZNJaU0wjVEDmC3QdjuCi+7n4PaFH+kjAFc9+JjIGGJ1ccRb73RIcmb8RBBOB YP26LvKQ9egCf+/4tagTXmRDSbe8YGAktwhRrsb9lGz247OsjqOi1c6lO7HCejYt 7zbRDd7PRBB8rsBEbTTwbqfTImDN+IwS3Hme1q4XFepewFsVfx4CIlRpMHVtBIBN /DCxzdk9n4Qpk/MhlS6vl8p1yRAtg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudektddgkeegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteefleffjeffhfehheeffeegudelgf eujedukeeigedvgeehffefvdehffeileeknecuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthen ucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1364E240057; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <303C8EC5-1D35-48A6-A69E-667491EC4972@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:37:07 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <72E3450F-0E88-46C4-B735-D6693C475BCB@mnot.net> References: <303C8EC5-1D35-48A6-A69E-667491EC4972@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 04:37:37 -0000 Hi Jay, > On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:12 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > =3D Recommendation >=20 > Recommendation 6: This survey has identified four broad categories of = client that are in use: Editor, Build System, Web Service and Command = Line Tool; and four broad categories of functionality provided by the = tools: Editing, Boilerplate, Validation and Format Conversion. An = architectural model is needed that sits above and incorporates these = categories of clients and functionality, and determines how new and = existing services/tools integrate, easily and efficiently.=20 I'm not sure 'architectural model' is the right terminology here. What = we're seeing is different modes of access to the tools -- I think our = goal is to assure that all tools a) are able to be used in each of the = modes, and b) get as much leverage/common use out of the provided = interfaces as possible (by standardising formats / options / etc.). > =3D Commentary >=20 > Respondents have been clear that they use the tools from a variety of = clients and the current de facto interoperability model is the = filesystem. =20 >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Editors directly invoke tools locally by pushing the = edited content to a temporary file and then reading in the results >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Build systems invoke multiple tools sequentially = passing the output from one to another using a filesystem >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Using a web service as an interactive UI to a tool = with the document provided as input >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Direct invocation front the command line on a local = document. >=20 > If these categories of clients are explicitly recognised and put on an = equal footing then this leads to a big question: >=20 > Should our tools development adopt a modern paradigm for supporting a = variety of clients doing the same thing, which is a single backend API = with different front ends all calling that same API? I don't understand the use of 'API' here. Are you suggesting that there = is some service that runs in the network centrally to provide all tool = functions? Or is this an API specific to one programming language? > If that is to be the case then it is worthwhile considering = standardising aspects of those APIs so that new tools authors do not = have to start from scratch and so that clients do not need to support = too many different APIs. Such standardisation might include: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 The expected action of the tools > =E2=80=A2 Editing - alter the existing document/fragment > =E2=80=A2 Boilerplate - insert into an existing = document/fragment > =E2=80=A2 Validation - make no changes to the existing = document/fragment but provide a set of annotations of it > =E2=80=A2 Format conversion - provide an entirely new = document/fragment > =E2=80=A2 Fragment identification, selection, annotation etc. >=20 > This could come under a single architectural model such as:: >=20 > Clients API Services =20 > =20 > = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 = = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 = =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = Extract =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82= Elements =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 = =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Editor =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=90 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Insert =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=98 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 Custom or =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Boilerplate =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Build =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=98 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 System =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=90 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Validate =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=90 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 Full or =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Web =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Partial =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Service =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=98 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 = =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Convert =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Command =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = Between =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Line Tool =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Formats =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 = =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 = =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = Datatracker =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82= Submission =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 = =E2=94=82 > =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 > = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 = = =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Apr 8 21:40:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9653A2BB0; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:40:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=tZayXzyT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=R5SEHELD Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cmSnuNubxjJ8; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65D3F3A2BAE; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F531654; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:40:22 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=K VdgjRZhIOAi/c+STicBjpj3Cy0jgyHKyKguObFWicA=; b=tZayXzyTbgWUZLA3q O06pk6acKSkq7H/cTK3iP2ohphHXqysXJCfbmaEKdE6mgU4MKvvFninDMrJak+FX 8KQCSRUU1lstyuUo4c0xJ7V1e/W4Sao2PoEcmOdnmUUeEFPozW+XZzZOXIgn1gdD SwoB/iznKL/unFw8UBObZvs+Z7DDi6z+Igkg9yL+OA+vDKjJ7k32PxNP63AXDLYb T2WKXhnMo9PvtlZGtx/nc3rjj9JwX8Z9FI8mA5BbcgIMHvk+DJvoHteLd0TlO/jj 6WhuAQ1xhVG5m7ZjkbfOGr1D5qBqqnD6FkpiH8RG5GO5AkTURySMSuzPhNLo7MhW RBYmg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=KVdgjRZhIOAi/c+STicBjpj3Cy0jgyHKyKguObFWi cA=; b=R5SEHELDwQQ7MYJ8sJsFmFcDaqUGNGiYB6poT0DD8PtW9DiC94g8dzyxg i0Ub5Y5XGyxbOWuE9CO6pV5IolUQUaT7Ss8a5QoWWnCGshVcAH06SlkPfYL4UNMm FQYnn70osojpH1jLbdDbsIEqAOmURnGjAlXvNjPhb3cHroiK2atP4ZAe8NW5sMBB wYgi/bkYn4GOdOid3XqoPOCW4UtVqCEeelO443iDNORdLqB/K9hpKFSf3wqYY5CJ hpwGFxxQ82dCVSbHWT+2Iezq2N011jo5zIknLwvv3FgVHM1JYmAqj7aW9oNFlbVl Qon1zUseU1LHiTJjtKU+jS+dxHGwg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudektddgkeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveeitdehffehgedtfeekjedvvefhke evtdffjeeifedthedtveeihffgjeejheeinecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtgho mhdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrd dvhedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhep mhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D3770240057; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:40:19 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <47196E4E-2CA7-4A4F-800F-45A7620E5A79@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:40:16 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <47196E4E-2CA7-4A4F-800F-45A7620E5A79@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 10: One-stop shop tool X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 04:40:28 -0000 This seems to go against the 'small pieces loosely joined' philosophy of = tool-making seen in our community (and broader technical communities, = such as Unix). It also seems to reinforce the centrality of the tools team -- i.e., if = I want to get any leverage in the ecosystem (e.g., with a format = validator), I have to write a plugin for the tools team, rather than = writing something that merely operates on a format (see eg = ). I don't think that's = something we should be doing. Finally, writing a multi-OS GUI tool to 'do everything' is NOT a small = undertaking. I'd like to see a trend towards smaller, more controlled = tools, not bigger ones. Cheers, > On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:13 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > =3D Recommendation >=20 > Recommendation 10: A =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool should be = investigated.=20 >=20 > =3D Commentary >=20 > By a =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool we meant a tool with the = following characteristics: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 GUI based, single tool that works on most OSs and = allows an author to do everything they need on I-D drafting/processing = in that one place.=20 >=20 > =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG interface that hides the complexity of the = underlying XML, in much the same way that any modern word processor = does. (This does not have to be the only interface as some may want to = work on the underlying XML). >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Has a plugin mechanism so that any I-D processing = tools can be added in for direct invocation. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Interacts with the Datatracker for submission and = retrieval of I-Ds and associated metadata. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Interacts with =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 IETF GitHub = repositories, including for the processing of issues, pull requests and = other collaboration features. (Also see recommendation 13 below) >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Directly supports the AUTH48 process. >=20 > In order to produce such a tool, the various I-D processing tools = would need to be refactored to work as plugins, going back to the = concept under recommendation 6 with them all implemented as APIs, = supporting any variety of client. >=20 > Is this something the TAS Team would like to start the ball rolling on = recognising that there would be lots of community discussion required? >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > Tools-arch mailing list > Tools-arch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Apr 8 21:43:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3683A2BC8; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:43:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=McM8CBiD; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=bD4V29oJ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XrAG3z09Qd61; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8916D3A2BCA; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63477166F; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:43:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=f 8deC/deAhtlqzKmLAn8NGLqcRKcW3D7sEGPnScA/Z0=; b=McM8CBiDqc8QFAerV fz+IUN1O6h9JzU2h84w8Wl8ZnvZsK7kjQHOoO57xf++C6ehxfTEG1zq42J/84pb1 vPaI6LzkOB7BN0x7VkayCiEXajhFZ3XuUn6T9y1W5D7e7zzLymdRa4xbySbDN/jQ OzXNrba7fdlbLaaW79BMfF0qUc3zFM1NZprnHlJcNZ+bYumPPwD2LSZvcdM2yTNV I2cgVXbZv1o2/NGLjcfMFq7Mb6kR3Q+Fl84NzgUhVTgCPIG7q0o6fbD6phusNZRT Azqs+ww+hHb1Pa/rn7yczzMq4G400bhUy/QvSmOazodrlPi1mZ5/gAoPIs5vOpu7 AkE0g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=f8deC/deAhtlqzKmLAn8NGLqcRKcW3D7sEGPnScA/ Z0=; b=bD4V29oJBPos7f3xk19kkMlEXPIR+qlo2oXztnHaEqAu1hD66wM2jqlCy fntLyZp1KthiZR9gkdcqe/8pejHA9WYypMT7LhWi1d0lxoPiqFU+ybcbJ7gnGcEO rxnCUu4vXdZLthO795KLOozkqBtmBXIc1ZczI+Qk8nIj5XyJmWQWO+ApgOiJmBzQ Q2hEoWkUtdws8lFJC2EPmKlkMFLhb3ej9TiRHqrg3hqUScOvpLh+UTCKphgRbaEZ 9SVoo7enAbmKexu2PhO4ucKTJGvBdfCZzCBKVlGOb31AMI5d5pfp6moNi8UzPGe3 4dyMTLyhNe3rfJMC9yAfv6F2jtiQw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudektddgkeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepteefleffjeffhfehheeffeegudelgf eujedukeeigedvgeehffefvdehffeileeknecuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthen ucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 91F0F240057; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:43:29 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 11: Tools ease of use and quality X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 04:43:41 -0000 > On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:14 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > =3D Recommendation >=20 > Recommendation 11: Initiate a project to raise the overall ease of = use and quality of authoring tools, probably involving a UX professional = to create a consistent interaction model for all IETF-supported tools. = This is closely linked to recommendation 8 as the end-to-end support of = tools is a key element of their ease of use.=20 I suspect we need an information architect before we need a UX designer. = Many of the problems we face are do to the larger-scale organisation of = our info/services and the mental models of them, rather than the = detailed presentation / interface issues. > =3D Commentary >=20 > For info, recommendation 8 is intended for RSOC: =E2=80=9CAn = end-to-end analysis is carried out to ensure that v3 XML can be used = effectively and seamlessly at all stages of the authoring process.=E2=80=9D= . I don't think a UX designer would be helpful for those issues, if that's = what's being suggested; this is language/format design, which is a = different discipline. > An application interaction model is a description of the actions = someone can perform in an application and the objects they can perform = those on, all expressed in a set of simple concepts and terminology, = such that once someone understands those concepts and terminology, = understanding how to interact with unfamiliar actions or objects becomes = intuitive.=20 >=20 > This is recommending using a UX professional to develop such a model = and document it in a style guide that is used for all IETF-commissioned = work and recommended to third parties who voluntarily develop tools. =20= >=20 > To give an example, an interaction model may define the concept of = =E2=80=98validator=E2=80=99 as follows: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 A =E2=80=98validator=E2=80=99 is passed a = document/fragment which it makes no changes to. It returns a list of = annotations and an overall status for the document/fragment. Each = annotation consists of [=E2=80=A6]. The list of statuses and their = meanings is [...].=20 >=20 > An interaction model would generally be developed before or as part of = any standardisation of APIs as discussed under recommendation 6. >=20 > The TAS Team may feel this is more of an implementation issue and so = best left to the Tools Team. This feels very top-down architecture. I agree we need more rigour about = tools' input and output, but I'm not convinced this is the way to do it. -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Apr 8 21:44:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419663A2BCC; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=Dc4fG3qI; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=OQ3c0gSj Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 24b0jK4fbM1V; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:44:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC1F13A2BC8; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 21:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EEE166B; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 00:44:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=Y aXUyP9kXOtjJ/j46vcNs0eeFR+fS6WhZqKeXXXwRB4=; b=Dc4fG3qI4MkmVu20f cKwfaT9bXHO7+afSq0lRsO7S0xKkUy8SnKFpe3CLbWj8fQerQdH5tcdF0DL6jocq zIiijVSeuypXwCvVMVtp9ye6NIItnIfLdM0OCSqhkrZ+yFhsotGaTcavXSwN1gla 0C5hG/KjCsypnGHWfcI7DNqnLRmfObRiahwky8NevkcaK1HBRKbOWRl0grwj7I3k w7uBtKpxTeiJAtz9vnPXFZdNfYQ+vycyEk5HQDlDCmRG8U9ue1D+Emh800R5kSy+ kK6vmN0CyVLYRj7KyjGR19oFDP5Z7Mp90JOYFJDe9CBLJGmqrU7dX7GK6OkObUCn g56qw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=YaXUyP9kXOtjJ/j46vcNs0eeFR+fS6WhZqKeXXXwR B4=; b=OQ3c0gSj2eKuL6ZmZXLKpW8vC6juE6I10UcX17/gfiSjIq+nJ5WokADN6 KgSi/9v6Yi45fFLcJWPMcJdo9vWF4MdiQy+xk2yHxXFP38krTsgXGrHxm9QSppu5 K2t6CACuMrZCLEBT8n3va+AmSS5VS3+XBJhPttNFVGSid54MS0a8KMk3f0BMj6Xo +7GGDQdup+JdN7aC8oeREqQNl97vhw/XZ//01TmRNSG6A9sp5ll1ELBTym8LlY5F CRkmtJZHc2r+KyM4zURB/S0ZByjhjLIbr2JDI0LwL5g3baCjK5ta5UfYYFZ3q6Sm 0wo6fXrSyo4bxrAb5Pl8vNyRP6PLg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudektddgkeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeduvdeljeegtefhveekhfdtveekle evkeefgeeludeihfdugedvieeuffdttdfhnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghdp mhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushhtvg hrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhn vght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 90C74240057; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 00:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <26A2EC09-9D15-46EB-8300-E3BAD0B31EBD@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 14:44:07 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <33F127D3-4177-4D4B-A081-F50428719906@mnot.net> References: <26A2EC09-9D15-46EB-8300-E3BAD0B31EBD@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 13: Baking in support for git etc X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 04:44:21 -0000 My .02 - I don't think there's enough value here to justify the cost / = ongoing maintenance / complexity. > On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:15 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > =3D Recommendation >=20 > Recommendation 13: A conversation needs to start on whether our tools = should be adapted to integrate with one or more collaboration platforms = or whether collaboration is achieved by third party services and tools = that work side-by-side the IETF tools. >=20 > =3D Commentary >=20 > A document collaboration platform, such as GitHub, comprises a set of = tools: version control, issue management, documentation, release = management, build system, etc. This is a rapidly developing area with = much of the innovation taking place in non-standard ways (i.e. the git = level is stable, but such things as roadmaps are changing fast). = Currently our tools do not support any collaboration platform and in = doing so are not taking advantage of the services they provide. =20 >=20 > The question posed in this recommendation is should our tools be = adapted to integrate with such collaboration platforms? For example, = should idnits be able to pull a document directly from GitHub and record = the problems it finds as GitHub issues? >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 > --=20 > Tools-arch mailing list > Tools-arch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Apr 8 22:11:00 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFB5F3A2C95 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:10:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sku_EiFqFE_O; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2E3073A2C94; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:10:53 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-10A6DCA5-6C9B-40C2-A0CB-79CD227581A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 17:10:46 +1200 Message-Id: <898A21CE-AA80-4AA9-AAC8-7230C27ABC79@ietf.org> References: <72E3450F-0E88-46C4-B735-D6693C475BCB@mnot.net> Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <72E3450F-0E88-46C4-B735-D6693C475BCB@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18D70) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 05:10:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail-10A6DCA5-6C9B-40C2-A0CB-79CD227581A9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 9/04/2021, at 4:37 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi Jay, >=20 >> On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:12 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> =3D Recommendation >>=20 >> Recommendation 6: This survey has identified four broad categories of cl= ient that are in use: Editor, Build System, Web Service and Command Line Too= l; and four broad categories of functionality provided by the tools: Editing= , Boilerplate, Validation and Format Conversion. An architectural model is n= eeded that sits above and incorporates these categories of clients and funct= ionality, and determines how new and existing services/tools integrate, easi= ly and efficiently.=20 >=20 > I'm not sure 'architectural model' is the right terminology here. What we'= re seeing is different modes of access to the tools -- I think our goal is t= o assure that all tools a) are able to be used in each of the modes, and b) g= et as much leverage/common use out of the provided interfaces as possible (b= y standardising formats / options / etc.). I=E2=80=99m happy to use your phrase =E2=80=98modes of access=E2=80=99 as th= at=E2=80=99s better for understanding one part of this. By architectural mod= el I meant the overall model that documents both these modes and how those m= odes of access are supported, which is where your next question touches on.=20= >=20 >=20 >> =3D Commentary >>=20 >> Respondents have been clear that they use the tools from a variety of cli= ents and the current de facto interoperability model is the filesystem. =20 >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Editors directly invoke tools locally by pushing the edited c= ontent to a temporary file and then reading in the results >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Build systems invoke multiple tools sequentially passing the= output from one to another using a filesystem >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Using a web service as an interactive UI to a tool with the d= ocument provided as input >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Direct invocation front the command line on a local document= . >>=20 >> If these categories of clients are explicitly recognised and put on an eq= ual footing then this leads to a big question: >>=20 >> Should our tools development adopt a modern paradigm for supporting a var= iety of clients doing the same thing, which is a single backend API with dif= ferent front ends all calling that same API? >=20 > I don't understand the use of 'API' here. Are you suggesting that there is= some service that runs in the network centrally to provide all tool functio= ns? Or is this an API specific to one programming language? The former, which I personally think is the right way to go about it, with v= arious clients to those central APIs to support the different modes above. H= owever, I know that Robert for one has a different view.=20 Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director >=20 >=20 >> If that is to be the case then it is worthwhile considering standardising= aspects of those APIs so that new tools authors do not have to start from s= cratch and so that clients do not need to support too many different APIs. S= uch standardisation might include: >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 The expected action of the tools >> =E2=80=A2 Editing - alter the existing document/fragment >> =E2=80=A2 Boilerplate - insert into an existing document/fragment >> =E2=80=A2 Validation - make no changes to the existing document/fr= agment but provide a set of annotations of it >> =E2=80=A2 Format conversion - provide an entirely new document/fra= gment >> =E2=80=A2 Fragment identification, selection, annotation etc. >>=20 >> This could come under a single architectural model such as:: >>=20 >> Clients API Services =20 >>=20 >> =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =E2= =94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Extract =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82= Elements =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Editor =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =E2= =94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 Insert =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =98 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = Custom or =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Boilerplate =E2=94=82 =E2= =94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Build =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =E2= =94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 System =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =E2= =94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Validate =E2=94=82 =E2= =94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =90 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = Full or =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Web =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 Partial =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Service =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =E2= =94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =90 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Convert =E2=94=82 =E2= =94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Command =E2=94=82 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Between =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82= >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Line Tool =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94= =82 =E2=94=82 Formats =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =98 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=8C= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =96=B6=E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 Datatracker =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82= Submission =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=94= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 =E2=94=82 = =E2=94=82 >> =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 =E2= =94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 --Apple-Mail-10A6DCA5-6C9B-40C2-A0CB-79CD227581A9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 9/04/2021, at 4:37 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote= :

=EF=BB= =BFHi Jay,

= On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:12 am, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
=

=3D  Recommendation

Recommendation 6:  This survey has identified four broad categ= ories of client that are in use: Editor, Build System, Web Service and Comma= nd Line Tool; and four broad categories of functionality provided by the too= ls: Editing, Boilerplate, Validation and Format Conversion.  An archite= ctural model is needed that sits above and incorporates these categories of c= lients and functionality, and determines how new and existing services/tools= integrate, easily and efficiently.
I'm not sure 'architectural model' is the right terminology here. Wha= t we're seeing is different modes of access to the tools -- I think our goal= is to assure that all tools a) are able to be used in each of the modes, an= d b) get as much leverage/common use out of the provided interfaces as possi= ble (by standardising formats / options / etc.).

I=E2=80=99m happy to use your phrase =E2=80=98modes of acce= ss=E2=80=99 as that=E2=80=99s better for understanding one part of this. By a= rchitectural model I meant the overall model that documents both these modes= and how those modes of access are supported, which is where your next quest= ion touches on. 
<= /span>

=3D  Comment= ary

Respondents have been clear that they= use the tools from a variety of clients and the current de facto interopera= bility model is the filesystem.  

&= nbsp;  =E2=80=A2 Editors directly invoke tools locally by pushing the e= dited content to a temporary file and then reading in the results
=

   =E2=80=A2 Build systems invoke multip= le tools sequentially passing the output from one to another using a filesys= tem

   =E2=80=A2 Using a web s= ervice as an interactive UI to a tool with the document provided as input

   =E2=80=A2 Direct invocation f= ront the command line on a local document.

If these categories of clients are explicitly recognised and put on an equ= al footing then this leads to a big question:

<= span>Should our tools development adopt a modern paradigm for supporting a v= ariety of clients doing the same thing, which is a single backend API with d= ifferent front ends all calling that same API?
=
I don't understand the use of 'API' here. Are you suggestin= g that there is some service that runs in the network centrally to provide a= ll tool functions? Or is this an API specific to one programming language?

The former, which I personal= ly think is the right way to go about it, with various clients to those cent= ral APIs to support the different modes above.  However, I know that Ro= bert for one has a different view. 

Jay
<= div>
-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director



If that is to be the case then it is worthwhile= considering standardising aspects of those APIs so that new tools authors d= o not have to start from scratch and so that clients do not need to support t= oo many different APIs.  Such standardisation might include:
=

   =E2=80=A2 The expected action of the t= ools
    &= nbsp;  =E2=80=A2 Editing - alter the existing document/fragment<= br>
       = =E2=80=A2 Boilerplate - insert into an existing document/fragment
=
       =E2= =80=A2 Validation - make no changes to the existing document/fragment but pr= ovide a set of annotations of it
       =E2=80=A2 Format conversion - provid= e an entirely new document/fragment
   =E2=80=A2 Fragment identification, selection, ann= otation etc.
<= br>
This could come under a sing= le architectural model such as::

 &= nbsp;     Clients      &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;        API Services  &nbs= p;   
=
=E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90       =       =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=90
=E2= =94=82            &nb= sp;         =E2=94=82  &nb= sp;          =E2=94=82 &nb= sp;            &= nbsp;       =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82      =             &nbs= p;   =E2=94=82        &nbs= p;    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82     &nbs= p;            &n= bsp;   =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94= =82   =E2=94=82   Extract    =E2=94=82 &n= bsp; =E2=94=82
=E2= =94=82            &nb= sp;         =E2=94=82  &nb= sp;          =E2=94=82 &nb= sp; =E2=94=82   Elements   =E2=94=82   =E2= =94=82
=E2=94=82 &nbs= p; =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90 &= nbsp; =E2=94=82          &= nbsp;  =E2=94=82   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   &nb= sp;Editor    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   &nbs= p;         =E2=94=82  &nbs= p;=E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90  =  =E2=94=82
=E2=94= =82   =E2=94=82         &n= bsp;    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   &nbs= p;         =E2=94=82  &nbs= p;=E2=94=82   Insert     =E2=94=82   = ;=E2=94=82
=E2=94=82 &= nbsp; =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98=   =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82 &nb= sp; =E2=94=82   Custom or  =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82=
=E2=94=82  &nbs= p;=E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90  =  =E2=94=82           =   =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82 Boilerplate  =E2=94=82 &nbs= p; =E2=94=82
=E2= =94=82   =E2=94=82    Build     = ;=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82        &= nbsp;    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82 &nb= sp;  System    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82 &nbs= p;           =E2=94=82=   =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =90   =E2=94=82
<= span>=E2=94=82   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=98   =E2=94=82       &n= bsp;     =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82  &nbs= p;Validate   =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=90   =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   Fu= ll or    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82  &nb= sp;  Web      =E2=94=82   =E2=94= =82             = =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   Partial    =E2=94= =82   =E2=94=82
<= span>=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   Service    =E2= =94=82   =E2=94=82         = ;    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98   =E2=94=82  = ;           =E2=94=82=   =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =90   =E2=94=82
<= span>=E2=94=82   =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=90   =E2=94=82       &n= bsp;     =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82  &nbs= p;Convert    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82  = ; Command    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82   Betwe= en    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=
=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82  Line T= ool   =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82     &nbs= p;       =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82 &= nbsp; Formats    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82<= br>
=E2=94=82   =E2=94= =94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98   =E2= =94=82            &nb= sp;=E2=94=82   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=98   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         &= nbsp;            = ;=E2=94=82            = ; =E2=94=82   =E2=94=8C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=90   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         = ;            &nb= sp;=E2=94=9C=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=96=B6=E2=94=82   =E2= =94=82  Datatracker =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82      =             &nbs= p;   =E2=94=82        &nbs= p;    =E2=94=82   =E2=94=82  Submission &= nbsp;=E2=94=82   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         &n= bsp;            = =E2=94=82            =  =E2=94=82   =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=98   =E2=94=82
=E2=94=82         = ;            &nb= sp;=E2=94=82           &nb= sp; =E2=94=82          &nb= sp;           =E2=94=82=
=E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=98       =       =E2=94=94=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94= =80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2= =94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80=E2=94=80= =E2=94=80=E2=94=98




--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

= --Apple-Mail-10A6DCA5-6C9B-40C2-A0CB-79CD227581A9-- From nobody Thu Apr 8 22:15:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98DE13A2CBF; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:15:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=qFIDBy+C; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=j2Fjtl41 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H-Q5coo8eCDe; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4097E3A2CBE; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1956B15B7; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 01:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:14:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=Q 2qQR2kSUws96bHjLckYJlPIz9aRIyJE09TBYY/U80Q=; b=qFIDBy+C9JvAEQQW9 5tIagIFRoeGIEOUV3ubjYQe4FtKD8qCWghVo9/6HUxA3ZfPMg6M6hm/KxHNpzcjv Yjz9RwS7wPYuI49nOMTT0+HviFFDZ5BiVZkDwWeD0I9eBC/g5WouS6728LQ7KJhi HgfHlpDMm5hBYzO2ZRWFx9bLLTP1929B7QZmeinN2GjBVpQ/xs1J9T9tW4skCxQa 5B060o3plH/xzbaON8w6gIY9Gojjqgj39+BFhZ8uENI0a6M4tdgUvmnryidSHMcA 0srpM2AugAis6/xGa2D1fOtO3Fi4A570TBG+aZwlKgrYOe1t9WD2LtPOVYDq32Xy ybo6g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=Q2qQR2kSUws96bHjLckYJlPIz9aRIyJE09TBYY/U8 0Q=; b=j2Fjtl416AZHPlqMCCAA32a+wNSUup5RgT+Yk4vJE04vfpsZ7JR3KkyxP k7R+phtvJyZ3//m7IBqf3d7kbc+hKGwxqH5H2+DnRtgSEFK1XixevMGaovq1687x QZ8SnbK2x4+TlxdaE5AiY446yum7dPHf1ck6OfXWrC9Io9nj0p828nGGfF5sjJZ/ /a9eIyi/EHwl+bLTSUZyjRhvUoevUb3IMJC7Jy+7tuDh328lFFjS40iwFuNd8Bt8 BCnNfAtTo0//pnOwE2P3of4zW6cMouqX1dPEMSP3Zzgo8Q04ZTjyAeUKxqd+Y3wp J/bU5ALC6E4muTpTsxIr7inoc9tnQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudektddgledvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqh hmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcupfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehm nhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepvefffffhudetveevhfeuffeigedtue dtheffleetffeftddtgeegjeehieeuteetnecuffhomhgrihhnpehmnhhothdrnhgvthen ucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 26EC1108005C; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 01:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <898A21CE-AA80-4AA9-AAC8-7230C27ABC79@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:14:53 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <72E3450F-0E88-46C4-B735-D6693C475BCB@mnot.net> <898A21CE-AA80-4AA9-AAC8-7230C27ABC79@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 05:15:07 -0000 > On 9 Apr 2021, at 3:10 pm, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > The former, which I personally think is the right way to go about it, = with various clients to those central APIs to support the different = modes above. However, I know that Robert for one has a different view.=20= I think I agree with Robert here, but I'd like to understand what's = driving towards centralisation. If there's some 'source of truth' = necessary, an API might make sense; however, my current mental model is = that the tools should operate on well-documented formats, which can live = in a variety of places (e.g., data tracker, my local disk, GitHub, a = server somewhere). Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Apr 8 22:25:13 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC273A2D14 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:25:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id THUGWgobEsLn; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 429773A2D11; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-D0596BE4-4A2E-4DB1-9A5D-039F5A7008C3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 17:25:03 +1200 Message-Id: References: Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18D70) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 10: One-stop shop tool X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 05:25:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail-D0596BE4-4A2E-4DB1-9A5D-039F5A7008C3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I understand the concerns but this came through from multiple respondents wh= o consider our DIY, multi-tool approach to be a big barrier to participation= so I would really like us to think through the details before coming to a v= iew.=20 For example, I can see how we might achieve this using Atom as a base editor= as that has XML, XSLT, schema validation and version control already handle= d by existing plugins and us writing new plugins for=20 - data tracker submission/retrieval - YANG validators - conversion to TXT, PDF etc - boilerplate insertion/update - and so on If those plugins are actually just lightweight clients of central APIs that d= eliver the heavy lifting then it becomes even easier.=20 Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director > On 9/04/2021, at 4:40 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThis seems to go against the 'small pieces loosely joined' philos= ophy of tool-making seen in our community (and broader technical communities= , such as Unix). >=20 > It also seems to reinforce the centrality of the tools team -- i.e., if I w= ant to get any leverage in the ecosystem (e.g., with a format validator), I h= ave to write a plugin for the tools team, rather than writing something that= merely operates on a format (see eg ). I don't think that's something we should be doing. >=20 > Finally, writing a multi-OS GUI tool to 'do everything' is NOT a small und= ertaking. I'd like to see a trend towards smaller, more controlled tools, no= t bigger ones. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 >> On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:13 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> =3D Recommendation >>=20 >> Recommendation 10: A =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool should be inve= stigated.=20 >>=20 >> =3D Commentary >>=20 >> By a =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool we meant a tool with the follow= ing characteristics: >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 GUI based, single tool that works on most OSs and allows an a= uthor to do everything they need on I-D drafting/processing in that one plac= e.=20 >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG interface that hides the complexity of the underlyin= g XML, in much the same way that any modern word processor does. (This does= not have to be the only interface as some may want to work on the underlyin= g XML). >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Has a plugin mechanism so that any I-D processing tools can b= e added in for direct invocation. >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Interacts with the Datatracker for submission and retrieval o= f I-Ds and associated metadata. >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Interacts with =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 IETF GitHub reposi= tories, including for the processing of issues, pull requests and other coll= aboration features. (Also see recommendation 13 below) >>=20 >> =E2=80=A2 Directly supports the AUTH48 process. >>=20 >> In order to produce such a tool, the various I-D processing tools would n= eed to be refactored to work as plugins, going back to the concept under rec= ommendation 6 with them all implemented as APIs, supporting any variety of c= lient. >>=20 >> Is this something the TAS Team would like to start the ball rolling on re= cognising that there would be lots of community discussion required? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >> jay@ietf.org >>=20 >> --=20 >> Tools-arch mailing list >> Tools-arch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > --=20 > Tools-arch mailing list > Tools-arch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch --Apple-Mail-D0596BE4-4A2E-4DB1-9A5D-039F5A7008C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I understand the concerns but this came thr= ough from multiple respondents who consider our DIY, multi-tool approach to b= e a big barrier to participation so I would really like us to think through t= he details before coming to a view. 

For example, I c= an see how we might achieve this using Atom as a base editor as that has XML= , XSLT, schema validation and version control already handled by existing pl= ugins and us writing new plugins for 
- data tracker submissi= on/retrieval
- YANG validators
- conversion to TXT, PDF e= tc
- boilerplate insertion/update
- and so on
=
If those plugins are actually just lightweight clients of cen= tral APIs that deliver the heavy lifting then it becomes even easier. <= /div>

Jay

-- 
Jay Daley=
IETF Executive Director


On 9/04/2021, at 4:40 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net&g= t; wrote:

=EF=BB=BFThis seems to go against the 'small pieces loosely joined'= philosophy of tool-making seen in our community (and broader technical comm= unities, such as Unix).

It also seems to re= inforce the centrality of the tools team -- i.e., if I want to get any lever= age in the ecosystem (e.g., with a format validator), I have to write a plug= in for the tools team, rather than writing something that merely operates on= a format (see eg <https://github.com/mnot/rfc-http-validate>). I don'= t think that's something we should be doing.

Finally, writing a multi-OS GUI tool to 'do everything' is NOT a small und= ertaking. I'd like to see a trend towards smaller, more controlled tools, no= t bigger ones.

Cheers,


On 9 Apr 2021, at 11= :13 am, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

<= span>=3D  Recommendation

Recommendat= ion 10:  A =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool should be investigated.=

=3D  Commentary

By a =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool we meant a tool w= ith the following characteristics:

 =  =E2=80=A2 GUI based, single tool that works on most OSs and allows an= author to do everything they need on I-D drafting/processing in that one pl= ace.

   =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG int= erface that hides the complexity of the underlying XML, in much the same way= that any modern word processor does.  (This does not have to be the on= ly interface as some may want to work on the underlying XML).

   =E2=80=A2 Has a plugin mechanism so that a= ny I-D processing tools can be added in for direct invocation.

   =E2=80=A2 Interacts with the Datatracker= for submission and retrieval of I-Ds and associated metadata.

   =E2=80=A2 Interacts with =E2=80=98offici= al=E2=80=99 IETF GitHub repositories, including for the processing of issues= , pull requests and other collaboration features. (Also see recommendation 1= 3 below)

<= /blockquote>
   =E2=80=A2 Directly= supports the AUTH48 process.

In order to= produce such a tool, the various I-D processing tools would need to be refa= ctored to work as plugins, going back to the concept under recommendation 6 w= ith them all implemented as APIs, supporting any variety of client.

Is this something the TAS Team would like to star= t the ball rolling on recognising that there would be lots of community disc= ussion required?


=

--
Jay D= aley
IETF Executive D= irector
jay@ietf.org<= /span>

--
Tools-arch mailing list
Tools-arch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch

--
Mark Nottingham &nb= sp; https://www.mnot.net/

-- Tools-arch mailing list
Tools-arch@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch
= --Apple-Mail-D0596BE4-4A2E-4DB1-9A5D-039F5A7008C3-- From nobody Thu Apr 8 22:58:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B9513A09B9; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=DP2Sm5em; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=oxbJziUv Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sajgEooIxjjD; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6B2E3A08FE; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 22:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C63DD10FC; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 01:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 01:58:20 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=u gUrFJsGsgG82ekmmb1mwVQRhOGJ+a0KPoNNxedbSxM=; b=DP2Sm5emELBHXBQJd 1+uTNHo0lJRkXgDY80+//DbD2u44nG8UiJvKvnn2+TwTVZCgCloqoUljgcFUVkXv 8Rww6jZSLgX/fTEYeE7W77qNLdt/9X+V1EcO3DHLu9/k/am1lXPKOgEhqSqW7GrE v7BFdl1nBMTiUlvigInewSzK8W8jmdH7AfDxObRPX5k39R5bYXl1ASZcz9sVkftE 2wg60ghmmZd+S2/AeVrqKqWpVLZS1tzD2JetbDShVmI1RugmyqwWnU8X7AB0hV7r zWhvEeZw66rs3IgNDIRBFzDa30DNgbHXhhP1/fTLGyTPexuNNt1kFDSP3EOLtjfZ 5OynQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=ugUrFJsGsgG82ekmmb1mwVQRhOGJ+a0KPoNNxedbS xM=; b=oxbJziUvbWwqznkqu7dLwSroPiUqpZWFBQPbPSG5e460jhVoqbrUJgUQk 0lDT+/JITVOwgKjNLFEPb+i+PFrKDcdtN/1TOBIK2f7TxbWRyyCkXwb8ZtbnYD4U 4BTajVv8sBpX+GNcBpR5FkQ3tQXPPDJOd61j5GJyir3deQRx9OVyBHZkyf7vizFu Nk1JcIztqra4RsUHMRGorKH1o+kxB7LxfqlfZ/3CZmyhJVeItmAl5LwFUj0c+UwJ rKuSuc2hyKSWL3nK1fsV7zJWSwDDak9u4kGS2SIbG6/+lXKImhaaMTfk+j/V85wJ dtvwA+mVFR1YtNYKJeFyky/11dRUQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrudektddguddttdcutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesth hqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothes mhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeviedtheffheegtdefkeejvdevhf ekvedtffejieeftdehtdeviefhgfejjeehieenucffohhmrghinhepghhithhhuhgsrdgt ohhmpdhivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehke drvdehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhm pehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.7.30] (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 807CB240066; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 01:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:58:14 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <99513940-7253-49B3-B06D-8B53E127ABF1@mnot.net> References: To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 10: One-stop shop tool X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 05:58:40 -0000 I think my concern here is that the way this is phrased (e.g., with = 'plugins'), it appears that we're going to 'pick a winner' -- always a = bad idea when it comes to editors and developers! -- and centre the work = around that. I'd like to see the emphasis on providing discrete, atomic functions in = the most generic way possible, which can then accommodate adaptation to = different ecosystems (e.g., various editors, web UIs, CLI, etc.). The = Tools team might even provide some of those adaptations, and might = package it up in a way that's easy for newcomers to consume, and might = even promote that packaging so that they can find it more easily. But it = should also be possible for others to provide different adaptations, and = we should facilitate that (e.g., by helping them promote them to the = community). Does that make sense? > On 9 Apr 2021, at 3:25 pm, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > I understand the concerns but this came through from multiple = respondents who consider our DIY, multi-tool approach to be a big = barrier to participation so I would really like us to think through the = details before coming to a view.=20 >=20 > For example, I can see how we might achieve this using Atom as a base = editor as that has XML, XSLT, schema validation and version control = already handled by existing plugins and us writing new plugins for=20 > - data tracker submission/retrieval > - YANG validators > - conversion to TXT, PDF etc > - boilerplate insertion/update > - and so on >=20 > If those plugins are actually just lightweight clients of central APIs = that deliver the heavy lifting then it becomes even easier.=20 >=20 > Jay >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director >=20 >=20 >> On 9/04/2021, at 4:40 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFThis seems to go against the 'small pieces loosely joined' = philosophy of tool-making seen in our community (and broader technical = communities, such as Unix). >>=20 >> It also seems to reinforce the centrality of the tools team -- i.e., = if I want to get any leverage in the ecosystem (e.g., with a format = validator), I have to write a plugin for the tools team, rather than = writing something that merely operates on a format (see eg = ). I don't think that's = something we should be doing. >>=20 >> Finally, writing a multi-OS GUI tool to 'do everything' is NOT a = small undertaking. I'd like to see a trend towards smaller, more = controlled tools, not bigger ones. >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:13 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>>=20 >>> =3D Recommendation >>>=20 >>> Recommendation 10: A =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool should be = investigated.=20 >>>=20 >>> =3D Commentary >>>=20 >>> By a =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool we meant a tool with the = following characteristics: >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=A2 GUI based, single tool that works on most OSs and = allows an author to do everything they need on I-D drafting/processing = in that one place.=20 >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG interface that hides the complexity of the = underlying XML, in much the same way that any modern word processor = does. (This does not have to be the only interface as some may want to = work on the underlying XML). >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=A2 Has a plugin mechanism so that any I-D processing tools = can be added in for direct invocation. >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=A2 Interacts with the Datatracker for submission and = retrieval of I-Ds and associated metadata. >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=A2 Interacts with =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 IETF GitHub = repositories, including for the processing of issues, pull requests and = other collaboration features. (Also see recommendation 13 below) >>>=20 >>> =E2=80=A2 Directly supports the AUTH48 process. >>>=20 >>> In order to produce such a tool, the various I-D processing tools = would need to be refactored to work as plugins, going back to the = concept under recommendation 6 with them all implemented as APIs, = supporting any variety of client. >>>=20 >>> Is this something the TAS Team would like to start the ball rolling = on recognising that there would be lots of community discussion = required? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Jay Daley >>> IETF Executive Director >>> jay@ietf.org >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Tools-arch mailing list >>> Tools-arch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >> --=20 >> Tools-arch mailing list >> Tools-arch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Apr 8 23:50:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 743983A11CA for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:50:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 703N6aXq0-61; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.101] (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5869D3A11C4; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 23:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-6BA86128-849F-4D1F-9EEE-FAD80660109B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jay Daley Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 18:50:28 +1200 Message-Id: <19445DF8-707C-4A27-81FC-8672EA8BBE90@ietf.org> References: <99513940-7253-49B3-B06D-8B53E127ABF1@mnot.net> Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <99513940-7253-49B3-B06D-8B53E127ABF1@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18D70) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 10: One-stop shop tool X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 06:50:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail-6BA86128-849F-4D1F-9EEE-FAD80660109B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 9/04/2021, at 5:58 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI think my concern here is that the way this is phrased (e.g., wi= th 'plugins'), it appears that we're going to 'pick a winner' -- always a ba= d idea when it comes to editors and developers! -- and centre the work aroun= d that. >=20 > I'd like to see the emphasis on providing discrete, atomic functions in th= e most generic way possible, which can then accommodate adaptation to differ= ent ecosystems (e.g., various editors, web UIs, CLI, etc.). The Tools team m= ight even provide some of those adaptations, and might package it up in a wa= y that's easy for newcomers to consume, and might even promote that packagin= g so that they can find it more easily. But it should also be possible for o= thers to provide different adaptations, and we should facilitate that (e.g.,= by helping them promote them to the community). >=20 > Does that make sense? Yes and I think we want the same goals but I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99= re talking about mutually exclusive solutions.=20 Imagine we were to give people everything they wanted: - ability to use XML or Markdown or ?? end to end - a single one-stop-shop tool and all the tools as separate command line too= ls, as separate web interfaces, as separate plugins to their favourite edito= r, as separate automatable services=20 - ability to integrate with GitHub, GitLab, Bitbucket, etc Then could we do it and how could we do it? I think this is exactly the pro= blem that APIs solve - we build and maintain a central set of functionality t= hat is exposed by API, we build plugins to a chosen tool to give the one-sto= p-shop, we build separate web interfaces on top of those same APIs and we bu= ild separate CLI tools that call those APIs. If others want to build a plug-= in for their favourite editor then all they need do is build calls to the AP= I, nothing more.=20 Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 9 Apr 2021, at 3:25 pm, Jay Daley wrote: >>=20 >> I understand the concerns but this came through from multiple respondents= who consider our DIY, multi-tool approach to be a big barrier to participat= ion so I would really like us to think through the details before coming to a= view.=20 >>=20 >> For example, I can see how we might achieve this using Atom as a base edi= tor as that has XML, XSLT, schema validation and version control already han= dled by existing plugins and us writing new plugins for=20 >> - data tracker submission/retrieval >> - YANG validators >> - conversion to TXT, PDF etc >> - boilerplate insertion/update >> - and so on >>=20 >> If those plugins are actually just lightweight clients of central APIs th= at deliver the heavy lifting then it becomes even easier.=20 >>=20 >> Jay >>=20 >> --=20 >> Jay Daley >> IETF Executive Director >>=20 >>=20 >>>> On 9/04/2021, at 4:40 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFThis seems to go against the 'small pieces loosely joined' phil= osophy of tool-making seen in our community (and broader technical communiti= es, such as Unix). >>>=20 >>> It also seems to reinforce the centrality of the tools team -- i.e., if I= want to get any leverage in the ecosystem (e.g., with a format validator), I= have to write a plugin for the tools team, rather than writing something th= at merely operates on a format (see eg ). I don't think that's something we should be doing. >>>=20 >>> Finally, writing a multi-OS GUI tool to 'do everything' is NOT a small u= ndertaking. I'd like to see a trend towards smaller, more controlled tools, n= ot bigger ones. >>>=20 >>> Cheers, >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:13 am, Jay Daley wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =3D Recommendation >>>>=20 >>>> Recommendation 10: A =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool should be in= vestigated.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =3D Commentary >>>>=20 >>>> By a =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool we meant a tool with the foll= owing characteristics: >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=A2 GUI based, single tool that works on most OSs and allows an= author to do everything they need on I-D drafting/processing in that one pl= ace.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG interface that hides the complexity of the underlyi= ng XML, in much the same way that any modern word processor does. (This doe= s not have to be the only interface as some may want to work on the underlyi= ng XML). >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=A2 Has a plugin mechanism so that any I-D processing tools can= be added in for direct invocation. >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=A2 Interacts with the Datatracker for submission and retrieval= of I-Ds and associated metadata. >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=A2 Interacts with =E2=80=98official=E2=80=99 IETF GitHub repos= itories, including for the processing of issues, pull requests and other col= laboration features. (Also see recommendation 13 below) >>>>=20 >>>> =E2=80=A2 Directly supports the AUTH48 process. >>>>=20 >>>> In order to produce such a tool, the various I-D processing tools would= need to be refactored to work as plugins, going back to the concept under r= ecommendation 6 with them all implemented as APIs, supporting any variety of= client. >>>>=20 >>>> Is this something the TAS Team would like to start the ball rolling on r= ecognising that there would be lots of community discussion required? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Jay Daley >>>> IETF Executive Director >>>> jay@ietf.org >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Tools-arch mailing list >>>> Tools-arch@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>>=20 >>> --=20 >>> Tools-arch mailing list >>> Tools-arch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 --Apple-Mail-6BA86128-849F-4D1F-9EEE-FAD80660109B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 9/04/2021, at 5:58 PM, Mark= Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFI think my concern here is t= hat the way this is phrased (e.g., with 'plugins'), it appears that we're go= ing to 'pick a winner' -- always a bad idea when it comes to editors and dev= elopers! -- and centre the work around that.

I'd like to see the emphasis on providing discrete, atomic functions in th= e most generic way possible, which can then accommodate adaptation to differ= ent ecosystems (e.g., various editors, web UIs, CLI, etc.). The Tools team m= ight even provide some of those adaptations, and might package it up in a wa= y that's easy for newcomers to consume, and might even promote that packagin= g so that they can find it more easily. But it should also be possible for o= thers to provide different adaptations, and we should facilitate that (e.g.,= by helping them promote them to the community).

= Does that make sense?

Yes a= nd I think we want the same goals but I don=E2=80=99t think we=E2=80=99re ta= lking about mutually exclusive solutions. 

Imagine w= e were to give people everything they wanted:
- ability to use XML= or Markdown or ?? end to end
- a single one-stop-shop tool and al= l the tools as separate command line tools, as separate web interfaces, as s= eparate plugins to their favourite editor, as separate automatable services&= nbsp;
- ability to integrate with GitHub, GitLab, Bitbucket, etc

Then could we do it and how could we do it?  I t= hink this is exactly the problem that APIs solve - we build and maintain a c= entral set of functionality that is exposed by API, we build plugins to a ch= osen tool to give the one-stop-shop, we build separate web interfaces on top= of those same APIs and we build separate CLI tools that call those APIs. If= others want to build a plug-in for their favourite editor then all they nee= d do is build calls to the API, nothing more. 

Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director



On 9 Apr 2021, at 3:2= 5 pm, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

I understand the concerns but this came through from multiple respondents= who consider our DIY, multi-tool approach to be a big barrier to participat= ion so I would really like us to think through the details before coming to a= view.

For example, I can see how we mig= ht achieve this using Atom as a base editor as that has XML, XSLT, schema va= lidation and version control already handled by existing plugins and us writ= ing new plugins for
= - data tracker submission/retrieval
- YANG validators
- conversion to TXT, PDF etc
- boilerplate insertion/update
- and so on

I= f those plugins are actually just lightweight clients of central APIs that d= eliver the heavy lifting then it becomes even easier.

Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director


On 9/04/2021, at 4:40 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>= wrote:

=EF=BB=BFThis seems to go again= st the 'small pieces loosely joined' philosophy of tool-making seen in our c= ommunity (and broader technical communities, such as Unix).

It also seems to reinforce the centrality of the tools t= eam -- i.e., if I want to get any leverage in the ecosystem (e.g., with a fo= rmat validator), I have to write a plugin for the tools team, rather than wr= iting something that merely operates on a format (see eg <https://github.= com/mnot/rfc-http-validate>). I don't think that's something we should be= doing.

Finally, writing a multi-OS GUI= tool to 'do everything' is NOT a small undertaking. I'd like to see a trend= towards smaller, more controlled tools, not bigger ones.
=
Cheers,


<= /blockquote>
On 9 Apr 2021, at 11:13 am, Jay Daley <j= ay@ietf.org> wrote:

=3D  Reco= mmendation
<= br>
Recommendation 10:  A= =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool should be investigated.

=3D  Commentary

By a =E2=80=98one-stop shop=E2=80=99 tool we meant a tool with the= following characteristics:

 &nbs= p;=E2=80=A2 GUI based, single tool that works on most OSs and allows an auth= or to do everything they need on I-D drafting/processing in that one place. <= /span>
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">

  =E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG interf= ace that hides the complexity of the underlying XML, in much the same way th= at any modern word processor does.  (This does not have to be the only i= nterface as some may want to work on the underlying XML).

=
  =E2=80=A2 Has a plugin mechanism so that a= ny I-D processing tools can be added in for direct invocation.

  =E2=80=A2 Interacts with the Datatrac= ker for submission and retrieval of I-Ds and associated metadata.
=

  =E2=80=A2 Interacts with =E2=80=98= official=E2=80=99 IETF GitHub repositories, including for the processing of i= ssues, pull requests and other collaboration features. (Also see recommendat= ion 13 below)

  =E2=80=A2 D= irectly supports the AUTH48 process.

= In order to produce such a tool, the various I-D processing tools would need= to be refactored to work as plugins, going back to the concept under recomm= endation 6 with them all implemented as APIs, supporting any variety of clie= nt.

Is this something the TAS Team wo= uld like to start the ball rolling on recognising that there would be lots o= f community discussion required?



--
<= /blockquote>
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">

-- <= br>
Tools-arch mailing list
Tools-arch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/tools-arch

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

--
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">
Tools-arch mailing l= ist
Tools-arch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/tools-arch
<= /span>
--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.m= not.net/

= --Apple-Mail-6BA86128-849F-4D1F-9EEE-FAD80660109B-- From nobody Sun Apr 18 18:17:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBE13A16BA for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=NrCVLYVT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Pjfw4XV2 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ltzNdpfuI8lM for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDC783A16B7 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B4F11DC8 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:17:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=V5uZTnMfKZSyP1JAm7DDIRaI6L697lT 7uDz/KW8WOPs=; b=NrCVLYVTAnIOqg4YZhSKTLb/tadXaYildTI2O/sDGjy3bYD JC3PxeWCnUDucxDURSyzeadPKN+vcOQPwIT1yuBOYxFPMg4hbcBckXnRzKW3AVE1 X6PhmnmJyJ6h4lRNAC/ZQUCu4ZC8wALlHq/krJb6X7JZtduJ5jIMVmpdZOwhxmu4 jwlXnHNY2YaPFpJzG9RQrHSejkeqP9xgYQ0YctS0YvUNjiU+78jh4Kwv2BeFhDoS PeWW2iF13s1DuPB6jnWiF4dWpnpAhIKV1MYzvQ5ZJ36bO/l4za6CmoTj7KoldPDF Cy1WwozId5rp6oFl0Wwns5p8ZPnfHDKWEzs6jLw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=V5uZTn MfKZSyP1JAm7DDIRaI6L697lT7uDz/KW8WOPs=; b=Pjfw4XV2KwoMwoGMn7/RTB 3Z5sF8yWRw1vyovHy/YxHEvhxI+iEMv+VT/tBOcVG7ciBJ8rQSmhL6CJkiE389DZ A1fTvKW8q0mWovyhH8AnRa7BmQdcCpOSW3JC40pfIS7f4vNmkMV1badA9qYD1rIC HEyTqOI1l3GiEfLkA5sU4GM/hf/+6TRPAFT8YKcdfv8K+D1S8tHV+BgZhWuJlgL1 fiTCE2YLPHKVaXZYi+/E1CH+02xbbDcw4gSrDqo3iO6nCsLgovSgBlsxM8jAaMzF 8hiEdxPPh6HG2c6eGxTeHG+UCz6bvQtAJ9ak+967ZuDAJE7ma5C9BmPEBXm/YQXg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddtvddgjeekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefhiedttdeviefhjeejgf evfeeuudfggfekveekheeugeegleevkeevkedthfeuieenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhf rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id DB6134E00E0; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:17:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-273-g8500d2492d-fm-20210323.002-g8500d249 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <6f8e5d8d-4fca-47ef-b608-ecf920d40064@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <72E3450F-0E88-46C4-B735-D6693C475BCB@mnot.net> <898A21CE-AA80-4AA9-AAC8-7230C27ABC79@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 11:17:18 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 01:17:56 -0000 On Fri, Apr 9, 2021, at 15:14, Mark Nottingham wrote: > I think I agree with Robert here, but I'd like to understand what's > driving towards centralisation. If there's some 'source of truth' > necessary, an API might make sense; however, my current mental model is > that the tools should operate on well-documented formats, which can > live in a variety of places (e.g., data tracker, my local disk, GitHub, > a server somewhere). I like that model, but I want to ensure that we all understand what that entails. Right now, we have a bunch of tools that are generally deployed as command-line utilities. In general, these take a file (or files) and a bunch of options. They produce a status code and output that might be directed to a file. We ship these in a variety of ways. I get xml2rfc using pip. I get kramdown-rfc2629 using gem. I get idnits and rfcdiff by downloading a tarball from tools.ietf.org. Other people don't bother with the getting part, they just use a web page. Others cases (rfcdiff for instance) effectively use scripted remote access to underlying web resources. That is largely good. We provide flexibility, but the overall complexity is low. A user that climbs the complexity curve from web page to remote access to command-line has a few minor hurdles to clear that we might help them with by documenting each tool better, but the overall shape of the system seems right to me. We manage these tools in different ways too. Most are individually maintained, and so are subject to whatever the individual maintainer prefers (GitHub more often than not). As far as centralization goes, what I would like to see is a deliberate decision to sponsor tools that will get additional resources. What that might mean is greater consistency of support (more updates, x.ietf.org hosting, help with fixing bugs), greater consistency of interface (at different levels), greater functionality (by paying for features to be added), or other things we might collectively value. Sponsorship might come with some modest conditions. For instance, if we believe that a particular tool is valuable enough to sponsor we might decide that sponsorship is conditional on: it being written in a language better suited to maintenance, or hosted somewhere more conducive to community input, or distributed using a more reliable platform, or that it gets a better test harness that can be automated (note: I don't know if any of these things are concretely problems; that would be something that would need to be assessed for each tool). From nobody Sun Apr 18 18:36:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C051A3A177A for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:36:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=3Me4x1q6; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=DI2ZEtZ/ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDipHX34vhHG for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E50123A177B for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 18:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466FB1EB7 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:36:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=FR9NAFXxo0+rZUL04UOPpTfp1ANOAc1 cQ+04J1U5za8=; b=3Me4x1q6Vk5BLMHegEjQto5PrNkQHvTCjbeweC3UNVmYTFh 3j+eqE4/TOwiQg2TIk3OWmiau1Gv0JacwLME48f8mFLVbJikFVSKPFI+Kdxr5VTT d3Pa9EDm1GEHNqImXEYFRneq8W47A3xwCVYLoLOCINA/zVwvjQ3JWvNkgHfucnhd sUuNNk8B/h6P1psyfqcI1k+1ULr9R77Cn5Vhq67El8SWvgvhZZSk3YrxiuxroA74 h3/SNS/mvAoCAjOVKvMbSDML1e96NNZnW38mp8PO6T82KXyjMxbQCCWX14ppiAnu XpP7gfGalst5OL9aogDZTGjQDW4TLQYkjhmzr0Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=FR9NAF Xxo0+rZUL04UOPpTfp1ANOAc1cQ+04J1U5za8=; b=DI2ZEtZ/oDBgupn85ham4X r7ORWMkDHtwCNItY6TkChzLaXHGxT+FLkk+un+b43u/55RAMeMelfx8mKHhHHSdk VgA5GSP6uEptAkTbGGdEDnkMXLeeSDUwWhidmHbq5sepghxc5KxHGuqjRPh9CL8w hM7oAbIxLlRMQf9nEDndFy4dYWk0qEQqDI8NHDZkQVLxhsq3Oq//HyMqI3nhSde6 DruMdTD8LJnIucexBAmpYQM5Ub+5IbmSPb1x0m8acCHNTKAGBWlH2iptaMjzArMf P6FgIl2+jdn1h6h+Wa0XVvg0nX+Bhtib4XHsynnpJkqKVhBo/80+6XOD5c7TnDgA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddtvddgkedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefghedvtedvvdevhfefke eiieehjeffvdfgkedvudfgleetkeejgeehffekleejkeenucffohhmrghinhepphihphhi rdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomh epmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 532944E00DF; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 21:36:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-273-g8500d2492d-fm-20210323.002-g8500d249 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <5108838f-b22f-41fc-a8ab-54bf7a34f3f0@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <19445DF8-707C-4A27-81FC-8672EA8BBE90@ietf.org> References: <99513940-7253-49B3-B06D-8B53E127ABF1@mnot.net> <19445DF8-707C-4A27-81FC-8672EA8BBE90@ietf.org> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 11:36:21 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 10: One-stop shop tool X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 01:36:55 -0000 On Fri, Apr 9, 2021, at 16:50, Jay Daley wrote: > Imagine we were to give people everything they wanted: > - ability to use XML or Markdown or ?? end to end > - a single one-stop-shop tool and all the tools as separate command > line tools, as separate web interfaces, as separate plugins to their > favourite editor, as separate automatable services > - ability to integrate with GitHub, GitLab, Bitbucket, etc My experience with these integrations is that they rot too fast to be useful long-term. At various times in my career I have used numerous integrated chains, but they all ultimately break down pretty quickly. For an enterprise, there is value in standardizing on a single integrated solution, but that requires deliberate, sustained effort. With <40 developers at one shop, the Eclipse integration we had was a huge productivity boost. But that was largely because the tool already provided such immense generic value for Java development that the incremental effort really paid off. We have two countervailing forces at work here: 1. The community that can't even decide what Markdown variant to use. Most even seem to prefer XML. I can't pretend to understand why. They certainly can't be expected to agree on an editor. 2. The value an integrated tool might provide is at best minimal. That is, the functions we might rely on are either generic to all text editors, or entirely bespoke (and therefore unlikely to be well-integrated). So it's all about cost-benefit. My sense is that integration work is unlikely to produce significant productivity gains. I tend to think that the sorts of tool that Mark has produced here in https://pypi.org/project/sf-rfc-validate/ is exactly the sort of thing we need more of. That is, something that takes a well-defined format and produces a succinct report. Linting tools like that are an area we could improve (with yang validation being another example; idnits is almost a counter-example as it aims to be all-encompassing and integrated, to its own detriment). Having more linters wouldn't be so bad. Speaking of which, we need a way to filter documents for sourcecode; we shouldn't need to build that functionality multiple times. There's a nice tool/library idea. There are also other unexplored areas, if we want to speculate. I've recently realized that a ctags-like tool might be worth building as well, which would lead to a lightweight, targeted integration for editors. From nobody Sun Apr 18 19:15:30 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 158593A18BF for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 19:15:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=lwS6xp47; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=eiYYi4EN Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Ui7NsV6pSHo for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 19:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 258C23A18BD for ; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 19:15:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69522167; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 22:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 18 Apr 2021 22:15:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=i 1emwCjfnlt1n7bVcoENxkTfj09KNia9Fw5l1RoOutI=; b=lwS6xp47QOBkoqTaK YD6NT2se4mjIifuSLFh2bRl7J+x/+8Q18XChcaYWUD0Rv4gfoH27BDWCeIdBZxRv 46hb91y7CEYdPsGBeSCMwDEOykPDU01r+x1U90d6BREsZVyaviNjAea8Kr8fcdsV Q+3NTTkTF7InQ0yI+jniRPr7k5CU1P14HDzNxRFSChf0befbTMbCP6YbhAuCXOce 8sARKqid5hQJ66fG1Rfa7V/pMvEjw4dWONstfs++MLEWSaghsS+y1YIscncgqOnT WfgeJ7GDEEBSqYiAfgZAuADI8AmVeibW87Hb88zTV+7LRYBjeGWCFnURPxq+T2sK 0/L/w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=i1emwCjfnlt1n7bVcoENxkTfj09KNia9Fw5l1RoOu tI=; b=eiYYi4ENgVQ+YFCsn2fuSEiFqhxBwtTmV1owAHb+rKCFma28zofLHwONh +6lC7BIsRoXKTas/uZ+zJKwhE8G8jI1mdSVnWmiKcqybeTZ7qeDGLkOmggSheWXB gohfaGWOu7hLVjkZ69R9EWOxfine/yKh1BTojJrtkqD45+hnaSFFegZ+dsNwzpAH fQEM7OETd/Iiif2Gl5e+RVyRthMljEePFcgIEuMdhPxuB3F2Wwg4K6M6eQGBRoRW /m2NTNE7fzWaVncdqq2/cd44HaHHanZffK6XEbb4hOuJknCayaB3gA3rRh2ORi9+ jpdmPmLG1Ljo3VdGNYh31nkkx/jXQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddtvddgleduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpedutefgvedvheehudduvedtgedugeduueegveekieekvddvfefffeegiedugfej tdenucffohhmrghinhepphihphhirdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepuddule drudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehm rghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from marks-air.mnot.net (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3BD551080057; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 22:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <5108838f-b22f-41fc-a8ab-54bf7a34f3f0@www.fastmail.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 12:15:16 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <99513940-7253-49B3-B06D-8B53E127ABF1@mnot.net> <19445DF8-707C-4A27-81FC-8672EA8BBE90@ietf.org> <5108838f-b22f-41fc-a8ab-54bf7a34f3f0@www.fastmail.com> To: Martin Thomson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 10: One-stop shop tool X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 02:15:29 -0000 > On 19 Apr 2021, at 11:36 am, Martin Thomson wrote: >=20 > I tend to think that the sorts of tool that Mark has produced here in = https://pypi.org/project/sf-rfc-validate/ is exactly the sort of thing = we need more of. That is, something that takes a well-defined format = and produces a succinct report. Linting tools like that are an area we = could improve (with yang validation being another example; idnits is = almost a counter-example as it aims to be all-encompassing and = integrated, to its own detriment). Having more linters wouldn't be so = bad. Just to pop up a level -- we also need to a reasonable, fair, and = accountable way to decide when/if such tools are funded. E.g., AIUI = we've invested non-trivial amounts of money into the YANG toolset, but = that only serves a very specialised part of the community. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Apr 19 11:04:18 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938C13A3D17 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 11:04:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.05 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.05 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Jgm0kPYk; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=gFCAulOV Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UhoIS-K7oJcn for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 11:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C82273A3D15 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 11:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5679 invoked from network); 19 Apr 2021 18:04:08 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=162c.607dc618.k2104; bh=dqTJ+yxOO9Y/pnCWE1j+/3B815ghtsDliCTQj8320lk=; b=Jgm0kPYkxXYsmUCEje+kGInReYh+0GJMgVz/OyRIz8+lS1U9fydRKg6/5GnsjzrYIYNIBW0SjBGD+G/bFH2o3awwAtsS2zxT5fJy3RaaSzmfXHicVZN5ywalufRZ4OvBnT/4Q7nGuJzbsv8k2znhBf7npcjzz0nfib2NCU+RrRM2t5jX1FSeFYhiXx9l2xAEQw0sNm6BoPyAyy73IyODcZhfHXPbs9Q7ucN1izdyOMNYij3lrXHyD4waUox3q372HzG5/iP4WsjFYDX6+cpSGoSctdAqOU/oJ+EpTmQeuvN9rOYk32x+CDT3VYWE8dWHVlI+XOT36wpm0zr3HHgMyg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=162c.607dc618.k2104; bh=dqTJ+yxOO9Y/pnCWE1j+/3B815ghtsDliCTQj8320lk=; b=gFCAulOVPLe95emMYACmfCVtA+LEVQ7xdAN6RVTK3dhiJCeKF7wYw2vuOF6hSc3Moec8xuIs5Ou7acJD40t2i4dX2eh42N7Iyuh9G+31at6CHxenvx8FwmdLebE0osePea5nI8+5hzUT0JgRyxDlbJWiVApOccsf7nrRiy9QyJSuPs65oS6Nw0ZArG+KF2rDcblZReJdKEs3waN9NPeNzExz25qs9+EcEKqjQYRu0jcZbkis4Rsh/PRhFLN3iGOFKQONlNmQG9cA9+n6JoNrbhi/9yjKq8CloH0A0zSgj01DOjNmMbdw8lMi+Bo54BTlZquHSI1fNIzgMyRfBQlPzQ== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 19 Apr 2021 18:04:08 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9A75173A9277; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 14:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: 19 Apr 2021 14:04:07 -0400 Message-Id: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-arch@ietf.org Cc: mt@lowentropy.net In-Reply-To: <6f8e5d8d-4fca-47ef-b608-ecf920d40064@www.fastmail.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 18:04:17 -0000 It appears that Martin Thomson said: >I like that model, but I want to ensure that we all understand what that entails. Right now, we have a bunch of tools that are generally >deployed as command-line utilities. In general, these take a file (or files) and a bunch of options. They produce a status code and output >that might be directed to a file. > >We ship these in a variety of ways. I get xml2rfc using pip. I get kramdown-rfc2629 using gem. I get idnits and rfcdiff by downloading a >tarball from tools.ietf.org. Other people don't bother with the getting part, they just use a web page. Others cases (rfcdiff for instance) >effectively use scripted remote access to underlying web resources. > >That is largely good. We provide flexibility, but the overall complexity is low. I cannot agree. We have a bunch of tools each of which work differently, and are very difficult to install if you don't happen to be an experienced Linux or Unix user. Installing tarballs on Windows machines is nearly impossible, and even on Linux or Macs I've had people tell me they gave up trying to install xml2rfc because something failed mysteriously, probably incompatible library versions or colliding fonts. In some cases there are web versions, but in too many the web versions are out of date or don't provide all of the features of the command line version. We need to shrink the number of ways that the tools work to a small enough set that we can describe and maintain them. R's, John From nobody Mon Apr 19 19:14:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118A03A0ADE for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:14:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=sjBD9n1r; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=ln0QEb0E Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ytpxjs5oCxhU for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9E2D3A0AF3 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0F55C0090; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:14:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=l TCGtEsihXPMuHt2YwKD6zyM0KVyqzkGtsJeMN+l4Tw=; b=sjBD9n1rz4Z0n+k94 IOEVgRWtHZukon9p0YMEVnakCqa0uBqawEGcmPAXPASVCjuxreSvnssEX0F/tuZe 0FEhDjkDymsmoRZsUvhl+/btWCjeFdAV/3IH83eoFA+n2Od95wwnvieuo/gfJrWM KMQs7tXaJtF/pNzpO1ZuSH0GHTGViAt/e3OTqZuFYZ4vCXZQP0WfJ+hZ2q0DYcJ9 P9N4WjpX7n0TxOSCK5RTxGynZNg6oQdirMCcuuX5cxVfdsgQ0a3+pkpRr8P0ViB6 TBx7l5bRrL7AYcQxxSZ3sslFXqg87tQ9GjGy/Lqp0WZ+1B4q/rR0RRh+BU+q722v CT0Zw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=lTCGtEsihXPMuHt2YwKD6zyM0KVyqzkGtsJeMN+l4 Tw=; b=ln0QEb0EJJ6UERj6DmoRS7tn2+z0g5bI0i8iOETHsw2TfvQLub4VNOpa2 fohPjTRuMEaCY0IcOBi5rGCUUOZN4yjUeCYQnoI9dMsMWDEnshQV04tM6XSH6W/H IMlc9zE2nkuPG6+JC8j11j2djqg3xBgRmi6tGj6eKYYZr1mGiDRKb3B7HZBfaOK2 uAq1HiO8SOtW+hBAvkwJhQEZCPBw749EzArF76NhJaFSx15F+w99GkrxU8ryBlxs OHXCpjvg0yBNRllEesRBI6jYjvg7sI9BhlkRLeHwuaohPQQUbesX8zDF+yBSpmUF tkYkK+5o4SLluEEWogAGoGPlP2GcA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddthedgheeiucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutdehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueet teenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvd ehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehm nhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from marks-air.mnot.net (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 41894108005F; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 12:14:06 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org, Martin Thomson Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> To: John Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 02:14:20 -0000 > On 20 Apr 2021, at 4:04 am, John Levine wrote: >=20 > I cannot agree. We have a bunch of tools each of which work > differently, and are very difficult to install if you don't happen to > be an experienced Linux or Unix user. Installing tarballs on Windows > machines is nearly impossible, and even on Linux or Macs I've had > people tell me they gave up trying to install xml2rfc because > something failed mysteriously, probably incompatible library versions > or colliding fonts. Commercial and Open Source Python applications are distributed as = binaries or as standalone distributions all the time successfully, and = are marketed to much less technical audiences than the IETF. > In some cases there are web versions, but in too > many the web versions are out of date or don't provide all of the > features of the command line version. That seems like a problem that can be easily solved with some = operational discipline. > We need to shrink the number of ways that the tools work to a small > enough set that we can describe and maintain them. Nothing above leads me to believe that we need to fundamentally revisit = how our tools relate to each other.=20 Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Apr 19 19:32:36 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49083A0E1B for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=3RG6Bwg9; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=qiP5Xlt9 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4rjt2Pl7MqZ for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD52D3A0E1A for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33929 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2021 02:32:26 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=8487.607e3d3a.k2104; bh=Yo95hYSIhAnaM1a+X2RgT++No3/KrqaOTsn5ZsH157U=; b=3RG6Bwg99ZjpQfoBiPxjF9icq1vBjsvhzaY/ezcqsPtAr/N7sJTC7pdMNA4igP+Olt9q1aicq86D/wPsnqu4BzF+ixY7CrlsianFum0d4RjFz7WnBmCvxf5VPRWhZOmhhXweatn05PXbEf+5129ntRjmV4hAZkub2zQ4qU5pYrh1eoptmLdAzahXHsF1d6laDcjeq/LdfjNO5byLt9DGcTtYRJp7gQAyceqZT22TD+xv46Ea3v8XBwmTdUEjaHa3DG2oWZlCV/rhHh6kQDcCfiVPJyZ7GoU1amV+MfN9r5ssU89U69OgmHNMTusFWr8BVH6lQJAlsJOiX+8LpYqYiw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=8487.607e3d3a.k2104; bh=Yo95hYSIhAnaM1a+X2RgT++No3/KrqaOTsn5ZsH157U=; b=qiP5Xlt9cHB1Fj8WduIYhKTXRQ/NMx1GbPPTbM6MfKINj7Vqu52vrTOcAcEWstZAEwqqxYL6j5NPEDXSQb76PkT5U49985kXsnmc41VQaFojwpZpd8caGywE3ZhQ8qV94hSZG4ABAGGeKpeiWliltCj162Ht9ycHlgJpKAvGhGjXS2iX8TbMr7WMRILRXXnDKKuNqHMJR5Ei1Fs1+Nbc0ecQ/dUQUduqfL0ICBXeFzx7EAuqrKSSahFQ7LvedG3rG+OIA8NzcMMxb6HZoo1TUo7aLdTipaPIJU+jdTYD9F+RLqyUxLqZ/m/yM9RrAi4Xfht/L/Hxs3vZYhl1egGy0A== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 20 Apr 2021 02:32:26 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8724573AF27C; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 333D673AF25E; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: 19 Apr 2021 22:32:26 -0400 Message-ID: <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Mark Nottingham" Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 02:32:35 -0000 >> I cannot agree. We have a bunch of tools each of which work >> differently, ... > Commercial and Open Source Python applications are distributed as > binaries or as standalone distributions all the time successfully, and > are marketed to much less technical audiences than the IETF. Sure, but that requires a much more sophisticated and disciplined software development environment than we have. I'll let the various volunteers chime in here and say how hard they think it'd be to ship versions of their stuff for, say, Windows, Mac, and some version of Linux. > Nothing above leads me to believe that we need to fundamentally revisit how our tools relate to each other. If you want standalone distributions for multiple platforms we sure do. A large part of the appeal of Jay's proposal that we move to APIs and front ends is that the main program that exposes the API only has to work in one environment, and we can have relatively small generic front ends for each platform and for a web service. AWS does this with a command line front end that drives all of their various services. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Mon Apr 19 19:39:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D893A0E5D for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:39:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=INZW2N25; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=MW2VDMVP Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N5Y8nIcURxUG for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BA0F3A0E53 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 19:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627745C00D3; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:39:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=c 8RJQsMoRvmHgmYO/7TXc3xmSDsTlI1jn0iVNt8R73Y=; b=INZW2N25+Xk4YrmnG JjNqw01Wcttcfr20KuFWYnhUsUcTYLMK2nGjdUmN3YXftsUuNbB1ZRjWAw7ZHor1 AHqpdXoy2hYQDn3QSIeXjmq479DAUtJteXwk/olVq6l+uXNP7ZxejFso6wSKDZjk 1di/9RrAGHudymIcOUafqfxR11llq8JYGS+jW89Tc8DteH3VKjLqQoBZ9vAdbNT6 pJ0ISomvHv0bQART1WoGNjd+f4k5kHL+FEgCFoEyn3Lw3hL70AyxgEl2mKZUnNWi VgUkgY8EpKImBBp4NtUf822AlGYpRo/4ifkhln0fZvyPHwvhMuUadNsklEsSedOZ GfiGA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=c8RJQsMoRvmHgmYO/7TXc3xmSDsTlI1jn0iVNt8R7 3Y=; b=MW2VDMVPee87XtInyJv6ZTdiYpM4pUywAgFnt8XIOPNuAqazjQrMVSdrJ H2BfKF3AASc+hk9+fq7III0rDrMvA2i2//5P4dIAXZ/UZ7vipptLh2Auao34Cyol o21q0XzLTEzyBAbu+yB/P/IDkMxFBWCcnFZ+UDEiUM5VR+l6D2EVyqa2Iorzpnad Sv4Xx4BFLUM+7qWYu+EwQIf8AQp7M4g3/X7/Rh+sO9o0lqmhkyRh28CKavWGTkhf 0JJ8YMYPk1Hrhm1hWoLznzczBIIzhnPXss9ud0OSUuX30bipWZ2TdcfBl27oJZi4 2lOcAEe0aSmukiFj2acTtm/pWEbWg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddthedgieduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutdehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueet teenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvd ehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehm nhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from marks-air.mnot.net (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 759DE1080067; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 22:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 12:38:53 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> To: John R Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 02:39:07 -0000 On 20 Apr 2021, at 12:32 pm, John R Levine wrote: >=20 >>> I cannot agree. We have a bunch of tools each of which work >>> differently, ... >=20 >> Commercial and Open Source Python applications are distributed as = binaries or as standalone distributions all the time successfully, and = are marketed to much less technical audiences than the IETF. >=20 > Sure, but that requires a much more sophisticated and disciplined = software development environment than we have. I'll let the various = volunteers chime in here and say how hard they think it'd be to ship = versions of their stuff for, say, Windows, Mac, and some version of = Linux. >=20 >> Nothing above leads me to believe that we need to fundamentally = revisit how our tools relate to each other. >=20 > If you want standalone distributions for multiple platforms we sure = do. >=20 > A large part of the appeal of Jay's proposal that we move to APIs and = front ends is that the main program that exposes the API only has to = work in one environment, and we can have relatively small generic front = ends for each platform and for a web service. AWS does this with a = command line front end that drives all of their various services. If we can't even maintain a 'sophisticated and disciplined software = development environment', I have no idea how we're going to make such = services available -- especially when the IETF's current services often = struggle to be available and performant. Also, the *point* of AWS's = services are that they're in the cloud; I still don't have a good answer = as to why transforming some XML into HTML needs to be. Let me be clear -- moving to a service-oriented architecture has = bedevilled the industry for about two decades now; it is not simple, and = it is not somehow magically easier than shipping software. Teams in many = companies are still trying to figure out how to do it best, and they = have substantially greater resources available than we do. This group was convened to get expert input on the tools. Mine is to = strongly urge you (Jay) not to pursue this path. -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Apr 20 08:10:39 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6B63A2774 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:10:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=EWzkHZoY; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=xQoFzJ68 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jjri7uysetXi for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BF363A2773 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 08:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32444 invoked from network); 20 Apr 2021 15:10:30 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=7eb9.607eeee6.k2104; bh=7a//L0+jePARAJotDRIqVF4bCSL+y+VBmQEHzcfvRtg=; b=EWzkHZoYLWZYaDKHB7u0ae5mfm5dSR8eVf3GF1vMOzskWkp0r8sK35JNlIcylBngzzW8zvKMFzfhvl4eR65PniHwuS13m5+J4a4H6QfnGVkAmhiqbBV2Wm6AObNNpCcwu4TeJbm7XBcoti1zOvYPsBkAANYZHTMbgwKh+Tx0NWCB8fMY+8KyKtG93U5yEGErWcnCWR6AxmzU67vnAM2IxtZJHHcVsSimDzeVs9XOsohkwnKv46yRv3E0AThiDRn4YkixLF6tsIGBOh+MXglGlrOs1oQ7Hd6Af+CguVOIVWUEsLNfdzNfl1jL5gSP10us0hczkmbjmBcUnJMd9OVoSA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=7eb9.607eeee6.k2104; bh=7a//L0+jePARAJotDRIqVF4bCSL+y+VBmQEHzcfvRtg=; b=xQoFzJ68Zm8mLMLr81kfak6iiOEErbzSKDwoCb7DZkBuMyyawKVuK0Pzr6luVBrdJGJdQ5+gZKUmeV6YTtFkV8h45AJ8+3CtHHcspmW+k7WoACMrgMJTViVDcSA7udxjZ5DauCqz3sfxLBS2cCkV2ubdLadQj1dY3IA9DwjyV07F/gmWPlDHw50EoNmp0l/LKOFwY8fPsZB5+6EPF5VzObWFRp/pTjMHOb+HVM1AYJoy66rHuvllMu9pM2SI9udKukevqBV6+tkhu2c0b20eusT3j2NNZCB4hc2r6YgTPtHnNotsQtJg8pOLrPWoK1m58Wn2PZm3myY/pdnUtlQe2Q== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 20 Apr 2021 15:10:29 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6440073B6508; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 11:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0117A73B64EA; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 11:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: 20 Apr 2021 11:10:28 -0400 Message-ID: <499d5ed6-ccb-742a-7e1b-396e1e7f35b3@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Mark Nottingham" Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 15:10:37 -0000 > If we can't even maintain a 'sophisticated and disciplined software > development environment', I have no idea how we're going to make such > services available -- especially when the IETF's current services often > struggle to be available and performant. Also, the *point* of AWS's > services are that they're in the cloud; I still don't have a good answer > as to why transforming some XML into HTML needs to be. I'm now completely confused about what you want us to do. Assuming we agree that we want to have tools that work reliably on the platforms that people are likely to use (which seems to be Windows, Mac, and linux) how do we get there? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Thu Apr 22 18:32:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE9F3A1EDC for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:32:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=C9Mv8Lgv; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=mYrq0vBG Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fw9WtoUSvuDx for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE5E43A1EDB for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02D052049; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:32:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=k 7cCVtuot+FeTsGbVL4y5nqSEqTAOJfCmnAYz6XvRTs=; b=C9Mv8LgviOfItke/V mjRFwxSD+SdJ85tjCg2ZMStkTgbK46QJfS13qANUbTirrxYQq97cu4+aK3lFJI2l e+XsqB1ebwBgf8qM5FWBsIycH91j9tqUOUvMNhGpZOaq6m7Gw58naHcpRVgsnBKF V+YiOn3Fnc2TnK8D90EGTuOzCLjsjqIFPYupBG9koT0ucw3pfY7P59dE6cScFvBn arabUR9Vkgcob1glIWJq4w9I+A2evbcEEjV2dKLn43hUIIVTo9rTkSVzLY/qgzEc ChUW02SoAkVa78LyclsHZnHoi//5t8amKRx7hmomnpk/H/EhZ2PlFlvUaEEBsQR2 nQ+PA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=k7cCVtuot+FeTsGbVL4y5nqSEqTAOJfCmnAYz6XvR Ts=; b=mYrq0vBGXN7ywyVnYUCwic/1Xe/SrtNF+Json2018CNJvguZgReoVO+CK Ysre60yIyr1QX1M3mmfOIdB8q7q1hfYJlRcVSoH9a1wbAHZMOIC+NHwWL9mqUonH eP5CFZFOyhtth7y7YKjD3fZZo2p6PFY+NR9aQyN26Mb3IyBgNCMWsnHG+ku3F0uy DBWc7ZFzxbBFGIOp81MFdJIarWcmV32CkUSMNz+lmEClZ6GQ9XBK3wn9WJaitWfC 6VXLZKrCTUwu2s1oTtF7Eqmef3uOh4KU0XIkeGuDklQ1rDBxm/GjICg/AWgfrHEd RypUPIWBROSxG8GxdZuxvPrgjrhpA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvdduuddggeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeevffffhfduteevvefhueffieegtdeutdehffeltefffedttdeggeejheeiueet teenucffohhmrghinhepmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppeduudelrddujedrudehkedrvd ehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehm nhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from marks-air.mnot.net (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 4C28724005C; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <499d5ed6-ccb-742a-7e1b-396e1e7f35b3@taugh.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 11:32:39 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> <499d5ed6-ccb-742a-7e1b-396e1e7f35b3@taugh.com> To: John R Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 01:32:58 -0000 > On 21 Apr 2021, at 1:10 am, John R Levine wrote: >=20 >> If we can't even maintain a 'sophisticated and disciplined software = development environment', I have no idea how we're going to make such = services available -- especially when the IETF's current services often = struggle to be available and performant. Also, the *point* of AWS's = services are that they're in the cloud; I still don't have a good answer = as to why transforming some XML into HTML needs to be. >=20 > I'm now completely confused about what you want us to do. Assuming we = agree that we want to have tools that work reliably on the platforms = that people are likely to use (which seems to be Windows, Mac, and = linux) how do we get there? By improving the tools we have -- including how they're delivered, = documented and supported. -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Apr 22 19:23:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D11353A2160 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:23:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=fAIJwDxp; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=quJTPh2y Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E0_lmKcb-c6K for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44A183A215E for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 71724 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2021 02:23:26 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=11827.60822f9e.k2104; bh=VW6bA5kKSnuU2oH1u0QOGf2ZodldCclQiQfgh1jFI1I=; b=fAIJwDxpcQrVtQOMnT737pW1yMh5Hf50qm6ShxYkDYxqrpPe5Mdok00tdiuEW+pnSSR79MUwFEzE1eo6DA5FrLSIRKmSrcAqkFIYCF/SXA7lbTleR3NtOj6A4ur1miJa4doHSW4kc9kH8Im7wNNxlockF3slpR5htzXGbH2VLRQMHYTnYfSq3bSwMKTb5gq3UNZCqhWrObXpdEKjqpc4sKShW0+GUz/dZkpm5Zi3+gRQCFqCOc1jQVUzwPhkYYC/LU0VTXcCjEJo4uH6xOFLffEC4K8P0u+AlPnnSV2i4VaM0zBW6zhNW0KfmIEu29cwPNvcKfsfScmqYEISwSIQKw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type; s=11827.60822f9e.k2104; bh=VW6bA5kKSnuU2oH1u0QOGf2ZodldCclQiQfgh1jFI1I=; b=quJTPh2y/p1zSrBtdk8xCP++cy/S0NYF9gDvLvMcJ1GNkCT2BVQQRJ3nvmvMMyLZACdt53daAAaJlAh9WvtFixhOZPXVPDuN4kxLs8ZB9l/qCBGqqO+v87BIZDaH30SPI0dpZmwuXRK4Cpg531hSKrr5ubp8qDoFLvvi+c4VC+2H+1IBcqVcA2kpusMkQzuSD8yg9bmy+PEWuNLEP2trnQcBClCF7vfR9nEfCodY31UMU73XsvyqTFnaH9uAYiuHaJFUPjxIm+XyQkoDjRss/14p3ei7aDBNd53C7uWgoX1i6P8d9F2OxDSOw+H/4bBG8PUQLyna2b0eUnr4hkrA7A== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 23 Apr 2021 02:23:26 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id D68E173E3247; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 22:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ary.qy (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF36A73E3229; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 22:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: 22 Apr 2021 22:23:24 -0400 Message-ID: <58bf8e20-6b48-cde4-b9a-b4a6da652bf@taugh.com> From: "John R Levine" To: "Mark Nottingham" Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org X-X-Sender: johnl@ary.qy In-Reply-To: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> <499d5ed6-ccb-742a-7e1b-396e1e7f35b3@taugh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:23:36 -0000 >> I'm now completely confused about what you want us to do. Assuming we agree that we want to have tools that work reliably on the platforms that people are likely to use (which seems to be Windows, Mac, and linux) how do we get there? > > By improving the tools we have -- including how they're delivered, documented and supported. I was hoping for something more concrete. For example, should we be able to provide each tool as a native installable package on the major platforms? If so, do you have an estimate of how much work that would involve? (Try installing xml2rfc on Windows to see how painful the current setup is.) Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Sun Apr 25 19:07:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6573A1052 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 19:07:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=IBrY++BN; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=n2O2fxAB Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yfi7j7h-Arky for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 19:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F1DB3A1056 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 19:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5245C008E; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 22:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 25 Apr 2021 22:07:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=H LXkZaswq9wIjZSynX0o0vFwq0dmI4S2/dhSDmfzym0=; b=IBrY++BNiPNvt3NE7 FPAYVudLwnxT1S1gS1VtBhkPjn2fie8G24xOAxdABlIpepdMk/XblzJGo2Qz50H3 iQ/40J1RWIp2OJcjgCdO9uLcNFvXYjZCQbhWepcwvvZg9P6/WAJMBiEF3nTvOlZl yNEF5wCEqaVFn4biYF+eK6eZU3R8JllaSPFFdd/QxofphF4i7HIChYX4OcmAz2oP HTYRNOM/rY8BvUNxcblimGOOi4P30YOjkO45kArgGS1ZvZeTnaG/SRWRYmNpXWe8 5FmY+eIs0H7PejFaxBblOywdebefGWS8zwvbAUAjIBXAy9SYPGvZq2rBBaEKjixr SSyfg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=HLXkZaswq9wIjZSynX0o0vFwq0dmI4S2/dhSDmfzy m0=; b=n2O2fxABikx76zwL6QqY8xVqC7cWzioyZ3ISZ05z25a8l3YVwq1kenv67 37oHzuv63jeAp1Reo+CU4+aMw3tYtXbS+GELveii3HIN8K4rByESsVowJfPrpOoo n2EGoAbJJzr65jvmK/atgInC29oBlxUlETN0o7cNZ9RdeJF5EN7rCPxBejeM1LhU JRbRL4E6lbqYE082PYVW6KrNJ2aw7skznBlApi5vZNV58mIWdrO0YLSrBMszMWLW VAk1Vw2iDArkf72T0ZxwSyinGx3QYQFEHrhQOF125w2jY1M12OxN7o3pdJuaWXMb zIHDAd9qZNiHXmBJam/aKNXAIm1OQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddujedgheegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtth gvrhhnpeeiieegieejleeitdeijeeiveehffdvffehleekueegveehfeegjeefveegfeet veenucffohhmrghinhepphihthhhohhnqdhguhhiuggvrdhorhhgpdhrohhsshgrnhhtrd hnvghtpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehl uhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnh hothdrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from marks-air.mnot.net (119-17-158-251.77119e.mel.static.aussiebb.net [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 46FAC24005E; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 22:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <58bf8e20-6b48-cde4-b9a-b4a6da652bf@taugh.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:07:07 +1000 Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> <499d5ed6-ccb-742a-7e1b-396e1e7f35b3@taugh.com> <58bf8e20-6b48-cde4-b9a-b4a6da652bf@taugh.com> To: John R Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 02:07:21 -0000 > On 23 Apr 2021, at 12:23 pm, John R Levine wrote: >=20 >>> I'm now completely confused about what you want us to do. Assuming = we agree that we want to have tools that work reliably on the platforms = that people are likely to use (which seems to be Windows, Mac, and = linux) how do we get there? >>=20 >> By improving the tools we have -- including how they're delivered, = documented and supported. >=20 > I was hoping for something more concrete. >=20 > For example, should we be able to provide each tool as a native = installable package on the major platforms? If so, do you have an = estimate of how much work that would involve? My role here, as I understand it, is not to provide estimates or = detailed plans -- it's to provide high-level input to the architecture = (note: architecture) of our tools stack. Jay, if I misunderstand that, = please correct me. > (Try installing xml2rfc on Windows to see how painful the current = setup is.) Well, about 20 seconds on DuckDuckGo found: =20 """ =E2=80=9CFreezing=E2=80=9D your code is creating a single-file = executable file to distribute to end-users, that contains all of your = application code as well as the Python interpreter. Applications such as =E2=80=98Dropbox=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98Eve Online=E2=80=99= , =E2=80=98Civilization IV=E2=80=99, and BitTorrent clients do this. The advantage of distributing this way is that your application will = =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D, even if the user doesn=E2=80=99t already = have the required version of Python (or any) installed. On Windows, and = even on many Linux distributions and OS X, the right version of Python = will not already be installed. """ -- There are other approaches if that isn't suitable, e.g.: = https://cyrille.rossant.net/create-a-standalone-windows-installer-for-your= -python-application/ -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Apr 27 14:50:58 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B3E3A220E for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:50:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=PggZoto7; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=L6fstXQO Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ofKupHQYucO0 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CABB33A220A for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:50:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 43354 invoked by uid 100); 27 Apr 2021 21:50:48 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:cleverness; s=a958.60888738.k2104; i=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=b0POUJ5y7RsXsRPSJeecble/GR4+zzau7QD+C77bErA=; b=PggZoto7eIjzD5pK+I08hrDam6eOvgiqhTpkbNI/ZH+nLwLWpql8vqYq2CqJM/CwoZ+IK50brjrV8cmqScHPB6iQTNl5PhO3+0OrKju6wDM1CEdyMgl7g7oIUJlIxXRViRLoNRNr28RWcPeGRFGlJUWzEL+I+pItprNUaVgTr2z+Ajj4Y+EBjex+xe5TAf+35OWfYu7llh5sSYw+0mqp0nRra2shFGZayJs2Q45MAvkPujnx0I8KhhRWdmKUi1tcdSaukvlFL99IREzugeYBseWx6AsWFB/wSp5JiojhYYmB2u/MSEP/kO1wEilzumZSLkRe0vIA3467Ni3yW44iwA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:cleverness; s=a958.60888738.k2104; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=b0POUJ5y7RsXsRPSJeecble/GR4+zzau7QD+C77bErA=; b=L6fstXQOjMSXUmMRQP3+RkbTn0ZbySw/ST95CyWtkMQPY+OgI/7Em2OjT7vioFJXkChUXosu6UFiWseO0wIrZPzzuV+kruyFn9uJF2H+2uy/VOEgPy3tQt5lDy+I/r+UvWH57JCL/bdRmwY0kXVrh2ErA4wXepxRM5TQq6lrM9Sa5JuglMHOQSUnw+S+77p9/TQSQqYod5VOsS6BF9DXn4u9XpgBq8Bg2HiHvcPu7u/SX1Se/KsI7X4pngSbwQnRgDbxcR+qQjnNwud5thiJiPhh9nmSxSBzDb34eiaevbuEZF9EGqV1GT6XeDE7NtYIc9vozXIozen/1FnVU2+izg== Date: 27 Apr 2021 17:50:47 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: tools-arch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> <499d5ed6-ccb-742a-7e1b-396e1e7f35b3@taugh.com> <58bf8e20-6b48-cde4-b9a-b4a6da652bf@taugh.com> Cleverness: None detected MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="3168237118-776421077-1619560247=:33269" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 21:50:57 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --3168237118-776421077-1619560247=:33269 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Sun, 25 Apr 2021, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>>> I'm now completely confused about what you want us to do. Assuming we= agree that we want to have tools that work reliably on the platforms that = people are likely to use (which seems to be Windows, Mac, and linux) how do= we get there? >>> >>> By improving the tools we have -- including how they're delivered, docu= mented and supported. ... > Well, about 20 seconds on DuckDuckGo found: > =E2=80=9CFreezing=E2=80=9D your code is creating a single-file executable= file to distribute to end-users, ... Well, OK, we could probably do that give or take the detail that frozen=20 executables need for the user's machine to have a C compiler installed to= =20 use some of its libraries, and it would bundle a bunch of other people's=20 libraries with licenses incompatible with ours, and the PDF libraries and= =20 fonts are enormous, over a gigabyte. But that misses the point -- once you've done that, you have a copy of=20 xml2rfc on your Windows machine or maybe your Mac you can run from a=20 command line to render a file of XML into HTML or PDF or text. But the=20 Windows users I know don't run stuff from the command line, and that=20 doesn't even matter because they don't have any way to prepare XML to=20 render. What they actually do is to use Joe Touch's MS Word template that lets=20 them type up a text draft, with boilerplate and page headers and such.=20 When they submit it, the RPC exports it as text and manually adds all of=20 the XML coding. Considering that the authors surely know what is a header= =20 and what is a paragraph or list as they create their drafts and probably=20 taggged much of it with Word styles, I'd say that's a pretty egregious=20 tool failure. The authors I've talked to feel rather strongly that they=20 like Word and are not interested in switching. In AUTH48 we're just as weak -- author reviews and corrections are tracked= =20 entirely by hand from email exchanges. In principle authors are supposed=20 to review the XML, in practice they rarely do, just some of the rendered=20 versions, and since we don't have an XML diff, even if you submitted XML,= =20 it's hard to tell what changed in the final version. We have tools that work OK for a subset of authors who work in particular= =20 ways, e.g, write in markdown or in Emacs with XML mode, and can write=20 makefiles to do the rendering. For everyone else, there's way too much=20 manual work and it's way too hard to proofread. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY "I dropped the toothpaste", said Tom, crestfallenly. --3168237118-776421077-1619560247=:33269-- From nobody Tue Apr 27 15:55:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A983A242E for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=mTNcD3vz; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=NgJobOyY Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1JKVTejXkyDt for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61A533A242A for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CC6FBA for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 18:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 27 Apr 2021 18:55:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=eIEKn2hzUbUdZn5JeJEncia/Zm/fbcL SOQ9pOr8YCEY=; b=mTNcD3vzpnTbMvdQ6q/wMe0Tku0prDpQQFdCufE8egERpVa NSX1N6Px/4O4fEte2emNMJBm89eJWN3So52q5uXI4BJky/TcbE/C9oDtLPx1ODrp Wy01BbQ2ulpbuL+q9uUzG2+UJOsgNSwxDv/nB/e0CQQX+xVCaXUytdDQUUj2UsFi 91eM3gZAjF2nhR75/QnW658fo/hqJ7fwrcNrJX4PyiSvdbSYzT5BPDOVJhCScb8G u6MgekzgCNEAXK9MaF1aQR248G3MSQdHK9v4/8+pMgHJhCPaDFOvLeUnTeQPtJtP dppWZ+dIdH8Bx9m/XwVW7jMfFUyR15HXTUQ+7SQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=eIEKn2 hzUbUdZn5JeJEncia/Zm/fbcLSOQ9pOr8YCEY=; b=NgJobOyY6zQN3D7n7HH9ed 7uGGSsejNiK9rexpeYgBcJUaSokBZnOXr8NBj4aElvdXn7ob6M7Ytv6L8SyL7YZV uqo0Rsg/UPm2zJrPlWsE6TehyUnTtrBKK/97ndwK7nntYPNbxVILEn5t45BccPTn E8AaKBgngswmi5lZLhn1sOIgN+WSGH93Zw3D1oW8cFPdMnqtlCtb5snIsb0YIhqo kyoPWgbuQDMxDGJllxIDC20tTPQz1SMvCx1F1ILVZXJnJ53asjVrssmVhCDtsddZ j4HUuNY4526qaFDDPezBzasCYN/YfyPOraSIgYiWOtoi8/4YfINbOTTZMyHIuNXw == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddvuddgudegucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeekteeuieektdekleefke evhfekffevvdevgfekgfeluefgvdejjeegffeigedtjeenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigv pedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvg ht X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 39DFF4E00B3; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 18:55:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-403-gbc3c488b23-fm-20210419.005-gbc3c488b Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <14f79701-027f-467d-92f7-5a6112e23487@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20210419180407.9A75173A9277@ary.qy> <9bf82641-8da7-5250-a148-7cc98cd4314c@taugh.com> <499d5ed6-ccb-742a-7e1b-396e1e7f35b3@taugh.com> <58bf8e20-6b48-cde4-b9a-b4a6da652bf@taugh.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2021 08:55:13 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 22:55:52 -0000 On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, at 07:50, John R Levine wrote: > What they actually do is to use Joe Touch's MS Word template that lets > them type up a text draft, with boilerplate and page headers and such. > When they submit it, the RPC exports it as text and manually adds all of > the XML coding. Considering that the authors surely know what is a header > and what is a paragraph or list as they create their drafts and probably > taggged much of it with Word styles, I'd say that's a pretty egregious > tool failure. The authors I've talked to feel rather strongly that they > like Word and are not interested in switching. That's a failure on our part then. That process is not a good result for anyone involved. It is relatively easy to use word to drive a process that produces XML. The one I used recently involves all the same command-line tools, but with a step that converts the word into markdown. It should be possible to build something more direct than that if there was enough interest. I'm not volunteering, but suggesting that some of the LLC tools budget might be pointed in that direction. > In AUTH48 we're just as weak -- author reviews and corrections are tracked > entirely by hand from email exchanges. In principle authors are supposed > to review the XML, in practice they rarely do, just some of the rendered > versions, and since we don't have an XML diff, even if you submitted XML, > it's hard to tell what changed in the final version. I just got an XML diff from the RPC in AUTH48. From nobody Wed Apr 28 18:12:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1C83A2806 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 18:12:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=RH+4Ho9j; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=aSb7b38B Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ypGB9GWCPgKo for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 18:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 523023A2804 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 18:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6013 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2021 01:12:31 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=1779.608a07ff.k2104; bh=kYSBJHZiV7dXuHfScfOT1WuAbYVPoXY3EmrvUVFJPU0=; b=RH+4Ho9jzxtKMlndqzZVtXuFww0oq7+FJi4f9ot6u3gJCgmLwXPeZaH3y35BsXvtmWxcbuAvBY3dGxWW4EX5bUgrUsJInq8jz9aGdw1hu577EdOGRKpi4N4YitMyW64Lpqk7eiOALpAiUj2UZ1vNkybA6FSNVojz8UvtFsCMmKQmRK2WIsubVVw0OcBnzcjI5gD+nOb4O6X5jJ+GpYEBk3Xai+QVdmku1ELlDdib3ZRGp6UyUgVTuCcK1cCgLIGDA4vDeAJqeNLYH3re0CPvQorVs/pwd/TnPyetzyUJnsPUBfSZ75intwQu5ZRMQOZRvEZOb3WMvs/sSEMdRK4okw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=1779.608a07ff.k2104; bh=kYSBJHZiV7dXuHfScfOT1WuAbYVPoXY3EmrvUVFJPU0=; b=aSb7b38BI49RQ+TMYI2PVG1bS3+khjBO5heP43Ht9iRm10tHkVme2y1xrDMFWcapAEcO1avwhPuKlLzfDLIZhfsMWRHVggzn5ExtLvZDW14FMuWLMS3U3/EhDpBejh1BbVZlxEVb51XZ2IZXMs1Sa8CiZUXtLTkwHFyqkWSk4gtDFWUqk3ZiW0LncRu8FhKDBLpk9c1luksfbTs15dWPzHFQ+PJR8NrRp99Hr4CXIHfI+lnJoKV8i0/IepcVV32cIWQ1Np24Z9p9PkSRgoOAeRGDCQWJiwBV1g/knngtudK6wvd5IXKkUHMCTqgIaqXJYOs+3I8zMf/mkAHpZmNb/g== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 29 Apr 2021 01:12:31 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id B128C49671E; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: 28 Apr 2021 21:12:30 -0400 Message-Id: <20210429011230.B128C49671E@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-arch@ietf.org Cc: mt@lowentropy.net In-Reply-To: <14f79701-027f-467d-92f7-5a6112e23487@www.fastmail.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 01:12:41 -0000 It appears that Martin Thomson said: >On Wed, Apr 28, 2021, at 07:50, John R Levine wrote: >> tool failure. The authors I've talked to feel rather strongly that they >> like Word and are not interested in switching. > >That's a failure on our part then. That process is not a good result for anyone involved. > >It is relatively easy to use word to drive a process that produces XML. The one I used recently involves all the same >command-line tools, but with a step that converts the word into markdown. In principle, it's straightfoward to translate Word files into other formats. (The file format is ISO/IEC 29500, a bunch of XML files in a zip archive. The bad news is that the spec is over 5,000 pages.) We could build tools to turn Word files into our dialect of markdown or XML, give or take some negotiations about stylesheets and markup conventions. On the other hand, I expect that people who don't want to write documents in markdown wouldn't be too enthusiastic about reviewing them in markdown, so before setting off on a project like this I would want to understand what's going to work for our Word users for the entire document production process. Maybe it's two way Word <-> markdown, maybe something else. We have a fair number of markdown users, so if we're building tools that deal with markdown, it would be nice if they found them useful, too. This is why I like Jay's approach of trying to figure out what our I-D authors actually do from writing to editing to AUTH48 to RFC, and see what the gaps are before trying to guess what tools to update or create. Also, how are people are likely to use them, e.g., do we want stuff that runs on our own PCs, or on a web site, or maybe build them with an API that can be driven either through the web or a command-line stub. R's, John > I just got an XML diff from the RPC in AUTH48. Are you sure it wasn't a text diff of the XML? That works OK if the incoming XML is in a format close to what the RPC uses, not so great otherwise. From nobody Wed Apr 28 19:58:08 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3D93A2BC2 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 19:58:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.82 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.82 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=KiGtlhmH; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=C0Wc3fzi Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4M4UAtg4jbfD for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 19:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF1D03A2BBE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 19:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624AF5C00E4; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 22:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap10 ([10.202.2.60]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 28 Apr 2021 22:58:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=qZX7qQRelFi38SgjwxQ/UPaF1ylq8Sq FCH0XoCtvFyg=; b=KiGtlhmHPgOh2v578KRIp9KLGRTIY/6VwnQ6C64SIFxY+8M HE7oQztEB4TZpls31ju/1PaZ5018dDXXabRFKaVAIgU92RKHjM1if4ta+05giumG aTwwHcXs+ZKxkcXIWVkdzx041drtgrmrwVXhL0KJ0jbc1Pyn8Ve4LZTBelrC4Yj1 YZQoEgVUjrUP0bK02qzSHpua32l3uAjiCUZn1AIj/ZtDesnAYF7o+KInBj7Uw1n4 4bedCoEAv7W+ymYpdBXggFn1invBXHldfMo8PJclVzfN/onYSJFlYT8RLOtjzKh4 AaBElfD4vbngTxlg4cjY4RpwLxPTGXt6O/wuFvg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=qZX7qQ RelFi38SgjwxQ/UPaF1ylq8SqFCH0XoCtvFyg=; b=C0Wc3fzi+Qgk37AhF/LfC4 ssxYiPnyQRT7i+amC7gVZvV2UKcoZWVACls/k0fT7QjXb+1mC8qBc5V0fDe+DR9I 53QmQX6ey4BzBpQgr8nHbVOIZD2AVI8xpFHUbl779Sit/GCGulSBVUT8kKFRhwM9 zsb67dukVMPe63+nPb/MGrvubTB13Vn8G2c1oamuC8ASVJUapGtxnpCWkinaGoUU 2RQrqpP4/Cgr1GM2WZBX/WX80dmP+tGwkXAWPmBnc7mbk7iUAjqo/3Kj9YBM7V/q exFZVTKvWV/azmZr/d5vLypBoK05wifWoxkUXjQOWetpfLBTKB1QmW7lsGlzxH9A == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddvfedgieefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesthdtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdforghr thhinhcuvfhhohhmshhonhdfuceomhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvtheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepkeetueeikedtkeelfeekvefhkeffvedvvefgkefgleeugfdvjeej geffieegtdejnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrh homhepmhhtsehlohifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id C29394E0126; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 22:57:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-403-gbc3c488b23-fm-20210419.005-gbc3c488b Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20210429011230.B128C49671E@ary.qy> References: <20210429011230.B128C49671E@ary.qy> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:57:41 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: "John R Levine" , tools-arch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 02:58:07 -0000 On Thu, Apr 29, 2021, at 11:12, John Levine wrote: > In principle, it's straightfoward to translate Word files into other > formats. (The file format is ISO/IEC 29500, a bunch of XML files in a > zip archive. The bad news is that the spec is over 5,000 pages.) > We could build tools to turn Word files into our dialect of > markdown or XML, give or take some negotiations about stylesheets > and markup conventions. Sounds good. We probably need to stop saying "build" though. I used code that I found on a website and it worked nicely. My sense is that these tools just cherry pick a very narrow set of things, so it should be possible to re-tread the path they have taken, but I haven't seen any need to do that. > This is why I like Jay's approach of trying to figure out what our I-D > authors actually do [...] I thought that the survey results were clear here on this point. There are far too many people who use Joe Touch's Word template. I think that it's clear that these people need a better alternative (or Joe's template needs some attention so that it can produce XML). > Are you sure it wasn't a text diff of the XML? That works OK if the > incoming XML is in a format close to what the RPC uses, not so great > otherwise. You are right, of course. And that is perfectly adequate for my purposes. Mostly. Maybe a true XML diff wouldn't mangle things so badly when things get out of sync. From nobody Thu Apr 29 03:17:50 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D533A225A for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 03:17:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eggert.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gIBEwiwLlnPD for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 03:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.eggert.org (mail.eggert.org [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:211:32ff:fe22:186f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FA6F3A38DA for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 03:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (unknown [IPv6:2a00:ac00:4000:400:b931:872:9086:53b7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9514B60031D; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 13:17:19 +0300 (EEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=eggert.org; s=dkim; t=1619691439; bh=aSA8+rKcHNStWCU8TWMW/Vh2UxdZIO9WUusxXBr/t8w=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=hfnRUASCaW90G6uoh+eh+cGuJ6YB5PdEJFoV2+JykGLRM7nfYTmBOfugGaQWvCMyN 6Prx95u5LFXX7mrhVHKcMGTGix0my5PnAIiiAHECJXOn69L3YQqmIq42RDT2CMnous dY/HYxehJv04lJRjiVlRpRmbrd4nRJ4AAYf29E/o= From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <15CBEB0C-A885-4837-8C83-D7E5912A97C0@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3BFB5157-57D7-40B8-AE29-B0378A4A2B82"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 13:17:16 +0300 In-Reply-To: <20210429011230.B128C49671E@ary.qy> Cc: tools-arch@ietf.org, mt@lowentropy.net To: John Levine References: <20210429011230.B128C49671E@ary.qy> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) X-MailScanner-ID: 9514B60031D.A285A X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 10:17:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3BFB5157-57D7-40B8-AE29-B0378A4A2B82 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2021-4-29, at 4:12, John Levine wrote: > This is why I like Jay's approach of trying to figure out what our I-D > authors actually do from writing to editing to AUTH48 to RFC, and see > what the gaps are before trying to guess what tools to update or > create. do we have any data on the number of Word authors, whether the numbers = are going up or down, and whether there are clusters in certain WGs = and/or areas? I wonder if we could push more docs to XML by assigning editors to = documents, esp. WG documents, that are up to speed with authoring in XML = or Markdown. Thanks, Lars --Apple-Mail=_3BFB5157-57D7-40B8-AE29-B0378A4A2B82 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAmCKh6wACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfSFA/9FPrivRXI5bWU65R+Fl2oQaCxLrh1/YbabayCCxq8nyAS523wG/unD259 +yoswygZyCdnOfRMSSvBbhQN5mOcbz9rO2lBP7RWVULway268LVl7Q5oaQELL7eL g3Q3bGPl1HWi+d9twVBHXK2F5DlGR1Gjm2Ra7YTLd3GKRvoTPJ0/vq0sSA8/CQH2 sN6QplqYVCcihyOIrZbzSBSgJMjJk0kiD44pPj/gLFdE2KymqX0QwAh5eD2VAEQr M3VfSijgc1lM34056JMD5l95NJmx4o88ASR/GNJUIZR/CO9SuiSdR7/WR7mzOTHK 8DDIj1C9msMRgY4nDbZz7ZDVENeRvvqTZtgOOSmWOAU0i8qwS3n2S3xOcsZcuEoA rHMJJfE1Y2eGmLvV+yMI0spkBwoQUDBMtio6T0iafN43PNnw8nW+yXVCvqqpuJsc 19hPZ+8UDYhDAZcLxeGxLS48/5k5NCoLIU49bcQ9FWOEkzx5GNuKIpbXV28WcKXF C9I/hzeyD2IFWtWCvlaPSTt1g5PFAFz9vIyb5O+HboasPgulm9xrTTjogiMFTJTm aZ3wsE/zrOxvelrxCTCIpbXBo5r04+g8jFRtScy909lz6NAfiDvSix0vQUwMb8K9 riUOjE2hO42mS1mKkgSx57NvFec1bJ+JYiiEdIvVYYr2ILb0wdY= =gRkH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_3BFB5157-57D7-40B8-AE29-B0378A4A2B82-- From nobody Thu Apr 29 09:04:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-arch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54BE3A412F for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 09:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=bSVtgFEx; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Kcz/dCsl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xG0IvzDXwqhU for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 09:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EDB93A28A0 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 09:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 54797 invoked from network); 29 Apr 2021 16:04:40 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=d609.608ad918.k2104; bh=86pMDxpQQ6tcpzuOP4d1razzcCAkGKRWqymwejt1RGI=; b=bSVtgFExwYxkjQLpX3AIkrHDDwJcFrCcfrN6jOF2N7cb8xHYogr4WkoPgNs2WuOZVoUJFGuAn3a+J/LNPxzLjATMQHw4s3jGd8PXj2yF9sMtubh6wuL6pmApyf9LybNRFZJx5aoJH+T5KMnde0x1qwDD+qhN2Nuz7iqlDH20d5guVuGU5oVM+I96Vk4pfuCoPTpgIUy6wfEKlTYISxH1GRcuIu8ajbKyTSTrADlYbWyc7WdCOgPJhRnEoSJMtikoTEaSmCEX1CkWB/462i4G198KO4S/HXYTR4wPzhFEC4l+knM5WxGPsj71xOnnfE81pkJM0ipaleRfv50zMNbxjA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:cleverness; s=d609.608ad918.k2104; bh=86pMDxpQQ6tcpzuOP4d1razzcCAkGKRWqymwejt1RGI=; b=Kcz/dCslK3A7BM8J4MLlqoKkdKoqTRi6C1HPSCGWXOJ+9Rxtwqf9ISlbEvAvZd7EMHY5sGgJ4nGJ/Wbz25zPx/HK4dDJofYWi6LkRuiTegzSrA4UMlZZAkr/HAXAqy7ca35V1ro1ihtynulGSu/otjZHB9wZIkVFqSpkiUMmzM7S2NzO5U+GfLSaMCJcz9MPKxux5cxB0ozVG7kHd+3kZ19IVTCFJLuwAARaIMuC9m1HEY/zDNP4M7gi4iSunIcDShNTo6nnNNCvaLJSCh7SMT9/QkaNLoD4aD1Vf0rwgCLOP01uHKf8op63rO2cVyDUAsAh9WbY9+rTg945P3iC1A== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 29 Apr 2021 16:04:39 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1829E535E9F; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 12:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: 29 Apr 2021 12:04:37 -0400 Message-Id: <20210429160438.1829E535E9F@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-arch@ietf.org Cc: mt@lowentropy.net In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Cleverness: minimal Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-arch] Recommendation 6: Architectural model for clients X-BeenThere: tools-arch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Tools Architecture and Strategy Team List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 16:04:48 -0000 It appears that Martin Thomson said: >On Thu, Apr 29, 2021, at 11:12, John Levine wrote: >> In principle, it's straightfoward to translate Word files into other >> formats. (The file format is ISO/IEC 29500, a bunch of XML files in a >> zip archive. The bad news is that the spec is over 5,000 pages.) >> We could build tools to turn Word files into our dialect of >> markdown or XML, give or take some negotiations about stylesheets >> and markup conventions. > >Sounds good. We probably need to stop saying "build" though. I used code that I found on a website and it worked nicely. While I am all in favor of using or adapting stuff that already exists, I don't get the impression that you're offering to train all the other IETFers that might want to use that code, fix bugs when people find them, make sure it works on other systems than yours, and so forth. Maybe "build" isn't the best word but the IETF has a budget for tools so we can support the stuff we care about. > I thought that the survey results were clear here on this point. There are far too many people who use Joe Touch's Word > template. I think that it's clear that these people need a better alternative (or Joe's template needs some attention > so that it can produce XML). it does produce XML, but it's ISO 29500 XML, not our XML. As I said, it should be possbible to build tools that use style tags in their XML to translate to something that works better in our publication process but I would like to understand the whole path the documents take so we don't end up with something that sort of works in theory but acutal authors don't use. R's, John -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly