Subject: [Tools-discuss] Extending calendar features...and some other things

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:01:32 -0600

I like the ability to subscribe to a calendar for the IETF Meeting.  
One of the issues is of course that I have to select the working  
groups for every IETF meeting, and that people should remember to  
unsubscribe and subscribe for every meeting. I understand there is  
some load issues, but we all forget...

But the main questions I have as a member of ISOC BoT. I by accident  
got to know that ICANN is looking for calendar tools that can be used  
for the events for their board, and similarly I find my life so easy  
in the IETF that I would like ISOC BoT to have similar lists. And  
there must be other "groups" that would like to have calendars that  
one can "subscribe" to. Some calendars being sensitive, i.e. with  
access control.

But, it is not x-mas, and of course everyone want a pony as well :-)  
but to start with, ISOC has this calendar:

http://ws.edu.isoc.org/calendar/

That calendar, if run on your tool, could include (I imagine) a  
checkmark/subscribe mechanism where I can say "I want to know of all  
RIPE and IETF meetings, but I do not care about the others". Then I  
get all of those events, including the ones that are added.

And groups could also have authentication and approval by some  
moderator before one can subscribe to certain calendars.

Or wait, is that what Google already has?

Hmm...

Bottom line, I like your calendar for the IETF calendar, and would  
like others to use similar mechanisms. But how?

Can ISOC help? If ICANN has the need, maybe they can do some  
development with the help of $$$?

Maybe we should have talked during the IETF ...

Anyway, I like what you do! Using many of your tools!

Check for example http://stupid.domain.name/idnabis/

On http://tools.ietf.org/wg/idnabis/, there is a link under related  
documents called "replaced by". What is triggering that? If I could  
control that, I would not need my page. Specifically if one can add  
other links as well.

     Patrik

_______________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
[email-masked]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

---

From: Fred Baker <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:25:44 -0600

> get all of those events, including the ones that are added.

So, let me see if I understand what you are asking for.

If I were building Henrik's tool, I would have some sort of database  
that listed things I was calendaring - for example, it might monitor http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/index.html 
  and look for lines that looked something like "RIPE 58 will take  
place in Amsterdam from 4-8 May 2009", and would daily delete whatever  
RIPE meetings it knew about and log whatever the tool now said, which  
might include making the RIPE 58 entry go away and create a new entry  
for RIPE 59. Similarly, for the IETF, it might have entries named ietf- 
<something> that are updated each meeting - "when is enum meeting" is  
always answered by the event "ietf-enum", even if it's an interim  
meeting.

And instead of subscribing to something like http://ws.edu.isoc.org/calendar/ical/wrc-all.ics 
, you want to be able to subscribe to something like http://www.isoc.org/calendar/ical/private/events=ripe+nanog+sanog+isoc-bot+ietf-xmpp+ietf-enum+who+knows+what.ics

which seems like a matter of (oversimplified) asking the database what  
it knows about entries with those character strings.

right?

> like others to use similar mechanisms.

Yes. I have only one issue - Henrik has to make it happen for each  
IETF, where it would be really nice if somehow he could set it up to  
make itself.

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:37:23 -0600

On 22 nov 2008, at 18.25, Fred Baker wrote:

>> checkmark/subscribe mechanism where I can say "I want to know of  
>> all RIPE and IETF meetings, but I do not care about the others".  
>> Then I get all of those events, including the ones that are added.
>
> place in Amsterdam from 4-8 May 2009", and would daily delete  
> whatever RIPE meetings it knew about and log whatever the tool now  
> said, which might include making the RIPE 58 entry go away and  
> create a new entry for RIPE 59. Similarly, for the IETF, it might  
> have entries named ietf-<something> that are updated each meeting -  
> "when is enum meeting" is always answered by the event "ietf-enum",  
> even if it's an interim meeting.

Not really. I think RIPE should be required to go to this new calendar  
tool and update their part of the central repository of calendars.  
Just like they do on the ISOC calendar.

I.e. I do not include the "I want a robot that do screen scraping" in  
my wishes.

> , you want to be able to subscribe to something like http://www.isoc.org/calendar/ical/private/events=ripe+nanog+sanog+isoc-bot+ietf-xmpp+ietf-enum+who+knows+what.ics

Yes.

> which seems like a matter of (oversimplified) asking the database  
> what it knows about entries with those character strings.
>
> right?

Yes.

> IETF, where it would be really nice if somehow he could set it up to  

Agreed. So if I understand things correctly, the current IETF calendar  
is created more or less manually before each meeting? A better  
situation would be to have a more general database backend that some  
editors can edit. Then the tools team does not have to do anything at  
all when a new IETF meeting is created.

Note that the ISOC calendar is one where there are editors for the  
events. Would that be difficult to do for this tools-calendar?

    Patrik

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:26:58 +0100

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:29:26 +0100

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:51:27 +0100

Resending.  I don't understand why Enigmail sometimes thinks it can
send encrypted messages to addressees it doesn't have keys for...

----

On 2008-11-23 01:25 Fred Baker said the following:
...
> IETF, where it would be really nice if somehow he could set it up to  

Mostly it's automated, but it works by using the current text-format
IETF agenda page as input, so is close to screenscraping that way.
I hope to be able to use the information in the database directly now
that we are able to more easily contribute code running against the
database directly.

There are two things I have to do manually for each meeting, though:

 * Add timezone information
 * Fix typos in the agenda-page (there always seem to be some)

I'd love to have it fully automated, though, and with the right
database content and access that should be eminently possible.

	Henrik

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:53:31 +0100

Resending...

...
> is created more or less manually before each meeting? 

The iCal feed is (as mentioned in my previous response) almost entirely
automatic, except for setting up the right timezone information and fixing
typos.

>A better  

Agreed.

> events. Would that be difficult to do for this tools-calendar?

Yes.  But maybe the current tool is ripe for an update...

	Henrik

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:55:22 +0100

Re-sending...

----

Hi Patrik,

> some load issues, but we all forget...

Regarding the unsubscribe/subscribe and load issue -- right now,
the generation of the calendar information is highly dynamic, so
if ~1000 people would update every 15 minutes, I'd probably see
a bit of loading of the server from this, but it should still be
able to handle it without breathing heavily.  The scripts can be
re-worked to generate more static information, though, so this
should not be viewed as an issue.

As for selecting the WGs for each meeting, I've had in mind to
provide a rolling calendar in addition to the current meeting-
specific ones, with an URL which wouldn't change from meeting to
meeting, so that it would be possible to keep the same subscription
across meetings and only have to tweak the subscribe information
with per-meeting changes.  It would be nice to have a web gui for
that, too; but I haven't worked out the details needed.

> http://ws.edu.isoc.org/calendar/

Mm.  No indication of what kind of back-end storage this has, though.

Of course...  Hmm.  There's a published 'ALL events' iCal feed; it
would be possible to split the current IETF subscription tool into
a backend which itself consumed iCal feeds, and a GUI front end which
only handled the composition of custom calendars.  Hmm...

> Or wait, is that what Google already has?

Not quite, I think.

> Anyway, I like what you do! Using many of your tools!

:-)

> documents called "replaced by". What is triggering that?

Replaced-by relationships in the IETF database (which are woefully
incomplete) *and* heuristically generated replaced-by information.

> If I could  

So, if you could manually add missing replaced-by information so it
was visible on the http://tools.ietf.org/wg/idnabis/ page, you'd be
all set?  I think I can arrange for that...

Best,

	Henrik

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:33:27 +0100

> all set?  I think I can arrange for that...

Excellent.

I think I would like to be able to create:

- Relationships that the IETF database does not have
- Links to "related documents that do NOT have wg status", i.e. other  
I-D's
- Links to "other web pages that might be of interest"

With those, I would kill my page asap.

    Patrik

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 15:34:05 +0100

> only handled the composition of custom calendars.  Hmm...

Let me take this up with ISOC and ICANN.

We need these calendar things I think.

    Patrik

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 08:54:03 +0200

Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

> > On http://tools.ietf.org/wg/idnabis/, there is a link under 
> > related documents called "replaced by". What is triggering that?
> 
> > If I could control that, I would not need my page. Specifically if
> > one can add other links as well.
> 

If you're going to manually add missing replaced-by information, the
best way to do it is emailing [email-masked]; they'll add it to
the IETF database. I regularly do this for my WGs, based on reminders
the Lars sends out:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/wgchairs/current/msg06375.html

This way, the information is visible in the official datatracker page
(not just tools.ietf.org), and gets used by various other tools (like
IPR disclosure search, Daily Dose of IETF, etc.).

Best regards,
Pasi

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:55:36 +0100

> IPR disclosure search, Daily Dose of IETF, etc.).

Ok, thanks!

    paf

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 07:57:48 +0100

> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/wgchairs/current/msg06375.html

But on this page I see:

draft-faltstrom-idnabis-tables REPLACED BY draft-ietf-idnabis-tables

This is though not reflected on the tools page for IDNABIS wg.

http://tools.ietf.org/wg/idnabis/

Foo?

    paf

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:18:11 +0200

> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/idnabis/

Ah, the link was missing some context -- it's the output from Lars's
script which tries to find (using file name heuristics) replaced-by
information that's *missing* from the database.

Or in other words: it's a reminder to WG chairs that they should
review their WG's part, and if the information is correct, ask the
secretariat to update the database (the script isn't always right, 
so manual review is needed).

Best regards,
Pasi

---

From: Lars Eggert <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 09:20:20 +0200

> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/idnabis/

Right. The reports my tools generates have errors, so I send them to  
the wgchairs list for the chairs to check before they report them to  
the secretariat.

Lars

PS: I'll be sending another report to wgchairs shortly.

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:23:04 +0100

Hi Pasi, all,

> the IETF database. I regularly do this for my WGs, based on reminders

Actually, what I had in mind in order to add this information manually
was to add a page where WG chairs could add the replaced-by information
for drafts related to their working groups to the IETF database directly;
obviating the need to run this through the secretariat.

> IPR disclosure search, Daily Dose of IETF, etc.).

And that's clearly desirable.

Best,

	Henrik

---

From: <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:35:45 +0200

Henrik Levkowetz wrote:

> Actually, what I had in mind in order to add this information
> manually was to add a page where WG chairs could add the replaced-by
> information for drafts related to their working groups to the IETF
> database directly; obviating the need to run this through the
> secretariat.

This would be even better, but it obviously requires that we have 
the authentication+authorization system deployed and working...

Since I came late to the code sprint on Saturday, I didn't see
this part of the code -- how ready is it?

(Once it's deployed and working, there are some IESG-only pages 
that I could convert to Django, too...)

Best regards,
Pasi

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:46:36 +0100

> PS: I'll be sending another report to wgchairs shortly.

Hmm.  This is still odd, because even if the replaced-by relationships
aren't in the official database, I synthetize replaced-by relationships
for the WG pages in a manner very similar to what Lars' script does, and
the drafts in relationship 

has names which should make this replacement appear in the tools pages...

Investigating.

	Henrik

---

From: Henrik Levkowetz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 12:56:45 +0100

On 2008-11-26 11:46 Henrik Levkowetz said the following:
...
> has names which should make this replacement appear in the tools pages...

The reason this relationship wasn't generated for the tools pages is that
there is an additional test for validity of the relationship which ensures
that the replaced draft is older than the replacement; however in the case
above, the draft-ietf-idnabis-tables-00.txt is missing from the draft
repository, so the file date test fails.

I've now scrounged a copy of the -00 draft from 
  http://stupid.domain.name/ietf/draft-ietf-idnabis-tables-00.txt .

The replaced-by relationship for this particular draft should be synthesized
correctly now, and the status page for idnabis should show the relationship.

	Henrik

---

From: Patrik Fältström <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2008 13:19:07 +0100

> correctly now, and the status page for idnabis should show the  

Thanks!

    paf