From nobody Wed Sep 2 14:12:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530FB3A0FA8 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:12:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jcQ-TXwR16FC for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4B5D3A0FA7 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.132] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 082LAfFA070104 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 14:10:42 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] (may be forged) claimed to be [10.32.60.132] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Tools Discussion" Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 14:12:20 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5672) Message-ID: <8DD7B25D-3233-49AA-9987-EA9A23F2498B@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Lack of history for a draft? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 21:12:25 -0000 For example: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update This doesn't show the history of the earlier drafts, which I am used to seeing. Did that disappear on purpose, or is this a bug? --Paul Hoffman From nobody Wed Sep 2 15:36:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B69EF3A1149 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=EX9QT3r4; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=mGkD3ZN5 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JDZsCPxgBIbu for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 294923A1147 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28681 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2020 22:35:56 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=7007.5f501e4c.k2009; bh=wk9TYp7r+3a3/X2949F3DRGiTwnJn+frWMPowc+Et7M=; b=EX9QT3r4dbkttr0UG1UMVOkP/bNBZ70BjiBjCrxzj/+elnRdlHzGayZtifBSQWP7ZZbojRSOdGNZ5xEGx0IgQxavk62EwYp/luwvtD+VfAXnTkh+R5iyK+MAoQ2NReYZNoCqrE7ncU6n3AS1S5q14CL9IIa23tpbwiYlE8Ed+QoggOWIn87j8f7P+1Th1RWLF0pFwBRRF98pCoEb+tocmPO10rv6/RU7+uH46ultywcHlcMthc6u/gfY30NFiDrXD7KsquRDv25oQWjFv0/EivOIxNvuY5L93fy+mq7Ffskrc8irohbiA0QHY4sD3bDZDp78yqzXA6Ju1Wuwl6s0Yg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=7007.5f501e4c.k2009; bh=wk9TYp7r+3a3/X2949F3DRGiTwnJn+frWMPowc+Et7M=; b=mGkD3ZN5YC1cWk5pO5FG0KOzL7p/E/5hBQyZZPrYjZ6voFdtznDGmOEZvh2BZfbOuT+J1tEcreiJGzdfiekw0g8w+Mkr7imtINB7FtmztSg3Z8ABOy7F7h072hBAjdvCTBajo7xBwWMrcovphtFCclx2v0y0jcDPV3u0m8TngcJr6Tkh41arekAVgGotgQWH8vwC6bDibKMdljPQddXc5CmeeAVOKN3TxASgCM5KYajvLWnJ2cyFALNITvGC5mgAgKQFHvcnna+xG/T+Z2N4g3ExfPwruDjpm8TakXw2/RHqUiiVJGpNx2lU+7lLD0gphkUBfclvIIbR/cMPrE+0/g== Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.2 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD) via TCP6; 02 Sep 2020 22:35:56 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id EB8B91F66EDA; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: 2 Sep 2020 18:35:56 -0400 Message-Id: <20200902223556.EB8B91F66EDA@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org In-Reply-To: <8DD7B25D-3233-49AA-9987-EA9A23F2498B@vpnc.org> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Lack of history for a draft? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2020 22:36:00 -0000 In article <8DD7B25D-3233-49AA-9987-EA9A23F2498B@vpnc.org> you write: >For example: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update >This doesn't show the history of the earlier drafts, which I am used to >seeing. Did that disappear on purpose, or is this a bug? Looks like a bug. The links are in its main tracker page and in this version. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 R's, John From nobody Wed Sep 2 18:57:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B3D13A0CBC for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:57:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WDkpP0PSqe9J for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x529.google.com (mail-pg1-x529.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::529]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1E3B3A0CBA for ; Wed, 2 Sep 2020 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x529.google.com with SMTP id w186so786726pgb.8 for ; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=W3Wj4Jlsg5W2rK/xRH+DmcSPVJx9Z/gm9PnyNddPQiU=; b=jPorHhsolESxNdLZ8TboYQ5w4HDcvjsBk7wiSpeFxmwmjZgGzk+g08QKWx7j5gOsvi Fk3sr/23lw6Fu0hqJNETZjS7nLuz/qkoU7aQr1OaJ1ULin7jpYVBhTDchT5bW5FA2RnG c7m10moDizrvrjNg2jxSJF/Y1QTb6RljE1a8SEkP9SpBTCyk8Pt4ND96oAlBlBsZ4/OI wouAABTLvZTHUUYmjFjU40MYW2faYmx6yOckEobJlFET7MZHy1hHO98tndAhODz2C5ro DTvUzuWiU92OJ5+eQn/Z4sMHKkW9C0wY6DN9jCrM3Ov3xHXX9tvdO+Cm6T4nu6155LSv +Ccw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=W3Wj4Jlsg5W2rK/xRH+DmcSPVJx9Z/gm9PnyNddPQiU=; b=dfg3+0iUl2YgHqLCXubxwPr6wTqV6WQZjy8HT9PInSm1gBwB0pl9U9zJX5A7O98Ye7 ucwzlu03pr/99cyoL43Cy7o/YuT8BGo7Lz5JluGJqFSG8//OhL2swItZOdbO6kXioo9c CSJqJd8pyl3lhYJZ5XSBoPF2DYqbbWXfGVS0ikr4sLCdhIjl4tUjmioacUi8WIgR5HZB U+DgmQ3qDWnZ3+da+tI8W9ZHTx+DiNDgoU3kHeAxxbnwTC6gP30CUKap83IdlgBKZe7+ vD3XXc98xQu29ayCykWXpQy3otkYSmWWyMCzRBPYJV5Oez91gw1xOGy/m26d64vlodh/ KnGw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532DaGFeuK89bDmxGdMTe2pOlohWNSpm3vdbJ4C2gVVprK/i6JWv iOKOdulzEK58PfkEv2k/EfRuslO+I+9Qbg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyEgnk2mwKNYSiKO0jV5Fw7vB5g78WAlCGh2PRqLt5gAFB+LrBg5KsPvYtI64GaiTIIQB1WcA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8f87:: with SMTP id z7mr1183628plo.93.1599098269213; Wed, 02 Sep 2020 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.139.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h5sm915640pfk.0.2020.09.02.18.57.47 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Sep 2020 18:57:48 -0700 (PDT) To: John Levine , tools-discuss@ietf.org Cc: paul.hoffman@vpnc.org References: <20200902223556.EB8B91F66EDA@ary.qy> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <861a27f7-1338-8fe9-e719-5368935ae687@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 13:57:44 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200902223556.EB8B91F66EDA@ary.qy> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Lack of history for a draft? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 01:57:51 -0000 On 03-Sep-20 10:35, John Levine wrote: > In article <8DD7B25D-3233-49AA-9987-EA9A23F2498B@vpnc.org> you write: >> For example: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update >> This doesn't show the history of the earlier drafts, which I am used to >> seeing. Did that disappear on purpose, or is this a bug? > > Looks like a bug. Which is already on Henrik's list, since it's not new, just a bit random. Brian The links are in its main tracker page and in this version. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-hardie-dispatch-rfc3405-update-03 > > R's, > John > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org > From nobody Thu Sep 3 09:51:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8903A0FD7 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:51:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VErsE-K4UDWZ for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 728C93A0FD3 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 09:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB4B389B3 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id ibmWfZnB7IK4 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34AA13898B for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CBE71CB for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:51:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] non-specific version of htmlish internet-drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 16:51:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain If I want to point at the most recently HTML-ized draft on tools, I can use: e.g: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-friel-anima-brski-cloud When I look at the datatracker page for the doc, I see a URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-friel-anima-brski-cloud-02 I also see: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-friel-anima-brski-cloud-02.html I tried: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-friel-anima-brski-cloud and it works, but I'm not sure if it's officially supposed to work. And if so, is there a reason the DT page doesn't give this link? Should I prefer www.ietf.org/id/ or datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html ? Okay, I just realized that the DT is *htmlized* text. This presentation is much harder to read than the tools htmlization, because doesn't fill as much of the screen by default, and you have CTRL+ to make more readable. BUT, the htmlized versions each point at the other versions, and a version-less link works. The pure-HTML version on www.ietf.org is way better for reading, and while I appreciate the table of contents on the right (unless my screen is too narrow), I miss having the ToC inline as well. Anyone have some greasemonkey to "undo" this bit of css? I feel that maybe www.ietf.org/id/ is a better (lower load on python code) link to be spreading around places, but maybe it is irrelevant. Or maybe there is a SEO benefit to using www.ietf.org? -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl9RHyMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVpPggAvlkHqOC+ldPpoPV9UA4tlP01y6YwlxF1PHs/gOsljIHUjVjCDKsmE6GC PBr5YNDyXgbpWGoDoe3WZWUuasZdgWPPtpozM/upxsZygtGwCfzdrOA8Eq1grhi5 DqMKPV/7ygDbNh5dIC2MHPaMrv/ecbhfJ6F7h8K+YqX9WsW8l2c8lzQdFPnMOols 3z8fPzvd9Ak0aZ+aAMj2KIIVxOfB2XqZLCzKKRa6wvWVCpbnuL9HJajZfiEE250o nmwoRjqN9U4Gwa9xW1RoHp21CTXAwouvOegV+46NmZneQAdYfqqpaRj6dncjb82w wozC68oVOkJgihCBnQikCywU7oU6IQ== =aopj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 3 12:24:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 454753A11EC for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xlledrDJTDJ2 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E12F3A11C5 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id q9so3971272wmj.2 for ; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 12:24:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=oRWMD1nRK/pnNmqlYZ8t7RlMia+eQx1eSEXEEjozXjs=; b=NyOQaOW5s57jo2d5puDHEXOywlvSYaaDEl2BgpJoJePYEACNPoQprjnQ5P3Bc89BZ8 3qcoW+MMhgx21j6L81FFQa7C7DMcDN6masCZDucZ0xbfl0aPoHyCIecNQdQn45koz/NZ nnACAtiKDRgyWcTBe4GvYKeK30v1ojrx/ukIPjaGrohvNgZmG5zBnKQuxE+9bTgMfz55 cl4xAmi1a8frm/40UsfW/+zjoPPh0J7IWHKz/0sv98u74kmp+2wRVQMTDYZLsWGT9g2D w2qePWAtFTc5jSBkqOtPSO7OZL8lVNcY8fDtW6Vm24Fyw2IS5lfY916RjwhE7FCr3puu CI8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=oRWMD1nRK/pnNmqlYZ8t7RlMia+eQx1eSEXEEjozXjs=; b=OEu2vNGP4dbwjwLQ//vtWEOwxfjJX/egRxkxUIDzKwd8JBQrp6Ser1aziOnCRqPfmP rj2Jv4Q79tx9UX1DyHS0t1LD8IkNDOq1BEk36gxFIzbKTDQUZMdc0Pd3rdrMspdHXPJ2 2whT7odbinSgjai/rkwpduFK3aWWxFEHUsz4N9nrE0KOAnrJ9sRfcLsI7gSSHwweHwNY 0mDbv5jyoXIGumqfw8aMX0gwWay8db4T6Xey4tySnDA62hp1t1SQ1A6PKaIeo97TXBjR FxWjoD1T4pTvf4mFoUkJ45eE/3VgULaIAmHrpsAVms+ilkCVrEzFENyAAT9bEk0RKOP5 NyHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532PUwos3t9fVE4MmhbsYn4h7IWkiv5RqC48F016j4VtyDXamKGm 3xBTWBWzX0u4Mrg69vgQzJzNcMXlyLxboQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy5ReoWFdeKvjBh2CPgLZ5rGl+sxeeWhzwu/LT6H6XKCHA7c3esVsJIUj0OEYhJ9xNgzZhw6w== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:b608:: with SMTP id g8mr4213212wmf.106.1599161047944; Thu, 03 Sep 2020 12:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:e539:f0bf:e2ef:96ad? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:e539:f0bf:e2ef:96ad]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l126sm5785367wmf.39.2020.09.03.12.24.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 03 Sep 2020 12:24:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_41107395-6DE0-43BF-993C-02BF3EECC230"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2020 12:23:59 -0700 In-Reply-To: <28738.1599151907@localhost> Cc: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <28738.1599151907@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-specific version of htmlish internet-drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2020 19:24:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_41107395-6DE0-43BF-993C-02BF3EECC230 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Michael, > On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > If I want to point at the most recently HTML-ized draft on tools, I = can use: > e.g: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-friel-anima-brski-cloud >=20 > When I look at the datatracker page for the doc, I see a URL: > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-friel-anima-brski-cloud-02 > I also see: > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-friel-anima-brski-cloud-02.html >=20 > I tried: > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-friel-anima-brski-cloud > and it works, but I'm not sure if it's officially supposed to work. >=20 > And if so, is there a reason the DT page doesn't give this link? > Should I prefer www.ietf.org/id/ or datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html ? >=20 > Okay, I just realized that the DT is *htmlized* text. > This presentation is much harder to read than the tools htmlization, = because > doesn't fill as much of the screen by default, and you have CTRL+ to = make > more readable. BUT, the htmlized versions each point at the other = versions, > and a version-less link works. >=20 > The pure-HTML version on www.ietf.org is way better for reading, and = while I > appreciate the table of contents on the right (unless my screen is too > narrow), I miss having the ToC inline as well. I much prefer the html version with an inline TOC and have gotten to = dislike the TOC on the right mode. I don=E2=80=99t find it helpful at = all. > Anyone have some greasemonkey to "undo" this bit of css? I would like to be able to turn off the TOC on the right too! Bob >=20 > I feel that maybe www.ietf.org/id/ is a better (lower load on python = code) link to > be spreading around places, but maybe it is irrelevant. Or maybe = there is a > SEO benefit to using www.ietf.org? >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_41107395-6DE0-43BF-993C-02BF3EECC230 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl9RQs8ACgkQrut0EXfn u6gVWAgAuaIjIt3lq69lq7ZnghOjfNDOfxJEiwkrqpD6KnfLZhCKI/quyUJQ2byH uVpVp13Q52a+1LEJdlyUS+u9EWFy4A4h8ZcJF+nXKG81ijk/XHM5xn4KrpoMcqT/ 5jOj5rKx+DukHqhA/oPwk9jCMzmCxMFPNe346o54P4HMcVNZTAriXqDb/3F7k0D9 +5XthYZqk9qE+YXGs8zNXt9piDltB/ffyujMshZk335ybmwe7EvGBkWHyRHo/0dA yjjc/iIVHH9mGEi2Frr5Rj38Po2muw5lU8YD3sK+malxQD1W2GQwFsuzQyvgSFU3 qh59yHzwZGPTVElX9p08n5MkgIc4fw== =2D9G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_41107395-6DE0-43BF-993C-02BF3EECC230-- From nobody Thu Sep 3 17:55:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14873A142B for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xeoo2FNObBEh for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09E1B3A03F5 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 17:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C1E389B1; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 20:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id mvpUzPa-tOf5; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 20:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD24389AF; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 20:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F441AA; Thu, 3 Sep 2020 20:55:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <28738.1599151907@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-specific version of htmlish internet-drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 00:55:56 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob Hinden wrote: >> The pure-HTML version on www.ietf.org is way better for reading, and= while I >> appreciate the table of contents on the right (unless my screen is t= oo >> narrow), I miss having the ToC inline as well. > I much prefer the html version with an inline TOC and have gotten to > dislike the TOC on the right mode. I don=E2=80=99t find it helpful a= t all. I also prefer it in general. I use the down-arrow to scroll, and it usually winds up scrolling the TOC a= nd then I have to click somewhere else. I can't imagine how it works on a tablet in landscape mode. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl9RkJYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXjlQf/b3WSH8cO1C28GgRtGGgnIe6c2ydexDIFD6qa/HoadctpXkdSyi4lPeTk cogis33koOCKjIKwKy7AnUBLbjuBqzo91WrdDyDV95DCr8AKSFZOKcJlmAc5RhYh Ad+BHaRrKYL1B2fQUcN82fh13rokwjO5+qcSiXSTyQRZ6EvkIdLDrCDVY29V9uAw r99ygVGOtpbF7bzqAMvVYq20ZGY5DxXV47ZwhEYXb2DAZ4psbLSVCkk9tjVph4n3 Es1yDm5K/UwPaDWIV/7v/EYfo0Htg1a6JdMY7WPE1nsQ7wa9FIj1hKNy51frGQFS Mo2iJ0ibitzx1n/q3rA2Pw5eE51wKQ== =g7ic -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Sep 6 03:13:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885BD3A0B93 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 03:13:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Sun, 6 Sep 2020 06:13:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.3.0-259-g88fbbfa-fm-20200903.003-g88fbbfa3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <86cd0208-1c52-492a-ba14-d3f29e6142c3@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <28738.1599151907@localhost> Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2020 20:13:29 +1000 From: "Martin Thomson" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-specific version of htmlish internet-drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2020 10:13:55 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020, at 05:23, Bob Hinden wrote: > > On Sep 3, 2020, at 9:51 AM, Michael Richardson wrote: > I much prefer the html version with an inline TOC and have gotten to=20= > dislike the TOC on the right mode. I don=E2=80=99t find it helpful at= all. >=20 > > Anyone have some greasemonkey to "undo" this bit of css? >=20 > I would like to be able to turn off the TOC on the right too! Would you find something that dropped the TOC inline when the screen was= narrower helpful? See this old draft rendering for that: https://marti= nthomson.github.io/quic-tls/ That style change is fairly easy to manage if that is what you might pre= fer. From nobody Sun Sep 6 11:52:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7BB3A1105 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 11:52:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, PP_MIME_FAKE_ASCII_TEXT=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=iecc.com header.b=Q+qH9C6r; dkim=fail (2048-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=taugh.com header.b=UjKtY88t Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HrbSDpA0SiyE for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8C7B3A1104 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 11:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 94827 invoked by uid 100); 6 Sep 2020 18:51:57 -0000 Date: 6 Sep 2020 18:51:56 -0000 Message-ID: From: "John Levine" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:cleverness; s=17264.5f552fcc.k2009; i=news@user.iecc.com; bh=FqCqzQgXm8M5Lcl746bkr8s/K1VIhoFS5cjWprfDOsI=; b=Q+qH9C6rPEyfiD72+xvc7n6cV6POpkzt7msJBlYccRiY5oxQPodhH1OGdmI/lL/1c9VDXmpvjevk6aY1yV/vKSaSWiklEv99fWAv0afBMtevUKeHgH49C/66K++ps3Qv2TYytjln+B76IgDyMAWO9FTWnNwxD/dywEYrCTXMGQvwqzL00aZQQjur51darpDNv/ttEO81zv0MGI7vJSL3nuPQ0dZAgyjOZpy9Wgt/eIvRogXgLjbxPla2vJkoakuSinluz2UKHnMKJcFIKu4pVBpRIpn/9U5u/hhizAbR2AnhhgETpMDov1grdHGwiFQnZRpkL/EHlX+LfLEUHv4KSg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:cleverness; s=17264.5f552fcc.k2009; olt=news@user.iecc.com; bh=FqCqzQgXm8M5Lcl746bkr8s/K1VIhoFS5cjWprfDOsI=; b=UjKtY88t5M//AW21G9t8fyLQhQssBf0q/GRJVD9SvFkd57PlOTqrB3hmIERm3Xp0r2LMs9XRIO6c7z1ELnX1gjfZWOyZy8Z4n5/K9SHfPkZR6Y6UvMNOM4MAxcB6NB8B1CoaU+A4P/iSx7JYO73kTQKlHQ/WQRku2OaEm49+Yd4AV7hv0kGuwTgPdZ/9c/ny3GquZqKE/nkW1n/HeWRXFSBqji+zTvSducc2NkSPyk3+wurSIeDrwtkHuHVJqXTaYqD/39+167JUfMrYcxOzhyLc0CxfPxGHnvyJOisoUaFVAi+daUAOuHtWYT/xSWcoAb4PGc2rt8mLwQqNeyqsHQ== Organization: Taughannock Networks References: <28738.1599151907@localhost> In-Reply-To: <28738.1599151907@localhost> Cleverness: some X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010) Originator: johnl@iecc.com (John Levine) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-specific version of htmlish internet-drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2020 18:52:00 -0000 In article , Bob Hinden wrote: >I much prefer the html version with an inline TOC and have gotten to dislike the TOC on the right mode. I don’t >find it helpful at all. > >> Anyone have some greasemonkey to "undo" this bit of css? > >I would like to be able to turn off the TOC on the right too! If you make your window narrower, the TOC disappears into a pulldown tab in the top corner. -- Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Sun Sep 6 12:07:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB6B3A1119 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:07:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tAYP1DOlonFN for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com (mail-wm1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79E7F3A1117 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id q9so11691809wmj.2 for ; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 12:07:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=sXkeSGtRICrHcIXnvgvo2gGrAdqBHVtNZ6rSDZy2h5w=; b=clu43u8XZ3R7iiJU3IstV+cT8sN2V6kuntwpBApYNo4kh5kxT/UmT4t1khvMkeQOzM jzO8jxVUitUqUIg5cyl8l2/Vd1vxEGrR625NH2juFmyhalxqjamD6lHfVelof3B37Cbi lU6DCxdQ7vQJ2lWPNfMrVV3b2D20fM+v10SZzcvWqShdWN7dMtFMAOUm+LAX0J2YPCjY t2B7JJBd+L4NUG2VKfNBQFmUfVpz0Z9VkOcubhVLIQ2+GqUuTtm3P1UAE4MFANJQ4Yck KOKMmmpLMi8m0Per1OaiRIfP356+QeprFq5fk+89VKSEhiQ9arSo9zLez8QbQS728aXQ tJsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=sXkeSGtRICrHcIXnvgvo2gGrAdqBHVtNZ6rSDZy2h5w=; b=fENWTMGjVyOGhUcHXXSu6YG2NtsxVTKUoRFAnGoA1+F1M6U3nwWGvAlWhYU+Q9wS0s PYwAmR1sGafR1WSk5DhztAx3S+GTx4VUb2rBFyae6zKHQGJb2UdfHDmyM9bWims/3rXP mDkzCRz2X17dOfIBOsgDhcvdjxZGILcIwoJd0F4Eqyz/0eThKpcyx5TY5zs64oxK5pkV 2CEvAVh6Nh3i+44kZ7szHEqQm2FxmU6pwpooBA44k51SuFHBZqsCkl5aSILf5qKVvld2 fJQ2XkJN8MSER3oxrz11AYc8aNZIRl23wtZpTaEIsOJCLIF/CPhfjyg8m3u9i3mzAAx6 S25w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531/hKon77oCabWab7rTPyhFW5whbVuNC4adYadVLUUNsjbwBZwt sMc2Qv5rSqd0EFPeIyPEpl8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwe45Bd1YMM/tHyMzQdVm5oR+xOOc7md37rlPQ9CbShsLsPFRpRkF820s6rdbktEcMGVAisAg== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cbd4:: with SMTP id n20mr18318469wmi.105.1599419256849; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 12:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n4sm24538117wrp.61.2020.09.06.12.07.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 06 Sep 2020 12:07:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <5F049D8A-E720-44BF-9831-1FECA4C5CCF8@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_48FC10F0-C907-4991-9231-AA7E3ABFE37E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:07:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Bob Hinden , tools-discuss@ietf.org To: John Levine References: <28738.1599151907@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-specific version of htmlish internet-drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2020 19:07:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_48FC10F0-C907-4991-9231-AA7E3ABFE37E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 John, > On Sep 6, 2020, at 11:51 AM, John Levine wrote: >=20 > In article , > Bob Hinden wrote: >> I much prefer the html version with an inline TOC and have gotten to = dislike the TOC on the right mode. I don=E2=80=99t >> find it helpful at all. >>=20 >>> Anyone have some greasemonkey to "undo" this bit of css? >>=20 >> I would like to be able to turn off the TOC on the right too! >=20 > If you make your window narrower, the TOC disappears into a pulldown = tab in the top corner. I was aware of that. I would still like to only have an inline TOC and = nothing on the right. Bob >=20 > -- > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for = Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. = https://jl.ly >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_48FC10F0-C907-4991-9231-AA7E3ABFE37E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl9VM3MACgkQrut0EXfn u6hDQwf/UoRfDKPGlixENnR0KoDh91Sfp6gU2WBBepWYyPepNd94XY2p1OxGs8mY 0G4oRSDbvFqaowIx49j/tdPM1RDsmn1OyqWLOsFJ8YQ8j9WvSasg2hVbYc98TtTO gwtI5+idgLiLp/Exa9IJJfTs6887nQznCESQFD6SN3MIa1nWGTBmXISuKSQ6W26x ViQbX61gEhCftztQ8Vq2xf8DTL1GCboVqG/y9z0qOXnMcrEztS5qCpOxud7rAM0H S/jx7hSX4Ut2Xr51J5mAxvMW2vvZeEPNw89NQXY1jrXrn4FjqYQoyJnTlXAdaSrr JPurRzVW3XEGdrsZUbGjChW9Iel4aA== =gWex -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_48FC10F0-C907-4991-9231-AA7E3ABFE37E-- From nobody Sun Sep 6 12:28:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885913A1130 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:28:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MwnioEo3XN1O for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A5623A1133 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 12:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost.localdomain (69-77-155-155.static.skybest.com [69.77.155.155]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 498F01B253; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 15:28:49 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1599420529; bh=1o1efGZYTOIXYh3GpsQ6Y6S3ckVDJAfx5wO6dSR1kdc=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:In-Reply-To:To:From; b=j65R1EORJ3RtBqInhRHt9LtgMRgLUcLOaZ5S3Q95U55xo7X5Po13B34Cj8VNh+tn7 0E7/80OLAjSbqkPSVjGQ96I6cEyeR5aq+R5puM3RhyYKqGMuno4cJaxoapGDEyXEoe t+UTrct4kxjJj48O9azFWQnIgUTCfNsFo2qig4aXQfdOUBHR9Ch6kCBYkbpR7l7CgS yAjpvBhiSWoR7Tj41Bhp2Pj2LSIeluOWtm8aNRyAS245dVI3bWqOKfKj8As0I9AJd+ Z2GnqR4P6K5x7v+zFKd2KZaN6Pjgw9kt1FKevdbBB3wIe9igTJr14jk9O3F6UTsrnG BlIfzkmQvOuDw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Tom Pusateri Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 15:28:48 -0400 Message-Id: <5569EE88-B3A9-42F3-963A-D2A0CA7EC8AB@bangj.com> References: <5F049D8A-E720-44BF-9831-1FECA4C5CCF8@gmail.com> Cc: John Levine , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5F049D8A-E720-44BF-9831-1FECA4C5CCF8@gmail.com> To: Bob Hinden X-Mailer: iPad Mail (18A5357e) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-specific version of htmlish internet-drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2020 19:28:57 -0000 > On Sep 6, 2020, at 3:07 PM, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFJohn, >=20 >>> On Sep 6, 2020, at 11:51 AM, John Levine wrote: >>>=20 >>> In article , >>> Bob Hinden wrote: >>> I much prefer the html version with an inline TOC and have gotten to dis= like the TOC on the right mode. I don=E2=80=99t >>> find it helpful at all. >>>=20 >>>> Anyone have some greasemonkey to "undo" this bit of css? >>>=20 >>> I would like to be able to turn off the TOC on the right too! >>=20 >> If you make your window narrower, the TOC disappears into a pulldown tab i= n the top corner. >=20 > I was aware of that. I would still like to only have an inline TOC and n= othing on the right. >=20 > Bob I was always frustrated with the HTMLized version of drafts in the past beca= use there was so much potential to have better indexing, internal and extern= al referencing, better fonts, readability, etc. I think the new HTML v3 stuff is a great step in the right direction. It may= still need some tweaks but, overall, I=E2=80=99m encouraged. Can you guys give some specific examples of things besides the TOC that need= improved? Thanks, Tom From nobody Sun Sep 6 15:00:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508AD3A121D for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 15:00:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dtlTWMKdUHi0 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 15:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B40EE3A121A for ; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 15:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351E1389C1; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 17:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id HwVZkyK-EJFp; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 17:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6643F389B4; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 17:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFBDFB; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 18:00:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Tom Pusateri , tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5569EE88-B3A9-42F3-963A-D2A0CA7EC8AB@bangj.com> References: <5F049D8A-E720-44BF-9831-1FECA4C5CCF8@gmail.com> <5569EE88-B3A9-42F3-963A-D2A0CA7EC8AB@bangj.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] non-specific version of htmlish internet-drafts X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2020 22:00:51 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tom Pusateri wrote: someone> If you make your window narrower, the TOC disappears into a someone> pulldown tab in the top corner. bob> I was aware of that. I would still like to only have an inline T= OC bob> and nothing on the right. yes, but then, my *tab* is smaller, and since it's part of a group, the rest are too, and while I can break it off, I don't really want to. I often also rotate a small device to landscape so that I can have full sentences and use a auto-scroll plugin. > I was always frustrated with the HTMLized version of drafts in the pa= st > because there was so much potential to have better indexing, internal > and external referencing, better fonts, readability, etc. Agreed. > I think the new HTML v3 stuff is a great step in the right > direction. It may still need some tweaks but, overall, I=E2=80=99m en= couraged. > Can you guys give some specific examples of things besides the TOC th= at need improved? I saw recently that hovering over a reference shows you the details. That's very cool. I wish I could do that with all the TLAs, both as defined in the document itself, and in the RFC-editor list. Even better if they could be in an associated document. The DRIP documents important a dozen confusing TLAs from the aviation space... that's hard. But, I don't want too much hovering, and I might want to turn it all off. It is not the same on a touch screen, and it's a fail if it's a bit drizzly if you are, reading drafts while at the bus stop. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl9VXAwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWE0AgAhCuNbAde+Z3RpcqTVFnuDIWc5qWoZA6gabIX4YL4A8FWenKmlhKqQnaC +S3Wss5sqBo4+oPDq+CX7G4WTlYk4o6RypSVB4yHAu8tzmY4j/k6UwagWmuYMxeh AOVStZLFUxttsD8q0Rfo2hAQpVxqC01w4Z+jjOP2Zc3kUu353BRh39VdOw0vkCjr IROFzzL5wQzoIG/oIYjnY8syA1UlEvoXSklaEI3w8mECli4/wuqjAR6lZHFWXQjX QkAVMj/agdIKyjaSgRJjYyNUezi/R0JTNu+4FDGXSvrF6P1jx4Gimm2KtJ/BzFcV xfFgoxdgzHNojQpJYV2G1GiVUhbhng== =Gifr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Sep 9 11:55:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683A33A0CC3; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 11:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jW7FLu23OXiU; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 11:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C5843A0CB3; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 11:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 089ItQkh086746 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Sep 2020 13:55:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599677727; bh=/CVobLU9aaAdna2qgM2rVrNSGguVbb579FOCCBuxYBs=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=eA4TvhxzfcnxGIfH/oLzwdyWNRlRNhw6FS+IU3LiuU/CUHAQ/L9lZcXmh7EjsADpT MRih8lp/KBTQp//cqDyjk7Ad/froVap+KvK7FgbyfemDFuXiCVkQtuD5txS0iLSZUr g5KYXLv1nAgWup+s8xkMopJYDeOxdRjvoSRgLtcc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local From: Robert Sparks To: codesprints@ietf.org, "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <7c01a31d-cde7-c070-0f23-e923afdba6ac@nostrum.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 13:55:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7c01a31d-cde7-c070-0f23-e923afdba6ac@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Doodle for preferences for a sprint between IETF 108 and 109. X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:55:33 -0000 The responses indicate the week of Sep 20, at 20:00-ish UTC. Tuesday and Friday had even responses. I'll go with Friday 25 September since it's still more than two weeks away. I'll send more details to the list soon. RjS On 8/31/20 2:45 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > If you are interested in participating in a codesprint between now and > IETF109, please add yourself to the survey at > https://doodle.com/poll/xyiy9pw2wqyh7daq > > RjS > From nobody Wed Sep 9 12:52:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7FC3A0B7B; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 12:52:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c_S-8-OHQel3; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 12:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E2713A0D46; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 12:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 089JqV4b006350 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Sep 2020 14:52:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599681153; bh=x1CLaKfxMCc68es0xggrxZH8fvku3VU3U0vDtp3omXU=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=dU6Pe9vcSMjEXBBrPq5jydOJqr6S1ZNxRKvlwe0exLx3+CPbWWBG7TsvhjsEwkC2l QhmQo7qVR3RsLgNUfuxFz7vvnt2Wmu7nz+M7YoJFM2EzaTDbT5fyE+GwaM5viivN77 m8P9rFraqPZ7wnrUCaDXDsuX4EXjmqPDSz8y3Qz8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local From: Robert Sparks To: codesprints@ietf.org, "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <7c01a31d-cde7-c070-0f23-e923afdba6ac@nostrum.com> Message-ID: <8a40aa29-0d51-9ab6-7df0-a532130dd94a@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 14:52:31 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Codesprint 108.1 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 19:52:39 -0000 We will hold a virtual codesprint Friday 25 Sep 2020 at 2000 UTC. Information, including webex coordinates, is available at If you participated in the recent doodle, you've already been added to the Signup page at Please feel free to remove yourself if that time became unavailable for you already. If you can participate and are not yet signed up, please add yourself to that list. Thank you for the time you put in on making things better for the IETF community! RjS From nobody Wed Sep 9 18:45:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8863A0A40; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:44:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hywe8u-M8zSS; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5DA53A0A3F; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.3] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D81981B98D; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 21:44:51 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1599702292; bh=m3rLAKsU+XVVb6yFmay5B/97pnaxu9LCYYC5ujehr4I=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=lL4B1CKNeWR4/K+wrT9QJWOZa5pZsjMDsMtu7ym2GRmYqQ4Oo1HbSMzz/fDND1Cp9 hDqApur4PxciAX7koiHPyIUEOf0PMtI/pmx0QQZtMAOCkeKhErFRscL0K/wuk3sxEf gr8d+b5Ye4kyW93f6wqlhxHiyLoDC6BzCP1R0oe0pXhDc1fJQm/X/PSaiyNcseI2bs b7MFalZ9zauOPiOBC/m4lyESe/Efh7s25x0qkkjFChxCa7csd++ar6c6NJnw7MLgWO QVRV8xhEL8XOVWweyA9cygPQrEfvBm/f9a1b4XNUDIKeZwt6qbOe4PUcJWszM+spL9 xYqVBbZleHYsg== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) From: Tom Pusateri In-Reply-To: <8a40aa29-0d51-9ab6-7df0-a532130dd94a@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 21:44:51 -0400 Cc: codesprints@ietf.org, "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <004A6448-FB58-4F3E-951E-8E40310CE0C1@bangj.com> References: <7c01a31d-cde7-c070-0f23-e923afdba6ac@nostrum.com> <8a40aa29-0d51-9ab6-7df0-a532130dd94a@nostrum.com> To: Robert Sparks X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Codesprint 108.1 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 01:44:59 -0000 > On Sep 9, 2020, at 3:52 PM, Robert Sparks = wrote: >=20 > We will hold a virtual codesprint Friday 25 Sep 2020 at 2000 UTC. >=20 > Information, including webex coordinates, is available at >=20 > >=20 > If you participated in the recent doodle, you've already been added to = the Signup page at >=20 > >=20 > Please feel free to remove yourself if that time became unavailable = for you already. >=20 > If you can participate and are not yet signed up, please add yourself = to that list. >=20 > Thank you for the time you put in on making things better for the IETF = community! >=20 > RjS Is Docker required? I installed it last time and it was constantly = running on macOS talking back to it=E2=80=99s central servers even when = I wasn=E2=80=99t using it and using way too much CPU. I don=E2=80=99t = need to be monitored like that. I uninstalled it. Thanks, Tom From nobody Wed Sep 9 18:59:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B683A0A5E; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:59:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y0JHR1QJSKbB; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0365A3A0A56; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 08A1xCKn031288 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Sep 2020 20:59:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599703153; bh=u6LJz5hqJeT5xekJNhj7MhY4rbRTZeFODciWODhVNK8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=JS9AfwY8ADpAHnBmvnzOCwPSSGqQpUM+IlhiIRMS53vDUhFNmNUZik9umpcoFFJrS A32lqWT+rTi+o01qz40U/Iveclr4+Q0Kvv0cAWafs1gdbSsP3BTIP3msttp/lJpjjk LnNvQUbbKy5L0E4WfdPpZF3pvM4kTxLfqLi376fw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: Tom Pusateri Cc: codesprints@ietf.org, "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <7c01a31d-cde7-c070-0f23-e923afdba6ac@nostrum.com> <8a40aa29-0d51-9ab6-7df0-a532130dd94a@nostrum.com> <004A6448-FB58-4F3E-951E-8E40310CE0C1@bangj.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <9dd05b37-85cd-cbe4-40bd-8cca1dfa5edb@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 20:59:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <004A6448-FB58-4F3E-951E-8E40310CE0C1@bangj.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Codesprint 108.1 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 01:59:20 -0000 On 9/9/20 8:44 PM, Tom Pusateri wrote: >> On Sep 9, 2020, at 3:52 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: >> >> We will hold a virtual codesprint Friday 25 Sep 2020 at 2000 UTC. >> >> Information, including webex coordinates, is available at >> >> >> >> If you participated in the recent doodle, you've already been added to the Signup page at >> >> >> >> Please feel free to remove yourself if that time became unavailable for you already. >> >> If you can participate and are not yet signed up, please add yourself to that list. >> >> Thank you for the time you put in on making things better for the IETF community! >> >> RjS > Is Docker required? I installed it last time and it was constantly running on macOS talking back to it’s central servers even when I wasn’t using it and using way too much CPU. I don’t need to be monitored like that. I uninstalled it. Docker is not required. You can do a direct install, but it will take you longer and you will have to understand a great deal more about what you are doing. There is a link to the NativeSetup page off the SprintCoderSetup page that explains the steps you will need to take. On a quick skim, it's aged a bit - you need to read Python3 where it says Python 2, and the example settings_local.py is out of date - you'll want to derive what's appropriate for your native environment off the template that's in the Docker build directory. If it's your first time to do a Native setup, you will not complete it in two hours. Please plan to start it significantly ahead of time (like, _now_) and send mail when you get stuck. > > Thanks, > Tom > From nobody Wed Sep 9 19:04:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A139D3A0A7B; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 19:04:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bjjqGLVwX2Qg; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 19:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1C693A0A79; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 19:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 08A24LHC033062 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 9 Sep 2020 21:04:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599703463; bh=3PwxoNSOCnPzLNNGtZBx/tmMIH+dMLL9ej3UH6AD/v4=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Bsgu6wLHeN5vQL0lCBsO9/nm9nIfukz7w3M195Nv5qJKwOKyAJeX6fKY0/U0XifUA 9FsnxaoZ1cO/7QbOwhiyN8/KTP60RM38aZ6z4433i08W/6tAuZAtcZgQipestKUjhV D1yn0NhNno2YmlJzZwM3JJv7COWGCJUm9utbi8dU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local From: Robert Sparks To: Tom Pusateri Cc: codesprints@ietf.org, "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <7c01a31d-cde7-c070-0f23-e923afdba6ac@nostrum.com> <8a40aa29-0d51-9ab6-7df0-a532130dd94a@nostrum.com> <004A6448-FB58-4F3E-951E-8E40310CE0C1@bangj.com> <9dd05b37-85cd-cbe4-40bd-8cca1dfa5edb@nostrum.com> Message-ID: <9e58aea8-1090-07f6-3f47-0d906905d1a5@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 21:04:21 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9dd05b37-85cd-cbe4-40bd-8cca1dfa5edb@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Codesprint 108.1 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 02:04:27 -0000 On 9/9/20 8:59 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > > On 9/9/20 8:44 PM, Tom Pusateri wrote: >>> On Sep 9, 2020, at 3:52 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: >>> >>> We will hold a virtual codesprint Friday 25 Sep 2020 at 2000 UTC. >>> >>> Information, including webex coordinates, is available at >>> >>> >>> >>> If you participated in the recent doodle, you've already been added >>> to the Signup page at >>> >>> >>> >>> Please feel free to remove yourself if that time became unavailable >>> for you already. >>> >>> If you can participate and are not yet signed up, please add >>> yourself to that list. >>> >>> Thank you for the time you put in on making things better for the >>> IETF community! >>> >>> RjS >> Is Docker required? I installed it last time and it was constantly >> running on macOS talking back to it’s central servers even when I >> wasn’t using it and using way too much CPU. I don’t need to be >> monitored like that. I uninstalled it. > Docker is not required. You can do a direct install, but it will take > you longer and you will have to understand a great deal more about > what you are doing. There is a link to the NativeSetup page off the > SprintCoderSetup page that explains the steps you will need to take. > On a quick skim, it's aged a bit - you need to read Python3 where it > says Python 2, and the example settings_local.py is out of date - > you'll want to derive what's appropriate for your native environment > off the template that's in the Docker build directory. If it's your > first time to do a Native setup, you will not complete it in two > hours. Please plan to start it significantly ahead of time (like, > _now_) and send mail when you get stuck. Also, you can tell docker desktop not to start on startup, and tell it to quit when you're not using it. As far as I've seen, it does not leave anything active after you tell it to exit. >> >> Thanks, >> Tom >> From nobody Thu Sep 10 08:32:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511D63A0B02 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:32:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J4HPOfgfSvoX for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52D743A0B21 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD7F389BC for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id NW8uFgeVfE57 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B34E1389D4 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA484212 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:32:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:32:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I had given a link to a document: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.h= tml I thought I was smart and modern to give them the HTML rendered link. But, two hours later, I found a few stupid typos and posted -05. The -04 content above went away. This is a surprising change from how tools.ietf.org copy behaves. I'm not sure what to suggest here. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl9aRvwACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXUDAf/XCCnhn+cA0hJfoFp+A8uNmCQsZbuVRIQIG1CXroL/JcQyLAU2N8g6WFT WtPWZByFazQMzc5OuIbg9xEiPQJBMXmJLKqd2zSD5vEUO5xaw9MSri0A3ajksiGm 79tQRh44yAazhfDIq58uDENXu2LMZvrWCqY4pAJZQILYSAFtWjhA4iy85F/2vCSS kxGQeYa1clA/ClCqESNPTyPXZvKLbKqNa0hbdbMScWh+0LolZPRsZ4cHeraV634K S8INlx56TmUhRKFRykpxwWwVGhFWcPzdyrwgDg00Bahs4Vrd1aCKihzhQdAN/FIK kYt27XxgQdDMJUiZUoJggp3nIUag0g== =y+0/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 08:41:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AF443A0911 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:41:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DmLWZcbIj26G for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org (zinfandel.tools.ietf.org [64.170.98.42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA8FB3A09A9 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h-202-242.a357.priv.bahnhof.se ([158.174.202.242]:57333 helo=tannat.localdomain) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOhR-0004IL-9v; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:41:25 -0700 To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> From: Henrik Levkowetz Message-ID: <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:41:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8657.1599751932@localhost> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="E5gxm8GSrpO72bv1021QQeeJHbSNjnMBc" X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 158.174.202.242 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: henrik@levkowetz.com X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:24:06 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:41:28 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --E5gxm8GSrpO72bv1021QQeeJHbSNjnMBc Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="a4LC0x6vcKX77vUOgNoh47AkLu656x3p7"; protected-headers="v1" From: Henrik Levkowetz To: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> In-Reply-To: <8657.1599751932@localhost> --a4LC0x6vcKX77vUOgNoh47AkLu656x3p7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael,=20 On 2020-09-10 17:32, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > I had given a link to a document: > https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-= 04.html >=20 > I thought I was smart and modern to give them the HTML rendered link. > But, two hours later, I found a few stupid typos and posted -05. > The -04 content above went away. This is a surprising change from how > tools.ietf.org copy behaves. The URL path that behaves the same way as tools.ietf.org/id/ is this: https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/ Best regards, Henrik >=20 > I'm not sure what to suggest here. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T cons= ulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 --a4LC0x6vcKX77vUOgNoh47AkLu656x3p7-- --E5gxm8GSrpO72bv1021QQeeJHbSNjnMBc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEifjc5+rnL1MJBcZSTptXS4+7FxoFAl9aSR4ACgkQTptXS4+7 FxoZ4Q/+L0IU1JV+Kmzxmao19BRp//ePkjf4DPGa1n8wyq1vEVsYlWi9KPmzMsDN MTAWh3O6GEIugd11RoXIW4CTdxnRzqZdpeS3zOsxa5rZ59RY+4OWpztKNg5pYC1H I4BeC6syknQnuE7Wpu1BJuq1wmgjierSTEY2Tmp5frHnJvSh6blnRMa7YKbBLVf0 vhoTBV6j+HPEmSOPCJv+LX7cbFo8FXv0mW0nS2F7tQdeqG7BvYSoBplaI05qaxlb tgat29huwgtoWEpwPru00ujV0Tn4QnekvNGuGSQurm1rnY2wll3j55SsdsEedP/H 4ftFQaIk2GIYRevD1UdmpOfTa9a6kd0/WVGMlR8cp35OsO/7b0C4jpqf3n1/Ryqz 0KLX5pSIUSzhLmrh7z/04KYGnrmMcgq8CCd5HuM0kIMU5FhUaxtbztX6FQaUAFcg 1puzsCHBnt5ltelOl+EhQqErlQ74vHAX4g97Ly3hC5+lzJMu/SjxDDVyw4R9VSIR eS9nrX4WlnTBMp6bQbk7iho/MfCrx2Pe62JKasj09vIru3Q0AhJnMf1ElL2HLr65 ELiaRh3dLEtKAua5fPVErtbzGIaHsg9ZFQ45xABoAnaq0P38qS7pz9tL3NWcxzIU ntVq4VF7FNhy3Hym+ZLAN0kq7qPy5gizxa6yiFWtj06aLLpk0D8= =/Tae -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E5gxm8GSrpO72bv1021QQeeJHbSNjnMBc-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 10:21:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E93A3A0EFC; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:21:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id faqjYuPwkdfG; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0974A3A0EEF; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 08AHLgOX072652 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:21:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599758504; bh=u3rSJ50Mjc6Iz1Cbq9mBkPGoHlD0wcjuOXM1bIz8UFY=; h=Subject:From:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To; b=BjCWL4voBIar5VG4UveWYSMtL7D4O+hONNarjM2GWLWfrvtwOAghZPQn/ooD4THsr Js0R4FQ9Jdn2PWm3HEYVMFjEIQLc9XVOmraJWmafuvPgugPInXEksX2eZB+NFibV2c EASo+nx7McwjsoZRCwHB71s5ZwDdAIi5lRuA8rAY= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local From: Robert Sparks To: codesprints@ietf.org, "tools-discuss@ietf.org" References: <7c01a31d-cde7-c070-0f23-e923afdba6ac@nostrum.com> <8a40aa29-0d51-9ab6-7df0-a532130dd94a@nostrum.com> Message-ID: <3970fcda-b0f4-9e2a-0864-d438f040837b@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 12:21:42 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8a40aa29-0d51-9ab6-7df0-a532130dd94a@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Codesprint 108.1 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:21:48 -0000 Given the feedback so far, I'd like to run another quick doodle to make sure we're chosen the best time. The granularity of the original doodle wasn't as fine as it needed to be. Please add yourself to this doodle asap: https://doodle.com/poll/2si7m8gazan4h2ku RjS On 9/9/20 2:52 PM, Robert Sparks wrote: > We will hold a virtual codesprint Friday 25 Sep 2020 at 2000 UTC. > > Information, including webex coordinates, is available at > > > > If you participated in the recent doodle, you've already been added to > the Signup page at > > > > Please feel free to remove yourself if that time became unavailable > for you already. > > If you can participate and are not yet signed up, please add yourself > to that list. > > Thank you for the time you put in on making things better for the IETF > community! > > RjS > > From nobody Thu Sep 10 10:45:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AF043A0BCD for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:45:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JhiKgdAD-BUU for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCC8F3A0E61 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93C7389DD for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id kFSeQ1Oeb9F6 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC7C7389DC for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B5127B for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:45:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:45:41 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Henrik Levkowetz wrote: > On 2020-09-10 17:32, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >> I had given a link to a document: >> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mu= d-04.html >> >> I thought I was smart and modern to give them the HTML rendered link. >> But, two hours later, I found a few stupid typos and posted -05. The >> -04 content above went away. This is a surprising change from how >> tools.ietf.org copy behaves. > The URL path that behaves the same way as tools.ietf.org/id/ is this: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/ okay. "archive" because that's where the draft goes after it's no longer curren= t. 1) Would some kind of 30x redirect make sense? 2) Or maybe a custom 404 error document that suggested maybe look there? {obviously, both are somewhat active content, which may be undesireable} I think that we need to think about how to deal with the many different lin= ks we have. (this is a group question, not a Henrik-only question...) In the meantime, I guess the DT status page is the best way to refer to a document. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl9aZjQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW3vQgAmkQB6iiItRFQp17pIIHtiBulrhWjhz/YMKV/7Wcs2fJJH7dt4eLyPuS5 W1/DP8SJa9ud9NH6oe9ioRY1sVMo0uxgSFU/fPsNw3drZ9J++r//xqTDCXH/4Bik 1orKiOWvyZ9RM3+Fh+l1p3e972t4cKIJovYPpiAEU6IygYWPdniKc9rUo+hmk2u9 jqtqFp5kE7q5pI5zc6NIDX75iznyiydhu/nQmkgk2I15TcuHDJSsMBYTGDRc2khf BYvWEgz3CwC8IRpbF34QvOQFfSsRR+fb+ZDPJPaPSxN1zIeWuiNoBhbNykCyoqrX jDS5cxgaVQ9TSXftN/hsYniAyqu9Gw== =jNoY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 10:50:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7AA33A0AE0 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:50:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hYawbh90VwLU for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 975193A0AF5 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 10:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.102] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BnRHd22lMz10yn; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 19:50:21 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 19:50:20 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 621453020.864936-1f19a70688038bc7c162892543f9ae73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> To: Henrik Levkowetz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:50:26 -0000 > On 2020-09-10, at 17:41, Henrik Levkowetz = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > Hi Michael,=20 >=20 > On 2020-09-10 17:32, Michael Richardson wrote: >>=20 >> I had given a link to a document: >> = https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.h= tml >>=20 >> I thought I was smart and modern to give them the HTML rendered link. >> But, two hours later, I found a few stupid typos and posted -05. >> The -04 content above went away. This is a surprising change from = how >> tools.ietf.org copy behaves. >=20 > The URL path that behaves the same way as tools.ietf.org/id/ is this: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/ Right. A reference to = https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.h= tml currently only gives a generic 404 page. What it maybe should do is a display a switch page that provides a brief = explanation about expiry and replacement of I-Ds and then offers links = to =E2=80=94 the archive page = https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-= mud-04.html =E2=80=94 the current page = https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-05.h= tml (or the RFC), if any Also, we should design most places that give out the = https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.h= tml link to instead give out a timeless link like = https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud.html= (which currently doesn=E2=80=99t work). Cool URIs don=E2=80=99t change: = https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 10 11:16:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EA633A0C2F for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:16:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gsR9MsvNVonY for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF8E73A0BE9 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 08AIGao2091884 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:16:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599761798; bh=syX/pbXBpCtUQDofzZCrIr9RHj3Pxgc8+M7d9Dxskek=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Bau2ThUyCctjqvENwRdI+nYxuqTqL2+TZr7viimQgj59YZwKu7vx5w7ptYWtHH27i im2kxIXPJDHI/BiJNWYtQjW1feCqMFaYJ4hERG8Fy4AT0GvKwf/Q3/NSdUafGBEpN3 LGt8eX8i5Ng5c9rO9VcRW6j4HhBdb33HtH8fwU6g= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:16:36 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:16:41 -0000 Note that the current draft also appears in the archive. The two different pools come from the notions of having an ID-repository, where expired drafts go away, and an ID-archive. Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same time. When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from the repository of active IDs. RjS On 9/10/20 12:50 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> On 2020-09-10, at 17:41, Henrik Levkowetz wrote: >> >> Signed PGP part >> Hi Michael, >> >> On 2020-09-10 17:32, Michael Richardson wrote: >>> I had given a link to a document: >>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.html >>> >>> I thought I was smart and modern to give them the HTML rendered link. >>> But, two hours later, I found a few stupid typos and posted -05. >>> The -04 content above went away. This is a surprising change from how >>> tools.ietf.org copy behaves. >> The URL path that behaves the same way as tools.ietf.org/id/ is this: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/ > Right. A reference to https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.html currently only gives a generic 404 page. > What it maybe should do is a display a switch page that provides a brief explanation about expiry and replacement of I-Ds and then offers links to > > — the archive page https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.html > — the current page https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-05.html (or the RFC), if any > > Also, we should design most places that give out the https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.html link to instead give out a timeless link like https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud.html (which currently doesn’t work). > > Cool URIs don’t change: https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html > > Grüße, Carsten > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org From nobody Thu Sep 10 13:09:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D1D73A0141 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:09:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NjOxiOz6GSE4 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F9193A0113 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8777389CD; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id QZhkgrsALVqs; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9B58389BC; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2627B; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:09:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Robert Sparks cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 20:09:44 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert Sparks wrote: > Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same ti= me. > When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from the > repository of active IDs. The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is removed. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl9aiAMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WW5ZAf/c43CwM74lfuHy9aBup3uTSuj7QJsfbF8lS/cVJIaneHpspMsvbgulpfk 1IB0AMs4L+bh2qBgHFXAPivu/gIL/hpPRwGZ9Uaso6ys6sInH2hxCX2MwooiAMFN 2RlXUKtoXAIQdXP2dTo3uWXC4f74uwKIfWolItzsVlTO20fY9D6jrCoBL0E4PBMi PAA9RsQibDDU9Yv5FT2+jwKQdV9yrzBpDhNycCGqNxgdYlg5TkxQprDflKaVOGjp Y1QrwdR5C3cxwmRJ8my3Wxo6P86/jMThO8SEhwWHIE9VRZGdB6+jTOYmQiQZFs9g lZfxtDsx7BBSx2gQ/0k3lKTu3XzdTw== =wNtv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 13:53:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637BA3A0D84 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:53:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kXZjoL5HFkJ4 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C947D3A0D90 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 08AKrhow045889 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:53:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599771225; bh=SlJwgE/WuTPNRGp0eboawoce/GVHwP6cLzE/ZAfYfMs=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=f2vUlPK5XQ1EGPu3pjrYXW2Zgc8vzOax1XCBceDQ/3bhXQ+QItNKM6dqgMdkU9BK5 Nuke/jCwq+ytkZ4JPv/EhdksakO1QMXMmd/gw9eCghnYwnwHze1TyrhYiMa+OTe7lI UmEVF7n+P9zX2kVMf9PO46H0Mc/iPHPHfFmO6jzU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: Michael Richardson Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:53:43 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7792.1599768579@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 20:53:47 -0000 On 9/10/20 3:09 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > Robert Sparks wrote: > > Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same time. > > > When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from the > > repository of active IDs. > > The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is removed. Can you expand? Why is that surprising? The replaced draft is no longer active. > > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide > > > > From nobody Thu Sep 10 13:57:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA0533A045B for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:57:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4cvI32xl9GuB for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102d.google.com (mail-pj1-x102d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FD983A011B for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102d.google.com with SMTP id t7so623142pjd.3 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:57:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9QDihOBo/5U/X2Pgb1b5Qz5XRarWItEeCLshQ5HU94g=; b=Y6fMkNLMnauhJyvivPcyQieqJNJs3XT7cCBrDznnI9j4wfzXnSUsrLpvsgGMsm98Ch 8IQgCO65vNRkK9MhwGMxcDjSfCGWAol6tTIXuNJWtxVADx1ZTOG1vA3Us2WyEazK5z2N Nv23SWJ/KP0bh8jNBK3yA+1zaDGweaqGk/Xzh3ld16XYmE0hAeIEZQ3k/0rTANB4eydo 5zG/QWnt0xf1jIpShlw1jhSrIi/eaWZKTcn7POxV6myAPFVWxGuzcFKBK3MbloevcadC gmewz/wwm951W2VTAt6TDell1sUtUdAAoj7a03iOmsU482y8LGYD/K++oTIqLFxbGibb s1Cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9QDihOBo/5U/X2Pgb1b5Qz5XRarWItEeCLshQ5HU94g=; b=UFAmodyQlqE7tJPDL9bKbsTw6AF9tFex0N97qU87dcuYtqi6OcYKvUM0lf4W3NUDeF 57E/neFxPFI88QbDXXVoshOMefoU7YC/J3WuGtNrJIsPMnDXImEBwrK2Pz08dg6myiyT tGcY2BlJVUqDuvW+qtCOfbGyip3V+KGkCT+ZS4M9bZF1RULQ+pQIwohkFeD7VCSF4tiO uowKv+xYFVYfMDzRYt9y+BC3viIU4DniXpETLzJaD0NjZDelIi+e9HYykarb7mBLQoYN vIVE3lMvqC5OmF+3+BdUxwN6g1AS18veeogmb7hUjQnAhI1nRhWYM+jO7aFpLesjXLRR Foxg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532invKxiUeBEFsaHeAzH5H+TKl6V6lq+in5Ww7IyYcUGHZjjpip ci+3pRAHl0PeSeQFvwiHWaopVrqrjGE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxiFmvrrFcM2XDd9Ernn2t54Ge2SCxrdw1fPTy85kBZZw8auNiIN/C0PfOgFEJykpYOk5PIrg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:ab91:: with SMTP id n17mr1726570pjq.84.1599771441254; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.138.136]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g23sm6884974pfh.133.2020.09.10.13.57.19 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 13:57:20 -0700 (PDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <45b8a434-d2da-d79f-4ae1-9ad0019a1999@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 08:57:18 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7792.1599768579@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 20:57:34 -0000 An interesting little twist in this problem caught me recently. I resolved to include SVG diagrams in a draft, but not ones that can be represented correctly in ASCII art. So what to put in the .txt format? Well, I thought so cleverly, a pointer to the HTML version would be nice. That's fine as long as the URL for the HTML version works. See the result by looking at draft-carpenter-eligibility-expand-04.txt and trying to look at the figures. (No such problem in the -05 version, until -06 comes out.) Regards Brian On 11-Sep-20 08:09, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > Robert Sparks wrote: > > Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the sam= e time. >=20 > > When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from= the > > repository of active IDs. >=20 > The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is remov= ed. >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T cons= ulting ) > Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 10 14:37:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 149583A09B8 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:37:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R2uBRss0yzgw for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B2183A0924 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:37:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0AF300B70 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:37:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id MUObyYUCOrkO for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 88DF730009B; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:37:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1839414E-0202-4C3F-81DD-6FB53F99CEC7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:37:19 -0400 In-Reply-To: <7792.1599768579@localhost> Cc: Tools Team Discussion To: Michael Richardson References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 21:37:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1839414E-0202-4C3F-81DD-6FB53F99CEC7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Sep 10, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > Robert Sparks wrote: >> Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same = time. >=20 >> When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from the >> repository of active IDs. >=20 > The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is = removed. Michael, this is not new. It has worked this way as long as I have been = involved with the IETF. Russ --Apple-Mail=_1839414E-0202-4C3F-81DD-6FB53F99CEC7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iF0EARECAB0WIQRJuTEKFXbtfFQz5huK5O7Q9ZwRywUCX1qcjwAKCRCK5O7Q9ZwR y9R5AKDkn02DCjZJi3B37npZt9l1JgC5aACffXzTQu/8AeQuNfkdsDMBUBK6Xyw= =7TD3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1839414E-0202-4C3F-81DD-6FB53F99CEC7-- From nobody Thu Sep 10 14:41:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4043A0E4C for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:41:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xOx4ZqNgQJ_U for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E9573A0E19 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.102] (p5089ae91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BnXQh6Hjlz111G; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 23:41:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 23:41:48 +0200 Cc: Michael Richardson , Tools Team Discussion X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 621466908.3838151-0900534449d2cc6f47ef6fdcf02c9952 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3B281EED-CDCE-4025-8C78-7BA689490936@tzi.org> References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost> To: Russ Housley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 21:41:54 -0000 On 2020-09-10, at 23:37, Russ Housley wrote: >=20 > Michael, this is not new. It has worked this way as long as I have = been involved with the IETF. =E2=80=A6 which is probably one of the reasons the tools URIs became the = standard way of doing things. (I still believe my suggestions earlier in the thread are the right way = to handle this.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Thu Sep 10 15:38:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79EC83A0B04 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:38:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HCEMTUwkb21X for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D076E3A0951 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id o5so9114184wrn.13 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=wdZiTpymYvBNdPvgo7EAXl8POOVRVnKqEufbfyJHmIc=; b=j0RdWB3PlmsxhxOyqF6KjJCZ6xdGadvi38JlZ+U6hVGJCKB8Stdk9NrK26ky20w+Vh MC39CWXRQYSzkGbCgkZ7dW4izCwhwiM4Hd0bNwsCmlJjXxR6w6KVuYlG12ExD5rAaJ32 RO+wwYIvUw9GIS087PYEHyW5p0LmBaZOEPLKBADKm3dHQpmi4aSd2H+BzZFzyuWsZljt +90EQTY6JIY8LH//nNV0Qd3tcvj44pYWpzTE19mEvUeB2qTQXDqEE5ciVvT3X+qLg2by 0l4IeSHrfsC2JrQilqVLmQ4x3/E8tNDm3pGKBSnqV8Ma5pGJ6rFeTN9ZrUH11CLwe4gF 3Ang== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=wdZiTpymYvBNdPvgo7EAXl8POOVRVnKqEufbfyJHmIc=; b=K3clRaqZWQAB6VSegHSeG3k2/oLPx6WFwnupGY3jeZO2J0wxHv50gf0hi8uW9YYPOY B7x08FGKowwx3YK/SJCVelPiYPPFKSKYu79afr4ahVGlPSXvl9lj7SSt7Y6lbfU6Gulg tCQeyYoeCxiNpdi+STIfhxTsi4+x1LE4P//6WIYcTjlcUeMZ16EDee/eid1RsFcaUO88 2z0SZSJc1i3Cii2ELukItUgOjl+jgOiLgv1zie0QaaOkpKjBmJZQcLGSiN8b6q9zoGQp rSTSnXSTPnJvIEEUTK29xpkZlXbK3EAZ7r1aTBgOPmFNhjqZLUtpGhdThNgTGo4iD4kc vUrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5329YvN0j9y3qE87Kd6oRadGsNL9z+fLrO3RA/hIVup8Hie8mOzR 0oLBnNW4TIdo9d7dMJtycZjj/M2LlD61bw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyiMfUltIMwjVvSzLXcJuaSDdknmOmtU9RHiYDlQbYntC+OmXepZzPn7zcoQ0uTyqtDzHXMvA== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:494b:: with SMTP id r11mr11129507wrs.227.1599777493997; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o6sm515762wrm.76.2020.09.10.15.38.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:38:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <5B0C691F-EA59-44E9-959F-52445CA58314@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_096E3104-385A-4899-AF2F-3E7353B034C1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:38:08 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3B281EED-CDCE-4025-8C78-7BA689490936@tzi.org> To: Tools Team Discussion References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost> <3B281EED-CDCE-4025-8C78-7BA689490936@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 22:38:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_096E3104-385A-4899-AF2F-3E7353B034C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Somewhat related to disappearing IDs. We had a w.g. draft expire = today. It disappeared from https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted w.g. = drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they expire. = They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won=E2=80=99t need to do another = adoption call). Can this be fixed? Bob > On Sep 10, 2020, at 2:41 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2020-09-10, at 23:37, Russ Housley wrote: >>=20 >> Michael, this is not new. It has worked this way as long as I have = been involved with the IETF. >=20 > =E2=80=A6 which is probably one of the reasons the tools URIs became = the standard way of doing things. >=20 > (I still believe my suggestions earlier in the thread are the right = way to handle this.) >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >=20 > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org >=20 > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_096E3104-385A-4899-AF2F-3E7353B034C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl9aqtAACgkQrut0EXfn u6jd4gf+O6p8o8DR6CKSDAb3idAekoeUcGQfqU9hJBRttRy3DzayWlOqMeqeNt9N KLr8upl6kGmDLRPKxSHsfXDGdlF2n3Bb1iC3p1rNDCl/wS2BVChyw80mtKzVT4B5 hvieYnJ8rYGQ9c6Xh9aEVM5biLPAlvih69ZQpIHhjQO3wFQUrdrU3NuqD64U0xjh Eu3vpTEy0cBsRfQyekjeIOvIj8G2W4qvu3qK4+jXv+CugbdvvFXL1l9FndKBaiXz 5I44RJN28sjTQmE1Mwx0KaebTafQgxsGjD26KwqTwP1vvCkAfCNDLsBBnzg8HQal tar7DP316lwQKjci7IhHUlDHJ5lfDA== =hMiq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_096E3104-385A-4899-AF2F-3E7353B034C1-- From nobody Fri Sep 11 02:25:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CE8D3A0CAE for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 02:25:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rtgGiKPlkBRw for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 02:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7074A3A0CA5 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 02:25:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1599816312; bh=pEp0dKSO/ynge0P282vM4hyIpowGDwtPsIVAyi9JP/4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=FcBi82VkuDKvCSyojUI071tnGH3DiU0r5PseyJi4wn4JZK6eW3A/QJKweD8GPN5nv iOV8OjWO5opuhp+MK9+PT1XQ3+2gAS4x23VTkzwtSvjdjqJJWm1FusiqeKL0R8Y54t 8kecQkES5KWwe33HUSM4hMOuMHf8B/3KFmMzwaz0= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.124] ([84.171.154.81]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N2mFY-1kg50G208C-0136oU for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 11:25:12 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 11:25:09 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:C/rzpliaoDLdqXW1WSPkFyTH2uVjdqPGbgPXcwY2XOQR6OO3PwS kH5wZVzP5Ck/q9Kojd6oqEPzVO1371RaXZ6trsSNSkDyVfmkmzT6qSCybZF4Q3PNpmQfKMW HyhWYXkPRJOiZJSl26jjYi3MPqIN1+Lv2ysulE0XkFrM+N8x++/c63CObNEjbQO9bDvPtJ5 DOscY52MGgpU95k6vwQjA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:pLkDswPcEDk=:6fELCHRGrPQZo/nBQ12hVg PCFiB491g4GrEFPXVGjwl0thIlGCKZ8SPoLD2U3+kh/VUFS1eQWv2jCld5pMN0va+Dvi4sePI /bdjCy27zwd4Boz3IdB63M4v1n1DhW/DesR/vRBcMGJMuxxvYK7Hu6kAoQaV8v4y/7Qn9HMND I8/nmAzpmt69qi4jklGl/iY6riyLFpG7hTlIoC8Gdx5rhgfYrMuIwLw+iCaIIzjioJbt2c2bg Hh3i0EfoIZnC3xKaEwuoLTsqRlqKbXJJ2tV5JRonYpCCzl9ua/k64SdH0h2RglEjGfpsOwM3H u8uZ2sMHGVKss+cZXH3um3ckRhQN+fWLevFx9MwnvA1RvDwUHoqe1gt4C84iE7aZuumM9pRPO Ui2tDsUdFSbsRKWWwhkyCsyglaFbeus58g6ktTfmlR61VtPbR2+SRXqoHRVL44H7bnoWjzySP 0FK8jRRLcKt87DTUB5pzMTy0jD2nX7jFDjy917M+7+Lcs863/2JSqRAD0o2FJ12Ro+zjzvKXb QpRy2xbC2yh16jyF5LuuJ4AI5eMuAP0W1FqbJiiMOVRTmMelaOw3OmTXtTZ8KdBjW9aQse10Q r1/Ru1lGfebfVIGUIk90RtznMSF3v42QqReMbOUgyc3lhBGj3l3c7PKmbKU1QL7euzHTg2aC5 RXeymebaQsVnbbFlFy5bQKSr9PTgoCH7TZxalrgkPr1NiMBthd+rtT7Ll6O/OShj5NgXOJRsk qkHzIGj2GX5/WiCiPB/tJN0JVQxzA0PqIKbJh/wINTy1tejF5JtPwR/GPv8iQhjt8bpGU+/Yy BuwvSxSXNjdGqO9HxgQI8pJLCzjED6G956sD4Xk3ns2hdjNY27zhr3Vr8FcayR9WkGqv43NYB GOpw9p3AmCdyv0On1pbKm42nuaI2kr+ghr2Xoolo0GsdZGhbGSZrMKFowCcBXT+tsqM7Jrxxk VNQKxXF1HOfl7HCa/GMg6aelM2Oin6K0APxJwo2vRgaVvRdixwSZhZXi3hk+tB7JD3gsgIvaL 4woiTaP/ao7NwW9lKez32rqVV2d7PP+qXm4MHcjU8nodO5p11TbvFliuUsz/gtd2U1A6dGZx4 6IrsHh0QggG0R+PPa82tY+RFLpzuuo8Orw3jcokoOw384GQ7FYnjPfhuLibmpXqWbGrv6SjuV IISBfYqXP+B0EP96OLE8fkxujTz1x2vIe5RLoIcESsh3QsBushtXZja6VSK2qNwHPl9bEefWq UlnRXloUR3UvNDgvVSgsYEq2r7ulk5hrBcoPcZg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:25:21 -0000 Am 10.09.2020 um 19:50 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > ... > Right. A reference to https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-s= ecurehomegateway-mud-04.html currently only gives a generic 404 page. > What it maybe should do is a display a switch page that provides a brief= explanation about expiry and replacement of I-Ds and then offers links to > > =E2=80=94 the archive page https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-richard= son-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.html > =E2=80=94 the current page https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-opsa= wg-securehomegateway-mud-05.html (or the RFC), if any > > Also, we should design most places that give out the https://www.ietf.or= g/id/draft-richardson-opsawg-securehomegateway-mud-04.html link to instead= give out a timeless link like https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-richardson-op= sawg-securehomegateway-mud.html (which currently doesn=E2=80=99t work). > > Cool URIs don=E2=80=99t change: https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.ht= ml > ... +1 That said, we absolutely need a stable URI template for HTML versions of *any* draft, be it current or expired, and no matter whether it was generated as v3 HTML output or just htmlized. Otherwise, a formatter does not have sufficient information what links to generate for "deep links" into internet drafts, or in references. This is likely the reason why xml2rfc still generates links to tools.ietf.org, although www.ietf.org has the "modern" HTML version. (and the same is true for rfc2629.xslt, but here the default can be overriden on a case-by-case basis). Best regards, Julian From nobody Fri Sep 11 05:50:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218413A0C22 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 05:50:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4dZ6v93MkmYw for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR03-DB5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr40051.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.4.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 603873A0BFC for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HE1PR0702MB3772.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ea45f77c-6feb-43e9-7560-08d856513c79 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Sep 2020 12:50:17.9058 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: NL7qIpcKJBaTDzbeg4Dat+yh3MTsIEHg+8C7caBfCaOZ6m895yva8c3CavndecznUIYaD+h7J8+6bfEkjCKpFTbOFQG7FMtYXIAZiDa0V/8= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0702MB3625 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Datatracker question: Replacing in Draft upload X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:50:22 -0000 SGksDQoNCkkgd2FzIGF0dGVtcHRpbmcgdG8gdGVsbCB0aGUgZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIgdGhhdCBhIHN1 Ym1pc3Npb24gb2YgYW4gaW5kaXZpZHVhbCAtMDANCndhcyByZXBsYWNpbmcgYW5vdGhlciBpbmRp dmlkdWFsIGRyYWZ0IGF0IHN1Ym1pc3Npb24uIEFuIGV4dHJhIGRpbWVuc2lvbiBoZXJlIGlzDQp0 aGF0IEkgd2FzIG5vdCBvcmlnaW5hbGx5IGFuIGF1dGhvciBvZiB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgSSB3YXMg ZW50ZXJpbmcgYXMgYmVlaW5nDQpyZXBsYWNlZCBieS4gDQoNClRoZSBlZmZlY3QgSSBnb3Qgd2Fz IHRoYXQgdGhlIC0wMCB3YXMgcG9zdGVkIHdpdGhvdXQgdGhlIHJlcGxhY2VtZW50DQppbmZvcm1h dGlvbi4gSSBhbHNvIGdvdCBhbiBlbWFpbCB3aXRoIHRoZSBiZWxvdyBjb250ZW50LiBJIGZpbmQg dGhlICJOb25lDQppbnN0ZWFkIG9mIE5vbmUiIHNvIEkgY2xlYXJseSBtYW5hZ2VkIHRvIHRyaWdn ZXIgdGhlIGNvZGUtcGF0aCBmb3IgcmVwbGFjZW1lbnQNCmluZm9ybWF0aW9uLiANCg0KSS1EOiA8 ZHJhZnQta3VlaGxld2luZC1tYXNxdWUtcHJveHktZGlzY292ZXJ5LTAwLnR4dD4NCkRhdGF0cmFj a2VyIFVSTDogDQpodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1rdWVobGV3 aW5kLW1hc3F1ZS1wcm94eS1kaXNjb3ZlcnkvDQoNClRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgbm93IHJlcGxhY2Vz IE5vbmUgaW5zdGVhZCBvZiBOb25lDQoNCg0KSXMgdGhpcyBpbnRlbmRlZCB0byB3b3JrPyBJIHdh cyBleHBlY3RpbmcgdGhhdCBhbiBhcHByb3ZhbCB3b3VsZCBnbyB0byB0aGUNCm9yaWdpbmFsIGF1 dGhvciBwcmlvciB0byBhY2NlcHRpbmcgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGxpa2Ugd2hhdCBoYXBwZW5zIHdo ZW4geW91IGFkZA0KYW4gYXV0aG9yIGluIGEgbGF0ZXIgdmVyc2lvbi4gDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSB1c2Vk IG15IEFEIHBvd2VycyB0byBwdXQgaW4gdGhpcyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpbnRvIHRoZSBkYXRhdHJh Y2tlciBhbnl3YXkNCmFmdGVyIGl0IHdhcyBwb3N0ZWQuIA0KDQpDaGVlcnMNCg0KTWFnbnVzIFdl c3Rlcmx1bmQgDQoNCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KTmV0d29ya3MsIEVyaWNzc29uIFJlc2VhcmNo DQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQpFcmljc3NvbiBBQiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgfCBQaG9uZSAgKzQ2 IDEwIDcxNDgyODcNClRvcnNoYW1uc2dhdGFuIDIzICAgICAgICAgICB8IE1vYmlsZSArNDYgNzMg MDk0OTA3OQ0KU0UtMTY0IDgwIFN0b2NraG9sbSwgU3dlZGVuIHwgbWFpbHRvOiBtYWdudXMud2Vz dGVybHVuZEBlcmljc3Nvbi5jb20NCi0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCg0K From nobody Fri Sep 11 06:36:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259383A098C for ; 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Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.161] (pool-141-156-161-153.washdc.fios.verizon.net [141.156.161.153]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B0CC0300AA8; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:36:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Russ Housley Message-Id: <41EEFFCD-DEB9-4950-95B1-F43ACC73CAF1@vigilsec.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_67C570D7-1593-4C4E-895B-CE473F76A733"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:36:21 -0400 In-Reply-To: <5B0C691F-EA59-44E9-959F-52445CA58314@gmail.com> Cc: Tools Team Discussion To: Bob Hinden References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost> <3B281EED-CDCE-4025-8C78-7BA689490936@tzi.org> <5B0C691F-EA59-44E9-959F-52445CA58314@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 13:36:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_67C570D7-1593-4C4E-895B-CE473F76A733 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >=20 > Somewhat related to disappearing IDs. We had a w.g. draft expire = today. It disappeared from >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ >=20 > The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted w.g. = drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they expire. = They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won=E2=80=99t need to do another = adoption call). >=20 > Can this be fixed? >=20 > Bob There is no need for an additional call for adoption. When the revision = is posted, it will appear in the list. Russ --Apple-Mail=_67C570D7-1593-4C4E-895B-CE473F76A733 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iF0EARECAB0WIQRJuTEKFXbtfFQz5huK5O7Q9ZwRywUCX1t9VQAKCRCK5O7Q9ZwR yxBQAKCeCoOjxyKF46tyvyZ8fSlPb8bzZACeMja2ESCmQ6Ew5R4svrzNDAb0bcc= =v2Do -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_67C570D7-1593-4C4E-895B-CE473F76A733-- From nobody Fri Sep 11 07:31:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910743A0A25 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:30:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P0bNlDIc5DtY for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D3283A0A07 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id x14so11667850wrl.12 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:30:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=WAoFSQ3uHqHvW3SIQMWi1+fhku1TGmkeubx3vctEqoI=; b=YrihCQtHxzcb067Nt6YEayIjFzmpykWwbwyor7/AVV/R2LvSRA/Nt7GVyhs+OvlfZA c6qcqvGN/+nri7a7eNOQfSbfuxrNbQhHO7ZK0HrlvbXI9JnpVGQFc8Jrt8MzKI18lyYM y5ePMP8LQkh3K8sFPiAhjzHyY9VVG/7k9wviNH4LRUf2H4kSglaboAoHowosL1LKSmi8 eob5EYbJy9t7ok8nNg/SeL/nxAsC53g0kDaI6pcz1tDq3gBG43AF6nPZtuC4lsR3+D7l BWin2aNmoQIPxML/JYcvZN3dIbxNx3gAyCar9btmtb4Zko+59QIu0oVOI+ew5W18lXxI TEiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=WAoFSQ3uHqHvW3SIQMWi1+fhku1TGmkeubx3vctEqoI=; b=Q2ct4D5VV/Vc/HBTUDOU5nsf0wWSdPNUYGt7+76TXCJPHiLxHkQJS7s00VV8qS1E0V HBTK4oAHyuAGazmYGBm4yg8qx0txo7UkrsP4c5ggTyA7Xv9N32Rb0I6U6+mv8IEwj+dG 7tVW2N8ZB7lzlDRUb/61pQVLVdQ8SOD9bmPgjcY4W5QB8mUAXLglCWcP5e2OuFpeq0ft 9tD2cNaf0geuXHzEHEnkvkFZyu9ZX93A4b0ir40zhS6gqfRFDtuFkZghWLrgCZ9Ttbyd YwBgOsCxNjEp7DlLlazeSRgZivMs+yDCCLdlmhal8kE1g9FMeAnHyBSA9aAHZfrDdG5W 9SSg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531xamj0z75pNcb/7VsqDAJNlV6ccKgLKt5FmgvVrJM1W9+ETGdB vPyIy2KAkwahwfBXwpT/8Ms= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwXSnTu/xg/8nTq+2x5NJxu5xi7cCW3mAqAx7QtjkT/CNunpMX8o2c+dQSTeVzO+S6R3FQlQA== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4a0c:: with SMTP id m12mr2391956wrq.83.1599834656280; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.199] (c-24-5-53-184.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [24.5.53.184]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m185sm4889745wmf.5.2020.09.11.07.30.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:30:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <2F82E43A-39CF-4C99-BE9E-CD84D2BE21B3@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1F634047-E5F3-4A26-AC1A-7F881DD466EF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.15\)) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:30:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: <41EEFFCD-DEB9-4950-95B1-F43ACC73CAF1@vigilsec.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , Tools Team Discussion To: Russ Housley References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost> <3B281EED-CDCE-4025-8C78-7BA689490936@tzi.org> <5B0C691F-EA59-44E9-959F-52445CA58314@gmail.com> <41EEFFCD-DEB9-4950-95B1-F43ACC73CAF1@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.15) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:31:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1F634047-E5F3-4A26-AC1A-7F881DD466EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Russ, > On Sep 11, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Russ Housley = wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> Somewhat related to disappearing IDs. We had a w.g. draft expire = today. It disappeared from >>=20 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ >>=20 >> The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted w.g. = drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they expire. = They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won=E2=80=99t need to do another = adoption call). >>=20 >> Can this be fixed? >>=20 >> Bob >=20 > There is no need for an additional call for adoption. When the = revision is posted, it will appear in the list. I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the = w.g. status page. Once adopted they have official status. I think we = do this for drafts sent to the IESG. Bob >=20 > Russ --Apple-Mail=_1F634047-E5F3-4A26-AC1A-7F881DD466EF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl9bihoACgkQrut0EXfn u6isZwf/b29328FfgnOYHUOSWAAiQZUEDIG5XtwmgeNC8GuieK/tVgx9QRIyd9Yf iYvggWdhj9Up+hbTGznx/DrIv0T2Bp2sPR5GgcooaulJm8qZOTKL8miy2SGE2Lik 3nMNEl+HDYn4cWb//j2LKQJZ3MzwwQbHPZVM6uJtthelAIEYv6TlofR1thnhjLUH gYcfOtVStLXn8IamdgxHwfoRNzCK6+crszPiYzpWkbu0D0xrsP8QwN6yesSEsbYJ u6k4boJ7a5KcbKtkOrSJoVo+cTJSpMma4qYaWLJOTz4kfa9b7bE85ojOSw07578/ 90hW4b45WVwmBNYxKy+tPCLrrryTRQ== =h4Qt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1F634047-E5F3-4A26-AC1A-7F881DD466EF-- From nobody Fri Sep 11 07:54:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E1E3A0CCE for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.948, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iZl2aADqNvru for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA39B3A0B8E for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 07:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unescapeable.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 08BErvrq007631 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:53:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1599836039; bh=OgBY0Uh3+zRv2iwDsM7ZDUp7fms9mu0/1NQUCCnXkSw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=b55uS7j+czxqDMuq/6nXxGfPQ8Yvs4DwYroc+gnmvXV7OdqGxsTLl79WOqOd36vB/ gNgRSkuhcxI0RDCMsKMmiHS1/HyRXIx/UmQZqHS3GO5WhLiw1o0e5g+0HrD/Wco+HC NddAXOsmGsFFa1Z4Zx7xCeP4XfhknMSxcDW/pZAc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be unescapeable.local To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost> <3B281EED-CDCE-4025-8C78-7BA689490936@tzi.org> <5B0C691F-EA59-44E9-959F-52445CA58314@gmail.com> <41EEFFCD-DEB9-4950-95B1-F43ACC73CAF1@vigilsec.com> <2F82E43A-39CF-4C99-BE9E-CD84D2BE21B3@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <14566416-6243-eb2b-067d-fa76580ea003@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:53:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2F82E43A-39CF-4C99-BE9E-CD84D2BE21B3@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4CE88B2786AF5E97ADBBE080" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org] X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:54:09 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4CE88B2786AF5E97ADBBE080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've created https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/3078 On 9/11/20 9:30 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: > Russ, > >> On Sep 11, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Russ Housley wrote: >> >>> Somewhat related to disappearing IDs. We had a w.g. draft expire today. It disappeared from >>> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/ >>> >>> The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted w.g. drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they expire. They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won’t need to do another adoption call). >>> >>> Can this be fixed? >>> >>> Bob >> There is no need for an additional call for adoption. When the revision is posted, it will appear in the list. > I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the w.g. status page. Once adopted they have official status. I think we do this for drafts sent to the IESG. > > Bob > >> Russ > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org --------------4CE88B2786AF5E97ADBBE080 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I've created https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/3078

On 9/11/20 9:30 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:
Russ,


On Sep 11, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote:


Somewhat related to disappearing IDs.   We had a w.g. draft expire today.  It disappeared from

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/

The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted w.g. drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they expire.  They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won’t need to do another adoption call).

Can this be fixed?

Bob

There is no need for an additional call for adoption.  When the revision is posted, it will appear in the list.

I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the w.g. status page.   Once adopted they have official status.  I think we do this for drafts sent to the IESG.

Bob


Russ


      

      

      
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From: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org]
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Note the comment I added.

Right now if a group abandons a draft, the current behavior (where the 
draft disappears when it expires) could be considered a feature.

With the change, chairs will have to be more careful about explicitly 
marking abandoned drafts.

RjS

On 9/11/20 9:53 AM, Robert Sparks wrote:
>
> I've created https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/3078
>
> On 9/11/20 9:30 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:
>> Russ,
>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Russ Housley  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Somewhat related to disappearing IDs.   We had a w.g. draft expire today.  It disappeared from
>>>>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/
>>>>
>>>> The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted w.g. drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they expire.  They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won’t need to do another adoption call).
>>>>
>>>> Can this be fixed?
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>> There is no need for an additional call for adoption.  When the revision is posted, it will appear in the list.
>> I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the w.g. status page.   Once adopted they have official status.  I think we do this for drafts sent to the IESG.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> Russ
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs athttp://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email todatatracker-project@ietf.org
>>
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email towebmaster@tools.ietf.org
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

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Note the comment I added.

    
Right now if a group abandons a draft, the current behavior
      (where the draft disappears when it expires) could be considered a
      feature.

    
With the change, chairs will have to be more careful about
      explicitly marking abandoned drafts.

    
RjS

    

    
On 9/11/20 9:53 AM, Robert Sparks
      wrote:

    

    

      
      
I've created https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/3078

      
On 9/11/20 9:30 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:

      

      

        
Russ,



        

          
On Sep 11, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> wrote:



          

            
Somewhat related to disappearing IDs.   We had a w.g. draft expire today.  It disappeared from

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/

The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted w.g. drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they expire.  They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won’t need to do another adoption call).

Can this be fixed?

Bob


          

          
There is no need for an additional call for adoption.  When the revision is posted, it will appear in the list.


        

        
I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the w.g. status page.   Once adopted they have official status.  I think we do this for drafts sent to the IESG.

Bob



        

          
Russ


        

        

        

        
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Robert Sparks  wrote:
    >> Robert Sparks  wrote:
    >> > Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same=
 time.
    >>
    >> > When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from =
the
    >> > repository of active IDs.
    >>
    >> The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is
    >removed.

    > Can you expand? Why is that surprising? The replaced draft is no long=
er
    > active.

It's a behaviour change.

Yes, but
  1) it hasn't expired.!!
  2) there is no redirect, just a 404.
  3) old documents stuck around on tools.ietf.org, so the links didn't go
     stale,but the header would say that it was not the most recent draft.

rfcdiff could never work if we removed replaced drafts.
In fact, we keep the expired ones around forever, which certainly helps us
with rfcdiff!

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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Russ Housley  wrote:
    >>> When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from t=
he
    >>> repository of active IDs.
    >>
    >> The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is re=
moved.

    > Michael, this is not new.  It has worked this way as long as I have b=
een involved with the IETF.

from the FTP/rsync site, yes, sorta.
If you were coming that way, then you'd get a directory listing, showing the
replacement draft next to it.

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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On 9/11/20 11:29 AM, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Robert Sparks  wrote:
>      >> Robert Sparks  wrote:
>      >> > Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same time.
>      >>
>      >> > When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from the
>      >> > repository of active IDs.
>      >>
>      >> The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is
>      >removed.
>
>      > Can you expand? Why is that surprising? The replaced draft is no longer
>      > active.
>
> It's a behaviour change.
No - it's been that way for years.
>
> Yes, but
>    1) it hasn't expired.!!
>    2) there is no redirect, just a 404.
>    3) old documents stuck around on tools.ietf.org, so the links didn't go
>       stale,but the header would say that it was not the most recent draft.
>
> rfcdiff could never work if we removed replaced drafts.
> In fact, we keep the expired ones around forever, which certainly helps us
> with rfcdiff!

So - use /archive/id/

That tree has exactly all the properties you are asking for.

>
> --
> Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
>             Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>
>
>
>


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To: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org]
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Robert,

> On Sep 11, 2020, at 8:20 AM, Robert Sparks  =
wrote:
>=20
> Note the comment I added.
>=20
> Right now if a group abandons a draft, the current behavior (where the =
draft disappears when it expires) could be considered a feature.
>=20
> With the change, chairs will have to be more careful about explicitly =
marking abandoned drafts.

I agree, with this change they will see the abandoned drafts in the list =
of w.g. drafts and will be reminded to formally abandon them.

Bob


>=20
> RjS
>=20
> On 9/11/20 9:53 AM, Robert Sparks wrote:
>> I've created https://trac.tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb/ticket/3078
>>=20
>> On 9/11/20 9:30 AM, Bob Hinden wrote:
>>> Russ,
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Sep 11, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Russ Housley 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> Somewhat related to disappearing IDs.   We had a w.g. draft expire =
today.  It disappeared from
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted =
w.g. drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they =
expire.  They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won=E2=80=99t need to =
do another adoption call).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Can this be fixed?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>=20
>>>> There is no need for an additional call for adoption.  When the =
revision is posted, it will appear in the list.
>>>>=20
>>> I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the =
w.g. status page.   Once adopted they have official status.  I think we =
do this for drafts sent to the IESG.
>>>=20
>>> Bob
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Russ
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ___________________________________________________________
>>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>>>=20
>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>>> bugs at
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>>>=20
>>> or send email to
>>> datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>>>=20
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>>>=20
>>> or send email to
>>> webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>>=20
>>=20
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>>=20
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>=20
>>=20
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>> bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>>=20
>> or send email to
>> datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>>=20
>> or send email to
>> webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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>=20
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org
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I wanted to point out that when 6MAN did the update to the IPv6 spec =
that became RFC8200, each new draft incorporated one specific updating =
RFC.    This made it easy to see what the changes were.   Having each =
draft available was very helpful to see the changes and see what the =
diffs were from the previous draft.  In this case, a new draft was not =
replacing the previous draft.  This work was done in 2015-2017.

I hope this is still possible.

Bob



> On Sep 11, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Michael Richardson =
 wrote:
>=20
> Signed PGP part
>=20
> Robert Sparks  wrote:
>>> Robert Sparks  wrote:
>>>> Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same =
time.
>>>=20
>>>> When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from =
the
>>>> repository of active IDs.
>>>=20
>>> The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is
>> removed.
>=20
>> Can you expand? Why is that surprising? The replaced draft is no =
longer
>> active.
>=20
> It's a behaviour change.
>=20
> Yes, but
>  1) it hasn't expired.!!
>  2) there is no redirect, just a 404.
>  3) old documents stuck around on tools.ietf.org, so the links didn't =
go
>     stale,but the header would say that it was not the most recent =
draft.
>=20
> rfcdiff could never work if we removed replaced drafts.
> In fact, we keep the expired ones around forever, which certainly =
helps us
> with rfcdiff!
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T =
consulting )
>           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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On 9/11/20 12:25 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:
> I wanted to point out that when 6MAN did the update to the IPv6 spec that became RFC8200, each new draft incorporated one specific updating RFC.    This made it easy to see what the changes were.   Having each draft available was very helpful to see the changes and see what the diffs were from the previous draft.  In this case, a new draft was not replacing the previous draft.  This work was done in 2015-2017.
>
> I hope this is still possible.
Yes. There hasn't actually been a change.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>> On Sep 11, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Michael Richardson  wrote:
>>
>> Signed PGP part
>>
>> Robert Sparks  wrote:
>>>> Robert Sparks  wrote:
>>>>> Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same time.
>>>>> When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from the
>>>>> repository of active IDs.
>>>> The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is
>>> removed.
>>> Can you expand? Why is that surprising? The replaced draft is no longer
>>> active.
>> It's a behaviour change.
>>
>> Yes, but
>>   1) it hasn't expired.!!
>>   2) there is no redirect, just a 404.
>>   3) old documents stuck around on tools.ietf.org, so the links didn't go
>>      stale,but the header would say that it was not the most recent draft.
>>
>> rfcdiff could never work if we removed replaced drafts.
>> In fact, we keep the expired ones around forever, which certainly helps us
>> with rfcdiff!
>>
>> --
>> Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
>>            Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

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On 9/11/20 12:25 PM, Bob Hinden wrote:

    

    

      
I wanted to point out that when 6MAN did the update to the IPv6 spec that became RFC8200, each new draft incorporated one specific updating RFC.    This made it easy to see what the changes were.   Having each draft available was very helpful to see the changes and see what the diffs were from the previous draft.  In this case, a new draft was not replacing the previous draft.  This work was done in 2015-2017.

I hope this is still possible.

    

    Yes. There hasn't actually been a change.

    

      

Bob





      

        
On Sep 11, 2020, at 9:29 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

Signed PGP part

Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:


        

          

            
Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com> wrote:


            

              
Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same time.


            

            

            

              
When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from the
repository of active IDs.


            

            
The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is


          

          
removed.


        

        

        

          
Can you expand? Why is that surprising? The replaced draft is no longer
active.


        

        
It's a behaviour change.

Yes, but
 1) it hasn't expired.!!
 2) there is no redirect, just a 404.
 3) old documents stuck around on tools.ietf.org, so the links didn't go
    stale,but the header would say that it was not the most recent draft.

rfcdiff could never work if we removed replaced drafts.
In fact, we keep the expired ones around forever, which certainly helps us
with rfcdiff!

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
          Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide








      

      

      

      

      
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Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
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or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


    

  


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From: Russ Housley 
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Cc: Tools Team Discussion 
To: Bob Hinden 
References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost>  <3B281EED-CDCE-4025-8C78-7BA689490936@tzi.org> <5B0C691F-EA59-44E9-959F-52445CA58314@gmail.com> <41EEFFCD-DEB9-4950-95B1-F43ACC73CAF1@vigilsec.com> <2F82E43A-39CF-4C99-BE9E-CD84D2BE21B3@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org]
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>>> Somewhat related to disappearing IDs.   We had a w.g. draft expire =
today.  It disappeared from
>>>=20
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6man/documents/
>>>=20
>>> The authors are working on an update, but I think that adopted w.g. =
drafts should not disappear from the w.g. document page if they expire.  =
They are still w.g. drafts (that is, we won=E2=80=99t need to do another =
adoption call).
>>>=20
>>> Can this be fixed?
>>>=20
>>> Bob
>>=20
>> There is no need for an additional call for adoption.  When the =
revision is posted, it will appear in the list.
>=20
> I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the =
w.g. status page.   Once adopted they have official status.  I think we =
do this for drafts sent to the IESG.

I disagree.  If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there.

Russ


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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Robert Sparks , tools-discuss@ietf.org
In-Reply-To: 
References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost>  <18358.1599841799@localhost> 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org
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Robert Sparks  wrote:
    >> It's a behaviour change.

    > No - it's been that way for years.

Yes, I appreciate that the www.ietf.org links acted that way.
But, www.ietf.org didn't have HTML rendering from HTML "for years"
The DT pointed at tools.ietf.org for many things, and those URLs didn't exp=
ire.

    >> Yes, but
    >> 1) it hasn't expired.!!
    >> 2) there is no redirect, just a 404.
    >> 3) old documents stuck around on tools.ietf.org, so the links didn't=
 go
    >> stale,but the header would say that it was not the most recent draft.
    >>
    >> rfcdiff could never work if we removed replaced drafts.
    >> In fact, we keep the expired ones around forever, which certainly he=
lps us
    >> with rfcdiff!

    > So - use /archive/id/

So, then can we please point to that URL in the DT?

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Russ Housley , Bob Hinden , Tools Team Discussion 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org]
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Russ Housley  wrote:
    >>> There is no need for an additional call for adoption.  When the rev=
ision is posted, it will appear in the list.
    >>
    >> I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the=
 w.g. status page.   Once adopted they have official status.  I think we do=
 this for drafts sent to the IESG.

    > I disagree.  If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there.

We are asking that it be in the list, marked as expired.
Chairs can remove it from the list, if it is abandonned.
Otherwise, they can bug authors to either update, or abandon.

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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To: Michael Richardson , Robert Sparks , tools-discuss@ietf.org
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From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:38:40 +1200
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org
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On 12-Sep-20 07:16, Michael Richardson wrote:
>=20
> Robert Sparks  wrote:
>     >> It's a behaviour change.
>=20
>     > No - it's been that way for years.
>=20
> Yes, I appreciate that the www.ietf.org links acted that way.
> But, www.ietf.org didn't have HTML rendering from HTML "for years"
> The DT pointed at tools.ietf.org for many things, and those URLs didn't=
 expire.

Well, yes, that's the change and (IMNSHO) the proof that the tracker has
always had it wrong, as far as user convenience goes.

This isn't really a tools-discuss problem, since the datatracker is simpl=
y
doing what RFC2026 implies, i.e. disappearing a draft when it is replaced=
:

"At any time, an
 Internet-Draft may be replaced by a more recent version of the same
 specification, restarting the six-month timeout period...
 ...Internet-Drafts have no formal status, and are
 subject to change or removal at any time."

So don't request a change in the datatracker, request a change in RFC2026=
=2E
Something like "Replaced or expired drafts are retained as a record of
discussion and for verification of prior art claims."

  Brian




>=20
>     >> Yes, but
>     >> 1) it hasn't expired.!!
>     >> 2) there is no redirect, just a 404.
>     >> 3) old documents stuck around on tools.ietf.org, so the links di=
dn't go
>     >> stale,but the header would say that it was not the most recent d=
raft.
>     >>
>     >> rfcdiff could never work if we removed replaced drafts.
>     >> In fact, we keep the expired ones around forever, which certainl=
y helps us
>     >> with rfcdiff!
>=20
>     > So - use /archive/id/
>=20
> So, then can we please point to that URL in the DT?
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T cons=
ulting )
>            Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>=20
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
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> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
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>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20


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To: Michael Richardson , Russ Housley , Bob Hinden , Tools Team Discussion 
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From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:47:59 +1200
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org]
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On 12-Sep-20 07:17, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Russ Housley  wrote:
>     >>> There is no need for an additional call for adoption.  When the revision is posted, it will appear in the list.
>     >>
>     >> I knew that, but I would like to see w.g. drafts not time out on the w.g. status page.   Once adopted they have official status.  I think we do this for drafts sent to the IESG.
> 
>     > I disagree.  If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there.
> 
> We are asking that it be in the list, marked as expired.
> Chairs can remove it from the list, if it is abandonned.
> Otherwise, they can bug authors to either update, or abandon.

Yes. Robert's note on the ticket is correct. A common case (I've experienced
it as an author quite recently) is that WG discussion has subsided, the draft
is probably not ready for WGLC, and the authors have had other priorities.
The expiry event is useful because it wakes up the authors and chairs, but
the document needs to stay visible until a decision is taken to update it,
do the WGLC as-is, or abandon it.

(Actually there are other options: in my case, the decision was to fold the
material into another WG draft. But the whole point is to avoid *accidental*
loss of the draft.)

   Brian


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From: Carsten Bormann 
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To: Russ Housley 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 2020-09-11, at 20:59, Russ Housley  wrote:
>=20
> I disagree.  If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there.

A little Saturday metacomment:

This is a nice example of =E2=80=9Cprocess confabulation=E2=80=9D, =
designing software for what SHOULD happen, not for what actually DOES =
(and NEEDS TO) happen.

Our discussion of Internet-Drafts is dominated by what I=E2=80=99ll call =
the =E2=80=9CExpiry Doctrine=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Internet-Drafts expire =
and then no longer exist.  Since this doctrine is obviously unworkable =
per se, we patch it up by providing a separate archive of expired =
drafts.

What actually happens is that URLs for Internet-Drafts are generated by =
various pieces of software (email, web pages) and propagate into other =
places.  At the time they are first generated, these Internet-Drafts are =
not expired yet.  The expiry doctrine makes us delete the data behind =
these URLs at expiry time, making the URLs we use for Internet-Drafts =
*unstable* URIs.

The archive can be addressed by *stable* URIs, but these are not the =
ones generated during the pre-expiry usage of Internet-Drafts.  Stable =
URIs need to be generated manually, which mostly does not happen at the =
time the URIs propagate into various places.

The tools server has been providing stable URIs throughout for =
Internet-Drafts (both for a single draft and for an entire series of =
revisions), which is probably a strong reason most people have been =
using tools server URIs (and still continue to do so) instead of the =
unstable =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D URIs to link to Internet-drafts.  =
Since the tools server has not been updated for the v3 world, there is =
now more incentive to use the =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D infrastructure, =
and the problems caused by the process confabulation surface once again.

The only true fix is to stop constraining ourselves by the expiry =
doctrine, and instead design the systems for what we are actually doing =
(and want to be doing!) with them.  Bridge pages like the ones I =
proposed are more patches and may restore some workability while =
continuing to pay lip service to the expiry doctrine and enduring the =
problems it creates.

How do we represent the (desirable) aspects of expiry without trying, =
unsuccessfully, to live the expiry doctrine?
By making expiry (and replacement) a dynamic *property* of a draft.  =
(Note that there is text in each draft that describes the current value =
of this property based on the current date =E2=80=94 this text is =
actually more likely untrue than true, and this has caused all kinds of =
problems with people taking the text at face value.  Instead it should =
point to a resource where the true current state can be ascertained.)

I cannot finish this note without noticing how all this is not in the =
domain of the RFC editor =E2=80=94 we have kept the domain of authoring =
and progressing documents out of this domain and are continuously =
baffled by the process discontinuities that the cliff between authoring =
and publishing creates.  We need to think about the entire process of =
RFC creation in a unified way to reduce the obstacles.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Sat Sep 12 09:57:28 2020
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From: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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One minor, but I think important, tweak to your commentary.

On 9/12/20 3:31 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-09-11, at 20:59, Russ Housley  wrote:
>> I disagree.  If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there.
> A little Saturday metacomment:
>
> This is a nice example of “process confabulation”, designing software for what SHOULD happen, not for what actually DOES (and NEEDS TO) happen.
>
> Our discussion of Internet-Drafts is dominated by what I’ll call the “Expiry Doctrine” — Internet-Drafts expire and then no longer exist.  Since this doctrine is obviously unworkable per se, we patch it up by providing a separate archive of expired drafts.
The archive is _all_ drafts, not just expired ones - the active ones are 
there too. It is the stable thing you are asking for already. The 
question I'm hearing is do we point more things at that by default.
>
> What actually happens is that URLs for Internet-Drafts are generated by various pieces of software (email, web pages) and propagate into other places.  At the time they are first generated, these Internet-Drafts are not expired yet.  The expiry doctrine makes us delete the data behind these URLs at expiry time, making the URLs we use for Internet-Drafts *unstable* URIs.
>
> The archive can be addressed by *stable* URIs, but these are not the ones generated during the pre-expiry usage of Internet-Drafts.  Stable URIs need to be generated manually, which mostly does not happen at the time the URIs propagate into various places.
>
> The tools server has been providing stable URIs throughout for Internet-Drafts (both for a single draft and for an entire series of revisions), which is probably a strong reason most people have been using tools server URIs (and still continue to do so) instead of the unstable “official” URIs to link to Internet-drafts.  Since the tools server has not been updated for the v3 world, there is now more incentive to use the “official” infrastructure, and the problems caused by the process confabulation surface once again.
>
> The only true fix is to stop constraining ourselves by the expiry doctrine, and instead design the systems for what we are actually doing (and want to be doing!) with them.  Bridge pages like the ones I proposed are more patches and may restore some workability while continuing to pay lip service to the expiry doctrine and enduring the problems it creates.
>
> How do we represent the (desirable) aspects of expiry without trying, unsuccessfully, to live the expiry doctrine?
> By making expiry (and replacement) a dynamic *property* of a draft.  (Note that there is text in each draft that describes the current value of this property based on the current date — this text is actually more likely untrue than true, and this has caused all kinds of problems with people taking the text at face value.  Instead it should point to a resource where the true current state can be ascertained.)
>
> I cannot finish this note without noticing how all this is not in the domain of the RFC editor — we have kept the domain of authoring and progressing documents out of this domain and are continuously baffled by the process discontinuities that the cliff between authoring and publishing creates.  We need to think about the entire process of RFC creation in a unified way to reduce the obstacles.
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>
> ___________________________________________________________
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>
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> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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To: Carsten Bormann , Russ Housley 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 12-Sep-20 20:31, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-09-11, at 20:59, Russ Housley  wrote:
>>
>> I disagree.  If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there.
>=20
> A little Saturday metacomment:
>=20
> This is a nice example of =E2=80=9Cprocess confabulation=E2=80=9D, desi=
gning software for what SHOULD happen, not for what actually DOES (and NE=
EDS TO) happen.

And what SHOULD happen is defined in RFC2026, our most basic process docu=
ment.
I don't think we can blame the official tools for following the official =
rules.
There are 14 RFCs that update RFC2026 already, so one more can't do much =
harm.

   Brian
>=20
> Our discussion of Internet-Drafts is dominated by what I=E2=80=99ll cal=
l the =E2=80=9CExpiry Doctrine=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Internet-Drafts expire =
and then no longer exist.  Since this doctrine is obviously unworkable pe=
r se, we patch it up by providing a separate archive of expired drafts.
>=20
> What actually happens is that URLs for Internet-Drafts are generated by=
 various pieces of software (email, web pages) and propagate into other p=
laces.  At the time they are first generated, these Internet-Drafts are n=
ot expired yet.  The expiry doctrine makes us delete the data behind thes=
e URLs at expiry time, making the URLs we use for Internet-Drafts *unstab=
le* URIs.
>=20
> The archive can be addressed by *stable* URIs, but these are not the on=
es generated during the pre-expiry usage of Internet-Drafts.  Stable URIs=
 need to be generated manually, which mostly does not happen at the time =
the URIs propagate into various places.
>=20
> The tools server has been providing stable URIs throughout for Internet=
-Drafts (both for a single draft and for an entire series of revisions), =
which is probably a strong reason most people have been using tools serve=
r URIs (and still continue to do so) instead of the unstable =E2=80=9Coff=
icial=E2=80=9D URIs to link to Internet-drafts.  Since the tools server h=
as not been updated for the v3 world, there is now more incentive to use =
the =E2=80=9Cofficial=E2=80=9D infrastructure, and the problems caused by=
 the process confabulation surface once again.
>=20
> The only true fix is to stop constraining ourselves by the expiry doctr=
ine, and instead design the systems for what we are actually doing (and w=
ant to be doing!) with them.  Bridge pages like the ones I proposed are m=
ore patches and may restore some workability while continuing to pay lip =
service to the expiry doctrine and enduring the problems it creates.
>=20
> How do we represent the (desirable) aspects of expiry without trying, u=
nsuccessfully, to live the expiry doctrine?
> By making expiry (and replacement) a dynamic *property* of a draft.  (N=
ote that there is text in each draft that describes the current value of =
this property based on the current date =E2=80=94 this text is actually m=
ore likely untrue than true, and this has caused all kinds of problems wi=
th people taking the text at face value.  Instead it should point to a re=
source where the true current state can be ascertained.)
>=20
> I cannot finish this note without noticing how all this is not in the d=
omain of the RFC editor =E2=80=94 we have kept the domain of authoring an=
d progressing documents out of this domain and are continuously baffled b=
y the process discontinuities that the cliff between authoring and publis=
hing creates.  We need to think about the entire process of RFC creation =
in a unified way to reduce the obstacles.
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20


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From: Carsten Bormann 
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To: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 2020-09-12, at 18:57, Robert Sparks  wrote:
>=20
> The archive is _all_ drafts, not just expired ones - the active ones =
are there too. It is the stable thing you are asking for already. The =
question I'm hearing is do we point more things at that by default.

Yes, I should have made this more clear.

Still, the archive does not tell me what the current status is =E2=80=94 =
it only has the (mostly wrong) expiry language in it.

(People do get upset quickly when the legacy tools scripts manage to =
miss a status update on a tools I-D, for good reasons.)

So, yes, I=E2=80=99ll continue to rsync over the archive, but I also =
would like to have a web page I can hand out links to that combines the =
archived I-D with information about whether it is current, has been =
updated, replaced, expired, published as an RFC, etc.  And I would like =
that web page to be the canonical home of an I-D.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Carsten Bormann , Russ Housley , Tools Team Discussion 
In-Reply-To: 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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Carsten Bormann  wrote:
    > A little Saturday metacomment:

Were you in the shower again today, to have such deep thoughts?

    > What actually happens is that URLs for Internet-Drafts are generated =
by
    > various pieces of software (email, web pages) and propagate into other
    > places.  At the time they are first generated, these Internet-Drafts
    > are not expired yet.  The expiry doctrine makes us delete the data
    > behind these URLs at expiry time, making the URLs we use for
    > Internet-Drafts *unstable* URIs.

    > The archive can be addressed by *stable* URIs, but these are not the
    > ones generated during the pre-expiry usage of Internet-Drafts.  Stable
    > URIs need to be generated manually, which mostly does not happen at t=
he
    > time the URIs propagate into various places.

+1

    > By making expiry (and replacement) a dynamic *property* of a draft.
    > (Note that there is text in each draft that describes the current val=
ue
    > of this property based on the current date =E2=80=94 this text is act=
ually more
    > likely untrue than true, and this has caused all kinds of problems wi=
th
    > people taking the text at face value.  Instead it should point to a
    > resource where the true current state can be ascertained.)

Since the draft knows when it expires, maybe it could mark itself.
As, I don't really want to put in JS into HTML generated WG drafts, I wonder
how to do this with CSS.
A simple way I can think of is to reference some CSS file that includes the
date of expiry.... [oh my I didn't know we import google hosted fonts]
And there is JS in there already. Oh. Unhappy face.
Do HTML generated RFCs have JS in them?

Anyway, I had mind something like:
   

which would go into every draft issues in September, and six months after 2=
020-09-30, would
make the draft have an expired mark on it.

    > I cannot finish this note without noticing how all this is not in the
    > domain of the RFC editor =E2=80=94 we have kept the domain of authori=
ng and
    > progressing documents out of this domain and are continuously baffled
    > by the process discontinuities that the cliff between authoring and
    > publishing creates.  We need to think about the entire process of RFC
    > creation in a unified way to reduce the obstacles.

Agreed.

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From nobody Sat Sep 12 17:37:11 2020
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From: Michael Richardson 
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cc: Carsten Bormann , Russ Housley , Tools Team Discussion 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
    >> On 2020-09-11, at 20:59, Russ Housley  wrote:
    >>>
    >>> I disagree.  If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there.
    >>
    >> A little Saturday metacomment:
    >>
    >> This is a nice example of =E2=80=9Cprocess confabulation=E2=80=9D, d=
esigning software for what SHOULD happen, not for what actually DOES (and N=
EEDS TO) happen.

    > And what SHOULD happen is defined in RFC2026, our most basic process =
document.
    > I don't think we can blame the official tools for following the offic=
ial rules.
    > There are 14 RFCs that update RFC2026 already, so one more can't do m=
uch harm.

I think we should really amend section 2.2.
We write:

   An Internet-Draft that is published as an RFC, or that has remained
   unchanged in the Internet-Drafts directory for more than six months
   without being recommended by the IESG for publication as an RFC, is
   simply removed from the Internet-Drafts directory.

I think that we should change "removed" to "expired"

1) We are forced to keep them for IPR reasons.
2) rfcdiff can't work if the old copy isn't somewhere.

Is www.ietf.org/id the actual "internet-drafts" directory?
I note that RFC2026 does not explicitely say "FTP" :-)

BTW: Was there a point where people anon-FTP'ed into ftp.ietf.org, and just
uploaded drafts on their own?  When I started in 1995, one would email them
to the secretariat-type entity, and wait a day or so.

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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From: Julian Reschke 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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Am 12.09.2020 um 18:57 schrieb Robert Sparks:
> One minor, but I think important, tweak to your commentary.
>
> On 9/12/20 3:31 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> On 2020-09-11, at 20:59, Russ Housley  wrote:
>>> I disagree.=C2=A0 If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there=
.
>> A little Saturday metacomment:
>>
>> This is a nice example of =E2=80=9Cprocess confabulation=E2=80=9D, desi=
gning software
>> for what SHOULD happen, not for what actually DOES (and NEEDS TO) happe=
n.
>>
>> Our discussion of Internet-Drafts is dominated by what I=E2=80=99ll cal=
l the
>> =E2=80=9CExpiry Doctrine=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 Internet-Drafts expire and =
then no longer exist.
>> Since this doctrine is obviously unworkable per se, we patch it up by
>> providing a separate archive of expired drafts.
> The archive is _all_ drafts, not just expired ones - the active ones are
> there too. It is the stable thing you are asking for already. The
> question I'm hearing is do we point more things at that by default.
> ...

Actually, the archive is all the draftf that have been submitted as v3
XML. So generic code can't decide what to link to without inspecting the
link target first.

Best regards, Julian


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From: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 9/13/20 5:24 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> Am 12.09.2020 um 18:57 schrieb Robert Sparks:
>> One minor, but I think important, tweak to your commentary.
>>
>> On 9/12/20 3:31 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>> On 2020-09-11, at 20:59, Russ Housley  wrote:
>>>> I disagree.  If the I-D has expired, it should not be shown there.
>>> A little Saturday metacomment:
>>>
>>> This is a nice example of “process confabulation”, designing software
>>> for what SHOULD happen, not for what actually DOES (and NEEDS TO) 
>>> happen.
>>>
>>> Our discussion of Internet-Drafts is dominated by what I’ll call the
>>> “Expiry Doctrine” — Internet-Drafts expire and then no longer exist.
>>> Since this doctrine is obviously unworkable per se, we patch it up by
>>> providing a separate archive of expired drafts.
>> The archive is _all_ drafts, not just expired ones - the active ones are
>> there too. It is the stable thing you are asking for already. The
>> question I'm hearing is do we point more things at that by default.
>> ...
>
> Actually, the archive is all the draftf that have been submitted as v3
> XML. So generic code can't decide what to link to without inspecting the
> link target first.
No - the archive is all drafts, but v3 html won't exist for drafts that 
weren't submitted as v3 xml. Is that what you meant?
>
> Best regards, Julian
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
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>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 2020-09-13, at 18:23, Robert Sparks  wrote:
>=20
> No - the archive is all drafts, but v3 html won't exist for drafts =
that weren't submitted as v3 xml. Is that what you meant?

It would be useful to be able for a tool to take a draft name (or an RFC =
number) and offline-generate a URI to a (what is likely to be an =
interstitial) page that explains the status and either points to or =
includes the HTML (v3-generated or, if that doesn=E2=80=99t exist, =
htmlized out of .txt).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 9/13/20 11:28 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-09-13, at 18:23, Robert Sparks  wrote:
>> No - the archive is all drafts, but v3 html won't exist for drafts that weren't submitted as v3 xml. Is that what you meant?
> It would be useful to be able for a tool to take a draft name (or an RFC number) and offline-generate a URI to a (what is likely to be an interstitial) page that explains the status and either points to or includes the HTML (v3-generated or, if that doesn’t exist, htmlized out of .txt).
For clarity - why isn't that the datatracker page for the draft?
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


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To: Robert Sparks 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 2020-09-13, at 18:33, Robert Sparks  wrote:
>=20
> For clarity - why isn't that the datatracker page for the draft?

Well, contrast

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis/

with

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis

The latter *is* the draft, with some status information (albeit somewhat =
cryptic for the uninitiated) prepended.
The datatracker page is a bit like a bugzilla page =E2=80=94 tons of =
information, tons of affordance alternatives, little guidance (and two =
pages of the draft at the end even if drafts no longer really are meant =
to have pages).

Nobody who is confronted for the first time with the bugzillaish =
datatracker page will know what to click.  This is not a useful page to =
have in the references section of a paper, or to reference from a blog =
article.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Robert Sparks 
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On 9/13/20 11:46 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-09-13, at 18:33, Robert Sparks  wrote:
>> For clarity - why isn't that the datatracker page for the draft?
> Well, contrast
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis/
>
> with
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis

How about https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis-14?

(Which is what Henrik was evolving from the tools htmlization, but the 
header information could also appear over a v3 rendering).

>
> The latter *is* the draft, with some status information (albeit somewhat cryptic for the uninitiated) prepended.
> The datatracker page is a bit like a bugzilla page — tons of information, tons of affordance alternatives, little guidance (and two pages of the draft at the end even if drafts no longer really are meant to have pages).
>
> Nobody who is confronted for the first time with the bugzillaish datatracker page will know what to click.  This is not a useful page to have in the references section of a paper, or to reference from a blog article.
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org
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On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 05:37:19PM -0400, Russ Housley wrote:
> > On Sep 10, 2020, at 4:09 PM, Michael Richardson  wrote:
> > Robert Sparks  wrote:
> >> Active IDs are added to the repository and the archive at the same time.
> > 
> >> When a draft is expired, revised, or replaced, it is removed from the
> >> repository of active IDs.
> > 
> > The surprise is perhaps that a non-expired, but replaced-draft is
> > removed.
> 
> Michael, this is not new.  It has worked this way as long as I have
> been involved with the IETF.

It used to be that way, then we stopped removing them, and now we're
doing it again?

Having older I-Ds available is very useful for archeological-like
research.  Just leave them be.

Nico
-- 


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On 2020-09-13, at 21:49, Nico Williams  wrote:
>=20
> It used to be that way, then we stopped removing them, and now we're
> doing it again?
>=20

More like:=20
> It used to be that way, then we stopped removing them, and now we=E2=80=99=
re
> designing our software as if we still were.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 10:13:08PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-09-13, at 21:49, Nico Williams  wrote:
> >=20
> > It used to be that way, then we stopped removing them, and now we're
> > doing it again?
> >=20
>=20
> More like:=20
> > It used to be that way, then we stopped removing them, and now we=E2=80=
=99re
> > designing our software as if we still were.

I don't understand just what you mean here.


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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Robert Sparks , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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Robert Sparks  wrote:
    > On 9/13/20 11:46 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
    >> On 2020-09-13, at 18:33, Robert Sparks  wrote:
    >>> For clarity - why isn't that the datatracker page for the draft?
    >> Well, contrast
    >>
    >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis/
    >>
    >> with
    >>
    >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049bis

    > How about https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-cbor-7049b=
is-14?

    > (Which is what Henrik was evolving from the tools htmlization, but th=
e header
    > information could also appear over a v3 rendering).

Yes, so this is the html-itization via DT.
vs HTML rendering of the ID.
I like that it has all the status info, but I find it much less readable th=
an
other formats, because it has such wide horizontal empty gutters.

It has some header across the top, but if you try to use them you wind up
elsewhere, and then you can't via the headers, get back.

    >> Nobody who is confronted for the first time with the bugzillaish
    >> datatracker page will know what to click.  This is not a useful page=
 to
    >> have in the references section of a paper, or to reference from a bl=
og
    >> article.

While I understand Carsten's bugzilla reference, many others might not.

Robert, I think that what we are saying is that the DT document page has
reached a point where it has been too sophisticated for newcomers, and
non-IETFers.   We, IETFers, would like to point people to the new beautiful=
ly
rendered HTML copies, but we need:
  1) stable URL, despite revision of documents, or:
  2) unstable URL, with status and forward pointers

In both cases, we need a pointer to the DT page.

{While HTML4 FRAMEs are never a good answer, this sure feels like it might =
be
a reasonable question}

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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Am 13.09.2020 um 18:23 schrieb Robert Sparks:
> ...
>> Actually, the archive is all the draftf that have been submitted as v3
>> XML. So generic code can't decide what to link to without inspecting th=
e
>> link target first.
> No - the archive is all drafts, but v3 html won't exist for drafts that
> weren't submitted as v3 xml. Is that what you meant?
> ...

Yes. There should be HTML for all drafts, no matter how they were submitte=
d.

(FWIW: this is true for the equivalent RFC Editor page, which has V3
HTML if available, otherwise HTMLized text)

Best regards, Julian


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From: Michael Richardson 
To: Nico Williams 
cc: Carsten Bormann , Tools Team Discussion 
In-Reply-To: <20200913204107.GY3100@localhost>
References: <8657.1599751932@localhost> <84c8d593-c7b6-4327-338f-9b2b0e7a36e0@levkowetz.com> <0C6D4DE2-F9F3-4C7C-8427-264F34C8C2B7@tzi.org> <26d795d2-3761-2950-4346-62f849d86eed@nostrum.com> <7792.1599768579@localhost>  <20200913194859.GX3100@localhost> <6B3F25CF-F1BF-4332-89DC-151D31227626@tzi.org> <20200913204107.GY3100@localhost>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org
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Nico Williams  wrote:
    >> On 2020-09-13, at 21:49, Nico Williams  wrote:
    >> >
    >> > It used to be that way, then we stopped removing them, and now we'=
re
    >> > doing it again?
    >> >
    >>
    >> More like:
    >> > It used to be that way, then we stopped removing them, and now we=
=E2=80=99re
    >> > designing our software as if we still were.

    > I don't understand just what you mean here.

The IDs have always, and will continue to disappear from the
"internet-drafts" directory.
By this, I mean the FTP site at %ftp ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
the rsync site at rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts
and now, the HTML rendered ones at https://www.ietf.org/id/

We have had, for more than a decade, other archives of expired drafts.
Robert points out that they are https://www.ietf.org/id/archive/

The discussion is that we need a stable URL that points to the latest versi=
on
and/or redirects and/or provides a status tombstone with links.
Because the DT page is just too much for non-IETFers.

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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From nobody Mon Sep 14 02:42:58 2020
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To: Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss@ietf.org
From: S Moonesamy 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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Hi Carsten,
At 01:31 AM 12-09-2020, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>How do we represent the (desirable) aspects of=20
>expiry without trying, unsuccessfully, to live the expiry doctrine?
>By making expiry (and replacement) a dynamic=20
>*property* of a draft.  (Note that there is text=20
>in each draft that describes the current value=20
>of this property based on the current date =97=20
>this text is actually more likely untrue than=20
>true, and this has caused all kinds of problems=20
>with people taking the text at face=20
>value.  Instead it should point to a resource=20
>where the true current state can be ascertained.)

There was an IETF discussion about the expiration=20
of I-Ds.  That led to a change where expired I-Ds=20
were replaced with a "tombstone" file unless=20
there is a newer version of the I-D.

>I cannot finish this note without noticing how=20
>all this is not in the domain of the RFC editor=20
>=97 we have kept the domain of authoring and progressing documents out of=
 this

Yes.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy


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From: Dhruv Dhody 
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 18:40:58 +0530
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To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] WG Wiki is down
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Hi,

WG Wiki seems to be down.

https://trac.ietf.org/trac/pce
> Trac Error
> TracError: The Trac Environment needs to be upgraded.
> Run "trac-admin /a/www/www6s/trac/pce upgrade"


I get the same error for all WGs.

Thanks!
Dhruv

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=
Hi,

WG Wiki seems to be down.

https:=
//trac.ietf.org/trac/pce
Trac Error
TracError: The Trac Environme=
nt needs to be upgraded.
Run "trac-admin /a/www/www6s/trac/pce upgr=
ade"

I ge=
t the same error for all WGs.=C2=A0

Thanks!=C2=A0
<=
div>Dhruv<=
/div>


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WG Wiki is down
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From: Henrik Levkowetz 
To: Dhruv Dhody , tools-discuss@ietf.org
Cc: pce-chairs 
Message-ID: 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WG Wiki is down
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Hi Dhruv,

Yes, a ticket has been registered with the secretariat.

	Henrik

On 2020-09-14 15:10, Dhruv Dhody wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> WG Wiki seems to be down.
>=20
> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/pce
>> Trac Error
>> TracError: The Trac Environment needs to be upgraded.
>> Run "trac-admin /a/www/www6s/trac/pce upgrade"
>=20
>=20
> I get the same error for all WGs.
>=20
> Thanks!
> Dhruv
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20


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From: Robert Sparks 
To: codesprints@ietf.org, "tools-discuss@ietf.org" 
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 09:36:41 -0500
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Action needed (Re: Codesprint 108.1)
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If you haven't added yourself to the doodle below, please do so today. 
Note that this is not the original doodle.

I've deleted the original - its state is captured in the attached PDF.

RjS

On 9/10/20 12:21 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
> Given the feedback so far, I'd like to run another quick doodle to 
> make sure we're chosen the best time. The granularity of the original 
> doodle wasn't as fine as it needed to be.
>
> Please add yourself to this doodle asap: 
> https://doodle.com/poll/2si7m8gazan4h2ku
>
> RjS
>
> On 9/9/20 2:52 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
>> We will hold a virtual codesprint Friday 25 Sep 2020 at 2000 UTC.
>>
>> Information, including webex coordinates, is available at
>>
>> 
>>
>> If you participated in the recent doodle, you've already been added 
>> to the Signup page at
>>
>> 
>>
>> Please feel free to remove yourself if that time became unavailable 
>> for you already.
>>
>> If you can participate and are not yet signed up, please add yourself 
>> to that list.
>>
>> Thank you for the time you put in on making things better for the 
>> IETF community!
>>
>> RjS
>>
>>

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--------------F662113373E3AB48F2E7A8AC--


From nobody Mon Sep 14 08:24:48 2020
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From: Glen 
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Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 08:24:42 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] WG Wiki is down
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The secretariat is here and looking in to this now.

Glen


On 9/14/2020 06:13, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> Hi Dhruv,
> 
> Yes, a ticket has been registered with the secretariat.
> 
> 	Henrik
> 
> On 2020-09-14 15:10, Dhruv Dhody wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> WG Wiki seems to be down.
>>
>> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/pce
>>> Trac Error
>>> TracError: The Trac Environment needs to be upgraded.
>>> Run "trac-admin /a/www/www6s/trac/pce upgrade"
>>
>>
>> I get the same error for all WGs.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> Dhruv
>>
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>>
> 
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> 
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> 


From nobody Mon Sep 14 08:55:24 2020
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From: Glen 
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All -

I've run the obvious command against all the wiki directories, and spot 
checks indicate that they seem to be working now.

There is still at least one visible issue (namely that the logo isn't 
showing up, triggering the alt="(please configure the [header_logo] 
section in trac.ini)" text), but the wikis themselves appear to be fine.

I'll be investigating the cause of this issue in an effort to prevent it 
from happening again.

I apologize for the inconvenience.

Glen

On 9/14/2020 08:24, Glen wrote:
> The secretariat is here and looking in to this now.
> 
> Glen
> 
> 
> On 9/14/2020 06:13, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
>> Hi Dhruv,
>>
>> Yes, a ticket has been registered with the secretariat.
>>
>>     Henrik
>>
>> On 2020-09-14 15:10, Dhruv Dhody wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> WG Wiki seems to be down.
>>>
>>> https://trac.ietf.org/trac/pce
>>>> Trac Error
>>>> TracError: The Trac Environment needs to be upgraded.
>>>> Run "trac-admin /a/www/www6s/trac/pce upgrade"
>>>
>>>
>>> I get the same error for all WGs.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>> Dhruv
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___________________________________________________________
>>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>>
>>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>>
>>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________________________________
>> Tools-discuss mailing list
>> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>>
>> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
>> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
>> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>>
>> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
>> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
>> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>>
> 
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
> 
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
> 
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
> 


From nobody Tue Sep 15 02:44:50 2020
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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Am 13.09.2020 um 02:28 schrieb Michael Richardson:
> ...
> Since the draft knows when it expires, maybe it could mark itself.
> As, I don't really want to put in JS into HTML generated WG drafts, I wo=
nder
> how to do this with CSS.
 > ...

There's JS in the V3 HTML of RFCs, so why not in Internet Drafts?

(As an exercise I just added that in rfc2629.xslt; example output:
).

> A simple way I can think of is to reference some CSS file that includes =
the
> date of expiry.... [oh my I didn't know we import google hosted fonts]
> And there is JS in there already. Oh. Unhappy face.
> Do HTML generated RFCs have JS in them?

Yes.

> Anyway, I had mind something like:
>     
>
> which would go into every draft issues in September, and six months afte=
r 2020-09-30, would
> make the draft have an expired mark on it.

a) That would treat all drafts from one month the same way, and

b) It would not address the case where the draft actually has been
replaced by a newer version.

Best regards, Julian


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Hi,

the ADD meeting today doesn't seem to have a timezone in =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/upcoming.ics? Or at least it is at =
13:00 and doesn't move around as I change calendar timezones...

Lars

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From: "Deen, Glenn" 
To: Lars Eggert , Tools Team Discussion 
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Thread-Topic: ADD interim w/o timezone?
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] ADD interim w/o timezone?
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Odd,  it=92s supposed to be 13:00 GMT


________________________________
From: Lars Eggert 
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 3:13 AM
To: Tools Team Discussion
Cc: add-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: ADD interim w/o timezone?

Hi,

the ADD meeting today doesn't seem to have a timezone in https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/meeting/upcoming.ics? Or at least it is at 13:00 and doesn't mov=
e around as I change calendar timezones...

Lars

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Odd,  it=92s supposed to be 13:00 GMT











 




From: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>

Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 3:13 AM

To: Tools Team Discussion

Cc: add-chairs@ietf.org

Subject: ADD interim w/o timezone?

 






Hi,



the ADD meeting today doesn't seem to have a timezone in 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/upcoming.ics? Or at least it is at=
 13:00 and doesn't move around as I change calendar timezones...



Lars










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This was an issue with a missing timezone definition file.  I've put one
in place now, so the issue should not repeat.

	Henrik

On 2020-09-15 12:37, Deen, Glenn wrote:
> Odd,  it=E2=80=99s supposed to be 13:00 GMT
>=20
>=20
> ________________________________
> From: Lars Eggert 
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2020 3:13 AM
> To: Tools Team Discussion
> Cc: add-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: ADD interim w/o timezone?
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> the ADD meeting today doesn't seem to have a timezone in https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/meeting/upcoming.ics? Or at least it is at 13:00 and doesn=
't move around as I change calendar timezones...
>=20
> Lars
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org
>=20


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From: Robert Sparks 
To: codesprints@ietf.org, "tools-discuss@ietf.org" 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Codesprint 108.1 rescheduled to 9 Oct.
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Based on the below doodle, we're moving the virtual codesprint to Friday 
9 Oct 2020 at 2000 UTC.

On 9/14/20 9:36 AM, Robert Sparks wrote:
> If you haven't added yourself to the doodle below, please do so today. 
> Note that this is not the original doodle.
>
> I've deleted the original - its state is captured in the attached PDF.
>
> RjS
>
> On 9/10/20 12:21 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
>> Given the feedback so far, I'd like to run another quick doodle to 
>> make sure we're chosen the best time. The granularity of the original 
>> doodle wasn't as fine as it needed to be.
>>
>> Please add yourself to this doodle asap: 
>> https://doodle.com/poll/2si7m8gazan4h2ku
>>
>> RjS
>>
>> On 9/9/20 2:52 PM, Robert Sparks wrote:
>>> We will hold a virtual codesprint Friday 25 Sep 2020 at 2000 UTC.
>>>
>>> Information, including webex coordinates, is available at
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> If you participated in the recent doodle, you've already been added 
>>> to the Signup page at
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Please feel free to remove yourself if that time became unavailable 
>>> for you already.
>>>
>>> If you can participate and are not yet signed up, please add 
>>> yourself to that list.
>>>
>>> Thank you for the time you put in on making things better for the 
>>> IETF community!
>>>
>>> RjS
>>>
>>>


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In writing my IETF108 report, I went back to the agenda for IETF108 for a
particulary WG. (Gendispatch in the case), and I wanted to remember who
the exact authors of the draft involved were.  I clicked on the link in the
agenda.

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/108/agenda/agenda-108-gendispatch-03.html

Oops.  The draft has been replaced.  404 on https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-c=
arpenter-eligibility-expand-03.html
I at least, know what to do.  Some external person, who wants to know what
the IETF has been doing... well, this will really really look unprofessiona=
l.

We really really do need the ability to see the version of that document th=
at was discussed
at that session.  So, we need to use the archive link everywhere.
I note that for the first draft, the WG chairs used the tools link for
whatever reason.

**I can't think of a use case where the expiring URL version would ever be =
useful**

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From nobody Fri Sep 18 18:40:12 2020
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I tweaked my .travis.yml to run again for a repo which used to work.
I am not using the MT makefile, but my own.
I am now doing xml2rfc --v2v3, and this requires python3, so I told travis =
to
use that.

I am now getting "sre_constants.error: bad character range =E2=80=9A-=E2=80=
=90 at position 8"

I tried python 3.5, then tried python 3.7 as well... nope.
Something about virtualenv not really working right, but impossible to debu=
g.

I then switch to "dist: bionic", and then everything worked using virtualenv
to install the xml2rfc.

=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [=20
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [=20
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
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From nobody Tue Sep 22 01:04:34 2020
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Strange IDnits behavior (or is it something else?)
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Hi,
On 2020-7-30, at 6:37, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
> On 2020-07-30, at 04:44, Spencer Dawkins at IETF =
 wrote:
>> In IDnits, I'm getting
>>=20
>>  -- The document date (January 2021) is 170 days in the future.  Is =
this
>>     intentional?
>>=20
>> and that seems to be the Expiration date in the draft (so, I'm =
confused).
>=20
> Yes, I am seeing this behavior for my v3 drafts.

same here.

>> I'm also getting
>>=20
>>  -- Unexpected draft version: The latest known version of
>>     draft-irtf-panrg-questions is -04, but you're referring to -05.
>>=20
>> but the datatracker DOES have =
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-irtf-panrg-questions-05.txt

Same here.

And when running it locally, it fails to download most of the status =
files it needs, which causes other errors.

> It seems the idnits downloading and caching approach is somewhat =
brittle=E2=80=A6
> Idnits is an amazing script held together by spit and scotch tape.
> I think it is waiting for a full rewrite=E2=80=A6
> Until then, it will stay a little quirky.

Given how central idnits is to the review process, I'm not sure living =
with the quirks is the right approach here.

Lars


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To: tools-discuss@ietf.org
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From: Julian Reschke 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Strange IDnits behavior (or is it something else?)
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Am 30.07.2020 um 04:44 schrieb Spencer Dawkins at IETF:
> I'm working on a draft and getting some weird behavior when running
> IDnits and trying to submit the draft.
>
> In IDnits, I'm getting
>
>  =C2=A0 -- The document date (January 2021) is 170 days in the future.=
=C2=A0 Is this
>  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0intentional?

...maybe caused by xml2rfc v3's change in date format in the boilerplate?

Best regards, Julian


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To: Julian Reschke 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Strange IDnits behavior (or is it something else?)
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Most likely; it seems to think the expiry date is the document date.=20

Sent from mobile, sorry for terse

> On 22. Sep 2020, at 10:29, Julian Reschke  wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFAm 30.07.2020 um 04:44 schrieb Spencer Dawkins at IETF:
>> I'm working on a draft and getting some weird behavior when running
>> IDnits and trying to submit the draft.
>>=20
>> In IDnits, I'm getting
>>=20
>>   -- The document date (January 2021) is 170 days in the future.  Is this=

>>      intentional?
>=20
> ...maybe caused by xml2rfc v3's change in date format in the boilerplate?
>=20
> Best regards, Julian
>=20
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>=20
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>=20
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

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Most likely; it seems to think the expiry d=
ate is the document date. 

Sent from mobile, sorry for terse

On 22. Sep 2020, at 10:29, Julian Reschke=
 <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

=EF=BB=BFAm 30.07.2020 um 04:44 schrieb S=
pencer Dawkins at IETF:
I'm workin=
g on a draft and getting some weird behavior when running
IDnits and trying to submit the draft.<=
/span>

In IDnits, I'm getting

   -- The document date (January 2021) is 170 days in t=
he future.  Is this
      intentional?
...maybe caused by xml2rfc v3's change in date format in the boilerp=
late?

Best regards, Julian
=

___________________________________________________________=

Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ie=
tf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and maila=
rchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http:=
//tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@too=
ls.ietf.org
=

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To: Julian Reschke 
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On 2020-9-22, at 11:29, Julian Reschke  wrote:
> ...maybe caused by xml2rfc v3's change in date format in the =
boilerplate?

Yep. I have a fix in https://github.com/larseggert/idnits/pull/1/files, =
but since I have no idea what the sources for the actual repo are, I =
don't know what to do with that patch...

Lars

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From: Henrik Levkowetz 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Strange IDnits behavior (or is it something
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Hi Lars,

On 2020-09-22 12:32, Lars Eggert wrote:
> On 2020-9-22, at 11:29, Julian Reschke  wrote:
>> ...maybe caused by xml2rfc v3's change in date format in the boilerpla=
te?
>=20
> Yep. I have a fix in https://github.com/larseggert/idnits/pull/1/files,=
 but since I have no idea what the sources for the actual repo are, I don=
't know what to do with that patch...

The old idnits doesn't have a repository.  I'll grab your patch from the
link.


Best regards,

	Henrik


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To: Henrik Levkowetz 
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On 2020-9-22, at 18:45, Henrik Levkowetz  wrote:
> The old idnits doesn't have a repository.  I'll grab your patch from the
> link.

ACK.

(Is there a new idnits?!)

Lars

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To: Lars Eggert 
References:  <3f032b28-3159-355e-db2c-8be749fad47e@gmx.de> <0B6004B7-8BBD-4A22-A155-7E8D47F6727D@eggert.org> <6742c6a8-5402-f62d-67ee-fed8b2f81619@levkowetz.com> <2DC190C0-F601-4CC0-99F1-644A4765B061@eggert.org>
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From: Henrik Levkowetz 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Strange IDnits behavior (or is it something else?)
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Strange IDnits behavior (or is it something
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On 2020-09-22 18:01, Lars Eggert wrote:
> On 2020-9-22, at 18:45, Henrik Levkowetz  wrote:
>> The old idnits doesn't have a repository.  I'll grab your patch from t=
he
>> link.
>=20
> ACK.
>=20
> (Is there a new idnits?!)

Being worked at; complete rewrite.  Not ready for primetime; will be with=
in
months.

	Henrik


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From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley)
To: Carsten Bormann 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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Carsten Bormann  writes:
> This is a nice example of "process confabulation", designing software
> for what SHOULD happen, not for what actually DOES (and NEEDS TO)
> happen.

It also comes from confusing the position and role of a draft within the
IETF standards process with the position and role of a version of a
draft within the entire sphere of IETF-related technical activies.
Within the standards process, a draft that hasn't been updated within
six months may as well not exist, to do anything with it a new version
must be submitted; within what I might call "reality", every version of
every draft has value forever.

Dale


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To: "Dale R. Worley" , Carsten Bormann 
Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org
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From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 23-Sep-20 14:36, Dale R. Worley wrote:
> Carsten Bormann  writes:
>> This is a nice example of "process confabulation", designing software
>> for what SHOULD happen, not for what actually DOES (and NEEDS TO)
>> happen.
> 
> It also comes from confusing the position and role of a draft within the
> IETF standards process with the position and role of a version of a
> draft within the entire sphere of IETF-related technical activies.
> Within the standards process, a draft that hasn't been updated within
> six months may as well not exist, to do anything with it a new version
> must be submitted; within what I might call "reality", every version of
> every draft has value forever.

Why not write a short BCP to update RFC2026 to reflect that reality?
Then there might be a chance of the tools catching up.

What we have learned over a number of years is that drafts have archival
value and may be of interest years after they were written; and this can
apply to all versions, not just the most recent version. That's
inconsistent with the rules, so we should change the rules.

    Brian


From nobody Tue Sep 22 20:05:51 2020
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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> On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:00 PM, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>=20
> What we have learned over a number of years is that drafts have archival
> value and may be of interest years after they were written; and this can
> apply to all versions, not just the most recent version. That's
> inconsistent with the rules, so we should change the rules.

Or correct your misconception.=20

Value to the community includes their expiry. If they persist, we can all st=
op wasting time and publish to arXiv instead.=20

Joe=


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To: Joe Touch 
Cc: "Dale R. Worley" , Carsten Bormann , tools-discuss@ietf.org
References: <09b3413a-a91d-d1d9-5486-598a317000c2@gmail.com> <46DA8D26-3C10-4A89-84A8-3B412B745313@strayalpha.com>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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On 23-Sep-20 15:05, Joe Touch wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:00 PM, Brian E Carpenter  wrote:
>>
>> What we have learned over a number of years is that drafts have archival
>> value and may be of interest years after they were written; and this can
>> apply to all versions, not just the most recent version. That's
>> inconsistent with the rules, so we should change the rules.
> 
> Or correct your misconception. 
> 
> Value to the community includes their expiry. 

Yes. That's a label, and I wouldn't suggest to change that label.

   Brian

> If they persist, we can all stop wasting time and publish to arXiv instead. 
> 
> Joe
> 


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Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2020 08:18:19 -0700
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> On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
>=20
> On 23-Sep-20 15:05, Joe Touch wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:00 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> What we have learned over a number of years is that drafts have =
archival
>>> value and may be of interest years after they were written; and this =
can
>>> apply to all versions, not just the most recent version. That's
>>> inconsistent with the rules, so we should change the rules.
>>=20
>> Or correct your misconception.=20
>>=20
>> Value to the community includes their expiry.=20
>=20
> Yes. That's a label, and I wouldn't suggest to change that label.

So what exactly are you suggesting to change?

If expiration is treated as =E2=80=9Cjust a label", then it has no =
meaning.

Joe




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On Sep 22, 2020, at 8:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On 23-Sep-20 15:05, Joe Touch =
wrote:


On Sep =
22, 2020, at 8:00 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

What we have learned over a number of years is that drafts =
have archival
value and may be of interest years after =
they were written; and this can
apply to all versions, not =
just the most recent version. That's
inconsistent with the =
rules, so we should change the rules.

Or correct your misconception. 

Value to the community includes their expiry. 

Yes. That's a label, and I wouldn't suggest to change that =
label.

So what =
exactly are you suggesting to change?

If expiration is treated as =E2=80=9Cjust a =
label", then it has no meaning.

Joe



=

--Apple-Mail=_B0EFC9C9-1884-4075-8EBF-DA897DBD5D96--


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To: Joseph Touch 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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> So what exactly are you suggesting to change?

The way we refer to our artifacts.

We need a stable reference to a specific revision of some document =
(independent of what future states it might have in our status FSM).

We need a stable reference to a sequence of revisions (including =
potentially future ones including derivations) of some document.

The former *SHOULD* include a reference to the latter.

(We also need to keep the documents themselves somewhere, which is what =
the archive does for us.)

> If expiration is treated as =E2=80=9Cjust a label", then it has no =
meaning.

*All* the meaning is in labels, so I don=E2=80=99t understand that =
statement.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Joe Touch 
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> On Sep 23, 2020, at 8:22 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
>=20
>> So what exactly are you suggesting to change?
>=20
> The way we refer to our artifacts.
>=20
> We need a stable reference...

Drafts are drafts unless they=E2=80=99re not.=20

Drafts expire unless they don=E2=80=99t.=20

Treating them as artifacts in need of a stable reference means they=E2=80=99=
re not drafts anymore. They=E2=80=99re just versions.=20

So assign RFC numbers when they=E2=80=99re initially submitted and allow rev=
 numbers or don=E2=80=99t.=20

But if they=E2=80=99re not drafts, again we should just publish them to arXi=
v and skip all the irrelevant IETF mechanism.=20

Joe=


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> Drafts are drafts unless they=E2=80=99re not.=20

We have learned for a few decades that there are multiple perspectives =
on that, none of which can be ignored.  A patent lawyer has a different =
perspective than a software archeologist (a.k.a. implementer) than a =
standards developer.

> Drafts expire unless they don=E2=80=99t.=20

Again, there are different perspectives.
Saying your=E2=80=99s is the only one we should care about because that =
is how we SHOULD work, while we DO work differently, is the classic case =
of process confabulation.

Having labels=20

> Treating them as artifacts in need of a stable reference means =
they=E2=80=99re not drafts anymore. They=E2=80=99re just versions.=20

They are versions of drafts!

> So assign RFC numbers when they=E2=80=99re initially submitted and =
allow rev numbers or don=E2=80=99t.=20

Nonsense.  The label =E2=80=9CRFC=E2=80=9D is meaningful and should only =
be used for documents that are no longer =E2=80=9Cdrafts=E2=80=9D.

> But if they=E2=80=99re not drafts, again we should just publish them =
to arXiv and skip all the irrelevant IETF mechanism.=20

Nonsense.  The IETF process is useful in producing labels such as =
=E2=80=9CRFC=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CStandards Track=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cobsoletes=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CUpdates=E2=80=9D, etc.

What=E2=80=99s the point of drawing these strawmen?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Expiry Doctrine (Re: Expired draft on the w.g. status pages [was Re: disappearing IDs on www.ietf.org])
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> On Sep 23, 2020, at 9:52 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
>=20
>> Drafts are drafts unless they=E2=80=99re not.=20
>=20
> We have learned for a few decades that there are multiple perspectives =
on that, none of which can be ignored.  A patent lawyer has a different =
perspective than a software archeologist (a.k.a. implementer) than a =
standards developer.

Yes, but patent lawyers don=E2=80=99t necessarily need stable links; =
they need access to an archive, which they already have.

>> Drafts expire unless they don=E2=80=99t.=20
>=20
> Again, there are different perspectives.
> Saying your=E2=80=99s is the only one we should care about because =
that is how we SHOULD work, while we DO work differently, is the classic =
case of process confabulation.
>=20
> Having labels=20
>=20
>> Treating them as artifacts in need of a stable reference means =
they=E2=80=99re not drafts anymore. They=E2=80=99re just versions.=20
>=20
> They are versions of drafts!
>=20
>> So assign RFC numbers when they=E2=80=99re initially submitted and =
allow rev numbers or don=E2=80=99t.=20
>=20
> Nonsense.  The label =E2=80=9CRFC=E2=80=9D is meaningful and should =
only be used for documents that are no longer =E2=80=9Cdrafts=E2=80=9D.

By making links to drafts stable, the label RFC becomes less meaningful =
as a distinction. As you and Brian claim, then becomes =E2=80=9Cjust a =
label=E2=80=9D.

>=20
>> But if they=E2=80=99re not drafts, again we should just publish them =
to arXiv and skip all the irrelevant IETF mechanism.=20
>=20
> Nonsense.  The IETF process is useful in producing labels such as =
=E2=80=9CRFC=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CStandards Track=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cobsoletes=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CUpdates=E2=80=9D, etc.
>=20
> What=E2=80=99s the point of drawing these strawmen?

I am actually trying to figure out whether to post updates to pending =
drafts via a process that is increasingly diverging into its own, =
idiosyncratic full publication process or stop wasting my time and just =
go straight to arXiv.

You and Brian make a very strong case for the latter.

Joe


From nobody Wed Sep 23 10:21:59 2020
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Why on earth are you having this debate on, of all places, the Tools 
Team list? This is wide acknowledgement that different people strongly 
disagree on the topic. If you want something to actually change, take it 
(again...) to the IAB or IESG.

--Paul Hoffman


From nobody Mon Sep 28 05:33:44 2020
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I=E2=80=99m getting random failures from I-D-template CI like

*** 404 NOT FOUND while fetching =
https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml8/reference.IANA.media-typ=
e-structured-suffix.xml?anchor=3DIANA.media-type-structured-suffix

Checking the returned page from a manual fetch, it sometimes says:

invalid IANA name or type

Fetching the same resource again then gives me the right result.

Very weird.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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I'm looking on the IMAP for a last-call thread.
The subject mostly say:

  [last-call] FOODIR last call review of draft-ietf-xxx

I wonder if they could be changed to say:

  [last-call] draft-ietf-xxx: FOODIR last call review

(I understand "last call" is repeated, as the email gets cross-posted to
other lists)

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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From nobody Mon Sep 28 12:30:46 2020
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Can you say more about why that change would help?

RjS

On 9/28/20 2:05 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
> I'm looking on the IMAP for a last-call thread.
> The subject mostly say:
>
>    [last-call] FOODIR last call review of draft-ietf-xxx
>
> I wonder if they could be changed to say:
>
>    [last-call] draft-ietf-xxx: FOODIR last call review
>
> (I understand "last call" is repeated, as the email gets cross-posted to
> other lists)
>
> --
> Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
>             Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Tools-discuss mailing list
> Tools-discuss@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
>
> Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
> bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
> or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org
>
> Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
> http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
> or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org

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Can you say more about why that change would help?

    
RjS

    

    
On 9/28/20 2:05 PM, Michael Richardson
      wrote:

    

    

      
I'm looking on the IMAP for a last-call thread.
The subject mostly say:

  [last-call] FOODIR last call review of draft-ietf-xxx

I wonder if they could be changed to say:

  [last-call] draft-ietf-xxx: FOODIR last call review

(I understand "last call" is repeated, as the email gets cross-posted to
other lists)

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide


      

      

      
___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list
Tools-discuss@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org
bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb
or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org

Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at
http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues
or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org


    

  


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Robert Sparks  wrote:
    > Can you say more about why that change would help?

Sorting by subject would be more useful.

Scanning by eye is easier, particularly since the right-hand
side often gets truncated.

Yes, I can use search in the end, which is what I did.

=2D-
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ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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On 9/28/20 3:33 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
> Robert Sparks  wrote:
>      > Can you say more about why that change would help?
>
> Sorting by subject would be more useful.
>
> Scanning by eye is easier, particularly since the right-hand
> side often gets truncated.
>
> Yes, I can use search in the end, which is what I did.

Right.

Searching would be made a little more difficult were we to change things 
as you suggested (at least with simple string searches).

Right now, you can search for all the reviews on a doc using "review of 
draft-" or "telechat review of draft-".

Splitting it as you propose would require two passes (or something that 
does more than simple string matching) to get the second thing.

I see the potential benefit in subject sorting.

I'm not sure its a big enough win to drive a change though - if we were 
to change, future searchers (looking across the period of change) would 
have to search for both things.

Also, for sorting there's the tradeoff against someone that wants to 
sort by type of review or team.

Scanning by eye suffers some of the same tradeoffs. Since group acronyms 
tend to be short, as are the types of review, the form of the line is 
currently mostly static as you scan down - the column breaks move a 
little with a very rough right edge. Moving the draft name to the front 
will make all the column boundaries very rough.

>
> --
> Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
>             Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide
>
>
>
>


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Robert Sparks  wrote:
    > On 9/28/20 3:33 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:
    >> Robert Sparks  wrote: > Can you say more about
    >> why that change would help?
    >>
    >> Sorting by subject would be more useful.
    >>
    >> Scanning by eye is easier, particularly since the right-hand side
    >> often gets truncated.
    >>
    >> Yes, I can use search in the end, which is what I did.

    > Right.

    > Searching would be made a little more difficult were we to change
    > things as you suggested (at least with simple string searches).

    > Right now, you can search for all the reviews on a doc using "review =
of
    > draft-" or "telechat review of draft-".

And I can see how this was a win when ietf@ and last-call@  were combined.
If you look at last-call, "review of" is redundant.  Almost every message
subject contains that string :-)

    > I'm not sure its a big enough win to drive a change though - if we we=
re
    > to change, future searchers (looking across the period of change) wou=
ld
    > have to search for both things.

Yes, that's a concern.

    > Scanning by eye suffers some of the same tradeoffs. Since group
    > acronyms tend to be short, as are the types of review, the form of the
    > line is currently mostly static as you scan down - the column breaks
    > move a little with a very rough right edge. Moving the draft name to
    > the front will make all the column boundaries very rough.

sure.  I get it in my inbox as well as I look back in the archives with IMA=
P.
I feel there is a benefit for my inbox too, as I am more likely to notice
things.  I even thought to suggest removing  "draft-", but I didn't.

=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide

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Subject: [Tools-discuss] getting the Acknowledgement section in the right place
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I noticed while reading the diff for an AUTH48 that the RFC editor had moved
the Acknowledgement section after the references.

I guess we can make that happen by putting that section after the ---back
in kramdown, and move it manually in xml.

It wasn't something I'd noticed before.

=2D-
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect =
  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [




=2D-
Michael Richardson    . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti=
ng )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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From nobody Mon Sep 28 23:16:47 2020
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On 2020-09-29, at 04:06, Michael Richardson  =
wrote:
>=20
> I noticed while reading the diff for an AUTH48 that the RFC editor had =
moved
> the Acknowledgement section after the references.

Yes, that=E2=80=99s what RFC 7322 says:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7322#section-4.10

(It may be followed by a contributors section, and then is followed by =
the authors=E2=80=99 addresses.)

> I guess we can make that happen by putting that section after the =
---back
> in kramdown, and move it manually in xml.

Putting the section last (or before a contributors section, which may be =
automatically inserted by kramdown-rfc) in the back matter is right.
No manual moving required.

Make sure you have numbered=3D=E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D on the section:



# Acknowledgements
{: numbered=3D"no"}



Examples for doing this:

=
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/cbor-wg/CBORbis/master/draft-ietf-cbor-7=
049bis.md
=
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/core-wg/senml-more-units/master/draft-ie=
tf-core-senml-more-units.md

Or any recent kramdown-rfc draft=E2=80=A6

(This really belongs to the rfc-markdown list, which I have CCed.)

> It wasn't something I'd noticed before.

RFC 7322 was published in September 2014 ;-)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Jay Daley 
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To: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion 
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Subject: [Tools-discuss] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools
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We are planning to send out a survey on I-D authoring tools to authors =
and wider to provide information for a number of groups including RSOC, =
Tools Team, Tools Architecture and Strategy Team, and the LLC.  The =
proposed question plan is below and we would welcome any feedback.  In =
particular:

- are all the important questions asked?
- are all the key tools / processes mentioned?
- is the language clear including for those for whom English is not =
their first language?

thanks in advance
Jay


# Question Plan

[PAGE]=20
Introduction

[HELPTEXT]
Thank you for taking part in this survey.  This survey has been sent to =
everyone who has authored an Internet-Draft (I-D) in the last five years =
and is open to anyone who has ever authored an I-D.

We are hoping to understand what formats and tools you use to author =
I-Ds, from drafting to submission.

In particular, we are hoping to find out more about the use (or non-use) =
of the v3 XML format for I-Ds, which became the publication format for =
RFCs on 16 September 2019.

[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-Ds =
not versions of the same I-D)?
If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the details.=20=

	=E2=80=A2 0
	=E2=80=A2 1-5
	=E2=80=A2 6-10
	=E2=80=A2 11-20
	=E2=80=A2 21-50
	=E2=80=A2 51+

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new =
draft and a new version) to the Datatracker?
Items
	=E2=80=A2 0
	=E2=80=A2 1-10
	=E2=80=A2 11-20
	=E2=80=A2 21-50
	=E2=80=A2 50-100
	=E2=80=A2 101+
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 In total
	=E2=80=A2 Last 2 years (Since September 2018)
	=E2=80=A2 Last year (since September 2019)

[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
How many RFCs have you authored?
	=E2=80=A2 0
	=E2=80=A2 1-5
	=E2=80=A2 6-10
	=E2=80=A2 11-20
	=E2=80=A2 21-50
	=E2=80=A2 51+


[PAGE]
Drafting to submission

[LOGIC]
Only get here if they have authored an I-D.

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How often have you used the following document format(s) and associated =
output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? =
(Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup
	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process
	=E2=80=A2 XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe
	=E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process
	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as =
asciidoctor-rfc) converter
	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process
	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc
	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process
	=E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor
	=E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template
	=E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process
	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s =
Word Template (RFC5385)
	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using a different output =
process (This means specifically using rich text styles that a =
template/convertor will recognise, it does not mean using this an editor =
for one of the other formats)
	=E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a =
different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you =
author in and what output process you use]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Always
	=E2=80=A2 Very often
	=E2=80=A2 Sometimes
	=E2=80=A2 Rarely
	=E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]

[QUESTION - Comment Box]
If you answered =E2=80=9Ca different output process=E2=80=9D in the =
question above then please specify what it is?

[QUESTION - Checkboxes]
How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output =
process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply)
	=E2=80=A2 I researched the tools
	=E2=80=A2 I decided on my authoring format first and then chose =
a tool that uses that
	=E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF =
meeting
	=E2=80=A2 Another author chose for me
	=E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted =
in one of these tools
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How often have you used the following template(s) when drafting an I-D? =
(Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
	=E2=80=A2 A copy of a previous I-D / RFC
	=E2=80=A2 A template from =
https://tools.ietf.org/tools/templates/=20
	=E2=80=A2 A template that came with my chosen authoring =
tool/process
	=E2=80=A2 My own
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Always
	=E2=80=A2 Very often
	=E2=80=A2 Sometimes
	=E2=80=A2 Rarely
	=E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How often have you used the following additional authoring tools? =
(Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
	=E2=80=A2 bibtext2rfc to convert bibtext citations into bibxml =
references
	=E2=80=A2 bibxml2md to convert bibxml references into markdown
	=E2=80=A2 Doublespace tool to change spacing between sentences =
to two spaces
	=E2=80=A2 id2xml to convert a plain text I-D into XML
	=E2=80=A2 idnits to check a draft before submission=20
	=E2=80=A2 idspell to check a draft for spelling errors
	=E2=80=A2 rfc2629xslt to convert RFC XML into another output =
format
	=E2=80=A2 RFC dependency checker
	=E2=80=A2 rfcdiff to find diffs between versions of drafts
	=E2=80=A2 svgcheck to check a draft for SVG schema compliance=20
	=E2=80=A2 xml2rfc validator to validate RFC XML
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Always
	=E2=80=A2 Very often
	=E2=80=A2 Sometimes
	=E2=80=A2 Rarely
	=E2=80=A2 Never [Ensure this is scored as 0]

[QUESTION - Checkboxes]
How do you run your tools? (Check all that apply)
	=E2=80=A2 Locally
	=E2=80=A2 On a private hosted server
	=E2=80=A2 On an IETF public web service
	=E2=80=A2 On a third-party public web service=20
	=E2=80=A2 Using CI/CD with GitHub
	=E2=80=A2 Using CI/CD with Gitlab
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]


[PAGE]
XML v3

[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format?
	=E2=80=A2 Excellent
	=E2=80=A2 Good
	=E2=80=A2 Fair
	=E2=80=A2 Poor
	=E2=80=A2 None

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 XML =
format?
Items
	=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
	=E2=80=A2 Features
	=E2=80=A2 Documentation
	=E2=80=A2 Tools support
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very satisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Satisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
	=E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format to =
you?
Items
	=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
	=E2=80=A2 Features
	=E2=80=A2 Documentation
	=E2=80=A2 Tools support
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very important
	=E2=80=A2 Important
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=E2=80=A2 Unimportant
	=E2=80=A2 Very unimportant
	=E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Comment Box]
What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML format?


[PAGE]
State of the current authoring tools landscape

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring =
tools?
Items
	=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
	=E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes
	=E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata
	=E2=80=A2 Control of output
	=E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats
	=E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added
	=E2=80=A2 Overall quality
	=E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very satisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Satisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
	=E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to =
you?
Items
	=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
	=E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes
	=E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata
	=E2=80=A2 Control of output
	=E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats
	=E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added
	=E2=80=A2 Overall quality
	=E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very important
	=E2=80=A2 Important
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=E2=80=A2 Not important
	=E2=80=A2 Not at all important
	=E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
Should the IETF invest in a new, modern toolchain for authoring drafts?
	=E2=80=A2 Strongly agree
	=E2=80=A2 Agree
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=E2=80=A2 Disagree
	=E2=80=A2 Strongly disagree

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How important is it for you for any new tool to support the following =
authoring formats?=20
Items
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown
	=E2=80=A2 XML
	=E2=80=A2 WYSIWYG
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very important
	=E2=80=A2 Important
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=E2=80=A2 Not important
	=E2=80=A2 Not at all important
	=E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Comment Box]
Do you have any more feedback on authoring tools and formats?



--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


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Hi,

On 2020-9-23, at 0:26, Henrik Levkowetz  wrote:
> Being worked at; complete rewrite.  Not ready for primetime; will be =
within
> months.

is this development happening in the open, e.g., is there a GitHub repo?

The current idnits is basically broken (mostly because the state files =
seem to have gone AWOL), and I'd be happy to try a development version =
of whatever is next rather than live with the current defunct one.

Thanks,
Lars

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From: Henrik Levkowetz 
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Hi Lars,

On 2020-09-30 09:33, Lars Eggert wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> On 2020-9-23, at 0:26, Henrik Levkowetz  wrote:
>> Being worked at; complete rewrite.  Not ready for primetime; will be w=
ithin
>> months.
>=20
> is this development happening in the open, e.g., is there a GitHub repo=
?

There's a repo, but it's currently private.  Will be open when the code
settles.

> The current idnits is basically broken (mostly because the state
> files seem to have gone AWOL), and I'd be happy to try a development
> version of whatever is next rather than live with the current defunct
> one.

Glad to have you test the new version when I get to that point.

The bad state file is a bug and will need to be fixed, irrespective of
testing of the new version.  I'm looking into that right now (looks to
be a matter of missing UTF-8 support in a processing script).


	Henrik


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Hi Lars,

On 2020-09-30 15:15, Henrik Levkowetz wrote:
> The bad state file is a bug and will need to be fixed, irrespective of
> testing of the new version.  I'm looking into that right now (looks to
> be a matter of missing UTF-8 support in a processing script).

The state files should be OK now.


	Henrik


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> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
> Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-Ds n=
ot versions of the same I-D)?
> If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the
> details.

not obvious how for not-a-datatracker-geek.  give instructions, please

> Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new draf=
t and a new version) to the Datatracker?

hard to answer

> How often have you used the following document format(s) and associated o=
utput process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? (Ignor=
e any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
> Items
> 	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup
> 	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe
> 	=E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as asciidoct=
or-rfc) converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc
> 	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor
> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template
> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Templa=
te (RFC5385)
> 	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using a different output process (Thi=
s means specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor will =
recognise, it does not mean using this an editor for one of the other forma=
ts)
> 	=E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a
> different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format
> you author in and what output process you use]

uh, where is xml using a classic ascii text editor, e.g. emacs, and xml2rfc?

randy


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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 12:19:26 +1300
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To: Randy Bush 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools
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> On 1/10/2020, at 12:07 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:
>=20
>> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
>> Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different =
I-Ds not versions of the same I-D)?
>> If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the
>> details.
>=20
> not obvious how for not-a-datatracker-geek.  give instructions, please

Yes, not easy is it.  I=E2=80=99ve asked for help.  (for info my page is =
at https://datatracker.ietf.org/person/Jay%20Daley but I don=E2=80=99t =
know how to navigate to that).

>=20
>> Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new =
draft and a new version) to the Datatracker?
>=20
> hard to answer

Yep, hence the suggestion to look on your Datatracker page.

>=20
>> How often have you used the following document format(s) and =
associated output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring =
an I-D? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
>> Items
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe
>> 	=E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as =
asciidoctor-rfc) converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc
>> 	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor
>> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template
>> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s =
Word Template (RFC5385)
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using a different output =
process (This means specifically using rich text styles that a =
template/convertor will recognise, it does not mean using this an editor =
for one of the other formats)
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a
>> different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format
>> you author in and what output process you use]
>=20
> uh, where is xml using a classic ascii text editor, e.g. emacs, and =
xml2rfc?

That would be "=E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process" but in =
response to someone else I=E2=80=99ve already added

	"XML using xml2rfc to create plain text for submission"

Does that match your usage of xml2rfc?

Jay

>=20
> randy
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


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Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2020 09:22:17 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" 
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On Thu, Oct 1, 2020, at 09:07, Randy Bush wrote:
> > [QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
> > Approximately, how many I-Ds have you authored in total (different I-Ds not versions of the same I-D)?
> > If you need a reminder then your Datatracker page will have the
> > details.
> 
> not obvious how for not-a-datatracker-geek.  give instructions, please

Reasonable request.  https://datatracker.ietf.org/person/Randy%20Bush (or https://datatracker.ietf.org/person/)

> uh, where is xml using a classic ascii text editor, e.g. emacs, and xml2rfc?

Mea culpa.  I reviewed this and I should have noticed that.  I used to use nxml-mode all the time until I found easier options.  I think that the "XML with other" option might fit, but it isn't clear enough to capture what is still a pretty common flow.


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>>> Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a new draft and a new version) to the Datatracker?
>> hard to answer
> Yep, hence the suggestion to look on your Datatracker page.

that would be expecting a lot from datatracker.  but i wait to learn

>   "XML using xml2rfc to create plain text for submission"
> Does that match your usage of xml2rfc?

yes, but many of your other options have the attribute of what kind of
editor.  hence my saying "ascii editor and xml2rfc" which kinda assumes
that i edited xml.

randy


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> On 1/10/2020, at 12:24 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:
>=20
>>>> Approximately, how many times have you submitted a draft (both a =
new draft and a new version) to the Datatracker?
>>> hard to answer
>> Yep, hence the suggestion to look on your Datatracker page.
>=20
> that would be expecting a lot from datatracker.  but i wait to learn
>=20
>>  "XML using xml2rfc to create plain text for submission"
>> Does that match your usage of xml2rfc?
>=20
> yes, but many of your other options have the attribute of what kind of
> editor.  hence my saying "ascii editor and xml2rfc" which kinda =
assumes
> that i edited xml.

I=E2=80=99ve only mentioned an editor where it has specific =
functionality (either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D =
authoring.

I don=E2=80=99t think it adds anything for us to find out if someone =
wrote the XML in one of 100+ XML editors or 10000+ text editors.  Do you =
agree?

Jay

>=20
> randy
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


--Apple-Mail=_9C403A23-F6AE-436C-9DA1-F8CB162AA138
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8



On 1/10/2020, at 12:24 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> =
wrote:

Approximately, how many =
times have you submitted a draft (both a new draft and a new version) to =
the Datatracker?
hard to answer
Yep, hence the suggestion to look on your =
Datatracker page.

that would =
be expecting a lot from datatracker.  but i wait to learn

 =
 "XML using xml2rfc to create plain text for submission"
Does that match your usage of xml2rfc?

yes, but many of your other =
options have the attribute of what kind of
editor. =
 hence my saying "ascii editor and xml2rfc" which kinda assumes
that i edited xml.

I=E2=80=
=99ve only mentioned an editor where it has specific functionality =
(either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D =
authoring.

I don=E2=80=99t think it =
adds anything for us to find out if someone wrote the XML in one of 100+ =
XML editors or 10000+ text editors.  Do you agree?

Jay


randy




-- 
Jay Daley
IETF =
Executive Director
jay@ietf.org




=

--Apple-Mail=_9C403A23-F6AE-436C-9DA1-F8CB162AA138--


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From: Dan York 
To: Jay Daley 
CC: "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" , Tools Discussion 
Thread-Topic: [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools
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From nobody Wed Sep 30 18:27:30 2020
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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 18:27:23 -0700
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From: Randy Bush 
To: Jay Daley 
Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools
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> I=A2ve only mentioned an editor where it has specific functionality
> (either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D authoring.

i guess you have never met emacs' xml mode

randy


From nobody Wed Sep 30 18:39:27 2020
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Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, Tools Discussion 
To: Randy Bush 
References: <71CCD4C4-2CBA-4AD3-A254-2F19B261D882@ietf.org>  <1071F4D3-3F36-4012-9CBB-19DDDE6D0564@ietf.org>  <9F1ABBE7-DC90-4C3C-8493-E89243C73C4C@ietf.org> 
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> On 1/10/2020, at 2:27 PM, Randy Bush  wrote:
>=20
>> I=E2=80=99ve only mentioned an editor where it has specific =
functionality
>> (either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D authoring.
>=20
> i guess you have never met emacs' xml mode

I wouldn=E2=80=99t describe that as specific functionality to support =
I-D authoring.  An example of the what I mean is the xml2rfc-xxe plugin =
to XMLMind, which is maintained by some IETF volunteers.

I=E2=80=99m not sure we get anywhere by asking people if they prefer vi =
or emacs.

Jay

>=20
> randy
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


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On 1/10/2020, at 2:27 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> =
wrote:

I=E2=80=99ve only =
mentioned an editor where it has specific functionality
(either in-built or via a plugin) to support I-D =
authoring.

i guess you have =
never met emacs' xml mode

I wouldn=E2=80=99t describe that as specific =
functionality to support I-D authoring.  An example of the what I =
mean is the xml2rfc-xxe plugin to XMLMind, which is maintained by some =
IETF volunteers.

I=E2=80=99m not =
sure we get anywhere by asking people if they prefer vi or =
emacs.

Jay


randy




-- 
Jay Daley
IETF =
Executive Director
jay@ietf.org




=

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From nobody Wed Sep 30 18:44:28 2020
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From: Jay Daley 
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:44:21 +1300
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To: Dan York 
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Thanks Dan

> On 1/10/2020, at 2:08 PM, Dan York  wrote:
>=20
> Jay,
> A couple of comments inline=E2=80=A6=20
>=20
>> On Sep 29, 2020, at 10:58 PM, Jay Daley  wrote:
>>=20
>> [QUESTION - Checkboxes]
>> How did you choose the document format(s) and associated output =
process(es) that you use? (Check all that apply)
>> 	=E2=80=A2 I researched the tools
>> 	=E2=80=A2 I decided on my authoring format first and then chose =
a tool that uses that
>> 	=E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF =
meeting
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Another author chose for me
>=20
> For clarity, perhaps =E2=80=9CAnother author of my document chose for =
me=E2=80=9D
>=20
>> 	=E2=80=A2 The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted =
in one of these tools
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
>=20
> What about something like =E2=80=9CSomeone else helped me set up my =
tools=E2=80=9D?  I know I=E2=80=99ve helped a couple of people get set =
up by explaining what I use and pointing people to tools.  You could =
think of that as =E2=80=9CI researched my tools=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 but =
it might be interesting to know how much is really being passed around =
by people sharing info with each other.

That and the suggestion above are both good, thanks.

>=20
>>=20
>> [PAGE]
>> XML v3
>=20
> This entire section below assumes you either author in XML or have =
sufficient complexity in your documents where you need to know about =
XMLv3. In recent years I=E2=80=99ve shifted to writing drafts entirely =
in Markdown, and to be honest all my drafts have been simple enough in =
their text and formatting that I haven=E2=80=99t needed to know anything =
about the underlying XML. The transition from XML v2 to v3 did not seem =
to make a difference for my documents.
>=20
> I think there are probably some % of authors who are in the same =
situation. Particularly newer authors who did not come out of the XML =
world and do their editing in some text format like Markdown or =
AsciiDoc, or use MS Word.
>=20
> I understand the need to ask these questions because there *are* =
authors who do care about the v3 format (and in some cases care very =
strongly).
>=20
> Maybe to make it easier on survey respondents, if you are using =
SurveyMonkey or some similar tool, perhaps you can use the option to =
conditionally display questions so that if someone answers =E2=80=9CNone=E2=
=80=9D on the knowledge of the v3 format, then they won=E2=80=99t see =
the additional questions.

My plan was to make those optional rather than use the logic but I will =
look at that again when I get to testing the survey flow.

>=20
>>=20
>> [QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
>> How do you rate your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format?
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Excellent
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Good
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Fair
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Poor
>> 	=E2=80=A2 None
>>=20
>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
>> How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of the v3 =
XML format?
>> Items
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Features
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Documentation
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Tools support
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
>> Scale
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Very satisfied
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Satisfied
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
>> 	=E2=80=A2 N/A
>>=20
>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
>> How important are the following characteristics of the v3 XML format =
to you?
>> Items
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Features
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Documentation
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Tools support
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
>> Scale
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Very important
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Important
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Unimportant
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Very unimportant
>> 	=E2=80=A2 N/A
>>=20
>> [QUESTION - Comment Box]
>> What more needs to be done to support the rollout of the v3 XML =
format?
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> [PAGE]
>> State of the current authoring tools landscape
>=20
> On these two questions below, do we want to include something about =
=E2=80=9CIntegration with version control systems=E2=80=9D?  I=E2=80=99m =
thinking about some of the different tools that are designed to work =
with git / GitHub.

Yes I will add that.

thanks
Jay


>=20
>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
>> How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of authoring =
tools?
>> Items
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Control of output
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Overall quality
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
>> Scale
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Very satisfied
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Satisfied
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
>> 	=E2=80=A2 N/A
>>=20
>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
>> How Important are the following characteristics of authoring tools to =
you?
>> Items
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF processes
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Support for the full range of tags / metadata
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Control of output
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Speed at which new features are added
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Overall quality
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Choice of different tools
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE SPECIFY]
>> Scale
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Very important
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Important
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Not important
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Not at all important
>> 	=E2=80=A2 N/A
>=20
> Regards,
> Dan
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


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Thanks Dan

On 1/10/2020, at 2:08 PM, Dan =
York <york@isoc.org>=
 wrote:

Jay,
A couple of comments inline=E2=80=A6 

On Sep =
29, 2020, at 10:58 PM, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

[QUESTION - Checkboxes]
How did you choose the =
document format(s) and associated output process(es) that you use? =
(Check all that apply)
	=E2=80=A2 I researched the =
tools
	=E2=80=A2 I decided on my =
authoring format first and then chose a tool that uses that
	=
=E2=80=A2 I saw a presentation on one of the tools at an IETF =
meeting
	=E2=80=A2 Another author chose =
for me

For clarity, perhaps =
=E2=80=9CAnother author of my document chose for me=E2=80=9D

	=E2=80=A2 =
The I-D I wanted to contribute to was already drafted in one of these =
tools
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE =
SPECIFY]

What about something =
like =E2=80=9CSomeone else helped me set up my tools=E2=80=9D?  I =
know I=E2=80=99ve helped a couple of people get set up by explaining =
what I use and pointing people to tools.  You could think of that =
as =E2=80=9CI researched my tools=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 but it might be =
interesting to know how much is really being passed around by people =
sharing info with each other.

That =
and the suggestion above are both good, thanks.



[PAGE]
XML v3

This entire section below assumes you either author in XML or =
have sufficient complexity in your documents where you need to know =
about XMLv3. In recent years I=E2=80=99ve shifted to writing drafts =
entirely in Markdown, and to be honest all my drafts have been simple =
enough in their text and formatting that I haven=E2=80=99t needed to =
know anything about the underlying XML. The transition from XML v2 to v3 =
did not seem to make a difference for my documents.

I think there are probably some % of authors who are in the =
same situation. Particularly newer authors who did not come out of the =
XML world and do their editing in some text format like Markdown or =
AsciiDoc, or use MS Word.

I understand the =
need to ask these questions because there *are* authors who do care =
about the v3 format (and in some cases care very strongly).

Maybe to make it easier on survey respondents, =
if you are using SurveyMonkey or some similar tool, perhaps you can use =
the option to conditionally display questions so that if someone answers =
=E2=80=9CNone=E2=80=9D on the knowledge of the v3 format, then they =
won=E2=80=99t see the additional questions.

My =
plan was to make those optional rather than use the logic but I will =
look at that again when I get to testing the survey flow.



[QUESTION - Multiple Choice]
How do you rate =
your knowledge of the v3 official RFC/I-D XML format?
	=E2=80=A2 =
Excellent
	=E2=80=A2 Good
	=E2=80=A2 =
Fair
	=E2=80=A2 Poor
	=E2=80=A2 =
None

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of =
the v3 XML format?
Items
	=E2=80=A2 =
Ease of use
	=E2=80=A2 Features
	=
=E2=80=A2 Documentation
	=E2=80=A2 =
Tools support
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE =
SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very satisfied
	=
=E2=80=A2 Satisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=
=E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
	=
=E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - =
Matrix/Rating Scale]
How important are the following =
characteristics of the v3 XML format to you?
Items
	=
=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
	=E2=80=A2 Features
	=
=E2=80=A2 Documentation
	=E2=80=A2 =
Tools support
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE =
SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very important
	=
=E2=80=A2 Important
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=
=E2=80=A2 Unimportant
	=E2=80=A2 Very unimportant
	=
=E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - Comment =
Box]
What more needs to be done to support the rollout of =
the v3 XML format?



[PAGE]
State of the current authoring tools landscape

On these two questions below, do =
we want to include something about =E2=80=9CIntegration with version =
control systems=E2=80=9D?  I=E2=80=99m thinking about some of the =
different tools that are designed to work with git / GitHub.

Yes I will =
add that.

thanks
Jay



[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How satisfied are you with the following characteristics of =
authoring tools?
Items
	=E2=80=A2 =
Ease of use
	=E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF =
processes
	=E2=80=A2 Support for the full =
range of tags / metadata
	=E2=80=A2 Control of output
	=
=E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats
	=E2=80=A2 =
Speed at which new features are added
	=E2=80=A2 =
Overall quality
	=E2=80=A2 Choice of different =
tools
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE =
SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very satisfied
	=
=E2=80=A2 Satisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=
=E2=80=A2 Dissatisfied
	=E2=80=A2 Very dissatisfied
	=
=E2=80=A2 N/A

[QUESTION - =
Matrix/Rating Scale]
How Important are the following =
characteristics of authoring tools to you?
Items
	=
=E2=80=A2 Ease of use
	=E2=80=A2 Integration with IETF =
processes
	=E2=80=A2 Support for the full =
range of tags / metadata
	=E2=80=A2 Control of output
	=
=E2=80=A2 Support of various output formats
	=E2=80=A2 =
Speed at which new features are added
	=E2=80=A2 =
Overall quality
	=E2=80=A2 Choice of different =
tools
	=E2=80=A2 Other [PLEASE =
SPECIFY]
Scale
	=E2=80=A2 Very important
	=
=E2=80=A2 Important
	=E2=80=A2 Neutral
	=
=E2=80=A2 Not important
	=E2=80=A2 =
Not at all important
	=E2=80=A2 N/A

Regards,
Dan




-- 
Jay Daley
IETF =
Executive Director
jay@ietf.org




=

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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools
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Jay Daley  writes:

> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
> How often have you used the following document format(s) and associated o=
utput process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? (Ignor=
e any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
> Items
> 	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup
> 	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe
> 	=E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as asciidoct=
or-rfc) converter
> 	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc
> 	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor
> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template
> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process
> 	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Templa=
te (RFC5385)
> 	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using a different output process (Thi=
s means specifically using rich text styles that a template/convertor will =
recognise, it does not mean using this an editor for one of the other forma=
ts)
> 	=E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a differen=
t format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you author in a=
nd what output process you use]

There seem to be category inconsistency here.  It appears to me that the
major differentiator in this list is "What do you write the I-D in?",
viz., plain text, markdown, XML, AsciiDoc, TeX, nroff, MS Word.  Then
attached to that is "How do you output the I-D from that source?", which
seems to be "no markup", "a different output process", etc., etc.  And
then there's the element "What tool do you use to write the source?",
which can vary from completely unstated to tools specifically designed
to write I-Ds (e.g., Joe Touch's Word template).

What makes the choices hard to parse is that while all of the choices
contain the source file type, only some specify the editing tool, and
only some have the output process.  E.g., there are "XMLMind editor ->
XML -> xml2rfc", "XML -> a different output process", and "plain text",
each of which specifies a different subset of these elements.

Perhaps splitting out the three elements would make the choices clearer,
and possibly allow you to cover the universe of possibilities more
thoroughly.

Dale


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From: Jay Daley 
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Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:19:08 +1300
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Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org
To: "Dale R. Worley" 
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Proposed survey on I-D authoring tools
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Thanks Dale

> On 1/10/2020, at 3:05 PM, Dale R. Worley  wrote:
>=20
> Jay Daley  writes:
>=20
>> [QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
>> How often have you used the following document format(s) and =
associated output process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring =
an I-D? (Ignore any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
>> Items
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using no markup
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the kramdown-rfc2629 converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the mmark converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the draftr converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the Pandoc2rfc converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 XML using the XMLMind editor and xml2rfc-xxe
>> 	=E2=80=A2 XML using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the metanorma-ietf (formerly known as =
asciidoctor-rfc) converter
>> 	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc
>> 	=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor
>> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using nroff2xml template
>> 	=E2=80=A2 nroff using a different output process
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s =
Word Template (RFC5385)
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich text using a different output =
process (This means specifically using rich text styles that a =
template/convertor will recognise, it does not mean using this an editor =
for one of the other formats)
>> 	=E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a =
different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you =
author in and what output process you use]
>=20
> There seem to be category inconsistency here.  It appears to me that =
the
> major differentiator in this list is "What do you write the I-D in?",
> viz., plain text, markdown, XML, AsciiDoc, TeX, nroff, MS Word.  Then
> attached to that is "How do you output the I-D from that source?", =
which
> seems to be "no markup", "a different output process", etc., etc.  And
> then there's the element "What tool do you use to write the source?",
> which can vary from completely unstated to tools specifically designed
> to write I-Ds (e.g., Joe Touch's Word template).
>=20
> What makes the choices hard to parse is that while all of the choices
> contain the source file type, only some specify the editing tool, and
> only some have the output process.  E.g., there are "XMLMind editor ->
> XML -> xml2rfc", "XML -> a different output process", and "plain =
text",
> each of which specifies a different subset of these elements.
>=20
> Perhaps splitting out the three elements would make the choices =
clearer,
> and possibly allow you to cover the universe of possibilities more
> thoroughly.

I initially wrote this with those elements split out but from early =
reviews it became clear that was just too complex because the two =
elements of format and output tool are so closely linked and we actually =
need to understand that as a whole process.

I suspect I need to add something to explain that we=E2=80=99re not =
really interested in what the editor is and the only reason we mentioned =
editors is because they are tied to the specific output tools.  i.e. =
lyx2rfc only works with lyx, xml2rfc-xxe only works with XMLMind, nroff =
Edit is a standalone product solely for I-D authoring, and Joe Touch=E2=80=
=99s template only works on MS Word.  I could reword those as

- Tex / LaTeX using lyx2rfc (requires Lyx)
- XML using xml2rfc-xxe (requires XMLMind)
- MS Rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Template (requires MS =
Word)

Does that work better?

Jay

>=20
> Dale
>=20

--=20
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org


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	charset=utf-8

Thanks Dale

On 1/10/2020, at 3:05 PM, Dale =
R. Worley <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:

Jay =
Daley <jay@ietf.org> =
writes:

[QUESTION - Matrix/Rating Scale]
How often have =
you used the following document format(s) and associated output =
process(es) (editor/template/converter) when authoring an I-D? (Ignore =
any you don=E2=80=99t know about)
Items
	=E2=80=A2 =
Plain text using no markup
	=E2=80=A2 Plain text using a =
different output process
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the =
kramdown-rfc2629 converter
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the =
mmark converter
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the =
draftr converter
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using the =
Pandoc2rfc converter
	=E2=80=A2 Markdown using a =
different output process
	=E2=80=A2 XML using the XMLMind =
editor and xml2rfc-xxe
	=E2=80=A2 XML using a different =
output process
	=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using the =
metanorma-ietf (formerly known as asciidoctor-rfc) converter
	=
=E2=80=A2 AsciiDoc using a different output process
	=
=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using Lyx editor and lyx2rfc
	=
=E2=80=A2 TeX / LaTeX using a different output process
	=
=E2=80=A2 nroff using the Nroff Edit editor
	=E2=80=A2 =
nroff using nroff2xml template
	=E2=80=A2 =
nroff using a different output process
	=E2=80=A2 =
Microsoft Word rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word Template =
(RFC5385)
	=E2=80=A2 Microsoft Word rich =
text using a different output process (This means specifically using =
rich text styles that a template/convertor will recognise, it does not =
mean using this an editor for one of the other formats)
	=
=E2=80=A2 Other format (Only use this option if you author in a =
different format to all of those above) [PLEASE SPECIFY what format you =
author in and what output process you use]

There seem to be category inconsistency here.  It =
appears to me that the
major differentiator in this list =
is "What do you write the I-D in?",
viz., plain text, =
markdown, XML, AsciiDoc, TeX, nroff, MS Word.  Then
attached to that is "How do you output the I-D from that =
source?", which
seems to be "no markup", "a different =
output process", etc., etc.  And
then there's the =
element "What tool do you use to write the source?",
which =
can vary from completely unstated to tools specifically designed
to write I-Ds (e.g., Joe Touch's Word template).

What makes the choices hard to parse is that =
while all of the choices
contain the source file type, =
only some specify the editing tool, and
only some have the =
output process.  E.g., there are "XMLMind editor ->
XML -> xml2rfc", "XML -> a different output process", =
and "plain text",
each of which specifies a different =
subset of these elements.

Perhaps splitting =
out the three elements would make the choices clearer,
and =
possibly allow you to cover the universe of possibilities more
thoroughly.

I initially wrote this with those elements split =
out but from early reviews it became clear that was just too complex =
because the two elements of format and output tool are so closely linked =
and we actually need to understand that as a whole =
process.

I suspect I need to add =
something to explain that we=E2=80=99re not really interested in what =
the editor is and the only reason we mentioned editors is because they =
are tied to the specific output tools.  i.e. lyx2rfc only works =
with lyx, xml2rfc-xxe only works with XMLMind, nroff Edit is a =
standalone product solely for I-D authoring, and Joe Touch=E2=80=99s =
template only works on MS Word.  I could reword those =
as

- Tex / LaTeX using lyx2rfc =
(requires Lyx)
- XML using xml2rfc-xxe (requires =
XMLMind)
- MS Rich text using Joe Touch=E2=80=99s Word =
Template (requires MS Word)

Does =
that work better?

Jay


Dale




-- 
Jay Daley
IETF =
Executive Director
jay@ietf.org




=

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