From nobody Sat Apr 3 19:23:20 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D533A0BF8 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.811 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.811 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT=1.999, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL=1.31, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WfmGA0pyNEZ9 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BC2D3A0BF5 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.51] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 1342Nm7g015637 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 19:23:49 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.51] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: tools-discuss Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2021 19:23:11 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 02:23:20 -0000 See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc9007 (Hat tip to https://twitter.com/elithebearded/status/1378520379229044736 for pointing it out, and the @FakeUnicode Twitter user for reposting.) From nobody Sat Apr 3 20:41:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 380E23A1262 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:41:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nGqEv-Ykwzoh for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A79863A1260 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2021 20:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id f29so3593173pgm.8 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:41:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=v/jW1VeRAehz9VJOGD0uRhwbk1WR5DWhNWWJLPkHDAA=; b=g43WcDkaqiSjRDnMQD1fdgloYQDnA9bK/3uYgsH3j7Nn9zcJzK5C4AtTJl7/EWYoJZ i9mnfBPNfc5kvzXaQs0K5AilXYTFGz1aLvoVDFFQgOG0ASQ3tYnaxTt48E1qSXpStFJk D3jm7B9yvocKYg8jV8YsMS0Kh8KyyxKGSIBGYFoP+9yZyVvrlZKc+sijxhrYip0JN/vG hNACOXKZJW5e7/YkiC81Bow20L+ZZ71f6sdfxyTVNj9tFpJRTPj+stWOgxHayCkeW9e5 rvXTVeoXUSkkC2Aa3mAccu0Tk7+ob6HV35ySXR1oMesCO47724QsKamogRpOVkmRYHCu lYtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=v/jW1VeRAehz9VJOGD0uRhwbk1WR5DWhNWWJLPkHDAA=; b=nggtSbc+7RVarfoU5EYUumz/u9J+8PgQTIjkXsg0rGSXMyVfahtUMKI9XLRXUyK1KX sjCJk11Q9ikI0huRjvGoBBuEn7CD6Ur3Esq2tfMvjiPveC57f+VHXidnq/k5SxinXDld LYTzMEw3Ej6ZA6p/tEB9162Yg/INUyCf1cflurVj0SKsdBA2wcRAuWkGU6q2YoKpL/93 Ox/M2AgZI3ZxqNUoZl13/NnU0KdrlfM4TmPGL+f2OValy7CcJ9WFN5DSmdL59/Vwm0Oa C/MPii8zFbWRq+eql2OGWoCGdzZ/ucFn8hQyhkDDl/22zCHOxi7l+mPMHzADJYi5gJ2Z 56lw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533AzlViAvFriPiYcwcsbgzq2PkUz9QVQ17tk21p8bdzwuhxzso+ WNctYchKbZgZWJoOQgaP7JcuyC3NWn50Yw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwvbc1QQRzTxuzSyMf110fw7h6FnL2c1dUfw+O+Hg2WH7wh9KGyLlTuiq5a6FhciemI3c2zmw== X-Received: by 2002:a63:eb49:: with SMTP id b9mr8827244pgk.318.1617507685993; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:41:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a8sm12205750pfk.138.2021.04.03.20.41.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 03 Apr 2021 20:41:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Hoffman , tools-discuss References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 15:41:21 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 03:41:32 -0000 Paul, https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9007 is OK. And the tools repository is going away anyway. Maybe the Twitterland needs to be told. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9007.html is even more OK. I mean, who cares about the htmlized versions of HTML RFCs? Regards Brian Carpenter On 04-Apr-21 14:23, Paul Hoffman wrote: > See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc9007 > > (Hat tip to https://twitter.com/elithebearded/status/1378520379229044736 > for pointing it out, and the @FakeUnicode Twitter user for reposting.) > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > From nobody Sun Apr 4 00:36:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9903A1B30 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 00:36:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tLqdTH1CcEcu for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 00:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AAE33A1B2F for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 00:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.152] (p548dc178.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.193.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FClwT6h5qzyWM; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:36:41 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:36:41 +0200 Cc: Paul Hoffman , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <57C25B76-B105-4DB4-BCA1-C6C35C7E103E@tzi.org> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 07:36:47 -0000 On 4. Apr 2021, at 05:41, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Maybe the Twitterland needs to be told. Did. https://twitter.com/c4bo/status/1378611991212875779 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Apr 4 09:14:41 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9FC3A0B69 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:14:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL=1.31, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 63YNED0cNMho for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 399C93A0B63 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.10.227] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 134GF5Ce046138 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:15:05 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.10.10.227] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: tools-discuss Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 09:14:28 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 16:14:41 -0000 On 3 Apr 2021, at 20:41, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9007 is OK. Of course. If it didn't, I would have reported that as well. > And the tools repository is going away anyway. "going to" does not help current programs that generate URLs to the site that has worked for a very long time. > Maybe the Twitterland needs to be told. That will be as useful as telling them that they should all be using IPv6 addressing. I'm not saying you shouldn't try, but I am saying that us doing so absolves us from the responsibility to maintain the current infrastructure. > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9007.html is even more OK. I mean, > who cares about the htmlized versions of HTML RFCs? Everyone with tools that generates URLs to them. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Sun Apr 4 09:19:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D873A0BD3 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:19:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irPgX47-sUm8 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E6613A0BD2 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:19:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dc178.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.193.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FCzWd0F5nzybX; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:19:25 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:19:24 +0200 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 639245964.507234-0f42af6633b96091e1916399c202bbd0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <75441513-8DBB-4A0E-A943-E0CF22CDCD16@tzi.org> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 16:19:32 -0000 On 2021-04-04, at 18:14, Paul Hoffman wrote: >=20 > Everyone with tools that generates URLs to them. Cool URIs are stable [1]. Those URIs are not going away. Google still prioritizes them. Thousands of RFC, I-Ds, papers, articles, blog entries reference them. (And the above tools still generate them.) I genuinely hate to say this, but at some point we=E2=80=99ll need to = find a way to take control of what is behind these URIs. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten [1]: https://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html From nobody Sun Apr 4 10:55:55 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28EED3A12E5 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 10:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zQ6KWaYVjnt3 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 10:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 409123A12E3 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 10:55:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1617558944; bh=ojdTK2INkIsT6XoaM8fmW251Erc4j2DKJ0tDCqjnSWk=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=PofS/wSQcMTrp8eeoh6D4ycTOme3ZCS2fSMwSYmEb/wqCiDy+QFSYzclAd2WUB4W2 DfCOBfKrIz4bhucoG/PGoLwFZu4OKTulCXfKYxlM1V6YKfCBGO72yac8XRgrQV+qtR 7T2p//vmlCICOZeLT1znMLuCb2Y1EzEaqICCNHa8= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.62.175]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1Mnpru-1lw40L427W-00pO3M for ; Sun, 04 Apr 2021 19:55:44 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <75441513-8DBB-4A0E-A943-E0CF22CDCD16@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <7f98e83b-505e-325d-6795-8fff85517112@gmx.de> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 19:55:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <75441513-8DBB-4A0E-A943-E0CF22CDCD16@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:TJlV5VqrCSefA1Z0ag7Cmos8PwU/YK0SyVtCOTjNOhxr6R6il3H KsatQN3iz7x0KUpY6IlSOJmUVkoZ7dQF+YfZdLJxGQbajYO2tS8e84qB4E0B3AZ1PGrg8vz WuJ++NSgN5Zb7BlbFsttmzSW8664ezbJrJ1aE04lLyNrMdJlS2X2cvbTNOjufHGmilj2Yeh 8pOObL9K9hiMJasstPhyQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:sEhHRHKfXyM=:3XAuBzS9Ei7VK7Kbc83Nwk kFHQ4U0WY5rR1vqLpWZmaXJEdDslpOdid7Livlts4kDqSykkXV6WmuVXnUTK0ky0hA9lueIbb 2f4a0b3/Nv8u61o2OiBw/Wwm7amDFl/tJXIEW+g5J69eTWpTvZS9eHIYX2+bXtLBlGSAdiHYx l6CzGgAt8XOk3n7UDxC2qVsDPD2//6XHocUCAiJz3eqcTWLwi0WWffmMTFFRgUk83je7tq6ef Cr18w5RUsfF5ytIKaGkX8ArK5pRBzCTekn1GkWb3998Qs7d766JvjuzHp2aUgJajClGB7VGyd dUntd5kJZrDoef4+VlFIPQcgNxYUzxxzc7F6T5Z34RMOk8NJmjptSmy8PrDpSBTD7P9UzsUtv ipWFLOJ8wnBnlY5gunX+unRdutvkyILipOVAl6o1Bn5l/MXvSbGOucZ8VRDq2C4y+7LhpK8ks z3rCFfb0hsRVYVnZzComQUpmNnih1mkvJW8TYjJ/MIpE71MsfaRCpNcTZU7xcRZWfOySulZe/ lSXRI87VBwN84fATwCrdxCfdQBcw2RKEHkMLmmNEEqO2XKK813SVS5ZeOKwwl3qb9Ggv9wEC1 jhvO918q1o0LxK3dcnqcpcXSQNN5IdnFe9hLD38892ExCuU3diXqE6BGh2bFCUQH0GXeKFhyS oat9VvGD9PMtzzkz5xZQ440XYwrO+q3OEy6ljVpnm88ek32loX6V0IN8vBXmxwXvidz4+N2/L gfXyYCFxx2pMQBv+ZY3/ekVBMQ9nZf1rq41f2fVcAwQAqSrMC0RFBbf/aay1tOV2yy7MWe5KN HtEFvwFN1SphFnB0lrqyej5yTIgZ2t4Slbp+Md8YT8SPf1ETpp0f758Zw+P6OcKeK5iKyGA/3 YooaW0u0n71aibYx+aE//8U+Nafdzl/oZuOs5P4xq5hQqm+s/YOpkWZcmg6whzXSJ+r03Wzxn XAHvMNFd63fDlF0QvZFbdfIj9lVeM+WeQPY+rSkBkxjNRhu8Pm2k0ycCIHrJBdKSXMVs7MNDg 04+M0ejffGUAV3vk1+v7sqx+7T2xFoQhNMzTWIKKCgwvIookb067ozamk/zTBvpVArYXIbUlx rfK29ZCUm1/YjwGcmTiD1edoOzgTyfqAUtUMeTLCcXVs69B2CzVLKvq6I2cVKCEGpt0Hp4Tz2 yEmFw1QQgQ8lNGwiPMxBQuR8cgPBcPWOtk/72R/RQopQ6oZJTSqt0qwhxW1tk/r6DeOrIktoc nJROQQuMDMgLExQYZ Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 17:55:53 -0000 Am 04.04.2021 um 18:19 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > On 2021-04-04, at 18:14, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> >> Everyone with tools that generates URLs to them. > > Cool URIs are stable [1]. > Those URIs are not going away. > Google still prioritizes them. > Thousands of RFC, I-Ds, papers, articles, blog entries reference them. > (And the above tools still generate them.) > > I genuinely hate to say this, but at some point we=E2=80=99ll need to fi= nd a way to take control of what is behind these URIs. > ... True. Maybe just redirect? Best regards, Julian From nobody Sun Apr 4 11:36:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85A63A1492 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:36:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL=1.31, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9eNsLivTu8dn for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AF5A3A1490 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.51] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 134IbEef050062 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:37:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.51] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: "Julian Reschke" Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 11:36:38 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7f98e83b-505e-325d-6795-8fff85517112@gmx.de> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <75441513-8DBB-4A0E-A943-E0CF22CDCD16@tzi.org> <7f98e83b-505e-325d-6795-8fff85517112@gmx.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 18:36:51 -0000 On 4 Apr 2021, at 10:55, Julian Reschke wrote: > Am 04.04.2021 um 18:19 schrieb Carsten Bormann: >> On 2021-04-04, at 18:14, Paul Hoffman wrote: >>> >>> Everyone with tools that generates URLs to them. >> >> Cool URIs are stable [1]. >> Those URIs are not going away. >> Google still prioritizes them. >> Thousands of RFC, I-Ds, papers, articles, blog entries reference >> them. >> (And the above tools still generate them.) >> >> I genuinely hate to say this, but at some point we’ll need to find >> a way to take control of what is behind these URIs. >> ... > > True. Maybe just redirect? That would be the easiest solution to implement and, at the same time, the most flexible for the future. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Sun Apr 4 12:25:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DA83A1651 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 12:25:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xw2P1pfRYj7m for ; 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boundary="0000000000008e5f4405bf2a8b19" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 19:25:42 -0000 --0000000000008e5f4405bf2a8b19 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 5LiN55So6Kqq5LqG77yM5L2g5YCRd29ya2luZyBncm91cCwg6Lefd29ybGQgcHJlc3MsDQp0b29s c+S4gOaoo++8jOi3n2dpdGh1YuS4gOi1t+i3n+eJueacl+aZruWQiOS9nO+8jOaIkeS4jeacg+WG jeebuOS/oeS9oOWAke+8jOiAjOS4lOS9oOWAkeWPquaYr+WboOeCuuacieS7luWAkeWBmuS/neit t+WCmO+8jOaIkeacg+aUueiuiuWIsO+8jOS9oOWAkemAo+iiq+Wus+eahOmOluWMmeS5n+aykuac ieWbnuaUtu+8jOS4gOebtOeUqO+8jOaIkeeci+WIsOaYr+WcqOS4reWci+aUr+S7mOWvtu+8jOS/ neWuieWFrOWPuOWPiuS4gOWAi+S6uueUqOaIkeWls+aci+WPi+iiq+aQtueahGlwaG9uZTjmiYvm qZ/ovYnnp7vph5HpjKLvvIzkvaDlgJHlhajpg6jlt7LkuI3lj6/nm7jkv6HvvIzliKXorpPmiJHm nInmqZ/mnIPvvIzmiJHlt7Lplovlp4vmib7kuIDlgIvkurrljZTliqnmiJHvvIzogIzkuJTlsLHn rpfpgqPkurrkuI3ljZTliqnvvIzmiJHvvIzmsLjpgaDkuZ/kuI3mnIPlho3nlKjpjpbljJnlgZrk u7vkvZXkuovvvIzmiJHpjpbljJnmmK/opIfoo73kuI3liLDnmoTvvIzkvaDlgJHmkLbotbDmmK/p jKLvvIznlKjkuI3lrozvvJ/nlKjkuI3lrozlsLHkuI3nlKjlho3mib7miJHlkKfvvIzlpb3nrJHv vIzkuIDnvqTnhKHnn6XnmoTkurrvvIzmiJHmnIPmiorkvaDlgJHlsIHpjpbvvIzlhajpg6jkurrv vIzkuZ/liKXmg7PnlKjmuKzoqabljrvpqJnmiJHmiornqIvlvI/orpPkvaDlgJHmm7TmlrDvvIzm iYDmnInlubPlj7DmiJHkuZ/kuI3mnIPkuIrljrvvvIzmiJHkuI3mnIPorpPkvaDlgJHlvpfliLDv vIzmrbvlv4PlkKfvvIzkvaDlgJHlj6rmmK/osqrlv4PnmoTkurrvvIzpgY7ljrvvvIzlgZrkuobl pJrlsJHlubTvvIzkuZ/mspLkvZznlKjvvIzlm6DngrrkvaDlgJHlhajlt7Log4zlj5vlpbnkuIDl rrbkurrvvIzljrvmrbvlkKfvvIzliKXlho3miZPmk77miJHvvIzntYLmnInkuIDlpKnmiJHmnIPo v73nqbbkvaDlgJHlhajpg6jkurrvvIznmYjniakNCg0K5ZyoIDIwMjHlubQ05pyINeaXpSDpgLHk uIAgMDE6NTbvvIxKdWxpYW4gUmVzY2hrZSA8anVsaWFuLnJlc2Noa2VAZ214LmRlPiDlr6vpgZPv vJoNCg0KPiBBbSAwNC4wNC4yMDIxIHVtIDE4OjE5IHNjaHJpZWIgQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5uOg0K PiA+IE9uIDIwMjEtMDQtMDQsIGF0IDE4OjE0LCBQYXVsIEhvZmZtYW4gPHBhdWwuaG9mZm1hbkB2 cG5jLm9yZz4gd3JvdGU6DQo+ID4+DQo+ID4+IEV2ZXJ5b25lIHdpdGggdG9vbHMgdGhhdCBnZW5l cmF0ZXMgVVJMcyB0byB0aGVtLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gQ29vbCBVUklzIGFyZSBzdGFibGUgWzFdLg0K PiA+IFRob3NlIFVSSXMgYXJlIG5vdCBnb2luZyBhd2F5Lg0KPiA+IEdvb2dsZSBzdGlsbCBwcmlv cml0aXplcyB0aGVtLg0KPiA+IFRob3VzYW5kcyBvZiBSRkMsIEktRHMsIHBhcGVycywgYXJ0aWNs ZXMsIGJsb2cgZW50cmllcyByZWZlcmVuY2UgdGhlbS4NCj4gPiAoQW5kIHRoZSBhYm92ZSB0b29s cyBzdGlsbCBnZW5lcmF0ZSB0aGVtLikNCj4gPg0KPiA+IEkgZ2VudWluZWx5IGhhdGUgdG8gc2F5 IHRoaXMsIGJ1dCBhdCBzb21lIHBvaW50IHdl4oCZbGwgbmVlZCB0byBmaW5kIGEgd2F5DQo+IHRv IHRha2UgY29udHJvbCBvZiB3aGF0IGlzIGJlaGluZCB0aGVzZSBVUklzLg0KPiA+IC4uLg0KPg0K PiBUcnVlLiBNYXliZSBqdXN0IHJlZGlyZWN0Pw0KPg0KPiBCZXN0IHJlZ2FyZHMsIEp1bGlhbg0K Pg0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXw0KPiBUb29scy1kaXNjdXNzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCAtIFRvb2xzLWRpc2N1c3NAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCj4gVGhpcyBsaXN0IGlzIGZvciBkaXNjdXNzaW9uLCBub3QgZm9yIGFjdGlvbiByZXF1 ZXN0cyBvciBidWcgcmVwb3J0cy4NCj4gKiBSZXBvcnQgZGF0YXRyYWNrZXIgYW5kIG1haWxhcmNo aXZlIGJ1Z3MgdG86IGRhdGF0cmFja2VyLXByb2plY3RAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gKiBSZXBvcnQgdG9v bHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcgYnVncyB0bzogd2VibWFzdGVyQHRvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnDQo+ICogUmVwb3J0 IGFsbCBvdGhlciBidWdzIG9yIGlzc3VlcyB0bzogaWV0Zi1hY3Rpb25AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gTGlz dCBpbmZvIChpbmNsdWRpbmcgaG93IHRvIFVuc3Vic2NyaWJlKToNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby90b29scy1kaXNjdXNzDQo+DQo= --0000000000008e5f4405bf2a8b19 Content-Type: text/html; 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Sun, 04 Apr 2021 13:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l3sm12983540pju.44.2021.04.04.13.39.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 13:39:06 -0700 (PDT) To: Paul Hoffman , Julian Reschke Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <75441513-8DBB-4A0E-A943-E0CF22CDCD16@tzi.org> <7f98e83b-505e-325d-6795-8fff85517112@gmx.de> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 08:39:02 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 20:39:13 -0000 On 05-Apr-21 06:36, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 4 Apr 2021, at 10:55, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 >> Am 04.04.2021 um 18:19 schrieb Carsten Bormann: >>> On 2021-04-04, at 18:14, Paul Hoffman wrote: >>>> >>>> Everyone with tools that generates URLs to them. >>> >>> Cool URIs are stable [1]. >>> Those URIs are not going away. >>> Google still prioritizes them. >>> Thousands of RFC, I-Ds, papers, articles, blog entries reference=20 >>> them. >>> (And the above tools still generate them.) >>> >>> I genuinely hate to say this, but at some point we=E2=80=99ll need to= find=20 >>> a way to take control of what is behind these URIs. >>> ... >> >> True. Maybe just redirect? >=20 > That would be the easiest solution to implement and, at the same time, = > the most flexible for the future. My understanding from a recent message from Robert Sparks is that this is already the plan. By the way, I apologise that my original reply to Paul could be read as dismissive. That wasn't at all my intention. Brian From nobody Sun Apr 4 14:06:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F473A1A72 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 14:06:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JHM4tE4Li5V for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 14:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from beige.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (beige.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80CEB3A1A71 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 14:06:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8180A7809EC; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 21:06:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-18-61.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.18.61]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2FCB4780C82; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 21:06:36 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.18.61 (trex/6.1.1); Sun, 04 Apr 2021 21:06:36 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Arithmetic-Quick: 5d6c08716065d83d_1617570396296_2723718699 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1617570396296:1703412211 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1617570396295 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB2C187AC6; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 21:06:35 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=ufjkPPTUcNODvN TIWCxuvUL2XMc=; b=YW54yP1Zji9uSRO9ovXabvDh2SDPkuomYN/w/uIgV0XzrQ 2iOc5Xqb1XudObs480YmrqtuHPHt+GSvHbsh8GvLWCzzbER71vkMBLLtW4WuiX01 Z3ms/0YhYYouCleVVAVEjMhje3jjoGGfjzKMItS5cpaKijsIHl5/Xf0hYeTuo= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20B8E85DB1; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 21:06:33 +0000 (UTC) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2021 16:06:29 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a70 From: Nico Williams To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Paul Hoffman , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 21:06:42 -0000 On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 03:41:21PM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I mean, who cares about the htmlized versions of HTML RFCs? I do. I like them better. From nobody Sun Apr 4 15:15:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3353A1C9F for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 15:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zieeICtMP0aw for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 15:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21C7A3A1C9E for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 15:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67BC38C54 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id uQUXxO3ogMsD for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0BA38C53 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F8294B for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2021 18:15:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <75441513-8DBB-4A0E-A943-E0CF22CDCD16@tzi.org> <7f98e83b-505e-325d-6795-8fff85517112@gmx.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 22:15:48 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Hoffman wrote: >> Am 04.04.2021 um 18:19 schrieb Carsten Bormann: >>> On 2021-04-04, at 18:14, Paul Hoffman wrote: >>>> >>>> Everyone with tools that generates URLs to them. >>> >>> Cool URIs are stable [1]. Those URIs are not going away. Google >>> still prioritizes them. Thousands of RFC, I-Ds, papers, articles, >>> blog entries reference them. (And the above tools still generate >>> them.) >>> >>> I genuinely hate to say this, but at some point we=E2=80=99ll need = to find a >>> way to take control of what is behind these URIs. ... >> >> True. Maybe just redirect? > That would be the easiest solution to implement and, at the same time, > the most flexible for the future. I wonder if putting a robots.txt on tools.ietf.org would also be helpful to direct search engines away from it. =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmBqOosACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUwPwgAlrZpbKrB8zSbmL4phiHPsPXBHGLZugk9NbcfJ+J0x5usROb47e+EeTKf xQgJP6SkptfC6OjOcDAMRM3PnbbQ9f8pQ6S3z9i7jgpX8p0B2sqhKYW4owtEN0r4 6X3deQuU2KDshZwZ6K8zfLQgS+csSsWMFwo+9jFk8qmQrs+3O2h5wgOIGWv5FVlO aWej69Ma398WYfm22FXwGSedP5KjwGgrOWfjFDeL5gvhb1LaAt+m39lEtnFB92qK rheT62Fz3VEmEigF4SlnY4/8K17BzoqhSSoLdJAyckLeoBuTC/uLogFvcEEHAqNB I7pFhamuwfdYIVqlcs85QiaZXdYBLw== =4vf6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Apr 4 16:02:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9B963A1E03 for ; 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charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7972.1617574539@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2021 23:02:34 -0000 On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 06:15:39PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > I wonder if putting a robots.txt on tools.ietf.org would also be helpful to > direct search engines away from it. It would, but it wouldn't guarantee good results. 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Mon, 5 Apr 2021 11:53:10 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.53]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 37q2u5m2v8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 05 Apr 2021 11:53:09 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 11:53:09 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.012; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 11:53:09 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Nico Williams , Brian E Carpenter CC: Paul Hoffman , tools-discuss Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs Thread-Index: AQHXKPl+H4jqWxyKaU2hL1lqWCtlBqqj+dyAgAEkAoCAAPe5gA== Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 15:53:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.47.21031401 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.18) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint1 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 15:53:22 -0000 ICAgIE9uIFN1biwgQXByIDA0LCAyMDIxIGF0IDAzOjQxOjIxUE0gKzEyMDAsIEJyaWFuIEUgQ2Fy cGVudGVyIHdyb3RlOg0KICAgID4gSSBtZWFuLCB3aG8gY2FyZXMgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVk IHZlcnNpb25zIG9mIEhUTUwgUkZDcz8NCg0KSSBhbHNvIGxpa2UgdGhlbSBiZXR0ZXIuICBJIGNh biBhbHNvIHJlYWQgdGhlbSBvbiBhbnkgZGV2aWNlICh5ZWFoLCByZXNwb25zaXZlIGRlc2lnbiku DQoNCklmIHdlJ3JlIHdyaXRpbmcgZm9yIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCwgdGV4dC9odG1sIGlzIHdheSBt b3JlIGltcG9ydGFudCBhbmQgdXNlZnVsIHRoYW4gdGV4dC9wbGFpbi4NCg0K From nobody Mon Apr 5 12:24:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A41C3A247B for ; 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a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=kmcir/+qTXKC6+ PFiHhCOEs33yw=; b=QQnH0Wcq+SzfZ16hly0MulQC3/2qPDxKwxglH0VCIv5wId xj/Qk29Xc4YBXSlbP5Q4x9McxJxQdCvNi9GP2QKuaDi0rVgn3iQhGwZ5yUOxKdvk YqVhWlv6/VpbBFXO8tC2W75OvpoPoS80zAbt91YO5N93ZB2fcb4baLfiJsxis= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6589385DB1; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:24:18 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 14:24:16 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a70 From: Nico Williams To: "Salz, Rich" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Paul Hoffman , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210405192415.GI3828@localhost> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 19:24:27 -0000 On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 03:53:08PM +0000, Salz, Rich wrote: > On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 03:41:21PM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I mean, who cares about the htmlized versions of HTML RFCs? > > I also like them better. I can also read them on any device (yeah, > responsive design). But I mean specifically the htmlized versions versus HTML produced by xml2rfc or any XSLT conversion. I like the pagination (yes, yes, I know, we as a community want to stop paginating). I like the way footers and headers are rendered. I like the metadata header at the top with the version history, alternative formats links, and datatracker/nits/IPR/diffs links. I accept that we'll eventually lose the pagination, but a) the tools.ietf.org URIs are kinda useful now just because they are so recognized, b) we should really not lose the metadata header. > If we're writing for the Internet, text/html is way more important and > useful than text/plain. I read these things in $PAGER as much as in $BROWSER. I don't mind the text. I just don't want to lose all the value provided by the htmlize tool right now. From nobody Mon Apr 5 12:29:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7F143A249E for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 12:29:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.81 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT=1.999, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL=1.31, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gOdwI6VIh6SR for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 12:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 931213A249D for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 12:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.51] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 135JTiV3024878 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 12:29:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.51] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: tools-discuss Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 12:29:08 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: <400FC537-1BA4-4AEF-A493-23DF0D34B9A5@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: <20210405192415.GI3828@localhost> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> <20210405192415.GI3828@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 19:29:13 -0000 PLEASE, PEOPLE! Every mail thread that involves RFCs does not have to turn into "text versus HTML" or "paginated versus unpaginated". I sincerely believe everything that can be said about those topics has already been said and heard by whomever is going to update the v3 specification. Don't make me create an update to Godwin's Law about this. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Mon Apr 5 12:33:42 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45D23A24BC for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 12:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4nsJ1BMFipI for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 12:33:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 621C93A24B9 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 12:33:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330107819E3; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:33:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-17-139.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.17.139]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E6AEF7811ED; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:33:34 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.17.139 (trex/6.1.1); Mon, 05 Apr 2021 19:33:35 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Fumbling-Vacuous: 051291b83478b718_1617651215008_4192241190 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1617651215008:2835651626 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1617651215008 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B3387B30; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:33:34 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=K3afjTZcXFQhzt JQOvIAFlobhX0=; b=kk2bjmTmojsEc8IJ01Z4bOywuXxWXndtL9SVMxdbnCoBDP niO1SVtSSstdbyVp6M0gFP+RP6x3Mf/8NeLKlitcVvXY2ZiZoPxyO+TDY6zI9JqX vShPhZz5Mc7lbWeBmdxHji1gpCmK3ywRLWNxnoW37iGvo9Sfxqs7P7kWnfglY= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EC20587B2C; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:33:30 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 14:33:28 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a70 From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Cc: tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210405193327.GJ3828@localhost> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> <20210405192415.GI3828@localhost> <400FC537-1BA4-4AEF-A493-23DF0D34B9A5@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <400FC537-1BA4-4AEF-A493-23DF0D34B9A5@vpnc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 19:33:41 -0000 On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 12:29:08PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: > [...] Yes, but please please lets not lose the metadata at the top. It is much too useful. From nobody Mon Apr 5 13:21:22 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037CA3A264C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 13:21:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id upQ4Fww0iGpV for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 13:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com (mail-pj1-x1029.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CA893A264B for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 13:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id bg21so3605072pjb.0 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2021 13:21:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=N47PZoKkXe5iCSpXbmPHDmVL82/+0y1ioVt6QJvkQ8I=; b=CJSunVNJhsBNvaFKTJ8PDZWr/Swfw2gGhk1A4ZGgof/WQYFL6UTmOZhd/5pt1V2u8D 5DMwhpiRItuMJignGPhSZgVfsmYcpwmxVo/MO9r9hFnIG0oqE+XM4Kcst0nz3HUmWDk+ 6Qx0PUSChnhEbLVuw6TZXx1lIiJax62FOwicFNIcd6Ov3SDoRsCBaZyaRU5u9Q+8w4WN yGuXoP6zEO6RhJh0Y/APeufV3ZMFYJ0pcmTNhRM6+4g9+ZGsHnSZ5v/8zGc5Wqm51V4l mFckfd5ZwEuhshYY9hwyYEgjUVPds27jbAUr4w2VjjYDL3/EctRoaR0CTA6VYlGbECSZ 36NA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=N47PZoKkXe5iCSpXbmPHDmVL82/+0y1ioVt6QJvkQ8I=; b=KEwaBaGNc+Xj9ueGhVL2LYmNUcOqVDOoB5rrjZZ7Qkkfy/dhwCsSGvTaeU1Nhg1cnX BgDBJkiub17U28cw3O8ch9rifBO/1LtwBVUyUwKhgS4Y6OlMOqD5qYXvlZ7qzY+6PJIQ 3IuI1xpGQz0Y6iEPV9VxBQnG1XB+EemkMd52vBgrBla71zvnaiDRRNink/8y6AjT8f4z TLhGkA9p5G803GlEfB/lpGc/UWc93RxixTUt+UW6MzAvgsW6vtMiQuLtwve/5PWqdEQu YC6r4S7RMzYiEeqfXZoLJoXMTjcTAWi94KxPHoVeoL7gX2geyO8/LgoO+fHYotGG2+F6 6Z3Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532qFMP/OABHT360ogRP5W6NbABfOpvbwgZtHFVKEzXoEaThEHGr 90+9D8zui2nvMFly9RVooU6SIWfTfQ3hNw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyv6E6HB1ZZETnGZiWX34u1eIaQi0xIYveIrYHIsUNwzuiwydnvVnutsJdUBNvDJaKFSvypYA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:2309:b029:e7:1063:e6aa with SMTP id d9-20020a1709032309b02900e71063e6aamr25795219plh.52.1617654073632; Mon, 05 Apr 2021 13:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t16sm16869405pfc.204.2021.04.05.13.21.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 05 Apr 2021 13:21:13 -0700 (PDT) To: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman Cc: tools-discuss References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> <20210405192415.GI3828@localhost> <400FC537-1BA4-4AEF-A493-23DF0D34B9A5@vpnc.org> <20210405193327.GJ3828@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 08:21:10 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210405193327.GJ3828@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 20:21:21 -0000 On 06-Apr-21 07:33, Nico Williams wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 12:29:08PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> [...] > > Yes, but please please lets not lose the metadata at the top. It is > much too useful. It's not lost, e.g.: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-api-10 Brian From nobody Mon Apr 5 13:22:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3DA3A2657 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 13:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jl7580N7aPgD for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 13:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x731.google.com (mail-qk1-x731.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::731]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AE6D3A2656 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 13:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x731.google.com with SMTP id o5so12855233qkb.0 for ; Mon, 05 Apr 2021 13:22:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zbcl07VsX69Gvsmz8UCgF7RXdV+MoPo0yYulez8TDJI=; b=t/gzRc92YpoHvmHwo2AWxvpR5FaLyPvHklQWKRfVsAlxo/146HqtYlq1gUTTMoTG/1 ay6If2V20P3kMKJqFwxvS3h+aZ+7onzKx7lYuwHb/09B/YzUMh6I6GcHPBMZGgXIiPQw W/59sl3v5IxFjSZP67VHwkfRTLMrDH4dwtP9beVqejmklcNYNmfEVc9d94LzeshD8M59 nBylqg/kfS/OqnPW/MtneRJFxk2BBqy6DiLuIZd9iVcqec5exZB4jDtNcw03TpI+Jb8t 2sCL9jA1TVMCir0eTY+H3bh/LpH9ca1+Br/LcP+y8+SQdoONcJpwFA+1xaH7RYhviUXN lcuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zbcl07VsX69Gvsmz8UCgF7RXdV+MoPo0yYulez8TDJI=; b=nmIIcN1dC1gQfai0rG1zf08h4FUCRYcqZWCENcdja4c3WnOEEzr7kCpmN3g3z4yuXG 9qDuHmFvP9XtwVRWuuitzJUxBDShkTNgN2k7sNS5OL705T7QmNwg83GGdxszHQ6Vt6HW rsURyPVgZSTqlNYfBCnWF4A9kDmOaErzZEUV0JYU6t9RSrkUONlq7kEI28FOfmCYW9WG DGT4I33vVgSFE0ghAlIS/cXpn0ruIqXOMFvsExhYvqjwzcKjJIrbM2z6g1JqgkRqZBFv sGNYhjrjdTo9+LtGEcqFc0oB3qNLG4GYU3LQRazOJ81KPRCtaS+T0xKzckB7B5WUfu3y GhRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530gLnA5ZcW4QJDAdSjPj+JHVULJNnVwAmAN9lM996VmKOmcUNjU ij9Y30KYPSQ/JFlu+ejhl1uaZQqIPqT+91pNQI2cSuEQ19SvTA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwib36WdxoWlQF374iErEOSbvMAc821nq9/6JF5Q9qnugFUzstGXSruvyV6Tos01WL4xsLBOuYb4AhoSKKqhwA= X-Received: by 2002:a37:886:: with SMTP id 128mr27289868qki.430.1617654156813; Mon, 05 Apr 2021 13:22:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> <20210405192415.GI3828@localhost> <400FC537-1BA4-4AEF-A493-23DF0D34B9A5@vpnc.org> <20210405193327.GJ3828@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20210405193327.GJ3828@localhost> From: "Andrew G. Malis" Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 16:22:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Cc: Paul Hoffman , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000062e8ca05bf3f756b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 20:22:43 -0000 --00000000000062e8ca05bf3f756b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Nico, The tools functionality has been replicated in the datatracker. See, for example. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-08 . Cheers, Andy On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 3:33 PM Nico Williams wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 12:29:08PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > [...] > > Yes, but please please lets not lose the metadata at the top. It is > much too useful. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --00000000000062e8ca05bf3f756b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nico,

The tools functionality=C2=A0has = been replicated=C2=A0in the datatracker.


Cheers,
Andy
<= br>

On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 3:33 PM Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 12:29:= 08PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> [...]

Yes, but please please lets not lose the metadata at the top.=C2=A0 It is much too useful.

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--00000000000062e8ca05bf3f756b-- From nobody Mon Apr 5 14:57:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600D53A29A3 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 14:57:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.281 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.281 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fsVLr1KxRpLT for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 14:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71FBD3A299B for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 14:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.1.92]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 135LvdDR073734 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 5 Apr 2021 16:57:40 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1617659861; bh=FT3hB6p5qCjilMTq1WgEh6Uito7GE+/TIhdsbAqmsVc=; h=To:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To; b=BFLvrlGsqBCLzD9f+M32Q4YAIRXty7UNxq1hrCcpcLlruIWO5Vs6qlE1zpijcv1NC Uo2+VskE+zG9Ull8rKMYA7kf9/xax9IAwley7HmC0blrSWMpKA0p1Hkz6lXgEpe0mQ ML5BuOB74v89cv4ryx66SlqHvRDjdg08irmEPn9I= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.1.92] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: Brian E Carpenter , Paul Hoffman , tools-discuss References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: <9e9c8c7e-c6f2-bd59-4f8b-2e009b50447b@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 16:57:34 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 21:57:50 -0000 Replying to this, even though the thread has mostly moved on, to point=20 at a detail that we need to remember. On 4/3/21 10:41 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Paul, > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9007 is OK. And the tools repo= sitory is going away anyway. Maybe the Twitterland needs to be told. > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9007.html is even more OK. I mean, wh= o cares about the htmlized versions of HTML RFCs? Other systems (software, SDOs) need to be able to point at the=20 appropriate thing for both old and new RFCs. There's been a strong=20 preference in the past to point to the HTMLized versions for many reasons= =2E For pre-v3 era RFCs, the htmlized versions is what we have - we do not=20 have the xml2rfc v3 html output, and it is not currently on any plan to=20 try to retroactively create any such thing. Asking software and other SDOs to learn to use two different URL=20 patterns (one before and one after the v3 switch) is not likely to be hea= rd. RjS > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 04-Apr-21 14:23, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc9007 >> >> (Hat tip to https://twitter.com/elithebearded/status/13785203792290447= 36 >> for pointing it out, and the @FakeUnicode Twitter user for reposting.)= >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf= =2Eorg >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/tools-discuss >> > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.= org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Mon Apr 5 15:04:48 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F033A29D4 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 15:04:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OIANk0HdF0Eu for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 15:04:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 80AA23A29D1 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2021 15:04:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E78C09E9-8CFF-4616-ABDD-9A3C579CD46B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 10:04:38 +1200 References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> <20210405192415.GI3828@localhost> <400FC537-1BA4-4AEF-A493-23DF0D34B9A5@vpnc.org> <20210405193327.GJ3828@localhost> To: tools-discuss In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2021 22:04:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E78C09E9-8CFF-4616-ABDD-9A3C579CD46B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Just a reminder to all - there is a detailed RFC and I-D publication = feature matrix = https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ljj4QV6YmvQo4F8MtydZH9owvwH-dMOJcw= Saz5CW4E0/edit?usp=3Dsharing Jay > On 6/04/2021, at 8:22 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >=20 > Nico, >=20 > The tools functionality has been replicated in the datatracker. >=20 > See, for example. = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang-08 = . >=20 > Cheers, > Andy >=20 >=20 > On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 3:33 PM Nico Williams > wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 12:29:08PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > [...] >=20 > Yes, but please please lets not lose the metadata at the top. It is > much too useful. >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: = webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_E78C09E9-8CFF-4616-ABDD-9A3C579CD46B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Just = a reminder to all - there is a detailed RFC and I-D publication feature = matrix

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ljj4QV6YmvQo4F8MtydZH9o= wvwH-dMOJcwSaz5CW4E0/edit?usp=3Dsharing

Jay

On = 6/04/2021, at 8:22 AM, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis@gmail.com> = wrote:

Nico,

The tools functionality has been replicated in the = datatracker.

See, for example. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-mldp-yang= -08 .

Cheers,
Andy


On Mon, Apr 5, 2021 at 3:33 PM Nico = Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 12:29:08PM = -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote:
> [...]

Yes, but please please lets not lose the metadata at the top.  It = is
much too useful.

___________________________________________________________
= Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
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___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for = discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* = Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other = bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
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-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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And the tools repository is going away anyway. Maybe the Twitterland needs to be told. >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9007.html is even more OK. I mean, who cares about the htmlized versions of HTML RFCs? > > Other systems (software, SDOs) need to be able to point at the > appropriate thing for both old and new RFCs. There's been a strong > preference in the past to point to the HTMLized versions for many reasons. > > For pre-v3 era RFCs, the htmlized versions is what we have - we do not > have the xml2rfc v3 html output, and it is not currently on any plan to > try to retroactively create any such thing. > > Asking software and other SDOs to learn to use two different URL > patterns (one before and one after the v3 switch) is not likely to be heard. Indeed. I believe the RFC Editor would prefer us to use their landing pages like https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9007 or https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1, but I'm not sure that will catch on. Brian > RjS > > >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> On 04-Apr-21 14:23, Paul Hoffman wrote: >>> See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc9007 >>> >>> (Hat tip to https://twitter.com/elithebearded/status/1378520379229044736 >>> for pointing it out, and the @FakeUnicode Twitter user for reposting.) >>> >>> ___________________________________________________________ >>> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >>> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >>> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >>> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >>> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >>> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss >>> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > From nobody Mon Apr 5 19:34:23 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756083A0813 for ; 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a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=vU6RcBtW8mhTWt mvgE/8xJtWiCE=; b=UdD4nx20WmIomCfJ2G81r/YbJiK0QTJL7keMDvxegLrHdS p4Hk5k20T+wO2ExVpwBrvJCVgYKKq0VXzCNKrrxwbTiVkLN1t7bhcJ5/uPmAnLUg +Fm5fxFlSeueLce2G4oVuW1oIzP7fjTKlts1WIaRRWO9rCV6U6XvBK+ZnmtmI= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a92.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E25888409; Tue, 6 Apr 2021 02:34:12 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 21:34:09 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a92 From: Nico Williams To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Paul Hoffman , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210406023409.GP3828@localhost> References: <3C729A10-5F70-465F-AD97-0A1338836C82@vpnc.org> <4790f6a6-5893-e8e6-7361-74657a6735d7@gmail.com> <20210404210629.GE3828@localhost> <20210405192415.GI3828@localhost> <400FC537-1BA4-4AEF-A493-23DF0D34B9A5@vpnc.org> <20210405193327.GJ3828@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 02:34:21 -0000 On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 08:21:10AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 06-Apr-21 07:33, Nico Williams wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 12:29:08PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> [...] > > > > Yes, but please please lets not lose the metadata at the top. It is > > much too useful. > > It's not lost, e.g.: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-anima-grasp-api-10 I should have completed my thought: don't lose ... when you switch to non-paginated HTML rendering. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR02MB6924.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f4bcbfbf-3a23-4836-32e4-08d8f917adb0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Apr 2021 16:18:56.5140 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 73yPi4kBzQPAB3Ti7u1EtizimG3j/PurmvhyowVMUOotFKQ3ePg5xEcV5lfr1MBk X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR02MB6716 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 6C1A0CD904C2E867A60B348D27262017ABFDD5FCFD2DB455ACA5628811690CE42 X-Proofpoint-GUID: E0_FZeQJ1Fyeob6AVP57SU_7Hw_ssdV2 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: E0_FZeQJ1Fyeob6AVP57SU_7Hw_ssdV2 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.369, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-06_04:2021-04-06, 2021-04-06 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=667 lowpriorityscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104030000 definitions=main-2104060108 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Unicode decode error for RFCs X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2021 16:19:20 -0000 > On 06-Apr-21 09:57, Robert Sparks wrote: > > Replying to this, even though the thread has mostly moved on, to point > > at a detail that we need to remember. > > > > On 4/3/21 10:41 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> Paul, > >> > >> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc9007 is OK. And the tools repos= itory is going away anyway. Maybe the > Twitterland needs to be told. > >> > >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9007.html is even more OK. I mean, w= ho cares about the > htmlized versions of HTML RFCs? > > > > Other systems (software, SDOs) need to be able to point at the > > appropriate thing for both old and new RFCs. There's been a strong > > preference in the past to point to the HTMLized versions for many reaso= ns. > > > > For pre-v3 era RFCs, the htmlized versions is what we have - we do not > > have the xml2rfc v3 html output, and it is not currently on any plan to > > try to retroactively create any such thing. > > > > Asking software and other SDOs to learn to use two different URL > > patterns (one before and one after the v3 switch) is not likely to be h= eard. >=20 > Indeed. I believe the RFC Editor would prefer us to use their landing pag= es like > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9007 or https://www.rfc-editor.org/inf= o/rfc1 , > but I'm not sure that will catch on. As someone who has perpetrated numerous egregious xrefs to RFCs using the t= ools=20 url (mostly from BBF docs), I have a few comments. - This conversation has been very educational. Thx. - I did point to the tools html version because it was historically by far= the most readable on-line rendition - I now recognize the error of my ways. What I find at "https://www.rfc-ed= itor.org/info/rfc" does look like what I should be using. I also see the "Cite" links there ar= e very helpful, and both point to this rfc-editor.org/info url. That's good and makes it a useful pe= rmalink for citations. - The fact that I have to click once more (from the info page) to get an a= ctual rendering of the RFC is ameliorated by the fact I have a choice of renderings. So that's ok. And= I really like the new rfc-editor html rendering with pinned ToC on the right. That's much better than the to= ols rendering. - I'll be using the rfc-editor info link from here on out and will work to= change existing docs when the opportunity arise. I shall be evangelizing this wherever I go. - The datatracker bibtex data provides an url of rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc900= 6.txt (note the ".txt" at the end). This is a much less useful url than the info url. Any chance of getting tha= t changed? Thx, Barbara From nobody Thu Apr 8 15:25:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74FA3A1F5E for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 15:25:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bIpqWW1b7pqd for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 15:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A10FD3A1F5B for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 15:25:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_92AE33E3-EA19-47C0-8885-C48EE9691B58" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 10:25:06 +1200 References: To: Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Gathering requirements for a new wiki X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 22:25:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_92AE33E3-EA19-47C0-8885-C48EE9691B58 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Just a reminder about this before we move to assess and recommend a new = wiki platform based on the proposed features below. Jay > On 31/03/2021, at 2:06 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m helping out the Tools Team PM (Robert) with the migration = of functionality from tools.ietf.org and one area that needs addressing = is wikis. We currently use Trac to provide wikis though Trac itself has = a broader applicability for software project management. The = Secretariat maintains a Trac installation at https://trac.ietf.org with = separate instances for each current Working Group (WG), Directorate, = Team, and most concluded WGs. Some of the wiki instances only point to = other resources, others are reasonably detailed, while the majority = appear to be unused or broken (cannot be started).=20 >=20 > The full usage stats are: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Total 364 > =E2=80=A2 Unused 157 > =E2=80=A2 Broken 28 > =E2=80=A2 In use - wiki 140 > =E2=80=A2 In use - issues 39 >=20 >=20 > We are proposing to replace Trac with a new wiki product and instead = of having multiple public instances, have a single community wiki, with = the existing pages copied over. This will be a true community wiki with = any member of the community able to add/change pages and reorganise as = needed, moderated by other members of the community and the secretariat, = and provided they have a datatracker login to authenticate with. = Private pages will be allowed, but their creation controlled by the = admins. >=20 > In multiple small discussions with the community, the following = requirements have emerged for new wiki software: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Strategic >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must be available at reasonable cost (to the IETF LLC) = for possibly thousands of users. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must be widely used, well documented, actively = developed and actively supported to ensure that we do not end up with a = dead-end product. This includes any required plugins. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must be a specific wiki product and not a larger = product that includes a wiki as one part of its functionality, to = prevent complications and overlaps with other tools. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must be scalable to support tens of thousands of users = to support the full IETF community and reasonable future growth. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Content >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support a text based input language. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support code snippets, maths expressions and = diagrams to enable the full representation of the same kind of content = as found in I-Ds and RFCs. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must provide an excellent mobile experience. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must provide content backup, change visibility, and = the ability to revert changes >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should support Markdown by default for page content. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should support git for content backup and change = visibility. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should provide a WYSIWYG editor for Markdown that can = be used interchangeably with direct Markdown editing. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should have a themable interface to enable the wiki to = be given a look and feel consistent with www.ietf.org. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Integration >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support OIDC for authentication and role = permissions. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support custom module development. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should support Matomo for web analytics so that these = can be integrated with our website statistics. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Local management (if self-hosted) >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support either MySql/MariaDB or PostgreSQL as = those are the database products supported by the IT operations team. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must run on Linux and should run in a Docker container = to fit with the management processes of the IT operations team. >=20 >=20 > We would like your views on these requirements so that we can move to = assessing products. >=20 >=20 > thanks > Jay >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_92AE33E3-EA19-47C0-8885-C48EE9691B58 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Just = a reminder about this before we move to assess and recommend a new wiki = platform based on the proposed features below.

Jay

On = 31/03/2021, at 2:06 PM, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

I=E2=80= =99m helping out the Tools Team PM (Robert) with the migration of = functionality from tools.ietf.org and one area that needs addressing is = wikis.  We currently use Trac to provide wikis though Trac itself = has a broader applicability for software project management.  The = Secretariat maintains a Trac installation at https://trac.ietf.org with = separate instances for each current Working Group (WG), Directorate, = Team, and most concluded WGs.  Some of the wiki instances only = point to other resources, others are reasonably detailed, while the = majority appear to be unused or broken (cannot be started).

The full usage stats are:

= =E2=80=A2 Total 364
=E2=80=A2 = Unused = = = 157
=E2=80=A2 Broken 28
= =E2=80=A2 In use - wiki 140
=E2=80=A2 = In use - issues = 39


We are proposing = to replace Trac with a new wiki product and instead of having multiple = public instances, have a single community wiki, with the existing pages = copied over.  This will be a true community wiki with any member of = the community able to add/change pages and reorganise as needed, = moderated by other members of the community and the secretariat, and = provided they have a datatracker login to authenticate with. =  Private pages will be allowed, but their creation controlled by = the admins.

In multiple small discussions = with the community, the following requirements have emerged for new wiki = software:

=E2=80=A2 Strategic

=E2=80=A2 Must be available at = reasonable cost (to the IETF LLC) for possibly thousands of users.

=E2=80=A2 Must be widely used, = well documented, actively developed and actively supported to ensure = that we do not end up with a dead-end product.  This includes any = required plugins.

=E2=80=A2 = Must be a specific wiki product and not a larger product that includes a = wiki as one part of its functionality, to prevent complications and = overlaps with other tools.

=E2=80=A2 = Must be scalable to support tens of thousands of users to support the = full IETF community and reasonable future growth.

=E2=80=A2 Content

=E2=80=A2 = Must support a text based input language.

= =E2=80=A2 Must support code snippets, maths expressions and = diagrams to enable the full representation of the same kind of content = as found in I-Ds and RFCs.

=E2=80=A2 = Must provide an excellent mobile experience.

= =E2=80=A2 Must provide content backup, change visibility, and the = ability to revert changes

=E2=80=A2 = Should support Markdown by default for page content.

= =E2=80=A2 Should support git for content backup and change = visibility.

=E2=80=A2 Should provide a = WYSIWYG editor for Markdown that can be used interchangeably with direct = Markdown editing.

=E2=80=A2 = Should have a themable interface to enable the wiki to be given a look = and feel consistent with www.ietf.org.

=E2=80=A2 = Integration

=E2=80=A2 Must support OIDC for = authentication and role permissions.

=E2=80=A2 = Must support custom module development.

=E2=80=A2 = Should support Matomo for web analytics so that these can be integrated = with our website statistics.

=E2=80=A2 = Local management (if self-hosted)

=E2=80=A2 = Must support either MySql/MariaDB or PostgreSQL as those are the = database products supported by the IT operations team.

= =E2=80=A2 Must run on Linux and should run in a Docker container = to fit with the management processes of the IT operations team.


We would like your views on = these requirements so that we can move to assessing products.


thanks
Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug = reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs = to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or = issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how = to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_92AE33E3-EA19-47C0-8885-C48EE9691B58-- From nobody Thu Apr 8 16:11:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25A63A20EC for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 16:11:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raghavgururajan.name Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yDHuCT2NTQVF for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 16:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out1.migadu.com (out1.migadu.com [91.121.223.63]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 689B73A20E6 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2021 16:11:32 -0700 (PDT) To: tools-discuss@ietf.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raghavgururajan.name; s=key1; t=1617923485; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type; bh=NaUV/0tqPMlD+mP2TZRHZZSB/AQMJe//KQ2hBw+fp6c=; b=ZJSYN4600L9+0jdgVC23hhWtVOXwe1/pQKORtsPjlIz78qcI+QD4XVu2zaZj2lcAlFScxz XsTvVflyKOn9kFIN1FVbCZNmFdIUjOxaIdtcgPqs0pNvwM7OtZmsdSjDQpTa/0LHrIT4Fx JyFSP4bmdzDGrA9k4i4STw6mOhjuIFqGQscJjHIV6Yq6ivBPhX30xEaGrQKnBMz68ye7QZ aY00RzyHsHZ79qagPTCU3WBHemAUzJxyAngPEUO0Vy6Hn02li/6fnIW3IQD9A3mLfgKVSC Lx3w9riUQKe1LtYzJEmveylzKzDKEXxGQ8jKIhkZPJX7pqIc+/Zip2jT1t7bAw== X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. From: Raghav Gururajan Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 19:11:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="S93DONn5Jgsh4LSp0lmO7ZYF7pMHnoZ8o" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Migadu-Auth-User: rg@raghavgururajan.name Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Why IETF should keep XMPP as IM standard, instead of Matrix? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2021 23:11:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --S93DONn5Jgsh4LSp0lmO7ZYF7pMHnoZ8o Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="SmfEUM8Cskp2HKUt3VuBK9dL3yGULTLpx"; protected-headers="v1" From: Raghav Gururajan To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Message-ID: Subject: Why IETF should keep XMPP as IM standard, instead of Matrix? --SmfEUM8Cskp2HKUt3VuBK9dL3yGULTLpx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Folks! Here are my thoughts on why IETF should keep XMPP as IM standard,=20 instead of Matrix. [1] EVOLUTION AND NATURAL SELECTION: I was obsessed with this question for a long-time. Which is the best IM=20 protocol that exists today? When I asked this to my dear friend, whose work is related to=20 evolutionary biology, he replied "I have no ideas when it comes to=20 computers. But I know this. Anything in this world that has survived for = a long-time, had to be fit to withstand selective pressures. So look at=20 what existed for long time, that's probably has properties to adapt=20 well.". Holy hell! Being a biotechnologist, I had to slap myself for not = thinking this on my own. But what makes a protocol fit? For that I looked at biology first. For a being to evolve, the process=20 happens both forward and backward. That is, the being must pickup=20 (forward) a new feature that will make it fit or drop (backward) a=20 existing feature that is hindering it to be fit. Most importantly, the=20 being must have properties (information in genetic material) that gives=20 it these abilities (pickup or drop features), in the first place. Now, what properties might that be for protocols? Extensibility and Modularity. If a protocol is *both* extensible and=20 modular, it can pickup or drop a feature when needed (Well, protocol is=20 not sentient, developers are the ones who do things). These properties=20 (extensibility and modularity) must be *innate nature* (design model?)=20 of the protocol, so that it can evolve in response to selective=20 pressures. Here, selective pressures refers to needs of that protocol. Why both properties and not just any one of them? As mentioned earlier, evolution is both forward and backward. If a=20 protocol only is extensible, you cannot easily drop a extended feature,=20 if it becomes obsolete, security-critical or bloat. If a protocol is=20 only modular, you cannot easily extend a feature in demand. So a=20 protocol that is both extensible and modular, is fitter than, a protocol = that has only one of these properties. In other words, Extensibility and = Modularity are evolutionary properties of a protocol. By design, XMPP has these evolutionary properties, whereas Matrix does no= t. [2] IGNORANCE: Matrix seems to be started because of ignorance. Its stated in its=20 website, under "Imagine a world", the reasons why matrix was started=20 and/or aiming to achieve. Now, there was already XMPP, in which said=20 goals could have been achieved with either existing XEPs or creating new = XEPs. Instead, a new protocol was designed from scratch. I think this kind of trend "Protocol ABC doesn't have this XYZ feature,=20 so let me start a protocol from scratch" should be discouraged. It=20 causes even more fragmentation in IM realm. This is the very situation where matrix devs should have made use of the = properties of XMPP to improve it. Even the outstanding feature (I admit. = its a fantastic idea) of matrix, decentralized conversation store, could = have been implemented in XMPP as an XEP. Imagine the time and effort=20 spent on improving XMPP, instead of reinventing wheels in matrix. We=20 could have had a neat ubiquitous IM platform. [3] FLEXIBLE DEPLOYMENT: IM platforms should be able to be deployed as minimal as possible or as=20 feature as possible. Certain features should be able to be optionally=20 enabled or disabled, based on the needs of the deployer. For example, if an activist collective decides to provide IM service to=20 its members, but doesn't want to store any messages on server for=20 privacy purposes but to only queue the messages to deliver to clients=20 (like POP instead of IMAP), it can be done by dropping (backward=20 adaptation) the XEP responsible for archiving. Matrix cannot do this. [4] FINAL THOUGHTS: Please note that these are criticisms towards Matrix over XMPP, not=20 hate. I appreciate the work done by Matrix devs, especially on=20 decentralized conversation store. It is my current notion that, it will=20 be better for XMPP and Matrix devs to combine their efforts by improving = XMPP and bring matrix features to it via XEPs. XEP-Matrix? I request IETF to consider my above thoughts, while evaluating standards = for IM, as it is a matter of Internet's health. Regards, Raghav "RG" Gururajan. --SmfEUM8Cskp2HKUt3VuBK9dL3yGULTLpx-- --S93DONn5Jgsh4LSp0lmO7ZYF7pMHnoZ8o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wnsEABYIACMWIQTNLV6qqYzLN9qR1rBfWBZkf4vlUQUCYG+NmwUDAAAAAAAKCRBfWBZkf4vlUY3g AP9Gdil2CZaG7I2X7DWsNIBrnRozpLWtmL3MFf+YSIMnZwEAs24niTa/BOw6FmLcu2aNBIiCR6vI /5YBKeBLzn9m9QU= =23Db -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --S93DONn5Jgsh4LSp0lmO7ZYF7pMHnoZ8o-- From nobody Fri Apr 9 05:48:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D9BF3A161E; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 05:48:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.318 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.318 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URI_NOVOWEL=0.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gC49hhWWm5K9; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 05:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF4673A15FF; Fri, 9 Apr 2021 05:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. 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boundary="_000_DM6PR02MB692481B469F5523AA7ED1512C3739DM6PR02MB6924namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR02MB6924.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9478f953-4c13-4461-289d-08d8fb55c35d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Apr 2021 12:48:24.0413 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JeZHq3lVB7HvTtXM2MCawlVKcJNikkgFwfQ7USxn8DLlMN7c+zyoOTzzxNoub0Af X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR02MB5865 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 179F20ED108BC88809860F7DC4104717F6AE8B589E8C13AE2FA11750E7A609BA2 X-Proofpoint-GUID: -DQn6YdV9JlTAm_KDoOqIDzZjz_KSflh X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: -DQn6YdV9JlTAm_KDoOqIDzZjz_KSflh X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-09_05:2021-04-09, 2021-04-09 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 suspectscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 phishscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=999 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104090093 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Gathering requirements for a new wiki X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2021 12:48:36 -0000 --_000_DM6PR02MB692481B469F5523AA7ED1512C3739DM6PR02MB6924namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thx Jay. One additional requirement occurred to me. It's one I've seen supp= orted on all the platforms I'm familiar with, but it's probably best not to= assume... * Support for file attachments (via upload) on wiki pages Barbara Just a reminder about this before we move to assess and recommend a new wik= i platform based on the proposed features below. Jay On 31/03/2021, at 2:06 PM, Jay Daley > wr= ote: I'm helping out the Tools Team PM (Robert) with the migration of functional= ity from tools.ietf.org and= one area that needs addressing is wikis. We currently use Trac to provide= wikis though Trac itself has a broader applicability for software project = management. The Secretariat maintains a Trac installation at https://trac.= ietf.org with separate inst= ances for each current Working Group (WG), Directorate, Team, and most conc= luded WGs. Some of the wiki instances only point to other resources, other= s are reasonably detailed, while the majority appear to be unused or broken= (cannot be started). The full usage stats are: * Total 364 * Unused 157 * Broken 28 * In use - wiki 140 * In use - issues 39 We are proposing to replace Trac with a new wiki product and instead of hav= ing multiple public instances, have a single community wiki, with the exist= ing pages copied over. This will be a true community wiki with any member = of the community able to add/change pages and reorganise as needed, moderat= ed by other members of the community and the secretariat, and provided they= have a datatracker login to authenticate with. Private pages will be allo= wed, but their creation controlled by the admins. In multiple small discussions with the community, the following requirement= s have emerged for new wiki software: * Strategic * Must be available at reasonable cost (to the IETF LLC) for p= ossibly thousands of users. * Must be widely used, well documented, actively developed and= actively supported to ensure that we do not end up with a dead-end product= . This includes any required plugins. * Must be a specific wiki product and not a larger product tha= t includes a wiki as one part of its functionality, to prevent complication= s and overlaps with other tools. * Must be scalable to support tens of thousands of users to su= pport the full IETF community and reasonable future growth. * Content * Must support a text based input language. * Must support code snippets, maths expressions and diagrams t= o enable the full representation of the same kind of content as found in I-= Ds and RFCs. * Must provide an excellent mobile experience. * Must provide content backup, change visibility, and the abil= ity to revert changes * Should support Markdown by default for page content. * Should support git for content backup and change visibility. * Should provide a WYSIWYG editor for Markdown that can be use= d interchangeably with direct Markdown editing. * Should have a themable interface to enable the wiki to be gi= ven a look and feel consistent with www.ietf.org. * Integration * Must support OIDC for authentication and role permissions. * Must support custom module development. * Should support Matomo for web analytics so that these can be= integrated with our website statistics. * Local management (if self-hosted) * Must support either MySql/MariaDB or PostgreSQL as those are= the database products supported by the IT operations team. * Must run on Linux and should run in a Docker container to fi= t with the management processes of the IT operations team. We would like your views on these requirements so that we can move to asses= sing products. thanks Jay -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org ___________________________________________________________ Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org<= mailto:datatracker-project@ietf.org> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/tools-discuss -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --_000_DM6PR02MB692481B469F5523AA7ED1512C3739DM6PR02MB6924namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thx Jay. One additional re= quirement occurred to me. It’s one I’ve seen supported on all the platforms I’m familiar with, but it’s probably best= not to assume...

  • Support for file attachments (via upload) on wiki= pages

 

Barbara<= /font>

 

Just a r= eminder about this before we move to assess and recommend a new wiki platfo= rm based on the proposed features below.

&nb= sp;

Jay=



On 31/03= /2021, at 2:06 PM, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.o= rg> wrote:

&nb= sp;

I’= m helping out the Tools Team PM (Robert) with the migration of functionalit= y from tools.ietf.org and one area that needs addressing is wikis.  We cu= rrently use Trac to provide wikis though Trac itself has a broader applicab= ility for software project management.  The Secretariat maintains a Tr= ac installation at https://trac.ietf.org with separate instances for each current Working = Group (WG), Directorate, Team, and most concluded WGs.  Some of the wi= ki instances only point to other resources, others are reasonably detailed,= while the majority appear to be unused or broken (cannot be started).

The full usage stats are:

  =            = • Total            &n= bsp;            = ;       364
  =            = • Unused            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;     157
  =            = • Broken            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;      28
  =            = • In use - wiki           =          140
  =            = • In use - issues 39


We are proposing to replace Trac with a new wiki product and instead of hav= ing multiple public instances, have a single community wiki, with the exist= ing pages copied over.  This will be a true community wiki with any me= mber of the community able to add/change pages and reorganise as needed, moderated by other members of the communit= y and the secretariat, and provided they have a datatracker login to authen= ticate with.  Private pages will be allowed, but their creation contro= lled by the admins.

In multiple small discussions with the community, the following requirement= s have emerged for new wiki software:

• Strategic

  =            = • Must be available at reasonable cost (to the IETF LLC) for possibly= thousands of users.

  =            = • Must be widely used, well documented, actively developed and active= ly supported to ensure that we do not end up with a dead-end product.  = ;This includes any required plugins.

  =            = • Must be a specific wiki product and not a larger product that inclu= des a wiki as one part of its functionality, to prevent complications and o= verlaps with other tools.

  =            = • Must be scalable to support tens of thousands of users to support t= he full IETF community and reasonable future growth.

• Content

  =            = • Must support a text based input language.

  =            = • Must support code snippets, maths expressions and diagrams to enabl= e the full representation of the same kind of content as found in I-Ds and = RFCs.

  =            = • Must provide an excellent mobile experience.

  =            = • Must provide content backup, change visibility, and the ability to = revert changes

  =            = • Should support Markdown by default for page content.

  =            = • Should support git for content backup and change visibility.

  =            = • Should provide a WYSIWYG editor for Markdown that can be used inter= changeably with direct Markdown editing.

  =            = • Should have a themable interface to enable the wiki to be given a l= ook and feel consistent with www.ietf.org.

• Integration

  =            = • Must support OIDC for authentication and role permissions.

  =            = • Must support custom module development.

  =            = • Should support Matomo for web analytics so that these can be integr= ated with our website statistics.

• Local management (if self-hosted)

  =            = • Must support either MySql/MariaDB or PostgreSQL as those are the da= tabase products supported by the IT operations team.

  =            = • Must run on Linux and should run in a Docker container to fit with = the management processes of the IT operations team.


We would like your views on these requirements so that we can move to asses= sing products.


thanks
Jay

--
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tool= s-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

&nb= sp;

-- 
Jay Daley

IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

&nb= sp;

--_000_DM6PR02MB692481B469F5523AA7ED1512C3739DM6PR02MB6924namp_-- From nobody Sun Apr 11 13:11:07 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E6A3A1C3B for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:11:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfbQ12tvnRWL for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6676E3A1C3A for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E186838F13; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Js__Lrb1T_ZZ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ECB838F0E; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7CABCA; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 16:11:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: rfc-interest , tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 20:11:05 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If RFCs won't be paginated, how will I know approximately how long a docume= nt is? Our datatracker says the number of pages in the date column. kilo-word-count? =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmBzV9MACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWniQf/S0wV0osb/1W5UOkUO7D/+3SuMg/1YlqObq/vPWvNVswYoeC0n5LPp4RD U2T+6WIYfFFb35dOLTEs47EYj7Wr9lyZv8HDdCWftIgeX9lafqybnKxN3XzshML/ AH1ZYEtpJFtROvuC0meoEoHw57NR4RhSSXD7yT/vBzK3UbBMjpqL6rH4w0/CjF0d 19m2uSpHNGja8Ljvuy6VFHamtv2eCtN9/LKbAXiXUTWkkAP3o2EWg1mUsZQ64Nzx CSk5su1MaEC0Y0Y/wbcKzCWTIEicEW7Qdw4QVITcdlq7BwzMnJBBXtbLcasV9RVU K29P0JfLC8wCqruzCFyzCuXaik8afQ== =a6mU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sun Apr 11 13:13:11 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3683A1CC7 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:13:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hAUwgd9f5FVg for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 591043A1C71 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dc178.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.193.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FJNMv4HPJzydD; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 22:12:59 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20557.1618171860@localhost> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 22:12:59 +0200 Cc: rfc-interest , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 639864778.916352-0b8e2ae9b90a7e204d4724c60f987bc6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 20:13:11 -0000 On 2021-04-11, at 22:11, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part >=20 > If RFCs won't be paginated, how will I know approximately how long a = document is? Use the page count of the PDF then. (This is less stable over time, as the rendering may change, but = probably as useful as the existing page count.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sun Apr 11 13:50:16 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953A23A1DB2 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:50:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nKR_uOoHn-Lm for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com (mail-pj1-x102f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E35C33A1DAF for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id u11so1867405pjr.0 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:50:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OY1XIwgpZQ/oblg2r0XkFjrGg1UcgzcHy/uU5WD0tUY=; b=fr2XM5yE9tMEvJjWuYH/r/ICM0DeUUKxBLJdHREtQzG2n8f3nFyhFanPODYSuVTe2A qDZzhUvGHlV3yL/iBdQqLrdLy7H3VkXoqpyphxwQOPBmxhm3k3EsI4kNAz77/UyMsCUK IqPYJVz7a97hTeUoblP0haZMHMJKgOrq6ha8kY/oj5q3wfe6ytUHDIwJg88C1xjkEP3M HLS6PRTJq0Qrp8pNSJ2XOzP317AKkderGSrQOG/LslkM3bdELz5vRCDSH8hvFXyaJax1 qPqvqMTIZFoKxL4Kn/CQyPYSm/w7DY9oyZ5AgyX/7HDJZ+vDsg6jdQmA4X2+FvaNNPrl 3pJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OY1XIwgpZQ/oblg2r0XkFjrGg1UcgzcHy/uU5WD0tUY=; b=MGiJ77FC6a5NzC2Z3SBTN+n2jVCFnZsfgiX/eKaccxOPmjihdrEikyE+vif+Y2IiQS ooA5Ezk/sDn1tiPsehk4nsY52Wbyizo//8ab6fkJrDzHB9ZPfrOaX5hByb9XaiC8AMZJ aVEy4So6kZhfR7AdRHcw8Su3Rp3luTgBudV7txF8iImh/eUL6ma8sa5712kabWjN2i24 jN+QALjrcLsEui+IPjYdAvxZil34b/PAcEO5RMI186wlspgVZg5AJbMqgNm+EtTGkKgo 6FEk9vmpARuvV6nmkGaaaqFzstJUePRWlSrnSc22yOEFzDT3x2nMyWjwXZ9iwrjZgb3h ERJw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533ckbCDIpPdJCwlPWjPhN9Hf9SdR/tA62LdrRkV+wyR2IWAKDzN qNJSIR9xuiVU/7ldUJz6h0bCd0kuKMEoJw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwiPCp3h0FW7d24GjchxqikwOLLBywoD2/Op7dBQcVUz9GaiNEW9V3xMCyZmpoZSxWEPhHZZw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:378f:: with SMTP id mz15mr26371151pjb.70.1618174209636; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j3sm7950907pfi.74.2021.04.11.13.50.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 11 Apr 2021 13:50:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Carsten Bormann , Michael Richardson Cc: rfc-interest , tools-discuss References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 08:50:05 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 20:50:16 -0000 On 12-Apr-21 08:12, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-04-11, at 22:11, Michael Richardson wrote: >> >> Signed PGP part >> >> If RFCs won't be paginated, how will I know approximately how long a document is? > > Use the page count of the PDF then. > (This is less stable over time, as the rendering may change, but probably as useful as the existing page count.) Yes, my guess is that PDF will become the go-to version for people (such as lawyers and judges) who want page references for new-format RFCs. Brian From nobody Sun Apr 11 17:25:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F073A2550 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 17:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3EguMN4Oqqgf for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 17:25:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyan.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (cyan.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.47]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B75913A2557 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 17:25:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF6B361964; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 00:25:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-17-216.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.17.216]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3648536199A; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 00:25:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.17.216 (trex/6.1.1); Mon, 12 Apr 2021 00:25:31 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Reaction-Callous: 47d9702c1e120634_1618187131333_2840447314 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1618187131333:4011211777 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1618187131333 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9EB84C61; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 17:25:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=4skOPvdViVL/EH QPcHPXu0vIXmI=; b=p5PYSKtLLvxjFEqKgQmzSV82IfgQvwxFYWDHJIs1l/YbgS lnCy2kChrv+1iOC5/PGxRezkcBEFQDqUm4tsx5MmMcLJGGGEERf+f8Mh0WfEJqZj da+L/YvhjrRxFjTyz0xu6XeWSp0Fdc+FJkOQxw7Brl5RqtQ0WcZdBXkd5pSuY= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3676B8306A; Sun, 11 Apr 2021 17:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 19:25:19 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a74 From: Nico Williams To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Carsten Bormann , Michael Richardson , rfc-interest , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210412002518.GN9612@localhost> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 00:25:38 -0000 On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 08:50:05AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 12-Apr-21 08:12, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > On 2021-04-11, at 22:11, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> > >> Signed PGP part > >> > >> If RFCs won't be paginated, how will I know approximately how long a document is? > > > > Use the page count of the PDF then. > > (This is less stable over time, as the rendering may change, but probably as useful as the existing page count.) > > Yes, my guess is that PDF will become the go-to version for people > (such as lawyers and judges) who want page references for new-format > RFCs. So.. pagination forever then? From nobody Mon Apr 12 05:39:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03B33A1C2F for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:39:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT=1.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hNUVV1sDVpyF for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39A603A1C2D for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dc178.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.193.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FJpG304wpzylm; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:39:22 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 639923962.176911-6637a21dbd78bc9da9023776485b7739 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:39:22 +0200 Message-Id: To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Which documents reference an expired I-D? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:39:28 -0000 The =E2=80=9Creferenced-by=E2=80=9D machinery doesn=E2=80=99t seem to = work for expired I-Ds. It seems to me it would be particularly useful in this use case! Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Apr 12 05:56:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 130EF3A1CC0 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:56:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PDS_TONAME_EQ_TOLOCAL_SHORT=1.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LpEEyhVKtllX for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9041C3A1CBD for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dc178.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.193.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FJpdK304GzyPY; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:56:05 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:56:04 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 639924964.647676-ccc1e2bff23ce7354e686dc77265f238 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Which documents reference an expired I-D? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:56:12 -0000 On 2021-04-12, at 14:39, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > The =E2=80=9Creferenced-by=E2=80=9D machinery doesn=E2=80=99t seem to = work for expired I-Ds. > It seems to me it would be particularly useful in this use case! Please ignore, not sure what got in the way here. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Mon Apr 12 06:14:43 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB42A3A1D70 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 06:14:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4hHOlcmcYvH for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 06:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0105D3A1DE0 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 06:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dc178.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.193.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FJq2Z0GSCzyNK; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:14:30 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:14:29 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 639926069.149372-47cd5274e763e43184c1b9a5894f9aa5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <51947DB1-CF4D-403F-BB4D-BE9CF3DD1A05@tzi.org> References: To: tools-discuss X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Which documents reference an expired I-D? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:14:42 -0000 Third time=E2=80=99s the charm. I was really looking for: Which documents, including expired (but not: replaced), reference an = I-D? (Sorry for sending messages while being distracted by a meeting=E2=80=A6) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 2021-04-12, at 14:56, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 > On 2021-04-12, at 14:39, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >> The =E2=80=9Creferenced-by=E2=80=9D machinery doesn=E2=80=99t seem to = work for expired I-Ds. >> It seems to me it would be particularly useful in this use case! >=20 > Please ignore, not sure what got in the way here. >=20 > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Mon Apr 12 06:34:15 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D7F3A1E2C for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 06:34:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j5LwqjyoTpnt for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 06:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C397C3A1E2E for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 06:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unformal.localdomain ([47.186.1.92]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.16.1/8.16.1) with ESMTPSA id 13CDY4T4019429 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Apr 2021 08:34:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1618234445; bh=ry2mjl4FkITQGNuksnDNX9G9Q+bVZ5OTuuRTyU3I2kw=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=aNcjFEbpBt251Da/Zixx8MVSDrn8RiCq19LoqM1vR4ru/SxrHyB7gXAXipKBBfk3B An3g7OxPuE5/fmxd+ShHsTRlpEF223YgoyGPua0JJFguxPGFNZQ/WrgXN4v38gYPWE QuH+/cjuSbfyj22q8Dfyd1AQo1+I1YM/prYS+NPA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.1.92] claimed to be unformal.localdomain To: tools-discuss@ietf.org, Carsten Bormann References: <51947DB1-CF4D-403F-BB4D-BE9CF3DD1A05@tzi.org> From: Robert Sparks Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 08:33:59 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <51947DB1-CF4D-403F-BB4D-BE9CF3DD1A05@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Which documents reference an expired I-D? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:34:13 -0000 https://datatracker.ietf.org/api/v1/doc/relateddocument/?format=json&relationship__in=refnorm,refinfo&target__name=rfc6690&source__states__type=draft&source__states__slug__in=active,expired,rfc&limit=0 On 4/12/21 8:14 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Third time’s the charm. > I was really looking for: > > Which documents, including expired (but not: replaced), reference an I-D? > > (Sorry for sending messages while being distracted by a meeting…) > > Grüße, Carsten > > >> On 2021-04-12, at 14:56, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> On 2021-04-12, at 14:39, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> The “referenced-by” machinery doesn’t seem to work for expired I-Ds. >>> It seems to me it would be particularly useful in this use case! >> Please ignore, not sure what got in the way here. >> >> Grüße, Carsten >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org >> This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. >> * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org >> * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org >> * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org >> List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Mon Apr 12 07:56:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73563A2146 for ; 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Mon, 12 Apr 2021 07:55:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> From: Richard Barnes Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:55:46 -0400 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Carsten Bormann , Michael Richardson , rfc-interest , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000144b7005bfc7b6ff" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:56:16 -0000 --000000000000144b7005bfc7b6ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Lawyers and judges are happy to cite by section. Time to move on from tired, inaccurate metaphors. https://guides.ll.georgetown.edu/bluebook/citing-other On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 4:50 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 12-Apr-21 08:12, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > On 2021-04-11, at 22:11, Michael Richardson > wrote: > >> > >> Signed PGP part > >> > >> If RFCs won't be paginated, how will I know approximately how long a > document is? > > > > Use the page count of the PDF then. > > (This is less stable over time, as the rendering may change, but > probably as useful as the existing page count.) > > Yes, my guess is that PDF will become the go-to version for people (such > as lawyers and judges) who want page references for new-format RFCs. > > Brian > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --000000000000144b7005bfc7b6ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lawyers and judges are happy to cite by section.=C2=A0 Tim= e to move on from tired, inaccurate metaphors.


On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 4:50 PM= Brian E Carpenter <brian= .e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12-Apr-21 08:12, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2021-04-11, at 22:11, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:=
>>
>> Signed PGP part
>>
>> If RFCs won't be paginated, how will I know approximately how = long a document is?
>
> Use the page count of the PDF then.
> (This is less stable over time, as the rendering may change, but proba= bly as useful as the existing page count.)

Yes, my guess is that PDF will become the go-to version for people (such as= lawyers and judges) who want page references for new-format RFCs.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
--000000000000144b7005bfc7b6ff-- From nobody Mon Apr 12 09:46:53 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAA83A09D8 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 09:46:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IUzsdKLwOikP for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 09:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CD273A09D1 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 09:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dc178.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.193.120]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FJvlV1fW0zycY; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:46:46 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:46:45 +0200 Cc: rfc-interest , tools-discuss X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 639938805.233254-f956f8bfbb3ae654ffab62ab1a1cc909 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> To: Richard Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:46:53 -0000 On 2021-04-12, at 16:55, Richard Barnes = wrote: >=20 > Lawyers and judges are happy to cite by section. Time to move on from = tired, inaccurate metaphors. Yes, but assessing the size of a document (which is what this thread is = about) by section count doesn=E2=80=99t work so well. The page count of = the PDF is the only ready-made metric we have today. Putting in another = metric (e.g., word count(*)) might be helpful. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) ...where that often doesn=E2=80=99t actually count words but = characters and then divides that count by 6 (or 5!), which better copes = with different complexity grades. From nobody Mon Apr 12 10:13:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D063A0C5C for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:13:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id avckIuMRqO5D for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A8593A0C2A for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id n138so22657624lfa.3 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YhkXB4mdhTJBPsUf4HvFgPmsd7qXGzq5oONTzqcy/jM=; b=vuk68OU6Ck1CSyZYN0jC0S/qtAvA2vXT2oPh5mhZj0zRpB1UwgAF3k+2I55s6LE55J pPA6vuWpK7rj8YZ0V0+fAlSLBtVczKJ+mSwMVZdV3i6zlUKI2PPq7Ir1oPjsSNwETZWL NTiYsic33vjR1NCnh3C6Dq1R/uPaPhB/ENXLvLlpfPgTiJNKc5/ZaiWU0qwgLgoWbf61 uN8AKqiQycqpSeChSHF4qk6xfX/Xp1vbJqQV9hT/1XEbOguWxtYrtYwEwj7TZy4npzB6 BSLnPt2Y3oQM8iJv2M/IkP8GFeUDapR33MLmEp2DElpdx1N8nq/J9dPripEew4mAlFfA KybA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YhkXB4mdhTJBPsUf4HvFgPmsd7qXGzq5oONTzqcy/jM=; b=PRdHq7ikM9R7TTYJ51TqWp7YaRsv7UEANMJb2B+itZKS9DB3Y1FZImwnCb1TfS3l/U x2WbbOcZ9hHM4M2HF4vSdVi8Xsf4Z5WlOXta6tP8fjp/hJsZQdOlkieN3I1v3m5x2GTW K5Bv1SuPAeQ3q70h8VRccAasmq4VK7mm9n+XJ/Q7YCoHwcvla4CWHx1GuSOrkYhBmXgE O0PHwyEsAtig1OQs1YBHkqhUp8UBtXid1BL+VSTUb9+UTL0f/kX0LhFywnqkh0kgKpEK 9kfg6kzV8pkbx4Xj+XJZucBuRN7QNNfw8XoVPpI8/624cCscern5yTa726nyayx7OT/p wKDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fQfp6fa2gRELyq8waCqmFggrLE96+CBNZVHg8Cv3M2vCXaCRI ceVa9q6qevWo+xegExHkTXyja+k4fJY6QW4kkY9FMw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx01tjtlK8yIciIqEOAvnvPqTct/98rxdJyNdc4BhFym/x3YCh/8c/IOAcOLxsMrnWymDlaG6tOTyHJCehzyTw= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5083:: with SMTP id f3mr11464850lfm.562.1618247572150; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:12:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org> From: Warren Kumari Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:12:16 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Richard Barnes , rfc-interest , tools-discuss Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b26fb905bfc99f5d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:13:00 -0000 --000000000000b26fb905bfc99f5d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:46 PM Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 2021-04-12, at 16:55, Richard Barnes wrote: > > > > Lawyers and judges are happy to cite by section. Time to move on from > tired, inaccurate metaphors. > > Yes, but assessing the size of a document (which is what this thread is > about) by section count doesn=E2=80=99t work so well. The page count of = the PDF is > the only ready-made metric we have today. Putting in another metric (e.g= ., > word count(*)) might be helpful. > I must admit that Richard's mail really annoyed me -- I started writing a replay, but then realized that it was ranty and not likely to change anyone's views. I've now calmed down somewhat, and so will try and explain. The tone of "Time to move on from tired, inaccurate metaphors" smacks of stating a position as fact, and that disagreement means that you are stuck in the dark ages / ab absurdo. I've been using page count as a metric for tracking the amount of document review I've performed, how much I'm reading, etc. Yes, it's not a perfect metric, but it's one I've been using and is "good enough" for letting me know roughly how much I've reviewed this month versus last month, how much I've read in total, etc. I've got a system, and it works *for me*. I really disliked the tone of "Time to move on from..." - I understand that Richard doesn't happen like this metric - but I'm disappointed that, increasingly, if you don't agree with someone in the IETF, the tone pivots to implying that there is something wrong with them, or that they are stupid, or similar... W > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > (*) ...where that often doesn=E2=80=99t actually count words but characte= rs and > then divides that count by 6 (or 5!), which better copes with different > complexity grades. > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.or= g > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > --=20 The computing scientist=E2=80=99s main challenge is not to get confused by = the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra --000000000000b26fb905bfc99f5d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:46 PM Car= sten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote= :
On 2021-04-12,= at 16:55, Richard Barnes <richard.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Lawyers and judges are happy to cite by section.=C2=A0 Time to move on= from tired, inaccurate metaphors.

Yes, but assessing the size of a document (which is what this thread is abo= ut) by section count doesn=E2=80=99t work so well.=C2=A0 The page count of = the PDF is the only ready-made metric we have today.=C2=A0 Putting in anoth= er metric (e.g., word count(*)) might be helpful.

=
I must admit that Richard's mail really annoyed me -- I started w= riting a replay, but then realized that it was ranty and not likely to chan= ge anyone's views.
I've now calmed down somewhat, and so will try a= nd explain.

The tone of "Time to move on from tired, inaccurate m= etaphors" smacks of stating a position as fact, and that disagreement = means that you are stuck in the dark ages /=C2=A0ab absurdo.

I've = been using page count as a metric for tracking the amount of document revie= w I've performed, how much I'm reading, etc. Yes, it's not a pe= rfect metric, but it's one I've been using and is "good=C2=A0e= nough" for letting me know roughly=C2=A0how much I've reviewed thi= s month versus last month, how much I've read in total, etc. I've g= ot a system, and it works *for me*.
I really disliked the tone of "Tim= e to move on from..." - I understand that Richard doesn't happen l= ike this metric - but I'm disappointed that, increasingly, if you don&#= 39;t agree with someone in the IETF, the tone pivots to implying that there= is something wrong with them, or that they are stupid, or similar...
=

<= /div>
= W



=C2=A0

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

(*) ...where that often doesn=E2=80=99t actually count words but characters= and then divides that count by 6 (or 5!), which better copes with differen= t complexity grades.

___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss


--
The computing scientist=E2=80= =99s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his ow= n making.
=C2=A0 -- E. W. Dijkstra
--000000000000b26fb905bfc99f5d-- From nobody Mon Apr 12 10:32:51 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7C63A0E11 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.832 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.832 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.399, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL=1.31, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FZU5DAogLKWz for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D94C3A0E0F for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.51] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 13CHXE5H053515 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:33:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.51] From: "Paul Hoffman" Cc: rfc-interest , tools-discuss Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:32:45 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:32:50 -0000 On 12 Apr 2021, at 10:12, Warren Kumari wrote: > I really disliked the tone of "Time to move on from..." - I understand > that > Richard doesn't happen like this metric - but I'm disappointed that, > increasingly, if you don't agree with someone in the IETF, the tone > pivots > to implying that there is something wrong with them, or that they are > stupid, or similar... A strong +1 to what Warren said. As some of you might remember, I opposed the creation of official PDFs because their use should be discouraged in normal practice. I still fee that way. However, there's a wide gap between "you would likely be better served by the new shiny if you gave it a chance" and "you're wrong for wanting the old thing". I still hope that the v3bis work spends no time on improving the PDF format because it hinders the more valuable use cases, but I don't want them to deprecate it now that the costs have been sunk and there are a few people who find it useful. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Mon Apr 12 13:07:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91FD13A02BE for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:07:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=me.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LfFlco6_0ArU for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mr85p00im-zteg06022001.me.com (mr85p00im-zteg06022001.me.com [17.58.23.193]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FB5A3A017E for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:07:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=me.com; s=1a1hai; t=1618258029; bh=6WPjneiwrBrw3vQQXwNpHlVuZyaWjO2uEcB+aHz3qKg=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=y47al5G6kpINN4tvksELYGAxGup9tZtd7nQZsutnfce8wzmBw5x7o8QV5v7FLn7iP x8xt/IuZDuZC0a/a7kZEP1zN6V32n+zEG6SaHttTHyklKbSl9VXwoCaY7QgMh/NGf/ dhcbC3V9SWfem7ydR3+74/65gRJ25BssZs1o3TvoQfmiHXx6ZEiLcP2pNeJzyEt1fP tlWqajTR0qjmXTYrlMCEPJi3Agpo3oty1Nab9LRbuHeku36gbFG0zdjaEDPwuIIhin W3wCD7X1zBa1w5KvjKfyyeCnEv/KmbV65Rhju6G+9vanoBS9EXYCVk3zuSyYzdnM33 k8oWF/p60qDZw== Received: from [192.168.1.134] (198-27-188-165.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net [198.27.188.165]) by mr85p00im-zteg06022001.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 90B033808EE; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 20:07:09 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Ole Jacobsen In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:07:09 -0700 Cc: Ole Jacobsen , Brian E Carpenter , rfc-interest , tools-discuss Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <79805982-D6E0-4263-9F69-ACDF2BC0E632@me.com> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> To: Richard Barnes X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-12_11:2021-04-12, 2021-04-12 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=855 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2009150000 definitions=main-2104120129 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 20:07:16 -0000 And sections NEVER span more than a single page, do they now? That would be "inaccurate" I guess. Ole > On Apr 12, 2021, at 07:55, Richard Barnes = wrote: >=20 > Lawyers and judges are happy to cite by section. Time to move on from = tired, inaccurate metaphors. >=20 Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office: +1 415-550-9433 Cell: +1 415-370-4628 Web: protocoljournal.org E-mail: olejacobsen@me.com E-mail: ole@protocoljournal.org Skype: organdemo From nobody Mon Apr 12 14:31:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27E73A0E79 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URI_NOVOWEL=0.5] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e332PbKuGZyQ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 26C0B3A0E6B; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 14:31:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_387BA6A0-BF76-41B8-B4DD-55817FA6DC3D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:31:37 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: Tools Discussion To: "STARK, BARBARA H" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Gathering requirements for a new wiki X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:31:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_387BA6A0-BF76-41B8-B4DD-55817FA6DC3D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 10/04/2021, at 12:48 AM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >=20 > Thx Jay. One additional requirement occurred to me. It=E2=80=99s one = I=E2=80=99ve seen supported on all the platforms I=E2=80=99m familiar = with, but it=E2=80=99s probably best not to assume... > Support for file attachments (via upload) on wiki pages I will ensure that is included. Jay > =20 > Barbara > =20 > Just a reminder about this before we move to assess and recommend a = new wiki platform based on the proposed features below. > =20 > Jay >=20 >=20 > On 31/03/2021, at 2:06 PM, Jay Daley > wrote: > =20 > I=E2=80=99m helping out the Tools Team PM (Robert) with the migration = of functionality from tools.ietf.org = and one area that = needs addressing is wikis. We currently use Trac to provide wikis = though Trac itself has a broader applicability for software project = management. The Secretariat maintains a Trac installation at = https://trac.ietf.org = with separate = instances for each current Working Group (WG), Directorate, Team, and = most concluded WGs. Some of the wiki instances only point to other = resources, others are reasonably detailed, while the majority appear to = be unused or broken (cannot be started).=20 >=20 > The full usage stats are: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Total 364 > =E2=80=A2 Unused = 157 > =E2=80=A2 Broken = 28 > =E2=80=A2 In use - wiki 140 > =E2=80=A2 In use - issues 39 >=20 >=20 > We are proposing to replace Trac with a new wiki product and instead = of having multiple public instances, have a single community wiki, with = the existing pages copied over. This will be a true community wiki with = any member of the community able to add/change pages and reorganise as = needed, moderated by other members of the community and the secretariat, = and provided they have a datatracker login to authenticate with. = Private pages will be allowed, but their creation controlled by the = admins. >=20 > In multiple small discussions with the community, the following = requirements have emerged for new wiki software: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Strategic >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must be available at reasonable cost (to the = IETF LLC) for possibly thousands of users. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must be widely used, well documented, actively = developed and actively supported to ensure that we do not end up with a = dead-end product. This includes any required plugins. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must be a specific wiki product and not a = larger product that includes a wiki as one part of its functionality, to = prevent complications and overlaps with other tools. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must be scalable to support tens of thousands = of users to support the full IETF community and reasonable future = growth. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Content >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support a text based input language. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support code snippets, maths expressions = and diagrams to enable the full representation of the same kind of = content as found in I-Ds and RFCs. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must provide an excellent mobile experience. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must provide content backup, change visibility, = and the ability to revert changes >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should support Markdown by default for page = content. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should support git for content backup and = change visibility. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should provide a WYSIWYG editor for Markdown = that can be used interchangeably with direct Markdown editing. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should have a themable interface to enable the = wiki to be given a look and feel consistent with www.ietf.org = . >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Integration >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support OIDC for authentication and role = permissions. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support custom module development. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Should support Matomo for web analytics so that = these can be integrated with our website statistics. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Local management (if self-hosted) >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must support either MySql/MariaDB or PostgreSQL = as those are the database products supported by the IT operations team. >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Must run on Linux and should run in a Docker = container to fit with the management processes of the IT operations = team. >=20 >=20 > We would like your views on these requirements so that we can move to = assessing products. >=20 >=20 > thanks > Jay >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org = > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org = > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org = > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss = > =20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_387BA6A0-BF76-41B8-B4DD-55817FA6DC3D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 10/04/2021, at 12:48 AM, STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com> = wrote:

Thx Jay. One additional requirement occurred to me. It=E2=80=99= s one I=E2=80=99ve seen supported on all the platforms I=E2=80=99m = familiar with, but it=E2=80=99s probably best not to assume...
  • Support for file attachments (via upload) on wiki = pages

I will ensure that is included.

Jay

 
Barbara
 
Just a reminder about this before = we move to assess and recommend a new wiki platform based on the = proposed features below.
 
Jay


On 31/03/2021, at 2:06 PM, Jay = Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
 
I=E2=80=99m helping out the Tools Team PM (Robert) with the = migration of functionality from tools.ietf.org and one area that needs = addressing is wikis.  We currently use Trac to provide wikis though = Trac itself has a broader applicability for software project management. =  The Secretariat maintains a Trac installation at https://trac.ietf.org with separate instances for = each current Working Group (WG), Directorate, Team, and most concluded = WGs.  Some of the wiki instances only point to other resources, = others are reasonably detailed, while the majority appear to be unused = or broken (cannot be started). 

The full usage stats are:

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Total          &nb= sp;            = ;         364
          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Unused          &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;       157
          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Broken          &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;        28
          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 In = use - wiki          &nb= sp;         140
          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 In = use - issues 39


We are proposing to replace = Trac with a new wiki product and instead of having multiple public = instances, have a single community wiki, with the existing pages copied = over.  This will be a true community wiki with any member of the = community able to add/change pages and reorganise as needed, moderated = by other members of the community and the secretariat, and provided they = have a datatracker login to authenticate with.  Private pages will = be allowed, but their creation controlled by the admins.
In multiple small discussions with the community, the = following requirements have emerged for new wiki software:

=E2=80=A2 Strategic

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must be available at reasonable cost (to the IETF LLC) for possibly = thousands of users.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must be widely used, well documented, actively developed and actively = supported to ensure that we do not end up with a dead-end product. =  This includes any required plugins.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must be a specific wiki product and not a larger product that includes a = wiki as one part of its functionality, to prevent complications and = overlaps with other tools.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must be scalable to support tens of thousands of users to support the = full IETF community and reasonable future growth.

=E2=80=A2 Content

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must support a text based input language.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must support code snippets, maths expressions and diagrams to enable the = full representation of the same kind of content as found in I-Ds and = RFCs.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must provide an excellent mobile experience.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must provide content backup, change visibility, and the ability to = revert changes

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Should support Markdown by default for page content.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Should support git for content backup and change visibility.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Should provide a WYSIWYG editor for Markdown that can be used = interchangeably with direct Markdown editing.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Should have a themable interface to enable the wiki to be given a look = and feel consistent with www.ietf.org.

=E2=80=A2 Integration

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must support OIDC for authentication and role permissions.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must support custom module development.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Should support Matomo for web analytics so that these can be integrated = with our website statistics.

=E2=80=A2 = Local management (if self-hosted)

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must support either MySql/MariaDB or PostgreSQL as those are the = database products supported by the IT operations team.

          &nb= sp;  =E2=80=A2 = Must run on Linux and should run in a Docker container to fit with the = management processes of the IT operations team.


We would like your views on these requirements = so that we can move to assessing products.


thanks
Jay

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org
___________________________________________________________Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug = reports.
* Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs = to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs = to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss
 
-- 
Jay Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_387BA6A0-BF76-41B8-B4DD-55817FA6DC3D-- From nobody Mon Apr 12 15:42:24 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F343A12E9 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:42:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYLVQ7TXi-Tv for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E50A03A12E7 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD7638D41; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id KbOZOqsPUR1J; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18C138D38; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E72D1241; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:42:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Warren Kumari cc: rfc-interest , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:42:23 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Warren Kumari wrote: > The tone of "Time to move on from tired, inaccurate metaphors" smacks= of > stating a position as fact, and that disagreement means that you are = stuck > in the dark ages / ab absurdo. +1 > I've been using page count as a metric for tracking the amount of doc= ument > review I've performed, how much I'm reading, etc. Yes, it's not a per= fect > metric, but it's one I've been using and is "good enough" for letting= me > know roughly how much I've reviewed this month versus last month, how= much > I've read in total, etc. I've got a system, and it works *for me*. > I really disliked the tone of "Time to move on from..." - I understan= d that > Richard doesn't happen like this metric - but I'm disappointed that, > increasingly, if you don't agree with someone in the IETF, the tone p= ivots > to implying that there is something wrong with them, or that they are > stupid, or similar... This is really the origin of my question. The IESG has used page-count as a metric. It's interesting to look at documents in different WGs (or for different protocols), and see how they vary in size. How much is Protocol, and how much is Security Consideration? John Levine's "but IDs still have page count" helps me not at all when comparing two RFCs. It this a document I can read over a coffee break, or = do I need to lock-myself in the wifi-free tree-house all afternoon? =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmB0zMQACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUovwgAvg1F/OM823oOc4oK766TbLjbhdqIjDa0AzItc81hX54MpXXcwsfyf9E2 +MlmqJMDGemGSYjXN6r5PutjtGAhjWnVB9n4KqccdFWeE6Kflo5qLV0SqeNq/Uk/ 3UGSl/+UUU140yTUCuaHsZNmUFMR+0GDSUQHvKl+ETU27B9MEkGoc8dvig5fT8Y3 qCMdjNce6epe/NozRfUfLEPjqebGgxUTz00jgrxEfckNZ85I8TfcrQN9XfBAmFWh kYnSgF0f9NqItoe0AFfj5XFLjWwTPv8FUkqOYv8Ke/w09k/KtmODIOx43Cb69ohZ TU39ritHT+l00CNoqkMiSet9djiRLQ== =qyWB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Apr 12 15:44:09 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC55D3A1384 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:44:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZEuFGm2NKlB for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 647583A12F4 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E66E38D46; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id yCFQdkNGAk9m; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E9C38D38; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6891241; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:43:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Ole Jacobsen cc: rfc-interest , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <79805982-D6E0-4263-9F69-ACDF2BC0E632@me.com> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <79805982-D6E0-4263-9F69-ACDF2BC0E632@me.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:43:55 -0400 Message-ID: <22210.1618267435@localhost> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 22:44:08 -0000 Ole Jacobsen wrote: > And sections NEVER span more than a single page, do they now? It's a good reason to err on the side having more section headers than fewer ones. For numbering points rather than "*" them. From nobody Mon Apr 12 16:09:31 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255E33A159F for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:09:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7YMM852hANye for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (black.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 707293A156D for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:09:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D84342FDB; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:09:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-133-83.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.133.83]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B0576342501; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:09:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.133.83 (trex/6.1.1); Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:09:23 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Bitter-Inform: 6ef075386fc3850a_1618268963015_1953336363 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1618268963015:2021330972 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1618268963015 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F4E81760; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:09:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=dxni5NTNf0sV8e xXrM9Ulygr46U=; b=YEzLslulp/S9+ZS2xBNYRVTjnzKwqaW3EQ6nk/+zZkUjT6 3mn3XvN7Q1CYiCHCuZzSYbhrxeCPSp5lJ9hfocuvqKSUlY0e1ZXjoGUOZobozzlt 1N5ug5fBpqU9V6ebM8kBfj9yHQfhp+ReyO+UKLRTTW4Kr+JcsUlCHXEaHvz+s= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 720E97E5FC; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:09:14 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a47 From: Nico Williams To: Richard Barnes Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Michael Richardson , Carsten Bormann , rfc-interest , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210412230913.GX9612@localhost> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:09:29 -0000 On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 10:55:46AM -0400, Richard Barnes wrote: > Lawyers and judges are happy to cite by section. Time to move on from > tired, inaccurate metaphors. But Michael was not asking about citations. He was asking for a complexity metric. Speaking of sections for citations _and_ metrics, the ITU-T x.68x and x.69x series documents do a great job of breaking everything down into many many teeny tiny sections, which makes it very easy to refer very specifically to parts of their texts, and since they're all small, counting them might be a useful metric. I think it would be much harder for us to adopt that approach than anything we might do regarding pagination, but I have to say that I like many-tiny-sections, and it would be especially nice to have all MUSTs, SHOULDs, and so on, referenceable by section number just by dint of their containing sections being so small. Many-tiny-sections is _mostly_ a matter of style, but in the ITU-T specs I mentioned, only top-level sections and sub-sections have titles, with sub-sub-sections having no title and the first paragraph on the same line as the subsection number. That may require xml2rfc support. E.g.: 8. Basic encoding rules ... 8.19 Encoding of an object identifier value 8.19.1 The encoding of an object identifier value shall be primitive. 8.19.2 The contents octets shall be an (ordered) list of encodings of subidentifiers (see 8.19.3 and 8.19.4) concatenated together. Each subidentifier ... 8.19.3 The number of subidentifiers ... where sections and sub-sections have titles, but sub-sub-sections do not. This is almost like having paragraph numbering as a sort of sub-section numbering, except that you can see that's not quite the rule (e.g., x.690 section 8.19.2 has two paragraphs). But I would be fine with that too. That said, x.68x and x.69x series documents not only have many tiny sections, they are also paginated. Unpopular idea: maybe we should revisit the no-pagination decision. Nico -- From nobody Mon Apr 12 16:12:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F373A137D for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:12:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZeXv7lGLxM4m for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from olivedrab.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (olivedrab.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90FCF3A15CF for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:12:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C5F5781785; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:12:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-11-78.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.11.78]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2A9EC78174A; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:12:39 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.11.78 (trex/6.1.1); Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:12:39 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Callous-Soft: 5eb717ce6f92b510_1618269159442_1550903234 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1618269159442:3265499569 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1618269159441 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29947E5FC; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:12:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=GldoHCYLa1MgSn dgVufL/lDx+Wo=; b=pMDyvpgmqgQDQPQhBJ6bTzsH4edoK6H9+LlHFJcjs/cenc MuLwTCR37+ygMR6Rl38UmIfFlYMT+Vt4PVWtUvhGonRwC/0u+vU+ZK+s0zIVrQcP vec9+u/qv8WJLeQLzB+/8GzLNQcwKsaB+NMq4Nt2BsXcebH0iGl9eQQbTgW/k= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C394E81760; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:12:32 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a47 From: Nico Williams To: Warren Kumari Cc: Carsten Bormann , rfc-interest , Richard Barnes , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210412231231.GY9612@localhost> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:12:55 -0000 On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:12:16PM -0400, Warren Kumari wrote: > The tone of "Time to move on from tired, inaccurate metaphors" smacks of > stating a position as fact, and that disagreement means that you are stuck > in the dark ages / ab absurdo. > > [...] - but I'm disappointed that, > increasingly, if you don't agree with someone in the IETF, the tone pivots > to implying that there is something wrong with them, or that they are > stupid, or similar... Thanks for the reminder that this doesn't just happen on the general list. I wish we could stop arguing in this way. If you catch me doing it, please let me know. Nico -- From nobody Mon Apr 12 16:15:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FDAF3A15DE for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:15:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X4jJ2tyKDScn for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from donkey.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (donkey.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4C603A15D9 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:14:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1F8542991; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:14:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-18-66.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.18.66]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BA0E25422B8; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:14:55 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.18.66 (trex/6.1.1); Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:14:56 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Print-Unite: 632735e43b38ac19_1618269296013_2302614412 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1618269296013:1852932098 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1618269296013 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65B3681760; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:14:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=sgpU76CKRotaVD 651RWTvFriKPY=; b=h5o6NQ/tQl7uwPooD13xfW+1XzI9w8NHWDNcxoZTeHkoVq g6/nNZyQxS+fMTQzyN/jqj/DMtY8kJgoe5wBzne8oGXRNPLW5W9Y8LW/m3DimwZa Qpcwyge9rJtjlQq1w2lMuZvuIGwHQZlK46itvxhabC8VDhf1fRIKXWBNEZFxI= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2FC807E5FC; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:14:49 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a47 From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Cc: rfc-interest , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210412231448.GZ9612@localhost> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <4915F484-A2C4-44B0-BAF8-B3CF09D9450F@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:15:04 -0000 On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 10:32:45AM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On 12 Apr 2021, at 10:12, Warren Kumari wrote: > > I really disliked the tone of "Time to move on from..." - I understand > > that > > Richard doesn't happen like this metric - but I'm disappointed that, > > increasingly, if you don't agree with someone in the IETF, the tone > > pivots > > to implying that there is something wrong with them, or that they are > > stupid, or similar... > > A strong +1 to what Warren said. As some of you might remember, I opposed > the creation of official PDFs because their use should be discouraged in > normal practice. I still fee that way. However, there's a wide gap between > "you would likely be better served by the new shiny if you gave it a chance" > and "you're wrong for wanting the old thing". Remind me why we're losing pagination? It's mostly about the tooling, right? Feel free to do so off-list to avoid flame war potential. I do accept that we're losing pagination. Nico -- From nobody Mon Apr 12 16:29:17 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 473463A1669 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:29:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ISygcCm2vISe for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eastern.birch.relay.mailchannels.net (eastern.birch.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.209.55]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFCA03A1665 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:29:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECFE703262; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:29:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (100-101-162-31.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.101.162.31]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D3EF7703696; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:29:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.101.162.31 (trex/6.1.1); Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:29:10 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Tank-Bottle: 7b67287357489fa1_1618270149945_768218456 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1618270149945:3273341731 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1618270149945 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B0B8ACCA; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:29:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=5FLPeu+R9tf6Ocn6MyZ62sOPq3I=; b=tahoxr16w85 +8SHDEHzPQ9UFdxuqHLlwlJGcQc6O95RlNvYFLZ4Yn28bmWJrpjKPn0wpNLHHYlP hblmFJ9uu2U2gTdyhVjSKR1qXts0zD3SUrbnY73jtmRIw1P+Ak6veCTAY8henVbb +jxl4+dEV3H6Gqx4RoNe43e9/7FmK3B4= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a47.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EFB608AAE6; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 16:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:29:02 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a47 From: Nico Williams To: rfc-interest , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210412232901.GB9612@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Interest in title-less sub-sub-sections? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:29:16 -0000 Consider the x.680 and x.690 series documents. They typically have many tiny sub-sub-sections, with many sub-sub-sections having just one or two paragraphs and no title. Presumably those tiny sub-sub-sections lack a title because a title would make the documents less readable. For tiny sub-sub-sections, the lack of a title almost makes the sub-sub-section number akin to a paragraph number. E.g., x.690, where sections 8, 8.1, 8.1.1, ..., 8.19 have titles, but 8.1.1.1, ..., 8.19.1, 8.19.2, ..., do not: 8 Basic encoding rules 8.1 General rules for encoding 8.1.1 Structure of an encoding 8.1.1.1 The encoding of a data value shall consist of four components which shall appear in the following order: ... 8.19 Encoding of an object identifier value 8.19.1 The encoding of an object identifier value shall be primitive. 8.19.2 The contents octets shall be an (ordered) list of encodings of subidentifiers (see 8.19.3 and 8.19.4) concatenated together. Each subidentifier is represented as a series of (one or more) octets. ... 8.19.3 The number of subidentifiers ... What's really nice about this is how easy it makes it to make very specific references. Also, because most sub-sub-sections are so short, it is easy to refer to most every normative requirement/recommendation/ option. Would we need any changes to the xml2rfc schema or tooling to make this style possible for Internet-Drafts and RFCs? Thanks, Nico -- From nobody Mon Apr 12 17:06:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C4F53A17D4 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:06:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=itaoyama.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sq1OB00pV1ly for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 17:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JPN01-TY1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr1400110.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.140.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CB623A17CD for ; 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X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 00:06:42 -0000 I'm not sure why apparently nobody got this, but RFCs still have page counts. Here is a very recent example, (see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/GGb94E77Boes9UWUjunO3CIhH70) >>>>>>>> RFC 8997 Title: Deprecation of TLS 1.1 for Email Submission and Access Author: L. Velvindron, S. Farrell Status: Standards Track Stream: IETF Date: March 2021 Mailbox: logan@cyberstorm.mu, stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie Pages: 6 Updates: RFC 8314 I-D Tag: draft-ietf-uta-tls-for-email-05.txt URL: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8997 DOI: 10.17487/RFC8997 >>>>>>>> The information isn't available at https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8997, but it must be somewhere. I have no idea how it's calculated. It could be made available more widely. This would help people who measure reading effort in pages but would still inhibit citing by page. On 2021-04-13 01:46, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Yes, but assessing the size of a document (which is what this thread is about) by section count doesn’t work so well. The page count of the PDF is the only ready-made metric we have today. Putting in another metric (e.g., word count(*)) might be helpful. Another count is bytes. I seem to remember when RFC (or was in I-D) announcements came with byte counts. Checking, I found that up to RFC 8649, there is a 'Character' count (see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/B2v9FoL7UpnVS20fNmViiDwWfxU), but there isn't anymore starting with RFC 8650 (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf-announce/VVRlgHG5zAov4N6xSPLEDPziaOg). Such a count could be reintroduced if appropriately defined. It should probably only count net content characters, not gross count including markup. > Grüße, Carsten > > (*) ...where that often doesn’t actually count words but characters and then divides that count by 6 (or 5!), which better copes with different complexity grades. Both on a personal level and/or on an institutional level, it may be possible to develop some estimates of characters per page or words per page, and so on. Regards, Martin. From nobody Mon Apr 12 19:36:05 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E583A0DBA for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 19:36:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.684 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.684 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcastmailservice.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnbPvWR7tz64 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 19:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C12EE3A0DB8 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 19:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-15v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.111]) by resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id W8polBcR8fFsMW8uClbWDH; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 02:35:56 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20180828_2048; t=1618281356; bh=I9MHeK1377V+1pls2766tYD1OYGwmg0Q/Eo2kpmy3gc=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=N+ACgIhSXvp/Z9LmgSvCcHBNDWE/jZc2AVNABGlgVArDp08JR95T+D2wnna+PPIUF ju6Z4ZFzc2NOzCp90kzPWhT2stIUJPlu0xtPgrnCjCnJX++j3Kr8rN7OVHtXpcFYaN 3a3TAwcB0Ce3Sg97XK1RZJSP8NDwY6/hiszEO7PR8M3Ici1wWB75f8v/2UnAfUQXQ2 NjjcGd95dHtkP/3adDHxkNC+16M9JC7VwfBa6OQDjfQYfgrUJqDRFucOrMCtJHIjOi nU68VxxgLu0utHDmjaWWR8PXEF5+MXRuKUkhXUrRuByMLXvRim/g8+XOY/AdHNbQMG 8cXmoyK1Sz6Qg== Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([IPv6:2601:192:4a00:430:222:fbff:fe91:d396]) by resomta-ch2-15v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id W8u8lYAC63gbqW8u8last3; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 02:35:54 +0000 X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=-100.00;st=legit Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 13D1ZnsH003996; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:35:50 -0400 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id 13D1Zm84003993; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:35:48 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Nico Williams Cc: rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org, tools-discuss@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <20210412232901.GB9612@localhost> (nico@cryptonector.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 21:35:47 -0400 Message-ID: <87v98r9dak.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Interest in title-less sub-sub-sections? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 02:36:04 -0000 Nico Williams writes: > Consider the x.680 and x.690 series documents. They typically have many > tiny sub-sub-sections, with many sub-sub-sections having just one or two > paragraphs and no title. > Would we need any changes to the xml2rfc schema or tooling to make this > style possible for Internet-Drafts and RFCs? Naively, I'd expect our tools to handle this smoothly if you declared a section whose title is the null string. But I haven't tried it. Dale From nobody Mon Apr 12 23:44:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4E333A0C55 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DPMUOSjQEKNO for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 627D33A0C4C for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:44:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1618296288; bh=ip5QqydGyr7MmLriOUJC1vW93Gy/Q1nqRTM+t2p6KEo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=A5dNJ0cxyEsEhM/XWgSDMmoyLHtriF/K7QTWJOYc428V3PtzPh4GPx2lv1toYT88Z E6qH8NdKsUZGqN9x9Mt8J9LqwG7nBP1A7RvitYqLmtJI8lszYyALMtpwib/zqeV2wO sL8zSnx9Z6HLEyOEBO+aS+kQ2x3SdIXfzUMWwMn8= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.50.232]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx105 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MCsUC-1lNN5M0PJY-008vYi for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 08:44:48 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <20210412230913.GX9612@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <727545ba-daef-92c9-6574-e2cc100e5dfd@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 08:44:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210412230913.GX9612@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:n7jaWJJL8WsEK7iR04vCw2MU4BJ7fWn20H+UjUVB9Rft1UOhzxt 5eoMDYBfmyH2CJVcmRa/XqYanuXYGR870HRcnZswzZewBkyps468/9W4KeiEZGeJfI/jIaq rsU8BropYYzAOtvRLJk8kKUm89Lz/JXg9pmYdftnwzNYV9x76GcW7dkJRvfbvW4otaPFmC3 44Uwvp9FQJp+1A1Yvmu0g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:OsRKuDTwbt8=:w7GTLPmDUgCJNpzNIZ/odg MEtuUxDGLAyd4RW9+EUTKFpLzifWfhSEroJOxsT6IbSwlHk30af7IM3jn1NQ38aQi3YVZEcp2 X1ZdM8IlBE5WGmpKYpd+8TiTeBdm3YNBZ82p7yn51ttIfgkAu+R9YD9DIj7iSfiQKMQ9ZDHZI BJWVdbSoCwUmso1st+/NklNtoGZiphpQKt2sTgc2G6EOX68D9Fik/dqhB8cteLfcV9fTidP43 EMYhzdKC1p9LSJbfthmOeMS3fSRUfVq8BSxnOXoM9yz1QKVWrr3Pty5YJJheRrAkrOXAj1jtA lY6PMy8+icy/caRZ9g88rsaUCUZBFbAe+HUlTcYxambPMJ4tBxf1OzIBPFx8vvS7PtvLkDP3V eN1HEyhn0Icg9URGNn+cO4tXrmAEJmAUoz9fUY49mwOkoMGxnU7ZgHrUI4FqNo8Xl6xA2p8TE Xq1OANFGgaAEUWXABrcrTxBALEO8C7kZ8iESol0nWXa82nkdqMglP1YfwQ/UdOYtbDglPomUh PnCezksdnEh0OM3jSuontKBVargqmr2kCu3KbK9jlFXWDBjUeAG0kBSfT9pJhVApsscCvPZM5 D4gzIbnY4P9NHFMlJdYX5L6HI4odbgQHpc4/JforXLKpYnebuEAk4qyeuylnmfpp4yFuDcgeW XICWsXn0MRZKGota0CLFDhsQGHDawZEa/2RpVVaEPMPnbrK/sxt7mmZH02qOTd30+mjibDKf7 5BFsT+PC9q/seidzTfHNcywNMwWglIkiEdSfAOcpjgKTgfIRX7lQYc9xilDtvo/xE+akCBW24 5j9p/aSTFTH8AZfjlcLc8CdOqtBSxG3QHbAkdlmggYZpeVdbsqK0JKmRkYlZ5HpwS08D9l8kH lNy9Ecr27Um7pcFGfGB5uz8ohP4VqHoyacuq7bVu+S++fIdWW2BAmHfNL8TigG0QL8o5ZsUPB 2bbph6hB1Ki6OR2M+L/bW9HcgGeND/2Ise128KMnqQU3/vuvaiPPAaqBdodHTXSDx26FkcKbS 3pyQl61B5hvcyZ7hC0Akx2r0Cou04M373LCvtOGmWJaqcKbOxR0F7MDvkJCTYv0Jebs67yX9c KO4mLp8IS6e7qdoF39RzfyWZXflPf6XTc4Sv/m9XERgdLaATj9/+o69d3hvOwHJr1BQVv0uFX nakd8XdlX5VZX1DJrWFRVeXuKYvLW0QcaeRi2yhvtcwkREkZnx1GswtidEPTLMYtuKdYo= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 06:44:56 -0000 Am 13.04.2021 um 01:09 schrieb Nico Williams: > On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 10:55:46AM -0400, Richard Barnes wrote: >> Lawyers and judges are happy to cite by section. Time to move on from >> tired, inaccurate metaphors. > > But Michael was not asking about citations. He was asking for a > complexity metric. > > Speaking of sections for citations _and_ metrics, the ITU-T x.68x and > x.69x series documents do a great job of breaking everything down into > many many teeny tiny sections, which makes it very easy to refer very > specifically to parts of their texts, and since they're all small, > counting them might be a useful metric. > > I think it would be much harder for us to adopt that approach than > anything we might do regarding pagination, but I have to say that I like > many-tiny-sections, and it would be especially nice to have all MUSTs, > SHOULDs, and so on, referenceable by section number just by dint of > their containing sections being so small. > > Many-tiny-sections is _mostly_ a matter of style, but in the ITU-T specs > I mentioned, only top-level sections and sub-sections have titles, with > sub-sub-sections having no title and the first paragraph on the same > line as the subsection number. That may require xml2rfc support. E.g.: > > 8. Basic encoding rules > ... > 8.19 Encoding of an object identifier value > > 8.19.1 The encoding of an object identifier value shall be primitive= . > > 8.19.2 The contents octets shall be an (ordered) list of encodings o= f > subidentifiers (see 8.19.3 and 8.19.4) concatenated together. > > Each subidentifier ... > > 8.19.3 The number of subidentifiers ... > > where sections and sub-sections have titles, but sub-sub-sections do > not. > ... We do number paragraphs, which seem to be almost the same granularity. The only difference is that the paragraph number is not accessible in all formats. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Apr 12 23:50:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178B23A0CC0 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=gmx.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6m75w7Rg13Td for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:50:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F7B53A0CBE for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2021 23:50:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1618296601; bh=ToqqkhkmKiOygCySDHe9p71g9tC1fyysNwmLHNdmCcw=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=eHW2YGoK3gh6bOulwa+C8kAQuHvFkmfLgY9/yBH1fkgNXTPInBawJIELuScuA2LaW 4WxrUawv8D+aRCvFWU+4WAbDeJTBu/MWayKCSvryRtn+YUrKNNPzFoMw2pXiyAXtmf wa8e/7FlN7Ukz9Px86YOAol7NNR137jz/Y6e4ZBE= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([91.61.50.232]) by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx104 [212.227.17.168]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1McpJq-1m65ed2PD8-00ZwuE for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 08:50:01 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <20210412232901.GB9612@localhost> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <216f2dce-04ca-69e9-7fcb-a34a95eabd32@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 08:50:00 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210412232901.GB9612@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:n713e53wi2bxH86lZikiEkUY9Fk8MYK2cMxqlYrpmLmeEOiaCUu bk7EBV/zakRnwnxtAZEDURJKRQijL1/Hbkag3dnkI0WawbF+dPtqI8Ru07J9KQ9yY5cbpe0 CnW73SCrHanaHanpciXQiC8Xjhb2mcgm17Tw0P+Z/bPECQExpRx9J/oECZyxPu5kMpZoYq9 m0jTvymwIdfcYbiVo72WQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jI/5lK9KQts=:Q3wChiD9/8fNcxZfxBOy9+ /gsbfSfFORRIuFNeHtVqCkSvrrKs6tvdAJuxHOU+acngAMxBhP1rpyZQJmotiAjFj1NvWIQ0H xhuWTEAADTaRKuwbJUNB6KhjVb05M1iDubRoJR1YeAA3o+9TRAO1qVvkUMiTBUtGRmPK5HlGF nKx7ny8BRXG6pn6f6OVpu0L1zWDDdv6pZHRqhYtCfPZRDhDT6aXX5Klwk0GQA7lixzvBRh3pa SwFtycM9wYTtgolhoqjv00ekmhJa3Ocql+UQ4AVtwrBkwsdiZo96qPb13jLv1BM54IODt6vYa Vtj/Cpu/BLWNhIqxQOdXsbErAcxPvZ7kFM9qM6mUMsxadr0LNy0X8NTw2u0RA4KiqkfY1/N1X KTPpw2aP/swq/lzgzAVk1NPfnjWc23394MBRO7ObjZrNovO0V0J5S8QX5WMkxDI2ggApMuZfU U9S8zi1hAUWzcqaUWMKWPQSY+uIvzOq8bwXrxbzLRALGO9XJnpDL8LkDVntdA0lZjlOoO6DVz JodQnpvrv/ArXqz2o0qFDhwQhWSvIa0lo5hP/BN7Gs+KbdfxQH+VyKCgfjKuhtpfha9VkUiak I/bMLPg03tuLKQYpjV0ZyZZIxtR1E8kT6z7fyC+SEb61wv+ArxTreFGRNkVY9sshB37ESHNmj xqcnCam7yGUqQ0ojP6CsAMspxZkLxUJPU+3WB5a1Pow+7IZflce4ysRQqnTUYnYAcNcsfRXfm M9xr7ndnV4D/9tmQi6oVoqVOmbeE2Nk+WLWRg+IF4IaIHmZ7ArifrkzTnomGm2jfLzvNG3jam eUufxcpFSzmS02OlibJCmxuho/YPYr7zS5zyJzpwfWxdChIK4ur2JgRsegsZtcMbx0fFbtg+F fjtwGeIc0UZw1fSL69QIMJ3lsjZRSFeDXgD9mnEtyoKh2xhhIjbKlD9COkKoHdVKpy3SQfRqE Qy0zaI+Iy4pMJfCPl2/5Wei/oc/2wq+4fJck0y9aIswAgTgY/PUj8YplwbA4J+PK6BpljU/id gJ3rt42q5h97nfbAEQNJzoPkQcF5lsoVkpdGu0xhSSmKIFASCY9O0vd62uqRCT1pH65eUIhKk rP5ZCOfMkCS9sOEhiIBbg0iDGOg5L495DGOWJQs/CDG/8RgmgN+4xEhdHmHgaZjvjIgXZdayf p6G7mXDxXNOrG64dReTZyIOMuktWuiBVAqnOecKJr+3DBaUJ31ITk2XFUNWCZxaHROA2xgqLO 4VRts9iY5kSS5X3L2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Interest in title-less sub-sub-sections? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 06:50:09 -0000 Am 13.04.2021 um 01:29 schrieb Nico Williams: > Consider the x.680 and x.690 series documents. They typically have many > tiny sub-sub-sections, with many sub-sub-sections having just one or two > paragraphs and no title. > > Presumably those tiny sub-sub-sections lack a title because a title > would make the documents less readable. For tiny sub-sub-sections, the > lack of a title almost makes the sub-sub-section number akin to a > paragraph number. > > E.g., x.690, where sections 8, 8.1, 8.1.1, ..., 8.19 have titles, but > 8.1.1.1, ..., 8.19.1, 8.19.2, ..., do not: > > 8 Basic encoding rules > > 8.1 General rules for encoding > > 8.1.1 Structure of an encoding > > 8.1.1.1 The encoding of a data value shall consist of four component= s > which shall appear in the following order: > > ... > > 8.19 Encoding of an object identifier value > > 8.19.1 The encoding of an object identifier value shall be primitive= . > > 8.19.2 The contents octets shall be an (ordered) list of encodings o= f > subidentifiers (see 8.19.3 and 8.19.4) concatenated together. > > Each subidentifier is represented as a series of (one or more) > octets. ... > > 8.19.3 The number of subidentifiers ... > > What's really nice about this is how easy it makes it to make very > specific references. Also, because most sub-sub-sections are so short, > it is easy to refer to most every normative requirement/recommendation/ > option. As I just sid in the other thread: we already number paragraphs; we just do not display these numbers. In the example above, "8.1.1.1" would get an anchor like "section-8.1.1-1". That's totally fine for references, the anchor is easily discoverable from the HTML format. > Would we need any changes to the xml2rfc schema or tooling to make this > style possible for Internet-Drafts and RFCs? It would need to start with a change in the Style Guide. I would prefer to use what we already have (and maybe tune *that* instead). 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X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:33:45 -0000 On 12/04/2021 23:43, Michael Richardson wrote: > Ole Jacobsen wrote: > > And sections NEVER span more than a single page, do they now? > > It's a good reason to err on the side having more section headers than fewer > ones. For numbering points rather than "*" them. When this topic surfaced a few months ago I pointed to such as draft-ietf-teas-yang-te where there is a section of 52 pages and another of 58 pages. The feedback I got suggested to me that those who designed this new, pageless system had no acquaintance with YANG or any such language in documents. Perhaps we will have to create a YANG2.0 language to cater for our XML, pageless world! Tom Petch > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > . > From nobody Tue Apr 13 09:09:32 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E33753A1D1E for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:09:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m4lpiuReg835 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64F0F3A1D0C for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C44538FF5; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 12:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id gbjibd9iT1y7; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 12:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982ED38FF1; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 12:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D1D1150; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 12:09:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Nico Williams , rfc-interest , tools-discuss In-Reply-To: <20210412230913.GX9612@localhost> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <20210412230913.GX9612@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:09:31 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nico Williams wrote: > But Michael was not asking about citations. He was asking for a > complexity metric. Thank you. > 8. Basic encoding rules > ... > 8.19 Encoding of an object identifier value > 8.19.1 The encoding of an object identifier value shall be primitive. I personally find this presentation ugly and very disruptive to reading. If the size of the "8.19.1" could diminish such that it was significantly smaller, than I'd be happy. That might be a matter of some extra CSS. (When CSS was invented, I was told we were supposed to be able to cascade local CSS, but in practice, that has always been difficult) > This is almost like having paragraph numbering as a sort of sub-secti= on > numbering, except that you can see that's not quite the rule (e.g., > x.690 section 8.19.2 has two paragraphs). But I would be fine with t= hat > too. So, in your view, the size metric would then be the number of sections. {I do not support revisiting the decision} =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmB1wjEACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWMigf/cVt3EVH4M8J+wbgJP0bnVTEKqcBt9oQyqA4E/tBQNVfWEnhkOUEZzg0J gGF2cSI0cSYxCTMn5MJMoI9/EvR3lIG/TLP39yuVDMgYkULmjTLdrW7/fl7OupQ4 phs2fRsI6J4lQ8ZW08FAPY/FLS8LAxQRbhcnRBkqic6egaBiy7phJNVTwam5HINp iQHqvRAvjYLdNQkIxeNOl0K3oGBg7xolP3NznUrjRJvYaw8yUGavwzZ874K7YjIu IASqsrFLJVJVv6XygDBX5WyTa7dTgQPg6OAwVNqzg62Bcx8zWMNJdp+5v0yeUVvl hVgYtt+5to4NlydUbeSH0Hnii+eR1w== =R3ok -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Apr 13 09:26:54 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A7D3A1DBE for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:26:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id byETKFEeOvvZ for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from common.elm.relay.mailchannels.net (common.elm.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.212.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59A0B3A1DBC for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:26:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E268421541; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:26:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (100-96-17-216.trex.outbound.svc.cluster.local [100.96.17.216]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 98A2222F07; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:26:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384) by 100.96.17.216 (trex/6.1.1); Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:26:46 +0000 X-MC-Relay: Good X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-White-Hysterical: 34ee5c7c06a43654_1618331206717_2393460346 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1618331206717:2832900016 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1618331206716 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412A58795D; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:26:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=8rEPaJH67dcrK6 t1gKauj2RciqI=; b=V026eJhSNtKVuiHeQMPyFMo+ovPeoZbnOPDIDvCeTGklEW 4rZLfOXS5pHzBd3HshTWOwJiY7EnevDhO/xJNq/fxZfS7fset2nobE0g3TqKjY/k EmDe+/nAkVcafZVSENen8koC+W0k9QpGfm080nmFi7GQ/gIXYkpVebVq3lUiI= Received: from localhost (unknown [24.28.108.183]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87452881C6; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 09:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:26:38 -0500 X-DH-BACKEND: pdx1-sub0-mail-a84 From: Nico Williams To: Michael Richardson Cc: rfc-interest , tools-discuss Message-ID: <20210413162637.GI9612@localhost> References: <20557.1618171860@localhost> <66fd7812-4d2c-bf9d-d4bf-16c501754d7e@gmail.com> <20210412230913.GX9612@localhost> <22936.1618330161@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <22936.1618330161@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] what metric replaces page-count? X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 16:26:53 -0000 On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 12:09:21PM -0400, Michael Richardson wrote: > Nico Williams wrote: > > 8. Basic encoding rules > > ... > > 8.19 Encoding of an object identifier value > > > 8.19.1 The encoding of an object identifier value shall be primitive. > > I personally find this presentation ugly and very disruptive to reading. > If the size of the "8.19.1" could diminish such that it was significantly > smaller, than I'd be happy. That might be a matter of some extra CSS. > (When CSS was invented, I was told we were supposed to be able to cascade > local CSS, but in practice, that has always been difficult) Well, it is somewhat disruptive because the section numbering indents the first paragraph of the untitled section. But the net benefit of this style is that it permits highly specific references, and as an implementor I find that convenient. > > This is almost like having paragraph numbering as a sort of sub-section > > numbering, except that you can see that's not quite the rule (e.g., > > x.690 section 8.19.2 has two paragraphs). But I would be fine with that > > too. > > So, in your view, the size metric would then be the number of sections. For documents written in this style, yes. Generally, no. It has been pointed out to me that "extra CSS" is all I need to get visible paragraph numbering in HTML renderings. A button to make them visible would be a better UI. (Writing CSS is not a UI.) If we want to be able to use paragraph numbering as a short-hand references, I think we'll want to a) standardize on reference form (when not using URIs), like 1.2.3-4, b) have paragraph numbering be visible by default, at least in txt and PDF renderings. I suspect most would find visible paragraph numbering disruptive to reading, so I won't bother proposing that :) The x.690 examples I gave are a bit less extreme than numbering every paragraph, so maybe more acceptable? Nico -- From nobody Tue Apr 13 14:42:03 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1CE3A10F6 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:42:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4relFx8JvA1Q for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6378B3A10F5 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:41:56 +1200 To: Tools Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Recommended new wiki product X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 21:42:02 -0000 Hi All The requirements for a new wiki have been consulted on [1] and it has = been confirmed on today=E2=80=99s call that there are no further = changes. Based on that we can now move to a recommendation for a new = wiki product. There are over a hundred wiki products available and an exhaustive = requirements assessment has not been conducted. Based on the agreed = requirements, the following products have been evaluated and rejected: =E2=80=A2 MediaWiki =E2=80=A2 Markdown only supported by an unmaintained = extension =E2=80=A2 Limited interface customization =E2=80=A2 Limited WYSIWYG editor =E2=80=A2 Confluence =E2=80=A2 Too costly. It might be possible to get a = free license but no guarantee that would always be available. =E2=80=A2 Dokuwiki =E2=80=A2 Uses the file system and not a database. =E2=80=A2 Markdown by default is experimental feature =E2=80=A2 TWiki =E2=80=A2 Will not support Markdown =E2=80=A2 Much more than just a wiki =E2=80=A2 Trac =E2=80=A2 Much more than a wiki product =E2=80=A2 Markdown plugin is unmaintained =E2=80=A2 Significant community hostility The proposed product, that meets all the agreed requirements and meets = them well is: =E2=80=A2 Wiki.js =E2=80=A2 Core Markdown with optional WYSIWYG =E2=80=A2 Core OIDC support =E2=80=A2 Very actively developed and supported with = excellent documentation =E2=80=A2 Designed for containers =E2=80=A2 Core support for code snippets, maths = expressions and diagrams =E2=80=A2 Core support for Git =E2=80=A2 Supports Matomo =E2=80=A2 Themes are weak in comparison to other = products requiring a developer familiar with the NodeJS vue framework. =E2=80=A2 Runs on multiple databases including MySQL and = PostgreSQL though may move to solely support PostgreSQL in the future. Please let me know if you think there is a mistake in the assessment or = there is another product that meets the requirements [1] better. thanks Jay [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/OKPzIqdz79FAdrKcx9SNDG= ysUww/ --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org.= From nobody Tue Apr 20 13:53:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567703A1A09 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:53:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6UIXDv1ljUX for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E12943A1A06 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:53:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6AE4A0C0-79DD-4069-B94F-1B7228EE4F47" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:53:30 +1200 References: To: Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <2BC93164-26B7-4FFC-8129-5FED11901A26@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Recommended new wiki product X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:53:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6AE4A0C0-79DD-4069-B94F-1B7228EE4F47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Just a reminder about this in case anyone was planning to comment but it = got pushed down their stack. Once this is settled we will be moving = ahead with planning the migration. Jay > On 14/04/2021, at 9:41 AM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Hi All >=20 > The requirements for a new wiki have been consulted on [1] and it has = been confirmed on today=E2=80=99s call that there are no further = changes. Based on that we can now move to a recommendation for a new = wiki product. >=20 > There are over a hundred wiki products available and an exhaustive = requirements assessment has not been conducted. Based on the agreed = requirements, the following products have been evaluated and rejected: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 MediaWiki > =E2=80=A2 Markdown only supported by an unmaintained = extension > =E2=80=A2 Limited interface customization > =E2=80=A2 Limited WYSIWYG editor > =E2=80=A2 Confluence > =E2=80=A2 Too costly. It might be possible to get a = free license but no guarantee that would always be available. > =E2=80=A2 Dokuwiki > =E2=80=A2 Uses the file system and not a database. > =E2=80=A2 Markdown by default is experimental feature > =E2=80=A2 TWiki > =E2=80=A2 Will not support Markdown > =E2=80=A2 Much more than just a wiki > =E2=80=A2 Trac > =E2=80=A2 Much more than a wiki product > =E2=80=A2 Markdown plugin is unmaintained > =E2=80=A2 Significant community hostility >=20 > The proposed product, that meets all the agreed requirements and meets = them well is: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Wiki.js > =E2=80=A2 Core Markdown with optional WYSIWYG > =E2=80=A2 Core OIDC support > =E2=80=A2 Very actively developed and supported with = excellent documentation > =E2=80=A2 Designed for containers > =E2=80=A2 Core support for code snippets, maths = expressions and diagrams > =E2=80=A2 Core support for Git > =E2=80=A2 Supports Matomo > =E2=80=A2 Themes are weak in comparison to other = products requiring a developer familiar with the NodeJS vue framework. > =E2=80=A2 Runs on multiple databases including MySQL and = PostgreSQL though may move to solely support PostgreSQL in the future. >=20 > Please let me know if you think there is a mistake in the assessment = or there is another product that meets the requirements [1] better. >=20 > thanks > Jay >=20 >=20 > [1] = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/OKPzIqdz79FAdrKcx9SNDG= ysUww/ >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org. > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_6AE4A0C0-79DD-4069-B94F-1B7228EE4F47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Just = a reminder about this in case anyone was planning to comment but it got = pushed down their stack.  Once this is settled we will be moving = ahead with planning the migration.

Jay

On = 14/04/2021, at 9:41 AM, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

Hi = All

The requirements for a new wiki have = been consulted on [1] and it has been confirmed on today=E2=80=99s call = that there are no further changes.  Based on that we can now move = to a recommendation for a new wiki product.

There are over a hundred wiki products available and an = exhaustive requirements assessment has not been conducted.  Based = on the agreed requirements, the following products have been evaluated = and rejected:

=E2=80=A2 MediaWiki
= = =E2=80=A2 Markdown only supported by an unmaintained extension
= = =E2=80=A2 Limited interface customization
=E2=80=A2 = Limited WYSIWYG editor
=E2=80=A2 Confluence
= = =E2=80=A2 Too costly.  It might be possible to get a free = license but no guarantee that would always be available.
= =E2=80=A2 Dokuwiki
=E2=80=A2 Uses the file system = and not a database.
=E2=80=A2 Markdown by default is = experimental feature
=E2=80=A2 TWiki
=E2=80=A2 = Will not support Markdown
=E2=80=A2 Much more than just a = wiki
=E2=80=A2 Trac
=E2=80=A2 = Much more than a wiki product
=E2=80=A2 Markdown plugin is = unmaintained
=E2=80=A2 Significant community = hostility

The proposed product, that meets = all the agreed requirements and meets them well is:

= =E2=80=A2 Wiki.js
=E2=80=A2 Core Markdown with = optional WYSIWYG
=E2=80=A2 Core OIDC support
= = =E2=80=A2 Very actively developed and supported with excellent = documentation
=E2=80=A2 Designed for = containers
=E2=80=A2 Core support for code = snippets, maths expressions and diagrams
=E2=80=A2 = Core support for Git
=E2=80=A2 Supports Matomo
= = =E2=80=A2 Themes are weak in comparison to other products = requiring a developer familiar with the NodeJS vue framework.
= = =E2=80=A2 Runs on multiple databases including MySQL and = PostgreSQL though may move to solely support PostgreSQL in the = future.

Please let me know if you think = there is a mistake in the assessment or there is another product that = meets the requirements [1] better.

thanks
Jay


[1]  https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/tools-discuss/OKPzIqdz79F= AdrKcx9SNDGysUww/

--
Jay = Daley
IETF Executive Director
jay@ietf.org.
___________________________________________________________
Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org
This list is for = discussion, not for action requests or bug reports.
* = Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: datatracker-project@ietf.org
* Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org
* Report all other = bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org
List info (including = how to Unsubscribe): https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss

-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

= --Apple-Mail=_6AE4A0C0-79DD-4069-B94F-1B7228EE4F47-- From nobody Tue Apr 20 13:59:44 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83B1A3A1A70; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:59:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=bangj.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9xRwYhTHo_Rs; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oj.bangj.com (69-77-154-174.static.skybest.com [69.77.154.174]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43F083A1A81; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 13:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.10.196] (mta-107-13-246-59.nc.rr.com [107.13.246.59]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by oj.bangj.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C07B3122C3; Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:59:34 -0400 (EDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=bangj.com; s=201907; t=1618952374; bh=5GWkB9XMYfdE+yWcGlUzzsKSw4ur1Ij0LbnSu2SPcMg=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=s49sPDJo4lVRgWNr+DYJXkXkBK0a0s30Z+g3JAXgcDrflN1Ib0da6VmITyiiqgjcD qvNGP1xqzMWnJw3GquZRtMObaM8DTeYxXZ7KtWvyDU4Uf35G4VJ0fCdyWbGYvUJe2P Az3EOz3sWxCgcNapep8EvMmFqcMm1SZ8prC7GcrFrrlOBgAs/xl+E8DdZSRpgztBdr tbNvikIq7Z8blBrOPR3H+aXiltZLinijyNQy1ZqWefZGmJa/RwYTm9RmcZHh8+zd2+ 7XTXMmMzGMpZiyCto1zb8xXe7Bc/Us/3fuGb5a7VpXUBqWPa2Hrpkt7bAv1p1sOiJK XCX9rIrVxhhZA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Tom Pusateri In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 16:59:34 -0400 Cc: Tools Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7A473CB2-F49E-465C-834B-E29C9565FB2C@bangj.com> References: To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Recommended new wiki product X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:59:43 -0000 > On Apr 13, 2021, at 5:41 PM, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > Hi All >=20 > The requirements for a new wiki have been consulted on [1] and it has = been confirmed on today=E2=80=99s call that there are no further = changes. Based on that we can now move to a recommendation for a new = wiki product. >=20 > There are over a hundred wiki products available and an exhaustive = requirements assessment has not been conducted. Based on the agreed = requirements, the following products have been evaluated and rejected: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 MediaWiki > =E2=80=A2 Markdown only supported by an unmaintained = extension > =E2=80=A2 Limited interface customization > =E2=80=A2 Limited WYSIWYG editor > =E2=80=A2 Confluence > =E2=80=A2 Too costly. It might be possible to get a = free license but no guarantee that would always be available. > =E2=80=A2 Dokuwiki > =E2=80=A2 Uses the file system and not a database. > =E2=80=A2 Markdown by default is experimental feature > =E2=80=A2 TWiki > =E2=80=A2 Will not support Markdown > =E2=80=A2 Much more than just a wiki > =E2=80=A2 Trac > =E2=80=A2 Much more than a wiki product > =E2=80=A2 Markdown plugin is unmaintained > =E2=80=A2 Significant community hostility >=20 > The proposed product, that meets all the agreed requirements and meets = them well is: >=20 > =E2=80=A2 Wiki.js > =E2=80=A2 Core Markdown with optional WYSIWYG > =E2=80=A2 Core OIDC support > =E2=80=A2 Very actively developed and supported with = excellent documentation > =E2=80=A2 Designed for containers > =E2=80=A2 Core support for code snippets, maths = expressions and diagrams > =E2=80=A2 Core support for Git > =E2=80=A2 Supports Matomo > =E2=80=A2 Themes are weak in comparison to other = products requiring a developer familiar with the NodeJS vue framework. > =E2=80=A2 Runs on multiple databases including MySQL and = PostgreSQL though may move to solely support PostgreSQL in the future. >=20 > Please let me know if you think there is a mistake in the assessment = or there is another product that meets the requirements [1] better. >=20 > thanks > Jay Wiki.js looks like a nice product. The main problem I=E2=80=99ve had = with products like this in the past is getting data out of them when you = switch because you want to replace it or the project has been abandoned. This product uses PostgreSQL in the long term and while the data will be = there, it will likely require some custom programming to get it out for = a migration. My preference has been to use tools that store their data in flat files = to reduce migration problems but as long as we understand this going in = and are prepared to do what is needed to migrate the data or abandon it, = I=E2=80=99m ok with it because I realize we can=E2=80=99t have all the = features we want. Tom From nobody Thu Apr 22 13:44:57 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F3C3A081D for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 13:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IjY-msLAVYH3; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 13:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A75233A0813; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 13:44:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Message-Id: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 08:44:47 +1200 To: RFC Interest Group , Tools Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:44:56 -0000 I am currently supporting the Tools Team PM with planning a replacement = for the existing BibXML service and we have a question about the current = usage. The BibXML service is document under the Citation Libraries = section of=20 http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org and that notes that it is possible to download a collection of BibXML = files by wget, rss, rsync and in zip/tgz files. As far as we are aware = the collections stopped updating in January and we are not aware of = anyone that maintains a separate public repository that pulls from this = one. Consequently we are considering dropping wget/rss/rsync/zip from = the requirements for a replacement service as that would enable us to = make more use of generation on demand for some of the less frequently = used collections. Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by any = of these mechanisms or do you know of anyone that publishes mirrors of = these? Jay --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org From nobody Thu Apr 22 14:35:29 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8883A0E7A; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 14:35:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tjkTv9YoUHt8; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 14:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from EUR04-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr80102.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.8.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 047A93A0E77; 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boundary="gz4TtF47ZbzqYasT6ikXXITKcIYVQQqFm"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Jay Daley , RFC Interest Group , Tools Discussion Message-ID: <664f6af3-4cae-636e-d82e-303990aaa11f@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [rfc-i] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync References: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> --gz4TtF47ZbzqYasT6ikXXITKcIYVQQqFm Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4BD0147F37DAF69EB73F7983" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4BD0147F37DAF69EB73F7983 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 22/04/2021 21:44, Jay Daley wrote: > Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by > any of these mechanisms or do you know of anyone that publishes > mirrors of these? For me: no and no. But answering a different related question as an FYI: I've generally gotten RFC bibtex from [1] and use that for papers written using latex. I make an i-d.bib file using a python script that Elwyn Davies wrote ages ago that does it's stuff based on [2]. My requirement there is to end up with rfcs.bib and i-d.bib files with=20 up-to-date bibtex for all RFCs and I-Ds. Those are v. handy and really increase the probability I reference I-Ds and RFCs and get that right. Cheers, S. [1] https://www.tm.uka.de/~bless/bibrfcindex.html [2] http://www.ietf.org/id/all_id2.txt --------------4BD0147F37DAF69EB73F7983 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh5= Cg8 gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq= 978 CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGu= D/Q 9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4= tNn cejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqB= wV+ 4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir= 1GC YChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWav= ACY Ea7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8D= VQu 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Thu Apr 22 14:37:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993FD3A0EA4; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 14:37:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m2sRVo5xxMOp; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 14:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8ADC3A0EA5; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 14:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.112] (p548dcb12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FR9kV20BhzyVg; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 23:37:38 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 23:37:37 +0200 Cc: RFC Interest Group , Tools Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> To: Jay Daley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 21:37:46 -0000 On 22. Apr 2021, at 22:44, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > I am currently supporting the Tools Team PM with planning a = replacement for the existing BibXML service and we have a question about = the current usage. The BibXML service is document under the Citation = Libraries section of=20 >=20 > http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org >=20 > and that notes that it is possible to download a collection of BibXML = files by wget, rss, rsync and in zip/tgz files. As far as we are aware = the collections stopped updating in January and we are not aware of = anyone that maintains a separate public repository that pulls from this = one. Consequently we are considering dropping wget/rss/rsync/zip from = the requirements for a replacement service as that would enable us to = make more use of generation on demand for some of the less frequently = used collections. >=20 > Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by any = of these mechanisms Yes. (All of them, via rsync, several times per day.) Since the rsync access became less useful for the I-D bibxml, I wrote = (*) a tool kramdown-rfc-cache-i-d-bibxml that is part of the = kramdown-rfc distribution. That gives you a copy of the datatracker bibxml for active I-Ds (1786 of = them right now) that is stale only by an hour or less, in a reasonably = efficient way (except for the first run, usually finishes in a dozen = seconds or so, but does fetch a new copy of an 8 MB file each time). So far there has not been much of a need to do this for RFCs (those = happen less frequently and still seem to be updated in a timely way), = but maybe that is the next step. The other collections are not that useful at all unless you have a local = copy. (DOI and IANA are of course a different game, but IANA does offer rsync = access, too.) > or do you know of anyone that publishes mirrors of these? Since there was the public rsync server, there hasn=E2=80=99t really = been a need (I have a university-internal mirror that is internally = published only). Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) Kudos to Robert Sparks for his help getting this done, and to Russ = Housley for fixing the datatracker limitation that this happened to = uncover. Details about using the tool and why you might want to use it are in = From nobody Thu Apr 22 15:33:28 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E061F3A135E; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:33:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v9YOUii71L18; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 213563A1357; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id cu16so20093322pjb.4; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:33:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=EBv0F1lnBcsq6DJO5foRpfHJ8IS5vI7OT/6P0MJJ2gE=; b=XxF36liwWuLLlDlMCXfTCqqlGa8Rp4f5bqWzTciOAD7+py5xbOnSWYVAPHHJ1ivw+e PiyOFgffndtzLhotliMOEgEFVUtAJF3niHT6dwtcTyfCYirI1KcQI70UPDS0lITGlKcy B23WTxYkENJRPpieb14pX3jwbRMu4g39qdaRMbT6IV0DallTqZYY1xXHFMv0Z7tHimYl 2WiZijXWz8CAsSMgHBgyMjPJ5QuOHDOTqnc+jASGK6tS0m2wWRtFJ0sZ1AMFu8/lOM0/ qDbuWPx4M7N0FnKDJzm3OfCPSkkkdFWgw10SN4/do9wiCmChexInE2LZTUKLM4Yi94gA zmow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject :date:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=EBv0F1lnBcsq6DJO5foRpfHJ8IS5vI7OT/6P0MJJ2gE=; b=Y1AgexQGm/3fW1bIy0OPsg47QhLXyqu9HqTPQ44yQQo7P/zjL3F1T9Djq9ibWgIRvf SzHvnW7pUrmm03oJaGwKWBGkuFnEVDSQNJMgzXLUbfkkd+rKzG2su/oERnj+p7fTvGr/ cZZ5NixE31i4TtW9v6fxsHhrVKV0EvUKvpfHe1H8WH8OLS4NF7hk1R3WgRLaWwrVOt5R P3pTrjCudFz2W5fWD22Q0cYvOc78yC6/28X+trM9B0mCEawxkCEwfxHYKUAb+NFfn20M /hXYvcvZdH9M3dMHdrADRM0V6zGiN7tfsqRrMA2zPF1UCcXLDTAm4WdoOEn9b29Ja3wY fX1w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5334e+lIXtGgJzlfXhpafz+NtJUtzRRoti16UKbxDVDriUxUSmeK 3IO6rEwlJ/l4wM5yAxRGhPUwDGN/bb0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwTyixpWAb56j4tF6tmJgqGiHQxISqdThMKBQHc1QWKQkRpcfqNEvWscTGh/QwE/0YHx6cXAA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:6b43:b029:e6:3d73:e9fb with SMTP id g3-20020a1709026b43b02900e63d73e9fbmr761074plt.37.1619130798179; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TVPC (c-73-158-116-21.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.158.116.21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o62sm2943703pfg.79.2021.04.22.15.33.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Larry Masinter From: Larry Masinter X-Google-Original-From: "Larry Masinter" To: "'Jay Daley'" , "'RFC Interest Group'" , "'Tools Discussion'" References: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:33:15 -0700 Message-ID: <009f01d737c7$7d51a040$77f4e0c0$@acm.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQJPypMDGex0a3q7zvZ56li5ZLmOranP7v5w Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 22:33:27 -0000 Is there a document you are developing for requirements? I've been working with Zotero to unmangle IETF citations (among others). -- https://LarryMasinter.net https://interlisp.org From nobody Thu Apr 22 15:40:26 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAFC53A13DF for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:40:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cxg27wjSL8uy; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C53FC3A13D5; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:40:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_08AC85F2-6262-4EB4-9012-3ABB818129EA" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:40:16 +1200 In-Reply-To: <009f01d737c7$7d51a040$77f4e0c0$@acm.org> Cc: RFC Interest Group , Tools Discussion To: Larry Masinter References: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> <009f01d737c7$7d51a040$77f4e0c0$@acm.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 22:40:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_08AC85F2-6262-4EB4-9012-3ABB818129EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 23/04/2021, at 10:33 AM, Larry Masinter wrote: > > Is there a document you are developing for requirements? I will reply off-list. Jay > I've been working with Zotero to unmangle IETF citations (among others). > -- > https://LarryMasinter.net https://interlisp.org > > -- Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_08AC85F2-6262-4EB4-9012-3ABB818129EA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On 23/04/2021, at 10:33 AM, Larry Masinter <LMM@acm.org> = wrote:

Is there a document you are developing for requirements?

I = will reply off-list.

Jay

I've been working with Zotero to unmangle IETF citations = (among others).
--
https://LarryMasinter.net https://interlisp.org



-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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(for others: ) Cheers, > On 23 Apr 2021, at 6:44 am, Jay Daley wrote: >=20 > I am currently supporting the Tools Team PM with planning a = replacement for the existing BibXML service and we have a question about = the current usage. The BibXML service is document under the Citation = Libraries section of=20 >=20 > http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org >=20 > and that notes that it is possible to download a collection of BibXML = files by wget, rss, rsync and in zip/tgz files. As far as we are aware = the collections stopped updating in January and we are not aware of = anyone that maintains a separate public repository that pulls from this = one. Consequently we are considering dropping wget/rss/rsync/zip from = the requirements for a replacement service as that would enable us to = make more use of generation on demand for some of the less frequently = used collections. >=20 > Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by any = of these mechanisms or do you know of anyone that publishes mirrors of = these? >=20 > Jay >=20 > --=20 > Jay Daley > IETF Executive Director > jay@ietf.org >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rfc-interest mailing list > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Thu Apr 22 19:09:49 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E2B33A20CF; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:09:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q9UUYLBVa07q; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ran.psg.com (ran.psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:8006::18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B5DF3A2104; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=ryuu.rg.net) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lZlGF-0001cV-0q; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:09:39 +0000 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:09:39 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jay Daley Cc: RFC Interest Group , Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> References: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/26.3 Mule/6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:09:47 -0000 > we are not aware of anyone that maintains a separate public repository > that pulls from this one. i do RSY="/usr/bin/rsync -vaHx --delete" $RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml $HOME/refs/rfc $HOME/bin/do-allid #$RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml3 $HOME/refs/id >> Is there a document you are developing for requirements? > I will reply off-list. do we need to sign an nda? what ever happened to open process in the ietf? randy, a second class citizen --- randy@psg.com `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header butchery From nobody Thu Apr 22 19:58:40 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974ED3A2323; 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Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:58:16 +0000 From: Ronald Tse To: Jay Daley , RFC Interest Group , Tools Discussion Thread-Topic: [rfc-i] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync Thread-Index: AQHXN7hiz60dxi6FwEGwwigFVhl9zqrBD/yAgABZlgA= Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:58:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=ribose.com; x-originating-ip: [118.140.121.70] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 092d1065-5627-4465-f938-08d90603a4ae x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HK0PR01MB2898: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8882; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; 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boundary="_000_B7C6795E089347C882B8DE2E90B4A931ribosecom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ribose.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: HK0PR01MB2900.apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 092d1065-5627-4465-f938-08d90603a4ae X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Apr 2021 02:58:16.5545 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: d98a04ff-ef98-489b-b33c-13c23a2e091a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: V59dVocXLWcO0QYCgElulkaquSezH1zX16sUTB8AwP0RJqEK/I75YgNxl9A3+zr+ X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HK0PR01MB2898 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 02:58:39 -0000 --_000_B7C6795E089347C882B8DE2E90B4A931ribosecom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Like Carsten, Metanorma/Relaton syncs this data but to a data mirror: https://github.com/relaton/relaton-data-ietf We maintain this mirror because of speed reasons and outages we have experi= enced with the official service. BibXML files are fetched individually sinc= e the archives stopped updating. Kind regards, Ron _____________________________________ Ronald Tse Ribose Inc. On 23 Apr 2021, at 5:37 AM, Carsten Bormann > wrote: On 22. Apr 2021, at 22:44, Jay Daley > wr= ote: I am currently supporting the Tools Team PM with planning a replacement for= the existing BibXML service and we have a question about the current usage= . The BibXML service is document under the Citation Libraries section of http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org and that notes that it is possible to download a collection of BibXML files= by wget, rss, rsync and in zip/tgz files. As far as we are aware the coll= ections stopped updating in January and we are not aware of anyone that mai= ntains a separate public repository that pulls from this one. Consequently= we are considering dropping wget/rss/rsync/zip from the requirements for a= replacement service as that would enable us to make more use of generation= on demand for some of the less frequently used collections. Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by any of t= hese mechanisms Yes. (All of them, via rsync, several times per day.) _______________________________________________ rfc-interest mailing list rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest --_000_B7C6795E089347C882B8DE2E90B4A931ribosecom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3792156D7FC3CF41B4AF8DBBDE665C4C@apcprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Like Carsten, Metanorma/Relaton syncs this data but to a data mirror:
https://github.com/relaton/relaton-data-ietf

We maintain this mirror because of speed reasons and outage= s we have experienced with the official service. BibXML files are fetched i= ndividually since the archives stopped updating.

Kind regards,
Ron

_____________________________________

Ronald Tse
Ribose Inc.

On 23 Apr 2021, at 5:37 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

On 22. Apr 2021, at 22:44, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:

I am currently supporting the Tools Team PM with planning a replacement for= the existing BibXML service and we have a question about the current usage= .  The BibXML service is document under the Citation Libraries section= of

http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org=

and that notes that it is possible to download a collection of BibXML files= by wget, rss, rsync and in zip/tgz files.  As far as we are aware the= collections stopped updating in January and we are not aware of anyone tha= t maintains a separate public repository that pulls from this one.  Consequently we are considering dropping w= get/rss/rsync/zip from the requirements for a replacement service as that w= ould enable us to make more use of generation on demand for some of the les= s frequently used collections.

Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by any of t= hese mechanisms

Yes.  (All of them, via rsync, several times per day.)

_______________________________________________
rfc-interest mailing list
rfc-interest@rfc-= editor.org
https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest

--_000_B7C6795E089347C882B8DE2E90B4A931ribosecom_-- From nobody Thu Apr 22 20:18:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C31E3A03EE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:18:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kgdAPZygAEEy; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jays-mbp.localdomain (unknown [158.140.230.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A47F73A02BE; Thu, 22 Apr 2021 20:18:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jay Daley Message-Id: <1DF4FE4C-8588-42BB-9706-4FD2C9C87A54@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_33C510FB-7937-4073-9C9D-C93C409E9B7D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 15:18:38 +1200 In-Reply-To: Cc: RFC Interest Group , Tools Discussion To: Randy Bush References: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] [rfc-i] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 03:18:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_33C510FB-7937-4073-9C9D-C93C409E9B7D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 23/04/2021, at 2:09 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 >> we are not aware of anyone that maintains a separate public = repository >> that pulls from this one. >=20 > i do >=20 > RSY=3D"/usr/bin/rsync -vaHx --delete" >=20 > $RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml $HOME/refs/rfc > $HOME/bin/do-allid > #$RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml3 $HOME/refs/id >=20 >>> Is there a document you are developing for requirements? >> I will reply off-list. >=20 > do we need to sign an nda? what ever happened to open process in > the ietf? No NDA but I=E2=80=99m reluctant to discuss the contents of an RFP with = a potential bidder before the RFP is issued so I just wanted to check = that with Larry before sharing them. >=20 > randy, a second class citizen I can=E2=80=99t comment on your citizenship, but if you want to see the = requirements then I am happy to provide them. Jay >=20 > --- > randy@psg.com > `gpg --locate-external-keys --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com` > signatures are back, thanks to dmarc header butchery >=20 --=20 Jay Daley IETF Executive Director jay@ietf.org --Apple-Mail=_33C510FB-7937-4073-9C9D-C93C409E9B7D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On 23/04/2021, at 2:09 PM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> = wrote:

we are not aware of = anyone that maintains a separate public repository
that = pulls from this one.

i do

RSY=3D"/usr/bin/rsync -vaHx --delete"

$RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml = $HOME/refs/rfc
$HOME/bin/do-allid
#$RSY xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org::xml2rfc.bibxml/bibxml3 = $HOME/refs/id

Is there a document you = are developing for requirements?
I will reply = off-list.

do we need to sign = an nda?  what ever happened to open process in
the = ietf?

No NDA but I=E2=80=99m reluctant to discuss the = contents of an RFP with a potential bidder before the RFP is issued so I = just wanted to check that with Larry before sharing them.


randy, a second class citizen

I = can=E2=80=99t comment on your citizenship, but if you want to see the = requirements then I am happy to provide them.

Jay


---
randy@psg.com
`gpg --locate-external-keys = --auto-key-locate wkd randy@psg.com`
signatures are back, = thanks to dmarc header butchery


-- 
Jay Daley
IETF = Executive Director
jay@ietf.org

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Much appreciated. Specref fetches the file at < https://www.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc-index.xml> every hour, so we weren't affected by this issue. Do please feel free to lmk if migrating to a different service would help with maintenance on your side. Best, --tobie On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 2:01 AM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Adding Tobie -- > > Tobie, what does Specref use for IETF specs? > > (for others: ) > > Cheers, > > > > On 23 Apr 2021, at 6:44 am, Jay Daley wrote: > > > > I am currently supporting the Tools Team PM with planning a replacement > for the existing BibXML service and we have a question about the current > usage. The BibXML service is document under the Citation Libraries section > of > > > > http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org > > > > and that notes that it is possible to download a collection of BibXML > files by wget, rss, rsync and in zip/tgz files. As far as we are aware the > collections stopped updating in January and we are not aware of anyone that > maintains a separate public repository that pulls from this one. > Consequently we are considering dropping wget/rss/rsync/zip from the > requirements for a replacement service as that would enable us to make more > use of generation on demand for some of the less frequently used > collections. > > > > Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by any > of these mechanisms or do you know of anyone that publishes mirrors of > these? > > > > Jay > > > > -- > > Jay Daley > > IETF Executive Director > > jay@ietf.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rfc-interest mailing list > > rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > --000000000000cf792c05c09f5c4e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi folks,

Thanks for reaching out to ask about this. Much appreciat= ed.

Specref fetches t= he file at <https://www.rfc-editor.org/in-notes/rfc-index.xml> every hour, so = we weren't affected by this issue.

Do please f= eel free to lmk if migrating=C2=A0to a different service would help with ma= intenance on your side.=C2=A0

Best,

=
--tobie

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 2:01 AM Mark Nottingh= am <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
Adding Tobie --

Tobie, what does Specref use for IETF specs?

(for others: <https://www.specref.org>)

Cheers,


> On 23 Apr 2021, at 6:44 am, Jay Daley <jay@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> I am currently supporting the Tools Team PM with planning a replacemen= t for the existing BibXML service and we have a question about the current = usage.=C2=A0 The BibXML service is document under the Citation Libraries se= ction of
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org
>
> and that notes that it is possible to download a collection of BibXML = files by wget, rss, rsync and in zip/tgz files.=C2=A0 As far as we are awar= e the collections stopped updating in January and we are not aware of anyon= e that maintains a separate public repository that pulls from this one.=C2= =A0 Consequently we are considering dropping wget/rss/rsync/zip from the re= quirements for a replacement service as that would enable us to make more u= se of generation on demand for some of the less frequently used collections= .
>
> Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by any= of these mechanisms or do you know of anyone that publishes mirrors of the= se?
>
> Jay
>
> --
> Jay Daley
> IETF Executive Director
> jay@ietf.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> rfc-i= nterest@rfc-editor.org
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/list= info/rfc-interest

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--000000000000cf792c05c09f5c4e-- From nobody Fri Apr 23 07:44:52 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB2253A0E9E; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:44:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CVDq9yRJXHdi; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F5023A0BAB; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 07:44:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55CC38D8D; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id Qbqjomo6QKnf; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8640838D6E; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFA6560D; Fri, 23 Apr 2021 10:44:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Jay Daley cc: RFC Interest Group , Tools Discussion In-Reply-To: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> References: <1F6EB55A-F26A-4BE4-B8BC-D5BD57DE737A@ietf.org> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6+git; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 26.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Access to BibXML collections by wget/rss/rsync X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 14:44:51 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jay Daley wrote: > Is there anyone out there pulling any of the BibXML collections by any > of these mechanisms or do you know of anyone that publishes mirrors of > these? I was/am using rsync. I was doing this only because of historic cases of t= he entire system being unavailable. I have no interest in continuing, or where my cron job is. (looking... I think that I stopped) =2D- Michael Richardson . o O ( IPv6 I=C3=B8T consulti= ng ) Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAmCC3VcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUYNwgAserj+iXfVEj51tNtr25MC3yn8P6Lkar/dq9+SqAtlFT5uELizTAQxD0c aUy3Yr2QKJDg2Vt8kGDeuPkbDIP3b7LRBsqcZn9muhurUKwm1pPaQSAT+BFJZ7XM cCZMdYWjaXD1px839GHLQlqQAcNCHh1YFnRz+Fs/7jaQEKHQcU9DGwpJOqQ8syt0 jHavxllcG4pFmADkeCqguPXFX8TGTcpIvbE4BdArZRzfA1VTDKCmw/r7QZjLr9zp sHlZDX0l4lU7H+lv7faBGPjq1Z+s9q2eGGzSKW+ZUWujp3229iG/mb6Ulu6A79/Y 8aDyS57woKqzh2KgUG4FVcWTE8qZ2g== =rpgv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Apr 26 13:48:56 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDBE93A2F36 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:48:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-3joxuajQDz for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x62d.google.com (mail-pl1-x62d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EF2A3A2F35 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id b21so1112761plz.0 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:48:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y+wjdPLxCc/gXuQqy1gNxO6kFlyqSmbYK1dC6LjIEIo=; b=gdZpTyQtiCgmN6ZIjs2tbhhcvmpMp0ZOObdo/1PA3zuou/ade0sMkOxx4a9nkUYgA8 AAR5yODot7NynkQ8PQyFhq4IH1/gDtU5fWo0ecfQkeDTnUguKGUNIyRN44o//b9XD0ho 7ppIG7h/0GkiiDPb1RRI8nngfDK8fKMS6nQINOUhZZe5ChpZe9kN4gyVbfJiMb2tQEvq ofGHDr3KsJZzLUdJd/mB7RLuDZsaKPg88UdBTVn7N0QCLkbz8SE3FP91AnLYFqN/R2R5 sEWCSxygJ3g7bQZhN1WypfQ7lbCo7NKSkxVJZSwnrumhFL5hr06TkOl3xVMV3Ou4SG++ yFDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y+wjdPLxCc/gXuQqy1gNxO6kFlyqSmbYK1dC6LjIEIo=; b=h0roRqUjLdIyNWVliEhOfPr9jCxu4je2BWLW5ew96cPzvsjkuP+/SVs2jhURQT9pdl aHV7/7IBqg3KsnBQrAWUplXvQzgtSqzS3thSOU6G2nbnBA9cmtrpdiHv8lc60QaQWXEf rWj2RPRLYNvWAmornR9Tv9HYCgbDh17Ktd8oMqPxSl5nxBo/Zhw8OtplQSVs0YnvNYLz r6jMVAMUlcdOx4QyB0YxPP1r6ohFxed9nfS66V7OSXWO6TyV87lWDWmYyp8YRAu9rNEx xp8h7hb/Zrv0uG3XbYoSQsrzSYjro7RrMp8DKBX6mY6FnHAo7aJIqOpvZYoVyEM3GVwn Lx/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Gkvt7cKss2SSBgZLuEYOD5UdBaEIuaoJMzBnoDQvtMQ2ntQ1L 06sEIgblL2JE+lWKvYtQB3WF5CzUXQwrmA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVXVZ/r3AKQxusQQn3MX0/S1jsmi90XBeE6OJsrysItj+hRw/Ll5jUkgFuZhAFpzSFwNIM2g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7147:: with SMTP id g7mr23037487pjs.225.1619470130791; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.20] ([151.210.131.14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f188sm241255pfg.130.2021.04.26.13.48.49 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:48:50 -0700 (PDT) To: Tools Team Discussion From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:48:46 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 20:48:55 -0000 Hi, One of the authors of draft-ietf-anima-asa-guidelines-00 is Pierre Peloso. In the XML source, he is correctly identified as . However, in https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ietf-anima-asa-guidelines.xml he is identified as . How on earth could such an inversion occur? (The other authors of the same draft are OK.) Is it possible that this bug would occur for any author with the same initial letter for both components? Would we see ? Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Mon Apr 26 13:58:38 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022DF3A2FB1 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:58:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 125mGlaVA2b1 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 934FC3A2FB3 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.112] (p548dcb12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FTcgS6gGPzyXf; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:58:28 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:58:28 +0200 Cc: Tools Team Discussion Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <835FAA2C-B891-4A4A-87A6-7C2F289D7AA7@tzi.org> References: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 20:58:36 -0000 $ curl = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-ietf-anima-asa-guidelines/x= ml Guidelines for Autonomic Service Agents Nokia Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd Nokia This document proposes guidelines for the design of = Autonomic Service Agents for autonomic networks, as a contribution to describing an autonomic ecosystem. It is based on the Autonomic Network Infrastructure outlined in the ANIMA reference model, using the Autonomic Control Plane and the Generic Autonomic Signaling Protocol. Datatracker doesn=E2=80=99t try to parse the name. It seems the advice to switch to datatracker for bibxml3 still stands. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On 26. Apr 2021, at 22:48, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > One of the authors of draft-ietf-anima-asa-guidelines-00 is Pierre = Peloso. In the XML source, he is correctly identified as . However, = in = https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ietf-anima= -asa-guidelines.xml he is identified as . >=20 > How on earth could such an inversion occur? (The other authors of the = same draft are OK.) >=20 > Is it possible that this bug would occur for any author with the same = initial letter for both components? Would we see ? >=20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter >=20 > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list - Tools-discuss@ietf.org > This list is for discussion, not for action requests or bug reports. > * Report datatracker and mailarchive bugs to: = datatracker-project@ietf.org > * Report tools.ietf.org bugs to: webmaster@tools.ietf.org > * Report all other bugs or issues to: ietf-action@ietf.org > List info (including how to Unsubscribe): = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss From nobody Mon Apr 26 20:55:14 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABBB3A1512 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 20:55:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 27 Apr 2021 05:55:03 +0200 To: tools-discuss@ietf.org References: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> <835FAA2C-B891-4A4A-87A6-7C2F289D7AA7@tzi.org> From: Julian Reschke Message-ID: <122c029c-f939-3673-b68b-77fd3803e401@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 05:55:01 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <835FAA2C-B891-4A4A-87A6-7C2F289D7AA7@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:roY2m4mRiBPdyE3Sh3VJQMkcihnqz3clZHPp2NtNRaO1HTzHZhR zFBydM6BOj7JANWa/nYhFX5XGVI3+cE9X3GoefN8ug1WH7GtVTGQ7WNm+zWLbmM12jDhcIo 03PhAywDxGM5fFXYEnlThPsvepgWn4VQKLyEaYxZOc3co+U7K6ZL4EwB+sWSkrVO9ePef6i 6xLqgdCAVHeb4XdIBb3WA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:LmxKG8dS1ok=:it+eT02XArSrref22fcAkJ FYDjEflxd2OaY53PvriaOOVfF0YdtkShdAJ83siYO6l8O2RoK8Mry1nwAUF/r09+MxpjMIXUf HtNaE87sfAQwFzcWmx2JQ6D1NtWEcN95et8+TocwZsAn1Gr/7qL22i/l5KvoO7XwLmHLyE1t3 evJL15mr6V6UgKoH/yxf4tnwx8EvXgzbh+GLBM2voPiNTsnYnskU9BYpFBGNEGNi+sAcwnbq5 yAKqtBSW0DyrfXX9oQdq51p0PyXmFEvMBdtSduHbq/gxTBFJedsvSqf5NkU63iL7PGGI7yBMs dVNcE08ItSzApm1REMEPM4jt+PDk/QhsFrNiTfbVCqp7xz3iJjZdABxw08be8Lew6vpwyaZJm 6NeBiuQCISqc/b2a0dqiHu7mfIFbfXNboGWu23rI3bZoogUae2v8LGLs6Cf/PE1eGpshCtEjn +TAimW6WQw/gDE1kdyP7w8dw0dnaVtpaMcJBcn/YTvO+EnCuv3lQF+eoI5c1GHNVFpW/JUa1Z AlCNB2uCKH4gb+J5h9fvj5s2BYIyAhcAcct3zJOSn0hFv3HKUqM+o3bNiEiVfhXG9lxe7Wnk4 n0pJHzPjaExc+IL3y42FYuj7QSI9UwrVRWBp9DTCAf8zypDDgPjb/pkAn/E4a1xWWlC6DS5qw 4tgsChjR4NNnmmBJM9hpzBg86Qi74hI65pxIrKGmcv/iDKf+pGKMJStXFcb1GpGJxPuLRXHnm 3LQQUewh/YGodu2hXXoJxwSpIw763d82VizYnFfhD61ZPW33+y6lX4/m6O9gRdbE6dcT5uupS mlW+V0FG3CSrHS3B8KlsQN4vg3avogfqGRAFLy+9GQOtxn+qKXspCaiZXoOTiQugRhfCJ5JtD /KqwlLVSGgnMtJomVQFUGqAfML0jcYZHKBwR+2jDz3aQpc8JzDhscRRhywR5Uh+azd8RaWOFx JopjP6GtjN1kuKXaETiyTBepIxBrEKsEslYmmyHqMmYyXbjuily6/qZexwo0TvuE0Xs/Y82DJ i31hjvk4Do2GIhu20SBoBv9oSLvsXdEp2PdCZKqX2HE4nQG2pq7Gq6iN+lxwHqnKqTz/H9188 cNNyTLyeKXTWlEK9rAjBoCSIrJuWwc+bWHnM84V9AN0HMk5L0wzvGqf6duQUKxC9L+YU5vrMO AGL8NNa1+twnzzOrPnXBUQR1HV226S+pxnx7MFxZR22TdUbZNSh1/cXcr6u4X4+4Lb0Eo= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 03:55:13 -0000 Am 26.04.2021 um 22:58 schrieb Carsten Bormann: > $ curl https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-ietf-anima-asa-gui= delines/xml > > > > Guidelines for Autonomic Service Agents > > > > Nokia > > > Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd > > > Nokia > > > > This document proposes guidelines for the design of Autonomic Se= rvice > Agents for autonomic networks, as a contribution to describing an > autonomic ecosystem. It is based on the Autonomic Network > Infrastructure outlined in the ANIMA reference model, using the > Autonomic Control Plane and the Generic Autonomic Signaling Protocol= . > > > > > > > > > Datatracker doesn=E2=80=99t try to parse the name. > It seems the advice to switch to datatracker for bibxml3 still stands. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > ... Yes, but then it means that *xml2rfc* needs to parse the name. I'm pretty sure that there will be edge cases where it doesn't get it right, so it really would be good when datatracker would keep that information, and used that for the generated reference files. Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Apr 26 23:25:47 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6327B3A1135 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 23:25:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WqGH2BQeYL1R for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 23:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B80313A1133 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 23:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.112] (p548dcb12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FTsFv41wWzyXR; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:25:39 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.60.0.2.21\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <122c029c-f939-3673-b68b-77fd3803e401@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:25:39 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <94D3158A-97D7-4874-BFB9-33B294D5B47F@tzi.org> References: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> <835FAA2C-B891-4A4A-87A6-7C2F289D7AA7@tzi.org> <122c029c-f939-3673-b68b-77fd3803e401@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.60.0.2.21) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 06:25:46 -0000 On 27. Apr 2021, at 05:55, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > Yes, but then it means that *xml2rfc* needs to parse the name. I'm > pretty sure that there will be edge cases where it doesn't get it = right, > so it really would be good when datatracker would keep that = information, > and used that for the generated reference files. Indeed. I think people with Spanish names now know better than to use = their full names in fullname=3D=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D, but maybe there is an = example we can find=E2=80=A6 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue Apr 27 07:07:37 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E32A3A0A34 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:07:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vz94KzFFoJri for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BDD13A0A31 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:07:24 -0700 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.57]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 384hadf68w-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:07:24 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1497.2; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:07:24 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.101]) with mapi id 15.00.1497.015; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:07:24 -0400 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Carsten Bormann , Julian Reschke CC: "tools-discuss@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 Thread-Index: AQHXOt2XLhgsDLbJD06+osJ9VNeI8KrHiyIAgAB0YoCAACoXgIAAPfOA Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:07:23 +0000 Message-ID: <9D61439A-AA0E-410F-87E9-E7A93A9BAE91@akamai.com> References: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> <835FAA2C-B891-4A4A-87A6-7C2F289D7AA7@tzi.org> <122c029c-f939-3673-b68b-77fd3803e401@gmx.de> <94D3158A-97D7-4874-BFB9-33B294D5B47F@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <94D3158A-97D7-4874-BFB9-33B294D5B47F@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.48.21041102 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.27.118.139] Content-Type: text/plain; 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.60) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 14:07:36 -0000 PiAgICBJbmRlZWQuICBJIHRoaW5rIHBlb3BsZSB3aXRoIFNwYW5pc2ggbmFtZXMgbm93IGtub3cg YmV0dGVyIHRoYW4gdG8gdXNlIHRoZWlyIGZ1bGwgbmFtZXMgaW4gZnVsbG5hbWU94oCc4oCdLCBi dXQgbWF5YmUgdGhlcmUgaXMgYW4gZXhhbXBsZSB3ZSBjYW4gZmluZOKApg0KDQpIb3cgd291bGQg dGhleSBrbm93IHRoaXMsIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgc29tZW9uZSBrbmV3IHRvIHRoZSBJRVRGPyAgSXMg dGhhdCBjb21tb24/DQoNCg0K From nobody Tue Apr 27 08:32:21 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA9243A1121 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:32:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cZBruvzrhJ7O for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 458CB3A1119 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FV5NV3XSdzygB; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:32:09 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <9D61439A-AA0E-410F-87E9-E7A93A9BAE91@akamai.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:32:05 +0200 Cc: Julian Reschke , "tools-discuss@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 641230325.3042099-f00a95b6fae7c4b8a3cf9e57c1131bea Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> <835FAA2C-B891-4A4A-87A6-7C2F289D7AA7@tzi.org> <122c029c-f939-3673-b68b-77fd3803e401@gmx.de> <94D3158A-97D7-4874-BFB9-33B294D5B47F@tzi.org> <9D61439A-AA0E-410F-87E9-E7A93A9BAE91@akamai.com> To: "Salz, Rich" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:32:20 -0000 On 2021-04-27, at 16:07, Salz, Rich wrote: >=20 >> Indeed. I think people with Spanish names now know better than to = use their full names in fullname=3D=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D, but maybe there = is an example we can find=E2=80=A6 >=20 > How would they know this, especially someone knew to the IETF? Is = that common? I think most people with Spanish names that run around in = English-speaking circles do know that Gringos (*) don=E2=80=99t grok = their names. When it actually comes to filling in fullname attributes of author = elements, most people will actually look at the result (in particular if = they know that their names are not well understood in other parts of the = world) and adapt. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten (*) grin=C2=B7go| =CB=88=C9=A1r=C9=AA=C5=8B=C9=A1o=CA=8A |=20 noun (plural gringos) derogatory or humorous=20 Please apply the humorous sense today. 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spf=${SPFResult} (sender IP is 184.51.33.19) smtp.mailfrom=rsalz@akamai.com smtp.helo=prod-mail-ppoint2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:36:31 -0000 PiAgIEkgdGhpbmsgbW9zdCBwZW9wbGUgd2l0aCBTcGFuaXNoIG5hbWVzIHRoYXQgcnVuIGFyb3Vu ZCBpbiBFbmdsaXNoLXNwZWFraW5nIGNpcmNsZXMgZG8ga25vdyB0aGF0IEdyaW5nb3MgKCopIGRv buKAmXQgZ3JvayB0aGVpciBuYW1lcy4NCg0KR3JhY2lhcy4gIFN1Y2ggbXV5IGdyaW5nby4NCg0K KEFuZCB0aGF0J3MgYWJvdXQgdGhlIGV4dGVudCBvZiB3aGF0IEkgcmVtZW1iZXIgZnJvbSBoaWdo IHNjaG9vbCBTcGFuaXNoLikNCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Apr 27 08:45:35 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 602F83A11C8 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:45:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.219 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.219 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xsIJqUe_5zma for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B50E3A1143 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 08:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.118] (p548dcb12.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.141.203.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FV5gn4nKPzyTT; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:45:25 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.4\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <122c029c-f939-3673-b68b-77fd3803e401@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:45:18 +0200 Cc: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 641231118.5659519-bd8a064138be3c71a2fa338b3ed8a8c9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4AF8DBA2-83CE-44C4-89E3-023A54F7E681@tzi.org> References: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> <835FAA2C-B891-4A4A-87A6-7C2F289D7AA7@tzi.org> <122c029c-f939-3673-b68b-77fd3803e401@gmx.de> To: Julian Reschke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 15:45:33 -0000 On 2021-04-27, at 05:55, Julian Reschke wrote: >=20 > it really would be good when datatracker would keep that information, It seems to do that at least in some cases where it is important (e.g., = Peter Van der Stok), but not in others (input was ). Hmm. Note that tools.ietf.org has for the latter case, which is just slightly wronger. (No comment about the spurious &qout;s.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten $ curl = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-anima-constrained-join-prox= y-00.xml Constrained Join Proxy for Bootstrapping Protocols Sandelman Software Works vanderstok consultancy Cisco Systems This document defines a protocol to securely assign a = pledge to a domain, represented by an EST server, using an intermediary node between pledge and EST server. This intermediary node is known as a "constrained Join Proxy". This document extends the work of [I-D.ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra] by replacing the Circuit- proxy by a stateless/stateful constrained (CoAP) Join Proxy. It transports join traffic from the pledge to the Registrar without requiring per-client state. $ curl = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/bibxml3/draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push-00.x= ml Subscribing to YANG datastore push updates This document defines a subscription and push mechanism = for YANG datastores. This mechanism allows client applications to request updates from a YANG datastore, which are then pushed by the server to the client per a subscription policy, without requiring additional client requests. From nobody Tue Apr 27 09:34:01 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD47A3A15F5 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:33:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.4, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OXNdxXTsEzaE for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.proper.com (Opus1.Proper.COM [207.182.41.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 427BC3A15F0 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.32.60.48] (76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.proper.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 13RGYCAZ031976 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:34:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.proper.com: Host 76-209-242-70.lightspeed.mtryca.sbcglobal.net [76.209.242.70] claimed to be [10.32.60.48] From: "Paul Hoffman" To: tools-discuss@ietf.org Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:33:54 -0700 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.2r5673) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4AF8DBA2-83CE-44C4-89E3-023A54F7E681@tzi.org> References: <025cc1ca-58eb-e4b0-7c88-f483a9f7355a@gmail.com> <835FAA2C-B891-4A4A-87A6-7C2F289D7AA7@tzi.org> <122c029c-f939-3673-b68b-77fd3803e401@gmx.de> <4AF8DBA2-83CE-44C4-89E3-023A54F7E681@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Bizarre error in bibxml3 X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 16:34:00 -0000 During the discussions that led to XMLv3, I proposed that we get rid of the "initials" field altogether and only use full names or surnames. Using initials is a historic academic format created by people who didn't care about names that don't easily have clear initials. My proposal failed, and yet we still have the same problems. I would be happy to again suggest that Internet Drafts and RFCs refer to authors by their actual names, not forced into a construct that is trivially shown to hamper both understanding while reading and searchability of our documents. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Fri Apr 30 10:43:10 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: tools-discuss@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101EF3A20DB for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 10:43:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=att.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ndh4g1iFX8iH for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 10:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEBA83A20E1 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 2021 10:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049295.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DM6PR02MB6924.namprd02.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8f5521f1-1107-4caa-c2f4-08d90bff5d11 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Apr 2021 17:42:45.3745 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: e741d71c-c6b6-47b0-803c-0f3b32b07556 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: nZAIJznejzz2xfo6VbjykVxR/cviaGkSkGROEWySeBDC70wWes8DmR+DPt3Y9vRL X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR02MB6921 X-OriginatorOrg: att.com X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 6B62221FFBED651BC2A4FEB499202812E39939C0F3B65238DB076B0C0F4915042 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: tgwW63nTZRUwo5D3nlqs476buHazoEDV X-Proofpoint-GUID: tgwW63nTZRUwo5D3nlqs476buHazoEDV X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.391, 18.0.761 definitions=2021-04-30_11:2021-04-30, 2021-04-30 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2104060000 definitions=main-2104300116 Archived-At: Subject: [Tools-discuss] Using Martin's tools and GH workflows (was Request to retain kramdown compiler and author stats) X-BeenThere: tools-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2021 17:43:09 -0000 > On Thu, Mar 11, 2021, at 02:07, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > > I found the instructions for how to set this up to be something I > > couldn't figure out. They seem to assume a level of knowledge I don't > > currently possess. >=20 > Happy to walk anyone through what it might take to get started here. I w= ould > take that as an opportunity to improve the documentation, which I will co= ncede > does assume a degree of familiarity with some of the tools. It's been a while since this discussion, but I thought I'd provide an updat= e. I was starting a new ID so I decided to try all this afresh. My experience was delightful (really). Everything worked perfectly. I'm ver= y happy. The one thing I would suggest is it might be useful to recommend people upd= ate all their installed "necessary software" whenever creating a new repo. = And provide the syntax to do this. E.g., sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get upgrade sudo pip3 install --upgrade xml2rfc sudo gem update kramdown-rfc2629 I did think to do this, but had to look up the syntax for pip and gem updat= es. Which means some people probably wouldn't think to do this. Thx, Barbara